{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":14.377,"body":"Thanks for sticking with us on"},{"startTime":11.877,"endTime":14.377,"body":"this journey to episode 200."},{"startTime":14.377,"endTime":15.887,"body":"And episode twenty four."},{"startTime":15.987,"endTime":17.067,"body":"I was looking for that one, Om."},{"startTime":17.067,"endTime":18.267,"body":"Episode twenty four."},{"startTime":18.567,"endTime":21.917,"body":"We did career profile of"},{"startTime":18.567,"endTime":21.917,"body":"enterprise as a coach on Patel."},{"startTime":21.927,"endTime":27.717,"body":"And it went so well, we didn't do it"},{"startTime":21.927,"endTime":27.717,"body":"again for 180 episodes, 180 on, yeah."},{"startTime":27.717,"endTime":29.017,"body":"Let's see how it's changed."},{"startTime":29.067,"endTime":29.667,"body":"My goodness."},{"startTime":29.667,"endTime":32.207,"body":"So I like, we did that one and"},{"startTime":29.667,"endTime":32.207,"body":"I'm not sure when this episode"},{"startTime":32.207,"endTime":37.967,"body":"will go up, but it, February 2025"},{"startTime":32.207,"endTime":37.967,"body":"will be 20 years in tech for me."},{"startTime":38.217,"endTime":43.797,"body":"20 years in various software development"},{"startTime":38.217,"endTime":43.797,"body":"roles, program manager, people manager,"},{"startTime":44.097,"endTime":47.267,"body":"product management like all the titles."},{"startTime":47.297,"endTime":50.927,"body":"And I wanted to have a podcast just"},{"startTime":47.297,"endTime":50.927,"body":"to kind of have a retrospective with"},{"startTime":50.927,"endTime":54.917,"body":"you to kind of talk through all the"},{"startTime":50.927,"endTime":54.917,"body":"different things that I've learned and"},{"startTime":54.917,"endTime":57.737,"body":"wisdom that I've come into 20 years on."},{"startTime":57.987,"endTime":58.467,"body":"Let's see."},{"startTime":58.717,"endTime":59.767,"body":"This should be an interesting one."},{"startTime":59.827,"endTime":63.708,"body":"So the first thing that everybody"},{"startTime":59.827,"endTime":63.708,"body":"would be interested in like the little"},{"startTime":63.708,"endTime":67.628,"body":"hanging fruit would be, let's talk"},{"startTime":63.708,"endTime":67.628,"body":"about how to recession proof yourself."},{"startTime":67.628,"endTime":68.607,"body":"Cause 20 years in tech."},{"startTime":68.857,"endTime":71.877,"body":"Avoiding all the layoffs and"},{"startTime":68.857,"endTime":71.877,"body":"dodging that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":72.157,"endTime":75.417,"body":"That takes some kind of skill, I would"},{"startTime":72.157,"endTime":75.417,"body":"think, and luck at the same time."},{"startTime":75.417,"endTime":76.677,"body":"I'm not going to discount that."},{"startTime":76.927,"endTime":80.937,"body":"So let's, let's talk about like"},{"startTime":76.927,"endTime":80.937,"body":"straight off the bat, my background"},{"startTime":80.977,"endTime":85.427,"body":"is, are the three double digit"},{"startTime":80.977,"endTime":85.427,"body":"decline backgrounds in the job role."},{"startTime":85.667,"endTime":89.797,"body":"in the LinkedIn survey of job markets"},{"startTime":85.667,"endTime":89.797,"body":"right now, is that quality assurance."},{"startTime":90.107,"endTime":94.147,"body":"Consulting and product management"},{"startTime":90.107,"endTime":94.147,"body":"at the triple threat of double"},{"startTime":94.147,"endTime":95.697,"body":"digit decline was on that list."},{"startTime":95.707,"endTime":98.217,"body":"So we'll see, the other one was like"},{"startTime":95.707,"endTime":98.217,"body":"agile coaches or something like that."},{"startTime":98.227,"endTime":98.797,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":98.797,"endTime":102.627,"body":"So the, the recession proving yourself"},{"startTime":98.797,"endTime":102.627,"body":"like the, the, like I have this thing"},{"startTime":102.627,"endTime":105.777,"body":"that I've been saying the last couple"},{"startTime":102.627,"endTime":105.777,"body":"of networking events I've gone to."},{"startTime":106.027,"endTime":110.197,"body":"I'm going to say it here, my hot take,"},{"startTime":106.027,"endTime":110.197,"body":"get your, get your response to it."},{"startTime":110.577,"endTime":112.317,"body":"Like unfiltered, because"},{"startTime":110.577,"endTime":112.317,"body":"it's not on our list."},{"startTime":112.317,"endTime":115.747,"body":"At this point in my career, 20 years"},{"startTime":112.317,"endTime":115.747,"body":"in, I don't care about job title."},{"startTime":115.997,"endTime":118.877,"body":"I don't care if you're an executive,"},{"startTime":115.997,"endTime":118.877,"body":"I don't care about anything else."},{"startTime":119.107,"endTime":122.557,"body":"I care if you talk to customers on a"},{"startTime":119.107,"endTime":122.557,"body":"regular basis, or you don't, those are"},{"startTime":122.557,"endTime":124.137,"body":"the two dividing lines in the business"},{"startTime":124.267,"endTime":128.237,"body":"."},{"startTime":124.267,"endTime":128.237,"body":"And all the people that talk to customers,"},{"startTime":128.237,"endTime":131.387,"body":"recessions and all the downsizing and"},{"startTime":128.237,"endTime":131.387,"body":"whatnot, and all the people that don't"},{"startTime":131.397,"endTime":132.747,"body":"talk to customers on a regular basis."},{"startTime":133.197,"endTime":136.697,"body":"I worry about those people, and"},{"startTime":133.197,"endTime":136.697,"body":"I will advise people, especially"},{"startTime":136.747,"endTime":140.077,"body":"like in QA and whatnot, you need"},{"startTime":136.747,"endTime":140.077,"body":"to get in front of the customers."},{"startTime":140.377,"endTime":140.947,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":140.997,"endTime":143.477,"body":"I agree with you first of all"},{"startTime":140.997,"endTime":143.477,"body":"that it's pretty much binary."},{"startTime":143.567,"endTime":144.827,"body":"You either talk to customers or you don't."},{"startTime":144.857,"endTime":146.157,"body":"You don't kind of sort of talk to them."},{"startTime":146.257,"endTime":146.407,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":146.437,"endTime":147.247,"body":"So that, that's true."},{"startTime":147.587,"endTime":150.727,"body":"But people that talk to customers,"},{"startTime":147.587,"endTime":150.727,"body":"you're just saying that they seem to"},{"startTime":150.967,"endTime":152.587,"body":"thrive right through the bad times."},{"startTime":152.837,"endTime":154.197,"body":"There's a reason for that, I think."},{"startTime":154.267,"endTime":157.347,"body":"And that is because they've"},{"startTime":154.267,"endTime":157.347,"body":"lifted a day in their shoes."},{"startTime":157.397,"endTime":161.487,"body":"They understand, not just"},{"startTime":157.397,"endTime":161.487,"body":"superficially yeah, I'm hearing"},{"startTime":161.487,"endTime":162.677,"body":"you, not like that, right?"},{"startTime":162.697,"endTime":165.757,"body":"They actually understand and"},{"startTime":162.697,"endTime":165.757,"body":"empathize with customers."},{"startTime":166.137,"endTime":169.857,"body":"And if you can do that, not"},{"startTime":166.137,"endTime":169.857,"body":"necessarily saying that you kind of"},{"startTime":170.077,"endTime":171.897,"body":"do that as a forced thing, right?"},{"startTime":171.937,"endTime":176.437,"body":"It's gotta come from within that you"},{"startTime":171.937,"endTime":176.437,"body":"care about solving their problems, right?"},{"startTime":176.517,"endTime":178.737,"body":"Then it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":176.517,"endTime":178.737,"body":"what industry you're in."},{"startTime":178.807,"endTime":181.697,"body":"Honestly, I tell other product"},{"startTime":178.807,"endTime":181.697,"body":"managers that, it's tough to"},{"startTime":181.697,"endTime":183.137,"body":"communicate by just saying it."},{"startTime":183.387,"endTime":184.227,"body":"You kind of have to live it."},{"startTime":184.227,"endTime":189.217,"body":"And I tell them the customer's experience"},{"startTime":184.227,"endTime":189.217,"body":"with customer service reps or salespeople"},{"startTime":189.217,"endTime":190.407,"body":"that visit their site and whatnot."},{"startTime":190.407,"endTime":193.737,"body":"That is different than their"},{"startTime":190.407,"endTime":193.737,"body":"relationship with product."},{"startTime":194.217,"endTime":196.227,"body":"Product relationship"},{"startTime":194.217,"endTime":196.227,"body":"is more transactional."},{"startTime":196.477,"endTime":199.507,"body":"I talked to you, I get the"},{"startTime":196.477,"endTime":199.507,"body":"feature, I build a feature."},{"startTime":199.667,"endTime":201.087,"body":"I put out with some release notes."},{"startTime":201.167,"endTime":201.807,"body":"Go away."},{"startTime":201.817,"endTime":202.997,"body":"we did on a podcast."},{"startTime":203.037,"endTime":207.307,"body":"We had the quad where it was a"},{"startTime":203.037,"endTime":207.307,"body":"user stakeholder management and"},{"startTime":207.317,"endTime":211.237,"body":"it was like a power over influence"},{"startTime":207.317,"endTime":211.237,"body":"matrix , if you map out that quad,"},{"startTime":211.487,"endTime":214.267,"body":"you have a different communication"},{"startTime":211.487,"endTime":214.267,"body":"strategy for each piece of the quad"},{"startTime":214.367,"endTime":216.757,"body":"Certain people you go back to and you're"},{"startTime":214.367,"endTime":216.757,"body":"like, Hey, I want to do this feature."},{"startTime":216.927,"endTime":218.337,"body":"This is the way I'm thinking"},{"startTime":216.927,"endTime":218.337,"body":"about implementing it."},{"startTime":218.687,"endTime":221.717,"body":"Maybe you run the wireframes by those"},{"startTime":218.687,"endTime":221.717,"body":"people and you get their advanced input."},{"startTime":221.907,"endTime":224.717,"body":"But some people you just send them in a"},{"startTime":221.907,"endTime":224.717,"body":"release notes when you're done with it."},{"startTime":225.017,"endTime":227.567,"body":"one of those pieces of the quad"},{"startTime":225.017,"endTime":227.567,"body":"that you should be meeting with."},{"startTime":227.817,"endTime":230.317,"body":"Like face to face, you should"},{"startTime":227.817,"endTime":230.317,"body":"actually be talking to them."},{"startTime":230.457,"endTime":231.867,"body":"I mean, face to face could be online."},{"startTime":231.927,"endTime":232.907,"body":"But it's not in person."},{"startTime":232.907,"endTime":234.417,"body":"It's talking to people in real time."},{"startTime":234.507,"endTime":237.187,"body":"You should be talking to them"},{"startTime":234.507,"endTime":237.187,"body":"in real time, but also not"},{"startTime":237.207,"endTime":239.067,"body":"just at the beginning, right?"},{"startTime":239.067,"endTime":243.127,"body":"You should time them throughout as you're"},{"startTime":239.067,"endTime":243.127,"body":"building the product, show that to them as"},{"startTime":243.127,"endTime":247.097,"body":"frequently as you can, because then you're"},{"startTime":243.127,"endTime":247.097,"body":"closing the feedback loop and you're"},{"startTime":247.097,"endTime":248.797,"body":"getting feedback as fast as possible."},{"startTime":248.972,"endTime":252.192,"body":"I might be advancing to another"},{"startTime":248.972,"endTime":252.192,"body":"talking point that we have here."},{"startTime":252.292,"endTime":258.672,"body":"Later, but most teams have the to do doing"},{"startTime":252.292,"endTime":258.672,"body":"done some variation of to do to, to do"},{"startTime":258.922,"endTime":263.922,"body":"picked up by development waiting on QA you"},{"startTime":258.922,"endTime":263.922,"body":"know, waiting to go out to the, whatever,"},{"startTime":263.922,"endTime":266.512,"body":"pipeline to stage or whatever, like Sure."},{"startTime":266.572,"endTime":268.562,"body":"It's all basically to do doing done."},{"startTime":268.742,"endTime":269.002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":269.112,"endTime":272.302,"body":"Very few teams have to do doing done."},{"startTime":272.552,"endTime":276.472,"body":"And then a swim lane after that says"},{"startTime":272.552,"endTime":276.472,"body":"validating with the customer that"},{"startTime":276.472,"endTime":278.232,"body":"we actually solved their problem."},{"startTime":278.482,"endTime":281.152,"body":"I, I mean, I'm talking 20 years."},{"startTime":281.402,"endTime":285.532,"body":"I've seen maybe one team that has"},{"startTime":281.402,"endTime":285.532,"body":"done it that way, where it's just"},{"startTime":285.532,"endTime":287.172,"body":"ingrained in part of their process."},{"startTime":287.202,"endTime":290.742,"body":"And I feel if you had a system"},{"startTime":287.202,"endTime":290.742,"body":"like that, that just, it was just"},{"startTime":290.742,"endTime":293.632,"body":"ingrained in the process, it's like,"},{"startTime":290.742,"endTime":293.632,"body":"Oh yeah, we set the board up and it's"},{"startTime":293.632,"endTime":295.412,"body":"got the validation step after done."},{"startTime":295.572,"endTime":296.272,"body":"Of course it does."},{"startTime":296.402,"endTime":297.422,"body":"Why wouldn't we do that?"},{"startTime":297.612,"endTime":300.412,"body":"Like if you set it up that way, it"},{"startTime":297.612,"endTime":300.412,"body":"was just so ingrained in the culture."},{"startTime":300.662,"endTime":305.192,"body":"These people Problems it would"},{"startTime":300.662,"endTime":305.192,"body":"just be instead of implied,"},{"startTime":305.632,"endTime":307.732,"body":"it would just be like organic."},{"startTime":307.732,"endTime":308.692,"body":"It will just be part of it."},{"startTime":308.692,"endTime":310.692,"body":"So what doesn't help here, right?"},{"startTime":310.752,"endTime":311.712,"body":"Are the tools."},{"startTime":312.112,"endTime":315.342,"body":"I don't know any tool that you can,"},{"startTime":312.112,"endTime":315.342,"body":"that you can say something is done."},{"startTime":315.372,"endTime":318.312,"body":"And there's yet another column"},{"startTime":315.372,"endTime":318.312,"body":"beyond that they stop it done."},{"startTime":318.562,"endTime":322.232,"body":"I will forces the thinking among teams"},{"startTime":318.562,"endTime":322.232,"body":"that when you're done, you're done."},{"startTime":322.552,"endTime":326.222,"body":"I'm a hundred percent with you that"},{"startTime":322.552,"endTime":326.222,"body":"this is one of my learnings is like,"},{"startTime":326.222,"endTime":330.172,"body":"the tools are completely deficient and"},{"startTime":326.222,"endTime":330.172,"body":"that's because like the most powerful"},{"startTime":330.172,"endTime":332.472,"body":"tool in software development is empathy."},{"startTime":332.542,"endTime":337.342,"body":"And they're like rolling empathy into your"},{"startTime":332.542,"endTime":337.342,"body":"tool by having something like a validation"},{"startTime":337.342,"endTime":341.342,"body":"column that says like, okay, we did the"},{"startTime":337.342,"endTime":341.342,"body":"thing we said we were going to do now."},{"startTime":341.592,"endTime":343.592,"body":"We need a placeholder for a conversation."},{"startTime":343.842,"endTime":349.042,"body":"To make sure that we're on the same"},{"startTime":343.842,"endTime":349.042,"body":"page, just to follow up, to be good."},{"startTime":349.442,"endTime":354.092,"body":"You know, this is, I ascribed all of"},{"startTime":349.442,"endTime":354.092,"body":"this to operational type of activities."},{"startTime":354.472,"endTime":356.052,"body":"It's just being a good operator."},{"startTime":356.332,"endTime":358.562,"body":"You said you would give"},{"startTime":356.332,"endTime":358.562,"body":"me money for a thing."},{"startTime":358.832,"endTime":360.372,"body":"I said, I could do a thing by a date."},{"startTime":360.612,"endTime":361.892,"body":"I did a thing by a date."},{"startTime":362.142,"endTime":365.012,"body":"Now I just got to follow up with"},{"startTime":362.142,"endTime":365.012,"body":"you and say, Hey, after I take"},{"startTime":365.012,"endTime":366.562,"body":"your money, is this thing good?"},{"startTime":366.847,"endTime":367.757,"body":"Does it work for you?"},{"startTime":367.757,"endTime":369.157,"body":"Is there something we could do better?"},{"startTime":369.407,"endTime":372.527,"body":"Get a little feedback and our"},{"startTime":369.407,"endTime":372.527,"body":"relationship will develop."},{"startTime":372.537,"endTime":376.487,"body":"We'll get a little stronger as partners"},{"startTime":372.537,"endTime":376.487,"body":"and you'll be happier and I'll be happier."},{"startTime":376.677,"endTime":377.737,"body":"Yeah, it's a win win."},{"startTime":377.757,"endTime":378.827,"body":"This is not a zero sum game."},{"startTime":378.837,"endTime":379.647,"body":"It's absolutely not."},{"startTime":379.677,"endTime":383.627,"body":"I mean, speaking to customers after you"},{"startTime":379.677,"endTime":383.627,"body":"delivered something and actually following"},{"startTime":383.627,"endTime":387.557,"body":"up in a caring way, you're building trust"},{"startTime":383.627,"endTime":387.557,"body":"is what you're doing right over time."},{"startTime":387.957,"endTime":388.647,"body":"And trust."},{"startTime":389.002,"endTime":390.662,"body":"Translates to loyalty"},{"startTime":389.002,"endTime":390.662,"body":"at the end of the day."},{"startTime":390.663,"endTime":394.542,"body":"I mean, you may be shocked at learning"},{"startTime":390.663,"endTime":394.542,"body":"things like, okay, we deployed"},{"startTime":394.542,"endTime":397.632,"body":"this in production, we're done,"},{"startTime":394.542,"endTime":397.632,"body":"but is the customer even using it?"},{"startTime":398.002,"endTime":403.232,"body":"Another takeaway is your time"},{"startTime":398.002,"endTime":403.232,"body":"to learning is probably more"},{"startTime":403.572,"endTime":406.272,"body":"valuable than nearly anything else."},{"startTime":406.292,"endTime":410.702,"body":"Reducing the time between you don't know"},{"startTime":406.292,"endTime":410.702,"body":"something and now you're an expert at it"},{"startTime":411.122,"endTime":413.802,"body":"I went to a networking event recently"},{"startTime":411.122,"endTime":413.802,"body":"where I was going on and on about"},{"startTime":413.802,"endTime":416.622,"body":"using Python and a grid framework that"},{"startTime":413.802,"endTime":416.622,"body":"I was like, why can't I just get a"},{"startTime":416.632,"endTime":421.032,"body":"good grid framework that I can just"},{"startTime":416.632,"endTime":421.032,"body":"like, here's the grid, Mr. Framework,"},{"startTime":421.142,"endTime":424.252,"body":"just do things and figure it out."},{"startTime":424.452,"endTime":427.102,"body":"Like, first of all, I figured it out."},{"startTime":427.192,"endTime":427.762,"body":"AG grid."},{"startTime":427.882,"endTime":428.362,"body":"Thanks, Ed."},{"startTime":428.452,"endTime":430.672,"body":"The time between like, I"},{"startTime":428.452,"endTime":430.672,"body":"just need aggrid framework."},{"startTime":430.692,"endTime":436.942,"body":"I have no idea what I want to do to like"},{"startTime":430.692,"endTime":436.942,"body":"AG grid with when you're returning a date,"},{"startTime":437.232,"endTime":440.332,"body":"you never need more than like 20 pixels."},{"startTime":440.582,"endTime":444.412,"body":"To do the date and then you can flex"},{"startTime":440.582,"endTime":444.412,"body":"the rest of the columns and just say"},{"startTime":444.412,"endTime":449.262,"body":"like go crazy You know column length"},{"startTime":444.412,"endTime":449.262,"body":"or flex equals one for everything all"},{"startTime":449.282,"endTime":453.042,"body":"equal length everything all day long"},{"startTime":449.282,"endTime":453.042,"body":"But this particular column it always"},{"startTime":453.042,"endTime":458.112,"body":"has to be at least you know Min min"},{"startTime":453.042,"endTime":458.112,"body":"with 20 pixels like until I got to that"},{"startTime":458.112,"endTime":462.572,"body":"learning the time between oh, I need"},{"startTime":458.112,"endTime":462.572,"body":"a grid I don't understand to I got it."},{"startTime":462.642,"endTime":464.282,"body":"I like this is how to"},{"startTime":462.642,"endTime":464.282,"body":"do what I'm looking for."},{"startTime":464.582,"endTime":467.943,"body":"Like Shortening that time and making"},{"startTime":464.582,"endTime":467.943,"body":"sure there's no barriers between"},{"startTime":467.943,"endTime":471.723,"body":"me just going out over the entire"},{"startTime":467.943,"endTime":471.723,"body":"open internet to shorten that time."},{"startTime":472.003,"endTime":473.993,"body":"Like that is what I call learning speed."},{"startTime":474.273,"endTime":476.503,"body":"I did it with grids in this example."},{"startTime":476.793,"endTime":480.733,"body":"It could be deployment or kubernetes"},{"startTime":476.793,"endTime":480.733,"body":"or learning how to use AWS or  how"},{"startTime":480.733,"endTime":484.133,"body":"to do on prem when you're spending"},{"startTime":480.733,"endTime":484.133,"body":"a bajillion dollars in the cloud."},{"startTime":484.583,"endTime":488.163,"body":"So time to acquire the"},{"startTime":484.583,"endTime":488.163,"body":"knowledge you don't have, right?"},{"startTime":488.203,"endTime":492.103,"body":"The time to learning that that is"},{"startTime":488.203,"endTime":492.103,"body":"actually what we're saying here is that"},{"startTime":492.123,"endTime":495.723,"body":"that's actually more important than the"},{"startTime":492.123,"endTime":495.723,"body":"learning itself because you're going"},{"startTime":495.723,"endTime":500.933,"body":"to continue to improve on that time and"},{"startTime":495.723,"endTime":500.933,"body":"shorten it by The approaches you take."},{"startTime":501.183,"endTime":504.733,"body":"Never mind the fact that technology being"},{"startTime":501.183,"endTime":504.733,"body":"what it is today time to learning is"},{"startTime":505.173,"endTime":509.823,"body":"enabled, you can shorten it because you"},{"startTime":505.173,"endTime":509.823,"body":"now have AI and it can do a lot, right?"},{"startTime":509.843,"endTime":512.423,"body":"It can give you code for specific"},{"startTime":509.843,"endTime":512.423,"body":"things that you can give it"},{"startTime":512.423,"endTime":515.633,"body":"scenarios and say, write me Python"},{"startTime":512.423,"endTime":515.633,"body":"for this and we'll do that for you."},{"startTime":515.693,"endTime":516.093,"body":"It sure can."},{"startTime":516.103,"endTime":517.873,"body":"It can't debug worth of Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":517.943,"endTime":518.383,"body":"Not yet."},{"startTime":518.633,"endTime":522.543,"body":"We started with this whole category"},{"startTime":518.633,"endTime":522.543,"body":"of like recession proof your career."},{"startTime":522.843,"endTime":526.913,"body":"Like the, the people that can shorten"},{"startTime":522.843,"endTime":526.913,"body":"that learning time, which, which honestly,"},{"startTime":526.913,"endTime":528.893,"body":"a lot of it is done on your own time."},{"startTime":529.153,"endTime":533.223,"body":"If you're a curious person and you"},{"startTime":529.153,"endTime":533.223,"body":"like doing this stuff, And you're"},{"startTime":533.353,"endTime":535.673,"body":"adaptable  then I think you'll be okay."},{"startTime":536.103,"endTime":538.573,"body":"You know, again, I worked at a place"},{"startTime":536.103,"endTime":538.573,"body":"and I've told the story on different"},{"startTime":538.573,"endTime":542.433,"body":"pockets when I was a manager of QA and"},{"startTime":538.573,"endTime":542.433,"body":"I would interview people, I would tell"},{"startTime":542.433,"endTime":546.423,"body":"them like, Hey, if you're, if you're"},{"startTime":542.433,"endTime":546.423,"body":"a curious person and turning over your"},{"startTime":546.423,"endTime":550.743,"body":"whole skillset in three years, appeals"},{"startTime":546.423,"endTime":550.743,"body":"to you to be meeting all the tools"},{"startTime":550.783,"endTime":552.903,"body":"and technology that you use today."},{"startTime":552.953,"endTime":555.103,"body":"Three years from now will"},{"startTime":552.953,"endTime":555.103,"body":"be completely different."},{"startTime":555.423,"endTime":556.753,"body":"Like think about that completely."},{"startTime":556.753,"endTime":561.333,"body":"I mean, it's a little bit different now"},{"startTime":556.753,"endTime":561.333,"body":"with AWS because AWS and like Azure cloud"},{"startTime":561.333,"endTime":562.863,"body":"and stuff will probably always be there."},{"startTime":563.323,"endTime":566.853,"body":"But like even that, like 10 years"},{"startTime":563.323,"endTime":566.853,"body":"ago, that wasn't a thing, right?"},{"startTime":566.903,"endTime":568.143,"body":"They weren't always going to be there."},{"startTime":568.433,"endTime":571.023,"body":"So like three years from now,"},{"startTime":568.433,"endTime":571.023,"body":"who knows what's going to happen."},{"startTime":571.023,"endTime":574.083,"body":"The beginning of my career,"},{"startTime":571.023,"endTime":574.083,"body":"Python it did not even exist."},{"startTime":574.443,"endTime":577.913,"body":"And now I pretty much exclusively"},{"startTime":574.443,"endTime":577.913,"body":"write everything in Python,"},{"startTime":578.193,"endTime":578.873,"body":"like that kind of thing."},{"startTime":578.873,"endTime":582.423,"body":"If you're excited by that, you probably"},{"startTime":578.873,"endTime":582.423,"body":"be okay with this, but also you, you"},{"startTime":582.673,"endTime":585.783,"body":"corporate America is not going to make"},{"startTime":582.673,"endTime":585.783,"body":"time for you to learn those skills."},{"startTime":586.103,"endTime":587.863,"body":"You're going to have to do it."},{"startTime":588.173,"endTime":590.333,"body":"That's not a statement"},{"startTime":588.173,"endTime":590.333,"body":"like against or for."},{"startTime":590.678,"endTime":591.358,"body":"Corporate America."},{"startTime":591.608,"endTime":595.118,"body":"I'm just saying, if you want to have"},{"startTime":591.608,"endTime":595.118,"body":"a lengthy career that is a truth."},{"startTime":595.378,"endTime":598.628,"body":"You got to be hungry to enable"},{"startTime":595.378,"endTime":598.628,"body":"yourself basically . And it's"},{"startTime":598.698,"endTime":599.858,"body":"largely in your own time."},{"startTime":599.888,"endTime":600.498,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":600.528,"endTime":604.038,"body":"But this is an example of"},{"startTime":600.528,"endTime":604.038,"body":"resilience adaptability, right?"},{"startTime":604.288,"endTime":607.518,"body":"There are lots and lots of other"},{"startTime":604.288,"endTime":607.518,"body":"ways you can be adaptable as well."},{"startTime":607.528,"endTime":609.998,"body":"And we'll talk some about some"},{"startTime":607.528,"endTime":609.998,"body":"of those a little bit later."},{"startTime":610.048,"endTime":612.808,"body":"The other thing I want to talk"},{"startTime":610.048,"endTime":612.808,"body":"about is  the old Marty Cagan"},{"startTime":612.828,"endTime":614.818,"body":"innovation or innovation theater."},{"startTime":614.818,"endTime":615.208,"body":"What does he call it?"},{"startTime":615.448,"endTime":617.498,"body":"I think he calls it"},{"startTime":615.448,"endTime":617.498,"body":"Product theater circus."},{"startTime":617.508,"endTime":619.068,"body":"No, he calls it theater."},{"startTime":619.068,"endTime":622.618,"body":"I can't remember what he calls it, but"},{"startTime":619.068,"endTime":622.618,"body":"basically the idea of like innovation"},{"startTime":622.618,"endTime":626.678,"body":"theater versus like actual product"},{"startTime":622.618,"endTime":626.678,"body":"operating model transformation,"},{"startTime":627.098,"endTime":630.058,"body":"or if you're more than 18 months"},{"startTime":627.098,"endTime":630.058,"body":"old, like agile transformation."},{"startTime":630.138,"endTime":633.078,"body":"Organizations generally over"},{"startTime":630.138,"endTime":633.078,"body":"the course of my career they"},{"startTime":633.398,"endTime":635.328,"body":"can get confused utilization."},{"startTime":635.798,"endTime":638.788,"body":"with progress and this"},{"startTime":635.798,"endTime":638.788,"body":"is pretty ubiquitous."},{"startTime":638.868,"endTime":639.988,"body":"Yeah, unfortunately."},{"startTime":640.018,"endTime":640.348,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":640.598,"endTime":644.288,"body":"I mean, that's already been talked"},{"startTime":640.598,"endTime":644.288,"body":"about ad nauseam out there, right?"},{"startTime":644.308,"endTime":646.668,"body":"Utilization over effectiveness."},{"startTime":647.078,"endTime":648.978,"body":"People talk about"},{"startTime":647.078,"endTime":648.978,"body":"efficiency as well, right?"},{"startTime":649.008,"endTime":649.698,"body":"In the same vein."},{"startTime":649.708,"endTime":652.608,"body":"It's like per dollar, what are we getting?"},{"startTime":652.858,"endTime":655.078,"body":"First of all, it's very"},{"startTime":652.858,"endTime":655.078,"body":"difficult to measure."},{"startTime":655.253,"endTime":656.373,"body":"And what you're getting, right?"},{"startTime":656.863,"endTime":660.063,"body":"So the only thing you could do is"},{"startTime":656.863,"endTime":660.063,"body":"make it relative, like per dollar,"},{"startTime":660.063,"endTime":663.103,"body":"what are you getting today compared"},{"startTime":660.063,"endTime":663.103,"body":"to what we got last month or, or"},{"startTime":663.103,"endTime":664.553,"body":"what can we be getting next month?"},{"startTime":665.023,"endTime":666.093,"body":"All of that is futile."},{"startTime":666.103,"endTime":669.983,"body":"The only thing that really matters is"},{"startTime":666.103,"endTime":669.983,"body":"keeping those smiles on the customers"},{"startTime":670.123,"endTime":676.403,"body":"the real change happens not from top down"},{"startTime":670.123,"endTime":676.403,"body":"dictates or  technology changes the real"},{"startTime":676.403,"endTime":681.593,"body":"change happens when somebody agrees to"},{"startTime":676.403,"endTime":681.593,"body":"change the way they think about something."