{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":13.357,"body":"we're on the bomb run right now."},{"startTime":13.357,"endTime":17.297,"body":"Up to episode 200, at this point, like"},{"startTime":13.357,"endTime":17.297,"body":"there are no episodes to waste anymore."},{"startTime":17.308,"endTime":21.008,"body":"I want to get a whole bunch of stuff"},{"startTime":17.308,"endTime":21.008,"body":"out of my system and off of my plate."},{"startTime":21.248,"endTime":22.318,"body":"I haven't said that in a long time."},{"startTime":22.568,"endTime":25.968,"body":"Yeah, there's not like, I try not"},{"startTime":22.568,"endTime":25.968,"body":"to, I try to edit out like corporate"},{"startTime":26.018,"endTime":29.607,"body":"corporate speak whenever it comes up"},{"startTime":26.018,"endTime":29.607,"body":"in the podcast, but I liked that one."},{"startTime":29.608,"endTime":30.402,"body":"That one's that one's."},{"startTime":30.403,"endTime":34.503,"body":"Yeah, I want to get it off my"},{"startTime":30.403,"endTime":34.503,"body":"plate before we get to episode 200."},{"startTime":34.503,"endTime":38.962,"body":"And one of them is what in the"},{"startTime":34.503,"endTime":38.962,"body":"heck is an enterprise business"},{"startTime":39.003,"endTime":40.833,"body":"agility coach and what did they do?"},{"startTime":41.152,"endTime":44.663,"body":"And, and I figured you're the perfect"},{"startTime":41.152,"endTime":44.663,"body":"person because you in fact are an"},{"startTime":44.663,"endTime":45.992,"body":"enterprise business agility coach."},{"startTime":46.023,"endTime":47.783,"body":"And we've been meaning to"},{"startTime":46.023,"endTime":47.783,"body":"do this one for a while."},{"startTime":48.023,"endTime":49.772,"body":"So this is, this is the time."},{"startTime":49.833,"endTime":53.032,"body":"So I assume that it's different from"},{"startTime":49.833,"endTime":53.032,"body":"an agile coach or a scrum master."},{"startTime":53.282,"endTime":54.212,"body":"It is different."},{"startTime":54.222,"endTime":56.272,"body":"I mean, there are some"},{"startTime":54.222,"endTime":56.272,"body":"obvious differences, some"},{"startTime":56.272,"endTime":57.552,"body":"not so obvious differences."},{"startTime":57.962,"endTime":60.412,"body":"So we'll start with the"},{"startTime":57.962,"endTime":60.412,"body":"obvious differences, right?"},{"startTime":60.442,"endTime":63.382,"body":"If you're a Scrum Master, you're"},{"startTime":60.442,"endTime":63.382,"body":"an Agile Coach, you're pretty"},{"startTime":63.382,"endTime":65.122,"body":"much focused at the team level."},{"startTime":65.432,"endTime":68.812,"body":"And your focus is mainly"},{"startTime":65.432,"endTime":68.812,"body":"around Agile practices."},{"startTime":69.252,"endTime":73.182,"body":"To make sure that the teams"},{"startTime":69.252,"endTime":73.182,"body":"are adopting Agile practices."},{"startTime":73.262,"endTime":78.152,"body":"So the difference between that and an"},{"startTime":73.262,"endTime":78.152,"body":"enterprise business agility coach is"},{"startTime":78.152,"endTime":83.482,"body":"that they're making sure that agile"},{"startTime":78.152,"endTime":83.482,"body":"ways of working are being looked at"},{"startTime":83.512,"endTime":88.312,"body":"and adopted across the organization"},{"startTime":83.512,"endTime":88.312,"body":"that that's different from agile"},{"startTime":88.422,"endTime":92.322,"body":"with a capital A, right, which is You"},{"startTime":88.422,"endTime":92.322,"body":"know, are the teams doing refinement?"},{"startTime":92.332,"endTime":96.462,"body":"Are they estimating that's part and"},{"startTime":92.332,"endTime":96.462,"body":"parcel of it perhaps, but when you're"},{"startTime":96.462,"endTime":101.322,"body":"looking at other domains of the"},{"startTime":96.462,"endTime":101.322,"body":"business, like finance or HR or legal"},{"startTime":101.572,"endTime":103.592,"body":"they're not developing code, right?"},{"startTime":103.682,"endTime":106.772,"body":"But they still need to instill"},{"startTime":103.682,"endTime":106.772,"body":"agility in their ways of working."},{"startTime":106.772,"endTime":109.062,"body":"So that's the biggest difference I'd say."},{"startTime":109.302,"endTime":111.322,"body":"Your focus is slightly different, right?"},{"startTime":111.622,"endTime":113.112,"body":"I was at a networking event recently."},{"startTime":113.122,"endTime":115.042,"body":"Oh no, we were both at a"},{"startTime":113.122,"endTime":115.042,"body":"networking event recently."},{"startTime":115.312,"endTime":118.552,"body":"And this came up of like, Oh,"},{"startTime":115.312,"endTime":118.552,"body":"you're, you know, you were in QA"},{"startTime":118.552,"endTime":119.542,"body":"and you moved to product management."},{"startTime":119.542,"endTime":123.992,"body":"I said, yeah, well, part of my moving"},{"startTime":119.542,"endTime":123.992,"body":"to product management was when I"},{"startTime":123.992,"endTime":129.192,"body":"realized very few of the problems are"},{"startTime":123.992,"endTime":129.192,"body":"solvable at the development team level."},{"startTime":129.577,"endTime":130.537,"body":"In corporate America."},{"startTime":130.887,"endTime":131.117,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":131.267,"endTime":135.817,"body":"Like in tech companies, you know, very,"},{"startTime":131.267,"endTime":135.817,"body":"very few of the problems and like an agile"},{"startTime":135.837,"endTime":137.497,"body":"coach, scrum master, whatever can help."},{"startTime":137.937,"endTime":138.757,"body":"At the team level."},{"startTime":139.007,"endTime":143.157,"body":"But if you have these like the"},{"startTime":139.007,"endTime":143.157,"body":"corrosive influence at a management"},{"startTime":143.157,"endTime":147.317,"body":"level or executive level, like that"},{"startTime":143.157,"endTime":147.317,"body":"stuff just filters down and just"},{"startTime":147.317,"endTime":149.147,"body":"sabotages everything at the team level."},{"startTime":149.147,"endTime":151.157,"body":"And there's really very little you can do."},{"startTime":151.407,"endTime":154.727,"body":"You know, you do the best you can,"},{"startTime":151.407,"endTime":154.727,"body":"obviously for your customers or whatever."},{"startTime":154.727,"endTime":158.027,"body":"But I mean, if you really have somebody"},{"startTime":154.727,"endTime":158.027,"body":"that doesn't, that doesn't have"},{"startTime":158.027,"endTime":161.667,"body":"empathy for the customers or doesn't"},{"startTime":158.027,"endTime":161.667,"body":"use the organizational design tool."},{"startTime":162.032,"endTime":165.262,"body":"To aid the teams, use"},{"startTime":162.032,"endTime":165.262,"body":"it against the teams."},{"startTime":165.262,"endTime":167.862,"body":"Like, you know, you've"},{"startTime":165.262,"endTime":167.862,"body":"got to fix that upstream."},{"startTime":168.082,"endTime":168.852,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":168.912,"endTime":172.442,"body":"So, you know, at that point, you're"},{"startTime":168.912,"endTime":172.442,"body":"not really looking at team dysfunction."},{"startTime":172.442,"endTime":176.642,"body":"You're looking, you're facing challenges"},{"startTime":172.442,"endTime":176.642,"body":"in the three P's that the people,"},{"startTime":176.642,"endTime":178.882,"body":"the processes and the politics."},{"startTime":179.142,"endTime":182.272,"body":"So I wrote down some notes"},{"startTime":179.142,"endTime":182.272,"body":"before we started about an"},{"startTime":182.282,"endTime":184.292,"body":"enterprise coach and what they do."},{"startTime":184.542,"endTime":186.552,"body":"Some of the things I wrote"},{"startTime":184.542,"endTime":186.552,"body":"down, these are just like high"},{"startTime":186.552,"endTime":187.752,"body":"level things that I wrote down."},{"startTime":187.812,"endTime":192.492,"body":"I wrote works directly with the"},{"startTime":187.812,"endTime":192.492,"body":"C suite to align transformation"},{"startTime":192.742,"endTime":193.602,"body":"of the whole business."},{"startTime":193.972,"endTime":196.832,"body":"Now the business could be,"},{"startTime":193.972,"endTime":196.832,"body":"Thousands of employees."},{"startTime":197.022,"endTime":200.832,"body":"So like, I, I sort of think if, if,"},{"startTime":197.022,"endTime":200.832,"body":"if you're going to be an enterprise"},{"startTime":200.832,"endTime":203.772,"body":"coach and you're going to be effective,"},{"startTime":200.832,"endTime":203.772,"body":"I guess you could have an enterprise"},{"startTime":203.772,"endTime":207.962,"body":"coach at a program level, I guess,"},{"startTime":203.772,"endTime":207.962,"body":"assuming your program is like hundreds"},{"startTime":207.962,"endTime":210.902,"body":"of employees or whatever, but I sort of"},{"startTime":207.962,"endTime":210.902,"body":"think of the enterprise coach sitting."},{"startTime":211.302,"endTime":215.932,"body":"Almost like a temporary person sitting"},{"startTime":211.302,"endTime":215.932,"body":"with the C suite trying to say,"},{"startTime":215.932,"endTime":220.042,"body":"Hey, how can we treat the different"},{"startTime":215.932,"endTime":220.042,"body":"functions of our organization more like."},{"startTime":220.292,"endTime":222.692,"body":"smaller startups or quicker,"},{"startTime":220.292,"endTime":222.692,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":222.942,"endTime":226.352,"body":"Quicker responding entities basically."},{"startTime":226.542,"endTime":230.092,"body":"And then to keep them accountable to be"},{"startTime":226.542,"endTime":230.092,"body":"like, no, this is an important thing."},{"startTime":230.302,"endTime":231.452,"body":"We really need to do this."},{"startTime":231.702,"endTime":233.162,"body":"And keep them on it, you know?"},{"startTime":233.412,"endTime":234.222,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":234.222,"endTime":238.262,"body":"I think it is it is critical to have"},{"startTime":234.222,"endTime":238.262,"body":"the C suites here because at the"},{"startTime":238.262,"endTime":241.882,"body":"end of the day, you're not going to"},{"startTime":238.262,"endTime":241.882,"body":"succeed, you know, trying to get around"},{"startTime":242.172,"endTime":246.832,"body":"enterprise agility without having backing"},{"startTime":242.172,"endTime":246.832,"body":"from the beginning at the very top."},{"startTime":247.082,"endTime":252.312,"body":"And, and also remember, they"},{"startTime":247.082,"endTime":252.312,"body":"themselves didn't really get up"},{"startTime":252.312,"endTime":254.642,"body":"there by working in agile ways."},{"startTime":254.902,"endTime":258.692,"body":"So your, your challenges are"},{"startTime":254.902,"endTime":258.692,"body":"kind of multifold here, right?"},{"startTime":258.712,"endTime":259.782,"body":"You, you've got to go and."},{"startTime":259.922,"endTime":264.272,"body":"So they need to be able to tackle their"},{"startTime":259.922,"endTime":264.272,"body":"mindset first and express how they could"},{"startTime":264.282,"endTime":266.622,"body":"be working themselves in an agile way."},{"startTime":267.112,"endTime":271.082,"body":"And the benefits so early"},{"startTime":267.112,"endTime":271.082,"body":"proof of concept with them."},{"startTime":271.332,"endTime":272.302,"body":"With their reforms."},{"startTime":272.302,"endTime":272.522,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":272.532,"endTime":275.862,"body":"So you can work with them and say,"},{"startTime":272.532,"endTime":275.862,"body":"this is how you're going to get."},{"startTime":276.352,"endTime":278.142,"body":"Through all of this a lot faster."