{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":16.467,"body":"Fairly recently, we were at a networking"},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":16.467,"body":"event and I remember giving the advice"},{"startTime":16.617,"endTime":22.667,"body":"the product management advice of,"},{"startTime":16.617,"endTime":22.667,"body":"Hey, you need to understand makes a"},{"startTime":22.667,"endTime":28.217,"body":"good business run as opposed to like,"},{"startTime":22.667,"endTime":28.217,"body":"what makes a good agile team or a"},{"startTime":28.217,"endTime":32.597,"body":"good product management team or the"},{"startTime":28.217,"endTime":32.597,"body":"product operating model or whatever we"},{"startTime":32.597,"endTime":34.257,"body":"call agile transformations these days."},{"startTime":34.527,"endTime":38.347,"body":"I remember saying like listen,"},{"startTime":34.527,"endTime":38.347,"body":"that's all good and it's great."},{"startTime":38.497,"endTime":42.467,"body":", if you want to communicate with the"},{"startTime":38.497,"endTime":42.467,"body":"folks on the business side that are"},{"startTime":42.487,"endTime":43.637,"body":"in charge of running the business."},{"startTime":43.787,"endTime":45.657,"body":"You need to quote speak that language."},{"startTime":45.707,"endTime":49.427,"body":"You need to understand what running a"},{"startTime":45.707,"endTime":49.427,"body":"good business is about and then speak"},{"startTime":49.427,"endTime":53.907,"body":"the language of running a good business"},{"startTime":49.427,"endTime":53.907,"body":"rather than the things in the Azure"},{"startTime":53.927,"endTime":55.577,"body":"community that we like to talk about."},{"startTime":55.727,"endTime":57.827,"body":"It doesn't matter what you"},{"startTime":55.727,"endTime":57.827,"body":"say how you dress it up."},{"startTime":57.847,"endTime":61.347,"body":"You have to communicate in"},{"startTime":57.847,"endTime":61.347,"body":"terms that business understands"},{"startTime":61.497,"endTime":66.907,"body":"I wanted us to stop and talk a bit"},{"startTime":61.497,"endTime":66.907,"body":"about running a successful business"},{"startTime":67.057,"endTime":72.757,"body":"and how to go about lobbying for your"},{"startTime":67.057,"endTime":72.757,"body":"value as an agile coach or a scrum"},{"startTime":72.757,"endTime":76.317,"body":"master or product manager, someone in"},{"startTime":72.757,"endTime":76.317,"body":"the product operating model, right?"},{"startTime":76.317,"endTime":77.217,"body":"I wanted to talk about that."},{"startTime":77.227,"endTime":80.797,"body":"Lobbying for your value in a world"},{"startTime":77.227,"endTime":80.797,"body":"that only wants to talk about."},{"startTime":80.947,"endTime":85.107,"body":"ROI or treating things like"},{"startTime":80.947,"endTime":85.107,"body":"a, like a factory stamping out"},{"startTime":85.107,"endTime":86.427,"body":"widgets that kind of thing."},{"startTime":86.707,"endTime":90.027,"body":"The other way this came about was I"},{"startTime":86.707,"endTime":90.027,"body":"was in a discussion recently where"},{"startTime":90.087,"endTime":94.477,"body":"it was, Hey, I need to have two more"},{"startTime":90.087,"endTime":94.477,"body":"developers on my team and then the"},{"startTime":94.487,"endTime":97.555,"body":"business said, well, what, what would"},{"startTime":94.487,"endTime":97.555,"body":"the, if we added two developers,"},{"startTime":97.555,"endTime":99.917,"body":"your team, what would the ROI be?"},{"startTime":100.067,"endTime":103.267,"body":"of adding two developers to your"},{"startTime":100.067,"endTime":103.267,"body":"team in the product operating model"},{"startTime":103.297,"endTime":107.667,"body":"as a, and this is me in my capacity"},{"startTime":103.297,"endTime":107.667,"body":"as a product manager, which that"},{"startTime":107.667,"endTime":108.807,"body":"sort of stopped me in my tracks."},{"startTime":108.807,"endTime":110.157,"body":"And I was like, why am I here?"},{"startTime":110.307,"endTime":114.457,"body":"Like, I mean, on earth, basically a"},{"startTime":110.307,"endTime":114.457,"body":"philosophical discussion of why I'm here?"},{"startTime":114.667,"endTime":115.817,"body":"What is my purpose?"},{"startTime":115.837,"endTime":116.087,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":116.297,"endTime":116.557,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":116.557,"endTime":120.807,"body":"I mean, any time when you um,"},{"startTime":116.557,"endTime":120.807,"body":"for something leadership will"},{"startTime":120.807,"endTime":123.247,"body":"always think about that and"},{"startTime":120.807,"endTime":123.247,"body":"say, well, what do we get back?"},{"startTime":123.397,"endTime":125.787,"body":"You know, if we give you"},{"startTime":123.397,"endTime":125.787,"body":"what you're looking for."},{"startTime":125.947,"endTime":128.317,"body":"And a lot of times I find"},{"startTime":125.947,"endTime":128.317,"body":"this is actually a gap."},{"startTime":128.317,"endTime":132.387,"body":"a lot of times I find people gravitate"},{"startTime":128.317,"endTime":132.387,"body":"towards saying things like we can deliver"},{"startTime":132.387,"endTime":136.777,"body":"something faster or we can go to market"},{"startTime":132.387,"endTime":136.777,"body":"faster, but those phrases come out without"},{"startTime":136.927,"endTime":139.107,"body":"really some like credibility to them."},{"startTime":139.157,"endTime":142.937,"body":"How do you know adding two developers"},{"startTime":139.157,"endTime":142.937,"body":"is going to reach a cadence where"},{"startTime":142.937,"endTime":144.227,"body":"you can go to market quicker?"},{"startTime":144.277,"endTime":145.517,"body":"You don't really know that."},{"startTime":145.667,"endTime":145.987,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":145.987,"endTime":147.137,"body":"You're supposing a lot."},{"startTime":147.267,"endTime":151.047,"body":"Because first of all, as soon as you"},{"startTime":147.267,"endTime":151.047,"body":"get your two developers or whatever"},{"startTime":151.047,"endTime":155.007,"body":"it might be to join your team, there's"},{"startTime":151.047,"endTime":155.007,"body":"gonna be an immediate drop in their"},{"startTime":155.267,"endTime":158.397,"body":"effectiveness, their efficiency,"},{"startTime":155.267,"endTime":158.397,"body":"however you want to measure it, right?"},{"startTime":158.397,"endTime":161.097,"body":"Because they're learning and"},{"startTime":158.397,"endTime":161.097,"body":"then people that are there are"},{"startTime":161.097,"endTime":163.177,"body":"supporting them and onboarding them."},{"startTime":163.327,"endTime":166.377,"body":"So they're not delivering to"},{"startTime":163.327,"endTime":166.377,"body":"their full potential either."},{"startTime":166.527,"endTime":167.427,"body":"And that's gonna happen."},{"startTime":167.747,"endTime":171.367,"body":"So if leadership is looking at that"},{"startTime":167.747,"endTime":171.367,"body":"granularly, they'll say, right."},{"startTime":171.602,"endTime":175.392,"body":"Wait, you just said we're going to go to"},{"startTime":171.602,"endTime":175.392,"body":"market quicker, but actually the whole"},{"startTime":175.392,"endTime":177.622,"body":"thing is slowing down for us, right?"},{"startTime":177.812,"endTime":182.002,"body":"It can be difficult to navigate"},{"startTime":177.812,"endTime":182.002,"body":"it's I completely understand from"},{"startTime":182.002,"endTime":185.062,"body":"the executive perspective  our"},{"startTime":182.002,"endTime":185.062,"body":"previous podcast that probably went"},{"startTime":185.062,"endTime":186.762,"body":"up before this was a CFO, right?"},{"startTime":187.092,"endTime":190.892,"body":"from the perspective of the CFO Which"},{"startTime":187.092,"endTime":190.892,"body":"is funny because a lot of times that HR"},{"startTime":190.902,"endTime":192.792,"body":"management is like rolled under the CFO,"},{"startTime":192.842,"endTime":196.102,"body":"you don't know anything about"},{"startTime":192.842,"endTime":196.102,"body":"how effective teams are built"},{"startTime":196.102,"endTime":198.652,"body":"in human behavior and stuff like"},{"startTime":196.102,"endTime":198.652,"body":"that Like you're really about"},{"startTime":198.652,"endTime":200.202,"body":"crunching numbers, which is weird."},{"startTime":200.272,"endTime":204.052,"body":"So from the perspective of a finance"},{"startTime":200.272,"endTime":204.052,"body":"person in the organization they don't,"},{"startTime":204.112,"endTime":207.262,"body":"I mean, this is all the psychological"},{"startTime":204.112,"endTime":207.262,"body":"safety and all these kinds of"},{"startTime":207.282,"endTime":210.682,"body":"things that you're talking about,"},{"startTime":207.282,"endTime":210.682,"body":"what are the actual hard numbers?"},{"startTime":210.682,"endTime":213.322,"body":"Like, I'm going to"},{"startTime":210.682,"endTime":213.322,"body":"discount qualitative means."},{"startTime":213.362,"endTime":215.902,"body":"I want to know only"},{"startTime":213.362,"endTime":215.902,"body":"about quantitative means."},{"startTime":216.052,"endTime":217.032,"body":"Show me on paper."},{"startTime":217.222,"endTime":221.742,"body":"And that's very difficult for a lot"},{"startTime":217.222,"endTime":221.742,"body":"of people in the agile space, agile"},{"startTime":221.752,"endTime":226.802,"body":"coaches, scrum masters, product managers,"},{"startTime":221.752,"endTime":226.802,"body":"maybe even development team members"},{"startTime":227.052,"endTime":230.891,"body":"it's very difficult for them to say,"},{"startTime":227.052,"endTime":230.891,"body":"what are the quantitative metrics of we"},{"startTime":230.891,"endTime":233.081,"body":"all need to be involved in discovery?"},{"startTime":233.081,"endTime":233.707,"body":"Oh, snap."},{"startTime":233.707,"endTime":236.826,"body":"That's a qualitative like the"},{"startTime":233.707,"endTime":236.826,"body":"numbers break down I don't know."},{"startTime":236.886,"endTime":238.736,"body":"I don't know how to quantify that stuff."},{"startTime":238.746,"endTime":242.666,"body":"I think the closest people have come"},{"startTime":238.746,"endTime":242.666,"body":"in the past, I guess looking back"},{"startTime":242.676,"endTime":246.796,"body":"historically, is to look at people's"},{"startTime":242.676,"endTime":246.796,"body":"utilization rates and say, new people"},{"startTime":246.796,"endTime":251.246,"body":"joined, they were maybe only 60%, 50"},{"startTime":246.796,"endTime":251.246,"body":"percent utilized because they were"},{"startTime":251.246,"endTime":253.486,"body":"in training, and now we've got 85."},{"startTime":253.536,"endTime":254.266,"body":"Aren't we doing great?"},{"startTime":254.416,"endTime":258.996,"body":"Well, let's look, let's look at the"},{"startTime":254.416,"endTime":258.996,"body":"textbook metrics that you will use."},{"startTime":259.146,"endTime":264.096,"body":"When someone pins you down in these"},{"startTime":259.146,"endTime":264.096,"body":"categories  the textbook metrics are"},{"startTime":264.266,"endTime":270.176,"body":"velocity metrics sprint burndowns Some"},{"startTime":264.266,"endTime":270.176,"body":"people measure team happiness performance"},{"startTime":270.206,"endTime":274.916,"body":"of throughput performance of this cycle"},{"startTime":270.206,"endTime":274.916,"body":"versus last cycle or whatever Storypoint"},{"startTime":274.956,"endTime":278.776,"body":"completion rate say do ratios there"},{"startTime":274.956,"endTime":278.776,"body":"There's a lot of metrics sure that I"},{"startTime":278.776,"endTime":282.656,"body":"could throw into this category some some"},{"startTime":278.776,"endTime":282.656,"body":"actually are very good Some actually"},{"startTime":282.656,"endTime":286.546,"body":"are kind of crap, but there's a lot of"},{"startTime":282.656,"endTime":286.546,"body":"stuff I can throw into this category"},{"startTime":286.586,"endTime":290.666,"body":"of, Hey, like the how do I know that"},{"startTime":286.586,"endTime":290.666,"body":"we're being, we added two developers."},{"startTime":290.816,"endTime":295.096,"body":"How do I know that those two developers"},{"startTime":290.816,"endTime":295.096,"body":"that I added to your team of three,"},{"startTime":295.106,"endTime":298.196,"body":"for example, so we took your team"},{"startTime":295.106,"endTime":298.196,"body":"of three, we expanded it to five."},{"startTime":298.456,"endTime":300.88,"body":"How do we know that we made a."},{"startTime":301.03,"endTime":302.46,"body":"Substantial impact."},{"startTime":302.73,"endTime":307.12,"body":"So the, if I, if I took your team of"},{"startTime":302.73,"endTime":307.12,"body":"three and had two more developers,"},{"startTime":307.42,"endTime":312.5,"body":"theoretically, there should be a you"},{"startTime":307.42,"endTime":312.5,"body":"know, 166%, whatever these values the"},{"startTime":312.5,"endTime":315.84,"body":"velocity or, you know what did I just say?"},{"startTime":315.89,"endTime":319.25,"body":"throughput or something like that"},{"startTime":315.89,"endTime":319.25,"body":"should increase by nearly twofold"},{"startTime":319.445,"endTime":323.035,"body":"there are some things that you would"},{"startTime":319.445,"endTime":323.035,"body":"expect that maybe not immediately."},{"startTime":323.095,"endTime":324.595,"body":"this is something that people forget."},{"startTime":324.605,"endTime":328.825,"body":"It's not immediate, It takes time, but"},{"startTime":324.605,"endTime":328.825,"body":"if you just grant that and say, let's"},{"startTime":328.915,"endTime":333.155,"body":"wait a little bit long enough where these"},{"startTime":328.915,"endTime":333.155,"body":"people become familiar with what they're"},{"startTime":333.155,"endTime":336.585,"body":"doing and so forth, And then you look at"},{"startTime":333.155,"endTime":336.585,"body":"it and you're still going to fall short."},{"startTime":336.635,"endTime":340.725,"body":"there's reasons for that because there's"},{"startTime":336.635,"endTime":340.725,"body":"not a linear relationship between adding."},{"startTime":340.97,"endTime":343.55,"body":"Two developers and having 166."},{"startTime":343.55,"endTime":346.9,"body":"that's all straight line"},{"startTime":343.55,"endTime":346.9,"body":"linear extrapolation and"},{"startTime":347.2,"endTime":348.34,"body":"life doesn't work that way."},{"startTime":348.49,"endTime":351.92,"body":"Adding more people to the team"},{"startTime":348.49,"endTime":351.92,"body":"automatically adds more vectors"},{"startTime":351.94,"endTime":355.03,"body":"of communication, which drags"},{"startTime":351.94,"endTime":355.03,"body":"you down, So having three."},{"startTime":355.08,"endTime":355.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":355.37,"endTime":355.8,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":356.15,"endTime":357.16,"body":"I forget the number now."},{"startTime":357.16,"endTime":359.0,"body":"What was 39 vectors?"},{"startTime":359.0,"endTime":359.9,"body":"Adding five."},{"startTime":359.97,"endTime":362.21,"body":"It just takes it to a"},{"startTime":359.97,"endTime":362.21,"body":"different level altogether."