{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":13.297,"body":"Welcome back to arguing the agile."},{"startTime":13.357,"endTime":16.317,"body":"I don't know how much arguing we'll"},{"startTime":13.357,"endTime":16.317,"body":"have today because I need advice today."},{"startTime":16.317,"endTime":16.797,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":16.897,"endTime":17.577,"body":"Let's see how this goes."},{"startTime":17.627,"endTime":17.947,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":17.987,"endTime":18.257,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":18.267,"endTime":23.427,"body":"So in all of the books that you read about"},{"startTime":18.267,"endTime":23.427,"body":"product management, agility, the business"},{"startTime":23.427,"endTime":24.967,"body":"operations, product management, right."},{"startTime":24.977,"endTime":29.787,"body":"They'll tell you if you have issues"},{"startTime":24.977,"endTime":29.787,"body":"with your team or team members, Like"},{"startTime":29.937,"endTime":34.257,"body":"talk to your engineering management"},{"startTime":29.937,"endTime":34.257,"body":"or your peer in engineering And then"},{"startTime":34.267,"endTime":37.147,"body":"work it out and everything will be"},{"startTime":34.267,"endTime":37.147,"body":"great and we'll all hold hands and"},{"startTime":37.157,"endTime":40.247,"body":"sit by the campfire That's that's what"},{"startTime":37.157,"endTime":40.247,"body":"they tell you in the books, right?"},{"startTime":40.317,"endTime":43.967,"body":"And that's what the influencers online"},{"startTime":40.317,"endTime":43.967,"body":"will tell you influencers Influencers."},{"startTime":43.997,"endTime":48.627,"body":"that's not great advice because"},{"startTime":43.997,"endTime":48.627,"body":"what if my hang up is between myself"},{"startTime":48.737,"endTime":52.487,"body":"and engineering leadership, what if"},{"startTime":48.737,"endTime":52.487,"body":"engineering leadership is saying like,"},{"startTime":52.487,"endTime":56.358,"body":"well things will work out, you just need"},{"startTime":52.487,"endTime":56.358,"body":"more time for the team to develop, right?"},{"startTime":56.358,"endTime":58.358,"body":"what if that is the response?"},{"startTime":58.508,"endTime":61.738,"body":"First of all, my advice is going to"},{"startTime":58.508,"endTime":61.738,"body":"be worth every penny you pay for."},{"startTime":61.888,"endTime":66.588,"body":"So whenever you hear something like this,"},{"startTime":61.888,"endTime":66.588,"body":"We have to resist the temptation of being"},{"startTime":66.688,"endTime":69.018,"body":"kind of like uni dimensional, right?"},{"startTime":69.018,"endTime":71.758,"body":"This is how it is with that organization."},{"startTime":71.768,"endTime":74.358,"body":"Because maybe you have"},{"startTime":71.768,"endTime":74.358,"body":"variances in place, right?"},{"startTime":74.358,"endTime":75.627,"body":"So it's worth talking about that."},{"startTime":75.777,"endTime":80.137,"body":"But engineering leadership they"},{"startTime":75.777,"endTime":80.137,"body":"typically don't necessarily work"},{"startTime":80.138,"endTime":84.762,"body":"with product folks on that level and"},{"startTime":80.138,"endTime":84.762,"body":"say, yeah, we own this issue, right?"},{"startTime":84.912,"endTime":89.422,"body":"Especially if you have other product"},{"startTime":84.912,"endTime":89.422,"body":"leaders where this issue is not reported"},{"startTime":89.702,"endTime":92.942,"body":"by them or it's not as exacerbated, right?"},{"startTime":93.042,"endTime":95.822,"body":"So I think it's worth just"},{"startTime":93.042,"endTime":95.822,"body":"quickly touching on how did"},{"startTime":95.832,"endTime":97.302,"body":"you surface this, right?"},{"startTime":97.312,"endTime":100.072,"body":"How did you come across this"},{"startTime":97.312,"endTime":100.072,"body":"issue to begin with so that we"},{"startTime":100.072,"endTime":101.712,"body":"can have some context around this?"},{"startTime":101.862,"endTime":104.862,"body":"In this example I was at"},{"startTime":101.862,"endTime":104.862,"body":"an organization where."},{"startTime":105.012,"endTime":109.242,"body":"The team members had a lot"},{"startTime":105.012,"endTime":109.242,"body":"of issues delivering what the"},{"startTime":109.252,"endTime":111.442,"body":"business was asking to production."},{"startTime":111.592,"endTime":115.082,"body":"We would have a refinement,"},{"startTime":111.592,"endTime":115.082,"body":"we'd break an issue down."},{"startTime":115.357,"endTime":117.677,"body":"The team would say, yes, this"},{"startTime":115.357,"endTime":117.677,"body":"is similar to something else."},{"startTime":117.677,"endTime":118.367,"body":"We did in the past."},{"startTime":118.367,"endTime":119.877,"body":"We think we can get"},{"startTime":118.367,"endTime":119.877,"body":"this done in one sprint."},{"startTime":120.107,"endTime":121.967,"body":"we're going to point value at a five."},{"startTime":122.037,"endTime":122.807,"body":"I'll say, cool."},{"startTime":122.967,"endTime":123.647,"body":"It's a five."},{"startTime":123.912,"endTime":126.712,"body":"It's the highest priority feel free to"},{"startTime":123.912,"endTime":126.712,"body":"push anything out of the way that you"},{"startTime":126.712,"endTime":128.422,"body":"need to to get this one thing done."},{"startTime":128.572,"endTime":129.512,"body":"It's the sprint goal."},{"startTime":129.662,"endTime":132.942,"body":"And then, come the end of the sprint , we"},{"startTime":129.662,"endTime":132.942,"body":"couldn't get it done, maybe there was"},{"startTime":132.942,"endTime":136.782,"body":"some delays, maybe we ran into some"},{"startTime":132.942,"endTime":136.782,"body":"roadblock and then we don't get it done,"},{"startTime":136.932,"endTime":138.252,"body":"bringing it to the next sprint planning."},{"startTime":138.252,"endTime":139.562,"body":", are you sure you don't"},{"startTime":138.252,"endTime":139.562,"body":"want to break it down?"},{"startTime":139.562,"endTime":140.062,"body":"No, no, no, no."},{"startTime":140.062,"endTime":140.622,"body":"We got it."},{"startTime":140.632,"endTime":143.262,"body":", we're most of the way done because"},{"startTime":140.632,"endTime":143.262,"body":"of what we did last sprint and"},{"startTime":143.262,"endTime":145.802,"body":"then , come the end of this sprint,"},{"startTime":143.262,"endTime":145.802,"body":"we're still not delivering it."},{"startTime":145.842,"endTime":148.612,"body":"So now it's been two sprints with this 3."},{"startTime":148.612,"endTime":153.572,"body":"5 point, item that everyone swears"},{"startTime":148.612,"endTime":153.572,"body":"every day through the daily standup is."},{"startTime":153.722,"endTime":155.072,"body":"Got no blockers to work on."},{"startTime":155.092,"endTime":156.302,"body":"Everything's going great."},{"startTime":156.452,"endTime":157.742,"body":"that's been the"},{"startTime":156.452,"endTime":157.742,"body":"development team every day."},{"startTime":157.922,"endTime":160.752,"body":"And,  at the end of two sprints,"},{"startTime":157.922,"endTime":160.752,"body":"I'm really looking at my engineering"},{"startTime":160.762,"endTime":164.872,"body":"leadership my team leads or my"},{"startTime":160.762,"endTime":164.872,"body":"director of engineering or whoever I"},{"startTime":164.882,"endTime":168.512,"body":"have, whatever size company, and I'm"},{"startTime":164.882,"endTime":168.512,"body":"really looking at them to say dude,"},{"startTime":168.512,"endTime":170.082,"body":"can you throw me a lifeline here?"},{"startTime":170.092,"endTime":171.082,"body":"Can you get involved?"},{"startTime":171.082,"endTime":174.152,"body":"Can you please help  because"},{"startTime":171.082,"endTime":174.152,"body":"something is wrong here short"},{"startTime":174.162,"endTime":176.092,"body":"of me, the product manager."},{"startTime":176.242,"endTime":177.572,"body":"Waiting into code."},{"startTime":177.722,"endTime":180.532,"body":"I don't know where to go from here,"},{"startTime":180.582,"endTime":184.782,"body":"I was like, Hey man, like"},{"startTime":180.582,"endTime":184.782,"body":"new teams need time to form."},{"startTime":184.782,"endTime":186.842,"body":"They're just working on"},{"startTime":184.782,"endTime":186.842,"body":"their lines of communication."},{"startTime":186.842,"endTime":188.952,"body":"They're just figuring out how"},{"startTime":186.842,"endTime":188.952,"body":"to escalate and stuff like that."},{"startTime":189.182,"endTime":190.932,"body":"I could deal with that for a sprint."},{"startTime":191.082,"endTime":192.052,"body":"Maybe two."},{"startTime":192.252,"endTime":196.752,"body":"So, for me moving the stuff that's not"},{"startTime":192.252,"endTime":196.752,"body":"done at the end of a sprint, moving"},{"startTime":196.752,"endTime":200.102,"body":"it to the next sprint, like a puppy"},{"startTime":196.752,"endTime":200.102,"body":"dies somewhere when that happens."},{"startTime":200.102,"endTime":201.032,"body":"It's blasphemy."},{"startTime":201.282,"endTime":205.252,"body":"It creates these zombie Work"},{"startTime":201.282,"endTime":205.252,"body":"items, PBI's, and never die."},{"startTime":205.602,"endTime":208.032,"body":"And that can be for a"},{"startTime":205.602,"endTime":208.032,"body":"multitude of reasons."},{"startTime":208.052,"endTime":210.012,"body":"That's not this podcast though, right?"},{"startTime":210.292,"endTime":213.322,"body":"You know, maybe requirements aren't"},{"startTime":210.292,"endTime":213.322,"body":"clear, sizing's not right, whatever."},{"startTime":213.562,"endTime":217.772,"body":"I completely agree there's a million"},{"startTime":213.562,"endTime":217.772,"body":"reasons technical data, a million reasons."},{"startTime":217.802,"endTime":220.402,"body":"But none of that has been"},{"startTime":217.802,"endTime":220.402,"body":"escalated to the product manager."},{"startTime":220.412,"endTime":223.272,"body":"It's just, we got this,"},{"startTime":220.412,"endTime":223.272,"body":"we're working on it."},{"startTime":223.472,"endTime":223.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":223.732,"endTime":227.352,"body":"And then I'm asking my tech lead or"},{"startTime":223.732,"endTime":227.352,"body":"I'm asking my engineering manager,"},{"startTime":227.352,"endTime":229.572,"body":"guys, the team says they got this."},{"startTime":229.722,"endTime":233.672,"body":"But I don't see any progress, and I'm"},{"startTime":229.722,"endTime":233.672,"body":"starting to get real worried about this."},{"startTime":233.822,"endTime":236.832,"body":"They're probably getting the same"},{"startTime":233.822,"endTime":236.832,"body":"watermelon reports that your stakeholders"},{"startTime":236.832,"endTime":238.252,"body":"are getting, or your leadership's getting."},{"startTime":238.282,"endTime":241.222,"body":"Everything's fine, everything's"},{"startTime":238.282,"endTime":241.222,"body":"green on the outside, but"},{"startTime":241.222,"endTime":242.622,"body":"it's really red on the inside."},{"startTime":242.772,"endTime":244.352,"body":"So let's dig through this, right?"},{"startTime":244.372,"endTime":248.942,"body":"When it happens, what is The first thing"},{"startTime":244.372,"endTime":248.942,"body":"that you do when people don't deliver in"},{"startTime":248.942,"endTime":253.712,"body":"a sprint, like the day, the engineering"},{"startTime":248.942,"endTime":253.712,"body":"leadership, did they take accountability"},{"startTime":253.712,"endTime":257.592,"body":"and say, let's dig deeper and do some"},{"startTime":253.712,"endTime":257.592,"body":"kind of retro on what's going on?"},{"startTime":257.592,"endTime":259.242,"body":"Or do they simply  move"},{"startTime":257.592,"endTime":259.242,"body":"it to the next sprint?"},{"startTime":259.392,"endTime":261.102,"body":"That's kind of like the de facto answer."},{"startTime":261.162,"endTime":264.752,"body":"the de facto answer right now is"},{"startTime":261.162,"endTime":264.752,"body":"let's try not to rock any boats."},{"startTime":264.792,"endTime":265.982,"body":"Like it's a new team."},{"startTime":265.992,"endTime":267.322,"body":"I probably should have started with that."},{"startTime":267.362,"endTime":269.492,"body":"It's not a new team like"},{"startTime":267.362,"endTime":269.492,"body":"put together yesterday."},{"startTime":269.742,"endTime":270.892,"body":"They've been together a couple of months."},{"startTime":270.902,"endTime":275.492,"body":"It's a fairly new team,"},{"startTime":270.902,"endTime":275.492,"body":"but not like new new team."},{"startTime":275.722,"endTime":279.342,"body":"And the technology that they're"},{"startTime":275.722,"endTime":279.342,"body":"working in is familiar to them."},{"startTime":279.372,"endTime":281.652,"body":"So they're not working in a new"},{"startTime":279.372,"endTime":281.652,"body":"tech stack or anything like that."},{"startTime":281.802,"endTime":284.392,"body":"So did they come up with dependencies?"},{"startTime":284.392,"endTime":288.312,"body":"that couldn't be met or like, what"},{"startTime":284.392,"endTime":288.312,"body":"is the team saying to the engineering"},{"startTime":288.312,"endTime":292.502,"body":"manager  these are the reasons or this"},{"startTime":288.312,"endTime":292.502,"body":"is a main reason why we were not able"},{"startTime":292.502,"endTime":296.382,"body":"to finish, If that's not happening,"},{"startTime":292.502,"endTime":296.382,"body":"we simply just move the work forward."},{"startTime":296.532,"endTime":298.222,"body":"That's a process issue right there."},{"startTime":298.572,"endTime":298.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":298.952,"endTime":299.492,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":299.542,"endTime":303.782,"body":"I assume that they're trying to handle"},{"startTime":299.542,"endTime":303.782,"body":"as many edge cases that they dream"},{"startTime":303.782,"endTime":308.772,"body":"up as they encounter them or they're"},{"startTime":303.782,"endTime":308.772,"body":"attempting to bring new technologies"},{"startTime":308.772,"endTime":310.442,"body":"into the stack they're unfamiliar with."},{"startTime":310.452,"endTime":314.302,"body":"And that's where the extra time is,"},{"startTime":310.452,"endTime":314.302,"body":"is working through a new technology"},{"startTime":314.302,"endTime":315.512,"body":"that they found to solve this."},{"startTime":315.662,"endTime":317.732,"body":"that could be dealt with"},{"startTime":315.662,"endTime":317.732,"body":"with our current technology."},{"startTime":317.912,"endTime":321.572,"body":"Like before you go and grab a new"},{"startTime":317.912,"endTime":321.572,"body":"technology off the shelf or start"},{"startTime":321.572,"endTime":324.032,"body":"deviating and adding acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":324.062,"endTime":327.242,"body":"'cause I've worked with teams where the"},{"startTime":324.062,"endTime":327.242,"body":"engineer will add new acceptance criteria"},{"startTime":327.242,"endTime":330.652,"body":"as they take care of things oh, we didn't"},{"startTime":327.242,"endTime":330.652,"body":"talk about this in the original story."