{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":15.548,"body":"Today podcast, we're talking"},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":15.548,"body":"about the illusion of control."},{"startTime":15.598,"endTime":17.908,"body":"Ooh, ignore the man behind the curtain."},{"startTime":17.918,"endTime":20.278,"body":"Why do I say the illusion of control?"},{"startTime":20.288,"endTime":21.548,"body":"Let's, let's start there."},{"startTime":21.888,"endTime":23.088,"body":"It should, it should be easy."},{"startTime":23.098,"endTime":25.418,"body":"This is going to be a dark magic podcast."},{"startTime":27.028,"endTime":30.087,"body":"Is that because the feeling like you're"},{"startTime":27.028,"endTime":30.087,"body":"in control is an illusion in and of"},{"startTime":30.088,"endTime":31.648,"body":"itself because there is no real control."},{"startTime":31.768,"endTime":35.008,"body":"It's an illusion because you think"},{"startTime":31.768,"endTime":35.008,"body":"you're in control, but you're really not."},{"startTime":35.158,"endTime":39.017,"body":"Everyone around you who's working"},{"startTime":35.158,"endTime":39.017,"body":"for you inside the company knows."},{"startTime":39.167,"endTime":42.517,"body":"That you don't really you're just"},{"startTime":39.167,"endTime":42.517,"body":"fighting to feel like you're in control"},{"startTime":42.517,"endTime":45.547,"body":"and everyone else at the company"},{"startTime":42.517,"endTime":45.547,"body":"knows that you really have no control."},{"startTime":45.547,"endTime":46.617,"body":"So they don't say anything."},{"startTime":46.627,"endTime":47.947,"body":"Who are you just fooling yourself?"},{"startTime":47.947,"endTime":51.377,"body":"Is that, is that the Yeah, I mean,"},{"startTime":47.947,"endTime":51.377,"body":"the bar is pretty low right there."},{"startTime":51.617,"endTime":56.057,"body":"You're fooling yourself, but those"},{"startTime":51.617,"endTime":56.057,"body":"around you aren't going to say anything."},{"startTime":56.387,"endTime":58.057,"body":"We're going to explore"},{"startTime":56.387,"endTime":58.057,"body":"that a little bit deeper."},{"startTime":58.077,"endTime":59.067,"body":"Alright, hit the music."},{"startTime":59.107,"endTime":59.767,"body":"Oh, it's too late."},{"startTime":59.827,"endTime":63.167,"body":"So like, let's get the"},{"startTime":59.827,"endTime":63.167,"body":"trite point out of the way."},{"startTime":63.167,"endTime":63.207,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":63.357,"endTime":66.317,"body":"Which is, this is the way it's"},{"startTime":63.357,"endTime":66.317,"body":"always been done in companies."},{"startTime":66.467,"endTime":69.397,"body":"When you read books about like Marty"},{"startTime":66.467,"endTime":69.397,"body":"Cagan, where he's like, Oh, come up"},{"startTime":69.397,"endTime":72.817,"body":"with your intuition and find your"},{"startTime":69.397,"endTime":72.817,"body":"way towards a signal and to change"},{"startTime":72.817,"endTime":75.317,"body":"things if they're not working and be"},{"startTime":72.817,"endTime":75.317,"body":"evidence based and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":75.467,"endTime":78.217,"body":"Most people look at that and they say,"},{"startTime":75.467,"endTime":78.217,"body":"yeah, but I'm in a feature factory."},{"startTime":78.217,"endTime":80.817,"body":"So like, that's, that's great"},{"startTime":78.217,"endTime":80.817,"body":"advice, but that doesn't apply to me."},{"startTime":80.967,"endTime":82.267,"body":"You know, Marty Cagan won't work here."},{"startTime":82.327,"endTime":82.737,"body":"I haven't said that."},{"startTime":82.737,"endTime":83.107,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":83.267,"endTime":84.387,"body":"Marty Cagan won't work here."},{"startTime":84.407,"endTime":86.397,"body":"I mean, a lot of times"},{"startTime":84.407,"endTime":86.397,"body":"people say exactly that."},{"startTime":86.407,"endTime":88.257,"body":"And you say, well, that doesn't"},{"startTime":86.407,"endTime":88.257,"body":"work here because we're special."},{"startTime":88.407,"endTime":89.717,"body":"We're unique, right?"},{"startTime":89.737,"endTime":90.887,"body":"It may work somewhere else."},{"startTime":90.937,"endTime":91.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":91.107,"endTime":92.307,"body":"Cause that industry is easy."},{"startTime":92.317,"endTime":92.887,"body":"We're unique."},{"startTime":92.937,"endTime":94.117,"body":"Tim tells us what to do."},{"startTime":94.147,"endTime":95.337,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":95.357,"endTime":96.187,"body":"We follow Tim."},{"startTime":96.197,"endTime":96.347,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":96.347,"endTime":96.747,"body":"Thanks, Tim."},{"startTime":96.897,"endTime":99.027,"body":". He was Gary's understudy."},{"startTime":99.027,"endTime":101.687,"body":"the historical inertia here of"},{"startTime":99.027,"endTime":101.687,"body":"this is the way it's always been."},{"startTime":101.837,"endTime":104.307,"body":"this is a good category because when"},{"startTime":101.837,"endTime":104.307,"body":"I go to networking events, And I hear"},{"startTime":104.307,"endTime":108.287,"body":"people's issues, their issues about"},{"startTime":104.307,"endTime":108.287,"body":"fighting against a system of control."},{"startTime":108.437,"endTime":112.087,"body":"And I'm just, in my brain, like the"},{"startTime":108.437,"endTime":112.087,"body":"quiet part in my brain is like, good"},{"startTime":112.087,"endTime":115.277,"body":"luck beating your head against that,"},{"startTime":112.087,"endTime":115.277,"body":"like the dislodging or loosening in"},{"startTime":115.277,"endTime":118.857,"body":"any way, shape or form that system"},{"startTime":115.277,"endTime":118.857,"body":"that has cemented itself in place."},{"startTime":119.007,"endTime":121.547,"body":"Often you hear that"},{"startTime":119.007,"endTime":121.547,"body":"idiom, moving the needle."},{"startTime":121.697,"endTime":123.267,"body":"This is embedded in concrete."},{"startTime":123.397,"endTime":124.447,"body":"I'm going to move this needle."},{"startTime":124.597,"endTime":126.417,"body":"So why do companies do this, right?"},{"startTime":126.467,"endTime":129.617,"body":"Why do people do this in companies"},{"startTime":126.467,"endTime":129.617,"body":"and say, we're going to do this"},{"startTime":129.657,"endTime":130.987,"body":"because we've always done it that way."},{"startTime":131.197,"endTime":132.837,"body":"I mean, there's a certain"},{"startTime":131.197,"endTime":132.837,"body":"amount of safety there."},{"startTime":132.987,"endTime":135.237,"body":"not really doing anything that's risky."},{"startTime":135.387,"endTime":137.597,"body":"So maybe It's a hand"},{"startTime":135.387,"endTime":137.597,"body":"me down type of thing."},{"startTime":137.607,"endTime":140.417,"body":"You come in and people say,"},{"startTime":137.607,"endTime":140.417,"body":"that's how it's done around here."},{"startTime":140.517,"endTime":141.827,"body":"and so that's what you do."},{"startTime":141.877,"endTime":144.187,"body":"And then before you know it,"},{"startTime":141.877,"endTime":144.187,"body":"you're turning around and saying"},{"startTime":144.227,"endTime":146.231,"body":"the same thing to the newcomers."},{"startTime":146.231,"endTime":146.981,"body":"Into your company."},{"startTime":147.131,"endTime":147.321,"body":"And."},{"startTime":147.471,"endTime":147.891,"body":"Bingo!"},{"startTime":147.931,"endTime":150.761,"body":"Now that's how your culture"},{"startTime":147.931,"endTime":150.761,"body":"is instilled over time."},{"startTime":150.911,"endTime":153.651,"body":"Yeah, like this has got me thinking"},{"startTime":150.911,"endTime":153.651,"body":"about regression to the mean, which"},{"startTime":153.651,"endTime":156.071,"body":"I was saving for another podcast,"},{"startTime":153.651,"endTime":156.071,"body":"regression to the mean, but this is"},{"startTime":156.071,"endTime":160.601,"body":"like lowering the bar, like lowering"},{"startTime":156.071,"endTime":160.601,"body":"the IQ bar of the organization by saying"},{"startTime":160.601,"endTime":165.021,"body":"like Hey like it's people thinking"},{"startTime":160.601,"endTime":165.021,"body":"critically for themselves and, and"},{"startTime":165.021,"endTime":167.721,"body":"people trying small risks or small bets."},{"startTime":167.921,"endTime":169.391,"body":"Like that's not, that's not our way."},{"startTime":169.421,"endTime":170.611,"body":"Like don't, don't do that, kid."},{"startTime":170.961,"endTime":172.551,"body":"You know, this is not"},{"startTime":170.961,"endTime":172.551,"body":"the business for that."},{"startTime":172.561,"endTime":173.511,"body":"Just do what you're told."},{"startTime":173.661,"endTime":177.321,"body":"Yeah, we know best this is how, this"},{"startTime":173.661,"endTime":177.321,"body":"is how we do things around here yeah."},{"startTime":177.321,"endTime":177.991,"body":"The bar is low."},{"startTime":178.001,"endTime":180.471,"body":"Nobody likes a low bar"},{"startTime":178.001,"endTime":180.471,"body":"except maybe limbo dancers."},{"startTime":180.471,"endTime":183.581,"body":"I mean, risk aversion cause that's"},{"startTime":180.471,"endTime":183.581,"body":"kind of what we're talking about now."},{"startTime":183.611,"endTime":183.951,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":183.981,"endTime":188.991,"body":"I think the only people that risk"},{"startTime":183.981,"endTime":188.991,"body":"aversion helps are the executives"},{"startTime":188.991,"endTime":191.891,"body":"that are left after they lay everybody"},{"startTime":188.991,"endTime":191.891,"body":"off, so after they lay everybody"},{"startTime":191.891,"endTime":195.521,"body":"off, it's the executives, but then"},{"startTime":191.891,"endTime":195.521,"body":"those that around them just say,"},{"startTime":195.571,"endTime":197.631,"body":"yes, sir, we'll do it that way."},{"startTime":197.631,"endTime":200.671,"body":"The yes, men and women that"},{"startTime":197.631,"endTime":200.671,"body":"stay because the executives"},{"startTime":200.671,"endTime":202.291,"body":"need people to do something."},{"startTime":202.441,"endTime":204.481,"body":"So they keep people like them around."},{"startTime":204.631,"endTime":205.881,"body":"They think like themselves."},{"startTime":206.031,"endTime":207.251,"body":"They act like themselves."},{"startTime":207.401,"endTime":209.566,"body":"And before you know it,"},{"startTime":207.401,"endTime":209.566,"body":"everybody else who's."},{"startTime":209.876,"endTime":213.796,"body":"You know, maybe a little different"},{"startTime":209.876,"endTime":213.796,"body":"thinking outside the box thinking"},{"startTime":213.846,"endTime":215.576,"body":"maybe in no boxes at all."},{"startTime":215.726,"endTime":219.766,"body":"They're gone Yeah Oh, man, you didn't"},{"startTime":215.726,"endTime":219.766,"body":"even, mention look like themselves"},{"startTime":219.786,"endTime":220.936,"body":"because that's most executives."},{"startTime":220.936,"endTime":221.526,"body":"That's also true."},{"startTime":221.566,"endTime":222.496,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":222.496,"endTime":224.286,"body":"Yeah,  check me internet on that one."},{"startTime":224.306,"endTime":227.056,"body":"Go look up VC and people"},{"startTime":224.306,"endTime":227.056,"body":"that fund companies."},{"startTime":227.056,"endTime":230.106,"body":"So the executives that are left over"},{"startTime":227.056,"endTime":230.106,"body":"after these layoffs and whatnot, like"},{"startTime":230.106,"endTime":233.896,"body":"the, the, the people that are prone,"},{"startTime":230.106,"endTime":233.896,"body":"they're, they're averse to risk."},{"startTime":234.046,"endTime":235.526,"body":"They're averse to innovation."},{"startTime":235.556,"endTime":238.546,"body":"Basically, if you're averse to risk,"},{"startTime":235.556,"endTime":238.546,"body":"you're not going to innovate so their"},{"startTime":238.556,"endTime":241.126,"body":"whole business is at risk basically."},{"startTime":241.276,"endTime":243.596,"body":"So I'm wondering about this"},{"startTime":241.276,"endTime":243.596,"body":"category, like risk aversion."},{"startTime":243.596,"endTime":247.206,"body":"Like how can I think of the biggest of"},{"startTime":243.596,"endTime":247.206,"body":"big companies out there that are like"},{"startTime":247.206,"endTime":250.596,"body":"so paralyzed, I can't make decisions"},{"startTime":247.206,"endTime":250.596,"body":"or it takes months and months to"},{"startTime":250.596,"endTime":251.706,"body":"make decisions, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":251.746,"endTime":256.106,"body":"lately these kinds of organizations"},{"startTime":251.746,"endTime":256.106,"body":"have been leapfrogged by really"},{"startTime":256.106,"endTime":258.636,"body":"small lithe, nimble if you like."