{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.509,"body":"So today I want to talk"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.509,"body":"about an announcement that"},{"startTime":2.579,"endTime":4.049,"body":"has got everyone up in arms."},{"startTime":4.129,"endTime":8.02,"body":"That the PMI has bought"},{"startTime":4.129,"endTime":8.02,"body":"Slash merge with slash."},{"startTime":8.08,"endTime":8.51,"body":"Acquired."},{"startTime":8.82,"endTime":9.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9.27,"endTime":10.7,"body":"The Agile Alliance."},{"startTime":10.95,"endTime":13.61,"body":"And I wanted to get your take to see"},{"startTime":10.95,"endTime":13.61,"body":"if I could find somebody in the world"},{"startTime":13.61,"endTime":15.05,"body":"that cared because I didn't care."},{"startTime":18.786,"endTime":21.286,"body":"I saw the news and I"},{"startTime":18.786,"endTime":21.286,"body":"found it very interesting."},{"startTime":21.686,"endTime":22.746,"body":"So this quite topical."},{"startTime":22.746,"endTime":25.906,"body":"There's been a plethora of stuff"},{"startTime":22.746,"endTime":25.906,"body":"out there from people that are"},{"startTime":25.956,"endTime":28.366,"body":"basically saying yay or nay, right?"},{"startTime":28.761,"endTime":30.231,"body":"Oh, so we're gonna delve into it today."},{"startTime":30.321,"endTime":31.281,"body":"Oh, I hope you have an opinion."},{"startTime":31.311,"endTime":31.893,"body":"'cause I, I have some."},{"startTime":32.193,"endTime":34.203,"body":"Well thank goodness I, I hit our music."},{"startTime":34.503,"endTime":35.743,"body":"I don't know, that was music."},{"startTime":35.743,"endTime":35.744,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":35.868,"endTime":36.108,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":36.138,"endTime":39.198,"body":"So here, here's the article, Agile"},{"startTime":36.138,"endTime":39.198,"body":"Alliance joins Project Management"},{"startTime":39.238,"endTime":42.598,"body":"Institute PMI, January 3rd, 2025."},{"startTime":42.618,"endTime":43.528,"body":"So it wasn't that long ago."},{"startTime":43.528,"endTime":45.798,"body":"We don't really like ride"},{"startTime":43.528,"endTime":45.798,"body":"trends on the podcast that much."},{"startTime":45.828,"endTime":48.208,"body":"And , this is the launching"},{"startTime":45.828,"endTime":48.208,"body":"point for the Revisit episode."},{"startTime":48.208,"endTime":48.468,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":48.518,"endTime":52.978,"body":"I feel like I'm gonna represent on this"},{"startTime":48.518,"endTime":52.978,"body":"episode what most people are saying."},{"startTime":53.358,"endTime":54.938,"body":"Which is, I could care less."},{"startTime":55.288,"endTime":57.518,"body":"Most people are already"},{"startTime":55.288,"endTime":57.518,"body":"that Agile ship is sailed."},{"startTime":57.938,"endTime":61.828,"body":"I follow many development communities,"},{"startTime":57.938,"endTime":61.828,"body":"a lot of developers are anti Agile."},{"startTime":61.948,"endTime":62.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":62.588,"endTime":66.238,"body":"Because  it's been co opted by modern"},{"startTime":62.588,"endTime":66.238,"body":"day management as a tool of control."},{"startTime":66.238,"endTime":67.518,"body":"And they just use the Agile terms."},{"startTime":67.648,"endTime":67.878,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":67.888,"endTime":71.238,"body":"But still do all the PMI, project"},{"startTime":67.888,"endTime":71.238,"body":"management, old school type stuff."},{"startTime":71.238,"endTime":73.928,"body":"Just to stay with this for a"},{"startTime":71.238,"endTime":73.928,"body":"second, let's look at the article."},{"startTime":73.928,"endTime":75.388,"body":"Agile Alliance joins PMI."},{"startTime":75.638,"endTime":78.868,"body":"It says there's some fluff here about"},{"startTime":75.638,"endTime":78.868,"body":"the world leading authority and project"},{"startTime":78.868,"endTime":81.348,"body":"management and the people who've"},{"startTime":78.868,"endTime":81.348,"body":"taken your money for many, many years"},{"startTime":81.598,"endTime":84.448,"body":"to have you what like the old PMI."},{"startTime":84.693,"endTime":88.113,"body":"way back in the day when you had a"},{"startTime":84.693,"endTime":88.113,"body":"PMP certification I remember it was"},{"startTime":88.113,"endTime":92.583,"body":"a big deal that you had to actually"},{"startTime":88.113,"endTime":92.583,"body":"work and prove that you were on those"},{"startTime":92.603,"endTime":93.953,"body":"projects to keep your certification."},{"startTime":94.003,"endTime":95.463,"body":"Did that soften over time?"},{"startTime":95.613,"endTime":96.393,"body":"I don't believe so."},{"startTime":96.623,"endTime":97.923,"body":"I don't think it softened."},{"startTime":97.923,"endTime":101.903,"body":"I think what's happened is there's been a"},{"startTime":97.923,"endTime":101.903,"body":"lot of quote unquote, enablement companies"},{"startTime":101.903,"endTime":105.933,"body":"that sprung up over time that just say,"},{"startTime":101.903,"endTime":105.933,"body":"Hey, look, just attend our class and"},{"startTime":106.163,"endTime":107.313,"body":"we'll show you how to pass the test."},{"startTime":107.613,"endTime":111.733,"body":"You know, and as far as industry,"},{"startTime":107.613,"endTime":111.733,"body":"basically, exactly, and as far"},{"startTime":111.733,"endTime":116.933,"body":"as making sure that they had the"},{"startTime":111.733,"endTime":116.933,"body":"Prerequisite hours of experience before"},{"startTime":117.023,"endTime":119.053,"body":"applying you're taking a chances."},{"startTime":119.103,"endTime":120.943,"body":"Are you gonna get audited if you do?"},{"startTime":121.083,"endTime":123.923,"body":"But you know a lot of people just"},{"startTime":121.083,"endTime":123.923,"body":"take the chances and roll the dice I"},{"startTime":123.923,"endTime":127.043,"body":"always thought the pmi certifications"},{"startTime":123.923,"endTime":127.043,"body":"were like somewhat stringent about"},{"startTime":127.093,"endTime":129.403,"body":"auditing your stuff They used to be now."},{"startTime":129.443,"endTime":132.703,"body":"I think it's relaxed quite a bit"},{"startTime":129.443,"endTime":132.703,"body":"over the years to be honest I mean,"},{"startTime":132.703,"endTime":135.483,"body":"that's what i've seen at least talking"},{"startTime":132.703,"endTime":135.483,"body":"to people as well that are recently"},{"startTime":135.483,"endTime":139.153,"body":"minted ones I used to be part of the"},{"startTime":135.483,"endTime":139.153,"body":"mentorship group in the tampa bay pmi"},{"startTime":139.153,"endTime":143.333,"body":"chapter just to make sure that we can"},{"startTime":139.153,"endTime":143.333,"body":"enable people locally to be able to"},{"startTime":143.333,"endTime":145.973,"body":"become PMP certified or CAPM certified."},{"startTime":146.283,"endTime":150.463,"body":"And what I learned is the frequency of"},{"startTime":146.283,"endTime":150.463,"body":"audits have gone down for what it's worth."},{"startTime":150.533,"endTime":154.258,"body":"I'm sure that has something to do with"},{"startTime":150.533,"endTime":154.258,"body":"the cost of benefit of how much money"},{"startTime":154.258,"endTime":156.953,"body":"it takes to actually audit I don't"},{"startTime":154.258,"endTime":156.953,"body":"know, I'm not really trying to make a"},{"startTime":156.953,"endTime":159.453,"body":"statement cause again, I don't know if"},{"startTime":156.953,"endTime":159.453,"body":"I really care about any of this stuff."},{"startTime":159.873,"endTime":161.493,"body":"just to read some"},{"startTime":159.873,"endTime":161.493,"body":"snippets from the article."},{"startTime":161.643,"endTime":164.818,"body":"It's part of the process, the"},{"startTime":161.643,"endTime":164.818,"body":"managing director and  the board"},{"startTime":164.818,"endTime":166.768,"body":"members, I'm assuming the Elected"},{"startTime":164.818,"endTime":166.768,"body":"board members and whatnot."},{"startTime":167.098,"endTime":171.768,"body":"They all can keep their positions"},{"startTime":167.098,"endTime":171.768,"body":"and they join the PMI now so well,"},{"startTime":172.128,"endTime":173.628,"body":"yachts for everyone, basically."},{"startTime":173.818,"endTime":175.948,"body":"I don't think there's any yachts"},{"startTime":173.818,"endTime":175.948,"body":"even involved in any of this."},{"startTime":176.198,"endTime":179.588,"body":"So Oprah comes to my yacht for you,"},{"startTime":176.198,"endTime":179.588,"body":"you get a yacht and you get a yacht."},{"startTime":180.008,"endTime":183.738,"body":"No, seriously though, I personally think,"},{"startTime":180.008,"endTime":183.738,"body":"and again, this is just my point of view"},{"startTime":184.108,"endTime":187.818,"body":"PMI has been trying to become relevant"},{"startTime":184.108,"endTime":187.818,"body":"or stay relevant for quite some time."},{"startTime":188.198,"endTime":192.618,"body":"And this is just the latest thing"},{"startTime":188.198,"endTime":192.618,"body":"is like, they've seen membership."},{"startTime":192.868,"endTime":198.538,"body":"Not come on as strong at the same pace"},{"startTime":192.868,"endTime":198.538,"body":"as in the past or renewal, rates drop"},{"startTime":198.578,"endTime":201.778,"body":"substantially I know personally of"},{"startTime":198.578,"endTime":201.778,"body":"several people that have said i'm not"},{"startTime":201.778,"endTime":205.498,"body":"going to pay them anymore So that I think"},{"startTime":201.778,"endTime":205.498,"body":"this kind of makes sense when you think"},{"startTime":205.508,"endTime":208.748,"body":"about The easy way into the agile space."},{"startTime":208.748,"endTime":212.448,"body":"I know they've came they came up with"},{"startTime":208.748,"endTime":212.448,"body":"their own certs as well into agile, but"},{"startTime":212.448,"endTime":216.398,"body":"this is like The Agile Alliance or Scrum"},{"startTime":212.448,"endTime":216.398,"body":"Alliance are the only two, or Scrum."},{"startTime":216.398,"endTime":217.528,"body":"org too, I guess, right?"},{"startTime":217.778,"endTime":224.368,"body":"But the other two are legit bodies"},{"startTime":217.778,"endTime":224.368,"body":"that certify people and have a bunch"},{"startTime":224.368,"endTime":227.528,"body":"of experts contributing to that, right?"},{"startTime":227.528,"endTime":231.973,"body":"So the Agile Alliance, for me,"},{"startTime":227.528,"endTime":231.973,"body":"really is all about, You go to them"},{"startTime":231.993,"endTime":235.743,"body":"to see what events they're putting"},{"startTime":231.993,"endTime":235.743,"body":"on, where those events are, and"},{"startTime":235.743,"endTime":237.203,"body":"that's pretty much the end of it."},{"startTime":237.533,"endTime":240.663,"body":"So, I did a bit of poking around,"},{"startTime":237.533,"endTime":240.663,"body":"we need over on the other side of"},{"startTime":240.663,"endTime":243.703,"body":"episode 200, We need to make a slight"},{"startTime":240.663,"endTime":243.703,"body":"adjustment to the working agreement"},{"startTime":243.753,"endTime":247.003,"body":"which we're doing on camera without"},{"startTime":243.753,"endTime":247.003,"body":"talking about it for the first time."},{"startTime":247.193,"endTime":251.813,"body":"I feel the working agreement needs to"},{"startTime":247.193,"endTime":251.813,"body":"be like, the company names organizations"},{"startTime":251.903,"endTime":256.293,"body":"need to be fair, like fair choice for"},{"startTime":251.903,"endTime":256.293,"body":"naming and shaming  on the podcast."},{"startTime":256.463,"endTime":259.983,"body":"Whereas people, individual people,"},{"startTime":256.463,"endTime":259.983,"body":"I am not going to use the podcast"},{"startTime":259.983,"endTime":260.933,"body":"as a banner for attacking people."},{"startTime":260.933,"endTime":262.113,"body":"No, no, that's not what we're here for."},{"startTime":262.153,"endTime":265.863,"body":"I don't mind saying that like all the"},{"startTime":262.153,"endTime":265.863,"body":"people in here like there's a lot of"},{"startTime":266.053,"endTime":269.213,"body":"people that are on their board That"},{"startTime":266.053,"endTime":269.213,"body":"are trainers that basically make their"},{"startTime":269.213,"endTime":273.183,"body":"money off certifications Now those"},{"startTime":269.213,"endTime":273.183,"body":"people are moving over to pmi which"},{"startTime":273.183,"endTime":276.593,"body":"i'm sure that at some point when they"},{"startTime":273.183,"endTime":276.593,"body":"move over to pmi whatever pmi is doing"},{"startTime":276.593,"endTime":279.703,"body":"with certifications It just makes"},{"startTime":276.593,"endTime":279.703,"body":"sense that like now I can train over"},{"startTime":279.703,"endTime":282.053,"body":"here on the scrum side Of the house."},{"startTime":282.073,"endTime":286.793,"body":"And now I can train on the PMI side of"},{"startTime":282.073,"endTime":286.793,"body":"the house and somewhere those two revenue"},{"startTime":286.793,"endTime":290.313,"body":"streams will connect to make a larger"},{"startTime":286.793,"endTime":290.313,"body":"revenue stream for all these people"},{"startTime":290.313,"endTime":291.393,"body":"that would not be impacted by this."},{"startTime":291.393,"endTime":295.283,"body":"But taking that simple view aside,"},{"startTime":291.393,"endTime":295.283,"body":"I want to read some sentences from"},{"startTime":295.283,"endTime":296.303,"body":"this release announcement here."},{"startTime":296.303,"endTime":301.133,"body":"this little marketing thing, it says"},{"startTime":296.303,"endTime":301.133,"body":"modern project delivery demands fluency"},{"startTime":301.153,"endTime":305.233,"body":"across a continuum of delivery practices,"},{"startTime":301.153,"endTime":305.233,"body":"enabling professionals to choose"},{"startTime":305.233,"endTime":307.403,"body":"the right approach for each project."},{"startTime":307.773,"endTime":310.143,"body":"Successful delivery requires a"},{"startTime":307.773,"endTime":310.143,"body":"combination of skills and knowledge"},{"startTime":310.383,"endTime":312.343,"body":"tailored to specific contexts."},{"startTime":312.573,"endTime":313.703,"body":"So that's what Agile is."},{"startTime":313.713,"endTime":314.773,"body":"It's a delivery."},{"startTime":315.023,"endTime":318.763,"body":"Practice, which right there, that"},{"startTime":315.023,"endTime":318.763,"body":"sentence, I fundamentally disagree with"},{"startTime":318.773,"endTime":323.683,"body":"that sentence, but also like all the"},{"startTime":318.773,"endTime":323.683,"body":"people attacking agile, like this, I feel"},{"startTime":323.683,"endTime":325.043,"body":"we have a, there's a fork in the road now."},{"startTime":325.293,"endTime":330.573,"body":"Do I want to attack agile for being"},{"startTime":325.293,"endTime":330.573,"body":"like just a cash grab on delivery"},{"startTime":330.593,"endTime":334.963,"body":"practices  or do I believe in it as like"},{"startTime":330.593,"endTime":334.963,"body":"a fundamental mindset that you should"},{"startTime":334.973,"endTime":337.183,"body":"be running your business off of, right?"},{"startTime":337.433,"endTime":338.683,"body":"That fork in the road."},{"startTime":339.128,"endTime":342.258,"body":"Is going to basically, that's what we're"},{"startTime":339.128,"endTime":342.258,"body":"going to talk about this whole podcast."},{"startTime":342.288,"endTime":347.238,"body":"Cause I want to talk about, we had"},{"startTime":342.288,"endTime":347.238,"body":"already planned to talk about why"},{"startTime":347.258,"endTime":351.708,"body":"developers are so negative on agile"},{"startTime":347.258,"endTime":351.708,"body":"and it's difficult to talk about why"},{"startTime":351.708,"endTime":355.848,"body":"developers are so negative on agile"},{"startTime":351.708,"endTime":355.848,"body":"without including scrum because most"},{"startTime":355.918,"endTime":361.398,"body":"developers they just have bad experiences,"},{"startTime":355.918,"endTime":361.398,"body":"all across the board with the quote."},{"startTime":361.648,"endTime":364.438,"body":"Implementation of these"},{"startTime":361.648,"endTime":364.438,"body":"delivery practices."},{"startTime":364.688,"endTime":369.068,"body":"But none of that corresponds to any of"},{"startTime":364.688,"endTime":369.068,"body":"the principles of the agile manifesto."},{"startTime":369.318,"endTime":374.818,"body":"And if you're going to say like in"},{"startTime":369.318,"endTime":374.818,"body":"the agile alliances website, it says"},{"startTime":374.818,"endTime":378.618,"body":"like, Oh, we're, we're an organization"},{"startTime":374.818,"endTime":378.618,"body":"that cropped up because we wanted"},{"startTime":378.618,"endTime":380.458,"body":"to promote the agile principles."},{"startTime":380.708,"endTime":387.518,"body":"So how does merging with the PMI, the"},{"startTime":380.708,"endTime":387.518,"body":"vision, the strategy is not clear to me."},{"startTime":387.798,"endTime":390.118,"body":"Of how that enables, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":390.118,"endTime":392.448,"body":"Like I feel that should have been,"},{"startTime":390.118,"endTime":392.448,"body":"they should've spent a lot of time"},{"startTime":392.778,"endTime":395.688,"body":"crafting this release announcement"},{"startTime":392.778,"endTime":395.688,"body":"to talk about how emerging with PMI"},{"startTime":395.908,"endTime":401.248,"body":"can enable a strategy of bringing"},{"startTime":395.908,"endTime":401.248,"body":"better agile to a broader audience."},{"startTime":401.498,"endTime":402.418,"body":"That's not what I read here."},{"startTime":402.418,"endTime":406.438,"body":"What I read here, I read as a"},{"startTime":402.418,"endTime":406.438,"body":"product manager who says, okay,"},{"startTime":406.438,"endTime":408.288,"body":"the market has been re segmented."},{"startTime":408.538,"endTime":412.538,"body":"Where Agile is taking market share"},{"startTime":408.538,"endTime":412.538,"body":"away from selling PMI widgets."},{"startTime":412.788,"endTime":417.728,"body":"So now we're gonna buy the top"},{"startTime":412.788,"endTime":417.728,"body":"organization that we can buy"},{"startTime":417.968,"endTime":420.448,"body":"promoting Agile stuff to say,"},{"startTime":417.968,"endTime":420.448,"body":"oh we were Agile all along."},{"startTime":420.498,"endTime":421.688,"body":"These people were wrong the whole time."},{"startTime":421.768,"endTime":423.538,"body":"I think the point you make is valid."},{"startTime":423.588,"endTime":428.888,"body":"I think part of that is also The PMI"},{"startTime":423.588,"endTime":428.888,"body":"really was late to the party when it comes"},{"startTime":428.888,"endTime":432.168,"body":"to adopting the agile ways of working."},{"startTime":432.608,"endTime":435.758,"body":"They were still talking about their"},{"startTime":432.608,"endTime":435.758,"body":"eight, nine or ten, whatever it"},{"startTime":435.758,"endTime":439.928,"body":"is nowadays, subsidiary plans and"},{"startTime":435.758,"endTime":439.928,"body":"project planning, project management."},{"startTime":439.978,"endTime":443.478,"body":"So they were late to the party,"},{"startTime":439.978,"endTime":443.478,"body":"but by doing this, they can"},{"startTime":443.478,"endTime":445.328,"body":"now say, We're also agile."},{"startTime":445.338,"endTime":448.168,"body":"And the other side of the equation"},{"startTime":445.338,"endTime":448.168,"body":"that you started off the conversation"},{"startTime":448.168,"endTime":452.278,"body":"with, those trainers that are Agile"},{"startTime":448.168,"endTime":452.278,"body":"Alliance trainers, or they were before"},{"startTime":452.278,"endTime":457.418,"body":"the 3rd of January could now say, I can"},{"startTime":452.278,"endTime":457.418,"body":"certify you and you'd be PMI certified."