},{"startTime":278.142,"endTime":282.612,"body":"Your decision making time cycle"},{"startTime":278.142,"endTime":282.612,"body":"is reduced substantially, right?"},{"startTime":282.642,"endTime":285.162,"body":"Those kinds of things you got"},{"startTime":282.642,"endTime":285.162,"body":"to make it happen for them."},{"startTime":285.572,"endTime":287.542,"body":"So yeah to your point"},{"startTime":285.572,"endTime":287.542,"body":"making them accountable."},{"startTime":287.592,"endTime":292.452,"body":"Absolutely you know, I usually run"},{"startTime":287.592,"endTime":292.452,"body":"a Kanban board with them and regular"},{"startTime":292.452,"endTime":296.242,"body":"touch points and Soon, they get to"},{"startTime":292.452,"endTime":296.242,"body":"the point where they'll say oh dear"},{"startTime":296.242,"endTime":299.022,"body":"I didn't get to doing that and I"},{"startTime":296.242,"endTime":299.022,"body":"know I'm gonna call me out on it."},{"startTime":299.272,"endTime":303.662,"body":"Usually executives have like this"},{"startTime":299.272,"endTime":303.662,"body":"executive assistant kind of role or"},{"startTime":303.662,"endTime":307.362,"body":"like a, like some organization will"},{"startTime":303.662,"endTime":307.362,"body":"have like a chief of staff type of role."},{"startTime":307.362,"endTime":311.622,"body":"Like this seems very close to, to"},{"startTime":307.362,"endTime":311.622,"body":"one of those roles, like a chief of"},{"startTime":311.622,"endTime":316.302,"body":"staff, but like a chief of staff for"},{"startTime":311.622,"endTime":316.302,"body":"the purpose of making sure that people"},{"startTime":316.302,"endTime":317.762,"body":"are evolving their ways of working."},{"startTime":318.012,"endTime":321.652,"body":"Throughout the organization, especially"},{"startTime":318.012,"endTime":321.652,"body":"again, especially in organizations"},{"startTime":321.652,"endTime":326.442,"body":"that are like like Several smaller"},{"startTime":321.652,"endTime":326.442,"body":"companies joined together under"},{"startTime":326.442,"endTime":328.012,"body":"an umbrella type of corporation."},{"startTime":328.022,"endTime":331.772,"body":"Sorry, not not umbrella"},{"startTime":328.022,"endTime":331.772,"body":"corporation Like a holding company."},{"startTime":332.272,"endTime":336.862,"body":"Yeah, I think in those situations what"},{"startTime":332.272,"endTime":336.862,"body":"you see though is Those roles that"},{"startTime":336.872,"endTime":340.752,"body":"you mentioned, the chief of staff,"},{"startTime":336.872,"endTime":340.752,"body":"those kinds of roles, people, chief"},{"startTime":340.752,"endTime":345.132,"body":"people person, those kinds of roles,"},{"startTime":340.752,"endTime":345.132,"body":"they do talk about ways of working,"},{"startTime":345.132,"endTime":349.942,"body":"they talk about ways of ensuring that"},{"startTime":345.132,"endTime":349.942,"body":"people, you know, have a good working"},{"startTime":349.942,"endTime":351.862,"body":"environment, they don't burn out, etc."},{"startTime":352.112,"endTime":355.802,"body":"On the day to day level, that"},{"startTime":352.112,"endTime":355.802,"body":"mind shift off working in a"},{"startTime":355.802,"endTime":357.822,"body":"way where decisions air faster."},{"startTime":358.162,"endTime":362.872,"body":"You're fostering a culture of"},{"startTime":358.162,"endTime":362.872,"body":"risk, risk taking measured risk"},{"startTime":362.872,"endTime":364.812,"body":"taking experimentation, right?"},{"startTime":364.842,"endTime":365.912,"body":"Continuous improvement."},{"startTime":366.162,"endTime":369.232,"body":"I haven't found that all that"},{"startTime":366.162,"endTime":369.232,"body":"pervasive in those environments."},{"startTime":369.482,"endTime":373.707,"body":"So again, those are your Customers"},{"startTime":369.482,"endTime":373.707,"body":"as a, as an enterprise coach,"},{"startTime":374.007,"endTime":375.097,"body":"so you've got to get with them."},{"startTime":375.337,"endTime":379.647,"body":"I just basically say they're not"},{"startTime":375.337,"endTime":379.647,"body":"any different than anybody else."},{"startTime":379.647,"endTime":382.457,"body":"That's at the board"},{"startTime":379.647,"endTime":382.457,"body":"level, the C suite, right?"},{"startTime":382.847,"endTime":386.827,"body":"So they're, they're also, you know,"},{"startTime":382.847,"endTime":386.827,"body":"they're going to own work for themselves"},{"startTime":386.827,"endTime":388.517,"body":"too, on the on the Kanba board."},{"startTime":388.767,"endTime":392.317,"body":"Normally we do on the arguing agile"},{"startTime":388.767,"endTime":392.317,"body":"podcast We'll do like a section"},{"startTime":392.317,"endTime":395.357,"body":"on pros and cons or you know for"},{"startTime":392.317,"endTime":395.357,"body":"is and against and stuff like that"},{"startTime":395.607,"endTime":399.597,"body":"Like the main arguments against are"},{"startTime":395.607,"endTime":399.597,"body":"like, well, it like, do we have the money"},{"startTime":399.817,"endTime":404.357,"body":"It is difficult to quantify the ROI"},{"startTime":399.817,"endTime":404.357,"body":"in hiring this person and even when"},{"startTime":404.357,"endTime":406.577,"body":"I'm not hiring a permanent employee."},{"startTime":406.917,"endTime":411.507,"body":"To be on my staff or, you know, sit"},{"startTime":406.917,"endTime":411.507,"body":"with the C suite or a set working"},{"startTime":411.507,"endTime":413.737,"body":"for the CEO or somebody, right."},{"startTime":414.237,"endTime":419.927,"body":"That, that initial pushback from the"},{"startTime":414.237,"endTime":419.927,"body":"CFO of like, well, what is the ROI of"},{"startTime":419.927,"endTime":422.617,"body":"hiring an enterprise coach to help us?"},{"startTime":422.787,"endTime":423.607,"body":"That's a great point."},{"startTime":423.637,"endTime":426.337,"body":"I mean, so one of the things you"},{"startTime":423.637,"endTime":426.337,"body":"have to do when you go in there is"},{"startTime":426.367,"endTime":428.787,"body":"to figure out where they're hurting."},{"startTime":428.827,"endTime":431.507,"body":"What is the impact of"},{"startTime":428.827,"endTime":431.507,"body":"delayed decision making?"},{"startTime":431.572,"endTime":432.672,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":432.672,"endTime":436.532,"body":"And then you don't just say, well, you"},{"startTime":432.672,"endTime":436.532,"body":"know, these types of decisions are taking"},{"startTime":436.532,"endTime":438.062,"body":"anywhere between two to four months."},{"startTime":438.292,"endTime":442.972,"body":"You've got to quantify that in terms that"},{"startTime":438.292,"endTime":442.972,"body":"the CFO understands, which is dollars."},{"startTime":443.222,"endTime":443.542,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":443.592,"endTime":447.882,"body":"Dollars lost, opportunity"},{"startTime":443.592,"endTime":447.882,"body":"cost those kinds of measures."},{"startTime":448.062,"endTime":453.182,"body":"If you can do that, then I think you'll"},{"startTime":448.062,"endTime":453.182,"body":"have a much easier time discussing ROI."},{"startTime":453.432,"endTime":458.392,"body":"Because you're right, ROI on something"},{"startTime":453.432,"endTime":458.392,"body":"like this isn't immediately you know,"},{"startTime":458.432,"endTime":460.522,"body":"it's not immediately perceptible, right?"},{"startTime":460.532,"endTime":462.222,"body":"You have to wait a little bit."},{"startTime":462.492,"endTime":466.922,"body":"Initially, people will see that their"},{"startTime":462.492,"endTime":466.922,"body":"performance will go down a bit because"},{"startTime":467.092,"endTime":468.772,"body":"they're learning a new way of working."},{"startTime":469.022,"endTime":470.002,"body":"So it will go down a bit."},{"startTime":470.012,"endTime":472.722,"body":"Then it will go back up again and"},{"startTime":470.012,"endTime":472.722,"body":"it will surpass where they were."},{"startTime":472.972,"endTime":479.602,"body":"So you have to convince the CFO, anybody"},{"startTime":472.972,"endTime":479.602,"body":"at the C suite that they're in it for at"},{"startTime":479.602,"endTime":484.012,"body":"least as long as it takes to get the, the,"},{"startTime":479.602,"endTime":484.012,"body":"the results, the initial results, right?"},{"startTime":484.442,"endTime":487.762,"body":"But to do that, you have to focus on"},{"startTime":484.442,"endTime":487.762,"body":"where they're hurting the most now."},{"startTime":488.012,"endTime":488.442,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":488.492,"endTime":494.872,"body":"would it not also be Difficult to give"},{"startTime":488.492,"endTime":494.872,"body":"them this extrapolation if they are"},{"startTime":494.872,"endTime":497.812,"body":"only looking in a shorter term, like"},{"startTime":494.872,"endTime":497.812,"body":"if they're only looking quarter to"},{"startTime":497.812,"endTime":501.912,"body":"quarter and you're, you're trying to say"},{"startTime":497.812,"endTime":501.912,"body":"like, well, like I, as the enterprise"},{"startTime":501.912,"endTime":505.252,"body":"business agility coach I'm looking"},{"startTime":501.912,"endTime":505.252,"body":"to make a permanent change to the way"},{"startTime":505.282,"endTime":510.712,"body":"your organization works with the sub"},{"startTime":505.282,"endTime":510.712,"body":"organizations that are part of it."},{"startTime":510.712,"endTime":512.192,"body":"Like the, you know, the"},{"startTime":510.712,"endTime":512.192,"body":"hierarchy or whatever."},{"startTime":512.512,"endTime":514.822,"body":"But I'm looking to make"},{"startTime":512.512,"endTime":514.822,"body":"a permanent change."},{"startTime":515.042,"endTime":518.612,"body":"So you can't measure a permanent change"},{"startTime":515.042,"endTime":518.612,"body":"over the next six weeks or whatever."},{"startTime":518.622,"endTime":522.472,"body":"You need to look at the next six years"},{"startTime":518.622,"endTime":522.472,"body":"to measure this permanent change."},{"startTime":522.472,"endTime":526.292,"body":"And if they don't have a baseline"},{"startTime":522.472,"endTime":526.292,"body":"of the previous two years , be"},{"startTime":526.292,"endTime":529.262,"body":"just because they're not finance"},{"startTime":526.292,"endTime":529.262,"body":"doesn't think that way or the"},{"startTime":529.272,"endTime":530.532,"body":"business units don't think that way."},{"startTime":530.532,"endTime":533.292,"body":"They're just trying to survive"},{"startTime":530.532,"endTime":533.292,"body":"for another three months."},{"startTime":533.562,"endTime":538.252,"body":"Like how do you shift them into saying"},{"startTime":533.562,"endTime":538.252,"body":"like, Hey, Let's look at a longer term."},{"startTime":538.502,"endTime":542.752,"body":"I think you do that by looking at"},{"startTime":538.502,"endTime":542.752,"body":"The one of the top pain points they"},{"startTime":542.752,"endTime":546.852,"body":"have and figuring out what it's"},{"startTime":542.752,"endTime":546.852,"body":"costing them Whether it's delayed"},{"startTime":547.032,"endTime":551.772,"body":"time in decision making, whether"},{"startTime":547.032,"endTime":551.772,"body":"it's delayed time to market, right?"},{"startTime":551.882,"endTime":554.802,"body":"And then you make small changes;"},{"startTime":551.882,"endTime":554.802,"body":"you're not gonna be able to make"},{"startTime":554.812,"endTime":556.422,"body":"a permanent change quickly here."},{"startTime":556.542,"endTime":559.932,"body":"It's just, there's no appetite for"},{"startTime":556.542,"endTime":559.932,"body":"that because they don't see that"},{"startTime":559.952,"endTime":561.792,"body":"they see that as very risk laden."