{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":12.767,"body":"Welcome back to Arguing Agile."},{"startTime":12.797,"endTime":16.217,"body":"If you work in software development"},{"startTime":12.797,"endTime":16.217,"body":"long enough, you will be under"},{"startTime":16.217,"endTime":18.507,"body":"the tyranny of plans and planning."},{"startTime":18.797,"endTime":21.047,"body":"Plans, plans, plans, gotta have a plan."},{"startTime":21.477,"endTime":24.257,"body":"And that has to have a plan, and"},{"startTime":21.477,"endTime":24.257,"body":"you have to have backup plans."},{"startTime":24.257,"endTime":26.387,"body":"So yeah, absolutely, today's"},{"startTime":24.257,"endTime":26.387,"body":"going to be a great podcast."},{"startTime":26.387,"endTime":29.297,"body":"So there's a lot of companies out"},{"startTime":26.387,"endTime":29.297,"body":"there, and a lot of people out there."},{"startTime":29.467,"endTime":32.137,"body":"So this is organizational,"},{"startTime":29.467,"endTime":32.137,"body":"and this is personal."},{"startTime":32.387,"endTime":35.358,"body":"That have a real problem with uncertainty."},{"startTime":35.457,"endTime":37.897,"body":"Or another way to say"},{"startTime":35.457,"endTime":37.897,"body":"uncertainty would be ambiguity."},{"startTime":37.948,"endTime":39.308,"body":"They have a real problem with ambiguity."},{"startTime":39.598,"endTime":41.058,"body":"So organizationally have a problem."},{"startTime":41.308,"endTime":43.968,"body":"Personally have a problem, I guess,"},{"startTime":41.308,"endTime":43.968,"body":"professionally have a problem."},{"startTime":44.248,"endTime":45.978,"body":"So we're going to dig into all that today."},{"startTime":46.248,"endTime":49.898,"body":"So I want to talk about the"},{"startTime":46.248,"endTime":49.898,"body":"corrosive nature of plans"},{"startTime":50.148,"endTime":52.308,"body":"and planning on the podcast."},{"startTime":52.688,"endTime":56.998,"body":"I was on a program once in this"},{"startTime":52.688,"endTime":56.998,"body":"sort of It was a, I think they"},{"startTime":56.998,"endTime":59.018,"body":"brought me on as a scrum master."},{"startTime":59.268,"endTime":60.948,"body":"But they expect me to do product work."},{"startTime":61.378,"endTime":62.248,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":62.488,"endTime":64.768,"body":"I was more of a program manager,"},{"startTime":62.488,"endTime":64.768,"body":"to be honest, on the team."},{"startTime":64.768,"endTime":67.588,"body":"What the most senior people or"},{"startTime":64.768,"endTime":67.588,"body":"the, the leadership of that."},{"startTime":68.023,"endTime":71.473,"body":"They would give you about six months"},{"startTime":68.023,"endTime":71.473,"body":"and then they would shuffle everything."},{"startTime":71.473,"endTime":75.073,"body":"They shuffle the teams, the goals, you"},{"startTime":71.473,"endTime":75.073,"body":"know, they would pivot technologies,"},{"startTime":75.083,"endTime":76.453,"body":"they would pivot basically everything."},{"startTime":76.463,"endTime":78.963,"body":"And they'd say, okay, now"},{"startTime":76.463,"endTime":78.963,"body":"you gotta make me a new plan."},{"startTime":79.428,"endTime":81.118,"body":"To get all the work done."},{"startTime":81.128,"endTime":83.538,"body":"Like here's all the, here's all"},{"startTime":81.128,"endTime":83.538,"body":"the things that we want you to,"},{"startTime":83.538,"endTime":86.538,"body":"here's all the,  the high level"},{"startTime":83.538,"endTime":86.538,"body":"goals that we want accomplished."},{"startTime":86.598,"endTime":87.268,"body":"High level goals."},{"startTime":87.318,"endTime":87.988,"body":"That's what they would do."},{"startTime":88.338,"endTime":91.738,"body":"Like the equivalent of like epics,"},{"startTime":88.338,"endTime":91.738,"body":"basically leadership will give you the"},{"startTime":91.738,"endTime":98.088,"body":"epic, build me a, a way to do my laundry"},{"startTime":91.738,"endTime":98.088,"body":"online, virtual laundry service, some"},{"startTime":98.098,"endTime":100.038,"body":"laundry in the cloud, laundry and clouds."},{"startTime":100.218,"endTime":100.588,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":100.748,"endTime":101.698,"body":"I'm trying to protect."},{"startTime":102.063,"endTime":103.373,"body":"The very very guilty."},{"startTime":103.393,"endTime":104.113,"body":"Yes, indeed."},{"startTime":104.353,"endTime":107.123,"body":"But about every six months they would"},{"startTime":104.353,"endTime":107.123,"body":"shuffle everything because they didn't"},{"startTime":107.133,"endTime":111.413,"body":"feel That the the plan as written was"},{"startTime":107.133,"endTime":111.413,"body":"progressing the way they wanted and"},{"startTime":111.423,"endTime":116.353,"body":"they felt that it was better to just"},{"startTime":111.423,"endTime":116.353,"body":"cut their losses and usually what"},{"startTime":116.353,"endTime":119.788,"body":"would also accompany in that program"},{"startTime":116.353,"endTime":119.788,"body":"was Ever recycling of leadership."},{"startTime":119.788,"endTime":123.328,"body":"Of course, they would cut the leaders"},{"startTime":119.788,"endTime":123.328,"body":"and they would put new leaders"},{"startTime":123.328,"endTime":126.328,"body":"in from somewhere else and they'd"},{"startTime":123.328,"endTime":126.328,"body":"say, you get with your teams and"},{"startTime":126.328,"endTime":128.728,"body":"do a, do a plan for all the work."},{"startTime":129.178,"endTime":133.818,"body":"Two, three years of plans I wanna"},{"startTime":129.178,"endTime":133.818,"body":"see in paper by the end of this"},{"startTime":133.818,"endTime":136.038,"body":"week or whatever, you know, the end"},{"startTime":133.818,"endTime":136.038,"body":"of two weeks or whatever it was."},{"startTime":136.218,"endTime":141.168,"body":"And they must have done that three"},{"startTime":136.218,"endTime":141.168,"body":"times in 18 months when I was there."},{"startTime":141.418,"endTime":143.968,"body":"And I thought it was the most"},{"startTime":141.418,"endTime":143.968,"body":"insane thing in the world."},{"startTime":143.968,"endTime":145.908,"body":"'cause, 'cause at the same"},{"startTime":143.968,"endTime":145.908,"body":"time they were doing this."},{"startTime":146.343,"endTime":150.003,"body":"We were servicing customers and the"},{"startTime":146.343,"endTime":150.003,"body":"people that did the budgets and did"},{"startTime":150.003,"endTime":153.143,"body":"this kind of like shuffling, never"},{"startTime":150.003,"endTime":153.143,"body":"talked to the customers, of course."},{"startTime":153.183,"endTime":156.043,"body":"I was actually servicing and"},{"startTime":153.183,"endTime":156.043,"body":"talking to customers and they"},{"startTime":156.043,"endTime":157.593,"body":"were as bewildered as I was."},{"startTime":158.083,"endTime":160.913,"body":"Of what management was doing with"},{"startTime":158.083,"endTime":160.913,"body":"the, you know, cause they felt ignored"},{"startTime":160.963,"endTime":163.823,"body":"when, you know, they felt left out"},{"startTime":160.963,"endTime":163.823,"body":"when this shuffle would happen."},{"startTime":164.073,"endTime":168.613,"body":"And also to your point about, changing"},{"startTime":164.073,"endTime":168.613,"body":"people around, I mean, they're going to"},{"startTime":168.613,"endTime":170.713,"body":"feel a certain sense of panic, right?"},{"startTime":170.753,"endTime":173.553,"body":"I mean, people that they used to"},{"startTime":170.753,"endTime":173.553,"body":"dealing with are no longer there."},{"startTime":173.593,"endTime":175.043,"body":"And then six months later they change."},{"startTime":175.143,"endTime":176.383,"body":"So there's a lot here."},{"startTime":176.458,"endTime":179.728,"body":"I think that when you said in the"},{"startTime":176.458,"endTime":179.728,"body":"introduction that we're going to"},{"startTime":179.728,"endTime":183.888,"body":"talk about some organizational"},{"startTime":179.728,"endTime":183.888,"body":"issues or maladies and then"},{"startTime":183.888,"endTime":185.238,"body":"some at the personal level."},{"startTime":185.698,"endTime":189.778,"body":"If you're in leadership in an organization"},{"startTime":185.698,"endTime":189.778,"body":"like the one you described, You"},{"startTime":189.778,"endTime":194.538,"body":"demand plans and you demand detailed"},{"startTime":189.778,"endTime":194.538,"body":"plans and these plans can go out a"},{"startTime":194.538,"endTime":199.418,"body":"year, two years, whatever, but Every"},{"startTime":194.538,"endTime":199.418,"body":"six months you clean house, right?"},{"startTime":199.458,"endTime":204.218,"body":"And that's because You're reporting to"},{"startTime":199.458,"endTime":204.218,"body":"other people how these plans are going"},{"startTime":204.308,"endTime":208.898,"body":"right and lo and behold, you know When"},{"startTime":204.308,"endTime":208.898,"body":"you plan out something like this that"},{"startTime":208.898,"endTime":213.918,"body":"is two years out or 18 months out Things"},{"startTime":208.898,"endTime":213.918,"body":"change from out under you they change"},{"startTime":213.928,"endTime":217.503,"body":"the weather changes everything changes"},{"startTime":213.928,"endTime":217.503,"body":"The market changes, your customer's needs"},{"startTime":217.503,"endTime":220.363,"body":"change your, your team members change."},{"startTime":220.673,"endTime":222.603,"body":"Teams underneath, right?"},{"startTime":222.603,"endTime":225.463,"body":"So, of course, they're not going"},{"startTime":222.603,"endTime":225.463,"body":"to pan out exactly like that."},{"startTime":225.633,"endTime":229.633,"body":"But instead of saying, well, you know,"},{"startTime":225.633,"endTime":229.633,"body":"this plan was ambitious, whatever, wrong"},{"startTime":229.633,"endTime":234.283,"body":"to begin with, they're going to push the"},{"startTime":229.633,"endTime":234.283,"body":"blame downhill, and they'll clean house."},{"startTime":234.313,"endTime":234.523,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":234.873,"endTime":236.573,"body":"That is something that I've seen as well."},{"startTime":236.583,"endTime":239.123,"body":"Every, about every six months"},{"startTime":236.583,"endTime":239.123,"body":"is about right, I think."},{"startTime":239.423,"endTime":241.793,"body":"what they will do is,"},{"startTime":239.423,"endTime":241.793,"body":"they will try to bring."},{"startTime":242.283,"endTime":247.173,"body":"A little more comfort into this by"},{"startTime":242.283,"endTime":247.173,"body":"saying Joe over there or Mary over there."},{"startTime":247.493,"endTime":249.073,"body":"They've done this before"},{"startTime":247.493,"endTime":249.073,"body":"and they were great."},{"startTime":249.213,"endTime":251.713,"body":"They brought a project in"},{"startTime":249.213,"endTime":251.713,"body":"on time and under budget."},{"startTime":251.893,"endTime":252.073,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":252.113,"endTime":252.403,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":252.543,"endTime":254.383,"body":"So we're going to bring them over here."},{"startTime":254.583,"endTime":258.193,"body":"This is a completely different"},{"startTime":254.583,"endTime":258.193,"body":"area of the business, by the way."},{"startTime":258.243,"endTime":258.513,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":258.533,"endTime":262.833,"body":"They worked in whatever, and"},{"startTime":258.533,"endTime":262.833,"body":"now we're in cloud services, but"},{"startTime":263.113,"endTime":264.603,"body":"they've never worked on before."},{"startTime":264.653,"endTime":265.173,"body":"it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":265.538,"endTime":268.898,"body":"So for me the story of what you're"},{"startTime":265.538,"endTime":268.898,"body":"talking about was the person worked"},{"startTime":268.908,"endTime":274.388,"body":"in like front end dashboards and"},{"startTime":268.908,"endTime":274.388,"body":"we were in like back end data"},{"startTime":274.388,"endTime":275.858,"body":"pipelines and data transformation."},{"startTime":275.888,"endTime":276.738,"body":"It's all computers."},{"startTime":276.888,"endTime":278.668,"body":"Yeah, it's ones and zeros."},{"startTime":278.668,"endTime":279.693,"body":"Things have nothing to do with computers."},{"startTime":279.963,"endTime":280.323,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":280.433,"endTime":284.523,"body":"So they'll bring that person in,"},{"startTime":280.433,"endTime":284.523,"body":"under this false sense of comfort that"},{"startTime":284.533,"endTime":287.453,"body":"because they were successful somewhere"},{"startTime":284.533,"endTime":287.453,"body":"else, they'll be successful here."},{"startTime":287.703,"endTime":291.533,"body":"And then wait six months or less, What"},{"startTime":287.703,"endTime":291.533,"body":"will happen is that person will also"},{"startTime":291.533,"endTime":293.803,"body":"be cycled out and rinse and repeat."},{"startTime":293.913,"endTime":297.843,"body":"So this is endemic, I think,"},{"startTime":293.913,"endTime":297.843,"body":"in quite a lot of large"},{"startTime":297.843,"endTime":299.643,"body":"organizations, medium sized even."},{"startTime":299.893,"endTime":305.553,"body":"Well,  is that because the  organizational"},{"startTime":299.893,"endTime":305.553,"body":"design of large organizations is just"},{"startTime":305.613,"endTime":307.843,"body":"unresponsive and like poorly thought out."},{"startTime":307.863,"endTime":310.743,"body":"Like what, why are larger"},{"startTime":307.863,"endTime":310.743,"body":"organizations more susceptible?"},{"startTime":310.783,"endTime":312.013,"body":"I think they're more lethargic."},{"startTime":312.073,"endTime":313.243,"body":"They have many layers."},{"startTime":313.573,"endTime":317.833,"body":"So that's part of the reason why, because"},{"startTime":313.573,"endTime":317.833,"body":"every layer is going to look at how they"},{"startTime":317.833,"endTime":321.993,"body":"look good for their, you know, in front"},{"startTime":317.833,"endTime":321.993,"body":"of their bosses that their whole purpose"},{"startTime":321.993,"endTime":324.083,"body":"in life is to make their bosses look good."},{"startTime":324.543,"endTime":324.923,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":325.413,"endTime":325.583,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":325.643,"endTime":328.733,"body":"So I want to talk about the people,"},{"startTime":325.643,"endTime":328.733,"body":"which is where you're going is where"},{"startTime":328.733,"endTime":332.143,"body":"you're pushing, but I'm not done"},{"startTime":328.733,"endTime":332.143,"body":"picking on the organization yet."},{"startTime":332.493,"endTime":335.873,"body":"And we haven't even gotten to the backdrop"},{"startTime":332.493,"endTime":335.873,"body":"of like capitalism ruins everything."},{"startTime":336.013,"endTime":338.273,"body":"so there's three things in the"},{"startTime":336.013,"endTime":338.273,"body":"air right now, which is like the"},{"startTime":338.273,"endTime":341.403,"body":"market, the business, AKA the"},{"startTime":338.273,"endTime":341.403,"body":"system in the market, and then the"},{"startTime":341.413,"endTime":342.813,"body":"individual inside of the system."},{"startTime":343.283,"endTime":345.063,"body":"Let's stay with the system."},{"startTime":345.073,"endTime":347.963,"body":"We're talking about systemic issues."},{"startTime":348.203,"endTime":352.243,"body":"One of which is you got bad org design"},{"startTime":348.203,"endTime":352.243,"body":"and the org is too big to change."},{"startTime":352.273,"endTime":353.563,"body":"They're too big to respond."},{"startTime":353.803,"endTime":354.943,"body":"They're basically too big to fail."},{"startTime":354.953,"endTime":358.083,"body":"No matter how much failure they get,"},{"startTime":354.953,"endTime":358.083,"body":"they're just going to keep on chugging"},{"startTime":358.083,"endTime":361.473,"body":"along doing the same thing they always"},{"startTime":358.083,"endTime":361.473,"body":"did in the same way they've always done."},{"startTime":361.723,"endTime":361.983,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":361.983,"endTime":365.383,"body":"And then you're allowed to change,"},{"startTime":361.983,"endTime":365.383,"body":"any drape colors that you want"},{"startTime":365.383,"endTime":366.653,"body":"on your cabin on the Titanic."},{"startTime":366.653,"endTime":369.303,"body":"Like that's the equivalent here"},{"startTime":366.653,"endTime":369.303,"body":"of shuffling your leadership"},{"startTime":369.623,"endTime":370.693,"body":"in this kind of program."},{"startTime":370.823,"endTime":371.073,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":371.323,"endTime":374.583,"body":"The things that I have seen in the"},{"startTime":371.323,"endTime":374.583,"body":"program I'm talking about, they would"},{"startTime":374.583,"endTime":375.803,"body":"always measure all the wrong things."},{"startTime":375.973,"endTime":377.813,"body":"Of course it's not like"},{"startTime":375.973,"endTime":377.813,"body":"leadership is looking at velocity."},{"startTime":377.813,"endTime":379.493,"body":"They're like, how come"},{"startTime":377.813,"endTime":379.493,"body":"we haven't delivered?"},{"startTime":379.493,"endTime":383.513,"body":"Like we had eight things scheduled on"},{"startTime":379.493,"endTime":383.513,"body":"the Gantt chart to be delivered in this"},{"startTime":383.513,"endTime":384.993,"body":"quarter and you only delivered four."},{"startTime":385.203,"endTime":387.063,"body":"So you're at 50 percent delivery."},{"startTime":387.313,"endTime":388.973,"body":"And now those are the numbers"},{"startTime":387.313,"endTime":388.973,"body":"that they're looking at."},{"startTime":389.013,"endTime":391.743,"body":"Like the, again, the customer that was"},{"startTime":389.013,"endTime":391.743,"body":"talking to me is like, I don't understand"},{"startTime":391.743,"endTime":394.283,"body":"why I'm not on any of their metrics."},{"startTime":394.513,"endTime":397.173,"body":"And I would say to the customer,"},{"startTime":394.513,"endTime":397.173,"body":"I also don't understand why"},{"startTime":397.273,"endTime":399.283,"body":"you're not, why don't we together."},{"startTime":399.533,"endTime":402.883,"body":"Talk to, you know, program"},{"startTime":399.533,"endTime":402.883,"body":"leadership basically."},{"startTime":403.333,"endTime":406.553,"body":"Which didn't go over well, you know,"},{"startTime":403.333,"endTime":406.553,"body":"cause that's seen as a challenge."