{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.03,"endTime":3.42,"body":"I want to talk to you about this that"},{"startTime":0.03,"endTime":3.42,"body":"I just put on the screen, the double"},{"startTime":3.42,"endTime":7.58,"body":"diamond for the problem space and the"},{"startTime":3.42,"endTime":7.58,"body":"solution space or the discovery space"},{"startTime":7.75,"endTime":11.19,"body":"and the delivery space and I want"},{"startTime":7.75,"endTime":11.19,"body":"to talk to you about this because."},{"startTime":11.54,"endTime":14.19,"body":"I think this is terrible and I"},{"startTime":11.54,"endTime":14.19,"body":"don't think people should use it."},{"startTime":17.939,"endTime":20.799,"body":"I think this is going to be an interesting"},{"startTime":17.939,"endTime":20.799,"body":"podcast because a lot of people have"},{"startTime":20.799,"endTime":25.169,"body":"heard about this and a lot of people"},{"startTime":20.799,"endTime":25.169,"body":"are either struggling to get to grips"},{"startTime":25.169,"endTime":28.279,"body":"with how to use it or not using it."},{"startTime":28.719,"endTime":30.609,"body":"So, let's, let's do this."},{"startTime":30.689,"endTime":35.039,"body":"So, I want to be fair at the start of"},{"startTime":30.689,"endTime":35.039,"body":"this podcast and I want to give a fair"},{"startTime":35.139,"endTime":40.409,"body":"run through of this double diamond"},{"startTime":35.139,"endTime":40.409,"body":"this What what else is it called?"},{"startTime":40.429,"endTime":40.979,"body":"It's a model."},{"startTime":40.979,"endTime":43.519,"body":"It's a construct dual"},{"startTime":40.979,"endTime":43.519,"body":"dual track dual track."},{"startTime":43.969,"endTime":44.189,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":44.189,"endTime":48.559,"body":"dual track development double diamond"},{"startTime":44.189,"endTime":48.559,"body":"development Double diamond agile."},{"startTime":48.909,"endTime":49.535,"body":"I hate it even more."},{"startTime":49.535,"endTime":51.369,"body":"It's dual track agile,"},{"startTime":49.535,"endTime":51.369,"body":"which is another phrase."},{"startTime":51.409,"endTime":52.529,"body":"I hate it even more now."},{"startTime":52.719,"endTime":55.389,"body":"let's start by talking about what it is."},{"startTime":55.704,"endTime":56.464,"body":"Conceptually."},{"startTime":56.474,"endTime":57.364,"body":"And then I guess."},{"startTime":57.734,"endTime":58.374,"body":"Metaphorically?"},{"startTime":58.414,"endTime":59.084,"body":"Emotionally?"},{"startTime":59.434,"endTime":59.994,"body":"Physically?"},{"startTime":60.274,"endTime":60.874,"body":"Spiritually?"},{"startTime":61.154,"endTime":62.644,"body":"It's been a long time"},{"startTime":61.154,"endTime":62.644,"body":"since we've done that."},{"startTime":63.074,"endTime":63.554,"body":"Yeah, it has been a while."},{"startTime":63.604,"endTime":63.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":64.014,"endTime":66.444,"body":"Alright, so I put the double"},{"startTime":64.014,"endTime":66.444,"body":"diamond, the simple double diamond,"},{"startTime":66.744,"endTime":67.674,"body":"I put it back on the screen."},{"startTime":67.974,"endTime":71.504,"body":"So before we dive into this, do we"},{"startTime":67.974,"endTime":71.504,"body":"want to talk about the history of it?"},{"startTime":71.504,"endTime":73.014,"body":"Like, how did this come about?"},{"startTime":73.314,"endTime":74.934,"body":"Or do we just start and then get to it?"},{"startTime":75.194,"endTime":79.324,"body":"So we did do a bit of digging, I"},{"startTime":75.194,"endTime":79.324,"body":"want to throw out the concept first."},{"startTime":79.324,"endTime":79.524,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":79.694,"endTime":80.454,"body":"I want to talk about the concept."},{"startTime":80.754,"endTime":82.134,"body":"So the double diamond."},{"startTime":82.434,"endTime":86.464,"body":"Model, whatever it's called is"},{"startTime":82.434,"endTime":86.464,"body":"named because, well, there are"},{"startTime":86.464,"endTime":88.034,"body":"two diamonds on the screen, right?"},{"startTime":88.444,"endTime":91.954,"body":"And a lot of people have taken the"},{"startTime":88.444,"endTime":91.954,"body":"two diamonds, joined them together"},{"startTime":92.254,"endTime":93.924,"body":"resting on their apex, right?"},{"startTime":93.964,"endTime":97.344,"body":"And so join them together, and then"},{"startTime":93.964,"endTime":97.344,"body":"they've said, here are the four"},{"startTime":97.354,"endTime":100.224,"body":"Ds that make up the model, right?"},{"startTime":100.254,"endTime":100.984,"body":"The four Ds."},{"startTime":101.369,"endTime":101.869,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":102.059,"endTime":102.419,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":102.769,"endTime":104.899,"body":"Discover, define, develop, deliver."},{"startTime":105.119,"endTime":110.079,"body":"And the first two D's, the"},{"startTime":105.119,"endTime":110.079,"body":"discover and define, they"},{"startTime":110.079,"endTime":112.279,"body":"said lie in the problem space."},{"startTime":112.719,"endTime":117.819,"body":"Trying to figure out what the problem"},{"startTime":112.719,"endTime":117.819,"body":"is and defining it and agreeing on it."},{"startTime":118.119,"endTime":121.819,"body":"And in the last two, they said,"},{"startTime":118.119,"endTime":121.819,"body":"okay, these are in the next diamond."},{"startTime":122.319,"endTime":125.599,"body":"So this is where we develop"},{"startTime":122.319,"endTime":125.599,"body":"a solution and we deliver it."},{"startTime":125.899,"endTime":129.529,"body":"The other thing they've done is they've"},{"startTime":125.899,"endTime":129.529,"body":"liberally sprinkled on this whole"},{"startTime":129.529,"endTime":131.679,"body":"thing, almost like a pepper mill."},{"startTime":131.969,"endTime":135.359,"body":"This idea of how It's basically iterative."},{"startTime":135.539,"endTime":137.999,"body":"So you can go from any"},{"startTime":135.539,"endTime":137.999,"body":"place to any place else."},{"startTime":138.299,"endTime":142.839,"body":"But when you look at the diamonds,"},{"startTime":138.299,"endTime":142.839,"body":"the pictorial representation"},{"startTime":142.849,"endTime":143.999,"body":"doesn't make that clear."},{"startTime":144.459,"endTime":147.439,"body":"It almost like, it just"},{"startTime":144.459,"endTime":147.439,"body":"says you start somewhere."},{"startTime":147.739,"endTime":150.809,"body":"And there's offering like this one here"},{"startTime":147.739,"endTime":150.809,"body":"that you have on the screen, right?"},{"startTime":150.839,"endTime":152.699,"body":"It says start here on the very left side."},{"startTime":152.749,"endTime":155.139,"body":"And at the end it says"},{"startTime":152.749,"endTime":155.139,"body":"deliver the right thing."},{"startTime":155.139,"endTime":157.809,"body":"So presumably one is now meant"},{"startTime":155.139,"endTime":157.809,"body":"to go from left to right."},{"startTime":158.179,"endTime":159.899,"body":"Well, let's look at another diagram."},{"startTime":159.899,"endTime":164.329,"body":"So I've got several diagrams, one which"},{"startTime":159.899,"endTime":164.329,"body":"we think are good interpretations."},{"startTime":164.599,"endTime":166.769,"body":"So we started with this one"},{"startTime":164.599,"endTime":166.769,"body":"that's on the screen now."},{"startTime":167.069,"endTime":169.619,"body":"This is the very simple for, for"},{"startTime":167.069,"endTime":169.619,"body":"I don't know how I'm going to"},{"startTime":169.619,"endTime":170.729,"body":"do this for people listening."},{"startTime":171.059,"endTime":172.879,"body":"So for people listening,"},{"startTime":171.059,"endTime":172.879,"body":"what I'll probably do is I'll"},{"startTime":172.879,"endTime":175.069,"body":"probably link some of the links."},{"startTime":175.069,"endTime":176.519,"body":"I'll probably save the"},{"startTime":175.069,"endTime":176.519,"body":"links we're looking at."},{"startTime":176.829,"endTime":177.909,"body":"I'll put them in the show notes."},{"startTime":178.219,"endTime":180.359,"body":"The first one that we're looking"},{"startTime":178.219,"endTime":180.359,"body":"at it's called the double"},{"startTime":180.359,"endTime":181.679,"body":"diamond at the top of the graph."},{"startTime":181.999,"endTime":184.779,"body":"On the left is a red problem diamond."},{"startTime":185.099,"endTime":187.969,"body":"On the right is a blue solution diamond."},{"startTime":188.169,"endTime":190.809,"body":"This is probably the easiest"},{"startTime":188.169,"endTime":190.809,"body":"one we'll look at to understand."},{"startTime":190.824,"endTime":196.494,"body":"The second one we're going to look at"},{"startTime":190.824,"endTime":196.494,"body":"is the sketch of a sort of a yellowish"},{"startTime":196.544,"endTime":201.304,"body":"orange kind of color which has the"},{"startTime":196.544,"endTime":201.304,"body":"discover, define, develop, deliver steps."},{"startTime":201.654,"endTime":206.284,"body":"And now I want to present"},{"startTime":201.654,"endTime":206.284,"body":"another one, which is the I D E"},{"startTime":206.354,"endTime":209.314,"body":"O design process slide, right?"},{"startTime":209.314,"endTime":211.754,"body":"which has the problem space on the left."},{"startTime":212.104,"endTime":213.414,"body":"The solution space on the right."},{"startTime":213.704,"endTime":216.554,"body":"But the nice thing, I like this one a"},{"startTime":213.704,"endTime":216.554,"body":"little bit better because at the bottom,"},{"startTime":216.554,"endTime":220.894,"body":"it gives you like these wave forms of"},{"startTime":216.554,"endTime":220.894,"body":"well, the further left you are, the"},{"startTime":220.904,"endTime":225.234,"body":"higher the waves are the further at"},{"startTime":220.904,"endTime":225.234,"body":"sea you are, the choppier and larger."},{"startTime":225.549,"endTime":230.289,"body":"You know, the waves are, and the"},{"startTime":225.549,"endTime":230.289,"body":"further you get to the right, the"},{"startTime":230.289,"endTime":232.349,"body":"lower and less dangerous, basically."},{"startTime":232.349,"endTime":233.289,"body":"The water's our calmer."},{"startTime":233.339,"endTime":238.029,"body":"Exactly, exactly, this is that diagram"},{"startTime":233.339,"endTime":238.029,"body":"that looks like Snoopy lying on its back."},{"startTime":238.419,"endTime":242.459,"body":"So I, yeah, I mean, it's supposed"},{"startTime":238.419,"endTime":242.459,"body":"to show that, but when you look at"},{"startTime":242.459,"endTime":247.369,"body":"it, I don't know if I agree that"},{"startTime":242.459,"endTime":247.369,"body":"the amplitude, the height of the"},{"startTime":247.369,"endTime":249.829,"body":"waves, Represent the size of it."},{"startTime":249.839,"endTime":254.849,"body":"So in the divergent space is that is"},{"startTime":249.839,"endTime":254.849,"body":"the tallest area on this image, right?"},{"startTime":255.149,"endTime":257.789,"body":"Implying that it's harder to do this."},{"startTime":257.809,"endTime":261.909,"body":"Okay, or there's more pain However,"},{"startTime":257.809,"endTime":261.909,"body":"you want to look at it, right?"},{"startTime":262.009,"endTime":262.909,"body":"That's what it's saying."},{"startTime":263.199,"endTime":267.594,"body":"And it's also trying to"},{"startTime":263.199,"endTime":267.594,"body":"embody this idea of the . The"},{"startTime":267.594,"endTime":270.414,"body":"divergent and convergent model."},{"startTime":270.594,"endTime":270.834,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":270.889,"endTime":272.149,"body":"Well then why don't we"},{"startTime":270.889,"endTime":272.149,"body":"look at the slide deck?"},{"startTime":272.359,"endTime":275.029,"body":"Because the slide deck, this"},{"startTime":272.359,"endTime":275.029,"body":"one is the cleanest view, in"},{"startTime":275.029,"endTime":276.849,"body":"my opinion, of what it is."},{"startTime":276.929,"endTime":277.269,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":277.319,"endTime":281.969,"body":"So this comes from a slide deck that you"},{"startTime":277.319,"endTime":281.969,"body":"brought in preparation of this podcast."},{"startTime":282.009,"endTime":285.199,"body":"This is also a much higher fidelity"},{"startTime":282.009,"endTime":285.199,"body":"example than what we were looking at"},{"startTime":285.199,"endTime":290.139,"body":"before because it puts on here the idea"},{"startTime":285.199,"endTime":290.139,"body":"of research and coming to insight and"},{"startTime":290.139,"endTime":294.099,"body":"then coming up with like specific problems"},{"startTime":290.139,"endTime":294.099,"body":"that you want to solve as opposed to like"},{"startTime":294.099,"endTime":297.429,"body":"solving every problem in the world and"},{"startTime":294.099,"endTime":297.429,"body":"then going through prototyping and some"},{"startTime":297.429,"endTime":302.129,"body":"testing and like basically the idea that"},{"startTime":297.429,"endTime":302.129,"body":"you will go back and forth several times."},{"startTime":302.129,"endTime":303.569,"body":"Yes, the iterative concept."},{"startTime":303.599,"endTime":304.059,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":304.059,"endTime":304.319,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":304.379,"endTime":307.069,"body":"I like this one more than the"},{"startTime":304.379,"endTime":307.069,"body":"other two that we just looked at."},{"startTime":307.369,"endTime":308.609,"body":"I agree, I do as well."},{"startTime":308.609,"endTime":311.139,"body":"It actually shows the concept clearly."},{"startTime":311.189,"endTime":314.809,"body":"This one is the double diamond design"},{"startTime":311.189,"endTime":314.809,"body":"model modified from the design council"},{"startTime":314.819,"endTime":319.729,"body":"in the UK and the service design in"},{"startTime":314.819,"endTime":319.729,"body":"Vancouver, university of Alberta."},{"startTime":320.029,"endTime":325.759,"body":"So this one basically walks the viewer"},{"startTime":320.029,"endTime":325.759,"body":"through how you have a nebulous problem"},{"startTime":325.789,"endTime":331.844,"body":"or problem set On the very left side"},{"startTime":325.789,"endTime":331.844,"body":"and you go through gathering insight,"},{"startTime":332.134,"endTime":335.754,"body":"doing research, first of all, to find"},{"startTime":332.134,"endTime":335.754,"body":"out more about the issue or issues,"},{"startTime":336.054,"endTime":340.424,"body":"gathering insights, identifying"},{"startTime":336.054,"endTime":340.424,"body":"the needs and discerning the needs"},{"startTime":340.764,"endTime":343.184,"body":"from the wants, wishes and desires."},{"startTime":343.554,"endTime":347.944,"body":"And then as you need to go back"},{"startTime":343.554,"endTime":347.944,"body":"through that iteratively, right?"},{"startTime":347.984,"endTime":349.394,"body":"And all the while you're doing that."},{"startTime":349.694,"endTime":353.394,"body":"Perhaps subconsciously, but you are"},{"startTime":349.694,"endTime":353.394,"body":"actually developing empathy for the user."},{"startTime":353.604,"endTime":356.144,"body":"Because you're getting to know their"},{"startTime":353.604,"endTime":356.144,"body":"needs better and better, right?"},{"startTime":356.154,"endTime":356.954,"body":"More intimately."},{"startTime":357.254,"endTime":360.544,"body":"That's what this first diamond"},{"startTime":357.254,"endTime":360.544,"body":"on the very left side, this kind"},{"startTime":360.544,"endTime":362.154,"body":"of orange diamond, shows you."},{"startTime":362.604,"endTime":367.324,"body":"While you're doing that, in the"},{"startTime":362.604,"endTime":367.324,"body":"first half of the diamond, when"},{"startTime":367.324,"endTime":371.774,"body":"you're looking at the user's needs"},{"startTime":367.324,"endTime":371.774,"body":"and doing your research, you're in"},{"startTime":371.774,"endTime":374.474,"body":"what they call a divergent phase."},{"startTime":374.664,"endTime":378.394,"body":"And all that's meant to say is"},{"startTime":374.664,"endTime":378.394,"body":"you're including everything."},{"startTime":378.444,"endTime":382.834,"body":"Basically, you're not ruling out"},{"startTime":378.444,"endTime":382.834,"body":"anything  and not making decisions yet."},{"startTime":383.134,"endTime":384.434,"body":"So reserve."},{"startTime":384.734,"endTime":389.414,"body":"Reserve decisions until the last what's"},{"startTime":384.734,"endTime":389.414,"body":"the phrase last responsible moment?"},{"startTime":389.464,"endTime":392.344,"body":"Yeah, something like that so the"},{"startTime":389.464,"endTime":392.344,"body":"first half of the diamond says that"},{"startTime":392.424,"endTime":393.754,"body":"until the most hilarious moment."},{"startTime":393.764,"endTime":396.004,"body":"Yeah, most hilarious until"},{"startTime":393.764,"endTime":396.004,"body":"the budget runs out, right?"},{"startTime":396.304,"endTime":400.444,"body":"the second half of the diamond is"},{"startTime":396.304,"endTime":400.444,"body":"talking about now having discussions"},{"startTime":400.474,"endTime":404.459,"body":"within Your teams and with the customer"},{"startTime":400.474,"endTime":404.459,"body":"because you're still on the left side."