},{"startTime":562.212,"endTime":564.022,"body":"So make a small change."},{"startTime":564.162,"endTime":569.562,"body":"Measure it and then say, if"},{"startTime":564.162,"endTime":569.562,"body":"we can do this in a few weeks,"},{"startTime":569.812,"endTime":571.412,"body":"what can we do in a few months?"},{"startTime":571.712,"endTime":573.102,"body":"that's how I would position that."},{"startTime":573.352,"endTime":577.632,"body":"So effectively what you're doing"},{"startTime":573.352,"endTime":577.632,"body":"is taking a small area that you"},{"startTime":577.642,"endTime":582.842,"body":"know is hurting a lot and almost"},{"startTime":577.642,"endTime":582.842,"body":"like piloting this stuff, right?"},{"startTime":582.892,"endTime":584.652,"body":"And showing them early results."},{"startTime":584.902,"endTime":589.292,"body":"And that becomes a showcase for you"},{"startTime":584.902,"endTime":589.292,"body":"that you can illustrate, especially"},{"startTime":589.302,"endTime":591.162,"body":"those that are dragging their feet."},{"startTime":591.272,"endTime":593.522,"body":"I'm not sure if this stuff"},{"startTime":591.272,"endTime":593.522,"body":"is going to work, right?"},{"startTime":593.772,"endTime":596.772,"body":"You can prove that with hard"},{"startTime":593.772,"endTime":596.772,"body":"numbers that it actually works"},{"startTime":597.182,"endTime":598.582,"body":"over a shorter period of time."},{"startTime":598.902,"endTime":602.112,"body":"That's subjective, but it could"},{"startTime":598.902,"endTime":602.112,"body":"be anywhere from a few weeks"},{"startTime":602.112,"endTime":605.642,"body":"to a couple of months to two,"},{"startTime":602.112,"endTime":605.642,"body":"three months, a quarter, right?"},{"startTime":605.812,"endTime":608.642,"body":"You should be able to tell in"},{"startTime":605.812,"endTime":608.642,"body":"a quarter whether those things"},{"startTime":608.642,"endTime":609.732,"body":"are making a difference or not."},{"startTime":609.782,"endTime":613.512,"body":"A lot of people will say you can't"},{"startTime":609.782,"endTime":613.512,"body":"measure culture, but in, in, in"},{"startTime":613.512,"endTime":616.112,"body":"episode one, I probably should stop"},{"startTime":613.512,"endTime":616.112,"body":"and figure out what the episode was."},{"startTime":616.112,"endTime":617.812,"body":"It was either one 89 or one 90."},{"startTime":618.042,"endTime":620.182,"body":"It was when we were talking"},{"startTime":618.042,"endTime":620.182,"body":"about having disagreements with"},{"startTime":620.262,"endTime":621.392,"body":"your engineering leadership."},{"startTime":621.432,"endTime":625.302,"body":"That was one of the podcasts and in"},{"startTime":621.432,"endTime":625.302,"body":"that podcast, we talked about the book"},{"startTime":625.302,"endTime":629.542,"body":"accelerate and in accelerate, they"},{"startTime":625.302,"endTime":629.542,"body":"kind of dispelled the myth that you"},{"startTime":629.772,"endTime":631.812,"body":"like, that you can't measure culture."},{"startTime":631.812,"endTime":633.442,"body":"They said, no, you absolutely."},{"startTime":633.692,"endTime":637.052,"body":"Can measure culture you can do surveys"},{"startTime":633.692,"endTime":637.052,"body":"and like a lot of people will like at"},{"startTime":637.052,"endTime":638.622,"body":"that point Like things start breaking in."},{"startTime":638.752,"endTime":640.222,"body":"I was like, oh, I don't"},{"startTime":638.752,"endTime":640.222,"body":"want to do a survey."},{"startTime":640.222,"endTime":643.162,"body":"It's too difficult Like I don't I"},{"startTime":640.222,"endTime":643.162,"body":"don't even know how to write a survey."},{"startTime":643.162,"endTime":646.102,"body":"So there's not bias involved"},{"startTime":643.162,"endTime":646.102,"body":"There's some skill involved"},{"startTime":646.102,"endTime":647.632,"body":"basically in writing a survey."},{"startTime":647.812,"endTime":652.142,"body":"But what they said was you"},{"startTime":647.812,"endTime":652.142,"body":"absolutely can measure culture But"},{"startTime":652.142,"endTime":653.112,"body":"you need to come up with a survey."},{"startTime":653.112,"endTime":656.902,"body":"So is it your experience that"},{"startTime":653.112,"endTime":656.902,"body":"maybe when you enter, you"},{"startTime":656.902,"endTime":657.962,"body":"want to measure the culture."},{"startTime":657.962,"endTime":659.972,"body":"And then when you're, you know,"},{"startTime":657.962,"endTime":659.972,"body":"whatever it's six months, three"},{"startTime":659.972,"endTime":663.542,"body":"months, I don't know what the, what"},{"startTime":659.972,"endTime":663.542,"body":"the right checking cadence is to keep"},{"startTime":663.552,"endTime":667.362,"body":"measuring the culture so that you"},{"startTime":663.552,"endTime":667.362,"body":"can give your c level leadership,"},{"startTime":667.382,"endTime":671.942,"body":"some kind of unbiased, unfiltered,"},{"startTime":667.382,"endTime":671.942,"body":"like, those are two things, right?"},{"startTime":671.972,"endTime":675.092,"body":"Unbiased and unfiltered, because those"},{"startTime":671.972,"endTime":675.092,"body":"are two things that I feel, if you're"},{"startTime":675.092,"endTime":678.602,"body":"an outsider, they're really paying"},{"startTime":675.092,"endTime":678.602,"body":"you for is unbiased and unfiltered."},{"startTime":678.712,"endTime":678.972,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":678.982,"endTime":681.872,"body":"Because I feel the role of a C"},{"startTime":678.982,"endTime":681.872,"body":"level executive, like, everything"},{"startTime":681.872,"endTime":686.752,"body":"is filtered by somebody's Bias or"},{"startTime":681.872,"endTime":686.752,"body":"outlook or hopes or dreams or whatever."},{"startTime":687.002,"endTime":687.242,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":687.242,"endTime":689.332,"body":"They've got to be able to sort"},{"startTime":687.242,"endTime":689.332,"body":"out the wheat from the shaft."},{"startTime":689.742,"endTime":694.312,"body":"So there is you know, there is a"},{"startTime":689.742,"endTime":694.312,"body":"technique where you can actually baseline"},{"startTime":694.322,"endTime":699.412,"body":"where the organization's at in terms"},{"startTime":694.322,"endTime":699.412,"body":"of their agility or rigidity, right?"},{"startTime":699.842,"endTime":704.202,"body":"If you can baseline that and yes,"},{"startTime":699.842,"endTime":704.202,"body":"surveys are just one mechanism."},{"startTime":704.202,"endTime":704.932,"body":"There are other mechanisms."},{"startTime":704.932,"endTime":707.111,"body":"Um, And You then put that away, right?"},{"startTime":707.121,"endTime":708.161,"body":"It's worth nothing."},{"startTime":708.171,"endTime":712.221,"body":"It's a snapshot in time, but it's"},{"startTime":708.171,"endTime":712.221,"body":"something you're going to dust off in"},{"startTime":712.221,"endTime":719.081,"body":"a few weeks and redo the same exact"},{"startTime":712.221,"endTime":719.081,"body":"baselining and put them side by side."},{"startTime":719.101,"endTime":723.861,"body":"I like to overlay those things so you"},{"startTime":719.101,"endTime":723.861,"body":"can see, for example, you can do these"},{"startTime":724.231,"endTime":726.001,"body":"hub and spoke type of diagrams, right?"},{"startTime":726.051,"endTime":727.171,"body":"On different elements."},{"startTime":727.201,"endTime":728.401,"body":"Let's say you have five elements."},{"startTime":728.581,"endTime":732.771,"body":"So you have five It's like a spider gram"},{"startTime":728.581,"endTime":732.771,"body":"is what I call it colloquially, but so"},{"startTime":732.771,"endTime":736.651,"body":"you can see on a scale of one to five"},{"startTime":732.771,"endTime":736.651,"body":"where everybody is based on the survey."},{"startTime":736.651,"endTime":737.711,"body":"Let's say there are threes."},{"startTime":737.961,"endTime":741.701,"body":"Next time you do it on some of those"},{"startTime":737.961,"endTime":741.701,"body":"folks, they may go up to fours."},{"startTime":741.951,"endTime":743.591,"body":"That shows progress, right?"},{"startTime":743.841,"endTime":745.861,"body":"And depending on the team."},{"startTime":746.281,"endTime":749.681,"body":"So when I say that, what I mean"},{"startTime":746.281,"endTime":749.681,"body":"is IT and people like that, that"},{"startTime":749.691,"endTime":754.021,"body":"they kind of know this agile way of"},{"startTime":749.691,"endTime":754.021,"body":"working, but maybe legal doesn't."},{"startTime":754.441,"endTime":758.151,"body":"So depending on what team you"},{"startTime":754.441,"endTime":758.151,"body":"have, That delta going from 3 to"},{"startTime":758.151,"endTime":761.201,"body":"4, it might only go from 3 to 3."},{"startTime":761.201,"endTime":761.221,"body":"5."},{"startTime":761.221,"endTime":761.531,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":761.631,"endTime":763.551,"body":"But that is a real change."},{"startTime":763.801,"endTime":768.031,"body":"Otherwise, those 3s in this"},{"startTime":763.801,"endTime":768.031,"body":"example, they're very hard to move."},{"startTime":768.081,"endTime":771.621,"body":"So if you can move it even half"},{"startTime":768.081,"endTime":771.621,"body":"a point, let's say in a month or"},{"startTime":771.641,"endTime":773.391,"body":"two months, that's real progress."},{"startTime":773.391,"endTime":774.711,"body":"You can show that, right?"},{"startTime":774.961,"endTime":776.631,"body":"So, I mean, I would do it that way."},{"startTime":777.051,"endTime":781.241,"body":"You know, the, the other thing that we"},{"startTime":777.051,"endTime":781.241,"body":"talk about in Transformations of any"},{"startTime":781.241,"endTime":784.181,"body":"kind of like whether we're, whether"},{"startTime":781.241,"endTime":784.181,"body":"we're old school and we talk about"},{"startTime":784.211,"endTime":788.151,"body":"agile transformations or whether we're,"},{"startTime":784.211,"endTime":788.151,"body":"talking about product operating model"},{"startTime":788.211,"endTime":792.251,"body":"Regardless of what it is,"},{"startTime":788.211,"endTime":792.251,"body":"everybody still agrees you need"},{"startTime":792.451,"endTime":795.331,"body":"like strong executive sponsorship."},{"startTime":795.671,"endTime":795.901,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":796.001,"endTime":799.731,"body":"I'm talking from the top, the"},{"startTime":796.001,"endTime":799.731,"body":"CEO basically needs to say"},{"startTime":799.751,"endTime":801.301,"body":"this is extremely important."},{"startTime":801.301,"endTime":806.271,"body":"It's existential to us as an organization"},{"startTime":801.301,"endTime":806.271,"body":"to be able to respond quickly to what"},{"startTime":806.271,"endTime":809.271,"body":"customers ask for and to turn around,"},{"startTime":806.271,"endTime":809.271,"body":"and like, they're, they're kind of"},{"startTime":809.271,"endTime":814.541,"body":"tapping you as the executive coach"},{"startTime":809.271,"endTime":814.541,"body":"to say, Hey, go out at the orgs, make"},{"startTime":814.541,"endTime":817.721,"body":"sure they're supported, make sure they"},{"startTime":814.541,"endTime":817.721,"body":"understand this important, like that,"},{"startTime":817.731,"endTime":819.791,"body":"that strong executive sponsorship."},{"startTime":820.141,"endTime":821.611,"body":"I don't feel it can come from."},{"startTime":821.861,"endTime":824.531,"body":"Again, this is just my"},{"startTime":821.861,"endTime":824.531,"body":"personal experience."},{"startTime":824.711,"endTime":828.931,"body":"But if it's not the CEO, I don't think"},{"startTime":824.711,"endTime":828.931,"body":"anybody else can replace that role."