},{"startTime":406.863,"endTime":409.563,"body":"That's exactly what it could be because"},{"startTime":406.863,"endTime":409.563,"body":"then we entered what I want to talk"},{"startTime":409.563,"endTime":414.283,"body":"about on the personal side of this topic,"},{"startTime":409.563,"endTime":414.283,"body":"but Well, no, I'll just say the luck"},{"startTime":414.333,"endTime":418.793,"body":"component of what you just outlined is"},{"startTime":414.333,"endTime":418.793,"body":"like, well, this person was successful"},{"startTime":418.993,"endTime":422.933,"body":"on this other team in this other business"},{"startTime":418.993,"endTime":422.933,"body":"with these other customers and this"},{"startTime":422.963,"endTime":426.283,"body":"other technology, and because they were"},{"startTime":422.963,"endTime":426.283,"body":"successful over there, they will be"},{"startTime":426.283,"endTime":431.173,"body":"successful over here is the funniest"},{"startTime":426.283,"endTime":431.173,"body":"thing to me at this stage of my career."},{"startTime":431.648,"endTime":436.838,"body":"To observe from the outside because if"},{"startTime":431.648,"endTime":436.838,"body":"you ever watched a video one time of"},{"startTime":436.838,"endTime":439.128,"body":"people would open the door and they would"},{"startTime":436.838,"endTime":439.128,"body":"step out of like a store or whatever,"},{"startTime":439.328,"endTime":443.138,"body":"but there was like a step down, and most"},{"startTime":439.328,"endTime":443.138,"body":"people would trip on a step down or not"},{"startTime":443.138,"endTime":447.128,"body":"realize and do the little whoop, and you"},{"startTime":443.138,"endTime":447.128,"body":"know, step down, and it's like, yeah, you"},{"startTime":447.128,"endTime":451.578,"body":"could say it's all, every single person's"},{"startTime":447.128,"endTime":451.578,"body":"fault, but at some point, you gotta"},{"startTime":451.578,"endTime":453.318,"body":"say like, I mean, It's a design issue."},{"startTime":453.368,"endTime":453.968,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":453.978,"endTime":455.148,"body":"The system is doing this."},{"startTime":455.148,"endTime":457.248,"body":"You really, you have to realize"},{"startTime":455.148,"endTime":457.248,"body":"the system's doing this."},{"startTime":457.673,"endTime":461.873,"body":"the luck aspect of like, well, one"},{"startTime":457.673,"endTime":461.873,"body":"person stepped down successfully"},{"startTime":462.343,"endTime":464.413,"body":"out of 10 people who tripped."},{"startTime":464.653,"endTime":466.523,"body":"So the other nine are wrong."},{"startTime":466.533,"endTime":466.573,"body":"The"},{"startTime":466.573,"endTime":469.083,"body":"I see a lot of companies, again,"},{"startTime":466.573,"endTime":469.083,"body":"in product management, I see a lot"},{"startTime":469.083,"endTime":471.963,"body":"of companies that because their"},{"startTime":469.083,"endTime":471.963,"body":"product didn't hit on the market."},{"startTime":472.213,"endTime":475.293,"body":"They start blaming people or"},{"startTime":472.213,"endTime":475.293,"body":"you didn't deliver it right."},{"startTime":475.293,"endTime":478.403,"body":"Or like the sales thing, we go back to"},{"startTime":475.293,"endTime":478.403,"body":"all that all the time on the podcast."},{"startTime":478.763,"endTime":481.703,"body":"but they don't realize that like,"},{"startTime":478.763,"endTime":481.703,"body":"well, the successful products in the"},{"startTime":481.703,"endTime":485.488,"body":"field were, Brought to market at a time"},{"startTime":481.703,"endTime":485.488,"body":"where nobody was solving this problem."},{"startTime":485.498,"endTime":486.858,"body":"Now everyone's solving this problem."},{"startTime":486.888,"endTime":489.208,"body":"So maybe like the market"},{"startTime":486.888,"endTime":489.208,"body":"timing wasn't right."},{"startTime":489.408,"endTime":491.188,"body":"Or maybe your product"},{"startTime":489.408,"endTime":491.188,"body":"didn't differentiate enough."},{"startTime":491.378,"endTime":493.248,"body":"You know, maybe it wasn't priced properly."},{"startTime":493.248,"endTime":496.998,"body":"There's like a million factors,"},{"startTime":493.248,"endTime":496.998,"body":"but just like going viral, like"},{"startTime":497.018,"endTime":500.218,"body":"there's luck involved, no matter"},{"startTime":497.018,"endTime":500.218,"body":"how many influences you listen to."},{"startTime":500.468,"endTime":502.208,"body":"Tell you that like, Oh no, it's a formula."},{"startTime":502.528,"endTime":504.088,"body":"There is luck involved."},{"startTime":504.098,"endTime":505.918,"body":"There's just no getting out of that."},{"startTime":506.168,"endTime":506.358,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":506.368,"endTime":507.518,"body":"There, there's luck involved."},{"startTime":507.708,"endTime":508.518,"body":"The same thing in business."},{"startTime":508.518,"endTime":511.798,"body":"We're not allowed to say like, Hey,"},{"startTime":508.518,"endTime":511.798,"body":"you know, if only you were lucky"},{"startTime":511.798,"endTime":514.678,"body":"enough to be born 20 years earlier,"},{"startTime":511.798,"endTime":514.678,"body":"you could have bought a house."},{"startTime":515.128,"endTime":518.608,"body":"And had no problem and it would have"},{"startTime":515.128,"endTime":518.608,"body":"been, you know, cheap and you could"},{"startTime":518.608,"endTime":521.928,"body":"have got a job like it was your fault"},{"startTime":518.608,"endTime":521.928,"body":"for Being born 20 years late, right?"},{"startTime":521.958,"endTime":526.938,"body":"So so sorry next time you should"},{"startTime":521.958,"endTime":526.938,"body":"try harder to be born earlier"},{"startTime":526.938,"endTime":528.358,"body":"It is absolutely ridiculous."},{"startTime":528.388,"endTime":532.248,"body":"But just to kind of talk about a"},{"startTime":528.388,"endTime":532.248,"body":"little bit more on the org design"},{"startTime":532.248,"endTime":537.888,"body":"side of it, most organizations evolved"},{"startTime":532.248,"endTime":537.888,"body":"to this stage by being successful"},{"startTime":538.338,"endTime":542.698,"body":"doing things the old fashioned way,"},{"startTime":538.338,"endTime":542.698,"body":"which is put a mark on a Gantt chart"},{"startTime":542.698,"endTime":544.218,"body":"and say, let's hit that, right?"},{"startTime":544.468,"endTime":547.998,"body":"Unfortunately, it was in the"},{"startTime":544.468,"endTime":547.998,"body":"time when they were really not"},{"startTime":548.008,"endTime":552.078,"body":"being successful, even though"},{"startTime":548.008,"endTime":552.078,"body":"projects were being met, right?"},{"startTime":552.138,"endTime":554.448,"body":"Customers were not being"},{"startTime":552.138,"endTime":554.448,"body":"satisfied, and that's because"},{"startTime":554.448,"endTime":555.848,"body":"their needs still changed, right?"},{"startTime":555.968,"endTime":559.198,"body":"Six months, a year after their"},{"startTime":555.968,"endTime":559.198,"body":"requirements were signed off in blood."},{"startTime":559.598,"endTime":563.118,"body":"But then they were met with, well,"},{"startTime":559.598,"endTime":563.118,"body":"you change your mind, so you pay."},{"startTime":563.348,"endTime":566.768,"body":"But unfortunately, a lot of those"},{"startTime":563.348,"endTime":566.768,"body":"people are still there in those PMOs."},{"startTime":566.958,"endTime":567.988,"body":"They work that way."},{"startTime":568.288,"endTime":572.588,"body":"And this is now 2024"},{"startTime":568.288,"endTime":572.588,"body":"customers should be engaged."},{"startTime":572.948,"endTime":576.398,"body":"Not only at the beginning, but"},{"startTime":572.948,"endTime":576.398,"body":"throughout, and that was never"},{"startTime":576.398,"endTime":577.378,"body":"something they grew up with."},{"startTime":577.758,"endTime":582.038,"body":"So, in terms of their philosophy"},{"startTime":577.758,"endTime":582.038,"body":"of how they operate, customers"},{"startTime":582.038,"endTime":583.928,"body":"are not in the equation, right?"},{"startTime":583.928,"endTime":586.468,"body":"They're at the end of the chain."},{"startTime":586.718,"endTime":589.348,"body":"Build it, and then ship it"},{"startTime":586.718,"endTime":589.348,"body":"over to them at some point."},{"startTime":589.598,"endTime":591.158,"body":"As opposed to build it with them."},{"startTime":591.558,"endTime":593.978,"body":"Yeah, and again, all the"},{"startTime":591.558,"endTime":593.978,"body":"while ignoring all the biases."},{"startTime":594.228,"endTime":598.118,"body":"You know, all the survivorship biases of"},{"startTime":594.228,"endTime":598.118,"body":"the Silicon Valley folks and whatever that"},{"startTime":598.118,"endTime":602.788,"body":"are telling you like, Oh, you know, just"},{"startTime":598.118,"endTime":602.788,"body":"steal everyone's IP and launch your black"},{"startTime":603.258,"endTime":605.258,"body":"cab service in London without licenses."},{"startTime":605.258,"endTime":608.208,"body":"And as long as you're successful,"},{"startTime":605.258,"endTime":608.208,"body":"then you can, you know, get the"},{"startTime":608.208,"endTime":611.448,"body":"lawyers to handle it when you"},{"startTime":608.208,"endTime":611.448,"body":"have bajillion dollars in profits."},{"startTime":611.698,"endTime":613.168,"body":"But what they don't tell you is, out of."},{"startTime":613.668,"endTime":615.438,"body":"100 companies that launch like that."},{"startTime":615.588,"endTime":617.758,"body":"Maybe one is successful, right?"},{"startTime":617.758,"endTime":620.238,"body":"But that one that's successful"},{"startTime":617.758,"endTime":620.238,"body":"is like, well, Uber did it."},{"startTime":620.238,"endTime":622.028,"body":"So I don't understand"},{"startTime":620.238,"endTime":622.028,"body":"what your problem is."},{"startTime":622.278,"endTime":624.988,"body":"Yeah, it's always easy to"},{"startTime":622.278,"endTime":624.988,"body":"be a follower, isn't it?"},{"startTime":625.008,"endTime":627.438,"body":"So you can look at somebody and"},{"startTime":625.008,"endTime":627.438,"body":"say, look, they did it, and we can"},{"startTime":627.438,"endTime":628.618,"body":"just follow in their footsteps."},{"startTime":628.618,"endTime":630.478,"body":"Unfortunately, it's not that simple."},{"startTime":630.748,"endTime":634.018,"body":"You know what I find amazing is that"},{"startTime":630.748,"endTime":634.018,"body":"not enough people are talking about,"},{"startTime":634.428,"endTime":639.568,"body":"This as a causal factor, like a"},{"startTime":634.428,"endTime":639.568,"body":"major causal factor, your org design."},{"startTime":639.938,"endTime":644.528,"body":"And part of that is because I think"},{"startTime":639.938,"endTime":644.528,"body":"it's frowned upon to question that"},{"startTime":644.818,"endTime":647.368,"body":"because you're going, you get into"},{"startTime":644.818,"endTime":647.368,"body":"a company and you're in your way."},{"startTime":647.368,"endTime":648.828,"body":"You are somewhere, right?"},{"startTime":649.078,"endTime":652.098,"body":"But you know, when you say, well,"},{"startTime":649.078,"endTime":652.098,"body":"the way we're geared up is wrong."},{"startTime":652.118,"endTime":652.918,"body":"We should change this."},{"startTime":653.218,"endTime":654.238,"body":"It's not very well received."},{"startTime":654.298,"endTime":654.988,"body":"You just got here."},{"startTime":654.988,"endTime":655.808,"body":"Stay in your lane."},{"startTime":656.038,"endTime":659.238,"body":"Well, we had a podcast on the"},{"startTime":656.038,"endTime":659.238,"body":"illusion of control which is actually"},{"startTime":659.238,"endTime":660.908,"body":"pretty well received on YouTube."},{"startTime":661.138,"endTime":664.118,"body":"The people say the illusion of"},{"startTime":661.138,"endTime":664.118,"body":"control why you can't say like, Hey,"},{"startTime":664.118,"endTime":666.148,"body":"this organ design is kind of crap."},{"startTime":666.158,"endTime":670.058,"body":"Or, even on the illusion of control"},{"startTime":666.158,"endTime":670.058,"body":"podcast, I said, why is the default?"},{"startTime":670.348,"endTime":676.938,"body":"Like autocratic, you know, dictatorial"},{"startTime":670.348,"endTime":676.938,"body":"country, like way of running."},{"startTime":677.388,"endTime":681.458,"body":"Like, why is that the default business"},{"startTime":677.388,"endTime":681.458,"body":"like org design in, in America?"},{"startTime":681.518,"endTime":683.648,"body":"Like that, that doesn't seem right"},{"startTime":681.518,"endTime":683.648,"body":"to me that, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":683.688,"endTime":685.688,"body":"Today it's not right, but"},{"startTime":683.688,"endTime":685.688,"body":"that's how we grew up."},{"startTime":685.738,"endTime":685.988,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":685.988,"endTime":688.848,"body":"That's so, that's so, well, it's"},{"startTime":685.988,"endTime":688.848,"body":"not, it's not how we grew up."},{"startTime":689.303,"endTime":692.313,"body":"Because before Taylor businesses"},{"startTime":689.303,"endTime":692.313,"body":"were completely different."},{"startTime":692.313,"endTime":693.453,"body":"Oh, you can go that far back."},{"startTime":693.453,"endTime":694.323,"body":"Yeah, For sure."},{"startTime":694.383,"endTime":696.993,"body":"Well, I mean, that, that is, I"},{"startTime":694.383,"endTime":696.993,"body":"mean, like with the Taylorism,"},{"startTime":696.993,"endTime":698.283,"body":"surprise, it's Taylorism."},{"startTime":698.283,"endTime":699.053,"body":"No, we're not done."},{"startTime":699.053,"endTime":699.473,"body":"We're not done."},{"startTime":699.473,"endTime":699.823,"body":"We're not done."},{"startTime":700.043,"endTime":701.113,"body":"We still got a lot more podcasts."},{"startTime":701.453,"endTime":705.543,"body":"The Taylorism way of doing things,"},{"startTime":701.453,"endTime":705.543,"body":"the independent consultants came in"},{"startTime":705.653,"endTime":709.233,"body":"to the business studied because they"},{"startTime":705.653,"endTime":709.233,"body":"were educated and everyone else was"},{"startTime":709.233,"endTime":712.743,"body":"dumb and we studied what the workers"},{"startTime":709.233,"endTime":712.743,"body":"were doing and they drew up a list"},{"startTime":712.763,"endTime":717.203,"body":"of exactly how to do it so that no"},{"startTime":712.763,"endTime":717.203,"body":"movement was wasted and they had to"},{"startTime":717.213,"endTime":720.423,"body":"be called in because the workers were"},{"startTime":717.213,"endTime":720.423,"body":"too stupid to do it and the management"},{"startTime":720.433,"endTime":722.263,"body":"was too, too incompetent to do it."},{"startTime":722.583,"endTime":726.063,"body":"And they basically laid their"},{"startTime":722.583,"endTime":726.063,"body":"framework down and said, we"},{"startTime":726.063,"endTime":727.283,"body":"are controlling everything."},{"startTime":727.533,"endTime":729.473,"body":"And if you want to improve on"},{"startTime":727.533,"endTime":729.473,"body":"it, you have to call us back."},{"startTime":729.903,"endTime":731.673,"body":"when conditions change, call us back."},{"startTime":731.703,"endTime":735.523,"body":"and it was about control and they"},{"startTime":731.703,"endTime":735.523,"body":"have the bureaucracy that they"},{"startTime":735.523,"endTime":738.073,"body":"laid down, the timekeeper and"},{"startTime":735.523,"endTime":738.073,"body":"the disciplinarian and all that."},{"startTime":738.073,"endTime":738.253,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":738.403,"endTime":741.163,"body":"Was about keeping that system of control."},{"startTime":741.523,"endTime":744.833,"body":"And again, the modern education"},{"startTime":741.523,"endTime":744.833,"body":"system, MBAs and all that is just"},{"startTime":744.833,"endTime":748.873,"body":"built on top of that structure"},{"startTime":744.833,"endTime":748.873,"body":"anyway, There's a, capitalism ruins"},{"startTime":748.873,"endTime":750.433,"body":"everything aspect of this that I like."},{"startTime":750.463,"endTime":753.843,"body":"The focus on short-term profits and"},{"startTime":750.463,"endTime":753.843,"body":"loading down your workers on cognitive"},{"startTime":753.843,"endTime":759.593,"body":"load and expecting, nine hours a day"},{"startTime":753.843,"endTime":759.593,"body":"to be in the, I'm sorry, 9, 9, 9, 9 6."},{"startTime":759.593,"endTime":763.933,"body":"Is that the, is that the Chinese"},{"startTime":759.593,"endTime":763.933,"body":"like the nine 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM."},{"startTime":764.068,"endTime":764.838,"body":"Six days a week."},{"startTime":764.838,"endTime":765.608,"body":"Six days a week."},{"startTime":765.608,"endTime":768.728,"body":"Is that the, is that the culture like"},{"startTime":765.608,"endTime":768.728,"body":"expecting that out of your people?"},{"startTime":769.008,"endTime":772.378,"body":"Cause you'll just, you know, put them"},{"startTime":769.008,"endTime":772.378,"body":"out on the street to be homeless, not"},{"startTime":772.378,"endTime":778.118,"body":"have shoes, you know, like it's 1914"},{"startTime":772.378,"endTime":778.118,"body":"there's an implied fear-based system"},{"startTime":778.368,"endTime":781.438,"body":"in, in, you know, the system here."},{"startTime":781.688,"endTime":782.938,"body":"So if you look back at, what."},{"startTime":783.188,"endTime":786.158,"body":"The competitive landscape"},{"startTime":783.188,"endTime":786.158,"body":"was like, the products during"},{"startTime":786.178,"endTime":787.938,"body":"Taylorism, during that era."},{"startTime":788.188,"endTime":791.658,"body":"Pretty much everybody was doing"},{"startTime":788.188,"endTime":791.658,"body":"things that were industrialized."},{"startTime":791.708,"endTime":795.928,"body":"Products had a long chain, and people"},{"startTime":791.708,"endTime":795.928,"body":"were building things that were the same."},{"startTime":795.928,"endTime":797.833,"body":"You're essentially stamping out."},{"startTime":798.223,"endTime":802.073,"body":"The same thing over and over"},{"startTime":798.223,"endTime":802.073,"body":"again, where having a checklist"},{"startTime":802.333,"endTime":805.033,"body":"probably was the right thing to do"},{"startTime":802.333,"endTime":805.033,"body":"because you didn't miss something."},{"startTime":805.033,"endTime":809.433,"body":"unfortunately, it was at the cost of"},{"startTime":805.033,"endTime":809.433,"body":"sacrificing all innovation, because the"},{"startTime":809.433,"endTime":811.043,"body":"workers weren't allowed to innovate."},{"startTime":811.293,"endTime":812.993,"body":"It was the consultants only."},{"startTime":813.423,"endTime":814.053,"body":"That was then."