},{"startTime":681.843,"endTime":684.613,"body":"And  this is the introduction of"},{"startTime":681.843,"endTime":684.613,"body":"product management to the field and"},{"startTime":684.613,"endTime":688.203,"body":"why product management has become"},{"startTime":684.613,"endTime":688.203,"body":"as successful as a career track as"},{"startTime":688.203,"endTime":693.943,"body":"it is, is because organizationally,"},{"startTime":688.203,"endTime":693.943,"body":"it's their job to adjust their views"},{"startTime":693.953,"endTime":695.553,"body":"based on the evidence that they see."},{"startTime":695.803,"endTime":696.923,"body":"It's so ingrained."},{"startTime":696.923,"endTime":699.283,"body":"And there's some different"},{"startTime":696.923,"endTime":699.283,"body":"roles coming up now."},{"startTime":699.283,"endTime":701.293,"body":"You actually researcher"},{"startTime":699.283,"endTime":701.293,"body":"and stuff like that."},{"startTime":701.403,"endTime":704.123,"body":"But like, organizationally,"},{"startTime":701.403,"endTime":704.123,"body":"the product managers now are"},{"startTime":704.123,"endTime":707.103,"body":"the people that are leading the"},{"startTime":704.123,"endTime":707.103,"body":"way through this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":707.103,"endTime":709.753,"body":"It's like normally you'd have"},{"startTime":707.103,"endTime":709.753,"body":"a manager and they say oh,"},{"startTime":709.753,"endTime":710.693,"body":"we have this new initiative."},{"startTime":710.693,"endTime":711.593,"body":"We're going to push whatever."},{"startTime":711.923,"endTime":714.883,"body":"And people go back to doing whatever"},{"startTime":711.923,"endTime":714.883,"body":"they're doing when the manager"},{"startTime":714.893,"endTime":717.263,"body":"goes away, but a product manager,"},{"startTime":714.893,"endTime":717.263,"body":"like you, you're being delegated."},{"startTime":717.263,"endTime":719.393,"body":"We did a podcast on the"},{"startTime":717.263,"endTime":719.393,"body":"Amazon looking backwards."},{"startTime":719.393,"endTime":722.583,"body":"Amazon will declare like a single"},{"startTime":719.393,"endTime":722.583,"body":"thread, a leader like, okay, you're"},{"startTime":722.583,"endTime":726.023,"body":"the person to figure out like how"},{"startTime":722.583,"endTime":726.023,"body":"we store our data in the cloud."},{"startTime":726.173,"endTime":727.783,"body":"And then AWS evolves from that."},{"startTime":727.793,"endTime":731.223,"body":"Or you're the person to figure out"},{"startTime":727.793,"endTime":731.223,"body":"how to bring a streaming video."},{"startTime":731.223,"endTime":733.423,"body":"And then Amazon prime works out from that."},{"startTime":733.433,"endTime":735.003,"body":"So that's the way they do it."},{"startTime":735.023,"endTime":738.853,"body":"And product management has kind of evolved"},{"startTime":735.023,"endTime":738.853,"body":"from that kind of ethos it's like giving"},{"startTime":738.853,"endTime":742.733,"body":"a product manager, the budget and the"},{"startTime":738.853,"endTime":742.733,"body":"bandwidth to do a thing, and then like"},{"startTime":742.763,"endTime":746.143,"body":"leaving them alone to do it that's,"},{"startTime":742.763,"endTime":746.143,"body":"that's trust them to get the job done."},{"startTime":746.143,"endTime":746.833,"body":"Don't interfere."},{"startTime":746.853,"endTime":747.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":747.123,"endTime":747.703,"body":"That's the idea here."},{"startTime":747.703,"endTime":750.423,"body":"And then like organizations that are not"},{"startTime":747.703,"endTime":750.423,"body":"doing this, like I tell people all the"},{"startTime":750.423,"endTime":754.233,"body":"time, if you don't control the budget"},{"startTime":750.423,"endTime":754.233,"body":"and then you have to ask for a budget,"},{"startTime":754.453,"endTime":757.083,"body":"go up and find that person that you have"},{"startTime":754.453,"endTime":757.083,"body":"to ask for budget that says, yes, no."},{"startTime":757.428,"endTime":759.238,"body":"That's the real product manager people."},{"startTime":759.718,"endTime":762.528,"body":"And listen, people react"},{"startTime":759.718,"endTime":762.528,"body":"very poorly to that."},{"startTime":762.778,"endTime":763.748,"body":"It's a hundred percent true."},{"startTime":763.798,"endTime":766.978,"body":"It'll be the same people that have to"},{"startTime":763.798,"endTime":766.978,"body":"keep going back to the well for more"},{"startTime":766.978,"endTime":769.048,"body":"funding because they don't get it."},{"startTime":769.048,"endTime":770.518,"body":"People do not like being told that."},{"startTime":770.598,"endTime":771.048,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":771.098,"endTime":771.718,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":771.748,"endTime":775.008,"body":"But, but look, at the end of the"},{"startTime":771.748,"endTime":775.008,"body":"day, everyone's experienced this."},{"startTime":775.008,"endTime":778.158,"body":"If you've been in this space for any"},{"startTime":775.008,"endTime":778.158,"body":"length of time, you've experienced this."},{"startTime":778.408,"endTime":780.498,"body":"Well, speaking of things"},{"startTime":778.408,"endTime":780.498,"body":"that are nonsense."},{"startTime":780.748,"endTime":784.658,"body":"There's a phrase that people misinterpret"},{"startTime":780.748,"endTime":784.658,"body":"all the time what gets measured,"},{"startTime":784.708,"endTime":787.298,"body":"gets managed or something like that,"},{"startTime":784.708,"endTime":787.298,"body":"which wasn't the original quote."},{"startTime":787.768,"endTime":791.198,"body":"I think it was a Peter Drucker"},{"startTime":787.768,"endTime":791.198,"body":"quote that is let me go find it."},{"startTime":791.418,"endTime":792.508,"body":"People have, yeah, find it."},{"startTime":792.998,"endTime":794.108,"body":"People have actually abused it."},{"startTime":794.358,"endTime":798.108,"body":"What gets measured gets managed is"},{"startTime":794.358,"endTime":798.108,"body":"wrong and Drucker never said it."},{"startTime":798.158,"endTime":799.228,"body":"Where's the real quote though?"},{"startTime":799.478,"endTime":800.168,"body":"This is gonna hurt."},{"startTime":800.168,"endTime":802.528,"body":"I was gonna say, we're"},{"startTime":800.168,"endTime":802.528,"body":"dredging the internet now."},{"startTime":802.528,"endTime":803.668,"body":"I'm not gonna be able to find it here."},{"startTime":803.918,"endTime":807.778,"body":"There's a through thread through my"},{"startTime":803.918,"endTime":807.778,"body":"whole career about metrics,  I'll"},{"startTime":807.778,"endTime":812.418,"body":"use the yearly performance review"},{"startTime":807.778,"endTime":812.418,"body":"as a perfect example of this."},{"startTime":812.518,"endTime":814.458,"body":"Yearly performance review happens."},{"startTime":814.508,"endTime":816.558,"body":"Welcome to Brian Om's  software"},{"startTime":814.508,"endTime":816.558,"body":"development company."},{"startTime":816.948,"endTime":818.968,"body":"Your bonus is tied to"},{"startTime":816.948,"endTime":818.968,"body":"year end performance."},{"startTime":819.268,"endTime":822.168,"body":"Your pay raise next year is"},{"startTime":819.268,"endTime":822.168,"body":"tied to year end performance."},{"startTime":822.268,"endTime":826.328,"body":"As your manager Om, I don't know how at"},{"startTime":822.268,"endTime":826.328,"body":"Brian Om's company, I'm your manager,"},{"startTime":826.328,"endTime":829.458,"body":"but based on my review, we recommended"},{"startTime":826.328,"endTime":829.458,"body":"pay raise for you and all that kind"},{"startTime":829.458,"endTime":833.598,"body":"of stuff, except like maybe I'm out of"},{"startTime":829.458,"endTime":833.598,"body":"vacation  like half of December . So"},{"startTime":833.598,"endTime":837.728,"body":"then you're like, you don't get your"},{"startTime":833.598,"endTime":837.728,"body":"performance and whatever, but somehow."},{"startTime":837.978,"endTime":842.338,"body":"Come January 1st, your first paycheck"},{"startTime":837.978,"endTime":842.338,"body":"in January has your pay raise already"},{"startTime":842.338,"endTime":846.887,"body":"in it, already predetermined I"},{"startTime":842.338,"endTime":846.887,"body":"can't tell you how many times that"},{"startTime":846.887,"endTime":848.097,"body":"has happened to me in my career."},{"startTime":848.097,"endTime":851.227,"body":"And  when I mentioned it out"},{"startTime":848.097,"endTime":851.227,"body":"loud, people do this weird dance"},{"startTime":851.407,"endTime":852.707,"body":"about like, Ooh, I don't know."},{"startTime":852.707,"endTime":856.707,"body":"But I understand that there are"},{"startTime":852.707,"endTime":856.707,"body":"numbers that finance gave you we"},{"startTime":856.707,"endTime":859.557,"body":"can both understand that's the"},{"startTime":856.707,"endTime":859.557,"body":"way the corporate game is played"},{"startTime":859.957,"endTime":864.177,"body":"We like the people we like we don't"},{"startTime":859.957,"endTime":864.177,"body":"like the people we don't like And we"},{"startTime":864.257,"endTime":867.377,"body":"know what those numbers are going to be"},{"startTime":864.257,"endTime":867.377,"body":"regardless if I was a good performer in"},{"startTime":867.377,"endTime":872.977,"body":"the year or not  let's push the fallacy"},{"startTime":867.377,"endTime":872.977,"body":"of these metrics that they matter Okay."},{"startTime":873.157,"endTime":873.417,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":873.417,"endTime":876.547,"body":"I mean, look, everybody has"},{"startTime":873.417,"endTime":876.547,"body":"their favorites at work."},{"startTime":876.557,"endTime":878.807,"body":"And so, yeah they're going to"},{"startTime":876.557,"endTime":878.807,"body":"do what they're going to do."},{"startTime":878.847,"endTime":880.597,"body":"That's the thing about humans, right?"},{"startTime":880.597,"endTime":884.947,"body":"That one person who is going to judge"},{"startTime":880.597,"endTime":884.947,"body":"you, how you're your performance has been."},{"startTime":885.197,"endTime":889.097,"body":"So nowadays though they say, well, we're"},{"startTime":885.197,"endTime":889.097,"body":"going to talk about your performance,"},{"startTime":889.137,"endTime":890.617,"body":"but your pay raise is not tied to that."},{"startTime":890.867,"endTime":892.427,"body":"In other words, you're"},{"startTime":890.867,"endTime":892.427,"body":"not getting any pay raise."},{"startTime":892.567,"endTime":892.957,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":893.207,"endTime":895.647,"body":"That's when you say, well,"},{"startTime":893.207,"endTime":895.647,"body":"have a nice vacation."},{"startTime":895.907,"endTime":901.777,"body":"I have seen quantitative metrics"},{"startTime":895.907,"endTime":901.777,"body":"destroy the qualitative essence."},{"startTime":902.262,"endTime":906.362,"body":"Of the work in a majority of places"},{"startTime":902.262,"endTime":906.362,"body":"that I've worked because we have"},{"startTime":906.442,"endTime":908.932,"body":"picked the number out of the air"},{"startTime":906.442,"endTime":908.932,"body":"and are shooting for that number."},{"startTime":908.932,"endTime":913.542,"body":"And I think anybody listening to this can"},{"startTime":908.932,"endTime":913.542,"body":"understand when I say velocity, I'm going"},{"startTime":913.542,"endTime":916.862,"body":"to pick velocity as a manager, because"},{"startTime":913.542,"endTime":916.862,"body":"I literally don't know any other number."},{"startTime":916.932,"endTime":921.082,"body":"It's too difficult to educate myself"},{"startTime":916.932,"endTime":921.082,"body":"and what the real numbers that affect"},{"startTime":921.082,"endTime":924.542,"body":"performance would be, and then to go"},{"startTime":921.082,"endTime":924.542,"body":"dig and look for them or to make the"},{"startTime":924.542,"endTime":926.962,"body":"measurable, maybe the systems that I use."},{"startTime":927.422,"endTime":929.022,"body":"Broadly it systems, right?"},{"startTime":929.272,"endTime":933.722,"body":"That they're not capable of logging"},{"startTime":929.272,"endTime":933.722,"body":"the real numbers we'd like to see what,"},{"startTime":934.082,"endTime":936.952,"body":"what are usage of the system by users?"},{"startTime":937.082,"endTime":937.712,"body":"Stuff like that."},{"startTime":937.922,"endTime":941.362,"body":"Well, that would require like"},{"startTime":937.922,"endTime":941.362,"body":"development effort to allow"},{"startTime":941.382,"endTime":943.022,"body":"those things to be measured."},{"startTime":943.412,"endTime":947.152,"body":"So in lieu of that, in the"},{"startTime":943.412,"endTime":947.152,"body":"absence of real metrics."},{"startTime":947.637,"endTime":951.327,"body":"We're going to make up a team"},{"startTime":947.637,"endTime":951.327,"body":"velocity number in even if you do"},{"startTime":951.327,"endTime":954.397,"body":"like all velocities, nonsense, we"},{"startTime":951.327,"endTime":954.397,"body":"use combine, we use throughput or"},{"startTime":954.397,"endTime":959.577,"body":"whatever Number of stories per sprint"},{"startTime":954.397,"endTime":959.577,"body":"or month or timeframe or whatever."},{"startTime":959.907,"endTime":960.827,"body":"Even that can be game."},{"startTime":960.827,"endTime":964.547,"body":"Cause like now we're going to break"},{"startTime":960.827,"endTime":964.547,"body":"our stories down into tiny, tiny"},{"startTime":964.627,"endTime":965.837,"body":"little  to the benefit of our team."},{"startTime":965.847,"endTime":968.297,"body":"Cause like one by one by one,"},{"startTime":965.847,"endTime":968.297,"body":"the old Mike Miller Oh yeah."},{"startTime":968.547,"endTime":973.547,"body":"One, one action, one I always mess up one"},{"startTime":968.547,"endTime":973.547,"body":"actor, one actor, one action, one result."},{"startTime":973.577,"endTime":974.877,"body":"Yeah, great."},{"startTime":974.947,"endTime":975.947,"body":"You should do that."},{"startTime":976.137,"endTime":978.927,"body":"But also there's a gaming of"},{"startTime":976.137,"endTime":978.927,"body":"the system to be happened."},{"startTime":978.927,"endTime":982.902,"body":"So over a career I've gravitated"},{"startTime":978.927,"endTime":982.902,"body":"towards let's all be cool"},{"startTime":983.322,"endTime":984.472,"body":"and not measure anything."},{"startTime":984.722,"endTime":988.792,"body":"Listen, I've never met a metric that"},{"startTime":984.722,"endTime":988.792,"body":"can't be gamed or manipulated, right?"},{"startTime":989.092,"endTime":993.632,"body":"And this goes back a ways before agile,"},{"startTime":989.092,"endTime":993.632,"body":"when we were doing waterfall, right,"},{"startTime":993.702,"endTime":996.932,"body":"then what was happening is people"},{"startTime":993.702,"endTime":996.932,"body":"would simply pick a number out of"},{"startTime":996.942,"endTime":999.062,"body":"the air or date and say, meet this."},{"startTime":999.412,"endTime":1003.182,"body":"You're going to give the, if they ask you"},{"startTime":999.412,"endTime":1003.182,"body":"even, right, you give their estimate, but"},{"startTime":1003.182,"endTime":1006.442,"body":"you're going to pad it in there because"},{"startTime":1003.182,"endTime":1006.442,"body":"you know that it's going to take longer."},{"startTime":1006.522,"endTime":1009.412,"body":"And if it doesn't take longer, you're"},{"startTime":1006.522,"endTime":1009.412,"body":"not going to tell anybody you're done."},{"startTime":1009.412,"endTime":1011.272,"body":"You're going to just wait"},{"startTime":1009.412,"endTime":1011.272,"body":"until that date rolls around."},{"startTime":1011.572,"endTime":1012.522,"body":"Oh man, padding."},{"startTime":1012.532,"endTime":1015.812,"body":"And you bring me back to my early career"},{"startTime":1012.532,"endTime":1015.812,"body":"of padding of like, we had a formula"},{"startTime":1015.812,"endTime":1019.412,"body":"that actually, believe it or not, it"},{"startTime":1015.812,"endTime":1019.412,"body":"was nearly like 95 percent accurate."},{"startTime":1019.682,"endTime":1022.662,"body":"And for a project management"},{"startTime":1019.682,"endTime":1022.662,"body":"formula, that's really impressive."},{"startTime":1022.912,"endTime":1025.992,"body":"It was, it was really close about,"},{"startTime":1022.912,"endTime":1025.992,"body":"it was something along the lines"},{"startTime":1025.992,"endTime":1029.152,"body":"of like, whatever we predict"},{"startTime":1025.992,"endTime":1029.152,"body":"it would take to do the thing."},{"startTime":1029.532,"endTime":1035.012,"body":"We would add a 30 percent padding to"},{"startTime":1029.532,"endTime":1035.012,"body":"it and then we take the whole feature"},{"startTime":1035.442,"endTime":1038.542,"body":"or whatever it was, and we'd add an"},{"startTime":1035.442,"endTime":1038.542,"body":"additional 30 percent on top of it."},{"startTime":1038.552,"endTime":1041.722,"body":"So I don't know what 30 percent of"},{"startTime":1038.552,"endTime":1041.722,"body":"30 percent is, how mathematically"},{"startTime":1041.722,"endTime":1046.992,"body":"that's done, but whatever that is,"},{"startTime":1041.722,"endTime":1046.992,"body":"it ended up being very accurate"},{"startTime":1047.062,"endTime":1048.342,"body":"at that particular workplace."},{"startTime":1048.532,"endTime":1050.202,"body":"But again,  that's the"},{"startTime":1048.532,"endTime":1050.202,"body":"thing about this category."},{"startTime":1050.532,"endTime":1053.712,"body":"It's all contextual with the"},{"startTime":1050.532,"endTime":1053.712,"body":"team and the workplace and the"},{"startTime":1053.722,"endTime":1054.672,"body":"time of work that you're doing."},{"startTime":1054.672,"endTime":1057.997,"body":"And at that point where you're like,"},{"startTime":1054.672,"endTime":1057.997,"body":"Oh, it depends on all these things."},{"startTime":1058.217,"endTime":1059.687,"body":"it's basically useless."},{"startTime":1059.887,"endTime":1063.897,"body":"And then when you change teams or"},{"startTime":1059.887,"endTime":1063.897,"body":"you reform teams or you're get bought"},{"startTime":1063.897,"endTime":1066.507,"body":"by another company or whatever, like"},{"startTime":1063.897,"endTime":1066.507,"body":"all this stuff goes out the door."},{"startTime":1066.507,"endTime":1071.897,"body":"So why bother building so much"},{"startTime":1066.507,"endTime":1071.897,"body":"around this when like the tiniest"},{"startTime":1071.897,"endTime":1074.747,"body":"little, like a breeze rolled through."},{"startTime":1075.167,"endTime":1076.287,"body":"And it's all invalid."},{"startTime":1076.467,"endTime":1080.377,"body":"And also I feel we're ignoring the"},{"startTime":1076.467,"endTime":1080.377,"body":"main thing we could be talking about,"},{"startTime":1080.377,"endTime":1084.747,"body":"which is individual potential and the"},{"startTime":1080.377,"endTime":1084.747,"body":"potential of teams, which is a group"},{"startTime":1084.747,"endTime":1087.477,"body":"of individuals is completely nonlinear."},{"startTime":1087.727,"endTime":1089.667,"body":"And contextual based on what"},{"startTime":1087.727,"endTime":1089.667,"body":"we just were talking about."},{"startTime":1089.707,"endTime":1089.997,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1090.367,"endTime":1090.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1090.617,"endTime":1091.397,"body":"Fully agree with that."},{"startTime":1091.567,"endTime":1097.507,"body":"I'd far rather spend my energy and"},{"startTime":1091.567,"endTime":1097.507,"body":"attention on simply letting the team do"},{"startTime":1097.507,"endTime":1101.987,"body":"its thing, keeping them intact so that"},{"startTime":1097.507,"endTime":1101.987,"body":"they can work well together over time,"},{"startTime":1102.417,"endTime":1104.477,"body":"reduce churn or eliminate it if you can."},{"startTime":1104.807,"endTime":1108.167,"body":"And then you could look back and"},{"startTime":1104.807,"endTime":1108.167,"body":"say, Hey, listen, we did, we did"},{"startTime":1108.167,"endTime":1109.967,"body":"something in the past that took us X."},{"startTime":1110.327,"endTime":1113.767,"body":"This is going to be more or"},{"startTime":1110.327,"endTime":1113.767,"body":"less between X and Y. That's it."},{"startTime":1114.017,"endTime":1119.627,"body":"I'm glad you went there because the,"},{"startTime":1114.017,"endTime":1119.627,"body":"the most important things of a team"},{"startTime":1119.877,"endTime":1122.667,"body":"figuring out how to do something and."},{"startTime":1122.977,"endTime":1127.107,"body":"a team figuring out how to absorb"},{"startTime":1122.977,"endTime":1127.107,"body":"a new person or the loss of an old"},{"startTime":1127.107,"endTime":1130.547,"body":"person or a team figuring out how to"},{"startTime":1127.107,"endTime":1130.547,"body":"communicate with other teams to have"},{"startTime":1130.547,"endTime":1134.277,"body":"their work not interrupted or the"},{"startTime":1130.547,"endTime":1134.277,"body":"decision making process not delayed."},{"startTime":1134.527,"endTime":1137.057,"body":"All of those things were this"},{"startTime":1134.527,"endTime":1137.057,"body":"category is about metrics"},{"startTime":1137.057,"endTime":1137.787,"body":"that we're talking about now."},{"startTime":1138.147,"endTime":1140.007,"body":"All those things don't"},{"startTime":1138.147,"endTime":1140.007,"body":"land on the balance sheet."},{"startTime":1140.008,"endTime":1144.557,"body":"So we have no idea how"},{"startTime":1140.008,"endTime":1144.557,"body":"what is the ROI in my team?"},{"startTime":1144.782,"endTime":1149.112,"body":"Being able to unblock themselves"},{"startTime":1144.782,"endTime":1149.112,"body":"because they've learned this skill."},{"startTime":1149.172,"endTime":1150.292,"body":"I can't tell you what it is."},{"startTime":1150.412,"endTime":1153.392,"body":"Some people might hear that and say like,"},{"startTime":1150.412,"endTime":1153.392,"body":"well, Brian, if you haven't in 20 years,"},{"startTime":1153.392,"endTime":1157.162,"body":"you haven't figured out how to, how to"},{"startTime":1153.392,"endTime":1157.162,"body":"quantify, you know, the, the development"},{"startTime":1157.172,"endTime":1161.112,"body":"of the skill of the team to unblock"},{"startTime":1157.172,"endTime":1161.112,"body":"themselves with regard to other teams"},{"startTime":1161.112,"endTime":1164.512,"body":"that they're dependent on and stuff like"},{"startTime":1161.112,"endTime":1164.512,"body":"that, like maybe you haven't succeeded."},{"startTime":1164.742,"endTime":1170.522,"body":"Yeah, maybe, but also show me what"},{"startTime":1164.742,"endTime":1170.522,"body":"time sheet item I should contribute"},{"startTime":1170.542,"endTime":1173.982,"body":"these hours to where my team is"},{"startTime":1170.542,"endTime":1173.982,"body":"figuring out how to unblock themselves."},{"startTime":1174.122,"endTime":1176.442,"body":"Like they're not writing code, right?"},{"startTime":1176.502,"endTime":1180.472,"body":"They're not contributing directly to a,"},{"startTime":1176.502,"endTime":1180.472,"body":"like a customer that like they're not"},{"startTime":1180.482,"endTime":1184.842,"body":"on the phone with a customer, but they"},{"startTime":1180.482,"endTime":1184.842,"body":"are working within a team going to their"},{"startTime":1184.842,"endTime":1188.652,"body":"standups or going to their refinements"},{"startTime":1184.842,"endTime":1188.652,"body":"or whatever, or having ad hoc meetings."},{"startTime":1189.057,"endTime":1191.977,"body":"And saying like, Oh, well, you have"},{"startTime":1189.057,"endTime":1191.977,"body":"this piece of code and we have this and"},{"startTime":1191.977,"endTime":1193.397,"body":"this, there's this deployment pipeline."},{"startTime":1193.397,"endTime":1196.277,"body":"So how do we contribute to"},{"startTime":1193.397,"endTime":1196.277,"body":"whatever, whose repo do we work in?"},{"startTime":1196.327,"endTime":1201.137,"body":"How do we work together cohesively"},{"startTime":1196.327,"endTime":1201.137,"body":"and then not have it be a big deal"},{"startTime":1201.147,"endTime":1203.967,"body":"when someone just wants to change"},{"startTime":1201.147,"endTime":1203.967,"body":"something easily, like have it just"},{"startTime":1203.977,"endTime":1206.187,"body":"be a normal part of the process."},{"startTime":1206.217,"endTime":1206.807,"body":"Here's another one."},{"startTime":1207.297,"endTime":1212.522,"body":"This developer likes, Collaborating with"},{"startTime":1207.297,"endTime":1212.522,"body":"people they send out a message on Slack."},{"startTime":1212.522,"endTime":1214.992,"body":"Hey, I'm in this part of the"},{"startTime":1212.522,"endTime":1214.992,"body":"code working on this thing today."},{"startTime":1215.102,"endTime":1216.292,"body":"Anybody want to peer with me?"},{"startTime":1216.502,"endTime":1216.722,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1216.742,"endTime":1219.022,"body":"You know, here's a"},{"startTime":1216.742,"endTime":1219.022,"body":"meeting link or whatever."},{"startTime":1219.022,"endTime":1220.652,"body":"I'm on the call now or whatever."},{"startTime":1220.652,"endTime":1221.552,"body":"Here's a huddle."},{"startTime":1221.552,"endTime":1223.272,"body":"If you use a Slack, you"},{"startTime":1221.552,"endTime":1223.272,"body":"have huddles right here."},{"startTime":1223.272,"endTime":1223.812,"body":"I'm on the huddle."},{"startTime":1223.812,"endTime":1224.632,"body":"Now I opened a huddle."},{"startTime":1224.792,"endTime":1226.962,"body":"Like I just opened a room and"},{"startTime":1224.792,"endTime":1226.962,"body":"anybody can join whenever they want."},{"startTime":1227.192,"endTime":1230.712,"body":"Like the people that proactively do that"},{"startTime":1227.192,"endTime":1230.712,"body":"kind of stuff are in a different league"},{"startTime":1230.862,"endTime":1233.882,"body":"than the people that are like, I picked"},{"startTime":1230.862,"endTime":1233.882,"body":"up a workout and I'm doing great today."},{"startTime":1233.892,"endTime":1234.772,"body":"No blockers."},{"startTime":1235.042,"endTime":1237.242,"body":"I can't communicate the"},{"startTime":1235.042,"endTime":1237.242,"body":"database, but no blockers."},{"startTime":1237.342,"endTime":1239.712,"body":"These things are not reflected"},{"startTime":1237.342,"endTime":1239.712,"body":"on the balance sheet."},{"startTime":1239.962,"endTime":1242.642,"body":"We don't have a good way to"},{"startTime":1239.962,"endTime":1242.642,"body":"quantify them on the balance sheet."},{"startTime":1242.982,"endTime":1247.392,"body":"And that's why they potentially"},{"startTime":1242.982,"endTime":1247.392,"body":"will degrade your culture."},{"startTime":1247.692,"endTime":1249.942,"body":"if it persists long enough,"},{"startTime":1247.692,"endTime":1249.942,"body":"it becomes a problem."},{"startTime":1250.122,"endTime":1252.222,"body":"These are hard to measure,"},{"startTime":1250.122,"endTime":1252.222,"body":"just like you said."},{"startTime":1252.252,"endTime":1255.992,"body":"I mean, the two things that come to"},{"startTime":1252.252,"endTime":1255.992,"body":"mind are team building activities."},{"startTime":1256.242,"endTime":1257.412,"body":"How do you measure that?"},{"startTime":1257.632,"endTime":1259.742,"body":"You know, what GL code"},{"startTime":1257.632,"endTime":1259.742,"body":"do you ascribe that to?"},{"startTime":1260.052,"endTime":1263.212,"body":"So the other thing is and you"},{"startTime":1260.052,"endTime":1263.212,"body":"know, it's just a time element."},{"startTime":1263.232,"endTime":1264.082,"body":"You could measure it."},{"startTime":1264.112,"endTime":1267.562,"body":"But how do you measure the value of"},{"startTime":1264.112,"endTime":1267.562,"body":"onboarding and getting somebody new"},{"startTime":1267.562,"endTime":1271.432,"body":"on your team and getting them familiar"},{"startTime":1267.562,"endTime":1271.432,"body":"with what's going on supporting them?"},{"startTime":1271.432,"endTime":1271.642,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1271.652,"endTime":1272.862,"body":"How do you measure that?"},{"startTime":1273.112,"endTime":1276.812,"body":"You could say, well, we spent 14 hours"},{"startTime":1273.112,"endTime":1276.812,"body":"doing that, but it's not like that because"},{"startTime":1276.812,"endTime":1281.602,"body":"the next person people who are higher up"},{"startTime":1276.812,"endTime":1281.602,"body":"measuring this stuff will say 14 hours."},{"startTime":1281.602,"endTime":1283.862,"body":"Okay, that's what it takes"},{"startTime":1281.602,"endTime":1283.862,"body":"to onboard a team member."},{"startTime":1284.032,"endTime":1285.762,"body":"So you've just generalized this."},{"startTime":1285.962,"endTime":1289.142,"body":"So the next time you have someone"},{"startTime":1285.962,"endTime":1289.142,"body":"else joining your team, you're not"},{"startTime":1289.142,"endTime":1291.902,"body":"going to be able to spend longer than"},{"startTime":1289.142,"endTime":1291.902,"body":"that, because that's frowned upon."},{"startTime":1291.912,"endTime":1293.362,"body":"Now, most people just don't."},{"startTime":1293.687,"endTime":1297.337,"body":"I mean, the brutal honesty of this"},{"startTime":1293.687,"endTime":1297.337,"body":"category is the organization is critically"},{"startTime":1297.377,"endTime":1300.507,"body":"undervalue soft skills because it"},{"startTime":1297.377,"endTime":1300.507,"body":"can't measure it on the balance sheet."},{"startTime":1300.747,"endTime":1301.257,"body":"that's the thing."},{"startTime":1301.257,"endTime":1305.487,"body":"But, the soft skills will hurt the whole"},{"startTime":1301.257,"endTime":1305.487,"body":"team and the organization is there's no"},{"startTime":1305.497,"endTime":1310.157,"body":"leadership in the organization taking"},{"startTime":1305.497,"endTime":1310.157,"body":"ownership of people development, it"},{"startTime":1310.157,"endTime":1313.767,"body":"should be like, if people want to call"},{"startTime":1310.157,"endTime":1313.767,"body":"themselves head of people development"},{"startTime":1313.817,"endTime":1316.447,"body":"hr is like relabeling themselves   if"},{"startTime":1313.817,"endTime":1316.447,"body":"you want to claim that you're in"},{"startTime":1316.447,"endTime":1320.037,"body":"charge of these things you need to take"},{"startTime":1316.447,"endTime":1320.037,"body":"ownership of these things  Otherwise,"},{"startTime":1320.147,"endTime":1321.527,"body":"what are you doing with your life?"