{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":13.307,"body":"welcome back to arguing agile today."},{"startTime":13.307,"endTime":17.227,"body":"We are talking about the product life"},{"startTime":13.307,"endTime":17.227,"body":"cycle or product development life"},{"startTime":17.237,"endTime":19.047,"body":"cycle or product maturity life cycle."},{"startTime":19.057,"endTime":20.287,"body":"The whole thing product life cycle."},{"startTime":20.347,"endTime":22.918,"body":"So There's a lot of models for"},{"startTime":20.347,"endTime":22.918,"body":"the product life cycle that"},{"startTime":22.918,"endTime":23.958,"body":"are floating around out there."},{"startTime":24.098,"endTime":26.708,"body":"we've settled for this"},{"startTime":24.098,"endTime":26.708,"body":"podcast on a product model."},{"startTime":26.768,"endTime":27.687,"body":"I put it on the screen."},{"startTime":27.688,"endTime":28.548,"body":"It's in the middle of us now."},{"startTime":28.567,"endTime":31.668,"body":"There are four phases that we're"},{"startTime":28.567,"endTime":31.668,"body":"using to kind of bound this podcast."},{"startTime":32.058,"endTime":34.878,"body":"One on the screen, it's called"},{"startTime":32.058,"endTime":34.878,"body":"Introduction, but what we called it"},{"startTime":34.878,"endTime":37.448,"body":"was Market Development, or like MVP."},{"startTime":37.853,"endTime":41.813,"body":"this is your pre crossing the chasm"},{"startTime":37.853,"endTime":41.813,"body":"phase And then the other ones are"},{"startTime":41.813,"endTime":47.163,"body":"really the main phases of your product"},{"startTime":41.813,"endTime":47.163,"body":"life cycle growth maturity And sunset"},{"startTime":47.223,"endTime":51.036,"body":"or some might say decline the image"},{"startTime":47.223,"endTime":51.036,"body":"that we are using here Which you"},{"startTime":51.036,"endTime":54.668,"body":"randomly pulled off the internet says"},{"startTime":51.036,"endTime":54.668,"body":"decline, but we like to call it sunset."},{"startTime":54.778,"endTime":57.978,"body":"This is one of the most common models"},{"startTime":54.778,"endTime":57.978,"body":"out there to describe the product life"},{"startTime":57.978,"endTime":62.198,"body":"cycle You may have some that just limited"},{"startTime":57.978,"endTime":62.198,"body":"to two or three columns But yeah, this"},{"startTime":62.198,"endTime":64.598,"body":"is a very general Broadly used one."},{"startTime":64.688,"endTime":66.468,"body":"So this is the one we're"},{"startTime":64.688,"endTime":66.468,"body":"going to use for this podcast."},{"startTime":66.478,"endTime":70.628,"body":"And I wanted to talk about two things"},{"startTime":66.478,"endTime":70.628,"body":"in this podcast to kind of help people"},{"startTime":70.728,"endTime":74.738,"body":"think about the product life cycle which"},{"startTime":70.728,"endTime":74.738,"body":"is the team development that's happening"},{"startTime":74.908,"endTime":76.428,"body":"in that life cycle of the product."},{"startTime":76.438,"endTime":79.958,"body":"And then what activities in product"},{"startTime":76.438,"endTime":79.958,"body":"management are happening during that"},{"startTime":80.088,"endTime":85.338,"body":"cycle So let's start in the MVP phase"},{"startTime":80.088,"endTime":85.338,"body":"Boy, this is going to be confusing for me."},{"startTime":85.608,"endTime":86.598,"body":"Let's start with MVP."},{"startTime":86.608,"endTime":87.798,"body":"Like I think of MVP."},{"startTime":88.048,"endTime":91.538,"body":"Not as you're building a lot of"},{"startTime":88.048,"endTime":91.538,"body":"large scale features or you're"},{"startTime":91.568,"endTime":92.918,"body":"rapidly expanding teams or whatever."},{"startTime":92.918,"endTime":98.138,"body":"I think of like a skeleton crew that"},{"startTime":92.918,"endTime":98.138,"body":"is knocking out some stuff very quickly"},{"startTime":98.138,"endTime":99.438,"body":"and sending it to market to test."},{"startTime":99.448,"endTime":102.588,"body":"If a signal is there, like"},{"startTime":99.448,"endTime":102.588,"body":"go see our episode on MVP."},{"startTime":102.838,"endTime":104.578,"body":"Right, that we did a long, long time ago."},{"startTime":104.618,"endTime":107.368,"body":"Go see our MVP episode where we kind"},{"startTime":104.618,"endTime":107.368,"body":"of argued back and forth, the true"},{"startTime":107.368,"endTime":111.278,"body":"arguing Agile episode, where we argued"},{"startTime":107.368,"endTime":111.278,"body":"back and forth about what MVP was"},{"startTime":111.278,"endTime":118.068,"body":"because I said like, well, just whip"},{"startTime":111.278,"endTime":118.068,"body":"up a cartoon illustration of your flow"},{"startTime":118.078,"endTime":121.828,"body":"lifecycle of Dropbox and send it to your"},{"startTime":118.078,"endTime":121.828,"body":"investors and if they give you cash,"},{"startTime":122.193,"endTime":126.593,"body":"Congratulations, you're done with your"},{"startTime":122.193,"endTime":126.593,"body":"MVP phase, you can move on to your next,"},{"startTime":126.633,"endTime":128.253,"body":"whatever, your growth phase, right?"},{"startTime":128.373,"endTime":129.053,"body":"Because you got money."},{"startTime":129.303,"endTime":130.043,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":130.043,"endTime":135.443,"body":"I think the primary purpose of MVP phase"},{"startTime":130.043,"endTime":135.443,"body":"is really to figure out, like you said,"},{"startTime":135.453,"endTime":139.933,"body":"figure out if there's a signal, learn"},{"startTime":135.453,"endTime":139.933,"body":"what you don't know, and pivot, right?"},{"startTime":139.973,"endTime":143.208,"body":"Before you can get into proper"},{"startTime":139.973,"endTime":143.208,"body":"development of a product."},{"startTime":143.458,"endTime":147.748,"body":"So as long as it's doing the things"},{"startTime":143.458,"endTime":147.748,"body":"that people are looking for, set their"},{"startTime":147.748,"endTime":150.658,"body":"expectations accordingly, they're"},{"startTime":147.748,"endTime":150.658,"body":"not going to get all the features"},{"startTime":151.038,"endTime":152.758,"body":"or bells and whistles, so to speak."},{"startTime":152.758,"endTime":153.068,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":153.318,"endTime":157.258,"body":"And also they're not going to get, like"},{"startTime":153.318,"endTime":157.258,"body":"you said, fully integrated products"},{"startTime":157.258,"endTime":161.088,"body":"with other things on the periphery that"},{"startTime":157.258,"endTime":161.088,"body":"eventually there'll be integrated with,"},{"startTime":161.098,"endTime":165.276,"body":"but for now they could just return, you"},{"startTime":161.098,"endTime":165.276,"body":"know Stub messages or something like that."},{"startTime":165.276,"endTime":165.476,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":165.746,"endTime":170.496,"body":"So very important phase and I feel like"},{"startTime":165.746,"endTime":170.496,"body":"I've come across Programs where people"},{"startTime":170.496,"endTime":175.876,"body":"rush through this a bit you know somebody"},{"startTime":170.496,"endTime":175.876,"body":"assumes that people will love it or"},{"startTime":175.876,"endTime":179.446,"body":"there's going to be enough purchase"},{"startTime":175.876,"endTime":179.446,"body":"For this product so that you know,"},{"startTime":179.446,"endTime":182.956,"body":"we'll proceed with that and they don't"},{"startTime":179.446,"endTime":182.956,"body":"quite validate their assumptions and"},{"startTime":182.956,"endTime":187.746,"body":"get signals i've seen that I think more"},{"startTime":182.956,"endTime":187.746,"body":"often than the other way around where"},{"startTime":187.786,"endTime":191.186,"body":"it's Thorough and it is properly done."},{"startTime":191.236,"endTime":192.036,"body":"Let's put it that way."},{"startTime":192.286,"endTime":197.696,"body":"Our MVP episode, what is minimum viable"},{"startTime":192.286,"endTime":197.696,"body":"product was arguing the agile one 41 wow,"},{"startTime":198.096,"endTime":200.416,"body":"clocked in at 40 minutes and 13 seconds."},{"startTime":200.716,"endTime":200.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":200.97,"endTime":203.804,"body":"here we're going to talk about"},{"startTime":200.97,"endTime":203.804,"body":"the stages though, right?"},{"startTime":203.804,"endTime":207.234,"body":"So the first stage we're in right"},{"startTime":203.804,"endTime":207.234,"body":"now, we're talking about the really"},{"startTime":207.244,"endTime":209.444,"body":"getting off the ground stage, right?"},{"startTime":209.554,"endTime":212.504,"body":"And here it says MVP market development."},{"startTime":212.754,"endTime":214.964,"body":"So that could be"},{"startTime":212.754,"endTime":214.964,"body":"confusing for some people."},{"startTime":215.214,"endTime":216.514,"body":"You're validating the market."},{"startTime":216.604,"endTime":218.944,"body":"Is there a market for your product, right?"},{"startTime":219.194,"endTime":222.034,"body":"If it's a brand new product"},{"startTime":219.194,"endTime":222.034,"body":"that doesn't exist out there."},{"startTime":222.174,"endTime":223.344,"body":"No competitor has it."},{"startTime":223.354,"endTime":224.674,"body":"You're also developing a market."},{"startTime":225.109,"endTime":228.349,"body":"And that this is doing it the hard"},{"startTime":225.109,"endTime":228.349,"body":"way is building the market while"},{"startTime":228.349,"endTime":230.009,"body":"building the software at the same time."},{"startTime":230.299,"endTime":231.549,"body":"It's much easier to just do it."},{"startTime":231.549,"endTime":234.229,"body":"Google's way where you just look"},{"startTime":231.549,"endTime":234.229,"body":"at a developed market and then"},{"startTime":234.229,"endTime":235.709,"body":"you just steal everything, right?"},{"startTime":235.959,"endTime":239.409,"body":"and remember we learned on the"},{"startTime":235.959,"endTime":239.409,"body":"podcast where we watched the video"},{"startTime":239.409,"endTime":242.129,"body":"from Eric Schmidt where the Eric"},{"startTime":239.409,"endTime":242.129,"body":"Schmidt We learned that if you're"},{"startTime":242.129,"endTime":243.439,"body":"not successful, it's not stealing."},{"startTime":243.689,"endTime":244.499,"body":"Call my lawyer."},{"startTime":244.959,"endTime":245.529,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":245.639,"endTime":246.439,"body":"It is hard."},{"startTime":246.459,"endTime":247.679,"body":"It is a hard way of doing it."},{"startTime":248.109,"endTime":253.299,"body":"On the other hand, though, if the market"},{"startTime":248.109,"endTime":253.299,"body":"isn't there, you do have the luxury of"},{"startTime":253.549,"endTime":257.409,"body":"steering the market in the direction"},{"startTime":253.549,"endTime":257.409,"body":"that you want to take it, right?"},{"startTime":257.749,"endTime":259.679,"body":"So can we think about products like that?"},{"startTime":259.749,"endTime":263.089,"body":"Yeah, this is examples that there"},{"startTime":259.749,"endTime":263.089,"body":"was no market and then suddenly."},{"startTime":263.339,"endTime":266.929,"body":"An entry came and everybody"},{"startTime":263.339,"endTime":266.929,"body":"kind of followed along, right?"},{"startTime":267.179,"endTime":269.989,"body":"What about the very first Sony Walkman?"},{"startTime":270.169,"endTime":273.639,"body":"I do remember people carrying their"},{"startTime":270.169,"endTime":273.639,"body":"big box cassette tapes, right?"},{"startTime":273.689,"endTime":274.899,"body":"boom boxes, basically."},{"startTime":275.229,"endTime":276.869,"body":"And then  the Walkman was launched."},{"startTime":277.019,"endTime":278.979,"body":"You could carry in your pocket this thing."},{"startTime":279.229,"endTime":282.539,"body":"You still had to carry all your tapes"},{"startTime":279.229,"endTime":282.539,"body":"with you, but it was very portable."},{"startTime":282.799,"endTime":285.419,"body":"And the market went along with"},{"startTime":282.799,"endTime":285.419,"body":"that for the longest time."},{"startTime":285.419,"endTime":290.289,"body":"You think about all the MP3 players"},{"startTime":285.419,"endTime":290.289,"body":"that ensued right after that."},{"startTime":290.699,"endTime":293.299,"body":"And then the functionality"},{"startTime":290.699,"endTime":293.299,"body":"got absorbed into more of a"},{"startTime":293.299,"endTime":294.789,"body":"general device, the smartphone."},{"startTime":294.849,"endTime":299.439,"body":"So that's an example, of how the"},{"startTime":294.849,"endTime":299.439,"body":"market was developed by using"},{"startTime":299.439,"endTime":302.539,"body":"an initial product, and then the"},{"startTime":299.439,"endTime":302.539,"body":"product was improved upon afterwards."