},{"startTime":457.428,"endTime":459.658,"body":"And it's exactly the same"},{"startTime":457.428,"endTime":459.658,"body":"cert that you were getting"},{"startTime":459.798,"endTime":461.928,"body":"before, but it's yes, exactly."},{"startTime":461.938,"endTime":465.398,"body":"So there's this sense of there's"},{"startTime":461.938,"endTime":465.398,"body":"some legitimacy here now, right?"},{"startTime":465.398,"endTime":467.838,"body":"Suddenly cause PMI's name is on it."},{"startTime":468.088,"endTime":473.118,"body":"Honestly, there's been a saturation of"},{"startTime":468.088,"endTime":473.118,"body":"training providers to be generous, right?"},{"startTime":473.408,"endTime":476.618,"body":"People that can say I have a class"},{"startTime":473.408,"endTime":476.618,"body":"you should attend because you'll get"},{"startTime":476.618,"endTime":479.638,"body":"certified and it'll be good for you"},{"startTime":476.618,"endTime":479.638,"body":"There's been a lot of people that can"},{"startTime":479.638,"endTime":484.658,"body":"do that lately not just in america's"},{"startTime":479.638,"endTime":484.658,"body":"but also globally what happened and I"},{"startTime":484.658,"endTime":486.908,"body":"think covid helped this along as well is"},{"startTime":487.313,"endTime":492.003,"body":"a tremendous drop in the cost of"},{"startTime":487.313,"endTime":492.003,"body":"taking certification classes and"},{"startTime":492.003,"endTime":495.803,"body":"exams where you could get, for pennies"},{"startTime":492.003,"endTime":495.803,"body":"on a dollar, you could get the same"},{"startTime":495.943,"endTime":499.943,"body":"certification from an overseas R. E."},{"startTime":495.943,"endTime":499.943,"body":"P., Registered Education Provider."},{"startTime":500.403,"endTime":503.893,"body":"So because of the competition,"},{"startTime":500.403,"endTime":503.893,"body":", the trainers are struggling."},{"startTime":503.983,"endTime":507.923,"body":"They have been for a bit to try and"},{"startTime":503.983,"endTime":507.923,"body":"stay relevant, try and make sure that"},{"startTime":507.933,"endTime":510.083,"body":"they can survive let alone thrive."},{"startTime":510.133,"endTime":510.463,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":510.573,"endTime":514.963,"body":"And I personally believe that this is"},{"startTime":510.573,"endTime":514.963,"body":"why the Azure network was bored because"},{"startTime":514.963,"endTime":517.183,"body":"they, these trainers are, what can we do?"},{"startTime":517.343,"endTime":521.603,"body":"let's just unite and create a platform"},{"startTime":517.343,"endTime":521.603,"body":"where we can do a freemium version."},{"startTime":522.013,"endTime":523.663,"body":"People can get something for free."},{"startTime":523.783,"endTime":526.853,"body":". To entice them into joining, and"},{"startTime":523.783,"endTime":526.853,"body":"we'll make it easy for them to join."},{"startTime":526.853,"endTime":527.993,"body":"It's a dollar a day only."},{"startTime":528.023,"endTime":528.323,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":528.728,"endTime":530.318,"body":"Less than the cost of a latte."},{"startTime":530.408,"endTime":531.668,"body":"No, too expensive for me."},{"startTime":531.898,"endTime":532.178,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":532.258,"endTime":534.478,"body":"if it was like 50 bucks a"},{"startTime":532.258,"endTime":534.478,"body":"year, I throw my money on it."},{"startTime":534.568,"endTime":538.988,"body":"And again, there are things that they"},{"startTime":534.568,"endTime":538.988,"body":"could be providing to me as a product"},{"startTime":538.988,"endTime":543.758,"body":"manager for my fee that I paid to the"},{"startTime":538.988,"endTime":543.758,"body":"network tools and whatnot, that actually"},{"startTime":543.758,"endTime":547.118,"body":"would be very useful that we talked"},{"startTime":543.758,"endTime":547.118,"body":"about on the podcast all the time."},{"startTime":547.178,"endTime":549.958,"body":"we talked about with Alex the"},{"startTime":547.178,"endTime":549.958,"body":"tools that serve as a community"},{"startTime":549.958,"endTime":551.378,"body":"now, just don't do that."},{"startTime":551.388,"endTime":554.508,"body":"We like all the stuff in between"},{"startTime":551.388,"endTime":554.508,"body":"teams, all the stuff at a strategy"},{"startTime":554.508,"endTime":556.028,"body":"level, like none of the tools do that."},{"startTime":556.198,"endTime":559.118,"body":"They could have built, I mean,"},{"startTime":556.198,"endTime":559.118,"body":"there's enough software development"},{"startTime":559.168,"endTime":561.248,"body":"professionals that do CST."},{"startTime":561.248,"endTime":565.478,"body":"I'm not gonna, I come across flippant"},{"startTime":561.248,"endTime":565.478,"body":"with the CSTs, but there are a lot"},{"startTime":565.508,"endTime":569.988,"body":"of experts with deep knowledge in"},{"startTime":565.508,"endTime":569.988,"body":"that network that they could build a"},{"startTime":569.988,"endTime":573.168,"body":"tool like this, just with the money"},{"startTime":569.988,"endTime":573.168,"body":"that falls between the cracks between"},{"startTime":573.168,"endTime":574.428,"body":"them and their own teams and whatnot."},{"startTime":574.883,"endTime":577.973,"body":"They can build a really great tool to do"},{"startTime":574.883,"endTime":577.973,"body":"this with integration, with Jira, with"},{"startTime":577.973,"endTime":579.443,"body":"integrations, with whatever tool you use."},{"startTime":579.483,"endTime":580.143,"body":"Did I say Jira?"},{"startTime":580.693,"endTime":581.323,"body":"Sorry, I didn't know."},{"startTime":581.413,"endTime":582.283,"body":"I didn't know if I said it."},{"startTime":582.653,"endTime":584.113,"body":"But that's not the route here."},{"startTime":584.113,"endTime":589.803,"body":"When you have a market that's saturated"},{"startTime":584.113,"endTime":589.803,"body":"and has pressure on it from the industry"},{"startTime":589.803,"endTime":593.683,"body":"at large where people are dumping"},{"startTime":589.803,"endTime":593.683,"body":"on agile to begin with, as has been"},{"startTime":593.683,"endTime":597.263,"body":"the case lately, the trainers have a"},{"startTime":593.683,"endTime":597.263,"body":"hard job trying to sell themselves."},{"startTime":597.583,"endTime":602.323,"body":"And so collectively joining something"},{"startTime":597.583,"endTime":602.323,"body":"like a union that you see From the"},{"startTime":602.323,"endTime":604.283,"body":"perspective of legitimizing it."},{"startTime":604.283,"endTime":605.963,"body":"Everybody knows what PMI is."},{"startTime":605.993,"endTime":606.923,"body":"You know, what they bring."},{"startTime":607.343,"endTime":611.273,"body":"And then the other side of it is the"},{"startTime":607.343,"endTime":611.273,"body":"actual network, but at the same time is"},{"startTime":611.273,"endTime":612.683,"body":"saying, well, it's only a dollar a day."},{"startTime":612.693,"endTime":615.863,"body":"Look what you get for it, is"},{"startTime":612.693,"endTime":615.863,"body":"what I'm seeing being advertised."},{"startTime":615.873,"endTime":619.523,"body":"You get access to number of CSTs, right?"},{"startTime":619.563,"endTime":623.593,"body":"So they can help you for"},{"startTime":619.563,"endTime":623.593,"body":"your own specific situations."},{"startTime":623.633,"endTime":625.743,"body":"You can ask them detailed questions."},{"startTime":625.993,"endTime":629.393,"body":"Dollar a day is a good price for"},{"startTime":625.993,"endTime":629.393,"body":"that, but I feel like they're"},{"startTime":629.393,"endTime":630.813,"body":"missing the boat a little bit here."},{"startTime":630.853,"endTime":635.463,"body":"And that is a lot of these trainers,"},{"startTime":630.853,"endTime":635.463,"body":"when you really dig deep, haven't really"},{"startTime":635.463,"endTime":640.223,"body":"worked in agile, like on a team, on"},{"startTime":635.463,"endTime":640.223,"body":"teams of teams, they've become trainers."},{"startTime":640.473,"endTime":644.273,"body":"And what they teach you is, again, I'm"},{"startTime":640.473,"endTime":644.273,"body":"going to get a lot of flack for this."},{"startTime":644.728,"endTime":649.758,"body":"They're gonna provide you with the book"},{"startTime":644.728,"endTime":649.758,"body":"knowledge is how you do things until"},{"startTime":649.938,"endTime":653.128,"body":"you go to the real world You know, wait,"},{"startTime":649.938,"endTime":653.128,"body":"wait, I can't apply that here because"},{"startTime":653.128,"endTime":654.628,"body":"it doesn't work in the real world."},{"startTime":654.738,"endTime":659.558,"body":"So what you just brought up I wrote some"},{"startTime":654.738,"endTime":659.558,"body":"notes of what I've heard from developers."},{"startTime":659.808,"endTime":662.248,"body":"And we sat down before the podcast,"},{"startTime":659.808,"endTime":662.248,"body":"we kind of arranged my notes and"},{"startTime":662.498,"endTime":665.718,"body":"we do arranging of like the order"},{"startTime":662.498,"endTime":665.718,"body":"in which we think it's important"},{"startTime":665.718,"endTime":666.538,"body":"to talk about things, right?"},{"startTime":666.578,"endTime":670.708,"body":"One of the things that you just brought"},{"startTime":666.578,"endTime":670.708,"body":"up, I have heard was this no true"},{"startTime":670.718,"endTime":674.798,"body":"Scotsman type of like Oh, you can do"},{"startTime":670.718,"endTime":674.798,"body":"scrum, but no one ever really does."},{"startTime":674.928,"endTime":677.668,"body":"Your implementation of scrum isn't"},{"startTime":674.928,"endTime":677.668,"body":"properly working or whatever."},{"startTime":677.668,"endTime":679.378,"body":"And then you're like, well,"},{"startTime":677.668,"endTime":679.378,"body":"you're not really doing scrum."},{"startTime":679.408,"endTime":683.168,"body":"So To a lot of developers, it just sounds"},{"startTime":679.408,"endTime":683.168,"body":"like the no true Scotsman argument where"},{"startTime":683.168,"endTime":687.048,"body":"you're like, no matter what you say, I get"},{"startTime":683.168,"endTime":687.048,"body":"to say, well, you haven't done that right."},{"startTime":687.058,"endTime":687.528,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":687.528,"endTime":691.398,"body":"Like I've done scrum by the book , and"},{"startTime":687.528,"endTime":691.398,"body":"at every workplace ever been, I tried"},{"startTime":691.398,"endTime":694.928,"body":"to move scrum back towards the way"},{"startTime":691.398,"endTime":694.928,"body":"it's written in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":694.928,"endTime":696.868,"body":"So there's no extra added anything."},{"startTime":697.258,"endTime":700.938,"body":"And I always get the teams back"},{"startTime":697.258,"endTime":700.938,"body":"to this place, but I've never"},{"startTime":701.098,"endTime":703.228,"body":"joined a team that was using scrum."},{"startTime":703.668,"endTime":707.628,"body":"The way that I finagle scrum to"},{"startTime":703.668,"endTime":707.628,"body":"become to be like, Nope, this"},{"startTime":707.638,"endTime":709.878,"body":"is we're doing it right out of"},{"startTime":707.638,"endTime":709.878,"body":"the book we don't skip things."},{"startTime":710.048,"endTime":712.298,"body":"And I mean, there's always productive"},{"startTime":710.048,"endTime":712.298,"body":"conversations that come out of it."},{"startTime":712.678,"endTime":715.738,"body":"We're going to talk about but that"},{"startTime":712.678,"endTime":715.738,"body":"particular category of most developers,"},{"startTime":715.768,"endTime":719.308,"body":"they've never worked with a product"},{"startTime":715.768,"endTime":719.308,"body":"manager that knows what they're doing"},{"startTime":719.528,"endTime":723.898,"body":"with a organization that supports"},{"startTime":719.528,"endTime":723.898,"body":"scrum with an organization that,"},{"startTime":723.908,"endTime":724.793,"body":"that understands what they're doing."},{"startTime":725.103,"endTime":727.243,"body":"Like stakeholders have to be at"},{"startTime":725.103,"endTime":727.243,"body":"the certain meetings that they"},{"startTime":727.243,"endTime":728.293,"body":"have to be at and stuff like that."},{"startTime":728.533,"endTime":732.363,"body":"And there's, there's so many kind of"},{"startTime":728.533,"endTime":732.363,"body":"do this or that, or do this and don't"},{"startTime":732.363,"endTime":736.233,"body":"do that type of things that there's so"},{"startTime":732.363,"endTime":736.233,"body":"many developers that just have never."},{"startTime":736.423,"endTime":736.903,"body":"Seen it."},{"startTime":737.153,"endTime":737.793,"body":"It works."},{"startTime":737.933,"endTime":738.533,"body":"Trust me."},{"startTime":738.783,"endTime":739.723,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":739.723,"endTime":743.583,"body":"I think a lot of times where I've, well,"},{"startTime":739.723,"endTime":743.583,"body":"certainly I can rely on my own experience"},{"startTime":743.593,"endTime":747.863,"body":"or what I've seen is a lot of developers"},{"startTime":743.593,"endTime":747.863,"body":"have heard of it, but also being part"},{"startTime":747.863,"endTime":753.053,"body":"of fragile agile a part of pseudo scrum"},{"startTime":747.863,"endTime":753.053,"body":"in the past, wherever they come from,"},{"startTime":753.123,"endTime":757.993,"body":"especially those developers that are"},{"startTime":753.123,"endTime":757.993,"body":"contractors you know, mainly from offshore"},{"startTime":757.993,"endTime":762.958,"body":"contracting vendors, what they've seen"},{"startTime":757.993,"endTime":762.958,"body":"from other companies Makes them cynical"},{"startTime":762.988,"endTime":765.978,"body":"and they say, well, I hear what you're"},{"startTime":762.988,"endTime":765.978,"body":"saying, but it never worked in my past."},{"startTime":766.338,"endTime":767.698,"body":"We tried, we try to do that."},{"startTime":767.948,"endTime":769.358,"body":"Did you really try to do that?"},{"startTime":769.728,"endTime":770.008,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":770.008,"endTime":773.118,"body":"So that's where I think I've"},{"startTime":770.008,"endTime":773.118,"body":"seen a lot of people just come"},{"startTime":773.118,"endTime":775.758,"body":"up with the guards up, right?"},{"startTime":775.758,"endTime":778.318,"body":"When you say we should be doing"},{"startTime":775.758,"endTime":778.318,"body":"this, we should be doing that."},{"startTime":778.378,"endTime":782.488,"body":"And there are symptoms you can see"},{"startTime":778.378,"endTime":782.488,"body":"that people will be Not vocal, not"},{"startTime":782.498,"endTime":785.198,"body":"contributing, just going along, right?"},{"startTime":785.248,"endTime":788.548,"body":"Because whatever you're saying"},{"startTime":785.248,"endTime":788.548,"body":"this, but I've never seen it work."},{"startTime":788.548,"endTime":789.638,"body":"We did a whole podcast."},{"startTime":789.648,"endTime":790.648,"body":"Agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":790.658,"endTime":793.578,"body":"Arguing Agile 83, Agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":793.848,"endTime":797.928,"body":"And I feel that  a lot of what we're"},{"startTime":793.848,"endTime":797.928,"body":"gonna talk about today is not this"},{"startTime":798.178,"endTime":801.828,"body":"no, it isn't that this is different"},{"startTime":798.178,"endTime":801.828,"body":"I mean, are you a real like we talked"},{"startTime":801.838,"endTime":804.128,"body":"a lot about management hang ups?"},{"startTime":804.168,"endTime":809.218,"body":"Yeah in 83 We talked about incentives"},{"startTime":804.168,"endTime":809.218,"body":"middle managers sabotaging things"},{"startTime":809.408,"endTime":812.818,"body":"business incentives and the way that"},{"startTime":809.408,"endTime":812.818,"body":"the business is organized kind of"},{"startTime":813.068,"endTime":817.768,"body":"torpedoing how things are Our setup of"},{"startTime":813.068,"endTime":817.768,"body":"organizational fear of failure that kind"},{"startTime":817.768,"endTime":819.348,"body":"of you know me ego is that kind of stuff?"},{"startTime":819.818,"endTime":822.473,"body":"But What we're going to talk"},{"startTime":819.818,"endTime":822.473,"body":"about today, like the hangups"},{"startTime":822.473,"endTime":823.603,"body":"that developers we'll use it."},{"startTime":823.843,"endTime":826.123,"body":"These are the arguing points"},{"startTime":823.843,"endTime":826.123,"body":", that developers will use."},{"startTime":826.123,"endTime":826.703,"body":"Frustrations."},{"startTime":826.703,"endTime":829.223,"body":"They have, we're not saying they're"},{"startTime":826.703,"endTime":829.223,"body":"doing this deliberately or anything"},{"startTime":829.223,"endTime":833.153,"body":"like that with malice of forethought,"},{"startTime":829.223,"endTime":833.153,"body":"That this is genuine, but at the"},{"startTime":833.153,"endTime":834.443,"body":"same time, they haven't said."},{"startTime":834.458,"endTime":837.908,"body":"I've never seen the environment"},{"startTime":834.458,"endTime":837.908,"body":"where it can actually work right if"},{"startTime":837.908,"endTime":840.568,"body":"they've been around a bit and they've"},{"startTime":837.908,"endTime":840.568,"body":"seen that and there are a couple"},{"startTime":840.568,"endTime":844.398,"body":"of developers I know in the Tampa"},{"startTime":840.568,"endTime":844.398,"body":"area that vocalize that themselves"},{"startTime":844.398,"endTime":846.028,"body":"and say, look, this works right."},{"startTime":846.058,"endTime":848.588,"body":"I didn't used to because we"},{"startTime":846.058,"endTime":848.588,"body":"never did it right to begin with."},{"startTime":848.838,"endTime":852.488,"body":"So yeah, this, this is a different nuance"},{"startTime":848.838,"endTime":852.488,"body":"on what we were talking about before."},{"startTime":852.528,"endTime":856.108,"body":"Also, one of the things not on our"},{"startTime":852.528,"endTime":856.108,"body":"list that I heard  they said most"},{"startTime":856.138,"endTime":859.198,"body":"people in the field now, They've,"},{"startTime":856.138,"endTime":859.198,"body":"they've never worked in waterfall."},{"startTime":859.208,"endTime":861.308,"body":"So when you say something waterfall,"},{"startTime":859.208,"endTime":861.308,"body":"or when you compare something"},{"startTime":861.308,"endTime":862.798,"body":"waterfall, it's meaningless to them."},{"startTime":862.798,"endTime":866.088,"body":"Cause they've never worked in an"},{"startTime":862.798,"endTime":866.088,"body":"organization with a project manager who"},{"startTime":866.128,"endTime":870.078,"body":"like gives you the work breakdown and"},{"startTime":866.128,"endTime":870.078,"body":"says, you have to complete this by this"},{"startTime":870.078,"endTime":871.658,"body":"time, . They've never worked in that."},{"startTime":871.708,"endTime":875.018,"body":"Everything's been relabeled with"},{"startTime":871.708,"endTime":875.018,"body":"agile terms their whole career."},{"startTime":875.268,"endTime":877.368,"body":"They don't know it's this"},{"startTime":875.268,"endTime":877.368,"body":"project management command"},{"startTime":877.368,"endTime":878.658,"body":"and control mindset, right?"},{"startTime":878.768,"endTime":880.318,"body":"Who's used new terminology."},{"startTime":880.318,"endTime":882.568,"body":"So all this is being assessed."},{"startTime":882.808,"endTime":885.788,"body":"All these failures are being"},{"startTime":882.808,"endTime":885.788,"body":"assessed against agile, right?"},{"startTime":885.898,"endTime":887.078,"body":"and really they're working in scrum."},{"startTime":887.088,"endTime":890.988,"body":"So really, they're assessing the failures"},{"startTime":887.088,"endTime":890.988,"body":"of scrum and saying, well, all Scrum"},{"startTime":890.988,"endTime":892.508,"body":"is Agile, but not all Agile is Scrum."},{"startTime":892.538,"endTime":896.428,"body":"So basically all the problems are"},{"startTime":892.538,"endTime":896.428,"body":"directed back to Scrum or Agile."