},{"startTime":330.652,"endTime":334.292,"body":"I'm gonna  add this piece of acceptance"},{"startTime":330.652,"endTime":334.292,"body":"criteria that the code now handles"},{"startTime":334.602,"endTime":337.032,"body":"because we didn't think about it"},{"startTime":334.602,"endTime":337.032,"body":"when we originally planned it, so"},{"startTime":337.032,"endTime":338.502,"body":"I thought of this additional case."},{"startTime":338.652,"endTime":340.332,"body":"So rather than like bringing it back up."},{"startTime":340.482,"endTime":342.772,"body":"In a stand up of, Hey I"},{"startTime":340.482,"endTime":342.772,"body":"started to implement this"},{"startTime":342.772,"endTime":343.672,"body":"thing we were talking about."},{"startTime":343.822,"endTime":346.532,"body":"And I realized this"},{"startTime":343.822,"endTime":346.532,"body":"other thing could happen."},{"startTime":346.682,"endTime":350.752,"body":"Do you want me to take a little bit extra"},{"startTime":346.682,"endTime":350.752,"body":"time and code that path and take care"},{"startTime":350.752,"endTime":353.692,"body":"of it, or do you want to break that off"},{"startTime":350.752,"endTime":353.692,"body":"as a different, like we never had that,"},{"startTime":353.702,"endTime":358.092,"body":"that presenting that never happened"},{"startTime":353.702,"endTime":358.092,"body":"with me in the room, the engineer just"},{"startTime":358.092,"endTime":360.282,"body":"decided they were going to wrap it into."},{"startTime":360.412,"endTime":363.942,"body":"I almost don't even want to say it's scope"},{"startTime":360.412,"endTime":363.942,"body":"creep because like in an agile software"},{"startTime":363.942,"endTime":368.422,"body":"development, there really should not"},{"startTime":363.942,"endTime":368.422,"body":"be scope creep, but it kind of is scope"},{"startTime":368.422,"endTime":373.942,"body":"creep in terms of like I've inflated"},{"startTime":368.422,"endTime":373.942,"body":"the AC to now include these additional"},{"startTime":373.942,"endTime":376.262,"body":"things that I've dreamt up on my own."},{"startTime":376.272,"endTime":377.362,"body":"Like I so."},{"startTime":377.512,"endTime":378.572,"body":"Some of it is that."},{"startTime":378.722,"endTime":379.332,"body":"And it's normal."},{"startTime":379.342,"endTime":381.272,"body":"This is also, it's very prevalent."},{"startTime":381.312,"endTime":381.962,"body":"It's normal."},{"startTime":382.182,"endTime":386.492,"body":"This is akin to saying, well let's"},{"startTime":382.182,"endTime":386.492,"body":"say your story is to clean the house."},{"startTime":386.802,"endTime":390.432,"body":"So now, originally you just thought"},{"startTime":386.802,"endTime":390.432,"body":"about vacuuming and now you're saying,"},{"startTime":390.432,"endTime":394.852,"body":"well, we need to also mop everything and"},{"startTime":390.432,"endTime":394.852,"body":"we need to do deep cleaning everywhere."},{"startTime":394.852,"endTime":397.622,"body":"and then I turn around and then"},{"startTime":394.852,"endTime":397.622,"body":"tomorrow I come back, I'm pulling"},{"startTime":397.632,"endTime":399.292,"body":"to the driveway and you're outside."},{"startTime":399.502,"endTime":403.972,"body":"So like half the team is power washing"},{"startTime":399.502,"endTime":403.972,"body":"one side of the house and the other"},{"startTime":403.972,"endTime":407.512,"body":"side of the team is painting the"},{"startTime":403.972,"endTime":407.512,"body":"part that was power washed and dried"},{"startTime":407.522,"endTime":408.462,"body":"and I'm like, wait, wait a minute."},{"startTime":408.512,"endTime":409.932,"body":"I meant clean the inside of the house."},{"startTime":409.932,"endTime":411.052,"body":"Well, you didn't say inside."},{"startTime":411.052,"endTime":412.162,"body":"You said clean the house."},{"startTime":412.163,"endTime":414.802,"body":"So we started inside"},{"startTime":412.163,"endTime":414.802,"body":"and now we're outside."},{"startTime":415.002,"endTime":417.142,"body":"So it's just all going back to clarity,"},{"startTime":417.142,"endTime":420.482,"body":"but let's go back to the original"},{"startTime":417.142,"endTime":420.482,"body":"point about working with."},{"startTime":420.722,"endTime":421.472,"body":"The engineering manager."},{"startTime":421.502,"endTime":422.512,"body":"Are they engaged?"},{"startTime":422.512,"endTime":425.812,"body":"Because it's been my experience that"},{"startTime":422.512,"endTime":425.812,"body":"I've had engineering managers that are"},{"startTime":425.902,"endTime":430.412,"body":"deeply engaged and on the other end of"},{"startTime":425.902,"endTime":430.412,"body":"the spectrum, they have not been engaged."},{"startTime":430.422,"endTime":433.852,"body":"Well, I'm glad that we're going"},{"startTime":430.422,"endTime":433.852,"body":"here because I've had engineering"},{"startTime":433.852,"endTime":437.402,"body":"managers, that are really engaged,"},{"startTime":433.852,"endTime":437.402,"body":"that completely understand."},{"startTime":437.552,"endTime":441.652,"body":"Team dynamics, how great teams are"},{"startTime":437.552,"endTime":441.652,"body":"formed how great teams move through"},{"startTime":441.652,"endTime":447.892,"body":"those Tuckman steps, and I've also been"},{"startTime":441.652,"endTime":447.892,"body":"in organizations that when they scale"},{"startTime":447.902,"endTime":452.202,"body":"or they become successful, those same"},{"startTime":447.902,"endTime":452.202,"body":"engineering managers get overwhelmed when"},{"startTime":452.532,"endTime":456.972,"body":"they're no longer across two teams or"},{"startTime":452.532,"endTime":456.972,"body":"four teams, now they're across 16 teams."},{"startTime":457.636,"endTime":461.806,"body":"And now  they went from being here"},{"startTime":457.636,"endTime":461.806,"body":"with the water up to the neck to being"},{"startTime":461.806,"endTime":463.436,"body":"clearly over their head with the water."},{"startTime":463.436,"endTime":465.816,"body":"And now they are out of their element."},{"startTime":465.826,"endTime":470.726,"body":"Like I feel that that is probably not"},{"startTime":465.826,"endTime":470.726,"body":"talking about enough in our circles"},{"startTime":471.016,"endTime":474.256,"body":"of just people just being overwhelmed."},{"startTime":474.406,"endTime":477.526,"body":"Just because now they manage"},{"startTime":474.406,"endTime":477.526,"body":"more teams, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":477.526,"endTime":480.896,"body":"like a tech lead, for example,"},{"startTime":477.526,"endTime":480.896,"body":"a technical lead, a team lead"},{"startTime":480.896,"endTime":481.726,"body":"or whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":481.876,"endTime":484.716,"body":"I think of them in terms of the team"},{"startTime":481.876,"endTime":484.716,"body":"topologies, What is team topologies?"},{"startTime":484.796,"endTime":486.096,"body":"Do they call it a technical lead?"},{"startTime":486.096,"endTime":490.636,"body":"in team topologies, they have enabling"},{"startTime":486.096,"endTime":490.636,"body":"teams, and the enabling teams are"},{"startTime":490.636,"endTime":494.576,"body":"made up of what you would call lead,"},{"startTime":490.636,"endTime":494.576,"body":"like the leads from every team."},{"startTime":494.726,"endTime":498.436,"body":"together in one group would"},{"startTime":494.726,"endTime":498.436,"body":"be called an enabling team."},{"startTime":498.626,"endTime":502.936,"body":"so your rep to the enabling team, your"},{"startTime":498.626,"endTime":502.936,"body":"team lead or architect or whatever"},{"startTime":502.936,"endTime":503.976,"body":"you call in your organization."},{"startTime":504.286,"endTime":506.896,"body":"Like how many teams do they span?"},{"startTime":507.046,"endTime":509.266,"body":"How many teams can a team lead span?"},{"startTime":509.416,"endTime":514.596,"body":"when I was a manager of QA, for example,"},{"startTime":509.416,"endTime":514.596,"body":"how many teams can all my QA people be on?"},{"startTime":514.746,"endTime":518.726,"body":"Before I need to delegate to the different"},{"startTime":514.746,"endTime":518.726,"body":"teams like can I have like eight people"},{"startTime":518.726,"endTime":521.486,"body":"in the qa department and they all serve"},{"startTime":518.726,"endTime":521.486,"body":"on individual teams So now there's"},{"startTime":521.636,"endTime":527.166,"body":"eight product lines That each have a"},{"startTime":521.636,"endTime":527.166,"body":"qa person like can I now be effective?"},{"startTime":527.316,"endTime":531.956,"body":"as that individual qa person's lead"},{"startTime":527.316,"endTime":531.956,"body":"to grab stuff that falls between"},{"startTime":531.956,"endTime":535.256,"body":"the cracks to go between teams to"},{"startTime":531.956,"endTime":535.256,"body":"you know, I mean Or do I need to"},{"startTime":535.256,"endTime":537.576,"body":"put a person under me as a qa lead?"},{"startTime":537.576,"endTime":542.861,"body":"You In like this middle management kind of"},{"startTime":537.576,"endTime":542.861,"body":"tier to help relay to escalate the worst"},{"startTime":542.861,"endTime":546.231,"body":"problems that slip between the cracks"},{"startTime":542.861,"endTime":546.231,"body":"between Architecture and just like cross"},{"startTime":546.231,"endTime":549.671,"body":"team stuff and all that kind of stuff"},{"startTime":546.231,"endTime":549.671,"body":"like right there is a team of leads thing"},{"startTime":549.671,"endTime":554.761,"body":"happening here that nobody's really good"},{"startTime":549.671,"endTime":554.761,"body":"at that so like I went on this tangent"},{"startTime":554.761,"endTime":557.621,"body":"because you asked a simple question,"},{"startTime":554.761,"endTime":557.621,"body":"which is like You have a team lead, right?"},{"startTime":557.771,"endTime":563.701,"body":"I mean, I do on paper, except he or she"},{"startTime":557.771,"endTime":563.701,"body":"is across eight different teams and,"},{"startTime":563.711,"endTime":567.931,"body":"oh, and also they're the main architect"},{"startTime":563.711,"endTime":567.931,"body":"for this one product because they"},{"startTime":567.931,"endTime":570.901,"body":"used to work on as a developer before"},{"startTime":567.931,"endTime":570.901,"body":"they were promoted or whatever, like"},{"startTime":570.911,"endTime":572.901,"body":"that's a very real situation, right?"},{"startTime":572.901,"endTime":579.106,"body":"So like there is probably an upper limit"},{"startTime":572.901,"endTime":579.106,"body":"of how many teams, a team lead, right?"},{"startTime":579.256,"endTime":579.876,"body":"Can span."},{"startTime":580.026,"endTime":580.426,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":580.426,"endTime":581.496,"body":"I don't know what the number is."},{"startTime":581.556,"endTime":585.616,"body":"I've not read that anywhere, but you"},{"startTime":581.556,"endTime":585.616,"body":"know, just gut field tells me if it's"},{"startTime":585.616,"endTime":589.476,"body":"more than three or four, that technically"},{"startTime":585.616,"endTime":589.476,"body":"is going to be stretched pretty thin."},{"startTime":589.586,"endTime":593.256,"body":"Once you hit the number two, anything"},{"startTime":589.586,"endTime":593.256,"body":"above that is like super suspect."},{"startTime":593.406,"endTime":593.596,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":593.746,"endTime":593.966,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":593.966,"endTime":598.966,"body":"It's just a big load you know, on the"},{"startTime":593.966,"endTime":598.966,"body":"person because they are a lead, right?"},{"startTime":599.166,"endTime":601.886,"body":"And oftentimes they reach left and right."},{"startTime":601.886,"endTime":604.806,"body":"So tech leads, engineering leads,"},{"startTime":601.886,"endTime":604.806,"body":"et cetera, they work closely."},{"startTime":604.816,"endTime":607.696,"body":"If you have a model where you"},{"startTime":604.816,"endTime":607.696,"body":"have other leads, you may have"},{"startTime":607.716,"endTime":609.706,"body":"QA leads, for example, right?"},{"startTime":609.976,"endTime":615.091,"body":"And I've been on teams where, You have BA"},{"startTime":609.976,"endTime":615.091,"body":"leads, especially in a scaled environment."},{"startTime":615.101,"endTime":619.921,"body":"So you're collaborating with"},{"startTime":615.101,"endTime":619.921,"body":"these other X Y Z leads."},{"startTime":620.271,"endTime":622.471,"body":"And if you're doing that,"},{"startTime":620.271,"endTime":622.471,"body":"then, yeah, I agree with you."},{"startTime":622.471,"endTime":624.171,"body":"Two teams is probably the max."},{"startTime":624.321,"endTime":627.301,"body":"All right, so let's go back to the"},{"startTime":624.321,"endTime":627.301,"body":"beginning of the podcast where we're"},{"startTime":627.301,"endTime":632.631,"body":"talking about tech leads and their role"},{"startTime":627.301,"endTime":632.631,"body":"in teams delivering product managers"},{"startTime":632.781,"endTime":636.321,"body":"trying to understand working with"},{"startTime":632.781,"endTime":636.321,"body":"the tech leads, what's going on, if"},{"startTime":636.341,"endTime":639.791,"body":"everything's working well and you're"},{"startTime":636.341,"endTime":639.791,"body":"delivering, nobody cares, right?"},{"startTime":639.941,"endTime":640.941,"body":"No, nobody cares."},{"startTime":640.961,"endTime":644.891,"body":"They want more, maybe faster, My"},{"startTime":640.961,"endTime":644.891,"body":"magic metric number right there."},{"startTime":644.901,"endTime":646.891,"body":"It's like, Brian, how do we"},{"startTime":644.901,"endTime":646.891,"body":"measure development teams?"},{"startTime":646.891,"endTime":650.301,"body":"I say, well, if you're delivering"},{"startTime":646.891,"endTime":650.301,"body":"working software on a regular basis,"},{"startTime":650.521,"endTime":653.791,"body":"no matter if that regular basis is"},{"startTime":650.521,"endTime":653.791,"body":"once a month or once a week, once every"},{"startTime":653.791,"endTime":655.716,"body":"six weeks or whatever, like it doesn't"},{"startTime":653.791,"endTime":655.716,"body":"matter what it is, you're delivering."},{"startTime":655.866,"endTime":657.216,"body":"Nobody complains, right?"},{"startTime":657.246,"endTime":659.066,"body":"They know when they're"},{"startTime":657.246,"endTime":659.066,"body":"going to get their thing."},{"startTime":659.216,"endTime":663.366,"body":"The underlying point of contention"},{"startTime":659.216,"endTime":663.366,"body":"here was the product manager."},{"startTime":663.466,"endTime":667.656,"body":"And then everybody that the product"},{"startTime":663.466,"endTime":667.656,"body":"manager bubbled up to is not happy."},{"startTime":668.001,"endTime":669.191,"body":"With the cadence of delivery."