},{"startTime":814.303,"endTime":819.903,"body":"Today, we have to respond fast to fast"},{"startTime":814.303,"endTime":819.903,"body":"moving markets, fast moving product"},{"startTime":819.913,"endTime":822.723,"body":"cycles, fast moving customer needs."},{"startTime":822.893,"endTime":827.773,"body":"So you don't really have the"},{"startTime":822.893,"endTime":827.773,"body":"same work environment anymore."},{"startTime":828.033,"endTime":834.533,"body":"And to keep the org structure that harkens"},{"startTime":828.033,"endTime":834.533,"body":"back to that era of Taylorism, even in"},{"startTime":834.573,"endTime":837.913,"body":"today's time, makes absolutely no sense."},{"startTime":838.213,"endTime":841.883,"body":"So this is where you say, well,"},{"startTime":838.213,"endTime":841.883,"body":"you know, you're told what to do."},{"startTime":841.953,"endTime":843.193,"body":"You're told what to build."},{"startTime":843.443,"endTime":847.013,"body":"You're not really encouraged to"},{"startTime":843.443,"endTime":847.013,"body":"talk to customers for the most part."},{"startTime":847.263,"endTime":848.603,"body":"Yeah, we know it's good for them."},{"startTime":848.803,"endTime":851.403,"body":"It's a waste of your time to talk"},{"startTime":848.803,"endTime":851.403,"body":"to the customer because that's"},{"startTime":851.403,"endTime":852.523,"body":"time off the assembly line."},{"startTime":852.523,"endTime":853.883,"body":"That's time off of my checklist,"},{"startTime":853.883,"endTime":857.533,"body":"going back from that time to"},{"startTime":853.883,"endTime":857.533,"body":"coming to today, one thing that's"},{"startTime":857.533,"endTime":860.953,"body":"changed is pretty much everybody"},{"startTime":857.533,"endTime":860.953,"body":"is a knowledge worker today."},{"startTime":861.453,"endTime":864.153,"body":"Even if you're in a factory,"},{"startTime":861.453,"endTime":864.153,"body":"you're a knowledge worker."},{"startTime":864.163,"endTime":866.413,"body":"You have knowledge of"},{"startTime":864.163,"endTime":866.413,"body":"the factories process."},{"startTime":866.653,"endTime":869.963,"body":"You have knowledge of what are"},{"startTime":866.653,"endTime":869.963,"body":"the wastes, if you like, right?"},{"startTime":869.963,"endTime":874.773,"body":"So you could be tapped to kind of improve"},{"startTime":869.963,"endTime":874.773,"body":"on reducing or eliminating those wastes."},{"startTime":875.133,"endTime":876.453,"body":"Savvy companies are doing that."},{"startTime":876.463,"endTime":877.613,"body":"Not everybody's doing that."},{"startTime":877.863,"endTime":882.163,"body":"So the all cultural aspect, again, I go"},{"startTime":877.863,"endTime":882.163,"body":"back to, I'm amazed that people are not"},{"startTime":882.173,"endTime":886.143,"body":"talking more about this and not more"},{"startTime":882.173,"endTime":886.143,"body":"is being done to kind of disrupt this."},{"startTime":886.453,"endTime":889.263,"body":"Other than the Silicon Valley"},{"startTime":886.453,"endTime":889.263,"body":"entrepreneurial culture where"},{"startTime":889.273,"endTime":891.923,"body":"you have flat organizations"},{"startTime":889.273,"endTime":891.923,"body":"and, you know, the Yeah."},{"startTime":892.173,"endTime":895.023,"body":"You know, the, the, the likes"},{"startTime":892.173,"endTime":895.023,"body":"of Zappos, et cetera, right?"},{"startTime":895.063,"endTime":898.193,"body":"That, that's very much a,"},{"startTime":895.063,"endTime":898.193,"body":"very much a small percentage."},{"startTime":898.543,"endTime":904.103,"body":"I think the the three types of"},{"startTime":898.543,"endTime":904.103,"body":"organizations, the bureaucratic,"},{"startTime":904.103,"endTime":906.123,"body":"whatever, and the generative bureaucratic."},{"startTime":906.123,"endTime":907.953,"body":"And I am going to screw this up."},{"startTime":908.393,"endTime":911.823,"body":"The three types of organization,"},{"startTime":908.393,"endTime":911.823,"body":"sociologist, Ron Westrom."},{"startTime":912.323,"endTime":915.868,"body":"In 1988 he developed a topology"},{"startTime":912.323,"endTime":915.868,"body":"of organizational cultures."},{"startTime":916.058,"endTime":919.168,"body":"We we had it on a previous podcast  But"},{"startTime":916.058,"endTime":919.168,"body":"there were three types of organizations,"},{"startTime":919.168,"endTime":922.808,"body":"pathological, meaning power oriented,"},{"startTime":919.168,"endTime":922.808,"body":"bureaucratic, meaning rule oriented,"},{"startTime":922.968,"endTime":926.198,"body":"and then generative, meaning"},{"startTime":922.968,"endTime":926.198,"body":"performance oriented, the startups"},{"startTime":926.248,"endTime":930.083,"body":"that we're thinking of the startups"},{"startTime":926.248,"endTime":930.083,"body":"they are the generative organizations."},{"startTime":930.083,"endTime":933.188,"body":"They are truly trying to"},{"startTime":930.083,"endTime":933.188,"body":"create the whole organization."},{"startTime":933.508,"endTime":937.288,"body":"Is based around creating something"},{"startTime":933.508,"endTime":937.288,"body":"and larger organizations and even"},{"startTime":937.288,"endTime":940.228,"body":"bureaucratic organizations will hear"},{"startTime":937.288,"endTime":940.228,"body":"that and they'll say, Oh, no, I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":940.278,"endTime":942.268,"body":"based on creating something too, right?"},{"startTime":942.278,"endTime":945.928,"body":"Totally, but that's not the real,"},{"startTime":942.278,"endTime":945.928,"body":"the real reason for your organization"},{"startTime":946.238,"endTime":951.438,"body":"is to, so that the people in charge"},{"startTime":946.238,"endTime":951.438,"body":"can show off their power and abuse"},{"startTime":951.468,"endTime":954.258,"body":"people or whatever, like that, that's"},{"startTime":951.468,"endTime":954.258,"body":"the majority of work that happens."},{"startTime":954.748,"endTime":957.818,"body":"Unfortunately, if you've ever been in a"},{"startTime":954.748,"endTime":957.818,"body":"place where politics is the main thing"},{"startTime":957.818,"endTime":961.618,"body":"that happens in the organization That's"},{"startTime":957.818,"endTime":961.618,"body":"because it's a pathological organization,"},{"startTime":961.828,"endTime":965.988,"body":"bureaucratic you can imagine the same"},{"startTime":961.828,"endTime":965.988,"body":"thing, You know who has whose turf and"},{"startTime":965.988,"endTime":969.948,"body":"whatnot and then generative is probably"},{"startTime":965.988,"endTime":969.948,"body":"the startups where every day you're doing"},{"startTime":969.948,"endTime":973.338,"body":"something different and everyone's doing"},{"startTime":969.948,"endTime":973.338,"body":"everything right that kind of thing if"},{"startTime":973.338,"endTime":976.468,"body":"you've ever worked at a startup  and"},{"startTime":973.338,"endTime":976.468,"body":"you've worked at a large company You"},{"startTime":976.468,"endTime":977.658,"body":"don't need this difference explained."},{"startTime":977.668,"endTime":979.998,"body":"You just know it, you know,"},{"startTime":977.668,"endTime":979.998,"body":"well, the culture is different."},{"startTime":980.018,"endTime":983.608,"body":"I mean, yeah, the culture is different,"},{"startTime":980.018,"endTime":983.608,"body":"but there is a reason the culture is"},{"startTime":983.608,"endTime":986.968,"body":"different is because the focus of the"},{"startTime":983.608,"endTime":986.968,"body":"organization is in a different place."},{"startTime":987.108,"endTime":990.418,"body":"And if you stay at a startup long"},{"startTime":987.108,"endTime":990.418,"body":"enough, you'll see the culture shift"},{"startTime":990.448,"endTime":994.068,"body":"from generating towards one of the"},{"startTime":990.448,"endTime":994.068,"body":"other two over time, as the company"},{"startTime":994.068,"endTime":998.153,"body":"grows, you add more and more layers, a"},{"startTime":994.068,"endTime":998.153,"body":"startup could be pathological as well."},{"startTime":998.193,"endTime":1002.053,"body":"I mean, this, you know, you got those"},{"startTime":998.193,"endTime":1002.053,"body":"people, the old control freaks, the"},{"startTime":1002.053,"endTime":1005.993,"body":"old Theranos you know, I can use that"},{"startTime":1002.053,"endTime":1005.993,"body":"name because there's like documentaries"},{"startTime":1005.993,"endTime":1007.473,"body":"about the around us and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1007.483,"endTime":1011.353,"body":"I should stop and check that but also"},{"startTime":1007.483,"endTime":1011.353,"body":"move it on because I want to get to the"},{"startTime":1011.383,"endTime":1012.493,"body":"I want to get to the people."},{"startTime":1012.723,"endTime":1016.603,"body":"I want to get like Curtis says it's"},{"startTime":1012.723,"endTime":1016.603,"body":"about the people and let's get to the"},{"startTime":1016.603,"endTime":1021.203,"body":"most interesting part of this illusion"},{"startTime":1016.603,"endTime":1021.203,"body":"of control which is the people."},{"startTime":1021.493,"endTime":1021.758,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1022.058,"endTime":1025.898,"body":"In the pathological organization,"},{"startTime":1022.058,"endTime":1025.898,"body":"it gets that way because this, this"},{"startTime":1025.898,"endTime":1031.053,"body":"feeling of being in control, Is tied"},{"startTime":1025.898,"endTime":1031.053,"body":"to somebody's identity So like their"},{"startTime":1031.053,"endTime":1035.423,"body":"identity is I am the person in control"},{"startTime":1031.053,"endTime":1035.423,"body":"and then Go back to episode 100 on the"},{"startTime":1035.423,"endTime":1040.713,"body":"fixed mindset like it'd go back on carol"},{"startTime":1035.423,"endTime":1040.713,"body":"dweck's mindset mindset when ed was here."},{"startTime":1040.713,"endTime":1046.153,"body":"The idea that If you answer, I don't know"},{"startTime":1040.713,"endTime":1046.153,"body":"to a question and you were in a leadership"},{"startTime":1046.173,"endTime":1050.403,"body":"like a director level or a vp level or"},{"startTime":1046.173,"endTime":1050.403,"body":"whatever That's like an original sin,"},{"startTime":1050.403,"endTime":1051.813,"body":"basically, in terms of the organization."},{"startTime":1051.813,"endTime":1055.063,"body":"Like, if you realize that, like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1051.813,"endTime":1055.063,"body":"I'm in this position, I'm a leader,"},{"startTime":1055.063,"endTime":1058.023,"body":"or maybe my leader's in a position"},{"startTime":1055.063,"endTime":1058.023,"body":"and they can never say, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1058.313,"endTime":1060.563,"body":"because sometimes I've worked for"},{"startTime":1058.313,"endTime":1060.563,"body":"people that they'll just make something"},{"startTime":1060.563,"endTime":1062.053,"body":"up and it'll be completely nonsense."},{"startTime":1062.053,"endTime":1065.873,"body":"Congratulations, you just found a red"},{"startTime":1062.053,"endTime":1065.873,"body":"flag to let you know, Oh, oh, I'm not"},{"startTime":1065.883,"endTime":1067.923,"body":"in a fast paced, advancing startup."},{"startTime":1068.383,"endTime":1070.073,"body":"I'm in a pathological organization."},{"startTime":1070.143,"endTime":1071.083,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1071.293,"endTime":1072.453,"body":"I've met leaders like that."},{"startTime":1072.453,"endTime":1075.523,"body":"I've worked for some leaders like"},{"startTime":1072.453,"endTime":1075.523,"body":"that where they would make stuff up"},{"startTime":1075.523,"endTime":1078.973,"body":"and then later on when they proved"},{"startTime":1075.523,"endTime":1078.973,"body":"to be wrong I never said that."},{"startTime":1079.023,"endTime":1079.483,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1079.673,"endTime":1082.003,"body":"They'll say well, you're"},{"startTime":1079.673,"endTime":1082.003,"body":"the one who acted on it."},{"startTime":1082.003,"endTime":1082.983,"body":"It must be your decision."},{"startTime":1083.273,"endTime":1087.853,"body":"In those kinds of environments"},{"startTime":1083.273,"endTime":1087.853,"body":"those leaders are there to make"},{"startTime":1087.853,"endTime":1092.273,"body":"sure that everybody that reports"},{"startTime":1087.853,"endTime":1092.273,"body":"to them works by the book."},{"startTime":1092.343,"endTime":1093.093,"body":"Their book."},{"startTime":1093.103,"endTime":1096.523,"body":"So yeah, I mean, I'm sure everybody's"},{"startTime":1093.103,"endTime":1096.523,"body":"come across this at some point"},{"startTime":1096.523,"endTime":1099.583,"body":"if you've been working for a bit"},{"startTime":1096.523,"endTime":1099.583,"body":"in your career, it's a great one."},{"startTime":1099.683,"endTime":1102.953,"body":"There's a great one on the other"},{"startTime":1099.683,"endTime":1102.953,"body":"side, which is quite rare, but it"},{"startTime":1102.953,"endTime":1106.583,"body":"is very refreshing when you see a"},{"startTime":1102.953,"endTime":1106.583,"body":"leader that just says, I don't know."},{"startTime":1106.833,"endTime":1109.183,"body":"So I was at a small it wasn't a startup."},{"startTime":1109.213,"endTime":1110.533,"body":"It was a small software house."},{"startTime":1110.993,"endTime":1111.583,"body":"50 people."},{"startTime":1112.063,"endTime":1113.413,"body":"Global though, right?"},{"startTime":1113.793,"endTime":1119.543,"body":"The leadership was reasonably flat with"},{"startTime":1113.793,"endTime":1119.543,"body":"only two layers and the leader would often"},{"startTime":1119.543,"endTime":1122.123,"body":"say, What would you do in this situation?"},{"startTime":1122.143,"endTime":1122.393,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1122.473,"endTime":1123.463,"body":"And he'd say, Because I don't know."},{"startTime":1123.888,"endTime":1126.418,"body":"You're closer to the situation than I am."},{"startTime":1126.498,"endTime":1127.258,"body":"So what would you do?"},{"startTime":1127.508,"endTime":1129.938,"body":"And he would solicit"},{"startTime":1127.508,"endTime":1129.938,"body":"your input and act on it."},{"startTime":1130.408,"endTime":1131.538,"body":"I thought that was refreshing."},{"startTime":1131.538,"endTime":1134.628,"body":"That was really amazing actually,"},{"startTime":1131.538,"endTime":1134.628,"body":"because he would come out of the"},{"startTime":1134.628,"endTime":1138.658,"body":"customer site back in the day and"},{"startTime":1134.628,"endTime":1138.658,"body":"sit there in front of the customer."},{"startTime":1138.718,"endTime":1140.778,"body":"and this would happen in front"},{"startTime":1138.718,"endTime":1140.778,"body":"of the customer where the"},{"startTime":1140.808,"endTime":1143.038,"body":"customer asks a question to him."},{"startTime":1143.248,"endTime":1143.608,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1143.748,"endTime":1145.698,"body":"And he would say, I don't"},{"startTime":1143.748,"endTime":1145.698,"body":"know, what would you do?"},{"startTime":1146.128,"endTime":1149.198,"body":"And I say something of, well, I'm"},{"startTime":1146.128,"endTime":1149.198,"body":"going to go with what he said."},{"startTime":1149.653,"endTime":1153.543,"body":"Yeah, very empowering Makes me"},{"startTime":1149.653,"endTime":1153.543,"body":"want to share more, you know, Yeah"},{"startTime":1153.603,"endTime":1157.493,"body":"well, it also  it allows you to"},{"startTime":1153.603,"endTime":1157.493,"body":"own The solution the resolution"},{"startTime":1157.493,"endTime":1158.973,"body":"solution, but like both I guess."},{"startTime":1159.353,"endTime":1163.793,"body":"Yeah, but also it's like I have in my"},{"startTime":1159.353,"endTime":1163.793,"body":"mind, the Toyota Kata questions, like"},{"startTime":1163.983,"endTime":1167.363,"body":"the, andon questions are like, what's"},{"startTime":1163.983,"endTime":1167.363,"body":"the situation as you're observing"},{"startTime":1167.363,"endTime":1169.073,"body":"it, you know, what did you expect?"},{"startTime":1169.233,"endTime":1172.183,"body":"What can you do to resolve all the"},{"startTime":1169.233,"endTime":1172.183,"body":"step through the questions that I"},{"startTime":1172.183,"endTime":1173.363,"body":"always mess up in every podcast."},{"startTime":1173.363,"endTime":1176.553,"body":"But it reminds me of that set is like the"},{"startTime":1173.363,"endTime":1176.553,"body":"set of five questions or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1176.553,"endTime":1179.343,"body":"It reminds me of that set of"},{"startTime":1176.553,"endTime":1179.343,"body":"questions is I'm not stepping in."},{"startTime":1179.663,"endTime":1181.973,"body":"I'm not stepping in to"},{"startTime":1179.663,"endTime":1181.973,"body":"tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1182.223,"endTime":1185.713,"body":"I'm stepping in so that"},{"startTime":1182.223,"endTime":1185.713,"body":"you feel supported."},{"startTime":1185.783,"endTime":1189.573,"body":"First of all, I'm there in case you're"},{"startTime":1185.783,"endTime":1189.573,"body":"just like, what is the situation?"},{"startTime":1189.863,"endTime":1191.343,"body":"What did you expect to happen?"},{"startTime":1191.583,"endTime":1192.343,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":1192.693,"endTime":1193.393,"body":"It's my first day."},{"startTime":1193.693,"endTime":1194.043,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1194.123,"endTime":1194.523,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1194.613,"endTime":1195.343,"body":"You need some help."},{"startTime":1195.753,"endTime":1198.153,"body":"Somebody steps in, we give some"},{"startTime":1195.753,"endTime":1198.153,"body":"coaching, get you some help."},{"startTime":1198.483,"endTime":1199.653,"body":"You're not unsupported."},{"startTime":1199.893,"endTime":1202.693,"body":"it's not a, you failed pointing fingers."},{"startTime":1202.988,"endTime":1206.678,"body":"Type of situation i'm here to coach"},{"startTime":1202.988,"endTime":1206.678,"body":"you and to help you through this."},{"startTime":1206.678,"endTime":1210.528,"body":"We're on the same team Yeah, and"},{"startTime":1206.678,"endTime":1210.528,"body":"so where it goes south really fast"},{"startTime":1210.538,"endTime":1215.468,"body":"is when that leader has one of"},{"startTime":1210.538,"endTime":1215.468,"body":"their peers Right within earshot."