},{"startTime":404.799,"endTime":409.079,"body":"You're on the discover side So I'm"},{"startTime":404.799,"endTime":409.079,"body":"hoping that the customer is very much"},{"startTime":409.079,"endTime":414.509,"body":"in the picture gathering insights"},{"startTime":409.079,"endTime":414.509,"body":"and Narrowing down not the solution."},{"startTime":414.519,"endTime":415.769,"body":"We want to be very clear about this."},{"startTime":415.799,"endTime":418.509,"body":"This time it is not about"},{"startTime":415.799,"endTime":418.509,"body":"solution Yeah, this time it is"},{"startTime":418.509,"endTime":420.409,"body":"still about defining the problem."},{"startTime":420.659,"endTime":421.869,"body":"So narrowing down."},{"startTime":421.959,"endTime":425.979,"body":"What is the problem really right"},{"startTime":421.959,"endTime":425.979,"body":"because before we said We'll just have"},{"startTime":426.179,"endTime":430.209,"body":"divergent thinking, bring everything"},{"startTime":426.179,"endTime":430.209,"body":"in and then narrow things down."},{"startTime":430.429,"endTime":432.619,"body":"So now you're into the"},{"startTime":430.429,"endTime":432.619,"body":"convergent thinking."},{"startTime":432.669,"endTime":436.249,"body":"So then, then what they do is at the"},{"startTime":432.669,"endTime":436.249,"body":"end of that first diamond, through"},{"startTime":436.249,"endTime":440.779,"body":"this iterative process, you arrive"},{"startTime":436.249,"endTime":440.779,"body":"at a more defined problem set."},{"startTime":440.889,"endTime":441.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":441.089,"endTime":443.749,"body":"Right, specific, maybe,"},{"startTime":441.089,"endTime":443.749,"body":"hopefully it's one problem."},{"startTime":444.039,"endTime":447.909,"body":"You should do this so that you have"},{"startTime":444.039,"endTime":447.909,"body":"Narrowed it down to a problem you can"},{"startTime":447.909,"endTime":452.079,"body":"actually action, whether it's one or"},{"startTime":447.909,"endTime":452.079,"body":"two or several, depends on the context."},{"startTime":452.579,"endTime":457.449,"body":"The lower number, the better, because"},{"startTime":452.579,"endTime":457.449,"body":"you don't have noise at that point,"},{"startTime":457.459,"endTime":459.009,"body":"you just have clarity, that's the idea."},{"startTime":459.379,"endTime":463.089,"body":"So moving to the second diamond, right,"},{"startTime":459.379,"endTime":463.089,"body":"which is touching the first one, because"},{"startTime":463.089,"endTime":464.759,"body":"they're both resting on their apex."},{"startTime":465.059,"endTime":465.889,"body":"It touches that."},{"startTime":465.889,"endTime":469.829,"body":"So at the intersection of the two,"},{"startTime":465.889,"endTime":469.829,"body":"you have specific problems that have"},{"startTime":469.829,"endTime":474.459,"body":"already been identified, or problem,"},{"startTime":469.829,"endTime":474.459,"body":"hopefully through this iterative process."},{"startTime":474.509,"endTime":479.109,"body":"Now that you understand the problem, and"},{"startTime":474.509,"endTime":479.109,"body":"everyone is in unison agreeing with it,"},{"startTime":479.119,"endTime":483.749,"body":"you have consensus, what you're trying"},{"startTime":479.119,"endTime":483.749,"body":"to do next is, you're trying to now look"},{"startTime":483.749,"endTime":489.154,"body":"at solutions, but Similar thinking like"},{"startTime":483.749,"endTime":489.154,"body":"you're not weighing in on a solution"},{"startTime":489.164,"endTime":493.484,"body":"that someone suggests, you're going"},{"startTime":489.164,"endTime":493.484,"body":"back to that whole convergent thinking."},{"startTime":493.494,"endTime":495.434,"body":"Look at each and every possibility."},{"startTime":495.874,"endTime":498.534,"body":"And the example that springs to"},{"startTime":495.874,"endTime":498.534,"body":"mind here is when the problem"},{"startTime":498.534,"endTime":502.804,"body":"says we have a river or body of"},{"startTime":498.534,"endTime":502.804,"body":"water that we want to get across."},{"startTime":503.184,"endTime":507.474,"body":"We're not simply being told or anchored"},{"startTime":503.184,"endTime":507.474,"body":"by a solution We're not told build"},{"startTime":507.474,"endTime":510.604,"body":"a bridge because then the team's"},{"startTime":507.474,"endTime":510.604,"body":"going to do exactly that, right?"},{"startTime":510.984,"endTime":514.244,"body":"What we're told is the problem is"},{"startTime":510.984,"endTime":514.244,"body":"you need to get across the river So"},{"startTime":514.314,"endTime":516.064,"body":"now more questions could be asked."},{"startTime":516.094,"endTime":517.294,"body":"What do we need to get across?"},{"startTime":517.334,"endTime":519.024,"body":"Is it people trucks, right?"},{"startTime":519.054,"endTime":519.734,"body":"Whatever it is."},{"startTime":520.054,"endTime":523.474,"body":"And so there's no solutioning in that"},{"startTime":520.054,"endTime":523.474,"body":"first diamond in the second diamond"},{"startTime":523.494,"endTime":526.289,"body":"you do Ideation of possible solutions."},{"startTime":526.319,"endTime":531.759,"body":"Maybe we build a raft or a pontoon or"},{"startTime":526.319,"endTime":531.759,"body":"something Or maybe we just have a hot"},{"startTime":531.759,"endTime":536.869,"body":"air balloon that gets us across there"},{"startTime":531.759,"endTime":536.869,"body":"so you learn more by by more exploration"},{"startTime":537.119,"endTime":542.024,"body":"while the hot air balloon idea is still"},{"startTime":537.119,"endTime":542.024,"body":"valid, but Maybe it's discounted because"},{"startTime":542.024,"endTime":543.594,"body":"we're moving trucks across, right?"},{"startTime":543.894,"endTime":548.744,"body":"So, through prototyping and doing this,"},{"startTime":543.894,"endTime":548.744,"body":"you come down to, okay, well the problem"},{"startTime":548.754,"endTime":552.664,"body":"is really just get us across the river,"},{"startTime":548.754,"endTime":552.664,"body":"but us is really just a bunch of cars"},{"startTime":552.664,"endTime":554.574,"body":"and people, so pontoons could work."},{"startTime":554.594,"endTime":556.684,"body":"We don't have to build a"},{"startTime":554.594,"endTime":556.684,"body":"bridge or dig a tunnel."},{"startTime":556.704,"endTime":557.814,"body":"Not, not my business."},{"startTime":557.814,"endTime":560.294,"body":"In my business, I'm, I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":557.814,"endTime":560.294,"body":"hooking a balloon to my truck"},{"startTime":560.294,"endTime":561.524,"body":"and I'm having a balloon truck."},{"startTime":561.524,"endTime":561.954,"body":"Like, listen."},{"startTime":561.954,"endTime":562.504,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":562.844,"endTime":565.674,"body":"Om, I need you to build me"},{"startTime":562.844,"endTime":565.674,"body":"a pontoon balloon truck."},{"startTime":565.704,"endTime":566.034,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":566.034,"endTime":567.534,"body":"And I need it by tomorrow."},{"startTime":567.684,"endTime":568.384,"body":"Yeah, By yesterday."},{"startTime":568.384,"endTime":570.599,"body":"And it should, and it should"},{"startTime":568.384,"endTime":570.599,"body":"travel in an underground tunnel."},{"startTime":570.599,"endTime":571.019,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":571.024,"endTime":571.529,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":571.529,"endTime":572.009,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":572.059,"endTime":575.509,"body":"And for tree fiddy, that's"},{"startTime":572.059,"endTime":575.509,"body":"exactly three 50 by Thursday."},{"startTime":575.514,"endTime":575.989,"body":"Under, under budget."},{"startTime":575.989,"endTime":576.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":576.229,"endTime":576.859,"body":"By Thursday."},{"startTime":577.164,"endTime":581.374,"body":"so this is a space where there's a lot"},{"startTime":577.164,"endTime":581.374,"body":"of ideation in the convergent, sorry,"},{"startTime":581.384,"endTime":585.334,"body":"divergent side of things, and we rule"},{"startTime":581.384,"endTime":585.334,"body":"out things like balloons won't work"},{"startTime":585.344,"endTime":586.494,"body":"because we have trucks to move over."},{"startTime":586.804,"endTime":590.444,"body":"Now we get into the convergent"},{"startTime":586.804,"endTime":590.444,"body":"thinking and come up with possibly"},{"startTime":590.444,"endTime":592.784,"body":"one, but often more than one solution."},{"startTime":592.924,"endTime":595.724,"body":"And you could prototype them to"},{"startTime":592.924,"endTime":595.724,"body":"figure it out if that's valid."},{"startTime":596.104,"endTime":598.304,"body":"Try out each one and experiment perhaps."},{"startTime":598.314,"endTime":600.194,"body":"I feel like we should be on this"},{"startTime":598.314,"endTime":600.194,"body":"slide because you keep going"},{"startTime":600.194,"endTime":602.164,"body":"through the different types of"},{"startTime":600.194,"endTime":602.164,"body":"thinking that are happening."},{"startTime":602.514,"endTime":606.154,"body":"Although this slide shows a very"},{"startTime":602.514,"endTime":606.154,"body":"clean representation of the model,"},{"startTime":606.454,"endTime":609.504,"body":"in reality, this slide here with"},{"startTime":606.454,"endTime":609.504,"body":"the sharp looking diamonds, in"},{"startTime":609.504,"endTime":611.004,"body":"reality, life is not like that."},{"startTime":611.504,"endTime":615.114,"body":"And the diamonds in real life do"},{"startTime":611.504,"endTime":615.114,"body":"not actually touch each other."},{"startTime":615.114,"endTime":618.144,"body":"I like this one because"},{"startTime":615.114,"endTime":618.144,"body":"this one's a lot closer."},{"startTime":618.404,"endTime":621.654,"body":"So, to me, again, I'm"},{"startTime":618.404,"endTime":621.654,"body":"not in my gripes yet."},{"startTime":621.664,"endTime":624.614,"body":"We're just looking at what it"},{"startTime":621.664,"endTime":624.614,"body":"is, what it's supposed to mean."},{"startTime":624.934,"endTime":626.514,"body":"We're just talking about concepts."},{"startTime":626.874,"endTime":628.634,"body":"First half of this podcast"},{"startTime":626.874,"endTime":628.634,"body":"is going to be concepts."},{"startTime":628.934,"endTime":633.234,"body":"The second half of this podcast is"},{"startTime":628.934,"endTime":633.234,"body":"going to be Brian and all his gripes"},{"startTime":633.234,"endTime":635.214,"body":"in arguing agile as per normal."},{"startTime":635.464,"endTime":639.444,"body":"So I like this one though, because on the"},{"startTime":635.464,"endTime":639.444,"body":"left, you're looking for the problems."},{"startTime":639.464,"endTime":640.944,"body":"It's tiny, right?"},{"startTime":640.944,"endTime":646.564,"body":"And when divergent thinking starts,"},{"startTime":640.944,"endTime":646.564,"body":"you start expanding out a million"},{"startTime":646.564,"endTime":647.704,"body":"different ways that you could go."},{"startTime":648.004,"endTime":652.494,"body":"Then you get to that center, the"},{"startTime":648.004,"endTime":652.494,"body":"messy, messy, gooey nougat center."},{"startTime":652.584,"endTime":652.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":652.914,"endTime":653.304,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":653.354,"endTime":655.934,"body":"The middle of the diamond where"},{"startTime":653.354,"endTime":655.934,"body":"the diamond bows out and is the"},{"startTime":655.934,"endTime":660.524,"body":"whitest takes up potentially the"},{"startTime":655.934,"endTime":660.524,"body":"most time and it's the messiest."},{"startTime":660.764,"endTime":662.264,"body":"Like that's why I like it this way."},{"startTime":662.324,"endTime":663.314,"body":"It's not double diamond to me."},{"startTime":663.314,"endTime":664.574,"body":"It's one diamond to me."},{"startTime":664.604,"endTime":666.134,"body":"Yeah, well it is in this model."},{"startTime":666.194,"endTime":666.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":666.314,"endTime":667.214,"body":"It looks like one diamond."},{"startTime":667.214,"endTime":667.874,"body":"Right, right, right, right, right."},{"startTime":667.874,"endTime":670.934,"body":"And that messy middle"},{"startTime":667.874,"endTime":670.934,"body":"it's, it's the emergent."},{"startTime":671.169,"endTime":672.119,"body":"Thinking right there."},{"startTime":672.149,"endTime":675.939,"body":"So you're not, you move it away"},{"startTime":672.149,"endTime":675.939,"body":"from divergent and now you're trying"},{"startTime":675.939,"endTime":678.449,"body":"to get out from this mess, right?"},{"startTime":678.889,"endTime":682.759,"body":"This is where a lot of people, a lot of"},{"startTime":678.889,"endTime":682.759,"body":"teams get stuck because you know, when"},{"startTime":682.759,"endTime":686.669,"body":"you involve multiple people with different"},{"startTime":682.759,"endTime":686.669,"body":"backgrounds, different expertise and"},{"startTime":686.669,"endTime":688.729,"body":"so on you, you're in this grown zone."},{"startTime":688.759,"endTime":691.729,"body":"People are, some people will just"},{"startTime":688.759,"endTime":691.729,"body":"be very adamant about the solution."},{"startTime":691.779,"endTime":695.389,"body":"I've been on teams where literally"},{"startTime":691.779,"endTime":695.389,"body":"everybody on the team has a different"},{"startTime":695.389,"endTime":697.909,"body":"idea of what the solution could be."},{"startTime":697.929,"endTime":702.989,"body":"Or which problem to attack if we're"},{"startTime":697.929,"endTime":702.989,"body":"trying to decide, look, we only attack"},{"startTime":702.999,"endTime":706.379,"body":"one problem because we need to deal"},{"startTime":702.999,"endTime":706.379,"body":"with the pain point for the customer."},{"startTime":706.449,"endTime":709.219,"body":"We can only do one because"},{"startTime":706.449,"endTime":709.219,"body":"we've only have enough time or"},{"startTime":709.219,"endTime":711.089,"body":"money or deadline or whatever."},{"startTime":711.459,"endTime":713.719,"body":"So we have to pick one and"},{"startTime":711.459,"endTime":713.719,"body":"everybody has a different take."},{"startTime":713.739,"endTime":714.729,"body":"I've been on those teams."},{"startTime":714.779,"endTime":718.359,"body":"so typically what happens in those"},{"startTime":714.779,"endTime":718.359,"body":"environments is you have somebody like a"},{"startTime":718.359,"endTime":722.419,"body":"lead or an architect who would anchor the"},{"startTime":718.359,"endTime":722.419,"body":"conversation, say this is how we do it."},{"startTime":722.849,"endTime":728.689,"body":"And then other team members, no matter"},{"startTime":722.849,"endTime":728.689,"body":"how valid their opinions are that they"},{"startTime":728.729,"endTime":733.549,"body":"don't speak up often because, well The"},{"startTime":728.729,"endTime":733.549,"body":"mighty architect has spoken, so if I"},{"startTime":733.549,"endTime":736.299,"body":"say something, I'm probably going to"},{"startTime":733.549,"endTime":736.299,"body":"be shut down anyway, so why bother?"},{"startTime":736.589,"endTime":740.149,"body":"Everybody's ideas should be"},{"startTime":736.589,"endTime":740.149,"body":"welcome in that grown zone, right?"},{"startTime":740.169,"endTime":741.079,"body":"Let people talk."},{"startTime":741.379,"endTime":744.869,"body":"In fact, if you're one of those people"},{"startTime":741.379,"endTime":744.869,"body":"who tends to speak a lot during these"},{"startTime":744.899,"endTime":749.759,"body":"discussions, you need to maybe not speak"},{"startTime":744.899,"endTime":749.759,"body":"so much and listen intently to others."},{"startTime":749.799,"endTime":751.359,"body":"Invite them into the conversation."},{"startTime":751.699,"endTime":756.519,"body":"And reduce the fear that they have for"},{"startTime":751.699,"endTime":756.519,"body":"raising their hand and speaking up, right?"},{"startTime":756.839,"endTime":758.109,"body":"And you can do that in many ways."},{"startTime":758.109,"endTime":760.559,"body":"I mean the other facilitation"},{"startTime":758.109,"endTime":760.559,"body":"is paramount here."},{"startTime":760.759,"endTime":763.439,"body":"Reduce the cost of speaking up"},{"startTime":760.759,"endTime":763.439,"body":"That's what that's really what"},{"startTime":763.439,"endTime":764.419,"body":"we're talking about here, right?"},{"startTime":764.459,"endTime":767.489,"body":"Reduce the cost and then"},{"startTime":764.459,"endTime":767.489,"body":"yeah, there's no harm, right?"},{"startTime":767.509,"endTime":770.059,"body":"Everyone's Everyone's feedback is welcome."},{"startTime":770.069,"endTime":773.769,"body":"That's that should be the the environment"},{"startTime":770.069,"endTime":773.769,"body":"we foster here The blue and the yellow"},{"startTime":773.769,"endTime":776.789,"body":"dots are really just representing ideas."},{"startTime":776.869,"endTime":781.789,"body":"And also, as we converge out from"},{"startTime":776.869,"endTime":781.789,"body":"there, from the emergent to the next"},{"startTime":781.809,"endTime":785.719,"body":"column there are three potential"},{"startTime":781.809,"endTime":785.719,"body":"solutions that are circled here."