},{"startTime":669.341,"endTime":671.981,"body":"So we go back to Brian's magic"},{"startTime":669.341,"endTime":671.981,"body":"metric that I just threw out."},{"startTime":672.201,"endTime":674.571,"body":"Hey, You're delivering on a regular"},{"startTime":672.201,"endTime":674.571,"body":"basis, if you're missing your sprint"},{"startTime":674.571,"endTime":679.381,"body":"goal every sprint, the developers will"},{"startTime":674.571,"endTime":679.381,"body":"quickly get painted into a corner."},{"startTime":679.531,"endTime":683.051,"body":"Where they're not delivering what they"},{"startTime":679.531,"endTime":683.051,"body":"say they're going to deliver right now."},{"startTime":683.101,"endTime":686.071,"body":"you got to deliver what you say you're"},{"startTime":683.101,"endTime":686.071,"body":"going to deliver like a scoping down"},{"startTime":686.071,"endTime":688.761,"body":"what you say you're going to deliver"},{"startTime":686.071,"endTime":688.761,"body":"to something you can actually deliver."},{"startTime":688.911,"endTime":692.121,"body":"Like, that's the number one thing you"},{"startTime":688.911,"endTime":692.121,"body":"really need to do if you wanna get"},{"startTime":692.121,"endTime":693.471,"body":"everybody in management off your back."},{"startTime":693.501,"endTime":694.131,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":694.341,"endTime":695.001,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":695.001,"endTime":699.861,"body":"So just because there is a sprint"},{"startTime":695.001,"endTime":699.861,"body":"goal or sprint commit for that matter."},{"startTime":699.911,"endTime":701.561,"body":"does not make it a guarantee."},{"startTime":701.661,"endTime":704.031,"body":"However, that said the flip side of it."},{"startTime":704.181,"endTime":707.841,"body":"if they don't deliver exactly what"},{"startTime":704.181,"endTime":707.841,"body":"they committed to or whatever the goal"},{"startTime":707.841,"endTime":709.731,"body":"was, they should not be doing for that."},{"startTime":709.881,"endTime":713.351,"body":"But having said that, if"},{"startTime":709.881,"endTime":713.351,"body":"there's a pattern of doing this"},{"startTime":713.361,"endTime":715.891,"body":"where they're not delivering,"},{"startTime":713.361,"endTime":715.891,"body":"there's something wrong, right?"},{"startTime":715.941,"endTime":718.771,"body":"There's a dysfunction somewhere that"},{"startTime":715.941,"endTime":718.771,"body":"needs to be we need to dig through"},{"startTime":718.771,"endTime":720.921,"body":"this and, and analyze that and fix it."},{"startTime":721.001,"endTime":723.811,"body":"Let me bring up the, the main"},{"startTime":721.001,"endTime":723.811,"body":"point of contention that's,"},{"startTime":723.981,"endTime":725.021,"body":"that started this, right?"},{"startTime":725.021,"endTime":725.511,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":725.731,"endTime":728.751,"body":"What I, what I said earlier in the"},{"startTime":725.731,"endTime":728.751,"body":"podcast, we've gone three sprints,"},{"startTime":728.751,"endTime":729.771,"body":"we haven't delivered anything."},{"startTime":729.771,"endTime":732.831,"body":"So I've asked the development"},{"startTime":729.771,"endTime":732.831,"body":"team to implement a new"},{"startTime":733.141,"endTime":734.671,"body":"charting library, for example."},{"startTime":734.691,"endTime":737.171,"body":"So we have a website, it"},{"startTime":734.691,"endTime":737.171,"body":"draws charts based on data."},{"startTime":737.371,"endTime":738.541,"body":"I want a new charting library."},{"startTime":738.541,"endTime":740.641,"body":"So I asked him, implement"},{"startTime":738.541,"endTime":740.641,"body":"a new charting library."},{"startTime":740.641,"endTime":742.821,"body":"These are the things that I want"},{"startTime":740.641,"endTime":742.821,"body":"from the charting library, right?"},{"startTime":743.111,"endTime":743.931,"body":"I've got this data."},{"startTime":744.091,"endTime":747.401,"body":"You're basically taking the same"},{"startTime":744.091,"endTime":747.401,"body":"data and you're just hitting it with"},{"startTime":747.401,"endTime":748.921,"body":"different, like a gallery of charts."},{"startTime":748.921,"endTime":750.931,"body":"Maybe each sprint, we could be"},{"startTime":748.921,"endTime":750.931,"body":"delivering a different chart."},{"startTime":750.961,"endTime":752.761,"body":"I've left all this to the"},{"startTime":750.961,"endTime":752.761,"body":"development team, but I've told"},{"startTime":752.761,"endTime":754.531,"body":"them Hey, I want to have a gallery."},{"startTime":754.571,"endTime":757.861,"body":"Like you go to the website, you"},{"startTime":754.571,"endTime":757.861,"body":"pull up the web page, you've"},{"startTime":757.871,"endTime":759.311,"body":"got the data that shows there."},{"startTime":759.481,"endTime":760.951,"body":"And then I want a gallery of charts."},{"startTime":761.091,"endTime":762.121,"body":"Maybe a line graph."},{"startTime":762.161,"endTime":767.071,"body":"Oh, now maybe you know, a histogram"},{"startTime":762.161,"endTime":767.071,"body":"and now, now maybe a scatterplot"},{"startTime":767.071,"endTime":768.451,"body":"or maybe whatever, like a line."},{"startTime":768.461,"endTime":771.871,"body":"I don't need the ability to like"},{"startTime":768.461,"endTime":771.871,"body":"manipulate the X and Y axis."},{"startTime":771.921,"endTime":774.871,"body":"You just pick what the X and Y"},{"startTime":771.921,"endTime":774.871,"body":"axis is based on the data and just."},{"startTime":775.021,"endTime":779.111,"body":"Give me Four or five different charts"},{"startTime":775.021,"endTime":779.111,"body":"that the user can you know a donut"},{"startTime":779.111,"endTime":781.231,"body":"chart line graph simple stuff, right?"},{"startTime":781.241,"endTime":784.041,"body":"Yeah, I was gonna say not exactly"},{"startTime":781.241,"endTime":784.041,"body":"rocket science the team finally"},{"startTime":784.041,"endTime":788.721,"body":"delivers My charting and Like"},{"startTime":784.041,"endTime":788.721,"body":"all the graphs look terrible."},{"startTime":788.911,"endTime":793.691,"body":"It's just very underwhelming like"},{"startTime":788.911,"endTime":793.691,"body":"if I were to take the CSV myself, go"},{"startTime":793.691,"endTime":797.331,"body":"on to any of these websites and play"},{"startTime":793.691,"endTime":797.331,"body":"around, like most of these websites with"},{"startTime":797.331,"endTime":799.951,"body":"charting libraries have like a demo area."},{"startTime":799.951,"endTime":802.671,"body":"You can play around with the charts,"},{"startTime":799.951,"endTime":802.671,"body":"upload your own data, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":802.821,"endTime":806.181,"body":"If I were to do that, I could"},{"startTime":802.821,"endTime":806.181,"body":"go and replicate this stuff like"},{"startTime":806.401,"endTime":810.091,"body":"today, like in a day, I just"},{"startTime":806.401,"endTime":810.091,"body":"dedicate today to exploring these."},{"startTime":810.241,"endTime":814.661,"body":"So after two sprints, the"},{"startTime":810.241,"endTime":814.661,"body":"team is delivering this stuff"},{"startTime":814.741,"endTime":816.161,"body":"that just doesn't look good."},{"startTime":816.396,"endTime":820.496,"body":"I as a product manager, I don't understand"},{"startTime":816.396,"endTime":820.496,"body":"how we got this far off track  I don't"},{"startTime":820.496,"endTime":823.866,"body":"understand for the time that was put"},{"startTime":820.496,"endTime":823.866,"body":"into this, I don't understand why I"},{"startTime":823.866,"endTime":828.466,"body":"don't have a half a dozen different"},{"startTime":823.866,"endTime":828.466,"body":"charting library examples live in"},{"startTime":828.466,"endTime":832.006,"body":"production or whatever, live in the beta"},{"startTime":828.466,"endTime":832.006,"body":"environment or whatever test environment"},{"startTime":832.166,"endTime":837.536,"body":"and yeah, it seems to me like a skill"},{"startTime":832.166,"endTime":837.536,"body":"level of the development team issue and"},{"startTime":837.536,"endTime":841.786,"body":"an issue with tech lead, not properly"},{"startTime":837.536,"endTime":841.786,"body":"supervising the developers to keep"},{"startTime":841.786,"endTime":844.976,"body":"them on track and giving them guidance"},{"startTime":841.786,"endTime":844.976,"body":"because clearly if I see it and it"},{"startTime":844.976,"endTime":849.236,"body":"clearly is like, it looks like you know,"},{"startTime":844.976,"endTime":849.236,"body":"it looks like a undergrad project, like"},{"startTime":849.386,"endTime":851.606,"body":"clearly the, the tech lead on the team."},{"startTime":851.756,"endTime":852.936,"body":"Must not have been engaged."},{"startTime":853.046,"endTime":855.636,"body":"I was like, there's no way you"},{"startTime":853.046,"endTime":855.636,"body":"could think that this is sufficient."},{"startTime":855.856,"endTime":857.736,"body":"Yeah, I think it points directly to that."},{"startTime":857.736,"endTime":862.376,"body":"I mean, the only other way is you look"},{"startTime":857.736,"endTime":862.376,"body":"at that and say, Architecturally is"},{"startTime":862.376,"endTime":866.676,"body":"what you're asking for is what the"},{"startTime":862.376,"endTime":866.676,"body":"team working on and delivering aligned"},{"startTime":866.676,"endTime":868.586,"body":"with their architectural runway."},{"startTime":868.736,"endTime":871.276,"body":"Which again, unless you have"},{"startTime":868.736,"endTime":871.276,"body":"architects, it's the tech lead."},{"startTime":871.426,"endTime":872.926,"body":"So, so roll up to the tech lead."},{"startTime":873.176,"endTime":874.266,"body":"What happens though?"},{"startTime":874.276,"endTime":877.606,"body":"What happens when they demo this"},{"startTime":874.276,"endTime":877.606,"body":"stuff and it doesn't look good,"},{"startTime":877.756,"endTime":881.136,"body":"a sprint goes by, another sprint"},{"startTime":877.756,"endTime":881.136,"body":"goes by like, what is the behavior?"},{"startTime":881.306,"endTime":882.686,"body":"Yeah, of the team, right?"},{"startTime":882.836,"endTime":887.316,"body":"Are they owning up to that and say, Oh,"},{"startTime":882.836,"endTime":887.316,"body":"damn, this doesn't look good, right?"},{"startTime":887.366,"endTime":888.366,"body":"Where do we go wrong?"},{"startTime":888.686,"endTime":890.526,"body":"So again, I go back to that whole thing."},{"startTime":890.526,"endTime":893.876,"body":"They retrospectively look back"},{"startTime":890.526,"endTime":893.876,"body":"and say, How did we end up here?"},{"startTime":894.026,"endTime":894.396,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":894.496,"endTime":897.716,"body":"Oftentimes, this gets weaponized and"},{"startTime":894.496,"endTime":897.716,"body":"people use that to play the blame game."},{"startTime":897.726,"endTime":901.256,"body":"But my intent would be to say, if we"},{"startTime":897.726,"endTime":901.256,"body":"missed it, we could miss it again."},{"startTime":901.286,"endTime":904.746,"body":"So it's really as a process to"},{"startTime":901.286,"endTime":904.746,"body":"figure out where the gap was,"},{"startTime":904.936,"endTime":907.446,"body":"redress that deficiency and move on."},{"startTime":907.456,"endTime":908.816,"body":"But we can't keep missing it."},{"startTime":908.966,"endTime":909.316,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":909.466,"endTime":912.296,"body":"So that, that's the other thing"},{"startTime":909.466,"endTime":912.296,"body":"is, Now that we've missed it"},{"startTime":912.306,"endTime":913.926,"body":"once, we look at it again."},{"startTime":913.936,"endTime":917.396,"body":"We've learned something as to"},{"startTime":913.936,"endTime":917.396,"body":"why, but don't keep the same"},{"startTime":917.396,"endTime":919.416,"body":"scope in play for the next sprint."},{"startTime":919.726,"endTime":923.486,"body":"If the reason was there was work"},{"startTime":919.726,"endTime":923.486,"body":"was too complex, too much work,"},{"startTime":923.526,"endTime":924.996,"body":"dependencies were found, et cetera."},{"startTime":925.006,"endTime":926.476,"body":"Feel free to change up the scope."},{"startTime":926.626,"endTime":929.966,"body":"So  from that specific"},{"startTime":926.626,"endTime":929.966,"body":"example, here was my learning."},{"startTime":930.116,"endTime":930.426,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":930.736,"endTime":934.926,"body":"As my career learning as a product"},{"startTime":930.736,"endTime":934.926,"body":"manager with this specific team."},{"startTime":935.076,"endTime":940.186,"body":"this team does not do well given the"},{"startTime":935.076,"endTime":940.186,"body":"whole world as scope, like go out into"},{"startTime":940.186,"endTime":944.656,"body":"the entire world, get all the charting"},{"startTime":940.186,"endTime":944.656,"body":"libraries possible, all the visualization"},{"startTime":944.656,"endTime":946.416,"body":"libraries possible, bring them back to me."},{"startTime":946.441,"endTime":948.581,"body":"Not the team did not handle that well."},{"startTime":950.441,"endTime":955.061,"body":"I'm going to go out and investigate"},{"startTime":950.441,"endTime":955.061,"body":"charting libraries and pick like four"},{"startTime":955.061,"endTime":957.001,"body":"or five of them that look good to me."},{"startTime":957.221,"endTime":959.651,"body":"Oh, but you don't, I"},{"startTime":957.221,"endTime":959.651,"body":"feel you don't need that."},{"startTime":959.931,"endTime":963.301,"body":"You could ask your technical rep on"},{"startTime":959.931,"endTime":963.301,"body":"the development team, your, your team"},{"startTime":963.301,"endTime":964.861,"body":"lead or your architect or whatever."},{"startTime":964.861,"endTime":968.631,"body":"You could ask them, Hey, can you"},{"startTime":964.861,"endTime":968.631,"body":"please go out and identify the top"},{"startTime":968.781,"endTime":972.511,"body":"industry standard, five charting"},{"startTime":968.781,"endTime":972.511,"body":"libraries, top three, right?"},{"startTime":972.661,"endTime":974.071,"body":"You could ask for help with this."},{"startTime":974.091,"endTime":974.921,"body":"You don't have to do it yourself."},{"startTime":974.921,"endTime":979.151,"body":"I do it myself because I know how to do it"},{"startTime":974.921,"endTime":979.151,"body":"in Python and it's pretty straightforward"},{"startTime":979.151,"endTime":980.131,"body":"and I know what I'm looking for."},{"startTime":980.281,"endTime":981.351,"body":"But you don't have to do it yourself."},{"startTime":981.381,"endTime":983.931,"body":"You can make a ticket, assign"},{"startTime":981.381,"endTime":983.931,"body":"it to your architect, have"},{"startTime":983.931,"endTime":984.781,"body":"them help you in your sprint."},{"startTime":984.931,"endTime":986.101,"body":"Put that to the side for a second."