},{"startTime":362.22,"endTime":365.45,"body":"So you have all of that getting"},{"startTime":362.22,"endTime":365.45,"body":"in the way, adding friction"},{"startTime":365.46,"endTime":366.7,"body":"to what they're trying to do."},{"startTime":366.85,"endTime":369.37,"body":"It's kind of, it acts"},{"startTime":366.85,"endTime":369.37,"body":"like headwind almost."},{"startTime":369.37,"endTime":373.31,"body":". And it's hard to explain that to people"},{"startTime":369.37,"endTime":373.31,"body":"that don't understand team dynamics."},{"startTime":373.54,"endTime":376.96,"body":"Well, if I'm forced to take the"},{"startTime":373.54,"endTime":376.96,"body":"Counterpoint on arguing agile."},{"startTime":377.23,"endTime":380.06,"body":"I would say the CEO doesn't"},{"startTime":377.23,"endTime":380.06,"body":"care about story points."},{"startTime":380.21,"endTime":380.58,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":380.58,"endTime":384.14,"body":"That the CFO doesn't care about"},{"startTime":380.58,"endTime":384.14,"body":"your vanity metrics or whatever."},{"startTime":384.19,"endTime":387.02,"body":"he only cares about your"},{"startTime":384.19,"endTime":387.02,"body":"delivery of business value."},{"startTime":387.02,"endTime":390.78,"body":"And I would say your delivery of"},{"startTime":387.02,"endTime":390.78,"body":"business value, not even in the terms"},{"startTime":390.78,"endTime":394.88,"body":"of like, well, the product manager"},{"startTime":390.78,"endTime":394.88,"body":"rates this at a business value of five."},{"startTime":394.88,"endTime":396.2,"body":"Like that, that's not"},{"startTime":394.88,"endTime":396.2,"body":"even what I'm saying."},{"startTime":396.2,"endTime":398.22,"body":"Cause that in and of"},{"startTime":396.2,"endTime":398.22,"body":"itself is a vanity metric."},{"startTime":398.51,"endTime":401.5,"body":"I'm talking  to get a metric"},{"startTime":398.51,"endTime":401.5,"body":"that's not a vanity metric."},{"startTime":401.5,"endTime":405.13,"body":"'cause I was gonna even say even surveys"},{"startTime":401.5,"endTime":405.13,"body":"of like customer satisfaction surveys"},{"startTime":405.13,"endTime":407.86,"body":"and stuff, even those are vanity metrics."},{"startTime":407.98,"endTime":413.67,"body":"Like the CFO wants to see renewals and"},{"startTime":407.98,"endTime":413.67,"body":"they want to see expansion of current"},{"startTime":413.67,"endTime":418.53,"body":"contracts and they want to see the"},{"startTime":413.67,"endTime":418.53,"body":"current customers paying more for the"},{"startTime":418.53,"endTime":420.18,"body":"services and expanding the services."},{"startTime":420.18,"endTime":420.27,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":420.27,"endTime":421.23,"body":"that's how they."},{"startTime":421.38,"endTime":424.41,"body":"Think that the customers are"},{"startTime":421.38,"endTime":424.41,"body":"happy with our solutions."},{"startTime":424.42,"endTime":425.84,"body":"They're spending more money."},{"startTime":426.09,"endTime":428.9,"body":"I know that that's sort"},{"startTime":426.09,"endTime":428.9,"body":"of a simplistic viewpoint."},{"startTime":428.9,"endTime":433.09,"body":"Cause the reality is if the customer"},{"startTime":428.9,"endTime":433.09,"body":"keeps paying the same dollar value"},{"startTime":433.1,"endTime":437.31,"body":"year over year in a B2B kind of deal,"},{"startTime":433.1,"endTime":437.31,"body":"that means they're happy if they're"},{"startTime":437.31,"endTime":440.18,"body":"staying with your solution and  they're"},{"startTime":437.31,"endTime":440.18,"body":"paying the same amount of money."},{"startTime":440.49,"endTime":444.42,"body":"Plus 3 percent year over year, just"},{"startTime":440.49,"endTime":444.42,"body":"renewing with no issue They're pretty"},{"startTime":444.42,"endTime":446.06,"body":"happy, but  you can go deeper than that."},{"startTime":446.11,"endTime":446.68,"body":"Let me stop there."},{"startTime":446.68,"endTime":446.91,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":446.91,"endTime":450.24,"body":"I mean, I just wanted to say CFOs,"},{"startTime":446.91,"endTime":450.24,"body":"et cetera, when they're looking at it"},{"startTime":450.25,"endTime":452.15,"body":"from that lens, it's not their fault."},{"startTime":452.18,"endTime":453.01,"body":"First of all, right."},{"startTime":453.02,"endTime":456.81,"body":"Just to kind of take their side for"},{"startTime":453.02,"endTime":456.81,"body":"a little bit, they were trained to"},{"startTime":456.96,"endTime":462.43,"body":"get ROI or whatever return on capital"},{"startTime":456.96,"endTime":462.43,"body":"invested return on investment generally."},{"startTime":462.58,"endTime":463.78,"body":"So what is the."},{"startTime":463.93,"endTime":467.67,"body":"Other side of the equation that"},{"startTime":463.93,"endTime":467.67,"body":"we can help fill in, So they can"},{"startTime":467.67,"endTime":469.6,"body":"feel like the money was well spent."},{"startTime":469.61,"endTime":471.95,"body":"So you could look at things like renewals."},{"startTime":472.11,"endTime":473.14,"body":"They spent money."},{"startTime":473.22,"endTime":477.18,"body":"it's not the two developers because they"},{"startTime":473.22,"endTime":477.18,"body":"net out to a certain dollar amount, right?"},{"startTime":477.22,"endTime":481.115,"body":"So let's say they spent 200,"},{"startTime":477.22,"endTime":481.115,"body":"000 to 250, whatever it might be"},{"startTime":481.115,"endTime":482.935,"body":"on two developers loaded cost."},{"startTime":483.115,"endTime":484.015,"body":"What did they get back?"},{"startTime":484.055,"endTime":487.415,"body":"And again, on the other side of the equal"},{"startTime":484.055,"endTime":487.415,"body":"sign, they want to see a dollar amount."},{"startTime":487.565,"endTime":490.175,"body":"So we can talk about"},{"startTime":487.565,"endTime":490.175,"body":"story points, all that."},{"startTime":490.185,"endTime":492.215,"body":"It doesn't compute in their mind, right?"},{"startTime":492.245,"endTime":494.545,"body":"Well, the only thing that"},{"startTime":492.245,"endTime":494.545,"body":"computes is a dollar amount."},{"startTime":494.695,"endTime":496.205,"body":"So how do you get to that point?"},{"startTime":496.355,"endTime":498.855,"body":"You can do things like"},{"startTime":496.355,"endTime":498.855,"body":"given the benefit of."},{"startTime":499.085,"endTime":502.315,"body":"time that you've given these"},{"startTime":499.085,"endTime":502.315,"body":"two newcomers to get used to the"},{"startTime":502.315,"endTime":504.575,"body":"system and start being productive."},{"startTime":504.725,"endTime":507.085,"body":"You can look at things like"},{"startTime":504.725,"endTime":507.085,"body":"shortened time to market."},{"startTime":507.235,"endTime":508.125,"body":"Can you measure that?"},{"startTime":508.215,"endTime":510.635,"body":"If you can measure that,"},{"startTime":508.215,"endTime":510.635,"body":"what does that mean?"},{"startTime":510.945,"endTime":511.265,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":511.545,"endTime":514.485,"body":"So CFOs understand the"},{"startTime":511.545,"endTime":514.485,"body":"time value of money."},{"startTime":514.505,"endTime":519.905,"body":"They understand getting revenue now"},{"startTime":514.505,"endTime":519.905,"body":"versus Now plus whatever that time frame"},{"startTime":519.905,"endTime":523.705,"body":"might be that can be on the other side"},{"startTime":519.905,"endTime":523.705,"body":"of the equation So you could say we"},{"startTime":523.705,"endTime":528.235,"body":"got this thing out to market quicker"},{"startTime":523.705,"endTime":528.235,"body":"We got adoption rates up for example,"},{"startTime":528.325,"endTime":529.705,"body":"things like that could help you."},{"startTime":529.855,"endTime":533.445,"body":"Yep Getting churn rates down"},{"startTime":529.855,"endTime":533.445,"body":"as well is a great category."},{"startTime":533.585,"endTime":536.375,"body":"Here is constantly users who"},{"startTime":533.585,"endTime":536.375,"body":"have churned To say, Hey,  what"},{"startTime":536.425,"endTime":537.495,"body":"could we be doing better?"},{"startTime":537.645,"endTime":540.075,"body":"And then to really listen"},{"startTime":537.645,"endTime":540.075,"body":"to what they're saying."},{"startTime":540.075,"endTime":543.365,"body":"I mean, that is a trade off here"},{"startTime":540.075,"endTime":543.365,"body":"it doesn't make any sense to throw"},{"startTime":543.365,"endTime":546.935,"body":"out a general survey because the"},{"startTime":543.365,"endTime":546.935,"body":"survey becomes a vanity metric."},{"startTime":546.935,"endTime":550.195,"body":"If you're not willing to really"},{"startTime":546.935,"endTime":550.195,"body":"internalize what users are saying Hey,"},{"startTime":550.195,"endTime":552.985,"body":"you're really bad at this Oh, are we?"},{"startTime":553.135,"endTime":554.885,"body":"You know, don't make"},{"startTime":553.135,"endTime":554.885,"body":"excuses, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":555.175,"endTime":556.665,"body":"the CEO doesn't care about story points."},{"startTime":556.715,"endTime":559.925,"body":"It could be the title of this"},{"startTime":556.715,"endTime":559.925,"body":"episode of the podcast is the CEO"},{"startTime":559.975,"endTime":561.115,"body":"doesn't care about story points."},{"startTime":561.415,"endTime":562.835,"body":"Because so many people will say."},{"startTime":563.07,"endTime":566.64,"body":"Well, the CEO when they get, by the time"},{"startTime":563.07,"endTime":566.64,"body":"they get involved, they just want to"},{"startTime":566.64,"endTime":568.53,"body":"know when's this going to be done, right?"},{"startTime":568.66,"endTime":569.3,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":569.34,"endTime":573.97,"body":"Which I feel like is, is been the, if I"},{"startTime":569.34,"endTime":573.97,"body":"could have a tagline to my career is like"},{"startTime":574.16,"endTime":576.41,"body":"Brian Orlando, product manager tagline."},{"startTime":576.45,"endTime":577.42,"body":"When's it going to be done?"},{"startTime":577.54,"endTime":579.78,"body":"It can be done as soon as possible."},{"startTime":579.93,"endTime":583.25,"body":"If you're okay with the bare"},{"startTime":579.93,"endTime":583.25,"body":"minimum, if you want to build the"},{"startTime":583.25,"endTime":586.61,"body":"whole world three times over or"},{"startTime":583.25,"endTime":586.61,"body":"whatever to make your customer happy."},{"startTime":586.82,"endTime":588.14,"body":"That's gonna take a long time."},{"startTime":588.29,"endTime":590.3,"body":"I feel we should do a whole"},{"startTime":588.29,"endTime":590.3,"body":"different podcast under the"},{"startTime":590.3,"endTime":592.31,"body":"banner of when's it gonna be done?"},{"startTime":592.58,"endTime":595.004,"body":"and that should be the title and"},{"startTime":592.58,"endTime":595.004,"body":"the agenda of the whole podcast"},{"startTime":595.004,"endTime":596.204,"body":"is dealing with the question."},{"startTime":596.504,"endTime":597.044,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":597.044,"endTime":597.047,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":597.047,"endTime":597.404,"body":"What's gonna be done?"},{"startTime":597.644,"endTime":598.994,"body":"that's gonna be on my gravestone."},{"startTime":598.994,"endTime":599.569,"body":"Hashtag done."},{"startTime":599.719,"endTime":601.339,"body":"Like finally done."},{"startTime":601.339,"endTime":601.639,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":601.639,"endTime":604.26,"body":"This is it, if you think about"},{"startTime":601.639,"endTime":604.26,"body":"SMBs you think about small,"},{"startTime":604.26,"endTime":605.13,"body":"medium sized businesses."},{"startTime":605.28,"endTime":608.58,"body":"The when's it going to be done like"},{"startTime":605.28,"endTime":608.58,"body":"you actually can't answer when's"},{"startTime":608.58,"endTime":613.8,"body":"it going to be done because the"},{"startTime":608.58,"endTime":613.8,"body":"executives in SMBs They probably"},{"startTime":613.8,"endTime":618.34,"body":"have a lot of experience making the"},{"startTime":613.8,"endTime":618.34,"body":"call of it's done enough for now."},{"startTime":618.41,"endTime":621.16,"body":"We've collected the revenue We've"},{"startTime":618.41,"endTime":621.16,"body":"signed the deal we've and then we"},{"startTime":621.16,"endTime":624.89,"body":"can move on we can write off to,"},{"startTime":621.16,"endTime":624.89,"body":"to greener pastures or whatever."},{"startTime":625.08,"endTime":625.64,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":625.65,"endTime":630.74,"body":"And I think it's that particular aspect,"},{"startTime":625.65,"endTime":630.74,"body":"it may not be limited to SMBs, but you"},{"startTime":630.74,"endTime":635.64,"body":"know, SMBs are living day to day almost"},{"startTime":630.74,"endTime":635.64,"body":"compared to those large companies, right?"},{"startTime":635.68,"endTime":636.71,"body":"That have deeper pockets."},{"startTime":636.72,"endTime":636.96,"body":"So."},{"startTime":637.11,"endTime":637.53,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":637.53,"endTime":640.22,"body":"They're experienced enough to"},{"startTime":637.53,"endTime":640.22,"body":"say, let's get this thing done."},{"startTime":640.25,"endTime":640.98,"body":"It's done enough."},{"startTime":641.0,"endTime":641.97,"body":"Let's get it to market."},{"startTime":642.01,"endTime":643.97,"body":"Let's capitalize on it as much as we can."},{"startTime":644.13,"endTime":645.34,"body":"So yeah, that makes sense to me."},{"startTime":645.52,"endTime":649.79,"body":"to connect this with a reality,"},{"startTime":645.52,"endTime":649.79,"body":"I remember I was, I was at"},{"startTime":649.79,"endTime":651.11,"body":"a, I was at a small company."},{"startTime":651.11,"endTime":653.78,"body":"I say small company, meaning less"},{"startTime":651.11,"endTime":653.78,"body":"than 30 people, that qualifies."},{"startTime":653.805,"endTime":656.755,"body":"And, they, at small companies,"},{"startTime":653.805,"endTime":656.755,"body":"sometimes you run into  the"},{"startTime":656.755,"endTime":658.45,"body":"situation where like one."},{"startTime":658.6,"endTime":664.13,"body":"Very large customer dictated 60"},{"startTime":658.6,"endTime":664.13,"body":"percent of their business one"},{"startTime":664.13,"endTime":667.45,"body":"very large customer represented"},{"startTime":664.13,"endTime":667.45,"body":"about 60 percent of their revenue."},{"startTime":667.65,"endTime":670.3,"body":"so basically when this customer picked"},{"startTime":667.65,"endTime":670.3,"body":"up the phone and said, we're not happy"},{"startTime":670.3,"endTime":673.874,"body":"because we don't have this thing,"},{"startTime":670.3,"endTime":673.874,"body":"or because this feature is not being"},{"startTime":673.874,"endTime":678.202,"body":"delivered fast enough the company"},{"startTime":673.874,"endTime":678.202,"body":"basically cleared the deck to make that"},{"startTime":678.202,"endTime":680.712,"body":"thing happen because it's more than half."