},{"startTime":786.079,"endTime":787.939,"body":"So you may not end up with one."},{"startTime":787.969,"endTime":789.329,"body":"Maybe it's not as clean as that."},{"startTime":789.339,"endTime":790.469,"body":"Maybe there's more than one."},{"startTime":790.779,"endTime":792.399,"body":"And now the team has to decide."},{"startTime":792.779,"endTime":797.929,"body":"Well, one way you could do that is"},{"startTime":792.779,"endTime":797.929,"body":"to pursue each one to a prototype."},{"startTime":797.989,"endTime":800.209,"body":"Just try it out and see how it looks."},{"startTime":800.309,"endTime":801.879,"body":"Your customer here too."},{"startTime":802.169,"endTime":806.229,"body":"They don't go away once they've been in"},{"startTime":802.169,"endTime":806.229,"body":"that first half of the diamond, right?"},{"startTime":806.249,"endTime":810.444,"body":"They are there throughout maybe"},{"startTime":806.249,"endTime":810.444,"body":"they're not there As much in the"},{"startTime":810.444,"endTime":813.674,"body":"emergent phase, although I don't see"},{"startTime":810.444,"endTime":813.674,"body":"any harm in that because they can add"},{"startTime":814.004,"endTime":817.714,"body":"invaluable input, but they're definitely"},{"startTime":814.004,"endTime":817.714,"body":"there in the convergent side of it."},{"startTime":817.754,"endTime":822.524,"body":"As you're getting to the next column from"},{"startTime":817.754,"endTime":822.524,"body":"emergent, we have multiple solutions."},{"startTime":822.894,"endTime":823.624,"body":"Ask the customer."},{"startTime":823.624,"endTime":828.054,"body":"We could do X. We could do Y."},{"startTime":823.624,"endTime":828.054,"body":"We could do Z. But you know,"},{"startTime":828.344,"endTime":829.814,"body":"there's a cost for each of those."},{"startTime":829.844,"endTime":833.774,"body":"And am I actually homing in on"},{"startTime":829.844,"endTime":833.774,"body":"the bullseye for the customer?"},{"startTime":833.834,"endTime":836.879,"body":"And if they're in the room, they"},{"startTime":833.834,"endTime":836.879,"body":"can tell you they could say, Hey, We"},{"startTime":836.879,"endTime":838.869,"body":"have to have that bullseye, right?"},{"startTime":838.879,"endTime":839.829,"body":"That's what we have to have."},{"startTime":840.099,"endTime":843.229,"body":"Or if you're on the outer"},{"startTime":840.099,"endTime":843.229,"body":"ring of that, that's fine."},{"startTime":843.309,"endTime":844.159,"body":"That's good enough."},{"startTime":844.559,"endTime":848.279,"body":"And that's, that's great feedback for the"},{"startTime":844.559,"endTime":848.279,"body":"team because you can now focus, right?"},{"startTime":848.319,"endTime":851.899,"body":"And you can move out of this"},{"startTime":848.319,"endTime":851.899,"body":"diamond with a potential solution"},{"startTime":851.899,"endTime":852.669,"body":"that you're going to tackle."},{"startTime":853.219,"endTime":856.119,"body":"There's another view of kind of what"},{"startTime":853.219,"endTime":856.119,"body":"we were looking at the whole time."},{"startTime":856.419,"endTime":859.959,"body":"Then the next diagram shows you know, a"},{"startTime":856.419,"endTime":859.959,"body":"little more there's a little more a little"},{"startTime":859.959,"endTime":863.799,"body":"more of a Hey, here's some things that"},{"startTime":859.959,"endTime":863.799,"body":"happen in these again, I, I had to stop"},{"startTime":863.799,"endTime":867.079,"body":"myself to say phases because that's the"},{"startTime":863.799,"endTime":867.079,"body":"way when I'm looking at it, that's what it"},{"startTime":867.079,"endTime":870.799,"body":"looks like not to jump as a head, but you"},{"startTime":867.079,"endTime":870.799,"body":"know, Oh, the, in the conversion stage,"},{"startTime":870.989,"endTime":875.159,"body":"you have some consolidation of thinking"},{"startTime":870.989,"endTime":875.159,"body":"and some refinement of some ideas and kind"},{"startTime":875.159,"endTime":878.759,"body":"of honing of the ideas kind of cutting"},{"startTime":875.159,"endTime":878.759,"body":"them down a size or maybe pulling the"},{"startTime":878.759,"endTime":881.779,"body":"value out of larger, segments of ideas."},{"startTime":882.089,"endTime":883.769,"body":"You know, Oh, this thing"},{"startTime":882.089,"endTime":883.769,"body":"will take us three months."},{"startTime":883.769,"endTime":885.659,"body":"Well, out of that three months,"},{"startTime":883.769,"endTime":885.659,"body":"I mean, what is the actual"},{"startTime":885.669,"endTime":886.609,"body":"value in the three months?"},{"startTime":886.769,"endTime":891.019,"body":"Well, the actual value is this one thing"},{"startTime":886.769,"endTime":891.019,"body":"that would actually take us three weeks."},{"startTime":891.319,"endTime":894.419,"body":"Okay, well, we probably should"},{"startTime":891.319,"endTime":894.419,"body":"push that up to the start first."},{"startTime":894.569,"endTime":897.419,"body":"that kind of refinement comes"},{"startTime":894.569,"endTime":897.419,"body":"out of the conversion phase."},{"startTime":897.419,"endTime":899.339,"body":"I take that thread a"},{"startTime":897.419,"endTime":899.339,"body":"little further, right?"},{"startTime":899.339,"endTime":900.089,"body":"So yeah, okay."},{"startTime":900.359,"endTime":903.089,"body":"We should prioritize the"},{"startTime":900.359,"endTime":903.089,"body":"thing that takes three weeks."},{"startTime":903.479,"endTime":908.054,"body":"But then from that, what might emerge is,"},{"startTime":903.479,"endTime":908.054,"body":"Well, we don't quite know enough, right?"},{"startTime":908.054,"endTime":909.804,"body":"So we go back to the"},{"startTime":908.054,"endTime":909.804,"body":"beginning of the diamond."},{"startTime":910.034,"endTime":913.064,"body":"So, while you say this looks like"},{"startTime":910.034,"endTime":913.064,"body":"phases, and I agree it does, it's"},{"startTime":913.064,"endTime":915.064,"body":"a two dimensional diagram, right?"},{"startTime":915.064,"endTime":916.204,"body":"But think about it like this."},{"startTime":916.394,"endTime":919.914,"body":"If you could pick this diagram up,"},{"startTime":916.394,"endTime":919.914,"body":"and you can fold a piece of paper"},{"startTime":919.914,"endTime":921.994,"body":"horizontally, Like a tube almost."},{"startTime":922.014,"endTime":922.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":922.474,"endTime":925.474,"body":"That's what you're looking at because"},{"startTime":922.474,"endTime":925.474,"body":"you go back and forth all the time"},{"startTime":925.474,"endTime":929.954,"body":"here to the point where sometimes"},{"startTime":925.474,"endTime":929.954,"body":"it's not even obvious where you're at."},{"startTime":930.244,"endTime":930.504,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":930.564,"endTime":932.664,"body":"I think there's another"},{"startTime":930.564,"endTime":932.664,"body":"diagram that shows that."},{"startTime":933.064,"endTime":935.554,"body":"So real life is not so cut and dry."},{"startTime":935.644,"endTime":936.954,"body":"It's not so obvious."},{"startTime":937.254,"endTime":941.524,"body":"If you go to the next one, it will"},{"startTime":937.254,"endTime":941.524,"body":"show you how teams actually navigate"},{"startTime":941.534,"endTime":944.614,"body":"through this and they may not even"},{"startTime":941.534,"endTime":944.614,"body":"know they're doing this, right?"},{"startTime":944.684,"endTime":947.894,"body":"there's a lot of sticky situations"},{"startTime":944.684,"endTime":947.894,"body":"in that middle emergent category,"},{"startTime":947.904,"endTime":949.874,"body":"that grown zone middle category."},{"startTime":949.984,"endTime":951.194,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":951.194,"endTime":954.489,"body":"This is where some team members shut"},{"startTime":951.194,"endTime":954.489,"body":"down because they're afraid to talk."},{"startTime":954.759,"endTime":957.439,"body":"Some people will just rule"},{"startTime":954.759,"endTime":957.439,"body":"over everybody and  steamroll"},{"startTime":957.719,"endTime":959.039,"body":"because they are anchoring right?"},{"startTime":959.139,"endTime":960.199,"body":"Controlling behaviors."},{"startTime":960.199,"endTime":964.279,"body":"So again, it comes back to the"},{"startTime":960.199,"endTime":964.279,"body":"facilitation making sure that You"},{"startTime":964.279,"endTime":966.629,"body":"recognize this and live through it."},{"startTime":966.709,"endTime":969.609,"body":"So here, I want to interject"},{"startTime":966.709,"endTime":969.609,"body":"one other thing, right?"},{"startTime":969.799,"endTime":972.409,"body":"When you show this to people,"},{"startTime":969.799,"endTime":972.409,"body":"they go, we don't want to"},{"startTime":972.419,"endTime":973.769,"body":"have these kinds of conflicts."},{"startTime":973.889,"endTime":976.289,"body":"Can we just eliminate the"},{"startTime":973.889,"endTime":976.289,"body":"width of that grown zone?"},{"startTime":976.589,"endTime":977.519,"body":"That's wrong thinking."},{"startTime":977.749,"endTime":981.489,"body":"You can't in real life eliminate this,"},{"startTime":977.749,"endTime":981.489,"body":"because you're talking about humans."},{"startTime":981.799,"endTime":982.823,"body":"I think it's lazy thinking."},{"startTime":982.823,"endTime":984.231,"body":"That's what I would say."},{"startTime":984.231,"endTime":984.795,"body":"It's lazy."},{"startTime":984.795,"endTime":985.64,"body":"It is lazy."},{"startTime":985.657,"endTime":986.784,"body":"Like, arguing agile 198."},{"startTime":986.864,"endTime":988.814,"body":"Crucial conversations, you're saying?"},{"startTime":988.874,"endTime":989.264,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":989.264,"endTime":994.874,"body":"Rather than help everyone learn better"},{"startTime":989.264,"endTime":994.874,"body":"ways of communicating, you're doing people"},{"startTime":994.964,"endTime":998.764,"body":"a disservice there by not kind of pressing"},{"startTime":994.964,"endTime":998.764,"body":"them and saying, listen, I've noticed"},{"startTime":998.764,"endTime":1002.584,"body":"this thing I'm trying to help you again,"},{"startTime":998.764,"endTime":1002.584,"body":"like listen to the crucial conversations"},{"startTime":1002.584,"endTime":1004.514,"body":"podcast, and you will  understand that."},{"startTime":1004.874,"endTime":1008.784,"body":"When you're not engaging in this"},{"startTime":1004.874,"endTime":1008.784,"body":"category and you and you're you"},{"startTime":1008.784,"endTime":1011.874,"body":"either try to control the conversation"},{"startTime":1008.784,"endTime":1011.874,"body":"Or you're frustrated and you're"},{"startTime":1011.874,"endTime":1012.924,"body":"trying to move things along."},{"startTime":1013.224,"endTime":1014.544,"body":"There are better ways to handle that."},{"startTime":1014.894,"endTime":1018.444,"body":"Some of the bad things that are listed"},{"startTime":1014.894,"endTime":1018.444,"body":"in, in this, in the category, in the"},{"startTime":1018.464,"endTime":1023.504,"body":"middle here you can get over that"},{"startTime":1018.464,"endTime":1023.504,"body":"with better communication skills."},{"startTime":1023.934,"endTime":1028.524,"body":"And we are, we like to go back"},{"startTime":1023.934,"endTime":1028.524,"body":"to better facilitation skills."},{"startTime":1028.544,"endTime":1031.934,"body":"If you happen to be the person"},{"startTime":1028.544,"endTime":1031.934,"body":"that's facilitating these meetings"},{"startTime":1031.934,"endTime":1033.334,"body":"and kind of moving things along."},{"startTime":1033.829,"endTime":1035.229,"body":"Yeah, that's absolutely well said."},{"startTime":1035.229,"endTime":1035.679,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1035.699,"endTime":1036.229,"body":"That's correct."},{"startTime":1036.229,"endTime":1038.289,"body":"So don't try to minimize this zone."},{"startTime":1038.639,"endTime":1043.289,"body":"Try to live through it Right, and if"},{"startTime":1038.639,"endTime":1043.289,"body":"you do this with a team that is more or"},{"startTime":1043.289,"endTime":1047.679,"body":"less intact over some time, they will"},{"startTime":1043.289,"endTime":1047.679,"body":"recognize this themselves And they will"},{"startTime":1047.679,"endTime":1048.999,"body":"welcome the opportunity to do this."},{"startTime":1049.249,"endTime":1051.019,"body":"Teams will get better at doing this."},{"startTime":1051.319,"endTime":1053.899,"body":"But you need somebody"},{"startTime":1051.319,"endTime":1053.899,"body":"who is a facilitator."},{"startTime":1054.209,"endTime":1058.869,"body":"And you need to have team working"},{"startTime":1054.209,"endTime":1058.869,"body":"agreements that work for your team, right?"},{"startTime":1058.939,"endTime":1060.169,"body":"In order to do this well."},{"startTime":1060.599,"endTime":1063.359,"body":"That's a shame because I think"},{"startTime":1060.599,"endTime":1063.359,"body":"the, somewhere along that"},{"startTime":1063.359,"endTime":1065.339,"body":"border, borderline, so, sorry."},{"startTime":1065.339,"endTime":1069.229,"body":"As soon as I said borderline,"},{"startTime":1065.339,"endTime":1069.229,"body":"I had it in my head."},{"startTime":1069.529,"endTime":1070.479,"body":"Gonna lose my mind."},{"startTime":1070.779,"endTime":1074.359,"body":"Somewhere between that"},{"startTime":1070.779,"endTime":1074.359,"body":"emergent and convergent dotted"},{"startTime":1074.359,"endTime":1076.069,"body":"line  the learning happened."},{"startTime":1076.099,"endTime":1077.239,"body":"The breakthroughs happen."},{"startTime":1077.269,"endTime":1077.479,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1077.689,"endTime":1082.819,"body":"Like it's a shame that the breakthroughs"},{"startTime":1077.689,"endTime":1082.819,"body":"may not happen because your communication"},{"startTime":1083.119,"endTime":1086.359,"body":"between team members may be unrefined."},{"startTime":1086.509,"endTime":1086.629,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1086.659,"endTime":1087.469,"body":"Or not."},{"startTime":1087.859,"endTime":1089.539,"body":"You may not have the best facilitation."},{"startTime":1089.539,"endTime":1089.719,"body":"It."},{"startTime":1089.989,"endTime":1090.709,"body":"That's a shame."},{"startTime":1090.769,"endTime":1091.454,"body":"That is a real shame."},{"startTime":1091.754,"endTime":1095.054,"body":"I would like to wrap up all of our grids"},{"startTime":1091.754,"endTime":1095.054,"body":"and stuff and move us I kind of wanna get"},{"startTime":1095.054,"endTime":1100.264,"body":"to this one 'cause I think this is the"},{"startTime":1095.054,"endTime":1100.264,"body":"best chart that we're gonna show today."},{"startTime":1100.534,"endTime":1102.904,"body":"And, and again, I will,"},{"startTime":1100.534,"endTime":1102.904,"body":"I will link this one."},{"startTime":1103.349,"endTime":1106.229,"body":"the best chart that we'll show today, I"},{"startTime":1103.349,"endTime":1106.229,"body":"don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'll"},{"startTime":1106.609,"endTime":1108.799,"body":"link this one in the show notes somehow."},{"startTime":1108.899,"endTime":1114.349,"body":"Because it shows all of these zones,"},{"startTime":1108.899,"endTime":1114.349,"body":"the intro and the divergent emergent"},{"startTime":1114.349,"endTime":1119.319,"body":"convergent, and it shows all phases of the"},{"startTime":1114.349,"endTime":1119.319,"body":"diamond, and there's a bunch of squiggly"},{"startTime":1119.319,"endTime":1121.329,"body":"lines that go between all the phases."},{"startTime":1121.599,"endTime":1124.149,"body":"Because that's how life actually works."},{"startTime":1124.179,"endTime":1125.269,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1125.309,"endTime":1126.519,"body":"This, this is real life."},{"startTime":1126.549,"endTime":1128.349,"body":"This is exactly how things happen."},{"startTime":1128.759,"endTime":1130.089,"body":"And this is what I was saying earlier."},{"startTime":1130.089,"endTime":1133.609,"body":"You won't even know which phase"},{"startTime":1130.089,"endTime":1133.609,"body":"you're in or which facet, where"},{"startTime":1133.609,"endTime":1135.289,"body":"you're at on this thing, right?"},{"startTime":1135.589,"endTime":1138.899,"body":"Because people aren't overtly"},{"startTime":1135.589,"endTime":1138.899,"body":"thinking about that am I in this"},{"startTime":1138.959,"endTime":1141.049,"body":"emergent, am I diverging, right?"},{"startTime":1141.109,"endTime":1142.139,"body":"You just go through it."},{"startTime":1142.209,"endTime":1145.549,"body":"You know, the nice thing about a diagram"},{"startTime":1142.209,"endTime":1145.549,"body":"like this, although it's not this is"},{"startTime":1145.549,"endTime":1149.309,"body":"not statistically relevant in any way,"},{"startTime":1145.549,"endTime":1149.309,"body":"shape, or form, but if you just glance"},{"startTime":1149.309,"endTime":1152.829,"body":"at it,  if you just took all the lines"},{"startTime":1149.309,"endTime":1152.829,"body":"that run through every sector and just"},{"startTime":1152.829,"endTime":1156.179,"body":"stretch them all out and measure the"},{"startTime":1152.829,"endTime":1156.179,"body":"length, the emergent, the middle of"},{"startTime":1156.179,"endTime":1159.259,"body":"the graph, because again, because it"},{"startTime":1156.179,"endTime":1159.259,"body":"covers, it covers the most surface"},{"startTime":1159.259,"endTime":1161.519,"body":"area, it will have the longest line."