},{"startTime":986.251,"endTime":990.271,"body":"What I'm asking for is, I'm going"},{"startTime":986.251,"endTime":990.271,"body":"to create the boundaries by saying,"},{"startTime":990.351,"endTime":992.511,"body":"Okay, these three charting libraries."},{"startTime":992.661,"endTime":998.201,"body":"I want you to take data exported from our"},{"startTime":992.661,"endTime":998.201,"body":"real system and show me a donut chart,"},{"startTime":998.221,"endTime":1003.211,"body":"a line chart, a bar graph, whatever you"},{"startTime":998.221,"endTime":1003.211,"body":"mean that things I'm thinking of with our"},{"startTime":1003.211,"endTime":1005.551,"body":"example data downloaded here into a CSV."},{"startTime":1005.721,"endTime":1006.791,"body":"So it's the same data."},{"startTime":1006.941,"endTime":1011.891,"body":"Different libraries, but real live"},{"startTime":1006.941,"endTime":1011.891,"body":"quote, in production versions of it."},{"startTime":1012.111,"endTime":1013.331,"body":"And I want to see it mocked up."},{"startTime":1013.351,"endTime":1015.971,"body":"Maybe it never needs to"},{"startTime":1013.351,"endTime":1015.971,"body":"leave our dev environment."},{"startTime":1015.971,"endTime":1017.511,"body":"it could be local on the dev environment."},{"startTime":1017.551,"endTime":1020.301,"body":"Double points if it's in production,"},{"startTime":1017.551,"endTime":1020.301,"body":"but I don't care if it's in production."},{"startTime":1020.451,"endTime":1023.501,"body":"Because we I see them in a sprint demo"},{"startTime":1020.451,"endTime":1023.501,"body":"and I bring these stakeholders and they"},{"startTime":1023.501,"endTime":1025.411,"body":"say, these churning libraries all suck."},{"startTime":1025.611,"endTime":1026.351,"body":"They're all terrible."},{"startTime":1026.371,"endTime":1027.601,"body":"I hate them."},{"startTime":1027.601,"endTime":1027.801,"body":"None of them."},{"startTime":1027.811,"endTime":1030.581,"body":"I wouldn't want to stand in"},{"startTime":1027.811,"endTime":1030.581,"body":"front of the customers and show"},{"startTime":1030.601,"endTime":1032.281,"body":"charts written with any of these."},{"startTime":1032.281,"endTime":1033.391,"body":"Cause they're look, they look terrible."},{"startTime":1033.391,"endTime":1034.091,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":1034.211,"endTime":1037.331,"body":"Development team, roll all this"},{"startTime":1034.211,"endTime":1037.331,"body":"out and throw all the code away."},{"startTime":1037.481,"endTime":1038.661,"body":"Which brings me to it."},{"startTime":1038.711,"endTime":1041.961,"body":"there's two statements I just"},{"startTime":1038.711,"endTime":1041.961,"body":"threw out by saying that."},{"startTime":1042.111,"endTime":1046.321,"body":"both of which could be confrontational,"},{"startTime":1042.111,"endTime":1046.321,"body":"but number one is I'm going to give you"},{"startTime":1046.321,"endTime":1049.711,"body":"the very next thing because development"},{"startTime":1046.321,"endTime":1049.711,"body":"teams might hear that and say I don't need"},{"startTime":1049.711,"endTime":1054.181,"body":"you to give me the bounds that I'm playing"},{"startTime":1049.711,"endTime":1054.181,"body":"inside of, I'll go out on the internet"},{"startTime":1054.221,"endTime":1055.591,"body":"and I'll discover them for myself."},{"startTime":1055.741,"endTime":1057.101,"body":"Number one, that's valid."},{"startTime":1057.151,"endTime":1058.251,"body":"Let's put that aside for a second."},{"startTime":1058.541,"endTime":1059.851,"body":"You did a thing with code."},{"startTime":1060.001,"endTime":1061.291,"body":"Now I want you to throw it all away."},{"startTime":1061.491,"endTime":1063.321,"body":"those two things are very confrontational."},{"startTime":1063.531,"endTime":1066.961,"body":"I think as far as like saying to"},{"startTime":1063.531,"endTime":1066.961,"body":"the team, go out and look for these"},{"startTime":1066.961,"endTime":1069.981,"body":"two or three, why not just create a"},{"startTime":1066.961,"endTime":1069.981,"body":"little spike to go figure that out?"},{"startTime":1070.001,"endTime":1073.761,"body":"The team ultimately, so I want to go"},{"startTime":1070.001,"endTime":1073.761,"body":"back to the point that you made about"},{"startTime":1073.781,"endTime":1076.331,"body":"using your tech lead or a savvy person."},{"startTime":1076.481,"endTime":1077.661,"body":"Product person can do that."},{"startTime":1077.811,"endTime":1079.211,"body":"BAs can help there too."},{"startTime":1079.441,"endTime":1081.631,"body":"To do the groundwork, the research, etc."},{"startTime":1081.811,"endTime":1083.461,"body":"To figure out the tools, bring them in."},{"startTime":1083.611,"endTime":1085.091,"body":"That should be a spike."},{"startTime":1085.241,"endTime":1086.291,"body":"That kind of work, right?"},{"startTime":1086.491,"endTime":1088.231,"body":"And then they share it with everybody."},{"startTime":1088.381,"endTime":1089.811,"body":"Not least the product person, right?"},{"startTime":1089.961,"endTime":1092.711,"body":"And then you make a decision saying,"},{"startTime":1089.961,"endTime":1092.711,"body":"well, we'd like to go with this,"},{"startTime":1092.711,"endTime":1093.731,"body":"or we'd like to go with that."},{"startTime":1093.881,"endTime":1095.131,"body":"It's an informed decision."},{"startTime":1095.281,"endTime":1098.981,"body":"As opposed to the team picking"},{"startTime":1095.281,"endTime":1098.981,"body":"something and deciding autonomously"},{"startTime":1099.031,"endTime":1102.111,"body":"and then showing it to you because"},{"startTime":1099.031,"endTime":1102.111,"body":"you may have good reasons why"},{"startTime":1102.151,"endTime":1104.021,"body":"you want to pick a tool, right?"},{"startTime":1104.081,"endTime":1107.681,"body":"let's talk about spike for a second"},{"startTime":1104.081,"endTime":1107.681,"body":"So, Again from this conversation one"},{"startTime":1107.681,"endTime":1111.561,"body":"of my learnings that I took with me"},{"startTime":1107.681,"endTime":1111.561,"body":"through my career is I never, I told"},{"startTime":1111.561,"endTime":1113.281,"body":"this story on a separate podcast."},{"startTime":1113.361,"endTime":1116.721,"body":"I remember telling a story where the"},{"startTime":1113.361,"endTime":1116.721,"body":"development manager I was working with"},{"startTime":1116.871,"endTime":1119.881,"body":"said like, Hey, I said, Oh, I don't"},{"startTime":1116.871,"endTime":1119.881,"body":"want to spend like more than like two"},{"startTime":1119.881,"endTime":1121.761,"body":"hours struggling to solve a problem."},{"startTime":1121.761,"endTime":1125.761,"body":"And he was like, don't spend two hours,"},{"startTime":1121.761,"endTime":1125.761,"body":"spend like a maximum of 15 minutes."},{"startTime":1125.761,"endTime":1129.281,"body":"If you can't figure out the logic problem,"},{"startTime":1125.761,"endTime":1129.281,"body":"come get another developer, you know?"},{"startTime":1129.281,"endTime":1131.221,"body":"And at the time I was like,"},{"startTime":1129.281,"endTime":1131.221,"body":"Oh boy, that's, that's a"},{"startTime":1131.221,"endTime":1132.441,"body":"real short amount of time."},{"startTime":1132.441,"endTime":1136.441,"body":"years later, after the fact I"},{"startTime":1132.441,"endTime":1136.441,"body":"find myself more in line with"},{"startTime":1136.471,"endTime":1137.541,"body":"that advice of like, yeah."},{"startTime":1137.831,"endTime":1138.281,"body":"Spend."},{"startTime":1138.431,"endTime":1141.791,"body":"A couple of minutes trying to work through"},{"startTime":1138.431,"endTime":1141.791,"body":"the I mean, dedicated, not like checking"},{"startTime":1141.791,"endTime":1145.301,"body":"your slack and doing other things, I"},{"startTime":1141.791,"endTime":1145.301,"body":"mean, dedicated to actually solid hours."},{"startTime":1145.301,"endTime":1148.921,"body":"And if you can't solve the logic problem"},{"startTime":1145.301,"endTime":1148.921,"body":"by yourself, reach out to someone else and"},{"startTime":1148.921,"endTime":1150.931,"body":"bring them in sooner rather than later."},{"startTime":1151.081,"endTime":1154.821,"body":"I stand to have a team working agreement"},{"startTime":1151.081,"endTime":1154.821,"body":"like that, where if you're stuck on"},{"startTime":1154.821,"endTime":1158.241,"body":"a task for more than an hour, reach"},{"startTime":1154.821,"endTime":1158.241,"body":"out to somebody in Slack or Teams or"},{"startTime":1158.241,"endTime":1159.741,"body":"whatever it is that you're using, right?"},{"startTime":1159.891,"endTime":1161.391,"body":"And don't just sit there and spin."},{"startTime":1161.541,"endTime":1164.551,"body":"Least of all, don't wait till"},{"startTime":1161.541,"endTime":1164.551,"body":"the next morning and say, Oh, I'm"},{"startTime":1164.551,"endTime":1166.321,"body":"stuck on that task since yesterday."},{"startTime":1166.391,"endTime":1168.481,"body":"The reason I brought"},{"startTime":1166.391,"endTime":1168.481,"body":"that up was, Spike thing."},{"startTime":1168.481,"endTime":1170.591,"body":"It's like, oh, we're going to,"},{"startTime":1168.481,"endTime":1170.591,"body":"we're going to pick up a spike."},{"startTime":1170.591,"endTime":1173.651,"body":"This sprint that says, find"},{"startTime":1170.591,"endTime":1173.651,"body":"the best charting library."},{"startTime":1173.711,"endTime":1174.021,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1174.221,"endTime":1177.551,"body":"well, my engineers are going to go"},{"startTime":1174.221,"endTime":1177.551,"body":"out and they're going to identify six"},{"startTime":1177.641,"endTime":1183.041,"body":"maybe eight, a dozen charting libraries"},{"startTime":1177.641,"endTime":1183.041,"body":"and come back and give me an overview"},{"startTime":1183.041,"endTime":1186.351,"body":"of all of them what I really mean is"},{"startTime":1183.041,"endTime":1186.351,"body":"like, I want you to learn how to use"},{"startTime":1186.501,"endTime":1190.341,"body":"these charting libraries and then"},{"startTime":1186.501,"endTime":1190.341,"body":"suggest which one's the best for us."},{"startTime":1190.651,"endTime":1193.611,"body":"Maybe every day you're learning a"},{"startTime":1190.651,"endTime":1193.611,"body":"different charting library, but maybe,"},{"startTime":1193.741,"endTime":1196.431,"body":"here's what I'm trying to say, which"},{"startTime":1193.741,"endTime":1196.431,"body":"I, which this is not new either."},{"startTime":1196.431,"endTime":1197.691,"body":"I've said this on different podcasts."},{"startTime":1197.841,"endTime":1202.921,"body":"If I'm assigning a spike and the"},{"startTime":1197.841,"endTime":1202.921,"body":"spike is suggest explore our options."},{"startTime":1203.246,"endTime":1206.756,"body":"With regard to charting"},{"startTime":1203.246,"endTime":1206.756,"body":"libraries suggest the best one"},{"startTime":1207.006,"endTime":1208.556,"body":"for what we want to use it for."},{"startTime":1208.706,"endTime":1211.796,"body":"And then I will write in the ticket,"},{"startTime":1208.706,"endTime":1211.796,"body":"some of the things we want to do"},{"startTime":1211.796,"endTime":1214.666,"body":"with charting libraries, maybe give"},{"startTime":1211.796,"endTime":1214.666,"body":"some screenshots and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1214.816,"endTime":1218.856,"body":"And then your job as a developer"},{"startTime":1214.816,"endTime":1218.856,"body":"is to take a couple days."},{"startTime":1219.006,"endTime":1219.306,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1219.386,"endTime":1222.186,"body":"So this is, this is where we start"},{"startTime":1219.386,"endTime":1222.186,"body":"getting into the nitty gritty"},{"startTime":1222.396,"endTime":1223.346,"body":"of what I want to talk about."},{"startTime":1223.376,"endTime":1225.356,"body":"I've been on teams where this is 24 hours."},{"startTime":1225.506,"endTime":1229.056,"body":"I've been on teams where it's 48"},{"startTime":1225.506,"endTime":1229.056,"body":"hours, meaning one day or two days."},{"startTime":1229.206,"endTime":1233.106,"body":"I've rarely been on teams where it's"},{"startTime":1229.206,"endTime":1233.106,"body":"longer than that, but this team that"},{"startTime":1233.106,"endTime":1236.216,"body":"I'm talking about in this example,"},{"startTime":1233.106,"endTime":1236.216,"body":"their time box was a whole sprint."},{"startTime":1236.266,"endTime":1239.356,"body":"They would assign a developer"},{"startTime":1236.266,"endTime":1239.356,"body":"for the entirety of the sprint"},{"startTime":1239.506,"endTime":1241.236,"body":"to investigate the spike work."},{"startTime":1241.276,"endTime":1242.476,"body":"I've seen other teams do this too."},{"startTime":1242.476,"endTime":1243.826,"body":"So it wasn't unique to this team."},{"startTime":1243.886,"endTime":1244.856,"body":"And I think."},{"startTime":1245.006,"endTime":1249.446,"body":"That is too long to let the time"},{"startTime":1245.006,"endTime":1249.446,"body":"box be open for spike work to go"},{"startTime":1249.446,"endTime":1250.626,"body":"off and do open ended research."},{"startTime":1250.706,"endTime":1255.086,"body":"I feel every 24 hours that"},{"startTime":1250.706,"endTime":1255.086,"body":"your spike task is open."},{"startTime":1255.236,"endTime":1258.636,"body":"You should come back to the team and"},{"startTime":1255.236,"endTime":1258.636,"body":"review your findings with the team."},{"startTime":1258.986,"endTime":1261.786,"body":"Some people might think of that"},{"startTime":1258.986,"endTime":1261.786,"body":"as micromanagement and that's"},{"startTime":1261.786,"endTime":1262.596,"body":"why I want to bring it up."},{"startTime":1262.816,"endTime":1265.446,"body":"So first of all, let's just"},{"startTime":1262.816,"endTime":1265.446,"body":"get that out of the way, right?"},{"startTime":1265.596,"endTime":1267.886,"body":"The definition by definition is spike."},{"startTime":1268.036,"endTime":1270.976,"body":"means you're investigating something"},{"startTime":1268.036,"endTime":1270.976,"body":"you don't know enough about."},{"startTime":1271.296,"endTime":1272.926,"body":"That is not micromanagement."},{"startTime":1273.216,"endTime":1276.596,"body":"That also cannot take a sprint"},{"startTime":1273.216,"endTime":1276.596,"body":"because it's supposed to be a"},{"startTime":1276.596,"endTime":1281.446,"body":"spike, not just a regular story,"},{"startTime":1276.596,"endTime":1281.446,"body":"PBI, whatever, in the sprint."},{"startTime":1281.596,"endTime":1283.226,"body":"A lot of people have that."},{"startTime":1283.416,"endTime":1286.376,"body":"The phenomenon you described, a spike"},{"startTime":1283.416,"endTime":1286.376,"body":"is open at the end of the spring."},{"startTime":1286.376,"endTime":1287.956,"body":"They go, we're still"},{"startTime":1286.376,"endTime":1287.956,"body":"waiting to learn more."},{"startTime":1287.956,"endTime":1290.176,"body":"So we'll move this spike"},{"startTime":1287.956,"endTime":1290.176,"body":"to the next sprint."},{"startTime":1290.326,"endTime":1291.496,"body":"They've already missed it by then."