},{"startTime":302.789,"endTime":305.979,"body":"Like there's a few things on this"},{"startTime":302.789,"endTime":305.979,"body":"list market, market development that"},{"startTime":305.979,"endTime":310.149,"body":"should be familiar to someone who's in"},{"startTime":305.979,"endTime":310.149,"body":"this pre market fit crossing the chasm"},{"startTime":310.149,"endTime":314.219,"body":"phase, which is a lot of technical"},{"startTime":310.149,"endTime":314.219,"body":"validation you probably have a lot of"},{"startTime":314.219,"endTime":317.009,"body":"concerns with product stability, cause"},{"startTime":314.219,"endTime":317.009,"body":"you probably got some things that are"},{"startTime":317.439,"endTime":321.539,"body":"duct tape together with string or maybe"},{"startTime":317.439,"endTime":321.539,"body":"you're even before that we haven't built"},{"startTime":321.539,"endTime":327.379,"body":"anything where you've got waiting lists"},{"startTime":321.539,"endTime":327.379,"body":"or it's a sleek websites with promises"},{"startTime":327.379,"endTime":331.279,"body":"of things in the future maybe you have"},{"startTime":327.379,"endTime":331.279,"body":"a, you're running a beta program, like"},{"startTime":331.279,"endTime":336.139,"body":"a little tiny program for I think about"},{"startTime":331.279,"endTime":336.139,"body":"in Large companies you'll have a small"},{"startTime":336.139,"endTime":339.959,"body":"vendor servicing a large company, hoping"},{"startTime":336.139,"endTime":339.959,"body":"to hook the big whale of a customer or"},{"startTime":339.959,"endTime":343.709,"body":"whatever, where they'll be running little"},{"startTime":339.959,"endTime":343.709,"body":"beta programs for individual teams."},{"startTime":343.709,"endTime":346.199,"body":"And if it's successful, they're"},{"startTime":343.709,"endTime":346.199,"body":"hoping that they can like"},{"startTime":346.199,"endTime":347.149,"body":"consultancies are this way."},{"startTime":347.149,"endTime":350.349,"body":"They're hoping they're like, oh, we'll"},{"startTime":347.149,"endTime":350.349,"body":"get in and Get this hook this whale and"},{"startTime":350.349,"endTime":353.659,"body":"then we can have a major consultancy"},{"startTime":350.349,"endTime":353.659,"body":"or whatever, whether it happens or not."},{"startTime":353.699,"endTime":357.359,"body":"it's that kind of feeling is like"},{"startTime":353.699,"endTime":357.359,"body":"we're at the edge of something we"},{"startTime":357.359,"endTime":359.429,"body":"haven't quite found our market fit."},{"startTime":359.679,"endTime":359.939,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":359.939,"endTime":363.929,"body":"I think it's important if you're in"},{"startTime":359.939,"endTime":363.929,"body":"that kind of a space to make sure you"},{"startTime":363.929,"endTime":368.079,"body":"hit the real needs and don't waste your"},{"startTime":363.929,"endTime":368.079,"body":"time on the wishes, wants and desires."},{"startTime":368.109,"endTime":368.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":368.689,"endTime":370.619,"body":"Just so that you can say,"},{"startTime":368.689,"endTime":370.619,"body":"look, we can do this."},{"startTime":370.649,"endTime":373.599,"body":"We can also do some of these"},{"startTime":370.649,"endTime":373.599,"body":"other things later, but your core"},{"startTime":373.599,"endTime":375.599,"body":"functionality can be met with this."},{"startTime":375.849,"endTime":376.219,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":376.369,"endTime":379.469,"body":"It's like small team, many"},{"startTime":376.369,"endTime":379.469,"body":"people wearing many hats."},{"startTime":379.499,"endTime":381.039,"body":"Not scaled at this stage."},{"startTime":381.049,"endTime":382.739,"body":"flat hierarchy in the org."},{"startTime":382.749,"endTime":386.479,"body":"not a lot of like this person's boss and"},{"startTime":382.749,"endTime":386.479,"body":"this skip level that, and this level six,"},{"startTime":386.479,"endTime":388.469,"body":"level eight, that, whatever no, it's not."},{"startTime":388.719,"endTime":391.179,"body":"The small entrepreneurial"},{"startTime":388.719,"endTime":391.179,"body":"companies often start this way."},{"startTime":391.179,"endTime":391.889,"body":"the founder."},{"startTime":392.244,"endTime":395.954,"body":"Rolls up their sleeve and they're coding"},{"startTime":392.244,"endTime":395.954,"body":"as well they're not in some corner office."},{"startTime":396.164,"endTime":401.334,"body":"so you've got a crappy little Service"},{"startTime":396.164,"endTime":401.334,"body":"or product or whatever that's running."},{"startTime":401.644,"endTime":405.779,"body":"It takes manpower to keep it running"},{"startTime":401.644,"endTime":405.779,"body":"like there's not a lot of bet on"},{"startTime":405.829,"endTime":409.939,"body":"architecture or UX refinement,"},{"startTime":405.829,"endTime":409.939,"body":"or you probably don't have a UX"},{"startTime":409.969,"endTime":411.719,"body":"designer or researcher or whatever."},{"startTime":411.719,"endTime":413.739,"body":"Some people might different"},{"startTime":411.719,"endTime":413.739,"body":"podcasts we've talked about the"},{"startTime":413.739,"endTime":416.389,"body":"different profile, you won't have a"},{"startTime":413.739,"endTime":416.389,"body":"dedicated scrum master or whatever."},{"startTime":416.389,"endTime":420.499,"body":"Like people be figuring out there may"},{"startTime":416.389,"endTime":420.499,"body":"nobody's an expert at, and also one"},{"startTime":420.499,"endTime":422.589,"body":"of the things we talked about is when"},{"startTime":420.499,"endTime":422.589,"body":"we moved to the growth stage, I guess"},{"startTime":422.589,"endTime":425.239,"body":"we're moving to the growth stage now"},{"startTime":422.589,"endTime":425.239,"body":"Oh, I wanted to talk about moving."},{"startTime":425.239,"endTime":426.919,"body":"the next stage is the growth stage."},{"startTime":427.019,"endTime":430.619,"body":"We finished talking about the"},{"startTime":427.019,"endTime":430.619,"body":"MVP market development phase."},{"startTime":430.869,"endTime":432.479,"body":"The next phase is a growth phase."},{"startTime":432.729,"endTime":436.119,"body":"we'll talk about the growth phase"},{"startTime":432.729,"endTime":436.119,"body":"and then at the end of the growth"},{"startTime":436.119,"endTime":439.919,"body":"phase category, we'll talk, about"},{"startTime":436.119,"endTime":439.919,"body":"moving from MVP to the growth phase"},{"startTime":440.209,"endTime":443.499,"body":"because there's some things to expect"},{"startTime":440.209,"endTime":443.499,"body":"when you're in that phase for sure."},{"startTime":443.559,"endTime":447.249,"body":"So in the growth phase, this"},{"startTime":443.559,"endTime":447.249,"body":"is when your company starts"},{"startTime":447.249,"endTime":448.129,"body":"blowing up, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":448.129,"endTime":451.359,"body":"When you go from 10, 12 people and be"},{"startTime":448.129,"endTime":451.359,"body":"like, who are all these new people?"},{"startTime":451.359,"endTime":452.479,"body":"And now you're 50 people."},{"startTime":452.479,"endTime":455.759,"body":"And maybe you're 150 people or"},{"startTime":452.479,"endTime":455.759,"body":"whatever over the course of a year"},{"startTime":455.759,"endTime":460.159,"body":"or two years, I mean company I was"},{"startTime":455.759,"endTime":460.159,"body":"at once I started as employee number"},{"startTime":460.209,"endTime":465.479,"body":"32 and I remember when we had the 300"},{"startTime":460.209,"endTime":465.479,"body":"employees and I didn't know everyone"},{"startTime":465.479,"endTime":467.979,"body":"the company Yeah, I just felt lost."},{"startTime":468.009,"endTime":470.929,"body":"I was like what what happened felt"},{"startTime":468.009,"endTime":470.929,"body":"like I didn't know what happened so"},{"startTime":470.929,"endTime":472.539,"body":"quickly Yeah, I was like what happened."},{"startTime":472.739,"endTime":476.494,"body":"I mean, you know product market fit"},{"startTime":472.739,"endTime":476.494,"body":"and and and this growth stage happened"},{"startTime":476.744,"endTime":479.664,"body":"It's a nice problem to have as long"},{"startTime":476.744,"endTime":479.664,"body":"as you're harnessing it properly."},{"startTime":479.704,"endTime":481.474,"body":"Otherwise you're just gonna fester."},{"startTime":481.724,"endTime":485.964,"body":"This is where you have managers"},{"startTime":481.724,"endTime":485.964,"body":"come in because the entrepreneur"},{"startTime":486.194,"endTime":489.464,"body":"himself or herself, they cannot now"},{"startTime":486.194,"endTime":489.464,"body":"work with everybody that's there."},{"startTime":489.504,"endTime":490.574,"body":"It's just way too many people."},{"startTime":490.824,"endTime":494.394,"body":"this is in this growth phase, this is"},{"startTime":490.824,"endTime":494.394,"body":"where we are bringing on additional"},{"startTime":494.394,"endTime":497.964,"body":"teams, or maybe we're trying to do it"},{"startTime":494.394,"endTime":497.964,"body":"slow where we just expand the core team"},{"startTime":497.964,"endTime":502.734,"body":"or like a typical thing that happens at"},{"startTime":497.964,"endTime":502.734,"body":"this stage is the silos begin appearing"},{"startTime":502.934,"endTime":504.114,"body":"and two engineers."},{"startTime":504.344,"endTime":507.474,"body":"Now all the engineers are going"},{"startTime":504.344,"endTime":507.474,"body":"to sit over there and the analyst"},{"startTime":507.474,"endTime":510.494,"body":"is going to sit over here and then"},{"startTime":507.474,"endTime":510.494,"body":"the executives sit with the other"},{"startTime":510.494,"endTime":512.214,"body":"executives and that's their main team."},{"startTime":512.494,"endTime":514.994,"body":"We'll just get somebody to manage the"},{"startTime":512.494,"endTime":514.994,"body":"engineers and throw them over here"},{"startTime":514.994,"endTime":518.414,"body":"and they can figure out  and in the"},{"startTime":514.994,"endTime":518.414,"body":"process, I feel like you lose that"},{"startTime":518.444,"endTime":520.664,"body":"nimbleness that a small company has."},{"startTime":520.674,"endTime":520.994,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":521.054,"endTime":522.814,"body":"You get a lot of inertia creeping in."},{"startTime":523.064,"endTime":526.554,"body":"So what happens in the, that's, so that"},{"startTime":523.064,"endTime":526.554,"body":"stuff is what's happening on the teams."},{"startTime":526.554,"endTime":531.064,"body":"what is happening from a product"},{"startTime":526.554,"endTime":531.064,"body":"perspective at this point of like,"},{"startTime":531.104,"endTime":534.064,"body":"you have rapid development because"},{"startTime":531.104,"endTime":534.064,"body":"you're bringing on more, you're"},{"startTime":534.064,"endTime":535.144,"body":"probably bringing on more people."},{"startTime":535.144,"endTime":537.614,"body":"If you've ever been on a team"},{"startTime":535.144,"endTime":537.614,"body":"where the product person is"},{"startTime":537.614,"endTime":541.704,"body":"expected to feed the development"},{"startTime":537.614,"endTime":541.704,"body":"team with backlog items faster."},{"startTime":541.714,"endTime":542.774,"body":"Like, Oh, you've got to."},{"startTime":543.199,"endTime":546.219,"body":"Give everyone things to work on like"},{"startTime":543.199,"endTime":546.219,"body":"that's this type of like you're in growth"},{"startTime":546.219,"endTime":550.949,"body":"probably in that kind of thing Yeah, and"},{"startTime":546.219,"endTime":550.949,"body":"as far as the product itself what happens"},{"startTime":550.949,"endTime":556.259,"body":"to it is it starts to morph pretty quickly"},{"startTime":550.949,"endTime":556.259,"body":"with Features that go left right up"},{"startTime":556.259,"endTime":558.669,"body":"down You get a lot of stuff added to it."},{"startTime":558.739,"endTime":563.344,"body":"Yeah, and as long as it's added in"},{"startTime":558.739,"endTime":563.344,"body":"a disciplined way That's I guess"},{"startTime":563.344,"endTime":564.614,"body":"that's controlled growth, right?"},{"startTime":564.664,"endTime":566.354,"body":"But often that doesn't happen."},{"startTime":566.374,"endTime":571.094,"body":"Sometimes what happens at this"},{"startTime":566.374,"endTime":571.094,"body":"level is people hear Feedback from"},{"startTime":571.094,"endTime":574.574,"body":"different customers and without"},{"startTime":571.094,"endTime":574.574,"body":"a coordinated effort, they'll say"},{"startTime":574.574,"endTime":575.834,"body":"oh this customer is screaming."},{"startTime":575.984,"endTime":579.374,"body":"We have to have this feature They want"},{"startTime":575.984,"endTime":579.374,"body":"it Added in somebody does the same"},{"startTime":579.374,"endTime":581.044,"body":"thing about another feature added in."},{"startTime":581.044,"endTime":585.054,"body":"So you have, you're growing, but you're"},{"startTime":581.044,"endTime":585.054,"body":"growing a Franken monster at this stage."},{"startTime":585.084,"endTime":585.304,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":585.334,"endTime":588.514,"body":"So, so I'm hearing two things from"},{"startTime":585.334,"endTime":588.514,"body":"what you're saying is number one"},{"startTime":588.564,"endTime":591.494,"body":"like product management probably is"},{"startTime":588.564,"endTime":591.494,"body":"entering the picture at some point."