},{"startTime":1321.567,"endTime":1324.147,"body":"So yeah, this is this whole"},{"startTime":1321.567,"endTime":1324.147,"body":"thing about enabling people."},{"startTime":1324.147,"endTime":1326.737,"body":"I'm not talking about giving them"},{"startTime":1324.147,"endTime":1326.737,"body":"technical courses and things like"},{"startTime":1326.737,"endTime":1329.887,"body":"that for the, the hard skills"},{"startTime":1326.737,"endTime":1329.887,"body":"is all the soft skills, right?"},{"startTime":1329.977,"endTime":1331.667,"body":"Facilitation, for example, right?"},{"startTime":1331.967,"endTime":1335.477,"body":"This leads us right into a category that"},{"startTime":1331.967,"endTime":1335.477,"body":"like, it's, it'll be pretty quick for us"},{"startTime":1335.477,"endTime":1340.367,"body":"because I feel like on a podcast, we harp"},{"startTime":1335.477,"endTime":1340.367,"body":"on this quite enough, which is agile."},{"startTime":1340.632,"endTime":1344.152,"body":"Quote agile being at like"},{"startTime":1340.632,"endTime":1344.152,"body":"a little a agile, it's just"},{"startTime":1344.302,"endTime":1345.912,"body":"therapy for the organization."},{"startTime":1345.972,"endTime":1348.532,"body":"if you're going to sit on"},{"startTime":1345.972,"endTime":1348.532,"body":"the couch of organizational."},{"startTime":1348.588,"endTime":1354.427,"body":"Uh, We're going to talk to you about"},{"startTime":1348.588,"endTime":1354.427,"body":"like, what, why you care about process"},{"startTime":1354.447,"endTime":1357.467,"body":"and all that nonsense instead of"},{"startTime":1354.447,"endTime":1357.467,"body":"actually reading the principles."},{"startTime":1357.677,"endTime":1361.407,"body":"Like when we listened to the Clairvaux"},{"startTime":1357.677,"endTime":1361.407,"body":"podcast, the arguing agile 192, and"},{"startTime":1361.407,"endTime":1363.157,"body":"she was like, Oh, You know what?"},{"startTime":1363.207,"endTime":1367.587,"body":"I'm so inspired that I figured out"},{"startTime":1363.207,"endTime":1367.587,"body":"that a way to run better projects"},{"startTime":1367.587,"endTime":1370.657,"body":"is to organize those projects"},{"startTime":1367.587,"endTime":1370.657,"body":"around motivated individuals."},{"startTime":1370.667,"endTime":1372.637,"body":"And then we build a teams"},{"startTime":1370.667,"endTime":1372.637,"body":"and the projects around them."},{"startTime":1372.767,"endTime":1376.207,"body":"I'm like, that's shocking because"},{"startTime":1372.767,"endTime":1376.207,"body":"I mean, that is almost, almost"},{"startTime":1376.217,"endTime":1377.937,"body":"verbatim and agile principle."},{"startTime":1378.057,"endTime":1381.847,"body":"Principle number five is build projects"},{"startTime":1378.057,"endTime":1381.847,"body":"around motivated individuals, give them"},{"startTime":1381.847,"endTime":1385.447,"body":"the environment and support that they"},{"startTime":1381.847,"endTime":1385.447,"body":"need and trust them to get the job done."},{"startTime":1385.507,"endTime":1388.287,"body":"And she's saying this stuff like"},{"startTime":1385.507,"endTime":1388.287,"body":"I think Ed pointed out to me."},{"startTime":1388.337,"endTime":1392.247,"body":"he's like, listen, somebody just told"},{"startTime":1388.337,"endTime":1392.247,"body":"her that sometime, like in a coaching"},{"startTime":1392.247,"endTime":1393.387,"body":"session, somewhere along the way."},{"startTime":1393.587,"endTime":1396.847,"body":"And she didn't know it was agile"},{"startTime":1393.587,"endTime":1396.847,"body":"principle and she took it and she rolled"},{"startTime":1396.847,"endTime":1400.507,"body":"it into her, Silicon Valley playbook"},{"startTime":1396.847,"endTime":1400.507,"body":"of like cards to throw down on the"},{"startTime":1400.507,"endTime":1402.237,"body":"table when you need to win at hearts."},{"startTime":1402.237,"endTime":1403.637,"body":"He'd be like, boom, eight of hearts."},{"startTime":1403.637,"endTime":1405.047,"body":"I win the game or whatever."},{"startTime":1405.047,"endTime":1408.387,"body":"I was like, do you throw hearts down"},{"startTime":1405.047,"endTime":1408.387,"body":"or you try to not to throw hearts down"},{"startTime":1408.387,"endTime":1411.327,"body":"I can't remember how you went to arts,"},{"startTime":1408.387,"endTime":1411.327,"body":"but like she throws that card down to"},{"startTime":1411.327,"endTime":1412.867,"body":"win the game, it's an agile principle."},{"startTime":1412.917,"endTime":1416.817,"body":"The principles still, like if you"},{"startTime":1412.917,"endTime":1416.817,"body":"go look at the principles and you"},{"startTime":1416.817,"endTime":1420.707,"body":"forget about the, the actual agile"},{"startTime":1416.817,"endTime":1420.707,"body":"manifesto all the values in the, in"},{"startTime":1420.707,"endTime":1424.357,"body":"the, in the agile manifesto, forget"},{"startTime":1420.707,"endTime":1424.357,"body":"those and only look at the principles."},{"startTime":1424.607,"endTime":1429.387,"body":"I feel you'll have a lot of people"},{"startTime":1424.607,"endTime":1429.387,"body":"like regurgitating what it was like"},{"startTime":1429.387,"endTime":1433.597,"body":"written up 20 plus years ago and"},{"startTime":1429.387,"endTime":1433.597,"body":"nothing new has been developed."},{"startTime":1433.707,"endTime":1438.117,"body":"they're more about revealing"},{"startTime":1433.707,"endTime":1438.117,"body":"systemic dysfunction."},{"startTime":1438.187,"endTime":1441.987,"body":"If you look at every single one and then"},{"startTime":1438.187,"endTime":1441.987,"body":"look at your organization in a mirror,"},{"startTime":1442.207,"endTime":1445.907,"body":"they're just saying like, Hey, rather than"},{"startTime":1442.207,"endTime":1445.907,"body":"doing these things that your organization"},{"startTime":1445.907,"endTime":1449.347,"body":"is doing, just talk to customers"},{"startTime":1445.907,"endTime":1449.347,"body":"and build what they want to be cool."},{"startTime":1449.577,"endTime":1453.487,"body":"It's easy to explain and easy to"},{"startTime":1449.577,"endTime":1453.487,"body":"understand, but difficult to master"},{"startTime":1453.767,"endTime":1456.147,"body":"because we have this muscle memory."},{"startTime":1456.177,"endTime":1460.867,"body":"We've always come up through the"},{"startTime":1456.177,"endTime":1460.867,"body":"years, decades of working in this"},{"startTime":1461.027,"endTime":1462.895,"body":"prescribed waterfall type of mentality."},{"startTime":1462.895,"endTime":1467.553,"body":"And so the other customers,"},{"startTime":1462.895,"endTime":1467.553,"body":"no, I know what they want . I"},{"startTime":1467.553,"endTime":1469.013,"body":"talked to them last year."},{"startTime":1469.153,"endTime":1469.873,"body":"I know what they want."},{"startTime":1470.123,"endTime":1474.393,"body":"Well, all the agile stuff is just a"},{"startTime":1470.123,"endTime":1474.393,"body":"means to an end and you have teams"},{"startTime":1474.643,"endTime":1480.323,"body":"that have the psychological safety to"},{"startTime":1474.643,"endTime":1480.323,"body":"ask questions and Question everything,"},{"startTime":1480.503,"endTime":1483.963,"body":"go wherever they want, like basically"},{"startTime":1480.503,"endTime":1483.963,"body":"disregard job titles ask any question to"},{"startTime":1483.963,"endTime":1486.443,"body":"any person and you have teams that don't."},{"startTime":1486.663,"endTime":1492.273,"body":"Teams that use psychological safety as"},{"startTime":1486.663,"endTime":1492.273,"body":"a tool to get ahead, it's the ultimate"},{"startTime":1492.753,"endTime":1495.603,"body":"competitive advantage in that scenario."},{"startTime":1495.663,"endTime":1499.853,"body":"If you're a team that has psychological"},{"startTime":1495.663,"endTime":1499.853,"body":"safety and you have a competitive product"},{"startTime":1499.863,"endTime":1501.853,"body":"slash team that does a similar thing."},{"startTime":1502.103,"endTime":1503.563,"body":"I believe you will win."},{"startTime":1503.813,"endTime":1504.563,"body":"A hundred percent of the time."},{"startTime":1504.813,"endTime":1505.503,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1505.503,"endTime":1508.233,"body":"I think that that advantage is"},{"startTime":1505.503,"endTime":1508.233,"body":"also sustainable because if you're"},{"startTime":1508.233,"endTime":1510.963,"body":"keeping that team together, they're"},{"startTime":1508.233,"endTime":1510.963,"body":"gonna continue to improve the"},{"startTime":1510.963,"endTime":1512.493,"body":"rate at which they improve, right?"},{"startTime":1512.503,"endTime":1516.953,"body":"But to do that, they have to have that,"},{"startTime":1512.503,"endTime":1516.953,"body":"psychological freedom to be able to say"},{"startTime":1516.953,"endTime":1519.173,"body":"no or whatever question everything, right?"},{"startTime":1519.173,"endTime":1519.353,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1519.603,"endTime":1523.163,"body":"I think there's a few statements that"},{"startTime":1519.603,"endTime":1523.163,"body":"I wrote down before we started the"},{"startTime":1523.163,"endTime":1527.513,"body":"podcast teams don't fail because of"},{"startTime":1523.163,"endTime":1527.513,"body":"technical challenges they feel because of"},{"startTime":1527.903,"endTime":1531.253,"body":"failures of trust was a huge statement."},{"startTime":1531.503,"endTime":1535.253,"body":"I think that might be one of those things"},{"startTime":1531.503,"endTime":1535.253,"body":"that's at the root of a lot of things."},{"startTime":1535.483,"endTime":1539.673,"body":"Failure to trust and failure"},{"startTime":1535.483,"endTime":1539.673,"body":"to not only obtain trust, but"},{"startTime":1539.673,"endTime":1542.153,"body":"failure to then also give trust."},{"startTime":1542.193,"endTime":1542.733,"body":"Yeah . Yeah."},{"startTime":1543.003,"endTime":1546.123,"body":"So that principle that we looked"},{"startTime":1543.003,"endTime":1546.123,"body":"at earlier build teams around"},{"startTime":1546.123,"endTime":1549.733,"body":"motivated individuals and give them"},{"startTime":1546.123,"endTime":1549.733,"body":"everything they need to succeed."},{"startTime":1549.793,"endTime":1550.293,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":1550.578,"endTime":1553.228,"body":"Basically, I'm paraphrasing,"},{"startTime":1550.578,"endTime":1553.228,"body":"but get out their way."},{"startTime":1553.708,"endTime":1556.118,"body":"Don't, don't keep looking"},{"startTime":1553.708,"endTime":1556.118,"body":"over their shoulder, right?"},{"startTime":1556.368,"endTime":1557.928,"body":"To do that, you have to trust them."},{"startTime":1558.068,"endTime":1561.198,"body":"That they'll get the job done, and"},{"startTime":1558.068,"endTime":1561.198,"body":"they'll do the best possible job."},{"startTime":1561.438,"endTime":1564.708,"body":"If you don't trust them, they're gonna"},{"startTime":1561.438,"endTime":1564.708,"body":"see that, they're gonna sense that."},{"startTime":1565.068,"endTime":1567.958,"body":"That's like, almost like a"},{"startTime":1565.068,"endTime":1567.958,"body":"approaching a, a strange dog."},{"startTime":1567.968,"endTime":1570.488,"body":"I mean, the dog's gonna bark at"},{"startTime":1567.968,"endTime":1570.488,"body":"you because he senses your fear."},{"startTime":1570.988,"endTime":1572.668,"body":"So that's basically the same thing here."},{"startTime":1572.758,"endTime":1575.898,"body":"if you have two teams, one is"},{"startTime":1572.758,"endTime":1575.898,"body":"psychologically safe and they're,"},{"startTime":1575.928,"endTime":1578.828,"body":"they're really working well together"},{"startTime":1575.928,"endTime":1578.828,"body":"and the other one not so much,"},{"startTime":1578.838,"endTime":1581.768,"body":"you don't hear anything, they tell"},{"startTime":1578.838,"endTime":1581.768,"body":"you what you want to hear, right?"},{"startTime":1582.268,"endTime":1587.708,"body":"In that scenario, it will become very"},{"startTime":1582.268,"endTime":1587.708,"body":"clear where your organizational is flawed"},{"startTime":1587.888,"endTime":1589.858,"body":"in terms of the, the, the work structure."},{"startTime":1589.918,"endTime":1590.928,"body":"It will become very clear."},{"startTime":1591.228,"endTime":1594.228,"body":"The manager over here versus"},{"startTime":1591.228,"endTime":1594.228,"body":"the manager over here."},{"startTime":1594.248,"endTime":1597.278,"body":"I almost want to say leader over"},{"startTime":1594.248,"endTime":1597.278,"body":"here and a manager over here."},{"startTime":1597.308,"endTime":1597.928,"body":"We'll get there."},{"startTime":1598.008,"endTime":1598.918,"body":"We'll get there."},{"startTime":1599.168,"endTime":1604.678,"body":"I mean, well so again, when psychological"},{"startTime":1599.168,"endTime":1604.678,"body":"safety exists on your teams, courage"},{"startTime":1604.778,"endTime":1608.988,"body":"is a renewable resource as opposed to"},{"startTime":1604.778,"endTime":1608.988,"body":"courage is in the form of political"},{"startTime":1608.988,"endTime":1613.768,"body":"capital that you have to expend to get"},{"startTime":1608.988,"endTime":1613.768,"body":"ahead in the organization in a place"},{"startTime":1613.768,"endTime":1615.278,"body":"where you're not psychologically safe."},{"startTime":1615.528,"endTime":1618.788,"body":"I need to interact with this other"},{"startTime":1615.528,"endTime":1618.788,"body":"team to get them to do something"},{"startTime":1618.788,"endTime":1622.788,"body":"for us I have to spend political"},{"startTime":1618.788,"endTime":1622.788,"body":"capital in those pathological type of"},{"startTime":1622.788,"endTime":1626.678,"body":"organizations where psychological safety"},{"startTime":1622.788,"endTime":1626.678,"body":"is not a thing, but maybe I've carved"},{"startTime":1626.678,"endTime":1629.988,"body":"out this little agile transformation"},{"startTime":1626.678,"endTime":1629.988,"body":"with under a specific director"},{"startTime":1630.038,"endTime":1633.328,"body":"if you're in one of these organizations"},{"startTime":1630.038,"endTime":1633.328,"body":"where you're Agile in this corner of"},{"startTime":1633.328,"endTime":1638.238,"body":"the organization and then everyone else"},{"startTime":1633.328,"endTime":1638.238,"body":"is like whatever something else and"},{"startTime":1638.388,"endTime":1643.178,"body":"Whenever you are successful Everyone is"},{"startTime":1638.388,"endTime":1643.178,"body":"looking at you like hoping that you'll"},{"startTime":1643.178,"endTime":1646.228,"body":"fail  we did like arguing Agile 193"},{"startTime":1646.228,"endTime":1648.228,"body":"we outlined in different"},{"startTime":1646.228,"endTime":1648.228,"body":"types of organizations."},{"startTime":1648.318,"endTime":1649.768,"body":"It was a pathological."},{"startTime":1650.168,"endTime":1652.768,"body":"bureaucratic and like generative."},{"startTime":1652.888,"endTime":1654.788,"body":"I think those are the three"},{"startTime":1652.888,"endTime":1654.788,"body":"types of organizations."},{"startTime":1654.788,"endTime":1656.978,"body":"And there was a model that we outlined."},{"startTime":1657.028,"endTime":1660.358,"body":"But in those organizations your"},{"startTime":1657.028,"endTime":1660.358,"body":"communication, all that stuff is"},{"startTime":1660.358,"endTime":1664.538,"body":"not blocked by these processes or"},{"startTime":1660.358,"endTime":1664.538,"body":"the there's no, there's no borders."},{"startTime":1664.588,"endTime":1668.498,"body":"You can go anywhere to learn"},{"startTime":1664.588,"endTime":1668.498,"body":"any lesson that you need to."},{"startTime":1668.788,"endTime":1672.228,"body":"And in that environment, in that"},{"startTime":1668.788,"endTime":1672.228,"body":"kind of environment, that unbounded"},{"startTime":1672.228,"endTime":1676.968,"body":"environment, like collaboration"},{"startTime":1672.228,"endTime":1676.968,"body":"becomes a highly valued skill."},{"startTime":1677.248,"endTime":1680.788,"body":"Whereas like in a bureaucratic"},{"startTime":1677.248,"endTime":1680.788,"body":"organization  in order to get a release."},{"startTime":1681.253,"endTime":1681.873,"body":"Out of production."},{"startTime":1681.873,"endTime":1685.843,"body":"Like you got to open a ticket and"},{"startTime":1681.873,"endTime":1685.843,"body":"then the tickets got to go through a"},{"startTime":1685.843,"endTime":1690.713,"body":"certain team and what a nightmare, an"},{"startTime":1685.843,"endTime":1690.713,"body":"absolute nightmare just to get a normal"},{"startTime":1690.713,"endTime":1692.783,"body":"release that you have features in."},{"startTime":1693.033,"endTime":1694.383,"body":"Every fence that you build."},{"startTime":1694.633,"endTime":1696.683,"body":"Blocks psychological safety."},{"startTime":1696.983,"endTime":1700.283,"body":"I think what you're describing there"},{"startTime":1696.983,"endTime":1700.283,"body":"is what I like to term organizational"},{"startTime":1700.283,"endTime":1702.173,"body":"rigidity as opposed to agility."},{"startTime":1702.553,"endTime":1705.933,"body":"And there are many layers to it, like"},{"startTime":1702.553,"endTime":1705.933,"body":"some of the ones you mentioned, right?"},{"startTime":1706.333,"endTime":1709.903,"body":"In that example, you can think"},{"startTime":1706.333,"endTime":1709.903,"body":"of several layers on this."},{"startTime":1710.053,"endTime":1711.643,"body":"Someone has to approve the release."},{"startTime":1711.893,"endTime":1712.193,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1712.563,"endTime":1715.383,"body":"The team's not trusted to deliver,"},{"startTime":1712.563,"endTime":1715.383,"body":"right, what they've just built."},{"startTime":1715.593,"endTime":1718.503,"body":"So, yeah, this is quite"},{"startTime":1715.593,"endTime":1718.503,"body":"prevalent, unfortunately."},{"startTime":1718.623,"endTime":1721.493,"body":"What I described is like, well, we"},{"startTime":1718.623,"endTime":1721.493,"body":"have this little bubble of agility"},{"startTime":1721.653,"endTime":1724.833,"body":"inside of our program or inside of"},{"startTime":1721.653,"endTime":1724.833,"body":"our, group or under our director"},{"startTime":1724.833,"endTime":1726.113,"body":"I've observed that pretty regularly."},{"startTime":1726.363,"endTime":1729.593,"body":"You can have a really"},{"startTime":1726.363,"endTime":1729.593,"body":"well operating section."},{"startTime":1730.083,"endTime":1733.663,"body":"And then when that leader leaves, it"},{"startTime":1730.083,"endTime":1733.663,"body":"all kind of degrades I think everyone"},{"startTime":1733.663,"endTime":1737.503,"body":"listening to this podcast has experienced"},{"startTime":1733.663,"endTime":1737.503,"body":"something like that at some point."},{"startTime":1737.863,"endTime":1743.873,"body":"But like why that happens goes back"},{"startTime":1737.863,"endTime":1743.873,"body":"to our episode on Taylorism because"},{"startTime":1743.913,"endTime":1749.063,"body":"Taylorism is so ingrained in this idea"},{"startTime":1743.913,"endTime":1749.063,"body":"of like manufacturing that has been"},{"startTime":1749.063,"endTime":1750.723,"body":"brought into software development."},{"startTime":1751.183,"endTime":1754.423,"body":"There's kind of a fallacy at the,"},{"startTime":1751.183,"endTime":1754.423,"body":"honestly, I'm not even sure how"},{"startTime":1754.423,"endTime":1757.953,"body":"relevant Taylorism is to software"},{"startTime":1754.423,"endTime":1757.953,"body":"development at this point in my career."},{"startTime":1758.203,"endTime":1760.173,"body":"And we did a whole podcast, we"},{"startTime":1758.203,"endTime":1760.173,"body":"did a lot of research on this."},{"startTime":1760.173,"endTime":1763.093,"body":"And we talked about it ever since"},{"startTime":1760.173,"endTime":1763.093,"body":"episode, whatever, 62 or whatever it"},{"startTime":1763.093,"endTime":1767.293,"body":"was when we did Taylorism I've read more"},{"startTime":1763.093,"endTime":1767.293,"body":"about it, and, and honestly, up until"},{"startTime":1767.293,"endTime":1771.823,"body":"this point, I think like what you're"},{"startTime":1767.293,"endTime":1771.823,"body":"looking for for organizational design"},{"startTime":1771.823,"endTime":1776.933,"body":"and change is true leadership Right,"},{"startTime":1771.823,"endTime":1776.933,"body":"we can call it servant leadership."},{"startTime":1777.283,"endTime":1778.113,"body":"It's just leadership."},{"startTime":1778.113,"endTime":1778.953,"body":"It is leadership."},{"startTime":1779.013,"endTime":1782.323,"body":"I supposed to manage Taylorism"},{"startTime":1779.013,"endTime":1782.323,"body":"is the opposite of leadership."},{"startTime":1782.343,"endTime":1784.673,"body":"Taylorism is I will tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1784.873,"endTime":1787.988,"body":"Here is a list Don't ask me"},{"startTime":1784.873,"endTime":1787.988,"body":"questions . If you can't complete"},{"startTime":1787.998,"endTime":1790.588,"body":"the things on this list, you're gone."},{"startTime":1790.888,"endTime":1791.658,"body":"That is management."},{"startTime":1791.878,"endTime":1795.278,"body":"And then Taylor explained , a"},{"startTime":1791.878,"endTime":1795.278,"body":"disciplinarian and a timekeeper and"},{"startTime":1795.278,"endTime":1800.538,"body":"say management positions . But they're"},{"startTime":1795.278,"endTime":1800.538,"body":"really just like checklist positions that"},{"startTime":1800.538,"endTime":1806.148,"body":"are following a prescriptive plan and"},{"startTime":1800.538,"endTime":1806.148,"body":"that stuff, it really has very little"},{"startTime":1806.148,"endTime":1807.958,"body":"place in modern software development."},{"startTime":1808.058,"endTime":1808.788,"body":"That's very true."},{"startTime":1808.808,"endTime":1812.718,"body":"It doesn't have a place really, but"},{"startTime":1808.808,"endTime":1812.718,"body":"it's ingrained in our psyche very"},{"startTime":1812.718,"endTime":1817.078,"body":"well, and reward systems or at the"},{"startTime":1812.718,"endTime":1817.078,"body":"organizational level reflect that."},{"startTime":1817.378,"endTime":1822.318,"body":"So if you're one of those people who"},{"startTime":1817.378,"endTime":1822.318,"body":"is saying, okay, get the pig iron into"},{"startTime":1822.318,"endTime":1824.198,"body":"the train in less than 30 seconds."},{"startTime":1824.448,"endTime":1825.378,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":1825.378,"endTime":1826.668,"body":"If you can do that, great."},{"startTime":1826.728,"endTime":1830.028,"body":"Then you can go back to your manager"},{"startTime":1826.728,"endTime":1830.028,"body":"and say, if I can reduce that by"},{"startTime":1830.028,"endTime":1834.368,"body":"five seconds, we can get X number"},{"startTime":1830.028,"endTime":1834.368,"body":"of more big iron to the train."},{"startTime":1834.578,"endTime":1838.128,"body":"And you're rewarded on that . So"},{"startTime":1834.578,"endTime":1838.128,"body":"you're basically just trying to tell"},{"startTime":1838.128,"endTime":1842.208,"body":"your people that are working for you"},{"startTime":1838.128,"endTime":1842.208,"body":"work faster . Run harder , right."},{"startTime":1842.578,"endTime":1845.468,"body":"I mean, where do you start with"},{"startTime":1842.578,"endTime":1845.468,"body":"that in software development world?"},{"startTime":1845.468,"endTime":1850.648,"body":"First of all, in that situation,"},{"startTime":1845.468,"endTime":1850.648,"body":"I'm only ever going to hire men"},{"startTime":1850.898,"endTime":1853.718,"body":"because I assume they're the only"},{"startTime":1850.898,"endTime":1853.718,"body":"ones physically capable of picking"},{"startTime":1853.718,"endTime":1855.888,"body":"up, that weight of pig iron, right?"},{"startTime":1856.218,"endTime":1857.378,"body":"To deliver it in time."},{"startTime":1857.628,"endTime":1861.498,"body":"And then probably only men in"},{"startTime":1857.628,"endTime":1861.498,"body":"a certain age range with, a"},{"startTime":1861.498,"endTime":1862.578,"body":"lack of certain disabilities."},{"startTime":1862.588,"endTime":1864.198,"body":"So I'm honing down the market."},{"startTime":1864.578,"endTime":1869.458,"body":"There's a harsh worldview when it"},{"startTime":1864.578,"endTime":1869.458,"body":"comes to honing yourself down to that,"},{"startTime":1869.738,"endTime":1872.248,"body":"that really cuts out a lot of talent."},{"startTime":1872.548,"endTime":1875.258,"body":"Like if you apply the same look."},{"startTime":1875.508,"endTime":1879.688,"body":"At software development, which probably"},{"startTime":1875.508,"endTime":1879.688,"body":"could be another podcast you really"},{"startTime":1879.688,"endTime":1885.388,"body":"get like, a nearly cynical view of"},{"startTime":1879.688,"endTime":1885.388,"body":"like, Oh, we only hire 10 X developers."},{"startTime":1885.578,"endTime":1887.268,"body":"What does 10 X developers mean to you?"},{"startTime":1887.308,"endTime":1889.458,"body":"Does that mean people willing"},{"startTime":1887.308,"endTime":1889.458,"body":"to work on the weekends?"},{"startTime":1889.708,"endTime":1892.238,"body":"People willing to not take vacation."},{"startTime":1892.238,"endTime":1892.838,"body":"People willing to."},{"startTime":1893.253,"endTime":1896.333,"body":"be a slave to their phone , when a"},{"startTime":1893.253,"endTime":1896.333,"body":"system alert blows up, whatever it's"},{"startTime":1896.333,"endTime":1898.503,"body":"like, what, what does 10 X mean to you?"},{"startTime":1898.763,"endTime":1901.783,"body":"it's there's some stories I could tell"},{"startTime":1898.763,"endTime":1901.783,"body":"here, but I like it for the purpose"},{"startTime":1901.783,"endTime":1904.083,"body":"of like getting through all this"},{"startTime":1901.783,"endTime":1904.083,"body":"stuff I want to get through today."},{"startTime":1904.363,"endTime":1909.553,"body":"I'm not going to, but it's not that"},{"startTime":1904.363,"endTime":1909.553,"body":"far from the Taylorism kind of view."},{"startTime":1909.553,"endTime":1915.073,"body":"In the era of Taylorism, in like 1914,"},{"startTime":1909.553,"endTime":1915.073,"body":"1920, or whatever there was a lot of"},{"startTime":1915.073,"endTime":1920.113,"body":"workers, potentially, and they were very"},{"startTime":1915.073,"endTime":1920.113,"body":"poor, uneducated, and they were dime a"},{"startTime":1920.113,"endTime":1923.403,"body":"dozen, basically . They could physically"},{"startTime":1920.113,"endTime":1923.403,"body":"do the work that you told them to do,"},{"startTime":1923.673,"endTime":1928.263,"body":"they didn't participate in training, or"},{"startTime":1923.673,"endTime":1928.263,"body":"understanding, or reducing ambiguity."},{"startTime":1928.423,"endTime":1928.813,"body":"the."},{"startTime":1929.183,"endTime":1933.963,"body":"Business owner really felt that it"},{"startTime":1929.183,"endTime":1933.963,"body":"was on them to incur the cost of"},{"startTime":1933.963,"endTime":1937.783,"body":"figuring out the best way to do the"},{"startTime":1933.963,"endTime":1937.783,"body":"work in the modern way of working."},{"startTime":1937.783,"endTime":1940.563,"body":"It's completely opposite."},{"startTime":1940.623,"endTime":1945.383,"body":"The worker figures out how to reduce the"},{"startTime":1940.623,"endTime":1945.383,"body":"ambiguity and it's not the business owner."},{"startTime":1945.683,"endTime":1948.983,"body":"companies that are adopting this"},{"startTime":1945.683,"endTime":1948.983,"body":"way of working are the ones that"},{"startTime":1948.983,"endTime":1950.543,"body":"are really leapfrogging the others."},{"startTime":1950.613,"endTime":1951.683,"body":"You can see that out there."},{"startTime":1951.933,"endTime":1955.583,"body":"The hard part about this is"},{"startTime":1951.933,"endTime":1955.583,"body":"everything we just talked about today."},{"startTime":1955.833,"endTime":1959.893,"body":"Sometimes the best person for"},{"startTime":1955.833,"endTime":1959.893,"body":"the job, sometimes they are  not"},{"startTime":1959.893,"endTime":1961.203,"body":"the person to get the job."},{"startTime":1961.223,"endTime":1963.823,"body":"And then again, this goes back to"},{"startTime":1961.223,"endTime":1963.823,"body":"things that I've seen in my career."},{"startTime":1963.823,"endTime":1965.738,"body":"and even as a hiring manager like."},{"startTime":1965.918,"endTime":1969.458,"body":"I interview people like they're,"},{"startTime":1965.918,"endTime":1969.458,"body":"they're very, very smart people, but"},{"startTime":1969.458,"endTime":1974.078,"body":"they got real bad soft skills like"},{"startTime":1969.458,"endTime":1974.078,"body":"they've completely underdeveloped."},{"startTime":1974.328,"endTime":1978.108,"body":"The people that can build networks,"},{"startTime":1974.328,"endTime":1978.108,"body":"like kind of automatically,"},{"startTime":1978.118,"endTime":1978.508,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1978.508,"endTime":1982.888,"body":"They'd be like, they can become likable"},{"startTime":1978.508,"endTime":1982.888,"body":"to the customers, the service and kind of"},{"startTime":1982.888,"endTime":1988.148,"body":"like have constant interaction I'll give"},{"startTime":1982.888,"endTime":1988.148,"body":"you an example of like when you go to"},{"startTime":1988.148,"endTime":1991.818,"body":"networking events, for example, sometimes"},{"startTime":1988.148,"endTime":1991.818,"body":"you talk to people at networking events"},{"startTime":1991.828,"endTime":1996.313,"body":"and like, they hit you up on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":1991.828,"endTime":1996.313,"body":"afterwards or they comment on some YouTube"},{"startTime":1996.313,"endTime":1999.053,"body":"videos or the podcast, because we do"},{"startTime":1996.313,"endTime":1999.053,"body":"this all the time in networking, right?"},{"startTime":1999.373,"endTime":2002.413,"body":"Like I talked to someone about"},{"startTime":1999.373,"endTime":2002.413,"body":"the podcast or I talked to someone"},{"startTime":2002.423,"endTime":2005.403,"body":"about my experience  and then they"},{"startTime":2002.423,"endTime":2005.403,"body":"hit me up on LinkedIn afterwards."