},{"startTime":1161.539,"endTime":1162.019,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1162.399,"endTime":1166.589,"body":"So, that's also interesting to me is,"},{"startTime":1162.399,"endTime":1166.589,"body":"the widest part of the diamond, the most"},{"startTime":1166.589,"endTime":1169.199,"body":"chaotic part of the diamond, that's where."},{"startTime":1169.499,"endTime":1170.409,"body":"The things happen."},{"startTime":1170.419,"endTime":1172.039,"body":"That's where the magic is happening."},{"startTime":1172.389,"endTime":1173.589,"body":"That's where chaos lives."},{"startTime":1173.639,"endTime":1177.349,"body":"And all of these on these"},{"startTime":1173.639,"endTime":1177.349,"body":"diagrams, there's an attempt to"},{"startTime":1177.349,"endTime":1178.729,"body":"kind of simplify things, right?"},{"startTime":1178.729,"endTime":1182.839,"body":"But all of these columns aren't"},{"startTime":1178.729,"endTime":1182.839,"body":"necessarily equal width, right?"},{"startTime":1183.139,"endTime":1184.309,"body":"So that's what you were saying."},{"startTime":1184.459,"endTime":1186.859,"body":"This is where the most"},{"startTime":1184.459,"endTime":1186.859,"body":"chaos happens, right?"},{"startTime":1187.159,"endTime":1190.274,"body":"But what we should be"},{"startTime":1187.159,"endTime":1190.274,"body":"mindful of is Two things."},{"startTime":1190.274,"endTime":1192.504,"body":"One is, this chaos is essential."},{"startTime":1192.824,"endTime":1194.964,"body":"So don't look to minimize"},{"startTime":1192.824,"endTime":1194.964,"body":"it or to avoid it."},{"startTime":1194.974,"endTime":1195.544,"body":"That's one."},{"startTime":1195.854,"endTime":1198.764,"body":"And then the other is, as you"},{"startTime":1195.854,"endTime":1198.764,"body":"go through this, your team"},{"startTime":1198.774,"endTime":1200.254,"body":"is actually getting stronger."},{"startTime":1200.424,"endTime":1204.714,"body":"They are actually feeling, every time"},{"startTime":1200.424,"endTime":1204.714,"body":"you go through this chaotic phase, more"},{"startTime":1204.724,"endTime":1208.094,"body":"and more people will feel empowered to"},{"startTime":1204.724,"endTime":1208.094,"body":"speak up because someone else has, right?"},{"startTime":1208.194,"endTime":1209.644,"body":"And so your team's getting better at it."},{"startTime":1210.074,"endTime":1214.874,"body":"So over time, this can only benefit"},{"startTime":1210.074,"endTime":1214.874,"body":"you, your teams, and your organization."},{"startTime":1215.374,"endTime":1219.484,"body":"At this point in the podcast, I want"},{"startTime":1215.374,"endTime":1219.484,"body":"to take a step back because, we walk"},{"startTime":1219.484,"endTime":1224.384,"body":"through the dual track agile dual track"},{"startTime":1219.484,"endTime":1224.384,"body":"development, whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":1224.804,"endTime":1226.884,"body":"We talked about the history of it."},{"startTime":1227.094,"endTime":1228.844,"body":"We talked about a bunch"},{"startTime":1227.094,"endTime":1228.844,"body":"of different diagrams."},{"startTime":1229.144,"endTime":1232.224,"body":"So now I want to get back to what"},{"startTime":1229.144,"endTime":1232.224,"body":"I was saying at the very beginning"},{"startTime":1232.224,"endTime":1233.774,"body":"of the podcast, which is thanks."},{"startTime":1233.874,"endTime":1234.434,"body":"I hate it."},{"startTime":1234.634,"endTime":1238.714,"body":"let me very quickly outline all my gripes."},{"startTime":1238.944,"endTime":1240.174,"body":"I'm gonna take one minute."},{"startTime":1240.224,"endTime":1240.414,"body":"Hang on."},{"startTime":1240.444,"endTime":1240.724,"body":"Let me,"},{"startTime":1241.024,"endTime":1246.494,"body":"I have some professional opinions on"},{"startTime":1241.024,"endTime":1246.494,"body":"this double diamond slash dual track."},{"startTime":1246.794,"endTime":1247.154,"body":"Agile."},{"startTime":1247.454,"endTime":1253.994,"body":"And I will take exactly 60 seconds to"},{"startTime":1247.454,"endTime":1253.994,"body":"outline all of my objections of why I"},{"startTime":1253.994,"endTime":1257.484,"body":"don't think this is a great model and"},{"startTime":1253.994,"endTime":1257.484,"body":"I don't think people should use it."},{"startTime":1257.584,"endTime":1259.464,"body":"If you're gonna hook your"},{"startTime":1257.584,"endTime":1259.464,"body":"cart to something, this is"},{"startTime":1259.464,"endTime":1260.624,"body":"not the thing to hook it to."},{"startTime":1260.634,"endTime":1260.844,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1260.884,"endTime":1262.284,"body":"That's so 60 seconds."},{"startTime":1262.324,"endTime":1263.094,"body":"I'm an outline."},{"startTime":1263.294,"endTime":1266.304,"body":"All my gripes, throw them out on"},{"startTime":1263.294,"endTime":1266.304,"body":"the table and then we'll spend"},{"startTime":1266.304,"endTime":1268.434,"body":"the rest of the podcast kind"},{"startTime":1266.304,"endTime":1268.434,"body":"of going over them one by one."},{"startTime":1268.434,"endTime":1269.564,"body":"All right, sounds good."},{"startTime":1269.574,"endTime":1272.354,"body":"All right, so I'm gonna start timer now."},{"startTime":1272.404,"endTime":1278.454,"body":"So I put the double diamond back up on"},{"startTime":1272.404,"endTime":1278.454,"body":"the screen to bound my ranting and raving."},{"startTime":1278.464,"endTime":1278.864,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1279.274,"endTime":1286.484,"body":"So number one, this double diamond,"},{"startTime":1279.274,"endTime":1286.484,"body":"like It is too easy to get this wrong."},{"startTime":1286.784,"endTime":1290.424,"body":"Like if I go into more complicated"},{"startTime":1286.784,"endTime":1290.424,"body":"versions of this double diamond,"},{"startTime":1290.424,"endTime":1292.794,"body":"especially the one where you"},{"startTime":1290.424,"endTime":1292.794,"body":"say, Oh, here's the side where"},{"startTime":1292.794,"endTime":1294.084,"body":"we're solving the right problem."},{"startTime":1294.244,"endTime":1296.934,"body":"And then the other side is we're"},{"startTime":1294.244,"endTime":1296.934,"body":"solving the problem the right way."},{"startTime":1297.304,"endTime":1300.034,"body":"And you break those two things"},{"startTime":1297.304,"endTime":1300.034,"body":"into halves, each one of them."},{"startTime":1300.524,"endTime":1303.494,"body":"It seems to imply that."},{"startTime":1303.829,"endTime":1308.449,"body":"Well, the left side is the smaller"},{"startTime":1303.829,"endTime":1308.449,"body":"team because you don't need a big team"},{"startTime":1308.449,"endTime":1310.319,"body":"to do, to find the right problems."},{"startTime":1310.629,"endTime":1311.639,"body":"I'm a smart VP."},{"startTime":1311.779,"endTime":1313.059,"body":"I'll tell you what to work on."},{"startTime":1313.239,"endTime":1316.189,"body":"So it, I could see this devolving."},{"startTime":1317.179,"endTime":1319.349,"body":"Waterfall style development."},{"startTime":1319.409,"endTime":1323.269,"body":"number two is one that we know come"},{"startTime":1319.409,"endTime":1323.269,"body":"back to on the podcast many, many"},{"startTime":1323.269,"endTime":1327.799,"body":"times, which is, it requires a."},{"startTime":1323.269,"endTime":1327.799,"body":"change to your individual team or"},{"startTime":1327.799,"endTime":1332.619,"body":"all your teams or a change in your"},{"startTime":1327.799,"endTime":1332.619,"body":"org design in order to actually be"},{"startTime":1332.619,"endTime":1333.929,"body":"able to use something like this."},{"startTime":1334.159,"endTime":1340.819,"body":"And number three, it requires a push"},{"startTime":1334.159,"endTime":1340.819,"body":"and continual support from the top"},{"startTime":1340.819,"endTime":1345.929,"body":"of your organization because typical"},{"startTime":1340.819,"endTime":1345.929,"body":"things org wide things that are pushed"},{"startTime":1345.929,"endTime":1350.389,"body":"forward, like budgeting and strategy"},{"startTime":1345.929,"endTime":1350.389,"body":"what customers are we going to sell"},{"startTime":1350.389,"endTime":1352.149,"body":"to in what order, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1352.449,"endTime":1354.529,"body":"That kind of stuff is"},{"startTime":1352.449,"endTime":1354.529,"body":"usually pushed onto teams."},{"startTime":1354.689,"endTime":1358.469,"body":"It's not things that are discovered"},{"startTime":1354.689,"endTime":1358.469,"body":"and are grassroots developed"},{"startTime":1358.659,"endTime":1359.999,"body":"from the, from the ground up."},{"startTime":1360.109,"endTime":1362.009,"body":"So those are my three main categories."},{"startTime":1362.009,"endTime":1367.439,"body":"And I have sub, sub items under each one"},{"startTime":1362.009,"endTime":1367.439,"body":"of these that we can explore, certainly"},{"startTime":1367.439,"endTime":1372.209,"body":"in conversation, but let's go through"},{"startTime":1367.439,"endTime":1372.209,"body":"number one, which is my, my pain point."},{"startTime":1372.209,"endTime":1375.129,"body":"Number one, where I don't like this,"},{"startTime":1372.209,"endTime":1375.129,"body":"I don't like the double diamond."},{"startTime":1375.429,"endTime":1378.859,"body":"pain point number one, which I think"},{"startTime":1375.429,"endTime":1378.859,"body":"is probably . My most salient point,"},{"startTime":1378.889,"endTime":1384.029,"body":"my most well thought out point is it"},{"startTime":1378.889,"endTime":1384.029,"body":"is too easy to get this diagram wrong."},{"startTime":1384.329,"endTime":1388.129,"body":"Again, when you show this wait, I'm going"},{"startTime":1384.329,"endTime":1388.129,"body":"to go to a different version of this."},{"startTime":1388.159,"endTime":1391.119,"body":"I'm going to show this other"},{"startTime":1388.159,"endTime":1391.119,"body":"one that I found online here."},{"startTime":1391.219,"endTime":1392.229,"body":"And I hate it."},{"startTime":1392.279,"endTime":1395.639,"body":"Because if you look at it, it, it's"},{"startTime":1392.279,"endTime":1395.639,"body":"broken up and chunked up in a way"},{"startTime":1395.779,"endTime":1399.209,"body":"where it implies that you can just"},{"startTime":1395.779,"endTime":1399.209,"body":"put all this stuff on the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1399.249,"endTime":1404.639,"body":"Like the problem space happens and"},{"startTime":1399.249,"endTime":1404.639,"body":"then we go through the brief and we go"},{"startTime":1404.639,"endTime":1408.919,"body":"through the potential topics and we have"},{"startTime":1404.639,"endTime":1408.919,"body":"a research phase and then we present"},{"startTime":1408.919,"endTime":1412.959,"body":"our findings at a stage gate review"},{"startTime":1408.919,"endTime":1412.959,"body":"and then we move on to the insights."},{"startTime":1413.014,"endTime":1415.224,"body":"And the themes and the opportunity areas."},{"startTime":1415.474,"endTime":1418.564,"body":"And then we have a big handoff in"},{"startTime":1415.474,"endTime":1418.564,"body":"the middle between the diamonds."},{"startTime":1418.834,"endTime":1421.304,"body":"And then we move into the"},{"startTime":1418.834,"endTime":1421.304,"body":"development phase on the right."},{"startTime":1421.464,"endTime":1423.624,"body":"And the development team is all agile."},{"startTime":1423.624,"endTime":1426.394,"body":"And the team on the left is not"},{"startTime":1423.624,"endTime":1426.394,"body":"agile in any way, shape or form."},{"startTime":1426.534,"endTime":1431.714,"body":"This is how most people when they"},{"startTime":1426.534,"endTime":1431.714,"body":"view these double diamonds, this"},{"startTime":1431.714,"endTime":1435.874,"body":"is the way that they will, in their"},{"startTime":1431.714,"endTime":1435.874,"body":"mind, they'll just formulate The"},{"startTime":1435.874,"endTime":1440.584,"body":"way of looking at it, as I just"},{"startTime":1435.874,"endTime":1440.584,"body":"described it, and that is tragic."},{"startTime":1441.074,"endTime":1446.664,"body":"So I would rather not use this,"},{"startTime":1441.074,"endTime":1446.664,"body":"this diagram to bound what we"},{"startTime":1446.664,"endTime":1448.434,"body":"think of as like business agility."},{"startTime":1448.544,"endTime":1450.734,"body":"I just, this is not a good example."},{"startTime":1450.824,"endTime":1452.614,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a fair point."},{"startTime":1452.624,"endTime":1455.944,"body":"So there are a lot of different"},{"startTime":1452.624,"endTime":1455.944,"body":"variants of this model out there."},{"startTime":1456.324,"endTime":1461.269,"body":"And every variant I've looked at"},{"startTime":1456.324,"endTime":1461.269,"body":"leaves It's one fundamental thing"},{"startTime":1461.569,"endTime":1466.229,"body":"out, which is the model is depicted"},{"startTime":1461.569,"endTime":1466.229,"body":"in two dimensional space, right?"},{"startTime":1466.529,"endTime":1469.589,"body":"It's not meant to be like that I"},{"startTime":1466.529,"endTime":1469.589,"body":"think the closest one that I've seen"},{"startTime":1469.589,"endTime":1473.609,"body":"is the spaghetti model as I call it"},{"startTime":1469.589,"endTime":1473.609,"body":"the one that we shared earlier Where"},{"startTime":1473.609,"endTime":1477.129,"body":"it looks like is basically Brownian"},{"startTime":1473.609,"endTime":1477.129,"body":"motion starts going everywhere."},{"startTime":1477.359,"endTime":1481.729,"body":"Yeah, it's not meant to be a"},{"startTime":1477.359,"endTime":1481.729,"body":"linear progression through the"},{"startTime":1481.729,"endTime":1485.689,"body":"model and this blue image that"},{"startTime":1481.729,"endTime":1485.689,"body":"you're showing Suggest that."},{"startTime":1485.719,"endTime":1487.889,"body":"It suggests that you have a"},{"startTime":1485.719,"endTime":1487.889,"body":"brief, you have a cluster of"},{"startTime":1487.889,"endTime":1489.329,"body":"topics, you do your research."},{"startTime":1489.579,"endTime":1494.659,"body":"So, these are essentially waterfall,"},{"startTime":1489.579,"endTime":1494.659,"body":"and there is no indication on this image"},{"startTime":1494.989,"endTime":1497.189,"body":"of it being an iterative model, right?"},{"startTime":1497.459,"endTime":1497.639,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1497.639,"endTime":1498.389,"body":"And that's what's missing."},{"startTime":1498.779,"endTime":1501.739,"body":"So, you have to be careful where"},{"startTime":1498.779,"endTime":1501.739,"body":"you consume your information from."},{"startTime":1501.789,"endTime":1505.579,"body":"But, if you take the simplest"},{"startTime":1501.789,"endTime":1505.579,"body":"thing you can find on this, which"},{"startTime":1505.579,"endTime":1507.229,"body":"is that very first one we showed."},{"startTime":1507.529,"endTime":1511.239,"body":"Take, tear out that piece of"},{"startTime":1507.529,"endTime":1511.239,"body":"paper and roll it up as a tube."},{"startTime":1511.319,"endTime":1512.019,"body":"That's what it is."},{"startTime":1512.019,"endTime":1513.409,"body":"You're going in 3d space."},{"startTime":1513.449,"endTime":1514.939,"body":"It's not a 2d space, right?"},{"startTime":1515.439,"endTime":1517.269,"body":"You can move from one."},{"startTime":1517.644,"endTime":1519.814,"body":"Area to the other without even knowing it."},{"startTime":1519.954,"endTime":1521.544,"body":"Here is clear boundaries like this model."},{"startTime":1521.584,"endTime":1525.424,"body":"That's the one that I use with my teams"},{"startTime":1521.584,"endTime":1525.424,"body":"to show them That life is not linear."},{"startTime":1525.424,"endTime":1528.884,"body":"Like it says here you're moving"},{"startTime":1525.424,"endTime":1528.884,"body":"all over the place And there's no"},{"startTime":1528.884,"endTime":1531.294,"body":"recipe to follow with this model."},{"startTime":1531.594,"endTime":1533.404,"body":"It's not like well, how"},{"startTime":1531.594,"endTime":1533.404,"body":"do we implement this?"},{"startTime":1533.404,"endTime":1538.059,"body":"You don't install this There is no way you"},{"startTime":1533.404,"endTime":1538.059,"body":"can say go through steps one to five They"},{"startTime":1538.059,"endTime":1543.139,"body":"don't give you that, so it's a conceptual"},{"startTime":1538.059,"endTime":1543.139,"body":"model, but the implementation is largely"},{"startTime":1543.639,"endTime":1545.749,"body":"depending on your context, right?"},{"startTime":1545.789,"endTime":1548.509,"body":"You have to implement it based"},{"startTime":1545.789,"endTime":1548.509,"body":"on the maturity of your team,"},{"startTime":1548.779,"endTime":1551.869,"body":"what you have as skill sets, the"},{"startTime":1548.779,"endTime":1551.869,"body":"knowledge level of people, etc."},{"startTime":1552.139,"endTime":1554.889,"body":"what we're looking at now is"},{"startTime":1552.139,"endTime":1554.889,"body":"like this spaghetti model."