},{"startTime":896.638,"endTime":897.738,"body":"No, that's absolutely true."},{"startTime":897.738,"endTime":899.548,"body":"some of the younger folks out there."},{"startTime":899.988,"endTime":904.648,"body":"They've never worked in Waterfall before,"},{"startTime":899.988,"endTime":904.648,"body":"but now they're working in Scrum labeled."},{"startTime":904.823,"endTime":908.273,"body":"But are they really working"},{"startTime":904.823,"endTime":908.273,"body":"in Scrum or is it simply agile"},{"startTime":908.523,"endTime":910.053,"body":"water Scrum or fall, basically."},{"startTime":910.063,"endTime":912.793,"body":"Let's talk about com complaint"},{"startTime":910.063,"endTime":912.793,"body":"number one's,  exhibit one."},{"startTime":912.883,"endTime":916.753,"body":"Yeah, let's talk about Exhibit"},{"startTime":912.883,"endTime":916.753,"body":"A. I need to relabel, how can I"},{"startTime":916.753,"endTime":918.523,"body":"relabel these to a quickly I can't."},{"startTime":918.613,"endTime":919.213,"body":"I can't, I can't."},{"startTime":920.233,"endTime":922.603,"body":"No, you can, I think you can go to the"},{"startTime":920.233,"endTime":922.603,"body":"bullets list and say Google Docs is gonna."},{"startTime":922.853,"endTime":925.863,"body":"I don't know what I"},{"startTime":922.853,"endTime":925.863,"body":"click control Z control Z"},{"startTime":926.223,"endTime":927.813,"body":"that'll be the first"},{"startTime":926.223,"endTime":927.813,"body":"thing that they'll say."},{"startTime":927.813,"endTime":931.023,"body":"They'll say, they'll say there's"},{"startTime":927.813,"endTime":931.023,"body":"scrum has got all these ceremonies"},{"startTime":931.063,"endTime":932.223,"body":"without, they'll say agile."},{"startTime":932.243,"endTime":933.653,"body":"Agile's got all these ceremonies."},{"startTime":933.653,"endTime":935.46,"body":"I got to, I got to go"},{"startTime":933.653,"endTime":935.46,"body":"to my daily standups."},{"startTime":935.46,"endTime":937.153,"body":"Why do I got to have a daily standup?"},{"startTime":937.403,"endTime":940.213,"body":"I got to do sprint plannings"},{"startTime":937.403,"endTime":940.213,"body":"that are, it's just my tech"},{"startTime":940.233,"endTime":941.533,"body":"lead telling me what to do."},{"startTime":941.543,"endTime":945.963,"body":"Anyway, I got to do retrospectives,"},{"startTime":941.543,"endTime":945.963,"body":"which is all us just sitting around and"},{"startTime":946.223,"endTime":949.923,"body":"writing up a bunch of lists of the same"},{"startTime":946.223,"endTime":949.923,"body":"things over and over again those are"},{"startTime":949.923,"endTime":951.563,"body":"not scrum problems or agile problems."},{"startTime":951.583,"endTime":953.353,"body":"Like those are just like"},{"startTime":951.583,"endTime":953.353,"body":"organizational problems."},{"startTime":953.353,"endTime":955.113,"body":"And you have to find a"},{"startTime":953.353,"endTime":955.113,"body":"better place to work."},{"startTime":955.363,"endTime":958.453,"body":"They will hear this, but they'll say"},{"startTime":955.363,"endTime":958.453,"body":"shops like Google don't do any of this."},{"startTime":958.753,"endTime":960.063,"body":"They don't do any sprint plannings."},{"startTime":960.073,"endTime":963.763,"body":"They just have small teams that are"},{"startTime":960.073,"endTime":963.763,"body":"self contained that have all the"},{"startTime":963.763,"endTime":967.403,"body":"right people, all senior people,"},{"startTime":963.763,"endTime":967.403,"body":"self contained talk directly to"},{"startTime":967.403,"endTime":969.523,"body":"customers and pitch their own projects."},{"startTime":969.723,"endTime":971.943,"body":"And they're the most successful"},{"startTime":969.723,"endTime":971.943,"body":"company in the world, Brian."},{"startTime":971.943,"endTime":973.353,"body":"So you don't know what"},{"startTime":971.943,"endTime":973.353,"body":"you're talking about."},{"startTime":973.603,"endTime":973.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":973.843,"endTime":976.913,"body":"I mean, look, I get that all"},{"startTime":973.843,"endTime":976.913,"body":"the time in my role, right?"},{"startTime":976.963,"endTime":979.703,"body":"because people will just say,"},{"startTime":976.963,"endTime":979.703,"body":"why do we need all this stuff?"},{"startTime":979.733,"endTime":980.613,"body":"It's too much overhead."},{"startTime":980.623,"endTime":981.313,"body":"Just leave me alone."},{"startTime":981.313,"endTime":982.523,"body":"I know what I have to do."},{"startTime":982.773,"endTime":984.033,"body":"You've shared the backlog with me."},{"startTime":984.033,"endTime":984.693,"body":"I'm just going to do."},{"startTime":984.813,"endTime":986.133,"body":"Pop off the top of that stack."},{"startTime":986.383,"endTime":987.423,"body":"I'm going to go to the basement."},{"startTime":987.433,"endTime":988.063,"body":"I'll work on it."},{"startTime":988.073,"endTime":989.553,"body":"Don't bother me with all these meetings."},{"startTime":989.963,"endTime":990.323,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":990.323,"endTime":992.673,"body":"But you're not learning what's needed."},{"startTime":992.683,"endTime":995.243,"body":"You're not learning how"},{"startTime":992.683,"endTime":995.243,"body":"the need is changing."},{"startTime":995.243,"endTime":996.303,"body":"You're not talking to customers."},{"startTime":996.763,"endTime":1000.183,"body":"So you've got people working on the"},{"startTime":996.763,"endTime":1000.183,"body":"same stuff under different guises."},{"startTime":1000.583,"endTime":1002.983,"body":"This idea of collaboration, right."},{"startTime":1003.093,"endTime":1008.843,"body":"And making sure that everyone owns"},{"startTime":1003.093,"endTime":1008.843,"body":"collectively the output outcome of a"},{"startTime":1008.853,"endTime":1013.203,"body":"sprint, that is something that some people"},{"startTime":1008.853,"endTime":1013.203,"body":"find difficult to accept, especially those"},{"startTime":1013.203,"endTime":1015.763,"body":"are those that are not like new people."},{"startTime":1015.773,"endTime":1019.403,"body":"these people are tech leads or"},{"startTime":1015.773,"endTime":1019.403,"body":"equivalent thereof developers that"},{"startTime":1019.403,"endTime":1021.283,"body":"have Been in the game for a while."},{"startTime":1021.533,"endTime":1022.883,"body":"We know what's needed here, right?"},{"startTime":1022.903,"endTime":1024.163,"body":"Let me go get this done."},{"startTime":1024.463,"endTime":1025.393,"body":"That's all I need to do."},{"startTime":1025.663,"endTime":1030.303,"body":"And when it comes to a review"},{"startTime":1025.663,"endTime":1030.303,"body":"or a demo we'll just throw"},{"startTime":1030.303,"endTime":1031.233,"body":"it over to the product owner."},{"startTime":1031.263,"endTime":1031.933,"body":"They can do that."},{"startTime":1032.183,"endTime":1034.343,"body":"I piss off customers when I open my mouth."},{"startTime":1034.593,"endTime":1035.793,"body":"It's like, yeah, okay."},{"startTime":1036.003,"endTime":1038.633,"body":"But you need to be the person"},{"startTime":1036.003,"endTime":1038.633,"body":"who talks to the customers."},{"startTime":1038.893,"endTime":1041.373,"body":"The customers need to be able"},{"startTime":1038.893,"endTime":1041.373,"body":"to ask you questions, right?"},{"startTime":1041.553,"endTime":1044.363,"body":"You need to get into the refinement"},{"startTime":1041.553,"endTime":1044.363,"body":"where, by the way, I have"},{"startTime":1044.363,"endTime":1046.203,"body":"customers in refinement, right?"},{"startTime":1046.223,"endTime":1049.513,"body":"A lot of times that doesn't happen, but I"},{"startTime":1046.223,"endTime":1049.513,"body":"do have that and they can ask questions."},{"startTime":1049.563,"endTime":1049.933,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1050.013,"endTime":1052.703,"body":"So it doesn't matter that they're not"},{"startTime":1050.013,"endTime":1052.703,"body":"using my products now, but at some"},{"startTime":1052.703,"endTime":1054.893,"body":"point there'll be in a sales pitch"},{"startTime":1052.703,"endTime":1054.893,"body":"and they'll hear about my products."},{"startTime":1054.923,"endTime":1058.233,"body":"Anyway I was at a customer visit one"},{"startTime":1054.923,"endTime":1058.233,"body":"time that I just went along just to"},{"startTime":1058.233,"endTime":1060.583,"body":"hang out, just to see, Hey, I'm Brian."},{"startTime":1060.593,"endTime":1062.563,"body":"I'm a product manager for"},{"startTime":1060.593,"endTime":1062.563,"body":"this thing or whatever."},{"startTime":1062.853,"endTime":1065.163,"body":"I'm not your product manager, but"},{"startTime":1062.853,"endTime":1065.163,"body":"you know, this is, I'm here with"},{"startTime":1065.163,"endTime":1066.823,"body":"your, we're peers is product manager."},{"startTime":1066.903,"endTime":1069.623,"body":"Product manager Bob, and the product"},{"startTime":1066.903,"endTime":1069.623,"body":"manager said, Oh, I can't go to lunch."},{"startTime":1069.623,"endTime":1070.323,"body":"I got to stay here."},{"startTime":1070.573,"endTime":1071.603,"body":"I'm like, why?"},{"startTime":1071.633,"endTime":1073.963,"body":"this is the only hour we have"},{"startTime":1071.633,"endTime":1073.963,"body":"free , get something to eat."},{"startTime":1073.963,"endTime":1075.143,"body":"You're going to be wiped out after lunch."},{"startTime":1075.393,"endTime":1076.123,"body":"And he's like, no, no, no."},{"startTime":1076.183,"endTime":1077.543,"body":"This is my refinement time."},{"startTime":1077.963,"endTime":1082.593,"body":"And if I don't make it to refinement,"},{"startTime":1077.963,"endTime":1082.593,"body":"then I can't trust them to have the"},{"startTime":1082.593,"endTime":1086.553,"body":"stories that I prioritize at the"},{"startTime":1082.593,"endTime":1086.553,"body":"top of the, yeah, I can't trust that"},{"startTime":1086.553,"endTime":1090.113,"body":"they will be able to, the refinement"},{"startTime":1086.553,"endTime":1090.113,"body":"done to have those stories ready."},{"startTime":1090.113,"endTime":1093.693,"body":"And if the stories are not ready by sprint"},{"startTime":1090.113,"endTime":1093.693,"body":"planning time, then either our sprint"},{"startTime":1093.703,"endTime":1096.663,"body":"planning is going to run super long or"},{"startTime":1093.703,"endTime":1096.663,"body":"I'll have to make more time for sprint"},{"startTime":1096.663,"endTime":1100.663,"body":"planning or we won't be able to basically"},{"startTime":1096.663,"endTime":1100.663,"body":"the work for the sprint won't be ready."},{"startTime":1100.993,"endTime":1104.743,"body":"If I don't make it this refinement to"},{"startTime":1100.993,"endTime":1104.743,"body":"help them, cause I'm the guardrails."},{"startTime":1104.743,"endTime":1106.403,"body":"It helps him stay on track."},{"startTime":1106.473,"endTime":1106.783,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1106.843,"endTime":1109.783,"body":"And when you say guardrails,"},{"startTime":1106.843,"endTime":1109.783,"body":"I'm hearing I'm the bottleneck."},{"startTime":1109.863,"endTime":1115.343,"body":"I said, I said, then your whole"},{"startTime":1109.863,"endTime":1115.343,"body":"team should be here at the customer."},{"startTime":1115.593,"endTime":1116.033,"body":"Then."},{"startTime":1116.203,"endTime":1116.883,"body":"Doing a gimba."},{"startTime":1116.953,"endTime":1119.533,"body":"Every time you sure, every time you"},{"startTime":1116.953,"endTime":1119.533,"body":"travel and going from the customer"},{"startTime":1119.533,"endTime":1122.078,"body":"and hear their pain points, They"},{"startTime":1119.533,"endTime":1122.078,"body":"should be in front of the customer."},{"startTime":1122.078,"endTime":1124.168,"body":"And he's like, well, I don't"},{"startTime":1122.078,"endTime":1124.168,"body":"know if I could do that."},{"startTime":1124.178,"endTime":1127.318,"body":"I'm like, yeah, because that's the"},{"startTime":1124.178,"endTime":1127.318,"body":"agility that we're talking about"},{"startTime":1127.718,"endTime":1130.468,"body":"Well, maybe your meetings will"},{"startTime":1127.718,"endTime":1130.468,"body":"be shorter if your customers."},{"startTime":1130.718,"endTime":1135.268,"body":"Had built this empathy for the customer"},{"startTime":1130.718,"endTime":1135.268,"body":"and really understood like oh when we were"},{"startTime":1135.268,"endTime":1141.173,"body":"at customer a Little timmy said, I don't"},{"startTime":1135.268,"endTime":1141.173,"body":"know why like the child labor like He's"},{"startTime":1141.173,"endTime":1149.778,"body":"like Johnny's graduating elementary school"},{"startTime":1141.173,"endTime":1149.778,"body":"soon, and he said He's on H one B Visa and"},{"startTime":1150.028,"endTime":1151.018,"body":"That's a little topical."},{"startTime":1151.018,"endTime":1153.238,"body":"2025. We'll see how"},{"startTime":1151.018,"endTime":1153.238,"body":"this ages in the future."},{"startTime":1153.548,"endTime":1156.928,"body":"If you were able in your sprint planning"},{"startTime":1153.548,"endTime":1156.928,"body":"to say like this is the functionality"},{"startTime":1156.928,"endTime":1160.368,"body":"we want to do, we want to add this drop"},{"startTime":1156.928,"endTime":1160.368,"body":"down and let the customer get through"},{"startTime":1160.368,"endTime":1165.758,"body":"process why faster and I want to do that"},{"startTime":1160.368,"endTime":1165.758,"body":"because little Timmy said that getting"},{"startTime":1165.758,"endTime":1167.498,"body":"through this process was terrible."},{"startTime":1167.498,"endTime":1171.638,"body":"we all thought that 18 clicks"},{"startTime":1167.498,"endTime":1171.638,"body":"was easy enough, but little Timmy"},{"startTime":1171.638,"endTime":1174.668,"body":"said that his little tiny fingers"},{"startTime":1171.638,"endTime":1174.668,"body":"can't click that many times."},{"startTime":1174.668,"endTime":1177.298,"body":"And we got to make it five"},{"startTime":1174.668,"endTime":1177.298,"body":"clicks or something those"},{"startTime":1177.328,"endTime":1178.468,"body":"conversations can be shortcut."},{"startTime":1178.468,"endTime":1181.558,"body":"Whereas otherwise you have"},{"startTime":1178.468,"endTime":1181.558,"body":"to sell development on."},{"startTime":1182.013,"endTime":1186.018,"body":"These things that you do every day on your"},{"startTime":1182.013,"endTime":1186.018,"body":"development machine, you don't realize"},{"startTime":1186.258,"endTime":1189.348,"body":"how painful they are to the customers"},{"startTime":1186.258,"endTime":1189.348,"body":"because you never talk to the customers."},{"startTime":1189.648,"endTime":1192.068,"body":"Oh, dude, so there's so much there, right?"},{"startTime":1192.078,"endTime":1196.368,"body":"First of all, if the development team was"},{"startTime":1192.078,"endTime":1196.368,"body":"directly interfacing with the customer and"},{"startTime":1196.368,"endTime":1200.608,"body":"the customer has a pain point, then the"},{"startTime":1196.368,"endTime":1200.608,"body":"development team could ask that question"},{"startTime":1200.608,"endTime":1203.698,"body":"or the customer could say, well, this"},{"startTime":1200.608,"endTime":1203.698,"body":"is so painful, I have to do 18 clicks."},{"startTime":1203.698,"endTime":1205.658,"body":"What is it that you're"},{"startTime":1203.698,"endTime":1205.658,"body":"trying to actually achieve?"},{"startTime":1205.738,"endTime":1210.118,"body":"And so it's no longer about like going"},{"startTime":1205.738,"endTime":1210.118,"body":"back as a product person to your team"},{"startTime":1210.118,"endTime":1211.738,"body":"and say, we need to have a drop down."},{"startTime":1212.058,"endTime":1213.908,"body":"That's just the how part, right?"},{"startTime":1214.258,"endTime":1215.498,"body":"What are you trying to achieve?"},{"startTime":1215.758,"endTime":1217.778,"body":"And developers can ask questions."},{"startTime":1217.778,"endTime":1220.068,"body":"What if, what if you could do X?"},{"startTime":1220.088,"endTime":1221.148,"body":"What if you could do Y?"},{"startTime":1221.518,"endTime":1225.748,"body":"And the pushback could be, well that's"},{"startTime":1221.518,"endTime":1225.748,"body":"too many, it's still too many key clicks."},{"startTime":1226.098,"endTime":1229.118,"body":"Okay, well we'll come back to the"},{"startTime":1226.098,"endTime":1229.118,"body":"table with some other solution, right?"},{"startTime":1229.368,"endTime":1230.688,"body":"That is valuable."},{"startTime":1230.708,"endTime":1235.258,"body":"That's gold compared to going downstream"},{"startTime":1230.708,"endTime":1235.258,"body":"and then saying well, we need a drop down."},{"startTime":1235.298,"endTime":1235.568,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1235.568,"endTime":1236.618,"body":"Well, we'll give you a drop down."},{"startTime":1236.898,"endTime":1238.218,"body":"Then you take it back to the customer."},{"startTime":1238.218,"endTime":1240.328,"body":"The customer says there's too"},{"startTime":1238.218,"endTime":1240.328,"body":"many values in the drop down."},{"startTime":1240.328,"endTime":1241.178,"body":"I get lost in there."},{"startTime":1241.428,"endTime":1242.668,"body":"Maybe it should have been a radio button."},{"startTime":1242.678,"endTime":1243.028,"body":"Who knows?"},{"startTime":1243.048,"endTime":1245.568,"body":"It could be a multi combo"},{"startTime":1243.048,"endTime":1245.568,"body":"box, whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1245.578,"endTime":1250.868,"body":"So it's not about the how it's about"},{"startTime":1245.578,"endTime":1250.868,"body":"not only is it about the what they need,"},{"startTime":1251.108,"endTime":1255.518,"body":"but also more importantly, I think, is"},{"startTime":1251.108,"endTime":1255.518,"body":"the why, why do you want to do this?"},{"startTime":1255.538,"endTime":1255.808,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1255.858,"endTime":1259.748,"body":"Oh, well, because every time we go through"},{"startTime":1255.858,"endTime":1259.748,"body":"this experience, it saves 15 seconds"},{"startTime":1260.208,"endTime":1261.758,"body":"and we go through it 1000 times a day."},{"startTime":1261.888,"endTime":1262.868,"body":"Yeah, that's why."},{"startTime":1263.008,"endTime":1265.908,"body":"So that's actually a pain point"},{"startTime":1263.008,"endTime":1265.908,"body":"that we can align with, right?"},{"startTime":1265.908,"endTime":1267.108,"body":"Yeah, trying to solve it."},{"startTime":1267.358,"endTime":1269.548,"body":"So I think it's important"},{"startTime":1267.358,"endTime":1269.548,"body":"for developers to."},{"startTime":1269.933,"endTime":1273.393,"body":"Interface with customers and be able to"},{"startTime":1269.933,"endTime":1273.393,"body":"ask questions and learn what the real"},{"startTime":1273.393,"endTime":1275.003,"body":"needs are, what the real pain points are."},{"startTime":1275.103,"endTime":1276.623,"body":"The brave ones will also push back."},{"startTime":1276.623,"endTime":1279.353,"body":"Sometimes it's not about just"},{"startTime":1276.623,"endTime":1279.353,"body":"saying yes, sir. No, ma'am."},{"startTime":1279.353,"endTime":1279.593,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1279.593,"endTime":1284.183,"body":"Or sometimes you say, you want that, but"},{"startTime":1279.593,"endTime":1284.183,"body":"you know, wouldn't it be better if you"},{"startTime":1284.183,"endTime":1287.523,"body":"didn't have to deal with any of that and"},{"startTime":1284.183,"endTime":1287.523,"body":"we could just give you a sub page over"},{"startTime":1287.523,"endTime":1290.113,"body":"here or whatever the situation might be."},{"startTime":1290.393,"endTime":1294.303,"body":"So sometimes it's easier for the"},{"startTime":1290.393,"endTime":1294.303,"body":"developers to simply ask the right"},{"startTime":1294.303,"endTime":1299.023,"body":"questions, say no in the right way, or"},{"startTime":1294.303,"endTime":1299.023,"body":"just say, well, okay, but what about"},{"startTime":1299.023,"endTime":1302.503,"body":"this instead, instead of just plain"},{"startTime":1299.023,"endTime":1302.503,"body":"blank saying no, much, much quicker."