},{"startTime":258.786,"endTime":262.746,"body":"and the potential in the market"},{"startTime":258.786,"endTime":262.746,"body":"is the same for both companies."},{"startTime":262.756,"endTime":266.856,"body":"It's just that one is so mired in the"},{"startTime":262.756,"endTime":266.856,"body":"old way of thinking avoiding risks."},{"startTime":267.161,"endTime":268.501,"body":"Basically having the blinkers on."},{"startTime":268.501,"endTime":269.271,"body":"This is all there is."},{"startTime":269.271,"endTime":270.131,"body":"This is how we work."},{"startTime":270.241,"endTime":271.221,"body":"That's work for us."},{"startTime":271.371,"endTime":273.611,"body":"Anything outside is just dismissed."},{"startTime":273.681,"endTime":279.711,"body":"I think about, I'm trying to make a"},{"startTime":273.681,"endTime":279.711,"body":"comparison to people that are risk averse."},{"startTime":279.861,"endTime":281.691,"body":"Like this is part of their identity."},{"startTime":281.841,"endTime":285.361,"body":"Oh, I'm not going to take wild"},{"startTime":281.841,"endTime":285.361,"body":"risks or bets or whatever."},{"startTime":285.511,"endTime":287.901,"body":"Not understanding the difference"},{"startTime":285.511,"endTime":287.901,"body":"between a gamble and a bet."},{"startTime":288.051,"endTime":290.401,"body":"In business I think of the"},{"startTime":288.051,"endTime":290.401,"body":"same categories, like there's"},{"startTime":290.411,"endTime":294.531,"body":"organizations that their identity"},{"startTime":290.411,"endTime":294.531,"body":"is that they're just overly cautious"},{"startTime":294.681,"endTime":295.911,"body":"I can think of a legitimate case."},{"startTime":295.911,"endTime":297.911,"body":"Utilities are overly cautious."},{"startTime":297.991,"endTime":300.741,"body":"I mean, they're in their pace of"},{"startTime":297.991,"endTime":300.741,"body":"innovations are very, very regular."},{"startTime":300.741,"endTime":301.661,"body":"The industry is falling."},{"startTime":302.001,"endTime":302.211,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":302.421,"endTime":302.661,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":302.691,"endTime":302.851,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":302.901,"endTime":304.711,"body":"because they're like turning a profit."},{"startTime":304.861,"endTime":306.481,"body":"make the next big innovation breakthrough."},{"startTime":306.481,"endTime":307.991,"body":"Or whatever, that's"},{"startTime":306.481,"endTime":307.991,"body":"not their top priority."},{"startTime":308.021,"endTime":310.281,"body":"Their top priority is"},{"startTime":308.021,"endTime":310.281,"body":"to keep the lights on."},{"startTime":310.281,"endTime":310.451,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":310.451,"endTime":313.011,"body":"Keep the lights on quite"},{"startTime":310.451,"endTime":313.011,"body":"literally electric delivery."},{"startTime":313.161,"endTime":315.691,"body":"And you know, you do that by making"},{"startTime":313.161,"endTime":315.691,"body":"sure everyone's safe and not having"},{"startTime":315.691,"endTime":317.151,"body":"any accidents, and you do that by."},{"startTime":317.361,"endTime":320.101,"body":"Playing it safe, basically, there's"},{"startTime":317.361,"endTime":320.101,"body":"something you said for that."},{"startTime":320.111,"endTime":323.341,"body":"But I mean, if you really"},{"startTime":320.111,"endTime":323.341,"body":"dig deeper, you'll find that"},{"startTime":323.351,"endTime":324.621,"body":"they still need to innovate."},{"startTime":324.931,"endTime":326.411,"body":"They still need to experiment."},{"startTime":326.481,"endTime":328.971,"body":"And so there's a certain"},{"startTime":326.481,"endTime":328.971,"body":"level of risk aversion."},{"startTime":328.971,"endTime":332.901,"body":"So that's understandable, but to be"},{"startTime":328.971,"endTime":332.901,"body":"risk averse completely, they may not"},{"startTime":332.901,"endTime":336.451,"body":"have, they have a monopoly now, but"},{"startTime":332.901,"endTime":336.451,"body":"that's not a guarantee going forward."},{"startTime":336.491,"endTime":337.741,"body":"there's a, I'm reading a book."},{"startTime":337.851,"endTime":338.781,"body":"I wasn't going to bring it up now."},{"startTime":338.791,"endTime":341.211,"body":"I was going to do a whole podcast"},{"startTime":338.791,"endTime":341.211,"body":"on it, But the book, it's actually,"},{"startTime":341.211,"endTime":342.341,"body":"it's a quite excellent book."},{"startTime":342.341,"endTime":343.231,"body":"It's called."},{"startTime":343.421,"endTime":345.381,"body":"Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke."},{"startTime":345.531,"endTime":350.521,"body":"It's actually a really interesting book"},{"startTime":345.531,"endTime":350.521,"body":"from the perspective of poker players."},{"startTime":350.671,"endTime":353.201,"body":"And how they have to make quick decisions."},{"startTime":353.481,"endTime":355.331,"body":"With the information they"},{"startTime":353.481,"endTime":355.331,"body":"have available to them."},{"startTime":355.481,"endTime":356.161,"body":"hence the name of the book"},{"startTime":356.161,"endTime":360.071,"body":"oh, because in the thinking of the"},{"startTime":356.161,"endTime":360.071,"body":"thinking in bets book, she gives the"},{"startTime":360.071,"endTime":363.021,"body":"idea, she gives the concept of Well,"},{"startTime":360.071,"endTime":363.021,"body":"it might not be this book, actually."},{"startTime":363.171,"endTime":366.131,"body":"I heard recently the concept of"},{"startTime":363.171,"endTime":366.131,"body":"like, you own a plumbing company and"},{"startTime":366.131,"endTime":367.891,"body":"you have ten plumbers, for example."},{"startTime":368.191,"endTime":372.471,"body":"And you all ten of the plumbers are"},{"startTime":368.191,"endTime":372.471,"body":"gonna take, let's say they work forty"},{"startTime":372.471,"endTime":374.681,"body":"hours a week, They're gonna take"},{"startTime":372.471,"endTime":374.681,"body":"four hours of their time in the week."},{"startTime":374.831,"endTime":378.251,"body":"To just innovate, try different"},{"startTime":374.831,"endTime":378.251,"body":"things that completely out of"},{"startTime":378.251,"endTime":381.371,"body":"the realm of what they normally"},{"startTime":378.251,"endTime":381.371,"body":"would do just to see what happens"},{"startTime":381.371,"endTime":384.091,"body":"You give them a certain amount"},{"startTime":381.371,"endTime":384.091,"body":"of time to try different things"},{"startTime":384.091,"endTime":385.561,"body":"and what they try is up to them."},{"startTime":385.711,"endTime":389.261,"body":"If nobody comes back with any good"},{"startTime":385.711,"endTime":389.261,"body":"ideas Hey, I tried something different"},{"startTime":389.471,"endTime":393.401,"body":"in my four hours and nobody comes"},{"startTime":389.471,"endTime":393.401,"body":"back with any new ideas, any new"},{"startTime":393.401,"endTime":394.711,"body":"practices, anything they tried."},{"startTime":394.861,"endTime":395.151,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":395.151,"endTime":398.131,"body":"Well you lost there's a"},{"startTime":395.151,"endTime":398.131,"body":"dollar value what you lost."},{"startTime":398.141,"endTime":399.721,"body":"There is, but nobody."},{"startTime":399.871,"endTime":401.881,"body":"So people don't come back with nothing."},{"startTime":402.031,"endTime":402.691,"body":"Oh, right."},{"startTime":402.691,"endTime":404.011,"body":"They come back with some learning."},{"startTime":404.016,"endTime":404.281,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":404.281,"endTime":405.031,"body":"there's some value there."},{"startTime":405.031,"endTime":409.521,"body":"So, so how small does the learning"},{"startTime":405.031,"endTime":409.521,"body":"or the advantage that one plumber"},{"startTime":409.611,"endTime":411.621,"body":"brings back to the group have to be?"},{"startTime":411.901,"endTime":414.811,"body":"you take the thing that that one"},{"startTime":411.901,"endTime":414.811,"body":"plumber learned, you bring it back,"},{"startTime":415.131,"endTime":418.311,"body":"you apply it to the rest of what the"},{"startTime":415.131,"endTime":418.311,"body":"plumbers are doing, How much was that"},{"startTime":418.371,"endTime":422.771,"body":"financially worth to you now that you've"},{"startTime":418.371,"endTime":422.771,"body":"scaled that good practice across all"},{"startTime":422.771,"endTime":426.501,"body":"the plumbers, as opposed to I don't"},{"startTime":422.771,"endTime":426.501,"body":"give any plumbers time to innovate."},{"startTime":426.651,"endTime":429.471,"body":"So if they are innovating, it's on"},{"startTime":426.651,"endTime":429.471,"body":"their own time, or they're sneaking"},{"startTime":429.471,"endTime":430.611,"body":"it in the line about their time."},{"startTime":430.761,"endTime":432.601,"body":"No one's ever done that"},{"startTime":430.761,"endTime":432.601,"body":"in software development."},{"startTime":432.979,"endTime":436.599,"body":"When they fail to make a breakthrough"},{"startTime":432.979,"endTime":436.599,"body":"They're punished for that."},{"startTime":436.749,"endTime":439.309,"body":"and like basically derided"},{"startTime":436.749,"endTime":439.309,"body":"and told not to do it again."},{"startTime":439.409,"endTime":439.739,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":439.889,"endTime":443.189,"body":"So the idea is, well, now you can't"},{"startTime":439.889,"endTime":443.189,"body":"like, now the other plumbers are"},{"startTime":443.189,"endTime":444.329,"body":"not going to spend their time."},{"startTime":444.329,"endTime":448.109,"body":"So you've punished one person for using a"},{"startTime":444.329,"endTime":448.109,"body":"little, what across all your plumbers in"},{"startTime":448.109,"endTime":452.439,"body":"the company is like a real micro amount,"},{"startTime":448.109,"endTime":452.439,"body":"tiny amount of time to innovate, but that"},{"startTime":452.439,"endTime":456.069,"body":"learning, like how much money is bringing"},{"startTime":452.439,"endTime":456.069,"body":"how much money is that learning that"},{"startTime":456.069,"endTime":457.969,"body":"was distributed across all the plumbers."},{"startTime":458.119,"endTime":461.149,"body":"The concept is spreading your failure"},{"startTime":458.119,"endTime":461.149,"body":"across the whole team, as opposed to"},{"startTime":461.169,"endTime":464.329,"body":"like holding one person accountable"},{"startTime":461.169,"endTime":464.329,"body":"to the failure, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":464.329,"endTime":465.889,"body":"Like singling out a person from the team."},{"startTime":466.039,"endTime":469.449,"body":"That's this category like if the risk"},{"startTime":466.039,"endTime":469.449,"body":"aversion category might be a little more"},{"startTime":469.449,"endTime":472.829,"body":"complex about the like the simple things"},{"startTime":469.449,"endTime":472.829,"body":"that we talked about earlier might be"},{"startTime":473.079,"endTime":478.429,"body":"your culture punishes individuals rather"},{"startTime":473.079,"endTime":478.429,"body":"than you know teams or whatever when they"},{"startTime":478.429,"endTime":481.029,"body":"shouldn't be punishing in the first place"},{"startTime":478.429,"endTime":481.029,"body":"they should be trying to say okay you"},{"startTime":481.029,"endTime":484.319,"body":"did this thing is it in the best interest"},{"startTime":481.029,"endTime":484.319,"body":"of the company in the business and if"},{"startTime":484.319,"endTime":488.579,"body":"it is And it turned out where it, what"},{"startTime":484.319,"endTime":488.579,"body":"we're, we don't learn anything from it."},{"startTime":488.589,"endTime":491.109,"body":"We don't have any good,"},{"startTime":488.589,"endTime":491.109,"body":"better practices from it."},{"startTime":491.259,"endTime":491.869,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":491.869,"endTime":494.529,"body":"Cause now we spread that across"},{"startTime":491.869,"endTime":494.529,"body":"everybody in the company."},{"startTime":494.679,"endTime":498.329,"body":"Theoretically, if you think about"},{"startTime":494.679,"endTime":498.329,"body":"it from a, a cost perspective and"},{"startTime":498.329,"endTime":500.909,"body":"it's spreading it across like that,"},{"startTime":498.329,"endTime":500.909,"body":"I mean, you're really talking about."},{"startTime":501.599,"endTime":502.199,"body":"peanuts here."},{"startTime":502.269,"endTime":503.979,"body":"I don't think it's significant, right?"