},{"startTime":828.971,"endTime":833.561,"body":"I don't think the C O O can say,"},{"startTime":828.971,"endTime":833.561,"body":"or the CTO can say, Oh, only people"},{"startTime":833.571,"endTime":837.231,"body":"under my branch in the organization,"},{"startTime":833.571,"endTime":837.231,"body":"all the development teams, all the"},{"startTime":837.231,"endTime":838.721,"body":"people that I directly supervise."},{"startTime":839.001,"endTime":842.991,"body":"They're going to be super agile, but"},{"startTime":839.001,"endTime":842.991,"body":"then the HR folks are all waterfall."},{"startTime":842.991,"endTime":844.561,"body":"And the finance people are all silo."},{"startTime":844.561,"endTime":847.271,"body":"And you don't get to talk to"},{"startTime":844.561,"endTime":847.271,"body":"the HR people are all silo."},{"startTime":847.271,"endTime":848.581,"body":"You don't get to talk to these people."},{"startTime":848.911,"endTime":849.351,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":849.351,"endTime":851.261,"body":"You got to go through"},{"startTime":849.351,"endTime":851.261,"body":"me or whatever barriers."},{"startTime":851.271,"endTime":855.111,"body":"So like you can't have agility and"},{"startTime":851.271,"endTime":855.111,"body":"bubbles in the organization because"},{"startTime":855.111,"endTime":858.991,"body":"they'll, they'll again, just my"},{"startTime":855.111,"endTime":858.991,"body":"experience, everybody else beat me up"},{"startTime":858.991,"endTime":863.771,"body":"in the comments if you want to, because"},{"startTime":858.991,"endTime":863.771,"body":"that bubble will survive and thrive."},{"startTime":863.801,"endTime":865.171,"body":"As long as that leader is there."},{"startTime":865.421,"endTime":868.271,"body":", and then as soon as that"},{"startTime":865.421,"endTime":868.271,"body":"person leaves, now that bubble"},{"startTime":868.271,"endTime":870.941,"body":"is exposed and will degrade."},{"startTime":871.121,"endTime":871.421,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":871.481,"endTime":871.811,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":871.901,"endTime":874.421,"body":"I, I'd say, you know, those"},{"startTime":871.901,"endTime":874.421,"body":"bubbles are short-lived."},{"startTime":874.521,"endTime":878.541,"body":"It's, it's a bit like not having"},{"startTime":874.521,"endTime":878.541,"body":"the captain of a ship involved"},{"startTime":878.541,"endTime":879.861,"body":"in the plan where you're going."},{"startTime":879.921,"endTime":880.101,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":880.391,"endTime":881.351,"body":"And endorse that."},{"startTime":881.351,"endTime":881.591,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":881.841,"endTime":882.591,"body":"You know, almost."},{"startTime":882.841,"endTime":884.201,"body":"Basically put down the edict."},{"startTime":884.211,"endTime":885.161,"body":"This is where we're heading."},{"startTime":885.551,"endTime":888.441,"body":"This is how how quickly we"},{"startTime":885.551,"endTime":888.441,"body":"need to get there, right?"},{"startTime":888.691,"endTime":893.681,"body":"So yeah, I agree with you if if there's"},{"startTime":888.691,"endTime":893.681,"body":"not executive sponsorship, it's not gonna"},{"startTime":893.681,"endTime":899.301,"body":"work It'll sputter for a while and then it"},{"startTime":893.681,"endTime":899.301,"body":"will fall down again People will go back"},{"startTime":899.441,"endTime":903.671,"body":"to what they know best which is the way"},{"startTime":899.441,"endTime":903.671,"body":"they've working before Because they're not"},{"startTime":903.671,"endTime":909.161,"body":"really held to you know account right for"},{"startTime":903.671,"endTime":909.161,"body":"by the CEO on this So grassroot movements"},{"startTime":909.161,"endTime":912.051,"body":"don't really transform organizations."},{"startTime":912.241,"endTime":912.881,"body":"They just don't."},{"startTime":913.381,"endTime":916.191,"body":"I mean, they, they can go so far."},{"startTime":916.391,"endTime":917.251,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":917.521,"endTime":922.111,"body":"But, but also like grassroots movements"},{"startTime":917.521,"endTime":922.111,"body":"that like evolve around a, a person"},{"startTime":922.111,"endTime":926.231,"body":"or an idea or whatever, like you're,"},{"startTime":922.111,"endTime":926.231,"body":"you're up against people's identities."},{"startTime":926.231,"endTime":927.811,"body":"You're up against people's education."},{"startTime":927.821,"endTime":931.261,"body":"Like maybe they just don't know any better"},{"startTime":927.821,"endTime":931.261,"body":"to like what you were saying is like,"},{"startTime":931.261,"endTime":932.431,"body":"this is the way they were brought up."},{"startTime":932.451,"endTime":934.801,"body":"They just don't know any better."},{"startTime":934.861,"endTime":935.091,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":935.141,"endTime":936.951,"body":"They're not purposefully trying."},{"startTime":937.201,"endTime":941.421,"body":"It's just they don't know any other"},{"startTime":937.201,"endTime":941.421,"body":"techniques, you know, absolutely."},{"startTime":941.671,"endTime":943.651,"body":"I resistance from middle management."},{"startTime":943.671,"endTime":945.481,"body":"We talk about that one"},{"startTime":943.671,"endTime":945.481,"body":"a lot on the podcast."},{"startTime":945.581,"endTime":950.401,"body":"Assuming everything is best case scenario,"},{"startTime":945.581,"endTime":950.401,"body":"you're being employed by the C suite."},{"startTime":950.471,"endTime":951.461,"body":"This is an important thing."},{"startTime":951.461,"endTime":954.381,"body":"The CEO has made the,"},{"startTime":951.461,"endTime":954.381,"body":"this is a strategic thing."},{"startTime":954.631,"endTime":955.821,"body":"We're not going to worry about ROI."},{"startTime":955.861,"endTime":958.381,"body":"We're not going to worry about, you"},{"startTime":955.861,"endTime":958.381,"body":"know, where the cost is coming from."},{"startTime":958.671,"endTime":960.111,"body":"This, the CEO has made a point."},{"startTime":960.111,"endTime":961.161,"body":"This is important for us."},{"startTime":961.411,"endTime":962.261,"body":"Let's make it happen."},{"startTime":962.511,"endTime":967.421,"body":"And then you get deployed and you realize"},{"startTime":962.511,"endTime":967.421,"body":"there's really no incentive, for the"},{"startTime":967.441,"endTime":971.941,"body":"middle management tier of the organization"},{"startTime":967.441,"endTime":971.941,"body":"to change their ways of working."},{"startTime":972.191,"endTime":972.911,"body":"How do you deal with that?"},{"startTime":973.001,"endTime":975.361,"body":"This is extremely common,"},{"startTime":973.001,"endTime":975.361,"body":"first of all, right?"},{"startTime":975.751,"endTime":977.531,"body":"And it's because there's a disconnect."},{"startTime":977.811,"endTime":981.721,"body":"There's a disconnect because the"},{"startTime":977.811,"endTime":981.721,"body":"CEO simply puts the messaging"},{"startTime":981.721,"endTime":983.441,"body":"down from the top, right?"},{"startTime":983.551,"endTime":983.761,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":983.801,"endTime":985.801,"body":"And it comes across as an imperative."},{"startTime":985.841,"endTime":987.551,"body":"This is how you should do this."},{"startTime":987.801,"endTime":990.661,"body":"Immediately, those middle managers"},{"startTime":987.801,"endTime":990.661,"body":"start feeling a little bit confident."},{"startTime":991.006,"endTime":992.286,"body":"Bothered under the collar, right?"},{"startTime":992.536,"endTime":993.666,"body":"What's going to happen to us?"},{"startTime":993.826,"endTime":995.366,"body":"So there's that fear, right?"},{"startTime":995.376,"endTime":995.946,"body":"First of all."},{"startTime":996.276,"endTime":998.556,"body":"The other thing is they don't"},{"startTime":996.276,"endTime":998.556,"body":"know anything to your point."},{"startTime":998.566,"endTime":1001.866,"body":"They don't know what's different"},{"startTime":998.566,"endTime":1001.866,"body":"about agile ways of working."},{"startTime":1001.866,"endTime":1007.786,"body":"So as a coach, one of the things that I"},{"startTime":1001.866,"endTime":1007.786,"body":"focus on is, is training that layer, the"},{"startTime":1007.796,"endTime":1011.146,"body":"middle management, and really a swaging."},{"startTime":1011.216,"endTime":1012.396,"body":"I haven't used that word in a while."},{"startTime":1012.406,"endTime":1015.376,"body":"Their fear that they're not"},{"startTime":1012.406,"endTime":1015.376,"body":"going to lose their jobs."},{"startTime":1015.626,"endTime":1018.356,"body":"They're actually maybe going"},{"startTime":1015.626,"endTime":1018.356,"body":"to learn new skills now."},{"startTime":1018.606,"endTime":1020.866,"body":"That they can, you know, that"},{"startTime":1018.606,"endTime":1020.866,"body":"they can use in their work."},{"startTime":1021.186,"endTime":1023.326,"body":"So if you can do that."},{"startTime":1023.576,"endTime":1027.256,"body":"Successfully, I think you'll have,"},{"startTime":1023.576,"endTime":1027.256,"body":"you know, you'll have success"},{"startTime":1027.296,"endTime":1029.166,"body":"in the overall transformation."},{"startTime":1029.416,"endTime":1032.476,"body":"You're always going to get, having said"},{"startTime":1029.416,"endTime":1032.476,"body":"that, you're always going to get some"},{"startTime":1032.476,"endTime":1036.536,"body":"people that are just so set in their ways"},{"startTime":1032.476,"endTime":1036.536,"body":"of working and their ways of thinking,"},{"startTime":1036.966,"endTime":1038.876,"body":"they will fight you tooth and nail."},{"startTime":1038.916,"endTime":1039.186,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1039.286,"endTime":1039.816,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1040.146,"endTime":1041.026,"body":"Now you have a choice."},{"startTime":1041.056,"endTime":1045.956,"body":"You can either go up above them and say,"},{"startTime":1041.056,"endTime":1045.956,"body":"you know, I have some troublemakers here."},{"startTime":1046.356,"endTime":1048.136,"body":"And deal with it that way."},{"startTime":1048.306,"endTime":1050.446,"body":"It doesn't work that well"},{"startTime":1048.306,"endTime":1050.446,"body":"if you do it that way."},{"startTime":1050.696,"endTime":1053.976,"body":"Or you could say, look, you"},{"startTime":1050.696,"endTime":1053.976,"body":"do what you want to do, okay?"},{"startTime":1054.226,"endTime":1055.646,"body":"If you're not comfortable, fine."},{"startTime":1055.946,"endTime":1058.756,"body":"But your peers are going"},{"startTime":1055.946,"endTime":1058.756,"body":"to come along for the ride."},{"startTime":1059.116,"endTime":1060.596,"body":"And talk to them."},{"startTime":1060.846,"endTime":1064.326,"body":"So it's not a coach coming in saying,"},{"startTime":1060.846,"endTime":1064.326,"body":"you know, you need to do this."},{"startTime":1064.686,"endTime":1065.286,"body":"Or else."},{"startTime":1065.536,"endTime":1069.106,"body":"After a little bit, they'll see that"},{"startTime":1065.536,"endTime":1069.106,"body":"their peers are actually happier."},{"startTime":1069.326,"endTime":1070.176,"body":"They're working better."},{"startTime":1070.176,"endTime":1074.416,"body":"Their teams are producing more and they'll"},{"startTime":1070.176,"endTime":1074.416,"body":"come along, but you need to be there"},{"startTime":1074.416,"endTime":1076.496,"body":"to support them the whole way through."