},{"startTime":1554.959,"endTime":1557.369,"body":"It looks like random spaghetti"},{"startTime":1554.959,"endTime":1557.369,"body":"has been thrown at a wall, right?"},{"startTime":1557.369,"endTime":1557.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1557.889,"endTime":1562.329,"body":"The turns and curves here indicate"},{"startTime":1557.889,"endTime":1562.329,"body":"you've either come to a learning"},{"startTime":1562.489,"endTime":1565.479,"body":"because the team investigated something"},{"startTime":1562.489,"endTime":1565.479,"body":"and found out something, right?"},{"startTime":1565.779,"endTime":1570.779,"body":"Or you've interacted with a customer"},{"startTime":1565.779,"endTime":1570.779,"body":"and changed directions based on"},{"startTime":1571.119,"endTime":1572.349,"body":"your interaction with the customer."},{"startTime":1572.349,"endTime":1574.569,"body":"So like, you either learn something new."},{"startTime":1575.039,"endTime":1579.419,"body":"From your your deep dive or you learn"},{"startTime":1575.039,"endTime":1579.419,"body":"something new from the customer so"},{"startTime":1579.419,"endTime":1583.869,"body":"like you learn something new you change"},{"startTime":1579.419,"endTime":1583.869,"body":"direction and the Again, my problem with"},{"startTime":1583.869,"endTime":1585.629,"body":"the diamond look with the traditional."},{"startTime":1585.719,"endTime":1588.139,"body":"I put the blue diagram back"},{"startTime":1585.719,"endTime":1588.139,"body":"up on the screen right now."},{"startTime":1588.489,"endTime":1595.549,"body":"The going back is kind of implied in"},{"startTime":1588.489,"endTime":1595.549,"body":"the like between the final brief and"},{"startTime":1595.549,"endTime":1598.839,"body":"the selected ideas and the selected"},{"startTime":1595.549,"endTime":1598.839,"body":"ideas and the final solution that"},{"startTime":1598.839,"endTime":1603.289,"body":"like that build test iterate you see"},{"startTime":1598.839,"endTime":1603.289,"body":"there under the deliver phase that"},{"startTime":1603.289,"endTime":1607.929,"body":"implies like, well, the development"},{"startTime":1603.289,"endTime":1607.929,"body":"team is doing the agile development."},{"startTime":1608.299,"endTime":1612.379,"body":"And then everybody else is waterfall,"},{"startTime":1608.299,"endTime":1612.379,"body":"but you know, the funny thing about"},{"startTime":1612.379,"endTime":1617.349,"body":"that is it like, that is a, that's"},{"startTime":1612.379,"endTime":1617.349,"body":"very close to reality in a lot of"},{"startTime":1617.359,"endTime":1621.139,"body":"organizations well, the development, the"},{"startTime":1617.359,"endTime":1621.139,"body":"it folks, they're trying to do this agile"},{"startTime":1621.139,"endTime":1624.339,"body":"thing they're trying to do this scrum"},{"startTime":1621.139,"endTime":1624.339,"body":"thing, this agile thing, and everybody"},{"startTime":1624.339,"endTime":1626.339,"body":"else is like traditional budgeting."},{"startTime":1626.594,"endTime":1628.174,"body":"You know, they want to know"},{"startTime":1626.594,"endTime":1628.174,"body":"when it's going to be done."},{"startTime":1628.214,"endTime":1629.394,"body":"They require a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1629.404,"endTime":1631.164,"body":"They require a timeline."},{"startTime":1631.214,"endTime":1635.444,"body":"They require a bunch of more"},{"startTime":1631.214,"endTime":1635.444,"body":"traditional style project"},{"startTime":1635.444,"endTime":1637.434,"body":"management type of deliverables."},{"startTime":1637.734,"endTime":1641.444,"body":"And on the right, on the far right,"},{"startTime":1637.734,"endTime":1641.444,"body":"the closer we get to the customer and"},{"startTime":1641.834,"endTime":1646.734,"body":"the solution being delivered, the more"},{"startTime":1641.834,"endTime":1646.734,"body":"that we're on this Plan Do Study Act"},{"startTime":1646.874,"endTime":1648.764,"body":"type of loop this PDSA Deming loop."},{"startTime":1649.194,"endTime":1653.114,"body":"Yeah, on this particular model"},{"startTime":1649.194,"endTime":1653.114,"body":"there's no notion of iteration"},{"startTime":1653.174,"endTime":1654.744,"body":"in that first diamond whatsoever."},{"startTime":1654.744,"endTime":1655.004,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1655.074,"endTime":1658.074,"body":"Which is very disappointing because"},{"startTime":1655.074,"endTime":1658.074,"body":"that's not how it should be."},{"startTime":1658.154,"endTime":1661.064,"body":"Again, the core of my"},{"startTime":1658.154,"endTime":1661.064,"body":"problem with this double dot."},{"startTime":1661.074,"endTime":1663.394,"body":"Even this simple one, let me"},{"startTime":1661.074,"endTime":1663.394,"body":"put it back on the screen."},{"startTime":1663.404,"endTime":1667.894,"body":"If we go back to the simple one, this"},{"startTime":1663.404,"endTime":1667.894,"body":"one looks like, oh, well, I have a team"},{"startTime":1667.894,"endTime":1671.454,"body":"that works in the problem space and a"},{"startTime":1667.894,"endTime":1671.454,"body":"team that works in the solution space."},{"startTime":1671.634,"endTime":1674.774,"body":"I want to call attention to this"},{"startTime":1671.634,"endTime":1674.774,"body":"Jeff Patton article that I will"},{"startTime":1674.774,"endTime":1680.824,"body":"link in the show notes about dual"},{"startTime":1674.774,"endTime":1680.824,"body":"track development where Jeff Patton"},{"startTime":1680.824,"endTime":1685.804,"body":"points out that, it's dual track"},{"startTime":1680.824,"endTime":1685.804,"body":"meaning  D U A L dual, not dual track."},{"startTime":1686.104,"endTime":1686.644,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1686.644,"endTime":1687.694,"body":"Like fighting and jousting."},{"startTime":1687.704,"endTime":1691.704,"body":"Like fighting, fighting with, with"},{"startTime":1687.704,"endTime":1691.704,"body":"pistols at dawn, like not the dual track."},{"startTime":1691.704,"endTime":1691.884,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1692.174,"endTime":1692.394,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1692.394,"endTime":1698.764,"body":"And he goes back to Desiree Sy's article"},{"startTime":1692.394,"endTime":1698.764,"body":"who first coined the term dual track."},{"startTime":1698.954,"endTime":1699.234,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1699.234,"endTime":1701.114,"body":"Dual track agile, right?"},{"startTime":1701.114,"endTime":1704.444,"body":"Where she was talking about"},{"startTime":1701.114,"endTime":1704.444,"body":"design and how the elements of"},{"startTime":1704.774,"endTime":1707.594,"body":"product design can fit into agile."},{"startTime":1707.984,"endTime":1712.274,"body":"Cause, normally design would be"},{"startTime":1707.984,"endTime":1712.274,"body":"you'd be given like a month or two."},{"startTime":1712.684,"endTime":1716.634,"body":"To go out and spec out all the, all"},{"startTime":1712.684,"endTime":1716.634,"body":"the screen wireframes and all that."},{"startTime":1716.824,"endTime":1720.604,"body":"And he handed it all over to the"},{"startTime":1716.824,"endTime":1720.604,"body":"development team, but in agile, everyone's"},{"startTime":1720.604,"endTime":1721.794,"body":"kind of doing everything together."},{"startTime":1721.794,"endTime":1725.084,"body":"So how can design fit"},{"startTime":1721.794,"endTime":1725.084,"body":"into the coding phase?"},{"startTime":1725.384,"endTime":1726.944,"body":"You know, like phases."},{"startTime":1726.949,"endTime":1727.009,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1727.009,"endTime":1727.289,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1727.359,"endTime":1727.649,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1727.654,"endTime":1727.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1727.934,"endTime":1731.294,"body":"This is 2007 is when this article,"},{"startTime":1727.934,"endTime":1731.294,"body":"again, I'll link this in the show notes"},{"startTime":1731.294,"endTime":1735.404,"body":"so people can go read it, but this is"},{"startTime":1731.294,"endTime":1735.404,"body":"where the double diamond came from."},{"startTime":1735.544,"endTime":1739.884,"body":"Jeff Patton read this letter,"},{"startTime":1735.544,"endTime":1739.884,"body":"or I'm sorry, he read this blog."},{"startTime":1739.914,"endTime":1740.724,"body":"I don't know what it was."},{"startTime":1740.724,"endTime":1741.534,"body":"I guess a paper."},{"startTime":1741.534,"endTime":1742.194,"body":"Did we have a white paper?"},{"startTime":1742.199,"endTime":1742.689,"body":"We have paper."},{"startTime":1742.689,"endTime":1743.514,"body":"I think it was a white paper."},{"startTime":1743.519,"endTime":1745.329,"body":"I think we did Well, we definitely"},{"startTime":1743.519,"endTime":1745.329,"body":"had blogs in 2000 something."},{"startTime":1745.329,"endTime":1747.144,"body":"Yeah, maybe that's where he read,"},{"startTime":1745.329,"endTime":1747.144,"body":"I think it was a white paper."},{"startTime":1747.149,"endTime":1749.559,"body":"And he says he was teaching"},{"startTime":1747.149,"endTime":1749.559,"body":"class with Marty CAgan."},{"startTime":1749.954,"endTime":1755.964,"body":"And he basically made an attempt"},{"startTime":1749.954,"endTime":1755.964,"body":"to retrace Desiree Sy's framework"},{"startTime":1756.264,"endTime":1760.124,"body":"of how design is implemented"},{"startTime":1756.264,"endTime":1760.124,"body":"into the development cycle."},{"startTime":1760.424,"endTime":1762.314,"body":"And he basically came up"},{"startTime":1760.424,"endTime":1762.314,"body":"with a double diamond."},{"startTime":1762.614,"endTime":1763.834,"body":"So that's fine."},{"startTime":1763.894,"endTime":1766.144,"body":"I'm not taking anything"},{"startTime":1763.894,"endTime":1766.144,"body":"away from Jeff Patton."},{"startTime":1766.244,"endTime":1772.564,"body":"But again, it's easy to draw out a"},{"startTime":1766.244,"endTime":1772.564,"body":"diamond Like this one on the screen."},{"startTime":1772.864,"endTime":1777.414,"body":"But  when you get into the more"},{"startTime":1772.864,"endTime":1777.414,"body":"complicated, multi phasic sort of diamond,"},{"startTime":1777.574,"endTime":1780.734,"body":"you aren't you don't have a bunch of lines"},{"startTime":1777.574,"endTime":1780.734,"body":"that go back a little bit and whatever"},{"startTime":1780.964,"endTime":1782.384,"body":"you're starting to lose the purpose."},{"startTime":1782.404,"endTime":1784.234,"body":"I just don't think this has a Fidel."},{"startTime":1784.234,"endTime":1787.068,"body":"I think you're, you're leading"},{"startTime":1784.234,"endTime":1787.068,"body":"people down the wrong path."},{"startTime":1787.219,"endTime":1788.659,"body":"And it's too easy to get wrong."},{"startTime":1788.669,"endTime":1791.789,"body":"When I look at something like this"},{"startTime":1788.669,"endTime":1791.789,"body":"it says, well, it looks like I can do"},{"startTime":1791.799,"endTime":1795.579,"body":"all the discovery up front and then I"},{"startTime":1791.799,"endTime":1795.579,"body":"can do all the definition and get all"},{"startTime":1795.579,"endTime":1798.779,"body":"the requirements next and I can do all"},{"startTime":1795.579,"endTime":1798.779,"body":"the development next and I can do all"},{"startTime":1798.779,"endTime":1802.089,"body":"the delivery and my customers will be"},{"startTime":1798.779,"endTime":1802.089,"body":"100 percent happy after it's all over."},{"startTime":1802.269,"endTime":1803.629,"body":"And you know what that sounds like to me?"},{"startTime":1803.929,"endTime":1804.559,"body":"Fragile."},{"startTime":1804.569,"endTime":1806.119,"body":"It sounds like waterfall development."},{"startTime":1806.149,"endTime":1806.529,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1806.589,"endTime":1809.169,"body":"Nobody even remembers what"},{"startTime":1806.589,"endTime":1809.169,"body":"waterfall development is, but"},{"startTime":1809.169,"endTime":1810.129,"body":"that's what it sounds like."},{"startTime":1810.429,"endTime":1814.499,"body":"Yeah, so this has the notion of getting"},{"startTime":1810.429,"endTime":1814.499,"body":"all the requirements up front, etc. And"},{"startTime":1814.609,"endTime":1819.029,"body":"this is actually doing the community as a"},{"startTime":1814.609,"endTime":1819.029,"body":"whole a little bit of a disservice because"},{"startTime":1819.059,"endTime":1823.359,"body":"if you come across this on the internet,"},{"startTime":1819.059,"endTime":1823.359,"body":"and think this is what's encapsulated"},{"startTime":1823.399,"endTime":1827.389,"body":"under that double diamond model,"},{"startTime":1823.399,"endTime":1827.389,"body":"you'd be leading down the wrong path."},{"startTime":1827.739,"endTime":1831.929,"body":"So we've seen several of these as we"},{"startTime":1827.739,"endTime":1831.929,"body":"were just about to start the podcast."},{"startTime":1831.949,"endTime":1833.179,"body":"We looked at a few images."},{"startTime":1833.599,"endTime":1836.799,"body":"Frankly, none of them actually"},{"startTime":1833.599,"endTime":1836.799,"body":"Encapsulate the fact that this is"},{"startTime":1836.829,"endTime":1838.959,"body":"continuous ongoing and not linear"},{"startTime":1839.279,"endTime":1843.139,"body":"The other thing about these diagrams"},{"startTime":1839.279,"endTime":1843.139,"body":"like what gets lost in the translation"},{"startTime":1843.139,"endTime":1848.369,"body":"is this is one team Like the designer the"},{"startTime":1843.139,"endTime":1848.369,"body":"developers the product manager everybody."},{"startTime":1848.379,"endTime":1852.099,"body":"This is one team With multiple"},{"startTime":1848.379,"endTime":1852.099,"body":"skill sets, but when you blend them"},{"startTime":1852.099,"endTime":1856.729,"body":"all together, they have one skill"},{"startTime":1852.099,"endTime":1856.729,"body":"set together as a blended group."},{"startTime":1857.079,"endTime":1858.249,"body":"it's so easy to get wrong."},{"startTime":1858.459,"endTime":1861.099,"body":"when you show this double"},{"startTime":1858.459,"endTime":1861.099,"body":"diamond two executives, unless"},{"startTime":1861.099,"endTime":1862.109,"body":"you can give them a path."},{"startTime":1862.409,"endTime":1864.629,"body":"They're not going to understand"},{"startTime":1862.409,"endTime":1864.629,"body":"that like, Oh, well the team has to"},{"startTime":1864.839,"endTime":1867.089,"body":"figure out the best way to do this."},{"startTime":1867.089,"endTime":1872.129,"body":"the team might go from phase A to C"},{"startTime":1867.089,"endTime":1872.129,"body":"to D to B to back and forth, right?"},{"startTime":1872.129,"endTime":1874.159,"body":"They might go like, it's nonlinear."},{"startTime":1874.429,"endTime":1879.319,"body":"You don't follow from path A to B to"},{"startTime":1874.429,"endTime":1879.319,"body":"C to D. That's not the way it works."},{"startTime":1879.369,"endTime":1881.729,"body":"You can go from any"},{"startTime":1879.369,"endTime":1881.729,"body":"step to any other step."},{"startTime":1882.029,"endTime":1882.619,"body":"Very true."},{"startTime":1882.859,"endTime":1888.049,"body":"And you said at the beginning, right, why"},{"startTime":1882.859,"endTime":1888.049,"body":"some of these things are prone to failure."},{"startTime":1888.089,"endTime":1889.609,"body":"They're hard to implement."},{"startTime":1889.789,"endTime":1893.729,"body":"It's not just because there's no"},{"startTime":1889.789,"endTime":1893.729,"body":"clarity around the model itself, because"},{"startTime":1893.729,"endTime":1897.739,"body":"there are so many variants, but also"},{"startTime":1893.729,"endTime":1897.739,"body":"The model does not include steps."},{"startTime":1898.039,"endTime":1901.189,"body":"So it doesn't say do these"},{"startTime":1898.039,"endTime":1901.189,"body":"things in this sequence, right?"},{"startTime":1901.189,"endTime":1903.949,"body":"It doesn't say that teams have got"},{"startTime":1901.189,"endTime":1903.949,"body":"to figure that out for themselves"},{"startTime":1904.319,"endTime":1907.559,"body":"you could be spending an untold"},{"startTime":1904.319,"endTime":1907.559,"body":"amount of time somewhere in there"},{"startTime":1907.979,"endTime":1911.729,"body":"But in the meantime Your management"},{"startTime":1907.979,"endTime":1911.729,"body":"saying, where are you with this?"},{"startTime":1911.759,"endTime":1912.679,"body":"When's it going to be done?"},{"startTime":1912.889,"endTime":1915.039,"body":"So there's that overt pressure, right?"},{"startTime":1915.119,"endTime":1918.729,"body":"To, get out of that messy middle"},{"startTime":1915.119,"endTime":1918.729,"body":"and shortcut the conversations."},{"startTime":1919.029,"endTime":1923.219,"body":"All that leads to, yes, you'll have"},{"startTime":1919.029,"endTime":1923.219,"body":"something, but the quality won't be there."},{"startTime":1923.269,"endTime":1926.469,"body":"And you may miss the mark all together"},{"startTime":1923.269,"endTime":1926.469,"body":"with satisfying the customer's need."},{"startTime":1926.469,"endTime":1930.219,"body":"Well the one last thing that I want to"},{"startTime":1926.469,"endTime":1930.219,"body":"do, and we'll get onto the next category,"},{"startTime":1930.219,"endTime":1931.499,"body":"but the one last thing I want to."