},{"startTime":1302.593,"endTime":1306.163,"body":"You know, having the intermediary"},{"startTime":1302.593,"endTime":1306.163,"body":"as a product person, to me, that"},{"startTime":1306.173,"endTime":1309.693,"body":"now you've introduced yourself as"},{"startTime":1306.173,"endTime":1309.693,"body":"a product person as the bottleneck,"},{"startTime":1309.943,"endTime":1313.523,"body":"because when a dev asks an interesting"},{"startTime":1309.943,"endTime":1313.523,"body":"question, you're going to go, I don't"},{"startTime":1313.523,"endTime":1315.303,"body":"know, let me get back to you on that."},{"startTime":1315.603,"endTime":1317.593,"body":"Okay, wait, right, right."},{"startTime":1317.733,"endTime":1319.653,"body":"You've introduced waste right here, right."},{"startTime":1320.273,"endTime":1325.023,"body":"Somebody asked me recently can I, can"},{"startTime":1320.273,"endTime":1325.023,"body":"I take this site and make it dark mode"},{"startTime":1325.423,"endTime":1329.123,"body":"and I said theoretically it should"},{"startTime":1325.423,"endTime":1329.123,"body":"be easy to implement because CSS."},{"startTime":1329.393,"endTime":1332.773,"body":"But let me take that to the dev"},{"startTime":1329.393,"endTime":1332.773,"body":"team and ask them because if the"},{"startTime":1332.773,"endTime":1336.643,"body":"site is written in a way where"},{"startTime":1332.773,"endTime":1336.643,"body":"all the CSS selectors are easily."},{"startTime":1337.018,"endTime":1338.848,"body":"Flipped, then no problem."},{"startTime":1339.198,"endTime":1343.408,"body":"I was like, but if all that stuff's hard"},{"startTime":1339.198,"endTime":1343.408,"body":"coded, then it's going to be a huge issue."},{"startTime":1343.658,"endTime":1347.328,"body":"If the backend code is a mess,"},{"startTime":1343.658,"endTime":1347.328,"body":"And they never implemented it"},{"startTime":1347.328,"endTime":1348.038,"body":"like that in the first place."},{"startTime":1348.278,"endTime":1351.098,"body":"I wouldn't know as a product manager,"},{"startTime":1348.278,"endTime":1351.098,"body":"I wouldn't know that they didn't"},{"startTime":1351.108,"endTime":1354.338,"body":"take a lot of diligence to implement"},{"startTime":1351.108,"endTime":1354.338,"body":"this control or they just like grab"},{"startTime":1354.338,"endTime":1357.138,"body":"something off the shelf that they"},{"startTime":1354.338,"endTime":1357.138,"body":"don't have a lot of control over"},{"startTime":1357.148,"endTime":1358.728,"body":"just to kind of move things along."},{"startTime":1358.798,"endTime":1359.408,"body":"I wouldn't know."},{"startTime":1359.568,"endTime":1362.748,"body":"So I had  to check with the development"},{"startTime":1359.568,"endTime":1362.748,"body":"team, a better thing to do would have"},{"startTime":1362.748,"endTime":1366.608,"body":"been to invite like my tech lead or my"},{"startTime":1362.748,"endTime":1366.608,"body":"lead developer  a rep from the team to"},{"startTime":1366.608,"endTime":1369.238,"body":"that meeting where I was talking with"},{"startTime":1366.608,"endTime":1369.238,"body":"the stakeholders  so that we could"},{"startTime":1369.348,"endTime":1373.068,"body":"just answer the question right away and"},{"startTime":1369.348,"endTime":1373.068,"body":"be like no, all of our stuff is done"},{"startTime":1373.068,"endTime":1374.578,"body":"where we could hook up light dark mode."},{"startTime":1374.648,"endTime":1378.638,"body":"We just never implemented mode selector,"},{"startTime":1374.648,"endTime":1378.638,"body":"the little box to select light or"},{"startTime":1378.678,"endTime":1383.368,"body":"dark, super easy, 10 minutes or no,"},{"startTime":1378.678,"endTime":1383.368,"body":"this is heavy refactoring and then I"},{"startTime":1383.368,"endTime":1386.238,"body":"could just tell the stakeholder right"},{"startTime":1383.368,"endTime":1386.238,"body":"there, like it looks, these are the"},{"startTime":1386.238,"endTime":1387.838,"body":"things I have my roadmap ahead of that."},{"startTime":1387.838,"endTime":1389.208,"body":"And they're all way more"},{"startTime":1387.838,"endTime":1389.208,"body":"important than that."},{"startTime":1389.258,"endTime":1391.678,"body":"And I could just level"},{"startTime":1389.258,"endTime":1391.678,"body":"set right there on a call."},{"startTime":1391.678,"endTime":1393.478,"body":"look, I got a lot of more"},{"startTime":1391.678,"endTime":1393.478,"body":"important stuff to do."},{"startTime":1393.728,"endTime":1395.818,"body":"I want to get there eventually"},{"startTime":1393.728,"endTime":1395.818,"body":", can this wait a quarter?"},{"startTime":1395.818,"endTime":1398.168,"body":"And then the business person"},{"startTime":1395.818,"endTime":1398.168,"body":"probably would be like, yeah,"},{"startTime":1398.218,"endTime":1399.198,"body":"all that stuff's more important."},{"startTime":1399.198,"endTime":1400.268,"body":"You can wait a quarter, whatever."},{"startTime":1400.278,"endTime":1403.678,"body":"But I am leading to a place"},{"startTime":1400.278,"endTime":1403.678,"body":"where eventually we get to light"},{"startTime":1403.678,"endTime":1405.948,"body":"mode, dark mode,  I probably"},{"startTime":1403.678,"endTime":1405.948,"body":"would ask some more questions."},{"startTime":1406.568,"endTime":1409.418,"body":"I think the important thing is you're"},{"startTime":1406.568,"endTime":1409.418,"body":"having those straight off discussions"},{"startTime":1409.508,"endTime":1411.008,"body":"earlier with the right people."},{"startTime":1411.068,"endTime":1414.798,"body":"I think , the important point"},{"startTime":1411.068,"endTime":1414.798,"body":"here is developers complaining."},{"startTime":1415.183,"endTime":1418.113,"body":"There's too many meetings because"},{"startTime":1415.183,"endTime":1418.113,"body":"we've implemented scrum, but you're"},{"startTime":1418.113,"endTime":1421.183,"body":"just implementing like scrum out"},{"startTime":1418.113,"endTime":1421.183,"body":"of the box and standing up all the"},{"startTime":1421.183,"endTime":1422.673,"body":"means just to have all the meetings."},{"startTime":1422.923,"endTime":1426.403,"body":"This is one of those a shoe Hari"},{"startTime":1422.923,"endTime":1426.403,"body":"things if you've come from like chaos"},{"startTime":1426.403,"endTime":1430.533,"body":"development or nothing no process at"},{"startTime":1426.403,"endTime":1430.533,"body":"all and you set up scrum Out of the box"},{"startTime":1430.943,"endTime":1435.043,"body":"sure it might be annoying for a while"},{"startTime":1430.943,"endTime":1435.043,"body":"while you're saying no you have to have"},{"startTime":1435.373,"endTime":1437.333,"body":"A retro and a sprint demo and whatever."},{"startTime":1437.333,"endTime":1439.713,"body":"And you're like, I don't understand"},{"startTime":1437.333,"endTime":1439.713,"body":"what is even in a sprint."},{"startTime":1439.723,"endTime":1441.003,"body":"How do I even get users?"},{"startTime":1441.213,"endTime":1444.953,"body":"That stuff can be scary, but  anybody"},{"startTime":1441.213,"endTime":1444.953,"body":"complaining about meeting overload,"},{"startTime":1444.973,"endTime":1449.353,"body":"any developer complaining about meeting"},{"startTime":1444.973,"endTime":1449.353,"body":"overload, try this, don't have any of"},{"startTime":1449.353,"endTime":1453.313,"body":"these meetings that a retrospective"},{"startTime":1449.353,"endTime":1453.313,"body":"aside, don't have any of these meetings"},{"startTime":1453.343,"endTime":1454.653,"body":"that a customer is not part of."},{"startTime":1454.903,"endTime":1456.103,"body":"Okay, you don't want a daily stand up?"},{"startTime":1456.103,"endTime":1459.483,"body":"Fine, don't have a daily stand up"},{"startTime":1456.103,"endTime":1459.483,"body":". Don't have a daily stand up as long"},{"startTime":1459.493,"endTime":1464.073,"body":"as when someone says they're stuck"},{"startTime":1459.493,"endTime":1464.073,"body":"on something, you're going on a slack"},{"startTime":1464.103,"endTime":1466.343,"body":"and having like an impromptu huddle."},{"startTime":1466.593,"endTime":1471.673,"body":"If you're getting together impromptu"},{"startTime":1466.593,"endTime":1471.673,"body":"when Things happen if you're basically"},{"startTime":1471.673,"endTime":1476.583,"body":"doing like the pull version of a"},{"startTime":1471.673,"endTime":1476.583,"body":"stand up, Rather than like a daily"},{"startTime":1476.583,"endTime":1480.453,"body":"cadence just on a set schedule"},{"startTime":1476.583,"endTime":1480.453,"body":"what happens come rain or shine"},{"startTime":1480.903,"endTime":1481.173,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1481.173,"endTime":1484.553,"body":"if when somebody picks something up"},{"startTime":1481.173,"endTime":1484.553,"body":"and opens up a repo, they never been"},{"startTime":1484.553,"endTime":1487.173,"body":"in for the first time, they get another"},{"startTime":1484.553,"endTime":1487.173,"body":"developer to look over their shoulder."},{"startTime":1487.483,"endTime":1490.943,"body":"when you want to do a PR, you say"},{"startTime":1487.483,"endTime":1490.943,"body":"right there, Hey, I need a PR."},{"startTime":1490.943,"endTime":1492.573,"body":"I need someone to look over"},{"startTime":1490.943,"endTime":1492.573,"body":"my shoulder and do a PR."},{"startTime":1492.823,"endTime":1494.413,"body":"You get someone on a call right there."},{"startTime":1494.433,"endTime":1494.773,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1494.823,"endTime":1496.673,"body":"If that's your version, I agree with you."},{"startTime":1496.733,"endTime":1499.753,"body":"You don't need to do, you probably"},{"startTime":1496.733,"endTime":1499.753,"body":"don't need to daily stand up But yeah,"},{"startTime":1500.043,"endTime":1503.653,"body":"I think at the backbone of that, it"},{"startTime":1500.043,"endTime":1503.653,"body":"was really just having sound working"},{"startTime":1503.663,"endTime":1507.863,"body":"agreements because if somebody's stuck"},{"startTime":1503.663,"endTime":1507.863,"body":"on something as a team, you could decide"},{"startTime":1507.903,"endTime":1511.663,"body":"if anybody's stuck on anything for, let's"},{"startTime":1507.903,"endTime":1511.663,"body":"say more than an hour, put something in"},{"startTime":1511.663,"endTime":1513.353,"body":"Slack or whatever you're using, right."},{"startTime":1513.403,"endTime":1515.683,"body":"to collaborate and somebody can help you."},{"startTime":1515.973,"endTime":1518.663,"body":"Wait till the next morning because"},{"startTime":1515.973,"endTime":1518.663,"body":"you're doing it by the book, right?"},{"startTime":1518.693,"endTime":1520.573,"body":"And then raise it at the daily stand up."},{"startTime":1520.823,"endTime":1522.193,"body":"Yeah, there's a lot there."},{"startTime":1522.243,"endTime":1524.303,"body":"the topic that we're talking about is"},{"startTime":1522.243,"endTime":1524.303,"body":"like, well, we're going to have all"},{"startTime":1524.303,"endTime":1525.533,"body":"these meetings and they're all one size."},{"startTime":1525.543,"endTime":1527.733,"body":"So it's all like, oh, the scrum"},{"startTime":1525.543,"endTime":1527.733,"body":"guide says, the scrum guide"},{"startTime":1527.733,"endTime":1528.783,"body":"says we have to have them all."},{"startTime":1529.033,"endTime":1531.263,"body":"And they're a waste of my time, right?"},{"startTime":1531.263,"endTime":1533.223,"body":"Well, if you're finding meetings"},{"startTime":1531.263,"endTime":1533.223,"body":"are a waste of your time, and"},{"startTime":1533.233,"endTime":1536.883,"body":"you're not using the retro to"},{"startTime":1533.233,"endTime":1536.883,"body":"either correct the meetings or."},{"startTime":1537.378,"endTime":1540.068,"body":"To bring the customer into"},{"startTime":1537.378,"endTime":1540.068,"body":"the ones that aren't useful."},{"startTime":1540.068,"endTime":1544.008,"body":"So that thereby making them useful"},{"startTime":1540.068,"endTime":1544.008,"body":"or something else if you're in a"},{"startTime":1544.008,"endTime":1547.238,"body":"bad working environment and there's"},{"startTime":1544.008,"endTime":1547.238,"body":"no way of improving it, there's"},{"startTime":1547.248,"endTime":1549.178,"body":"one piece of advice on a podcast."},{"startTime":1549.218,"endTime":1549.908,"body":"We always give."},{"startTime":1550.278,"endTime":1551.518,"body":"Keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":1551.788,"endTime":1554.518,"body":"Most of the time though, when people"},{"startTime":1551.788,"endTime":1554.518,"body":"complain about having too many"},{"startTime":1554.548,"endTime":1555.768,"body":"meetings or meeting overload, it's."},{"startTime":1556.058,"endTime":1558.868,"body":"they say, well, we already"},{"startTime":1556.058,"endTime":1558.868,"body":"have all these other meetings."},{"startTime":1558.868,"endTime":1560.718,"body":"We have collaboration calls, et cetera."},{"startTime":1560.718,"endTime":1562.088,"body":"And then we have these scrum meetings."},{"startTime":1562.428,"endTime":1566.368,"body":"And when you dig down deep enough, you'll"},{"startTime":1562.428,"endTime":1566.368,"body":"find that if they did the things right"},{"startTime":1566.428,"endTime":1571.088,"body":"during the scrum meetings anyway, that the"},{"startTime":1566.428,"endTime":1571.088,"body":"other meetings basically are superfluous."},{"startTime":1571.118,"endTime":1572.108,"body":"Why are you having all these of them?"},{"startTime":1572.148,"endTime":1573.878,"body":"Like, you don't need them"},{"startTime":1572.148,"endTime":1573.878,"body":"because we've always had them."},{"startTime":1573.898,"endTime":1576.108,"body":"I've seen that too, where I've"},{"startTime":1573.898,"endTime":1576.108,"body":"been in organizations where they"},{"startTime":1576.108,"endTime":1580.643,"body":"have like all engineering, The team"},{"startTime":1576.108,"endTime":1580.643,"body":"stand up and then all the engineers"},{"startTime":1580.643,"endTime":1582.093,"body":"together have a different stand up"},{"startTime":1582.093,"endTime":1583.133,"body":"Why would you do that?"},{"startTime":1583.433,"endTime":1587.313,"body":"if you're going to the agile principle"},{"startTime":1583.433,"endTime":1587.313,"body":"of each team creates a process that works"},{"startTime":1587.313,"endTime":1591.273,"body":"the best for the team, that could be this"},{"startTime":1587.313,"endTime":1591.273,"body":"whole category is like, Hey, you know"},{"startTime":1591.273,"endTime":1595.013,"body":"what you scrum, but you know what, if you"},{"startTime":1591.273,"endTime":1595.013,"body":"don't want to use scrum, if you want to"},{"startTime":1595.013,"endTime":1597.613,"body":"use combine, if you want to use whatever,"},{"startTime":1595.013,"endTime":1597.613,"body":"if you don't want to use any process at"},{"startTime":1597.613,"endTime":1599.303,"body":"all,, do whatever works for your team."},{"startTime":1599.563,"endTime":1602.693,"body":"Every team should have their own"},{"startTime":1599.563,"endTime":1602.693,"body":"processes that's tailored to fit the team."},{"startTime":1603.068,"endTime":1604.778,"body":"By the team for the team."},{"startTime":1605.028,"endTime":1608.498,"body":"And if that's seen as extreme"},{"startTime":1605.028,"endTime":1608.498,"body":"in your workplace, you have"},{"startTime":1608.508,"endTime":1609.988,"body":"problems with your workplace."},{"startTime":1610.448,"endTime":1612.688,"body":"We've taken scrum completely out"},{"startTime":1610.448,"endTime":1612.688,"body":"of the equation at this point,"},{"startTime":1613.148,"endTime":1616.888,"body":"because I have teams that use"},{"startTime":1613.148,"endTime":1616.888,"body":"combine, use combine well, right."},{"startTime":1616.888,"endTime":1618.798,"body":"And all the events and"},{"startTime":1616.888,"endTime":1618.798,"body":"everything are on demand."},{"startTime":1618.888,"endTime":1619.938,"body":"We have a daily standup."},{"startTime":1619.968,"endTime":1621.128,"body":"Sometimes we do it async."},{"startTime":1621.478,"endTime":1623.478,"body":"Sometimes we don't like if"},{"startTime":1621.478,"endTime":1623.478,"body":"everyone's just kind of clicking"},{"startTime":1623.488,"endTime":1626.748,"body":"and is on task and unblocked and"},{"startTime":1623.488,"endTime":1626.748,"body":"whatever, just pulling the top item."},{"startTime":1626.998,"endTime":1628.378,"body":"We just say, Hey, we're, we're working."},{"startTime":1628.378,"endTime":1628.998,"body":"Everything's fine."},{"startTime":1629.473,"endTime":1630.768,"body":"You know, and that's it."},{"startTime":1631.018,"endTime":1633.128,"body":"I see a lot of people say this."},{"startTime":1633.378,"endTime":1635.648,"body":", we've suggested a few"},{"startTime":1633.378,"endTime":1635.648,"body":"things use the process."},{"startTime":1635.648,"endTime":1636.328,"body":"It works for you."},{"startTime":1636.538,"endTime":1637.748,"body":"Use the meetings that work for you."},{"startTime":1637.818,"endTime":1640.148,"body":"If the meetings aren't productive,"},{"startTime":1637.818,"endTime":1640.148,"body":"bring it up in your retro,"},{"startTime":1640.278,"endTime":1641.438,"body":"make the meetings productive."},{"startTime":1641.548,"endTime":1643.188,"body":"If customers aren't in there and"},{"startTime":1641.548,"endTime":1643.188,"body":"it's supposed to be in there,"},{"startTime":1643.198,"endTime":1644.248,"body":"you get the customers in there."},{"startTime":1644.498,"endTime":1647.178,"body":"And if you can't do any of"},{"startTime":1644.498,"endTime":1647.178,"body":"that, keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":1647.228,"endTime":1649.568,"body":"a lot of people stay in the shu"},{"startTime":1647.228,"endTime":1649.568,"body":"stage for a long, long time."},{"startTime":1649.568,"endTime":1650.598,"body":"People don't realize that."},{"startTime":1650.948,"endTime":1653.238,"body":"That's actually something you"},{"startTime":1650.948,"endTime":1653.238,"body":"can just quickly jump out of."},{"startTime":1653.238,"endTime":1654.958,"body":"Well, the student has to want to improve."},{"startTime":1654.988,"endTime":1655.918,"body":"That's absolutely right."},{"startTime":1655.918,"endTime":1656.708,"body":"Or to improve in the shoe stage."},{"startTime":1657.168,"endTime":1660.218,"body":"So meeting overload, always going to"},{"startTime":1657.168,"endTime":1660.218,"body":"be the first thing everyone throws out."},{"startTime":1660.218,"endTime":1663.188,"body":"The next thing people are going"},{"startTime":1660.218,"endTime":1663.188,"body":"to throw out is  agile quote,"},{"startTime":1663.188,"endTime":1665.708,"body":"agile, they, they usually bring"},{"startTime":1663.188,"endTime":1665.708,"body":"up scrum when they say agile."},{"startTime":1666.008,"endTime":1671.008,"body":"Agile is just micromanagement,"},{"startTime":1666.008,"endTime":1671.008,"body":"disguised with another word or pro"},{"startTime":1671.038,"endTime":1674.398,"body":"typical project management, disguised"},{"startTime":1671.038,"endTime":1674.398,"body":"as what we would call waterfall."},{"startTime":1674.458,"endTime":1674.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1674.578,"endTime":1676.618,"body":"The complaints here that"},{"startTime":1674.578,"endTime":1676.618,"body":"you'll hear is that the daily"},{"startTime":1676.618,"endTime":1677.818,"body":"standup is a status meeting."},{"startTime":1678.068,"endTime":1678.418,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1678.768,"endTime":1680.368,"body":"Nothing ever changes after retrospective."},{"startTime":1680.438,"endTime":1683.128,"body":", we say the same problems over"},{"startTime":1680.438,"endTime":1683.128,"body":"and over again, and nothing ever"},{"startTime":1683.128,"endTime":1685.998,"body":"gets resolved You're not allowed"},{"startTime":1683.128,"endTime":1685.998,"body":"to take anything out of a sprint."