},{"startTime":504.319,"endTime":507.489,"body":"But the benefit aspect of it, you don't"},{"startTime":504.319,"endTime":507.489,"body":"know what they're gonna come up with."},{"startTime":507.509,"endTime":511.109,"body":"It could be a cost saving idea"},{"startTime":507.509,"endTime":511.109,"body":"that that saves cost forever"},{"startTime":511.119,"endTime":512.529,"body":"after that point, right?"},{"startTime":512.679,"endTime":513.889,"body":"So the multiple is there."},{"startTime":514.089,"endTime":518.579,"body":"And this is where some companies realize"},{"startTime":514.089,"endTime":518.579,"body":"this, and they do encourage their"},{"startTime":518.579,"endTime":520.889,"body":"employees to Experiment, basically."},{"startTime":521.089,"endTime":525.009,"body":"There's no guarantee an experiment's"},{"startTime":521.089,"endTime":525.009,"body":"gonna succeed so, but, that's the culture."},{"startTime":525.269,"endTime":529.159,"body":"Unfortunately, that has morphed"},{"startTime":525.269,"endTime":529.159,"body":"into this sort of hackathons and"},{"startTime":529.159,"endTime":530.719,"body":"things like that, that teams do."},{"startTime":530.869,"endTime":532.779,"body":"And it's given a bit"},{"startTime":530.869,"endTime":532.779,"body":"of a, bit of a bad rep."},{"startTime":532.779,"endTime":534.329,"body":"Like a one off type of event?"},{"startTime":534.339,"endTime":534.929,"body":"Is that what you mean?"},{"startTime":535.089,"endTime":538.129,"body":"That, and also just basically,"},{"startTime":535.089,"endTime":538.129,"body":"just check in the box, right?"},{"startTime":538.199,"endTime":539.789,"body":"So, yeah, we do have innovation."},{"startTime":539.789,"endTime":542.909,"body":"We have a hackathon once a quarter,"},{"startTime":539.789,"endTime":542.909,"body":"and everyone's forced to go to that,"},{"startTime":543.059,"endTime":545.709,"body":"I don't know if there's any value"},{"startTime":543.059,"endTime":545.709,"body":"there really because people know"},{"startTime":545.709,"endTime":547.769,"body":"that they're going there because"},{"startTime":545.709,"endTime":547.769,"body":"they've been told to go there."},{"startTime":547.919,"endTime":551.479,"body":"It would be far better to have"},{"startTime":547.919,"endTime":551.479,"body":"a mechanism where they can"},{"startTime":551.629,"endTime":553.519,"body":"collaborate anytime, really,"},{"startTime":553.719,"endTime":556.319,"body":"You have to put guardrails in,"},{"startTime":553.719,"endTime":556.319,"body":"I understand, but that can be"},{"startTime":556.319,"endTime":558.029,"body":"done on a weekly basis, why not?"},{"startTime":558.179,"endTime":562.179,"body":"and that way you are getting"},{"startTime":558.179,"endTime":562.179,"body":"something to the fore much quicker,"},{"startTime":562.229,"endTime":563.569,"body":"You learn something or you fail."},{"startTime":563.569,"endTime":566.209,"body":"That doesn't matter as long as you"},{"startTime":563.569,"endTime":566.209,"body":"learn something from a failure."},{"startTime":566.359,"endTime":566.909,"body":"Move on."},{"startTime":567.109,"endTime":567.879,"body":"List yourself off."},{"startTime":567.879,"endTime":571.189,"body":"Get up and well, I'm trying to"},{"startTime":567.879,"endTime":571.189,"body":"consolidate that with the general,"},{"startTime":571.199,"endTime":574.739,"body":"like the, the control category Fear"},{"startTime":571.199,"endTime":574.739,"body":"of failure is in the control category."},{"startTime":574.759,"endTime":577.959,"body":"That's the, that's the category"},{"startTime":574.759,"endTime":577.959,"body":"and, and in this culture where"},{"startTime":577.999,"endTime":581.089,"body":"there is fear of failure, you're not"},{"startTime":577.999,"endTime":581.089,"body":"going to have experiments going on."},{"startTime":581.299,"endTime":584.729,"body":"No you're not going to have innovative"},{"startTime":581.299,"endTime":584.729,"body":"you know collaborative sessions going on."},{"startTime":584.779,"endTime":588.569,"body":"So risk aversion, fear of failure,"},{"startTime":584.779,"endTime":588.569,"body":"like these two things go together."},{"startTime":588.629,"endTime":593.709,"body":"You know because in a, in a culture"},{"startTime":588.629,"endTime":593.709,"body":"where they stigmatize failure, so in"},{"startTime":593.709,"endTime":596.559,"body":"the plumbing example , the people I"},{"startTime":593.709,"endTime":596.559,"body":"give time to experiment with, like"},{"startTime":596.569,"endTime":599.909,"body":"they're not going to use that time to"},{"startTime":596.569,"endTime":599.909,"body":"experiment anymore once they see one or"},{"startTime":599.909,"endTime":601.419,"body":"two of their co workers get punished."},{"startTime":601.569,"endTime":602.959,"body":"Like that, they're going to not do that."},{"startTime":602.959,"endTime":604.069,"body":"Like they don't want to get punished."},{"startTime":604.354,"endTime":607.894,"body":"You know, and also, they don't see a"},{"startTime":604.354,"endTime":607.894,"body":"dime like the old, where it's, boy,"},{"startTime":607.894,"endTime":611.374,"body":"if I can find an office space clip"},{"startTime":607.894,"endTime":611.374,"body":"and clip into right now if they ship"},{"startTime":611.374,"endTime":614.274,"body":"any extra unit of software, like they"},{"startTime":611.374,"endTime":614.274,"body":"don't see a dime, same thing if they're"},{"startTime":614.284,"endTime":617.494,"body":"better at their job this plumber can"},{"startTime":614.284,"endTime":617.494,"body":"complete the job in half the time as that"},{"startTime":617.494,"endTime":619.439,"body":"plumber, they get paid the same thing."},{"startTime":619.589,"endTime":623.359,"body":"I guess you could say one person's"},{"startTime":619.589,"endTime":623.359,"body":"advantage is they could knock out their"},{"startTime":623.359,"endTime":626.489,"body":"work in four hours as opposed to eight"},{"startTime":623.359,"endTime":626.489,"body":"hours and go home But you know as well"},{"startTime":626.489,"endTime":629.749,"body":"as I do like that That's not the way"},{"startTime":626.489,"endTime":629.749,"body":"corporate america works It's like your"},{"startTime":629.779,"endTime":634.769,"body":"reward for being able to do your job twice"},{"startTime":629.779,"endTime":634.769,"body":"as fast being a 10x developer is more work"},{"startTime":634.769,"endTime":639.044,"body":"10x to work That should have been the book"},{"startTime":634.769,"endTime":639.044,"body":"now, 10, 10 X to work in 10 X the time."},{"startTime":639.194,"endTime":639.394,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":639.394,"endTime":641.964,"body":"So Jeff, if you're listening, this"},{"startTime":639.394,"endTime":641.964,"body":"is the title of your next book."},{"startTime":642.114,"endTime":644.514,"body":"The other part of fear of failure,"},{"startTime":642.114,"endTime":644.514,"body":"where we started this category was"},{"startTime":644.514,"endTime":648.824,"body":"kind of like poo pooing on executives,"},{"startTime":644.514,"endTime":648.824,"body":"where we said like the whole not taking"},{"startTime":648.824,"endTime":652.194,"body":"any risks, not sticking your neck out"},{"startTime":648.824,"endTime":652.194,"body":"kind of being safe and floating around"},{"startTime":652.484,"endTime":657.424,"body":", but yeah, the sunk cost fallacy for"},{"startTime":652.484,"endTime":657.424,"body":"people like that, like the financial"},{"startTime":657.424,"endTime":660.784,"body":"incentive to do nothing or continue"},{"startTime":657.424,"endTime":660.784,"body":"something that obviously is not working."},{"startTime":660.934,"endTime":665.574,"body":"To not pivot, to be the opposite of"},{"startTime":660.934,"endTime":665.574,"body":"business agility, to, to do big plans"},{"startTime":665.574,"endTime":668.914,"body":"that spec, Oh, I need you to sit down and"},{"startTime":665.574,"endTime":668.914,"body":"write epics and stories for this program."},{"startTime":668.924,"endTime":669.814,"body":"Okay, no problem."},{"startTime":669.834,"endTime":671.324,"body":"So like what timeframe"},{"startTime":669.834,"endTime":671.324,"body":"are we talking about?"},{"startTime":671.394,"endTime":673.134,"body":"Oh, I'm thinking about"},{"startTime":671.394,"endTime":673.134,"body":"three and a half years."},{"startTime":673.134,"endTime":675.604,"body":"I want the backlog to be"},{"startTime":673.134,"endTime":675.604,"body":"three and a half years."},{"startTime":675.864,"endTime":676.764,"body":"So it's deep."},{"startTime":676.784,"endTime":677.284,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":677.284,"endTime":677.319,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":677.319,"endTime":678.584,"body":"Deep backlog."},{"startTime":678.654,"endTime":681.154,"body":"That, that, that way we, that'll,"},{"startTime":678.654,"endTime":681.154,"body":"that'll mean we have a strategy."},{"startTime":681.154,"endTime":682.334,"body":"That'll mean success, right?"},{"startTime":682.384,"endTime":683.244,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":683.274,"endTime":686.504,"body":"So this, what you're describing is,"},{"startTime":683.274,"endTime":686.504,"body":"is what I call business rigidity."},{"startTime":686.504,"endTime":686.564,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":686.634,"endTime":688.454,"body":"It's the opposite of"},{"startTime":686.634,"endTime":688.454,"body":"business agility, right?"},{"startTime":688.764,"endTime":691.004,"body":"And there's so much of it out there."},{"startTime":691.154,"endTime":692.024,"body":"So much of it."},{"startTime":692.174,"endTime":694.504,"body":"And part of it is, I know we're"},{"startTime":692.174,"endTime":694.504,"body":"going to get into this too."},{"startTime":694.534,"endTime":696.704,"body":"Part of it is just not"},{"startTime":694.534,"endTime":696.704,"body":"knowing any better, right?"},{"startTime":697.004,"endTime":699.024,"body":"Which brings us back to,"},{"startTime":697.004,"endTime":699.024,"body":"this is how it's always been."},{"startTime":699.174,"endTime":700.024,"body":"We do it this way."},{"startTime":700.274,"endTime":703.244,"body":"It's not that they don't, in some"},{"startTime":700.274,"endTime":703.244,"body":"cases, it's not that they don't"},{"startTime":703.244,"endTime":704.894,"body":"want to do it any other way."},{"startTime":705.124,"endTime":706.674,"body":"They just don't know."},{"startTime":707.174,"endTime":709.234,"body":"Well, I mean, part of"},{"startTime":707.174,"endTime":709.234,"body":"it is how they learned."},{"startTime":709.294,"endTime":713.154,"body":"the other part is their identity how they"},{"startTime":709.294,"endTime":713.154,"body":"see themselves, how they view themselves."},{"startTime":713.154,"endTime":717.804,"body":"I was in a company once where the"},{"startTime":713.154,"endTime":717.804,"body":"program management office controlled"},{"startTime":717.814,"endTime":720.474,"body":"all of the developers, project"},{"startTime":717.814,"endTime":720.474,"body":"managers, all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":720.504,"endTime":725.504,"body":"So you went to the PMO when you wanted"},{"startTime":720.504,"endTime":725.504,"body":"an IT  hardware, software, everything"},{"startTime":725.524,"endTime":727.194,"body":"dealing with technology basically."},{"startTime":727.384,"endTime":728.964,"body":"They were completely project based."},{"startTime":729.004,"endTime":731.974,"body":"they didn't do anything product wise,"},{"startTime":729.004,"endTime":731.974,"body":"the way we think about products,"},{"startTime":732.124,"endTime":735.064,"body":"everything was like spun up temporary"},{"startTime":732.124,"endTime":735.064,"body":"and then spun down and then you had"},{"startTime":735.064,"endTime":738.264,"body":"your team that did maintenance and"},{"startTime":735.064,"endTime":738.264,"body":"kept the lights on and stuff like that."},{"startTime":738.414,"endTime":739.534,"body":"But that was their identity."},{"startTime":739.544,"endTime":743.319,"body":"The people that ran the PMO and the people"},{"startTime":739.544,"endTime":743.319,"body":"that like the executives, That ran that"},{"startTime":743.319,"endTime":748.889,"body":"side of the house, they basically their"},{"startTime":743.319,"endTime":748.889,"body":"view was like agile is a, not really"},{"startTime":748.889,"endTime":753.619,"body":"like a flash in the pan, And like, our"},{"startTime":748.889,"endTime":753.619,"body":"job is to figure out how to connect"},{"startTime":753.779,"endTime":757.649,"body":"the it services, like the very old"},{"startTime":753.779,"endTime":757.649,"body":"school thinking about it services, like"},{"startTime":757.869,"endTime":761.219,"body":"spinning up and creating a development"},{"startTime":757.869,"endTime":761.219,"body":"team to do software and stuff like that."