},{"startTime":1076.506,"endTime":1076.746,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1076.746,"endTime":1080.066,"body":"Including, you know, providing them"},{"startTime":1076.746,"endTime":1080.066,"body":"with the training, the reassurance,"},{"startTime":1080.076,"endTime":1081.356,"body":"they won't be losing their jobs."},{"startTime":1081.606,"endTime":1085.476,"body":"Having said all of that, sometimes"},{"startTime":1081.606,"endTime":1085.476,"body":"they will lose their jobs, right?"},{"startTime":1085.496,"endTime":1087.506,"body":"But that's not a decision"},{"startTime":1085.496,"endTime":1087.506,"body":"that a coach makes."},{"startTime":1087.786,"endTime":1089.556,"body":"That is a decision that's independent."},{"startTime":1089.856,"endTime":1094.296,"body":"Regardless of whether the organization"},{"startTime":1089.856,"endTime":1094.296,"body":"was adopting agile ways of working or"},{"startTime":1094.296,"endTime":1096.126,"body":"not, that was going to happen anyway."},{"startTime":1096.376,"endTime":1096.696,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1096.926,"endTime":1100.766,"body":"So you've got to make that"},{"startTime":1096.926,"endTime":1100.766,"body":"clear to those middle layer,"},{"startTime":1101.016,"endTime":1102.526,"body":"typically the managers, directors."},{"startTime":1102.911,"endTime":1106.871,"body":"Is, this is not you coming"},{"startTime":1102.911,"endTime":1106.871,"body":"in and wielding the hatchet."},{"startTime":1106.901,"endTime":1107.111,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1107.231,"endTime":1109.091,"body":"This was gonna happen if it happens."},{"startTime":1109.151,"endTime":1109.391,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1109.641,"endTime":1113.001,"body":"Well, I, I, I mean, to be honest,"},{"startTime":1109.641,"endTime":1113.001,"body":"I, I really haven't seen, like,"},{"startTime":1113.001,"endTime":1116.151,"body":"I think that's more like a"},{"startTime":1113.001,"endTime":1116.151,"body":"fairytale, you folktale whatever."},{"startTime":1116.401,"endTime":1117.901,"body":"I like a more than more"},{"startTime":1116.401,"endTime":1117.901,"body":"than anything else."},{"startTime":1117.901,"endTime":1119.671,"body":"It's like, oh, middle"},{"startTime":1117.901,"endTime":1119.671,"body":"management's gonna lose your jobs."},{"startTime":1119.671,"endTime":1122.701,"body":"Because normally what happens in"},{"startTime":1119.671,"endTime":1122.701,"body":"my experience is middle management,"},{"startTime":1123.091,"endTime":1124.231,"body":"they don't lose their jobs."},{"startTime":1124.441,"endTime":1127.681,"body":"Their jobs change to,"},{"startTime":1124.441,"endTime":1127.681,"body":"like, we need people."},{"startTime":1127.931,"endTime":1133.951,"body":"We need people that can hire and"},{"startTime":1127.931,"endTime":1133.951,"body":"can spot and hire talent and then"},{"startTime":1133.971,"endTime":1136.661,"body":"can work to coach and retain talent."},{"startTime":1136.871,"endTime":1143.591,"body":"And that's where the middle management,"},{"startTime":1136.871,"endTime":1143.591,"body":"they pivot to become these mentors"},{"startTime":1143.591,"endTime":1147.661,"body":"and coaches in the middle of these"},{"startTime":1143.591,"endTime":1147.661,"body":"cross team mentors and coaches."},{"startTime":1147.911,"endTime":1150.991,"body":"And I mean, yeah, I totally get like"},{"startTime":1147.911,"endTime":1150.991,"body":"some people just aren't gonna like"},{"startTime":1150.991,"endTime":1152.321,"body":"they're, they're command control."},{"startTime":1152.531,"endTime":1153.391,"body":"They don't see a reason."},{"startTime":1153.401,"endTime":1155.021,"body":"Like I just, I told you how to do it."},{"startTime":1155.151,"endTime":1157.111,"body":"Coaching is not in their toolkit."},{"startTime":1157.191,"endTime":1157.391,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1157.391,"endTime":1158.781,"body":"Empathy is not in their toolkit."},{"startTime":1159.061,"endTime":1161.131,"body":"if you're going through something"},{"startTime":1159.061,"endTime":1161.131,"body":"like this, do you feel those"},{"startTime":1161.131,"endTime":1163.491,"body":"people are sticking out already?"},{"startTime":1163.571,"endTime":1165.031,"body":"Like before you even go through."},{"startTime":1165.281,"endTime":1167.301,"body":"Yeah, the coaching exercises for sure."},{"startTime":1167.381,"endTime":1169.621,"body":"I mean, you can see it right away."},{"startTime":1169.641,"endTime":1171.721,"body":"You know who's gonna be a stickler there."},{"startTime":1171.971,"endTime":1173.271,"body":"So yeah, absolutely agree."},{"startTime":1173.701,"endTime":1176.681,"body":"Yeah, those are the people, like you"},{"startTime":1173.701,"endTime":1176.681,"body":"said, you know, their jobs will change."},{"startTime":1176.701,"endTime":1179.661,"body":"They will be the people that make sure"},{"startTime":1176.701,"endTime":1179.661,"body":"they look after the people, right?"},{"startTime":1179.661,"endTime":1183.061,"body":"So their teams making sure that the"},{"startTime":1179.661,"endTime":1183.061,"body":"teams have training and have all"},{"startTime":1183.101,"endTime":1184.421,"body":"the tooling they need, et cetera."},{"startTime":1184.471,"endTime":1184.691,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1184.941,"endTime":1189.431,"body":"In, in essence, they're becoming"},{"startTime":1184.941,"endTime":1189.431,"body":"true managers of their people."},{"startTime":1189.806,"endTime":1190.166,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1190.446,"endTime":1192.736,"body":"I don't know what they were doing"},{"startTime":1190.446,"endTime":1192.736,"body":"before, but I'm sure there was a whole"},{"startTime":1192.736,"endTime":1196.246,"body":"bunch of admin stuff they were doing"},{"startTime":1192.736,"endTime":1196.246,"body":"that possibly doesn't need to be done."},{"startTime":1196.496,"endTime":1197.926,"body":"We're going to flip the advantages now."},{"startTime":1197.996,"endTime":1202.806,"body":"The number one benefit, ideally for"},{"startTime":1197.996,"endTime":1202.806,"body":"the C suite is when we do this, we're"},{"startTime":1202.806,"endTime":1207.556,"body":"going to be more strategically aligned"},{"startTime":1202.806,"endTime":1207.556,"body":"because what we closer to customers."},{"startTime":1207.826,"endTime":1210.196,"body":"We'll be better strategically aligned."},{"startTime":1210.446,"endTime":1213.736,"body":"So if you're in this organization that"},{"startTime":1210.446,"endTime":1213.736,"body":"you clearly see, like, Oh, they, they,"},{"startTime":1213.876,"endTime":1217.136,"body":"people are just like, they're moving at"},{"startTime":1213.876,"endTime":1217.136,"body":"the speed of middle management or moving"},{"startTime":1217.136,"endTime":1222.336,"body":"at the speed of bureaucracy, and now we"},{"startTime":1217.136,"endTime":1222.336,"body":"might, we want to move at the speed of"},{"startTime":1222.346,"endTime":1225.926,"body":"what is the most strategically impactful."},{"startTime":1226.176,"endTime":1230.096,"body":"I mean, this is like the, the"},{"startTime":1226.176,"endTime":1230.096,"body":"doing the right thing versus doing"},{"startTime":1230.266,"endTime":1231.236,"body":"the, you know, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1231.506,"endTime":1232.956,"body":"Where do you start at that?"},{"startTime":1232.956,"endTime":1236.636,"body":"Because that's, that seems such"},{"startTime":1232.956,"endTime":1236.636,"body":"an overwhelming task of like all"},{"startTime":1236.636,"endTime":1239.166,"body":"your teams could be working on"},{"startTime":1236.636,"endTime":1239.166,"body":"whatever they think is important."},{"startTime":1239.416,"endTime":1241.166,"body":"But there's no strategic alignment."},{"startTime":1241.176,"endTime":1245.506,"body":"Maybe there's not like strong central"},{"startTime":1241.176,"endTime":1245.506,"body":"product leadership to be like, this is"},{"startTime":1245.516,"endTime":1247.176,"body":"definitely the most important thing."},{"startTime":1247.426,"endTime":1248.396,"body":"It's tested."},{"startTime":1248.546,"endTime":1249.766,"body":"We have strategies."},{"startTime":1249.956,"endTime":1252.916,"body":"We, those strategies are written"},{"startTime":1249.956,"endTime":1252.916,"body":"down somewhere, you know, and they've"},{"startTime":1252.916,"endTime":1255.596,"body":"actually filtered into product"},{"startTime":1252.916,"endTime":1255.596,"body":"backlogs as opposed to like someone"},{"startTime":1255.596,"endTime":1256.836,"body":"just cooked them up overnight."},{"startTime":1257.056,"endTime":1258.846,"body":"It seems overwhelming."},{"startTime":1258.846,"endTime":1262.226,"body":"If you're talking about a company"},{"startTime":1258.846,"endTime":1262.226,"body":"of like 10, 000 plus people."},{"startTime":1262.561,"endTime":1266.231,"body":"Let alone like forget a hundred"},{"startTime":1262.561,"endTime":1266.231,"body":"thousand plus global organization."},{"startTime":1266.591,"endTime":1272.051,"body":"It seems overwhelming to go from like"},{"startTime":1266.591,"endTime":1272.051,"body":"zero to all of our teams are aligned"},{"startTime":1272.051,"endTime":1275.511,"body":"to the most important thing, yeah,"},{"startTime":1272.051,"endTime":1275.511,"body":"well, it certainly can be right."},{"startTime":1275.511,"endTime":1278.821,"body":"So between those two extremes,"},{"startTime":1275.511,"endTime":1278.821,"body":"there's a big continuum."},{"startTime":1278.911,"endTime":1279.151,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1279.211,"endTime":1280.716,"body":"So you would start with."},{"startTime":1280.966,"endTime":1284.466,"body":"Talking to the CEO or whoever's making"},{"startTime":1280.966,"endTime":1284.466,"body":"the decision to bring you in and"},{"startTime":1284.466,"endTime":1288.316,"body":"figuring out where are they hurting"},{"startTime":1284.466,"endTime":1288.316,"body":"the most and make an impact there."},{"startTime":1288.326,"endTime":1291.216,"body":"You're not going to be able to"},{"startTime":1288.326,"endTime":1291.216,"body":"change a large organization, even"},{"startTime":1291.216,"endTime":1294.476,"body":"tens of thousands, forget hundreds"},{"startTime":1291.216,"endTime":1294.476,"body":"of thousands in one fell swoop."},{"startTime":1294.886,"endTime":1298.406,"body":"So go in and figure out with"},{"startTime":1294.886,"endTime":1298.406,"body":"the help of the C suite,"},{"startTime":1298.456,"endTime":1300.506,"body":"where are they really hurting?"},{"startTime":1300.566,"endTime":1301.956,"body":"What's their biggest pain point?"},{"startTime":1302.126,"endTime":1302.506,"body":"If it's."},{"startTime":1302.756,"endTime":1305.046,"body":"No, they don't have"},{"startTime":1302.756,"endTime":1305.046,"body":"clarity around product."},{"startTime":1305.386,"endTime":1306.466,"body":"Who are their customers?"},{"startTime":1306.486,"endTime":1309.616,"body":"If they don't know that we can"},{"startTime":1306.486,"endTime":1309.616,"body":"have sessions around that and"},{"startTime":1309.656,"endTime":1311.126,"body":"sharpen the thinking there."},{"startTime":1311.206,"endTime":1311.556,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1311.976,"endTime":1315.546,"body":"So you're basically, it's"},{"startTime":1311.976,"endTime":1315.546,"body":"like Who was the sculptor?"},{"startTime":1315.566,"endTime":1316.676,"body":"I can't remember the guy's name."},{"startTime":1316.686,"endTime":1321.206,"body":"Anyway, any sculptor, all the"},{"startTime":1316.686,"endTime":1321.206,"body":"sculptors I know are because I,"},{"startTime":1321.456,"endTime":1323.926,"body":"because I watched teenage mutant"},{"startTime":1321.456,"endTime":1323.926,"body":"Ninja Turtles in the eighties."