},{"startTime":1215.858,"endTime":1220.098,"body":"They're not gonna say I don't know in"},{"startTime":1215.858,"endTime":1220.098,"body":"front of their peers that is losing face"},{"startTime":1220.108,"endTime":1224.718,"body":"Yeah, and they're gonna want to do the"},{"startTime":1220.108,"endTime":1224.718,"body":"opposite which is exert their authority"},{"startTime":1224.878,"endTime":1228.018,"body":"and do a little bit of peacocking as"},{"startTime":1224.878,"endTime":1228.018,"body":"I call it unfortunately that has a"},{"startTime":1228.268,"endTime":1233.558,"body":"negative effect on people that work for"},{"startTime":1228.268,"endTime":1233.558,"body":"this leader because That's the behavior"},{"startTime":1233.728,"endTime":1235.438,"body":"and it goes down one of two paths."},{"startTime":1235.678,"endTime":1236.198,"body":"Typically."},{"startTime":1236.228,"endTime":1240.748,"body":"There's only two that i've seen which is"},{"startTime":1236.228,"endTime":1240.748,"body":"Good workers will say this is terrible."},{"startTime":1240.748,"endTime":1242.883,"body":"I'm leaving And so you lose good people."},{"startTime":1243.223,"endTime":1247.773,"body":"The other people that stay will say, Oh,"},{"startTime":1243.223,"endTime":1247.773,"body":"wow, if I do this, I'll get promoted."},{"startTime":1247.773,"endTime":1250.733,"body":"This is the behavior"},{"startTime":1247.773,"endTime":1250.733,"body":"that is expected of me."},{"startTime":1250.913,"endTime":1252.823,"body":"And they start emulating those leaders."},{"startTime":1253.003,"endTime":1253.853,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"startTime":1254.103,"endTime":1256.373,"body":"But like some people,"},{"startTime":1254.103,"endTime":1256.373,"body":"some people really do"},{"startTime":1256.423,"endTime":1259.653,"body":"Like, their heart's in the right place,"},{"startTime":1256.423,"endTime":1259.653,"body":"they know what they should do but they"},{"startTime":1259.653,"endTime":1263.373,"body":"don't push back or they commit to things"},{"startTime":1259.653,"endTime":1263.373,"body":"that they know they can't do, and I feel"},{"startTime":1263.383,"endTime":1267.833,"body":"that is because they're either stressed"},{"startTime":1263.383,"endTime":1267.833,"body":"out or they're under such cognitive load."},{"startTime":1268.283,"endTime":1273.353,"body":"they agree to things that they know"},{"startTime":1268.283,"endTime":1273.353,"body":"Like if they were de stressed Unburdened"},{"startTime":1273.403,"endTime":1277.193,"body":"whatever being like, yeah, they were"},{"startTime":1273.403,"endTime":1277.193,"body":"not stressed, but not in that situation"},{"startTime":1277.573,"endTime":1281.223,"body":"They would make a better choice But"},{"startTime":1277.573,"endTime":1281.223,"body":"because they're already overloaded,"},{"startTime":1281.233,"endTime":1283.913,"body":"they commit to something and then end up"},{"startTime":1281.233,"endTime":1283.913,"body":"working nights and weekends they have the"},{"startTime":1283.913,"endTime":1288.813,"body":"seniority the talent and the positional"},{"startTime":1283.913,"endTime":1288.813,"body":"authority to actually be like, no, we"},{"startTime":1288.813,"endTime":1291.173,"body":"can't do this, but they will say yes."},{"startTime":1291.223,"endTime":1293.483,"body":"I've seen a lot of senior devs,"},{"startTime":1291.223,"endTime":1293.483,"body":"architects, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1293.533,"endTime":1297.043,"body":"Managers, especially but they'll say"},{"startTime":1293.533,"endTime":1297.043,"body":"yes Because they're under this cognitive"},{"startTime":1297.043,"endTime":1299.583,"body":"load of oh, I got these deadlines"},{"startTime":1297.043,"endTime":1299.583,"body":"and I got these other projects going"},{"startTime":1299.583,"endTime":1303.323,"body":"on and I got this And i'm afraid of"},{"startTime":1299.583,"endTime":1303.323,"body":"looking bad or whatever You know,"},{"startTime":1303.333,"endTime":1306.653,"body":"there may be other factors, but the"},{"startTime":1303.333,"endTime":1306.653,"body":"cognitive load is the main factor,"},{"startTime":1306.653,"endTime":1309.753,"body":"Definitely and i'm willing to bet"},{"startTime":1306.653,"endTime":1309.753,"body":"that those people are in that culture"},{"startTime":1309.783,"endTime":1314.353,"body":"where you know, saying no is not"},{"startTime":1309.783,"endTime":1314.353,"body":"really well received Yeah, probably"},{"startTime":1314.383,"endTime":1318.938,"body":"I mean that Like, I, I it's hard"},{"startTime":1314.383,"endTime":1318.938,"body":"to separate a person's identity"},{"startTime":1319.188,"endTime":1322.918,"body":"slash position because some"},{"startTime":1319.188,"endTime":1322.918,"body":"people's position is their identity."},{"startTime":1322.978,"endTime":1323.148,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1323.348,"endTime":1325.798,"body":"Like, oh, I'm a founder in a startup."},{"startTime":1325.798,"endTime":1326.098,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1326.278,"endTime":1327.578,"body":"I'm a VP at a bank."},{"startTime":1327.858,"endTime":1328.808,"body":"Like, that's their identity."},{"startTime":1328.808,"endTime":1330.208,"body":"Like, that is their personality."},{"startTime":1330.208,"endTime":1332.038,"body":"And then these people, like when"},{"startTime":1330.208,"endTime":1332.038,"body":"they get fired, they don't know"},{"startTime":1332.038,"endTime":1332.818,"body":"what to do with their lives."},{"startTime":1332.818,"endTime":1335.258,"body":"They're completely lost because"},{"startTime":1332.818,"endTime":1335.258,"body":"that is what they, you know,"},{"startTime":1335.368,"endTime":1341.558,"body":"it's hard to separate the identity from"},{"startTime":1335.368,"endTime":1341.558,"body":"the person and I'm like it worries me"},{"startTime":1341.718,"endTime":1344.958,"body":"This the like this stuff worries me"},{"startTime":1341.718,"endTime":1344.958,"body":"when I see people like this because"},{"startTime":1345.128,"endTime":1348.708,"body":"they're even when I was in like the"},{"startTime":1345.128,"endTime":1348.708,"body":"agile transformation business Whenever"},{"startTime":1348.708,"endTime":1351.788,"body":"whenever I thought that was a good"},{"startTime":1348.708,"endTime":1351.788,"body":"idea  and like working with people that"},{"startTime":1351.788,"endTime":1354.878,"body":"really knew psychology, that, that part"},{"startTime":1351.788,"endTime":1354.878,"body":"of my career, I started understanding"},{"startTime":1354.878,"endTime":1356.468,"body":"though, like these people have"},{"startTime":1356.468,"endTime":1359.758,"body":"a emotional damage, emotional damage."},{"startTime":1359.758,"endTime":1362.028,"body":"Number one, they don't learn from"},{"startTime":1359.758,"endTime":1362.028,"body":"failures because they don't look"},{"startTime":1362.028,"endTime":1363.678,"body":"at failures as a chance to learn."},{"startTime":1363.688,"endTime":1364.568,"body":"They don't look at it like that."},{"startTime":1364.578,"endTime":1365.168,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":1365.468,"endTime":1369.108,"body":"But even if they fix that, they've got"},{"startTime":1365.468,"endTime":1369.108,"body":"this thing inside of them where they"},{"startTime":1369.118,"endTime":1372.728,"body":"had these chaotic childhoods where"},{"startTime":1369.118,"endTime":1372.728,"body":"they, nothing was under their control."},{"startTime":1372.868,"endTime":1374.928,"body":"So now as adults, they"},{"startTime":1372.868,"endTime":1374.928,"body":"seek to control everything."},{"startTime":1374.928,"endTime":1376.698,"body":"So they need a plan for everything."},{"startTime":1376.828,"endTime":1377.288,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1377.538,"endTime":1381.738,"body":", nothing can be ambiguous, they're"},{"startTime":1377.538,"endTime":1381.738,"body":"these people in my program I talked"},{"startTime":1381.758,"endTime":1385.678,"body":"about earlier in the podcast where"},{"startTime":1381.758,"endTime":1385.678,"body":"they need two years of plans."},{"startTime":1385.928,"endTime":1388.238,"body":"Across a market that might"},{"startTime":1385.928,"endTime":1388.238,"body":"be gone in two years."},{"startTime":1388.408,"endTime":1392.268,"body":"Yeah, they need two years of plans Just"},{"startTime":1388.408,"endTime":1392.268,"body":"so they can feel that their money's"},{"startTime":1392.268,"endTime":1396.368,"body":"being well spent, you know They're not"},{"startTime":1392.268,"endTime":1396.368,"body":"okay with any level of ambiguity and if"},{"startTime":1396.368,"endTime":1399.658,"body":"we start working in six months passes"},{"startTime":1396.368,"endTime":1399.658,"body":"And now we're on a completely different"},{"startTime":1399.658,"endTime":1402.588,"body":"part of the roadmap that we didn't plan"},{"startTime":1399.658,"endTime":1402.588,"body":"in the first place Or let's be honest"},{"startTime":1402.628,"endTime":1407.328,"body":"Gantt chart Now it's somebody's fault"},{"startTime":1402.628,"endTime":1407.328,"body":"because we didn't plan well enough."},{"startTime":1407.488,"endTime":1412.193,"body":"So the next time we plan We're going to"},{"startTime":1407.488,"endTime":1412.193,"body":"spend even more time and go even deeper."},{"startTime":1412.303,"endTime":1414.143,"body":"And now we need three years of plans."},{"startTime":1414.443,"endTime":1418.313,"body":"this pursuit of certainty or"},{"startTime":1414.443,"endTime":1418.313,"body":"the sense of certainty, right."},{"startTime":1418.373,"endTime":1423.033,"body":"In business, that is something"},{"startTime":1418.373,"endTime":1423.033,"body":"that I've seen very, very often"},{"startTime":1423.113,"endTime":1427.043,"body":"go wrong badly when you're looking"},{"startTime":1423.113,"endTime":1427.043,"body":"at plans at 18 plus months out."},{"startTime":1427.483,"endTime":1429.463,"body":"They do that because"},{"startTime":1427.483,"endTime":1429.463,"body":"they're in a position."},{"startTime":1429.713,"endTime":1435.123,"body":"To have to defend a budget typically like"},{"startTime":1429.713,"endTime":1435.123,"body":"they asked for a budget and people above"},{"startTime":1435.123,"endTime":1439.943,"body":"them that grant the money are looking"},{"startTime":1435.123,"endTime":1439.943,"body":"for something, a sense of comfort that"},{"startTime":1439.963,"endTime":1441.543,"body":"you're going to spend the money wisely."},{"startTime":1441.543,"endTime":1442.453,"body":"You're going to have the impact."},{"startTime":1442.453,"endTime":1443.363,"body":"You say you will."},{"startTime":1443.693,"endTime":1444.973,"body":"So how do we know that?"},{"startTime":1445.188,"endTime":1446.428,"body":"Well, here's what I can give you."},{"startTime":1446.468,"endTime":1449.668,"body":"I can give you a Gantt chart"},{"startTime":1446.468,"endTime":1449.668,"body":"that says by March 2025."},{"startTime":1449.668,"endTime":1451.298,"body":"We will be on Saturn."},{"startTime":1451.398,"endTime":1451.588,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1451.648,"endTime":1451.998,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1452.058,"endTime":1455.538,"body":"Actually, this is a great, this"},{"startTime":1452.058,"endTime":1455.538,"body":"is actually a great example of the"},{"startTime":1455.538,"endTime":1459.968,"body":"Gantt chart plan is like, here's"},{"startTime":1455.538,"endTime":1459.968,"body":"our, here's our 15 year plan."},{"startTime":1460.313,"endTime":1465.963,"body":"It costs bajillion dollars to put a man"},{"startTime":1460.313,"endTime":1465.963,"body":"on the surface of Saturn and nobody in"},{"startTime":1465.963,"endTime":1469.353,"body":"the room ever just stood up and raised"},{"startTime":1465.963,"endTime":1469.353,"body":"their hands like excuse me I don't think"},{"startTime":1469.363,"endTime":1471.133,"body":"the service of Saturn is actually solid."},{"startTime":1471.133,"endTime":1472.823,"body":"I think it's, I think it's a gas giant."},{"startTime":1472.963,"endTime":1474.463,"body":"You, you're fired."},{"startTime":1474.613,"endTime":1475.073,"body":"Get out."},{"startTime":1475.323,"endTime":1476.273,"body":"You're the troublemaker."},{"startTime":1476.313,"endTime":1477.083,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1477.093,"endTime":1477.593,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1477.653,"endTime":1483.573,"body":"So these people have these plans, and to"},{"startTime":1477.653,"endTime":1483.573,"body":"your point, you know, the minute it starts"},{"startTime":1483.573,"endTime":1487.948,"body":"to deviate, They're looking for someone"},{"startTime":1483.573,"endTime":1487.948,"body":"to blame someone to sacrifice, right?"},{"startTime":1488.358,"endTime":1490.648,"body":"What happens in that"},{"startTime":1488.358,"endTime":1490.648,"body":"organization though, right?"},{"startTime":1490.698,"endTime":1491.968,"body":"They sacrifice somebody."},{"startTime":1492.318,"endTime":1497.778,"body":"Okay, and now the plan is now adjusted"},{"startTime":1492.318,"endTime":1497.778,"body":"Re baselined is the technical term right"},{"startTime":1497.818,"endTime":1502.128,"body":"in project management and you follow"},{"startTime":1497.818,"endTime":1502.128,"body":"another path and you're doomed to repeat"},{"startTime":1502.128,"endTime":1506.958,"body":"that again and again so either your"},{"startTime":1502.128,"endTime":1506.958,"body":"plan is Superiors will get fed up with"},{"startTime":1506.958,"endTime":1511.208,"body":"you and say you have a repeat pattern"},{"startTime":1506.958,"endTime":1511.208,"body":"here of not delivering and you're gone."},{"startTime":1511.698,"endTime":1516.358,"body":"Or you keep firing people under you"},{"startTime":1511.698,"endTime":1516.358,"body":"where you don't even build up enough, you"},{"startTime":1516.358,"endTime":1520.898,"body":"know, Trust equity with those people that"},{"startTime":1516.358,"endTime":1520.898,"body":"can actually help you deliver anything."},{"startTime":1521.288,"endTime":1526.768,"body":"So as an interim thing like few months,"},{"startTime":1521.288,"endTime":1526.768,"body":"maybe a year or so if you're there great"},{"startTime":1526.818,"endTime":1531.023,"body":"collect the paycheck do that But keep"},{"startTime":1526.818,"endTime":1531.023,"body":"that resume updated because it's a very"},{"startTime":1531.023,"endTime":1533.023,"body":"tenuous situation to be in as a leader."},{"startTime":1533.073,"endTime":1535.853,"body":"We're in the part of the podcast"},{"startTime":1533.073,"endTime":1535.853,"body":"that I really want to talk about the,"},{"startTime":1536.143,"endTime":1541.093,"body":"let's put aside the slowly rolling and"},{"startTime":1536.143,"endTime":1541.093,"body":"picking up size and steam and speed"},{"startTime":1541.433,"endTime":1543.813,"body":"and, and, and lethality snowball."},{"startTime":1544.063,"endTime":1547.883,"body":"Of cognitive dissonance in leadership"},{"startTime":1544.063,"endTime":1547.883,"body":"for a second because I want to ask you"},{"startTime":1547.883,"endTime":1552.193,"body":"as a enterprise coach When you spot"},{"startTime":1547.883,"endTime":1552.193,"body":"these characteristics of these like oh,"},{"startTime":1552.203,"endTime":1556.913,"body":"like i've encountered a person in the"},{"startTime":1552.203,"endTime":1556.913,"body":"program or a person in a partner program"},{"startTime":1556.913,"endTime":1561.083,"body":"or whatever i'm trying to like deal with"},{"startTime":1556.913,"endTime":1561.083,"body":"like i'm trying to knock down dependencies"},{"startTime":1561.193,"endTime":1565.703,"body":"across the org And you deal with these"},{"startTime":1561.193,"endTime":1565.703,"body":"people who just clearly have this, this"},{"startTime":1566.093,"endTime":1568.183,"body":"a fixed mindset about a fear of failure."},{"startTime":1568.203,"endTime":1572.783,"body":"Like they're, they're completely"},{"startTime":1568.203,"endTime":1572.783,"body":"not going to learn from failure."},{"startTime":1572.913,"endTime":1575.853,"body":"Hopefully you are aligned at a"},{"startTime":1572.913,"endTime":1575.853,"body":"leadership level where you can say"},{"startTime":1575.903,"endTime":1578.593,"body":"look, you can either develop these"},{"startTime":1575.903,"endTime":1578.593,"body":"people and keep them with you."},{"startTime":1578.673,"endTime":1578.973,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1579.063,"endTime":1581.263,"body":"They have some flaws, you"},{"startTime":1579.063,"endTime":1581.263,"body":"might want to address them."},{"startTime":1581.513,"endTime":1584.853,"body":"Or you're not aligned at that"},{"startTime":1581.513,"endTime":1584.853,"body":"level and you know there's"},{"startTime":1584.863,"endTime":1585.933,"body":"very little that you can do."},{"startTime":1585.993,"endTime":1587.353,"body":"It seems untenable."},{"startTime":1587.603,"endTime":1588.853,"body":"Yeah, that's the right word."},{"startTime":1588.863,"endTime":1589.553,"body":"It is untenable."},{"startTime":1589.593,"endTime":1593.453,"body":"I think some people you can bend them"},{"startTime":1589.593,"endTime":1593.453,"body":"away from the situation a little bit."},{"startTime":1593.813,"endTime":1598.113,"body":"Some others  you can moderate the"},{"startTime":1593.813,"endTime":1598.113,"body":"situation by saying, I see your plan."},{"startTime":1598.163,"endTime":1602.013,"body":"What degree of confidence do you"},{"startTime":1598.163,"endTime":1602.013,"body":"have in that March 2025 date?"},{"startTime":1602.263,"endTime":1606.053,"body":"If the date were to be July instead,"},{"startTime":1602.263,"endTime":1606.053,"body":"Would your degree of confidence go up?"},{"startTime":1606.303,"endTime":1606.633,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1606.903,"endTime":1610.963,"body":"So you can try and do that, arriving"},{"startTime":1606.903,"endTime":1610.963,"body":"at a point where there's a little"},{"startTime":1611.293,"endTime":1615.453,"body":"bit more of a comfort level in the"},{"startTime":1611.293,"endTime":1615.453,"body":"plan that they're putting together."},{"startTime":1615.653,"endTime":1618.773,"body":"But more often than not, what"},{"startTime":1615.653,"endTime":1618.773,"body":"happens is these people are"},{"startTime":1619.023,"endTime":1621.273,"body":"embedded in the organization."},{"startTime":1621.663,"endTime":1623.333,"body":"As a coach, you're a visitor."},{"startTime":1623.363,"endTime":1626.293,"body":"You're coming in, you're a catalyst,"},{"startTime":1623.363,"endTime":1626.293,"body":"and you're going to be gone."},{"startTime":1626.713,"endTime":1628.463,"body":"So you can't really change that."},{"startTime":1628.463,"endTime":1630.483,"body":"You won't be able to, you"},{"startTime":1628.463,"endTime":1630.483,"body":"know, win City Hall, right?"