},{"startTime":761.549,"endTime":762.959,"body":"Like that's an it service to them."},{"startTime":763.109,"endTime":766.329,"body":"So their idea was the"},{"startTime":763.109,"endTime":766.329,"body":"businesses, the core."},{"startTime":766.344,"endTime":770.644,"body":"The core of the business is"},{"startTime":766.344,"endTime":770.644,"body":"not information technology."},{"startTime":770.794,"endTime":771.994,"body":"This is the way they would explain it."},{"startTime":772.004,"endTime":775.024,"body":"The core of the business is not"},{"startTime":772.004,"endTime":775.024,"body":"software development and building"},{"startTime":775.024,"endTime":776.264,"body":"products and maintaining products."},{"startTime":776.414,"endTime":778.624,"body":"You know, the core of the"},{"startTime":776.414,"endTime":778.624,"body":"business is something else."},{"startTime":778.634,"endTime":783.044,"body":"But when we need IT things done, We"},{"startTime":778.634,"endTime":783.044,"body":"ship it over here and deal with this"},{"startTime":783.094,"endTime":786.754,"body":"Disgusting work as quickly and efficiently"},{"startTime":783.094,"endTime":786.754,"body":"as possible and then we get back to our"},{"startTime":786.754,"endTime":789.674,"body":"lives and that's basically the way they"},{"startTime":786.754,"endTime":789.674,"body":"treated it that was their identity."},{"startTime":789.674,"endTime":790.944,"body":"They really saw themselves like that."},{"startTime":790.944,"endTime":793.854,"body":"They were like we service the"},{"startTime":790.944,"endTime":793.854,"body":"business We're not trying to tell"},{"startTime":793.854,"endTime":795.064,"body":"them what products they need to build."},{"startTime":795.094,"endTime":797.564,"body":"They tell us what to build"},{"startTime":795.094,"endTime":797.564,"body":"and then we just deliver it"},{"startTime":797.564,"endTime":798.584,"body":"as efficiently as possible."},{"startTime":798.864,"endTime":799.404,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":799.424,"endTime":802.414,"body":"And time to market and phrases like"},{"startTime":799.424,"endTime":802.414,"body":"that are just not in their vocabulary."},{"startTime":802.414,"endTime":803.424,"body":"It's not how they're measured either."},{"startTime":803.424,"endTime":804.144,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":804.164,"endTime":804.694,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":804.904,"endTime":810.359,"body":"So so compare and contrast that"},{"startTime":804.904,"endTime":810.359,"body":"to a culture where it is really"},{"startTime":810.359,"endTime":812.674,"body":"partnered with the business, and I."},{"startTime":812.944,"endTime":814.544,"body":"There's examples of this out there."},{"startTime":814.724,"endTime":818.744,"body":"What will happen is not only is their"},{"startTime":814.724,"endTime":818.744,"body":"core business being serviced by IT and"},{"startTime":818.744,"endTime":822.674,"body":"enabled by IT, but IT will come up with"},{"startTime":818.744,"endTime":822.674,"body":"new products, which then eventually"},{"startTime":822.674,"endTime":825.194,"body":"become part of their core products, right?"},{"startTime":825.344,"endTime":829.784,"body":"That wouldn't never happen if IT was"},{"startTime":825.344,"endTime":829.784,"body":"simply treated as a, a cost center."},{"startTime":829.834,"endTime":833.284,"body":"A lot of where you were going it"},{"startTime":829.834,"endTime":833.284,"body":"scares me because one day you wake up"},{"startTime":833.314,"endTime":837.444,"body":"and now you have no job because the"},{"startTime":833.314,"endTime":837.444,"body":"You know, we offshored this here and"},{"startTime":837.444,"endTime":841.444,"body":"we reduced costs there and we budgets"},{"startTime":837.444,"endTime":841.444,"body":"got slashed over here or whatever."},{"startTime":841.464,"endTime":841.784,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":841.934,"endTime":842.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":842.284,"endTime":845.404,"body":"And like, through no fault of your"},{"startTime":842.284,"endTime":845.404,"body":"own, like you have a great product or"},{"startTime":845.404,"endTime":848.394,"body":"whatever that you produced or whatever,"},{"startTime":845.404,"endTime":848.394,"body":"but it's just it's a business society."},{"startTime":848.434,"endTime":849.984,"body":"They wanted to try something different."},{"startTime":849.984,"endTime":852.944,"body":"And then you got kind of swept"},{"startTime":849.984,"endTime":852.944,"body":"away . Yeah, it's very true."},{"startTime":853.014,"endTime":854.034,"body":"Very, very true."},{"startTime":854.184,"endTime":855.904,"body":"And we've been seeing that a lot lately."},{"startTime":855.914,"endTime":858.934,"body":"The other thing is like, when you're"},{"startTime":855.914,"endTime":858.934,"body":"that kind of organization that we're"},{"startTime":858.934,"endTime":861.964,"body":"describing, which is a very specific"},{"startTime":858.934,"endTime":861.964,"body":"organization, so maybe it doesn't apply to"},{"startTime":861.964,"endTime":865.314,"body":"everybody, but when you're that specific"},{"startTime":861.964,"endTime":865.314,"body":"type of organization, like the IT side"},{"startTime":865.464,"endTime":869.774,"body":"of the house, They didn't think in long"},{"startTime":865.464,"endTime":869.774,"body":"term, like culturally at all, like the, I"},{"startTime":869.774,"endTime":874.684,"body":"mean, quarterly, I think they did yearly"},{"startTime":869.774,"endTime":874.684,"body":"budgeting, but the yearly budgeting was"},{"startTime":874.684,"endTime":877.304,"body":"basically just looking at all the money"},{"startTime":874.684,"endTime":877.304,"body":"that was given to them in the previous"},{"startTime":877.304,"endTime":881.994,"body":"year to do it projects and then taking"},{"startTime":877.304,"endTime":881.994,"body":"that same number plus a percentage or"},{"startTime":881.994,"endTime":885.414,"body":"whatever and forecasting the next year"},{"startTime":881.994,"endTime":885.414,"body":"along with the things that they knew"},{"startTime":885.414,"endTime":888.574,"body":"they were going to work on, Oh, we got"},{"startTime":885.414,"endTime":888.574,"body":"to deal with this dependency this year or"},{"startTime":888.574,"endTime":889.954,"body":"this thing going end of life or whatever."},{"startTime":889.954,"endTime":890.694,"body":"Cultures like that."},{"startTime":890.704,"endTime":893.544,"body":"They don't think about the value"},{"startTime":890.704,"endTime":893.544,"body":"side of the equation, right?"},{"startTime":893.544,"endTime":896.374,"body":"It's just simply here's a"},{"startTime":893.544,"endTime":896.374,"body":"here's a bucket of money don't"},{"startTime":896.374,"endTime":898.974,"body":"overspend and very high level."},{"startTime":898.984,"endTime":899.924,"body":"Here's what we're trying to do."},{"startTime":899.944,"endTime":902.439,"body":"We're trying to shoot"},{"startTime":899.944,"endTime":902.439,"body":"Out there in outer space."},{"startTime":902.439,"endTime":903.379,"body":"Is it for the moon?"},{"startTime":903.529,"endTime":904.369,"body":"Or Mars?"},{"startTime":904.429,"endTime":906.009,"body":"This is going to be an"},{"startTime":904.429,"endTime":906.009,"body":"interstellar planet."},{"startTime":906.239,"endTime":906.699,"body":"That's all."},{"startTime":906.729,"endTime":909.719,"body":"Well, I mean, short term thinking now"},{"startTime":906.729,"endTime":909.719,"body":"that we're talking about this category,"},{"startTime":909.869,"endTime":914.129,"body":"I mean, let's not dismiss legitimate"},{"startTime":909.869,"endTime":914.129,"body":"functioning companies that just that"},{"startTime":914.129,"endTime":917.089,"body":"just don't have strategy and can't,"},{"startTime":914.129,"endTime":917.089,"body":"that they, the strategy apparatus"},{"startTime":917.089,"endTime":921.489,"body":"that muscle for building, exercising,"},{"startTime":917.089,"endTime":921.489,"body":"testing, and then operating strategies."},{"startTime":921.639,"endTime":922.949,"body":"It just doesn't, it's non functional."},{"startTime":922.959,"endTime":923.709,"body":"They just can't do it."},{"startTime":923.709,"endTime":926.379,"body":"So they come up with all these"},{"startTime":923.709,"endTime":926.379,"body":"other things  instead of strategies."},{"startTime":926.379,"endTime":930.269,"body":"they do a lot of short term things"},{"startTime":926.379,"endTime":930.269,"body":"because there's, this is like quarterly"},{"startTime":930.319,"endTime":934.559,"body":"capitalism about hey, just make it, make"},{"startTime":930.319,"endTime":934.559,"body":"the numbers look good quarter to quarter."},{"startTime":934.719,"endTime":936.179,"body":"I got to hit my targets the next quarter."},{"startTime":936.179,"endTime":938.859,"body":"So the stock market doesn't come"},{"startTime":936.179,"endTime":938.859,"body":"down on me and the stakeholders"},{"startTime":938.859,"endTime":939.699,"body":"don't come down on me."},{"startTime":939.849,"endTime":944.519,"body":"So basically everything is optimized"},{"startTime":939.849,"endTime":944.519,"body":"for quarterly output or I guess"},{"startTime":944.529,"endTime":948.399,"body":"quarterly results, profits,"},{"startTime":944.529,"endTime":948.399,"body":"quarterly results, they're not often"},{"startTime":948.609,"endTime":950.469,"body":"profits, unfortunately, but I agree."},{"startTime":950.479,"endTime":952.399,"body":"And it's pervasive"},{"startTime":950.479,"endTime":952.399,"body":"throughout the organization."},{"startTime":952.599,"endTime":954.739,"body":"So that's how leadership is measured."},{"startTime":954.749,"endTime":959.459,"body":"That's how middle leadership management"},{"startTime":954.749,"endTime":959.459,"body":"is measured all the way down to the teams."},{"startTime":959.784,"endTime":961.114,"body":"Everybody's measured that way."},{"startTime":961.264,"endTime":962.984,"body":"And that's a shame, really."},{"startTime":963.134,"endTime":967.844,"body":"The reason that short term thinking I'm"},{"startTime":963.134,"endTime":967.844,"body":"stuck on this one as a product manager"},{"startTime":967.854,"endTime":970.914,"body":"because it's kind of like antithesis of"},{"startTime":967.854,"endTime":970.914,"body":"product management, short term thinking."},{"startTime":970.924,"endTime":973.294,"body":"I mean, you could do product"},{"startTime":970.924,"endTime":973.294,"body":"management in short term thinking."},{"startTime":973.444,"endTime":977.224,"body":"That that's what feature factories do they"},{"startTime":973.444,"endTime":977.224,"body":"go from the this next deliverable to the"},{"startTime":977.224,"endTime":980.944,"body":"next deliverable to the next one And they"},{"startTime":977.224,"endTime":980.944,"body":"don't ever question like we're five years."},{"startTime":980.944,"endTime":981.634,"body":"Where are we gonna be?"},{"startTime":981.784,"endTime":984.024,"body":"You know, we may have a podcast"},{"startTime":981.784,"endTime":984.024,"body":"coming up on that Topic."},{"startTime":984.064,"endTime":984.514,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":984.574,"endTime":984.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":985.074,"endTime":985.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":985.634,"endTime":989.704,"body":"Well  one of the things we don't talk"},{"startTime":985.634,"endTime":989.704,"body":"about in the I don't hear it talked about"},{"startTime":989.704,"endTime":993.654,"body":"in the product management Agile circles"},{"startTime":989.704,"endTime":993.654,"body":"and whatnot a couple different circles"},{"startTime":993.654,"endTime":997.744,"body":"that we interact with explore exploit"},{"startTime":993.654,"endTime":997.744,"body":"Like the trade off, the wheel of explore"},{"startTime":997.744,"endTime":1001.964,"body":"exploit you, you, you're just like the,"},{"startTime":997.744,"endTime":1001.964,"body":"our plumbers who are trying to figure"},{"startTime":1001.964,"endTime":1004.294,"body":"out how new and better ways of working."},{"startTime":1004.444,"endTime":1005.534,"body":"Like, that's the explore phase."},{"startTime":1005.684,"endTime":1007.744,"body":"Once they do it, they're going to"},{"startTime":1005.684,"endTime":1007.744,"body":"bring those learnings back, share"},{"startTime":1007.744,"endTime":1009.454,"body":"it with everybody on our cruise."},{"startTime":1009.604,"endTime":1012.104,"body":"And now all of our plumbers"},{"startTime":1009.604,"endTime":1012.104,"body":"are exploiting that new trick."},{"startTime":1012.254,"endTime":1015.304,"body":"You know, this one new trick is"},{"startTime":1012.254,"endTime":1015.304,"body":"how to do plumbing or whatever."