},{"startTime":1291.526,"endTime":1291.846,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1291.996,"endTime":1293.826,"body":"So look at the story, right?"},{"startTime":1293.856,"endTime":1294.426,"body":"And say."},{"startTime":1294.576,"endTime":1296.976,"body":"Let's analyze what's in the spike story."},{"startTime":1296.996,"endTime":1300.726,"body":"If you're looking at investigating"},{"startTime":1296.996,"endTime":1300.726,"body":"X, Y, and Z, or learn about X, Y,"},{"startTime":1300.726,"endTime":1302.576,"body":"and Z, maybe open three spikes."},{"startTime":1302.596,"endTime":1305.516,"body":"At least that way, you can"},{"startTime":1302.596,"endTime":1305.516,"body":"learn about X or X and Y right?"},{"startTime":1305.726,"endTime":1309.776,"body":"Vertically slice the story smaller,"},{"startTime":1305.726,"endTime":1309.776,"body":"especially if it's a spike story, such"},{"startTime":1309.776,"endTime":1311.726,"body":"that it can be finished in a day or two."},{"startTime":1311.876,"endTime":1313.436,"body":"That's the idea behind a spike."},{"startTime":1313.476,"endTime":1317.286,"body":"Well, the spike here is like, I don't know"},{"startTime":1313.476,"endTime":1317.286,"body":"how long it's going to take to investigate"},{"startTime":1317.286,"endTime":1318.626,"body":"this charting library or whatever."},{"startTime":1318.936,"endTime":1324.236,"body":"But if I clear all the rest of the"},{"startTime":1318.936,"endTime":1324.236,"body":"tasks that are on your to do list off"},{"startTime":1324.386,"endTime":1328.686,"body":"for today, I say dedicate yourself"},{"startTime":1324.386,"endTime":1328.686,"body":"to learning everything you can about"},{"startTime":1329.016,"endTime":1331.636,"body":"this specific charting library today."},{"startTime":1331.786,"endTime":1333.856,"body":"In that scenario, you should"},{"startTime":1331.786,"endTime":1333.856,"body":"be able to get it done."},{"startTime":1333.906,"endTime":1338.056,"body":"because of my background on"},{"startTime":1333.906,"endTime":1338.056,"body":"development teams, if you're telling"},{"startTime":1338.056,"endTime":1341.466,"body":"me specifically, Brian, there's"},{"startTime":1338.056,"endTime":1341.466,"body":"nothing more valuable you can do today."},{"startTime":1341.616,"endTime":1344.946,"body":"I'm going to shelter you from"},{"startTime":1341.616,"endTime":1344.946,"body":"all the production blowups and"},{"startTime":1344.946,"endTime":1349.606,"body":"support tickets and other requests"},{"startTime":1344.946,"endTime":1349.606,"body":"turn your slack off for the day."},{"startTime":1349.786,"endTime":1350.636,"body":"I'll deflect people."},{"startTime":1350.636,"endTime":1351.866,"body":"If you're giving me that."},{"startTime":1351.911,"endTime":1357.061,"body":"You have that leeway and you're telling"},{"startTime":1351.911,"endTime":1357.061,"body":"me I need this decision from you."},{"startTime":1357.091,"endTime":1358.111,"body":"That's your task."},{"startTime":1358.261,"endTime":1359.281,"body":"Close everything else."},{"startTime":1359.421,"endTime":1359.661,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1360.011,"endTime":1362.091,"body":"And get this thing done"},{"startTime":1360.011,"endTime":1362.091,"body":"okay, that's my thing."},{"startTime":1362.091,"endTime":1366.681,"body":"Given the three charting libraries that"},{"startTime":1362.091,"endTime":1366.681,"body":"we've identified pre identified, right?"},{"startTime":1366.681,"endTime":1367.561,"body":"Because that's where I started."},{"startTime":1367.561,"endTime":1369.911,"body":"It's just saying like, I'm"},{"startTime":1367.561,"endTime":1369.911,"body":"going to draw the guardrail."},{"startTime":1369.921,"endTime":1373.091,"body":"Yeah, I'm going to draw the box"},{"startTime":1369.921,"endTime":1373.091,"body":"around this and say, here's three."},{"startTime":1373.241,"endTime":1377.391,"body":"I've discussed with the tech lead or we"},{"startTime":1373.241,"endTime":1377.391,"body":"discussed refinement and we agree on."},{"startTime":1377.661,"endTime":1377.921,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1378.071,"endTime":1379.921,"body":"Those are the ones you start with okay."},{"startTime":1379.921,"endTime":1383.181,"body":"Well, maybe you start with one of those"},{"startTime":1379.921,"endTime":1383.181,"body":"and you read through documentation."},{"startTime":1383.181,"endTime":1386.651,"body":"It leads you to something else,"},{"startTime":1383.181,"endTime":1386.651,"body":"but the bounds, the scope of"},{"startTime":1386.661,"endTime":1390.021,"body":"the original item needs to be,"},{"startTime":1386.661,"endTime":1390.021,"body":"this is what I was asked to do."},{"startTime":1390.171,"endTime":1390.981,"body":"I focused on it."},{"startTime":1391.051,"endTime":1391.621,"body":"I did it."},{"startTime":1391.771,"endTime":1393.321,"body":"And here's my recommendation."},{"startTime":1393.501,"endTime":1394.991,"body":"Upload production data to it."},{"startTime":1395.161,"endTime":1398.771,"body":"I'll do all this myself in order to"},{"startTime":1395.161,"endTime":1398.771,"body":"try to help the development team."},{"startTime":1398.921,"endTime":1403.221,"body":"I can manipulate the data myself where"},{"startTime":1398.921,"endTime":1403.221,"body":"other product managers might need a"},{"startTime":1403.221,"endTime":1406.981,"body":"spike and then their development team"},{"startTime":1403.221,"endTime":1406.981,"body":"has to go do this R and D, this kind"},{"startTime":1406.981,"endTime":1408.941,"body":"of research, I can shortcut that."},{"startTime":1408.941,"endTime":1411.521,"body":"while two sprints ahead of the"},{"startTime":1408.941,"endTime":1411.521,"body":"development team, I can be doing"},{"startTime":1411.521,"endTime":1412.781,"body":"this R and D type of stuff."},{"startTime":1412.801,"endTime":1416.411,"body":"when refinement rolls around,"},{"startTime":1412.801,"endTime":1416.411,"body":"I will demo what I've mocked"},{"startTime":1416.411,"endTime":1418.041,"body":"up for the development team."},{"startTime":1418.386,"endTime":1421.566,"body":"With stakeholders in the room and"},{"startTime":1418.386,"endTime":1421.566,"body":"then we'll talk about what I did."},{"startTime":1421.786,"endTime":1423.396,"body":"This is how I had to manipulate stuff."},{"startTime":1423.406,"endTime":1424.686,"body":"What do you think stakeholders?"},{"startTime":1424.716,"endTime":1425.696,"body":"Oh, this is what we'd like."},{"startTime":1425.696,"endTime":1426.486,"body":"This is what we don't like."},{"startTime":1426.626,"endTime":1427.786,"body":"What do you think development team?"},{"startTime":1427.786,"endTime":1429.396,"body":"this is how hard we think"},{"startTime":1427.786,"endTime":1429.396,"body":"it'll be maintained."},{"startTime":1429.576,"endTime":1431.746,"body":"This is how hard we think"},{"startTime":1429.576,"endTime":1431.746,"body":"it'll be to scale the rollout."},{"startTime":1431.876,"endTime":1433.946,"body":"you didn't take into"},{"startTime":1431.876,"endTime":1433.946,"body":"account that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1434.026,"endTime":1437.176,"body":"And we'll have a quick discussion"},{"startTime":1434.026,"endTime":1437.176,"body":"and in an hour, hour and a half,"},{"startTime":1437.326,"endTime":1439.976,"body":"we'll have made our decision and"},{"startTime":1437.326,"endTime":1439.976,"body":"we'll be moving along, but I will"},{"startTime":1439.976,"endTime":1441.456,"body":"be working well ahead of the team."},{"startTime":1441.606,"endTime":1447.276,"body":"But again, not everyone has the bandwidth"},{"startTime":1441.606,"endTime":1447.276,"body":"to do that nor the skill so like I don't"},{"startTime":1447.276,"endTime":1451.146,"body":"even render that as advice to people"},{"startTime":1447.276,"endTime":1451.146,"body":"When I hear them have these problems."},{"startTime":1451.146,"endTime":1455.236,"body":"Yeah, because I don't it sounds like"},{"startTime":1451.146,"endTime":1455.236,"body":"terrible advice like oh just be more"},{"startTime":1455.236,"endTime":1459.236,"body":"technical or oh just get more involved"},{"startTime":1455.236,"endTime":1459.236,"body":"in the work like Just work 60 hours."},{"startTime":1459.236,"endTime":1460.786,"body":"Like it's it doesn't it's not good."},{"startTime":1460.786,"endTime":1461.616,"body":"It's not good advice."},{"startTime":1461.726,"endTime":1464.266,"body":"Yeah, that's what i'm saying"},{"startTime":1461.726,"endTime":1464.266,"body":"Yeah, no, I I concur with that."},{"startTime":1464.266,"endTime":1468.126,"body":"It is not good advice to do it that"},{"startTime":1464.266,"endTime":1468.126,"body":"way But but here's the thing, right?"},{"startTime":1468.166,"endTime":1471.396,"body":"If you have a cross functional"},{"startTime":1468.166,"endTime":1471.396,"body":"team Shouldn't your team have the"},{"startTime":1471.396,"endTime":1473.066,"body":"skill sense to do these spikes?"},{"startTime":1473.166,"endTime":1477.586,"body":"I have a question for that though, what,"},{"startTime":1473.166,"endTime":1477.586,"body":"what if your team says well, why don't you"},{"startTime":1477.586,"endTime":1479.406,"body":"just tell us what charting library to use?"},{"startTime":1479.606,"endTime":1484.336,"body":"If your team is front end engineers and"},{"startTime":1479.606,"endTime":1484.336,"body":"backend engineers and data scientists"},{"startTime":1484.486,"endTime":1488.546,"body":"and DBAs, even like if your team has,"},{"startTime":1484.486,"endTime":1488.546,"body":"they're a cross functional team, but"},{"startTime":1488.546,"endTime":1489.756,"body":"they're not a cross functional team."},{"startTime":1489.756,"endTime":1490.376,"body":"Meaning like."},{"startTime":1490.526,"endTime":1491.776,"body":"Full stack developers."},{"startTime":1491.996,"endTime":1494.886,"body":"They're a cross functional"},{"startTime":1491.996,"endTime":1494.886,"body":"team, meaning you have every."},{"startTime":1495.186,"endTime":1497.946,"body":"Skill on the team to get"},{"startTime":1495.186,"endTime":1497.946,"body":"the job done end to end."},{"startTime":1498.106,"endTime":1501.446,"body":"But everybody on the team is"},{"startTime":1498.106,"endTime":1501.446,"body":"looking only to do their like,"},{"startTime":1501.446,"endTime":1502.696,"body":"well, that's not our front end work."},{"startTime":1502.696,"endTime":1504.48,"body":"So I'm not going to pick that up."},{"startTime":1504.48,"endTime":1504.905,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1504.906,"endTime":1508.226,"body":"Oh, you have to write me a backend"},{"startTime":1504.906,"endTime":1508.226,"body":"tag to do the, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1508.226,"endTime":1511.206,"body":"Like that just tells you that you"},{"startTime":1508.226,"endTime":1511.206,"body":"don't have this team spirit where"},{"startTime":1511.556,"endTime":1515.386,"body":"you can go to the team and say, I"},{"startTime":1511.556,"endTime":1515.386,"body":"can't tell you what library to use."},{"startTime":1515.406,"endTime":1519.136,"body":"We need to figure out which one,"},{"startTime":1515.406,"endTime":1519.136,"body":"which one's the best for us."},{"startTime":1519.196,"endTime":1519.736,"body":"Given."},{"startTime":1519.886,"endTime":1521.486,"body":"These constraints, right?"},{"startTime":1521.536,"endTime":1523.116,"body":"And that's my marching order."},{"startTime":1523.346,"endTime":1525.176,"body":"Take these constraints"},{"startTime":1523.346,"endTime":1525.176,"body":"and go figure it out."},{"startTime":1525.446,"endTime":1527.686,"body":"You don't have to decide"},{"startTime":1525.446,"endTime":1527.686,"body":"if that's your concern."},{"startTime":1527.836,"endTime":1529.026,"body":"Just go figure it out."},{"startTime":1529.176,"endTime":1530.456,"body":"And give us the salient points."},{"startTime":1530.476,"endTime":1531.236,"body":"Let's talk about it."},{"startTime":1531.336,"endTime":1533.026,"body":"When you know enough, let's just meet."},{"startTime":1533.116,"endTime":1534.006,"body":"Spontaneously."},{"startTime":1534.156,"endTime":1538.556,"body":"So that again talks to, I think, the"},{"startTime":1534.156,"endTime":1538.556,"body":"level of, I guess, maturity of the team."},{"startTime":1538.566,"endTime":1542.796,"body":"But also, So process wise, right,"},{"startTime":1538.566,"endTime":1542.796,"body":"understanding that the team"},{"startTime":1542.796,"endTime":1545.686,"body":"isn't just there to take orders"},{"startTime":1542.796,"endTime":1545.686,"body":"and say, I'll just build it."},{"startTime":1545.696,"endTime":1548.346,"body":"You tell me what to build the"},{"startTime":1545.696,"endTime":1548.346,"body":"part and parcel of making the"},{"startTime":1548.346,"endTime":1550.026,"body":"decision of what to build."},{"startTime":1550.086,"endTime":1553.316,"body":"You've highlighted another"},{"startTime":1550.086,"endTime":1553.316,"body":"issue with this team."},{"startTime":1553.466,"endTime":1557.586,"body":"So I've come to this team and I"},{"startTime":1553.466,"endTime":1557.586,"body":"said, Hey, I like you already heard"},{"startTime":1557.596,"endTime":1560.786,"body":"in my examples, like I'm going and"},{"startTime":1557.596,"endTime":1560.786,"body":"finding the charting libraries."},{"startTime":1560.936,"endTime":1563.876,"body":"So I can draw guardrails so the"},{"startTime":1560.936,"endTime":1563.876,"body":"team can kind of stay on track."},{"startTime":1564.026,"endTime":1567.316,"body":"I don't want that to be the way I'd"},{"startTime":1564.026,"endTime":1567.316,"body":"interface with this team forever."},{"startTime":1567.336,"endTime":1571.626,"body":"I would prefer to say, Hey team,"},{"startTime":1567.336,"endTime":1571.626,"body":"I need a new charting interface."},{"startTime":1571.776,"endTime":1572.696,"body":"Why don't you come back?"},{"startTime":1572.726,"endTime":1575.726,"body":"I'm going to give you three"},{"startTime":1572.726,"endTime":1575.726,"body":"days, two days, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1575.906,"endTime":1580.066,"body":"I'm going to write a story with a time"},{"startTime":1575.906,"endTime":1580.066,"body":"box and go out on the market, investigate."},{"startTime":1580.216,"endTime":1583.946,"body":"All the libraries and all the tools"},{"startTime":1580.216,"endTime":1583.946,"body":"that are available to us because build"},{"startTime":1583.966,"endTime":1587.236,"body":"and buy are also on the table so go"},{"startTime":1583.966,"endTime":1587.236,"body":"out on the market find out what's"},{"startTime":1587.236,"endTime":1591.636,"body":"available to us and then bring me"},{"startTime":1587.236,"endTime":1591.636,"body":"back the options we'll review that in"},{"startTime":1591.706,"endTime":1596.066,"body":"two three days and based on what we"},{"startTime":1591.706,"endTime":1596.066,"body":"review We'll revise it another ticket."