},{"startTime":591.544,"endTime":595.144,"body":"So whereas the founder might have done"},{"startTime":591.544,"endTime":595.144,"body":"prioritization before, maybe they're"},{"startTime":595.144,"endTime":599.164,"body":"swamped by other sales activities or"},{"startTime":595.144,"endTime":599.164,"body":"new markets or new features or their pet"},{"startTime":599.164,"endTime":602.224,"body":"projects, who knows what they're and, and"},{"startTime":599.164,"endTime":602.224,"body":"maybe you're bringing product management."},{"startTime":602.224,"endTime":605.694,"body":"And the other thing is process could"},{"startTime":602.224,"endTime":605.694,"body":"handle it to, to a certain point if"},{"startTime":605.694,"endTime":609.414,"body":"your company's still like, not, I"},{"startTime":605.694,"endTime":609.414,"body":"mean not when you're like 150 people,"},{"startTime":609.414,"endTime":612.534,"body":"process is not gonna handle that,"},{"startTime":609.414,"endTime":612.534,"body":"but process could handle it if you're"},{"startTime":612.984,"endTime":617.534,"body":"looking to say, well it used to be"},{"startTime":612.984,"endTime":617.534,"body":"the founder and the entire team that"},{"startTime":617.534,"endTime":621.404,"body":"went to all the demos and went pitched"},{"startTime":617.534,"endTime":621.404,"body":"to all the new sales and did all the"},{"startTime":621.404,"endTime":623.024,"body":"implementations and did their own stunts."},{"startTime":623.424,"endTime":623.694,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":623.714,"endTime":627.224,"body":"But now the engineers they're"},{"startTime":623.714,"endTime":627.224,"body":"talking to customers less and less"},{"startTime":627.544,"endTime":629.964,"body":"because they're stressed to get all"},{"startTime":627.544,"endTime":629.964,"body":"these deadlines out and whatever."},{"startTime":629.964,"endTime":633.934,"body":"And now we're struggling to get"},{"startTime":629.964,"endTime":633.934,"body":"feedback, whereas before, like we"},{"startTime":633.934,"endTime":637.224,"body":"couldn't, we couldn't, like it was"},{"startTime":633.934,"endTime":637.224,"body":"just built into the system of we were"},{"startTime":637.224,"endTime":637.954,"body":"always talking to these customers."},{"startTime":637.954,"endTime":642.414,"body":"So like now where there's this subtle"},{"startTime":637.954,"endTime":642.414,"body":"divorcing from talking to customers"},{"startTime":642.434,"endTime":644.124,"body":"all the time, and now we're seeking."},{"startTime":644.374,"endTime":647.844,"body":"So we're getting it from whoever is going"},{"startTime":644.374,"endTime":647.844,"body":"to give it to well Gary from sales told"},{"startTime":647.844,"endTime":649.104,"body":"us this is what the customer needed."},{"startTime":649.104,"endTime":650.724,"body":"So we did it as a higher priority."},{"startTime":651.109,"endTime":653.929,"body":"Now product comes in because sales"},{"startTime":651.109,"endTime":653.929,"body":"is fighting with the executives and"},{"startTime":654.299,"endTime":655.539,"body":"development's fighting with everyone."},{"startTime":655.539,"endTime":656.799,"body":"And I think you're right."},{"startTime":656.799,"endTime":660.029,"body":"Fully said that maybe the entrepreneurs"},{"startTime":656.799,"endTime":660.029,"body":"now occupy trying to get funding"},{"startTime":660.089,"endTime":661.229,"body":"to keep the company growing."},{"startTime":661.649,"endTime":664.269,"body":"This is where I think at this"},{"startTime":661.649,"endTime":664.269,"body":"stage is where you get the"},{"startTime":664.279,"endTime":666.059,"body":"squeaky wheel syndrome coming in."},{"startTime":666.059,"endTime":666.319,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":666.509,"endTime":670.099,"body":"Whoever says something loudest,"},{"startTime":666.509,"endTime":670.099,"body":"they get the feature in, right."},{"startTime":670.119,"endTime":672.679,"body":"Well, they have their"},{"startTime":670.119,"endTime":672.679,"body":"way and on, on you go."},{"startTime":672.929,"endTime":674.879,"body":"The other thing that"},{"startTime":672.929,"endTime":674.879,"body":"happens at this stage is."},{"startTime":675.129,"endTime":678.639,"body":"You've got a few customers, whether"},{"startTime":675.129,"endTime":678.639,"body":"they're still pilot, whatever you"},{"startTime":678.639,"endTime":681.069,"body":"have, you have a few customers"},{"startTime":678.639,"endTime":681.069,"body":"by the stage you're growing."},{"startTime":681.129,"endTime":681.279,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":681.619,"endTime":685.349,"body":"So  you've kind of reached escape"},{"startTime":681.619,"endTime":685.349,"body":"velocity when it comes to product mindset."},{"startTime":685.379,"endTime":686.879,"body":"This is the right product to build, right?"},{"startTime":686.909,"endTime":687.209,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":687.209,"endTime":688.649,"body":"There is a market, right."},{"startTime":688.649,"endTime":689.519,"body":"We know we're doing."},{"startTime":689.849,"endTime":692.979,"body":"And those customers that you"},{"startTime":689.849,"endTime":692.979,"body":"have, that you garnered so"},{"startTime":692.979,"endTime":695.469,"body":"far need to be taken care of."},{"startTime":695.524,"endTime":698.734,"body":"So your team is now going to be split."},{"startTime":699.169,"endTime":702.499,"body":"You may have a function"},{"startTime":699.169,"endTime":702.499,"body":"called support, right?"},{"startTime":702.499,"endTime":703.619,"body":"Customer support, whatever."},{"startTime":703.939,"endTime":708.159,"body":"So now you're starting to break away"},{"startTime":703.939,"endTime":708.159,"body":"from the model where the team that built"},{"startTime":708.159,"endTime":712.909,"body":"it, ran it, and now it's some other"},{"startTime":708.159,"endTime":712.909,"body":"people that are supporting that, right?"},{"startTime":712.939,"endTime":713.399,"body":"Oh Yeah."},{"startTime":713.399,"endTime":714.049,"body":"I could see that."},{"startTime":714.269,"endTime":716.529,"body":"I could see that, which is like,"},{"startTime":714.269,"endTime":716.529,"body":"I completely understand it,"},{"startTime":716.679,"endTime":718.139,"body":"although I don't believe in it."},{"startTime":718.139,"endTime":720.209,"body":"I believe in you build it, you"},{"startTime":718.139,"endTime":720.209,"body":"own it the other thing that could"},{"startTime":720.219,"endTime":723.639,"body":"happen is you don't put anything"},{"startTime":720.219,"endTime":723.639,"body":"in place for those support people."},{"startTime":723.639,"endTime":726.369,"body":"And it's just like somebody running"},{"startTime":723.639,"endTime":726.369,"body":"around with their hair on fire full time."},{"startTime":726.419,"endTime":729.339,"body":"it's like customer support"},{"startTime":726.419,"endTime":729.339,"body":"becomes someone's job rather"},{"startTime":729.339,"endTime":730.609,"body":"than a function of the business."},{"startTime":730.889,"endTime":732.419,"body":"I guess I could see what you're saying."},{"startTime":732.739,"endTime":735.939,"body":"But only implemented in the worst way that"},{"startTime":732.739,"endTime":735.939,"body":"I could possibly think to implement it."},{"startTime":735.939,"endTime":736.279,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":736.279,"endTime":738.289,"body":"But again, I'm sure you can"},{"startTime":736.279,"endTime":738.289,"body":"think of people that I've"},{"startTime":738.289,"endTime":739.379,"body":"known that have done that job."},{"startTime":739.379,"endTime":741.489,"body":"They basically, they're"},{"startTime":739.379,"endTime":741.489,"body":"not armed with any tools."},{"startTime":741.569,"endTime":741.779,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":741.809,"endTime":744.789,"body":"And the road map is devoid of"},{"startTime":741.809,"endTime":744.789,"body":"anything that's going to help them."},{"startTime":744.949,"endTime":748.629,"body":"Like, we're just thinking about landing"},{"startTime":744.949,"endTime":748.629,"body":"new sales and implementing new features"},{"startTime":748.669,"endTime":750.019,"body":"that will bring new customers in."},{"startTime":750.469,"endTime":754.289,"body":"It is not about stabilizing the system"},{"startTime":750.469,"endTime":754.289,"body":"technical debt is rampant at this point."},{"startTime":754.539,"endTime":757.939,"body":"Technical debt meaning you're"},{"startTime":754.539,"endTime":757.939,"body":"crushing your development team"},{"startTime":758.189,"endTime":761.559,"body":"to keep the system running while"},{"startTime":758.189,"endTime":761.559,"body":"everyone else is out there, you know."},{"startTime":762.009,"endTime":764.699,"body":"Like, have you ever been in a company"},{"startTime":762.009,"endTime":764.699,"body":"where they're running out and hiring"},{"startTime":764.699,"endTime":766.189,"body":"salespeople left and right, right?"},{"startTime":766.499,"endTime":770.119,"body":"Well, this is exactly the stage"},{"startTime":766.499,"endTime":770.119,"body":"at which now people's, executives"},{"startTime":770.119,"endTime":773.309,"body":"eyes are now on you know, launching"},{"startTime":770.119,"endTime":773.309,"body":"the company on the market, right?"},{"startTime":773.309,"endTime":776.379,"body":"So, you have to have some"},{"startTime":773.309,"endTime":776.379,"body":"kind of capitalization before"},{"startTime":776.379,"endTime":777.899,"body":"you can float the company."},{"startTime":777.909,"endTime":779.719,"body":"That's what you're doing,"},{"startTime":777.909,"endTime":779.719,"body":"is your salespeople are"},{"startTime":779.719,"endTime":781.674,"body":"incentivized to Book orders."},{"startTime":781.734,"endTime":786.344,"body":"Yeah So not a lot of automation in"},{"startTime":781.734,"endTime":786.344,"body":"this phase or do you think automation"},{"startTime":786.344,"endTime":789.274,"body":"like where do you think like qa would"},{"startTime":786.344,"endTime":789.274,"body":"enter you think like You'll hire"},{"startTime":789.274,"endTime":793.514,"body":"like your one token QA person at"},{"startTime":789.274,"endTime":793.514,"body":"this point in the, in the company."},{"startTime":793.524,"endTime":796.354,"body":"Like, yeah, I think it depends on"},{"startTime":793.524,"endTime":796.354,"body":"the rate at which you're expanding."},{"startTime":796.354,"endTime":800.824,"body":"So if you're expanding at a rapid"},{"startTime":796.354,"endTime":800.824,"body":"pace, you may hire more than one."},{"startTime":800.964,"endTime":804.504,"body":"But yeah, typically this is where"},{"startTime":800.964,"endTime":804.504,"body":"the QA function is spawned, right."},{"startTime":804.534,"endTime":808.824,"body":"In the company, because you've"},{"startTime":804.534,"endTime":808.824,"body":"got people that are just busy"},{"startTime":808.894,"endTime":810.314,"body":"building features everywhere."},{"startTime":810.634,"endTime":813.794,"body":"And bad quality stuff is"},{"startTime":810.634,"endTime":813.794,"body":"now going out the door."},{"startTime":814.074,"endTime":818.224,"body":"The customers aren't happy, so it's more"},{"startTime":814.074,"endTime":818.224,"body":"of a reaction, typically, rather than a"},{"startTime":818.254,"endTime":822.574,"body":"proactive, here's how we're going to do"},{"startTime":818.254,"endTime":822.574,"body":"this, we'll inspect for quality, you know."},{"startTime":822.944,"endTime":827.004,"body":"As we, as we're building it, right, as"},{"startTime":822.944,"endTime":827.004,"body":"opposed to, we'll wait until it's needed."},{"startTime":827.454,"endTime":829.904,"body":"So there's team scaling,"},{"startTime":827.454,"endTime":829.904,"body":"there's infrastructure scaling,"},{"startTime":829.904,"endTime":832.914,"body":"there's like a massive amount of"},{"startTime":829.904,"endTime":832.914,"body":"feature development happening."},{"startTime":833.164,"endTime":836.294,"body":"Potentially an equal massive amount"},{"startTime":833.164,"endTime":836.294,"body":"of technical debt being taken"},{"startTime":836.294,"endTime":837.704,"body":"on, and That's another thing."},{"startTime":837.764,"endTime":841.054,"body":"Technical Debt takes a back shelf because"},{"startTime":837.764,"endTime":841.054,"body":"you want these features out quick."},{"startTime":841.504,"endTime":844.454,"body":"the other thing that happens here"},{"startTime":841.504,"endTime":844.454,"body":"is somebody might actually start"},{"startTime":844.474,"endTime":845.734,"body":"watching metrics at this point."},{"startTime":845.734,"endTime":849.054,"body":"If they weren't in the first phase,"},{"startTime":845.734,"endTime":849.054,"body":"they might actually start doing"},{"startTime":849.054,"endTime":853.554,"body":"it now watching metrics cause that"},{"startTime":849.054,"endTime":853.554,"body":"like,  managing mature product lines"},{"startTime":853.614,"endTime":856.764,"body":"where you're kind of deciding where"},{"startTime":853.614,"endTime":856.764,"body":"to put your development dollars."},{"startTime":857.224,"endTime":860.174,"body":"And I'm not going to put my development"},{"startTime":857.224,"endTime":860.174,"body":"dollars into features that nobody's using."},{"startTime":860.614,"endTime":864.954,"body":"And I might decide to just cut"},{"startTime":860.614,"endTime":864.954,"body":"features that nobody uses,  that"},{"startTime":865.084,"endTime":866.174,"body":"is not the conversation."