},{"startTime":1015.454,"endTime":1018.744,"body":"I think again, it goes back to"},{"startTime":1015.454,"endTime":1018.744,"body":"the very first thing we started"},{"startTime":1018.744,"endTime":1021.544,"body":"with, which is You know, I think it"},{"startTime":1018.744,"endTime":1021.544,"body":"might've been one of the very first"},{"startTime":1021.544,"endTime":1023.314,"body":"ones today risk averseness, right?"},{"startTime":1023.464,"endTime":1025.994,"body":"Even if you explore and you"},{"startTime":1023.464,"endTime":1025.994,"body":"learn something to be able to"},{"startTime":1025.994,"endTime":1029.144,"body":"institutionalize that across the"},{"startTime":1025.994,"endTime":1029.144,"body":"board, unless that's backed by"},{"startTime":1029.144,"endTime":1030.454,"body":"leadership, it's not going to happen."},{"startTime":1030.604,"endTime":1030.944,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1030.944,"endTime":1034.284,"body":"As plumber a comes back and says, I've"},{"startTime":1030.944,"endTime":1034.284,"body":"got this brilliant idea and plumber"},{"startTime":1034.284,"endTime":1037.064,"body":"B is going to go, I don't want to"},{"startTime":1034.284,"endTime":1037.064,"body":"try that because you know, my boss"},{"startTime":1037.064,"endTime":1038.944,"body":"doesn't like that or won't like it."},{"startTime":1039.094,"endTime":1041.214,"body":"So yeah, the first half of this podcast."},{"startTime":1041.364,"endTime":1044.154,"body":"Had to do with the less"},{"startTime":1041.364,"endTime":1044.154,"body":"controversial stuff."},{"startTime":1044.384,"endTime":1047.674,"body":"And then the second half now that you"},{"startTime":1044.384,"endTime":1047.674,"body":"mentioned the hierarchical structure,"},{"startTime":1047.674,"endTime":1050.334,"body":"the middle management and whatnot,"},{"startTime":1047.674,"endTime":1050.334,"body":"and the way the top managers got to"},{"startTime":1050.334,"endTime":1053.024,"body":"get on board with these transformation"},{"startTime":1050.334,"endTime":1053.024,"body":"initiatives or else they go nowhere."},{"startTime":1053.174,"endTime":1056.744,"body":"Let's dig into that for a"},{"startTime":1053.174,"endTime":1056.744,"body":"second as a Hey we need control."},{"startTime":1056.894,"endTime":1057.554,"body":"We need control."},{"startTime":1057.554,"endTime":1059.714,"body":"We need to feel like we're in"},{"startTime":1057.554,"endTime":1059.714,"body":"control because let's be honest."},{"startTime":1059.734,"endTime":1060.254,"body":"That's what it is."},{"startTime":1060.254,"endTime":1061.604,"body":"It's a feeling you're"},{"startTime":1060.254,"endTime":1061.604,"body":"not really in control."},{"startTime":1061.754,"endTime":1061.984,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1062.154,"endTime":1065.714,"body":"So we don't want to delegate to"},{"startTime":1062.154,"endTime":1065.714,"body":"the teams and then influence and"},{"startTime":1065.714,"endTime":1067.094,"body":"coach and help them do the job."},{"startTime":1067.094,"endTime":1067.974,"body":"No, no, we don't want to do that."},{"startTime":1067.984,"endTime":1071.634,"body":"We want to feel like we're in control but"},{"startTime":1067.984,"endTime":1071.634,"body":"also we haven't mentioned micromanagement"},{"startTime":1071.654,"endTime":1072.634,"body":"at one time on the podcast."},{"startTime":1072.634,"endTime":1073.864,"body":"I'm kind of impressed by the way."},{"startTime":1074.164,"endTime":1077.774,"body":"So what is the best way to"},{"startTime":1074.164,"endTime":1077.774,"body":"feel like we're in control?"},{"startTime":1077.774,"endTime":1081.154,"body":"Well, we roll out this"},{"startTime":1077.774,"endTime":1081.154,"body":"hierarchical org design structure"},{"startTime":1081.414,"endTime":1082.774,"body":"where everybody has a boss."},{"startTime":1082.964,"endTime":1085.364,"body":"And I have five bosses here at Inateck."},{"startTime":1085.514,"endTime":1088.034,"body":"You know when I hear, like"},{"startTime":1085.514,"endTime":1088.034,"body":"when I screw up, I gotta hear"},{"startTime":1088.034,"endTime":1089.084,"body":"about it from my five bosses."},{"startTime":1089.264,"endTime":1092.834,"body":"Like the, the middle management,"},{"startTime":1089.264,"endTime":1092.834,"body":"like if you had like large companies,"},{"startTime":1092.834,"endTime":1096.024,"body":"like thousands of employee, large"},{"startTime":1092.834,"endTime":1096.024,"body":"companies, when I say middle management,"},{"startTime":1096.024,"endTime":1099.104,"body":"you think of like, oh, just like"},{"startTime":1096.024,"endTime":1099.104,"body":"middle manager Bob or whatever."},{"startTime":1099.254,"endTime":1100.034,"body":"Like, okay."},{"startTime":1100.094,"endTime":1102.104,"body":"It's not just, but it's"},{"startTime":1100.094,"endTime":1102.104,"body":"not middle management."},{"startTime":1102.104,"endTime":1106.004,"body":"Bob at a large company, middle management"},{"startTime":1102.104,"endTime":1106.004,"body":"Bob is actually Director Bob, who"},{"startTime":1106.004,"endTime":1109.394,"body":"has 150 employees under his division."},{"startTime":1109.544,"endTime":1114.674,"body":"his only like his metric of him doing a"},{"startTime":1109.544,"endTime":1114.674,"body":"good job is adding more employees under"},{"startTime":1114.674,"endTime":1118.884,"body":"his division and growing his division and"},{"startTime":1114.674,"endTime":1118.884,"body":"getting more projects and money into his"},{"startTime":1118.884,"endTime":1121.114,"body":"division, he's not measured by successes."},{"startTime":1121.264,"endTime":1122.594,"body":"Or happy customers or whatever."},{"startTime":1122.654,"endTime":1123.964,"body":"It's just, I got more dollars."},{"startTime":1123.964,"endTime":1124.554,"body":"I got more people."},{"startTime":1124.574,"endTime":1125.234,"body":"I am successful."},{"startTime":1125.384,"endTime":1126.064,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1126.074,"endTime":1128.584,"body":"That's again, the fallacy of"},{"startTime":1126.074,"endTime":1128.584,"body":"measuring the wrong thing, right?"},{"startTime":1128.594,"endTime":1129.704,"body":"That's how he's rewarded."},{"startTime":1129.854,"endTime":1133.944,"body":"So when, when something doesn't go"},{"startTime":1129.854,"endTime":1133.944,"body":"right he's not going to get the blame."},{"startTime":1134.034,"endTime":1137.124,"body":"He's going to blame those people"},{"startTime":1134.034,"endTime":1137.124,"body":"downstream get rid of a few people,"},{"startTime":1137.174,"endTime":1140.904,"body":"get some replacements, Bob continues to"},{"startTime":1137.174,"endTime":1140.904,"body":"thrive that, that's the sad part, but"},{"startTime":1140.914,"endTime":1145.014,"body":"coming back to the, to this topic that"},{"startTime":1140.914,"endTime":1145.014,"body":"you started with the hierarchy, right?"},{"startTime":1145.214,"endTime":1148.144,"body":"One of the things that happens"},{"startTime":1145.214,"endTime":1148.144,"body":"when you add hierarchy is"},{"startTime":1148.174,"endTime":1149.494,"body":"latency of decision making."},{"startTime":1149.644,"endTime":1152.154,"body":"So, by definition, you"},{"startTime":1149.644,"endTime":1152.154,"body":"gotta get sign offs."},{"startTime":1152.284,"endTime":1153.224,"body":"You gotta go up."},{"startTime":1153.304,"endTime":1154.674,"body":"And then they have to go up."},{"startTime":1154.954,"endTime":1159.294,"body":"And sometimes on arbitrary things"},{"startTime":1154.954,"endTime":1159.294,"body":"well, it's up to 10, 000 of a spend."},{"startTime":1159.524,"endTime":1160.974,"body":"My boss can sign off on it."},{"startTime":1161.114,"endTime":1164.174,"body":"And between 10 and 25,"},{"startTime":1161.114,"endTime":1164.174,"body":"he's gotta go to his boss."},{"startTime":1164.414,"endTime":1164.514,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1164.814,"endTime":1168.794,"body":"And above a certain number, they got to"},{"startTime":1164.814,"endTime":1168.794,"body":"go to the Pope at the Vatican or whatever."},{"startTime":1168.864,"endTime":1169.324,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":1169.364,"endTime":1171.004,"body":"Listen, they got to get the blessings."},{"startTime":1171.004,"endTime":1172.804,"body":"I was just thinking about"},{"startTime":1171.004,"endTime":1172.804,"body":"the Pope for some reason."},{"startTime":1172.854,"endTime":1174.964,"body":"But anyway, Our Lady of"},{"startTime":1172.854,"endTime":1174.964,"body":"Blessed Acceleration."},{"startTime":1175.114,"endTime":1175.964,"body":"Got to get her sign off."},{"startTime":1176.014,"endTime":1176.824,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1177.044,"endTime":1180.394,"body":"So it takes days just to"},{"startTime":1177.044,"endTime":1180.394,"body":"get the decision made."},{"startTime":1180.444,"endTime":1182.894,"body":"And typically it's not that simple, right?"},{"startTime":1183.144,"endTime":1184.184,"body":"They're going to ask questions."},{"startTime":1184.334,"endTime":1185.354,"body":"They come rippling down."},{"startTime":1185.504,"endTime":1189.414,"body":"So now more days get added before"},{"startTime":1185.504,"endTime":1189.414,"body":"you can even get a decision weeks"},{"startTime":1189.444,"endTime":1193.394,"body":"go by and that's, I think, a direct"},{"startTime":1189.444,"endTime":1193.394,"body":"result of having a hierarchy like that"},{"startTime":1193.744,"endTime":1198.694,"body":"where everybody needs to understand"},{"startTime":1193.744,"endTime":1198.694,"body":"stall delay, block, tackle, whatever,"},{"startTime":1198.694,"endTime":1202.174,"body":"because they have this Need to be in"},{"startTime":1198.694,"endTime":1202.174,"body":"control, at least the illusion of it."},{"startTime":1202.324,"endTime":1204.844,"body":"Well, sadly, some people don't even"},{"startTime":1202.324,"endTime":1204.844,"body":"realize an illusion that they think"},{"startTime":1204.854,"endTime":1207.994,"body":"that's the only way to work well,  if"},{"startTime":1204.854,"endTime":1207.994,"body":"your command structure here is a"},{"startTime":1207.994,"endTime":1210.924,"body":"hierarchy, that's right, I said,"},{"startTime":1207.994,"endTime":1210.924,"body":"command, that's what it's optimized for."},{"startTime":1210.924,"endTime":1214.144,"body":"It's optimized to let people"},{"startTime":1210.924,"endTime":1214.144,"body":"at the top make the decisions"},{"startTime":1214.144,"endTime":1215.984,"body":"and then roll it on back down."},{"startTime":1216.084,"endTime":1220.964,"body":"that's a terrible, that's a highly"},{"startTime":1216.084,"endTime":1220.964,"body":"inefficient way of organizing."},{"startTime":1220.994,"endTime":1225.094,"body":"I wonder why the authoritarian,"},{"startTime":1220.994,"endTime":1225.094,"body":"governmental structure is the default"},{"startTime":1225.244,"endTime":1226.914,"body":"corporate governance structure."},{"startTime":1226.924,"endTime":1228.164,"body":"I wonder how that got like that."},{"startTime":1228.314,"endTime":1229.264,"body":"It wasn't always that way."},{"startTime":1229.264,"endTime":1233.444,"body":"the business owner and a gang of people"},{"startTime":1229.264,"endTime":1233.444,"body":"there were team leads who were foremen."},{"startTime":1233.699,"endTime":1236.269,"body":"Who knew how to do the work"},{"startTime":1233.699,"endTime":1236.269,"body":"better than general workers and"},{"startTime":1236.269,"endTime":1237.559,"body":"then just a body of workers."},{"startTime":1237.829,"endTime":1240.559,"body":"that was the structure when"},{"startTime":1237.829,"endTime":1240.559,"body":"Taylor entered the picture."},{"startTime":1240.609,"endTime":1242.289,"body":"Well, I'll tell you how"},{"startTime":1240.609,"endTime":1242.289,"body":"I think it got like that."},{"startTime":1242.289,"endTime":1245.219,"body":"So when Taylor entered the picture,"},{"startTime":1242.289,"endTime":1245.219,"body":"it was fairly straightforward."},{"startTime":1245.369,"endTime":1249.159,"body":"A small company, like you said, there's"},{"startTime":1245.369,"endTime":1249.159,"body":"one layer, maybe two at the most."},{"startTime":1249.179,"endTime":1250.149,"body":"And then the workers."},{"startTime":1250.299,"endTime":1251.489,"body":"And then they grew."},{"startTime":1251.639,"endTime":1256.179,"body":"So when you scale up, that person who's"},{"startTime":1251.639,"endTime":1256.179,"body":"in charge of the workers, they can't now"},{"startTime":1256.179,"endTime":1260.889,"body":"be in charge of, A thousand workers when"},{"startTime":1256.179,"endTime":1260.889,"body":"they were in charge of a hundred, right?"},{"startTime":1261.039,"endTime":1263.899,"body":"So when you scale up and you"},{"startTime":1261.039,"endTime":1263.899,"body":"grow You just can't keep up."