},{"startTime":681.027,"endTime":683.277,"body":"Of their revenue is tied"},{"startTime":681.027,"endTime":683.277,"body":"up with their one customer."},{"startTime":683.317,"endTime":687.017,"body":"Cause so at something like you don't"},{"startTime":683.317,"endTime":687.017,"body":"want to be in that scenario, generally"},{"startTime":687.017,"endTime":690.127,"body":"speaking, . A lot of nuance here,"},{"startTime":687.017,"endTime":690.127,"body":"It's not necessarily bad if you think"},{"startTime":690.137,"endTime":693.207,"body":"about it, like you have one customer,"},{"startTime":690.137,"endTime":693.207,"body":"like you have one big voice to listen"},{"startTime":693.207,"endTime":697.137,"body":"to everyone else that onboards as"},{"startTime":693.207,"endTime":697.137,"body":"a customer with your company should"},{"startTime":697.137,"endTime":699.467,"body":"know like, Hey, we service this one."},{"startTime":699.677,"endTime":703.247,"body":"As long as you're on board with what"},{"startTime":699.677,"endTime":703.247,"body":"this one big customer wants Hey."},{"startTime":703.442,"endTime":703.907,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":703.907,"endTime":707.467,"body":"I mean, it's not that hard to keep"},{"startTime":703.907,"endTime":707.467,"body":"one customer happy compared to trying"},{"startTime":707.467,"endTime":709.237,"body":"to keep multiple customers happy."},{"startTime":709.237,"endTime":709.507,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":709.512,"endTime":709.522,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":709.687,"endTime":711.817,"body":"So if you can do that,"},{"startTime":709.687,"endTime":711.817,"body":"that's your key to survival."},{"startTime":711.817,"endTime":713.347,"body":"Maybe you can thrive off of that."},{"startTime":713.497,"endTime":717.607,"body":"But it's also the case where"},{"startTime":713.497,"endTime":717.607,"body":"you make them unhappy in the"},{"startTime":717.607,"endTime":719.437,"body":"slightest and you have competition."},{"startTime":719.677,"endTime":720.907,"body":"Well, you're rolling the dice."},{"startTime":720.907,"endTime":721.177,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":721.327,"endTime":725.832,"body":"But the issue with this company was"},{"startTime":721.327,"endTime":725.832,"body":"that, Their very large customer was"},{"startTime":725.862,"endTime":729.622,"body":"unhappy because they could never"},{"startTime":725.862,"endTime":729.622,"body":"understand when features were coming out."},{"startTime":729.852,"endTime":732.302,"body":"They could never understand how"},{"startTime":729.852,"endTime":732.302,"body":"the company prioritized things."},{"startTime":732.302,"endTime":736.222,"body":"They could never understand where"},{"startTime":732.302,"endTime":736.222,"body":"the things that were their pain"},{"startTime":736.222,"endTime":738.002,"body":"points landed on the roadmap."},{"startTime":738.152,"endTime":740.822,"body":"And , that's because The company"},{"startTime":738.152,"endTime":740.822,"body":"never projected this stuff."},{"startTime":740.822,"endTime":745.082,"body":"They didn't have a culture of"},{"startTime":740.822,"endTime":745.082,"body":"transparency with their vendors"},{"startTime":745.082,"endTime":746.302,"body":"and their customers and everybody."},{"startTime":746.512,"endTime":749.262,"body":"And I had to build all that"},{"startTime":746.512,"endTime":749.262,"body":"as a first product manager."},{"startTime":749.412,"endTime":754.022,"body":"So once I built all that, part of building"},{"startTime":749.412,"endTime":754.022,"body":"it is you have to get a customer group"},{"startTime":754.022,"endTime":756.912,"body":"together, or the easier one is just"},{"startTime":754.022,"endTime":756.912,"body":"to bring all the customers to you in"},{"startTime":756.912,"endTime":758.582,"body":"a kind of a panel on a regular basis."},{"startTime":758.592,"endTime":758.832,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":759.127,"endTime":761.857,"body":"The harder way, I don't know if one of"},{"startTime":759.127,"endTime":761.857,"body":"these is better than the other, but the"},{"startTime":761.867,"endTime":766.207,"body":"harder way is to go to each customer one"},{"startTime":761.867,"endTime":766.207,"body":"on one on a regular basis every week or"},{"startTime":766.207,"endTime":767.637,"body":"whatever, have a lot of touch points."},{"startTime":767.787,"endTime":771.577,"body":"You end up doing a lot of customer"},{"startTime":767.787,"endTime":771.577,"body":"success type of customer support"},{"startTime":771.587,"endTime":773.247,"body":"type of activities in that."},{"startTime":773.257,"endTime":776.637,"body":"But in that company, I ended"},{"startTime":773.257,"endTime":776.637,"body":"up having to build these."},{"startTime":776.787,"endTime":781.327,"body":"Grassroots with each customer kind"},{"startTime":776.787,"endTime":781.327,"body":"of discussions and talk about their"},{"startTime":781.327,"endTime":784.787,"body":"pain points, their needs and stuff"},{"startTime":781.327,"endTime":784.787,"body":"like that from the platform Because I"},{"startTime":784.787,"endTime":789.107,"body":"built those conversations, because I"},{"startTime":784.787,"endTime":789.107,"body":"built those forums when I transitioned"},{"startTime":789.107,"endTime":792.377,"body":"out as a product manager, I could"},{"startTime":789.107,"endTime":792.377,"body":"transition the other product manager"},{"startTime":792.437,"endTime":797.927,"body":"into the forums over time as I"},{"startTime":792.437,"endTime":797.927,"body":"transitioned out, and they wouldn't"},{"startTime":797.927,"endTime":799.847,"body":"inherit the customer relationship."},{"startTime":799.997,"endTime":803.687,"body":"and as long as we are talking to"},{"startTime":799.997,"endTime":803.687,"body":"the people that directly represent"},{"startTime":803.687,"endTime":807.012,"body":"the customer every week, I"},{"startTime":803.687,"endTime":807.012,"body":"think at that company was every."},{"startTime":807.162,"endTime":808.612,"body":"it might've been every"},{"startTime":807.162,"endTime":808.612,"body":"other week or every week."},{"startTime":808.612,"endTime":809.652,"body":"I can't remember what it was."},{"startTime":809.882,"endTime":812.082,"body":"It was very compared to like"},{"startTime":809.882,"endTime":812.082,"body":"working with the government."},{"startTime":812.112,"endTime":813.582,"body":"It was a lot more frequently."},{"startTime":813.832,"endTime":816.622,"body":"Once every month or"},{"startTime":813.832,"endTime":816.622,"body":"six weeks at the least."},{"startTime":816.622,"endTime":820.292,"body":"But we built all that from"},{"startTime":816.622,"endTime":820.292,"body":"scratch, basically a customer and"},{"startTime":820.292,"endTime":822.632,"body":"product community talking about."},{"startTime":822.832,"endTime":826.272,"body":"What the pain points were and talking"},{"startTime":822.832,"endTime":826.272,"body":"about what was on our road map dealing"},{"startTime":826.272,"endTime":829.472,"body":"with those pain points and then"},{"startTime":826.272,"endTime":829.472,"body":"like that, the nice thing about that"},{"startTime":829.472,"endTime":833.312,"body":"was it directly led into our demos."},{"startTime":833.567,"endTime":836.717,"body":"So we brought those customers that we"},{"startTime":833.567,"endTime":836.717,"body":"were talking about their pain points and"},{"startTime":836.807,"endTime":838.397,"body":"basically doing discovery work, right?"},{"startTime":838.547,"endTime":841.867,"body":"We brought them directly to"},{"startTime":838.547,"endTime":841.867,"body":"our development team as they"},{"startTime":841.897,"endTime":843.067,"body":"demoed the new features."},{"startTime":843.217,"endTime":848.037,"body":"So it was super easy to make that leap"},{"startTime":843.217,"endTime":848.037,"body":"into Bringing the development team into"},{"startTime":848.037,"endTime":849.627,"body":"the process of talking to customers."},{"startTime":849.677,"endTime":852.947,"body":"Cause before I was their first product"},{"startTime":849.677,"endTime":852.947,"body":"manager at this particular company I'm"},{"startTime":852.947,"endTime":855.937,"body":"talking about, they did not have their"},{"startTime":852.947,"endTime":855.937,"body":"developers talk directly to customers"},{"startTime":855.937,"endTime":860.487,"body":"that the customer talked to some either"},{"startTime":855.937,"endTime":860.487,"body":"salesperson or seal executive or customer"},{"startTime":860.487,"endTime":864.037,"body":"support or customer success or whatever"},{"startTime":860.487,"endTime":864.037,"body":"they're called, and then it would"},{"startTime":864.047,"endTime":867.517,"body":"be filtered back to the development"},{"startTime":864.047,"endTime":867.517,"body":"team, but the problem with filtering."},{"startTime":867.667,"endTime":872.167,"body":"Is you sort of lose the prioritization"},{"startTime":867.667,"endTime":872.167,"body":"or the real pain of the customer, you"},{"startTime":872.167,"endTime":873.817,"body":"lose that in the filtering process."},{"startTime":874.057,"endTime":874.997,"body":"And I didn't like that."},{"startTime":875.077,"endTime":879.447,"body":"so I worked with the customer"},{"startTime":875.077,"endTime":879.447,"body":"success and sales and the C level"},{"startTime":879.447,"endTime":882.727,"body":"executives to talk directly to"},{"startTime":879.447,"endTime":882.727,"body":"the customers on a regular basis."},{"startTime":882.757,"endTime":883.727,"body":"I didn't cut anyone off."},{"startTime":883.727,"endTime":885.427,"body":"They were all invited to the sessions."},{"startTime":885.577,"endTime":887.077,"body":"But I felt super strongly about that."},{"startTime":887.077,"endTime":890.067,"body":"Invaluable for the developers to"},{"startTime":887.077,"endTime":890.067,"body":"talk directly to the customers."},{"startTime":890.097,"endTime":894.187,"body":"I mean that in specifically in that"},{"startTime":890.097,"endTime":894.187,"body":"scenario you know, where you have"},{"startTime":894.207,"endTime":897.457,"body":"one major customer supporting you"},{"startTime":894.207,"endTime":897.457,"body":"basically, that's your lifeline."},{"startTime":897.667,"endTime":900.087,"body":"I was in that situation"},{"startTime":897.667,"endTime":900.087,"body":"with a small software house."},{"startTime":900.237,"endTime":903.227,"body":"Wasn't that much bigger than the"},{"startTime":900.237,"endTime":903.227,"body":"company size you mentioned and they had"},{"startTime":903.237,"endTime":907.357,"body":"one big customer It was of the order"},{"startTime":903.237,"endTime":907.357,"body":"of 60 70 percent of their business."},{"startTime":907.387,"endTime":911.927,"body":"the customer had multiple locations with"},{"startTime":907.387,"endTime":911.927,"body":"subsidiaries and but this software house"},{"startTime":911.957,"endTime":916.722,"body":"sputter along for a while struggle to get"},{"startTime":911.957,"endTime":916.722,"body":"other customers But they ran into trouble"},{"startTime":916.722,"endTime":922.312,"body":"financially and it was almost to the point"},{"startTime":916.722,"endTime":922.312,"body":"where they were running on fumes so the"},{"startTime":922.312,"endTime":927.682,"body":"customer decided that they had enough"},{"startTime":922.312,"endTime":927.682,"body":"Installations at their subsidiaries of"},{"startTime":927.712,"endTime":931.662,"body":"the software that this software house"},{"startTime":927.712,"endTime":931.662,"body":"provided And he was doing what they wanted"},{"startTime":931.662,"endTime":933.742,"body":"it to do so they were not unhappy Right."},{"startTime":933.752,"endTime":937.332,"body":"First of all but they didn't want to,"},{"startTime":933.752,"endTime":937.332,"body":"they didn't want the company to go under."},{"startTime":937.482,"endTime":939.302,"body":"They wanted support for a while."},{"startTime":939.302,"endTime":941.222,"body":"Even if they could replace"},{"startTime":939.302,"endTime":941.222,"body":"the system, it would take them"},{"startTime":941.222,"endTime":943.032,"body":"years, two, three years minimum."},{"startTime":943.182,"endTime":946.892,"body":"This is how snail paced the"},{"startTime":943.182,"endTime":946.892,"body":"publishing world was back in there."},{"startTime":946.892,"endTime":948.402,"body":"I don't think it's"},{"startTime":946.892,"endTime":948.402,"body":"changed a whole lot now."},{"startTime":948.552,"endTime":953.242,"body":"So what they decided to do is provide"},{"startTime":948.552,"endTime":953.242,"body":"some seed corn funding to the company."},{"startTime":953.392,"endTime":953.692,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":953.972,"endTime":957.592,"body":"And the company was basically"},{"startTime":953.972,"endTime":957.592,"body":"kept solvent by the seed corn"},{"startTime":957.592,"endTime":959.052,"body":"funding, luck would have it."},{"startTime":959.062,"endTime":963.252,"body":"They then landed a couple of other orders"},{"startTime":959.062,"endTime":963.252,"body":"that were sizable nowhere near this other"},{"startTime":963.312,"endTime":966.922,"body":"the main customer, but it was enough"},{"startTime":963.312,"endTime":966.922,"body":"where they could get out you know, from"},{"startTime":966.942,"endTime":968.952,"body":"under the heavy burden, so to speak."},{"startTime":969.102,"endTime":971.832,"body":"So it can work for you if you"},{"startTime":969.102,"endTime":971.832,"body":"keep your customer happy here."},{"startTime":972.112,"endTime":974.112,"body":"We said the CEO doesn't"},{"startTime":972.112,"endTime":974.112,"body":"care about story points."},{"startTime":974.142,"endTime":974.752,"body":"Well, guess what?"},{"startTime":974.762,"endTime":975.702,"body":"The customer doesn't either."},{"startTime":975.782,"endTime":979.062,"body":"The CFO also doesn't care about like"},{"startTime":975.782,"endTime":979.062,"body":"your release map or whatever, but"},{"startTime":979.212,"endTime":983.082,"body":"what they do care about is how you're"},{"startTime":979.212,"endTime":983.082,"body":"managing the customer relationship."},{"startTime":983.232,"endTime":985.732,"body":"They certainly, like I've seen"},{"startTime":983.232,"endTime":985.732,"body":"many customer relationship"},{"startTime":985.912,"endTime":987.382,"body":"business development or sales."},{"startTime":987.442,"endTime":991.462,"body":"Like rag reports, red, amber,"},{"startTime":987.442,"endTime":991.462,"body":"green, like this is the status"},{"startTime":991.462,"endTime":992.712,"body":"of the contract or whatever,"},{"startTime":992.762,"endTime":994.602,"body":"I've seen many of those type of reports."},{"startTime":994.622,"endTime":998.852,"body":"and I feel if you really know these"},{"startTime":994.622,"endTime":998.852,"body":"people, if you really know the people"},{"startTime":998.932,"endTime":1000.372,"body":"on the other side of the contract,"},{"startTime":1000.572,"endTime":1003.862,"body":", if you're really serving the values"},{"startTime":1000.572,"endTime":1003.862,"body":"of agile you really care about the"},{"startTime":1003.862,"endTime":1005.442,"body":"people rather than the contract."