},{"startTime":866.174,"endTime":868.354,"body":"I don't feel in this phase"},{"startTime":866.174,"endTime":868.354,"body":"that's going to happen."},{"startTime":868.574,"endTime":870.354,"body":"You know, it's too early"},{"startTime":868.574,"endTime":870.354,"body":"for that right now."},{"startTime":870.604,"endTime":870.924,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":870.924,"endTime":872.944,"body":"So we said we'd come back to it."},{"startTime":873.194,"endTime":875.754,"body":"We moving from the MVP phase."},{"startTime":876.139,"endTime":877.239,"body":"To the growth phase."},{"startTime":877.489,"endTime":882.119,"body":"So we already talked a little bit"},{"startTime":877.489,"endTime":882.119,"body":"about shifting from stability of"},{"startTime":882.119,"endTime":885.859,"body":"your core product, whatever it"},{"startTime":882.119,"endTime":885.859,"body":"is your core feature, whatever it"},{"startTime":885.859,"endTime":887.829,"body":"or features, I guess, to scaling."},{"startTime":888.299,"endTime":890.349,"body":"You know, supporting more users and scale."},{"startTime":890.349,"endTime":895.249,"body":"We talked about maybe now the QA person"},{"startTime":890.349,"endTime":895.249,"body":"might get hired or somebody might get"},{"startTime":895.249,"endTime":896.699,"body":"put in charge of, some kind of process."},{"startTime":896.959,"endTime":897.139,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":897.239,"endTime":900.119,"body":"Along with those processes will come"},{"startTime":897.239,"endTime":900.119,"body":"the metrics you referred to earlier."},{"startTime":900.199,"endTime":902.339,"body":"And maybe now a product manager"},{"startTime":900.199,"endTime":902.339,"body":"might join the company for the"},{"startTime":902.339,"endTime":903.519,"body":"first time if they weren't."},{"startTime":903.764,"endTime":906.584,"body":"A founder, or somebody wasn't"},{"startTime":903.764,"endTime":906.584,"body":"playing the role, somebody was"},{"startTime":906.584,"endTime":907.594,"body":"playing the role, certainly."},{"startTime":907.794,"endTime":908.164,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":908.334,"endTime":909.884,"body":"So you're now formalizing more."},{"startTime":909.944,"endTime":913.384,"body":"You're thinking about those systems"},{"startTime":909.944,"endTime":913.384,"body":"that you can integrate with now,"},{"startTime":913.774,"endTime":915.374,"body":"right, as you're moving forward."},{"startTime":915.374,"endTime":916.284,"body":"To the next phase."},{"startTime":916.464,"endTime":919.484,"body":"when they start the company,"},{"startTime":916.464,"endTime":919.484,"body":"systems integration, like system"},{"startTime":919.514,"endTime":922.454,"body":"thinking would be top of mind,"},{"startTime":919.514,"endTime":922.454,"body":"because everything is so small."},{"startTime":922.704,"endTime":925.584,"body":"But it does make sense, like as"},{"startTime":922.704,"endTime":925.584,"body":"more features grow and the system"},{"startTime":925.584,"endTime":929.034,"body":"gets more technical, like any one"},{"startTime":925.584,"endTime":929.034,"body":"person's starting to lose focus"},{"startTime":929.034,"endTime":930.774,"body":"of what the whole thing does."},{"startTime":931.024,"endTime":931.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":931.084,"endTime":934.244,"body":"This might be the first time"},{"startTime":931.084,"endTime":934.244,"body":"that the company starts hammering"},{"startTime":934.284,"endTime":936.504,"body":"things like capacity planning."},{"startTime":936.584,"endTime":936.914,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":937.274,"endTime":939.514,"body":"You know, ask for timelines"},{"startTime":937.274,"endTime":939.514,"body":"and stuff like that."},{"startTime":939.534,"endTime":940.894,"body":"this might happen in this phase too."},{"startTime":941.064,"endTime":942.704,"body":"Depending on the people that you have."},{"startTime":942.704,"endTime":945.944,"body":"Again, that goes back I"},{"startTime":942.704,"endTime":945.944,"body":"think to the metrics issue."},{"startTime":946.194,"endTime":947.494,"body":"Are people busy?"},{"startTime":947.494,"endTime":949.024,"body":"Are we keeping, keeping them busy?"},{"startTime":949.064,"endTime":949.334,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":949.394,"endTime":950.794,"body":"Measure their utilization."},{"startTime":951.044,"endTime":952.344,"body":"All right, let's move on."},{"startTime":952.594,"endTime":957.614,"body":"Let's move on to the, the tippy"},{"startTime":952.594,"endTime":957.614,"body":"top of the curve, the beginning of"},{"startTime":957.684,"endTime":962.434,"body":"potential beginning of decline, the"},{"startTime":957.684,"endTime":962.434,"body":"flattening off phase called maturity."},{"startTime":962.684,"endTime":966.904,"body":"So maturity is still really"},{"startTime":962.684,"endTime":966.904,"body":"not necessarily a flattening."},{"startTime":966.914,"endTime":969.974,"body":"It's just not a rapid"},{"startTime":966.914,"endTime":969.974,"body":"rise as it was before."},{"startTime":970.344,"endTime":971.074,"body":"It could still be a rise."},{"startTime":971.084,"endTime":971.734,"body":"Yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":971.784,"endTime":974.854,"body":"I think this is the phase"},{"startTime":971.784,"endTime":974.854,"body":"where you start thinking about"},{"startTime":975.104,"endTime":976.974,"body":"optimizing how you're building."},{"startTime":976.994,"endTime":979.634,"body":"So things like automation kick in, right?"},{"startTime":979.884,"endTime":983.684,"body":"The more automation you put in,"},{"startTime":979.884,"endTime":983.684,"body":"the quicker you can get to market"},{"startTime":983.884,"endTime":986.034,"body":"with things out of development."},{"startTime":986.284,"endTime":990.124,"body":"The other thing that happens here is,"},{"startTime":986.284,"endTime":990.124,"body":"you've learned now, so you've had lots of"},{"startTime":990.124,"endTime":995.124,"body":"feedback cycles from customers, and you"},{"startTime":990.124,"endTime":995.124,"body":"might start thinking about potentially"},{"startTime":995.374,"endTime":999.434,"body":"looking at things that are being asked"},{"startTime":995.374,"endTime":999.434,"body":"for and say, Do we really need to keep"},{"startTime":999.854,"endTime":1004.199,"body":"putting those on the bolting it on here"},{"startTime":999.854,"endTime":1004.199,"body":"or do we need to Carve out a different"},{"startTime":1004.199,"endTime":1005.989,"body":"product that we can migrate people to."},{"startTime":1005.989,"endTime":1008.779,"body":"So that thinking starts to"},{"startTime":1005.989,"endTime":1008.779,"body":"happen, I think, right now."},{"startTime":1008.819,"endTime":1012.969,"body":"That is interesting because I have seen"},{"startTime":1008.819,"endTime":1012.969,"body":"larger companies that have like their"},{"startTime":1012.969,"endTime":1015.779,"body":"I don't know what they call it, they"},{"startTime":1012.969,"endTime":1015.779,"body":"call it like an R\u0026 D unit, or like an"},{"startTime":1015.789,"endTime":1017.219,"body":"R\u0026 D department or section or something."},{"startTime":1017.429,"endTime":1021.099,"body":"Like basically R\u0026 D is not done by the"},{"startTime":1017.429,"endTime":1021.099,"body":"main teams that maintain the applications."},{"startTime":1021.099,"endTime":1025.439,"body":"The product teams that are maintaining"},{"startTime":1021.099,"endTime":1025.439,"body":"the applications or applicant"},{"startTime":1025.669,"endTime":1027.829,"body":"programs, whatever, in maturity state."},{"startTime":1028.254,"endTime":1031.824,"body":"They're not asked to do this, like"},{"startTime":1028.254,"endTime":1031.824,"body":"Hey, this small subset of your features"},{"startTime":1031.824,"endTime":1035.064,"body":"and see if it could survive in its"},{"startTime":1031.824,"endTime":1035.064,"body":"own product, in a different market"},{"startTime":1035.524,"endTime":1039.574,"body":"with a sexy new UI or UX, right?"},{"startTime":1039.764,"endTime":1042.814,"body":"Like that, that they're not"},{"startTime":1039.764,"endTime":1042.814,"body":"asking this team to do that."},{"startTime":1042.834,"endTime":1046.514,"body":"They're going to go get a different"},{"startTime":1042.834,"endTime":1046.514,"body":"team to go  back to The MVP phase."},{"startTime":1046.764,"endTime":1050.014,"body":"Even though  what the innovation team"},{"startTime":1046.764,"endTime":1050.014,"body":"might be doing is they might be trying"},{"startTime":1050.014,"endTime":1054.374,"body":"to cannibalize the product because they"},{"startTime":1050.014,"endTime":1054.374,"body":"know that it's in maturity, the business"},{"startTime":1054.374,"endTime":1057.824,"body":"knows it's in maturity, and they're"},{"startTime":1054.374,"endTime":1057.824,"body":"looking to leapfrog their own product."},{"startTime":1058.074,"endTime":1058.764,"body":"To the future."},{"startTime":1058.894,"endTime":1060.864,"body":"I've heard him call skunkworks as well."},{"startTime":1060.864,"endTime":1063.004,"body":"Yeah, but yeah, you're absolutely correct."},{"startTime":1063.274,"endTime":1068.304,"body":"So this is where sometimes though the"},{"startTime":1063.274,"endTime":1068.304,"body":"underpinning of this isn't just along the"},{"startTime":1068.304,"endTime":1072.034,"body":"lines of product thinking, It might be"},{"startTime":1068.304,"endTime":1072.034,"body":"predicated on technology changes, right?"},{"startTime":1072.094,"endTime":1076.314,"body":"So all your stuff was done in, I don't"},{"startTime":1072.094,"endTime":1076.314,"body":"know, visual basic, and now you've"},{"startTime":1076.314,"endTime":1077.634,"body":"got to move to another technology."},{"startTime":1078.024,"endTime":1080.954,"body":"So you might say, well, do we"},{"startTime":1078.024,"endTime":1080.954,"body":"want to just rewrite or just"},{"startTime":1080.954,"endTime":1081.984,"body":"write, develop a new program?"},{"startTime":1081.984,"endTime":1085.604,"body":"I mean, like, if you're doing like"},{"startTime":1081.984,"endTime":1085.604,"body":"automation activities or like back"},{"startTime":1085.604,"endTime":1088.494,"body":"of the house functions maybe a"},{"startTime":1085.604,"endTime":1088.494,"body":"lot of your automation is written"},{"startTime":1088.494,"endTime":1090.644,"body":"in Python two x or whatever."},{"startTime":1090.644,"endTime":1090.734,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1090.994,"endTime":1092.284,"body":"I was doing volunteer work."},{"startTime":1092.524,"endTime":1098.824,"body":"Where I was the developer and their"},{"startTime":1092.524,"endTime":1098.824,"body":"application was written in PHP 5"},{"startTime":1099.074,"endTime":1100.884,"body":"and I had to upgrade them to PHP 7."},{"startTime":1101.134,"endTime":1104.684,"body":"And if you ever go through the PHP"},{"startTime":1101.134,"endTime":1104.684,"body":"5 to 7 transition, one of the things"},{"startTime":1104.694,"endTime":1109.594,"body":"that they changed between 5 and 7"},{"startTime":1104.694,"endTime":1109.594,"body":"is how you connect to the database."},{"startTime":1109.844,"endTime":1113.414,"body":"Which is pretty critical if you're on"},{"startTime":1109.844,"endTime":1113.414,"body":"the LAMP stack, because the M is MySQL,"},{"startTime":1113.464,"endTime":1116.684,"body":"if you want your web application to keep"},{"startTime":1113.464,"endTime":1116.684,"body":"talking to the database, which I assume"},{"startTime":1116.684,"endTime":1120.774,"body":"you do, then you must upgrade your code."},{"startTime":1120.854,"endTime":1121.684,"body":"Why do that?"},{"startTime":1121.874,"endTime":1126.044,"body":"Just stay on five forever, because you're"},{"startTime":1121.874,"endTime":1126.044,"body":"not planning to implement any hot new"},{"startTime":1126.054,"endTime":1130.794,"body":"features or whatever maybe if enough big"},{"startTime":1126.054,"endTime":1130.794,"body":"security issues crop up, maybe that would"},{"startTime":1130.794,"endTime":1135.354,"body":"push you into a one time investment just"},{"startTime":1130.794,"endTime":1135.354,"body":"to get you over that stack, but that"},{"startTime":1135.364,"endTime":1139.554,"body":"volunteer effort, I mean, they really"},{"startTime":1135.364,"endTime":1139.554,"body":"had a tough time deciding to put all"},{"startTime":1139.554,"endTime":1143.114,"body":"that manpower into going from five to"},{"startTime":1139.554,"endTime":1143.114,"body":"seven Because there was no money in it."},{"startTime":1143.164,"endTime":1145.424,"body":"It was just a bunch of maintenance"},{"startTime":1143.164,"endTime":1145.424,"body":"work and a bunch of hours"},{"startTime":1145.424,"endTime":1148.374,"body":"and they weren't going to get"},{"startTime":1145.424,"endTime":1148.374,"body":"anything because they wouldn't get"},{"startTime":1148.374,"endTime":1149.314,"body":"anything on the other side of it."},{"startTime":1149.314,"endTime":1151.884,"body":"And you might hear that and be like,"},{"startTime":1149.314,"endTime":1151.884,"body":"yeah, but then they can't even work on it."