},{"startTime":1686.178,"endTime":1688.198,"body":"And if you're scrum, you're not"},{"startTime":1686.178,"endTime":1688.198,"body":"allowed to take anything out of this."},{"startTime":1688.268,"endTime":1690.708,"body":"Management will tell you what's"},{"startTime":1688.268,"endTime":1690.708,"body":"in the sprint and then keep"},{"startTime":1690.758,"endTime":1692.018,"body":"adding stuff to the sprint."},{"startTime":1692.268,"endTime":1694.428,"body":"As the sprint goes on, they'll keep"},{"startTime":1692.268,"endTime":1694.428,"body":"adding stuff without taking stuff"},{"startTime":1694.438,"endTime":1697.978,"body":"out, the work in the spring is up"},{"startTime":1694.438,"endTime":1697.978,"body":"to the team, so if they feel like"},{"startTime":1697.978,"endTime":1701.668,"body":"something can't be done or needs to"},{"startTime":1697.978,"endTime":1701.668,"body":"be moved out, they should move it out."},{"startTime":1701.848,"endTime":1703.858,"body":"They should be feeling"},{"startTime":1701.848,"endTime":1703.858,"body":"empowered to do that."},{"startTime":1703.918,"endTime":1705.938,"body":"but a lot of shops, they're"},{"startTime":1703.918,"endTime":1705.938,"body":"not real quick over."},{"startTime":1705.938,"endTime":1708.008,"body":"It's like the other thing"},{"startTime":1705.938,"endTime":1708.008,"body":"that aggravates me about this"},{"startTime":1708.008,"endTime":1710.938,"body":"category, not micromanagement,"},{"startTime":1708.008,"endTime":1710.938,"body":"well short of micromanagement."},{"startTime":1711.188,"endTime":1713.488,"body":"But that goes hand in hand with"},{"startTime":1711.188,"endTime":1713.488,"body":"this category, I think we're"},{"startTime":1713.488,"endTime":1715.128,"body":"going to talk about this later is."},{"startTime":1715.378,"endTime":1719.618,"body":"The re segmentation of the market,"},{"startTime":1715.378,"endTime":1719.618,"body":"like what PMI is reacting to PMI"},{"startTime":1719.618,"endTime":1723.128,"body":"is reacting to the re segment thing"},{"startTime":1719.618,"endTime":1723.128,"body":"of the project management market"},{"startTime":1723.598,"endTime":1726.828,"body":"to pull the agile stuff out and be"},{"startTime":1723.598,"endTime":1726.828,"body":"like, well, we don't need project"},{"startTime":1726.828,"endTime":1728.808,"body":"management in whole, we don't need it."},{"startTime":1729.258,"endTime":1732.018,"body":"We can just work directly with"},{"startTime":1729.258,"endTime":1732.018,"body":"customers, work back and forth."},{"startTime":1732.018,"endTime":1735.408,"body":"So basically the customer has their"},{"startTime":1732.018,"endTime":1735.408,"body":"own little delivery team and we'll just"},{"startTime":1735.408,"endTime":1737.518,"body":"deliver software on a  regular cadence."},{"startTime":1737.528,"endTime":1740.668,"body":"You pick what the highest"},{"startTime":1737.528,"endTime":1740.668,"body":"priority thing is on the cadence."},{"startTime":1740.718,"endTime":1743.768,"body":"And then , at a certain cadence,"},{"startTime":1740.718,"endTime":1743.768,"body":"you will be getting finished"},{"startTime":1743.768,"endTime":1745.118,"body":"working quality software, right?"},{"startTime":1745.368,"endTime":1748.718,"body":"there was a resegmentation of the old"},{"startTime":1745.368,"endTime":1748.718,"body":"project management software development."},{"startTime":1749.133,"endTime":1753.503,"body":"They sort of pulled this little piece"},{"startTime":1749.133,"endTime":1753.503,"body":"of software development out of project"},{"startTime":1753.503,"endTime":1755.553,"body":"management and said, Oh, we're agile now."},{"startTime":1756.033,"endTime":1757.613,"body":"And then product management."},{"startTime":1757.863,"endTime":1762.783,"body":"Soda was born in parallel out of"},{"startTime":1757.863,"endTime":1762.783,"body":"the GM role of an organization"},{"startTime":1762.973,"endTime":1766.683,"body":"that was dedicated to like a single"},{"startTime":1762.973,"endTime":1766.683,"body":"suite of software or whatever."},{"startTime":1767.073,"endTime":1767.983,"body":"And then at some point."},{"startTime":1768.398,"endTime":1771.978,"body":"The product management side of the house"},{"startTime":1768.398,"endTime":1771.978,"body":"said like, Oh, we were never agile."},{"startTime":1771.988,"endTime":1773.708,"body":"We never did any of these agile things."},{"startTime":1773.708,"endTime":1775.298,"body":"We never followed any of"},{"startTime":1773.708,"endTime":1775.298,"body":"these agile principles."},{"startTime":1775.518,"endTime":1779.418,"body":"And they're trying to rebrand"},{"startTime":1775.518,"endTime":1779.418,"body":"themselves as like, Oh, we always."},{"startTime":1779.828,"endTime":1780.608,"body":"We're doing something."},{"startTime":1780.648,"endTime":1783.698,"body":"it was never agile transformation that"},{"startTime":1780.648,"endTime":1783.698,"body":"we were doing to make product work."},{"startTime":1784.098,"endTime":1787.918,"body":"It was always a product operating"},{"startTime":1784.098,"endTime":1787.918,"body":"model transfer it, it bugs me because"},{"startTime":1787.918,"endTime":1789.338,"body":"it's, there's a lot of stuff in here."},{"startTime":1789.338,"endTime":1794.428,"body":"this micromanagement, disguised"},{"startTime":1789.338,"endTime":1794.428,"body":"category that also can co opt and"},{"startTime":1794.428,"endTime":1796.328,"body":"destroy good product management."},{"startTime":1796.648,"endTime":1797.308,"body":"Practices."},{"startTime":1797.648,"endTime":1801.948,"body":"So , like management throwing stuff"},{"startTime":1797.648,"endTime":1801.948,"body":"into your sprint when the sprint is"},{"startTime":1801.948,"endTime":1805.118,"body":"already kicked off which basically"},{"startTime":1801.948,"endTime":1805.118,"body":"means Management is not letting you"},{"startTime":1805.138,"endTime":1810.008,"body":"keep a prioritized backlog for the"},{"startTime":1805.138,"endTime":1810.008,"body":"team to pull the top off of and say,"},{"startTime":1810.008,"endTime":1811.258,"body":"Oh, these things are the priority."},{"startTime":1811.458,"endTime":1813.878,"body":"We're going to take as many as we"},{"startTime":1811.458,"endTime":1813.878,"body":"think we can take and do in a sprint."},{"startTime":1813.888,"endTime":1816.368,"body":"And then boom, that becomes"},{"startTime":1813.888,"endTime":1816.368,"body":"our sprint super clean, cut and"},{"startTime":1816.368,"endTime":1818.178,"body":"easy way of managing your work."},{"startTime":1818.428,"endTime":1819.328,"body":"But when you're,"},{"startTime":1819.698,"endTime":1825.468,"body":"Just relabeling terms like that practice"},{"startTime":1819.698,"endTime":1825.468,"body":"is kind of nuanced and it took me a"},{"startTime":1825.468,"endTime":1830.298,"body":"second to explain the prioritization"},{"startTime":1825.468,"endTime":1830.298,"body":"of an ordered backlog and pulling"},{"startTime":1830.298,"endTime":1831.528,"body":"it in and creating a sprint from it."},{"startTime":1831.778,"endTime":1834.658,"body":"That's not going to make its"},{"startTime":1831.778,"endTime":1834.658,"body":"way into the nomenclature of the"},{"startTime":1834.658,"endTime":1836.528,"body":"micromanaging  management culture."},{"startTime":1836.728,"endTime":1838.638,"body":"So some of product management is not."},{"startTime":1839.043,"endTime":1842.663,"body":"possible in this type of culture,"},{"startTime":1839.043,"endTime":1842.663,"body":"that's a culture where you're"},{"startTime":1842.663,"endTime":1848.043,"body":"instilling this idea that whatever"},{"startTime":1842.663,"endTime":1848.043,"body":"I say right now is important."},{"startTime":1848.113,"endTime":1851.413,"body":"Oh, and 10 minutes later, I can come back"},{"startTime":1848.113,"endTime":1851.413,"body":"to you and say, well, that's changed."},{"startTime":1851.423,"endTime":1855.963,"body":"So deal with it because they will turn"},{"startTime":1851.423,"endTime":1855.963,"body":"that around at the team when the team"},{"startTime":1855.963,"endTime":1857.743,"body":"says we're already sprinting, right?"},{"startTime":1857.953,"endTime":1860.713,"body":"And it's okay if you want to change"},{"startTime":1857.953,"endTime":1860.713,"body":"things, but you're adding something,"},{"startTime":1860.713,"endTime":1861.933,"body":"take something equivalent out."},{"startTime":1862.323,"endTime":1863.973,"body":"It's like, you're agile, figure it out."},{"startTime":1864.223,"endTime":1865.363,"body":"So they'll use that against you."},{"startTime":1865.373,"endTime":1866.063,"body":"You're agile."},{"startTime":1866.463,"endTime":1870.283,"body":"So I can, I can come to you anytime and I"},{"startTime":1866.463,"endTime":1870.283,"body":"can change what you're working on and you"},{"startTime":1870.283,"endTime":1872.093,"body":"shall not complain because you're agile."},{"startTime":1872.343,"endTime":1872.743,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1872.823,"endTime":1876.473,"body":"And they missed the point at that"},{"startTime":1872.823,"endTime":1876.473,"body":"stage because that whole opportunity"},{"startTime":1876.473,"endTime":1877.933,"body":"cost discussion that we have."},{"startTime":1878.183,"endTime":1880.163,"body":"Yeah, I'll bring this"},{"startTime":1878.183,"endTime":1880.163,"body":"in, but at what cost?"},{"startTime":1880.603,"endTime":1884.293,"body":"I like that  this bald face"},{"startTime":1880.603,"endTime":1884.293,"body":"micromanagement, like they're"},{"startTime":1884.293,"endTime":1889.253,"body":"doing that while also setting"},{"startTime":1884.293,"endTime":1889.253,"body":"inflexible milestone deadlines."},{"startTime":1889.263,"endTime":1889.773,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1889.833,"endTime":1891.913,"body":"And then saying like, you have"},{"startTime":1889.833,"endTime":1891.913,"body":"to have this done by this date."},{"startTime":1891.953,"endTime":1893.613,"body":"And I'm like, but that date falls"},{"startTime":1891.953,"endTime":1893.613,"body":"in the middle of the sprints."},{"startTime":1893.673,"endTime":1894.453,"body":"I don't care."},{"startTime":1894.473,"endTime":1895.053,"body":"Get it done."},{"startTime":1895.053,"endTime":1895.243,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1895.523,"endTime":1900.273,"body":"These incompatible worlds  someone"},{"startTime":1895.523,"endTime":1900.273,"body":"who's just in the shoe phase of"},{"startTime":1900.273,"endTime":1903.753,"body":"shoe hurry, just trying to learn"},{"startTime":1900.273,"endTime":1903.753,"body":"there's no, you, there's no way."},{"startTime":1904.153,"endTime":1905.673,"body":"I can't imagine how you learn."},{"startTime":1906.038,"endTime":1910.458,"body":"With this kind of stuff layered over the"},{"startTime":1906.038,"endTime":1910.458,"body":"top of like, Whoa, we're agile, but we're,"},{"startTime":1910.648,"endTime":1913.678,"body":"we have deadlines we're agile, but we"},{"startTime":1910.648,"endTime":1913.678,"body":"don't get to take stuff out of the sprint."},{"startTime":1913.858,"endTime":1916.988,"body":"Oh, we're agile, but we don't get to"},{"startTime":1913.858,"endTime":1916.988,"body":"choose from the top of the backlog of what"},{"startTime":1917.058,"endTime":1920.258,"body":"there's so much in here that like,"},{"startTime":1917.058,"endTime":1920.258,"body":"I understand what I started the"},{"startTime":1920.258,"endTime":1923.281,"body":"podcast being like, these points are"},{"startTime":1920.258,"endTime":1923.281,"body":"ridiculous as we talk through them."},{"startTime":1923.281,"endTime":1925.508,"body":"I'm like, these points"},{"startTime":1923.281,"endTime":1925.508,"body":"are completely valid."},{"startTime":1925.608,"endTime":1926.888,"body":"They are totally valid."},{"startTime":1926.888,"endTime":1930.488,"body":"And yeah, I mean, to your point"},{"startTime":1926.888,"endTime":1930.488,"body":"if you're agile, but right."},{"startTime":1930.788,"endTime":1934.088,"body":"This is exactly why team members"},{"startTime":1930.788,"endTime":1934.088,"body":"basically become jaded after a while."},{"startTime":1934.088,"endTime":1938.258,"body":"And so it was supposed to be agile, but"},{"startTime":1934.088,"endTime":1938.258,"body":"really, or there's no such thing as agile."},{"startTime":1938.258,"endTime":1938.648,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1938.933,"endTime":1940.053,"body":"Well, or it doesn't work here."},{"startTime":1940.053,"endTime":1940.983,"body":"That's the other thing, right?"},{"startTime":1941.253,"endTime":1943.623,"body":"maybe as you may work in your"},{"startTime":1941.253,"endTime":1943.623,"body":"organization, but it doesn't"},{"startTime":1943.623,"endTime":1945.043,"body":"work here because we tried it."},{"startTime":1945.103,"endTime":1946.473,"body":"Well, I mean, did you really try it?"},{"startTime":1946.523,"endTime":1949.113,"body":"How many conversations about"},{"startTime":1946.523,"endTime":1949.113,"body":"like, we need more velocity, like"},{"startTime":1949.113,"endTime":1951.593,"body":"how many of those until you just"},{"startTime":1949.113,"endTime":1951.593,"body":"believe agile doesn't work anywhere."},{"startTime":1951.653,"endTime":1956.143,"body":"I can only imagine the developer who"},{"startTime":1951.653,"endTime":1956.143,"body":"works at let's say you work at a FinTech"},{"startTime":1956.143,"endTime":1957.393,"body":"or you work in finance or whatever."},{"startTime":1957.393,"endTime":1960.543,"body":"And you know, you work at one place"},{"startTime":1957.393,"endTime":1960.543,"body":"for three years in a place five years"},{"startTime":1960.543,"endTime":1963.913,"body":"in another place, every place is"},{"startTime":1960.543,"endTime":1963.913,"body":"going to be using agile terminology."},{"startTime":1964.313,"endTime":1966.923,"body":"You know, going to be doing sprints,"},{"startTime":1964.313,"endTime":1966.923,"body":"this kind of stuff, and they're"},{"startTime":1967.023,"endTime":1969.133,"body":"all going to have these problems."},{"startTime":1969.163,"endTime":1969.613,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1969.773,"endTime":1970.693,"body":"You're absolutely correct."},{"startTime":1970.933,"endTime":1973.063,"body":"And I think we've talked"},{"startTime":1970.933,"endTime":1973.063,"body":"about this on other podcasts."},{"startTime":1973.063,"endTime":1977.688,"body":"I mean, part of the rationale is people"},{"startTime":1973.063,"endTime":1977.688,"body":"that are making these decisions, Make the"},{"startTime":1977.728,"endTime":1982.178,"body":"senior level managers didn't grow up in"},{"startTime":1977.728,"endTime":1982.178,"body":"an agile way or agile ways of working."},{"startTime":1982.178,"endTime":1983.738,"body":"So that's what they know."},{"startTime":1983.798,"endTime":1987.128,"body":"It's been successful for them and they're"},{"startTime":1983.798,"endTime":1987.128,"body":"going to continue doing it that way."},{"startTime":1987.378,"endTime":1990.478,"body":"And part of that also is we"},{"startTime":1987.378,"endTime":1990.478,"body":"talk about training teams."},{"startTime":1990.728,"endTime":1994.128,"body":"But we don't really often talk"},{"startTime":1990.728,"endTime":1994.128,"body":"about training leadership, right?"},{"startTime":1994.138,"endTime":1997.498,"body":"And that's where it starts"},{"startTime":1994.138,"endTime":1997.498,"body":"often potty training leadership."},{"startTime":1997.748,"endTime":2000.158,"body":"Well, they need to do a"},{"startTime":1997.748,"endTime":2000.158,"body":"training wheels on longer teams."},{"startTime":2000.158,"endTime":2003.408,"body":"So like another one that we don't"},{"startTime":2000.158,"endTime":2003.408,"body":"normally talk about on the podcast, which"},{"startTime":2003.408,"endTime":2005.798,"body":"I think is a neat category and we're"},{"startTime":2003.408,"endTime":2005.798,"body":"going to take two seconds to talk about."},{"startTime":2005.848,"endTime":2008.718,"body":"It misalignment like agile slash scrum."},{"startTime":2008.738,"endTime":2010.118,"body":"Mainly this is leveled at scrum."},{"startTime":2010.188,"endTime":2011.368,"body":"So let's just say scrum."},{"startTime":2011.658,"endTime":2014.348,"body":"Scrum is misaligned with creative work."},{"startTime":2014.348,"endTime":2017.053,"body":"They'll say like software"},{"startTime":2014.348,"endTime":2017.053,"body":"development is creative work."},{"startTime":2017.303,"endTime":2023.223,"body":"And with all your two week deadlines"},{"startTime":2017.303,"endTime":2023.223,"body":"and your time boxes and whatnot, like"},{"startTime":2023.343,"endTime":2025.773,"body":"I'll give you an example, I guess I"},{"startTime":2023.343,"endTime":2025.773,"body":"should finish what I was saying, with"},{"startTime":2025.773,"endTime":2029.373,"body":"your two week deadlines and your time"},{"startTime":2025.773,"endTime":2029.373,"body":"boxes and your everything has to be"},{"startTime":2029.373,"endTime":2031.533,"body":"known to be pointed or whatever things."},{"startTime":2031.758,"endTime":2033.978,"body":"that doesn't lend itself"},{"startTime":2031.758,"endTime":2033.978,"body":"to being creative."},{"startTime":2033.998,"endTime":2034.638,"body":"that's what they'll say."},{"startTime":2034.888,"endTime":2037.978,"body":"And I'll give you an example"},{"startTime":2034.888,"endTime":2037.978,"body":"just . To put a period at the end"},{"startTime":2037.978,"endTime":2040.538,"body":"of this super long running sentence."},{"startTime":2041.008,"endTime":2044.948,"body":"I've worked on a number of teams where"},{"startTime":2041.008,"endTime":2044.948,"body":"I've heard a developer say I don't know"},{"startTime":2044.948,"endTime":2048.158,"body":"how long this is going to take, so I"},{"startTime":2044.948,"endTime":2048.158,"body":"can't guarantee it'll be done in two"},{"startTime":2048.158,"endTime":2052.038,"body":"weeks or they'll say we could deliver"},{"startTime":2048.158,"endTime":2052.038,"body":"a vertical slice of functionality"},{"startTime":2052.138,"endTime":2057.518,"body":"that's working, but that will not"},{"startTime":2052.138,"endTime":2057.518,"body":"solve the user's entire problem."},{"startTime":2057.768,"endTime":2062.938,"body":"So what is the point of delivering"},{"startTime":2057.768,"endTime":2062.938,"body":"a slice until the entire pie"},{"startTime":2062.958,"endTime":2064.418,"body":"can be delivered to the user?"},{"startTime":2064.828,"endTime":2066.078,"body":"What's the point of delivering a slice?"},{"startTime":2066.078,"endTime":2070.128,"body":"There's no point in that so  why"},{"startTime":2066.078,"endTime":2070.128,"body":"put this like unnatural two week You"},{"startTime":2070.128,"endTime":2074.078,"body":"know bookend on the functionality"},{"startTime":2070.128,"endTime":2074.078,"body":"instead of just like taking as much"},{"startTime":2074.078,"endTime":2075.938,"body":"time as it needs to, to deliver it."},{"startTime":2075.998,"endTime":2080.688,"body":"So this is the being creative and, and"},{"startTime":2075.998,"endTime":2080.688,"body":"I mean, you could say like, you could,"},{"startTime":2080.798,"endTime":2084.748,"body":"you could also say being creative in like"},{"startTime":2080.798,"endTime":2084.748,"body":"exploratory tasks, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2084.748,"endTime":2086.648,"body":"Like refactoring things or, or."},{"startTime":2086.873,"endTime":2089.283,"body":"Figuring out new technologies to work"},{"startTime":2086.873,"endTime":2089.283,"body":"in that kind of stuff could go into"},{"startTime":2089.283,"endTime":2091.613,"body":"this banner as well as like, well,"},{"startTime":2089.283,"endTime":2091.613,"body":"you, they don't fit in two weeks."},{"startTime":2091.803,"endTime":2095.563,"body":"A lot of times when people say what,"},{"startTime":2091.803,"endTime":2095.563,"body":"what's the point let's, when we"},{"startTime":2095.563,"endTime":2098.863,"body":"can do, we have to actually deliver"},{"startTime":2095.563,"endTime":2098.863,"body":"everything because there's still"},{"startTime":2099.113,"endTime":2102.943,"body":"potentially shippable increment"},{"startTime":2099.113,"endTime":2102.943,"body":"isn't usable in production."