},{"startTime":1005.632,"endTime":1007.752,"body":"All this kind of falls by the wayside."},{"startTime":1008.102,"endTime":1010.352,"body":"It's the same thing I say"},{"startTime":1008.102,"endTime":1010.352,"body":"about   if you're delivering."},{"startTime":1010.502,"endTime":1014.092,"body":"Working software on a regular cadence,"},{"startTime":1010.502,"endTime":1014.092,"body":"no matter what that regular cadence"},{"startTime":1014.102,"endTime":1019.182,"body":"is monthly, weekly, biweekly, every"},{"startTime":1014.102,"endTime":1019.182,"body":"two days, every three days, it doesn't"},{"startTime":1019.182,"endTime":1023.922,"body":"really matter how minor the releases"},{"startTime":1019.182,"endTime":1023.922,"body":"are, but if customers know that every"},{"startTime":1023.932,"endTime":1026.892,"body":"three days, every week, every two weeks,"},{"startTime":1023.932,"endTime":1026.892,"body":"whatever the cadence you picked out"},{"startTime":1026.892,"endTime":1029.222,"body":"is, they're going to get new things."},{"startTime":1029.372,"endTime":1032.592,"body":"Obviously the trap is you need to send"},{"startTime":1029.372,"endTime":1032.592,"body":"some kind of memo every two weeks."},{"startTime":1032.592,"endTime":1033.207,"body":"It says, Hey, you know what?"},{"startTime":1033.357,"endTime":1034.677,"body":"This is two weeks has passed."},{"startTime":1034.697,"endTime":1036.327,"body":"This is your new these are"},{"startTime":1034.697,"endTime":1036.327,"body":"your new things, right?"},{"startTime":1036.327,"endTime":1040.887,"body":"If they know and if they can set their"},{"startTime":1036.327,"endTime":1040.887,"body":"watch to i'm going to get new things every"},{"startTime":1040.887,"endTime":1043.827,"body":"two weeks all this stuff that we're about"},{"startTime":1040.887,"endTime":1043.827,"body":"to talk about it all kinds of falls by the"},{"startTime":1043.827,"endTime":1046.357,"body":"wayside because they they trust you Now"},{"startTime":1046.417,"endTime":1047.847,"body":"you're going to give them something new."},{"startTime":1047.997,"endTime":1052.427,"body":"What it is is negotiable, but they're"},{"startTime":1047.997,"endTime":1052.427,"body":"certain that you're going to give them"},{"startTime":1052.427,"endTime":1055.257,"body":"something that's cool and that works"},{"startTime":1052.427,"endTime":1055.257,"body":"for them and then helps them out."},{"startTime":1055.587,"endTime":1058.567,"body":"And then  maybe occasionally"},{"startTime":1055.587,"endTime":1058.567,"body":"they can complain enough and"},{"startTime":1058.567,"endTime":1060.947,"body":"say maybe my biggest pain point."},{"startTime":1061.247,"endTime":1064.717,"body":"We'll get resolved in two weeks , because"},{"startTime":1061.247,"endTime":1064.717,"body":"the alternate to that is like, we"},{"startTime":1064.717,"endTime":1067.647,"body":"just don't believe that you're going"},{"startTime":1064.717,"endTime":1067.647,"body":"to solve any for example, I'll give"},{"startTime":1067.647,"endTime":1069.867,"body":"you an example of a software vendor."},{"startTime":1069.897,"endTime":1072.257,"body":"I don't trust to resolve"},{"startTime":1069.897,"endTime":1072.257,"body":"any of my pain points."},{"startTime":1072.257,"endTime":1074.215,"body":"Oh, hashtag boy."},{"startTime":1074.215,"endTime":1075.867,"body":"I haven't done that in a while."},{"startTime":1076.167,"endTime":1078.537,"body":"I don't believe they"},{"startTime":1076.167,"endTime":1078.537,"body":"will resolve anything."},{"startTime":1078.607,"endTime":1081.687,"body":"I any of my pain points because"},{"startTime":1078.607,"endTime":1081.687,"body":"I don't think they care about me."},{"startTime":1081.837,"endTime":1084.607,"body":"Well, you, you bring up a point"},{"startTime":1081.837,"endTime":1084.607,"body":"there I think ultimately it"},{"startTime":1084.607,"endTime":1085.817,"body":"comes down to building trust."},{"startTime":1085.967,"endTime":1090.737,"body":"The company has built enough trust with"},{"startTime":1085.967,"endTime":1090.737,"body":"customers by delivering on a fixed cadence"},{"startTime":1090.777,"endTime":1092.987,"body":"or a regular, whatever regularity it is."},{"startTime":1093.257,"endTime":1095.467,"body":"Then they know that something's"},{"startTime":1093.257,"endTime":1095.467,"body":"going to happen, right?"},{"startTime":1095.617,"endTime":1097.672,"body":"And it keeps them it"},{"startTime":1095.617,"endTime":1097.672,"body":"keeps them interested."},{"startTime":1098.012,"endTime":1102.502,"body":"It keeps them from jumping ship as well,"},{"startTime":1098.012,"endTime":1102.502,"body":"because it's the devil you know, but at"},{"startTime":1102.502,"endTime":1103.742,"body":"least they're going to get something."},{"startTime":1103.752,"endTime":1104.412,"body":"They know that."},{"startTime":1104.562,"endTime":1106.882,"body":"So there's something"},{"startTime":1104.562,"endTime":1106.882,"body":"there to be said for that."},{"startTime":1106.882,"endTime":1109.35,"body":"Even in the next category, the ROI."},{"startTime":1109.35,"endTime":1116.28,"body":"There's no ROI calculation on, , we"},{"startTime":1109.35,"endTime":1116.28,"body":"have regular recurring meetings with the"},{"startTime":1116.28,"endTime":1121.26,"body":"vendors or with the customers they trust"},{"startTime":1116.28,"endTime":1121.26,"body":"us enough to tell us their real business"},{"startTime":1121.26,"endTime":1124.71,"body":"problems every week or however every"},{"startTime":1121.26,"endTime":1124.71,"body":"two weeks, whatever the thing is, right?"},{"startTime":1124.96,"endTime":1129.57,"body":"Enough to be included in our sprint"},{"startTime":1124.96,"endTime":1129.57,"body":"reviews where they're attending our sprint"},{"startTime":1129.57,"endTime":1133.34,"body":"reviews and giving us critical information"},{"startTime":1129.57,"endTime":1133.34,"body":"about the software we're building to help"},{"startTime":1133.43,"endTime":1135.87,"body":"us be more valuable into their workflows."},{"startTime":1136.07,"endTime":1137.05,"body":"They trust us."},{"startTime":1137.3,"endTime":1143.41,"body":"There is no ROI calculation that's"},{"startTime":1137.3,"endTime":1143.41,"body":"going to factor that trust level in."},{"startTime":1143.63,"endTime":1145.53,"body":"So you're either, if"},{"startTime":1143.63,"endTime":1145.53,"body":"you're a product manager."},{"startTime":1145.82,"endTime":1150.22,"body":"You can be a developer on a team and"},{"startTime":1145.82,"endTime":1150.22,"body":"understand that this regular back and"},{"startTime":1150.22,"endTime":1155.0,"body":"forth communication is what will make"},{"startTime":1150.22,"endTime":1155.0,"body":"the world turn for your company and"},{"startTime":1155.0,"endTime":1159.12,"body":"therefore be way more valuable than any"},{"startTime":1155.0,"endTime":1159.12,"body":"other people that are just kind of ticking"},{"startTime":1159.12,"endTime":1160.88,"body":"a box or punching a clock or whatever."},{"startTime":1160.88,"endTime":1165.0,"body":"But the reason I bring up ROI is"},{"startTime":1160.88,"endTime":1165.0,"body":"because I want to pivot us to a category"},{"startTime":1165.0,"endTime":1166.93,"body":"that people really struggle with."},{"startTime":1167.08,"endTime":1170.86,"body":"Like where we started in this podcast, we"},{"startTime":1167.08,"endTime":1170.86,"body":"said, Hey, I Maybe I'm a product manager"},{"startTime":1171.08,"endTime":1175.39,"body":"and I have this road map and I know that"},{"startTime":1171.08,"endTime":1175.39,"body":"if I can accelerate this road map it'll"},{"startTime":1175.39,"endTime":1178.2,"body":"be a lot better for the customers because"},{"startTime":1175.39,"endTime":1178.2,"body":"maybe I'm meeting with them every week and"},{"startTime":1178.2,"endTime":1183.09,"body":"maybe I have a team of 2, 3, 4 developers"},{"startTime":1178.2,"endTime":1183.09,"body":"and I think if I just added two more"},{"startTime":1183.09,"endTime":1187.52,"body":"developers, We could really punch ahead"},{"startTime":1183.09,"endTime":1187.52,"body":"for these customers or we could really"},{"startTime":1187.56,"endTime":1191.63,"body":"capture these new deals Like there's a lot"},{"startTime":1187.56,"endTime":1191.63,"body":"of things that we might be able to do in"},{"startTime":1191.64,"endTime":1196.35,"body":"the past the nice thing in my career is"},{"startTime":1191.64,"endTime":1196.35,"body":"I've been super, super successful about"},{"startTime":1196.36,"endTime":1200.34,"body":"lobbying the C suite for more money."},{"startTime":1200.49,"endTime":1203.23,"body":"What I really mean is"},{"startTime":1200.49,"endTime":1203.23,"body":"I've been a huge pain."},{"startTime":1203.38,"endTime":1204.14,"body":"That's what it takes."},{"startTime":1204.19,"endTime":1208.19,"body":"to constantly drive to say, listen,"},{"startTime":1204.19,"endTime":1208.19,"body":"these are the things we want to do."},{"startTime":1208.41,"endTime":1208.86,"body":"I make."},{"startTime":1209.01,"endTime":1212.58,"body":"Transparent these are the places that"},{"startTime":1209.01,"endTime":1212.58,"body":"we want to go with the business in the"},{"startTime":1212.58,"endTime":1216.74,"body":"future And here's a signal that those"},{"startTime":1212.58,"endTime":1216.74,"body":"places could be profitable for us."},{"startTime":1216.77,"endTime":1220.43,"body":"That's part of product management, and"},{"startTime":1216.77,"endTime":1220.43,"body":"then I put it to the business say hey like"},{"startTime":1220.43,"endTime":1225.53,"body":"do you want to make a bet on moving us"},{"startTime":1220.43,"endTime":1225.53,"body":"into these places because the bet is gonna"},{"startTime":1225.53,"endTime":1231.36,"body":"cost this much money and Then usually what"},{"startTime":1225.53,"endTime":1231.36,"body":"I will get  is what is the ROI on giving"},{"startTime":1231.36,"endTime":1233.45,"body":"you two more developers in your team?"},{"startTime":1233.45,"endTime":1235.39,"body":"So you can make these new bets."},{"startTime":1235.39,"endTime":1239.47,"body":"Like how can you prove that there"},{"startTime":1235.39,"endTime":1239.47,"body":"is ROI on the other side of it?"},{"startTime":1239.62,"endTime":1243.87,"body":"Which is a very complicated"},{"startTime":1239.62,"endTime":1243.87,"body":"question to answer for a product"},{"startTime":1243.87,"endTime":1245.8,"body":"manager on a traditional."},{"startTime":1246.15,"endTime":1251.1,"body":"Marty Cagan style durable product"},{"startTime":1246.15,"endTime":1251.1,"body":"team that has revenue tied to the"},{"startTime":1251.1,"endTime":1253.68,"body":"product and that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1253.97,"endTime":1257.34,"body":"It's a fairly complicated answer"},{"startTime":1253.97,"endTime":1257.34,"body":"because you're betting on revenue."},{"startTime":1257.49,"endTime":1258.86,"body":"On the other side of your bets."},{"startTime":1259.01,"endTime":1263.2,"body":"So, your feature bets and if you're"},{"startTime":1259.01,"endTime":1263.2,"body":"doing outcome style bets, they"},{"startTime":1263.2,"endTime":1265.09,"body":"have to have money tied to them."},{"startTime":1265.27,"endTime":1266.79,"body":"I feel a lot of product management books."},{"startTime":1266.79,"endTime":1267.55,"body":"don't go into that."},{"startTime":1267.55,"endTime":1269.86,"body":"It's like, Oh, we want to reduce churn."},{"startTime":1270.01,"endTime":1273.88,"body":"Well part of reducing churn of your"},{"startTime":1270.01,"endTime":1273.88,"body":"application is you're now going to"},{"startTime":1273.89,"endTime":1278.82,"body":"recapture 20 percent more value that"},{"startTime":1273.89,"endTime":1278.82,"body":"would have otherwise churned out in"},{"startTime":1278.82,"endTime":1282.11,"body":"the form of customers just dropping off"},{"startTime":1278.82,"endTime":1282.11,"body":"because they don't value your solution."},{"startTime":1282.31,"endTime":1285.72,"body":"Traditional thinking doesn't"},{"startTime":1282.31,"endTime":1285.72,"body":"really go that far, right?"},{"startTime":1285.87,"endTime":1290.24,"body":"So if you're a product person, really"},{"startTime":1285.87,"endTime":1290.24,"body":"anybody who's thinking about this"},{"startTime":1290.51,"endTime":1294.38,"body":"from the perspective of the business"},{"startTime":1290.51,"endTime":1294.38,"body":"value side of it, , you really need"},{"startTime":1294.38,"endTime":1298.625,"body":"to differently you're not necessarily"},{"startTime":1294.38,"endTime":1298.625,"body":"saying adding two developers will"},{"startTime":1298.635,"endTime":1301.405,"body":"mean an ROI of X percent, right?"},{"startTime":1301.735,"endTime":1305.125,"body":"Which is typically how ROI is"},{"startTime":1301.735,"endTime":1305.125,"body":"calculated, a percentage basis, right?"},{"startTime":1305.155,"endTime":1309.095,"body":"Over a time period, two months, two"},{"startTime":1305.155,"endTime":1309.095,"body":"years, three years, whatever it might"},{"startTime":1309.095,"endTime":1310.495,"body":"be, whatever the time period is."},{"startTime":1310.645,"endTime":1314.665,"body":"It's hard to kind of come up with a number"},{"startTime":1310.645,"endTime":1314.665,"body":"like that in these kinds of situations."},{"startTime":1314.675,"endTime":1316.455,"body":"So what do you do instead, right?"},{"startTime":1316.715,"endTime":1318.875,"body":"Forget about all the story"},{"startTime":1316.715,"endTime":1318.875,"body":"point nonsense, right?"},{"startTime":1318.985,"endTime":1325.005,"body":"Look at what difference has it made to"},{"startTime":1318.985,"endTime":1325.005,"body":"the team and the outcomes of that team."},{"startTime":1325.155,"endTime":1328.935,"body":"After a certain period of time,"},{"startTime":1325.155,"endTime":1328.935,"body":"let's allow for all of the nuances"},{"startTime":1328.935,"endTime":1329.935,"body":"of getting new people at it."},{"startTime":1330.165,"endTime":1333.765,"body":"So let's say three months out,"},{"startTime":1330.165,"endTime":1333.765,"body":"you look at that again and say,"},{"startTime":1333.795,"endTime":1335.735,"body":", here's what it's done for us."},{"startTime":1335.885,"endTime":1339.025,"body":"Reduce defects because we're pair"},{"startTime":1335.885,"endTime":1339.025,"body":"programming now with the two extra"},{"startTime":1339.025,"endTime":1343.085,"body":"people that we added, or we're"},{"startTime":1339.025,"endTime":1343.085,"body":"delivering these features faster"},{"startTime":1343.085,"endTime":1347.265,"body":"than we anticipated, measure that"},{"startTime":1343.085,"endTime":1347.265,"body":"before making a change like that."},{"startTime":1347.275,"endTime":1348.715,"body":"So you have a reference point."},{"startTime":1348.735,"endTime":1353.285,"body":"I wrote down three things that were"},{"startTime":1348.735,"endTime":1353.285,"body":"difficult to measure in terms of ROI."},{"startTime":1353.295,"endTime":1357.775,"body":"When people ask you for ROI, I wrote down"},{"startTime":1353.295,"endTime":1357.775,"body":"three things that they should be asking"},{"startTime":1357.775,"endTime":1361.035,"body":"for, but the simplistic view is ROI."