},{"startTime":1151.884,"endTime":1154.334,"body":"I mean, first of all, yes, you"},{"startTime":1151.884,"endTime":1154.334,"body":"can work on an older version of"},{"startTime":1154.334,"endTime":1155.844,"body":"PHP and still develop features."},{"startTime":1156.144,"endTime":1156.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1156.314,"endTime":1157.374,"body":"You can't use newer stuff."},{"startTime":1157.374,"endTime":1157.824,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":1158.074,"endTime":1160.794,"body":"They kind of hemmed and hawed over"},{"startTime":1158.074,"endTime":1160.794,"body":"it because they were going to leave"},{"startTime":1160.794,"endTime":1164.454,"body":"that product in the maturity stage"},{"startTime":1160.794,"endTime":1164.454,"body":"until people stopped using it and then"},{"startTime":1164.554,"endTime":1168.224,"body":"sunset it over time and then just maybe"},{"startTime":1164.554,"endTime":1168.224,"body":"build a whole new application with"},{"startTime":1168.224,"endTime":1169.954,"body":"whatever new technology is out there."},{"startTime":1169.954,"endTime":1173.814,"body":"So they just had no, they were going"},{"startTime":1169.954,"endTime":1173.814,"body":"to keep taking in money from that"},{"startTime":1173.814,"endTime":1175.524,"body":"application or whatever it was used for."},{"startTime":1175.524,"endTime":1176.774,"body":"I don't think they took in money for it."},{"startTime":1176.834,"endTime":1181.274,"body":"Didn't bring them new money to extend that"},{"startTime":1176.834,"endTime":1181.274,"body":"site and work on it to add new features."},{"startTime":1181.304,"endTime":1183.814,"body":"They had all the features they"},{"startTime":1181.304,"endTime":1183.814,"body":"ever needed to manage the business."},{"startTime":1184.064,"endTime":1185.234,"body":"They didn't need new features."},{"startTime":1185.554,"endTime":1188.124,"body":"So from their perspective, they"},{"startTime":1185.554,"endTime":1188.124,"body":"had a tough time being like, why"},{"startTime":1188.134,"endTime":1190.184,"body":"would we upgrade the infrastructure?"},{"startTime":1190.504,"endTime":1195.424,"body":"So like the, what doesn't happen in this"},{"startTime":1190.504,"endTime":1195.424,"body":"maturity stage, like massive architectural"},{"startTime":1195.534,"endTime":1200.024,"body":"plan, replanning, refactoring, technical"},{"startTime":1195.534,"endTime":1200.024,"body":"debt, this is kind of re you know,"},{"startTime":1200.034,"endTime":1205.224,"body":"balancing and mitigation that kind of like"},{"startTime":1200.034,"endTime":1205.224,"body":"not gonna have like large scale rewrites"},{"startTime":1205.234,"endTime":1209.734,"body":"There's also a sort of almost sneaky"},{"startTime":1205.234,"endTime":1209.734,"body":"product strategy where new features"},{"startTime":1209.734,"endTime":1213.564,"body":"that are being asked for can be"},{"startTime":1209.734,"endTime":1213.564,"body":"promised, but not on this platform."},{"startTime":1213.564,"endTime":1213.854,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1214.144,"endTime":1217.284,"body":"So you'd say, well, we deliver all of"},{"startTime":1214.144,"endTime":1217.284,"body":"those things, but you got to upgrade."},{"startTime":1217.544,"endTime":1217.814,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1217.954,"endTime":1220.894,"body":"Which I think I've seen that"},{"startTime":1217.954,"endTime":1220.894,"body":"used successfully elsewhere too."},{"startTime":1221.144,"endTime":1223.944,"body":"You could put those features"},{"startTime":1221.144,"endTime":1223.944,"body":"in the current version and"},{"startTime":1223.944,"endTime":1225.504,"body":"prolong that growth stage."},{"startTime":1225.794,"endTime":1229.824,"body":"But you're already getting maintenance"},{"startTime":1225.794,"endTime":1229.824,"body":"dollars from these customers right?"},{"startTime":1229.874,"endTime":1233.574,"body":"If the maintenance agreements are"},{"startTime":1229.874,"endTime":1233.574,"body":"signed up such that you locked in"},{"startTime":1233.574,"endTime":1235.624,"body":"the customer for three years, right?"},{"startTime":1235.624,"endTime":1236.364,"body":"They get a discount."},{"startTime":1236.734,"endTime":1238.154,"body":"The longer term they sign up."},{"startTime":1238.404,"endTime":1239.574,"body":"You can keep them going."},{"startTime":1239.894,"endTime":1242.294,"body":"But at the same time, they"},{"startTime":1239.894,"endTime":1242.294,"body":"want these new features."},{"startTime":1242.404,"endTime":1245.284,"body":"And you don't want to spend time"},{"startTime":1242.404,"endTime":1245.284,"body":"developing on the older stuff."},{"startTime":1245.684,"endTime":1249.304,"body":"So you could start building"},{"startTime":1245.684,"endTime":1249.304,"body":"a replacement product, right?"},{"startTime":1249.324,"endTime":1254.194,"body":"And put those features in there, do the"},{"startTime":1249.324,"endTime":1254.194,"body":"demos and so forth and get your customers"},{"startTime":1254.194,"endTime":1256.649,"body":"to Plant a transition to the new system."},{"startTime":1256.679,"endTime":1259.029,"body":"Yeah, I've actually done"},{"startTime":1256.679,"endTime":1259.029,"body":"this in product management."},{"startTime":1259.119,"endTime":1260.609,"body":"at least two companies that I've been at."},{"startTime":1260.659,"endTime":1264.459,"body":"what the case I will make is don't do"},{"startTime":1260.659,"endTime":1264.459,"body":"whatever your whatever enhancements,"},{"startTime":1264.459,"endTime":1267.609,"body":"sometimes enhancements need to"},{"startTime":1264.459,"endTime":1267.609,"body":"be done to a system in maturity"},{"startTime":1267.639,"endTime":1270.249,"body":"because they want to get one more"},{"startTime":1267.639,"endTime":1270.249,"body":"customer or whether the company needs"},{"startTime":1270.249,"endTime":1272.889,"body":"to get one more fix or whatever,"},{"startTime":1270.249,"endTime":1272.889,"body":"one more hurrah out of it anyway."},{"startTime":1272.889,"endTime":1273.069,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1273.089,"endTime":1277.769,"body":"What I plan to do is to stand up some"},{"startTime":1273.089,"endTime":1277.769,"body":"kind of technology that runs alongside"},{"startTime":1277.769,"endTime":1283.629,"body":"this and then to basically deactivate"},{"startTime":1277.769,"endTime":1283.629,"body":"certain features of the system that's"},{"startTime":1283.629,"endTime":1287.619,"body":"in the maturity stage and build them"},{"startTime":1283.629,"endTime":1287.619,"body":"up new in this other side by side."},{"startTime":1287.619,"endTime":1289.449,"body":"In mobile development, for example."},{"startTime":1289.609,"endTime":1292.899,"body":"There is an API that services"},{"startTime":1289.609,"endTime":1292.899,"body":"the mobile application."},{"startTime":1292.909,"endTime":1297.129,"body":"And when you go and scan, for example,"},{"startTime":1292.909,"endTime":1297.129,"body":"like you, you'll go open your mobile"},{"startTime":1297.129,"endTime":1300.519,"body":"app, you'll scan a document, and then"},{"startTime":1297.129,"endTime":1300.519,"body":"when you're done scanning document, you"},{"startTime":1300.519,"endTime":1303.359,"body":"submit the document to this web endpoint."},{"startTime":1303.639,"endTime":1303.929,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1304.179,"endTime":1307.989,"body":"When you're calling the endpoint you're"},{"startTime":1304.179,"endTime":1307.989,"body":"calling, basically we could, we could"},{"startTime":1307.989,"endTime":1311.419,"body":"say, well, for this function, you don't"},{"startTime":1307.989,"endTime":1311.419,"body":"call the endpoint in the old software."},{"startTime":1311.824,"endTime":1314.174,"body":"You call the endpoint in the"},{"startTime":1311.824,"endTime":1314.174,"body":"new software that's over here."},{"startTime":1314.404,"endTime":1317.614,"body":"And since we only had to recreate"},{"startTime":1314.404,"endTime":1317.614,"body":"one single little tiny endpoint for"},{"startTime":1317.614,"endTime":1320.854,"body":"saving this document, not all the"},{"startTime":1317.614,"endTime":1320.854,"body":"rest of the stuff that pull, they all,"},{"startTime":1321.004,"endTime":1322.434,"body":"both systems go to the same database."},{"startTime":1322.444,"endTime":1322.824,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1323.244,"endTime":1328.024,"body":"But The new backend for that API is"},{"startTime":1323.244,"endTime":1328.024,"body":"over here in this new tiny little"},{"startTime":1328.024,"endTime":1331.394,"body":"lightweight system that we built"},{"startTime":1328.024,"endTime":1331.394,"body":"with this new functionality rather"},{"startTime":1331.394,"endTime":1332.664,"body":"than as part of the monolith."},{"startTime":1332.909,"endTime":1335.879,"body":"That's deployed over here and  the"},{"startTime":1332.909,"endTime":1335.879,"body":"user doesn't know that they're really"},{"startTime":1335.879,"endTime":1337.149,"body":"talking to two separate systems."},{"startTime":1337.239,"endTime":1339.609,"body":"They don't, but you could also"},{"startTime":1337.239,"endTime":1339.609,"body":"use that to your advantage."},{"startTime":1339.609,"endTime":1344.049,"body":"If you can offer even a slight benefit"},{"startTime":1339.609,"endTime":1344.049,"body":"of going to the new endpoint, let's"},{"startTime":1344.049,"endTime":1346.369,"body":"say performance is quicker, right?"},{"startTime":1346.799,"endTime":1350.689,"body":"It kind of helps you get the"},{"startTime":1346.799,"endTime":1350.689,"body":"thinking in that user that."},{"startTime":1350.939,"endTime":1352.519,"body":"Everything's better in the new system."},{"startTime":1352.609,"endTime":1354.509,"body":"So plan to upgrade basically."},{"startTime":1354.509,"endTime":1356.689,"body":"Look, even this thing that used"},{"startTime":1354.509,"endTime":1356.689,"body":"to take three seconds is now"},{"startTime":1356.689,"endTime":1358.149,"body":"only taking a sub second, right."},{"startTime":1358.179,"endTime":1358.639,"body":"Or whatever."},{"startTime":1359.019,"endTime":1362.289,"body":"So yeah, as a product person,"},{"startTime":1359.019,"endTime":1362.289,"body":"you can, you can do that."},{"startTime":1362.539,"endTime":1366.069,"body":"But yeah, well, what you can do is"},{"startTime":1362.539,"endTime":1366.069,"body":"you can't get large scale rewrites."},{"startTime":1366.069,"endTime":1368.579,"body":"You're not going to get Oh, we're going"},{"startTime":1366.069,"endTime":1368.579,"body":"to break apart the monolith or whatever"},{"startTime":1368.579,"endTime":1373.369,"body":"you're going to get a, a keep the lights"},{"startTime":1368.579,"endTime":1373.369,"body":"on attitude of, Oh, you know how I knew"},{"startTime":1373.589,"endTime":1377.089,"body":"that my product was in this phase is"},{"startTime":1373.589,"endTime":1377.089,"body":"when people would leave, the company"},{"startTime":1377.089,"endTime":1381.099,"body":"would be real slow at replacing the"},{"startTime":1377.089,"endTime":1381.099,"body":"people on the team, or maybe they would"},{"startTime":1381.099,"endTime":1385.429,"body":"try to offshore the support of this, but"},{"startTime":1381.099,"endTime":1385.429,"body":"the problem is there's so much tribal"},{"startTime":1385.449,"endTime":1388.509,"body":"knowledge when you're a software is at"},{"startTime":1385.449,"endTime":1388.509,"body":"this point that it's very difficult to"},{"startTime":1388.839,"endTime":1393.789,"body":"anyway, so like when stuff moves from"},{"startTime":1388.839,"endTime":1393.789,"body":"growth stage to maturity stage, I think"},{"startTime":1393.789,"endTime":1397.419,"body":"we already talked about a couple of"},{"startTime":1393.789,"endTime":1397.419,"body":"growth to maturity type of things like"},{"startTime":1397.659,"endTime":1402.909,"body":"number one, you can expect  the general"},{"startTime":1397.659,"endTime":1402.909,"body":"feeling will be less electric when it"},{"startTime":1402.919,"endTime":1408.249,"body":"moves into maturity phase, I expect it to"},{"startTime":1402.919,"endTime":1408.249,"body":"be like Utilization and standardization"},{"startTime":1408.249,"endTime":1411.539,"body":"and that kind of stuff to be like rampant"},{"startTime":1408.249,"endTime":1411.539,"body":"in the program You're like, what is if"},{"startTime":1411.539,"endTime":1412.859,"body":"you're still there from growth phase?"},{"startTime":1412.859,"endTime":1415.449,"body":"You can be like what is all"},{"startTime":1412.859,"endTime":1415.449,"body":"this stuff that I seem to be"},{"startTime":1415.449,"endTime":1416.769,"body":"allergic to this is gross."},{"startTime":1416.769,"endTime":1417.549,"body":"Why do we have this?"},{"startTime":1417.559,"endTime":1418.999,"body":"It's quite regimented by now."},{"startTime":1419.019,"endTime":1420.949,"body":"Yeah, because  they have a pool of money."},{"startTime":1420.949,"endTime":1424.649,"body":"That's not increasing You know, the growth"},{"startTime":1420.949,"endTime":1424.649,"body":"isn't there anymore and they're trying"},{"startTime":1424.649,"endTime":1427.734,"body":"to Seek optimization, cost optimization."},{"startTime":1427.734,"endTime":1430.134,"body":"They're trying to cost"},{"startTime":1427.734,"endTime":1430.134,"body":"cut their way into Yeah."