},{"startTime":2102.973,"endTime":2104.683,"body":"So why even release it, right?"},{"startTime":2104.903,"endTime":2107.543,"body":"We'll just hang on to it and we'll"},{"startTime":2104.903,"endTime":2107.543,"body":"release these five, six features"},{"startTime":2107.543,"endTime":2110.413,"body":"together, whatever stories,"},{"startTime":2107.543,"endTime":2110.413,"body":"whatever you may have where they're"},{"startTime":2110.443,"endTime":2111.903,"body":"missing the point on this is."},{"startTime":2112.153,"endTime":2113.783,"body":"You need that feedback, right?"},{"startTime":2114.103,"endTime":2118.483,"body":"So if you wait months and then get"},{"startTime":2114.103,"endTime":2118.483,"body":"feedback, you'll have to pivot very hard"},{"startTime":2118.733,"endTime":2123.463,"body":"as opposed to pivoting quickly for that"},{"startTime":2118.733,"endTime":2123.463,"body":"little micro piece of the functionality."},{"startTime":2123.713,"endTime":2126.713,"body":"So that's actually very key"},{"startTime":2123.713,"endTime":2126.713,"body":"yeah, but it's not ready."},{"startTime":2126.733,"endTime":2127.863,"body":"It doesn't have to be ready."},{"startTime":2128.103,"endTime":2129.493,"body":"Just show them where you're heading."},{"startTime":2129.743,"endTime":2131.993,"body":"They'll tell you if you're heading"},{"startTime":2129.743,"endTime":2131.993,"body":"in the right direction or not."},{"startTime":2132.453,"endTime":2134.943,"body":"And so that's one of the"},{"startTime":2132.453,"endTime":2134.943,"body":"things that I always use with"},{"startTime":2134.983,"endTime":2136.483,"body":"teams Yeah, it's not ready."},{"startTime":2136.483,"endTime":2137.123,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2137.413,"endTime":2141.183,"body":"Sometimes they'll say, well, we can't"},{"startTime":2137.413,"endTime":2141.183,"body":"deploy it to stage because it needs"},{"startTime":2141.183,"endTime":2143.093,"body":"these six other features to go with it."},{"startTime":2143.253,"endTime":2145.883,"body":"It's like, what would happen"},{"startTime":2143.253,"endTime":2145.883,"body":"if you did deploy it without"},{"startTime":2145.883,"endTime":2147.273,"body":"the other five or six, right?"},{"startTime":2147.303,"endTime":2147.823,"body":"What would happen?"},{"startTime":2148.073,"endTime":2149.363,"body":"It's not in production, right?"},{"startTime":2149.393,"endTime":2150.123,"body":"Can you show it?"},{"startTime":2150.373,"endTime":2152.593,"body":"Yeah, but it won't work for"},{"startTime":2150.373,"endTime":2152.593,"body":"all of these other things."},{"startTime":2152.833,"endTime":2153.223,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2153.673,"endTime":2155.193,"body":"But does it do what it's supposed to do?"},{"startTime":2155.613,"endTime":2157.053,"body":"And can we get some feedback on it?"},{"startTime":2157.053,"endTime":2158.553,"body":". So I think that mindset of."},{"startTime":2158.888,"endTime":2162.488,"body":"Getting rapid feedback that needs"},{"startTime":2158.888,"endTime":2162.488,"body":"to be instilled in these teams"},{"startTime":2162.488,"endTime":2164.948,"body":"This is a great one that you'll"},{"startTime":2162.488,"endTime":2164.948,"body":"also hear from , non developers,"},{"startTime":2164.958,"endTime":2167.668,"body":"but in technical functions like"},{"startTime":2164.958,"endTime":2167.668,"body":"data science and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2168.018,"endTime":2171.488,"body":"They'll say innovation may"},{"startTime":2168.018,"endTime":2171.488,"body":"not happen through iteration?"},{"startTime":2172.823,"endTime":2175.933,"body":"We may need to work on something for"},{"startTime":2172.823,"endTime":2175.933,"body":"a long period of time , like delve"},{"startTime":2175.933,"endTime":2180.283,"body":"into building a complicated data model"},{"startTime":2175.933,"endTime":2180.283,"body":"or some, some, like a, like a deep"},{"startTime":2180.283,"endTime":2183.873,"body":"refactor tasks if we're going to go"},{"startTime":2180.283,"endTime":2183.873,"body":"refactor like I talked in the podcast"},{"startTime":2183.883,"endTime":2187.653,"body":"before about going through a PHP, a"},{"startTime":2183.883,"endTime":2187.653,"body":"five to seven upgrade or whatever,"},{"startTime":2187.653,"endTime":2189.243,"body":"that upgrade took a really long time."},{"startTime":2189.553,"endTime":2193.113,"body":"Now, in the end we chunked it up"},{"startTime":2189.553,"endTime":2193.113,"body":"by module and it's a bad example"},{"startTime":2193.113,"endTime":2197.753,"body":"because I did iterate through that"},{"startTime":2193.113,"endTime":2197.753,"body":"upgrade module by module basically."},{"startTime":2198.223,"endTime":2204.663,"body":"but we did hold on to all of the finished"},{"startTime":2198.223,"endTime":2204.663,"body":"pieces all of the builds and demos that"},{"startTime":2204.663,"endTime":2210.083,"body":"we did, we held onto those in a lower"},{"startTime":2204.663,"endTime":2210.083,"body":"environment and we didn't push to a upper"},{"startTime":2210.083,"endTime":2211.993,"body":"environment until all of them were done."},{"startTime":2212.043,"endTime":2217.323,"body":"But you know, the case that big"},{"startTime":2212.043,"endTime":2217.323,"body":"leaps are not done iteratively."},{"startTime":2217.728,"endTime":2220.468,"body":"Which is kind of the case being"},{"startTime":2217.728,"endTime":2220.468,"body":"made here like oh the big innovation"},{"startTime":2220.858,"endTime":2223.938,"body":"It's done by just letting me go"},{"startTime":2220.858,"endTime":2223.938,"body":"off in a corner and work forever."},{"startTime":2223.948,"endTime":2227.588,"body":"Like I don't know about that I"},{"startTime":2223.948,"endTime":2227.588,"body":"think the big innovations come"},{"startTime":2227.588,"endTime":2231.078,"body":"through Microdiscoveries and"},{"startTime":2227.588,"endTime":2231.078,"body":"steering in the right direction."},{"startTime":2231.078,"endTime":2234.823,"body":"You may change and you may have lots"},{"startTime":2231.078,"endTime":2234.823,"body":"of changes On the way in direction."},{"startTime":2235.253,"endTime":2238.943,"body":"But if you wait and don't get"},{"startTime":2235.253,"endTime":2238.943,"body":"those , frequently, I don't know"},{"startTime":2238.943,"endTime":2241.903,"body":"how often you're going to have"},{"startTime":2238.943,"endTime":2241.903,"body":"those big lucky breaks, really."},{"startTime":2241.903,"endTime":2245.233,"body":"Yeah another thing that developers will"},{"startTime":2241.903,"endTime":2245.233,"body":"talk about will be the interruption of"},{"startTime":2245.233,"endTime":2249.153,"body":"the flow state , Oh, you need to give"},{"startTime":2245.233,"endTime":2249.153,"body":"me time to be in flow or what they call"},{"startTime":2249.153,"endTime":2252.243,"body":"it in social network, like wired in"},{"startTime":2249.153,"endTime":2252.243,"body":"he's wired in don't, don't touch him."},{"startTime":2252.243,"endTime":2253.743,"body":"He's wired in don't disturb him."},{"startTime":2253.753,"endTime":2257.193,"body":"Okay I was just pointing out earlier,"},{"startTime":2253.753,"endTime":2257.193,"body":"like sometimes we won't do daily standup"},{"startTime":2257.193,"endTime":2261.473,"body":"because people know what they're working"},{"startTime":2257.193,"endTime":2261.473,"body":"on and like everyone's got Slack, right?"},{"startTime":2261.503,"endTime":2263.483,"body":"Slack is a asynchronous tool."},{"startTime":2263.483,"endTime":2266.423,"body":"So like if you got notifications and all"},{"startTime":2263.483,"endTime":2266.423,"body":"that stuff turned on, like turn all that"},{"startTime":2266.423,"endTime":2269.393,"body":"stuff off, you go check the channels"},{"startTime":2266.423,"endTime":2269.393,"body":"when you are ready to check the channels."},{"startTime":2269.868,"endTime":2273.048,"body":"It's just like your email and your phone"},{"startTime":2269.868,"endTime":2273.048,"body":"and everything else like do you you let"},{"startTime":2273.058,"endTime":2276.478,"body":"all that stuff interrupt you every single"},{"startTime":2273.058,"endTime":2276.478,"body":"time It beeps every single day all day"},{"startTime":2276.728,"endTime":2280.148,"body":"I would guess you don't get anything"},{"startTime":2276.728,"endTime":2280.148,"body":"done If you do sure i'm sure people have"},{"startTime":2280.148,"endTime":2283.158,"body":"the notifications on they might hear a"},{"startTime":2280.148,"endTime":2283.158,"body":"ding and they just like Have the self"},{"startTime":2283.158,"endTime":2287.368,"body":"discipline not to check it, but yeah, I"},{"startTime":2283.158,"endTime":2287.368,"body":"turn everything off because again like"},{"startTime":2287.618,"endTime":2291.738,"body":"i'm a 90s kid So like I I learned that"},{"startTime":2287.618,"endTime":2291.738,"body":"like you go check your email when you"},{"startTime":2291.738,"endTime":2296.848,"body":"want to check your email Don't let it"},{"startTime":2291.738,"endTime":2296.848,"body":"check you you've got mail How do you"},{"startTime":2296.848,"endTime":2298.188,"body":"can I find that sound online?"},{"startTime":2298.468,"endTime":2299.408,"body":"I'm sure you can."},{"startTime":2299.638,"endTime":2303.958,"body":"it's really just thinking about"},{"startTime":2299.638,"endTime":2303.958,"body":"how you're working as a team"},{"startTime":2303.958,"endTime":2305.918,"body":"rather than individuals, right?"},{"startTime":2305.918,"endTime":2309.418,"body":"Because a bunch of individuals"},{"startTime":2305.918,"endTime":2309.418,"body":"do not make a team."},{"startTime":2309.878,"endTime":2312.738,"body":"So what I'm trying to say is this, let's"},{"startTime":2309.878,"endTime":2312.738,"body":"say you have six people on your team."},{"startTime":2312.988,"endTime":2317.828,"body":"Do you have a team of six people or do you"},{"startTime":2312.988,"endTime":2317.828,"body":"have six teams of a person each, right?"},{"startTime":2318.108,"endTime":2322.688,"body":"And I seen that, especially in strong"},{"startTime":2318.108,"endTime":2322.688,"body":"teams that have strong personalities."},{"startTime":2323.093,"endTime":2323.543,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2323.623,"endTime":2327.803,"body":"Well, people say, well I've"},{"startTime":2323.623,"endTime":2327.803,"body":"been a developer for 15 years"},{"startTime":2327.873,"endTime":2329.183,"body":"and I know what I'm doing."},{"startTime":2329.553,"endTime":2330.703,"body":"You give me what needs to be done."},{"startTime":2330.753,"endTime":2332.863,"body":"I'll give you the best quality work ever?"},{"startTime":2333.193,"endTime":2334.843,"body":"Just leave me alone for 10 days."},{"startTime":2334.913,"endTime":2335.123,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2335.373,"endTime":2336.513,"body":"I worry about those people."},{"startTime":2336.563,"endTime":2339.703,"body":"Well, I have to say, man, this is"},{"startTime":2336.563,"endTime":2339.703,"body":"not the podcast of debunking any of"},{"startTime":2339.713,"endTime":2341.183,"body":"these and I'm also not trying to,"},{"startTime":2341.233,"endTime":2343.533,"body":"I'm not trying to come down"},{"startTime":2341.233,"endTime":2343.533,"body":"harsh on any of these points."},{"startTime":2343.973,"endTime":2348.903,"body":"But I do have to say why so"},{"startTime":2343.973,"endTime":2348.903,"body":"few developers have adopted XP?"},{"startTime":2349.153,"endTime":2352.713,"body":"Like 20 plus years after XP was a thing."},{"startTime":2352.963,"endTime":2357.443,"body":"And they still resist working"},{"startTime":2352.963,"endTime":2357.443,"body":"together because, because coding"},{"startTime":2357.453,"endTime":2359.203,"body":"with somebody else is scary."},{"startTime":2359.613,"endTime":2361.823,"body":"To have somebody look at the"},{"startTime":2359.613,"endTime":2361.823,"body":"code that you're writing over"},{"startTime":2361.823,"endTime":2363.503,"body":"your shoulder, that's just scary."},{"startTime":2363.753,"endTime":2366.673,"body":"So people are insecure about"},{"startTime":2363.753,"endTime":2366.673,"body":"it for the wrong reason."},{"startTime":2366.693,"endTime":2370.743,"body":"I make Python work, and I think"},{"startTime":2366.693,"endTime":2370.743,"body":"the code is pretty fantastic for"},{"startTime":2370.743,"endTime":2371.823,"body":"my own usage, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2372.133,"endTime":2376.393,"body":"But it's scary,  The point I'm trying"},{"startTime":2372.133,"endTime":2376.393,"body":"to make here is why is there not more of"},{"startTime":2376.393,"endTime":2381.233,"body":"that teaming that journeyman apprentice"},{"startTime":2376.393,"endTime":2381.233,"body":"kind of master, master journeyman"},{"startTime":2381.233,"endTime":2383.163,"body":"apprentice type of, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2383.163,"endTime":2386.313,"body":"Like your journeyman can kind of do"},{"startTime":2383.163,"endTime":2386.313,"body":"everything on their own, but you know,"},{"startTime":2386.313,"endTime":2389.893,"body":"your apprentices need to peer with"},{"startTime":2386.313,"endTime":2389.893,"body":"someone and then the master kind of helps."},{"startTime":2390.233,"endTime":2394.123,"body":"all people at all skill levels,"},{"startTime":2390.233,"endTime":2394.123,"body":"like why there's not more of that?"},{"startTime":2394.133,"endTime":2398.693,"body":"Why that particular movement did"},{"startTime":2394.133,"endTime":2398.693,"body":"not become the standard, which"},{"startTime":2398.693,"endTime":2399.923,"body":"is still not the standard today."},{"startTime":2400.143,"endTime":2403.043,"body":"The standard today is a junior developer"},{"startTime":2400.143,"endTime":2403.043,"body":"who just figures it out and gets thrown"},{"startTime":2403.043,"endTime":2405.093,"body":"into the fire and gets yelled at a bunch."},{"startTime":2405.343,"endTime":2409.903,"body":"You know that now, like in the"},{"startTime":2405.343,"endTime":2409.903,"body":"next 10 years, Siri set a reminder"},{"startTime":2409.903,"endTime":2413.383,"body":"for 10 years the next 10 years,"},{"startTime":2409.903,"endTime":2413.383,"body":"it's going to be even worse."},{"startTime":2413.433,"endTime":2416.093,"body":"Cause everyone's going to be"},{"startTime":2413.433,"endTime":2416.093,"body":"copying spaghetti code from ChatGPT."},{"startTime":2416.163,"endTime":2419.513,"body":"And Oh boy, we do need to move on,"},{"startTime":2416.163,"endTime":2419.513,"body":"but I'll say this one last thing"},{"startTime":2419.513,"endTime":2421.533,"body":"on why that model didn't take off."},{"startTime":2421.583,"endTime":2425.323,"body":"And that's because The barrier to"},{"startTime":2421.583,"endTime":2425.323,"body":"entry became much lower for people."},{"startTime":2425.393,"endTime":2427.673,"body":"I thought you were gonna say"},{"startTime":2425.393,"endTime":2427.673,"body":"because management hates you, that"},{"startTime":2427.673,"endTime":2431.123,"body":"management does hate you, but,"},{"startTime":2427.673,"endTime":2431.123,"body":"but, but the barrier to entry, went"},{"startTime":2431.503,"endTime":2434.373,"body":"away from show us what you do now."},{"startTime":2434.623,"endTime":2437.613,"body":"It doesn't matter how bad it is, and"},{"startTime":2434.623,"endTime":2437.613,"body":"we'll help you get better, right?"},{"startTime":2437.863,"endTime":2442.013,"body":"Like, I'm thinking in my mind, the"},{"startTime":2437.863,"endTime":2442.013,"body":"analogy with martial arts, when you"},{"startTime":2442.013,"endTime":2445.963,"body":"go in, and you're nobody when you go"},{"startTime":2442.013,"endTime":2445.963,"body":"in, you get beat up all the time, but"},{"startTime":2445.963,"endTime":2449.373,"body":"they teach you, they teach you stances,"},{"startTime":2445.963,"endTime":2449.373,"body":"they teach you how to roll, how to"},{"startTime":2449.373,"endTime":2453.253,"body":"fall and roll, all of that stuff,"},{"startTime":2449.373,"endTime":2453.253,"body":"and you get better over time, right?"},{"startTime":2453.743,"endTime":2457.393,"body":"We don't have that today, because"},{"startTime":2453.743,"endTime":2457.393,"body":"to come in, you don't need to"},{"startTime":2457.393,"endTime":2460.683,"body":"show that initiative, all you need"},{"startTime":2457.393,"endTime":2460.683,"body":"to show, Flash is some kind of"},{"startTime":2460.683,"endTime":2463.463,"body":"certification says, Hey, I'm qualified."},{"startTime":2463.783,"endTime":2465.213,"body":"Developers don't have that problem though."},{"startTime":2465.213,"endTime":2468.383,"body":"they basically just don't need"},{"startTime":2465.213,"endTime":2468.383,"body":"to show any, like the, I don't"},{"startTime":2468.383,"endTime":2469.093,"body":"even know what they show."},{"startTime":2469.113,"endTime":2474.493,"body":"They show the latest languages and"},{"startTime":2469.113,"endTime":2474.493,"body":"skills on their resume, but really"},{"startTime":2474.503,"endTime":2476.173,"body":"you can't tell if they have it or not."},{"startTime":2476.503,"endTime":2477.443,"body":"That's not great."},{"startTime":2477.503,"endTime":2480.448,"body":"Well, I thought about something"},{"startTime":2477.503,"endTime":2480.448,"body":"also while we were talking."},{"startTime":2480.458,"endTime":2481.788,"body":"can we add to the working agreement?"},{"startTime":2481.798,"endTime":2485.758,"body":"Can we add a little star onto that and"},{"startTime":2481.798,"endTime":2485.758,"body":"say, and Eric Schmidt, because that"},{"startTime":2485.758,"endTime":2487.398,"body":"was Eric on the Eric Schmidt podcast."},{"startTime":2487.588,"endTime":2488.228,"body":"That was his view."},{"startTime":2488.228,"endTime":2490.958,"body":"He's like all these developers"},{"startTime":2488.228,"endTime":2490.958,"body":"and they never do what I want."},{"startTime":2490.978,"endTime":2492.178,"body":"You know what I'm saying?"},{"startTime":2492.188,"endTime":2495.158,"body":"Like, but I feel like the Eric"},{"startTime":2492.188,"endTime":2495.158,"body":"Schmidts of the world will be like"},{"startTime":2495.228,"endTime":2499.188,"body":"two developers in one chair who"},{"startTime":2495.228,"endTime":2499.188,"body":"would nobody can live at that speed."},{"startTime":2499.208,"endTime":2500.108,"body":"It's not efficient."},{"startTime":2500.118,"endTime":2500.418,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2500.498,"endTime":2503.658,"body":"I'm not going to squeeze my"},{"startTime":2500.498,"endTime":2503.658,"body":"get me somebody from India."},{"startTime":2503.908,"endTime":2504.248,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2504.558,"endTime":2506.118,"body":"And then we'll get them to work Saturdays."},{"startTime":2506.118,"endTime":2507.918,"body":"That's the latest thing to work 120 hours."},{"startTime":2507.918,"endTime":2508.168,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2508.418,"endTime":2512.568,"body":"So the other thing if anybody to put"},{"startTime":2508.418,"endTime":2512.568,"body":"a, to put a cap on this category,"},{"startTime":2512.568,"endTime":2516.828,"body":"because we rambled too long  scrum"},{"startTime":2512.568,"endTime":2516.828,"body":"should be the thing that creative"},{"startTime":2516.828,"endTime":2518.698,"body":"teams, like if you're scrum."},{"startTime":2519.048,"endTime":2524.338,"body":"If your scrum was a three day scrum and"},{"startTime":2519.048,"endTime":2524.338,"body":"you had no backlog, you just pick the"},{"startTime":2524.338,"endTime":2528.438,"body":"top item up, work for actually, if your"},{"startTime":2524.338,"endTime":2528.438,"body":"scrum didn't have a time box, you had"},{"startTime":2528.438,"endTime":2532.248,"body":"a time box of however long the top item"},{"startTime":2528.438,"endTime":2532.248,"body":"did, I'm describing Kanban seriously,"},{"startTime":2532.248,"endTime":2535.558,"body":"this one do it and you said, I'm going"},{"startTime":2532.248,"endTime":2535.558,"body":"to work on the top thing when I'm done,"},{"startTime":2535.578,"endTime":2538.898,"body":"I trigger a sprint demo, I'm going"},{"startTime":2535.578,"endTime":2538.898,"body":"to demo to the user, get the user on"},{"startTime":2538.898,"endTime":2542.458,"body":"phone, knock it out and then boom, I"},{"startTime":2538.898,"endTime":2542.458,"body":"go right into the next planning, pick"},{"startTime":2542.458,"endTime":2543.768,"body":"up the next thing that's Kanban, right?"