},{"startTime":1931.699,"endTime":1937.319,"body":"Say about this is the drive to start down"},{"startTime":1931.699,"endTime":1937.319,"body":"the road of, we should be doing this type"},{"startTime":1937.319,"endTime":1941.319,"body":"of development rather than our current"},{"startTime":1937.319,"endTime":1941.319,"body":"phase gates sort of waterfall type of"},{"startTime":1941.379,"endTime":1945.949,"body":"all the requirements and all the design"},{"startTime":1941.379,"endTime":1945.949,"body":"and all the tests or whatever you do."},{"startTime":1946.249,"endTime":1951.829,"body":"Is there's no immediate clear ROI in why"},{"startTime":1946.249,"endTime":1951.829,"body":"should I move to this double diamond type"},{"startTime":1951.829,"endTime":1955.799,"body":"of thing like the, the immediate clear"},{"startTime":1951.829,"endTime":1955.799,"body":"like, okay, well I'm going to move to"},{"startTime":1956.209,"endTime":1960.889,"body":"all the problem set definition up front"},{"startTime":1956.209,"endTime":1960.889,"body":"and then all of the honing down and the"},{"startTime":1960.889,"endTime":1964.519,"body":"selecting problem set up front and then"},{"startTime":1960.889,"endTime":1964.519,"body":"all of the development on the problem"},{"startTime":1964.519,"endTime":1968.549,"body":"I've chosen and then all the delivery of"},{"startTime":1964.519,"endTime":1968.549,"body":"the problem I've chosen in that order."},{"startTime":1968.849,"endTime":1972.499,"body":"And then onto the next problem that's"},{"startTime":1968.849,"endTime":1972.499,"body":"behind it because remember, We chose all"},{"startTime":1972.499,"endTime":1976.749,"body":"the problems up front so we now have a"},{"startTime":1972.499,"endTime":1976.749,"body":"ranked list of problems So we can just"},{"startTime":1976.929,"endTime":1981.209,"body":"run down the list of problems and develop"},{"startTime":1976.929,"endTime":1981.209,"body":"with more and more teams and we'll be"},{"startTime":1981.209,"endTime":1986.379,"body":"delivering the highest value things Right"},{"startTime":1981.209,"endTime":1986.379,"body":"like the illusion of progress there's"},{"startTime":1986.379,"endTime":1991.649,"body":"no like even that that sounds pretty"},{"startTime":1986.379,"endTime":1991.649,"body":"structured when I say it out loud but"},{"startTime":1991.649,"endTime":1995.569,"body":"even that you know, like when you start"},{"startTime":1991.649,"endTime":1995.569,"body":"delivering the first problem set as"},{"startTime":1995.569,"endTime":1998.099,"body":"solutions We will discover other things."},{"startTime":1998.149,"endTime":2000.759,"body":"So there'll be feedback and"},{"startTime":1998.149,"endTime":2000.759,"body":"then the customer's upset."},{"startTime":2000.759,"endTime":2001.969,"body":"So you're going to jump on something else."},{"startTime":2001.979,"endTime":2006.569,"body":"The clear immediate, like most of"},{"startTime":2001.979,"endTime":2006.569,"body":"the finance people that run most"},{"startTime":2006.579,"endTime":2010.289,"body":"organizations, I'm making broad"},{"startTime":2006.579,"endTime":2010.289,"body":"sweeping statements on the podcast"},{"startTime":2010.289,"endTime":2014.739,"body":"today are looking for what is the"},{"startTime":2010.289,"endTime":2014.739,"body":"ROI on us changing our business"},{"startTime":2014.739,"endTime":2017.719,"body":"model to start servicing these"},{"startTime":2014.739,"endTime":2017.719,"body":"things over these things or whatever."},{"startTime":2017.719,"endTime":2019.889,"body":"And it's just not clear."},{"startTime":2020.189,"endTime":2022.959,"body":"In this setup, you need more"},{"startTime":2020.189,"endTime":2022.959,"body":"details is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2022.959,"endTime":2024.059,"body":"You need more product management."},{"startTime":2024.059,"endTime":2024.919,"body":"You need more details."},{"startTime":2024.919,"endTime":2027.439,"body":"I think we've beat this"},{"startTime":2024.919,"endTime":2027.439,"body":"one category up enough."},{"startTime":2027.919,"endTime":2032.019,"body":"I'd like to move on to the next one,"},{"startTime":2027.919,"endTime":2032.019,"body":"which is... In order to present this"},{"startTime":2032.319,"endTime":2034.629,"body":"properly it requires a culture change."},{"startTime":2034.929,"endTime":2038.069,"body":"It requires a culture change and, or."},{"startTime":2038.369,"endTime":2040.949,"body":"In organizational design change."},{"startTime":2041.009,"endTime":2041.349,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2041.489,"endTime":2045.369,"body":"I have to have a truly cross functional"},{"startTime":2041.489,"endTime":2045.369,"body":"team with all the right people on the"},{"startTime":2045.369,"endTime":2049.719,"body":"team to handle this line of business,"},{"startTime":2045.369,"endTime":2049.719,"body":"like this product, this group of"},{"startTime":2049.739,"endTime":2051.049,"body":"customers, whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":2051.049,"endTime":2052.709,"body":"Doesn't really matter how you slice it."},{"startTime":2052.959,"endTime":2057.119,"body":"I'm going to say product, but product"},{"startTime":2052.959,"endTime":2057.119,"body":"is just an umbrella term for a"},{"startTime":2057.119,"endTime":2060.709,"body":"group of customers using a certain"},{"startTime":2057.119,"endTime":2060.709,"body":"set of features, whatever it is."},{"startTime":2061.039,"endTime":2061.569,"body":"Most."},{"startTime":2061.869,"endTime":2066.409,"body":"Organizations you will start bending and"},{"startTime":2061.869,"endTime":2066.409,"body":"potentially breaking your organization"},{"startTime":2066.409,"endTime":2070.519,"body":"when you're like, I need a, like the"},{"startTime":2066.409,"endTime":2070.519,"body":"hiring manager for engineering should"},{"startTime":2070.519,"endTime":2072.539,"body":"hire the people for engineering."},{"startTime":2072.579,"endTime":2073.939,"body":"And then they sit on my team."},{"startTime":2074.199,"endTime":2079.639,"body":"So they, technically they work"},{"startTime":2074.199,"endTime":2079.639,"body":"for me as my partners, but they"},{"startTime":2079.639,"endTime":2082.979,"body":"report to the engineering manager"},{"startTime":2079.639,"endTime":2082.979,"body":"and then the product manager."},{"startTime":2083.359,"endTime":2086.739,"body":"The product leadership, because"},{"startTime":2083.359,"endTime":2086.739,"body":"that's what we call people that hire"},{"startTime":2086.739,"endTime":2089.929,"body":"product managers now, we call them"},{"startTime":2086.739,"endTime":2089.929,"body":"product leadership, weird they hire"},{"startTime":2089.929,"endTime":2092.589,"body":"the product manager who sits on my"},{"startTime":2089.929,"endTime":2092.589,"body":"team, and then maybe you have testers,"},{"startTime":2092.759,"endTime":2093.929,"body":"maybe you have other people, right?"},{"startTime":2094.189,"endTime":2097.289,"body":"Like, all this cross functional"},{"startTime":2094.189,"endTime":2097.289,"body":"skill is on my team, they're all"},{"startTime":2097.289,"endTime":2102.149,"body":"hired by other people, but they're"},{"startTime":2097.289,"endTime":2102.149,"body":"all loaned slash staffed to my team."},{"startTime":2102.449,"endTime":2105.779,"body":"I hope they don't have departmental"},{"startTime":2102.449,"endTime":2105.779,"body":"goals that kind of take them off of"},{"startTime":2105.779,"endTime":2108.509,"body":"my team and distract them, right?"},{"startTime":2108.569,"endTime":2113.509,"body":"Even just that getting a cross section"},{"startTime":2108.569,"endTime":2113.509,"body":"of all these different skill sets on"},{"startTime":2113.509,"endTime":2118.929,"body":"your team even that might be a fight"},{"startTime":2113.509,"endTime":2118.929,"body":"in your organization and then getting"},{"startTime":2119.229,"endTime":2123.969,"body":"your organization to commit to Hey,"},{"startTime":2119.229,"endTime":2123.969,"body":"we need advanced facilitation skills."},{"startTime":2124.099,"endTime":2126.209,"body":"We need to advance these"},{"startTime":2124.099,"endTime":2126.209,"body":"people's communication skills."},{"startTime":2126.359,"endTime":2129.889,"body":"We need to, like the 198 Crucial"},{"startTime":2126.359,"endTime":2129.889,"body":"Conversations, we need to go deep"},{"startTime":2129.899,"endTime":2134.049,"body":"on the ability for these folks to"},{"startTime":2129.899,"endTime":2134.049,"body":"mesh with each other  I wanna go"},{"startTime":2134.049,"endTime":2137.659,"body":"back to your excellent PowerPoint"},{"startTime":2134.049,"endTime":2137.659,"body":"slide in the emergence zone here."},{"startTime":2137.709,"endTime":2140.449,"body":"So, in here, the emergent."},{"startTime":2140.749,"endTime":2146.159,"body":"Column in here, the broadest surface"},{"startTime":2140.749,"endTime":2146.159,"body":"of the diamond where you have the"},{"startTime":2146.159,"endTime":2147.569,"body":"emergent conversations happening."},{"startTime":2147.719,"endTime":2152.309,"body":"I want my team to excel"},{"startTime":2147.719,"endTime":2152.309,"body":"in the emergent category."},{"startTime":2152.529,"endTime":2156.839,"body":"And which is where I would say probably"},{"startTime":2152.529,"endTime":2156.839,"body":"most teams suffer the most is when"},{"startTime":2156.839,"endTime":2158.149,"body":"they get in the emergent category"},{"startTime":2158.269,"endTime":2161.319,"body":"again we're talking about my gripe"},{"startTime":2158.269,"endTime":2161.319,"body":"here, in case people got lost."},{"startTime":2161.819,"endTime":2167.549,"body":"My gripe here is it requires a cultural"},{"startTime":2161.819,"endTime":2167.549,"body":"change or an organizational design change."},{"startTime":2167.849,"endTime":2171.509,"body":"Most teams will push back against"},{"startTime":2167.849,"endTime":2171.509,"body":"having that person with excellent"},{"startTime":2171.519,"endTime":2175.859,"body":"facilitation skills to bring"},{"startTime":2171.519,"endTime":2175.859,"body":"people through that emergent phase"},{"startTime":2176.039,"endTime":2177.499,"body":"and make something out of it."},{"startTime":2177.529,"endTime":2179.829,"body":"Where we're converging on the best ideas."},{"startTime":2180.129,"endTime":2184.289,"body":"You want to stump a product manager tell"},{"startTime":2180.129,"endTime":2184.289,"body":"me what your system for prioritizing"},{"startTime":2184.289,"endTime":2186.629,"body":"one idea over another idea is."},{"startTime":2186.779,"endTime":2188.079,"body":"You have a dozen ideas."},{"startTime":2188.549,"endTime":2189.949,"body":"You can only test one at a time."},{"startTime":2190.249,"endTime":2191.969,"body":"Tell me which idea you're"},{"startTime":2190.249,"endTime":2191.969,"body":"going to start with."},{"startTime":2192.319,"endTime":2195.709,"body":"That's the act of moving"},{"startTime":2192.319,"endTime":2195.709,"body":"from emergent to convergent."},{"startTime":2195.709,"endTime":2195.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2196.219,"endTime":2199.139,"body":"Yeah, most organizations are weak"},{"startTime":2196.219,"endTime":2199.139,"body":"at this, first of all, right?"},{"startTime":2199.169,"endTime":2200.919,"body":"that, in my experience anyway."},{"startTime":2201.009,"endTime":2205.039,"body":"I will tell you for our listeners,"},{"startTime":2201.009,"endTime":2205.039,"body":"that is a huge advantage."},{"startTime":2205.339,"endTime":2208.189,"body":"Most people are weak at this so"},{"startTime":2205.339,"endTime":2208.189,"body":"you can pull ahead of the pack."},{"startTime":2208.299,"endTime":2213.549,"body":"That's exactly right try this and"},{"startTime":2208.299,"endTime":2213.549,"body":"listen, there's no Fail or pass at"},{"startTime":2213.559,"endTime":2217.899,"body":"this try it and you'll stumble like"},{"startTime":2213.559,"endTime":2217.899,"body":"everybody does Pick yourself up and"},{"startTime":2217.909,"endTime":2220.579,"body":"move on but make it work for you."},{"startTime":2220.629,"endTime":2222.119,"body":"that's the goal here."},{"startTime":2222.459,"endTime":2226.839,"body":"On this diagram where it says in bold"},{"startTime":2222.459,"endTime":2226.839,"body":"at the bottom, life is not linear."},{"startTime":2227.149,"endTime":2228.109,"body":"Just remember that."},{"startTime":2228.119,"endTime":2232.129,"body":"So when someone says, well, we've been"},{"startTime":2228.119,"endTime":2232.129,"body":"in these discussions, can we move on?"},{"startTime":2232.379,"endTime":2233.879,"body":"We'll move on for the right reason."},{"startTime":2233.889,"endTime":2236.319,"body":"Not because the model"},{"startTime":2233.889,"endTime":2236.319,"body":"says you should move on."},{"startTime":2236.319,"endTime":2236.579,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2237.129,"endTime":2239.449,"body":"You got other reasons why"},{"startTime":2237.129,"endTime":2239.449,"body":"you don't like it too, right?"},{"startTime":2239.499,"endTime":2242.819,"body":"I do have another reason, but I want"},{"startTime":2239.499,"endTime":2242.819,"body":"to stay here for one more second to say"},{"startTime":2242.819,"endTime":2248.269,"body":"I wouldn't have such a hang up with"},{"startTime":2242.819,"endTime":2248.269,"body":"this if it weren't for the issue with"},{"startTime":2248.269,"endTime":2252.259,"body":"when it comes to org design, it's just"},{"startTime":2248.269,"endTime":2252.259,"body":"like organizations are just not open to"},{"startTime":2252.259,"endTime":2256.289,"body":"saying like, Oh, well, all the engineers"},{"startTime":2252.259,"endTime":2256.289,"body":"are over here in this silo and all the"},{"startTime":2256.309,"endTime":2259.909,"body":"designers are over here in this silo and"},{"startTime":2256.309,"endTime":2259.909,"body":"All the testers are over here in the silo,"},{"startTime":2259.909,"endTime":2264.639,"body":"like organizations just, they tend to"},{"startTime":2259.909,"endTime":2264.639,"body":"gravitate to that for some strange reason."},{"startTime":2264.889,"endTime":2266.069,"body":"And I really don't know why."},{"startTime":2266.369,"endTime":2270.349,"body":"I think the reason, at least as"},{"startTime":2266.369,"endTime":2270.349,"body":"I understand it, is historical."},{"startTime":2270.399,"endTime":2273.789,"body":"We came from that whole"},{"startTime":2270.399,"endTime":2273.789,"body":"environment of command and control."},{"startTime":2273.829,"endTime":2277.219,"body":"This is how the teams were"},{"startTime":2273.829,"endTime":2277.219,"body":"built to report to somebody."},{"startTime":2277.239,"endTime":2277.479,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2277.759,"endTime":2285.139,"body":"Today, we're at a point where Not only is"},{"startTime":2277.759,"endTime":2285.139,"body":"the organizational structure not amenable"},{"startTime":2285.179,"endTime":2287.059,"body":"to using this kind of a model, right?"},{"startTime":2287.269,"endTime":2291.539,"body":"There are other things like for example,"},{"startTime":2287.269,"endTime":2291.539,"body":"how are people rewarded that's never"},{"startTime":2291.619,"endTime":2295.469,"body":"going to fit in this model If you're"},{"startTime":2291.619,"endTime":2295.469,"body":"going to reward people on fast delivery"},{"startTime":2295.529,"endTime":2300.364,"body":"only As opposed to effectiveness and"},{"startTime":2295.529,"endTime":2300.364,"body":"quality and making customers happy."},{"startTime":2300.664,"endTime":2304.824,"body":"Yeah, I mean, leadership's gonna, or"},{"startTime":2300.664,"endTime":2304.824,"body":"at this stage, there'll be management."},{"startTime":2305.064,"endTime":2307.534,"body":"They'd be focusing on"},{"startTime":2305.064,"endTime":2307.534,"body":"the wrong things, right?"},{"startTime":2307.564,"endTime":2309.724,"body":"And rewarding you for"},{"startTime":2307.564,"endTime":2309.724,"body":"being the fastest person."},{"startTime":2310.024,"endTime":2313.034,"body":"Because leadership will say,"},{"startTime":2310.024,"endTime":2313.034,"body":"well, shouldn't you just move on?"},{"startTime":2313.034,"endTime":2316.674,"body":"Because you're agile,"},{"startTime":2313.034,"endTime":2316.674,"body":"fast fail, so move on."},{"startTime":2317.044,"endTime":2319.174,"body":"It's like, well, you missed the goal here."},{"startTime":2319.414,"endTime":2319.734,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2320.144,"endTime":2320.354,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2320.414,"endTime":2322.304,"body":"And customer centricity"},{"startTime":2320.414,"endTime":2322.304,"body":"is the other thing."},{"startTime":2322.304,"endTime":2326.184,"body":"Like oftentimes, regardless of the"},{"startTime":2322.304,"endTime":2326.184,"body":"model, this is another example of"},{"startTime":2326.484,"endTime":2330.734,"body":"yet another model where the customer"},{"startTime":2326.484,"endTime":2330.734,"body":"is nowhere to be seen past the very"},{"startTime":2330.734,"endTime":2334.804,"body":"left side where you've met them, got"},{"startTime":2330.734,"endTime":2334.804,"body":"their requirements and then moved on."},{"startTime":2335.019,"endTime":2335.319,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2335.599,"endTime":2336.189,"body":"That's wrong."