},{"startTime":1596.076,"endTime":1598.786,"body":"We'll change the acceptance criteria"},{"startTime":1596.076,"endTime":1598.786,"body":"and then we'll figure out how to do"},{"startTime":1598.796,"endTime":1600.726,"body":"a demo of that To our stakeholders."},{"startTime":1600.876,"endTime":1605.136,"body":"So maybe the first round of the"},{"startTime":1600.876,"endTime":1605.136,"body":"investigation, I am the stakeholder and"},{"startTime":1605.136,"endTime":1608.266,"body":"maybe the second round of actually like"},{"startTime":1605.136,"endTime":1608.266,"body":"integrating with whatever we choose."},{"startTime":1608.311,"endTime":1612.611,"body":"I will now bring the business in"},{"startTime":1608.311,"endTime":1612.611,"body":"to inspect the potential solutions."},{"startTime":1612.611,"endTime":1616.631,"body":"And then based on that discussion,"},{"startTime":1612.611,"endTime":1616.631,"body":"we'll commit money and time to actually"},{"startTime":1616.631,"endTime":1617.721,"body":"implement something in the product."},{"startTime":1617.871,"endTime":1621.881,"body":"The issue here is that team will push"},{"startTime":1617.871,"endTime":1621.881,"body":"back on me and say, well, Brian, that's"},{"startTime":1621.881,"endTime":1625.991,"body":"not our responsibility to go out on"},{"startTime":1621.881,"endTime":1625.991,"body":"the market and read the market research"},{"startTime":1626.141,"endTime":1628.071,"body":"of what's possible and out there."},{"startTime":1628.291,"endTime":1631.251,"body":"Like that's, that's something that"},{"startTime":1628.291,"endTime":1631.251,"body":"needs to be done and decided and"},{"startTime":1631.251,"endTime":1634.241,"body":"brought to the tech team, not something"},{"startTime":1631.251,"endTime":1634.241,"body":"that the tech team is going to do"},{"startTime":1634.401,"endTime":1638.671,"body":"when the developers aren't operating"},{"startTime":1634.401,"endTime":1638.671,"body":"directly in their skill, like the silo"},{"startTime":1638.671,"endTime":1642.501,"body":"of exactly what their skill is, you're"},{"startTime":1638.671,"endTime":1642.501,"body":"asking them to say like, go do research"},{"startTime":1642.501,"endTime":1646.481,"body":"on the market, or go figure out what"},{"startTime":1642.501,"endTime":1646.481,"body":"trend is hot on the market or whatever."},{"startTime":1646.661,"endTime":1649.401,"body":"Well, I don't that's not"},{"startTime":1646.661,"endTime":1649.401,"body":"that's not my direct role."},{"startTime":1649.651,"endTime":1650.811,"body":"Yeah, I don't care, we're a team."},{"startTime":1650.971,"endTime":1652.561,"body":"I'll give you  example before you respond."},{"startTime":1652.571,"endTime":1656.071,"body":"If you go back to the scrum guide"},{"startTime":1652.571,"endTime":1656.071,"body":"the scrum masters responsibilities"},{"startTime":1656.081,"endTime":1659.731,"body":"to help me, the product owner"},{"startTime":1656.081,"endTime":1659.731,"body":"coordinate folks for the demos."},{"startTime":1659.881,"endTime":1662.191,"body":"You're supposed to help"},{"startTime":1659.881,"endTime":1662.191,"body":"me manage the backlog."},{"startTime":1662.531,"endTime":1666.041,"body":"And help me coordinate the demos, there"},{"startTime":1662.531,"endTime":1666.041,"body":"are so many stakeholders I'm trying"},{"startTime":1666.041,"endTime":1669.911,"body":"to communicate with and line up for"},{"startTime":1666.041,"endTime":1669.911,"body":"the team to make our demos successful."},{"startTime":1670.061,"endTime":1670.841,"body":"I need help with this."},{"startTime":1671.171,"endTime":1672.101,"body":"I can't do it all myself."},{"startTime":1672.251,"endTime":1675.661,"body":"So I need to nail stakeholder"},{"startTime":1672.251,"endTime":1675.661,"body":"management, and I need people on the"},{"startTime":1675.661,"endTime":1677.331,"body":"development team to help me do that."},{"startTime":1677.481,"endTime":1680.026,"body":"The development team is actively"},{"startTime":1677.481,"endTime":1680.026,"body":"saying No, no, no, that's not code."},{"startTime":1680.026,"endTime":1682.826,"body":"We don't want to do Just like the"},{"startTime":1680.026,"endTime":1682.826,"body":"investigation of new technologies this"},{"startTime":1682.856,"endTime":1685.576,"body":"could be something that the development"},{"startTime":1682.856,"endTime":1685.576,"body":"team, It's not a great example, but"},{"startTime":1685.616,"endTime":1690.216,"body":"it is an example of, just like saying,"},{"startTime":1685.616,"endTime":1690.216,"body":"Well, you bring me the technologies and"},{"startTime":1690.216,"endTime":1691.626,"body":"I'll tell you how to implement them."},{"startTime":1691.796,"endTime":1694.636,"body":"Well, you tell me who's going"},{"startTime":1691.796,"endTime":1694.636,"body":"to be in my sprint review,"},{"startTime":1694.686,"endTime":1696.236,"body":"and then I'll build the demo."},{"startTime":1696.236,"endTime":1697.006,"body":"No, no, no."},{"startTime":1697.026,"endTime":1699.726,"body":"I need you to actively contribute to this."},{"startTime":1699.746,"endTime":1703.556,"body":"Like how can I better work with the"},{"startTime":1699.746,"endTime":1703.556,"body":"development team to help them understand"},{"startTime":1703.556,"endTime":1708.166,"body":"like, Hey, we're all together running a"},{"startTime":1703.556,"endTime":1708.166,"body":"good business and being development team."},{"startTime":1708.166,"endTime":1710.626,"body":"The first thing we're doing is"},{"startTime":1708.166,"endTime":1710.626,"body":"running a business together."},{"startTime":1710.826,"endTime":1714.116,"body":"So like, there's no, not my job"},{"startTime":1710.826,"endTime":1714.116,"body":"kind of conversation happening."},{"startTime":1714.181,"endTime":1718.111,"body":"Yeah, I completely agree with that."},{"startTime":1718.111,"endTime":1721.581,"body":"I think it talks to the culture of the"},{"startTime":1718.111,"endTime":1721.581,"body":"team, actually, at that point, right?"},{"startTime":1721.921,"endTime":1724.881,"body":"you do everything to satisfy the customer."},{"startTime":1724.881,"endTime":1727.751,"body":"The team's looking at everything in the"},{"startTime":1724.881,"endTime":1727.751,"body":"backlog and saying, What do we need to do?"},{"startTime":1727.761,"endTime":1731.921,"body":"We don't know which library to use, for"},{"startTime":1727.761,"endTime":1731.921,"body":"example, which charting tool to use."},{"startTime":1732.181,"endTime":1734.771,"body":"So, there's a spike story, right?"},{"startTime":1734.991,"endTime":1737.121,"body":"And people can swarm on that."},{"startTime":1737.251,"endTime":1739.851,"body":"If there's three, four,"},{"startTime":1737.251,"endTime":1739.851,"body":"five options, guess what?"},{"startTime":1740.001,"endTime":1742.921,"body":"You know, swarm on it"},{"startTime":1740.001,"endTime":1742.921,"body":"and tackle that as one."},{"startTime":1742.981,"endTime":1744.921,"body":"So, yeah, spikes,"},{"startTime":1742.981,"endTime":1744.921,"body":"swarming on a spike story."},{"startTime":1744.931,"endTime":1747.891,"body":"Swarming, yeah, swarming on a"},{"startTime":1744.931,"endTime":1747.891,"body":"spike story, if, if, and that's"},{"startTime":1747.891,"endTime":1749.231,"body":"an important story for the sprint."},{"startTime":1749.241,"endTime":1751.381,"body":"I wish there was a swarm on a spike story."},{"startTime":1751.381,"endTime":1752.101,"body":"Yeah, I wish."},{"startTime":1752.221,"endTime":1752.891,"body":"That would be great."},{"startTime":1753.041,"endTime":1756.411,"body":"So who's I mean, that's the direction"},{"startTime":1753.041,"endTime":1756.411,"body":"that they should be given, right?"},{"startTime":1756.461,"endTime":1759.131,"body":"And then they need to"},{"startTime":1756.461,"endTime":1759.131,"body":"work with the tech lead."},{"startTime":1759.421,"endTime":1761.321,"body":"Or the engineering manager, basically."},{"startTime":1761.511,"endTime":1768.271,"body":"Yeah, that's like, my feeling is, I want"},{"startTime":1761.511,"endTime":1768.271,"body":"to paint the sprint goal in the manner"},{"startTime":1768.281,"endTime":1771.691,"body":"where everyone understands that it is"},{"startTime":1768.281,"endTime":1771.691,"body":"the highest priority no matter what."},{"startTime":1771.841,"endTime":1775.321,"body":"So I'm willing to abandon all of the"},{"startTime":1771.841,"endTime":1775.321,"body":"stories that are in the sprint that are"},{"startTime":1775.321,"endTime":1777.211,"body":"not directly related to the sprint goal."},{"startTime":1777.361,"endTime":1781.831,"body":"And it's okay if like everybody"},{"startTime":1777.361,"endTime":1781.831,"body":"on the team just dogpiles on the"},{"startTime":1781.831,"endTime":1785.001,"body":"sprint goal and nothing else gets"},{"startTime":1781.831,"endTime":1785.001,"body":"done As long as the sprint goal"},{"startTime":1785.001,"endTime":1786.541,"body":"gets done, but it's very difficult."},{"startTime":1786.741,"endTime":1790.701,"body":"To communicate that to engineering"},{"startTime":1786.741,"endTime":1790.701,"body":"team members and managers who've"},{"startTime":1790.711,"endTime":1796.38,"body":"only ever been part of organizations"},{"startTime":1790.711,"endTime":1796.38,"body":"where  Everybody gets a sign Work item."},{"startTime":1796.4,"endTime":1798.43,"body":"the team doesn't get assigned work items."},{"startTime":1798.5,"endTime":1800.32,"body":"People get assigned work items."},{"startTime":1800.47,"endTime":1803.4,"body":"it's difficult when people come"},{"startTime":1800.47,"endTime":1803.4,"body":"from those cultures because"},{"startTime":1803.4,"endTime":1804.49,"body":"they bring that with them."},{"startTime":1804.64,"endTime":1808.19,"body":"And then I have to tell them"},{"startTime":1804.64,"endTime":1808.19,"body":"I don't value, utilization."},{"startTime":1808.34,"endTime":1809.51,"body":"I don't value it at all."},{"startTime":1809.75,"endTime":1809.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1809.96,"endTime":1811.79,"body":"In fact, I like, it's the opposite."},{"startTime":1811.79,"endTime":1812.66,"body":"I, devalue it."},{"startTime":1812.66,"endTime":1814.37,"body":"I think utilization is ridiculous."},{"startTime":1814.59,"endTime":1815.22,"body":"And it's stupid."},{"startTime":1815.55,"endTime":1818.91,"body":"And like a holdover from"},{"startTime":1815.55,"endTime":1818.91,"body":"the taylorism error."},{"startTime":1818.96,"endTime":1821.81,"body":"And it's completely"},{"startTime":1818.96,"endTime":1821.81,"body":"ridiculous for what we do."},{"startTime":1821.97,"endTime":1824.88,"body":"I would rather everyone"},{"startTime":1821.97,"endTime":1824.88,"body":"upskill on the team."},{"startTime":1825.03,"endTime":1828.52,"body":"And progress our velocity"},{"startTime":1825.03,"endTime":1828.52,"body":"together more slowly."},{"startTime":1828.66,"endTime":1831.64,"body":"If everyone's on board with the same"},{"startTime":1828.66,"endTime":1831.64,"body":"skills, that way in the future, it"},{"startTime":1831.64,"endTime":1834.48,"body":"doesn't matter who on the team picks"},{"startTime":1831.64,"endTime":1834.48,"body":"up a work item or picks up the phone."},{"startTime":1834.48,"endTime":1836.79,"body":"When something happens, it"},{"startTime":1834.48,"endTime":1836.79,"body":"doesn't matter who does it."},{"startTime":1837.07,"endTime":1838.8,"body":"They can resolve the problem right there."},{"startTime":1838.95,"endTime":1841.8,"body":"It's becomes more sustainable"},{"startTime":1838.95,"endTime":1841.8,"body":"that way because they own it."},{"startTime":1841.83,"endTime":1843.08,"body":"And I'm willing to pay for that."},{"startTime":1843.13,"endTime":1847.57,"body":"I, as a rep of the business, I'm"},{"startTime":1843.13,"endTime":1847.57,"body":"willing to pay for that in terms of"},{"startTime":1847.58,"endTime":1849.84,"body":"velocity salary, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1849.84,"endTime":1850.2,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1850.21,"endTime":1854.36,"body":"So engineering managers need to"},{"startTime":1850.21,"endTime":1854.36,"body":"understand this idea as well, right?"},{"startTime":1854.71,"endTime":1858.71,"body":"And if they don't they need help"},{"startTime":1854.71,"endTime":1858.71,"body":"work with your coaches or bring an"},{"startTime":1858.71,"endTime":1860.78,"body":"external coach for a bit to help."},{"startTime":1860.8,"endTime":1863.0,"body":"I think it's difficult for an"},{"startTime":1860.8,"endTime":1863.0,"body":"engineering manager because."},{"startTime":1863.016,"endTime":1869.003,"body":"the question is, like you, you expect that"},{"startTime":1863.016,"endTime":1869.003,"body":"the team is moving through the forming,"},{"startTime":1869.003,"endTime":1873.403,"body":"storming, norming stages just by being"},{"startTime":1869.003,"endTime":1873.403,"body":"together for a certain amount of time."},{"startTime":1873.483,"endTime":1873.763,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1873.983,"endTime":1874.233,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1874.253,"endTime":1878.093,"body":"And that's where it's like, somebody"},{"startTime":1874.253,"endTime":1878.093,"body":"recommended reading the book accelerate"},{"startTime":1878.143,"endTime":1881.313,"body":"because of this like, oh, well,"},{"startTime":1878.143,"endTime":1881.313,"body":"we're moving through these phases"},{"startTime":1881.463,"endTime":1884.683,"body":"and you'll understand better about"},{"startTime":1881.463,"endTime":1884.683,"body":"how to interface with engineering"},{"startTime":1884.683,"endTime":1886.663,"body":"and engineering metrics and whatnot."},{"startTime":1886.938,"endTime":1891.058,"body":"So what I did was I went through and I"},{"startTime":1886.938,"endTime":1891.058,"body":"read the book, Accelerate in the last"},{"startTime":1891.058,"endTime":1896.178,"body":"24 hours, And I like, this is not meant"},{"startTime":1891.058,"endTime":1896.178,"body":"to be a podcast on the book itself."},{"startTime":1896.178,"endTime":1900.558,"body":"I think the situation where you're"},{"startTime":1896.178,"endTime":1900.558,"body":"not seeing eye to eye with engineering"},{"startTime":1900.558,"endTime":1901.868,"body":"leadership, is much more important."},{"startTime":1902.018,"endTime":1905.618,"body":"It's to talk about that specific situation"},{"startTime":1902.018,"endTime":1905.618,"body":"than it is to talk about this book."},{"startTime":1905.688,"endTime":1906.818,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1906.828,"endTime":1909.668,"body":"But there are some concepts in"},{"startTime":1906.828,"endTime":1909.668,"body":"this book that are important to"},{"startTime":1909.688,"endTime":1912.358,"body":"talk about in the bounds of the"},{"startTime":1909.688,"endTime":1912.358,"body":"conversation we're having now."},{"startTime":1912.658,"endTime":1912.898,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1913.068,"endTime":1916.018,"body":"In the book, they say, well, there's"},{"startTime":1913.068,"endTime":1916.018,"body":"not really a great way to measure the"},{"startTime":1916.018,"endTime":1918.208,"body":"performance of software development teams."