},{"startTime":2005.443,"endTime":2008.813,"body":"And then we just start talking and  we"},{"startTime":2005.443,"endTime":2008.813,"body":"kind of get to know each other like that,"},{"startTime":2008.823,"endTime":2011.573,"body":"that picking up of our personal contact."},{"startTime":2011.823,"endTime":2013.123,"body":"That right there is a skill."},{"startTime":2013.373,"endTime":2015.933,"body":"There's the idea of like the meritocracy."},{"startTime":2015.933,"endTime":2019.153,"body":"If you do just do great work,"},{"startTime":2015.933,"endTime":2019.153,"body":"if you're a 10X developer."},{"startTime":2019.648,"endTime":2021.038,"body":"You'll rise to the top or whatever."},{"startTime":2021.358,"endTime":2021.908,"body":"In my career."},{"startTime":2021.928,"endTime":2023.148,"body":"I don't think any of that's true"},{"startTime":2023.278,"endTime":2024.548,"body":"i'm gonna make some claims here, right?"},{"startTime":2024.738,"endTime":2029.038,"body":"The best person for the job rarely"},{"startTime":2024.738,"endTime":2029.038,"body":"gets a job and I think that your"},{"startTime":2029.403,"endTime":2031.693,"body":"Ability to network your network."},{"startTime":2031.943,"endTime":2035.773,"body":"So your ability to network and your"},{"startTime":2031.943,"endTime":2035.773,"body":"actual time put in the network, your"},{"startTime":2035.773,"endTime":2040.003,"body":"network and your proximity to the"},{"startTime":2035.773,"endTime":2040.003,"body":"people in your network, meaning how"},{"startTime":2040.043,"endTime":2042.833,"body":"often you're contacting them and"},{"startTime":2040.043,"endTime":2042.833,"body":"staying in touch, stuff like that."},{"startTime":2043.083,"endTime":2048.233,"body":"I think that is more important than your"},{"startTime":2043.083,"endTime":2048.233,"body":"individual capacity to do great work."},{"startTime":2048.483,"endTime":2050.743,"body":"And that's that, listen, even saying it."},{"startTime":2051.103,"endTime":2052.113,"body":"I feel dirty."},{"startTime":2052.373,"endTime":2057.203,"body":"It's rough to come into the understanding"},{"startTime":2052.373,"endTime":2057.203,"body":"of like, like 50 percent of it is your"},{"startTime":2057.203,"endTime":2062.063,"body":"ability to network 50 percent of it"},{"startTime":2057.203,"endTime":2062.063,"body":"is your ability to do good work and"},{"startTime":2062.063,"endTime":2067.903,"body":"you're, and you would say like, well,"},{"startTime":2062.063,"endTime":2067.903,"body":"Brian, I do better work than anybody."},{"startTime":2068.103,"endTime":2071.723,"body":"And I'll say, yeah, that's true,"},{"startTime":2068.103,"endTime":2071.723,"body":"but  you're doing great development,"},{"startTime":2071.723,"endTime":2072.673,"body":"but nobody knows about it."},{"startTime":2072.973,"endTime":2077.753,"body":"You're building a great product"},{"startTime":2072.973,"endTime":2077.753,"body":"that nobody knows about you know"},{"startTime":2077.753,"endTime":2083.133,"body":"how to do the work, but that's not"},{"startTime":2077.753,"endTime":2083.133,"body":"where the deficiency is and that's"},{"startTime":2083.143,"endTime":2084.763,"body":"difficult for people to hear."},{"startTime":2085.013,"endTime":2089.313,"body":"It's difficult to explain to"},{"startTime":2085.013,"endTime":2089.313,"body":"people and it's difficult to try"},{"startTime":2089.313,"endTime":2091.303,"body":"to help people get better at it."},{"startTime":2091.613,"endTime":2096.153,"body":"Somehow the organization is going to find"},{"startTime":2091.613,"endTime":2096.153,"body":"a way to enable individuals to develop"},{"startTime":2096.503,"endTime":2098.963,"body":"their soft skills, because guess what?"},{"startTime":2099.263,"endTime":2101.383,"body":"You don't take a class in school on that."},{"startTime":2101.633,"endTime":2102.353,"body":"You just don't."},{"startTime":2102.643,"endTime":2106.013,"body":"I mean, I don't recall doing that"},{"startTime":2102.643,"endTime":2106.013,"body":"exactly, but that's what you need"},{"startTime":2106.023,"endTime":2108.103,"body":"to survive in today's world, right?"},{"startTime":2108.353,"endTime":2110.243,"body":"So there's a huge gap right there."},{"startTime":2110.513,"endTime":2113.133,"body":"You know, we're churning out all"},{"startTime":2110.513,"endTime":2113.133,"body":"these people, these graduates,"},{"startTime":2113.133,"endTime":2114.683,"body":"but they don't have soft skills."},{"startTime":2114.843,"endTime":2118.023,"body":"Now, of course, some of them"},{"startTime":2114.843,"endTime":2118.023,"body":"already have them, or some of them"},{"startTime":2118.023,"endTime":2119.343,"body":"will develop them pretty quickly."},{"startTime":2119.633,"endTime":2122.893,"body":"And those are the people that"},{"startTime":2119.633,"endTime":2122.893,"body":"will rise above the others."},{"startTime":2122.943,"endTime":2123.213,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2123.513,"endTime":2124.633,"body":"I brought this category up."},{"startTime":2124.633,"endTime":2128.513,"body":"I wrote this down as a, as a note for"},{"startTime":2124.633,"endTime":2128.513,"body":"us to talk about because the idea of"},{"startTime":2128.513,"endTime":2131.233,"body":"like, Oh, you just got to hustle culture."},{"startTime":2131.233,"endTime":2132.893,"body":"Oh, you just got to grind more."},{"startTime":2132.893,"endTime":2133.743,"body":"You just got to do more work."},{"startTime":2133.993,"endTime":2137.813,"body":"A lot of tech leads specifically"},{"startTime":2133.993,"endTime":2137.813,"body":"that I've worked with."},{"startTime":2137.813,"endTime":2142.393,"body":"They work 60 plus hours and"},{"startTime":2137.813,"endTime":2142.393,"body":"they still don't make a dent."},{"startTime":2142.743,"endTime":2145.563,"body":"the organization still feels"},{"startTime":2142.743,"endTime":2145.563,"body":"like we're moving too slow."},{"startTime":2145.813,"endTime":2149.743,"body":"What are you as a tech lead doing to"},{"startTime":2145.813,"endTime":2149.743,"body":"impress upon these folks that are running"},{"startTime":2149.743,"endTime":2154.463,"body":"with the organization of like, if you"},{"startTime":2149.743,"endTime":2154.463,"body":"want this amount of speed, these are the"},{"startTime":2154.463,"endTime":2156.243,"body":"organizational changes you need to make."},{"startTime":2156.453,"endTime":2160.413,"body":"Organizational design as a"},{"startTime":2156.453,"endTime":2160.413,"body":"tool, in addition to all the"},{"startTime":2160.413,"endTime":2161.703,"body":"traditional tools that we have."},{"startTime":2161.953,"endTime":2162.173,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2162.173,"endTime":2163.853,"body":"I mean, some organizations."},{"startTime":2164.073,"endTime":2167.603,"body":"Quite a few actually,  will not"},{"startTime":2164.073,"endTime":2167.603,"body":"even welcome that kind of feedback"},{"startTime":2167.603,"endTime":2170.513,"body":"from tech leads and they'll be"},{"startTime":2167.603,"endTime":2170.513,"body":"told, stay in your lane, stay in"},{"startTime":2170.513,"endTime":2171.903,"body":"your lane, do your job, right?"},{"startTime":2171.953,"endTime":2177.603,"body":"The soft skills are  the make or"},{"startTime":2171.953,"endTime":2177.603,"body":"break switch in this category to"},{"startTime":2177.603,"endTime":2179.783,"body":"where when you're bringing these"},{"startTime":2177.603,"endTime":2179.783,"body":"things up, like I understand,"},{"startTime":2179.803,"endTime":2181.413,"body":"where you want to go in the future."},{"startTime":2181.663,"endTime":2185.583,"body":"Here's how to get there, here's"},{"startTime":2181.663,"endTime":2185.583,"body":"the variables we need to get there."},{"startTime":2186.023,"endTime":2188.813,"body":"Like, I feel when you paint that"},{"startTime":2186.023,"endTime":2188.813,"body":"it's a whole different conversation."},{"startTime":2189.233,"endTime":2193.573,"body":"But it requires a specific skill to"},{"startTime":2189.233,"endTime":2193.573,"body":"be able to bring that up in a way"},{"startTime":2193.573,"endTime":2194.993,"body":"that leadership will perceive that."},{"startTime":2195.243,"endTime":2198.883,"body":"I agree, and part of the parcel"},{"startTime":2195.243,"endTime":2198.883,"body":"of that skill set is also"},{"startTime":2198.913,"endTime":2200.403,"body":"leading by example, right?"},{"startTime":2200.763,"endTime":2203.413,"body":"I'm asking you to change,"},{"startTime":2200.763,"endTime":2203.413,"body":"but I'm gonna change."},{"startTime":2203.693,"endTime":2204.753,"body":"So, that's one."},{"startTime":2205.058,"endTime":2207.728,"body":"And, and again, the other side"},{"startTime":2205.058,"endTime":2207.728,"body":"of that coin is being vulnerable"},{"startTime":2207.728,"endTime":2210.398,"body":"that this may fail and that's"},{"startTime":2207.728,"endTime":2210.398,"body":"okay . You learn from that."},{"startTime":2210.648,"endTime":2214.128,"body":"in this example, I just outlined,"},{"startTime":2210.648,"endTime":2214.128,"body":"I put the tech lead in that role."},{"startTime":2214.378,"endTime":2217.348,"body":"It very easily could be a product"},{"startTime":2214.378,"endTime":2217.348,"body":"manager or a lead product manager,"},{"startTime":2217.348,"endTime":2218.668,"body":"a senior product manager,  to say."},{"startTime":2218.978,"endTime":2220.968,"body":"This is what the future could look like."},{"startTime":2221.218,"endTime":2222.768,"body":"Should we make these changes?"},{"startTime":2223.208,"endTime":2224.428,"body":"It could even be a scrum master."},{"startTime":2224.438,"endTime":2227.838,"body":"So I've seen so many scrum masters"},{"startTime":2224.438,"endTime":2227.838,"body":"that are just doing it by the book."},{"startTime":2228.028,"endTime":2229.838,"body":"it should be the scrum master."},{"startTime":2229.888,"endTime":2233.698,"body":"Their role is a challenge"},{"startTime":2229.888,"endTime":2233.698,"body":"agent to the organization."},{"startTime":2233.718,"endTime":2234.918,"body":"It's a change agent."},{"startTime":2235.288,"endTime":2236.108,"body":"Organizationally."},{"startTime":2236.358,"endTime":2241.668,"body":"And they should be constantly seeking"},{"startTime":2236.358,"endTime":2241.668,"body":"to improve organizational design to"},{"startTime":2241.708,"endTime":2243.388,"body":"help the teams and enable the teams."},{"startTime":2243.688,"endTime":2247.958,"body":"Very few scrum masters are aligned"},{"startTime":2243.688,"endTime":2247.958,"body":"to make organizational impact."},{"startTime":2248.208,"endTime":2250.458,"body":"So going back to just"},{"startTime":2248.208,"endTime":2250.458,"body":"really quickly, right?"},{"startTime":2250.848,"endTime":2256.618,"body":"If you're a product owner, a Scrum Master"},{"startTime":2250.848,"endTime":2256.618,"body":"or whatever, and you just bring those core"},{"startTime":2256.618,"endTime":2261.688,"body":"skills for the job . So when I say that, I"},{"startTime":2256.618,"endTime":2261.688,"body":"mean, Scrum Master is a good facilitator."},{"startTime":2261.698,"endTime":2261.918,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2262.288,"endTime":2262.598,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2262.608,"endTime":2264.288,"body":"They need to be, but that's about it."},{"startTime":2264.318,"endTime":2266.778,"body":"They recognize that"},{"startTime":2264.318,"endTime":2266.778,"body":"there's an organizational"},{"startTime":2267.148,"endTime":2269.028,"body":"deficiency in the structure."},{"startTime":2269.498,"endTime":2273.308,"body":"And either they, they don't have"},{"startTime":2269.498,"endTime":2273.308,"body":"the wherewithall to even sense"},{"startTime":2273.338,"endTime":2278.438,"body":"that, or they don't have the"},{"startTime":2273.338,"endTime":2278.438,"body":"gumption to go up to management"},{"startTime":2278.438,"endTime":2279.838,"body":"and say that we need to change this"},{"startTime":2280.118,"endTime":2284.803,"body":"."},{"startTime":2280.118,"endTime":2284.803,"body":"Or worse yet, they don't even know"},{"startTime":2285.143,"endTime":2286.133,"body":"Like I'm a scrum master."},{"startTime":2286.133,"endTime":2287.033,"body":"I work with a team."},{"startTime":2287.473,"endTime":2289.213,"body":"No, you don't."},{"startTime":2289.303,"endTime":2291.713,"body":"Even the scrum guide says you're"},{"startTime":2289.303,"endTime":2291.713,"body":"not restricted to your team."},{"startTime":2291.713,"endTime":2294.753,"body":"You coach the team, you coach the"},{"startTime":2291.713,"endTime":2294.753,"body":"product, coach the organization."},{"startTime":2294.753,"endTime":2296.123,"body":"What does that last piece mean?"},{"startTime":2296.373,"endTime":2298.593,"body":"So I've seen that way too often."},{"startTime":2298.603,"endTime":2302.653,"body":"The scrum masters will just simply go back"},{"startTime":2298.603,"endTime":2302.653,"body":"down into their shells work with the team."},{"startTime":2302.903,"endTime":2303.623,"body":"Stay quiet."},{"startTime":2303.873,"endTime":2307.453,"body":"Those are the ones that don't really"},{"startTime":2303.873,"endTime":2307.453,"body":"bring any value in the long run."},{"startTime":2307.743,"endTime":2311.213,"body":"I dug into this category because"},{"startTime":2307.743,"endTime":2311.213,"body":"I wanted to talk about strategy."},{"startTime":2311.463,"endTime":2315.623,"body":"And the more advanced I become"},{"startTime":2311.463,"endTime":2315.623,"body":"as a product manager, I realized"},{"startTime":2315.623,"endTime":2318.133,"body":"that organizations are really"},{"startTime":2318.353,"endTime":2324.103,"body":"comically bad as strategy strategy is"},{"startTime":2318.353,"endTime":2324.103,"body":"like your whole organization, all your"},{"startTime":2324.103,"endTime":2327.723,"body":"teams together,  And if they're not"},{"startTime":2324.103,"endTime":2327.723,"body":"trying to, to achieve one thing, they're"},{"startTime":2327.723,"endTime":2332.843,"body":"basically achieving nothing, but you need"},{"startTime":2327.723,"endTime":2332.843,"body":"one cohesive strategy and a leader in the"},{"startTime":2332.843,"endTime":2334.633,"body":"organization needs to set that strategy."},{"startTime":2334.753,"endTime":2335.023,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2335.363,"endTime":2336.973,"body":"Sometimes you can be set by a panel."},{"startTime":2337.083,"endTime":2338.793,"body":"Sure, this is not the podcast."},{"startTime":2338.793,"endTime":2340.203,"body":"I'm trying to tell you"},{"startTime":2338.793,"endTime":2340.203,"body":"how to set a strategy."},{"startTime":2340.203,"endTime":2343.143,"body":"We had a whole podcast, we"},{"startTime":2340.203,"endTime":2343.143,"body":"had two actually back to back"},{"startTime":2343.443,"endTime":2344.513,"body":"where we talked about strategy."},{"startTime":2345.013,"endTime":2348.173,"body":"But a vision without a"},{"startTime":2345.013,"endTime":2348.173,"body":"narrative of how to get there."},{"startTime":2348.173,"endTime":2349.593,"body":"Like Oh, we want to do this."},{"startTime":2349.593,"endTime":2355.863,"body":"So by what method,  the Deming question"},{"startTime":2349.593,"endTime":2355.863,"body":"was by what method do you want to do that?"},{"startTime":2355.983,"endTime":2357.733,"body":"Like, Oh, we want to sell more cars."},{"startTime":2357.833,"endTime":2358.353,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2358.403,"endTime":2358.893,"body":"We'll just."},{"startTime":2359.193,"endTime":2362.823,"body":"Discount all of our prices where we"},{"startTime":2359.193,"endTime":2362.823,"body":"don't make any money anymore as a company"},{"startTime":2362.823,"endTime":2364.043,"body":"and then we'll sell a lot of cars."},{"startTime":2364.193,"endTime":2365.233,"body":"Well, that's not a great method."},{"startTime":2365.403,"endTime":2367.293,"body":"like we want to get some"},{"startTime":2365.403,"endTime":2367.293,"body":"out of development faster."},{"startTime":2367.393,"endTime":2367.653,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2367.653,"endTime":2371.173,"body":"We'll just fire all QA people and we'll"},{"startTime":2367.653,"endTime":2371.173,"body":"just send stuff straight to production."},{"startTime":2371.243,"endTime":2376.638,"body":"Making strategic plans and having"},{"startTime":2371.243,"endTime":2376.638,"body":"leadership behind the creation of"},{"startTime":2376.878,"endTime":2383.148,"body":"strategic plans, having a strategy as a"},{"startTime":2376.878,"endTime":2383.148,"body":"company that all your teams understand and"},{"startTime":2383.148,"endTime":2388.718,"body":"talk about and develop together that is"},{"startTime":2383.148,"endTime":2388.718,"body":"woefully deficient in corporate America."},{"startTime":2388.738,"endTime":2392.748,"body":"I can count on one hand the number of"},{"startTime":2388.738,"endTime":2392.748,"body":"companies I've worked with or worked for."},{"startTime":2392.748,"endTime":2394.778,"body":"Write their strategies down . Exactly."},{"startTime":2394.778,"endTime":2396.788,"body":". The ones that are flying"},{"startTime":2394.778,"endTime":2396.788,"body":"through are doing it right."},{"startTime":2396.908,"endTime":2400.848,"body":"The way you just described but for the"},{"startTime":2396.908,"endTime":2400.848,"body":"majority of 'em, they're not flying"},{"startTime":2400.848,"endTime":2401.688,"body":"through, they're muddling through."},{"startTime":2401.688,"endTime":2406.608,"body":"Most companies the clear driving"},{"startTime":2401.688,"endTime":2406.608,"body":"vision of what the future looks like"},{"startTime":2406.608,"endTime":2410.838,"body":"when we accomplish whatever our goal"},{"startTime":2406.608,"endTime":2410.838,"body":"is, that is you normally missing"},{"startTime":2411.018,"endTime":2413.218,"body":"we did a whole podcast, so I don't"},{"startTime":2411.018,"endTime":2413.218,"body":"want to rehash a lot of stuff like"},{"startTime":2413.218,"endTime":2416.748,"body":"that, regardless of how you feel"},{"startTime":2413.218,"endTime":2416.748,"body":"about Tesla, the idea of like we"},{"startTime":2416.748,"endTime":2420.458,"body":"want to build, we want to build the"},{"startTime":2416.748,"endTime":2420.458,"body":"next generation electric vehicle."},{"startTime":2420.458,"endTime":2423.258,"body":"We want the whole world to"},{"startTime":2420.458,"endTime":2423.258,"body":"run on sustainable electricity"},{"startTime":2423.518,"endTime":2425.148,"body":"with their vehicles, right?"},{"startTime":2425.178,"endTime":2426.688,"body":"It's not exactly that,"},{"startTime":2425.178,"endTime":2426.688,"body":"but it's close to that."},{"startTime":2427.048,"endTime":2427.718,"body":"How are we going to do that?"},{"startTime":2427.718,"endTime":2431.318,"body":"Well, in order to move the world"},{"startTime":2427.718,"endTime":2431.318,"body":"towards In their vehicles, we're"},{"startTime":2431.318,"endTime":2437.498,"body":"going to produce a high end roadster,"},{"startTime":2431.318,"endTime":2437.498,"body":"huge margins  and then when you use a"},{"startTime":2437.498,"endTime":2440.068,"body":"margin money from that to enable us."},{"startTime":2440.318,"endTime":2444.738,"body":"To build a entry level vehicle,"},{"startTime":2440.318,"endTime":2444.738,"body":"well, maybe not, but like a mid mid"},{"startTime":2444.738,"endTime":2448.158,"body":"level view of normal, normal people"},{"startTime":2444.738,"endTime":2448.158,"body":"can buy like a little expensive,"},{"startTime":2448.158,"endTime":2449.808,"body":"but normal, normal people could buy."},{"startTime":2450.288,"endTime":2451.488,"body":"And like, that was a strategy."},{"startTime":2451.488,"endTime":2453.888,"body":"The strategy was we're going"},{"startTime":2451.488,"endTime":2453.888,"body":"to build a super high end,"},{"startTime":2453.938,"endTime":2456.428,"body":"ridiculous car of a roadster."},{"startTime":2456.478,"endTime":2460.868,"body":"And once it's profitable, we'll keep"},{"startTime":2456.478,"endTime":2460.868,"body":"the team and that product line running."},{"startTime":2461.353,"endTime":2466.203,"body":"We'll move it over here and the profits"},{"startTime":2461.353,"endTime":2466.203,"body":"from that we'll use to really scale out."},{"startTime":2466.683,"endTime":2469.373,"body":"Those are two different strategies, right?"},{"startTime":2469.373,"endTime":2470.493,"body":"One strategy at a time."},{"startTime":2470.743,"endTime":2473.583,"body":"They only did the second strategy"},{"startTime":2470.743,"endTime":2473.583,"body":"after the first one was successful."},{"startTime":2473.883,"endTime":2476.743,"body":"most companies don't even"},{"startTime":2473.883,"endTime":2476.743,"body":"have that level of planning."},{"startTime":2476.753,"endTime":2479.953,"body":"They're just like, they're saying"},{"startTime":2476.753,"endTime":2479.953,"body":"yes to any money that comes in the"},{"startTime":2479.953,"endTime":2481.543,"body":"door, no matter how they can get it."},{"startTime":2481.543,"endTime":2485.013,"body":"the executives will tell you like,"},{"startTime":2481.543,"endTime":2485.013,"body":"well, listen we got this plan, we"},{"startTime":2485.013,"endTime":2488.703,"body":"got whatever, but in reality, like"},{"startTime":2485.013,"endTime":2488.703,"body":"they don't really have a strategy."},{"startTime":2489.083,"endTime":2489.813,"body":"They're just saying yes."},{"startTime":2490.063,"endTime":2492.143,"body":"To the low hanging fruit."},{"startTime":2492.153,"endTime":2495.463,"body":"They have a hope and a prayer"},{"startTime":2492.153,"endTime":2495.463,"body":"basically is what it boils down to"},{"startTime":2495.473,"endTime":2495.773,"body":"."},{"startTime":2495.473,"endTime":2495.773,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2495.933,"endTime":2497.653,"body":"Yeah, I absolutely agree with that."},{"startTime":2497.903,"endTime":2500.393,"body":"Again, you can count on one"},{"startTime":2497.903,"endTime":2500.393,"body":"hand, the number of companies"},{"startTime":2500.393,"endTime":2502.263,"body":"that do this the right way."},{"startTime":2502.513,"endTime":2502.763,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2502.813,"endTime":2506.283,"body":"I believe both of these one Oh three"},{"startTime":2502.813,"endTime":2506.283,"body":"and one Oh four, but mainly one Oh four."},{"startTime":2506.783,"endTime":2509.033,"body":"We talked about creating"},{"startTime":2506.783,"endTime":2509.033,"body":"a mission vision strategy."},{"startTime":2509.033,"endTime":2513.473,"body":"We had the pyramid of strategies and"},{"startTime":2509.033,"endTime":2513.473,"body":"whatnot of mission vision strategy."},{"startTime":2513.943,"endTime":2514.973,"body":"And we talked about it,"},{"startTime":2514.973,"endTime":2520.413,"body":"but so like when you write them down and"},{"startTime":2514.973,"endTime":2520.413,"body":"you commit to like everything that you"},{"startTime":2520.433,"endTime":2524.393,"body":"implement, every feature you implement"},{"startTime":2520.433,"endTime":2524.393,"body":"is in line with one of the strategies."},{"startTime":2524.643,"endTime":2528.213,"body":"Hopefully you have one strategy,"},{"startTime":2524.643,"endTime":2528.213,"body":"where I want to wrap this podcast"},{"startTime":2528.223,"endTime":2530.543,"body":"is very few people understand."},{"startTime":2530.868,"endTime":2536.728,"body":"What strategy is it's an effective mission"},{"startTime":2530.868,"endTime":2536.728,"body":"and vision strategy is the form of how"},{"startTime":2536.728,"endTime":2539.318,"body":"are we going to do the two above, right?"},{"startTime":2539.438,"endTime":2539.898,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2540.148,"endTime":2544.338,"body":"And , if you're bold enough to write down,"},{"startTime":2540.148,"endTime":2544.338,"body":"this is what we're currently trying to do."},{"startTime":2544.588,"endTime":2547.598,"body":"Maybe the metrics don't stack up or"},{"startTime":2544.588,"endTime":2547.598,"body":"whatever, but at least you have something"},{"startTime":2547.598,"endTime":2549.128,"body":"that you can show to all your teams."},{"startTime":2549.413,"endTime":2551.793,"body":"On a slideshow, your company"},{"startTime":2549.413,"endTime":2551.793,"body":"meeting once a quarter or whatever,"},{"startTime":2551.793,"endTime":2553.463,"body":"like this is still our strategy."},{"startTime":2553.713,"endTime":2555.823,"body":"This is how it supports our vision."},{"startTime":2556.193,"endTime":2558.403,"body":"And this is how our vision"},{"startTime":2556.193,"endTime":2558.403,"body":"supports our mission."},{"startTime":2558.733,"endTime":2560.743,"body":"And you just brought everyone in line."},{"startTime":2560.983,"endTime":2564.193,"body":"It's shocking the amount of people"},{"startTime":2560.983,"endTime":2564.193,"body":"like number one, can't do that."},{"startTime":2564.443,"endTime":2566.123,"body":"number two, that it just doesn't happen."},{"startTime":2566.123,"endTime":2566.813,"body":"it's shocking."},{"startTime":2566.863,"endTime":2570.573,"body":"It doesn't happen, but if it did,"},{"startTime":2566.863,"endTime":2570.573,"body":"it would provide that sharp focus"},{"startTime":2570.573,"endTime":2574.083,"body":"that everybody needs . And you"},{"startTime":2570.573,"endTime":2574.083,"body":"keep repeating that periodically,"},{"startTime":2574.103,"endTime":2575.583,"body":"maybe at the quarterly, whatever."},{"startTime":2576.003,"endTime":2578.903,"body":"That's the way the teams can stay"},{"startTime":2576.003,"endTime":2578.903,"body":"focused because there are way too"},{"startTime":2578.903,"endTime":2580.233,"body":"many distractions to begin with."},{"startTime":2580.273,"endTime":2581.103,"body":"But yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2581.173,"endTime":2583.363,"body":"I mean, that's so that requires"},{"startTime":2581.173,"endTime":2583.363,"body":"true leadership though."},{"startTime":2583.423,"endTime":2586.233,"body":"It requires leadership"},{"startTime":2583.423,"endTime":2586.233,"body":"than the suggestion here."},{"startTime":2586.483,"endTime":2590.903,"body":"For people listening the ability"},{"startTime":2586.483,"endTime":2590.903,"body":"for you as a business leader to"},{"startTime":2590.903,"endTime":2594.803,"body":"craft that narrative, if you can"},{"startTime":2590.903,"endTime":2594.803,"body":"do that, whether you're a developer"},{"startTime":2594.803,"endTime":2597.883,"body":"on the team, Oh, we're doing this"},{"startTime":2594.803,"endTime":2597.883,"body":"because whatever you're at a sprint"},{"startTime":2597.883,"endTime":2600.093,"body":"review, lay the narrative out, right?"},{"startTime":2600.193,"endTime":2601.433,"body":"you might be talking high level."},{"startTime":2601.843,"endTime":2606.523,"body":"Yeah Oh, Brian stop talking about like"},{"startTime":2601.843,"endTime":2606.523,"body":"how we're going to dominate the market"},{"startTime":2606.533,"endTime":2610.033,"body":"by being the quickest to iterate on"},{"startTime":2606.533,"endTime":2610.033,"body":"our payment tech, whatever just show"},{"startTime":2610.033,"endTime":2614.503,"body":"me that, that you made the checkbox"},{"startTime":2610.033,"endTime":2614.503,"body":"default zero to instead of default one"},{"startTime":2614.503,"endTime":2619.563,"body":"or whatever yeah, but also like, it's"},{"startTime":2614.503,"endTime":2619.563,"body":"important for us to state the high"},{"startTime":2619.563,"endTime":2623.523,"body":"level thing that we're all trying to"},{"startTime":2619.563,"endTime":2623.523,"body":"do let's, let's, let's build that in"},{"startTime":2623.523,"endTime":2627.223,"body":"let's, let's make that part of what"},{"startTime":2623.523,"endTime":2627.223,"body":"we're, we, part of a shared understanding"},{"startTime":2627.233,"endTime":2631.073,"body":"and, I would rather people tell me,"},{"startTime":2627.233,"endTime":2631.073,"body":"Brian, we all know what the shared"},{"startTime":2631.073,"endTime":2632.803,"body":"understanding is Skip over this part."},{"startTime":2633.053,"endTime":2636.373,"body":"I'd rather that be the feedback"},{"startTime":2633.053,"endTime":2636.373,"body":"other than like, Brian, what, how"},{"startTime":2636.373,"endTime":2638.093,"body":"does this roll into the big picture?"},{"startTime":2638.563,"endTime":2642.743,"body":"How does this help sell widgets"},{"startTime":2638.563,"endTime":2642.743,"body":"on the internet or whatever?"},{"startTime":2642.743,"endTime":2646.703,"body":"Like, yeah, I unfortunately"},{"startTime":2642.743,"endTime":2646.703,"body":"don't see that very often."},{"startTime":2646.713,"endTime":2651.123,"body":"What I see is the opposite, which"},{"startTime":2646.713,"endTime":2651.123,"body":"is at the sprint review, developers"},{"startTime":2651.123,"endTime":2654.943,"body":"showcasing the product by saying,"},{"startTime":2651.123,"endTime":2654.943,"body":"well, I can click here now."},{"startTime":2655.043,"endTime":2659.553,"body":"It's okay to show that, but like you"},{"startTime":2655.043,"endTime":2659.553,"body":"said, start with, here's our sprint goal."},{"startTime":2659.603,"endTime":2661.963,"body":"Here's how the goal"},{"startTime":2659.603,"endTime":2661.963,"body":"meets the bigger picture."},{"startTime":2662.253,"endTime":2666.103,"body":"And then here's how the sprint"},{"startTime":2662.253,"endTime":2666.103,"body":"increment meets the bigger picture"},{"startTime":2666.133,"endTime":2667.853,"body":"by doing things along the way."},{"startTime":2668.103,"endTime":2671.023,"body":"Well, a lot of stuff has to fall"},{"startTime":2668.103,"endTime":2671.023,"body":"into place to make that happen."},{"startTime":2671.033,"endTime":2673.638,"body":"I don't want to get too into the"},{"startTime":2671.033,"endTime":2673.638,"body":"weeds on the retrospective, these"},{"startTime":2673.638,"endTime":2674.918,"body":"are things that I've learned."},{"startTime":2675.168,"endTime":2677.098,"body":"And if you can do this."