},{"startTime":1361.235,"endTime":1364.515,"body":"I wrote down the time"},{"startTime":1361.235,"endTime":1364.515,"body":"for a change to be made."},{"startTime":1364.665,"endTime":1369.545,"body":"So basically the lead time, the time"},{"startTime":1364.665,"endTime":1369.545,"body":"to iterate, the time to put something"},{"startTime":1369.545,"endTime":1371.075,"body":"out on the market learn from it."},{"startTime":1371.225,"endTime":1374.045,"body":"Then take it back in and"},{"startTime":1371.225,"endTime":1374.045,"body":"change it and put it back out."},{"startTime":1374.045,"endTime":1374.855,"body":"That's iterate."},{"startTime":1374.915,"endTime":1376.295,"body":"That's the way I think of iterate."},{"startTime":1376.395,"endTime":1377.205,"body":"iteration time."},{"startTime":1377.355,"endTime":1379.215,"body":"And then the time to learn."},{"startTime":1379.365,"endTime":1381.975,"body":"time to learn might be completely"},{"startTime":1379.365,"endTime":1381.975,"body":"separate from that because the"},{"startTime":1381.975,"endTime":1385.665,"body":"time to learn is I'm spending my"},{"startTime":1381.975,"endTime":1385.665,"body":"team up to learn something new."},{"startTime":1385.815,"endTime":1386.055,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1386.175,"endTime":1389.385,"body":"So those three things, which"},{"startTime":1386.175,"endTime":1389.385,"body":"potentially could be completely"},{"startTime":1389.385,"endTime":1391.005,"body":"disconnected from each other."},{"startTime":1391.125,"endTime":1393.39,"body":"So they might be related"},{"startTime":1391.125,"endTime":1393.39,"body":"like time to iterate."},{"startTime":1393.54,"endTime":1397.88,"body":"Time to learn and time to change might"},{"startTime":1393.54,"endTime":1397.88,"body":"all be the same related, but they might be"},{"startTime":1397.97,"endTime":1402.2,"body":"related, but, if I'm entering a different"},{"startTime":1397.97,"endTime":1402.2,"body":"market or a different target audience"},{"startTime":1402.46,"endTime":1406.93,"body":"or introducing some kind of new feature,"},{"startTime":1402.46,"endTime":1406.93,"body":"they might be completely unrelated."},{"startTime":1407.08,"endTime":1412.15,"body":"And all of those are rolled under ROI"},{"startTime":1407.08,"endTime":1412.15,"body":"from the perspective of, I'm going to"},{"startTime":1412.16,"endTime":1416.45,"body":"give you two new developers because"},{"startTime":1412.16,"endTime":1416.45,"body":"I'm also going to give you three new."},{"startTime":1416.6,"endTime":1420.53,"body":"Ideal customer profiles that I want"},{"startTime":1416.6,"endTime":1420.53,"body":"you to target for our software So"},{"startTime":1420.53,"endTime":1423.53,"body":"let's say for example when"},{"startTime":1420.53,"endTime":1423.53,"body":"the insurance business, right?"},{"startTime":1423.68,"endTime":1426.29,"body":"And we're shucking car insurance."},{"startTime":1426.29,"endTime":1429.5,"body":"Oh, that's a little car insurance I"},{"startTime":1426.29,"endTime":1429.5,"body":"know I'm scarred and show Brian and"},{"startTime":1429.5,"endTime":1432.98,"body":"Om's car insurance And then we're gonna"},{"startTime":1429.5,"endTime":1432.98,"body":"say okay,  but now we also want to"},{"startTime":1432.98,"endTime":1436.84,"body":"sell like a CDL commercial insurance."},{"startTime":1437.0,"endTime":1440.79,"body":"And also maybe we want to bring"},{"startTime":1437.0,"endTime":1440.79,"body":"in a home insurance as well."},{"startTime":1440.91,"endTime":1442.91,"body":"Like you just described"},{"startTime":1440.91,"endTime":1442.91,"body":"three different markets."},{"startTime":1442.92,"endTime":1447.03,"body":"You described commercial drivers, like"},{"startTime":1442.92,"endTime":1447.03,"body":"professional drivers, like individual"},{"startTime":1447.04,"endTime":1451.4,"body":"personal vehicle drivers, and then that's"},{"startTime":1447.04,"endTime":1451.4,"body":"the German three for home insurance."},{"startTime":1451.4,"endTime":1453.82,"body":"Like those are complete,"},{"startTime":1451.4,"endTime":1453.82,"body":"those are unrelated markets."},{"startTime":1454.1,"endTime":1457.92,"body":"Totally totally unrelated markets,"},{"startTime":1454.1,"endTime":1457.92,"body":"but you say well, I mean our software"},{"startTime":1458.05,"endTime":1461.08,"body":"can handle all three of those markets"},{"startTime":1458.05,"endTime":1461.08,"body":"let's just roll into each one of them."},{"startTime":1461.28,"endTime":1462.83,"body":"Well, we can do that."},{"startTime":1462.94,"endTime":1467.25,"body":"Certainly We're all smart people here"},{"startTime":1462.94,"endTime":1467.25,"body":"at Brian and Om insurance company"},{"startTime":1467.4,"endTime":1471.56,"body":"but our development team doesn't know"},{"startTime":1467.4,"endTime":1471.56,"body":"anything about home insurance, so"},{"startTime":1471.56,"endTime":1475.04,"body":"We want to expand into that market"},{"startTime":1471.56,"endTime":1475.04,"body":"maybe we have to spend some time"},{"startTime":1475.04,"endTime":1478.07,"body":"understanding that market For sure"},{"startTime":1475.04,"endTime":1478.07,"body":"maybe we partner with somebody."},{"startTime":1478.07,"endTime":1479.63,"body":"Maybe that's an easier way to do it."},{"startTime":1479.66,"endTime":1479.96,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1479.96,"endTime":1485.0,"body":"I wanna hear like, well, what's the ROII"},{"startTime":1479.96,"endTime":1485.0,"body":"the ROI is like the, the freshly made nice"},{"startTime":1485.0,"endTime":1487.43,"body":"bed with like the nice hospital corners."},{"startTime":1487.58,"endTime":1490.55,"body":"And then when I pull the sheet back"},{"startTime":1487.58,"endTime":1490.55,"body":"a little bit, there's underneath,"},{"startTime":1490.82,"endTime":1493.73,"body":"there's a whole different world"},{"startTime":1490.82,"endTime":1493.73,"body":"that I've never seen before."},{"startTime":1493.97,"endTime":1494.18,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1494.18,"endTime":1495.41,"body":"Of like, what is all this?"},{"startTime":1495.41,"endTime":1495.68,"body":"I don't."},{"startTime":1495.83,"endTime":1497.76,"body":"This is not anything that we know about."},{"startTime":1497.91,"endTime":1498.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1498.13,"endTime":1501.48,"body":"But you know, we're understood"},{"startTime":1498.13,"endTime":1501.48,"body":"by people that are making"},{"startTime":1501.48,"endTime":1503.24,"body":"these demands of ROI, right?"},{"startTime":1503.39,"endTime":1506.7,"body":"The finance folks, they don't"},{"startTime":1503.39,"endTime":1506.7,"body":"necessarily know about these things."},{"startTime":1506.72,"endTime":1508.58,"body":"They don't necessarily"},{"startTime":1506.72,"endTime":1508.58,"body":"care about these things."},{"startTime":1508.73,"endTime":1511.59,"body":"So I think it behooves us"},{"startTime":1508.73,"endTime":1511.59,"body":"to be the conduit, right?"},{"startTime":1511.6,"endTime":1514.87,"body":"To translate that in terms that"},{"startTime":1511.6,"endTime":1514.87,"body":"they can actually understand."},{"startTime":1515.07,"endTime":1519.37,"body":"So let's spend a second and talk about"},{"startTime":1515.07,"endTime":1519.37,"body":"improved ROI from the perspective of"},{"startTime":1519.53,"endTime":1524.5,"body":"coming up on line with a small business"},{"startTime":1519.53,"endTime":1524.5,"body":"that has started with a couple founders"},{"startTime":1524.54,"endTime":1530.13,"body":"and an initial starting crew in a small"},{"startTime":1524.54,"endTime":1530.13,"body":"business maybe 15, 20 employees, maybe."},{"startTime":1530.28,"endTime":1533.29,"body":"And I have to attack the"},{"startTime":1530.28,"endTime":1533.29,"body":"problem of technical debt"},{"startTime":1533.29,"endTime":1534.71,"body":"before it buries the company."},{"startTime":1534.86,"endTime":1539.96,"body":"Because the revenue coming in there's"},{"startTime":1534.86,"endTime":1539.96,"body":"some manual processes and usually"},{"startTime":1539.96,"endTime":1543.1,"body":"the developers are doing some things"},{"startTime":1539.96,"endTime":1543.1,"body":"on nights and weekends to keep the"},{"startTime":1543.1,"endTime":1544.19,"body":"system running and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1544.34,"endTime":1547.87,"body":"I have to knock that stuff out"},{"startTime":1544.34,"endTime":1547.87,"body":"before we can scale the company."},{"startTime":1547.89,"endTime":1551.08,"body":"You want to take a company from"},{"startTime":1547.89,"endTime":1551.08,"body":"5 million to 25 million to 50"},{"startTime":1551.08,"endTime":1554.35,"body":"million, some of this stuff's got"},{"startTime":1551.08,"endTime":1554.35,"body":"to get automated and simplified."},{"startTime":1554.6,"endTime":1555.24,"body":"Simplified."},{"startTime":1555.25,"endTime":1557.45,"body":"That's the thing we don't talk"},{"startTime":1555.25,"endTime":1557.45,"body":"about in software development."},{"startTime":1557.45,"endTime":1561.57,"body":"That's a four letter word right there, We"},{"startTime":1557.45,"endTime":1561.57,"body":"have to simplify some of this architecture"},{"startTime":1561.72,"endTime":1567.05,"body":"to make it easier for a smaller team to"},{"startTime":1561.72,"endTime":1567.05,"body":"maintain this larger solution over time."},{"startTime":1567.2,"endTime":1569.985,"body":"And that's one of the things that"},{"startTime":1567.2,"endTime":1569.985,"body":"I've made a lot of money in my career."},{"startTime":1569.985,"endTime":1571.905,"body":"Not actual money because"},{"startTime":1569.985,"endTime":1571.905,"body":"I ain't got no yachts."},{"startTime":1572.055,"endTime":1576.295,"body":"Off of understanding, Hey, we"},{"startTime":1572.055,"endTime":1576.295,"body":"can like a percentage of our"},{"startTime":1576.445,"endTime":1577.795,"body":"time on the development team."},{"startTime":1578.065,"endTime":1580.545,"body":"needs to be spent paying"},{"startTime":1578.065,"endTime":1580.545,"body":"down that interest."},{"startTime":1580.545,"endTime":1582.895,"body":"If you go back to our podcast"},{"startTime":1580.545,"endTime":1582.895,"body":"with Alex about technical debt,"},{"startTime":1583.205,"endTime":1584.755,"body":"we need to pay down that interest."},{"startTime":1584.775,"endTime":1588.525,"body":"And also the principle against"},{"startTime":1584.775,"endTime":1588.525,"body":"the interest very quickly."},{"startTime":1588.805,"endTime":1591.865,"body":"While also keeping the lights"},{"startTime":1588.805,"endTime":1591.865,"body":"on and developing new features"},{"startTime":1591.865,"endTime":1593.035,"body":"and bringing new customers in."},{"startTime":1593.035,"endTime":1593.605,"body":"But we need to."},{"startTime":1593.755,"endTime":1597.345,"body":"Carve off as much of that cash as"},{"startTime":1593.755,"endTime":1597.345,"body":"possible to pay that principal down so"},{"startTime":1597.345,"endTime":1601.905,"body":"that when we are ready We don't have all"},{"startTime":1597.345,"endTime":1601.905,"body":"this stuff that was incurred To build"},{"startTime":1601.905,"endTime":1606.465,"body":"the initial system and get the initial"},{"startTime":1601.905,"endTime":1606.465,"body":"customers and get our initial profit base"},{"startTime":1606.605,"endTime":1610.945,"body":"You know our initial profitability as a"},{"startTime":1606.605,"endTime":1610.945,"body":"as a company To launch us to the moon,"},{"startTime":1611.095,"endTime":1613.605,"body":"A lot of the founders"},{"startTime":1611.095,"endTime":1613.605,"body":"don't think this way."},{"startTime":1613.645,"endTime":1617.685,"body":"Although now what I'm finding"},{"startTime":1613.645,"endTime":1617.685,"body":"is for all of that work that"},{"startTime":1617.685,"endTime":1621.615,"body":"required manual drudgery, there's"},{"startTime":1617.685,"endTime":1621.615,"body":"opportunities to outsource that the"},{"startTime":1621.615,"endTime":1623.275,"body":"companies that can do a lot for you."},{"startTime":1623.485,"endTime":1624.955,"body":"So you need to think about that."},{"startTime":1625.005,"endTime":1627.71,"body":"But the thing that people"},{"startTime":1625.005,"endTime":1627.71,"body":"should understand is."},{"startTime":1627.93,"endTime":1631.02,"body":"Yes, we're saying wind"},{"startTime":1627.93,"endTime":1631.02,"body":"down as much as possible."},{"startTime":1631.03,"endTime":1635.41,"body":"All of that technical debt you possibly"},{"startTime":1631.03,"endTime":1635.41,"body":"in real life never get to zero because"},{"startTime":1635.41,"endTime":1637.67,"body":"of the pressure to deliver constantly."},{"startTime":1637.67,"endTime":1638.78,"body":"So you're going to maintain it."},{"startTime":1638.79,"endTime":1642.61,"body":"The trick is to carry as little"},{"startTime":1638.79,"endTime":1642.61,"body":"as you can and on an ongoing"},{"startTime":1642.61,"endTime":1644.2,"body":"basis, keep paying that down."},{"startTime":1644.35,"endTime":1647.54,"body":"So what you do carry, you want to"},{"startTime":1644.35,"endTime":1647.54,"body":"make sure that's the good fat, right?"},{"startTime":1647.59,"endTime":1649.63,"body":"You want to make sure that"},{"startTime":1647.59,"endTime":1649.63,"body":"that's the stuff that's not"},{"startTime":1649.63,"endTime":1651.03,"body":"going to hinder you as much."},{"startTime":1651.365,"endTime":1655.425,"body":"And some of the other stuff, which"},{"startTime":1651.365,"endTime":1655.425,"body":"potentially is like basically a bale of"},{"startTime":1655.465,"endTime":1659.595,"body":"cotton or whatever, hay that just keeps"},{"startTime":1655.465,"endTime":1659.595,"body":"growing bigger and bigger  over time."},{"startTime":1659.745,"endTime":1664.005,"body":"That's the ticket right there and savvy"},{"startTime":1659.745,"endTime":1664.005,"body":"development managers know this, right?"},{"startTime":1664.005,"endTime":1669.045,"body":"And they can translate that up"},{"startTime":1664.005,"endTime":1669.045,"body":"to finance folks and say, this"},{"startTime":1669.045,"endTime":1670.345,"body":"is what's going on here, right?"},{"startTime":1670.365,"endTime":1671.515,"body":"We have to pay this down."},{"startTime":1671.525,"endTime":1674.415,"body":"That's why our throughput"},{"startTime":1671.525,"endTime":1674.415,"body":"isn't as big as it can be."},{"startTime":1674.565,"endTime":1675.345,"body":"Theoretically."},{"startTime":1675.495,"endTime":1679.625,"body":"It's a little less because we're also"},{"startTime":1675.495,"endTime":1679.625,"body":"paying this down on an ongoing basis."},{"startTime":1679.955,"endTime":1680.235,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1680.235,"endTime":1683.695,"body":"this was not the original"},{"startTime":1680.235,"endTime":1683.695,"body":"intention of this podcast to"},{"startTime":1683.695,"endTime":1684.885,"body":"be where we're at right now."