},{"startTime":1630.483,"endTime":1634.133,"body":"So one of the things you can do is"},{"startTime":1630.483,"endTime":1634.133,"body":"to say, We can have these plans,"},{"startTime":1634.293,"endTime":1636.093,"body":"but let's have subsidiary plans."},{"startTime":1636.143,"endTime":1639.953,"body":"Let's have plans that say we'll"},{"startTime":1636.143,"endTime":1639.953,"body":"pick up on when we get to,"},{"startTime":1640.253,"endTime":1641.793,"body":"for example, let's say March."},{"startTime":1641.853,"endTime":1642.423,"body":"I can't remember."},{"startTime":1642.603,"endTime":1645.403,"body":"Anyway, let's say it was"},{"startTime":1642.603,"endTime":1645.403,"body":"March 25 to be on Saturday."},{"startTime":1645.403,"endTime":1647.531,"body":"Let's wait till the end of January."},{"startTime":1647.531,"endTime":1651.693,"body":"And then we'll say, well, we're nowhere"},{"startTime":1647.531,"endTime":1651.693,"body":"near on that plan, on that trajectory."},{"startTime":1651.943,"endTime":1652.283,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1652.533,"endTime":1653.263,"body":"What do we do?"},{"startTime":1653.583,"endTime":1657.803,"body":"Well, can we examine this other trajectory"},{"startTime":1653.583,"endTime":1657.803,"body":"that has us getting out there in November"},{"startTime":1657.803,"endTime":1661.633,"body":"instead of March, and given what just"},{"startTime":1657.803,"endTime":1661.633,"body":"happened, that we shifted from March to"},{"startTime":1661.633,"endTime":1665.363,"body":"November, do you really want to forecast"},{"startTime":1661.633,"endTime":1665.363,"body":"November because it's further out, it's"},{"startTime":1665.373,"endTime":1667.143,"body":"more ambiguous, you don't know stuff?"},{"startTime":1667.393,"endTime":1670.243,"body":"So how about we say sometime,"},{"startTime":1667.393,"endTime":1670.243,"body":"like, maybe next March?"},{"startTime":1670.533,"endTime":1671.573,"body":"And we'll surprise people."},{"startTime":1671.573,"endTime":1675.043,"body":"If we go there sooner, I try and"},{"startTime":1671.573,"endTime":1675.043,"body":"coach that kind of, you know,"},{"startTime":1675.293,"endTime":1676.683,"body":"mentality, if you will, right."},{"startTime":1676.683,"endTime":1681.453,"body":"and give everyone a range, don't say"},{"startTime":1676.683,"endTime":1681.453,"body":"Mars, just say somewhere between X and Y."},{"startTime":1681.523,"endTime":1684.243,"body":"I want to stay in the weeds for a second"},{"startTime":1681.523,"endTime":1684.243,"body":"because I want to ask about budgeting."},{"startTime":1684.443,"endTime":1687.263,"body":"So like, what, what if they come"},{"startTime":1684.443,"endTime":1687.263,"body":"back and you're like, Oh, okay."},{"startTime":1687.263,"endTime":1690.083,"body":"Oh, I see that you're targeting"},{"startTime":1687.263,"endTime":1690.083,"body":"March or,  but all of our budgeting"},{"startTime":1690.083,"endTime":1693.063,"body":"is done  12 months ahead, but"},{"startTime":1690.083,"endTime":1693.063,"body":"we need to lock that budget 12"},{"startTime":1693.063,"endTime":1694.783,"body":"months ahead in this many months."},{"startTime":1694.793,"endTime":1698.343,"body":"So like, really we're like"},{"startTime":1694.793,"endTime":1698.343,"body":"18 months out forecasting a"},{"startTime":1698.343,"endTime":1699.683,"body":"budget for the next 12 months."},{"startTime":1699.893,"endTime":1703.473,"body":"Like, you know, the year is only"},{"startTime":1699.893,"endTime":1703.473,"body":"like six months in, and we're already"},{"startTime":1703.473,"endTime":1704.633,"body":"doing the budget for the next year."},{"startTime":1704.633,"endTime":1707.463,"body":"So like, What would you say if"},{"startTime":1704.633,"endTime":1707.463,"body":"like they're using that against"},{"startTime":1707.463,"endTime":1708.333,"body":"you to be like, no, no, no way."},{"startTime":1708.333,"endTime":1711.293,"body":"Like, I understand what you're saying on"},{"startTime":1708.333,"endTime":1711.293,"body":"like, you know, you want to do your thing,"},{"startTime":1711.293,"endTime":1714.223,"body":"but we can't do three months because"},{"startTime":1711.293,"endTime":1714.223,"body":"we do our budgets 12 months at a time."},{"startTime":1714.243,"endTime":1715.243,"body":"And that's just organizational."},{"startTime":1715.243,"endTime":1716.743,"body":"That's just what we do organizationally."},{"startTime":1716.743,"endTime":1720.683,"body":"I mean, in that situation, ideally,"},{"startTime":1716.743,"endTime":1720.683,"body":"the fallacy of annual budgeting for"},{"startTime":1721.053,"endTime":1724.273,"body":"software projects, especially, if you're"},{"startTime":1721.053,"endTime":1724.273,"body":"not going to be able to change that"},{"startTime":1724.283,"endTime":1729.438,"body":"organization's Mindset and thinking"},{"startTime":1724.283,"endTime":1729.438,"body":"from away from annual project level"},{"startTime":1729.508,"endTime":1732.348,"body":"budgeting to product feature budgeting."},{"startTime":1732.398,"endTime":1735.128,"body":"If you're not gonna be able to do that,"},{"startTime":1732.398,"endTime":1735.128,"body":"one of the things you could try to do is"},{"startTime":1735.128,"endTime":1737.328,"body":"to say, Let's do micro budgeting instead."},{"startTime":1737.758,"endTime":1738.588,"body":"So 12 months."},{"startTime":1738.608,"endTime":1740.218,"body":"Okay, can we look at that?"},{"startTime":1740.328,"endTime":1745.148,"body":"Can we do quarterly budgeting and"},{"startTime":1740.328,"endTime":1745.148,"body":"have a milestones at a quarterly"},{"startTime":1745.148,"endTime":1747.228,"body":"level that we can try and hit, right?"},{"startTime":1747.278,"endTime":1750.888,"body":"It gives us the opportunity"},{"startTime":1747.278,"endTime":1750.888,"body":"to pivot faster if we don't"},{"startTime":1750.898,"endTime":1752.468,"body":"make that quarterly budget."},{"startTime":1752.508,"endTime":1755.888,"body":"And as the product manager here,"},{"startTime":1752.508,"endTime":1755.888,"body":"your finance folks will resist"},{"startTime":1756.138,"endTime":1759.328,"body":"doing quarterly budgeting because"},{"startTime":1756.138,"endTime":1759.328,"body":"they'll say, Oh my goodness, this big"},{"startTime":1759.588,"endTime":1762.208,"body":"budgeting activity, I got to do it"},{"startTime":1759.588,"endTime":1762.208,"body":"four times now instead of one time."},{"startTime":1762.498,"endTime":1765.618,"body":"Yes, but it is much smaller."},{"startTime":1765.678,"endTime":1766.118,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1766.608,"endTime":1770.298,"body":"And  if the gripes are, well,"},{"startTime":1766.608,"endTime":1770.298,"body":"I can't break up my engineering"},{"startTime":1770.298,"endTime":1772.988,"body":"spend because I only get the AWS"},{"startTime":1770.298,"endTime":1772.988,"body":"bill once a year or whatever."},{"startTime":1773.268,"endTime":1776.298,"body":"First of all, you don't get the AWS bill"},{"startTime":1773.268,"endTime":1776.298,"body":"once a year,  you get it every month."},{"startTime":1776.498,"endTime":1777.828,"body":"So it's already broken up that way."},{"startTime":1778.078,"endTime":1780.968,"body":"And if you can't break it up by product,"},{"startTime":1778.078,"endTime":1780.968,"body":"you have a different problem you need"},{"startTime":1780.968,"endTime":1783.098,"body":"to solve, which you should solve anyway."},{"startTime":1783.428,"endTime":1787.618,"body":"But from a product perspective"},{"startTime":1783.428,"endTime":1787.618,"body":"the product should have PNL, which"},{"startTime":1787.618,"endTime":1789.348,"body":"cuts across all the technology."},{"startTime":1789.618,"endTime":1793.968,"body":"Yes, if the first time you break"},{"startTime":1789.618,"endTime":1793.968,"body":"it up, it may be painful, but  you"},{"startTime":1793.968,"endTime":1797.858,"body":"actually  become much more nimble in"},{"startTime":1793.968,"endTime":1797.858,"body":"this process if you  do it quarterly."},{"startTime":1798.108,"endTime":1801.488,"body":"I'll tell you what, another big"},{"startTime":1798.108,"endTime":1801.488,"body":"benefit of doing it that way is this,"},{"startTime":1801.758,"endTime":1805.363,"body":"if you're looking at a budget at a"},{"startTime":1801.758,"endTime":1805.363,"body":"quarter level and you have things that"},{"startTime":1805.363,"endTime":1808.748,"body":"you could be spending money on and"},{"startTime":1805.363,"endTime":1808.748,"body":"you have, you have options, right?"},{"startTime":1808.768,"endTime":1808.968,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1809.198,"endTime":1814.828,"body":"It allows you to switch between options"},{"startTime":1809.198,"endTime":1814.828,"body":"a lot better than So, an example is,"},{"startTime":1814.998,"endTime":1817.628,"body":"let's say you have three options that"},{"startTime":1814.998,"endTime":1817.628,"body":"you could be spending your money on."},{"startTime":1817.968,"endTime":1820.688,"body":"You start down the path of"},{"startTime":1817.968,"endTime":1820.688,"body":"option A because everybody agreed"},{"startTime":1820.688,"endTime":1821.708,"body":"that was the right thing to do."},{"startTime":1822.198,"endTime":1824.728,"body":"You get into it a little bit and"},{"startTime":1822.198,"endTime":1824.728,"body":"find, well, maybe that's not."},{"startTime":1824.768,"endTime":1826.428,"body":"Option B has more merit now."},{"startTime":1826.708,"endTime":1830.728,"body":"So, If you're doing quarterly you could"},{"startTime":1826.708,"endTime":1830.728,"body":"say well, let's switch now and let's"},{"startTime":1830.728,"endTime":1832.738,"body":"not wait until the budget runs out"},{"startTime":1832.988,"endTime":1837.448,"body":"so that's the I guess the model that I"},{"startTime":1832.988,"endTime":1837.448,"body":"try and explain to people Because they"},{"startTime":1837.448,"endTime":1839.308,"body":"don't know what they don't know, right?"},{"startTime":1839.618,"endTime":1843.728,"body":"unfortunately large organizations"},{"startTime":1839.618,"endTime":1843.728,"body":"don't really Listen to that."},{"startTime":1843.748,"endTime":1844.118,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1844.118,"endTime":1847.608,"body":"Well, I mean like it goes like earlier"},{"startTime":1844.118,"endTime":1847.608,"body":"on the podcast we already talked about"},{"startTime":1847.608,"endTime":1852.608,"body":"like large the large organization has"},{"startTime":1847.608,"endTime":1852.608,"body":"large organizational inertia and Steering"},{"startTime":1852.608,"endTime":1856.948,"body":"that ship is like, you know But pull the"},{"startTime":1852.608,"endTime":1856.948,"body":"wheel a half a degree in to the right"},{"startTime":1856.988,"endTime":1859.238,"body":"and then wait a couple months, right?"},{"startTime":1859.478,"endTime":1863.128,"body":"You know that even the people at the"},{"startTime":1859.478,"endTime":1863.128,"body":"top find it very difficult  and it"},{"startTime":1863.128,"endTime":1866.418,"body":"takes a lot of effort and a lot of"},{"startTime":1863.128,"endTime":1866.418,"body":"dedication to sear that ship and they"},{"startTime":1866.418,"endTime":1871.373,"body":"have to stay on it Because again, like"},{"startTime":1866.418,"endTime":1871.373,"body":"just the inertia of the system will"},{"startTime":1871.373,"endTime":1875.103,"body":"move it back to its natural course"},{"startTime":1871.373,"endTime":1875.103,"body":"without constant pressure on the system."},{"startTime":1875.103,"endTime":1876.703,"body":"But it is possible to change the system."},{"startTime":1876.973,"endTime":1878.253,"body":"It's possible to change finances."},{"startTime":1878.263,"endTime":1879.773,"body":"I've done it more than once in my career."},{"startTime":1879.783,"endTime":1881.143,"body":"Like it's for product."},{"startTime":1881.153,"endTime":1884.143,"body":"I'm amazed that you don't do this."},{"startTime":1884.383,"endTime":1887.253,"body":"Well, especially for software"},{"startTime":1884.383,"endTime":1887.253,"body":"products, because  you don't"},{"startTime":1887.253,"endTime":1890.863,"body":"have the expense and the pain of"},{"startTime":1887.253,"endTime":1890.863,"body":"having to retool an assembly line."},{"startTime":1891.343,"endTime":1892.763,"body":"But what if they use the opposite?"},{"startTime":1893.188,"endTime":1897.228,"body":"Argument on you and say, I can't plan"},{"startTime":1893.188,"endTime":1897.228,"body":"more often than yearly because so"},{"startTime":1897.228,"endTime":1899.128,"body":"much of our work is, unpredictable."},{"startTime":1899.228,"endTime":1901.948,"body":"So  I just have to have this team and"},{"startTime":1899.228,"endTime":1901.948,"body":"they're dedicated to this product, but"},{"startTime":1901.948,"endTime":1902.998,"body":"I never know what they're going to do."},{"startTime":1902.998,"endTime":1904.478,"body":"So I can't plan at all."},{"startTime":1904.978,"endTime":1907.238,"body":"That's the opposite argument"},{"startTime":1904.978,"endTime":1907.238,"body":"to the opposite argument"},{"startTime":1907.238,"endTime":1908.748,"body":"because they are unpredictable."},{"startTime":1909.048,"endTime":1914.468,"body":"That simply underscores the need to plan"},{"startTime":1909.048,"endTime":1914.468,"body":"more frequently, not less frequently."},{"startTime":1914.718,"endTime":1918.478,"body":"Because what if you plan something"},{"startTime":1914.718,"endTime":1918.478,"body":"at an annual level or even six"},{"startTime":1918.478,"endTime":1921.178,"body":"months and the team is going to"},{"startTime":1918.478,"endTime":1921.178,"body":"do something completely different?"},{"startTime":1921.428,"endTime":1924.098,"body":"You'd rather pivot as soon as you can."},{"startTime":1924.308,"endTime":1924.678,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1924.888,"endTime":1926.448,"body":"So how soon is that?"},{"startTime":1926.698,"endTime":1928.348,"body":"That's the question back to them, right?"},{"startTime":1928.568,"endTime":1932.028,"body":"Well, the organization I'm thinking of"},{"startTime":1928.568,"endTime":1932.028,"body":"right now is they had a, what we think"},{"startTime":1932.028,"endTime":1935.678,"body":"of as like a keep the lights on team,"},{"startTime":1932.028,"endTime":1935.678,"body":"but the keep, keep the lights on team."},{"startTime":1935.938,"endTime":1937.488,"body":"Wasn't really just to"},{"startTime":1935.938,"endTime":1937.488,"body":"keep the lights on team."},{"startTime":1937.498,"endTime":1938.608,"body":"They did do feature development."},{"startTime":1938.608,"endTime":1941.538,"body":"It was like the product was in sunset,"},{"startTime":1938.608,"endTime":1941.538,"body":"but it was like some of this weird"},{"startTime":1941.548,"endTime":1943.618,"body":"state between maintenance and sunset."},{"startTime":1943.708,"endTime":1946.968,"body":"Like we did a podcast on this"},{"startTime":1943.708,"endTime":1946.968,"body":"life cycles  but in that."},{"startTime":1947.298,"endTime":1950.448,"body":"In that circumstance, they're"},{"startTime":1947.298,"endTime":1950.448,"body":"resisting doing any planning."},{"startTime":1950.698,"endTime":1955.558,"body":"And I'm wondering, if in that kind of"},{"startTime":1950.698,"endTime":1955.558,"body":"organization where they don't exactly"},{"startTime":1955.558,"endTime":1958.588,"body":"know,  when they're going to flex and"},{"startTime":1955.558,"endTime":1958.588,"body":"have extra time when they're going"},{"startTime":1958.588,"endTime":1962.598,"body":"to, be able to do feature development"},{"startTime":1958.588,"endTime":1962.598,"body":"versus just fighting fires or whatever,"},{"startTime":1962.598,"endTime":1965.698,"body":"what would your advice to that kind"},{"startTime":1962.598,"endTime":1965.698,"body":"of organization be where they're not"},{"startTime":1965.798,"endTime":1970.858,"body":"sure how they could have a sprint"},{"startTime":1965.798,"endTime":1970.858,"body":"or two where they did make a plan."},{"startTime":1971.108,"endTime":1973.368,"body":"They had a goal for a month"},{"startTime":1971.108,"endTime":1973.368,"body":"and then something blew up."},{"startTime":1973.498,"endTime":1973.708,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1973.708,"endTime":1977.088,"body":"They had to like put everything on"},{"startTime":1973.708,"endTime":1977.088,"body":"hold, fix the fires or whatever."},{"startTime":1977.088,"endTime":1980.488,"body":"maybe they only have a week of actual"},{"startTime":1977.088,"endTime":1980.488,"body":"feature development done obviously"},{"startTime":1980.488,"endTime":1985.078,"body":"investing in the product by throwing more"},{"startTime":1980.488,"endTime":1985.078,"body":"money at it is the real solution, but."},{"startTime":1985.183,"endTime":1988.733,"body":"most companies try to avoid that"},{"startTime":1985.183,"endTime":1988.733,"body":"until the bitter end at that stage"},{"startTime":1988.733,"endTime":1990.933,"body":"in the product life cycle, they"},{"startTime":1988.733,"endTime":1990.933,"body":"don't want to invest more money."},{"startTime":1991.193,"endTime":1992.903,"body":"So there's only two paths here, right?"},{"startTime":1992.933,"endTime":1998.103,"body":"One is you hive off a team that is"},{"startTime":1992.933,"endTime":1998.103,"body":"simply keeping the lights on versus"},{"startTime":1998.103,"endTime":1999.633,"body":"a team that's building features."},{"startTime":1999.933,"endTime":2000.993,"body":"I don't like that as much."},{"startTime":2001.243,"endTime":2004.963,"body":"The uncertainty, the uncertain"},{"startTime":2001.243,"endTime":2004.963,"body":"nature of incoming production issues."},{"startTime":2005.233,"endTime":2009.913,"body":"and the people that are in that"},{"startTime":2005.233,"endTime":2009.913,"body":"KTLO team all they're ever doing"},{"startTime":2009.913,"endTime":2011.973,"body":"is fixing firefighting, right?"},{"startTime":2011.973,"endTime":2013.563,"body":"They're not learning new things."},{"startTime":2013.563,"endTime":2015.303,"body":"They don't have the luxury to do that."},{"startTime":2015.763,"endTime":2019.793,"body":"The other model that I like a little"},{"startTime":2015.763,"endTime":2019.793,"body":"better is you have a team and you reserve"},{"startTime":2019.793,"endTime":2024.693,"body":"some capacity in the team, in your sprint"},{"startTime":2019.793,"endTime":2024.693,"body":"to do these fixes, you can look back."},{"startTime":2024.983,"endTime":2028.863,"body":"Half a dozen sprints and see again,"},{"startTime":2024.983,"endTime":2028.863,"body":"you know, past performance is no"},{"startTime":2028.863,"endTime":2033.123,"body":"guarantee, et cetera, but you can look"},{"startTime":2028.863,"endTime":2033.123,"body":"back as a guide and say 15 percent of"},{"startTime":2033.123,"endTime":2036.813,"body":"the sprint was spent on average for"},{"startTime":2033.123,"endTime":2036.813,"body":"the last six sprints on bug fixes."