},{"startTime":1323.926,"endTime":1325.456,"body":"That's the only reason"},{"startTime":1323.926,"endTime":1325.456,"body":"I know any sculptors."},{"startTime":1325.706,"endTime":1327.266,"body":"Michelangelo, Michelangelo."},{"startTime":1327.266,"endTime":1328.105,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1328.106,"endTime":1329.496,"body":"And he was radical dude."},{"startTime":1329.746,"endTime":1330.606,"body":"So it's Chuck Norris."},{"startTime":1330.836,"endTime":1334.186,"body":"Yeah, so what we got to do, so"},{"startTime":1330.836,"endTime":1334.186,"body":"we've got to chip away at the"},{"startTime":1334.476,"endTime":1338.926,"body":"sculpture slowly where it starts"},{"startTime":1334.476,"endTime":1338.926,"body":"to, you know, form a shape, right?"},{"startTime":1339.176,"endTime":1341.006,"body":"But you know, where do you start?"},{"startTime":1341.446,"endTime":1345.056,"body":"That's the key thing and, and"},{"startTime":1341.446,"endTime":1345.056,"body":"you use their guidance on this."},{"startTime":1345.116,"endTime":1346.526,"body":"I mean, where are they hurting the most?"},{"startTime":1346.526,"endTime":1351.736,"body":"What if you encounter bubbles in the"},{"startTime":1346.526,"endTime":1351.736,"body":"organization that are like siloed"},{"startTime":1352.136,"endTime":1356.356,"body":"agile transformation attempts through,"},{"startTime":1352.136,"endTime":1356.356,"body":"you know, maybe I was going to say"},{"startTime":1356.356,"endTime":1359.906,"body":"competent leaders, but what I really"},{"startTime":1356.356,"endTime":1359.906,"body":"mean is like, like leaders tried to"},{"startTime":1359.906,"endTime":1363.076,"body":"move things in the, in the, in the"},{"startTime":1359.906,"endTime":1363.076,"body":"direction, but like only a little bubble."},{"startTime":1363.306,"endTime":1366.136,"body":"So, you know, you're going, you're"},{"startTime":1363.306,"endTime":1366.136,"body":"sweeping across the whole organization."},{"startTime":1366.206,"endTime":1367.726,"body":"Maybe you see things that are working."},{"startTime":1368.046,"endTime":1369.196,"body":"Like, do you try to."},{"startTime":1369.446,"endTime":1370.996,"body":"Capitalize on those things."},{"startTime":1370.996,"endTime":1372.646,"body":"Are you, do you try to like even them out?"},{"startTime":1372.646,"endTime":1374.516,"body":"Like how, how have you"},{"startTime":1372.646,"endTime":1374.516,"body":"ever encountered that?"},{"startTime":1374.516,"endTime":1375.706,"body":"Like, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1376.046,"endTime":1380.286,"body":"Especially when you look at teams"},{"startTime":1376.046,"endTime":1380.286,"body":"that are, for example software teams,"},{"startTime":1380.296,"endTime":1383.826,"body":"right, you'll see that they've already"},{"startTime":1380.296,"endTime":1383.826,"body":"started to do things in that way because"},{"startTime":1383.856,"endTime":1385.526,"body":"people have come across it before."},{"startTime":1385.976,"endTime":1388.586,"body":"I would look at how"},{"startTime":1385.976,"endTime":1388.586,"body":"they're doing first, right."},{"startTime":1389.076,"endTime":1392.936,"body":"And if they're doing well, then yeah,"},{"startTime":1389.076,"endTime":1392.936,"body":"you would then look at the next bubble."},{"startTime":1392.936,"endTime":1395.146,"body":"If they're doing well, what are"},{"startTime":1392.936,"endTime":1395.146,"body":"some of the good things that"},{"startTime":1395.146,"endTime":1397.116,"body":"they're doing and combine those."},{"startTime":1397.501,"endTime":1399.971,"body":"And start to get the the"},{"startTime":1397.501,"endTime":1399.971,"body":"power of many, right?"},{"startTime":1400.371,"endTime":1405.031,"body":"But at the same time you've got to be"},{"startTime":1400.371,"endTime":1405.031,"body":"open to looking at some of those anti"},{"startTime":1405.031,"endTime":1409.711,"body":"patterns that they may be practicing"},{"startTime":1405.031,"endTime":1409.711,"body":"unbeknownst to them And point those"},{"startTime":1409.731,"endTime":1413.761,"body":"out and say if we tweak those we"},{"startTime":1409.731,"endTime":1413.761,"body":"could be so much better, right?"},{"startTime":1414.011,"endTime":1418.051,"body":"And then try that out on one bubble And"},{"startTime":1414.011,"endTime":1418.051,"body":"instill that across across the board."},{"startTime":1418.061,"endTime":1421.961,"body":"So yeah, it's like it's like when"},{"startTime":1418.061,"endTime":1421.961,"body":"I put a A piece of film on my phone"},{"startTime":1422.001,"endTime":1424.121,"body":"it bubbles Consolidate all of those."},{"startTime":1424.621,"endTime":1428.051,"body":"But yeah, definitely, there's a lot"},{"startTime":1424.621,"endTime":1428.051,"body":"of there's a lot of benefit, first of"},{"startTime":1428.051,"endTime":1432.441,"body":"all, if there's pockets that are truly"},{"startTime":1428.051,"endTime":1432.441,"body":"moving in the right direction, even"},{"startTime":1432.441,"endTime":1433.861,"body":"if they're not completely aligned."},{"startTime":1434.111,"endTime":1437.871,"body":"Because your job is to simply nudge them"},{"startTime":1434.111,"endTime":1437.871,"body":"here and, you know, here and there, right?"},{"startTime":1438.121,"endTime":1439.111,"body":"That's a lot easier."},{"startTime":1439.361,"endTime":1443.871,"body":"Then going into a brand new situation"},{"startTime":1439.361,"endTime":1443.871,"body":"where you have to train everybody and you"},{"startTime":1443.871,"endTime":1446.321,"body":"have to shift their mindset, basically."},{"startTime":1446.801,"endTime":1449.651,"body":"So if they're already starting to think"},{"startTime":1446.801,"endTime":1449.651,"body":"that way, it makes it easier for you."},{"startTime":1449.901,"endTime":1454.231,"body":"What are the common pitfalls that you"},{"startTime":1449.901,"endTime":1454.231,"body":"will encounter, with regard to risks"},{"startTime":1454.231,"endTime":1457.491,"body":"that you're, that you're trying to"},{"startTime":1454.231,"endTime":1457.491,"body":"like get ahead of, you know, in, in"},{"startTime":1457.491,"endTime":1459.971,"body":"this kind of transformation, because"},{"startTime":1457.491,"endTime":1459.971,"body":"this is the whole organization."},{"startTime":1460.151,"endTime":1463.541,"body":"It's not like one individual team or a"},{"startTime":1460.151,"endTime":1463.541,"body":"software development group or whatever,"},{"startTime":1463.851,"endTime":1468.011,"body":"like, this is all the programs, you know,"},{"startTime":1463.851,"endTime":1468.011,"body":"like what are the big risks that you see?"},{"startTime":1468.396,"endTime":1471.006,"body":"I understand you're saying like, well, I"},{"startTime":1468.396,"endTime":1471.006,"body":"want to find out where their most painful"},{"startTime":1471.006,"endTime":1475.226,"body":"point is and I want to get ahead of that,"},{"startTime":1471.006,"endTime":1475.226,"body":"but like, what is the most common, most"},{"startTime":1475.226,"endTime":1479.606,"body":"painful things that organizations deal"},{"startTime":1475.226,"endTime":1479.606,"body":"with that you try to jump in front of?"},{"startTime":1479.806,"endTime":1483.396,"body":"So the funny, you should ask that because"},{"startTime":1479.806,"endTime":1483.396,"body":"one of the most common things is They"},{"startTime":1483.396,"endTime":1487.866,"body":"don't see what's in front of them because"},{"startTime":1483.396,"endTime":1487.866,"body":"that's where they've lived the whole time."},{"startTime":1488.256,"endTime":1490.806,"body":"You're coming in with a"},{"startTime":1488.256,"endTime":1490.806,"body":"fresh pair of eyes, right?"},{"startTime":1490.846,"endTime":1492.436,"body":"Without any kind of bias."},{"startTime":1492.476,"endTime":1493.716,"body":"You don't know their process."},{"startTime":1493.716,"endTime":1498.106,"body":"You're questioning everything and you"},{"startTime":1493.716,"endTime":1498.106,"body":"start to see things that they've just"},{"startTime":1498.116,"endTime":1500.906,"body":"basically Ignored not willingly ignored."},{"startTime":1500.906,"endTime":1501.776,"body":"They just don't know."},{"startTime":1501.816,"endTime":1504.146,"body":"Yeah, right So it's contextual."},{"startTime":1504.196,"endTime":1508.736,"body":"But if you point that out to them you"},{"startTime":1504.196,"endTime":1508.736,"body":"get one of two responses one is Okay,"},{"startTime":1508.736,"endTime":1510.736,"body":"kid, we've been doing this for a while."},{"startTime":1510.896,"endTime":1511.426,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1511.676,"endTime":1513.856,"body":"That's, that's the product"},{"startTime":1511.676,"endTime":1513.856,"body":"management response right there."},{"startTime":1514.246,"endTime":1515.006,"body":"Stay in your lane."},{"startTime":1515.006,"endTime":1516.316,"body":"Get out of my office, kid."},{"startTime":1516.346,"endTime":1517.096,"body":"We got this."},{"startTime":1517.116,"endTime":1521.856,"body":"Like we don't need any of your backlog"},{"startTime":1517.116,"endTime":1521.856,"body":"vision product, like success things."},{"startTime":1522.286,"endTime":1523.986,"body":"That, that's one direction it goes in."},{"startTime":1523.986,"endTime":1527.536,"body":"And the other direction is they say,"},{"startTime":1523.986,"endTime":1527.536,"body":"Oh, well, we didn't realize that."},{"startTime":1527.986,"endTime":1529.586,"body":"How do we, how do we get ahead of that?"},{"startTime":1529.596,"endTime":1530.436,"body":"Now we can talk."},{"startTime":1530.546,"endTime":1530.856,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1531.346,"endTime":1532.52,"body":"So if you get the former, right."},{"startTime":1532.741,"endTime":1536.131,"body":"If you get the former, this is"},{"startTime":1532.741,"endTime":1536.131,"body":"easy to deal with because all"},{"startTime":1536.131,"endTime":1540.611,"body":"I've got to do is say, I see"},{"startTime":1536.131,"endTime":1540.611,"body":"this, you don't see this, right?"},{"startTime":1540.861,"endTime":1542.551,"body":"You're going to continue"},{"startTime":1540.861,"endTime":1542.551,"body":"working the way you want."},{"startTime":1542.561,"endTime":1543.751,"body":"That's, that's your decision."},{"startTime":1543.911,"endTime":1547.481,"body":"I'm just simply going to report this"},{"startTime":1543.911,"endTime":1547.481,"body":"up to the person that brought me in"},{"startTime":1547.491,"endTime":1549.131,"body":"and say, I think that might be a risk."},{"startTime":1549.381,"endTime":1550.911,"body":"And then I just stay out of that one."},{"startTime":1551.301,"endTime":1551.931,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1552.351,"endTime":1553.341,"body":"Watch what happens."},{"startTime":1553.731,"endTime":1556.531,"body":"You know, typically what happens"},{"startTime":1553.731,"endTime":1556.531,"body":"is the CEO will look at that and"},{"startTime":1556.531,"endTime":1558.391,"body":"say, well, there's a risk there."},{"startTime":1558.771,"endTime":1561.171,"body":"They'll call people into the"},{"startTime":1558.771,"endTime":1561.171,"body":"office and we'll have a discussion."},{"startTime":1561.171,"endTime":1561.626,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1561.876,"endTime":1562.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1562.446,"endTime":1564.176,"body":"I mean,  the funny thing about"},{"startTime":1562.446,"endTime":1564.176,"body":"what you just said is like, it's."},{"startTime":1564.426,"endTime":1568.246,"body":"So very basic to agile coaching."