},{"startTime":1430.384,"endTime":1431.094,"body":"More money."},{"startTime":1431.494,"endTime":1432.134,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1432.184,"endTime":1432.894,"body":"This is weird."},{"startTime":1433.174,"endTime":1436.234,"body":"If somebody leaves and you don't"},{"startTime":1433.174,"endTime":1436.234,"body":"replace them, that's saving money."},{"startTime":1436.604,"endTime":1436.794,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1436.814,"endTime":1438.104,"body":"You know, or getting rid of people."},{"startTime":1438.594,"endTime":1443.79,"body":"So there's performance metrics, maybe a"},{"startTime":1438.594,"endTime":1443.79,"body":"little more SLAs, process standardization."},{"startTime":1444.074,"endTime":1448.754,"body":"They might bring in people to, dare"},{"startTime":1444.074,"endTime":1448.754,"body":"I say, bring in people to whip the"},{"startTime":1448.754,"endTime":1452.834,"body":"team into shape to get more velocity"},{"startTime":1448.754,"endTime":1452.834,"body":"out of them if you ever hear these"},{"startTime":1452.834,"endTime":1454.424,"body":"things, it's, you probably have a."},{"startTime":1454.759,"endTime":1457.199,"body":"You're probably going through"},{"startTime":1454.759,"endTime":1457.199,"body":"the growth to maturity transition"},{"startTime":1457.199,"endTime":1458.189,"body":"and you might not like it."},{"startTime":1458.659,"endTime":1459.369,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1459.369,"endTime":1460.849,"body":"Optimization."},{"startTime":1460.849,"endTime":1461.809,"body":"Standardization."},{"startTime":1461.809,"endTime":1463.949,"body":"Yeah, and then so where"},{"startTime":1461.809,"endTime":1463.949,"body":"do we go from here?"},{"startTime":1463.959,"endTime":1468.079,"body":"So our last stage is sunset slash decline."},{"startTime":1468.149,"endTime":1469.119,"body":"I like sunset."},{"startTime":1469.139,"endTime":1469.799,"body":"We'll say sunset."},{"startTime":1469.889,"endTime":1473.179,"body":"in the sunset phase, your"},{"startTime":1469.889,"endTime":1473.179,"body":"product clearly is in decline."},{"startTime":1473.229,"endTime":1476.469,"body":"You know, you're losing users or"},{"startTime":1473.229,"endTime":1476.469,"body":"you're not signing up new people."},{"startTime":1476.529,"endTime":1477.159,"body":"People are leaving."},{"startTime":1477.169,"endTime":1478.069,"body":"maybe that's a plan thing."},{"startTime":1478.069,"endTime":1481.309,"body":"in my case I said like, Oh, when you"},{"startTime":1478.069,"endTime":1481.309,"body":"scan and you're going to go to this API"},{"startTime":1481.309,"endTime":1485.019,"body":"that's over here, or you're going to"},{"startTime":1481.309,"endTime":1485.019,"body":"this feature, this whole feature or set"},{"startTime":1485.019,"endTime":1487.159,"body":"of features is moving to the new stack."},{"startTime":1487.159,"endTime":1487.809,"body":"We did that too."},{"startTime":1487.859,"endTime":1489.289,"body":"I was on a team."},{"startTime":1489.369,"endTime":1492.469,"body":"I think it was a team lead actually"},{"startTime":1489.369,"endTime":1492.469,"body":"on a team that was going through a"},{"startTime":1492.469,"endTime":1495.579,"body":"decline stage where all the developers"},{"startTime":1492.469,"endTime":1495.579,"body":"left and went and formed a new team on"},{"startTime":1495.629,"endTime":1498.619,"body":"the hot new products that got all the"},{"startTime":1495.629,"endTime":1498.619,"body":"money and visibility and everything."},{"startTime":1498.859,"endTime":1500.079,"body":"And we still had customers."},{"startTime":1500.359,"endTime":1502.919,"body":"It's just, there was no"},{"startTime":1500.359,"endTime":1502.919,"body":"sales apparatus or marketing."},{"startTime":1503.169,"endTime":1507.529,"body":"You know, driving new customers into"},{"startTime":1503.169,"endTime":1507.529,"body":"our pool and there was no addition."},{"startTime":1507.529,"endTime":1509.769,"body":"You know, when people leave the"},{"startTime":1507.529,"endTime":1509.769,"body":"team, they wouldn't get replaced."},{"startTime":1510.119,"endTime":1513.819,"body":"So it's people that are there"},{"startTime":1510.119,"endTime":1513.819,"body":"pretty much relegated to support."},{"startTime":1514.029,"endTime":1514.329,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1514.749,"endTime":1517.319,"body":"So one thing you could do,"},{"startTime":1514.749,"endTime":1517.319,"body":"though, in this situation is"},{"startTime":1517.489,"endTime":1519.149,"body":"start to align your customers."},{"startTime":1519.399,"endTime":1523.049,"body":"Current customers thinking into"},{"startTime":1519.399,"endTime":1523.049,"body":"adopting the new product, right?"},{"startTime":1523.339,"endTime":1527.318,"body":"By not only just doing demos and whatnot,"},{"startTime":1523.339,"endTime":1527.318,"body":"but actually helping them migrate."},{"startTime":1527.566,"endTime":1532.696,"body":"I've been in a company where the company"},{"startTime":1527.566,"endTime":1532.696,"body":"picked up the migration activity."},{"startTime":1532.946,"endTime":1534.306,"body":"So the, the effort, right?"},{"startTime":1534.306,"endTime":1538.166,"body":"People involved, project manager"},{"startTime":1534.306,"endTime":1538.166,"body":"the, the developers, et cetera."},{"startTime":1538.566,"endTime":1541.036,"body":"At no charge to the"},{"startTime":1538.566,"endTime":1541.036,"body":"customer if they migrated."},{"startTime":1541.536,"endTime":1544.986,"body":"So there are things you can"},{"startTime":1541.536,"endTime":1544.986,"body":"do to,  entice your customers"},{"startTime":1545.276,"endTime":1546.576,"body":"to move to your new product."},{"startTime":1546.676,"endTime":1549.286,"body":"This is a long tail, by the"},{"startTime":1546.676,"endTime":1549.286,"body":"way, in some products, right?"},{"startTime":1549.326,"endTime":1551.366,"body":"This can go on for a long, long time."},{"startTime":1551.616,"endTime":1554.336,"body":"So just like signs of"},{"startTime":1551.616,"endTime":1554.336,"body":"the decline phase here."},{"startTime":1554.416,"endTime":1557.916,"body":"You know, you're doing security"},{"startTime":1554.416,"endTime":1557.916,"body":"updates, not much else, to be honest."},{"startTime":1557.916,"endTime":1560.946,"body":"Like you really aren't, probably aren't"},{"startTime":1557.916,"endTime":1560.946,"body":"doing feature development unless it's"},{"startTime":1560.946,"endTime":1564.996,"body":"just like, Kind of refining a feature or"},{"startTime":1560.946,"endTime":1564.996,"body":"two that making it a little less clunky."},{"startTime":1564.996,"endTime":1570.756,"body":"And then probably only after somebody, one"},{"startTime":1564.996,"endTime":1570.756,"body":"of your customers at a higher level calls"},{"startTime":1570.756,"endTime":1572.586,"body":"one of your executives at a higher level."},{"startTime":1572.586,"endTime":1575.846,"body":"And there's some harsh"},{"startTime":1572.586,"endTime":1575.846,"body":"words said on the phone."},{"startTime":1575.856,"endTime":1577.716,"body":"This has to be for pretty"},{"startTime":1575.856,"endTime":1577.716,"body":"important things too."},{"startTime":1577.776,"endTime":1581.076,"body":"I mean, you would stop doing bug"},{"startTime":1577.776,"endTime":1581.076,"body":"fixes for trivial bugs, right?"},{"startTime":1581.116,"endTime":1581.766,"body":"Things like that."},{"startTime":1581.836,"endTime":1582.836,"body":"Oh, that's probably long."},{"startTime":1582.986,"endTime":1585.366,"body":"I honestly, that is probably"},{"startTime":1582.986,"endTime":1585.366,"body":"done in the maturity stage."},{"startTime":1585.366,"endTime":1589.816,"body":"You said all that, all the big triage"},{"startTime":1585.366,"endTime":1589.816,"body":"sit down bug parties of let's go"},{"startTime":1589.816,"endTime":1591.556,"body":"through a product and let's align."},{"startTime":1591.556,"endTime":1591.716,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1592.121,"endTime":1595.951,"body":"You know, QA's complaining, but there's"},{"startTime":1592.121,"endTime":1595.951,"body":"no time or money to do that with."},{"startTime":1596.211,"endTime":1599.551,"body":"That stuff probably already"},{"startTime":1596.211,"endTime":1599.551,"body":"happened in the maturity phase."},{"startTime":1599.551,"endTime":1603.701,"body":"And by this phase, you've moved"},{"startTime":1599.551,"endTime":1603.701,"body":"fully to like, documentation."},{"startTime":1603.851,"endTime":1605.971,"body":"Of like, these are the"},{"startTime":1603.851,"endTime":1605.971,"body":"known issues in the system."},{"startTime":1606.221,"endTime":1607.041,"body":"And you've made that clear."},{"startTime":1607.241,"endTime":1610.811,"body":"Available to your customers somehow or"},{"startTime":1607.241,"endTime":1610.811,"body":"maybe your customers support people or"},{"startTime":1610.811,"endTime":1615.331,"body":"whatever so that they can just kind of"},{"startTime":1610.811,"endTime":1615.331,"body":"deflect when those issues do come up"},{"startTime":1615.331,"endTime":1618.341,"body":"yeah, I mean, so look, we"},{"startTime":1615.331,"endTime":1618.341,"body":"understand this is an issue, but"},{"startTime":1618.361,"endTime":1621.301,"body":"it's remediated, it's fixed, it's"},{"startTime":1618.361,"endTime":1621.301,"body":"not an issue in the new version."},{"startTime":1621.481,"endTime":1621.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1621.971,"endTime":1622.181,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1622.431,"endTime":1622.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1622.841,"endTime":1627.231,"body":"You know, so any kind of like cutting"},{"startTime":1622.841,"endTime":1627.231,"body":"over systems, archives, backups, whatever"},{"startTime":1627.231,"endTime":1630.801,"body":"you have to do to store anything that's"},{"startTime":1627.231,"endTime":1630.801,"body":"important, trying to coordinate customers"},{"startTime":1630.811,"endTime":1634.381,"body":"off the system when it's convenient for"},{"startTime":1630.811,"endTime":1634.381,"body":"them and you, because you're coordinating"},{"startTime":1634.381,"endTime":1638.561,"body":"new roadmaps with the old customers and"},{"startTime":1634.381,"endTime":1638.561,"body":"features because I've been a part of a"},{"startTime":1638.761,"endTime":1642.441,"body":"migration or two in my time where you"},{"startTime":1638.761,"endTime":1642.441,"body":"take old features that customers still"},{"startTime":1642.441,"endTime":1647.221,"body":"are using the core features and you lift"},{"startTime":1642.441,"endTime":1647.221,"body":"those first out of the product and you"},{"startTime":1647.221,"endTime":1648.611,"body":"move those over to your new product."},{"startTime":1648.931,"endTime":1650.821,"body":"Hey, your new core features over here."},{"startTime":1650.821,"endTime":1652.201,"body":"It's got better response time."},{"startTime":1652.301,"endTime":1653.521,"body":"It's more robust."},{"startTime":1653.521,"endTime":1655.021,"body":"It's whatever you know."},{"startTime":1655.061,"endTime":1658.401,"body":"And like if you start with the core"},{"startTime":1655.061,"endTime":1658.401,"body":"features and you migrate those over"},{"startTime":1658.401,"endTime":1659.951,"body":"The core features have to go, right?"},{"startTime":1659.961,"endTime":1661.011,"body":"So yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1661.041,"endTime":1663.381,"body":"They like the lighters, but"},{"startTime":1661.041,"endTime":1663.381,"body":"yeah, I mean, if the bread and"},{"startTime":1663.381,"endTime":1664.551,"body":"butter has to be there still."},{"startTime":1664.801,"endTime":1667.931,"body":"So , moving from maturity to decline."},{"startTime":1668.231,"endTime":1669.281,"body":", things that you can expect."},{"startTime":1669.311,"endTime":1672.491,"body":"Hopefully you can expect"},{"startTime":1669.311,"endTime":1672.491,"body":"an actual sunset strategy."},{"startTime":1672.831,"endTime":1673.861,"body":"Like these are our timelines."},{"startTime":1673.871,"endTime":1675.271,"body":"These are the teams, these, whatever."},{"startTime":1675.521,"endTime":1679.881,"body":"I will tell you at the company I was"},{"startTime":1675.521,"endTime":1679.881,"body":"in, it was like an unspoken we're just"},{"startTime":1679.881,"endTime":1683.711,"body":"going to not replace people and be"},{"startTime":1679.881,"endTime":1683.711,"body":"real shady about it because private"},{"startTime":1683.711,"endTime":1685.251,"body":"equity is involved in those guys."},{"startTime":1685.501,"endTime":1686.431,"body":"They're just not gonna tell you."},{"startTime":1686.431,"endTime":1689.311,"body":"And you, and you should be smart"},{"startTime":1686.431,"endTime":1689.311,"body":"enough to know that you're basically"},{"startTime":1689.311,"endTime":1690.451,"body":"getting put out to pasture."},{"startTime":1690.511,"endTime":1691.051,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1691.051,"endTime":1692.311,"body":"I've been at those companies too."},{"startTime":1692.361,"endTime":1694.371,"body":"They don't say anything publicly."},{"startTime":1694.621,"endTime":1697.201,"body":"So anyway, you're going to see a"},{"startTime":1694.621,"endTime":1697.201,"body":"reduction in development scope."