},{"startTime":1264.159,"endTime":1264.849,"body":"So what do you do?"},{"startTime":1264.939,"endTime":1266.209,"body":"You add a layer, right?"},{"startTime":1266.259,"endTime":1269.779,"body":"And then you grow more and you add"},{"startTime":1266.259,"endTime":1269.779,"body":"a layer and so that's how I think it"},{"startTime":1269.929,"endTime":1274.684,"body":"evolved that way over the years More and"},{"startTime":1269.929,"endTime":1274.684,"body":"more layers got added scaling problems."},{"startTime":1274.754,"endTime":1278.964,"body":"I think this is one of the downsides"},{"startTime":1274.754,"endTime":1278.964,"body":"of scaling in the wrong way."},{"startTime":1279.264,"endTime":1283.434,"body":"I think part of it is obviously"},{"startTime":1279.264,"endTime":1283.434,"body":"Taylor is, taking some blame here."},{"startTime":1283.484,"endTime":1285.204,"body":"Taylor, you're not getting"},{"startTime":1283.484,"endTime":1285.204,"body":"out of this one some of this."},{"startTime":1285.354,"endTime":1286.454,"body":"Is directed at Taylor."},{"startTime":1286.604,"endTime":1289.304,"body":"The other one is I wonder once"},{"startTime":1286.604,"endTime":1289.304,"body":"Taylor's theories and everything like"},{"startTime":1289.334,"endTime":1292.474,"body":"proliferated and entire schools were"},{"startTime":1289.334,"endTime":1292.474,"body":"built around and stuff like that, I"},{"startTime":1292.474,"endTime":1296.214,"body":"wonder if people just kind of stopped"},{"startTime":1292.474,"endTime":1296.214,"body":"searching for other ways of organization."},{"startTime":1296.364,"endTime":1296.774,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1296.774,"endTime":1300.394,"body":"Like the cost of developing new"},{"startTime":1296.774,"endTime":1300.394,"body":"organizational methods and trying them,"},{"startTime":1300.544,"endTime":1301.624,"body":"people just didn't want to bother."},{"startTime":1301.684,"endTime":1304.324,"body":"Well, for the longest time,"},{"startTime":1301.684,"endTime":1304.324,"body":"that wasn't a thing, right?"},{"startTime":1304.354,"endTime":1306.234,"body":"But we think about the history."},{"startTime":1306.549,"endTime":1307.799,"body":"Right of Taylor."},{"startTime":1307.849,"endTime":1311.099,"body":"It goes back a long way and"},{"startTime":1307.849,"endTime":1311.099,"body":"then the wars came about right?"},{"startTime":1311.149,"endTime":1314.819,"body":"So now we had to mobilize people to"},{"startTime":1311.149,"endTime":1314.819,"body":"get mass production done the Industrial"},{"startTime":1314.819,"endTime":1319.189,"body":"Revolution hit And none of that really"},{"startTime":1314.819,"endTime":1319.189,"body":"allowed for lateral thinking it was just"},{"startTime":1319.229,"endTime":1323.599,"body":"basically get this done They say get"},{"startTime":1319.229,"endTime":1323.599,"body":"things done throw more people at it."},{"startTime":1323.799,"endTime":1328.759,"body":"Well, I think the real answer here"},{"startTime":1323.799,"endTime":1328.759,"body":"is a very complex and not something"},{"startTime":1328.759,"endTime":1331.779,"body":"that we're going to be able to really"},{"startTime":1328.759,"endTime":1331.779,"body":"dig into in terms of the podcast."},{"startTime":1331.819,"endTime":1335.889,"body":"But I think the educational systems"},{"startTime":1331.819,"endTime":1335.889,"body":"that took Taylor's teachings and"},{"startTime":1335.889,"endTime":1337.819,"body":"dropped it in and then spread it."},{"startTime":1338.164,"endTime":1341.654,"body":"And then try to use it to obviously"},{"startTime":1338.164,"endTime":1341.654,"body":"make money off of teaching that system."},{"startTime":1341.804,"endTime":1343.334,"body":"I don't think that helped either."},{"startTime":1343.364,"endTime":1347.854,"body":"Cause now you've got Taylor's systems"},{"startTime":1343.364,"endTime":1347.854,"body":"are in the early before 1920 basically."},{"startTime":1348.074,"endTime":1353.534,"body":"And then you've got years of really"},{"startTime":1348.074,"endTime":1353.534,"body":"nothing and then this the fifties"},{"startTime":1353.534,"endTime":1356.974,"body":"and sixties, you've got this"},{"startTime":1353.534,"endTime":1356.974,"body":"hierarchical control structure thing"},{"startTime":1356.974,"endTime":1360.664,"body":"that we're talking about now is the"},{"startTime":1356.974,"endTime":1360.664,"body":"default, the de facto in the world."},{"startTime":1360.684,"endTime":1366.144,"body":"I think the education system really"},{"startTime":1360.684,"endTime":1366.144,"body":"not only didn't help it hurt because"},{"startTime":1366.194,"endTime":1369.764,"body":"it basically prevented people"},{"startTime":1366.194,"endTime":1369.764,"body":"from thinking outside of that."},{"startTime":1369.774,"endTime":1373.364,"body":"You know, you had to go to business"},{"startTime":1369.774,"endTime":1373.364,"body":"school, you had to get to, to become"},{"startTime":1373.364,"endTime":1374.864,"body":"a leader in those days, right?"},{"startTime":1374.874,"endTime":1377.964,"body":"To become the boss, you had"},{"startTime":1374.874,"endTime":1377.964,"body":"to have an MBA or some such."},{"startTime":1378.224,"endTime":1379.674,"body":"You had to go to business school."},{"startTime":1379.724,"endTime":1382.224,"body":"A good respectable business school"},{"startTime":1379.724,"endTime":1382.224,"body":"and you know what you're going to get"},{"startTime":1382.334,"endTime":1384.054,"body":"out of a person from those schools."},{"startTime":1384.284,"endTime":1386.314,"body":"You know, they're going to"},{"startTime":1384.284,"endTime":1386.314,"body":"teach a certain set of values."},{"startTime":1386.314,"endTime":1390.234,"body":"And I think like, this, what I think"},{"startTime":1386.314,"endTime":1390.234,"body":"of as a typical MBA type of value here."},{"startTime":1390.234,"endTime":1393.784,"body":"the ones that are misunderstanding"},{"startTime":1390.234,"endTime":1393.784,"body":"agility in the first place, I think,"},{"startTime":1393.784,"endTime":1397.054,"body":"Oh, well, you guys are just putting"},{"startTime":1393.784,"endTime":1397.054,"body":"out garbage and put out half done work."},{"startTime":1397.054,"endTime":1398.364,"body":"And you guys have no plan."},{"startTime":1398.364,"endTime":1399.274,"body":"Basically you have no plan."},{"startTime":1399.274,"endTime":1399.884,"body":"You have a strategy."},{"startTime":1399.884,"endTime":1403.914,"body":"You're just working on the latest fire"},{"startTime":1399.884,"endTime":1403.914,"body":"going from point to point like the"},{"startTime":1403.954,"endTime":1407.654,"body":"educational system probably could have"},{"startTime":1403.954,"endTime":1407.654,"body":"been geared like when you go to a school."},{"startTime":1407.804,"endTime":1411.324,"body":"For higher education, they could be in a"},{"startTime":1407.804,"endTime":1411.324,"body":"position because you went to the school."},{"startTime":1411.334,"endTime":1412.654,"body":"I mean, they have all your details, right?"},{"startTime":1412.874,"endTime":1417.164,"body":"Then you could be in a position where"},{"startTime":1412.874,"endTime":1417.164,"body":"they're constantly seeking to update and"},{"startTime":1417.164,"endTime":1422.194,"body":"refresh your knowledge of the evolving"},{"startTime":1417.164,"endTime":1422.194,"body":"science in your particular area, right?"},{"startTime":1422.194,"endTime":1424.504,"body":"If it's you and I working in software"},{"startTime":1422.194,"endTime":1424.504,"body":"development, they could constantly"},{"startTime":1424.504,"endTime":1427.204,"body":"be saying like, Hey, have you seen"},{"startTime":1424.504,"endTime":1427.204,"body":"this study about organizational"},{"startTime":1427.204,"endTime":1428.384,"body":"psychology in a workplace?"},{"startTime":1428.624,"endTime":1429.504,"body":"Maybe it applies to you."},{"startTime":1429.504,"endTime":1430.344,"body":"Hey, have you seen these things?"},{"startTime":1430.344,"endTime":1432.734,"body":"They could be trying to draw you back in."},{"startTime":1432.884,"endTime":1435.164,"body":"To refresh your degree or"},{"startTime":1432.884,"endTime":1435.164,"body":"whatever learning that you"},{"startTime":1435.164,"endTime":1436.344,"body":"have to keep you current."},{"startTime":1436.344,"endTime":1438.214,"body":"Cause again, if you get an MBA."},{"startTime":1438.364,"endTime":1441.514,"body":"And you, you learn that everything"},{"startTime":1438.364,"endTime":1441.514,"body":"has to have a Gantt chart and every"},{"startTime":1441.544,"endTime":1444.554,"body":"like resource utilization and capacity"},{"startTime":1441.544,"endTime":1444.554,"body":"planning, all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1444.814,"endTime":1447.864,"body":"And then 20 years goes by and you"},{"startTime":1444.814,"endTime":1447.864,"body":"find like, Oh, all that's like,"},{"startTime":1447.894,"endTime":1449.454,"body":"nobody wants that anymore, you know?"},{"startTime":1449.604,"endTime":1449.854,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1449.854,"endTime":1455.214,"body":"So, I mean, certainly going back maybe"},{"startTime":1449.854,"endTime":1455.214,"body":"20 years or so that was the case where"},{"startTime":1455.214,"endTime":1458.594,"body":"you just came out with your prestigious"},{"startTime":1455.214,"endTime":1458.594,"body":"piece of paper and he got you places."},{"startTime":1458.594,"endTime":1458.874,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1458.934,"endTime":1462.104,"body":"But I think things have changed a little"},{"startTime":1458.934,"endTime":1462.104,"body":"since then, because what's happened,"},{"startTime":1462.104,"endTime":1465.864,"body":"I can talk about my own perspective"},{"startTime":1462.104,"endTime":1465.864,"body":"after I graduated with an MBA."},{"startTime":1466.014,"endTime":1469.184,"body":"I constantly kept hearing from business"},{"startTime":1466.014,"endTime":1469.184,"body":"school saying, here's a webinar."},{"startTime":1469.194,"endTime":1471.164,"body":"Here's this before webinars."},{"startTime":1471.164,"endTime":1472.154,"body":"It was retreats."},{"startTime":1472.154,"endTime":1473.654,"body":"They call them go there for the weekend."},{"startTime":1473.864,"endTime":1474.164,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1474.454,"endTime":1477.804,"body":"And it was deep immersion"},{"startTime":1474.454,"endTime":1477.804,"body":"in a new concept."},{"startTime":1477.954,"endTime":1481.824,"body":"Yeah, I mean, that's great, but that"},{"startTime":1477.954,"endTime":1481.824,"body":"costs money and people don't bother."},{"startTime":1481.974,"endTime":1485.414,"body":"That's in contrast to one of my"},{"startTime":1481.974,"endTime":1485.414,"body":"favorite alternatives here, which"},{"startTime":1485.414,"endTime":1486.884,"body":"is that journeyman model, right?"},{"startTime":1487.054,"endTime":1488.254,"body":"So yeah, you go to business school."},{"startTime":1488.254,"endTime":1488.694,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1488.694,"endTime":1492.634,"body":"When you come out, you work under"},{"startTime":1488.694,"endTime":1492.634,"body":"the guidance of somebody who's"},{"startTime":1492.634,"endTime":1494.104,"body":"done it for a long, long time."},{"startTime":1494.254,"endTime":1495.974,"body":"And you learn from that."},{"startTime":1496.164,"endTime":1498.794,"body":"And then they put you out,"},{"startTime":1496.164,"endTime":1498.794,"body":"the training wheels off."},{"startTime":1498.944,"endTime":1502.314,"body":"And they're not gonna let you fail, but"},{"startTime":1498.944,"endTime":1502.314,"body":"you learn through the school of hard"},{"startTime":1502.314,"endTime":1503.954,"body":"knocks, And then you keep going back."},{"startTime":1504.104,"endTime":1507.124,"body":"Now I keep saying that it doesn't"},{"startTime":1504.104,"endTime":1507.124,"body":"have to be one person also, right?"},{"startTime":1507.124,"endTime":1508.114,"body":"It could be a finance person."},{"startTime":1508.154,"endTime":1509.594,"body":"It could be an HR person or whatever."},{"startTime":1509.934,"endTime":1513.014,"body":"So you have guides, basically"},{"startTime":1509.934,"endTime":1513.014,"body":"the higher level guides that you"},{"startTime":1513.014,"endTime":1516.504,"body":"can go back to over time, making"},{"startTime":1513.014,"endTime":1516.504,"body":"that optional versus mandatory."},{"startTime":1516.504,"endTime":1520.694,"body":"We can talk about that but I think"},{"startTime":1516.504,"endTime":1520.694,"body":"that model has a higher chance of"},{"startTime":1520.844,"endTime":1524.604,"body":"not just coming out with a piece of"},{"startTime":1520.844,"endTime":1524.604,"body":"paper that you can brandish, right?"