},{"startTime":1568.436,"endTime":1570.466,"body":"It's like, Hey, like I noticed this thing."},{"startTime":1570.576,"endTime":1572.126,"body":"I'm just going to make it visible here."},{"startTime":1572.126,"endTime":1574.806,"body":"It is like, I'm just pointing"},{"startTime":1572.126,"endTime":1574.806,"body":"out that I made it visible."},{"startTime":1574.806,"endTime":1575.246,"body":"There it is."},{"startTime":1575.246,"endTime":1576.15,"body":"We're tracking it now."},{"startTime":1576.45,"endTime":1580.48,"body":"Here's the mirror, but you can"},{"startTime":1576.45,"endTime":1580.48,"body":"see the flaws in the reflection."},{"startTime":1580.55,"endTime":1580.84,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1580.89,"endTime":1584.47,"body":"You can do something about them or you"},{"startTime":1580.89,"endTime":1584.47,"body":"can, or you can not, you can be like,"},{"startTime":1584.47,"endTime":1588.04,"body":"Hey, that's, that's just the way it looks."},{"startTime":1588.47,"endTime":1589.34,"body":"Exactly that."},{"startTime":1589.38,"endTime":1593.29,"body":"And in those extreme cases where they"},{"startTime":1589.38,"endTime":1593.29,"body":"say, you don't understand our business."},{"startTime":1593.49,"endTime":1593.82,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1594.03,"endTime":1594.88,"body":"You know, stay away."},{"startTime":1594.881,"endTime":1596.154,"body":"We're unique."},{"startTime":1596.204,"endTime":1596.854,"body":"And that's fine."},{"startTime":1596.884,"endTime":1600.429,"body":"You know, that to those people, I say,"},{"startTime":1596.884,"endTime":1600.429,"body":"listen, The mirror is still the mirror,"},{"startTime":1600.789,"endTime":1602.649,"body":"you don't like it, change the mirror."},{"startTime":1602.899,"endTime":1605.589,"body":"You're still going to say the same"},{"startTime":1602.899,"endTime":1605.589,"body":"thing, but that's your decision."},{"startTime":1605.669,"endTime":1606.169,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1606.199,"endTime":1606.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1606.569,"endTime":1609.259,"body":"Well, let me fire all my employees"},{"startTime":1606.569,"endTime":1609.259,"body":"and get people in here they'll"},{"startTime":1609.299,"endTime":1610.129,"body":"tell me what I want to hear."},{"startTime":1610.329,"endTime":1617.099,"body":"So I don't feel less changing  But I do"},{"startTime":1610.329,"endTime":1617.099,"body":"want to cut into time to market like that."},{"startTime":1617.109,"endTime":1618.779,"body":"That's something you"},{"startTime":1617.109,"endTime":1618.779,"body":"show them in the mirror."},{"startTime":1619.254,"endTime":1624.354,"body":"That I feel can't be ignored time"},{"startTime":1619.254,"endTime":1624.354,"body":"to market for changes or to respond"},{"startTime":1624.354,"endTime":1627.154,"body":"to trends or  for new initiatives,"},{"startTime":1624.354,"endTime":1627.154,"body":"you mean brand new things."},{"startTime":1627.544,"endTime":1631.244,"body":"If you can quantify time to market"},{"startTime":1627.544,"endTime":1631.244,"body":"across their programs to kind of show"},{"startTime":1631.244,"endTime":1636.104,"body":"them like, Hey, it takes you eight,"},{"startTime":1631.244,"endTime":1636.104,"body":"nine, eight, nine months is short."},{"startTime":1636.114,"endTime":1638.694,"body":"Like banks, for example,"},{"startTime":1636.114,"endTime":1638.694,"body":"eight, nine months is short."},{"startTime":1638.694,"endTime":1641.854,"body":"Like, Hey, it takes you years to add."},{"startTime":1642.154,"endTime":1645.084,"body":"You know, Hey, everyone's"},{"startTime":1642.154,"endTime":1645.084,"body":"a, what are we, sorry?"},{"startTime":1645.084,"endTime":1647.224,"body":"I was going to say AI, but maybe"},{"startTime":1645.084,"endTime":1647.224,"body":"that's too new for some people."},{"startTime":1647.274,"endTime":1649.784,"body":"Maybe some people are still"},{"startTime":1647.274,"endTime":1649.784,"body":"struggling to do AI blockchain."},{"startTime":1649.784,"endTime":1650.294,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":1650.544,"endTime":1652.624,"body":"Oh, we got to get blockchain"},{"startTime":1650.544,"endTime":1652.624,"body":"in our application."},{"startTime":1652.624,"endTime":1653.574,"body":"Like, okay."},{"startTime":1653.824,"endTime":1659.174,"body":"Right sweet Yeah, so I but look this"},{"startTime":1653.824,"endTime":1659.174,"body":"this this is a good topic because time"},{"startTime":1659.174,"endTime":1665.594,"body":"to market is a It's really a a related"},{"startTime":1659.174,"endTime":1665.594,"body":"factor to decision making The longer"},{"startTime":1665.594,"endTime":1669.694,"body":"you spend making decisions the longer"},{"startTime":1665.594,"endTime":1669.694,"body":"your time to market and and you so"},{"startTime":1669.694,"endTime":1676.024,"body":"you say decision making but I've i'm"},{"startTime":1669.694,"endTime":1676.024,"body":"i'm Binning this under the larger like"},{"startTime":1676.124,"endTime":1678.314,"body":"in the folder of financial impact."},{"startTime":1678.354,"endTime":1682.469,"body":"Yeah, of course time to market Goes"},{"startTime":1678.354,"endTime":1682.469,"body":"in the folder of financial impact."},{"startTime":1682.789,"endTime":1686.309,"body":"So if I can improve time to market,"},{"startTime":1682.789,"endTime":1686.309,"body":"my financial impact is shorter."},{"startTime":1686.319,"endTime":1693.339,"body":"Even if I put features out to market"},{"startTime":1686.319,"endTime":1693.339,"body":"in like days, not months or years,"},{"startTime":1693.589,"endTime":1698.839,"body":"and they turn out to be garbage and"},{"startTime":1693.589,"endTime":1698.839,"body":"nobody uses them or they users hate"},{"startTime":1698.839,"endTime":1702.569,"body":"them cause I'm assuming my dev team"},{"startTime":1698.839,"endTime":1702.569,"body":"then pivots to some other feature"},{"startTime":1702.569,"endTime":1703.629,"body":"or turns them off or whatever."},{"startTime":1704.119,"endTime":1706.769,"body":"The financial impact of us"},{"startTime":1704.119,"endTime":1706.769,"body":"wasting our time on that."},{"startTime":1707.264,"endTime":1709.484,"body":"Is minor, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1709.724,"endTime":1711.644,"body":"As opposed to like, well, we"},{"startTime":1709.724,"endTime":1711.644,"body":"worked two and a half years."},{"startTime":1711.644,"endTime":1714.474,"body":"We spun up hundreds of"},{"startTime":1711.644,"endTime":1714.474,"body":"employees, did a big program."},{"startTime":1714.734,"endTime":1717.774,"body":"It took us 18 months to get"},{"startTime":1714.734,"endTime":1717.774,"body":"it to the markets moved on."},{"startTime":1717.774,"endTime":1718.034,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.034,"endTime":1718.334,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.334,"endTime":1719.464,"body":"And then the markets moved on yeah."},{"startTime":1719.464,"endTime":1719.854,"body":"It's yeah."},{"startTime":1719.854,"endTime":1722.824,"body":"Time to time to market and a"},{"startTime":1719.854,"endTime":1722.824,"body":"bunch of other product metrics."},{"startTime":1722.884,"endTime":1725.944,"body":"I feel like you really need to pivot"},{"startTime":1722.884,"endTime":1725.944,"body":"the organization to start looking at"},{"startTime":1725.944,"endTime":1729.284,"body":"these things because otherwise the"},{"startTime":1725.944,"endTime":1729.284,"body":"organization looks at like timelines"},{"startTime":1729.284,"endTime":1732.374,"body":"and Gantt charts and there's just"},{"startTime":1729.284,"endTime":1732.374,"body":"things that are not important."},{"startTime":1732.614,"endTime":1736.444,"body":"Well, you think what you're saying"},{"startTime":1732.614,"endTime":1736.444,"body":"really is the shift from project"},{"startTime":1736.444,"endTime":1739.954,"body":"thinking to product thinking, right,"},{"startTime":1736.444,"endTime":1739.954,"body":"because customers don't buy projects."},{"startTime":1739.954,"endTime":1740.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1740.254,"endTime":1740.524,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1740.774,"endTime":1741.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1741.164,"endTime":1745.304,"body":"And that, like that, that changing"},{"startTime":1741.164,"endTime":1745.304,"body":"to build these internal capabilities."},{"startTime":1745.554,"endTime":1750.394,"body":"Of, you know, product thinking of like,"},{"startTime":1745.554,"endTime":1750.394,"body":"we're going to offer a service or we're"},{"startTime":1750.394,"endTime":1753.474,"body":"going to create a new value stream"},{"startTime":1750.394,"endTime":1753.474,"body":"and then customers are going to flock"},{"startTime":1753.474,"endTime":1755.994,"body":"to us to buy that new volume stream"},{"startTime":1753.474,"endTime":1755.994,"body":"and we're going to have a team that"},{"startTime":1755.994,"endTime":1759.784,"body":"maintains it and people that mean there"},{"startTime":1755.994,"endTime":1759.784,"body":"are people that maintain this delivery"},{"startTime":1759.804,"endTime":1763.254,"body":"of this value and that's the way we"},{"startTime":1759.804,"endTime":1763.254,"body":"think now we don't think like, well,"},{"startTime":1763.254,"endTime":1766.914,"body":"we're going to build this house and"},{"startTime":1763.254,"endTime":1766.914,"body":"once the house is built, we are going to"},{"startTime":1767.264,"endTime":1771.104,"body":"collect rent for 20 years and then, you"},{"startTime":1767.264,"endTime":1771.104,"body":"know, Cash out in Brodown or whatever,"},{"startTime":1771.104,"endTime":1772.274,"body":"like, you know, and then we're out."},{"startTime":1772.454,"endTime":1775.484,"body":"We, it costs us nothing"},{"startTime":1772.454,"endTime":1775.484,"body":"to basically maintain it."},{"startTime":1775.484,"endTime":1776.474,"body":"Well, that's not true."},{"startTime":1776.894,"endTime":1781.064,"body":"Like in, in fact in software development"},{"startTime":1776.894,"endTime":1781.064,"body":"it kind of is the opposite of that."},{"startTime":1781.064,"endTime":1781.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1781.124,"endTime":1784.604,"body":"Is like you, you pay a small"},{"startTime":1781.124,"endTime":1784.604,"body":"amount upfront to build the"},{"startTime":1784.604,"endTime":1788.114,"body":"house and then the house has to"},{"startTime":1784.604,"endTime":1788.114,"body":"be maintained for a long time."},{"startTime":1788.204,"endTime":1788.324,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1788.324,"endTime":1789.044,"body":"For a long time."},{"startTime":1789.044,"endTime":1791.294,"body":"And the maintenance cost"},{"startTime":1789.044,"endTime":1791.294,"body":"is actually significant."},{"startTime":1791.324,"endTime":1791.414,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":1791.654,"endTime":1794.564,"body":"as it's, it's actually very much not like."},{"startTime":1794.814,"endTime":1796.854,"body":"Owning a house or commercial"},{"startTime":1794.814,"endTime":1796.854,"body":"real estate or whatever."},{"startTime":1797.044,"endTime":1798.124,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":1798.474,"endTime":1802.214,"body":"Yeah So one of the side benefits"},{"startTime":1798.474,"endTime":1802.214,"body":"of changing the way people work"},{"startTime":1802.214,"endTime":1806.104,"body":"is it breaks down silos across"},{"startTime":1802.214,"endTime":1806.104,"body":"different business domains?"