},{"startTime":2677.348,"endTime":2681.378,"body":"On your own and you can constantly be"},{"startTime":2677.348,"endTime":2681.378,"body":"pointing out this is where we plug into"},{"startTime":2681.488,"endTime":2686.158,"body":"X, Y, Z . You can set yourself over"},{"startTime":2681.488,"endTime":2686.158,"body":"and above everyone else hopefully you"},{"startTime":2686.218,"endTime":2690.448,"body":"elevate your team with these kinds of"},{"startTime":2686.218,"endTime":2690.448,"body":"suggestions and you can just make it a"},{"startTime":2690.448,"endTime":2694.608,"body":"normal part of your day to day, but even"},{"startTime":2690.448,"endTime":2694.608,"body":"if you're in this pathological type of"},{"startTime":2694.608,"endTime":2698.758,"body":"organization where they can't help with"},{"startTime":2694.608,"endTime":2698.758,"body":"like ascribing blame tie things back"},{"startTime":2698.788,"endTime":2703.308,"body":"to the mission and the vision, tie the"},{"startTime":2698.788,"endTime":2703.308,"body":"goals back to strategies, at least the"},{"startTime":2703.318,"endTime":2705.748,"body":"implied I think this is our strategy."},{"startTime":2705.998,"endTime":2708.878,"body":"That's why we did X, Y, Z. And"},{"startTime":2705.998,"endTime":2708.878,"body":"then someone will tell you,"},{"startTime":2708.888,"endTime":2709.968,"body":"well, that's not a strategy."},{"startTime":2710.138,"endTime":2711.068,"body":"This is our strategy."},{"startTime":2711.218,"endTime":2711.928,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":2711.978,"endTime":2713.018,"body":"Now you've clarified"},{"startTime":2713.248,"endTime":2716.638,"body":"if you can't do that in one on ones before"},{"startTime":2713.248,"endTime":2716.638,"body":"you get to the big group session, Cool."},{"startTime":2716.638,"endTime":2716.988,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2716.998,"endTime":2719.108,"body":"You look like you look"},{"startTime":2716.998,"endTime":2719.108,"body":"silly in front of the crowd."},{"startTime":2719.228,"endTime":2721.848,"body":"You do that once and now you"},{"startTime":2719.228,"endTime":2721.848,"body":"know what the real strategy is."},{"startTime":2721.898,"endTime":2725.168,"body":"again, in my career, like I was never"},{"startTime":2721.898,"endTime":2725.168,"body":"scared of Being the person that presents"},{"startTime":2725.168,"endTime":2728.568,"body":"my laptop to the big screen in front"},{"startTime":2725.168,"endTime":2728.568,"body":"of everyone sitting in the room and"},{"startTime":2728.568,"endTime":2731.368,"body":"I'm typing and everyone's yelling at"},{"startTime":2728.568,"endTime":2731.368,"body":"me don't type that sentence, type this,"},{"startTime":2731.518,"endTime":2732.678,"body":"here's the words to use or whatever."},{"startTime":2732.678,"endTime":2738.208,"body":"Like there, there's a certain amount of"},{"startTime":2732.678,"endTime":2738.208,"body":"like humility involved in being willing to"},{"startTime":2738.458,"endTime":2740.768,"body":"throw yourself out there and get critique."},{"startTime":2741.128,"endTime":2744.328,"body":"And regardless of the type of organization"},{"startTime":2741.128,"endTime":2744.328,"body":"that you're in, whether it's the"},{"startTime":2744.358,"endTime":2747.708,"body":"type of team that you're in or if"},{"startTime":2744.358,"endTime":2747.708,"body":"they're psychological safety or not."},{"startTime":2748.203,"endTime":2749.753,"body":"Like throw yourself out there."},{"startTime":2750.163,"endTime":2754.833,"body":"Be involved, be curious"},{"startTime":2750.163,"endTime":2754.833,"body":"constantly about how things work."},{"startTime":2755.183,"endTime":2757.613,"body":"And yeah, that, I mean, that's"},{"startTime":2755.183,"endTime":2757.613,"body":"all stuff that's helped me."},{"startTime":2757.643,"endTime":2761.743,"body":"you just described how you can lead"},{"startTime":2757.643,"endTime":2761.743,"body":"by example, basically Definitely that"},{"startTime":2761.743,"endTime":2763.373,"body":"is the way to go lead by example."},{"startTime":2763.373,"endTime":2766.963,"body":"Don't be afraid, but at the same"},{"startTime":2763.373,"endTime":2766.963,"body":"time keep that resume updated"},{"startTime":2767.123,"endTime":2768.313,"body":"because you never know these days."},{"startTime":2768.573,"endTime":2770.823,"body":"We're talking about  what I've"},{"startTime":2768.573,"endTime":2770.823,"body":"seen across 20 years in tech."},{"startTime":2770.853,"endTime":2774.593,"body":"Oh boy, is there one thing that I've"},{"startTime":2770.853,"endTime":2774.593,"body":"seen that I'm absolutely sure about?"},{"startTime":2774.643,"endTime":2777.153,"body":"I would walk into the casino,"},{"startTime":2774.643,"endTime":2777.153,"body":"put all my money on, okay."},{"startTime":2777.353,"endTime":2781.853,"body":"Control is like the order of the day"},{"startTime":2777.353,"endTime":2781.853,"body":"that like the psychology of feel like"},{"startTime":2781.983,"endTime":2785.963,"body":"it's like corporate America is like"},{"startTime":2781.983,"endTime":2785.963,"body":"staffed by people that maybe they"},{"startTime":2785.963,"endTime":2787.503,"body":"didn't have enough control as a child."},{"startTime":2787.503,"endTime":2790.463,"body":"And now that they're adults, they"},{"startTime":2787.503,"endTime":2790.463,"body":"swing in the other direction too far."},{"startTime":2790.843,"endTime":2792.553,"body":"You know, maybe it's"},{"startTime":2790.843,"endTime":2792.553,"body":"that I don't really know."},{"startTime":2792.593,"endTime":2797.193,"body":"We did a podcast on the ubiquitous"},{"startTime":2792.593,"endTime":2797.193,"body":"nature of control., it's something"},{"startTime":2797.193,"endTime":2799.253,"body":"I've seen almost everywhere I've been."},{"startTime":2799.663,"endTime":2802.113,"body":"Yeah, I think it's just not just the U."},{"startTime":2802.113,"endTime":2805.213,"body":"S. I think it's just everywhere"},{"startTime":2802.113,"endTime":2805.213,"body":"in the Western control."},{"startTime":2805.543,"endTime":2807.643,"body":"We often speak about command and control."},{"startTime":2807.643,"endTime":2812.103,"body":"The control side of it is I think what"},{"startTime":2807.643,"endTime":2812.103,"body":"permeates in our psyche the whole time."},{"startTime":2812.303,"endTime":2815.283,"body":"The command side is how to"},{"startTime":2812.303,"endTime":2815.283,"body":"get the control and keep it."},{"startTime":2815.653,"endTime":2818.723,"body":"Some people, most people who"},{"startTime":2815.653,"endTime":2818.723,"body":"work in that way are good at it."},{"startTime":2819.183,"endTime":2820.533,"body":"But some are not in that,"},{"startTime":2820.623,"endTime":2825.113,"body":"Dubbed as the weak leaders, but we"},{"startTime":2820.623,"endTime":2825.113,"body":"all know that that way of writing"},{"startTime":2825.113,"endTime":2828.263,"body":"things is not going to get the best"},{"startTime":2825.113,"endTime":2828.263,"body":"results It's not gonna get creativity."},{"startTime":2828.313,"endTime":2833.243,"body":"I think most people watching and listening"},{"startTime":2828.313,"endTime":2833.243,"body":"to this come across the you know, the"},{"startTime":2833.243,"endTime":2837.443,"body":"environment basically where They're"},{"startTime":2833.243,"endTime":2837.443,"body":"working in a controlled environment."},{"startTime":2837.673,"endTime":2840.433,"body":"People are controlling of them."},{"startTime":2840.683,"endTime":2842.243,"body":"This is basically the only thing we know."},{"startTime":2842.573,"endTime":2843.783,"body":"This is how we know to work."},{"startTime":2844.153,"endTime":2846.683,"body":"It's changing, yes, but it's"},{"startTime":2844.153,"endTime":2846.683,"body":"not changing fast enough."},{"startTime":2846.713,"endTime":2850.093,"body":"I mean, it is changing, but it's"},{"startTime":2846.713,"endTime":2850.093,"body":"like changes being resisted, with the"},{"startTime":2850.103,"endTime":2855.063,"body":"maximum tools available to the people"},{"startTime":2850.103,"endTime":2855.063,"body":"in management we're at a point now, we"},{"startTime":2855.063,"endTime":2858.893,"body":"had a super lively discussion the other"},{"startTime":2855.063,"endTime":2858.893,"body":"night, even now  we're globalizing the"},{"startTime":2858.903,"endTime":2862.923,"body":"workforce to go to entire other countries"},{"startTime":2858.903,"endTime":2862.923,"body":"that are like the culture is more apt"},{"startTime":2863.143,"endTime":2866.743,"body":"To that type of control, Oh, just give"},{"startTime":2863.143,"endTime":2866.743,"body":"me a worker that'll just do what I say"},{"startTime":2866.743,"endTime":2871.123,"body":"and won't basically have a mind of their"},{"startTime":2866.743,"endTime":2871.123,"body":"own , they are in a culture that's more"},{"startTime":2871.123,"endTime":2875.433,"body":"subservient and people just do as they're"},{"startTime":2871.123,"endTime":2875.433,"body":"told which suits us great because it's"},{"startTime":2875.433,"endTime":2880.233,"body":"cheap to find that labor force and they'll"},{"startTime":2875.433,"endTime":2880.233,"body":"just do as they're told and not resist."},{"startTime":2880.483,"endTime":2884.193,"body":"And not challenge our decisions,"},{"startTime":2880.483,"endTime":2884.193,"body":"Unfortunately, that's what is"},{"startTime":2884.533,"endTime":2886.483,"body":"prevailing in our work environment."},{"startTime":2886.543,"endTime":2887.783,"body":"Well, in tech especially."},{"startTime":2887.783,"endTime":2891.383,"body":"the other thing, we talked a little"},{"startTime":2887.783,"endTime":2891.383,"body":"bit about trends in this podcast."},{"startTime":2891.633,"endTime":2894.003,"body":"That's why I always caution"},{"startTime":2891.633,"endTime":2894.003,"body":"people about trends."},{"startTime":2894.243,"endTime":2899.613,"body":", the post COVID era trend of some"},{"startTime":2894.243,"endTime":2899.613,"body":"large companies start laying off."},{"startTime":2899.893,"endTime":2903.813,"body":"Employees now, everybody else follows"},{"startTime":2899.893,"endTime":2903.813,"body":"the trend of laying off , some"},{"startTime":2903.903,"endTime":2908.023,"body":"Silicon Valley CEO shoots his mouth"},{"startTime":2903.903,"endTime":2908.023,"body":"off on , a video or a podcast or"},{"startTime":2908.023,"endTime":2909.073,"body":"interview or something like that."},{"startTime":2909.273,"endTime":2913.273,"body":"And now everyone else wants to follow him"},{"startTime":2909.273,"endTime":2913.273,"body":"like he's some kind of idol  these kinds"},{"startTime":2913.273,"endTime":2917.313,"body":"of trends, , they're not really helpful"},{"startTime":2913.273,"endTime":2917.313,"body":"like the Deming podcast that we just did."},{"startTime":2917.668,"endTime":2921.448,"body":"The Deming podcast, I mean, he"},{"startTime":2917.668,"endTime":2921.448,"body":"uses statistics to show that the"},{"startTime":2921.448,"endTime":2923.488,"body":"system is the means of control."},{"startTime":2923.868,"endTime":2927.378,"body":"And since management owns the system,"},{"startTime":2923.868,"endTime":2927.378,"body":"management has all the tools of control."},{"startTime":2927.698,"endTime":2930.528,"body":"But if management is going to control"},{"startTime":2927.698,"endTime":2930.528,"body":"the system tightly like that, and"},{"startTime":2930.528,"endTime":2933.868,"body":"not change the system, management"},{"startTime":2930.528,"endTime":2933.868,"body":"is going to accept responsibility"},{"startTime":2933.868,"endTime":2938.668,"body":"for 94 percent of the variance,"},{"startTime":2933.868,"endTime":2938.668,"body":"meaning mistakes, meaning failures."},{"startTime":2938.918,"endTime":2941.788,"body":"You know, which they don't do, which"},{"startTime":2938.918,"endTime":2941.788,"body":"they don't want to do they go back"},{"startTime":2941.788,"endTime":2943.488,"body":"into bad behaviors and everything."},{"startTime":2943.488,"endTime":2946.048,"body":"And we looked at all the bad behaviors"},{"startTime":2943.488,"endTime":2946.048,"body":"you talk about in crucial conversations."},{"startTime":2946.548,"endTime":2949.628,"body":"They go back into punishing the"},{"startTime":2946.548,"endTime":2949.628,"body":"backslide into blaming the blame game."},{"startTime":2949.748,"endTime":2952.778,"body":"Yeah, and that's the world,"},{"startTime":2949.748,"endTime":2952.778,"body":"I mean, of get this done."},{"startTime":2953.028,"endTime":2956.648,"body":"We know already what this is, because you"},{"startTime":2953.028,"endTime":2956.648,"body":"told that, and get it done by this date."},{"startTime":2956.898,"endTime":2958.338,"body":"And there's no negotiation there."},{"startTime":2958.588,"endTime":2961.708,"body":"And send me status reports throughout"},{"startTime":2958.588,"endTime":2961.708,"body":"so I can tell you're not doing well."},{"startTime":2961.888,"endTime":2963.918,"body":"Well, you're going to get"},{"startTime":2961.888,"endTime":2963.918,"body":"terrible quality work."},{"startTime":2963.968,"endTime":2966.808,"body":"I hope everyone knows everyone that"},{"startTime":2963.968,"endTime":2966.808,"body":"listens to this podcast probably knows and"},{"startTime":2966.808,"endTime":2970.338,"body":"already believes that you don't need me to"},{"startTime":2966.808,"endTime":2970.338,"body":"give you a doctoral dissertation they're"},{"startTime":2970.338,"endTime":2973.668,"body":"looking to bring information to authority"},{"startTime":2970.338,"endTime":2973.668,"body":"rather than the other way around."},{"startTime":2974.168,"endTime":2977.078,"body":"I believe I've got that the right way"},{"startTime":2974.168,"endTime":2977.078,"body":"around authority to the information,"},{"startTime":2977.348,"endTime":2978.818,"body":"authority, to the information."},{"startTime":2979.118,"endTime":2979.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2979.268,"endTime":2980.828,"body":"Rather than information to, that's"},{"startTime":2979.268,"endTime":2980.828,"body":"the way around to the authority."},{"startTime":2981.038,"endTime":2984.398,"body":"That's what David uh, Marquette"},{"startTime":2981.038,"endTime":2984.398,"body":"uh, talking about okay."},{"startTime":2984.488,"endTime":2986.778,"body":"In his book ship around."},{"startTime":2987.058,"endTime":2988.048,"body":"Building trust."},{"startTime":2988.048,"endTime":2990.688,"body":"I mean, you, you might be able"},{"startTime":2988.048,"endTime":2990.688,"body":"to do that at a very small scale."},{"startTime":2990.938,"endTime":2991.398,"body":"Here and there."},{"startTime":2991.408,"endTime":2994.748,"body":"You might be able to do it with an"},{"startTime":2991.408,"endTime":2994.748,"body":"individual against a backdrop like this."},{"startTime":2994.748,"endTime":2995.698,"body":"But I don't know, man."},{"startTime":2996.148,"endTime":2997.088,"body":"Keep your resume updated."},{"startTime":2997.088,"endTime":2999.088,"body":"Is it too early to break that one out?"},{"startTime":2999.118,"endTime":2999.528,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2999.528,"endTime":3001.908,"body":"No, we're quite a ways into the podcast."},{"startTime":3001.958,"endTime":3005.738,"body":"Yeah, no, listen, this is probably why"},{"startTime":3001.958,"endTime":3005.738,"body":"I think you're seeing another trend."},{"startTime":3006.048,"endTime":3009.088,"body":"Which is most people only last"},{"startTime":3006.048,"endTime":3009.088,"body":"nine months to a year in a job"},{"startTime":3009.168,"endTime":3012.488,"body":"and they they flip around like a"},{"startTime":3009.168,"endTime":3012.488,"body":"butterfly from one job to another."},{"startTime":3012.903,"endTime":3014.253,"body":"Years ago, it was never like that."},{"startTime":3014.343,"endTime":3016.703,"body":"I mean, the people stay"},{"startTime":3014.343,"endTime":3016.703,"body":"there and have a career."},{"startTime":3016.753,"endTime":3019.583,"body":"Now, it's just job, not a career."},{"startTime":3019.663,"endTime":3020.733,"body":"And that's a shame."},{"startTime":3020.783,"endTime":3023.633,"body":"Where especially with younger folks"},{"startTime":3020.783,"endTime":3023.633,"body":"that stay in a job for one year."},{"startTime":3023.683,"endTime":3023.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3023.983,"endTime":3028.493,"body":"And then move on a part of it is"},{"startTime":3023.983,"endTime":3028.493,"body":"they're Maximizing their salary that,"},{"startTime":3028.493,"endTime":3031.323,"body":"that is a tactic in tech, you move"},{"startTime":3028.493,"endTime":3031.323,"body":"around quickly in a small span of"},{"startTime":3031.323,"endTime":3033.823,"body":"time, maximize your salary, and then"},{"startTime":3031.323,"endTime":3033.823,"body":"kind of sit in one place once you get"},{"startTime":3033.823,"endTime":3036.063,"body":"to your more senior levels, right?"},{"startTime":3036.313,"endTime":3040.003,"body":"But I don't want to talk about that"},{"startTime":3036.313,"endTime":3040.003,"body":"today, I have seen that a bunch, although"},{"startTime":3040.003,"endTime":3042.933,"body":"I've never necessarily been a fan, like"},{"startTime":3040.003,"endTime":3042.933,"body":"I like to, I like to build a thing and"},{"startTime":3042.933,"endTime":3043.873,"body":"live in a place, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3043.883,"endTime":3046.873,"body":"I like to change the system, and"},{"startTime":3043.883,"endTime":3046.873,"body":"you know, I like to sit under the"},{"startTime":3046.873,"endTime":3048.523,"body":"tree that I planted 20 years ago."},{"startTime":3048.878,"endTime":3051.738,"body":"And enjoy it, rather than like,"},{"startTime":3048.878,"endTime":3051.738,"body":"spend my whole life Spotting other"},{"startTime":3051.738,"endTime":3053.068,"body":"people under other people's trees?"},{"startTime":3053.068,"endTime":3055.008,"body":"Laughs"},{"startTime":3055.008,"endTime":3058.378,"body":"you know, an interesting thing that"},{"startTime":3055.008,"endTime":3058.378,"body":"we could say on this topic, that is,"},{"startTime":3058.418,"endTime":3060.168,"body":"would be a challenge to the audience."},{"startTime":3060.418,"endTime":3063.758,"body":"Here is Punished by Rewards"},{"startTime":3060.418,"endTime":3063.758,"body":"by Alfie Cohn from 1993."},{"startTime":3063.758,"endTime":3066.738,"body":"The actual full title is Punished"},{"startTime":3063.758,"endTime":3066.738,"body":"by Rewards, The Trouble with"},{"startTime":3066.738,"endTime":3071.618,"body":"Gold Stars, Incentive Plans,"},{"startTime":3066.738,"endTime":3071.618,"body":"A's, Praise, and Other Bribes."},{"startTime":3072.538,"endTime":3076.738,"body":"So in Punished by Rewards, which is a"},{"startTime":3072.538,"endTime":3076.738,"body":"very interesting book which we, we should"},{"startTime":3076.738,"endTime":3078.148,"body":"do a podcast on Punished by Rewards."},{"startTime":3078.618,"endTime":3081.008,"body":"Because it's got a lot of concepts"},{"startTime":3078.618,"endTime":3081.008,"body":"that people are just not, not, not"},{"startTime":3081.008,"endTime":3083.468,"body":"like people in the agile space or"},{"startTime":3081.008,"endTime":3083.468,"body":"people in software development or."},{"startTime":3083.823,"endTime":3086.883,"body":"Whatever people, period, are not aware of."},{"startTime":3087.203,"endTime":3091.183,"body":"It, and one of the points that that"},{"startTime":3087.203,"endTime":3091.183,"body":"book makes is that the carrot and"},{"startTime":3091.183,"endTime":3095.643,"body":"the stick are two sides of the same"},{"startTime":3091.183,"endTime":3095.643,"body":"coin, and that coin is control."},{"startTime":3095.893,"endTime":3100.113,"body":"So, you need to, whatever you're trying"},{"startTime":3095.893,"endTime":3100.113,"body":"to learn taking people's intrinsic"},{"startTime":3100.293,"endTime":3105.013,"body":"motivations And forcing a world where"},{"startTime":3100.293,"endTime":3105.013,"body":"everything's extrinsic where you're"},{"startTime":3105.013,"endTime":3108.063,"body":"either doing something because you're"},{"startTime":3105.013,"endTime":3108.063,"body":"going to get a reward for it or doing"},{"startTime":3108.063,"endTime":3109.703,"body":"something so you don't get screamed at"},{"startTime":3109.753,"endTime":3112.733,"body":"like, it's making the"},{"startTime":3109.753,"endTime":3112.733,"body":"whole world over like that."},{"startTime":3112.843,"endTime":3113.093,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3113.283,"endTime":3117.133,"body":"Has been a disaster, basically,"},{"startTime":3113.283,"endTime":3117.133,"body":"is the premise of the book."},{"startTime":3117.443,"endTime":3120.163,"body":"And like, what, how, what the"},{"startTime":3117.443,"endTime":3120.163,"body":"world could be, like how our"},{"startTime":3120.163,"endTime":3121.723,"body":"interactions could be if we weren't."},{"startTime":3122.178,"endTime":3126.118,"body":"Trying to constantly jockey for control"},{"startTime":3122.178,"endTime":3126.118,"body":"and there are, there are ways to do it."},{"startTime":3126.118,"endTime":3129.958,"body":"There are ways to, to get"},{"startTime":3126.118,"endTime":3129.958,"body":"people to be productive without"},{"startTime":3130.448,"endTime":3131.658,"body":"the carrot or the stick."},{"startTime":3131.838,"endTime":3136.328,"body":"You know, you can work at a place and"},{"startTime":3131.838,"endTime":3136.328,"body":"not have a yearly review where we sit"},{"startTime":3136.328,"endTime":3139.428,"body":"down and tell you why we can't give"},{"startTime":3136.328,"endTime":3139.428,"body":"you that whatever percent that you were"},{"startTime":3139.428,"endTime":3142.318,"body":"expecting or like, we can just have"},{"startTime":3139.428,"endTime":3142.318,"body":"an adult conversation and say, I'm not"},{"startTime":3142.318,"endTime":3143.918,"body":"giving you that much money like, right."},{"startTime":3144.038,"endTime":3147.348,"body":"And here's why without the trappings"},{"startTime":3144.038,"endTime":3147.348,"body":"of a yearly review where you get a"},{"startTime":3147.358,"endTime":3150.668,"body":"star and you know, the kid can go"},{"startTime":3147.358,"endTime":3150.668,"body":"to school and learn math without."},{"startTime":3151.168,"endTime":3153.648,"body":"I ever happened to give being given"},{"startTime":3151.168,"endTime":3153.648,"body":"a letter letter grade and I feel"},{"startTime":3153.658,"endTime":3158.178,"body":"like if you're going to say that"},{"startTime":3153.658,"endTime":3158.178,"body":"in like modern american culture."},{"startTime":3158.188,"endTime":3162.658,"body":"You're going to be perceived as you"},{"startTime":3158.188,"endTime":3162.658,"body":"know a troublemaker off your rocker."},{"startTime":3162.668,"endTime":3164.288,"body":"I was gonna say that true."},{"startTime":3164.358,"endTime":3168.198,"body":"Yeah, very very true so the"},{"startTime":3164.358,"endTime":3168.198,"body":"the carrot and stick right?"},{"startTime":3168.448,"endTime":3169.818,"body":"Why are they so ubiquitous?"},{"startTime":3169.838,"endTime":3172.918,"body":"How do we get to that situation"},{"startTime":3169.838,"endTime":3172.918,"body":"where people are basically"},{"startTime":3172.918,"endTime":3174.298,"body":"just saying do this or else?"},{"startTime":3174.348,"endTime":3178.128,"body":"You know who I'm gonna blame first"},{"startTime":3174.348,"endTime":3178.128,"body":"Taylor, but also the actual Punished"},{"startTime":3178.128,"endTime":3179.538,"body":"by Rewards does go into this."},{"startTime":3179.788,"endTime":3184.638,"body":"It does go into Punished by either it's"},{"startTime":3179.788,"endTime":3184.638,"body":"Punished by Rewards or it is There is"},{"startTime":3184.638,"endTime":3189.738,"body":"another book that actually is excellent"},{"startTime":3184.638,"endTime":3189.738,"body":"that talks about the school system I'll"},{"startTime":3189.738,"endTime":3191.488,"body":"find that, cause that's important too."},{"startTime":3191.818,"endTime":3195.238,"body":"John Taylor Gatto, Weapons"},{"startTime":3191.818,"endTime":3195.238,"body":"of Mass Instruction."},{"startTime":3195.488,"endTime":3201.678,"body":"He will give you the history of the"},{"startTime":3195.488,"endTime":3201.678,"body":"school system in America, and why these"},{"startTime":3201.678,"endTime":3203.488,"body":"things are built into the culture."},{"startTime":3203.738,"endTime":3205.458,"body":"They're built in the culture"},{"startTime":3203.738,"endTime":3205.458,"body":"because they're built into"},{"startTime":3205.618,"endTime":3206.888,"body":"elementary school, basically."},{"startTime":3207.248,"endTime":3208.598,"body":"They're built in the way"},{"startTime":3207.248,"endTime":3208.598,"body":"they do things there."},{"startTime":3208.608,"endTime":3212.218,"body":"So people grow up with that it's"},{"startTime":3208.608,"endTime":3212.218,"body":"actually, quite literally, going back"},{"startTime":3212.218,"endTime":3215.028,"body":"to something you normally see on the"},{"startTime":3212.218,"endTime":3215.028,"body":"podcast, it quite literally is the"},{"startTime":3215.058,"endTime":3216.698,"body":"only thing people have ever known."},{"startTime":3217.038,"endTime":3218.578,"body":"So how do we break out of that?"},{"startTime":3218.618,"endTime":3224.028,"body":"Like, how do we break out of the cycles"},{"startTime":3218.618,"endTime":3224.028,"body":"of control and even begin to build trust?"},{"startTime":3224.108,"endTime":3228.508,"body":"Well, let me introduce you to something,"},{"startTime":3224.108,"endTime":3228.508,"body":"Om, that I call regression to the mean,"},{"startTime":3228.608,"endTime":3231.358,"body":"I've been waiting for a hundred podcasts."},{"startTime":3231.608,"endTime":3234.588,"body":"That's not true, but I have been"},{"startTime":3231.608,"endTime":3234.588,"body":"waiting for like 20 podcasts to"},{"startTime":3234.588,"endTime":3238.398,"body":"figure out how to sneak regression"},{"startTime":3234.588,"endTime":3238.398,"body":"to the mean into a podcast."},{"startTime":3238.408,"endTime":3242.958,"body":"And we just did the Deming podcast,"},{"startTime":3238.408,"endTime":3242.958,"body":"so it's , it's not a wacky idea now to"},{"startTime":3242.958,"endTime":3247.538,"body":"bring up basic statistics and say, if you"},{"startTime":3242.958,"endTime":3247.538,"body":"chart everything, There will be the mean."},{"startTime":3247.538,"endTime":3249.708,"body":"There'll be the mean of all of the."},{"startTime":3249.998,"endTime":3254.168,"body":"Data that you are considering and"},{"startTime":3249.998,"endTime":3254.168,"body":"you'll have good instances and bad"},{"startTime":3254.168,"endTime":3257.158,"body":"instances and maybe more bad instances"},{"startTime":3254.168,"endTime":3257.158,"body":"of good and the mean will be a"},{"startTime":3257.158,"endTime":3258.728,"body":"little bit lower than you expected."},{"startTime":3258.978,"endTime":3260.908,"body":"This is the quote, raising the bar."},{"startTime":3260.908,"endTime":3263.078,"body":"Like what is the level"},{"startTime":3260.908,"endTime":3263.078,"body":"of the bar right now?"},{"startTime":3263.378,"endTime":3265.918,"body":"I would say the bar is set pretty dumb."},{"startTime":3266.048,"endTime":3268.228,"body":"Like I said, it's at a pretty dumb level."},{"startTime":3268.288,"endTime":3272.078,"body":"You know, it's like, so how do"},{"startTime":3268.288,"endTime":3272.078,"body":"you start even teaching people"},{"startTime":3272.078,"endTime":3273.278,"body":"that there are other systems?"},{"startTime":3273.623,"endTime":3276.523,"body":"Like, how do you teach people there"},{"startTime":3273.623,"endTime":3276.523,"body":"are other things in Gantt charts and"},{"startTime":3276.523,"endTime":3280.533,"body":"work breakdown packages well, you gotta"},{"startTime":3276.523,"endTime":3280.533,"body":"educate them first of all, they gotta"},{"startTime":3280.543,"endTime":3282.253,"body":"be willing to learn, so, there's that."},{"startTime":3282.263,"endTime":3282.703,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":3282.743,"endTime":3285.623,"body":"So your education system"},{"startTime":3282.743,"endTime":3285.623,"body":"probably should do something."},{"startTime":3285.873,"endTime":3289.993,"body":"That plays on people's"},{"startTime":3285.873,"endTime":3289.993,"body":"natural born desire to learn."},{"startTime":3290.493,"endTime":3291.833,"body":"Just the joy of learning something."},{"startTime":3292.083,"endTime":3295.493,"body":"Which, if you think about"},{"startTime":3292.083,"endTime":3295.493,"body":"kindergarten, kids are born with that."},{"startTime":3295.893,"endTime":3300.283,"body":"It's just that they're then ordained"},{"startTime":3295.893,"endTime":3300.283,"body":"into this way of working, right?"},{"startTime":3300.283,"endTime":3302.233,"body":"This way of behaving and so forth."},{"startTime":3302.563,"endTime":3306.653,"body":"You can take this argument all the"},{"startTime":3302.563,"endTime":3306.653,"body":"way to color between the lines."},{"startTime":3306.753,"endTime":3307.723,"body":"So yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":3307.723,"endTime":3310.593,"body":"People want to, people have"},{"startTime":3307.723,"endTime":3310.593,"body":"to be willing to learn."},{"startTime":3310.803,"endTime":3312.853,"body":"But assuming they are, right?"},{"startTime":3312.903,"endTime":3314.203,"body":"How do you start to change this?"},{"startTime":3314.683,"endTime":3316.633,"body":"Well it's a constant effort."},{"startTime":3316.813,"endTime":3320.043,"body":"I mean this is like where you get into"},{"startTime":3316.813,"endTime":3320.043,"body":"like government but that's what government"},{"startTime":3320.053,"endTime":3324.833,"body":"does is it outlines policy You know puts"},{"startTime":3320.053,"endTime":3324.833,"body":"money and puts effort into policy so"},{"startTime":3324.833,"endTime":3328.413,"body":"it's like the People collectively have"},{"startTime":3324.833,"endTime":3328.413,"body":"to make an effort to say like this is"},{"startTime":3328.413,"endTime":3332.443,"body":"something that we need to do and it needs"},{"startTime":3328.413,"endTime":3332.443,"body":"to be backed by policy So that that is"},{"startTime":3332.443,"endTime":3333.663,"body":"way out of the scope of this podcast."},{"startTime":3333.843,"endTime":3335.923,"body":"It's not a political podcast"},{"startTime":3333.843,"endTime":3335.923,"body":"that analyzes policy."