},{"startTime":1685.235,"endTime":1690.165,"body":"I'm very happy that we're here because"},{"startTime":1685.235,"endTime":1690.165,"body":"there are some world class CTOs out"},{"startTime":1690.165,"endTime":1694.225,"body":"there can explain and bring it to the"},{"startTime":1690.165,"endTime":1694.225,"body":"sea, the bubble, what we're talking"},{"startTime":1694.225,"endTime":1699.195,"body":"about up to the C level to say, if we"},{"startTime":1694.225,"endTime":1699.195,"body":"don't invest in this, if we're going to"},{"startTime":1699.245,"endTime":1703.855,"body":"constantly be held back by the interests"},{"startTime":1699.245,"endTime":1703.855,"body":"on the loan that we took out we can't"},{"startTime":1703.865,"endTime":1707.955,"body":"take advantage of all of what the"},{"startTime":1703.865,"endTime":1707.955,"body":"technology could provide in the future."},{"startTime":1708.155,"endTime":1711.895,"body":"So basically they're laying out a"},{"startTime":1708.155,"endTime":1711.895,"body":"technological road map to the future."},{"startTime":1712.045,"endTime":1714.825,"body":"It's somehow woven into"},{"startTime":1712.045,"endTime":1714.825,"body":"the product roadmap."},{"startTime":1714.825,"endTime":1717.745,"body":"So they've already worked with"},{"startTime":1714.825,"endTime":1717.745,"body":"product to say, listen, we need some"},{"startTime":1717.745,"endTime":1722.625,"body":"kind of minimal amount of dollars"},{"startTime":1717.745,"endTime":1722.625,"body":"time translated to dollars, right?"},{"startTime":1722.775,"endTime":1726.655,"body":"To say, we need to pay down this"},{"startTime":1722.775,"endTime":1726.655,"body":"debt because we need to get to"},{"startTime":1726.655,"endTime":1729.695,"body":"a future of this technological."},{"startTime":1729.845,"endTime":1731.615,"body":"Our safe causes architectural runway."},{"startTime":1731.615,"endTime":1734.415,"body":"Like I think that that's a great"},{"startTime":1731.615,"endTime":1734.415,"body":"term for it, architectural runway."},{"startTime":1734.615,"endTime":1736.825,"body":"I really think that's, that's one"},{"startTime":1734.615,"endTime":1736.825,"body":"of the things that safe got, right."},{"startTime":1736.825,"endTime":1741.945,"body":"If I'm going to praise safe for once in a"},{"startTime":1736.825,"endTime":1741.945,"body":"lifetime like you need to be showing the"},{"startTime":1741.945,"endTime":1745.865,"body":"future of the organization, Hey, these are"},{"startTime":1741.945,"endTime":1745.865,"body":"the emerging tech trends in the future."},{"startTime":1746.035,"endTime":1748.345,"body":"And going with these things can bring our."},{"startTime":1748.495,"endTime":1752.725,"body":"Cost of ownership down and can"},{"startTime":1748.495,"endTime":1752.725,"body":"increase the profit margin, basically"},{"startTime":1752.725,"endTime":1755.155,"body":"of the cost to run the business"},{"startTime":1752.725,"endTime":1755.155,"body":"versus what you're bringing in."},{"startTime":1755.365,"endTime":1756.995,"body":"So we want to constantly be."},{"startTime":1757.185,"endTime":1761.305,"body":"Expanding that margin between what"},{"startTime":1757.185,"endTime":1761.305,"body":"it costs to run the business and what"},{"startTime":1761.305,"endTime":1764.165,"body":"the technology costs I want to at"},{"startTime":1761.305,"endTime":1764.165,"body":"least show that we're keeping them"},{"startTime":1764.165,"endTime":1768.495,"body":"equal because we're broadening what"},{"startTime":1764.165,"endTime":1768.495,"body":"we can do with the technology out"},{"startTime":1768.495,"endTime":1770.435,"body":"of the box constantly and forever."},{"startTime":1770.445,"endTime":1773.735,"body":"And like that, that's a great"},{"startTime":1770.445,"endTime":1773.735,"body":"thing to present to your C"},{"startTime":1773.735,"endTime":1777.855,"body":"level , I say that because I have"},{"startTime":1773.735,"endTime":1777.855,"body":"a technology background, right?"},{"startTime":1778.155,"endTime":1781.865,"body":"But again, I firmly"},{"startTime":1778.155,"endTime":1781.865,"body":"believe that's a CTO's job."},{"startTime":1782.015,"endTime":1783.295,"body":"It is a CTO's job."},{"startTime":1783.315,"endTime":1787.595,"body":"I do think that you know, development"},{"startTime":1783.315,"endTime":1787.595,"body":"side of  the organization, they need"},{"startTime":1787.625,"endTime":1792.735,"body":"to partner with product and, and"},{"startTime":1787.625,"endTime":1792.735,"body":"putting in on the backlog, certain tech"},{"startTime":1792.735,"endTime":1796.771,"body":"net reduction, refactoring, whatever"},{"startTime":1792.735,"endTime":1796.771,"body":"you want to call it items, right?"},{"startTime":1796.771,"endTime":1799.921,"body":"And those items need not"},{"startTime":1796.771,"endTime":1799.921,"body":"be buried in the backlog."},{"startTime":1799.971,"endTime":1804.281,"body":"They should actually be made visible"},{"startTime":1799.971,"endTime":1804.281,"body":"on a chart when that's presented to"},{"startTime":1804.281,"endTime":1808.331,"body":"leadership to say, this is the net new"},{"startTime":1804.281,"endTime":1808.331,"body":"stuff that we're doing and here is all"},{"startTime":1808.331,"endTime":1809.861,"body":"the tech net reduction that we're doing."},{"startTime":1810.061,"endTime":1812.081,"body":"So the messaging is clear, right?"},{"startTime":1812.281,"endTime":1815.571,"body":"To the C level folks, here's where"},{"startTime":1812.281,"endTime":1815.571,"body":"we're spending our money, right?"},{"startTime":1815.611,"endTime":1816.921,"body":"And here's why we're doing this."},{"startTime":1817.131,"endTime":1821.101,"body":"that's really the key to explain it in"},{"startTime":1817.131,"endTime":1821.101,"body":"those terms to say we're spending this"},{"startTime":1821.101,"endTime":1825.331,"body":"amount of our bandwidth, on cleaning"},{"startTime":1821.101,"endTime":1825.331,"body":"the house, And then this other stuff"},{"startTime":1825.331,"endTime":1829.161,"body":"we're doing for Investing in the future,"},{"startTime":1825.331,"endTime":1829.161,"body":"doing new functionality, etcetera."},{"startTime":1829.311,"endTime":1833.161,"body":"if you can do that successfully,"},{"startTime":1829.311,"endTime":1833.161,"body":"you'll have no friction from them."},{"startTime":1833.191,"endTime":1836.481,"body":"Because  what you're trying to"},{"startTime":1833.191,"endTime":1836.481,"body":"really get is to the point where"},{"startTime":1836.481,"endTime":1839.911,"body":"you say, if we don't do this,"},{"startTime":1836.481,"endTime":1839.911,"body":"here's the opportunity cost, right?"},{"startTime":1840.141,"endTime":1843.781,"body":"Where that top band of new"},{"startTime":1840.141,"endTime":1843.781,"body":"features that we're Delivering."},{"startTime":1843.781,"endTime":1844.881,"body":"It's not about the features."},{"startTime":1844.881,"endTime":1848.561,"body":"It's the revenue you're going to garner"},{"startTime":1844.881,"endTime":1848.561,"body":"from those that's going to shrink over"},{"startTime":1848.561,"endTime":1851.101,"body":"time because your tech net grows, right?"},{"startTime":1851.101,"endTime":1854.661,"body":"So that output entropy is"},{"startTime":1851.101,"endTime":1854.661,"body":"going to be constant, right?"},{"startTime":1854.691,"endTime":1859.071,"body":"And so as your tech debt grows, your"},{"startTime":1854.691,"endTime":1859.071,"body":"profit margin is going to shrink."},{"startTime":1859.221,"endTime":1862.431,"body":"And if you can relay that"},{"startTime":1859.221,"endTime":1862.431,"body":"message clearly to sea level,"},{"startTime":1862.581,"endTime":1863.511,"body":"I think you're onto something."},{"startTime":1863.661,"endTime":1866.286,"body":"What do you say to the people that,"},{"startTime":1863.661,"endTime":1866.286,"body":"will say, we're not going to give you."},{"startTime":1866.516,"endTime":1869.826,"body":"Two more developers, because the way"},{"startTime":1866.516,"endTime":1869.826,"body":"you're doing product management, I have"},{"startTime":1869.826,"endTime":1873.036,"body":"to wait till 12 months or six months"},{"startTime":1869.826,"endTime":1873.036,"body":"or whatever, to the end of the year"},{"startTime":1873.036,"endTime":1874.696,"body":"to show impact on the product line."},{"startTime":1874.696,"endTime":1876.366,"body":"And I'm going to add them to your team."},{"startTime":1876.366,"endTime":1879.176,"body":"And you're telling me it's going to be"},{"startTime":1876.366,"endTime":1879.176,"body":"three months because your velocity is"},{"startTime":1879.176,"endTime":1882.856,"body":"going to be all out of whack because"},{"startTime":1879.176,"endTime":1882.856,"body":"you've got to go to this forming, storming"},{"startTime":1882.866,"endTime":1884.606,"body":"nonsense that you're telling me about."},{"startTime":1884.706,"endTime":1887.416,"body":"And then you'll get your working"},{"startTime":1884.706,"endTime":1887.416,"body":"agreement together and it's going to"},{"startTime":1887.416,"endTime":1889.556,"body":"be X number of months until I see any."},{"startTime":1889.891,"endTime":1891.191,"body":"Impact to my bottom line."},{"startTime":1891.191,"endTime":1894.671,"body":"So I'm not even going to bother"},{"startTime":1891.191,"endTime":1894.671,"body":"giving you any developers it's"},{"startTime":1894.671,"endTime":1896.481,"body":"not an uncommon argument to hear."},{"startTime":1896.811,"endTime":1897.821,"body":"It's a very elegant, right?"},{"startTime":1897.871,"endTime":1900.991,"body":"I will, I freely admit I am not"},{"startTime":1897.871,"endTime":1900.991,"body":"representing the argument very"},{"startTime":1900.991,"endTime":1903.371,"body":"well, but it is a real argument"},{"startTime":1900.991,"endTime":1903.371,"body":"that I've experienced and I, and I."},{"startTime":1903.681,"endTime":1905.491,"body":"I haven't taken very"},{"startTime":1903.681,"endTime":1905.491,"body":"well is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1905.671,"endTime":1905.931,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1905.931,"endTime":1909.671,"body":"So one of the ways you can kind"},{"startTime":1905.931,"endTime":1909.671,"body":"of start to tackle that is to say"},{"startTime":1909.701,"endTime":1911.421,"body":"what's the alternative, right?"},{"startTime":1911.631,"endTime":1915.761,"body":"The alternative is you don't add"},{"startTime":1911.631,"endTime":1915.761,"body":"this investment to developers or"},{"startTime":1915.761,"endTime":1919.571,"body":"whatever the investment is, and you"},{"startTime":1915.761,"endTime":1919.571,"body":"can now look at what you've done."},{"startTime":1919.721,"endTime":1924.131,"body":"From a point in time to today and"},{"startTime":1919.721,"endTime":1924.131,"body":"say, if everything stays constant,"},{"startTime":1924.141,"endTime":1925.791,"body":"we're going to go down this path."},{"startTime":1925.941,"endTime":1927.851,"body":"And is that acceptable, right?"},{"startTime":1927.891,"endTime":1928.791,"body":"You're an SMB."},{"startTime":1928.821,"endTime":1929.731,"body":"Is that acceptable?"},{"startTime":1929.811,"endTime":1932.031,"body":"If it is, We don't need"},{"startTime":1929.811,"endTime":1932.031,"body":"to add more people."},{"startTime":1932.101,"endTime":1933.721,"body":"We don't need to add any more investment."},{"startTime":1933.921,"endTime":1937.211,"body":"Inevitably though, in the"},{"startTime":1933.921,"endTime":1937.211,"body":"situation that SMBs typically"},{"startTime":1937.211,"endTime":1939.141,"body":"are, you have competition, right?"},{"startTime":1939.291,"endTime":1942.481,"body":"And you're always fighting for"},{"startTime":1939.291,"endTime":1942.481,"body":"every inch of your market share or"},{"startTime":1942.481,"endTime":1943.891,"body":"every, how would you measure it?"},{"startTime":1944.021,"endTime":1944.551,"body":"Percentage."},{"startTime":1944.801,"endTime":1946.731,"body":"But anyway, you're always"},{"startTime":1944.801,"endTime":1946.731,"body":"fighting for market share."},{"startTime":1946.881,"endTime":1950.451,"body":"So in order to do better, you"},{"startTime":1946.881,"endTime":1950.451,"body":"have to spend a little, it's"},{"startTime":1950.451,"endTime":1953.951,"body":"like, you can't go faster unless"},{"startTime":1950.451,"endTime":1953.951,"body":"you're willing to pedal faster."},{"startTime":1954.251,"endTime":1955.631,"body":"So let's do this."},{"startTime":1955.916,"endTime":1959.806,"body":"If there's pushback, give me one"},{"startTime":1955.916,"endTime":1959.806,"body":"developer and we'll see how it goes."},{"startTime":1960.036,"endTime":1963.796,"body":"You're going to wait still, but"},{"startTime":1960.036,"endTime":1963.796,"body":"hopefully within a short period of"},{"startTime":1963.796,"endTime":1967.946,"body":"time, after they've become settled,"},{"startTime":1963.796,"endTime":1967.946,"body":"I can show you a tangible benefit."},{"startTime":1968.106,"endTime":1972.106,"body":"And at that point, I'm going to come back"},{"startTime":1968.106,"endTime":1972.106,"body":"to you and say, let's add the other one."},{"startTime":1972.206,"endTime":1974.376,"body":"Or I might need two back"},{"startTime":1972.206,"endTime":1974.376,"body":"at that point in time."},{"startTime":1974.526,"endTime":1976.626,"body":"That's typically how I would frame that."},{"startTime":1976.626,"endTime":1977.006,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1977.156,"endTime":1979.446,"body":"You got to think about it"},{"startTime":1977.156,"endTime":1979.446,"body":"from their perspective too."},{"startTime":1979.596,"endTime":1980.396,"body":"You're an SMB."},{"startTime":1980.436,"endTime":1984.186,"body":"You really cannot wait 12 months"},{"startTime":1980.436,"endTime":1984.186,"body":"to see a return on that investment."},{"startTime":1984.196,"endTime":1987.476,"body":"That money you could put somewhere"},{"startTime":1984.196,"endTime":1987.476,"body":"else, at least in your mind, that can"},{"startTime":1987.486,"endTime":1990.306,"body":"give you quicker or better return."},{"startTime":1990.406,"endTime":1993.946,"body":"So you have to fight that in a way"},{"startTime":1990.406,"endTime":1993.946,"body":"that makes sense to the people."},{"startTime":1994.096,"endTime":1994.516,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1994.616,"endTime":1999.786,"body":"Like I, I completely with you I guess"},{"startTime":1994.616,"endTime":1999.786,"body":"they, in reality that like a lot of"},{"startTime":1999.836,"endTime":2002.496,"body":"the stuff that we're talking about"},{"startTime":1999.836,"endTime":2002.496,"body":"Oh, well, how do I know when to hire"},{"startTime":2002.496,"endTime":2007.346,"body":"a permanent scoremaster or when to"},{"startTime":2002.496,"endTime":2007.346,"body":"bring in a contract, agile coach, for"},{"startTime":2007.346,"endTime":2009.756,"body":"example, to kind of help my teams evolve."},{"startTime":2009.936,"endTime":2013.886,"body":", some of that stuff hopefully is leading"},{"startTime":2009.936,"endTime":2013.886,"body":"edge, meaning you've booked some business."},{"startTime":2014.036,"endTime":2016.896,"body":"In order to fulfill that, you"},{"startTime":2014.036,"endTime":2016.896,"body":"haven't got enough capacity."