},{"startTime":2544.078,"endTime":2545.428,"body":"Like a lot of these things would go away."},{"startTime":2545.428,"endTime":2548.378,"body":"You wouldn't claim that, Oh, I'm not, I"},{"startTime":2545.428,"endTime":2548.378,"body":"can't, can't be creative and use this."},{"startTime":2548.518,"endTime":2552.788,"body":"You absolutely can be used to scrum"},{"startTime":2548.518,"endTime":2552.788,"body":"and be creative at the same time and"},{"startTime":2552.788,"endTime":2555.418,"body":"eat all your cake and pizza at 7am"},{"startTime":2555.468,"endTime":2556.228,"body":"you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":2556.228,"endTime":2560.468,"body":"But most development teams that say"},{"startTime":2556.228,"endTime":2560.468,"body":"they're doing Kanban are actually"},{"startTime":2560.468,"endTime":2562.218,"body":"doing Kanban they're doing Andon."},{"startTime":2562.598,"endTime":2563.608,"body":"So they're not really."},{"startTime":2563.783,"endTime":2565.273,"body":"Doing things like respecting WIP."},{"startTime":2565.683,"endTime":2566.903,"body":"So we keep starting, right?"},{"startTime":2566.953,"endTime":2567.693,"body":"We don't finish."},{"startTime":2567.883,"endTime":2571.663,"body":"But if you are truly doing that, as"},{"startTime":2567.883,"endTime":2571.663,"body":"you mentioned, establishing a flow"},{"startTime":2571.683,"endTime":2573.873,"body":"where it's a pull system, right?"},{"startTime":2574.233,"endTime":2578.153,"body":"You pull the highest priority item,"},{"startTime":2574.233,"endTime":2578.153,"body":"you work on it and push it off to"},{"startTime":2578.153,"endTime":2581.663,"body":"the right, pull the next one, but"},{"startTime":2578.153,"endTime":2581.663,"body":"as soon as that item is finished,"},{"startTime":2581.933,"endTime":2583.833,"body":"get feedback, do a demo right away."},{"startTime":2584.083,"endTime":2586.323,"body":"There's not a designated demo day, right?"},{"startTime":2586.363,"endTime":2587.303,"body":"As there is in Scrum."},{"startTime":2587.733,"endTime":2591.323,"body":"If you're truly doing that, You're doing"},{"startTime":2587.733,"endTime":2591.323,"body":"the best you can to satisfy the customer."},{"startTime":2591.573,"endTime":2594.363,"body":"The other thing that I will point out"},{"startTime":2591.573,"endTime":2594.363,"body":"right before I move out of this category,"},{"startTime":2594.533,"endTime":2599.663,"body":"we did a whole podcast on the term MVP,"},{"startTime":2594.533,"endTime":2599.663,"body":"and I feel that a lot of developers saying"},{"startTime":2599.663,"endTime":2603.213,"body":"that scrum can't be used for creative work"},{"startTime":2599.663,"endTime":2603.213,"body":"or agile, whatever doesn't lend itself"},{"startTime":2603.213,"endTime":2606.363,"body":"to creativity in the development process"},{"startTime":2603.213,"endTime":2606.363,"body":"or through the development process."},{"startTime":2606.753,"endTime":2610.713,"body":"I would expect that part of the"},{"startTime":2606.753,"endTime":2610.713,"body":"watering down or co opting of the"},{"startTime":2610.713,"endTime":2613.703,"body":"term MVP plays into this meaning."},{"startTime":2613.953,"endTime":2617.343,"body":"And also with the product operating"},{"startTime":2613.953,"endTime":2617.343,"body":"model I see that we're going"},{"startTime":2617.343,"endTime":2618.693,"body":"to probably drift even further."},{"startTime":2619.113,"endTime":2625.043,"body":"if you go back and you read the Eric Reese"},{"startTime":2619.113,"endTime":2625.043,"body":"lean startup terminology for MVP, or go"},{"startTime":2625.043,"endTime":2630.323,"body":"listen to our podcasts on MVP, MVP is just"},{"startTime":2625.043,"endTime":2630.323,"body":"the smallest amount you can do to validate"},{"startTime":2630.543,"endTime":2635.433,"body":"an idea against the market, whether it's"},{"startTime":2630.543,"endTime":2635.433,"body":"good or not, and your development team"},{"startTime":2635.683,"endTime":2638.023,"body":"should be the ones doing that validation."},{"startTime":2638.343,"endTime":2640.493,"body":"So is it development team"},{"startTime":2638.343,"endTime":2640.493,"body":"plus product manager?"},{"startTime":2640.803,"endTime":2643.403,"body":"Is it the designer plus the"},{"startTime":2640.803,"endTime":2643.403,"body":"development team is a designer."},{"startTime":2643.403,"endTime":2644.403,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2644.788,"endTime":2648.198,"body":"Your development team should be involved"},{"startTime":2644.788,"endTime":2648.198,"body":"in those experiments that are happening."},{"startTime":2648.468,"endTime":2651.438,"body":"This is why the double diamond,"},{"startTime":2648.468,"endTime":2651.438,"body":"the discovery delivery diamond that"},{"startTime":2651.448,"endTime":2652.988,"body":"drives me insane every time I see it."},{"startTime":2653.308,"endTime":2655.658,"body":"Because it seems like an end to end"},{"startTime":2653.308,"endTime":2655.658,"body":"process where certain people pick it"},{"startTime":2655.658,"endTime":2659.108,"body":"up or whatever, and I'm sure that's"},{"startTime":2655.658,"endTime":2659.108,"body":"what most people see it, and their"},{"startTime":2659.108,"endTime":2663.288,"body":"mode one thinking brain is like, oh,"},{"startTime":2659.108,"endTime":2663.288,"body":"I had my designer, the step one, and"},{"startTime":2663.288,"endTime":2665.898,"body":"I had my developers, the step two"},{"startTime":2663.288,"endTime":2665.898,"body":", that's not what it's supposed to be."},{"startTime":2666.178,"endTime":2668.908,"body":"So if you're saying, Oh, the"},{"startTime":2666.178,"endTime":2668.908,"body":"creative works not put on my plate."},{"startTime":2669.108,"endTime":2673.228,"body":"They just hand the code at me and"},{"startTime":2669.108,"endTime":2673.228,"body":"they say, go monkey code this First of"},{"startTime":2673.228,"endTime":2676.278,"body":"all, keep their resume updated because"},{"startTime":2673.228,"endTime":2676.278,"body":"you've been cut out of all the fun work."},{"startTime":2676.638,"endTime":2678.588,"body":"You're not the fun stuff developer."},{"startTime":2678.598,"endTime":2682.728,"body":"You're the drudgery trying to fix"},{"startTime":2678.598,"endTime":2682.728,"body":"somebody else's code all the time."},{"startTime":2682.728,"endTime":2685.078,"body":"And also if you're in that"},{"startTime":2682.728,"endTime":2685.078,"body":"position,, you're the people that"},{"startTime":2685.128,"endTime":2687.498,"body":"the Eric Schmidt of the world is"},{"startTime":2685.128,"endTime":2687.498,"body":"trying to put out of business."},{"startTime":2687.748,"endTime":2690.578,"body":"Spending billions and billions"},{"startTime":2687.748,"endTime":2690.578,"body":"of dollars on ChatGPT  that's not"},{"startTime":2690.608,"endTime":2691.978,"body":"what development's supposed to be."},{"startTime":2692.258,"endTime":2694.738,"body":"That's not what product management"},{"startTime":2692.258,"endTime":2694.738,"body":"supposed to be You're all supposed to"},{"startTime":2694.738,"endTime":2700.608,"body":"do this mvp testing an idea an idea"},{"startTime":2694.738,"endTime":2700.608,"body":"could be If we tweak some widget or"},{"startTime":2700.618,"endTime":2703.648,"body":"format or something on the website,"},{"startTime":2700.618,"endTime":2703.648,"body":"then people will find it easy to"},{"startTime":2703.648,"endTime":2707.528,"body":"use but an idea could be A whole new"},{"startTime":2703.648,"endTime":2707.528,"body":"idea for an app stands something up."},{"startTime":2707.528,"endTime":2714.578,"body":"Most developers' MVP experience is put"},{"startTime":2707.528,"endTime":2714.578,"body":"out some crappy code that falls over"},{"startTime":2714.728,"endTime":2717.928,"body":"as soon as it gets a load or as soon as"},{"startTime":2714.728,"endTime":2717.928,"body":"it a bug hits or something like that."},{"startTime":2717.978,"endTime":2720.708,"body":"a path through the code that"},{"startTime":2717.978,"endTime":2720.708,"body":"we didn't expect gets hit."},{"startTime":2720.708,"endTime":2723.348,"body":"And then the, then the everything"},{"startTime":2720.708,"endTime":2723.348,"body":"fails and the developers gotta"},{"startTime":2723.348,"endTime":2724.188,"body":"get up in the middle of the night."},{"startTime":2724.488,"endTime":2725.843,"body":"That is not an MVP."},{"startTime":2726.123,"endTime":2726.203,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2726.253,"endTime":2727.273,"body":"That is garbage code."},{"startTime":2727.648,"endTime":2731.078,"body":"I'm laughing because most of the time"},{"startTime":2727.648,"endTime":2731.078,"body":"when people say MVP, they hide behind"},{"startTime":2731.078,"endTime":2735.048,"body":"the term when things fall apart and"},{"startTime":2731.078,"endTime":2735.048,"body":"they just go, well it's MVP, right?"},{"startTime":2735.298,"endTime":2738.358,"body":"No, because then they'll try"},{"startTime":2735.298,"endTime":2738.358,"body":"and say, well, we get that."},{"startTime":2738.378,"endTime":2742.328,"body":"We didn't do that yet because we'll do"},{"startTime":2738.378,"endTime":2742.328,"body":"it later or we'll fix it later and later."},{"startTime":2742.578,"endTime":2743.328,"body":"Doesn't never comes."},{"startTime":2743.358,"endTime":2743.668,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2743.678,"endTime":2745.908,"body":"Or later goes to the bottom of the"},{"startTime":2743.678,"endTime":2745.908,"body":"backlog, which eventually goes away."},{"startTime":2745.978,"endTime":2746.678,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2746.708,"endTime":2746.908,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2746.908,"endTime":2748.208,"body":"So you still have crap out there."},{"startTime":2748.458,"endTime":2748.788,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2748.898,"endTime":2749.618,"body":"Yes, you do."},{"startTime":2749.778,"endTime":2752.468,"body":"this is not called MVP anymore"},{"startTime":2749.778,"endTime":2752.468,"body":"because it's become part and parcel"},{"startTime":2752.468,"endTime":2754.338,"body":"of the product and Lord help you."},{"startTime":2754.338,"endTime":2756.798,"body":"The moment that you start getting"},{"startTime":2754.338,"endTime":2756.798,"body":"paid money for that crap, because"},{"startTime":2756.808,"endTime":2758.508,"body":"that means it's permanent crap."},{"startTime":2758.758,"endTime":2759.468,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2759.568,"endTime":2759.988,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2760.438,"endTime":2763.838,"body":"And then you're living in a house"},{"startTime":2760.438,"endTime":2763.838,"body":"built on a foundation of crap."},{"startTime":2764.088,"endTime":2765.478,"body":"The crapification of product."},{"startTime":2765.728,"endTime":2767.518,"body":"Well we talked a lot"},{"startTime":2765.728,"endTime":2767.518,"body":"about product management."},{"startTime":2767.548,"endTime":2770.468,"body":"I guess it's time to talk about product"},{"startTime":2767.548,"endTime":2770.468,"body":"management for real if you're doing"},{"startTime":2770.468,"endTime":2775.068,"body":"this, if you're doing this story point"},{"startTime":2770.468,"endTime":2775.068,"body":"theater and you're doing this number"},{"startTime":2775.068,"endTime":2779.878,"body":"of hours per story, or you're doing"},{"startTime":2775.068,"endTime":2779.878,"body":"any kind of funkiness about estimation,"},{"startTime":2779.878,"endTime":2783.428,"body":"if you're doing backflips to do"},{"startTime":2779.878,"endTime":2783.428,"body":"estimation, you're living in this world."},{"startTime":2783.428,"endTime":2785.758,"body":"It's like, you're playing"},{"startTime":2783.428,"endTime":2785.758,"body":"some politics, probably."},{"startTime":2786.033,"endTime":2790.463,"body":"About like you say it's a five and then"},{"startTime":2786.033,"endTime":2790.463,"body":"your manager comes like, Ooh, a five reel."},{"startTime":2790.493,"endTime":2795.183,"body":"I had a manager one time who he"},{"startTime":2790.493,"endTime":2795.183,"body":"would sit in sprint planning and no"},{"startTime":2795.183,"endTime":2798.673,"body":"matter what anyone's estimate was,"},{"startTime":2795.183,"endTime":2798.673,"body":"we estimated hours back then, this is"},{"startTime":2798.733,"endTime":2802.563,"body":"years ago and whatever anyone was at,"},{"startTime":2798.733,"endTime":2802.563,"body":"I think it'll take 12 hours to do that."},{"startTime":2802.563,"endTime":2805.343,"body":"And the development manager"},{"startTime":2802.563,"endTime":2805.343,"body":"will go, Ooh, he would use that."},{"startTime":2805.593,"endTime":2807.893,"body":"He'd suck in the air and His"},{"startTime":2805.593,"endTime":2807.893,"body":"voice would go real high."},{"startTime":2807.993,"endTime":2811.073,"body":"12 hours of 12, no matter what"},{"startTime":2807.993,"endTime":2811.073,"body":"you said, you could have been"},{"startTime":2811.073,"endTime":2812.183,"body":"like, it'll take 15 minutes."},{"startTime":2812.183,"endTime":2814.253,"body":"He go, Ooh, 15 minutes."},{"startTime":2814.303,"endTime":2816.183,"body":"I had a simple response to that."},{"startTime":2816.563,"endTime":2816.833,"body":"Just don't know."},{"startTime":2816.833,"endTime":2819.163,"body":"Well, that's what the teams do."},{"startTime":2819.163,"endTime":2819.883,"body":"They weaponize it."},{"startTime":2819.883,"endTime":2822.643,"body":"But no, I would just say, well, how"},{"startTime":2819.883,"endTime":2822.643,"body":"long do you think it should take?"},{"startTime":2822.913,"endTime":2825.853,"body":"You know, so if you say 12, so I"},{"startTime":2822.913,"endTime":2825.853,"body":"think it's more like four hours."},{"startTime":2826.093,"endTime":2826.473,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2826.703,"endTime":2827.023,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":2827.273,"endTime":2829.103,"body":"We'll assign it to you for hours."},{"startTime":2829.103,"endTime":2829.463,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":2829.713,"endTime":2831.103,"body":"You own it, right?"},{"startTime":2831.223,"endTime":2831.613,"body":"Oh, no."},{"startTime":2831.613,"endTime":2832.243,"body":"You're doing the work."},{"startTime":2832.343,"endTime":2835.273,"body":"If we're using scrum, the sprint"},{"startTime":2832.343,"endTime":2835.273,"body":"planning should be a quick, Like"},{"startTime":2835.283,"endTime":2838.243,"body":"here's, it should be the what and"},{"startTime":2835.283,"endTime":2838.243,"body":"then how it should be like the, the,"},{"startTime":2838.243,"endTime":2839.933,"body":"what, here's all of what I want to do."},{"startTime":2840.343,"endTime":2841.603,"body":"And then here's some points on it."},{"startTime":2841.603,"endTime":2844.353,"body":"If we haven't done, or here's"},{"startTime":2841.603,"endTime":2844.353,"body":"some hours or just a wag estimate."},{"startTime":2844.353,"endTime":2844.553,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2844.793,"endTime":2847.143,"body":"And then in detail work,"},{"startTime":2844.793,"endTime":2847.143,"body":"we'll do all the detail work."},{"startTime":2847.583,"endTime":2849.513,"body":"So he'd be in the, what"},{"startTime":2847.583,"endTime":2849.513,"body":"part of the meeting."},{"startTime":2849.998,"endTime":2853.208,"body":"When we're assigning an initial like"},{"startTime":2849.998,"endTime":2853.208,"body":"even t shirt size small, medium,"},{"startTime":2853.208,"endTime":2854.918,"body":"large, whatever Oh, that's a large."},{"startTime":2855.338,"endTime":2859.798,"body":"Really a large I think it's a small"},{"startTime":2855.338,"endTime":2859.798,"body":"He's like, why do you think it's this?"},{"startTime":2859.908,"endTime":2860.748,"body":"What do you got to do?"},{"startTime":2860.878,"endTime":2863.248,"body":"No, you got to do this and then"},{"startTime":2860.878,"endTime":2863.248,"body":"he would go immediately into like"},{"startTime":2863.558,"endTime":2865.868,"body":"he transitioned to the solution."},{"startTime":2866.338,"endTime":2869.683,"body":"So I that story could be a different"},{"startTime":2866.338,"endTime":2869.683,"body":"podcast You Point I'm trying to make"},{"startTime":2869.693,"endTime":2873.163,"body":"with this one is getting beat down"},{"startTime":2869.693,"endTime":2873.163,"body":"about estimates, no matter if they're"},{"startTime":2873.163,"endTime":2877.353,"body":"story points or hours or t shirt sizes"},{"startTime":2873.163,"endTime":2877.353,"body":"or really whatever else, or another"},{"startTime":2877.353,"endTime":2880.523,"body":"reason that most developers are like,"},{"startTime":2877.353,"endTime":2880.523,"body":"they have bad experiences with this."},{"startTime":2880.533,"endTime":2880.973,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2881.453,"endTime":2884.333,"body":"And that's what leads to overestimation"},{"startTime":2881.453,"endTime":2884.333,"body":"and all of that, because they"},{"startTime":2884.333,"endTime":2885.463,"body":"want to protect themselves too."},{"startTime":2885.643,"endTime":2888.233,"body":"You know, another thing we talked"},{"startTime":2885.643,"endTime":2888.233,"body":"about is the business pressure,"},{"startTime":2888.543,"endTime":2891.953,"body":"sometimes this comes from the product"},{"startTime":2888.543,"endTime":2891.953,"body":"manager, Sometimes this comes from."},{"startTime":2892.328,"endTime":2894.048,"body":"Managers, you don't have a"},{"startTime":2892.328,"endTime":2894.048,"body":"product manager, whatever."},{"startTime":2894.258,"endTime":2896.668,"body":"But we talked about just shoving"},{"startTime":2894.258,"endTime":2896.668,"body":"more work into the sprint"},{"startTime":2896.668,"endTime":2897.598,"body":"and not taking anything out."},{"startTime":2897.888,"endTime":2902.988,"body":"But we didn't talk about turning"},{"startTime":2897.888,"endTime":2902.988,"body":"StoryPoint 8s into StoryPoint 3s by just"},{"startTime":2902.998,"endTime":2905.468,"body":"putting out a bunch of code that you"},{"startTime":2902.998,"endTime":2905.468,"body":"know is going to need to be refactored"},{"startTime":2905.478,"endTime":2909.841,"body":"later , basically creating technical"},{"startTime":2905.478,"endTime":2909.841,"body":"debt that's never going to get paid off."},{"startTime":2909.841,"endTime":2910.648,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2910.828,"endTime":2912.288,"body":"Yeah, this is definitely fragile."},{"startTime":2912.288,"endTime":2915.958,"body":"As you're aware, the culture"},{"startTime":2912.288,"endTime":2915.958,"body":"makes the team want to say,"},{"startTime":2915.988,"endTime":2917.118,"body":"sure, that's a three point."},{"startTime":2917.118,"endTime":2918.348,"body":"Right we'll get it out there."},{"startTime":2918.358,"endTime":2919.208,"body":"It's crappy code."},{"startTime":2919.238,"endTime":2920.178,"body":"We'll fix it later."},{"startTime":2920.428,"endTime":2922.418,"body":"That's just terrible because"},{"startTime":2920.428,"endTime":2922.418,"body":"later may never come."},{"startTime":2922.428,"endTime":2925.168,"body":"And it may never come"},{"startTime":2922.428,"endTime":2925.168,"body":"for a very bad reason."},{"startTime":2925.168,"endTime":2928.298,"body":"That is the customer is so"},{"startTime":2925.168,"endTime":2928.298,"body":"disappointed with what they see."},{"startTime":2928.358,"endTime":2929.878,"body":"They don't want you to fix anything."