},{"startTime":1697.201,"endTime":1699.616,"body":"You're going to see a reduction in"},{"startTime":1697.201,"endTime":1699.616,"body":"development the money to fund development."},{"startTime":1699.866,"endTime":1704.911,"body":"Hopefully you will see a sunset strategy"},{"startTime":1699.866,"endTime":1704.911,"body":"and people from, you know the teams that"},{"startTime":1704.911,"endTime":1708.531,"body":"are being sunset will be moved over to the"},{"startTime":1704.911,"endTime":1708.531,"body":"new development teams or something like"},{"startTime":1708.531,"endTime":1712.721,"body":"that hopefully you don't just one day show"},{"startTime":1708.531,"endTime":1712.721,"body":"up and that there's a lock and chain on"},{"startTime":1712.721,"endTime":1715.081,"body":"the doors and a little box on the floor."},{"startTime":1715.111,"endTime":1715.671,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1715.921,"endTime":1717.481,"body":"Which you know, Hey, that happens too."},{"startTime":1717.501,"endTime":1719.111,"body":"it does keep the resume updated."},{"startTime":1719.171,"endTime":1722.981,"body":"Yeah drastic what happens but I thing"},{"startTime":1719.171,"endTime":1722.981,"body":"to talk about in this podcast is going"},{"startTime":1723.171,"endTime":1726.461,"body":"in the opposite direction Yeah, and you"},{"startTime":1723.171,"endTime":1726.461,"body":"really could jump from any direction"},{"startTime":1726.481,"endTime":1730.111,"body":"to any direction, but I think it's"},{"startTime":1726.481,"endTime":1730.111,"body":"cool to talk about going from decline"},{"startTime":1730.611,"endTime":1732.461,"body":"or actually it would be maturity."},{"startTime":1732.461,"endTime":1733.681,"body":"It wouldn't be decline back into growth."},{"startTime":1733.721,"endTime":1736.361,"body":"It'd be maturity Back into growth."},{"startTime":1736.611,"endTime":1739.511,"body":"So like you you've kind of leveled"},{"startTime":1736.611,"endTime":1739.511,"body":"off and then something happens in"},{"startTime":1739.511,"endTime":1743.411,"body":"the market and then there's a big"},{"startTime":1739.511,"endTime":1743.411,"body":"influx of cash for some reason And"},{"startTime":1743.411,"endTime":1745.991,"body":"now you're basically going backwards."},{"startTime":1746.011,"endTime":1750.831,"body":"Well, classically where I've seen this"},{"startTime":1746.011,"endTime":1750.831,"body":"is where you're in that phase, but then"},{"startTime":1750.941,"endTime":1752.461,"body":"you look, you go into another market."},{"startTime":1752.791,"endTime":1752.981,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1752.981,"endTime":1754.781,"body":"So geographically maybe, right."},{"startTime":1755.051,"endTime":1758.891,"body":"And you have more customers now and"},{"startTime":1755.051,"endTime":1758.891,"body":"they have certain new things that"},{"startTime":1758.901,"endTime":1761.491,"body":"they want and they expect right now."},{"startTime":1761.711,"endTime":1763.151,"body":"They can't wait till the next version."},{"startTime":1763.461,"endTime":1768.051,"body":"So in order to get that business right,"},{"startTime":1763.461,"endTime":1768.051,"body":"you would now write those features in."},{"startTime":1768.301,"endTime":1769.491,"body":"Growing internationally."},{"startTime":1769.741,"endTime":1771.701,"body":"So what would happen"},{"startTime":1769.741,"endTime":1771.701,"body":"with the teams in that?"},{"startTime":1771.951,"endTime":1775.781,"body":"Would there be a mad scramble to or"},{"startTime":1771.951,"endTime":1775.781,"body":"just getting the teams to work 24 7?"},{"startTime":1775.831,"endTime":1776.531,"body":"All of the above."},{"startTime":1776.911,"endTime":1777.771,"body":"Mad scramble."},{"startTime":1777.981,"endTime":1778.931,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1779.041,"endTime":1781.131,"body":"You know, the teams work harder, longer."},{"startTime":1781.381,"endTime":1781.991,"body":"Not better."},{"startTime":1782.331,"endTime":1782.711,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1782.721,"endTime":1782.871,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1782.871,"endTime":1783.251,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":1783.261,"endTime":1786.541,"body":"So, going backwards from"},{"startTime":1783.261,"endTime":1786.541,"body":"maturity back to growth."},{"startTime":1786.791,"endTime":1790.631,"body":"Causing havoc you know, cause the"},{"startTime":1786.791,"endTime":1790.631,"body":"other thing I wanted to bring up and"},{"startTime":1790.631,"endTime":1794.861,"body":"then  we can go from maturity or from"},{"startTime":1790.631,"endTime":1794.861,"body":"growth all the way back to the MVP mode."},{"startTime":1795.161,"endTime":1798.671,"body":"For example, if you, if you go from"},{"startTime":1795.161,"endTime":1798.671,"body":"maturity, Right, you got a team, they're"},{"startTime":1798.671,"endTime":1801.401,"body":"a stable team, they're keeping your"},{"startTime":1798.671,"endTime":1801.401,"body":"system running, they're not really"},{"startTime":1801.401,"endTime":1803.891,"body":"asking you to do new features, the"},{"startTime":1801.401,"endTime":1803.891,"body":"architecture is kind of the architecture."},{"startTime":1803.921,"endTime":1804.831,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1805.041,"endTime":1806.261,"body":"They're just kind of"},{"startTime":1805.041,"endTime":1806.261,"body":"keeping the lights on."},{"startTime":1806.501,"endTime":1809.811,"body":"And then you go to that team and"},{"startTime":1806.501,"endTime":1809.811,"body":"you say, Hey, I've noticed this slow"},{"startTime":1810.161,"endTime":1812.561,"body":"trail off of revenue and customers."},{"startTime":1812.841,"endTime":1816.501,"body":"I want you guys to shake up the"},{"startTime":1812.841,"endTime":1816.501,"body":"market and do some MVP work."},{"startTime":1816.541,"endTime":1817.421,"body":"True MVP work."},{"startTime":1817.781,"endTime":1818.531,"body":"Talk to customers."},{"startTime":1818.581,"endTime":1819.761,"body":"Get a little crazy."},{"startTime":1820.011,"endTime":1824.221,"body":"That would, that's, that's interesting"},{"startTime":1820.011,"endTime":1824.221,"body":"to throw at a team in maturity because"},{"startTime":1824.221,"endTime":1828.931,"body":"I almost wonder if they even have that"},{"startTime":1824.221,"endTime":1828.931,"body":"skill set anymore now that they're"},{"startTime":1828.961,"endTime":1832.481,"body":"so far from the MVP phase have you"},{"startTime":1828.961,"endTime":1832.481,"body":"managed to keep the same people around?"},{"startTime":1832.481,"endTime":1834.711,"body":"The skill sets have"},{"startTime":1832.481,"endTime":1834.711,"body":"changed probably by now."},{"startTime":1834.741,"endTime":1835.081,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1835.471,"endTime":1839.671,"body":"If you got new people in, you're basically"},{"startTime":1835.471,"endTime":1839.671,"body":"starting off from scratch anyway, but"},{"startTime":1839.671,"endTime":1843.251,"body":"it would be those innovation people"},{"startTime":1839.671,"endTime":1843.251,"body":"that you would have to work with that"},{"startTime":1843.301,"endTime":1845.641,"body":"Scott works to say, let's go back."},{"startTime":1845.891,"endTime":1849.611,"body":"And deconstruct this product and see"},{"startTime":1845.891,"endTime":1849.611,"body":"what we can do with it to shake it up"},{"startTime":1849.861,"endTime":1854.411,"body":"Almost inevitably whatever results from"},{"startTime":1849.861,"endTime":1854.411,"body":"there will not be the same product What"},{"startTime":1854.411,"endTime":1858.121,"body":"i'm saying is it will be a new version"},{"startTime":1854.411,"endTime":1858.121,"body":"It would not be the same version because"},{"startTime":1858.121,"endTime":1860.861,"body":"if you put all of that in the same"},{"startTime":1858.121,"endTime":1860.861,"body":"version it's like trying to change the"},{"startTime":1860.861,"endTime":1865.241,"body":"tire on a car while it's being driven"},{"startTime":1860.861,"endTime":1865.241,"body":"at 60 miles an hour on the highway."},{"startTime":1865.321,"endTime":1867.351,"body":"It's very difficult to pull that one off."},{"startTime":1867.791,"endTime":1871.971,"body":"I can see how that can go"},{"startTime":1867.791,"endTime":1871.971,"body":"badly wrong pretty quickly."},{"startTime":1872.021,"endTime":1876.951,"body":"But if you have a separation of versions,"},{"startTime":1872.021,"endTime":1876.951,"body":"almost products, you can pull that off."},{"startTime":1877.011,"endTime":1877.331,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1877.611,"endTime":1880.011,"body":"Well, I've seen this in"},{"startTime":1877.611,"endTime":1880.011,"body":"maturity back to growth."},{"startTime":1880.091,"endTime":1884.351,"body":"I've seen this, like the, the PHP upgrade"},{"startTime":1880.091,"endTime":1884.351,"body":"thing that I was talking about before."},{"startTime":1884.601,"endTime":1886.021,"body":"They did go through that upgrade."},{"startTime":1886.321,"endTime":1889.931,"body":"That would be like maturity getting"},{"startTime":1886.321,"endTime":1889.931,"body":"pushed back into the growth phase."},{"startTime":1890.241,"endTime":1894.821,"body":"And it, because what they did there"},{"startTime":1890.241,"endTime":1894.821,"body":"was they did a massive restructuring"},{"startTime":1894.831,"endTime":1896.611,"body":"of all the underlying code."},{"startTime":1896.861,"endTime":1900.711,"body":"basically refactoring of all the code"},{"startTime":1896.861,"endTime":1900.711,"body":"that was in the system in order to"},{"startTime":1900.711,"endTime":1904.361,"body":"do a major upgrade and also to clean"},{"startTime":1900.711,"endTime":1904.361,"body":"things up, but they went ahead with that"},{"startTime":1904.391,"endTime":1910.471,"body":"upgrade because what they wanted out of"},{"startTime":1904.391,"endTime":1910.471,"body":"there was a more modern, sexier UI that"},{"startTime":1910.521,"endTime":1913.501,"body":"would blow their competitors out of the"},{"startTime":1910.521,"endTime":1913.501,"body":"water, which they did end up getting."},{"startTime":1913.501,"endTime":1915.061,"body":"And they went back into"},{"startTime":1913.501,"endTime":1915.061,"body":"growth phase from that."},{"startTime":1915.071,"endTime":1920.131,"body":"So but it took a mass again, we were all"},{"startTime":1915.071,"endTime":1920.131,"body":"volunteers, so it took a massive influx"},{"startTime":1920.141,"endTime":1922.306,"body":"of this was a volunteer hours, right?"},{"startTime":1922.586,"endTime":1925.986,"body":"Volunteer hours that otherwise could have"},{"startTime":1922.586,"endTime":1925.986,"body":"gone to other volunteer things, right?"},{"startTime":1926.476,"endTime":1928.886,"body":"But yeah, it took a massive amount"},{"startTime":1926.476,"endTime":1928.886,"body":"of effort to get them there."},{"startTime":1928.976,"endTime":1933.036,"body":"to push them into, you know I guess it"},{"startTime":1928.976,"endTime":1933.036,"body":"was strategic though because they said"},{"startTime":1933.036,"endTime":1937.686,"body":"like, Hey, if our UI was better, maybe our"},{"startTime":1933.036,"endTime":1937.686,"body":"system wouldn't be in this maturity phase."},{"startTime":1938.146,"endTime":1941.816,"body":"With this long tail maybe we could bring"},{"startTime":1938.146,"endTime":1941.816,"body":"it to different markets So I guess i'm"},{"startTime":1941.816,"endTime":1945.066,"body":"kind of agreeing with what you were saying"},{"startTime":1941.816,"endTime":1945.066,"body":"it was the same product, but they were"},{"startTime":1945.066,"endTime":1948.746,"body":"shipping it to different markets So they"},{"startTime":1945.066,"endTime":1948.746,"body":"could grow with those different markets"},{"startTime":1949.136,"endTime":1953.056,"body":"I mean, yeah, I think that aligns with"},{"startTime":1949.136,"endTime":1953.056,"body":"what I was saying about opening to new"},{"startTime":1953.066,"endTime":1957.166,"body":"markets the same product that you have"},{"startTime":1953.066,"endTime":1957.166,"body":"but then yeah adding features Right,"},{"startTime":1957.206,"endTime":1958.656,"body":"to suit those markets."},{"startTime":1958.746,"endTime":1960.166,"body":"Well, that was on the Kano model."},{"startTime":1960.596,"endTime":1963.466,"body":"Sorry, I want to talk about the Kano"},{"startTime":1960.596,"endTime":1963.466,"body":"model, but on the Kano model, those are"},{"startTime":1963.466,"endTime":1966.406,"body":"those features that are expected to even"},{"startTime":1963.466,"endTime":1966.406,"body":"get your foot in the door and if you"},{"startTime":1966.406,"endTime":1971.366,"body":"don't have them like, having a vehicle"},{"startTime":1966.406,"endTime":1971.366,"body":"that starts and runs and doesn't just"},{"startTime":1971.366,"endTime":1974.266,"body":"stall out at every time you get to a"},{"startTime":1971.366,"endTime":1974.266,"body":"stoplight that's like, that shouldn't"},{"startTime":1974.266,"endTime":1977.277,"body":"be extra and no one should have to"},{"startTime":1974.266,"endTime":1977.277,"body":"worry about, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1977.371,"endTime":1978.536,"body":"I pay to not have that."