},{"startTime":1524.634,"endTime":1527.294,"body":"These are skills that"},{"startTime":1524.634,"endTime":1527.294,"body":"you learn by practicing."},{"startTime":1527.444,"endTime":1530.024,"body":"There's something here that"},{"startTime":1527.444,"endTime":1530.024,"body":"I want to dig deeper into."},{"startTime":1530.044,"endTime":1533.424,"body":"I think of all the, like the"},{"startTime":1530.044,"endTime":1533.424,"body":"professional development and"},{"startTime":1533.424,"endTime":1535.874,"body":"networking organizations and stuff"},{"startTime":1533.424,"endTime":1535.874,"body":"like that, even just here in town."},{"startTime":1536.024,"endTime":1539.564,"body":"And I always wonder why the university"},{"startTime":1536.024,"endTime":1539.564,"body":"systems are not, are not connected to"},{"startTime":1539.564,"endTime":1542.804,"body":"those, like you would think they want to"},{"startTime":1539.564,"endTime":1542.804,"body":"be, if, if the universities want to be."},{"startTime":1542.954,"endTime":1546.164,"body":"They wouldn't have deep ties with"},{"startTime":1542.954,"endTime":1546.164,"body":"industry, like they should have deep ties"},{"startTime":1546.174,"endTime":1550.944,"body":"with the professionals in their localities"},{"startTime":1546.174,"endTime":1550.944,"body":"that are on the edge of this stuff."},{"startTime":1551.094,"endTime":1553.824,"body":"And I don't know if it's just"},{"startTime":1551.094,"endTime":1553.824,"body":"like a an effort type of thing."},{"startTime":1553.824,"endTime":1557.294,"body":"Like it's very hard to maintain those"},{"startTime":1553.824,"endTime":1557.294,"body":"communities and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1557.294,"endTime":1557.914,"body":"But I don't know."},{"startTime":1557.914,"endTime":1560.044,"body":"I just haven't seen May, maybe"},{"startTime":1557.914,"endTime":1560.044,"body":"it happens in other areas"},{"startTime":1560.044,"endTime":1560.914,"body":"and I'm just not aware of it."},{"startTime":1560.919,"endTime":1564.254,"body":"It could just be my little bubble"},{"startTime":1560.919,"endTime":1564.254,"body":"I'm not seeing it anywhere else."},{"startTime":1564.284,"endTime":1565.684,"body":"I haven't encountered it They're missing."},{"startTime":1565.899,"endTime":1569.519,"body":"That might be something for us"},{"startTime":1565.899,"endTime":1569.519,"body":"that's something that I think we"},{"startTime":1569.529,"endTime":1571.139,"body":"could facilitate like, I don't know."},{"startTime":1571.149,"endTime":1571.509,"body":"We'll see."},{"startTime":1571.509,"endTime":1572.179,"body":"We'll see about that one."},{"startTime":1572.179,"endTime":1575.219,"body":"Let me, let me, let me revisit that one"},{"startTime":1572.179,"endTime":1575.219,"body":"in six months and see how I feel about it."},{"startTime":1575.459,"endTime":1576.749,"body":"Siri, set a time for six months."},{"startTime":1577.029,"endTime":1580.539,"body":"It's so the last one, measurability bias."},{"startTime":1580.689,"endTime":1581.579,"body":"Oh, yes."},{"startTime":1581.589,"endTime":1585.979,"body":"If you're in the business of control,"},{"startTime":1581.589,"endTime":1585.979,"body":"aka command control, and you're"},{"startTime":1585.979,"endTime":1589.189,"body":"in that business, you probably"},{"startTime":1585.979,"endTime":1589.189,"body":"have a measurability bias, and"},{"startTime":1589.199,"endTime":1591.839,"body":"you probably don't want to hear me"},{"startTime":1589.199,"endTime":1591.839,"body":"talk about your measurability bias."},{"startTime":1591.999,"endTime":1593.299,"body":"Why do you care about velocity?"},{"startTime":1593.419,"endTime":1595.399,"body":"Why do you care about number"},{"startTime":1593.419,"endTime":1595.399,"body":"of widgets stamped out?"},{"startTime":1595.439,"endTime":1596.919,"body":"Why do you care about"},{"startTime":1595.439,"endTime":1596.919,"body":"these vanity metrics?"},{"startTime":1597.069,"endTime":1597.399,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1597.549,"endTime":1601.339,"body":"Everybody listening to this has"},{"startTime":1597.549,"endTime":1601.339,"body":"worked for someone who is all tied"},{"startTime":1601.349,"endTime":1603.309,"body":"up in knots about vanity metrics."},{"startTime":1603.309,"endTime":1604.009,"body":"Stuff that doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1604.009,"endTime":1604.279,"body":"And now"},{"startTime":1604.339,"endTime":1608.979,"body":"I love being a product manager now because"},{"startTime":1604.339,"endTime":1608.979,"body":"This is my field on which to play a game"},{"startTime":1608.979,"endTime":1613.129,"body":"that I enjoy, which is, I only care about"},{"startTime":1608.979,"endTime":1613.129,"body":"things that really matter to the business."},{"startTime":1613.189,"endTime":1614.699,"body":"I'm looking at business metrics."},{"startTime":1614.849,"endTime":1619.049,"body":"I, I'm not even going to get, you"},{"startTime":1614.849,"endTime":1619.049,"body":"can't even catch me and you throw me"},{"startTime":1619.069,"endTime":1620.289,"body":"a football during a baseball game."},{"startTime":1620.299,"endTime":1622.399,"body":"Listen, you throw a football at me."},{"startTime":1622.419,"endTime":1624.249,"body":"Yeah, I'll, I'll use a bigger bat."},{"startTime":1624.399,"endTime":1627.989,"body":"What's happened here is again, we"},{"startTime":1624.399,"endTime":1627.989,"body":"go back to the earlier point about."},{"startTime":1628.139,"endTime":1629.729,"body":"That's how it's always been done here."},{"startTime":1630.069,"endTime":1632.259,"body":"So you, that's what gives rise to these."},{"startTime":1632.409,"endTime":1634.509,"body":"silos in organizations, right?"},{"startTime":1634.509,"endTime":1636.099,"body":"Like PMOs and things like that."},{"startTime":1636.339,"endTime":1636.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1636.689,"endTime":1639.399,"body":"And then the illusion of control"},{"startTime":1636.689,"endTime":1639.399,"body":"kicks in well, also they might"},{"startTime":1639.399,"endTime":1640.879,"body":"not even know what to measure."},{"startTime":1641.029,"endTime":1645.909,"body":"Like a PMO might not even know what"},{"startTime":1641.029,"endTime":1645.909,"body":"impacted the business metrics, like what"},{"startTime":1645.909,"endTime":1647.349,"body":"metrics have real impact on the business."},{"startTime":1647.389,"endTime":1648.079,"body":"They just don't know."},{"startTime":1648.079,"endTime":1651.509,"body":"Cause they've never, to not throw too"},{"startTime":1648.079,"endTime":1651.509,"body":"many stones on the podcast they may"},{"startTime":1651.509,"endTime":1653.959,"body":"never have been effective in business."},{"startTime":1653.999,"endTime":1654.759,"body":"Their whole career."},{"startTime":1654.909,"endTime":1655.359,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1655.369,"endTime":1656.299,"body":"They just don't know it."},{"startTime":1656.469,"endTime":1657.139,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1657.149,"endTime":1660.959,"body":"This is why that gave rise to"},{"startTime":1657.149,"endTime":1660.959,"body":"measuring things like utilization,"},{"startTime":1660.999,"endTime":1662.729,"body":"making sure people are busy, right?"},{"startTime":1662.829,"endTime":1663.169,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1663.319,"endTime":1664.379,"body":"We gotta keep people busy."},{"startTime":1664.379,"endTime":1666.979,"body":"You can't have people sitting"},{"startTime":1664.379,"endTime":1666.979,"body":"around 30 percent of their time."},{"startTime":1667.019,"endTime":1669.029,"body":"That's the wildest metric ever."},{"startTime":1669.169,"endTime":1670.069,"body":"I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":1670.189,"endTime":1671.609,"body":"I always give that example though."},{"startTime":1671.799,"endTime":1675.849,"body":"Look, if we want to keep people"},{"startTime":1671.799,"endTime":1675.849,"body":"busy, then we should set the town"},{"startTime":1675.849,"endTime":1677.739,"body":"on fire because our firefighters."},{"startTime":1677.889,"endTime":1680.819,"body":"Are not doing much every day, but when"},{"startTime":1677.889,"endTime":1680.819,"body":"there's a fire, that's about the only"},{"startTime":1680.819,"endTime":1684.879,"body":"time they work So let's go set the town"},{"startTime":1680.819,"endTime":1684.879,"body":"on fire so they can be busy all day Right?"},{"startTime":1684.929,"endTime":1685.669,"body":"You heard it here first."},{"startTime":1685.819,"endTime":1691.249,"body":"Yeah, so, so utilization aside one of"},{"startTime":1685.819,"endTime":1691.249,"body":"the things they like to do is to ensure"},{"startTime":1691.399,"endTime":1693.989,"body":"that there's standardization everywhere."},{"startTime":1694.139,"endTime":1697.559,"body":"And this gets put down in"},{"startTime":1694.139,"endTime":1697.559,"body":"different number of kind of topics."},{"startTime":1697.719,"endTime":1700.364,"body":"They'll say things like, We"},{"startTime":1697.719,"endTime":1700.364,"body":"have to have governance right."},{"startTime":1700.514,"endTime":1702.184,"body":"Which is a fantastic term."},{"startTime":1702.204,"endTime":1703.794,"body":"Governance means we don't trust you."},{"startTime":1703.944,"endTime":1708.284,"body":"So we're going to measure everything"},{"startTime":1703.944,"endTime":1708.284,"body":"you do and we're going to have you"},{"startTime":1708.374,"endTime":1710.194,"body":"accountable to reach a certain bar."},{"startTime":1710.344,"endTime":1711.404,"body":"We don't even know what that bar is."},{"startTime":1711.404,"endTime":1713.594,"body":"We've never done it, but"},{"startTime":1711.404,"endTime":1713.594,"body":"we want you to do it."},{"startTime":1713.604,"endTime":1714.554,"body":"So we're going to hold that."},{"startTime":1714.654,"endTime":1715.774,"body":"That's governance for you."},{"startTime":1715.824,"endTime":1718.484,"body":"Well, now you're playing, now you're"},{"startTime":1715.824,"endTime":1718.484,"body":"playing games because now you made up a"},{"startTime":1718.494,"endTime":1721.614,"body":"metric and now someone else is fighting"},{"startTime":1718.494,"endTime":1721.614,"body":"over that metric and then they'll make"},{"startTime":1721.614,"endTime":1725.364,"body":"up, they'll make up the numbers too, which"},{"startTime":1721.614,"endTime":1725.364,"body":"gives rise to these watermelon reports"},{"startTime":1725.424,"endTime":1727.704,"body":"they're green on the"},{"startTime":1725.424,"endTime":1727.704,"body":"outside, red on the inside."},{"startTime":1727.704,"endTime":1728.029,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1728.029,"endTime":1728.354,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1728.354,"endTime":1731.434,"body":"So, I mean the, the harder, the"},{"startTime":1728.354,"endTime":1731.434,"body":"harder part is this function,"},{"startTime":1731.434,"endTime":1733.694,"body":"this category uh, is"},{"startTime":1731.434,"endTime":1733.694,"body":"the uh, That's terrible."},{"startTime":1733.744,"endTime":1734.264,"body":"And I hate it."},{"startTime":1734.374,"endTime":1737.434,"body":"But the other thing about this category"},{"startTime":1734.374,"endTime":1737.434,"body":"that if I we got to mention it before we"},{"startTime":1737.584,"endTime":1740.104,"body":"leave is while the business is playing"},{"startTime":1737.584,"endTime":1740.104,"body":"all these games, like they're not"},{"startTime":1740.104,"endTime":1744.684,"body":"measuring real business, like outcomes,"},{"startTime":1740.104,"endTime":1744.684,"body":"like real impact of the business."},{"startTime":1744.694,"endTime":1746.314,"body":"They're not measuring any"},{"startTime":1744.694,"endTime":1746.314,"body":"of those real metrics."},{"startTime":1746.324,"endTime":1749.974,"body":"So again, you can find yourself"},{"startTime":1746.324,"endTime":1749.974,"body":"out of a job and have no indicators"},{"startTime":1750.004,"endTime":1751.854,"body":"that you were headed off a cliff."},{"startTime":1752.004,"endTime":1754.404,"body":"But the other thing that worries me"},{"startTime":1752.004,"endTime":1754.404,"body":"about this category is when I see"},{"startTime":1754.404,"endTime":1756.474,"body":"like, Oh, that's a companies are."},{"startTime":1756.624,"endTime":1760.064,"body":"Laying off scrum masters and agile coaches"},{"startTime":1756.624,"endTime":1760.064,"body":"can't get jobs or whatever and you know,"},{"startTime":1760.064,"endTime":1763.014,"body":"everyone's pivoting to product coaches"},{"startTime":1760.064,"endTime":1763.014,"body":"because that's the next trend or whatever."