},{"startTime":2336.269,"endTime":2338.499,"body":"This model doesn't say that you should do."},{"startTime":2338.539,"endTime":2339.489,"body":"You should not do that."},{"startTime":2339.529,"endTime":2342.869,"body":"Obviously, you should have the"},{"startTime":2339.529,"endTime":2342.869,"body":"customer in all the while with you."},{"startTime":2343.269,"endTime":2346.249,"body":"And if that's what I was saying,"},{"startTime":2343.269,"endTime":2346.249,"body":"if you take this two dimensional"},{"startTime":2346.249,"endTime":2349.549,"body":"piece of paper, roll it up the"},{"startTime":2346.249,"endTime":2349.549,"body":"customers there with you, right?"},{"startTime":2349.599,"endTime":2353.739,"body":"So in that messy middle, if they're"},{"startTime":2349.599,"endTime":2353.739,"body":"listening in, there's no harm."},{"startTime":2354.084,"endTime":2358.854,"body":"They can actually add clarifying"},{"startTime":2354.084,"endTime":2358.854,"body":"statements to your discussions, right?"},{"startTime":2359.274,"endTime":2362.154,"body":"If you didn't have them, you're"},{"startTime":2359.274,"endTime":2362.154,"body":"now going based off of assumptions."},{"startTime":2362.454,"endTime":2365.054,"body":"Well, I want to move on to"},{"startTime":2362.454,"endTime":2365.054,"body":"my last category so we can"},{"startTime":2365.054,"endTime":2367.314,"body":"wrap up this podcast slowly."},{"startTime":2367.664,"endTime":2373.044,"body":"This double diamond it requires a"},{"startTime":2367.664,"endTime":2373.044,"body":"a continual pushing from the top"},{"startTime":2373.344,"endTime":2376.504,"body":"Which includes budget and strategy"},{"startTime":2376.904,"endTime":2382.179,"body":"."},{"startTime":2376.904,"endTime":2382.179,"body":"Okay, and I think about two things"},{"startTime":2382.189,"endTime":2386.229,"body":"financing your portfolio, which is all"},{"startTime":2382.189,"endTime":2386.229,"body":"the projects or products or whatever you"},{"startTime":2386.229,"endTime":2392.519,"body":"have your company and going in front of"},{"startTime":2386.229,"endTime":2392.519,"body":"the the big snake pit of finance and the"},{"startTime":2392.519,"endTime":2396.489,"body":"VPs or leadership or whatever you have"},{"startTime":2392.519,"endTime":2396.489,"body":"the sea level whatever Asking for more"},{"startTime":2396.489,"endTime":2399.509,"body":"money like once a year and you may you"},{"startTime":2396.489,"endTime":2399.509,"body":"know You make it through that your once a"},{"startTime":2399.509,"endTime":2403.574,"body":"year thing, you know You don't have to do"},{"startTime":2399.509,"endTime":2403.574,"body":"anything for 364 more days of the year."},{"startTime":2403.664,"endTime":2404.514,"body":"It sounds ridiculous."},{"startTime":2404.694,"endTime":2408.764,"body":"Like a better way to do it would"},{"startTime":2404.694,"endTime":2408.764,"body":"be like micro budgeting, breaking"},{"startTime":2408.764,"endTime":2409.944,"body":"it down to a smaller segment."},{"startTime":2410.244,"endTime":2411.654,"body":"Same thing for strategy."},{"startTime":2411.684,"endTime":2412.864,"body":"This is just my personal."},{"startTime":2413.154,"endTime":2417.654,"body":"Experience the best companies I've"},{"startTime":2413.154,"endTime":2417.654,"body":"ever been at do strategy in terms of"},{"startTime":2417.724,"endTime":2422.554,"body":"what big bets are we making and then"},{"startTime":2417.724,"endTime":2422.554,"body":"what is the progress toward those bets."},{"startTime":2423.024,"endTime":2427.034,"body":"We answer those two questions and we're"},{"startTime":2423.024,"endTime":2427.034,"body":"talking with leadership every week."},{"startTime":2427.044,"endTime":2429.704,"body":"I mean, probably every other week, right?"},{"startTime":2429.754,"endTime":2432.564,"body":"but definitely more than , once"},{"startTime":2429.754,"endTime":2432.564,"body":"a quarter once a quarter is like,"},{"startTime":2432.744,"endTime":2434.034,"body":"you're not even in the backseat."},{"startTime":2434.034,"endTime":2437.154,"body":"Once a quarter, you're like in another"},{"startTime":2434.034,"endTime":2437.154,"body":"car and you're just rolling up on the"},{"startTime":2437.154,"endTime":2440.184,"body":"highway and like looking in the other"},{"startTime":2437.154,"endTime":2440.184,"body":"car to see what's happening once every"},{"startTime":2440.184,"endTime":2443.484,"body":"other week is you're at least in the"},{"startTime":2440.184,"endTime":2443.484,"body":"backseat and you say like, Hey, have"},{"startTime":2443.484,"endTime":2448.084,"body":"we, are you sure that we maybe we"},{"startTime":2443.484,"endTime":2448.084,"body":"gotta stop and go to the bathroom and"},{"startTime":2448.084,"endTime":2449.074,"body":"get some Mountain Dew or something"},{"startTime":2449.124,"endTime":2449.394,"body":"Like that."},{"startTime":2449.424,"endTime":2450.954,"body":"That's like once every other week."},{"startTime":2451.004,"endTime":2453.374,"body":"Once a week is you're"},{"startTime":2451.004,"endTime":2453.374,"body":"in the passenger seat."},{"startTime":2453.454,"endTime":2456.924,"body":"And you can really check in on"},{"startTime":2453.454,"endTime":2456.924,"body":"strategy and the experience that"},{"startTime":2456.924,"endTime":2458.164,"body":"are happening like once a week."},{"startTime":2458.484,"endTime":2463.883,"body":"So there's different levels and also the"},{"startTime":2458.484,"endTime":2463.883,"body":"different level of org maturity can also"},{"startTime":2463.883,"endTime":2466.143,"body":"determine how often you should meet."},{"startTime":2466.443,"endTime":2469.873,"body":"But if we go back to the podcast"},{"startTime":2466.443,"endTime":2469.873,"body":"that we did, the 201 that we did"},{"startTime":2469.883,"endTime":2471.873,"body":"on the power influence matrix."},{"startTime":2472.238,"endTime":2476.428,"body":"these, high power, low"},{"startTime":2472.238,"endTime":2476.428,"body":"interest stakeholders."},{"startTime":2476.518,"endTime":2477.668,"body":"That's what we're talking about now."},{"startTime":2478.048,"endTime":2482.578,"body":"It's like, if they're high power, they're"},{"startTime":2478.048,"endTime":2482.578,"body":"a low interest, which means they're not"},{"startTime":2482.578,"endTime":2484.068,"body":"going to check in with you all the time."},{"startTime":2484.168,"endTime":2487.108,"body":"They might occasionally"},{"startTime":2484.168,"endTime":2487.108,"body":"come to your sprint review."},{"startTime":2487.398,"endTime":2489.838,"body":"They'll definitely be in"},{"startTime":2487.398,"endTime":2489.838,"body":"the quarterly sync with you."},{"startTime":2490.138,"endTime":2492.468,"body":"But if you are not paying"},{"startTime":2490.138,"endTime":2492.468,"body":"attention to their needs."},{"startTime":2492.768,"endTime":2496.248,"body":"They're really going to rake you over"},{"startTime":2492.768,"endTime":2496.248,"body":"the coals in the quarterly to be like,"},{"startTime":2496.248,"endTime":2497.738,"body":"what are you doing in the roadmap?"},{"startTime":2497.788,"endTime":2500.488,"body":"None of this reflects what"},{"startTime":2497.788,"endTime":2500.488,"body":"my customers are telling me."},{"startTime":2500.948,"endTime":2502.168,"body":"How did you even get to here?"},{"startTime":2502.388,"endTime":2506.998,"body":"And if you have those difficult"},{"startTime":2502.388,"endTime":2506.998,"body":"conversations, you will know that like,"},{"startTime":2507.008,"endTime":2511.428,"body":"you've got a big problem in strategy,"},{"startTime":2507.008,"endTime":2511.428,"body":"and that's going to roll back up to"},{"startTime":2511.428,"endTime":2516.508,"body":"whatever portfolio planning you have"},{"startTime":2511.428,"endTime":2516.508,"body":"at your company But in companies I've"},{"startTime":2516.508,"endTime":2520.468,"body":"been at that are multiple products and"},{"startTime":2516.508,"endTime":2520.468,"body":"they're trying to sell those multiple"},{"startTime":2520.468,"endTime":2524.948,"body":"products across all of their customers,"},{"startTime":2520.468,"endTime":2524.948,"body":"that's what I think of as a portfolio."},{"startTime":2525.248,"endTime":2527.838,"body":"Those people, like all your"},{"startTime":2525.248,"endTime":2527.838,"body":"product managers for all the"},{"startTime":2527.838,"endTime":2529.928,"body":"products, need to be together."},{"startTime":2530.253,"endTime":2533.733,"body":"In those strategy meetings to talk"},{"startTime":2530.253,"endTime":2533.733,"body":"about how are we going to cross sell?"},{"startTime":2533.913,"endTime":2537.163,"body":"How are we going to make the"},{"startTime":2533.913,"endTime":2537.163,"body":"cross product value a big thing?"},{"startTime":2537.173,"endTime":2541.473,"body":"This, like it needs a"},{"startTime":2537.173,"endTime":2541.473,"body":"continual push from the top."},{"startTime":2541.773,"endTime":2544.903,"body":"And again, like this double"},{"startTime":2541.773,"endTime":2544.903,"body":"diamond is, it seems like."},{"startTime":2545.178,"endTime":2549.548,"body":"We do all the requirements up front"},{"startTime":2545.178,"endTime":2549.548,"body":"and we do all the validation up front."},{"startTime":2549.708,"endTime":2553.618,"body":"And then in the middle where the two"},{"startTime":2549.708,"endTime":2553.618,"body":"diamonds meet, we do a big handoff"},{"startTime":2553.778,"endTime":2557.698,"body":"where the discovery team's done and"},{"startTime":2553.778,"endTime":2557.698,"body":"the delivery team takes hold of it."},{"startTime":2557.908,"endTime":2559.658,"body":"And then they have to do nothing else."},{"startTime":2559.888,"endTime":2564.248,"body":"But then what the other team did in"},{"startTime":2559.888,"endTime":2564.248,"body":"the diamond, it's deceptive to me"},{"startTime":2564.438,"endTime":2566.898,"body":"that the two diamonds are one team."},{"startTime":2567.228,"endTime":2571.488,"body":"In one process and the stuff in the"},{"startTime":2567.228,"endTime":2571.488,"body":"second diamond might wheel back to the"},{"startTime":2571.488,"endTime":2575.908,"body":"stuff in the first diamond like over"},{"startTime":2571.488,"endTime":2575.908,"body":"and over and over again to get to where"},{"startTime":2576.208,"endTime":2577.488,"body":"we're delivering something of value."},{"startTime":2577.968,"endTime":2581.168,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a good way to"},{"startTime":2577.968,"endTime":2581.168,"body":"look at it that it's really just"},{"startTime":2581.168,"endTime":2584.168,"body":"one diamond for the sake of clarity."},{"startTime":2584.298,"endTime":2584.328,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2584.338,"endTime":2585.368,"body":"They draw two diamonds."},{"startTime":2585.668,"endTime":2586.958,"body":"I'm okay with that too, right?"},{"startTime":2586.958,"endTime":2589.818,"body":"Listen, none of this stuff is"},{"startTime":2586.958,"endTime":2589.818,"body":"understood very well, right?"},{"startTime":2589.868,"endTime":2590.908,"body":"That's part of the problem."},{"startTime":2590.908,"endTime":2595.998,"body":"So when leadership, when you talk about"},{"startTime":2590.908,"endTime":2595.998,"body":"making micro budgets, for example, or,"},{"startTime":2596.328,"endTime":2598.538,"body":"or not having this annual one budget."},{"startTime":2598.778,"endTime":2601.488,"body":"We don't really know what we want,"},{"startTime":2598.778,"endTime":2601.488,"body":"but we'll tell you whatever you've"},{"startTime":2601.508,"endTime":2602.968,"body":"got is not it when you have it."},{"startTime":2603.058,"endTime":2603.258,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2603.558,"endTime":2605.258,"body":"That's a huge shift for most companies."},{"startTime":2605.458,"endTime":2608.818,"body":"They can't make that shift quickly, so"},{"startTime":2605.458,"endTime":2608.818,"body":"what can you actually do in practice?"},{"startTime":2608.848,"endTime":2612.308,"body":"Oh, I mean, I will give you something"},{"startTime":2608.848,"endTime":2612.308,"body":"that's been successful for me."},{"startTime":2612.768,"endTime":2614.468,"body":"You set up a strategy check in."},{"startTime":2614.768,"endTime":2615.808,"body":"You can call it whatever you want."},{"startTime":2615.878,"endTime":2617.978,"body":"Call it a status meeting"},{"startTime":2615.878,"endTime":2617.978,"body":"if that's your culture."},{"startTime":2618.018,"endTime":2618.298,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2618.338,"endTime":2620.328,"body":"These are the bets that"},{"startTime":2618.338,"endTime":2620.328,"body":"we're currently engaged in."},{"startTime":2620.518,"endTime":2621.828,"body":"These are the evidence I have."},{"startTime":2622.178,"endTime":2624.638,"body":"First of all, if you're a product"},{"startTime":2622.178,"endTime":2624.638,"body":"manager on the development team, you"},{"startTime":2624.638,"endTime":2627.278,"body":"should definitely bring your team"},{"startTime":2624.638,"endTime":2627.278,"body":"with you, because if you're going"},{"startTime":2627.278,"endTime":2629.978,"body":"to get raked out of the coals, it"},{"startTime":2627.278,"endTime":2629.978,"body":"shouldn't just be you by yourself."},{"startTime":2630.338,"endTime":2631.888,"body":"It should be you and your whole team."},{"startTime":2631.898,"endTime":2633.478,"body":"You're all contributing together, okay?"},{"startTime":2633.778,"endTime":2636.228,"body":"You should go in front of"},{"startTime":2633.778,"endTime":2636.228,"body":"whoever this strategy board is."},{"startTime":2636.228,"endTime":2639.598,"body":"Your strategy board definitely should"},{"startTime":2636.228,"endTime":2639.598,"body":"be Whoever you report to, whether"},{"startTime":2639.598,"endTime":2642.588,"body":"it's a VP, C level executive, I don't"},{"startTime":2639.598,"endTime":2642.588,"body":"know the size of your organization,"},{"startTime":2642.998,"endTime":2646.478,"body":"some rep from finance, Because"},{"startTime":2642.998,"endTime":2646.478,"body":"the finance numbers should be tied"},{"startTime":2646.478,"endTime":2649.208,"body":"directly to the strategy execution."},{"startTime":2649.508,"endTime":2651.028,"body":"They should be inseparable."},{"startTime":2651.208,"endTime":2654.948,"body":"We're putting a certain amount of"},{"startTime":2651.208,"endTime":2654.948,"body":"dollars behind these bets, right?"},{"startTime":2654.998,"endTime":2658.118,"body":"maybe the finance person knows what"},{"startTime":2654.998,"endTime":2658.118,"body":"dollars we're putting behind in the"},{"startTime":2658.118,"endTime":2661.258,"body":"cycle, but only the product manager"},{"startTime":2658.118,"endTime":2661.258,"body":"knows what bets we're engaged in."},{"startTime":2661.458,"endTime":2663.168,"body":"So you can break the money down."},{"startTime":2663.548,"endTime":2667.678,"body":"Yeah, on the best that you're engaged"},{"startTime":2663.548,"endTime":2667.678,"body":"in and the executives will be there"},{"startTime":2667.848,"endTime":2671.068,"body":"to just double check the product"},{"startTime":2667.848,"endTime":2671.068,"body":"sense of the product manager , and"},{"startTime":2671.068,"endTime":2674.998,"body":"to look at the statistics within"},{"startTime":2671.068,"endTime":2674.998,"body":"with a kind of like a neutral."},{"startTime":2675.438,"endTime":2679.318,"body":"Viewpoint to say like, these are"},{"startTime":2675.438,"endTime":2679.318,"body":"the stats that you're presenting me"},{"startTime":2679.618,"endTime":2681.388,"body":"and I don't think they look right."},{"startTime":2681.558,"endTime":2684.208,"body":"Maybe you want to look at"},{"startTime":2681.558,"endTime":2684.208,"body":"this X, Y, Z, or whatever."},{"startTime":2684.468,"endTime":2687.438,"body":"Maybe they give you some of the"},{"startTime":2684.468,"endTime":2687.438,"body":"details, but again, we're assuming"},{"startTime":2687.438,"endTime":2688.668,"body":"a lot in this conversation."},{"startTime":2688.668,"endTime":2692.968,"body":"We're assuming that, you're in a"},{"startTime":2688.668,"endTime":2692.968,"body":"generative style organization, not"},{"startTime":2692.968,"endTime":2694.778,"body":"a pathological style organization."},{"startTime":2694.818,"endTime":2697.948,"body":"We're not, blame games are"},{"startTime":2694.818,"endTime":2697.948,"body":"not the order of the day here."},{"startTime":2698.118,"endTime":2700.198,"body":"We're all trying to advance."},{"startTime":2700.598,"endTime":2704.788,"body":"The customers value, We're all"},{"startTime":2700.598,"endTime":2704.788,"body":"trying to do the best that we"},{"startTime":2704.788,"endTime":2705.908,"body":"can with the tools that we have."},{"startTime":2706.038,"endTime":2708.148,"body":"so that, I completely agree."},{"startTime":2708.168,"endTime":2710.608,"body":"Anybody that might be listening to this"},{"startTime":2708.168,"endTime":2710.608,"body":"has said like, well, Brian, that doesn't"},{"startTime":2710.638,"endTime":2713.988,"body":"work in my organization because everyone's"},{"startTime":2710.638,"endTime":2713.988,"body":"trying to stab each other in the back."},{"startTime":2714.288,"endTime":2715.048,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2715.048,"endTime":2715.348,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2715.448,"endTime":2716.038,"body":"I'm with you."