},{"startTime":3336.313,"endTime":3338.773,"body":"Honestly, there's probably not a"},{"startTime":3336.313,"endTime":3338.773,"body":"lot of podcasts that analyze policy."},{"startTime":3338.773,"endTime":3341.793,"body":"I'd be interested to look around to see"},{"startTime":3338.773,"endTime":3341.793,"body":"any that actually think critically and"},{"startTime":3341.793,"endTime":3344.233,"body":"talk about policy over a 20 year period."},{"startTime":3344.503,"endTime":3346.733,"body":"I'm not quite sure there"},{"startTime":3344.503,"endTime":3346.733,"body":"is a lot of that anymore."},{"startTime":3346.763,"endTime":3349.033,"body":"That's probably why we are where"},{"startTime":3346.763,"endTime":3349.033,"body":"we're at right now, is like,"},{"startTime":3349.033,"endTime":3351.523,"body":"nobody really is looking at"},{"startTime":3349.033,"endTime":3351.523,"body":"policy over a long period of time."},{"startTime":3351.523,"endTime":3354.138,"body":"And businesses are definitely this way."},{"startTime":3354.438,"endTime":3359.028,"body":"This intellectual stagnation, because"},{"startTime":3354.438,"endTime":3359.028,"body":"they're not, they're not like the,"},{"startTime":3359.028,"endTime":3362.558,"body":"the ideas of Deming are hard, like"},{"startTime":3359.028,"endTime":3362.558,"body":"an agile transformation is hard"},{"startTime":3362.858,"endTime":3365.503,"body":"I, I was surprised that when Marty"},{"startTime":3362.858,"endTime":3365.503,"body":"Cagan wrote the Transform book,"},{"startTime":3365.503,"endTime":3367.063,"body":"because I'm like, this stuff is hard."},{"startTime":3367.313,"endTime":3370.373,"body":"You know, obviously he wrote it because"},{"startTime":3367.313,"endTime":3370.373,"body":"he was, he, because he probably said to"},{"startTime":3370.373,"endTime":3373.553,"body":"himself , there's stuff that I see that"},{"startTime":3370.373,"endTime":3373.553,"body":"just holds companies back that they're"},{"startTime":3373.553,"endTime":3376.343,"body":"never gonna get passed and they're never"},{"startTime":3373.553,"endTime":3376.343,"body":"gonna get to any of my other books."},{"startTime":3376.648,"endTime":3378.528,"body":"Because they keep messing"},{"startTime":3376.648,"endTime":3378.528,"body":"up this basic core level."},{"startTime":3378.818,"endTime":3381.708,"body":"And his advice up until that point was"},{"startTime":3378.818,"endTime":3381.708,"body":"like, we'll just avoid those companies."},{"startTime":3382.198,"endTime":3383.548,"body":"But that's not great advice."},{"startTime":3383.798,"endTime":3385.408,"body":"It is really not great advice."},{"startTime":3385.438,"endTime":3391.338,"body":"I mean, I think other than just how we"},{"startTime":3385.438,"endTime":3391.338,"body":"teach people or make sure that , they"},{"startTime":3391.338,"endTime":3394.818,"body":"open their eyes to these other ways"},{"startTime":3391.338,"endTime":3394.818,"body":"companies have to be willing to, to"},{"startTime":3394.818,"endTime":3397.948,"body":"take that on themselves and say, we're"},{"startTime":3394.818,"endTime":3397.948,"body":"going to do this differently now."},{"startTime":3398.198,"endTime":3400.568,"body":"And try it in smaller chunks, right?"},{"startTime":3400.568,"endTime":3404.608,"body":"So try it in little areas here and there"},{"startTime":3400.568,"endTime":3404.608,"body":"and see how it works and then evangelize"},{"startTime":3404.658,"endTime":3407.988,"body":"it to establish that mean for themselves."},{"startTime":3408.048,"endTime":3410.618,"body":"Cause if you're a company that doesn't"},{"startTime":3408.048,"endTime":3410.618,"body":"work in this way, and you're just"},{"startTime":3410.628,"endTime":3415.058,"body":"basically coming from that whole command"},{"startTime":3410.628,"endTime":3415.058,"body":"and control you know, ethos, how are"},{"startTime":3415.058,"endTime":3416.908,"body":"you going to know what your mean is?"},{"startTime":3416.918,"endTime":3417.158,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3417.258,"endTime":3419.028,"body":"Is it just simply rock bottom?"},{"startTime":3419.178,"endTime":3422.638,"body":"Or maybe there are people"},{"startTime":3419.178,"endTime":3422.638,"body":"within the company that are."},{"startTime":3422.888,"endTime":3427.228,"body":"Armed with the knowledge that's"},{"startTime":3422.888,"endTime":3427.228,"body":"needed to lift this up, right?"},{"startTime":3427.408,"endTime":3430.528,"body":"I wonder like I'm, I'm putting"},{"startTime":3427.408,"endTime":3430.528,"body":"together my PhD thesis my"},{"startTime":3430.528,"endTime":3431.958,"body":"doctoral dissertation right now."},{"startTime":3431.958,"endTime":3435.608,"body":"And it's going to be that the regression"},{"startTime":3431.958,"endTime":3435.608,"body":"to the mean at most companies, like"},{"startTime":3435.608,"endTime":3437.618,"body":"the mean is a command and control."},{"startTime":3437.868,"endTime":3441.768,"body":"This, this whole default to"},{"startTime":3437.868,"endTime":3441.768,"body":"exploitation of workers rather than"},{"startTime":3441.788,"endTime":3443.288,"body":"supporting and lifting up workers."},{"startTime":3443.578,"endTime":3444.718,"body":"No on the job training."},{"startTime":3444.718,"endTime":3447.368,"body":"The mean is do it on your"},{"startTime":3444.718,"endTime":3447.368,"body":"own time, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3447.398,"endTime":3447.698,"body":"I mean?"},{"startTime":3448.018,"endTime":3449.658,"body":"Yeah, I would expect that"},{"startTime":3448.018,"endTime":3449.658,"body":"stuff is in the mean."},{"startTime":3449.908,"endTime":3452.648,"body":"And,  you probably could"},{"startTime":3449.908,"endTime":3452.648,"body":"put together a survey."},{"startTime":3453.058,"endTime":3456.878,"body":"To go out and gather this research"},{"startTime":3453.058,"endTime":3456.878,"body":"yourself just, just a baseline kind of"},{"startTime":3456.878,"endTime":3461.298,"body":"like a survey that says I'm going to, I'm"},{"startTime":3456.878,"endTime":3461.298,"body":"going to analyze elements of control type"},{"startTime":3461.298,"endTime":3464.038,"body":"culture versus a more open type culture."},{"startTime":3464.038,"endTime":3467.588,"body":"And it had to be a spectrum because it's"},{"startTime":3464.038,"endTime":3467.588,"body":"not really a binary thing, but go out"},{"startTime":3467.588,"endTime":3470.148,"body":"and survey workers at 5, 000 companies."},{"startTime":3470.538,"endTime":3472.328,"body":"I don't know how you would"},{"startTime":3470.538,"endTime":3472.328,"body":"perform something like that."},{"startTime":3472.368,"endTime":3474.608,"body":"Yeah, probably how you write the"},{"startTime":3472.368,"endTime":3474.608,"body":"survey would be very important."},{"startTime":3475.098,"endTime":3478.058,"body":"But you probably could baseline"},{"startTime":3475.098,"endTime":3478.058,"body":"this , and then once you build"},{"startTime":3478.058,"endTime":3482.398,"body":"a baseline, For this regression"},{"startTime":3478.058,"endTime":3482.398,"body":"to the mean of what the mean is."},{"startTime":3482.648,"endTime":3485.418,"body":"Then you'd have things to look"},{"startTime":3482.648,"endTime":3485.418,"body":"out for to be like, Hey, most"},{"startTime":3485.418,"endTime":3486.858,"body":"companies are regressing to the mean."},{"startTime":3486.858,"endTime":3487.568,"body":"Well, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":3487.568,"endTime":3488.598,"body":"Well, they're regressing to the mean."},{"startTime":3488.608,"endTime":3491.008,"body":"The mean is they've"},{"startTime":3488.608,"endTime":3491.008,"body":"got these performative."},{"startTime":3491.258,"endTime":3492.378,"body":"Ceremonies that they do."},{"startTime":3492.388,"endTime":3496.248,"body":"Oh boy, I don't say ceremonies often,"},{"startTime":3492.388,"endTime":3496.248,"body":"people dig on the Scrum Ceremonies"},{"startTime":3496.328,"endTime":3500.388,"body":"and then they don't say anything about"},{"startTime":3496.328,"endTime":3500.388,"body":"yearly reviews and status updates and all"},{"startTime":3500.388,"endTime":3501.538,"body":"these other meetings they're going to."},{"startTime":3501.538,"endTime":3504.198,"body":"But boy, We like to complain about Scrum."},{"startTime":3504.198,"endTime":3505.568,"body":"It's, yeah, it's a petty thing."},{"startTime":3505.608,"endTime":3507.718,"body":"I mean, call them events"},{"startTime":3505.608,"endTime":3507.718,"body":"if you want, but yeah."},{"startTime":3508.218,"endTime":3510.488,"body":"So, okay, so that's where"},{"startTime":3508.218,"endTime":3510.488,"body":"there's a start, right?"},{"startTime":3510.578,"endTime":3513.078,"body":"Yeah, so, what, I guess, what would"},{"startTime":3510.578,"endTime":3513.078,"body":"be some symptoms of the mean that I'm"},{"startTime":3513.078,"endTime":3514.078,"body":"talking about that kind of help us?"},{"startTime":3514.078,"endTime":3518.298,"body":"Like bureaucracy as a tool of control,"},{"startTime":3514.078,"endTime":3518.298,"body":"any organization with a governance"},{"startTime":3518.298,"endTime":3520.788,"body":"board that's where, where  new ideas."},{"startTime":3520.858,"endTime":3525.078,"body":"You have to go through a lot of"},{"startTime":3520.858,"endTime":3525.078,"body":"hoops to even filter in to the"},{"startTime":3525.078,"endTime":3526.848,"body":"these are the companies that like,"},{"startTime":3525.078,"endTime":3526.848,"body":"they don't have any new ideas."},{"startTime":3526.898,"endTime":3528.288,"body":"They don't, they don't innovate."},{"startTime":3528.438,"endTime":3531.298,"body":"I mean, they're just trying"},{"startTime":3528.438,"endTime":3531.298,"body":"to stay alive basically."},{"startTime":3531.728,"endTime":3535.318,"body":"And they lose, they lose either"},{"startTime":3531.728,"endTime":3535.318,"body":"other companies or worse yet the"},{"startTime":3535.318,"endTime":3536.898,"body":"companies from other countries."},{"startTime":3537.118,"endTime":3540.518,"body":"But I think this, see, I think this"},{"startTime":3537.118,"endTime":3540.518,"body":"phenomenon is real and I'd like"},{"startTime":3540.518,"endTime":3541.758,"body":"to, I'd like to think about it."},{"startTime":3541.758,"endTime":3544.878,"body":"I like, I don't know how I"},{"startTime":3541.758,"endTime":3544.878,"body":"already have like three, two,"},{"startTime":3544.938,"endTime":3546.598,"body":"two, three daytime jobs right now."},{"startTime":3546.598,"endTime":3547.668,"body":"I don't need another job, but."},{"startTime":3547.918,"endTime":3552.338,"body":"It's interesting to think about like, what"},{"startTime":3547.918,"endTime":3552.338,"body":"could we write down of the characteristics"},{"startTime":3552.338,"endTime":3554.368,"body":"of the mean what companies regress to?"},{"startTime":3554.738,"endTime":3558.298,"body":"Cause I think training your people"},{"startTime":3554.738,"endTime":3558.298,"body":"versus not training your people."},{"startTime":3558.548,"endTime":3561.228,"body":"Most companies I've ever been at,"},{"startTime":3558.548,"endTime":3561.228,"body":"they don't, they don't do like that."},{"startTime":3561.478,"endTime":3563.938,"body":"They'll offer you like, Oh,"},{"startTime":3561.478,"endTime":3563.938,"body":"we offer employees training"},{"startTime":3563.938,"endTime":3564.568,"body":"or whatever, but it's like."},{"startTime":3564.963,"endTime":3565.943,"body":"Only a certain amount."},{"startTime":3565.963,"endTime":3568.873,"body":"And then any training that's"},{"startTime":3565.963,"endTime":3568.873,"body":"worthwhile is like five times the"},{"startTime":3568.873,"endTime":3570.293,"body":"price of what they're willing to pay."},{"startTime":3570.293,"endTime":3571.193,"body":"There's hoops involved."},{"startTime":3571.193,"endTime":3571.603,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3571.753,"endTime":3573.743,"body":"most companies, I think every"},{"startTime":3571.753,"endTime":3573.743,"body":"company I've, I don't think I've"},{"startTime":3573.743,"endTime":3576.893,"body":"ever been at a company that doesn't"},{"startTime":3573.743,"endTime":3576.893,"body":"do maybe one or two companies."},{"startTime":3577.143,"endTime":3578.853,"body":"That doesn't do yearly"},{"startTime":3577.143,"endTime":3578.853,"body":"reviews, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3578.853,"endTime":3581.583,"body":"The performative yearly review"},{"startTime":3578.853,"endTime":3581.583,"body":"tied to salary and stuff like that."},{"startTime":3581.588,"endTime":3585.878,"body":"Well, possibly all of those should"},{"startTime":3581.588,"endTime":3585.878,"body":"be on that survey that you do."},{"startTime":3585.978,"endTime":3589.338,"body":"You've gotta find a way of quantifying"},{"startTime":3585.978,"endTime":3589.338,"body":"that on a scale of some kind if"},{"startTime":3589.338,"endTime":3591.228,"body":"you're doing a poll or a survey."},{"startTime":3591.618,"endTime":3592.488,"body":"But yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3592.488,"endTime":3594.168,"body":"I think that would be tremendous,"},{"startTime":3594.168,"endTime":3598.678,"body":"how often does your direct manager sit"},{"startTime":3594.168,"endTime":3598.678,"body":"down with coaching sessions with you?"},{"startTime":3598.778,"endTime":3600.818,"body":"Were, were you not talking"},{"startTime":3598.778,"endTime":3600.818,"body":"about status reports?"},{"startTime":3601.143,"endTime":3604.683,"body":"You're not talking about, you know what"},{"startTime":3601.143,"endTime":3604.683,"body":"I mean, updates or whatever, and your"},{"startTime":3604.683,"endTime":3607.283,"body":"boss is not yelling at you about doing"},{"startTime":3604.683,"endTime":3607.283,"body":"things, like you're not in trouble."},{"startTime":3607.783,"endTime":3612.063,"body":"Actually helping meaning coaching meaning"},{"startTime":3607.783,"endTime":3612.063,"body":"sponsoring you to move forward in the"},{"startTime":3612.063,"endTime":3616.413,"body":"future coaching real real coaching If"},{"startTime":3612.063,"endTime":3616.413,"body":"it's not your boss, do you have a coach"},{"startTime":3616.433,"endTime":3618.013,"body":"in the company that you can turn to?"},{"startTime":3618.123,"endTime":3620.053,"body":"Yeah, right So yeah,"},{"startTime":3618.123,"endTime":3620.053,"body":"these are great questions."},{"startTime":3620.143,"endTime":3623.043,"body":"even that point is in the Marty"},{"startTime":3620.143,"endTime":3623.043,"body":"Cagan book where he even outlines"},{"startTime":3623.043,"endTime":3626.043,"body":"that the modern manager like this is"},{"startTime":3623.043,"endTime":3626.043,"body":"really your only job responsibilities"},{"startTime":3626.233,"endTime":3630.143,"body":"hiring people and then coaching and"},{"startTime":3626.233,"endTime":3630.143,"body":"Advancing the careers and the skills"},{"startTime":3630.353,"endTime":3631.333,"body":"of the people that are on your team."},{"startTime":3631.353,"endTime":3635.423,"body":"That's really it You know the old like"},{"startTime":3631.353,"endTime":3635.423,"body":"standing over people with a stopwatch or"},{"startTime":3635.423,"endTime":3637.213,"body":"whatever like Nobody does that anymore."},{"startTime":3637.463,"endTime":3638.293,"body":"Yeah, very true."},{"startTime":3638.333,"endTime":3640.263,"body":"Sorry, I thought I was, it"},{"startTime":3638.333,"endTime":3640.263,"body":"sounded like I was attacking."},{"startTime":3640.263,"endTime":3641.113,"body":"I was like, nobody does that anymore."},{"startTime":3641.113,"endTime":3641.493,"body":"Nobody does that, why?"},{"startTime":3641.533,"endTime":3642.233,"body":"Kathy I don't know."},{"startTime":3642.483,"endTime":3643.403,"body":"Nobody does that anymore."},{"startTime":3643.433,"endTime":3643.903,"body":"Jim."},{"startTime":3644.153,"endTime":3646.663,"body":"Sorry, I don't know why"},{"startTime":3644.153,"endTime":3646.663,"body":"that sounded so accusatory."},{"startTime":3646.913,"endTime":3649.173,"body":"There's lots of Jims and Kathys"},{"startTime":3646.913,"endTime":3649.173,"body":"out there that can relate."},{"startTime":3649.423,"endTime":3652.413,"body":"This goes back to the podcast where we"},{"startTime":3649.423,"endTime":3652.413,"body":"were talking about the three different"},{"startTime":3652.413,"endTime":3657.053,"body":"types of organizations, the bureaucratic"},{"startTime":3652.413,"endTime":3657.053,"body":"generative, and What was the other one?"},{"startTime":3657.303,"endTime":3658.073,"body":"Psychopathic."},{"startTime":3658.073,"endTime":3658.643,"body":"I can't remember what that was."},{"startTime":3659.143,"endTime":3659.893,"body":"Something like that."},{"startTime":3659.903,"endTime":3661.903,"body":"I can't remember either"},{"startTime":3659.903,"endTime":3661.903,"body":"now, but it starts with a P."},{"startTime":3662.003,"endTime":3665.108,"body":"once the system regresses to"},{"startTime":3662.003,"endTime":3665.108,"body":"the mean that's where you've"},{"startTime":3665.118,"endTime":3668.598,"body":"got to pay consultants, outside"},{"startTime":3665.118,"endTime":3668.598,"body":"consultants, to bring you opinions."},{"startTime":3668.778,"endTime":3671.618,"body":"Because you can't believe anything"},{"startTime":3668.778,"endTime":3671.618,"body":"anybody inside the system says."},{"startTime":3671.668,"endTime":3673.998,"body":"Yeah, yeah, that's sad but true, right?"},{"startTime":3674.048,"endTime":3675.218,"body":"Occasionally you'll see that."},{"startTime":3675.218,"endTime":3678.288,"body":"If you're in the consulting business,"},{"startTime":3675.218,"endTime":3678.288,"body":"you know this to be true, you know."},{"startTime":3678.338,"endTime":3680.758,"body":"But the funny thing about this is"},{"startTime":3678.338,"endTime":3680.758,"body":"I hear so many people that work for"},{"startTime":3680.758,"endTime":3682.998,"body":"companies that have worked there a"},{"startTime":3680.758,"endTime":3682.998,"body":"long time and even just the other"},{"startTime":3682.998,"endTime":3686.228,"body":"night we heard someone say, Oh, I've"},{"startTime":3682.998,"endTime":3686.228,"body":"found myself becoming complacent."},{"startTime":3686.478,"endTime":3688.828,"body":"Cause you know, I was real comfortable"},{"startTime":3686.478,"endTime":3688.828,"body":"in the job, and I was in the flow, and"},{"startTime":3688.828,"endTime":3692.608,"body":"everything was great and yeah, you just"},{"startTime":3688.828,"endTime":3692.608,"body":"kinda, I don't know if I have anything"},{"startTime":3692.608,"endTime":3696.848,"body":"solid to say about, I, I, I don't, I'm"},{"startTime":3692.608,"endTime":3696.848,"body":"not trying to make a statement about,"},{"startTime":3696.848,"endTime":3699.728,"body":"the worst aspects of corporate America,"},{"startTime":3696.848,"endTime":3699.728,"body":"the predatory aspects of corporate"},{"startTime":3699.728,"endTime":3701.938,"body":"America, I'm not trying to make a"},{"startTime":3699.728,"endTime":3701.938,"body":"statement about that, I'm just saying"},{"startTime":3702.188,"endTime":3706.858,"body":"the, I've seen good companies regress"},{"startTime":3702.188,"endTime":3706.858,"body":"to this mean over time, so I really feel"},{"startTime":3706.858,"endTime":3710.948,"body":"that mean is a real thing, and it takes"},{"startTime":3706.858,"endTime":3710.948,"body":"effort of good people who are educated."},{"startTime":3711.343,"endTime":3714.683,"body":"And educated meaning they"},{"startTime":3711.343,"endTime":3714.683,"body":"constantly seek to bring in new"},{"startTime":3714.683,"endTime":3716.173,"body":"ideas, To educate themselves."},{"startTime":3716.483,"endTime":3722.163,"body":"And they're motivated to do that, to keep"},{"startTime":3716.483,"endTime":3722.163,"body":"the company above that line of the mean."},{"startTime":3722.413,"endTime":3725.303,"body":"But then when those people leave, or like"},{"startTime":3722.413,"endTime":3725.303,"body":"when the, when the, when the person's"},{"startTime":3725.303,"endTime":3728.093,"body":"sponsoring the agile transformation"},{"startTime":3725.303,"endTime":3728.093,"body":"that that VP or whatever goes away."},{"startTime":3728.143,"endTime":3731.838,"body":"Here it comes, the PMOs coming and"},{"startTime":3728.143,"endTime":3731.838,"body":"knocking on your door, you know?"},{"startTime":3732.088,"endTime":3735.618,"body":"And it goes back to the old ways"},{"startTime":3732.088,"endTime":3735.618,"body":"of working because your day-to-day"},{"startTime":3735.618,"endTime":3738.688,"body":"is basically controlled by the PMO."},{"startTime":3738.758,"endTime":3741.393,"body":"Under the guise of consistency"},{"startTime":3738.758,"endTime":3741.393,"body":"and standardization."},{"startTime":3741.398,"endTime":3742.798,"body":"Standardization, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":3742.798,"endTime":3743.158,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3743.158,"endTime":3743.998,"body":"Centralization."},{"startTime":3744.088,"endTime":3744.448,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3744.538,"endTime":3744.898,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3745.108,"endTime":3749.368,"body":"So unfortunately there's really"},{"startTime":3745.108,"endTime":3749.368,"body":"no quick no quick remedy all"},{"startTime":3749.368,"endTime":3751.018,"body":"of these are longer term plays."},{"startTime":3751.048,"endTime":3751.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3751.348,"endTime":3753.208,"body":"I feel like, but you"},{"startTime":3751.348,"endTime":3753.208,"body":"gotta start somewhere."},{"startTime":3753.413,"endTime":3758.143,"body":"And every company has somebody who's"},{"startTime":3753.413,"endTime":3758.143,"body":"willing to say, listen, enough, right?"},{"startTime":3758.173,"endTime":3758.943,"body":"We're going to do this."},{"startTime":3759.193,"endTime":3761.803,"body":"Typically what we say to people"},{"startTime":3759.193,"endTime":3761.803,"body":"when they talk about things like"},{"startTime":3762.123,"endTime":3764.873,"body":"Azure Transformation is that"},{"startTime":3762.123,"endTime":3764.873,"body":"it starts with the leadership."},{"startTime":3765.143,"endTime":3766.793,"body":"Well this ain't gonna"},{"startTime":3765.143,"endTime":3766.793,"body":"start with the leadership."},{"startTime":3766.863,"endTime":3769.383,"body":"Because the leadership didn't"},{"startTime":3766.863,"endTime":3769.383,"body":"get to those positions by"},{"startTime":3769.383,"endTime":3770.963,"body":"working in the new ways, right?"},{"startTime":3771.053,"endTime":3773.363,"body":"So grassroots probably is the key here."},{"startTime":3773.373,"endTime":3775.383,"body":"Somebody's gotta start this."},{"startTime":3775.453,"endTime":3777.053,"body":"Let's go, let's start this."},{"startTime":3777.333,"endTime":3780.843,"body":"Well that's why even in the Marty Cagan"},{"startTime":3777.333,"endTime":3780.843,"body":"book he says it starts at the very top."},{"startTime":3780.873,"endTime":3783.913,"body":"It starts with the CEO and the CEO only."},{"startTime":3784.223,"endTime":3786.913,"body":"And he probably, I mean Marty Cagan"},{"startTime":3784.223,"endTime":3786.913,"body":"can shotgun straight to the CEO of the"},{"startTime":3786.913,"endTime":3789.568,"body":"company and be like, Hey, if you're"},{"startTime":3786.913,"endTime":3789.568,"body":"not on board, We're not doing this."},{"startTime":3789.908,"endTime":3792.338,"body":"And then again, in the transform"},{"startTime":3789.908,"endTime":3792.338,"body":"book, he'll say it starts with,"},{"startTime":3792.348,"endTime":3795.328,"body":"it starts with the CEO, really"},{"startTime":3792.348,"endTime":3795.328,"body":"believing in buying in and supporting."},{"startTime":3795.538,"endTime":3798.158,"body":"We have to change our way of"},{"startTime":3795.538,"endTime":3798.158,"body":"working so that there's actual"},{"startTime":3798.168,"endTime":3799.178,"body":"constant pressure on it."},{"startTime":3799.448,"endTime":3803.168,"body":"And then you can train everybody and then"},{"startTime":3799.448,"endTime":3803.168,"body":"we can all collect our certs and whatever."},{"startTime":3803.418,"endTime":3806.178,"body":"Easy when it's described like"},{"startTime":3803.418,"endTime":3806.178,"body":"that, it does, doesn't it?"},{"startTime":3806.338,"endTime":3810.288,"body":"We would have lots of companies"},{"startTime":3806.338,"endTime":3810.288,"body":"already being transformed in this"},{"startTime":3810.288,"endTime":3813.708,"body":"way, because the CEO would be on"},{"startTime":3810.288,"endTime":3813.708,"body":"board or they'll get another CEO."},{"startTime":3813.878,"endTime":3817.408,"body":"That's not happening though, those"},{"startTime":3813.878,"endTime":3817.408,"body":"people are comfortable where they"},{"startTime":3817.408,"endTime":3822.658,"body":"are and to change like this, this is"},{"startTime":3817.408,"endTime":3822.658,"body":"a huge risk for the company, right?"},{"startTime":3822.718,"endTime":3824.218,"body":"They're accountable to the shareholders."},{"startTime":3824.643,"endTime":3826.173,"body":"They don't want to risk that."},{"startTime":3826.303,"endTime":3829.673,"body":"Occasionally you will get a ceo"},{"startTime":3826.303,"endTime":3829.673,"body":"who's avant garde He'll say let's"},{"startTime":3829.673,"endTime":3833.073,"body":"bring in marty Cagan as a consultant"},{"startTime":3829.673,"endTime":3833.073,"body":"Marty says starts with you man,"},{"startTime":3833.333,"endTime":3837.363,"body":"and then the ceo woman whatever and"},{"startTime":3833.333,"endTime":3837.363,"body":"the ceo says yeah, let's go, right?"},{"startTime":3837.363,"endTime":3841.373,"body":"So that is the top down but you're"},{"startTime":3837.363,"endTime":3841.373,"body":"gonna find that's a very very rare."},{"startTime":3841.453,"endTime":3846.628,"body":"Yeah, and b when marty leaves That"},{"startTime":3841.453,"endTime":3846.628,"body":"CEO is probably going to regress"},{"startTime":3846.668,"endTime":3850.838,"body":"because he's got to deliver this"},{"startTime":3846.668,"endTime":3850.838,"body":"to the shareholders right now"},{"startTime":3850.918,"endTime":3853.828,"body":"I mean either that or like what's"},{"startTime":3850.918,"endTime":3853.828,"body":"what's the what's the here?"},{"startTime":3853.878,"endTime":3854.948,"body":"Let's just go to Google."},{"startTime":3855.308,"endTime":3862.128,"body":"What is the tenure of a"},{"startTime":3855.308,"endTime":3862.128,"body":"typical corporate CEO?"},{"startTime":3862.598,"endTime":3866.323,"body":"According to recent data, the typical"},{"startTime":3862.598,"endTime":3866.323,"body":"tenure of a corporate CEO is about 5 to"},{"startTime":3866.323,"endTime":3870.548,"body":"7 years, with the median tenure of S\u0026"},{"startTime":3866.323,"endTime":3870.548,"body":"P 500 CEOs sitting at approximately 4."},{"startTime":3870.598,"endTime":3871.068,"body":"8 years."},{"startTime":3871.318,"endTime":3871.658,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3871.708,"endTime":3873.638,"body":"So, you get about 5 years."},{"startTime":3873.888,"endTime":3876.618,"body":"And let's, let's assume that"},{"startTime":3873.888,"endTime":3876.618,"body":"some of that 5 years is spent"},{"startTime":3876.628,"endTime":3877.728,"body":"realizing there's a problem."},{"startTime":3877.898,"endTime":3879.798,"body":"Some of that 5 years is spent learning."},{"startTime":3880.198,"endTime":3882.438,"body":"What agile ways of working"},{"startTime":3880.198,"endTime":3882.438,"body":"are and why they're wrong."},{"startTime":3882.438,"endTime":3885.388,"body":"And if they're even open to"},{"startTime":3882.438,"endTime":3885.388,"body":"understanding that they're wrong."},{"startTime":3885.748,"endTime":3889.218,"body":"And then some of that  five years"},{"startTime":3885.748,"endTime":3889.218,"body":"is spent figuring out the right mix"},{"startTime":3889.218,"endTime":3890.448,"body":"that works for your organization."},{"startTime":3890.878,"endTime":3891.808,"body":"And before you know it."},{"startTime":3892.058,"endTime":3895.878,"body":"It's time to go time to move on and then"},{"startTime":3892.058,"endTime":3895.878,"body":"you're gonna take your learnings  to"},{"startTime":3895.878,"endTime":3899.418,"body":"your next company Whatever company that"},{"startTime":3895.878,"endTime":3899.418,"body":"is and then a new guy's gonna come in."},{"startTime":3899.668,"endTime":3902.808,"body":"We're gonna organizationally get"},{"startTime":3899.668,"endTime":3902.808,"body":"completely reset  I think this is a"},{"startTime":3902.808,"endTime":3906.018,"body":"very real phenomenon that probably"},{"startTime":3902.808,"endTime":3906.018,"body":"needs to be studied and then we can"},{"startTime":3906.018,"endTime":3909.368,"body":"at least come up with the building"},{"startTime":3906.018,"endTime":3909.368,"body":"blocks of  what education needs to"},{"startTime":3909.378,"endTime":3911.058,"body":"be put in place and where and how."},{"startTime":3911.308,"endTime":3914.218,"body":"If I had a few more years, I would"},{"startTime":3911.308,"endTime":3914.218,"body":"possibly study organizational"},{"startTime":3914.238,"endTime":3915.968,"body":"culture, organizational design."},{"startTime":3916.018,"endTime":3918.168,"body":"I mean, those topics are fascinating."},{"startTime":3918.668,"endTime":3920.428,"body":"But sadly today is the last day on earth."},{"startTime":3920.678,"endTime":3921.293,"body":"Today, yes."},{"startTime":3921.733,"endTime":3926.413,"body":"It's today's the last day when I feel"},{"startTime":3921.733,"endTime":3926.413,"body":"like studying, it's a lifelong pursuit."},{"startTime":3926.963,"endTime":3927.163,"body":"Om."},{"startTime":3927.273,"endTime":3928.315,"body":"It's a lifelong pursuit.."},{"startTime":3928.315,"endTime":3931.96,"body":"Let's be positive and move on to"},{"startTime":3928.315,"endTime":3931.96,"body":"something that I'd like to talk about."},{"startTime":3931.96,"endTime":3936.102,"body":"And probably one of the last things to"},{"startTime":3931.96,"endTime":3936.102,"body":"talk about, which is emotional damage."},{"startTime":3936.391,"endTime":3937.801,"body":"Let's see if you can insert that on me."},{"startTime":3937.801,"endTime":3939.099,"body":"EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!"},{"startTime":3939.099,"endTime":3941.045,"body":"Let's be real."