},{"startTime":1978.536,"endTime":1981.266,"body":"So now you go, yeah, we'll"},{"startTime":1978.536,"endTime":1981.266,"body":"do a podcast on the tomorrow."},{"startTime":1981.266,"endTime":1983.281,"body":"you're never gonna buy a car"},{"startTime":1981.266,"endTime":1983.281,"body":"that, is gonna act like that."},{"startTime":1983.311,"endTime":1983.521,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1983.521,"endTime":1983.666,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1983.831,"endTime":1985.061,"body":"Wouldn't even get into the market."},{"startTime":1985.061,"endTime":1990.601,"body":"So for that company, a modern UI was one"},{"startTime":1985.061,"endTime":1990.601,"body":"that even got you in the door, you know?"},{"startTime":1990.851,"endTime":1993.491,"body":"Growth back to MVP phase."},{"startTime":1993.931,"endTime":1998.061,"body":"the most likely situation here is you're"},{"startTime":1993.931,"endTime":1998.061,"body":"probing different market segments."},{"startTime":1998.311,"endTime":2000.431,"body":"same market, different"},{"startTime":1998.311,"endTime":2000.431,"body":"segments of the market."},{"startTime":2000.441,"endTime":2004.181,"body":"You're trying to grow horizontally"},{"startTime":2000.441,"endTime":2004.181,"body":"rather than penetrate different markets."},{"startTime":2004.431,"endTime":2005.611,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":2005.611,"endTime":2008.671,"body":"when you're going back to"},{"startTime":2005.611,"endTime":2008.671,"body":"development, it's not necessarily"},{"startTime":2008.681,"endTime":2011.161,"body":"to be looked upon as a restart."},{"startTime":2011.211,"endTime":2012.571,"body":"You're not necessarily doing that."},{"startTime":2012.941,"endTime":2016.661,"body":"Because you're going back there"},{"startTime":2012.941,"endTime":2016.661,"body":"with an intent to do something"},{"startTime":2016.661,"endTime":2018.291,"body":"different than what was done before."},{"startTime":2018.391,"endTime":2021.121,"body":"That really drives where"},{"startTime":2018.391,"endTime":2021.121,"body":"you go with this, right?"},{"startTime":2021.151,"endTime":2024.311,"body":"Whether you go that way or you just"},{"startTime":2021.151,"endTime":2024.311,"body":"say, we're going to curtail this"},{"startTime":2024.321,"endTime":2027.231,"body":"product and say it is what it is"},{"startTime":2024.321,"endTime":2027.231,"body":"and come up with a new product."},{"startTime":2027.231,"endTime":2027.413,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2027.663,"endTime":2031.143,"body":"If you've got a lot of bloat in your"},{"startTime":2027.663,"endTime":2031.143,"body":"product, you might want to remove"},{"startTime":2031.143,"endTime":2036.083,"body":"some of that and focus on what it was"},{"startTime":2031.143,"endTime":2036.083,"body":"intended to do in the first place, right?"},{"startTime":2036.183,"endTime":2037.643,"body":"the core purpose of the product."},{"startTime":2037.763,"endTime":2038.743,"body":"You go back to that."},{"startTime":2038.833,"endTime":2042.473,"body":"I mean, also when you're in the growth"},{"startTime":2038.833,"endTime":2042.473,"body":"phase or really even the maturity phase,"},{"startTime":2042.523,"endTime":2046.293,"body":"I worry when you're a little closer to"},{"startTime":2042.523,"endTime":2046.293,"body":"the maturity phase whether you have this"},{"startTime":2046.433,"endTime":2052.143,"body":"talent on your Program or your teams"},{"startTime":2046.433,"endTime":2052.143,"body":"anymore to go all the way back to the MVP"},{"startTime":2052.143,"endTime":2055.333,"body":"phase to try to probe different markets"},{"startTime":2052.143,"endTime":2055.333,"body":"and  Maybe we can take our document"},{"startTime":2055.333,"endTime":2059.603,"body":"scanning and change it for the health"},{"startTime":2055.333,"endTime":2059.603,"body":"care field and then just have document"},{"startTime":2059.603,"endTime":2063.503,"body":"scanning for health Care on its own"},{"startTime":2059.603,"endTime":2063.503,"body":"without the rest of the app, spin it off"},{"startTime":2063.503,"endTime":2068.433,"body":"into its own mobile app and maybe it can"},{"startTime":2063.503,"endTime":2068.433,"body":"be helpful we found that most doctors"},{"startTime":2068.433,"endTime":2072.513,"body":"and nurses don't need just photos taken"},{"startTime":2068.433,"endTime":2072.513,"body":"to upload the document here because"},{"startTime":2072.523,"endTime":2075.063,"body":"all their stuff is kind of standardized"},{"startTime":2072.523,"endTime":2075.063,"body":"and they need this other thing."},{"startTime":2075.473,"endTime":2075.783,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2075.893,"endTime":2076.823,"body":"So we learned something."},{"startTime":2077.073,"endTime":2078.323,"body":"do we still want to pursue that market?"},{"startTime":2078.323,"endTime":2079.133,"body":"Meh, probably not."},{"startTime":2079.383,"endTime":2081.623,"body":"That's a great example, yeah,"},{"startTime":2079.383,"endTime":2081.623,"body":"of why you would go back."},{"startTime":2081.873,"endTime":2085.113,"body":"the development, everything we talked"},{"startTime":2081.873,"endTime":2085.113,"body":"about is like, oh, you got capacity"},{"startTime":2085.113,"endTime":2088.123,"body":"planning, and utilization's probably"},{"startTime":2085.113,"endTime":2088.123,"body":"crept in, you got these Gantt charts"},{"startTime":2088.123,"endTime":2090.553,"body":"or whatever, all the stuff you're"},{"startTime":2088.123,"endTime":2090.553,"body":"doing in maturity to make sure that"},{"startTime":2090.563,"endTime":2093.313,"body":"you're as optimized as you can be."},{"startTime":2093.573,"endTime":2096.093,"body":"Like, none of that serves"},{"startTime":2093.573,"endTime":2096.093,"body":"you in the MVP phase."},{"startTime":2096.343,"endTime":2099.683,"body":"You know, moving fast, listening to"},{"startTime":2096.343,"endTime":2099.683,"body":"customers, talking directly to customers"},{"startTime":2099.683,"endTime":2103.123,"body":"not doing what your boss says, like"},{"startTime":2099.683,"endTime":2103.123,"body":"all that stuff that serves you in the"},{"startTime":2103.123,"endTime":2106.893,"body":"MVP phase, I would worry is gone by"},{"startTime":2103.123,"endTime":2106.893,"body":"the time you get to the maturity phase."},{"startTime":2106.963,"endTime":2107.323,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2107.343,"endTime":2108.053,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2108.083,"endTime":2109.283,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2109.303,"endTime":2109.893,"body":"That's gone."},{"startTime":2109.913,"endTime":2111.703,"body":"And your mindset has changed now, right?"},{"startTime":2111.703,"endTime":2113.473,"body":"Because it's become more regimented."},{"startTime":2113.483,"endTime":2115.183,"body":"The whole environment's"},{"startTime":2113.483,"endTime":2115.183,"body":"become more regimented."},{"startTime":2115.433,"endTime":2117.043,"body":"You have layers of management now."},{"startTime":2117.143,"endTime":2120.143,"body":"So if you do have to go back"},{"startTime":2117.143,"endTime":2120.143,"body":"with that team, I don't know if"},{"startTime":2120.143,"endTime":2121.263,"body":"you're going to have success."},{"startTime":2121.433,"endTime":2124.403,"body":"Because their habits have changed,"},{"startTime":2121.433,"endTime":2124.403,"body":"the way they work has changed,"},{"startTime":2124.493,"endTime":2127.903,"body":"and they're supposed to think"},{"startTime":2124.493,"endTime":2127.903,"body":"freely and have full access to"},{"startTime":2127.903,"endTime":2130.033,"body":"customers and fast feedback loops."},{"startTime":2130.033,"endTime":2130.673,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2130.923,"endTime":2131.553,"body":"Maybe they can."},{"startTime":2131.763,"endTime":2132.483,"body":"Maybe they can pivot."},{"startTime":2132.733,"endTime":2133.563,"body":"That's an interesting one."},{"startTime":2133.563,"endTime":2136.523,"body":"I'd like to explore more"},{"startTime":2133.563,"endTime":2136.523,"body":"maybe on different podcast."},{"startTime":2136.543,"endTime":2141.083,"body":"interesting topic for me, different"},{"startTime":2136.543,"endTime":2141.083,"body":"stages of your product life cycle."},{"startTime":2141.463,"endTime":2143.413,"body":"And kind of what goes on in each stage."},{"startTime":2143.763,"endTime":2148.503,"body":"It's important to know what stage your"},{"startTime":2143.763,"endTime":2148.503,"body":"product or products are in because a"},{"startTime":2148.513,"endTime":2151.213,"body":"lot of the Marty Cagan stuff try it"},{"startTime":2148.513,"endTime":2151.213,"body":"out with the market  and check the"},{"startTime":2151.213,"endTime":2154.283,"body":"usability and viability and technical"},{"startTime":2151.213,"endTime":2154.283,"body":"feasibility and all that kind of"},{"startTime":2154.283,"endTime":2157.433,"body":"stuff like all the \"ilities\"  yeah,"},{"startTime":2154.283,"endTime":2157.433,"body":"if you're in  some of these other"},{"startTime":2157.433,"endTime":2161.453,"body":"phases  i'm not gonna say marty kagan"},{"startTime":2157.433,"endTime":2161.453,"body":"doesn't apply because I think The Good"},{"startTime":2161.453,"endTime":2165.443,"body":"practices can always apply in product"},{"startTime":2161.453,"endTime":2165.443,"body":"management and software development."},{"startTime":2165.853,"endTime":2168.483,"body":"But some of these phases value"},{"startTime":2165.853,"endTime":2168.483,"body":"that stuff a lot less than"},{"startTime":2168.483,"endTime":2169.803,"body":"other phases is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2169.943,"endTime":2170.763,"body":"Yeah, that's well put."},{"startTime":2170.783,"endTime":2173.393,"body":"I just wanted to make a point before"},{"startTime":2170.783,"endTime":2173.393,"body":"we close that even though these"},{"startTime":2173.393,"endTime":2178.343,"body":"models are shown as phases that are"},{"startTime":2173.393,"endTime":2178.343,"body":"equal, that's not really reality."},{"startTime":2178.823,"endTime":2183.333,"body":"So there's different spans on"},{"startTime":2178.823,"endTime":2183.333,"body":"these for example, maturity could"},{"startTime":2183.343,"endTime":2188.053,"body":"be a long phase and it doesn't"},{"startTime":2183.343,"endTime":2188.053,"body":"necessarily have to go down."},{"startTime":2188.093,"endTime":2188.853,"body":"All that quickly."},{"startTime":2188.883,"endTime":2189.453,"body":"It'll go down."},{"startTime":2189.453,"endTime":2191.193,"body":"Eventually, it'll start to trend down."},{"startTime":2191.533,"endTime":2194.583,"body":"Likewise with decline, decline"},{"startTime":2191.533,"endTime":2194.583,"body":"can be a very long tail."},{"startTime":2194.623,"endTime":2195.493,"body":"It just depends."},{"startTime":2195.593,"endTime":2196.223,"body":"On the product."},{"startTime":2196.273,"endTime":2199.403,"body":"We could probably build some"},{"startTime":2196.273,"endTime":2199.403,"body":"theoretical diagrams of like, here,"},{"startTime":2199.403,"endTime":2203.693,"body":"product A and product A is in growth"},{"startTime":2199.403,"endTime":2203.693,"body":"while product C is in decline."},{"startTime":2203.693,"endTime":2208.013,"body":"But the decline roadmap cause I've"},{"startTime":2203.693,"endTime":2208.013,"body":"decommissioned and shut off apps"},{"startTime":2208.013,"endTime":2209.383,"body":"before, and that's the way it goes."},{"startTime":2209.383,"endTime":2212.693,"body":"you basically,  you put the"},{"startTime":2209.383,"endTime":2212.693,"body":"milestone on the timeline and"},{"startTime":2212.693,"endTime":2215.093,"body":"say, when we've done enough here."},{"startTime":2215.473,"endTime":2218.683,"body":"That's when we all agree to make the"},{"startTime":2215.473,"endTime":2218.683,"body":"call to shut off the application."},{"startTime":2218.683,"endTime":2219.773,"body":"That doesn't have to be time bound."},{"startTime":2219.773,"endTime":2221.163,"body":"That could just be functionality bound."},{"startTime":2221.163,"endTime":2221.503,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2221.643,"endTime":2221.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2221.833,"endTime":2223.433,"body":"You can monitor that too, can't you?"},{"startTime":2223.433,"endTime":2225.483,"body":"You can say, Hey, how,"},{"startTime":2223.433,"endTime":2225.483,"body":"how are people using it?"},{"startTime":2225.953,"endTime":2226.293,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2226.293,"endTime":2229.793,"body":"It gets to a threshold, communicate that"},{"startTime":2226.293,"endTime":2229.793,"body":"out and say, we'll take care of you,"},{"startTime":2229.793,"endTime":2231.603,"body":"but we've got a better way to do this."},{"startTime":2231.653,"endTime":2234.573,"body":"Well, hopefully this has been"},{"startTime":2231.653,"endTime":2234.573,"body":"informative, at least we enjoyed it."},{"startTime":2234.633,"endTime":2238.143,"body":"Let us know what else you'd like us to"},{"startTime":2234.633,"endTime":2238.143,"body":"talk about down below in the comments."},{"startTime":2238.293,"endTime":2239.973,"body":"And don't forget to like, and subscribe."}]}