},{"startTime":2716.038,"endTime":2716.518,"body":"Good luck."},{"startTime":2716.698,"endTime":2717.758,"body":"Keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":2717.758,"endTime":2718.008,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2718.028,"endTime":2718.658,"body":"Good luck."},{"startTime":2718.958,"endTime":2721.458,"body":"But also like you have to"},{"startTime":2718.958,"endTime":2721.458,"body":"find a way to get management."},{"startTime":2721.958,"endTime":2725.458,"body":"Invested in the, these are"},{"startTime":2721.958,"endTime":2725.458,"body":"the bets we're trying to make."},{"startTime":2725.758,"endTime":2727.908,"body":"This is the evidence that"},{"startTime":2725.758,"endTime":2727.908,"body":"we've seen from the bets."},{"startTime":2728.368,"endTime":2730.018,"body":"And this is the next thing we're trying."},{"startTime":2730.318,"endTime":2732.768,"body":"And just, and get their opinion, right?"},{"startTime":2732.768,"endTime":2735.558,"body":"Because again, high power, low interest."},{"startTime":2735.818,"endTime":2736.888,"body":"Arguing Agile 201."},{"startTime":2736.888,"endTime":2737.828,"body":"Get them involved."},{"startTime":2738.128,"endTime":2741.028,"body":"And if you really are trying"},{"startTime":2738.128,"endTime":2741.028,"body":"to get them involved, trying to"},{"startTime":2741.028,"endTime":2744.228,"body":"include their opinions, I mean,"},{"startTime":2741.028,"endTime":2744.228,"body":"they'll be trying to help you with"},{"startTime":2744.268,"endTime":2746.468,"body":"everything that they can contribute."},{"startTime":2746.768,"endTime":2749.548,"body":"Otherwise, like they're, the typical,"},{"startTime":2746.768,"endTime":2749.548,"body":"like Gary from sales they're just"},{"startTime":2749.548,"endTime":2752.998,"body":"trying to be like, I'm just trying to"},{"startTime":2749.548,"endTime":2752.998,"body":"get paid for my bonus or whatever yeah,"},{"startTime":2752.998,"endTime":2756.238,"body":"but there's a way you can engage these"},{"startTime":2752.998,"endTime":2756.238,"body":"people to say like, listen, We need"},{"startTime":2756.238,"endTime":2758.208,"body":"to try these things against the market"},{"startTime":2758.508,"endTime":2761.898,"body":"with like new features or whatever, that's"},{"startTime":2758.508,"endTime":2761.898,"body":"one thing, but also like trying different"},{"startTime":2761.908,"endTime":2764.548,"body":"ways to sell products against the market."},{"startTime":2764.758,"endTime":2768.468,"body":"We don't talk about that enough of"},{"startTime":2764.758,"endTime":2768.468,"body":"like, maybe customers want to buy"},{"startTime":2768.498,"endTime":2770.578,"body":"things in this kind of package."},{"startTime":2770.768,"endTime":2774.518,"body":"Let's test that, go out to your"},{"startTime":2770.768,"endTime":2774.518,"body":"contacts, let me know what they say."},{"startTime":2774.858,"endTime":2779.458,"body":"You know, there's a lot, there's a lot in"},{"startTime":2774.858,"endTime":2779.458,"body":"this category, but again, like this is why"},{"startTime":2779.508,"endTime":2780.818,"body":"I don't like this double diamond thing."},{"startTime":2780.818,"endTime":2782.128,"body":"Like, I just don't like it."},{"startTime":2782.188,"endTime":2783.508,"body":"it's not detailed enough."},{"startTime":2783.568,"endTime":2785.448,"body":"it's too simplistic."},{"startTime":2785.708,"endTime":2789.848,"body":"It makes it seem like, well, we can"},{"startTime":2785.708,"endTime":2789.848,"body":"just do this in the development team."},{"startTime":2789.848,"endTime":2792.028,"body":"We can just do this double diamond"},{"startTime":2789.848,"endTime":2792.028,"body":"thing in the development team."},{"startTime":2792.218,"endTime":2793.988,"body":"And we're like, we don't"},{"startTime":2792.218,"endTime":2793.988,"body":"need a bunch of support."},{"startTime":2793.988,"endTime":2796.588,"body":"No, like actually, no, you need a."},{"startTime":2796.888,"endTime":2800.818,"body":"You need a ton of support from your"},{"startTime":2796.888,"endTime":2800.818,"body":"leadership to make this thing happen"},{"startTime":2801.118,"endTime":2805.218,"body":"properly Otherwise when these two"},{"startTime":2801.118,"endTime":2805.218,"body":"diamonds connect in the middle And"},{"startTime":2805.218,"endTime":2808.458,"body":"you think that's a handoff and that's"},{"startTime":2805.218,"endTime":2808.458,"body":"that becomes okay in your organization"},{"startTime":2808.808,"endTime":2811.808,"body":"You've already failed with this"},{"startTime":2808.808,"endTime":2811.808,"body":"the whole purpose of this exercise."},{"startTime":2812.108,"endTime":2814.138,"body":"Yeah that this model"},{"startTime":2812.108,"endTime":2814.138,"body":"has weaknesses, right?"},{"startTime":2814.138,"endTime":2818.168,"body":"So we pointed out a few of those"},{"startTime":2814.138,"endTime":2818.168,"body":"but I do want to say if you're in a"},{"startTime":2818.168,"endTime":2821.488,"body":"culture where If this is completely"},{"startTime":2818.168,"endTime":2821.488,"body":"new to you and you're not sure how"},{"startTime":2821.488,"endTime":2823.378,"body":"to implement this, then do one thing."},{"startTime":2823.828,"endTime":2826.248,"body":"Try something small, right?"},{"startTime":2826.258,"endTime":2830.168,"body":"So we talked about budgets, let's say,"},{"startTime":2826.258,"endTime":2830.168,"body":"for example, you're not going to change"},{"startTime":2830.428,"endTime":2832.198,"body":"the way your organization does budgeting."},{"startTime":2832.258,"endTime":2836.138,"body":"If you're a product manager and"},{"startTime":2832.258,"endTime":2836.138,"body":"you're basically, handling a product"},{"startTime":2836.188,"endTime":2842.328,"body":"or a line of products, try changing"},{"startTime":2836.188,"endTime":2842.328,"body":"the outlook from budgeting a project"},{"startTime":2842.418,"endTime":2844.538,"body":"to budgeting for your product."},{"startTime":2844.838,"endTime":2847.088,"body":"Funding features, for example, right?"},{"startTime":2847.118,"endTime":2850.058,"body":"Then your mindset will be"},{"startTime":2847.118,"endTime":2850.058,"body":"different because it's no longer,"},{"startTime":2850.058,"endTime":2851.458,"body":"well, we have this budget."},{"startTime":2851.478,"endTime":2853.738,"body":"It's a big number typically"},{"startTime":2851.478,"endTime":2853.738,"body":"because it's an annual one."},{"startTime":2854.128,"endTime":2857.228,"body":"And all you're doing is basically"},{"startTime":2854.128,"endTime":2857.228,"body":"you're withering away at it"},{"startTime":2857.258,"endTime":2858.548,"body":"with a run rate of the team."},{"startTime":2858.858,"endTime":2859.758,"body":"That's not the idea."},{"startTime":2859.768,"endTime":2860.358,"body":"The idea is."},{"startTime":2860.658,"endTime":2863.968,"body":"From that, you have these features"},{"startTime":2860.658,"endTime":2863.968,"body":"you're trying to deliver by a certain"},{"startTime":2863.968,"endTime":2865.568,"body":"time for a certain audience, right?"},{"startTime":2865.768,"endTime":2868.458,"body":"How much money will go"},{"startTime":2865.768,"endTime":2868.458,"body":"towards building each feature?"},{"startTime":2868.668,"endTime":2870.368,"body":"Is there enough of an ROI for that?"},{"startTime":2870.538,"endTime":2875.488,"body":"Or sometimes there's not an ROI on a"},{"startTime":2870.538,"endTime":2875.488,"body":"given feature, but you're doing it because"},{"startTime":2875.518,"endTime":2880.148,"body":"you're basically the leader in your"},{"startTime":2875.518,"endTime":2880.148,"body":"competitive space with that feature and"},{"startTime":2880.148,"endTime":2881.868,"body":"you want to expose that to your customers."},{"startTime":2881.878,"endTime":2884.578,"body":"So they don't jump ship or"},{"startTime":2881.878,"endTime":2884.578,"body":"whatever the reasons might be."},{"startTime":2884.768,"endTime":2889.068,"body":"But think about it from that perspective"},{"startTime":2884.768,"endTime":2889.068,"body":"in Everyday life like when you speak with"},{"startTime":2889.088,"endTime":2892.888,"body":"people think about it that way even though"},{"startTime":2889.088,"endTime":2892.888,"body":"your budgets are already preordained"},{"startTime":2892.888,"endTime":2896.958,"body":"whatever else And as you're doing"},{"startTime":2892.888,"endTime":2896.958,"body":"that people will learn the way you're"},{"startTime":2896.988,"endTime":2901.358,"body":"thinking the way you're talking right"},{"startTime":2896.988,"endTime":2901.358,"body":"and and that I said It's a slow thing."},{"startTime":2901.358,"endTime":2905.298,"body":"It's not gonna happen overnight"},{"startTime":2901.358,"endTime":2905.298,"body":"But you the change will start with"},{"startTime":2905.298,"endTime":2906.768,"body":"you right if you want to start"},{"startTime":2907.068,"endTime":2911.358,"body":"We explored the diamond, we explored"},{"startTime":2907.068,"endTime":2911.358,"body":"a lot of my reservations with"},{"startTime":2911.368,"endTime":2914.198,"body":"using this style to communicate."},{"startTime":2914.288,"endTime":2916.728,"body":"I feel the basic product"},{"startTime":2914.288,"endTime":2916.728,"body":"discovery type of stuff."},{"startTime":2916.728,"endTime":2917.948,"body":"Like I would start with that."},{"startTime":2917.948,"endTime":2918.908,"body":"I would kind of ignore this."},{"startTime":2918.908,"endTime":2922.898,"body":"I feel the, the point you"},{"startTime":2918.908,"endTime":2922.898,"body":"should take away from this is."},{"startTime":2923.343,"endTime":2927.123,"body":"You should involve the whole team"},{"startTime":2923.343,"endTime":2927.123,"body":"in both discovery and delivery."},{"startTime":2927.513,"endTime":2930.643,"body":"A better version of this would"},{"startTime":2927.513,"endTime":2930.643,"body":"be one diamond that shows the"},{"startTime":2930.653,"endTime":2933.523,"body":"middle of the diamond where the"},{"startTime":2930.653,"endTime":2933.523,"body":"most chaotic stuff is happening."},{"startTime":2933.823,"endTime":2936.013,"body":"And that's, that should be normal."},{"startTime":2936.193,"endTime":2936.423,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":2936.603,"endTime":2938.633,"body":"But like, I just don't like"},{"startTime":2936.603,"endTime":2938.633,"body":"these two diamonds together."},{"startTime":2938.663,"endTime":2940.133,"body":"I, I I went through this whole podcast."},{"startTime":2940.153,"endTime":2941.443,"body":"I was hoping to have a revelation."},{"startTime":2941.663,"endTime":2944.603,"body":"I was hoping to find on"},{"startTime":2941.663,"endTime":2944.603,"body":"the whole wide internet."},{"startTime":2944.903,"endTime":2946.293,"body":"A better version?"},{"startTime":2946.593,"endTime":2949.723,"body":"These two diagrams put together"},{"startTime":2946.593,"endTime":2949.723,"body":"and and you haven't, we just"},{"startTime":2949.723,"endTime":2950.743,"body":"didn't, yeah, we didn't."},{"startTime":2950.893,"endTime":2953.773,"body":"I really like your, the diagram"},{"startTime":2950.893,"endTime":2953.773,"body":"that you came up with, with the,"},{"startTime":2953.773,"endTime":2955.483,"body":"with all the very chaotic middle."},{"startTime":2955.663,"endTime":2957.823,"body":"That was probably the"},{"startTime":2955.663,"endTime":2957.823,"body":"best diagram I've seen."},{"startTime":2957.943,"endTime":2960.973,"body":"Somebody came up with it, I just leveraged"},{"startTime":2957.943,"endTime":2960.973,"body":"it, but yeah, it's a single diamond."},{"startTime":2960.973,"endTime":2964.003,"body":"Well, I think there was an attribution"},{"startTime":2960.973,"endTime":2964.003,"body":"on the slide, so we'll figure that out"},{"startTime":2964.003,"endTime":2965.563,"body":"and, and posted the show notes, but Sure."},{"startTime":2965.568,"endTime":2969.388,"body":"Single diamond, which is"},{"startTime":2965.568,"endTime":2969.388,"body":"very chaotic in the middle."},{"startTime":2969.538,"endTime":2972.978,"body":"I think that was the best"},{"startTime":2969.538,"endTime":2972.978,"body":"interpretation of what's going on here."},{"startTime":2973.278,"endTime":2977.688,"body":"So first of all, I just want to go back"},{"startTime":2973.278,"endTime":2977.688,"body":"briefly to the statement You just made"},{"startTime":2977.698,"endTime":2982.688,"body":"here which is involve the whole team"},{"startTime":2977.698,"endTime":2982.688,"body":"Absolutely, right This is not a part of"},{"startTime":2982.688,"endTime":2986.138,"body":"a team or some other team like there's a"},{"startTime":2982.688,"endTime":2986.138,"body":"team and you gotta involve them all and"},{"startTime":2986.138,"endTime":2989.908,"body":"I will tell you just frankly like that"},{"startTime":2986.138,"endTime":2989.908,"body":"is my biggest problem with this diagram."},{"startTime":2989.908,"endTime":2995.553,"body":"This diagram seems To imply you can"},{"startTime":2989.908,"endTime":2995.553,"body":"separate between different teams or"},{"startTime":2995.553,"endTime":2998.593,"body":"individuals or like maybe the entire"},{"startTime":2995.553,"endTime":2998.593,"body":"development team is on the right and"},{"startTime":2998.593,"endTime":3001.013,"body":"it's a much broader audience and on"},{"startTime":2998.593,"endTime":3001.013,"body":"the left you just have the product"},{"startTime":3001.053,"endTime":3004.303,"body":"manager and the designer and the"},{"startTime":3001.053,"endTime":3004.303,"body":"middle what joins the two diagrams"},{"startTime":3004.493,"endTime":3008.493,"body":"is the tech lead and that's you just"},{"startTime":3004.493,"endTime":3008.493,"body":"write a document and throw it over the"},{"startTime":3008.493,"endTime":3010.583,"body":"fence  that doesn't work that it fails."},{"startTime":3010.713,"endTime":3011.453,"body":"It's terrible."},{"startTime":3011.793,"endTime":3012.333,"body":"Don't do it."},{"startTime":3012.413,"endTime":3012.823,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":3012.973,"endTime":3014.173,"body":"Yeah, I agree with all of that."},{"startTime":3014.193,"endTime":3016.313,"body":"It is a, it's a big failure, right?"},{"startTime":3016.333,"endTime":3019.443,"body":"Of this model to not kind of"},{"startTime":3016.333,"endTime":3019.443,"body":"Effectively illustrate that it's,"},{"startTime":3019.503,"endTime":3020.513,"body":"it should be the whole team."},{"startTime":3020.933,"endTime":3024.443,"body":"The other thing it doesn't effectively"},{"startTime":3020.933,"endTime":3024.443,"body":"illustrate for me is you should"},{"startTime":3024.443,"endTime":3025.813,"body":"involve the customer throughout."},{"startTime":3026.093,"endTime":3028.373,"body":"I don't care if it's"},{"startTime":3026.093,"endTime":3028.373,"body":"the messy middle, right?"},{"startTime":3028.793,"endTime":3031.083,"body":"It's only a messy middle"},{"startTime":3028.793,"endTime":3031.083,"body":"because you're not getting the"},{"startTime":3031.083,"endTime":3032.493,"body":"feedback from that customer."},{"startTime":3032.493,"endTime":3032.813,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":3032.943,"endTime":3034.493,"body":"So it doesn't show that."},{"startTime":3034.523,"endTime":3038.173,"body":"that's another reason I don't like the"},{"startTime":3034.523,"endTime":3038.173,"body":"customer is not shown anywhere on here."},{"startTime":3038.173,"endTime":3041.613,"body":"I mean, you can infer like, Oh,"},{"startTime":3038.173,"endTime":3041.613,"body":"well we're defining the problem."},{"startTime":3041.613,"endTime":3045.113,"body":"So we must be talking to customer,"},{"startTime":3041.613,"endTime":3045.113,"body":"but it's not, Again, if I'm showing"},{"startTime":3045.123,"endTime":3048.533,"body":"leadership, this double diamond,"},{"startTime":3045.123,"endTime":3048.533,"body":"if I'm training them or whatever,"},{"startTime":3048.533,"endTime":3050.413,"body":"the customer is implied on here."},{"startTime":3050.433,"endTime":3050.683,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3050.703,"endTime":3051.933,"body":"And I just, I don't like it."},{"startTime":3052.303,"endTime":3052.713,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":3052.733,"endTime":3054.153,"body":"Agreed with both of those things."},{"startTime":3054.263,"endTime":3054.583,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3054.583,"endTime":3058.093,"body":"Well, hopefully you've got something"},{"startTime":3054.583,"endTime":3058.093,"body":"out of the, the double diamond and that"},{"startTime":3058.093,"endTime":3059.423,"body":"should be a single diamond perhaps?"},{"startTime":3059.423,"endTime":3059.693,"body":"Dual track."},{"startTime":3059.733,"endTime":3060.183,"body":"Dual track."},{"startTime":3060.183,"endTime":3060.813,"body":"Dual track."},{"startTime":3060.813,"endTime":3061.493,"body":"With swords."},{"startTime":3061.573,"endTime":3062.063,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3062.483,"endTime":3062.743,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3062.753,"endTime":3063.993,"body":"D U E L. No."},{"startTime":3064.243,"endTime":3067.713,"body":"Let us know in the comments below and"},{"startTime":3064.243,"endTime":3067.713,"body":"don't forget to like and subscribe."}]}