},{"startTime":2017.046,"endTime":2020.896,"body":"That's the good way to do it because"},{"startTime":2017.046,"endTime":2020.896,"body":"now you know, you've already got some"},{"startTime":2020.896,"endTime":2023.986,"body":"deposits down, you're going to try"},{"startTime":2020.896,"endTime":2023.986,"body":"and fulfill those orders, and you"},{"startTime":2023.986,"endTime":2025.386,"body":"can't do it with your current crew."},{"startTime":2025.696,"endTime":2028.146,"body":"So you need to add more people, right?"},{"startTime":2028.186,"endTime":2030.336,"body":"That's an easy one to kind of defend."},{"startTime":2030.486,"endTime":2033.826,"body":"Where it gets harder is you're"},{"startTime":2030.486,"endTime":2033.826,"body":"vying for greater market share."},{"startTime":2033.886,"endTime":2036.206,"body":"You think and you believe"},{"startTime":2033.886,"endTime":2036.206,"body":"in your heart of hearts."},{"startTime":2036.516,"endTime":2039.866,"body":"Not just you, the company as"},{"startTime":2036.516,"endTime":2039.866,"body":"a whole that adding people"},{"startTime":2039.876,"endTime":2041.616,"body":"will enable you to get there."},{"startTime":2041.766,"endTime":2046.716,"body":"How do you now relay that as a message"},{"startTime":2041.766,"endTime":2046.716,"body":"to the higher ups, the leadership"},{"startTime":2046.716,"endTime":2048.426,"body":"and say, this is what we need to do."},{"startTime":2048.436,"endTime":2049.186,"body":"And here's why."},{"startTime":2049.446,"endTime":2052.926,"body":"And I really think that the only"},{"startTime":2049.446,"endTime":2052.926,"body":"way to do that is to just talk in"},{"startTime":2053.116,"endTime":2056.616,"body":"numbers in terms they understand"},{"startTime":2053.116,"endTime":2056.616,"body":"adding two people will cost X."},{"startTime":2056.886,"endTime":2057.126,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2057.166,"endTime":2060.196,"body":"If we add them, we will reduce"},{"startTime":2057.166,"endTime":2060.196,"body":"the time to market by Y."},{"startTime":2060.546,"endTime":2065.796,"body":"And this, that then in turn will result"},{"startTime":2060.546,"endTime":2065.796,"body":"in, now these are all projections, and"},{"startTime":2065.796,"endTime":2069.336,"body":"be you can be conservative or you can"},{"startTime":2065.796,"endTime":2069.336,"body":"give the three point projections, right?"},{"startTime":2069.486,"endTime":2072.346,"body":"Extremely aggressive,"},{"startTime":2069.486,"endTime":2072.346,"body":"conservative, moderate, whatever."},{"startTime":2072.496,"endTime":2073.936,"body":"That's what I can suggest you do."},{"startTime":2073.976,"endTime":2076.596,"body":"I mean, this is basically what"},{"startTime":2073.976,"endTime":2076.596,"body":"financial advisors do to you, right?"},{"startTime":2076.596,"endTime":2078.536,"body":"They just say this is a a projection."},{"startTime":2078.596,"endTime":2081.466,"body":"I'm a product manager at a SMB, right?"},{"startTime":2081.466,"endTime":2087.967,"body":"It's a small business, 50 ish employees,"},{"startTime":2081.466,"endTime":2087.967,"body":"one product manager full time, right?"},{"startTime":2088.117,"endTime":2090.427,"body":"Maybe the product manager"},{"startTime":2088.117,"endTime":2090.427,"body":"has like two teams, right?"},{"startTime":2090.457,"endTime":2093.567,"body":"If I'm a product manager and my teams"},{"startTime":2090.457,"endTime":2093.567,"body":"could really benefit from agile coach."},{"startTime":2093.717,"endTime":2095.077,"body":"what is the case here?"},{"startTime":2095.392,"endTime":2098.602,"body":"Where I could lobby my management"},{"startTime":2095.392,"endTime":2098.602,"body":"to say, , Hey, let's bring like"},{"startTime":2098.622,"endTime":2101.962,"body":"six months of an agile coach, I"},{"startTime":2098.622,"endTime":2101.962,"body":"think could really accelerate us."},{"startTime":2102.182,"endTime":2107.462,"body":"What is the case here that I could make"},{"startTime":2102.182,"endTime":2107.462,"body":"to my company to have them spend six"},{"startTime":2107.462,"endTime":2111.392,"body":"months with a contracted firm to bring"},{"startTime":2107.462,"endTime":2111.392,"body":"an agile coach in how can I convince them"},{"startTime":2111.542,"endTime":2116.812,"body":"that like, I already know that an agile"},{"startTime":2111.542,"endTime":2116.812,"body":"coach constantly pressing on both the"},{"startTime":2116.812,"endTime":2119.502,"body":"team and the organization to develop."},{"startTime":2119.652,"endTime":2122.952,"body":"Some of these things that I know the team"},{"startTime":2119.652,"endTime":2122.952,"body":"and the organization need to develop."},{"startTime":2122.952,"endTime":2125.792,"body":"I need someone to coach both"},{"startTime":2122.952,"endTime":2125.792,"body":"teams and the organizations."},{"startTime":2125.942,"endTime":2129.782,"body":"to kind of evolve their practices,"},{"startTime":2125.942,"endTime":2129.782,"body":"and I, again, I'm a product manager"},{"startTime":2129.782,"endTime":2132.522,"body":"with two teams, so I have two full"},{"startTime":2129.782,"endTime":2132.522,"body":"time jobs, so I can't just do it."},{"startTime":2132.762,"endTime":2136.412,"body":"So like, how can I arm the"},{"startTime":2132.762,"endTime":2136.412,"body":"Azure coach for success if I'm"},{"startTime":2136.412,"endTime":2137.682,"body":"lobbying for them to come in?"},{"startTime":2137.832,"endTime":2140.842,"body":"Yeah, I mean, one of the things"},{"startTime":2137.832,"endTime":2140.842,"body":"to do is to look at why what's"},{"startTime":2140.842,"endTime":2142.342,"body":"your conviction based upon, right?"},{"startTime":2142.392,"endTime":2145.072,"body":"You're obviously seeing"},{"startTime":2142.392,"endTime":2145.072,"body":"some dysfunction somewhere."},{"startTime":2145.362,"endTime":2150.412,"body":"So try and get that down on paper and"},{"startTime":2145.362,"endTime":2150.412,"body":"say, These are the processes that we're"},{"startTime":2150.412,"endTime":2152.342,"body":"doing today that aren't very good."},{"startTime":2152.372,"endTime":2153.302,"body":"They're not efficient."},{"startTime":2153.352,"endTime":2156.562,"body":"They're sometimes they're not even"},{"startTime":2153.352,"endTime":2156.562,"body":"necessary and you could look at"},{"startTime":2156.712,"endTime":2158.562,"body":"the whole value chain model, right?"},{"startTime":2158.592,"endTime":2162.362,"body":"And look from start to finish all of"},{"startTime":2158.592,"endTime":2162.362,"body":"the operations that need to happen"},{"startTime":2162.492,"endTime":2164.152,"body":"in various parts of the organization."},{"startTime":2164.152,"endTime":2167.482,"body":"You can map those out pretty quickly"},{"startTime":2164.152,"endTime":2167.482,"body":"in a day or so you could come up with"},{"startTime":2167.482,"endTime":2170.782,"body":"this and say, here are all the things"},{"startTime":2167.482,"endTime":2170.782,"body":"that We do, we do X and then there's"},{"startTime":2170.782,"endTime":2174.222,"body":"a wait time of three days because"},{"startTime":2170.782,"endTime":2174.222,"body":"that's how long it takes for someone"},{"startTime":2174.222,"endTime":2176.412,"body":"to give an approval and then we do Y."},{"startTime":2176.562,"endTime":2181.422,"body":"So, Net net is you will simply map those"},{"startTime":2176.562,"endTime":2181.422,"body":"out and say here are the inefficiencies"},{"startTime":2181.452,"endTime":2185.652,"body":"that we have in order to remediate"},{"startTime":2181.452,"endTime":2185.652,"body":"these We need to bring in a coach that"},{"startTime":2185.652,"endTime":2190.222,"body":"can coach our folks to do things in a"},{"startTime":2185.652,"endTime":2190.222,"body":"different way And if we do remediate"},{"startTime":2190.262,"endTime":2194.522,"body":"those Where's the payback if you"},{"startTime":2190.262,"endTime":2194.522,"body":"can enumerate that payback, right?"},{"startTime":2194.532,"endTime":2196.172,"body":"So what does it mean to a company?"},{"startTime":2196.232,"endTime":2198.032,"body":"Smb Like a product manager with two teams."},{"startTime":2198.042,"endTime":2200.052,"body":"What does it mean to"},{"startTime":2198.042,"endTime":2200.052,"body":"you if you could reduce?"},{"startTime":2200.052,"endTime":2201.672,"body":"the delays that you have Right."},{"startTime":2201.672,"endTime":2203.802,"body":"In your processing by 50%."},{"startTime":2204.022,"endTime":2204.592,"body":"20%."},{"startTime":2204.692,"endTime":2207.212,"body":"And that allows you to then"},{"startTime":2204.692,"endTime":2207.212,"body":"put a dollar on it, right?"},{"startTime":2207.372,"endTime":2210.172,"body":"that's not necessarily inside of"},{"startTime":2207.372,"endTime":2210.172,"body":"your teams, that might be out."},{"startTime":2210.277,"endTime":2210.677,"body":"That's organizational."},{"startTime":2210.737,"endTime":2211.477,"body":"The broader organization."},{"startTime":2211.507,"endTime":2211.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2211.797,"endTime":2211.917,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2211.917,"endTime":2212.117,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2212.167,"endTime":2213.607,"body":"The tough part of this."},{"startTime":2213.757,"endTime":2217.897,"body":"It is absolutely, the executives will"},{"startTime":2213.757,"endTime":2217.897,"body":"completely understand the reason for it."},{"startTime":2218.187,"endTime":2220.977,"body":"And I think it will be"},{"startTime":2218.187,"endTime":2220.977,"body":"easier to convince them."},{"startTime":2221.127,"endTime":2225.007,"body":"The middle managers will look"},{"startTime":2221.127,"endTime":2225.007,"body":"at you and say, Brian, it sounds"},{"startTime":2225.007,"endTime":2225.927,"body":"like you're finger pointing."},{"startTime":2225.957,"endTime":2231.287,"body":"It sounds like you're saying, decisions"},{"startTime":2225.957,"endTime":2231.287,"body":"Drag on and are delayed because"},{"startTime":2231.287,"endTime":2235.417,"body":"you can't get the specific middle"},{"startTime":2231.287,"endTime":2235.417,"body":"managers signoffs that you need."},{"startTime":2235.567,"endTime":2237.597,"body":"And it just sounds like you"},{"startTime":2235.567,"endTime":2237.597,"body":"don't have a good relationship"},{"startTime":2237.597,"endTime":2238.607,"body":"with these middle managers."},{"startTime":2238.887,"endTime":2240.737,"body":"Sounds like a you problem, Brian."},{"startTime":2240.767,"endTime":2241.387,"body":"That's what it sounds like."},{"startTime":2241.387,"endTime":2242.617,"body":"Sounds like you being a troublemaker."},{"startTime":2242.667,"endTime":2242.917,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2243.177,"endTime":2246.307,"body":"Or we're doing things we've done"},{"startTime":2243.177,"endTime":2246.307,"body":"this way and it's worked fine."},{"startTime":2246.497,"endTime":2246.857,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2246.947,"endTime":2247.107,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2247.107,"endTime":2247.897,"body":"And you get that."},{"startTime":2247.987,"endTime":2248.167,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2248.167,"endTime":2250.527,"body":"Other product managers"},{"startTime":2248.167,"endTime":2250.527,"body":"don't have this problem, Om."},{"startTime":2250.547,"endTime":2252.977,"body":"It sounds like a, it"},{"startTime":2250.547,"endTime":2252.977,"body":"sounds like a you problem."},{"startTime":2253.007,"endTime":2254.897,"body":"It sounds like a personal"},{"startTime":2253.007,"endTime":2254.897,"body":"problem with you."},{"startTime":2255.062,"endTime":2257.112,"body":"You're, you're hitting real close."},{"startTime":2257.152,"endTime":2257.912,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":2258.022,"endTime":2258.612,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":2258.612,"endTime":2259.382,"body":"I've been there."},{"startTime":2259.432,"endTime":2260.392,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":2260.392,"endTime":2261.782,"body":"I can relate to this, right?"},{"startTime":2261.982,"endTime":2265.732,"body":"So one of the things that can help"},{"startTime":2261.982,"endTime":2265.732,"body":"is this, you don't necessarily have"},{"startTime":2265.732,"endTime":2269.632,"body":"to go the whole Wait, meaning don't"},{"startTime":2265.732,"endTime":2269.632,"body":"say we need to bring a, an agile"},{"startTime":2269.652,"endTime":2271.932,"body":"coach in for six months, for example."},{"startTime":2271.932,"endTime":2275.772,"body":"you could say, well, let's bring"},{"startTime":2271.932,"endTime":2275.772,"body":"somebody in to do an assessment and"},{"startTime":2275.772,"endTime":2279.432,"body":"it's a lower cost because they're"},{"startTime":2275.772,"endTime":2279.432,"body":"only here for a short period of time."},{"startTime":2279.582,"endTime":2281.232,"body":"They're not vested in us, right?"},{"startTime":2281.252,"endTime":2283.502,"body":"They're just going to do an assessment"},{"startTime":2281.252,"endTime":2283.502,"body":"and they're going to give you."},{"startTime":2283.652,"endTime":2286.682,"body":"An assessment report that"},{"startTime":2283.652,"endTime":2286.682,"body":"says, here's how things are."},{"startTime":2286.832,"endTime":2288.442,"body":"And then you can say, okay, thank you."},{"startTime":2288.442,"endTime":2289.022,"body":"And let them go."},{"startTime":2289.052,"endTime":2289.622,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2289.662,"endTime":2293.232,"body":"Or you could say, We could really"},{"startTime":2289.662,"endTime":2293.232,"body":"benefit from improvement on this."},{"startTime":2293.382,"endTime":2296.812,"body":"So armed with that knowledge"},{"startTime":2293.382,"endTime":2296.812,"body":"now, which is evidence."},{"startTime":2297.157,"endTime":2302.047,"body":"You can make a decision of hiring that"},{"startTime":2297.157,"endTime":2302.047,"body":"coach or whatever the decision might be."},{"startTime":2302.197,"endTime":2306.307,"body":"So going in a little bit as an"},{"startTime":2302.197,"endTime":2306.307,"body":"assessment initially, because you're"},{"startTime":2306.307,"endTime":2308.037,"body":"not spending a whole lot, right?"},{"startTime":2308.287,"endTime":2311.977,"body":"And the middle managers aren't"},{"startTime":2308.287,"endTime":2311.977,"body":"afraid that they're being perturbed"},{"startTime":2311.977,"endTime":2314.387,"body":"in any way, because this person"},{"startTime":2311.977,"endTime":2314.387,"body":"is just coming in to do a sense."},{"startTime":2314.417,"endTime":2315.867,"body":"You could throw out what they say."},{"startTime":2315.867,"endTime":2317.157,"body":"Like that, that's a great point."},{"startTime":2317.297,"endTime":2320.947,"body":"Because potentially, if it's a good"},{"startTime":2317.297,"endTime":2320.947,"body":"assessment, they could be giving you."},{"startTime":2321.242,"endTime":2323.172,"body":"Your quantitative data"},{"startTime":2321.242,"endTime":2323.172,"body":"that you're looking for."},{"startTime":2323.182,"endTime":2327.662,"body":"Hey, on average, your teams wait for"},{"startTime":2323.182,"endTime":2327.662,"body":"X number of days for a decision to me."},{"startTime":2327.672,"endTime":2330.918,"body":"Do you want to bring that number down?"