},{"startTime":3941.045,"endTime":3942.324,"body":"Oh, man."},{"startTime":3942.342,"endTime":3944.279,"body":"It's going This guy's hilarious."},{"startTime":3944.579,"endTime":3948.159,"body":"cause like this is one that, that this"},{"startTime":3944.579,"endTime":3948.159,"body":"one and the podcast that we did on"},{"startTime":3948.209,"endTime":3952.909,"body":"Cognitive Load, I think this honestly, I"},{"startTime":3948.209,"endTime":3952.909,"body":"think this belongs in it's own podcast."},{"startTime":3953.229,"endTime":3955.309,"body":"I want to just skip"},{"startTime":3953.229,"endTime":3955.309,"body":"off the top of it here."},{"startTime":3955.559,"endTime":3956.339,"body":"Cognitive Load."},{"startTime":3956.589,"endTime":3960.729,"body":"Just like facilitation skill, everyone"},{"startTime":3956.589,"endTime":3960.729,"body":"wants employees to return to the office."},{"startTime":3960.979,"endTime":3964.969,"body":"But when you get there, it's like cubes"},{"startTime":3960.979,"endTime":3964.969,"body":"and there's not enough cubes for people."},{"startTime":3964.969,"endTime":3969.029,"body":"So some people are sitting at like tables"},{"startTime":3964.969,"endTime":3969.029,"body":"off on the side, like their little laptop."},{"startTime":3969.079,"endTime":3971.509,"body":"Whereas at home, like I've"},{"startTime":3969.079,"endTime":3971.509,"body":"been working at home for years."},{"startTime":3971.729,"endTime":3974.289,"body":"I got a great desk, goes up"},{"startTime":3971.729,"endTime":3974.289,"body":"and down, stand up, whatever."},{"startTime":3974.289,"endTime":3976.259,"body":"I got a super comfortable office chair."},{"startTime":3976.439,"endTime":3980.329,"body":"I got giant monitors, a dock that works"},{"startTime":3976.439,"endTime":3980.329,"body":"with all my electronics and everything."},{"startTime":3980.359,"endTime":3981.649,"body":"Batteries, everything within reach."},{"startTime":3981.899,"endTime":3984.379,"body":"Why am I going to go in the office,"},{"startTime":3981.899,"endTime":3984.379,"body":"and then, and I go in the office and"},{"startTime":3984.379,"endTime":3985.899,"body":"get on remote calls all day long."},{"startTime":3986.069,"endTime":3988.649,"body":"Like, if I'm going to go in the office,"},{"startTime":3986.069,"endTime":3988.649,"body":"it'd be nice if there was someone"},{"startTime":3988.649,"endTime":3993.529,"body":"there dedicated to facilitating and"},{"startTime":3988.649,"endTime":3993.529,"body":"making sure that all the employees"},{"startTime":3993.529,"endTime":3994.969,"body":"were engaged and, helping us."},{"startTime":3994.979,"endTime":3999.619,"body":"Helping us have a good time and helping"},{"startTime":3994.979,"endTime":3999.619,"body":"us take care of things when we need it."},{"startTime":3999.699,"endTime":4001.569,"body":"Or work through disagreements."},{"startTime":4001.759,"endTime":4003.629,"body":"Someone neutral that we all know and like."},{"startTime":4004.124,"endTime":4006.074,"body":"I mean, there are people like"},{"startTime":4004.124,"endTime":4006.074,"body":"this that I've worked with in the"},{"startTime":4006.074,"endTime":4007.554,"body":"past, there are very few of them."},{"startTime":4007.804,"endTime":4012.714,"body":"And also, these people get caught"},{"startTime":4007.804,"endTime":4012.714,"body":"when downturns happen because"},{"startTime":4012.714,"endTime":4015.724,"body":"you're like, Well, I'm not quite"},{"startTime":4012.714,"endTime":4015.724,"body":"sure I think we need more beast"},{"startTime":4015.724,"endTime":4017.164,"body":"mode or founder mode or whatever"},{"startTime":4017.164,"endTime":4017.934,"body":"The fad of the days."},{"startTime":4017.934,"endTime":4021.024,"body":"Whatever the fad of the, yeah, fad"},{"startTime":4017.934,"endTime":4021.024,"body":"du jour, I don't think we have a lot"},{"startTime":4021.024,"endTime":4023.754,"body":"of listeners, listeners in France,"},{"startTime":4021.024,"endTime":4023.754,"body":"but there you go, . Fad des jure."},{"startTime":4023.754,"endTime":4024.924,"body":"Fad des jure."},{"startTime":4025.234,"endTime":4028.144,"body":"I, I don't know, hopefully that doesn't"},{"startTime":4025.234,"endTime":4028.144,"body":"translate to something bad in French."},{"startTime":4028.374,"endTime":4034.394,"body":"But that, the other side of that is The"},{"startTime":4028.374,"endTime":4034.394,"body":"concept of technical debt in the way that"},{"startTime":4034.414,"endTime":4037.414,"body":"because it's the back of the house system,"},{"startTime":4034.414,"endTime":4037.414,"body":"we don't care about the user experience."},{"startTime":4037.414,"endTime":4041.254,"body":"So it's like 187 easy clicks to"},{"startTime":4037.414,"endTime":4041.254,"body":"perform a simple database task."},{"startTime":4041.254,"endTime":4041.714,"body":"Or, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4041.714,"endTime":4043.779,"body":"Like something like that, where we're."},{"startTime":4044.029,"endTime":4046.279,"body":"Or systems that we have to be like"},{"startTime":4044.029,"endTime":4046.279,"body":"up in the middle of the night."},{"startTime":4046.299,"endTime":4050.219,"body":"I remember, we moved into a building"},{"startTime":4046.299,"endTime":4050.219,"body":"and they converted a room in"},{"startTime":4050.219,"endTime":4051.319,"body":"the building into a data center."},{"startTime":4051.319,"endTime":4052.999,"body":"It wasn't supposed to be"},{"startTime":4051.319,"endTime":4052.999,"body":"a data center of the room."},{"startTime":4053.459,"endTime":4055.219,"body":"And it was, it was terrible."},{"startTime":4055.269,"endTime":4056.869,"body":"Was it whoever decided that like."},{"startTime":4057.119,"endTime":4058.819,"body":"They wanted to use that"},{"startTime":4057.119,"endTime":4058.819,"body":"room as a data center."},{"startTime":4058.919,"endTime":4061.269,"body":"It was terrible because the room"},{"startTime":4058.919,"endTime":4061.269,"body":"had no, it didn't have the proper"},{"startTime":4061.269,"endTime":4062.279,"body":"cooling to be a data center."},{"startTime":4062.279,"endTime":4063.559,"body":"You need like a lot of AC."},{"startTime":4063.569,"endTime":4063.919,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4064.039,"endTime":4065.839,"body":"You need a lot of floor possibly."},{"startTime":4065.999,"endTime":4068.809,"body":"For, so we had AC, but it"},{"startTime":4065.999,"endTime":4068.809,"body":"basically wouldn't keep up."},{"startTime":4068.809,"endTime":4071.719,"body":"So the AC would kept, it kept like"},{"startTime":4068.809,"endTime":4071.719,"body":"freezing up and stuff like that."},{"startTime":4071.719,"endTime":4073.659,"body":"And the system would call."},{"startTime":4074.094,"endTime":4075.564,"body":"Like automated notifications."},{"startTime":4075.564,"endTime":4077.714,"body":"This is back in the day, this"},{"startTime":4075.564,"endTime":4077.714,"body":"kind of stuff is like, isn't it?"},{"startTime":4077.724,"endTime":4080.404,"body":"The cloud now companies pay five"},{"startTime":4077.724,"endTime":4080.404,"body":"times more than they need you."},{"startTime":4080.404,"endTime":4083.844,"body":"And they, but they don't have to"},{"startTime":4080.404,"endTime":4083.844,"body":"worry about having one person on staff"},{"startTime":4083.854,"endTime":4084.854,"body":"that knows how to do all this stuff."},{"startTime":4084.874,"endTime":4090.464,"body":"Anyway I bring that story up, not to share"},{"startTime":4084.874,"endTime":4090.464,"body":"my emotional damage, but to say having"},{"startTime":4090.464,"endTime":4092.064,"body":"to deal with all those systems, like."},{"startTime":4092.314,"endTime":4094.014,"body":"Being like, we're not gonna"},{"startTime":4092.314,"endTime":4094.014,"body":"have this data center."},{"startTime":4094.014,"endTime":4095.624,"body":"We gotta, we gotta babysit all the time."},{"startTime":4095.634,"endTime":4097.544,"body":"And we gotta deal with hard drives"},{"startTime":4095.634,"endTime":4097.544,"body":"failing and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":4097.794,"endTime":4101.144,"body":"We're just gonna pay three times"},{"startTime":4097.794,"endTime":4101.144,"body":"more and then we'll have the cloud"},{"startTime":4101.144,"endTime":4102.354,"body":"and it'll always be available."},{"startTime":4102.604,"endTime":4105.994,"body":"There's a specific financial reason"},{"startTime":4102.604,"endTime":4105.994,"body":"of moving stuff from this line item"},{"startTime":4106.204,"endTime":4108.904,"body":"or moving stuff from this side of the"},{"startTime":4106.204,"endTime":4108.904,"body":"budget to this side of the budget,"},{"startTime":4108.904,"endTime":4110.644,"body":"reason why most companies do that."},{"startTime":4110.644,"endTime":4114.244,"body":"But putting that like"},{"startTime":4110.644,"endTime":4114.244,"body":"disingenuous reason aside."},{"startTime":4114.294,"endTime":4118.774,"body":"The other thing they get out of it"},{"startTime":4114.294,"endTime":4118.774,"body":"is they get to relieve that burden"},{"startTime":4118.774,"endTime":4121.824,"body":"of maintaining all that stuff,"},{"startTime":4118.774,"endTime":4121.824,"body":"all the worries and everything"},{"startTime":4121.824,"endTime":4122.739,"body":"about maintaining all that gear."},{"startTime":4122.989,"endTime":4124.599,"body":"All those worries are"},{"startTime":4122.989,"endTime":4124.599,"body":"gone from their employees."},{"startTime":4124.609,"endTime":4127.509,"body":"So , it's a cognitive load"},{"startTime":4124.609,"endTime":4127.509,"body":"lifted off their employees."},{"startTime":4127.759,"endTime":4132.879,"body":"Now translate that into technical debt"},{"startTime":4127.759,"endTime":4132.879,"body":"of like, I'm constantly worried that"},{"startTime":4132.889,"endTime":4134.229,"body":"the architecture is going to fall over."},{"startTime":4134.359,"endTime":4138.239,"body":"As I add features on top of my existing"},{"startTime":4134.359,"endTime":4138.239,"body":"platform without doing a big refactor"},{"startTime":4138.239,"endTime":4141.319,"body":"or something like that, it gets"},{"startTime":4138.239,"endTime":4141.319,"body":"harder and harder and harder to push."},{"startTime":4141.744,"endTime":4146.174,"body":"Changes and to keep the changes like I"},{"startTime":4141.744,"endTime":4146.174,"body":"got these and then add teams and I got"},{"startTime":4146.174,"endTime":4149.454,"body":"merge conflicts and all kinds of stuff"},{"startTime":4146.174,"endTime":4149.454,"body":"and you could say, well, modern software"},{"startTime":4149.454,"endTime":4151.994,"body":"development, you've got DevOps tools"},{"startTime":4149.454,"endTime":4151.994,"body":"and stuff and you can mitigate a lot"},{"startTime":4151.994,"endTime":4155.814,"body":"of this, which I agree with you,  until"},{"startTime":4151.994,"endTime":4155.814,"body":"the system grows to a certain size."},{"startTime":4156.314,"endTime":4160.144,"body":"And then you have the problems of Spotify"},{"startTime":4156.314,"endTime":4160.144,"body":"and Netflix and guys like this that"},{"startTime":4160.154,"endTime":4163.944,"body":"have like 500 APIs to do simple things."},{"startTime":4163.944,"endTime":4165.564,"body":"And some of those have documentation."},{"startTime":4165.784,"endTime":4168.784,"body":"Some of them don't, some of"},{"startTime":4165.784,"endTime":4168.784,"body":"them have teams that own things."},{"startTime":4168.794,"endTime":4170.664,"body":"Some of them are not owned"},{"startTime":4168.794,"endTime":4170.664,"body":"by the original team."},{"startTime":4170.914,"endTime":4172.794,"body":"Some of them, the original"},{"startTime":4170.914,"endTime":4172.794,"body":"team's not even there anymore."},{"startTime":4173.344,"endTime":4176.879,"body":"It makes your job less"},{"startTime":4173.344,"endTime":4176.879,"body":"enjoyable, is what I'll say."},{"startTime":4177.129,"endTime":4180.199,"body":"Yeah, not only that, I'd say,"},{"startTime":4177.129,"endTime":4180.199,"body":"well, yeah, sand on that."},{"startTime":4180.449,"endTime":4185.609,"body":"As time goes by, that technical"},{"startTime":4180.449,"endTime":4185.609,"body":"debt doesn't simply grow."},{"startTime":4186.059,"endTime":4187.499,"body":"It becomes more solid."},{"startTime":4187.519,"endTime":4189.689,"body":"It gets harder to chip away at it."},{"startTime":4189.749,"endTime":4191.109,"body":"Yeah it solidifies."},{"startTime":4191.119,"endTime":4192.639,"body":"So you've got to work hard now."},{"startTime":4192.889,"endTime":4193.639,"body":"To chip away at it."},{"startTime":4193.639,"endTime":4197.369,"body":"The best time to do it is to"},{"startTime":4193.639,"endTime":4197.369,"body":"avoid it in the first place."},{"startTime":4197.379,"endTime":4200.499,"body":"Let me, let me hit you with a, let me hit"},{"startTime":4197.379,"endTime":4200.499,"body":"you with a line that I wrote down when I"},{"startTime":4200.499,"endTime":4202.959,"body":"was feeling especially prophetic one day."},{"startTime":4203.209,"endTime":4206.239,"body":"And the line I wrote"},{"startTime":4203.209,"endTime":4206.239,"body":"down was, Legacy Systems."},{"startTime":4206.614,"endTime":4210.304,"body":"Reflect unaddressed communication"},{"startTime":4206.614,"endTime":4210.304,"body":"and leadership failure."},{"startTime":4210.554,"endTime":4211.944,"body":"Yeah, I mean, you're right."},{"startTime":4212.354,"endTime":4217.414,"body":"Unaddressed communication leadership"},{"startTime":4212.354,"endTime":4217.414,"body":"failure, and simply just, just the"},{"startTime":4217.414,"endTime":4219.164,"body":"lack of willingness to deal with it."},{"startTime":4219.304,"endTime":4223.374,"body":"You know, we've got other things to do"},{"startTime":4219.304,"endTime":4223.374,"body":"so we'll clean the house next weekend."},{"startTime":4223.874,"endTime":4225.094,"body":"Because we've got other things to do."},{"startTime":4225.094,"endTime":4227.744,"body":"And then sure enough, weekend comes"},{"startTime":4225.094,"endTime":4227.744,"body":"around, you've got more things to do."},{"startTime":4228.064,"endTime":4230.094,"body":"And so you'll defer that further."},{"startTime":4230.104,"endTime":4233.054,"body":"Yeah, so, there's two sides of like,"},{"startTime":4230.104,"endTime":4233.054,"body":"well, my house is always a mess."},{"startTime":4233.054,"endTime":4233.854,"body":"There's two sides of it."},{"startTime":4233.884,"endTime":4238.344,"body":"Number one, I'm not saying to the"},{"startTime":4233.884,"endTime":4238.344,"body":"other people in the house Hey, we're"},{"startTime":4238.344,"endTime":4240.874,"body":"all accountable, I'm not going to"},{"startTime":4238.344,"endTime":4240.874,"body":"be the only one cleaning the house."},{"startTime":4240.874,"endTime":4242.054,"body":"We all need to clean the house."},{"startTime":4242.464,"endTime":4244.294,"body":"That's a communication failure"},{"startTime":4242.464,"endTime":4244.294,"body":"if I don't bring that up."},{"startTime":4244.314,"endTime":4245.864,"body":"That goes back to our"},{"startTime":4244.314,"endTime":4245.864,"body":"crucial conversations."},{"startTime":4245.904,"endTime":4248.464,"body":"There are ways to bring it up"},{"startTime":4245.904,"endTime":4248.464,"body":"where you're not starting fights."},{"startTime":4248.714,"endTime":4251.784,"body":"Most people don't have those skills,"},{"startTime":4248.714,"endTime":4251.784,"body":"so they start a fight, and then they"},{"startTime":4251.824,"endTime":4254.494,"body":"just don't want to start a fight, so"},{"startTime":4251.824,"endTime":4254.494,"body":"they don't bring it up, and now it"},{"startTime":4254.494,"endTime":4256.794,"body":"festers, and it becomes , a big thing."},{"startTime":4256.894,"endTime":4260.364,"body":"Just the conversation by itself becomes"},{"startTime":4256.894,"endTime":4260.364,"body":"such a big thing that it's so painful"},{"startTime":4260.374,"endTime":4261.484,"body":"that nobody even wants to talk about it."},{"startTime":4261.494,"endTime":4265.434,"body":"And now you tiptoe around things that are"},{"startTime":4261.494,"endTime":4265.434,"body":"just like, you're, I, that you literally"},{"startTime":4265.434,"endTime":4268.974,"body":"are walking over every day, this is"},{"startTime":4265.434,"endTime":4268.974,"body":"the software equivalent thereof, right?"},{"startTime":4268.984,"endTime":4269.334,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":4269.344,"endTime":4272.604,"body":"The, the other side of that is leadership"},{"startTime":4269.344,"endTime":4272.604,"body":"failure, with proper leadership,"},{"startTime":4272.854,"endTime":4276.744,"body":"You should have never let your house"},{"startTime":4272.854,"endTime":4276.744,"body":"get like that in the first place."},{"startTime":4276.834,"endTime":4277.804,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":4277.984,"endTime":4278.474,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":4278.504,"endTime":4281.574,"body":"I mean, that's a, that's an analogy"},{"startTime":4278.504,"endTime":4281.574,"body":"that we can extend a bit now."},{"startTime":4281.754,"endTime":4284.694,"body":"So one of the things you could do"},{"startTime":4281.754,"endTime":4284.694,"body":"instead of saying, well, who's going"},{"startTime":4284.694,"endTime":4286.224,"body":"to clean the house, whose turn is it?"},{"startTime":4286.264,"endTime":4287.664,"body":"Let's create a roster, right?"},{"startTime":4287.994,"endTime":4289.284,"body":"How about everybody clean their own room?"},{"startTime":4289.704,"endTime":4293.374,"body":"And then we can get together"},{"startTime":4289.704,"endTime":4293.374,"body":"and decide maybe jointly"},{"startTime":4293.554,"endTime":4295.104,"body":"clean the common areas, right?"},{"startTime":4295.394,"endTime":4298.114,"body":"If you did that, you'd"},{"startTime":4295.394,"endTime":4298.114,"body":"always be on top of it."},{"startTime":4298.164,"endTime":4300.984,"body":"But the other thing is"},{"startTime":4298.164,"endTime":4300.984,"body":"for everyone involved."},{"startTime":4301.444,"endTime":4304.234,"body":"There isn't as much work because"},{"startTime":4301.444,"endTime":4304.234,"body":"you're doing it frequently, right?"},{"startTime":4304.484,"endTime":4308.464,"body":"So you then go extend out in time at"},{"startTime":4304.484,"endTime":4308.464,"body":"that point, any point in time, going"},{"startTime":4308.664,"endTime":4310.404,"body":"in the future, whenever it might be."},{"startTime":4310.654,"endTime":4314.614,"body":"Your house is only going to"},{"startTime":4310.654,"endTime":4314.614,"body":"be  certain level of mess and"},{"startTime":4314.614,"endTime":4316.334,"body":"it's not very messy, right?"},{"startTime":4316.754,"endTime":4321.054,"body":"Whereas the alternative by, like you"},{"startTime":4316.754,"endTime":4321.054,"body":"said, avoiding the hard conversations and"},{"startTime":4321.474,"endTime":4323.464,"body":"making decisions, taking accountability."},{"startTime":4323.814,"endTime":4325.654,"body":"It's just going to get"},{"startTime":4323.814,"endTime":4325.654,"body":"worse and worse and worse."},{"startTime":4325.804,"endTime":4327.174,"body":"Technical complexity."},{"startTime":4327.424,"endTime":4330.974,"body":"Meaning the system getting bigger and"},{"startTime":4327.424,"endTime":4330.974,"body":"bigger and getting unmaintainable and"},{"startTime":4330.974,"endTime":4333.354,"body":"unmaintainable because of this unaddressed"},{"startTime":4330.974,"endTime":4333.354,"body":"communication leadership failure."},{"startTime":4333.764,"endTime":4335.244,"body":"Basically, a failure of the system."},{"startTime":4335.494,"endTime":4337.644,"body":"And since only leadership"},{"startTime":4335.494,"endTime":4337.644,"body":"can change the system."},{"startTime":4337.894,"endTime":4339.404,"body":"Right, so that's where"},{"startTime":4337.894,"endTime":4339.404,"body":"I'm going with this."},{"startTime":4339.784,"endTime":4341.254,"body":"Your system gets more and more complex."},{"startTime":4341.454,"endTime":4342.974,"body":"There's never time to"},{"startTime":4341.454,"endTime":4342.974,"body":"work on technical debt."},{"startTime":4343.224,"endTime":4346.054,"body":"You can only patch bugs when"},{"startTime":4343.224,"endTime":4346.054,"body":"they're absolutely devastatingly"},{"startTime":4346.064,"endTime":4347.024,"body":"bringing everything down."},{"startTime":4347.289,"endTime":4349.949,"body":"The technical complexity, it"},{"startTime":4347.289,"endTime":4349.949,"body":"should have been resolved when it,"},{"startTime":4350.279,"endTime":4354.529,"body":"It got borderline bad or when it"},{"startTime":4350.279,"endTime":4354.529,"body":"wasn't finely tuned and optimized."},{"startTime":4354.779,"endTime":4355.929,"body":"And that just didn't happen."},{"startTime":4355.929,"endTime":4358.189,"body":"And now here we are years later"},{"startTime":4355.929,"endTime":4358.189,"body":"using all these tools that"},{"startTime":4358.209,"endTime":4359.589,"body":"are super difficult to use."},{"startTime":4359.779,"endTime":4361.829,"body":"And because it's internal"},{"startTime":4359.779,"endTime":4361.829,"body":"employees, we don't care we're"},{"startTime":4361.829,"endTime":4362.849,"body":"not going to put money into that."},{"startTime":4362.899,"endTime":4363.249,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4363.599,"endTime":4363.829,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4363.829,"endTime":4368.459,"body":"I think part of the reason why this"},{"startTime":4363.829,"endTime":4368.459,"body":"is also such in such a bad state is"},{"startTime":4368.469,"endTime":4372.799,"body":"you really don't have true architects"},{"startTime":4368.469,"endTime":4372.799,"body":"in, in the true sense of the word,"},{"startTime":4372.799,"endTime":4376.809,"body":"I don't want to talk about titles,"},{"startTime":4372.799,"endTime":4376.809,"body":"but somebody who really understands."},{"startTime":4377.104,"endTime":4381.344,"body":"The overall architecture who says,"},{"startTime":4377.104,"endTime":4381.344,"body":"listen, it's getting dirty now,"},{"startTime":4381.814,"endTime":4383.364,"body":"let's take time out, refactor."},{"startTime":4383.404,"endTime":4386.184,"body":"We don't have to stop everything,"},{"startTime":4383.404,"endTime":4386.184,"body":"but you can do bits at a time."},{"startTime":4386.634,"endTime":4388.934,"body":"And that way you keep it manageable."},{"startTime":4389.124,"endTime":4389.824,"body":"You don't have that."},{"startTime":4390.044,"endTime":4393.434,"body":"Sure, you have plenty of people with"},{"startTime":4390.044,"endTime":4393.434,"body":"the word architect in their title."},{"startTime":4393.714,"endTime":4396.464,"body":"it's to bring up enterprise"},{"startTime":4393.714,"endTime":4396.464,"body":"architect and go here is some"},{"startTime":4396.464,"endTime":4397.924,"body":"lines and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":4397.924,"endTime":4398.904,"body":"No, I'm not talking about that."},{"startTime":4398.904,"endTime":4401.684,"body":"I'm talking about thinking"},{"startTime":4398.904,"endTime":4401.684,"body":"through all the ilities, right?"},{"startTime":4401.894,"endTime":4404.654,"body":"What would happen if we"},{"startTime":4401.894,"endTime":4404.654,"body":"project forward our growth?"},{"startTime":4404.874,"endTime":4406.384,"body":"What would happen to our architecture?"},{"startTime":4406.634,"endTime":4408.454,"body":"And can we do something about that now?"},{"startTime":4408.624,"endTime":4408.854,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4409.354,"endTime":4409.964,"body":"That's lacking."},{"startTime":4410.454,"endTime":4412.169,"body":"I've met one good."},{"startTime":4412.419,"endTime":4416.989,"body":"Enterprise architect who did this by"},{"startTime":4412.419,"endTime":4416.989,"body":"the way he would move very slowly as"},{"startTime":4417.009,"endTime":4421.729,"body":"perceived by It as well as the business"},{"startTime":4417.009,"endTime":4421.729,"body":"for that matter But that was deliberate"},{"startTime":4422.099,"endTime":4425.299,"body":"he would move slowly and figure it out"},{"startTime":4422.099,"endTime":4425.299,"body":"and then he'd say this is what we need"},{"startTime":4425.319,"endTime":4429.429,"body":"to do  and the one time they trusted"},{"startTime":4425.319,"endTime":4429.429,"body":"him to do it They could see the benefit"},{"startTime":4429.669,"endTime":4434.509,"body":"going forward because we did scale up"},{"startTime":4429.669,"endTime":4434.509,"body":"the usage and it it was swimmingly well I"},{"startTime":4434.509,"endTime":4436.709,"body":"mean, it's like this guy knew what to do."},{"startTime":4437.099,"endTime":4440.719,"body":"Well, very few people like that exist"},{"startTime":4437.099,"endTime":4440.719,"body":"I was gonna say that's that's a hundred"},{"startTime":4440.719,"endTime":4442.819,"body":"percent more folks that I've ever seen."},{"startTime":4442.829,"endTime":4445.689,"body":"I'll hit you with another snippet of Zen"},{"startTime":4442.829,"endTime":4445.689,"body":"Let's see how you how you how you think"},{"startTime":4445.699,"endTime":4451.634,"body":"about this one the most expensive lines of"},{"startTime":4445.699,"endTime":4451.634,"body":"code are written Out of fear, not logic."},{"startTime":4451.884,"endTime":4453.664,"body":"Well, never a truer word has been spoken."},{"startTime":4453.934,"endTime":4455.564,"body":"I fully agree."},{"startTime":4455.814,"endTime":4458.844,"body":"For any of y'all out there not doing"},{"startTime":4455.814,"endTime":4458.844,"body":"TDD and you're like, I don't need"},{"startTime":4458.844,"endTime":4463.967,"body":"TDD I don't know man, TDD seems like"},{"startTime":4458.844,"endTime":4463.967,"body":"a logical way of writing most stuff."},{"startTime":4464.227,"endTime":4466.977,"body":"Whereas like error handling in"},{"startTime":4464.227,"endTime":4466.977,"body":"most development that I have"},{"startTime":4466.977,"endTime":4469.037,"body":"seen is done because bugs happen"},{"startTime":4469.087,"endTime":4472.177,"body":"When something goes wrong, they go,"},{"startTime":4469.087,"endTime":4472.177,"body":"let's figure out what's gone wrong."},{"startTime":4472.187,"endTime":4473.027,"body":"Let's check the logs."},{"startTime":4473.277,"endTime":4473.857,"body":"Oh, we don't log that."},{"startTime":4474.107,"endTime":4477.967,"body":"Okay so I agree with you that this is"},{"startTime":4474.107,"endTime":4477.967,"body":"something that people aren't taught."},{"startTime":4478.007,"endTime":4479.187,"body":"I don't think right."},{"startTime":4479.267,"endTime":4482.807,"body":"TDD, BDD, like really thinking"},{"startTime":4479.267,"endTime":4482.807,"body":"about what you're doing as"},{"startTime":4482.807,"endTime":4484.407,"body":"opposed to get it done now."},{"startTime":4484.627,"endTime":4486.107,"body":"So you take shortcuts, right?"},{"startTime":4486.167,"endTime":4490.187,"body":"And supposedly some people are"},{"startTime":4486.167,"endTime":4490.187,"body":"using what they call advanced"},{"startTime":4490.197,"endTime":4491.867,"body":"techniques by using things like."},{"startTime":4492.362,"endTime":4493.882,"body":"feature toggles and whatnot."},{"startTime":4494.182,"endTime":4496.802,"body":"But if you look at their code,"},{"startTime":4494.182,"endTime":4496.802,"body":"you're going to find a lot of."},{"startTime":4497.257,"endTime":4501.687,"body":"Debris in the code meaning feature toggles"},{"startTime":4497.257,"endTime":4501.687,"body":"that should have been deprecated They're"},{"startTime":4501.687,"endTime":4506.477,"body":"not even in the play anymore, but they're"},{"startTime":4501.687,"endTime":4506.477,"body":"there right so they get in the way and"},{"startTime":4506.477,"endTime":4509.847,"body":"yeah, there are tools out there that help"},{"startTime":4506.477,"endTime":4509.847,"body":"you but They're not widely used either."},{"startTime":4509.937,"endTime":4514.367,"body":"So yeah, there's a lot here Again,"},{"startTime":4509.937,"endTime":4514.367,"body":"the most expensive lines of code"},{"startTime":4514.447,"endTime":4516.497,"body":"written in fear and not logic."},{"startTime":4516.827,"endTime":4518.097,"body":"Imagine, think about that."},{"startTime":4518.097,"endTime":4519.957,"body":"Got to get that release out."},{"startTime":4519.957,"endTime":4521.507,"body":"Om, I need it out."},{"startTime":4521.507,"endTime":4523.957,"body":"Or what date, what day is it today?"},{"startTime":4523.957,"endTime":4525.837,"body":"I need it out by the end of today right."},{"startTime":4526.087,"endTime":4529.627,"body":"And then tomorrow is never,"},{"startTime":4526.087,"endTime":4529.627,"body":"there's never time to look back"},{"startTime":4529.677,"endTime":4531.882,"body":"and , remedy the shortcuts we took."},{"startTime":4532.282,"endTime":4534.092,"body":"There's never time because"},{"startTime":4532.282,"endTime":4534.092,"body":"there's another release due."},{"startTime":4534.272,"endTime":4536.892,"body":"I was going to make a joke about"},{"startTime":4534.272,"endTime":4536.892,"body":"there's plenty of time zones."},{"startTime":4536.892,"endTime":4539.462,"body":"So if you just have like developers"},{"startTime":4536.892,"endTime":4539.462,"body":"in every time zone, you can"},{"startTime":4539.462,"endTime":4541.002,"body":"just keep working 24 seven."},{"startTime":4541.002,"endTime":4542.332,"body":"Well, that was the premise for offshore."},{"startTime":4542.332,"endTime":4546.082,"body":"And you can squeeze more out"},{"startTime":4542.332,"endTime":4546.082,"body":"of your day but it's not true."},{"startTime":4546.332,"endTime":4547.612,"body":"But attempts have been made."},{"startTime":4547.632,"endTime":4550.472,"body":"I have worked with people that think"},{"startTime":4547.632,"endTime":4550.472,"body":"that they're like, I want to have"},{"startTime":4550.472,"endTime":4552.562,"body":"my developers working 24 seven."},{"startTime":4552.952,"endTime":4556.712,"body":"So I want to park people in whatever"},{"startTime":4552.952,"endTime":4556.712,"body":"Eastern Europe or somewhere like that."},{"startTime":4556.712,"endTime":4557.822,"body":"And then people in Asia."},{"startTime":4558.117,"endTime":4561.547,"body":"And then have folks in South and"},{"startTime":4558.117,"endTime":4561.547,"body":"North America or something like that."