},{"startTime":1918.358,"endTime":1919.248,"body":"Because there really isn't."},{"startTime":1919.248,"endTime":1920.438,"body":"I mean, every team is unique."},{"startTime":1920.508,"endTime":1923.228,"body":"and you can even say, well, I"},{"startTime":1920.508,"endTime":1923.228,"body":"mean, are teams that unique?"},{"startTime":1923.378,"endTime":1926.648,"body":"Yeah, maybe they're not totally"},{"startTime":1923.378,"endTime":1926.648,"body":"unique, but the context."},{"startTime":1926.798,"endTime":1931.748,"body":". So the four things in that book that"},{"startTime":1926.798,"endTime":1931.748,"body":"they say to watch out for, to watch"},{"startTime":1931.748,"endTime":1935.298,"body":"out for performance on Suffer to own"},{"startTime":1931.748,"endTime":1935.298,"body":"team are delivery, early lead time."},{"startTime":1935.448,"endTime":1940.008,"body":"Deployment frequency time to restore"},{"startTime":1935.448,"endTime":1940.008,"body":"service and change fail rate Those"},{"startTime":1940.008,"endTime":1943.058,"body":"are the four things in that book"},{"startTime":1940.008,"endTime":1943.058,"body":"that they say to watch out for."},{"startTime":1943.358,"endTime":1943.978,"body":"Lead time."},{"startTime":1943.988,"endTime":1946.478,"body":"Well, we covered lead time"},{"startTime":1943.988,"endTime":1946.478,"body":"in another podcast cycle."},{"startTime":1946.478,"endTime":1947.088,"body":"Time measures."},{"startTime":1947.088,"endTime":1949.978,"body":"How long it takes for code changes"},{"startTime":1947.088,"endTime":1949.978,"body":"to go from being committed to running"},{"startTime":1949.978,"endTime":1952.628,"body":"in production when the development"},{"startTime":1949.978,"endTime":1952.628,"body":"team started working on it, lead"},{"startTime":1952.628,"endTime":1957.888,"body":"time, is when the customer requests"},{"startTime":1952.628,"endTime":1957.888,"body":"the chain until they receive the"},{"startTime":1958.048,"endTime":1961.458,"body":"production when the change is incepted"},{"startTime":1958.048,"endTime":1961.458,"body":"yet to when it's what's yeah, right."},{"startTime":1961.498,"endTime":1964.658,"body":"I swear to you , by the time we're"},{"startTime":1961.498,"endTime":1964.658,"body":"done with podcasts, I will get that"},{"startTime":1964.938,"endTime":1966.738,"body":"figured out and I will not screw it up."},{"startTime":1966.888,"endTime":1970.648,"body":"the next one is deployment frequency,"},{"startTime":1966.888,"endTime":1970.648,"body":"obviously deployment frequency is how"},{"startTime":1970.668,"endTime":1975.088,"body":"often an organization successfully"},{"startTime":1970.668,"endTime":1975.088,"body":"deploys code to production that should"},{"startTime":1975.098,"endTime":1979.228,"body":"be able to be measured pretty quickly"},{"startTime":1975.098,"endTime":1979.228,"body":"Do you know how to solve when your"},{"startTime":1979.238,"endTime":1983.378,"body":"developers find it too difficult to"},{"startTime":1979.238,"endTime":1983.378,"body":"deploy code to production every two weeks?"},{"startTime":1983.528,"endTime":1985.018,"body":"Deploy code every one week."},{"startTime":1985.278,"endTime":1985.828,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1985.978,"endTime":1989.918,"body":"Yeah, so the underlying ethos here"},{"startTime":1985.978,"endTime":1989.918,"body":"is if it hurts, do it more often."},{"startTime":1989.918,"endTime":1992.408,"body":"And if it's too difficult to do"},{"startTime":1989.918,"endTime":1992.408,"body":"it every week, do it every day."},{"startTime":1992.458,"endTime":1995.958,"body":"And then mean time to restore, how"},{"startTime":1992.458,"endTime":1995.958,"body":"long it takes to restore service"},{"startTime":1995.958,"endTime":1998.548,"body":"when an incident or defect occurs."},{"startTime":1998.598,"endTime":2003.118,"body":"Pretty trackable and then change failure"},{"startTime":1998.598,"endTime":2003.118,"body":"rate percentage of changes that result in"},{"startTime":2003.118,"endTime":2005.698,"body":"degraded service or require remediation."},{"startTime":2005.848,"endTime":2007.888,"body":"So all these are pretty trackable."},{"startTime":2008.028,"endTime":2009.108,"body":"They come right out of the book."},{"startTime":2009.138,"endTime":2009.848,"body":"Accelerate."},{"startTime":2009.908,"endTime":2011.858,"body":"they're the basic tenets of DevOps."},{"startTime":2011.868,"endTime":2016.368,"body":"To be honest, they're not anything"},{"startTime":2011.868,"endTime":2016.368,"body":"difficult or tough  to track, but I"},{"startTime":2016.368,"endTime":2018.498,"body":"feel these are all delivery metrics."},{"startTime":2018.498,"endTime":2019.958,"body":"They have nothing to do"},{"startTime":2018.498,"endTime":2019.958,"body":"with product management."},{"startTime":2019.958,"endTime":2021.838,"body":"So I'll make that case right now."},{"startTime":2021.988,"endTime":2025.378,"body":"Delivery managers should be interested in"},{"startTime":2021.988,"endTime":2025.378,"body":"this and maybe service managers as well."},{"startTime":2025.378,"endTime":2026.548,"body":"Some of these metrics, right?"},{"startTime":2026.548,"endTime":2028.018,"body":"MTRs and so forth."},{"startTime":2028.068,"endTime":2032.368,"body":"The other things that the book talks"},{"startTime":2028.068,"endTime":2032.368,"body":"about are  cultural aspects, which is"},{"startTime":2032.378,"endTime":2036.008,"body":"like how your teams work together and"},{"startTime":2032.378,"endTime":2036.008,"body":"how they work with other teams and"},{"startTime":2036.008,"endTime":2040.098,"body":"then Management practices, meaning like"},{"startTime":2036.008,"endTime":2040.098,"body":"we're gonna make our workflows visible."},{"startTime":2040.228,"endTime":2042.418,"body":"We're gonna make our"},{"startTime":2040.228,"endTime":2042.418,"body":"prioritization frameworks visible."},{"startTime":2042.618,"endTime":2047.728,"body":"We're going to make our changes across"},{"startTime":2042.618,"endTime":2047.728,"body":"product lines and intra and inter and"},{"startTime":2047.738,"endTime":2052.438,"body":"intra product lines visible and then"},{"startTime":2047.738,"endTime":2052.438,"body":"create feedback loops and continuous"},{"startTime":2052.438,"endTime":2057.538,"body":"improvement Very little of the book is new"},{"startTime":2052.438,"endTime":2057.538,"body":"to anyone that would listen to this book."},{"startTime":2057.668,"endTime":2058.348,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2058.348,"endTime":2062.148,"body":"I don't think there's a whole lot in"},{"startTime":2058.348,"endTime":2062.148,"body":"that book that's earth shattering or new."},{"startTime":2062.298,"endTime":2065.298,"body":"Think about when it came"},{"startTime":2062.298,"endTime":2065.298,"body":"out, probably 2018 right?"},{"startTime":2065.438,"endTime":2068.568,"body":"So, around that time, there"},{"startTime":2065.438,"endTime":2068.568,"body":"wasn't a whole lot of new things."},{"startTime":2068.608,"endTime":2071.808,"body":"except, the buzz was all"},{"startTime":2068.608,"endTime":2071.808,"body":"around the Spotify model."},{"startTime":2071.958,"endTime":2074.398,"body":"And the book doesn't"},{"startTime":2071.958,"endTime":2074.398,"body":"miss out on that, right?"},{"startTime":2074.428,"endTime":2075.288,"body":"But that's then."},{"startTime":2075.628,"endTime":2076.448,"body":"This is now."},{"startTime":2076.768,"endTime":2078.648,"body":"So when you're reading this"},{"startTime":2076.768,"endTime":2078.648,"body":"book, if you're reading this"},{"startTime":2078.648,"endTime":2080.228,"body":"book, think about that, right?"},{"startTime":2080.558,"endTime":2082.778,"body":"The world has moved on since 2018."},{"startTime":2082.928,"endTime":2084.668,"body":"I wouldn't key in on the Spotify model."},{"startTime":2084.698,"endTime":2085.898,"body":"read team topologies."},{"startTime":2086.048,"endTime":2090.248,"body":"your streamline teams go along"},{"startTime":2086.048,"endTime":2090.248,"body":"with your normal product lines"},{"startTime":2090.248,"endTime":2091.378,"body":"and your streams of work."},{"startTime":2091.458,"endTime":2093.908,"body":"the book talks about decoupling"},{"startTime":2091.458,"endTime":2093.908,"body":"architecture and a couple of other"},{"startTime":2093.908,"endTime":2095.058,"body":"things that are pretty basic."},{"startTime":2095.208,"endTime":2098.058,"body":"a couple of good things that were in the"},{"startTime":2095.208,"endTime":2098.058,"body":"book that were interesting to me were"},{"startTime":2098.058,"endTime":2101.918,"body":"they talk about queuing theory, about as"},{"startTime":2098.058,"endTime":2101.918,"body":"utilization approaches a hundred percent,"},{"startTime":2102.138,"endTime":2103.928,"body":"the lead time approaches infinity."},{"startTime":2103.928,"endTime":2105.028,"body":"I thought that was pretty interesting."},{"startTime":2105.028,"endTime":2108.788,"body":"So like, if you're squeezing your"},{"startTime":2105.028,"endTime":2108.788,"body":"development teams constantly for"},{"startTime":2108.788,"endTime":2111.528,"body":"more and more and more stuff, and"},{"startTime":2108.788,"endTime":2111.528,"body":"there's no additional bandwidth for"},{"startTime":2111.528,"endTime":2115.298,"body":"them to do cool things or whatever"},{"startTime":2111.528,"endTime":2115.298,"body":"of course, they're going to miss all"},{"startTime":2115.298,"endTime":2116.528,"body":"their sprint commitments or whatever."},{"startTime":2116.868,"endTime":2117.428,"body":"Part of this."},{"startTime":2117.578,"endTime":2117.948,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2117.958,"endTime":2121.188,"body":"Like the difficult part of this"},{"startTime":2117.958,"endTime":2121.188,"body":"conversation to me is like the"},{"startTime":2121.188,"endTime":2124.868,"body":"spike of like, we're doing things"},{"startTime":2121.188,"endTime":2124.868,"body":"that we've never done before"},{"startTime":2125.108,"endTime":2126.488,"body":"that completely unknown things."},{"startTime":2126.788,"endTime":2127.088,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2127.088,"endTime":2129.428,"body":"Well, if we're doing completely"},{"startTime":2127.088,"endTime":2129.428,"body":"unknown, if we're operating in the"},{"startTime":2129.438,"endTime":2132.598,"body":"realm of completely unknown things,"},{"startTime":2129.438,"endTime":2132.598,"body":"there needs to be a time between"},{"startTime":2132.598,"endTime":2136.398,"body":"check ins where you present your work,"},{"startTime":2132.598,"endTime":2136.398,"body":"And we talk about the findings and"},{"startTime":2136.398,"endTime":2138.218,"body":"we recommend the next steps, right?"},{"startTime":2138.498,"endTime":2142.708,"body":"Okay I think that time should"},{"startTime":2138.498,"endTime":2142.708,"body":"not be more than 48 hours I"},{"startTime":2142.708,"endTime":2144.468,"body":"would prefer it to be every day."},{"startTime":2144.518,"endTime":2148.238,"body":"the purpose of having stand ups Is"},{"startTime":2144.518,"endTime":2148.238,"body":"so we can check in every 24 hours."},{"startTime":2148.248,"endTime":2151.988,"body":"So if we're saying 48 we're saying"},{"startTime":2148.248,"endTime":2151.988,"body":"that one of those stand ups is going"},{"startTime":2151.988,"endTime":2154.508,"body":"to be like Still doing my thing."},{"startTime":2154.718,"endTime":2155.868,"body":"Don't need any help."},{"startTime":2155.888,"endTime":2156.998,"body":"No impediments."},{"startTime":2157.038,"endTime":2158.148,"body":"Everything's on track."},{"startTime":2158.308,"endTime":2161.408,"body":"You don't get to see anything and I'm"},{"startTime":2158.308,"endTime":2161.408,"body":"not going to present any work to you."},{"startTime":2161.418,"endTime":2164.731,"body":"Like that's not, only because"},{"startTime":2161.418,"endTime":2164.731,"body":"like I bring everything back to"},{"startTime":2164.731,"endTime":2168.641,"body":"like the startup mentality, that's"},{"startTime":2164.731,"endTime":2168.641,"body":"not good enough at a startup."},{"startTime":2168.641,"endTime":2170.161,"body":"24 hours and no progress."},{"startTime":2170.311,"endTime":2173.401,"body":"I mean, like startup, like we're"},{"startTime":2170.311,"endTime":2173.401,"body":"not that tight at a startup"},{"startTime":2173.401,"endTime":2176.731,"body":"where 24 hours gets taken to"},{"startTime":2173.401,"endTime":2176.731,"body":"company, . Two days of no progress."},{"startTime":2176.741,"endTime":2180.981,"body":"I mean how many days it's a fifth"},{"startTime":2176.741,"endTime":2180.981,"body":"of a sprint after all, you know I"},{"startTime":2180.991,"endTime":2184.491,"body":"think people also need to not think"},{"startTime":2180.991,"endTime":2184.491,"body":"about this kind of time box thing as"},{"startTime":2184.491,"endTime":2187.321,"body":"a A pin on the time horizon, right?"},{"startTime":2187.561,"endTime":2189.451,"body":"Well, Nick we'll by tomorrow's stand up."},{"startTime":2189.451,"endTime":2191.981,"body":"We'll know it's like That's"},{"startTime":2189.451,"endTime":2191.981,"body":"just a calendar event."},{"startTime":2192.021,"endTime":2193.271,"body":"We'll find out today."},{"startTime":2193.321,"endTime":2196.291,"body":"And if you know something or you"},{"startTime":2193.321,"endTime":2196.291,"body":"want to ask questions, ask questions."},{"startTime":2196.501,"endTime":2197.521,"body":"Don't wait till tomorrow."},{"startTime":2197.651,"endTime":2202.401,"body":"Well, I mean, I also feel like if multiple"},{"startTime":2197.651,"endTime":2202.401,"body":"developers were on this together, like"},{"startTime":2202.411,"endTime":2204.341,"body":"you would never, you wouldn't go for you."},{"startTime":2204.351,"endTime":2205.031,"body":"No, you wouldn't."},{"startTime":2205.081,"endTime":2209.241,"body":"you'd have two people and you would"},{"startTime":2205.081,"endTime":2209.241,"body":"go a couple hours, probably two hours."},{"startTime":2209.291,"endTime":2211.331,"body":"You mean three hours,"},{"startTime":2209.291,"endTime":2211.331,"body":"half a day at the most."},{"startTime":2211.361,"endTime":2214.351,"body":"And you would know something and"},{"startTime":2211.361,"endTime":2214.351,"body":"you'd be ready to make the call."},{"startTime":2214.491,"endTime":2216.491,"body":"the other part of this,"},{"startTime":2214.491,"endTime":2216.491,"body":"which I brought up."},{"startTime":2216.641,"endTime":2220.431,"body":"And then I didn't go into depth was"},{"startTime":2216.641,"endTime":2220.431,"body":"seeing the progress of something"},{"startTime":2220.581,"endTime":2226.201,"body":"and then deciding this stinks, we're"},{"startTime":2220.581,"endTime":2226.201,"body":"going to abandon it, throw it away."},{"startTime":2226.501,"endTime":2230.111,"body":"And now  I've just triggered a"},{"startTime":2226.501,"endTime":2230.111,"body":"bunch of people , we're going to"},{"startTime":2230.281,"endTime":2233.531,"body":"code this thing for half the sprint"},{"startTime":2230.281,"endTime":2233.531,"body":"and then we're going to review it."