},{"startTime":1763.224,"endTime":1767.914,"body":"Like, how about rather than surfing trends"},{"startTime":1763.224,"endTime":1767.914,"body":"how about we find a way To influence"},{"startTime":1767.914,"endTime":1772.404,"body":"the culture where they're measuring"},{"startTime":1767.914,"endTime":1772.404,"body":"like what the value of a business"},{"startTime":1772.424,"endTime":1775.604,"body":"leader basically Dedicated to the teams."},{"startTime":1775.774,"endTime":1777.294,"body":"What value does that bring us?"},{"startTime":1777.514,"endTime":1780.484,"body":"Like it said last night I was talking"},{"startTime":1777.514,"endTime":1780.484,"body":"about the doorman at the big hotel"},{"startTime":1780.484,"endTime":1784.124,"body":"like We don't need a doorman because"},{"startTime":1780.484,"endTime":1784.124,"body":"people can open like we'll have a door"},{"startTime":1784.124,"endTime":1787.274,"body":"opener Like the little star trek doors"},{"startTime":1784.124,"endTime":1787.274,"body":"or whatever like then we don't need a"},{"startTime":1787.354,"endTime":1790.264,"body":"doorman Well, that'd be is that what"},{"startTime":1787.354,"endTime":1790.264,"body":"the doorman did he just opened the"},{"startTime":1790.264,"endTime":1791.554,"body":"door for people when they walked in?"},{"startTime":1791.704,"endTime":1794.924,"body":"That doesn't seem like that A lot"},{"startTime":1791.704,"endTime":1794.924,"body":"of work and then when you actually"},{"startTime":1794.934,"endTime":1796.584,"body":"go talk to this is a problem."},{"startTime":1796.594,"endTime":1799.154,"body":"This is the empathy here We didn't"},{"startTime":1796.594,"endTime":1799.154,"body":"even mention empathy once in the"},{"startTime":1799.154,"endTime":1801.834,"body":"past So, of course you wouldn't go"},{"startTime":1799.154,"endTime":1801.834,"body":"talk to the doorman and be like, what"},{"startTime":1801.834,"endTime":1803.284,"body":"do you actually do here at Initech?"},{"startTime":1803.304,"endTime":1805.774,"body":"Like you wouldn't actually you know,"},{"startTime":1803.304,"endTime":1805.774,"body":"but he's the face of the company He's"},{"startTime":1805.774,"endTime":1808.364,"body":"the first person you see when you"},{"startTime":1805.774,"endTime":1808.364,"body":"walk in and he says good morning,"},{"startTime":1808.364,"endTime":1813.194,"body":"sir You know, it sets you up for a"},{"startTime":1808.364,"endTime":1813.194,"body":"positive experience He knows everyone"},{"startTime":1813.214,"endTime":1814.594,"body":"and he there's a neighborhood."},{"startTime":1814.594,"endTime":1817.254,"body":"He knows the trends He knows when people"},{"startTime":1814.594,"endTime":1817.254,"body":"are going to be there and when they're"},{"startTime":1817.254,"endTime":1820.804,"body":"not he can spot things, you know out of"},{"startTime":1817.254,"endTime":1820.804,"body":"the ordinary And you know he connected"},{"startTime":1820.954,"endTime":1825.284,"body":"People, other people so yeah, I mean, he"},{"startTime":1820.954,"endTime":1825.284,"body":"can answer questions about you know, Oh,"},{"startTime":1825.334,"endTime":1827.334,"body":"the water in the buildings off today."},{"startTime":1827.334,"endTime":1827.984,"body":"what's going on."},{"startTime":1827.984,"endTime":1829.654,"body":"And he can already tell you"},{"startTime":1827.984,"endTime":1829.654,"body":"before you even get into the"},{"startTime":1829.654,"endTime":1830.079,"body":"building, what's going on."},{"startTime":1830.409,"endTime":1832.299,"body":"It's like, what is the"},{"startTime":1830.409,"endTime":1832.299,"body":"value of someone like that?"},{"startTime":1832.299,"endTime":1834.819,"body":"Like, well, if you ask corporate"},{"startTime":1832.299,"endTime":1834.819,"body":"America, they're gonna say, well,"},{"startTime":1834.819,"endTime":1837.569,"body":"he just opens the doors right,"},{"startTime":1834.819,"endTime":1837.569,"body":"that's, no, there's no value in that."},{"startTime":1837.599,"endTime":1841.884,"body":"I often wonder like if you had a really"},{"startTime":1837.599,"endTime":1841.884,"body":"good manager versus a really bad manager"},{"startTime":1841.994,"endTime":1844.494,"body":"in a company does a company have a way."},{"startTime":1844.584,"endTime":1847.064,"body":"Financial analysis."},{"startTime":1847.294,"endTime":1848.124,"body":"CPAs are smart."},{"startTime":1848.144,"endTime":1849.204,"body":"They go to big schools."},{"startTime":1849.204,"endTime":1850.344,"body":"They get those degrees."},{"startTime":1850.494,"endTime":1854.904,"body":"Do they have a way to measure between a"},{"startTime":1850.494,"endTime":1854.904,"body":"really great manager that everyone loves"},{"startTime":1855.054,"endTime":1858.564,"body":"does coaching can motivate people without"},{"startTime":1855.054,"endTime":1858.564,"body":"this carrot or a stick or whatever,"},{"startTime":1858.884,"endTime":1864.134,"body":"versus a bad manager who's obviously"},{"startTime":1858.884,"endTime":1864.134,"body":"contributing to a toxic work quote, toxic"},{"startTime":1864.274,"endTime":1868.464,"body":"workplace and they don't, I know they"},{"startTime":1864.274,"endTime":1868.464,"body":"don't, they don't, and neither do HR."},{"startTime":1868.614,"endTime":1870.504,"body":"That's the best part of"},{"startTime":1868.614,"endTime":1870.504,"body":"the other problem, right?"},{"startTime":1870.574,"endTime":1871.954,"body":"we don't need to bring HR into this."},{"startTime":1872.104,"endTime":1873.344,"body":"They're already in the building."},{"startTime":1873.394,"endTime":1876.66,"body":"They are because look they're"},{"startTime":1873.394,"endTime":1876.66,"body":"the ones that set these policies"},{"startTime":1876.66,"endTime":1878.3,"body":"on reward and all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1878.34,"endTime":1879.67,"body":"I thought we automated their job with"},{"startTime":1879.67,"endTime":1882.54,"body":"AI avatars and you know, AI chatbots."},{"startTime":1882.69,"endTime":1886.42,"body":"We only automated the input of"},{"startTime":1882.69,"endTime":1886.42,"body":"resumes and surfing through those."},{"startTime":1886.47,"endTime":1888.12,"body":"I think we need to put"},{"startTime":1886.47,"endTime":1888.12,"body":"a bow on this topic."},{"startTime":1888.12,"endTime":1892.065,"body":"So it's like there's much better,"},{"startTime":1888.12,"endTime":1892.065,"body":"a lot of signs of control here."},{"startTime":1892.135,"endTime":1893.515,"body":"A lot of games being played."},{"startTime":1893.865,"endTime":1894.945,"body":"Not a lot of business value."},{"startTime":1895.095,"endTime":1899.075,"body":"In terms of business outcomes and like"},{"startTime":1895.095,"endTime":1899.075,"body":"actual business metrics going on in"},{"startTime":1899.075,"endTime":1902.485,"body":"here, lots of games, lots of games, and"},{"startTime":1899.075,"endTime":1902.485,"body":"that's how the game's always been played."},{"startTime":1902.685,"endTime":1906.545,"body":"I know this, this kind of breaks the"},{"startTime":1902.685,"endTime":1906.545,"body":"format of, of the arguing a bit of the"},{"startTime":1906.545,"endTime":1910.315,"body":"podcast, but I want to talk about maybe"},{"startTime":1906.545,"endTime":1910.315,"body":"some of the reasons why this is important."},{"startTime":1910.495,"endTime":1912.505,"body":"proliferated through through the culture."},{"startTime":1912.655,"endTime":1914.135,"body":"Yeah, because it's I"},{"startTime":1912.655,"endTime":1914.135,"body":"mean, it's everywhere."},{"startTime":1914.285,"endTime":1914.975,"body":"I hear people."},{"startTime":1915.125,"endTime":1916.075,"body":"I was gonna say cry about it."},{"startTime":1916.075,"endTime":1921.915,"body":"I hear people remark on this with"},{"startTime":1916.075,"endTime":1921.915,"body":"a very despondent tones that they"},{"startTime":1921.915,"endTime":1924.995,"body":"don't know what to do because it"},{"startTime":1921.915,"endTime":1924.995,"body":"just seems like it's ubiquitous."},{"startTime":1925.275,"endTime":1926.105,"body":"It's everywhere all the time."},{"startTime":1926.155,"endTime":1927.735,"body":"I would always say you biscuits."},{"startTime":1927.765,"endTime":1930.595,"body":"You biscuits anyway."},{"startTime":1931.305,"endTime":1933.045,"body":"So the reasons why this is happening."},{"startTime":1933.195,"endTime":1938.455,"body":"but we can we did, we hit quite a few"},{"startTime":1933.195,"endTime":1938.455,"body":"actually I think the new generation really"},{"startTime":1938.685,"endTime":1940.695,"body":"should not be thinking about following."},{"startTime":1941.01,"endTime":1943.91,"body":"What the existing generation is"},{"startTime":1941.01,"endTime":1943.91,"body":"doing because otherwise we're"},{"startTime":1943.91,"endTime":1947.41,"body":"gonna end up exactly where we are"},{"startTime":1943.91,"endTime":1947.41,"body":"10 years 50 years from now, right?"},{"startTime":1947.56,"endTime":1948.82,"body":"So why are we here though?"},{"startTime":1948.86,"endTime":1949.67,"body":"that was your question."},{"startTime":1949.67,"endTime":1952.17,"body":"Why are we here for"},{"startTime":1949.67,"endTime":1952.17,"body":"whatever better expression?"},{"startTime":1952.23,"endTime":1956.815,"body":"there really wasn't a choice people"},{"startTime":1952.23,"endTime":1956.815,"body":"didn't see it Differently until now, think"},{"startTime":1956.825,"endTime":1960.905,"body":"about how corporate America was and some"},{"startTime":1956.825,"endTime":1960.905,"body":"still think it is, but they're mistaken."},{"startTime":1961.195,"endTime":1964.205,"body":"Think about how it was in the"},{"startTime":1961.195,"endTime":1964.205,"body":"fifties, sixties, maybe even the"},{"startTime":1964.205,"endTime":1966.445,"body":"seventies, we ruled the world, right?"},{"startTime":1966.475,"endTime":1968.865,"body":"We did, we had the"},{"startTime":1966.475,"endTime":1968.865,"body":"biggest car manufacturers."},{"startTime":1968.925,"endTime":1969.665,"body":"We don't anymore."},{"startTime":1969.695,"endTime":1972.375,"body":"Yeah but we invented too at the time."},{"startTime":1972.525,"endTime":1976.005,"body":"And you could say we still"},{"startTime":1972.525,"endTime":1976.005,"body":"invent, but we're not leading."},{"startTime":1976.155,"endTime":1977.185,"body":"In terms of market."},{"startTime":1977.525,"endTime":1980.355,"body":"I mean, people talk about electric"},{"startTime":1977.525,"endTime":1980.355,"body":"vehicles and things like that."},{"startTime":1980.365,"endTime":1983.945,"body":"Well, the leader in the market"},{"startTime":1980.365,"endTime":1983.945,"body":"right now in electric vehicles"},{"startTime":1984.095,"endTime":1985.835,"body":"is not an American company."},{"startTime":1985.885,"endTime":1987.595,"body":"We haven't had the fire."},{"startTime":1987.745,"endTime":1991.145,"body":"We haven't built that because everybody"},{"startTime":1987.745,"endTime":1991.145,"body":"was in it for themselves, and everybody"},{"startTime":1991.145,"endTime":1995.245,"body":"had a large piece of land, right, that"},{"startTime":1991.145,"endTime":1995.245,"body":"they could just set themselves up on."},{"startTime":1995.255,"endTime":1996.475,"body":"So all thrived."},{"startTime":1996.785,"endTime":2001.235,"body":"So anyway, it's just a function of"},{"startTime":1996.785,"endTime":2001.235,"body":"history, I think, why we are where we are."},{"startTime":2001.475,"endTime":2002.755,"body":"We haven't felt the pain."},{"startTime":2002.955,"endTime":2006.525,"body":"We haven't sat on a tack"},{"startTime":2002.955,"endTime":2006.525,"body":"to get up and say, Ow."},{"startTime":2006.675,"endTime":2008.015,"body":"Let's change this, right?"},{"startTime":2008.165,"endTime":2010.885,"body":"It's been too comfy for too"},{"startTime":2008.165,"endTime":2010.885,"body":"long and that may change."},{"startTime":2010.995,"endTime":2013.855,"body":"Well, I've been too comfy for too"},{"startTime":2010.995,"endTime":2013.855,"body":"long,  It's time to end the podcast."},{"startTime":2013.935,"endTime":2017.375,"body":"Alright, so if you're still with"},{"startTime":2013.935,"endTime":2017.375,"body":"us , congratulations first of all."},{"startTime":2017.405,"endTime":2018.155,"body":"It's your birthday?"},{"startTime":2018.405,"endTime":2018.695,"body":"Is it?"},{"startTime":2019.085,"endTime":2019.565,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2019.615,"endTime":2021.795,"body":"They got a treat today so I"},{"startTime":2019.615,"endTime":2021.795,"body":"figured it was their birthday."},{"startTime":2021.825,"endTime":2022.185,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":2022.215,"endTime":2025.955,"body":"Anyway, let us know what you want us"},{"startTime":2022.215,"endTime":2025.955,"body":"to talk about in the comments below."},{"startTime":2026.105,"endTime":2028.215,"body":"Please don't forget to like and subscribe."},{"startTime":2028.315,"endTime":2029.025,"body":"Ring that bell."}]}