},{"startTime":2036.993,"endTime":2040.583,"body":"So you could allocate 15, 20"},{"startTime":2036.993,"endTime":2040.583,"body":"percent of your team's capacity."},{"startTime":2040.993,"endTime":2043.833,"body":"So let's say you were 20%, right."},{"startTime":2043.833,"endTime":2045.843,"body":"And in the next sprint,"},{"startTime":2043.833,"endTime":2045.843,"body":"you didn't have as many."},{"startTime":2046.093,"endTime":2047.923,"body":"It's not like people"},{"startTime":2046.093,"endTime":2047.923,"body":"are sitting around idle."},{"startTime":2047.943,"endTime":2049.263,"body":"You're simply saying when."},{"startTime":2049.518,"endTime":2053.918,"body":"This stuff comes in, it goes at"},{"startTime":2049.518,"endTime":2053.918,"body":"the top of the Kanban lane, right?"},{"startTime":2053.938,"endTime":2057.718,"body":"In the kind of production issues"},{"startTime":2053.938,"endTime":2057.718,"body":"lane, and people can work on that."},{"startTime":2057.968,"endTime":2062.478,"body":"And I like the idea of having any"},{"startTime":2057.968,"endTime":2062.478,"body":"team member be able to swarm on that"},{"startTime":2062.478,"endTime":2066.738,"body":"issue, as opposed to specialists"},{"startTime":2062.478,"endTime":2066.738,"body":"that just do bug fixes, right?"},{"startTime":2067.108,"endTime":2069.978,"body":"So that model works pretty well"},{"startTime":2067.108,"endTime":2069.978,"body":"because you're not going to have"},{"startTime":2070.058,"endTime":2072.188,"body":"idle time with team members."},{"startTime":2072.188,"endTime":2075.058,"body":"They're always working the"},{"startTime":2072.188,"endTime":2075.058,"body":"20 percent that I mentioned."},{"startTime":2075.068,"endTime":2076.018,"body":"If they don't use it."},{"startTime":2076.483,"endTime":2080.523,"body":"They feel free to pick up from the top"},{"startTime":2076.483,"endTime":2080.523,"body":"of the stack of the backlog, pick up"},{"startTime":2080.523,"endTime":2084.613,"body":"something, refactor, maybe learn new,"},{"startTime":2080.523,"endTime":2084.613,"body":"you know, new tools or something, right?"},{"startTime":2084.753,"endTime":2086.663,"body":"So they can always do"},{"startTime":2084.753,"endTime":2086.663,"body":"something productive."},{"startTime":2087.093,"endTime":2089.313,"body":"That model, I think,"},{"startTime":2087.093,"endTime":2089.313,"body":"is a better way to go."},{"startTime":2089.543,"endTime":2093.903,"body":"We were talking about the category of"},{"startTime":2089.543,"endTime":2093.903,"body":"cognitive dissonance,  and I wanted"},{"startTime":2093.903,"endTime":2097.053,"body":"to save this category, because you"},{"startTime":2093.903,"endTime":2097.053,"body":"said something on this podcast  A lot"},{"startTime":2097.053,"endTime":2100.453,"body":"of people in leadership, and I know"},{"startTime":2097.053,"endTime":2100.453,"body":"for a fact, I've heard recruiters say"},{"startTime":2100.453,"endTime":2106.253,"body":"this is well, past performance is the"},{"startTime":2100.453,"endTime":2106.253,"body":"best indicator of future results and"},{"startTime":2106.703,"endTime":2111.553,"body":"me coming from a software development"},{"startTime":2106.703,"endTime":2111.553,"body":"background knows past performance does not"},{"startTime":2111.553,"endTime":2115.953,"body":"necessarily in any way, shape or form have"},{"startTime":2111.553,"endTime":2115.953,"body":"anything to do with the future results."},{"startTime":2116.033,"endTime":2120.853,"body":"The program I was talking about, they got"},{"startTime":2116.033,"endTime":2120.853,"body":"a guy who was a dashboards product guy."},{"startTime":2121.343,"endTime":2124.513,"body":"And they brought him over to"},{"startTime":2121.343,"endTime":2124.513,"body":"manage backend,  data pipelines"},{"startTime":2124.513,"endTime":2126.163,"body":"and transformation teams."},{"startTime":2126.533,"endTime":2128.083,"body":"And he completely flailed."},{"startTime":2128.143,"endTime":2133.373,"body":"He legitimately thought that he knew"},{"startTime":2128.143,"endTime":2133.373,"body":"everything until he, until a failure"},{"startTime":2133.373,"endTime":2137.383,"body":"started happening and it started rolling"},{"startTime":2133.373,"endTime":2137.383,"body":"back to him and he started realizing, you"},{"startTime":2137.383,"endTime":2141.873,"body":"know, obviously he would never say that"},{"startTime":2137.383,"endTime":2141.873,"body":"because this, this was a very pathological"},{"startTime":2142.133,"endTime":2146.443,"body":"organization, so he couldn't say it"},{"startTime":2142.133,"endTime":2146.443,"body":"out loud, but by his actions, he knew"},{"startTime":2146.473,"endTime":2150.663,"body":"that he had made a bad decision and he"},{"startTime":2146.473,"endTime":2150.663,"body":"would quickly roll back and, you know,"},{"startTime":2151.023,"endTime":2152.403,"body":"probably blame somebody or whatever."},{"startTime":2152.673,"endTime":2156.723,"body":"But  that idea of, Oh, because"},{"startTime":2152.673,"endTime":2156.723,"body":"you were successful here."},{"startTime":2156.723,"endTime":2158.293,"body":"I like I'm that's my identity."},{"startTime":2158.353,"endTime":2160.123,"body":"I am a successful product manager."},{"startTime":2160.373,"endTime":2164.273,"body":"I can take a program that's in chaos"},{"startTime":2160.373,"endTime":2164.273,"body":"and whip it into shape and whatever."},{"startTime":2164.463,"endTime":2167.943,"body":"And then I go to somewhere else and I try"},{"startTime":2164.463,"endTime":2167.943,"body":"to do that and now I'm totally failing."},{"startTime":2168.193,"endTime":2168.853,"body":"All right, so."},{"startTime":2169.103,"endTime":2173.473,"body":"Unfortunately, this is exactly what"},{"startTime":2169.103,"endTime":2173.473,"body":"happens in large organizations where"},{"startTime":2173.693,"endTime":2178.553,"body":"they're constantly moving people around"},{"startTime":2173.693,"endTime":2178.553,"body":"when plans don't materialize, right?"},{"startTime":2178.793,"endTime":2182.263,"body":"So they'll bring somebody over"},{"startTime":2178.793,"endTime":2182.263,"body":"from another area of the business"},{"startTime":2182.283,"endTime":2184.463,"body":"where they've been successful."},{"startTime":2184.713,"endTime":2189.243,"body":"Doing something over to here because"},{"startTime":2184.713,"endTime":2189.243,"body":"you're needed here to you know,"},{"startTime":2189.263,"endTime":2190.943,"body":"kind of propagate the success."},{"startTime":2190.953,"endTime":2191.253,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2191.573,"endTime":2194.753,"body":"And it doesn't work out that way"},{"startTime":2191.573,"endTime":2194.753,"body":"because the domain is different."},{"startTime":2195.003,"endTime":2198.433,"body":"So in this sort of situation,"},{"startTime":2195.003,"endTime":2198.433,"body":"what is the right thing to do?"},{"startTime":2198.433,"endTime":2202.653,"body":"If you're an individual who is being"},{"startTime":2198.433,"endTime":2202.653,"body":"brought in like that, what should you do?"},{"startTime":2203.023,"endTime":2206.053,"body":"I think you need to look at"},{"startTime":2203.023,"endTime":2206.053,"body":"yourself in the mirror and say, am"},{"startTime":2206.053,"endTime":2208.553,"body":"I aware of what I'm getting into?"},{"startTime":2208.943,"endTime":2209.253,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2209.303,"endTime":2213.853,"body":"Be bold enough to say that's a great"},{"startTime":2209.303,"endTime":2213.853,"body":"opportunity, but no, I'm fine here."},{"startTime":2214.103,"endTime":2218.173,"body":"Or keep that resume updated because you"},{"startTime":2214.103,"endTime":2218.173,"body":"will not be successful, unfortunately."},{"startTime":2218.213,"endTime":2219.643,"body":"And you'll just be another number."},{"startTime":2219.943,"endTime":2223.713,"body":"Like when you create a plan and"},{"startTime":2219.943,"endTime":2223.713,"body":"expectation is laid down, like it"},{"startTime":2223.713,"endTime":2225.543,"body":"was chipped in the stone, right?"},{"startTime":2225.793,"endTime":2229.363,"body":"And like when that expectation meets"},{"startTime":2225.793,"endTime":2229.363,"body":"the market reality, like that stone"},{"startTime":2229.363,"endTime":2231.973,"body":"just dissolves and everyone was like,"},{"startTime":2229.363,"endTime":2231.973,"body":"but it was chipped in the stone."},{"startTime":2231.973,"endTime":2232.983,"body":"It must've been permanent."},{"startTime":2233.293,"endTime":2234.223,"body":"And then it dissolves."},{"startTime":2234.223,"endTime":2237.773,"body":"And then we just can't like, this is"},{"startTime":2234.223,"endTime":2237.773,"body":"the cognitive dissonance that like in,"},{"startTime":2237.803,"endTime":2240.253,"body":"in my mind that I've seen before is."},{"startTime":2240.633,"endTime":2243.433,"body":"Everybody feeling that since,"},{"startTime":2240.633,"endTime":2243.433,"body":"since we went through the planning"},{"startTime":2243.433,"endTime":2245.683,"body":"activity, that guarantees success."},{"startTime":2245.993,"endTime":2250.313,"body":"And this is just, it's just the"},{"startTime":2245.993,"endTime":2250.313,"body":"way that these, the people on that"},{"startTime":2250.313,"endTime":2254.393,"body":"side of the business were raised to"},{"startTime":2250.313,"endTime":2254.393,"body":"believe they checked all the boxes."},{"startTime":2254.683,"endTime":2255.773,"body":"They must be successful."},{"startTime":2255.953,"endTime":2258.253,"body":"You know, they never realized"},{"startTime":2255.953,"endTime":2258.253,"body":"that like they built the vessel."},{"startTime":2258.273,"endTime":2259.943,"body":"What is the Deming book?"},{"startTime":2260.143,"endTime":2265.203,"body":"They built the best vacuum tubes in"},{"startTime":2260.143,"endTime":2265.203,"body":"the world that the world has ever seen."},{"startTime":2265.213,"endTime":2265.533,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2265.643,"endTime":2267.733,"body":"You know, and they just happened"},{"startTime":2265.643,"endTime":2267.733,"body":"to deliver them to market."},{"startTime":2268.048,"endTime":2272.598,"body":"In the time that transistors came"},{"startTime":2268.048,"endTime":2272.598,"body":"out, whoops, you know, suddenly"},{"startTime":2272.598,"endTime":2274.148,"body":"nobody needs vacuum tubes."},{"startTime":2274.528,"endTime":2275.758,"body":"I think the same thing about."},{"startTime":2276.008,"endTime":2280.298,"body":"Executives or salespeople, salespeople,"},{"startTime":2276.008,"endTime":2280.298,"body":"we like to fight with salespeople, right?"},{"startTime":2280.518,"endTime":2282.648,"body":"Salespeople that say like, I"},{"startTime":2280.518,"endTime":2282.648,"body":"know what feature to build,"},{"startTime":2282.658,"endTime":2283.798,"body":"build this feature or whatever."},{"startTime":2283.798,"endTime":2285.628,"body":"And then, you know, you build it,"},{"startTime":2283.798,"endTime":2285.628,"body":"you bring it to market and they"},{"startTime":2285.628,"endTime":2287.938,"body":"say, well, you built it wrong or"},{"startTime":2285.628,"endTime":2287.938,"body":"you didn't deliver it fast enough."},{"startTime":2287.938,"endTime":2293.258,"body":"Or, you know, these grapes are sour"},{"startTime":2287.938,"endTime":2293.258,"body":"there are some assumptions here."},{"startTime":2293.508,"endTime":2295.348,"body":"And some, some business risks."},{"startTime":2295.398,"endTime":2297.968,"body":"Gary was successful selling bicycles."},{"startTime":2297.998,"endTime":2298.368,"body":"He was."},{"startTime":2298.478,"endTime":2301.658,"body":"And Gary's now selling cloud services."},{"startTime":2301.698,"endTime":2302.688,"body":"At least that's what he told us."},{"startTime":2302.688,"endTime":2303.818,"body":"That's what he told us, yeah."},{"startTime":2303.998,"endTime":2307.378,"body":"Well, they brought him in because"},{"startTime":2303.998,"endTime":2307.378,"body":"he sold enough bicycles in a quarter"},{"startTime":2307.378,"endTime":2308.748,"body":"to, you know, make his quarter."},{"startTime":2308.748,"endTime":2311.135,"body":"So he's now selling cloud services, right?"},{"startTime":2311.305,"endTime":2312.205,"body":"He doesn't have any."},{"startTime":2312.51,"endTime":2313.51,"body":"background in that."},{"startTime":2313.82,"endTime":2315.17,"body":"But he has credibility."},{"startTime":2315.18,"endTime":2319.89,"body":"He comes in with this perceived"},{"startTime":2315.18,"endTime":2319.89,"body":"credibility that he can succeed because"},{"startTime":2319.89,"endTime":2321.91,"body":"he succeeded somewhere else before."},{"startTime":2322.33,"endTime":2325.54,"body":"So yeah, I mean, look, there's"},{"startTime":2322.33,"endTime":2325.54,"body":"plenty of examples like that."},{"startTime":2325.81,"endTime":2328.48,"body":"Marketing folks are like that"},{"startTime":2325.81,"endTime":2328.48,"body":"as well, because it's very"},{"startTime":2328.48,"endTime":2329.72,"body":"much a domain layer thing."},{"startTime":2329.77,"endTime":2332.93,"body":"If you're not aware of the domain"},{"startTime":2329.77,"endTime":2332.93,"body":"you're in, and what the competitive"},{"startTime":2332.94,"endTime":2335.87,"body":"pressures are in that domain, how"},{"startTime":2332.94,"endTime":2335.87,"body":"are you going to be successful?"},{"startTime":2336.24,"endTime":2336.56,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2336.74,"endTime":2340.1,"body":"so if you're given a choice, just to"},{"startTime":2336.74,"endTime":2340.1,"body":"underscore my previous point, if you're"},{"startTime":2340.1,"endTime":2344.18,"body":"given a choice and you're on the fence"},{"startTime":2340.1,"endTime":2344.18,"body":"about it then don't take that chance"},{"startTime":2344.52,"endTime":2347.95,"body":"But if you're forced into it, they say"},{"startTime":2344.52,"endTime":2347.95,"body":"well, no, we want you over here now."},{"startTime":2348.2,"endTime":2350.08,"body":"You're not given a choice in that, right?"},{"startTime":2350.11,"endTime":2352.93,"body":"What do you do as an individual"},{"startTime":2350.11,"endTime":2352.93,"body":"you're coming in and you're just"},{"startTime":2352.95,"endTime":2356.63,"body":"asked to make these plans You could"},{"startTime":2352.95,"endTime":2356.63,"body":"do a lot worse than trust the people"},{"startTime":2356.63,"endTime":2359.0,"body":"that are there already, right?"},{"startTime":2359.25,"endTime":2362.51,"body":"Enlist them to say what"},{"startTime":2359.25,"endTime":2362.51,"body":"would your worst plan be?"},{"startTime":2362.55,"endTime":2365.85,"body":"What would your best plan be and"},{"startTime":2362.55,"endTime":2365.85,"body":"then go somewhere in between?"},{"startTime":2366.1,"endTime":2366.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2366.44,"endTime":2366.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2367.1,"endTime":2369.59,"body":"I mean, that's the best advice"},{"startTime":2367.1,"endTime":2369.59,"body":"I can provide at this stage."},{"startTime":2369.91,"endTime":2371.74,"body":"Figure out the rationale behind it."},{"startTime":2372.08,"endTime":2375.91,"body":"Try to tackle the issues rather than,"},{"startTime":2372.08,"endTime":2375.91,"body":"you know, just coming in saying,"},{"startTime":2375.91,"endTime":2378.06,"body":"well, I'm going to create a plan."},{"startTime":2378.28,"endTime":2381.12,"body":"You can't do it on your own to begin with,"},{"startTime":2378.28,"endTime":2381.12,"body":"because you're in a different domain."},{"startTime":2381.475,"endTime":2384.195,"body":"So, you're going to have to"},{"startTime":2381.475,"endTime":2384.195,"body":"rely on people that have the"},{"startTime":2384.195,"endTime":2386.835,"body":"main knowledge and expertise."},{"startTime":2387.085,"endTime":2389.705,"body":"That may take time to"},{"startTime":2387.085,"endTime":2389.705,"body":"develop those relationships."},{"startTime":2389.955,"endTime":2392.585,"body":"So every plan is a draft,"},{"startTime":2389.955,"endTime":2392.585,"body":"first of all, right?"},{"startTime":2392.835,"endTime":2398.615,"body":"And the plan Ends in making revisions"},{"startTime":2392.835,"endTime":2398.615,"body":"to the plan, so we'll revisit this plan"},{"startTime":2398.615,"endTime":2402.425,"body":"in three months as opposed to this is"},{"startTime":2398.615,"endTime":2402.425,"body":"the plan because to your point it gets"},{"startTime":2402.425,"endTime":2407.385,"body":"etched in stone the minute you say a date"},{"startTime":2402.425,"endTime":2407.385,"body":"it gets, etched in, stone as expectation"},{"startTime":2407.385,"endTime":2412.155,"body":"of guarantee This is it you said but"},{"startTime":2407.385,"endTime":2412.155,"body":"you said right and you can't unlock"},{"startTime":2412.155,"endTime":2413.405,"body":"that right because you did say that."},{"startTime":2413.585,"endTime":2416.425,"body":"Yeah so yeah, I mean those are"},{"startTime":2413.585,"endTime":2416.425,"body":"things I can offer here, right?"},{"startTime":2416.445,"endTime":2418.665,"body":"Just make a plan to revisit the plan"},{"startTime":2418.715,"endTime":2419.795,"body":"We've had a lot of podcasts."},{"startTime":2420.045,"endTime":2422.205,"body":"Dealing with this, like"},{"startTime":2420.045,"endTime":2422.205,"body":"where you're going now?"},{"startTime":2422.255,"endTime":2422.575,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2422.575,"endTime":2425.245,"body":"One 41 minimal viable product"},{"startTime":2422.575,"endTime":2425.245,"body":"probably can help you too."},{"startTime":2425.245,"endTime":2426.645,"body":"But 72 was Gantt charts."},{"startTime":2426.895,"endTime":2427.625,"body":"85."},{"startTime":2428.455,"endTime":2431.525,"body":"185, what companies do"},{"startTime":2428.455,"endTime":2431.525,"body":"instead of strategy, right?"},{"startTime":2431.575,"endTime":2431.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2431.835,"endTime":2434.515,"body":"Cause these are all ways to"},{"startTime":2431.835,"endTime":2434.515,"body":"recognize, what's going on."