},{"startTime":2233.531,"endTime":2235.891,"body":"And then we're going to decide"},{"startTime":2233.531,"endTime":2235.891,"body":"we're going to throw it all away."},{"startTime":2236.041,"endTime":2239.731,"body":"that's where I always tell my"},{"startTime":2236.041,"endTime":2239.731,"body":"teams,  don't get wedded to the item."},{"startTime":2239.761,"endTime":2244.101,"body":"you're not married to it you have"},{"startTime":2239.761,"endTime":2244.101,"body":"been in large organizations where the"},{"startTime":2244.101,"endTime":2249.921,"body":"idea of throwing away something we're"},{"startTime":2244.101,"endTime":2249.921,"body":"working on is insane They even suggest"},{"startTime":2249.971,"endTime":2253.381,"body":"roll all that code out put it hit the"},{"startTime":2249.971,"endTime":2253.381,"body":"trash button and throw it all away."},{"startTime":2253.431,"endTime":2254.531,"body":"But it's a cultural thing."},{"startTime":2254.701,"endTime":2255.151,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2255.301,"endTime":2258.231,"body":"Large organizations, definitely,"},{"startTime":2255.301,"endTime":2258.231,"body":"this doesn't go down well."},{"startTime":2258.521,"endTime":2262.721,"body":"Because it's the same organizations"},{"startTime":2258.521,"endTime":2262.721,"body":"that say, Well, value utilization,"},{"startTime":2262.721,"endTime":2268.181,"body":"you're wasting time, you wasted a half"},{"startTime":2262.721,"endTime":2268.181,"body":"a sprint of six people, whatever it is."},{"startTime":2268.331,"endTime":2269.561,"body":"but culturally, right?"},{"startTime":2269.581,"endTime":2272.801,"body":"You've learned something you"},{"startTime":2269.581,"endTime":2272.801,"body":"didn't know half a sprint ago."},{"startTime":2272.951,"endTime":2275.241,"body":"Based on that, the call needs to be made."},{"startTime":2275.261,"endTime":2277.071,"body":"Do we continue down this path?"},{"startTime":2277.281,"endTime":2278.391,"body":"Which is a cul de sac."},{"startTime":2278.541,"endTime":2281.141,"body":"This is a no through road, right?"},{"startTime":2281.251,"endTime":2282.671,"body":"So make the decision."},{"startTime":2282.671,"endTime":2285.451,"body":"The earlier you make that"},{"startTime":2282.671,"endTime":2285.451,"body":"decision, The better it is."},{"startTime":2285.601,"endTime":2289.221,"body":"If you wait till half a sprint,"},{"startTime":2285.601,"endTime":2289.221,"body":"okay, this is the earliest possible."},{"startTime":2289.451,"endTime":2290.181,"body":"What do they call that?"},{"startTime":2290.181,"endTime":2292.161,"body":"The last responsible moment, right?"},{"startTime":2292.431,"endTime":2293.561,"body":"Well, it could be half a sprint."},{"startTime":2293.561,"endTime":2294.811,"body":"It could be the minute you learn."},{"startTime":2294.811,"endTime":2296.971,"body":"It could be one day left in the sprint."},{"startTime":2296.991,"endTime":2301.111,"body":"You say, well, whatever we've been"},{"startTime":2296.991,"endTime":2301.111,"body":"working on is now null and void because"},{"startTime":2301.401,"endTime":2302.831,"body":"we've just learned something, right?"},{"startTime":2302.981,"endTime":2307.121,"body":"So feel empowered to say, based"},{"startTime":2302.981,"endTime":2307.121,"body":"on what we've learned, This"},{"startTime":2307.121,"endTime":2308.001,"body":"isn't the right thing to do."},{"startTime":2308.011,"endTime":2310.681,"body":"Why continue on that even"},{"startTime":2308.011,"endTime":2310.681,"body":"for one more day, right?"},{"startTime":2310.831,"endTime":2315.051,"body":"Well, also there's the idea that we put a"},{"startTime":2310.831,"endTime":2315.051,"body":"feature in production and then it got no"},{"startTime":2315.051,"endTime":2316.591,"body":"adoption like we thought it was going to."},{"startTime":2316.601,"endTime":2317.631,"body":"And now we're going to roll it out."},{"startTime":2317.651,"endTime":2320.261,"body":"Like the whole purpose of"},{"startTime":2317.651,"endTime":2320.261,"body":"feature flags is like, we just"},{"startTime":2320.311,"endTime":2321.681,"body":"tick it off and now it's gone."},{"startTime":2321.831,"endTime":2325.651,"body":"Like again, this is in the same category"},{"startTime":2321.831,"endTime":2325.651,"body":"of like, why are we going to leave that"},{"startTime":2325.651,"endTime":2329.441,"body":"code out there that we have to maintain"},{"startTime":2325.651,"endTime":2329.441,"body":"and deal with in the future when obviously"},{"startTime":2329.611,"endTime":2332.671,"body":"we missed, it didn't get adoption,"},{"startTime":2329.611,"endTime":2332.671,"body":"we turned it off, we rolled it out of"},{"startTime":2332.691,"endTime":2334.571,"body":"the application, and now it's gone."},{"startTime":2334.791,"endTime":2338.191,"body":"I made the call as a product manager,"},{"startTime":2334.791,"endTime":2338.191,"body":"I'm not, I'm not maintaining this."},{"startTime":2338.341,"endTime":2340.301,"body":"You know, I built this whole Jenga tower."},{"startTime":2340.371,"endTime":2340.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2340.851,"endTime":2343.081,"body":"I'm not maintaining the top 10 floors."},{"startTime":2343.261,"endTime":2345.411,"body":"Just take the 10 floors"},{"startTime":2343.261,"endTime":2345.411,"body":"off and throw them away."},{"startTime":2345.661,"endTime":2349.031,"body":"And now there's less chance of our Jenga"},{"startTime":2345.661,"endTime":2349.031,"body":"tower collapsing Well, you're doing a"},{"startTime":2349.031,"endTime":2350.641,"body":"number of things at that point, right?"},{"startTime":2350.641,"endTime":2352.431,"body":"You're not accumulating tech debt."},{"startTime":2352.531,"endTime":2353.721,"body":"That's the first thing, right?"},{"startTime":2353.871,"endTime":2356.181,"body":"The other thing is, it's"},{"startTime":2353.871,"endTime":2356.181,"body":"the opportunity cost."},{"startTime":2356.231,"endTime":2358.631,"body":"Are you gonna continue working for"},{"startTime":2356.231,"endTime":2358.631,"body":"the rest of the sprint on stuff"},{"startTime":2358.631,"endTime":2360.281,"body":"that you now know isn't valuable?"},{"startTime":2360.281,"endTime":2361.771,"body":"What could you be working on instead?"},{"startTime":2361.921,"endTime":2366.341,"body":"But unfortunately, as you said, people"},{"startTime":2361.921,"endTime":2366.341,"body":"get emotional about this, and it"},{"startTime":2366.341,"endTime":2369.211,"body":"is ripping the band aid, but people"},{"startTime":2366.341,"endTime":2369.211,"body":"are like, well, it hurts as much"},{"startTime":2369.211,"endTime":2370.751,"body":"as ripping a band aid off, right?"},{"startTime":2370.771,"endTime":2372.281,"body":"What's the best way to do that, though?"},{"startTime":2372.431,"endTime":2373.751,"body":"Just pull and yank."},{"startTime":2373.901,"endTime":2375.251,"body":"Don't keep tugging away at it."},{"startTime":2375.401,"endTime":2378.411,"body":"So if you're a developer and"},{"startTime":2375.401,"endTime":2378.411,"body":"you're in this situation, please"},{"startTime":2378.411,"endTime":2382.081,"body":"understand your work isn't just"},{"startTime":2378.411,"endTime":2382.081,"body":"pounding out lines of code."},{"startTime":2382.081,"endTime":2383.321,"body":"Your work is to add value."},{"startTime":2383.361,"endTime":2385.831,"body":"In a minute it's determined"},{"startTime":2383.361,"endTime":2385.831,"body":"that this is not adding value."},{"startTime":2385.831,"endTime":2388.321,"body":"Feel free to own that and"},{"startTime":2385.831,"endTime":2388.321,"body":"say, oh yeah, it's not."},{"startTime":2388.471,"endTime":2389.701,"body":"Let's move somewhere else."},{"startTime":2389.851,"endTime":2392.791,"body":"Also, I mean, are we dedicated"},{"startTime":2389.851,"endTime":2392.791,"body":"to simplicity or are we not?"},{"startTime":2392.941,"endTime":2393.931,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2393.941,"endTime":2396.671,"body":"Or are we dedicated to everything"},{"startTime":2393.941,"endTime":2396.671,"body":"we've ever done in the past?"},{"startTime":2396.821,"endTime":2397.781,"body":"Like, I don't know, okay."},{"startTime":2397.781,"endTime":2401.521,"body":"Well  this podcast kind of cropped up"},{"startTime":2397.781,"endTime":2401.521,"body":"with the advice of, Oh, just work on your"},{"startTime":2401.521,"endTime":2403.021,"body":"tech lead and everything will be great."},{"startTime":2403.211,"endTime":2406.281,"body":"Like that, that doesn't really work"},{"startTime":2403.211,"endTime":2406.281,"body":"because again, your tech lead could"},{"startTime":2406.291,"endTime":2409.601,"body":"be You know, they could be  taking"},{"startTime":2406.291,"endTime":2409.601,"body":"the stance of like, well the team"},{"startTime":2409.611,"endTime":2412.741,"body":"will work itself out given time, just"},{"startTime":2409.611,"endTime":2412.741,"body":"got to give them time to work it out."},{"startTime":2413.011,"endTime":2416.781,"body":"you know, you as a product manager, you"},{"startTime":2413.011,"endTime":2416.781,"body":"will say like, well, I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":2416.781,"endTime":2418.811,"body":"want to just give it time to work out."},{"startTime":2419.001,"endTime":2420.541,"body":"I'd like a little more involvement."},{"startTime":2420.761,"endTime":2424.261,"body":"I'd like a little more guidance to my"},{"startTime":2420.761,"endTime":2424.261,"body":"developers to kind of push them along."},{"startTime":2424.411,"endTime":2428.861,"body":"Especially if we have tech leads that"},{"startTime":2424.411,"endTime":2428.861,"body":"have seen a better way of working I'd like"},{"startTime":2428.861,"endTime":2430.561,"body":"to move us along through these things."},{"startTime":2430.791,"endTime":2432.331,"body":"So that's what this started as."},{"startTime":2432.391,"endTime":2436.641,"body":"I mean, sometimes you do get into"},{"startTime":2432.391,"endTime":2436.641,"body":"situations where the tech leads will be"},{"startTime":2436.641,"endTime":2442.551,"body":"almost like confrontational and they'll"},{"startTime":2436.641,"endTime":2442.551,"body":"say, Why you as the product manager are"},{"startTime":2442.551,"endTime":2444.391,"body":"having an issue with us, with the team."},{"startTime":2444.541,"endTime":2447.281,"body":"These other product managers don't"},{"startTime":2444.541,"endTime":2447.281,"body":"have an issue with the team, right?"},{"startTime":2447.471,"endTime":2448.191,"body":"That can happen."},{"startTime":2448.341,"endTime":2450.481,"body":"But also sometimes your tech lead."},{"startTime":2450.631,"endTime":2453.361,"body":"Isn't up with modern"},{"startTime":2450.631,"endTime":2453.361,"body":"ways of working, right?"},{"startTime":2453.371,"endTime":2456.931,"body":"They came up through the ranks of"},{"startTime":2453.371,"endTime":2456.931,"body":"development that, that arm of the"},{"startTime":2456.931,"endTime":2459.851,"body":"company, and they can be the other way."},{"startTime":2459.851,"endTime":2462.011,"body":"They can say, well, you keep"},{"startTime":2459.851,"endTime":2462.011,"body":"changing your mind too often."},{"startTime":2462.011,"endTime":2465.981,"body":"I want next time I want everything written"},{"startTime":2462.011,"endTime":2465.981,"body":"down so that you don't blame the team."},{"startTime":2466.326,"endTime":2470.306,"body":"Yeah, because we're you keep changing"},{"startTime":2466.326,"endTime":2470.306,"body":"your mind, especially in just what we"},{"startTime":2470.306,"endTime":2474.066,"body":"discussed now was we found that there's"},{"startTime":2470.306,"endTime":2474.066,"body":"no value in continuing after half a"},{"startTime":2474.066,"endTime":2477.566,"body":"sprint or whatever, three days into the"},{"startTime":2474.066,"endTime":2477.566,"body":"sprint, that kind of thing, they need to"},{"startTime":2477.566,"endTime":2482.276,"body":"understand, they need to be on board with"},{"startTime":2477.566,"endTime":2482.276,"body":"value, rather than we have to deliver"},{"startTime":2482.276,"endTime":2485.636,"body":"all this that we committed to, because"},{"startTime":2482.276,"endTime":2485.636,"body":"it's a two week time box, and thou shalt"},{"startTime":2485.666,"endTime":2487.576,"body":"not change anything in that two week."},{"startTime":2487.577,"endTime":2490.347,"body":"So, as a product manager, you need"},{"startTime":2487.577,"endTime":2490.347,"body":"to watch for that, I think, right?"},{"startTime":2490.347,"endTime":2491.537,"body":"And then educate them."},{"startTime":2491.557,"endTime":2495.217,"body":"I mean, yes, it's the scrum master's"},{"startTime":2491.557,"endTime":2495.217,"body":"job to facilitate, but assuming"},{"startTime":2495.217,"endTime":2496.837,"body":"that they're on board, too, right?"},{"startTime":2497.037,"endTime":2501.047,"body":"I haven't come across that scenario"},{"startTime":2497.037,"endTime":2501.047,"body":"as often where the scrum master is."},{"startTime":2501.087,"endTime":2503.147,"body":"You know, they're simply ticking boxes."},{"startTime":2503.387,"endTime":2506.507,"body":"Well, it's, I mean, you're in a"},{"startTime":2503.387,"endTime":2506.507,"body":"tougher scenario where your tech lead"},{"startTime":2506.577,"endTime":2508.217,"body":"inherits the role of scrum master."},{"startTime":2508.347,"endTime":2509.107,"body":"Oh, good God."},{"startTime":2509.107,"endTime":2509.387,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2509.407,"endTime":2512.447,"body":"Now you've got one person"},{"startTime":2509.407,"endTime":2512.447,"body":"who's supposed to be informed"},{"startTime":2512.447,"endTime":2513.677,"body":"and educated on both of them."},{"startTime":2513.677,"endTime":2517.767,"body":"But whether they are or not, like that's a"},{"startTime":2513.677,"endTime":2517.767,"body":"question of where they came from and what"},{"startTime":2517.767,"endTime":2519.557,"body":"they've seen in their career and whatnot."},{"startTime":2519.567,"endTime":2520.467,"body":"So I don't know."},{"startTime":2520.467,"endTime":2525.637,"body":"I want to paint a picture that there's"},{"startTime":2520.467,"endTime":2525.637,"body":"hope for people, but also like get, get"},{"startTime":2525.637,"endTime":2528.267,"body":"educated and keep their resume updated."},{"startTime":2528.477,"endTime":2529.327,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2529.357,"endTime":2529.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2529.617,"endTime":2530.597,"body":"Keep the resume updated."},{"startTime":2530.607,"endTime":2532.337,"body":"Hopefully you've enjoyed today's podcast."},{"startTime":2532.347,"endTime":2536.207,"body":"Let us know in the comments below"},{"startTime":2532.347,"endTime":2536.207,"body":"any topics you want us to discuss."},{"startTime":2536.257,"endTime":2538.337,"body":"And don't forget to like, and subscribe."}]}