},{"startTime":2331.068,"endTime":2334.408,"body":"maybe you need to use a tool"},{"startTime":2331.068,"endTime":2334.408,"body":"of organizational design"},{"startTime":2334.558,"endTime":2335.508,"body":"to bring that number down."},{"startTime":2335.608,"endTime":2339.698,"body":"Oh, well, we never considered that"},{"startTime":2335.608,"endTime":2339.698,"body":"organizational design could be a tool."},{"startTime":2339.848,"endTime":2345.428,"body":"To reduce our reduce cognitive load on"},{"startTime":2339.848,"endTime":2345.428,"body":"teams or reduce the time with which to"},{"startTime":2345.428,"endTime":2351.118,"body":"make decisions  it seems that you wouldn't"},{"startTime":2345.428,"endTime":2351.118,"body":"have to make such a difficult case to"},{"startTime":2351.118,"endTime":2355.578,"body":"just bring someone in to do an assessment,"},{"startTime":2351.118,"endTime":2355.578,"body":"just a couple of questions a week or two"},{"startTime":2355.578,"endTime":2359.188,"body":"hey, just ask a question, maybe, I don't"},{"startTime":2355.578,"endTime":2359.188,"body":"know how long a typical assessment is,"},{"startTime":2359.198,"endTime":2362.268,"body":"but Somewhere between two to four weeks,"},{"startTime":2359.198,"endTime":2362.268,"body":"depending on the size of the organization."},{"startTime":2362.318,"endTime":2365.188,"body":"just a couple bucks to find"},{"startTime":2362.318,"endTime":2365.188,"body":"out What's the temperature?"},{"startTime":2365.338,"endTime":2366.108,"body":"What's the temperature?"},{"startTime":2366.258,"endTime":2369.268,"body":"Yep, and you still have the option"},{"startTime":2366.258,"endTime":2369.268,"body":"to say, Yeah, we know how bad it"},{"startTime":2369.268,"endTime":2370.438,"body":"is now, but we're not gonna do it."},{"startTime":2370.588,"endTime":2371.628,"body":"Yeah, you still have that option."},{"startTime":2371.628,"endTime":2374.088,"body":"At least you're doing"},{"startTime":2371.628,"endTime":2374.088,"body":"that knowingly, right?"},{"startTime":2374.098,"endTime":2374.448,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2374.698,"endTime":2377.748,"body":"It's interesting that we came back"},{"startTime":2374.698,"endTime":2377.748,"body":"to get help or like one of our"},{"startTime":2377.748,"endTime":2382.558,"body":"least viewed sadly like people's"},{"startTime":2377.748,"endTime":2382.558,"body":"refusal to just ask for help."},{"startTime":2382.578,"endTime":2383.778,"body":"I don't know what that's rooted in."},{"startTime":2383.988,"endTime":2385.398,"body":"I really want to dig into that."},{"startTime":2385.598,"endTime":2389.638,"body":"I need to find somebody in the community,"},{"startTime":2385.598,"endTime":2389.638,"body":"somebody who's a psychology person."},{"startTime":2389.938,"endTime":2390.218,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2390.218,"endTime":2393.148,"body":"I need to find somebody in the community"},{"startTime":2390.218,"endTime":2393.148,"body":"that can really help us work through that."},{"startTime":2393.148,"endTime":2394.558,"body":"It's like, why are people."},{"startTime":2394.708,"endTime":2398.068,"body":"Especially professionals in a"},{"startTime":2394.708,"endTime":2398.068,"body":"career for a specific amount of"},{"startTime":2398.068,"endTime":2399.578,"body":"time why are they so resistant?"},{"startTime":2399.578,"endTime":2400.948,"body":"Well, I think a lot of"},{"startTime":2399.578,"endTime":2400.948,"body":"people feel challenged."},{"startTime":2400.948,"endTime":2404.168,"body":"I certainly think a lot of people feel"},{"startTime":2400.948,"endTime":2404.168,"body":"like it's a personal challenge to them."},{"startTime":2404.208,"endTime":2406.808,"body":"Yeah, when you say well get"},{"startTime":2404.208,"endTime":2406.808,"body":"help What do you mean get help?"},{"startTime":2406.868,"endTime":2407.418,"body":"That's crazy."},{"startTime":2407.418,"endTime":2411.718,"body":"Like it's I know what I'm doing It's"},{"startTime":2407.418,"endTime":2411.718,"body":"an it's a challenge their identity and"},{"startTime":2411.728,"endTime":2416.628,"body":"therefore like something very personal"},{"startTime":2411.728,"endTime":2416.628,"body":"and I get that I get that but I also think"},{"startTime":2416.638,"endTime":2422.298,"body":"it's There's got to be organizations where"},{"startTime":2416.638,"endTime":2422.298,"body":"the most successful organizations probably"},{"startTime":2422.298,"endTime":2424.498,"body":"have found a way to push through that."},{"startTime":2424.508,"endTime":2427.928,"body":"To say, hey, this, this thing that"},{"startTime":2424.508,"endTime":2427.928,"body":"you're feeling where it's an attack on"},{"startTime":2427.928,"endTime":2432.808,"body":"your on your identity, let's take that,"},{"startTime":2427.928,"endTime":2432.808,"body":"put it off to the side for a second."},{"startTime":2432.958,"endTime":2433.918,"body":"And just consider it."},{"startTime":2434.088,"endTime":2439.008,"body":"And then if you really have real"},{"startTime":2434.088,"endTime":2439.008,"body":"a real roadblock real, a real"},{"startTime":2439.158,"endTime":2442.728,"body":"harsh opinion on it, then bring"},{"startTime":2439.158,"endTime":2442.728,"body":"it back and we'll talk about it."},{"startTime":2442.928,"endTime":2447.738,"body":", but just try to put your personal first"},{"startTime":2442.928,"endTime":2447.738,"body":"take off to the side for a second."},{"startTime":2447.968,"endTime":2452.668,"body":"Turn it into an opportunity and not a"},{"startTime":2447.968,"endTime":2452.668,"body":"threat to you necessarily And for that"},{"startTime":2452.698,"endTime":2456.171,"body":"the organization needs to reassure"},{"startTime":2452.698,"endTime":2456.171,"body":"people You know, the employees, this"},{"startTime":2456.171,"endTime":2460.571,"body":"is not something that we're doing"},{"startTime":2456.171,"endTime":2460.571,"body":"in order to thin the crowd, right?"},{"startTime":2460.741,"endTime":2462.141,"body":"This is not a threat to you."},{"startTime":2462.371,"endTime":2466.471,"body":"If you embrace this and treat it as an"},{"startTime":2462.371,"endTime":2466.471,"body":"opportunity, we can all win from it."},{"startTime":2466.621,"endTime":2469.511,"body":"Some organizations do actually"},{"startTime":2466.621,"endTime":2469.511,"body":"do that very well, but they"},{"startTime":2469.511,"endTime":2470.671,"body":"tend to be the larger ones."},{"startTime":2470.711,"endTime":2474.881,"body":"it's organizations, well, either the"},{"startTime":2470.711,"endTime":2474.881,"body":"larger ones or the very, very small ones."},{"startTime":2474.881,"endTime":2475.295,"body":"Yeah, very small ones."},{"startTime":2475.295,"endTime":2475.606,"body":"They're the ones."},{"startTime":2475.736,"endTime":2478.436,"body":"Yeah, the entrepreneurial"},{"startTime":2475.736,"endTime":2478.436,"body":"ones, what they're invested in."},{"startTime":2478.436,"endTime":2482.886,"body":"I was telling you earlier, I had a one"},{"startTime":2478.436,"endTime":2482.886,"body":"on one with a coworker of mine recently."},{"startTime":2483.036,"endTime":2484.976,"body":"She's not going to listen to"},{"startTime":2483.036,"endTime":2484.976,"body":"this, but shout out to her"},{"startTime":2485.216,"endTime":2487.436,"body":"where I was saying some folks."},{"startTime":2487.626,"endTime":2492.216,"body":"just have a difficult time because"},{"startTime":2487.626,"endTime":2492.216,"body":"of the way they are raised like from"},{"startTime":2492.226,"endTime":2496.806,"body":"children, like the way they were"},{"startTime":2492.226,"endTime":2496.806,"body":"raised of dealing with , Hey I'm not"},{"startTime":2496.806,"endTime":2502.256,"body":"questioning your identity when I say"},{"startTime":2496.806,"endTime":2502.256,"body":"this is a bad decision or a bad action"},{"startTime":2502.256,"endTime":2503.506,"body":"that you've committed to, right?"},{"startTime":2503.656,"endTime":2507.676,"body":"But we need to talk about it and"},{"startTime":2503.656,"endTime":2507.676,"body":"then maybe make a different decision."},{"startTime":2507.866,"endTime":2510.046,"body":"And then like everything"},{"startTime":2507.866,"endTime":2510.046,"body":"just breaks down for them."},{"startTime":2510.046,"endTime":2515.196,"body":"that is a personal failing you've run"},{"startTime":2510.046,"endTime":2515.196,"body":"into and in business, I feel there's"},{"startTime":2515.196,"endTime":2519.426,"body":"a, it's almost taboo to say like there"},{"startTime":2515.196,"endTime":2519.426,"body":"are some people you will run into."},{"startTime":2519.716,"endTime":2523.316,"body":"That have personal failings like"},{"startTime":2519.716,"endTime":2523.316,"body":"this that can't see past this, that"},{"startTime":2523.366,"endTime":2527.256,"body":"the business will be limited while"},{"startTime":2523.366,"endTime":2527.256,"body":"those  are the decision makers."},{"startTime":2527.316,"endTime":2531.306,"body":"yeah, I blame the education system"},{"startTime":2527.316,"endTime":2531.306,"body":"because we're not really educated to"},{"startTime":2531.306,"endTime":2533.536,"body":"think about this in this way, right?"},{"startTime":2533.686,"endTime":2536.326,"body":"We're not educated to say,"},{"startTime":2533.686,"endTime":2536.326,"body":"Okay, we have a problem."},{"startTime":2536.376,"endTime":2538.096,"body":"Tackle the problem, not the person."},{"startTime":2538.296,"endTime":2542.196,"body":"Unfortunately, people immediately look"},{"startTime":2538.296,"endTime":2542.196,"body":"at it and say, it's your decision."},{"startTime":2542.366,"endTime":2544.356,"body":"And then you go on the offensive now."},{"startTime":2544.366,"endTime":2544.696,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2544.916,"endTime":2545.676,"body":"It's my decision."},{"startTime":2545.676,"endTime":2546.426,"body":"It was the right one."},{"startTime":2546.426,"endTime":2546.906,"body":"You don't know."},{"startTime":2546.906,"endTime":2547.506,"body":"I know what I'm doing."},{"startTime":2547.656,"endTime":2551.106,"body":"There should be a framework"},{"startTime":2547.656,"endTime":2551.106,"body":"to invoke to say, Oh, okay."},{"startTime":2551.106,"endTime":2552.696,"body":"Oh my, I understand why"},{"startTime":2551.106,"endTime":2552.696,"body":"you think like that."},{"startTime":2552.846,"endTime":2556.506,"body":"But let's take a step back for a second"},{"startTime":2552.846,"endTime":2556.506,"body":"and let's walk through the framework."},{"startTime":2556.656,"endTime":2559.706,"body":"And then there should be in"},{"startTime":2556.656,"endTime":2559.706,"body":"your mind, you should say,  Oh,"},{"startTime":2559.716,"endTime":2560.916,"body":"walk through the framework."},{"startTime":2561.006,"endTime":2561.906,"body":"Oh, Oh, okay."},{"startTime":2561.906,"endTime":2562.326,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":2562.326,"endTime":2562.556,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2562.606,"endTime":2564.186,"body":"Well, what is the situation?"},{"startTime":2564.516,"endTime":2566.046,"body":"What is the evidence I have in hand?"},{"startTime":2566.246,"endTime":2568.906,"body":"What is the experience that"},{"startTime":2566.246,"endTime":2568.906,"body":"leads me to believe this?"},{"startTime":2569.166,"endTime":2569.586,"body":"How does it."},{"startTime":2569.736,"endTime":2571.056,"body":"Conflict with the evidence or whatever."},{"startTime":2571.056,"endTime":2576.126,"body":"Like there should be a framework steps"},{"startTime":2571.056,"endTime":2576.126,"body":"inside of a framework that you walk"},{"startTime":2576.126,"endTime":2581.486,"body":"through to, to kind of check your"},{"startTime":2576.126,"endTime":2581.486,"body":"self to, to say, Oh, is my identity"},{"startTime":2581.616,"endTime":2585.226,"body":"or something I'm bringing to this"},{"startTime":2581.616,"endTime":2585.226,"body":"conversation coloring my opinion"},{"startTime":2585.236,"endTime":2587.196,"body":"of the thing to let me not see it."},{"startTime":2587.196,"endTime":2587.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2587.761,"endTime":2589.281,"body":"In its in its reality."},{"startTime":2589.291,"endTime":2592.601,"body":"Yeah, I mean, there's a coaching"},{"startTime":2589.291,"endTime":2592.601,"body":"model that kind of touches on this."},{"startTime":2592.601,"endTime":2596.531,"body":"I don't think it tackles the problem"},{"startTime":2592.601,"endTime":2596.531,"body":"head on necessarily where you bring this"},{"startTime":2596.561,"endTime":2599.161,"body":"out of the coachee slowly over time."},{"startTime":2599.271,"endTime":2602.521,"body":"And, but I don't think that's really,"},{"startTime":2599.271,"endTime":2602.521,"body":"I don't think that's the instrument"},{"startTime":2602.521,"endTime":2605.051,"body":"that tackles this problem head on."},{"startTime":2605.171,"endTime":2605.571,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2605.701,"endTime":2609.261,"body":"I just think it tangentially touches"},{"startTime":2605.701,"endTime":2609.261,"body":"on, this is, this is one for another"},{"startTime":2609.261,"endTime":2613.351,"body":"podcast, we'll have to find somebody"},{"startTime":2609.261,"endTime":2613.351,"body":"who this is, this is their niche."},{"startTime":2613.381,"endTime":2615.051,"body":"Yeah Hey, you've discovered."},{"startTime":2615.201,"endTime":2616.041,"body":"An issue."},{"startTime":2616.281,"endTime":2619.231,"body":"It might be something personal to you."},{"startTime":2619.381,"endTime":2623.471,"body":"Let's break it down and make you a"},{"startTime":2619.381,"endTime":2623.471,"body":"better leader because we've learned"},{"startTime":2623.471,"endTime":2624.501,"body":"how to break this thing down."},{"startTime":2624.811,"endTime":2625.861,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2625.871,"endTime":2628.751,"body":"what we're talking about now"},{"startTime":2625.871,"endTime":2628.751,"body":"is a leadership failing that"},{"startTime":2628.751,"endTime":2631.371,"body":"needs to be overcome for you"},{"startTime":2628.751,"endTime":2631.371,"body":"to succeed in your business."},{"startTime":2631.521,"endTime":2634.741,"body":"And I feel like when we're at the"},{"startTime":2631.521,"endTime":2634.741,"body":"point of pointing out leadership things"},{"startTime":2634.751,"endTime":2637.831,"body":"that need to be advanced in order for"},{"startTime":2634.751,"endTime":2637.831,"body":"your business to advance, we're done."},{"startTime":2637.881,"endTime":2638.701,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":2638.791,"endTime":2639.501,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2639.761,"endTime":2642.871,"body":"Well, thank you all for staying"},{"startTime":2639.761,"endTime":2642.871,"body":"with us on this one too."},{"startTime":2642.871,"endTime":2646.221,"body":"And let us know down below what"},{"startTime":2642.871,"endTime":2646.221,"body":"you'd like us to talk about next."},{"startTime":2646.331,"endTime":2647.221,"body":"And ring that bell."},{"startTime":2647.371,"endTime":2648.361,"body":"Like and subscribe."}]}