},{"startTime":2434.875,"endTime":2440.145,"body":"I wanted to talk very quickly about"},{"startTime":2434.875,"endTime":2440.145,"body":"uncertainty and ambiguity avoidance to"},{"startTime":2440.145,"endTime":2445.815,"body":"point out the, Dutch management researcher"},{"startTime":2440.145,"endTime":2445.815,"body":"Gert Hofstede about the cultural"},{"startTime":2445.815,"endTime":2452.485,"body":"dimensions theory from 1980   the Hofstede"},{"startTime":2445.815,"endTime":2452.485,"body":"cultural dimension theory It's a framework"},{"startTime":2452.495,"endTime":2457.285,"body":"used to understand the difference in"},{"startTime":2452.495,"endTime":2457.285,"body":"culture across countries It has six"},{"startTime":2457.285,"endTime":2462.155,"body":"dimensions including power distance"},{"startTime":2457.285,"endTime":2462.155,"body":"uncertainty avoidance individualism"},{"startTime":2462.155,"endTime":2466.345,"body":"collectivism masculinity femininity"},{"startTime":2462.155,"endTime":2466.345,"body":"in short versus long term orientation"},{"startTime":2466.595,"endTime":2467.775,"body":"I'm showing it on the screen now."},{"startTime":2467.835,"endTime":2473.635,"body":"that's Hofstede's six dimensions of"},{"startTime":2467.835,"endTime":2473.635,"body":"culture it has the additional Indulgent"},{"startTime":2473.655,"endTime":2475.395,"body":"versus restraint that was added."},{"startTime":2475.435,"endTime":2479.155,"body":"I believe after his research But I"},{"startTime":2475.435,"endTime":2479.155,"body":"wanted to to show this because the high"},{"startTime":2479.195,"endTime":2484.015,"body":"uncertainty Avoidance index, the one"},{"startTime":2479.195,"endTime":2484.015,"body":"in the middle that you see there on the"},{"startTime":2484.015,"endTime":2486.835,"body":"screen high uncertainty avoidance index."},{"startTime":2486.835,"endTime":2488.685,"body":"You can ascribe that to cultures."},{"startTime":2488.935,"endTime":2493.315,"body":"I would argue corporate culture it's"},{"startTime":2488.935,"endTime":2493.315,"body":"funny cause when you read his research,"},{"startTime":2493.435,"endTime":2497.075,"body":"the folks with high uncertainty the"},{"startTime":2493.435,"endTime":2497.075,"body":"folks with the avoidance of high"},{"startTime":2497.075,"endTime":2501.255,"body":"uncertainty, so the folks that were not"},{"startTime":2497.075,"endTime":2501.255,"body":"okay with ambiguity he described them"},{"startTime":2501.255,"endTime":2503.785,"body":"as highly emotional in their framework."},{"startTime":2504.035,"endTime":2505.465,"body":"So that was interesting to me."},{"startTime":2505.525,"endTime":2507.265,"body":"I was interested to read the paper."},{"startTime":2507.465,"endTime":2511.455,"body":"I'd be interested to read it and talk"},{"startTime":2507.465,"endTime":2511.455,"body":"more about it, but like being okay"},{"startTime":2511.455,"endTime":2515.105,"body":"with uncertainty, like I just bring"},{"startTime":2511.455,"endTime":2515.105,"body":"this up to show you like there are"},{"startTime":2515.115,"endTime":2520.255,"body":"frameworks out there to analyze and"},{"startTime":2515.115,"endTime":2520.255,"body":"kind of categorize these cultural."},{"startTime":2520.255,"endTime":2524.895,"body":"Just functions of the, I dare say"},{"startTime":2520.255,"endTime":2524.895,"body":"dysfunctions he's just, he's just like"},{"startTime":2524.895,"endTime":2527.675,"body":"this framework, for example, that we found"},{"startTime":2524.895,"endTime":2527.675,"body":"is like, he's just pointing out facts."},{"startTime":2527.715,"endTime":2528.685,"body":"Like it's just a thing."},{"startTime":2528.685,"endTime":2529.455,"body":"It's just what it is."},{"startTime":2529.705,"endTime":2533.425,"body":"It kind of makes sense to me that  people"},{"startTime":2529.705,"endTime":2533.425,"body":"that have a high uncertainty avoidance"},{"startTime":2533.455,"endTime":2538.355,"body":"index are more emotional because"},{"startTime":2533.455,"endTime":2538.355,"body":"they've probably will feel like they're"},{"startTime":2538.355,"endTime":2542.855,"body":"uncomfortable at not being able to"},{"startTime":2538.355,"endTime":2542.855,"body":"defend things that are asked of them."},{"startTime":2542.855,"endTime":2543.145,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2543.165,"endTime":2543.925,"body":"That's yeah."},{"startTime":2544.375,"endTime":2545.155,"body":"I'm a manager."},{"startTime":2545.185,"endTime":2546.175,"body":"That's my identity."},{"startTime":2546.215,"endTime":2550.905,"body":"If you're challenging, Oh, I don't"},{"startTime":2546.215,"endTime":2550.905,"body":"think that these six teams under the one"},{"startTime":2550.905,"endTime":2553.285,"body":"manager is the best organizational design."},{"startTime":2553.485,"endTime":2556.265,"body":"Maybe we should, you know,"},{"startTime":2553.485,"endTime":2556.265,"body":"give teams autonomy to do."},{"startTime":2556.355,"endTime":2557.315,"body":"Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa."},{"startTime":2557.405,"endTime":2561.455,"body":"You're attacking my identity as a manager."},{"startTime":2561.695,"endTime":2563.015,"body":"I think you're the problem."},{"startTime":2563.055,"endTime":2565.075,"body":"So yeah, that's exactly right."},{"startTime":2565.275,"endTime":2566.745,"body":"That's why they're, they're emotional."},{"startTime":2566.825,"endTime":2569.555,"body":"I'd like to talk about some of"},{"startTime":2566.825,"endTime":2569.555,"body":"these other ones at some point, but"},{"startTime":2569.565,"endTime":2572.165,"body":"maybe not on this podcast, because"},{"startTime":2569.565,"endTime":2572.165,"body":"there's some good ones there."},{"startTime":2572.195,"endTime":2573.095,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2573.385,"endTime":2575.745,"body":"Like power distance"},{"startTime":2573.385,"endTime":2575.745,"body":"index, more about that."},{"startTime":2575.995,"endTime":2580.805,"body":"Well, I'll have to find the original"},{"startTime":2575.995,"endTime":2580.805,"body":"paper, 1980 paper on this, and read it,"},{"startTime":2580.825,"endTime":2584.165,"body":"and then read the, it's been picked up"},{"startTime":2580.825,"endTime":2584.165,"body":"several times by different researchers."},{"startTime":2584.385,"endTime":2586.455,"body":"So maybe we'll look at that"},{"startTime":2584.385,"endTime":2586.455,"body":"on a different podcast."},{"startTime":2586.455,"endTime":2590.035,"body":"And, if you actually know about  Hoffstead"},{"startTime":2586.455,"endTime":2590.035,"body":"if you actually know anything about the"},{"startTime":2590.035,"endTime":2594.485,"body":"research, like comment below I would be"},{"startTime":2590.035,"endTime":2594.485,"body":"interested to be schooled on this topic."},{"startTime":2594.85,"endTime":2595.95,"body":"always willing to be schooled."},{"startTime":2596.01,"endTime":2599.32,"body":"But something I don't need to be"},{"startTime":2596.01,"endTime":2599.32,"body":"schooled on is the concept of the"},{"startTime":2599.32,"endTime":2605.42,"body":"meritocracy and the Puritan work"},{"startTime":2599.32,"endTime":2605.42,"body":"ethic mythos in American culture."},{"startTime":2605.43,"endTime":2610.07,"body":"The idea that if you just hustle, if you"},{"startTime":2605.43,"endTime":2610.07,"body":"just work harder, if you grind, if you"},{"startTime":2610.07,"endTime":2614.8,"body":"just grind, if you hustle culture and"},{"startTime":2610.07,"endTime":2614.8,"body":"you will get ahead, the problem is not."},{"startTime":2615.05,"endTime":2619.62,"body":"It's not that these plans don't"},{"startTime":2615.05,"endTime":2619.62,"body":"properly capture the changing in"},{"startTime":2619.62,"endTime":2622.63,"body":"the markets and the ambiguity that"},{"startTime":2619.62,"endTime":2622.63,"body":"we're, it's just you didn't plan"},{"startTime":2622.64,"endTime":2623.81,"body":"enough, you didn't work hard enough."},{"startTime":2623.85,"endTime":2624.25,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2624.26,"endTime":2628.14,"body":"You have more than 24 hours in your"},{"startTime":2624.26,"endTime":2628.14,"body":"day, so you need to be able to work"},{"startTime":2628.14,"endTime":2629.72,"body":"harder, harder, faster, faster."},{"startTime":2630.02,"endTime":2633.42,"body":"throw a rock in any of these glass"},{"startTime":2630.02,"endTime":2633.42,"body":"houses online, and you will hit."},{"startTime":2633.72,"endTime":2636.14,"body":"You will definitely hit one of these"},{"startTime":2633.72,"endTime":2636.14,"body":"people telling you that like, oh,"},{"startTime":2636.16,"endTime":2639.23,"body":"this, you just didn't plan hard enough."},{"startTime":2639.24,"endTime":2643.13,"body":"You didn't spend enough time planning"},{"startTime":2639.24,"endTime":2643.13,"body":"the sad part of this is like the"},{"startTime":2643.38,"endTime":2646.48,"body":"leaders, executives, directors, whatever"},{"startTime":2643.38,"endTime":2646.48,"body":"you want to say in the organizations."},{"startTime":2646.51,"endTime":2649.62,"body":"These, there are tons of people with this."},{"startTime":2649.87,"endTime":2655.65,"body":"If you failed, it's because you didn't"},{"startTime":2649.87,"endTime":2655.65,"body":"plan deep enough or spend enough time"},{"startTime":2655.68,"endTime":2660.73,"body":"or you didn't forecast this thing in"},{"startTime":2655.68,"endTime":2660.73,"body":"the market that we didn't know about."},{"startTime":2660.73,"endTime":2664.17,"body":"You know, you didn't forecast that"},{"startTime":2660.73,"endTime":2664.17,"body":"everyone was going to start stealing mp3s."},{"startTime":2664.19,"endTime":2665.98,"body":", your 8 ball was too fuzzy."},{"startTime":2665.98,"endTime":2667.31,"body":"You didn't polish it enough."},{"startTime":2667.34,"endTime":2670.93,"body":", unfortunately, those that say"},{"startTime":2667.34,"endTime":2670.93,"body":"that probably never had to do"},{"startTime":2670.93,"endTime":2672.41,"body":"this level of planning themselves."},{"startTime":2672.41,"endTime":2675.63,"body":"Or maybe they did and they failed"},{"startTime":2672.41,"endTime":2675.63,"body":"and kind of got promoted to their"},{"startTime":2675.63,"endTime":2677.13,"body":"highest level of incompetency."},{"startTime":2677.13,"endTime":2682.0,"body":"you could spend twice as long as you've"},{"startTime":2677.13,"endTime":2682.0,"body":"spent planning where the plan didn't work."},{"startTime":2682.29,"endTime":2686.16,"body":"And the probability of the"},{"startTime":2682.29,"endTime":2686.16,"body":"plan now suddenly working out."},{"startTime":2686.17,"endTime":2689.55,"body":"That is not any greater, I"},{"startTime":2686.17,"endTime":2689.55,"body":"don't think, right, because you"},{"startTime":2689.55,"endTime":2690.54,"body":"don't know what you don't know."},{"startTime":2690.79,"endTime":2693.4,"body":"I don't have a lot of time or patience"},{"startTime":2690.79,"endTime":2693.4,"body":"to spend on things like this and"},{"startTime":2693.4,"endTime":2697.07,"body":"the nice thing about being advanced"},{"startTime":2693.4,"endTime":2697.07,"body":"in my career, I'll put it that way."},{"startTime":2697.08,"endTime":2697.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2697.58,"endTime":2699.95,"body":"Is I don't have to take this"},{"startTime":2697.58,"endTime":2699.95,"body":"point seriously anymore."},{"startTime":2699.96,"endTime":2700.34,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2700.5,"endTime":2704.31,"body":"Whereas early in my career, I did have"},{"startTime":2700.5,"endTime":2704.31,"body":"to take it seriously because I will look"},{"startTime":2704.31,"endTime":2709.04,"body":"at this, and wonder whether the person"},{"startTime":2704.31,"endTime":2709.04,"body":"I'm dealing with is just a narcissist."},{"startTime":2709.475,"endTime":2712.755,"body":"Or the person I'm dealing with is"},{"startTime":2709.475,"endTime":2712.755,"body":"trying to deflect blame or whether"},{"startTime":2712.755,"endTime":2717.675,"body":"the person is just in over their head"},{"startTime":2712.755,"endTime":2717.675,"body":"and they don't, you know,  they're"},{"startTime":2717.675,"endTime":2718.985,"body":"feeling like not out of control."},{"startTime":2718.985,"endTime":2720.97,"body":"They're feeling like"},{"startTime":2718.985,"endTime":2720.97,"body":"they're out of their depth."},{"startTime":2721.31,"endTime":2724.43,"body":"And they're, you know, they need to take"},{"startTime":2721.31,"endTime":2724.43,"body":"some control back by blaming somebody"},{"startTime":2724.43,"endTime":2725.49,"body":"else, you know, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":2725.74,"endTime":2726.76,"body":"Feeling threatened maybe even."},{"startTime":2726.76,"endTime":2728.56,"body":"Feeling threatened, yeah,"},{"startTime":2726.76,"endTime":2728.56,"body":"that's a good way to put it."},{"startTime":2728.63,"endTime":2732.4,"body":"I mean, like, there's so many,"},{"startTime":2728.63,"endTime":2732.4,"body":"like, when I hear this, you know, or"},{"startTime":2732.65,"endTime":2738.94,"body":"someone is ascribing to hard work and"},{"startTime":2732.65,"endTime":2738.94,"body":"positioning what actually came from luck."},{"startTime":2739.27,"endTime":2744.93,"body":"So it's like, Hey, you know, look at me, I"},{"startTime":2739.27,"endTime":2744.93,"body":"worked hard and I've got all these houses"},{"startTime":2744.93,"endTime":2748.4,"body":"and all this money,  you could have all"},{"startTime":2744.93,"endTime":2748.4,"body":"these houses and money too, if you were"},{"startTime":2748.4,"endTime":2752.75,"body":"just born 30 years ago to rich parents,"},{"startTime":2748.4,"endTime":2752.75,"body":"if you really peel back the layers and"},{"startTime":2752.75,"endTime":2756.11,"body":"you're like, well, what exactly, like"},{"startTime":2752.75,"endTime":2756.11,"body":"the product manager on the podcast, if"},{"startTime":2756.11,"endTime":2760.44,"body":"I really take apart the situation and"},{"startTime":2756.11,"endTime":2760.44,"body":"start putting the variables of like, we"},{"startTime":2760.44,"endTime":2762.91,"body":"want to, we like, this is not an art."},{"startTime":2763.16,"endTime":2766.65,"body":"We want to make this into a science"},{"startTime":2763.16,"endTime":2766.65,"body":"and I really start peeling away"},{"startTime":2766.65,"endTime":2770.92,"body":"your success into science and I have"},{"startTime":2766.65,"endTime":2770.92,"body":"full This is where this is where"},{"startTime":2770.92,"endTime":2772.3,"body":"it starts becoming fantasy, right?"},{"startTime":2772.71,"endTime":2778.171,"body":"I have full  inspection of the truth"},{"startTime":2772.71,"endTime":2778.171,"body":"100 facts, And I can start putting these"},{"startTime":2778.171,"endTime":2782.425,"body":"things of like well, you know, you were"},{"startTime":2778.171,"endTime":2782.425,"body":"in this market before everyone else You"},{"startTime":2782.425,"endTime":2783.715,"body":"really didn't know what you were doing."},{"startTime":2783.725,"endTime":2787.085,"body":"you know, it happened on chance,"},{"startTime":2783.725,"endTime":2787.085,"body":"you know, how many times does that"},{"startTime":2787.085,"endTime":2790.415,"body":"happen where somebody plays golf with"},{"startTime":2787.085,"endTime":2790.415,"body":"somebody and  if you called in sick or"},{"startTime":2790.415,"endTime":2791.745,"body":"had a hangover that day or whatever."},{"startTime":2791.995,"endTime":2794.855,"body":"You wouldn't have played the"},{"startTime":2791.995,"endTime":2794.855,"body":"golf game or, you know, luck,"},{"startTime":2794.865,"endTime":2795.855,"body":"there's some luck involved."},{"startTime":2796.165,"endTime":2799.285,"body":"There's definitely that element,"},{"startTime":2796.165,"endTime":2799.285,"body":"and it's not insignificant."},{"startTime":2799.535,"endTime":2800.595,"body":"Overall, I'd say."},{"startTime":2800.895,"endTime":2804.155,"body":"I'm not saying that's the majority"},{"startTime":2800.895,"endTime":2804.155,"body":"of it, but overall, that is a key"},{"startTime":2804.155,"endTime":2808.345,"body":"component, one of the key components"},{"startTime":2804.155,"endTime":2808.345,"body":"that gets overlooked, because nobody"},{"startTime":2808.655,"endTime":2810.705,"body":"wants to give you credit for being lucky."},{"startTime":2810.755,"endTime":2815.415,"body":"On the other side of that, people will"},{"startTime":2810.755,"endTime":2815.415,"body":"move mountains, they'll move heaven and"},{"startTime":2815.425,"endTime":2821.645,"body":"earth to hide luck from the equation of"},{"startTime":2815.425,"endTime":2821.645,"body":"success and, all these people online that"},{"startTime":2821.645,"endTime":2825.205,"body":"talk like this, that are trying to sell"},{"startTime":2821.645,"endTime":2825.205,"body":"you something they're not gonna tell you"},{"startTime":2825.205,"endTime":2829.995,"body":"that they were in the right place at the"},{"startTime":2825.205,"endTime":2829.995,"body":"right time Or how they just like choked"},{"startTime":2829.995,"endTime":2833.535,"body":"it down and dealt with a narcissist"},{"startTime":2829.995,"endTime":2833.535,"body":"for long enough to stay in one place"},{"startTime":2833.555,"endTime":2835.875,"body":"That's the nice thing about listening"},{"startTime":2833.555,"endTime":2835.875,"body":"to the arguing agile podcast is"},{"startTime":2835.875,"endTime":2840.475,"body":"like all the nasty little things and"},{"startTime":2835.875,"endTime":2840.475,"body":"whatever like we're not glossing over No"},{"startTime":2840.725,"endTime":2843.885,"body":"And that the nastiest of"},{"startTime":2840.725,"endTime":2843.885,"body":"the nasty  is narcissists."},{"startTime":2844.195,"endTime":2845.735,"body":"Narcissists, my goodness."},{"startTime":2846.035,"endTime":2849.895,"body":"Now remember, this is the tyranny of"},{"startTime":2846.035,"endTime":2849.895,"body":"plans  and again, I can talk about"},{"startTime":2849.895,"endTime":2855.425,"body":"this as if it is a fact because there"},{"startTime":2849.895,"endTime":2855.425,"body":"are plenty of studies that say the"},{"startTime":2855.475,"endTime":2859.265,"body":"people with the psychological traits"},{"startTime":2855.475,"endTime":2859.265,"body":"to make it to the top in corporate"},{"startTime":2859.265,"endTime":2863.655,"body":"America just happened to align with"},{"startTime":2859.265,"endTime":2863.655,"body":"all of the traits of narcissists."},{"startTime":2863.995,"endTime":2865.355,"body":"Let's just pick a number out of the air."},{"startTime":2865.355,"endTime":2867.575,"body":"Let's say 10 percent of the"},{"startTime":2865.355,"endTime":2867.575,"body":"corporate America workforce."},{"startTime":2867.855,"endTime":2870.505,"body":"I happen to think that that"},{"startTime":2867.855,"endTime":2870.505,"body":"number is bigger than that."},{"startTime":2870.695,"endTime":2873.655,"body":"But anyway, it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":2870.695,"endTime":2873.655,"body":"That's a lot of people overall in"},{"startTime":2873.655,"endTime":2878.345,"body":"terms of just sheer numbers I'd say"},{"startTime":2873.655,"endTime":2878.345,"body":"also those people happened, they"},{"startTime":2878.345,"endTime":2882.675,"body":"won't say they were lucky, but they"},{"startTime":2878.345,"endTime":2882.675,"body":"happened to align with like people."