},{"startTime":1806.354,"endTime":1810.164,"body":"Generally speaking when you do that"},{"startTime":1806.354,"endTime":1810.164,"body":"it results in better communication,"},{"startTime":1810.174,"endTime":1813.724,"body":"ultimately quicker decision making"},{"startTime":1810.174,"endTime":1813.724,"body":"You could argue and stretch that and"},{"startTime":1813.724,"endTime":1818.264,"body":"say quicker time to market because"},{"startTime":1813.724,"endTime":1818.264,"body":"decisions are the biggest kind"},{"startTime":1818.264,"endTime":1820.604,"body":"of impediment to time to market."},{"startTime":1820.954,"endTime":1824.224,"body":"And, and last but not least,"},{"startTime":1820.954,"endTime":1824.224,"body":"employee morale improves."},{"startTime":1824.284,"endTime":1825.874,"body":"People like working there, right?"},{"startTime":1825.874,"endTime":1827.824,"body":"Because, you know, they see the change."},{"startTime":1827.924,"endTime":1827.944,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1828.004,"endTime":1832.504,"body":"They're not just stuck in that, you"},{"startTime":1828.004,"endTime":1832.504,"body":"know, One area where it's it's more"},{"startTime":1832.504,"endTime":1835.744,"body":"like a blame culture in that scenario"},{"startTime":1832.504,"endTime":1835.744,"body":"because if you don't succeed and"},{"startTime":1835.744,"endTime":1839.834,"body":"your area doesn't succeed You have"},{"startTime":1835.744,"endTime":1839.834,"body":"to you have to defend that right?"},{"startTime":1840.054,"endTime":1843.654,"body":"This is more we're together"},{"startTime":1840.054,"endTime":1843.654,"body":"as a company, right?"},{"startTime":1844.044,"endTime":1847.534,"body":"well, I feel People say morale and"},{"startTime":1844.044,"endTime":1847.534,"body":"morale means like nearly nothing."},{"startTime":1847.814,"endTime":1854.004,"body":"But like your your satisfaction"},{"startTime":1847.814,"endTime":1854.004,"body":"Satisfaction internal and external so"},{"startTime":1854.284,"endTime":1858.894,"body":"you like your internal employees And your"},{"startTime":1854.284,"endTime":1858.894,"body":"external customers, like that satisfaction"},{"startTime":1859.154,"endTime":1860.654,"body":"that can be measured directly."},{"startTime":1860.684,"endTime":1861.044,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1861.294,"endTime":1864.454,"body":"You know and like I said, that's a"},{"startTime":1861.294,"endTime":1864.454,"body":"business outcome, like a, just like time"},{"startTime":1864.454,"endTime":1868.854,"body":"to market the business outcome revenue"},{"startTime":1864.454,"endTime":1868.854,"body":"impact of any new initiative that you"},{"startTime":1868.934,"endTime":1873.564,"body":"Create and start all those can be directly"},{"startTime":1868.934,"endTime":1873.564,"body":"measured as a business outcome Yeah,"},{"startTime":1873.624,"endTime":1877.644,"body":"you can also directly measure, you know,"},{"startTime":1873.624,"endTime":1877.644,"body":"churn your employee turnover rate, right?"},{"startTime":1877.764,"endTime":1879.474,"body":"If they're happy, they're"},{"startTime":1877.764,"endTime":1879.474,"body":"less likely to churn"},{"startTime":1879.974,"endTime":1883.174,"body":"things that are internal that you"},{"startTime":1879.974,"endTime":1883.174,"body":"can measure here your, your employee"},{"startTime":1883.174,"endTime":1888.134,"body":"engagement, your employee satisfaction,"},{"startTime":1883.174,"endTime":1888.134,"body":"stuff like that, churn, turnover I've been"},{"startTime":1888.134,"endTime":1893.084,"body":"with companies that measure the referral"},{"startTime":1888.134,"endTime":1893.084,"body":"of new employees by current employees."},{"startTime":1893.084,"endTime":1896.504,"body":"They measure that rate to see where"},{"startTime":1893.084,"endTime":1896.504,"body":"they're, cause they like to see"},{"startTime":1896.504,"endTime":1899.314,"body":"that, people in house are referring."},{"startTime":1899.564,"endTime":1902.674,"body":"new employees to roles because they"},{"startTime":1899.564,"endTime":1902.674,"body":"like to see that like, you know, Hey,"},{"startTime":1902.714,"endTime":1907.244,"body":"that, that's a direct correlation you"},{"startTime":1902.714,"endTime":1907.244,"body":"could say of, of we have a good culture."},{"startTime":1907.444,"endTime":1911.594,"body":"And then you, you already pointed"},{"startTime":1907.444,"endTime":1911.594,"body":"out that the speed of decision making"},{"startTime":1911.844,"endTime":1913.654,"body":"we didn't talk about quality at all."},{"startTime":1913.904,"endTime":1918.294,"body":"We didn't and it's surprising because"},{"startTime":1913.904,"endTime":1918.294,"body":"quality will automatically go up"},{"startTime":1918.294,"endTime":1920.024,"body":"as a result of this change, right?"},{"startTime":1920.274,"endTime":1924.194,"body":"And purely because you have more eyes"},{"startTime":1920.274,"endTime":1924.194,"body":"and different perspectives looking"},{"startTime":1924.194,"endTime":1928.834,"body":"at the product you're offering as"},{"startTime":1924.194,"endTime":1928.834,"body":"opposed to, you know, A, B and C."},{"startTime":1929.119,"endTime":1932.219,"body":"Because that's typically the"},{"startTime":1929.119,"endTime":1932.219,"body":"manufacturing mentality, right?"},{"startTime":1932.409,"endTime":1934.209,"body":"We'll inspect for quality at the end."},{"startTime":1934.459,"endTime":1936.359,"body":"So yeah, that's a very good point."},{"startTime":1936.389,"endTime":1939.779,"body":"And I think that translates to, you"},{"startTime":1936.389,"endTime":1939.779,"body":"know, customer loyalty and, like you"},{"startTime":1939.779,"endTime":1942.159,"body":"said, customer feedback is more positive."},{"startTime":1942.409,"endTime":1943.399,"body":"Happier customers."},{"startTime":1943.639,"endTime":1947.619,"body":"So, we've kind of run the gamut"},{"startTime":1943.639,"endTime":1947.619,"body":"of all, kind of like up and down,"},{"startTime":1947.639,"endTime":1949.789,"body":"left and right of, of enterprise."},{"startTime":1950.039,"endTime":1950.869,"body":"Agility coaching."},{"startTime":1951.069,"endTime":1954.129,"body":"Is there anything else we missed or any"},{"startTime":1951.069,"endTime":1954.129,"body":"other final like things that you want"},{"startTime":1954.129,"endTime":1956.029,"body":"to, you want to put a bow on this topic?"},{"startTime":1956.279,"endTime":1960.569,"body":"I just wanted to say I have come"},{"startTime":1956.279,"endTime":1960.569,"body":"across enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":1960.569,"endTime":1962.569,"body":"coaches that really haven't."},{"startTime":1962.819,"endTime":1966.209,"body":"Been in the field long because"},{"startTime":1962.819,"endTime":1966.209,"body":"you can self title anything."},{"startTime":1966.539,"endTime":1969.859,"body":"If you come across people like that,"},{"startTime":1966.539,"endTime":1969.859,"body":"you know, just, just be careful"},{"startTime":1969.859,"endTime":1974.249,"body":"because they're expensive and they"},{"startTime":1969.859,"endTime":1974.249,"body":"aren't going to get you the results."},{"startTime":1974.719,"endTime":1975.659,"body":"So I I've seen that."},{"startTime":1975.659,"endTime":1979.889,"body":"And, and that's partly what's"},{"startTime":1975.659,"endTime":1979.889,"body":"given this profession a bad name."},{"startTime":1979.899,"endTime":1980.219,"body":"I feel."},{"startTime":1980.229,"endTime":1984.859,"body":"Well, how would you like if you"},{"startTime":1980.229,"endTime":1984.859,"body":"were a partner, if you were like,"},{"startTime":1984.869,"endTime":1989.159,"body":"let's pretend you that for a second,"},{"startTime":1984.869,"endTime":1989.159,"body":"people retained you as their, you"},{"startTime":1989.159,"endTime":1992.254,"body":"know like their board advisor, when"},{"startTime":1989.159,"endTime":1992.254,"body":"they wanted to onboard these people."},{"startTime":1992.264,"endTime":1994.144,"body":"Like, are there things"},{"startTime":1992.264,"endTime":1994.144,"body":"that you would look for?"},{"startTime":1994.144,"endTime":1997.904,"body":"Are there questions that you would ask"},{"startTime":1994.144,"endTime":1997.904,"body":"of people looking to work with companies?"},{"startTime":1998.304,"endTime":2001.664,"body":"I mean, you'd certainly be looking"},{"startTime":1998.304,"endTime":2001.664,"body":"for evidence that they've, you"},{"startTime":2001.664,"endTime":2003.204,"body":"know, done this sort of work before."},{"startTime":2003.564,"endTime":2003.934,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2004.149,"endTime":2006.359,"body":"positive, you know, and"},{"startTime":2004.149,"endTime":2006.359,"body":"positive outcomes from that."},{"startTime":2006.609,"endTime":2011.069,"body":"You don't just, you have to be"},{"startTime":2006.609,"endTime":2011.069,"body":"forged through that process several"},{"startTime":2011.069,"endTime":2014.379,"body":"times before you come out and"},{"startTime":2011.069,"endTime":2014.379,"body":"start to be even barely effective."},{"startTime":2014.379,"endTime":2014.639,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2014.679,"endTime":2017.609,"body":"And then your experiences"},{"startTime":2014.679,"endTime":2017.609,"body":"will take you further."},{"startTime":2018.039,"endTime":2021.019,"body":"So if you haven't got that, I"},{"startTime":2018.039,"endTime":2021.019,"body":"mean, then I, I wouldn't be able"},{"startTime":2021.019,"endTime":2022.529,"body":"to recommend people like that."},{"startTime":2022.529,"endTime":2022.839,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2022.839,"endTime":2024.159,"body":"I'd be definitely looking for."},{"startTime":2024.299,"endTime":2024.549,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2024.799,"endTime":2028.529,"body":"Evidence that you've been through"},{"startTime":2024.799,"endTime":2028.529,"body":"these experiences before and"},{"startTime":2028.529,"endTime":2030.539,"body":"come out with learnings at least."},{"startTime":2030.789,"endTime":2034.509,"body":"So yeah, this is a podcast, you know,"},{"startTime":2030.789,"endTime":2034.509,"body":"since you are enterprise business,"},{"startTime":2034.509,"endTime":2036.229,"body":"Julie coach, I wanted to cover this one."},{"startTime":2036.249,"endTime":2039.479,"body":"I figured this was a pretty easy"},{"startTime":2036.249,"endTime":2039.479,"body":"for us to kind of talk through"},{"startTime":2039.479,"endTime":2040.619,"body":"and ask a million questions."},{"startTime":2040.899,"endTime":2043.819,"body":"It was super easy for me cause I just"},{"startTime":2040.899,"endTime":2043.819,"body":"asked some questions and then that was"},{"startTime":2043.819,"endTime":2045.359,"body":"quiet and I was most of the podcast."},{"startTime":2045.609,"endTime":2046.459,"body":"So thank you."},{"startTime":2046.509,"endTime":2047.259,"body":"Thanks Om."},{"startTime":2047.309,"endTime":2051.069,"body":"And you know, if you like this podcast or"},{"startTime":2047.309,"endTime":2051.069,"body":"if you have questions about it feel free"},{"startTime":2051.069,"endTime":2055.559,"body":"to add 'em in the comments or  hit us up"},{"startTime":2051.069,"endTime":2055.559,"body":"at on, on the website, arguing agile.com"},{"startTime":2055.559,"endTime":2057.074,"body":"or Agile podcast questions at Gmail."},{"startTime":2057.574,"endTime":2062.064,"body":"Or hit us up on LinkedIn or, or"},{"startTime":2057.574,"endTime":2062.064,"body":"the old Tweety Twitter X, whatever"},{"startTime":2062.064,"endTime":2063.154,"body":"the kids call it these days."},{"startTime":2063.634,"endTime":2065.044,"body":"And like, and subscribe."},{"startTime":2065.184,"endTime":2065.994,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2066.014,"endTime":2067.054,"body":"Like, and subscribe."}]}