},{"startTime":4561.547,"endTime":4565.287,"body":"So they basically have developers"},{"startTime":4561.547,"endTime":4565.287,"body":"every like six or so time zones."},{"startTime":4565.287,"endTime":4569.807,"body":"If you're running, like knocking out"},{"startTime":4565.287,"endTime":4569.807,"body":"FinTech widgets, like why, what does"},{"startTime":4569.807,"endTime":4573.747,"body":"24 hours have to do with doing the"},{"startTime":4569.807,"endTime":4573.747,"body":"best, like producing the best code?"},{"startTime":4573.997,"endTime":4574.437,"body":"It doesn't."},{"startTime":4574.687,"endTime":4575.237,"body":"It really doesn't."},{"startTime":4575.267,"endTime":4577.637,"body":"I mean, unless you're constantly"},{"startTime":4575.267,"endTime":4577.637,"body":"squeezing your team to like,"},{"startTime":4577.677,"endTime":4579.147,"body":"produce faster, produce faster."},{"startTime":4579.147,"endTime":4580.767,"body":"There you may have something, right?"},{"startTime":4580.797,"endTime":4585.497,"body":"Because the 24 7, that started this"},{"startTime":4580.797,"endTime":4585.497,"body":"whole offshoring phenomenon yeah."},{"startTime":4585.527,"endTime":4588.907,"body":"Code is always in somebody's"},{"startTime":4585.527,"endTime":4588.907,"body":"hands, every minute of the day."},{"startTime":4588.977,"endTime":4589.177,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4589.217,"endTime":4589.667,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4589.977,"endTime":4591.487,"body":"So then what happened after that?"},{"startTime":4591.817,"endTime":4593.247,"body":"Fast forward to like, now."},{"startTime":4593.267,"endTime":4594.577,"body":"What's going on now, right?"},{"startTime":4595.017,"endTime":4599.607,"body":"People are being asked to stay in"},{"startTime":4595.017,"endTime":4599.607,"body":"different time zones that they live in"},{"startTime":4599.977,"endTime":4602.237,"body":"so that they can have coverage, right."},{"startTime":4602.487,"endTime":4605.177,"body":"So you have offshore people"},{"startTime":4602.487,"endTime":4605.177,"body":"that are working U. S. hours."},{"startTime":4605.277,"endTime":4609.127,"body":"We just so that we would have"},{"startTime":4605.277,"endTime":4609.127,"body":"overlap with them at least most"},{"startTime":4609.127,"endTime":4612.487,"body":"of the day but then yeah, these"},{"startTime":4609.127,"endTime":4612.487,"body":"applications that they're building are."},{"startTime":4612.787,"endTime":4614.857,"body":"Really, life and death application."},{"startTime":4615.017,"endTime":4616.757,"body":"Also that's not the way development works."},{"startTime":4616.757,"endTime":4619.727,"body":"I'm going to open a program and start"},{"startTime":4616.757,"endTime":4619.727,"body":"typing something, and then at the end"},{"startTime":4619.727,"endTime":4622.967,"body":"of my work day in eight hours, I'm going"},{"startTime":4619.727,"endTime":4622.967,"body":"to hand it off to the, whatever, hand"},{"startTime":4622.967,"endTime":4626.737,"body":"it off to the, well, which way, sorry,"},{"startTime":4622.967,"endTime":4626.737,"body":"I was like, which way is the earth turn?"},{"startTime":4626.987,"endTime":4629.607,"body":"You know, at the end of my day, I'm"},{"startTime":4626.987,"endTime":4629.607,"body":"going to hand it off to the India"},{"startTime":4629.607,"endTime":4633.527,"body":"folks that are just coming online,  to"},{"startTime":4629.607,"endTime":4633.527,"body":"somebody that's halfway across the"},{"startTime":4633.527,"endTime":4637.957,"body":"world and they're going to be able"},{"startTime":4633.527,"endTime":4637.957,"body":"to pick up exactly as well as I was."},{"startTime":4638.207,"endTime":4640.752,"body":"I don't know, like maybe,"},{"startTime":4638.207,"endTime":4640.752,"body":"maybe there's maybe like, Okay."},{"startTime":4640.753,"endTime":4644.742,"body":"AI enhancements and stuff like"},{"startTime":4640.753,"endTime":4644.742,"body":"that will make this more possible."},{"startTime":4644.832,"endTime":4645.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4645.102,"endTime":4649.372,"body":"So I'm trying to sell you that you need to"},{"startTime":4645.102,"endTime":4649.372,"body":"hire developers in all of our development"},{"startTime":4649.402,"endTime":4653.452,"body":"centers across the world, just so code"},{"startTime":4649.402,"endTime":4653.452,"body":"can be in someone's hands 24 seven."},{"startTime":4653.452,"endTime":4654.652,"body":"Like why?"},{"startTime":4654.862,"endTime":4655.162,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4655.232,"endTime":4655.992,"body":"That's a good question."},{"startTime":4655.992,"endTime":4656.312,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":4656.362,"endTime":4656.652,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":4656.702,"endTime":4660.482,"body":"Maybe that, that could be a contributory"},{"startTime":4656.702,"endTime":4660.482,"body":"factor to all this tech that we"},{"startTime":4660.482,"endTime":4663.492,"body":"built up because people don't have"},{"startTime":4660.482,"endTime":4663.492,"body":"the same understanding of the code."},{"startTime":4663.732,"endTime":4665.212,"body":"They also don't work the same way."},{"startTime":4665.242,"endTime":4665.522,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4665.612,"endTime":4668.202,"body":"So maybe that's something"},{"startTime":4665.612,"endTime":4668.202,"body":"that contributed to."},{"startTime":4668.662,"endTime":4669.912,"body":"The state of that code now,"},{"startTime":4670.032,"endTime":4673.612,"body":"I think Probably some big companies"},{"startTime":4670.032,"endTime":4673.612,"body":"started with a fad of like offshoring"},{"startTime":4673.622,"endTime":4677.872,"body":"their call center to whatever country"},{"startTime":4673.622,"endTime":4677.872,"body":"and like look at all the money we saved"},{"startTime":4677.872,"endTime":4681.992,"body":"on paper And nobody ever dug into any"},{"startTime":4677.872,"endTime":4681.992,"body":"details or like follow those companies"},{"startTime":4681.992,"endTime":4687.892,"body":"over five years And like, but the fad of"},{"startTime":4681.992,"endTime":4687.892,"body":"the, the, the being afraid of being left"},{"startTime":4687.892,"endTime":4691.792,"body":"out kind of permeated through the market"},{"startTime":4687.892,"endTime":4691.792,"body":"just like again with the layoffs and with"},{"startTime":4691.852,"endTime":4696.492,"body":"AI and blockchain and every other fad,"},{"startTime":4691.852,"endTime":4696.492,"body":"like layoffs are a fad, except layoffs,"},{"startTime":4696.902,"endTime":4700.102,"body":"layoffs are a fad, but they actually have"},{"startTime":4696.902,"endTime":4700.102,"body":"a dangerous side because layoffs have"},{"startTime":4700.102,"endTime":4705.902,"body":"the unintended, or I guess it probably is"},{"startTime":4700.102,"endTime":4705.902,"body":"intended consequence of also like lowering"},{"startTime":4705.912,"endTime":4708.763,"body":"the salaries for the whole market."},{"startTime":4708.773,"endTime":4711.793,"body":"So it's a way to keep salaries in"},{"startTime":4708.773,"endTime":4711.793,"body":"control as well as make your company"},{"startTime":4711.803,"endTime":4714.493,"body":"stock look good when you fire everyone"},{"startTime":4711.803,"endTime":4714.493,"body":"near the end of the quarter before"},{"startTime":4714.493,"endTime":4716.713,"body":"you report and then hire everyone."},{"startTime":4716.733,"endTime":4716.903,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4716.903,"endTime":4718.013,"body":"Hire back at the, yeah."},{"startTime":4718.263,"endTime":4718.393,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4718.553,"endTime":4722.033,"body":"I guess this is the part of the"},{"startTime":4718.553,"endTime":4722.033,"body":"podcast where I make I make sweeping."},{"startTime":4722.258,"endTime":4725.308,"body":"Accusatory statements because the"},{"startTime":4722.258,"endTime":4725.308,"body":"other sweeping accusatory statement I"},{"startTime":4725.308,"endTime":4729.418,"body":"was gonna say is remember in the, in"},{"startTime":4725.308,"endTime":4729.418,"body":"the, remember, like you, like you were"},{"startTime":4729.418,"endTime":4732.988,"body":"there in the era of Taylorism, for"},{"startTime":4729.418,"endTime":4732.988,"body":"example boy, this is gonna be a zinger."},{"startTime":4732.998,"endTime":4736.138,"body":"I you know if I have to set it up,"},{"startTime":4732.998,"endTime":4736.138,"body":"it's gonna be a good, it's gonna"},{"startTime":4736.138,"endTime":4737.308,"body":"be a zinger and it's gonna be good."},{"startTime":4737.678,"endTime":4741.178,"body":"In the era of Taylorism, if you"},{"startTime":4737.678,"endTime":4741.178,"body":"physically could not carry Pig Iron"},{"startTime":4741.178,"endTime":4743.548,"body":"to the train you didn't get paid."},{"startTime":4743.943,"endTime":4746.243,"body":"If you don't work, you don't get paid."},{"startTime":4746.493,"endTime":4746.833,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":4746.843,"endTime":4748.143,"body":"And I'm talking hard manual labor."},{"startTime":4748.143,"endTime":4751.513,"body":"So if there's an accident or something,"},{"startTime":4748.143,"endTime":4751.513,"body":"someone drops a picket iron and"},{"startTime":4751.513,"endTime":4755.743,"body":"breaks your foot, and you quite"},{"startTime":4751.513,"endTime":4755.743,"body":"literally cannot walk okay, get out."},{"startTime":4755.853,"endTime":4757.083,"body":"You're out on your own."},{"startTime":4757.313,"endTime":4757.533,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":4757.583,"endTime":4760.713,"body":"You got no money to pay rent, , the"},{"startTime":4757.583,"endTime":4760.713,"body":"company doesn't care clearly, you"},{"startTime":4760.713,"endTime":4762.543,"body":"can't check the box on the checklist."},{"startTime":4762.973,"endTime":4763.573,"body":"You're out."},{"startTime":4763.823,"endTime":4767.643,"body":"And we got tons of uneducated"},{"startTime":4763.823,"endTime":4767.643,"body":"workers that are in line every day."},{"startTime":4767.958,"endTime":4772.788,"body":"To replace you with that was that was"},{"startTime":4767.958,"endTime":4772.788,"body":"then right that was the reality of then"},{"startTime":4772.918,"endTime":4777.248,"body":"like the reality now is like if you're"},{"startTime":4772.918,"endTime":4777.248,"body":"not constantly connected like you dip"},{"startTime":4777.258,"endTime":4781.918,"body":"that you don't come to the office work"},{"startTime":4777.258,"endTime":4781.918,"body":"there for eight hours go home and are"},{"startTime":4781.918,"endTime":4785.488,"body":"completely unplugged from the office"},{"startTime":4781.918,"endTime":4785.488,"body":"like that's not a thing anymore you"},{"startTime":4785.488,"endTime":4790.218,"body":"know if you were not If you don't"},{"startTime":4785.488,"endTime":4790.218,"body":"have work, email on your phone, your"},{"startTime":4790.218,"endTime":4793.968,"body":"calendar, on your phone, whatever, slack"},{"startTime":4790.218,"endTime":4793.968,"body":"or Messenger or whatever, TE teams or"},{"startTime":4793.968,"endTime":4795.678,"body":"whatever terrible tools that you use."},{"startTime":4795.888,"endTime":4797.778,"body":"Like if you don't have all that stuff"},{"startTime":4795.888,"endTime":4797.778,"body":"on your phone where you're connected"},{"startTime":4797.778,"endTime":4802.098,"body":"twenty four seven like you're going to"},{"startTime":4797.778,"endTime":4802.098,"body":"be looked down on at most companies like"},{"startTime":4802.098,"endTime":4806.818,"body":"this, this, this constant connectivity,"},{"startTime":4802.098,"endTime":4806.818,"body":"constantly being able to get in"},{"startTime":4806.818,"endTime":4809.258,"body":"touch with you to basically demand"},{"startTime":4806.818,"endTime":4809.258,"body":"something of you, you probably, right?"},{"startTime":4809.258,"endTime":4809.348,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4809.558,"endTime":4813.098,"body":"This is the new norm and it's"},{"startTime":4809.558,"endTime":4813.098,"body":"it's kind of exploitative."},{"startTime":4813.348,"endTime":4814.348,"body":"Definitely, definitely."},{"startTime":4814.348,"endTime":4816.988,"body":"I think you have to draw the"},{"startTime":4814.348,"endTime":4816.988,"body":"lines as an individual if you can."},{"startTime":4816.988,"endTime":4819.348,"body":"I mean, you wouldn't find me after hours."},{"startTime":4819.548,"endTime":4821.308,"body":"But, but you're right about that."},{"startTime":4821.528,"endTime":4825.628,"body":"And here's an example of how"},{"startTime":4821.528,"endTime":4825.628,"body":"pervasive this had become."},{"startTime":4825.788,"endTime":4826.408,"body":"Still is."},{"startTime":4826.668,"endTime":4831.048,"body":"People that are here on visas working"},{"startTime":4826.668,"endTime":4831.048,"body":"and especially in California you"},{"startTime":4831.048,"endTime":4832.228,"body":"know, in these big tech companies."},{"startTime":4832.308,"endTime":4832.498,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4832.918,"endTime":4835.448,"body":"They live in these huge campuses, right?"},{"startTime":4835.678,"endTime":4837.838,"body":"In these big buildings and on campuses."},{"startTime":4838.118,"endTime":4843.548,"body":"And They're completely connected all the"},{"startTime":4838.118,"endTime":4843.548,"body":"time, so when they get to work, there's"},{"startTime":4843.548,"endTime":4845.498,"body":"maybe an hour's commute to get to work."},{"startTime":4845.748,"endTime":4847.308,"body":"You don't get to sleep on the bus."},{"startTime":4847.338,"endTime":4848.318,"body":"The bus has Wi Fi."},{"startTime":4848.328,"endTime":4849.358,"body":"Get to work, right?"},{"startTime":4849.398,"endTime":4851.358,"body":"You're working as soon"},{"startTime":4849.398,"endTime":4851.358,"body":"as you climb that bus."},{"startTime":4851.838,"endTime":4853.398,"body":"Same thing, tail end of the day."},{"startTime":4853.638,"endTime":4855.678,"body":"Well, middle of the"},{"startTime":4853.638,"endTime":4855.678,"body":"day, the same thing too."},{"startTime":4856.148,"endTime":4859.228,"body":"You're not going to go out to lunch"},{"startTime":4856.148,"endTime":4859.228,"body":"because we have great cafeterias,"},{"startTime":4859.418,"endTime":4860.878,"body":"it's fast get back to work."},{"startTime":4861.158,"endTime":4862.698,"body":"Oh, you need to go to the dry cleaners?"},{"startTime":4862.738,"endTime":4865.868,"body":"Don't worry, we have a dry"},{"startTime":4862.738,"endTime":4865.868,"body":"cleaners on campus, right?"},{"startTime":4865.888,"endTime":4867.668,"body":"So drop off your clothes,"},{"startTime":4865.888,"endTime":4867.668,"body":"get back to work."},{"startTime":4867.918,"endTime":4869.928,"body":"Same thing, haircuts, whatever."},{"startTime":4870.058,"endTime":4874.368,"body":"All of these things show you that"},{"startTime":4870.058,"endTime":4874.368,"body":"it's basically control the individual"},{"startTime":4874.478,"endTime":4878.038,"body":"to work, work, work because they're"},{"startTime":4874.478,"endTime":4878.038,"body":"on a fixed salary to begin with"},{"startTime":4878.038,"endTime":4880.778,"body":"and the more you squeeze them,"},{"startTime":4878.038,"endTime":4880.778,"body":"the more you hope to get out of."},{"startTime":4881.028,"endTime":4881.888,"body":"Terrible, really terrible."},{"startTime":4881.938,"endTime":4885.558,"body":"Yeah, well, I mean, that works"},{"startTime":4881.938,"endTime":4885.558,"body":"until you exhaust your labor pool."},{"startTime":4885.568,"endTime":4889.188,"body":"Again, the Tayloristic kind of instinct"},{"startTime":4885.568,"endTime":4889.188,"body":"once you exhaust your labor pool,"},{"startTime":4889.438,"endTime":4892.874,"body":"you have to go searching somewhere"},{"startTime":4889.438,"endTime":4892.874,"body":"else for let me put it a different"},{"startTime":4892.874,"endTime":4893.736,"body":"way, let me put it a different way."},{"startTime":4893.736,"endTime":4895.244,"body":"Once you get known for exploiting people"},{"startTime":4893.736,"endTime":4895.244,"body":"in a specific area, you gotta pick"},{"startTime":4895.244,"endTime":4898.513,"body":"up your bag, like the traveling snake"},{"startTime":4895.244,"endTime":4898.513,"body":"oil salesman like the old cartoons,"},{"startTime":4898.723,"endTime":4900.063,"body":"and you gotta go to a new town."},{"startTime":4900.538,"endTime":4903.778,"body":"Until they run you out of town like it's"},{"startTime":4900.538,"endTime":4903.778,"body":"an old Gunsmoke, is that what it was?"},{"startTime":4903.858,"endTime":4904.458,"body":"Remember that old show?"},{"startTime":4904.848,"endTime":4907.668,"body":"Like an old Gunsmoke episode, they have"},{"startTime":4904.848,"endTime":4907.668,"body":"to run you out of town And then they"},{"startTime":4907.668,"endTime":4911.148,"body":"run the, they run the snake oil salesman"},{"startTime":4907.668,"endTime":4911.148,"body":"out of town And then the episode ends"},{"startTime":4911.148,"endTime":4913.968,"body":"and they eat a sausage Or whatever,"},{"startTime":4911.148,"endTime":4913.968,"body":"I don't I don't remember that show I"},{"startTime":4913.968,"endTime":4917.188,"body":"was gonna say the A Team where they go"},{"startTime":4913.968,"endTime":4917.188,"body":"and run the land developer out of town"},{"startTime":4917.438,"endTime":4921.148,"body":"But This predatory kind of thing is"},{"startTime":4917.438,"endTime":4921.148,"body":"like, there's a lot of that in tech."},{"startTime":4921.178,"endTime":4922.978,"body":"There's a, I bring up a"},{"startTime":4921.178,"endTime":4922.978,"body":"lot of these examples."},{"startTime":4922.978,"endTime":4923.992,"body":"It sounds very negative."},{"startTime":4924.433,"endTime":4925.743,"body":"It can be avoided."},{"startTime":4925.783,"endTime":4927.133,"body":"You can't avoid these companies."},{"startTime":4927.463,"endTime":4930.503,"body":"If you're looking to make top dollar"},{"startTime":4927.463,"endTime":4930.503,"body":"and you want to make a bajillion"},{"startTime":4930.503,"endTime":4933.163,"body":"dollars a year or whatever, and you're"},{"startTime":4930.503,"endTime":4933.163,"body":"willing to sell your soul and just take"},{"startTime":4933.163,"endTime":4937.653,"body":"abuse and say yes sir all day I guess"},{"startTime":4933.163,"endTime":4937.653,"body":"if you're willing to do it, I guess."},{"startTime":4937.953,"endTime":4941.633,"body":"And I'm seeing a lot of people that are"},{"startTime":4937.953,"endTime":4941.633,"body":"willing to sign that deal with the devil."},{"startTime":4941.883,"endTime":4945.213,"body":"And there's tons of, they're,"},{"startTime":4941.883,"endTime":4945.213,"body":"it sounds like it's unavoidable."},{"startTime":4945.283,"endTime":4946.463,"body":"It is avoidable."},{"startTime":4946.603,"endTime":4947.633,"body":"It is avoidable."},{"startTime":4947.833,"endTime":4948.903,"body":"I think people do it."},{"startTime":4949.013,"endTime":4950.533,"body":"Like you said  quite a few people do it."},{"startTime":4950.533,"endTime":4954.553,"body":"And some people I've seen in their"},{"startTime":4950.533,"endTime":4954.553,"body":"younger years keel over through"},{"startTime":4954.553,"endTime":4956.413,"body":"pressure it affects your health."},{"startTime":4956.668,"endTime":4956.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4956.998,"endTime":4957.798,"body":"Is it worth it?"},{"startTime":4958.128,"endTime":4962.488,"body":"You know, I've seen people basically"},{"startTime":4958.128,"endTime":4962.488,"body":"die on the job in their thirties, right?"},{"startTime":4962.548,"endTime":4964.798,"body":"Leaving behind you know, a family."},{"startTime":4965.058,"endTime":4965.898,"body":"Is it worth it?"},{"startTime":4965.998,"endTime":4966.258,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4966.488,"endTime":4968.158,"body":"You decide for yourself, I suppose."},{"startTime":4968.408,"endTime":4970.578,"body":"Well, I like to end these"},{"startTime":4968.408,"endTime":4970.578,"body":"podcasts on a high note."},{"startTime":4970.628,"endTime":4972.068,"body":"Do we talk about a lot of stuff today?"},{"startTime":4972.108,"endTime":4975.378,"body":"all things that I want to talk about,"},{"startTime":4972.108,"endTime":4975.378,"body":"like I want to, normally we don't do a"},{"startTime":4975.378,"endTime":4979.518,"body":"wrap up in the podcast, but I feel we"},{"startTime":4975.378,"endTime":4979.518,"body":"talked about like rapid fire about so"},{"startTime":4979.518,"endTime":4983.778,"body":"many different things on the podcast"},{"startTime":4979.518,"endTime":4983.778,"body":"I want to change from the ordinary."},{"startTime":4983.778,"endTime":4988.498,"body":"I want to deviate from our Normal"},{"startTime":4983.778,"endTime":4988.498,"body":"way of doing things and I want"},{"startTime":4988.498,"endTime":4990.108,"body":"to kind of do a wrap up here."},{"startTime":4990.268,"endTime":4993.628,"body":"So on the internet today we"},{"startTime":4990.268,"endTime":4993.628,"body":"learned it's like Regression to"},{"startTime":4993.628,"endTime":4996.088,"body":"the mean is a real thing that we"},{"startTime":4993.628,"endTime":4996.088,"body":"probably need to watch out for"},{"startTime":4996.088,"endTime":4997.218,"body":"we named five, six things."},{"startTime":4997.378,"endTime":5000.508,"body":"I probably could come up with"},{"startTime":4997.378,"endTime":5000.508,"body":"easily a dozen things on that list."},{"startTime":5000.908,"endTime":5002.938,"body":"A lot of, like a lot of stuff"},{"startTime":5000.908,"endTime":5002.938,"body":"is tied up with the education."},{"startTime":5002.978,"endTime":5003.788,"body":"I guess we're going backwards."},{"startTime":5003.798,"endTime":5005.828,"body":"A lot of this stuff is tied into"},{"startTime":5003.798,"endTime":5005.828,"body":"the educational system, because"},{"startTime":5005.888,"endTime":5008.868,"body":"this is the carrot and the stick,"},{"startTime":5005.888,"endTime":5008.868,"body":"control, systems of control."},{"startTime":5009.118,"endTime":5011.118,"body":"Are really the only thing"},{"startTime":5009.118,"endTime":5011.118,"body":"that most people have known."},{"startTime":5011.128,"endTime":5014.268,"body":"Most people have not been put"},{"startTime":5011.128,"endTime":5014.268,"body":"in a situation where learning is"},{"startTime":5014.308,"endTime":5017.388,"body":"offered for the sake of learning"},{"startTime":5014.308,"endTime":5017.388,"body":"and the enjoyment of learning."},{"startTime":5017.398,"endTime":5020.168,"body":"And people might I'm interested"},{"startTime":5017.398,"endTime":5020.168,"body":"in people, if people are gonna"},{"startTime":5020.168,"endTime":5022.068,"body":"react poorly to me even saying"},{"startTime":5022.118,"endTime":5025.578,"body":"cause that's, that's how the old"},{"startTime":5022.118,"endTime":5025.578,"body":"Guard  that's how old ideas go out."},{"startTime":5025.588,"endTime":5027.858,"body":"they resist before they go out of style."},{"startTime":5028.288,"endTime":5029.438,"body":"And we're seeing that a lot."},{"startTime":5029.458,"endTime":5031.248,"body":"Like we see that a lot with"},{"startTime":5029.458,"endTime":5031.248,"body":"exploitation right now."},{"startTime":5031.248,"endTime":5034.128,"body":"Although we talked a lot about"},{"startTime":5031.248,"endTime":5034.128,"body":"exploitation in this podcast in tech,"},{"startTime":5034.138,"endTime":5038.188,"body":"cause exploitation is, and when you,"},{"startTime":5034.138,"endTime":5038.188,"body":"we trust me, we had a much deeper"},{"startTime":5038.188,"endTime":5042.708,"body":"conversation about H1B visas and like"},{"startTime":5038.188,"endTime":5042.708,"body":"this current situations and things that"},{"startTime":5042.708,"endTime":5046.648,"body":"I've seen, none of that is going to be"},{"startTime":5042.708,"endTime":5046.648,"body":"in this podcast because a lot of it Has"},{"startTime":5046.648,"endTime":5050.728,"body":"to do with policy and lots of stuff that"},{"startTime":5046.648,"endTime":5050.728,"body":"like is not in my realm of expertise,"},{"startTime":5050.968,"endTime":5054.408,"body":"nor do I really, if we actually wanted"},{"startTime":5050.968,"endTime":5054.408,"body":"to have somebody who's here in H 1B"},{"startTime":5054.408,"endTime":5058.528,"body":"visa on the podcast to talk through just"},{"startTime":5054.408,"endTime":5058.528,"body":"their experience, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":5058.548,"endTime":5061.378,"body":"And like what the real actual concerns"},{"startTime":5058.548,"endTime":5061.378,"body":"of somebody that was like, hey,"},{"startTime":5061.568,"endTime":5064.598,"body":"I know that it's exploitative and"},{"startTime":5061.568,"endTime":5064.598,"body":"whatever, , Here's how I manage that."},{"startTime":5064.848,"endTime":5067.128,"body":"That would be an interesting"},{"startTime":5064.848,"endTime":5067.128,"body":"podcast to dig into."},{"startTime":5067.508,"endTime":5069.658,"body":"We talked about being"},{"startTime":5067.508,"endTime":5069.658,"body":"careful about trends."},{"startTime":5070.033,"endTime":5072.573,"body":"We talked about the, certification"},{"startTime":5070.033,"endTime":5072.573,"body":"training mill, we talked about"},{"startTime":5072.603,"endTime":5076.093,"body":"blockchain and whatever other"},{"startTime":5072.603,"endTime":5076.093,"body":"fads,  whatever the fads that we"},{"startTime":5076.093,"endTime":5079.373,"body":"talked about, the Deming podcast had"},{"startTime":5076.093,"endTime":5079.373,"body":"a ton of fads that we called out."},{"startTime":5079.623,"endTime":5082.263,"body":"And then the lack of facilitation"},{"startTime":5079.623,"endTime":5082.263,"body":"skill, corporate America."},{"startTime":5082.688,"endTime":5085.498,"body":"We talked about the need for control"},{"startTime":5082.688,"endTime":5085.498,"body":"kind of permeating everything."},{"startTime":5085.748,"endTime":5088.588,"body":"Along with the carrot and"},{"startTime":5085.748,"endTime":5088.588,"body":"the stick and then we started"},{"startTime":5088.588,"endTime":5089.448,"body":"this podcast by talking about"},{"startTime":5089.698,"endTime":5090.344,"body":"recession proofing yourself in tech."},{"startTime":5090.344,"endTime":5090.861,"body":"Which can be done."},{"startTime":5090.861,"endTime":5091.895,"body":"You know, not easy, but can be done."},{"startTime":5091.895,"endTime":5092.542,"body":"It's a lot of work."},{"startTime":5092.542,"endTime":5093.728,"body":"I'd say it should be done."},{"startTime":5093.778,"endTime":5096.368,"body":"I mean, if you're serious about"},{"startTime":5093.778,"endTime":5096.368,"body":"your career, you should really be."},{"startTime":5096.608,"endTime":5097.708,"body":"spending time on this."},{"startTime":5097.768,"endTime":5099.488,"body":"some people come to a point"},{"startTime":5097.768,"endTime":5099.488,"body":"where they just don't want to"},{"startTime":5099.488,"endTime":5100.488,"body":"be on that treadmill anymore."},{"startTime":5100.558,"endTime":5102.712,"body":"They leave tech because they don't"},{"startTime":5100.558,"endTime":5102.712,"body":"want to be on that treadmill anymore."},{"startTime":5102.722,"endTime":5104.702,"body":"It is a treadmill, and then,"},{"startTime":5102.722,"endTime":5104.702,"body":"yeah because you're basically"},{"startTime":5104.702,"endTime":5106.212,"body":"invalidating your entire skill set."},{"startTime":5106.462,"endTime":5108.972,"body":"Every couple of years if you're"},{"startTime":5106.462,"endTime":5108.972,"body":"not learning the new stuff."},{"startTime":5109.142,"endTime":5109.652,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":5110.012,"endTime":5113.132,"body":"And, and those, that couple of years"},{"startTime":5110.012,"endTime":5113.132,"body":"is getting shorter and shorter."},{"startTime":5113.132,"endTime":5113.702,"body":"It's getting shorter."},{"startTime":5113.702,"endTime":5114.452,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":5114.562,"endTime":5114.922,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":5114.932,"endTime":5118.562,"body":"It's getting shorter and it's getting"},{"startTime":5114.932,"endTime":5118.562,"body":"like deeper, you know and then"},{"startTime":5118.562,"endTime":5122.192,"body":"I guess we'll wrap on leadership"},{"startTime":5118.562,"endTime":5122.192,"body":"is rare but Taylorism is not."},{"startTime":5122.442,"endTime":5124.542,"body":"Taylorism is ubiquitous leadership."},{"startTime":5124.572,"endTime":5127.782,"body":"True leadership is rare, but there's"},{"startTime":5124.572,"endTime":5127.782,"body":"plenty of management out there."},{"startTime":5128.032,"endTime":5129.482,"body":"Yeah, that's 20 years in tech."},{"startTime":5129.502,"endTime":5132.072,"body":"That's we kind of just went"},{"startTime":5129.502,"endTime":5132.072,"body":"all around the world there with"},{"startTime":5132.072,"endTime":5133.602,"body":"a little super quick wrap up."},{"startTime":5134.012,"endTime":5136.272,"body":"I feel like I should have"},{"startTime":5134.012,"endTime":5136.272,"body":"something prophetic to say at the"},{"startTime":5136.272,"endTime":5137.722,"body":"end of the podcast, but I don't."},{"startTime":5138.222,"endTime":5141.642,"body":"Well, in that case, I'm gonna just"},{"startTime":5138.222,"endTime":5141.642,"body":"lean back on what we always say."},{"startTime":5141.892,"endTime":5143.452,"body":"You know keep your resume updated"},{"startTime":5143.502,"endTime":5147.452,"body":"but if you like  this podcast send"},{"startTime":5143.502,"endTime":5147.452,"body":"it to a friend like, and subscribe."},{"startTime":5147.452,"endTime":5148.742,"body":"Every like, helps a channel."},{"startTime":5148.742,"endTime":5152.302,"body":"Every subscribe definitely helps a"},{"startTime":5148.742,"endTime":5152.302,"body":"channel and keep their resume updated."},{"startTime":5152.552,"endTime":5154.752,"body":"Who knew a 20 year review"},{"startTime":5152.552,"endTime":5154.752,"body":"couldn't fit in one hour"},{"startTime":5155.082,"endTime":5156.572,"body":"20, I think we both knew that."},{"startTime":5156.572,"endTime":5158.072,"body":"I just, I just didn't want to believe it"}]}