},{"startTime":2882.705,"endTime":2886.575,"body":"So if you think about a leader and"},{"startTime":2882.705,"endTime":2886.575,"body":"you can definitely say, Oh yeah, I"},{"startTime":2886.575,"endTime":2889.915,"body":"can pigeonhole that person as being"},{"startTime":2886.575,"endTime":2889.915,"body":"a narcissist, they're successful."},{"startTime":2890.415,"endTime":2894.405,"body":"Chances are they came up"},{"startTime":2890.415,"endTime":2894.405,"body":"working for a narcissist."},{"startTime":2894.655,"endTime":2896.545,"body":"If you disagree, great, let us know."},{"startTime":2896.575,"endTime":2898.275,"body":"But that's what I believe, right?"},{"startTime":2898.275,"endTime":2901.255,"body":"Because a narcissist"},{"startTime":2898.275,"endTime":2901.255,"body":"will reward a narcissist."},{"startTime":2901.255,"endTime":2901.395,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":2901.645,"endTime":2904.405,"body":"that's what I firmly believe"},{"startTime":2901.645,"endTime":2904.405,"body":"that they feel, they feel"},{"startTime":2904.405,"endTime":2905.675,"body":"like that is the way to work."},{"startTime":2905.685,"endTime":2906.695,"body":"That is how you work."},{"startTime":2906.875,"endTime":2907.965,"body":"That's what they recognize."},{"startTime":2908.155,"endTime":2912.155,"body":"Everything else gets, you know, Oh,"},{"startTime":2908.155,"endTime":2912.155,"body":"well, all of that stuff, psychological"},{"startTime":2912.155,"endTime":2913.895,"body":"safety, all that touchy feely stuff."},{"startTime":2913.945,"endTime":2914.815,"body":"Nah, I don't care about that."},{"startTime":2915.065,"endTime":2915.955,"body":"People are here to work."},{"startTime":2916.225,"endTime":2923.415,"body":"The blanket statement to make here"},{"startTime":2916.225,"endTime":2923.415,"body":"is a narcissist has an inflated sense"},{"startTime":2923.415,"endTime":2928.345,"body":"of control and influence over the"},{"startTime":2923.415,"endTime":2928.345,"body":"environment and they will seek to push"},{"startTime":2928.345,"endTime":2931.875,"body":"the organization in this direction"},{"startTime":2928.345,"endTime":2931.875,"body":"towards the tyranny of plans and planning"},{"startTime":2932.345,"endTime":2936.825,"body":"and away from this distributed control"},{"startTime":2932.345,"endTime":2936.825,"body":"that we know works, even the military"},{"startTime":2936.825,"endTime":2939.105,"body":"uses this kind of decision matrix."},{"startTime":2939.105,"endTime":2941.385,"body":"So we know it works, but they will."},{"startTime":2941.83,"endTime":2945.31,"body":"When the decision is successful,"},{"startTime":2941.83,"endTime":2945.31,"body":"they will claim the credit for it."},{"startTime":2945.75,"endTime":2949.99,"body":"When it's not, then they"},{"startTime":2945.75,"endTime":2949.99,"body":"will push the blame down."},{"startTime":2950.31,"endTime":2952.0,"body":"But you don't get to do"},{"startTime":2950.31,"endTime":2952.0,"body":"one without the other."},{"startTime":2952.25,"endTime":2953.86,"body":"It's hard to separate those two out."},{"startTime":2953.94,"endTime":2956.9,"body":"And I also think that it's the"},{"startTime":2953.94,"endTime":2956.9,"body":"kind of thing that feeds on itself."},{"startTime":2956.9,"endTime":2961.255,"body":"if they do this and they are,"},{"startTime":2956.9,"endTime":2961.255,"body":"Successful They will continue to"},{"startTime":2961.255,"endTime":2965.725,"body":"do more of it, So they'll continue"},{"startTime":2961.255,"endTime":2965.725,"body":"to feed on that way of working."},{"startTime":2965.975,"endTime":2970.585,"body":"And they will foster those kinds of"},{"startTime":2965.975,"endTime":2970.585,"body":"traits in people that work for them"},{"startTime":2970.975,"endTime":2972.805,"body":"because they want to be successful too."},{"startTime":2973.055,"endTime":2976.725,"body":"Have you ever run into one of these"},{"startTime":2973.055,"endTime":2976.725,"body":"people in a program as an enterprise agile"},{"startTime":2976.725,"endTime":2983.715,"body":"coach  and if you have, What strategies"},{"startTime":2976.725,"endTime":2983.715,"body":"would you suggest that I employ should"},{"startTime":2983.715,"endTime":2987.155,"body":"I run into somebody like this as like"},{"startTime":2983.715,"endTime":2987.155,"body":"a product manager in the organization?"},{"startTime":2987.435,"endTime":2989.895,"body":"I have run into them several actually."},{"startTime":2990.155,"endTime":2993.245,"body":"And the second part of your"},{"startTime":2990.155,"endTime":2993.245,"body":"question is harder to answer"},{"startTime":2993.245,"endTime":2995.255,"body":"because it's situational, right?"},{"startTime":2995.585,"endTime":2997.105,"body":"But here's what I will say."},{"startTime":2997.355,"endTime":3001.865,"body":"If you're coming in as a consultant,"},{"startTime":2997.355,"endTime":3001.865,"body":"you're not beholden to them, right?"},{"startTime":3002.015,"endTime":3004.035,"body":"So you should definitely."},{"startTime":3004.285,"endTime":3009.035,"body":"Do it in the right way, but you should"},{"startTime":3004.285,"endTime":3009.035,"body":"definitely challenge what they're pushing,"},{"startTime":3009.285,"endTime":3013.825,"body":"but challenge it in a way where you're"},{"startTime":3009.285,"endTime":3013.825,"body":"not challenging the person, right?"},{"startTime":3014.075,"endTime":3016.175,"body":"Always tackle the problem, not the person."},{"startTime":3016.365,"endTime":3019.235,"body":"So I would go in and say,"},{"startTime":3016.365,"endTime":3019.235,"body":"well, I see this as a problem."},{"startTime":3019.235,"endTime":3020.725,"body":"Not I see you as a problem."},{"startTime":3021.015,"endTime":3022.515,"body":"I see this as a problem."},{"startTime":3022.705,"endTime":3025.155,"body":"We're planning way too far in advance."},{"startTime":3025.165,"endTime":3026.235,"body":"So why don't we do this?"},{"startTime":3026.275,"endTime":3027.025,"body":"Let's try."},{"startTime":3027.43,"endTime":3030.29,"body":"Planning a little bit of"},{"startTime":3027.43,"endTime":3030.29,"body":"a shortened time horizon."},{"startTime":3030.33,"endTime":3034.09,"body":"But what we'll do is I know, you know,"},{"startTime":3030.33,"endTime":3034.09,"body":"you want to see an 18 month plan."},{"startTime":3034.49,"endTime":3039.38,"body":"How about we do a six month plan and"},{"startTime":3034.49,"endTime":3039.38,"body":"before those six months are up, we'll"},{"startTime":3039.38,"endTime":3043.11,"body":"come back and reevaluate this plan"},{"startTime":3039.38,"endTime":3043.11,"body":"and adjust it for another six months."},{"startTime":3043.535,"endTime":3046.365,"body":"Going forward because it's going to"},{"startTime":3043.535,"endTime":3046.365,"body":"allow us to pivot which is where I"},{"startTime":3046.365,"endTime":3051.645,"body":"want the organization to go so yeah,"},{"startTime":3046.365,"endTime":3051.645,"body":"definitely you can do some things at"},{"startTime":3051.645,"endTime":3054.095,"body":"that level without alienating the person."},{"startTime":3054.135,"endTime":3057.435,"body":"Oh boy as a narcissist I like I like"},{"startTime":3054.135,"endTime":3057.435,"body":"the idea like where you're going"},{"startTime":3057.435,"endTime":3061.115,"body":"with is is a whole nother podcast"},{"startTime":3057.435,"endTime":3061.115,"body":"And I already have the title."},{"startTime":3061.115,"endTime":3064.565,"body":"It's playing with fire Dealing with"},{"startTime":3061.115,"endTime":3064.565,"body":"narcissists because like  what you just"},{"startTime":3064.565,"endTime":3069.295,"body":"suggested was find out, find out a way"},{"startTime":3064.565,"endTime":3069.295,"body":"where you can make the narcissist your"},{"startTime":3069.365,"endTime":3072.245,"body":"ally on this one particular issue."},{"startTime":3072.495,"endTime":3077.025,"body":"And now you're basically using the"},{"startTime":3072.495,"endTime":3077.025,"body":"power of evil for the purpose of good."},{"startTime":3077.275,"endTime":3079.725,"body":"you're, you're building trust"},{"startTime":3077.275,"endTime":3079.725,"body":"with that person, right?"},{"startTime":3080.155,"endTime":3080.975,"body":"Theoretically, yeah."},{"startTime":3081.225,"endTime":3085.095,"body":"I'm with you but wow, like"},{"startTime":3081.225,"endTime":3085.095,"body":"you do that while keeping that"},{"startTime":3085.095,"endTime":3086.325,"body":"resume updated at the same time."},{"startTime":3086.335,"endTime":3088.835,"body":"For sure, if you're a consultant,"},{"startTime":3086.335,"endTime":3088.835,"body":"you're always doing that anyway,"},{"startTime":3088.835,"endTime":3089.805,"body":"but yeah, I agree with you."},{"startTime":3089.805,"endTime":3090.775,"body":"Keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":3090.935,"endTime":3093.055,"body":"If you're an employee"},{"startTime":3090.935,"endTime":3093.055,"body":"that's in that situation."},{"startTime":3093.305,"endTime":3096.685,"body":"Definitely try some of these things,"},{"startTime":3093.305,"endTime":3096.685,"body":"but you know, at the same time, yeah,"},{"startTime":3096.745,"endTime":3097.885,"body":"keep that resume updated, folks."},{"startTime":3097.885,"endTime":3100.635,"body":"Well, I mean, we went all around"},{"startTime":3097.885,"endTime":3100.635,"body":"the world on this podcast."},{"startTime":3100.635,"endTime":3101.245,"body":"We sure did."},{"startTime":3101.245,"endTime":3104.185,"body":"It's been a long time since"},{"startTime":3101.245,"endTime":3104.185,"body":"we did an hour long podcast."},{"startTime":3104.275,"endTime":3108.495,"body":"We have one that's very close to this"},{"startTime":3104.275,"endTime":3108.495,"body":"arguing agile 184 the illusion of control"},{"startTime":3108.745,"endTime":3114.404,"body":"Which is a like a quick 33 minutes"},{"startTime":3108.745,"endTime":3114.404,"body":"So, you know 20 20 to 20 minutes on 1."},{"startTime":3114.405,"endTime":3117.635,"body":"5 speed or whatever, you know"},{"startTime":3114.405,"endTime":3117.635,"body":"15 18 minutes or whatever"},{"startTime":3117.885,"endTime":3119.335,"body":"that one's worth listening to."},{"startTime":3119.705,"endTime":3124.015,"body":"and of course the Taylorism, I mean,"},{"startTime":3119.705,"endTime":3124.015,"body":"a lot of what we talked about today,"},{"startTime":3124.015,"endTime":3127.855,"body":"it's the specter of Taylorism other"},{"startTime":3124.015,"endTime":3127.855,"body":"than the personal stuff of like people"},{"startTime":3127.855,"endTime":3130.049,"body":"were just raised in chaotic households."},{"startTime":3130.299,"endTime":3131.639,"body":"And now they've got this thing."},{"startTime":3131.639,"endTime":3133.909,"body":"They just can't get over you personally."},{"startTime":3133.959,"endTime":3137.409,"body":"That's the one that we talked about"},{"startTime":3133.959,"endTime":3137.409,"body":"today that I am I would struggle"},{"startTime":3137.409,"endTime":3142.559,"body":"with because I just don't have any"},{"startTime":3137.409,"endTime":3142.559,"body":"good suggestions Other than like"},{"startTime":3142.599,"endTime":3143.679,"body":"just don't work for those people."},{"startTime":3143.979,"endTime":3147.719,"body":"That's not great You know, but other"},{"startTime":3143.979,"endTime":3147.719,"body":"than that one  you can steer the ship."},{"startTime":3148.049,"endTime":3149.169,"body":"You can make little changes."},{"startTime":3149.179,"endTime":3149.449,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3149.539,"endTime":3153.009,"body":"Just like, your suggestion for dealing"},{"startTime":3149.539,"endTime":3153.009,"body":"with narcissists, like, meet them where"},{"startTime":3153.009,"endTime":3158.049,"body":"they are, and then try to agree with"},{"startTime":3153.009,"endTime":3158.049,"body":"them to change one very small thing."},{"startTime":3158.299,"endTime":3162.034,"body":"And then from that one small thing,"},{"startTime":3158.299,"endTime":3162.034,"body":"maybe, You know, you can expand."},{"startTime":3162.284,"endTime":3163.574,"body":"I think that's a good way to do it."},{"startTime":3163.604,"endTime":3168.534,"body":"people that have kind of grown up with it"},{"startTime":3163.604,"endTime":3168.534,"body":"like that, you know, it is harder, right?"},{"startTime":3168.534,"endTime":3171.954,"body":"Because they will not instinctively"},{"startTime":3168.534,"endTime":3171.954,"body":"give you that trust that you need."},{"startTime":3172.364,"endTime":3175.934,"body":"But, one of the things you could"},{"startTime":3172.364,"endTime":3175.934,"body":"pivot to is to say this environment"},{"startTime":3175.934,"endTime":3177.324,"body":"that you're in now is safe."},{"startTime":3177.384,"endTime":3179.004,"body":"It's okay to fail here, right?"},{"startTime":3179.044,"endTime":3179.814,"body":"We're not going to fail."},{"startTime":3180.254,"endTime":3182.264,"body":"But here's what I need you to do."},{"startTime":3182.294,"endTime":3183.534,"body":"Come on a journey with me."},{"startTime":3183.694,"endTime":3185.474,"body":"If we fail, that's fine."},{"startTime":3185.524,"endTime":3186.904,"body":"I'll own that, right?"},{"startTime":3187.184,"endTime":3190.974,"body":"So they can feel a little bit"},{"startTime":3187.184,"endTime":3190.974,"body":"safer coming out toward you, right?"},{"startTime":3191.194,"endTime":3192.514,"body":"That's what you need to do with that."},{"startTime":3192.544,"endTime":3193.884,"body":"It's gonna take longer."},{"startTime":3194.364,"endTime":3198.004,"body":"Cause that person is really,"},{"startTime":3194.364,"endTime":3198.004,"body":"that hurt is deep with them."},{"startTime":3198.014,"endTime":3199.484,"body":"So yeah, it's gonna take time."},{"startTime":3199.754,"endTime":3200.134,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3200.134,"endTime":3201.864,"body":"So plans are worthless."},{"startTime":3201.894,"endTime":3202.774,"body":"Planning is everything."},{"startTime":3202.774,"endTime":3204.584,"body":"I think it was Eisenhower that said that."},{"startTime":3204.585,"endTime":3205.064,"body":"Yeah, it was Eisenhower."},{"startTime":3205.064,"endTime":3206.114,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3206.584,"endTime":3209.014,"body":"But yeah, definitely get into"},{"startTime":3206.584,"endTime":3209.014,"body":"planning, but do just enough."},{"startTime":3209.264,"endTime":3210.884,"body":"Just in time, just in time planning."},{"startTime":3211.134,"endTime":3213.554,"body":"Also, I feel  the modern"},{"startTime":3211.134,"endTime":3213.554,"body":"form product management."},{"startTime":3213.555,"endTime":3214.824,"body":"That's the whole reason it exists."},{"startTime":3214.824,"endTime":3218.034,"body":"It exists to knock down"},{"startTime":3214.824,"endTime":3218.034,"body":"the Marty Kagan for risks."},{"startTime":3218.314,"endTime":3220.424,"body":"And you know, like business viability."},{"startTime":3220.674,"endTime":3221.354,"body":"is one of them."},{"startTime":3221.374,"endTime":3223.864,"body":"You know, is this something"},{"startTime":3221.374,"endTime":3223.864,"body":"that, that our business can do?"},{"startTime":3224.284,"endTime":3227.484,"body":"That's, that customers will use"},{"startTime":3224.284,"endTime":3227.484,"body":"and, you know, all the rest of the"},{"startTime":3227.514,"endTime":3229.214,"body":"categories, can we technically do it?"},{"startTime":3229.384,"endTime":3231.814,"body":"You know, all the categories,"},{"startTime":3229.384,"endTime":3231.814,"body":"they, they exist for this reason."},{"startTime":3232.244,"endTime":3237.084,"body":"You want to go to the next milestone and"},{"startTime":3232.244,"endTime":3237.084,"body":"no further than that, because the cost."},{"startTime":3237.334,"endTime":3239.554,"body":"Of going beyond that is just astronomical."},{"startTime":3239.854,"endTime":3243.514,"body":"Oh, we want to land somebody on the"},{"startTime":3239.854,"endTime":3243.514,"body":"surface of Saturn, , okay, well,"},{"startTime":3243.914,"endTime":3247.214,"body":"let's tear apart the assumptions"},{"startTime":3243.914,"endTime":3247.214,"body":"in this idea and talk about it."},{"startTime":3247.444,"endTime":3250.794,"body":"There's so many assumptions built in"},{"startTime":3247.444,"endTime":3250.794,"body":"that plan That need to be knocked down."},{"startTime":3250.794,"endTime":3254.114,"body":"Like I guess you could build a plan"},{"startTime":3250.794,"endTime":3254.114,"body":"that way Where it's like here's all the"},{"startTime":3254.114,"endTime":3258.224,"body":"assumptions that we have We're going to"},{"startTime":3254.114,"endTime":3258.224,"body":"build a knock down the assumptions plan"},{"startTime":3258.334,"endTime":3262.334,"body":"but  modern software development is not"},{"startTime":3258.334,"endTime":3262.334,"body":"done this way in terms of like Assumptions"},{"startTime":3262.554,"endTime":3267.244,"body":"that roll up to actual features that roll"},{"startTime":3262.554,"endTime":3267.244,"body":"up to actual, you know, business goals."},{"startTime":3267.304,"endTime":3268.064,"body":"That would be cool though."},{"startTime":3268.094,"endTime":3271.954,"body":"It would be cool if we had a system"},{"startTime":3268.094,"endTime":3271.954,"body":"that luckily, luckily we don't."},{"startTime":3272.204,"endTime":3275.334,"body":"Sorry, I was going to say luckily"},{"startTime":3272.204,"endTime":3275.334,"body":"Alex is listening and he's ready"},{"startTime":3275.334,"endTime":3277.104,"body":"to, he's ready to build that in."},{"startTime":3277.354,"endTime":3280.794,"body":"But anyway, if you like this podcast,"},{"startTime":3277.354,"endTime":3280.794,"body":"it was not brought to you by Jira..."},{"startTime":3282.424,"endTime":3285.414,"body":"Just like none of our other programs,"},{"startTime":3282.424,"endTime":3285.414,"body":"just like none of our other podcasts."},{"startTime":3285.664,"endTime":3289.754,"body":"Like and subscribe down below, please"},{"startTime":3285.664,"endTime":3289.754,"body":"and if you like this podcast, please"},{"startTime":3289.754,"endTime":3291.934,"body":"share it with a friend or an enemy."},{"startTime":3292.184,"endTime":3294.504,"body":"Share it with a friend or"},{"startTime":3292.184,"endTime":3294.504,"body":"10 enemies or a sea anemone."},{"startTime":3294.554,"endTime":3295.834,"body":"Some of those will become your friends."},{"startTime":3296.054,"endTime":3296.284,"body":"Yeah."}]}