},{"startTime":2929.888,"endTime":2931.688,"body":"They're just leaving you that happens."},{"startTime":2931.938,"endTime":2937.458,"body":"a gripe that the developers rightfully"},{"startTime":2931.938,"endTime":2937.458,"body":"will bring up is that like, for example"},{"startTime":2937.778,"endTime":2941.328,"body":"whenever they point out stuff in a retro,"},{"startTime":2937.778,"endTime":2941.328,"body":"like it's impossible to change things"},{"startTime":2941.338,"endTime":2946.078,"body":"organizationally, basically the, the"},{"startTime":2941.338,"endTime":2946.078,"body":"organization will not allow the teams"},{"startTime":2946.543,"endTime":2948.993,"body":"To make changes outside of their team."},{"startTime":2949.243,"endTime":2952.963,"body":"I was in an organization once where"},{"startTime":2949.243,"endTime":2952.963,"body":"it was like what book is this?"},{"startTime":2953.173,"endTime":2954.813,"body":"I almost want to say it"},{"startTime":2953.173,"endTime":2954.813,"body":"was who moved my cheese."},{"startTime":2955.013,"endTime":2958.273,"body":"It was too early for books, like extreme"},{"startTime":2955.013,"endTime":2958.273,"body":"ownership and stuff like that, about"},{"startTime":2958.273,"endTime":2960.223,"body":"like, there's always something you can do."},{"startTime":2960.253,"endTime":2960.563,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2960.613,"endTime":2963.283,"body":"stop blaming other people for like"},{"startTime":2960.613,"endTime":2963.283,"body":"things that you can't control."},{"startTime":2963.573,"endTime":2967.243,"body":"And just look to your team to do"},{"startTime":2963.573,"endTime":2967.243,"body":"what you can control on your team."},{"startTime":2967.243,"endTime":2969.013,"body":"And I'm like, yeah, but the"},{"startTime":2967.243,"endTime":2969.013,"body":"problems are not in our team."},{"startTime":2969.083,"endTime":2970.943,"body":"The problems are all these"},{"startTime":2969.083,"endTime":2970.943,"body":"handoffs of the team, like the,"},{"startTime":2971.063,"endTime":2972.083,"body":"the problems are all the processes."},{"startTime":2972.083,"endTime":2974.363,"body":"The intra team, inter"},{"startTime":2972.083,"endTime":2974.363,"body":"inter team processes."},{"startTime":2974.398,"endTime":2978.318,"body":"It's all about the organizational"},{"startTime":2974.398,"endTime":2978.318,"body":"construct and the teams have"},{"startTime":2978.318,"endTime":2980.228,"body":"absolutely no say in that right."},{"startTime":2980.478,"endTime":2981.858,"body":"But at the same time."},{"startTime":2982.308,"endTime":2987.888,"body":"Every team that is delivering a"},{"startTime":2982.308,"endTime":2987.888,"body":"solution jointly is being blamed"},{"startTime":2987.908,"endTime":2989.208,"body":"for their individual portion."},{"startTime":2989.258,"endTime":2993.688,"body":"If you fix all of those things, it will"},{"startTime":2989.258,"endTime":2993.688,"body":"still not be a success because the org"},{"startTime":2993.688,"endTime":2995.908,"body":"structure isn't aligned the right way."},{"startTime":2996.218,"endTime":2997.548,"body":"see our podcast on Deming."},{"startTime":2997.598,"endTime":3000.048,"body":"Talk about the system,"},{"startTime":2997.598,"endTime":3000.048,"body":"but this is, the illusion."},{"startTime":3000.048,"endTime":3003.298,"body":"I penned, when I wrote this one"},{"startTime":3000.048,"endTime":3003.298,"body":"down, I wrote it down as the"},{"startTime":3003.298,"endTime":3004.778,"body":"illusion of self organization."},{"startTime":3005.028,"endTime":3005.698,"body":"Self management."},{"startTime":3005.698,"endTime":3008.648,"body":"I don't know what they call it now in"},{"startTime":3005.698,"endTime":3008.648,"body":"this format, but the idea that like your"},{"startTime":3008.648,"endTime":3012.648,"body":"team really has no say in what they take"},{"startTime":3008.648,"endTime":3012.648,"body":"in a sprint planning, no say in team"},{"startTime":3012.658,"endTime":3015.738,"body":"composition, management to take people"},{"startTime":3012.658,"endTime":3015.738,"body":"on and off your team whenever they want."},{"startTime":3015.738,"endTime":3017.038,"body":"Shuffle teams around whenever they want."},{"startTime":3017.268,"endTime":3018.768,"body":"no say in the work methods."},{"startTime":3018.768,"endTime":3023.068,"body":"the agile principle of your team should"},{"startTime":3018.768,"endTime":3023.068,"body":"be in control of like the methods"},{"startTime":3023.148,"endTime":3024.098,"body":"and processes and stuff like that."},{"startTime":3024.358,"endTime":3027.228,"body":"And if you don't have any of that"},{"startTime":3024.358,"endTime":3027.228,"body":"stuff, you're not being agile at all."},{"startTime":3027.408,"endTime":3028.938,"body":"You've got this command"},{"startTime":3027.408,"endTime":3028.938,"body":"and control going on."},{"startTime":3028.938,"endTime":3032.478,"body":"So like, if you're in command and"},{"startTime":3028.938,"endTime":3032.478,"body":"control, no yeah, that's your problem."},{"startTime":3032.878,"endTime":3035.518,"body":"You need to find a non command"},{"startTime":3032.878,"endTime":3035.518,"body":"and control place to work."},{"startTime":3035.768,"endTime":3039.898,"body":"companies who really force this way"},{"startTime":3035.768,"endTime":3039.898,"body":"of working will say that's the best"},{"startTime":3039.898,"endTime":3045.388,"body":"way under the guise of standardization"},{"startTime":3039.898,"endTime":3045.388,"body":"because it makes it easy for them to"},{"startTime":3045.398,"endTime":3050.588,"body":"gauge and assess teams, individuals"},{"startTime":3045.398,"endTime":3050.588,"body":"even if everything's standardized?"},{"startTime":3050.868,"endTime":3053.738,"body":"Unfortunately, then that leads"},{"startTime":3050.868,"endTime":3053.738,"body":"very quickly to measuring"},{"startTime":3053.778,"endTime":3054.788,"body":"teams across each other."},{"startTime":3055.058,"endTime":3058.478,"body":"They'll say, well, the PMO has to have"},{"startTime":3055.058,"endTime":3058.478,"body":"standards so they can support you."},{"startTime":3058.728,"endTime":3061.898,"body":"The reality is they're actually"},{"startTime":3058.728,"endTime":3061.898,"body":"your roadblocks right there."},{"startTime":3062.398,"endTime":3065.418,"body":"Because the team could figure out"},{"startTime":3062.398,"endTime":3065.418,"body":"a way around the org structure."},{"startTime":3065.828,"endTime":3068.678,"body":"Ultimately, you really need"},{"startTime":3065.828,"endTime":3068.678,"body":"to redesign the org, right?"},{"startTime":3068.898,"endTime":3071.718,"body":"But again, the teams have no"},{"startTime":3068.898,"endTime":3071.718,"body":"sway in this matter whatsoever."},{"startTime":3072.108,"endTime":3073.038,"body":"Not many people do."},{"startTime":3073.408,"endTime":3075.098,"body":"So org structure is real."},{"startTime":3075.348,"endTime":3077.758,"body":"The teams cannot get out of their own way."},{"startTime":3078.043,"endTime":3081.393,"body":"Individually as teams to deliver"},{"startTime":3078.043,"endTime":3081.393,"body":"successfully because they're"},{"startTime":3081.393,"endTime":3084.913,"body":"bound and hindered by the way"},{"startTime":3081.393,"endTime":3084.913,"body":"the organization is structured."},{"startTime":3085.413,"endTime":3088.683,"body":"So org design is a big part of"},{"startTime":3085.413,"endTime":3088.683,"body":"the equation here and it largely"},{"startTime":3088.683,"endTime":3092.023,"body":"is ignored because people just"},{"startTime":3088.683,"endTime":3092.023,"body":"say, well, I can't move city hall."},{"startTime":3092.033,"endTime":3093.173,"body":"I'm just going to do what I do."},{"startTime":3093.233,"endTime":3095.523,"body":"and the other thing that will"},{"startTime":3093.233,"endTime":3095.523,"body":"intersect with this is if you read any"},{"startTime":3095.543,"endTime":3097.123,"body":"developer forums about scrum masters."},{"startTime":3097.373,"endTime":3101.563,"body":"You will see almost a hundred percent"},{"startTime":3097.373,"endTime":3101.563,"body":"negative interactions because the"},{"startTime":3101.563,"endTime":3105.453,"body":"scrum masters they have on the teams"},{"startTime":3101.563,"endTime":3105.453,"body":"and it's not surprising that they're"},{"startTime":3105.463,"endTime":3109.803,"body":"in these command and control centric"},{"startTime":3105.463,"endTime":3109.803,"body":"organizations who've hired scrum masters."},{"startTime":3109.803,"endTime":3112.493,"body":"I don't really know why these"},{"startTime":3109.803,"endTime":3112.493,"body":"command and controls organizations."},{"startTime":3112.743,"endTime":3113.953,"body":"Have scrum masters in the first place."},{"startTime":3114.033,"endTime":3118.423,"body":"I do know  It's because the pmi, stuff"},{"startTime":3114.033,"endTime":3118.423,"body":"is not in vogue anymore The scrum master"},{"startTime":3118.423,"endTime":3123.003,"body":"stuff's in vogue, but they need someone"},{"startTime":3118.423,"endTime":3123.003,"body":"to be their eyes and ears Yes They're"},{"startTime":3123.003,"endTime":3127.613,"body":"spies  and a pmp certified project"},{"startTime":3123.003,"endTime":3127.613,"body":"manager is just very expensive compared"},{"startTime":3127.613,"endTime":3130.953,"body":"to a scrum master So we're gonna get"},{"startTime":3127.613,"endTime":3130.953,"body":"one of these people and throw them on"},{"startTime":3130.953,"endTime":3132.723,"body":"the team Yeah, there's a lot there."},{"startTime":3132.723,"endTime":3135.053,"body":"I mean a lot of companies"},{"startTime":3132.723,"endTime":3135.053,"body":"are trying to save money."},{"startTime":3135.153,"endTime":3139.673,"body":"Onshore person, a PMP, who's been"},{"startTime":3135.153,"endTime":3139.673,"body":"a project manager for a while, you"},{"startTime":3139.673,"endTime":3140.853,"body":"tell them to be a scrum master."},{"startTime":3140.863,"endTime":3144.073,"body":"They find it hard to fulfill the"},{"startTime":3140.863,"endTime":3144.073,"body":"duties of a scrum master because"},{"startTime":3144.323,"endTime":3148.963,"body":"they've been successful as a project"},{"startTime":3144.323,"endTime":3148.963,"body":"manager, largely following the"},{"startTime":3148.963,"endTime":3150.253,"body":"command and control methodology."},{"startTime":3150.623,"endTime":3152.373,"body":"Here's your work breakdown"},{"startTime":3150.623,"endTime":3152.373,"body":"structure, Brian."},{"startTime":3152.373,"endTime":3153.853,"body":"Get this done by next Thursday."},{"startTime":3154.353,"endTime":3155.593,"body":"They've never done the work, ever."},{"startTime":3155.778,"endTime":3157.558,"body":"They don't know if it can"},{"startTime":3155.778,"endTime":3157.558,"body":"be even done by Thursday."},{"startTime":3158.038,"endTime":3160.198,"body":"They're telling you what"},{"startTime":3158.038,"endTime":3160.198,"body":"to do, when to do it by."},{"startTime":3160.578,"endTime":3163.948,"body":"And then suddenly you're saying,"},{"startTime":3160.578,"endTime":3163.948,"body":"well, we don't really project managers"},{"startTime":3163.948,"endTime":3166.818,"body":"anymore because we're supposed"},{"startTime":3163.948,"endTime":3166.818,"body":"to be agile, in double quotes."},{"startTime":3167.108,"endTime":3170.298,"body":"So we will just simply relabel"},{"startTime":3167.108,"endTime":3170.298,"body":"these people as scrum masters."},{"startTime":3170.338,"endTime":3172.248,"body":"They're going to continue"},{"startTime":3170.338,"endTime":3172.248,"body":"doing what they did before."},{"startTime":3172.498,"endTime":3175.188,"body":"The other part of it is they'll"},{"startTime":3172.498,"endTime":3175.188,"body":"say, okay, these people are"},{"startTime":3175.188,"endTime":3176.868,"body":"expensive, so we'll let them go."},{"startTime":3177.233,"endTime":3180.783,"body":"And for one of those people who we let"},{"startTime":3177.233,"endTime":3180.783,"body":"go, we can get maybe two, potentially"},{"startTime":3180.783,"endTime":3183.153,"body":"even three scrum masters from offshore."},{"startTime":3183.403,"endTime":3186.843,"body":"Lo and behold, you get scrum masters"},{"startTime":3183.403,"endTime":3186.843,"body":"from offshore that are let's just say"},{"startTime":3186.843,"endTime":3188.843,"body":"not very well mature in their craft."},{"startTime":3189.043,"endTime":3191.543,"body":"So these people are what I"},{"startTime":3189.043,"endTime":3191.543,"body":"call textbook scrum masters."},{"startTime":3191.803,"endTime":3193.383,"body":"They will still follow"},{"startTime":3191.803,"endTime":3193.383,"body":"the three questions."},{"startTime":3193.878,"endTime":3198.558,"body":"They will do all of those things by the"},{"startTime":3193.878,"endTime":3198.558,"body":"book, they won't really protect the team."},{"startTime":3198.628,"endTime":3200.688,"body":"They won't really do the"},{"startTime":3198.628,"endTime":3200.688,"body":"things they should be doing."},{"startTime":3200.938,"endTime":3203.718,"body":"So the contrasting side of it"},{"startTime":3200.938,"endTime":3203.718,"body":"is interesting because I've just"},{"startTime":3203.718,"endTime":3207.018,"body":"recently seen that work very well"},{"startTime":3203.718,"endTime":3207.018,"body":"where the team actually says, We"},{"startTime":3207.018,"endTime":3209.748,"body":"didn't like the old scrum master,"},{"startTime":3207.018,"endTime":3209.748,"body":"but we like this new scrum master."},{"startTime":3209.828,"endTime":3213.708,"body":"And the reason is that scrum master"},{"startTime":3209.828,"endTime":3213.708,"body":"is asking all the right questions."},{"startTime":3214.058,"endTime":3216.138,"body":"They're sharing the"},{"startTime":3214.058,"endTime":3216.138,"body":"product roadmap with us."},{"startTime":3216.138,"endTime":3217.588,"body":"We didn't even know where that is."},{"startTime":3217.678,"endTime":3220.148,"body":"We don't know if we're going to be"},{"startTime":3217.678,"endTime":3220.148,"body":"here a quarter from now, but now"},{"startTime":3220.148,"endTime":3222.238,"body":"we can see on the roadmap, right?"},{"startTime":3222.598,"endTime":3223.678,"body":"If we're going to be here or not,"},{"startTime":3223.728,"endTime":3225.398,"body":"we can be a part of the discussion now."},{"startTime":3225.738,"endTime":3226.508,"body":"So I've seen."},{"startTime":3226.888,"endTime":3230.738,"body":"Teams turn around and say, this is great,"},{"startTime":3226.888,"endTime":3230.738,"body":"and they get behind that scrum master."},{"startTime":3231.088,"endTime":3234.078,"body":"These scrum masters that are"},{"startTime":3231.088,"endTime":3234.078,"body":"doing the textbook methodology."},{"startTime":3234.468,"endTime":3235.608,"body":"If they're late five minutes."},{"startTime":3236.088,"endTime":3237.728,"body":"The team just sits and waits, right?"},{"startTime":3237.788,"endTime":3241.608,"body":"As opposed to the other scrum master"},{"startTime":3237.788,"endTime":3241.608,"body":"who, well, after all, scrum masters are"},{"startTime":3241.608,"endTime":3245.158,"body":"optional for the daily sync but if they"},{"startTime":3241.608,"endTime":3245.158,"body":"don't show up, the team gets on with it."},{"startTime":3245.408,"endTime":3249.908,"body":"That shows that the scrum masters"},{"startTime":3245.408,"endTime":3249.908,"body":"had a hand to play in instilling"},{"startTime":3249.908,"endTime":3251.978,"body":"the culture of self organization,"},{"startTime":3251.988,"endTime":3255.108,"body":"so that goes a long way towards"},{"startTime":3251.988,"endTime":3255.108,"body":"getting the team on board."},{"startTime":3255.358,"endTime":3259.718,"body":"But then they get stuck at that whole"},{"startTime":3255.358,"endTime":3259.718,"body":"org design obstacle right there."},{"startTime":3259.968,"endTime":3262.958,"body":"Well kind of the last point that"},{"startTime":3259.968,"endTime":3262.958,"body":"we'll talk about and this one"},{"startTime":3262.958,"endTime":3267.088,"body":"will be quick, I swear that I"},{"startTime":3262.958,"endTime":3267.088,"body":"will hear is scrum slash agile."},{"startTime":3267.418,"endTime":3270.948,"body":"They'll say Agile doesn't handle"},{"startTime":3267.418,"endTime":3270.948,"body":"any dependencies, anything"},{"startTime":3270.948,"endTime":3271.998,"body":"that crosses team boundaries."},{"startTime":3272.248,"endTime":3273.038,"body":"It doesn't handle it."},{"startTime":3273.268,"endTime":3273.788,"body":"Yeah, so"},{"startTime":3273.848,"endTime":3277.488,"body":"Chaos breaks out when anything has"},{"startTime":3273.848,"endTime":3277.488,"body":"to cross teams all the marbles fall"},{"startTime":3277.488,"endTime":3280.988,"body":"out of the bag and this is especially"},{"startTime":3277.488,"endTime":3280.988,"body":"worse in regulated industries banks"},{"startTime":3280.988,"endTime":3285.618,"body":"stuff like that or more old school"},{"startTime":3280.988,"endTime":3285.618,"body":"type of industries where cross team"},{"startTime":3285.618,"endTime":3287.238,"body":"dependencies are a normal thing."},{"startTime":3287.548,"endTime":3290.218,"body":"And  people who make arguments"},{"startTime":3287.548,"endTime":3290.218,"body":"about this stuff will hold Google"},{"startTime":3290.218,"endTime":3293.248,"body":"up to be like, look, Google doesn't"},{"startTime":3290.218,"endTime":3293.248,"body":"have whatever good, first of all,"},{"startTime":3293.248,"endTime":3294.628,"body":"Google does have agile coaches."},{"startTime":3294.868,"endTime":3298.348,"body":"So a lot of people are just saying"},{"startTime":3294.868,"endTime":3298.348,"body":"stuff because they think that Google"},{"startTime":3298.348,"endTime":3301.838,"body":"does or doesn't without investigating,"},{"startTime":3298.348,"endTime":3301.838,"body":"putting that to the side for a second."},{"startTime":3302.088,"endTime":3306.798,"body":"Cross team work from what I've heard"},{"startTime":3302.088,"endTime":3306.798,"body":"from people that have worked at Google"},{"startTime":3307.208,"endTime":3312.358,"body":"is a nightmare teams own little systems"},{"startTime":3307.208,"endTime":3312.358,"body":"in order to figure out how to interact"},{"startTime":3312.358,"endTime":3315.408,"body":"with all the systems you need to"},{"startTime":3312.358,"endTime":3315.408,"body":"produce a functioning application at"},{"startTime":3315.408,"endTime":3317.478,"body":"the end of it is an absolute nightmare"},{"startTime":3317.788,"endTime":3322.458,"body":"with their web of software and to their"},{"startTime":3317.788,"endTime":3322.458,"body":"web of interconnected software products"},{"startTime":3322.508,"endTime":3326.468,"body":"to make matters worse in order to get"},{"startTime":3322.508,"endTime":3326.468,"body":"promoted at Google, like taking something"},{"startTime":3326.468,"endTime":3329.598,"body":"that is existing and just renaming it and"},{"startTime":3326.468,"endTime":3329.598,"body":"putting in a different place and changing"},{"startTime":3329.598,"endTime":3334.613,"body":"the UI slightly is like a well known"},{"startTime":3329.598,"endTime":3334.613,"body":"Thing to get your, name and application"},{"startTime":3334.623,"endTime":3337.933,"body":"in like the catalog, whatever it is that"},{"startTime":3334.623,"endTime":3337.933,"body":"Google has, it like lets you know like,"},{"startTime":3337.933,"endTime":3339.633,"body":"Oh, congratulations to this person."},{"startTime":3339.633,"endTime":3341.403,"body":"They came up with this new product."},{"startTime":3341.403,"endTime":3345.563,"body":"So like they'll say scrum doesn't"},{"startTime":3341.403,"endTime":3345.563,"body":"handle dependencies well, and"},{"startTime":3345.563,"endTime":3349.183,"body":"therefore is like not good, you"},{"startTime":3345.563,"endTime":3349.183,"body":"know doing anything across teams."},{"startTime":3349.663,"endTime":3352.773,"body":"Is not handled well like everybody"},{"startTime":3349.663,"endTime":3352.773,"body":"like scaling There's so many different"},{"startTime":3352.773,"endTime":3355.533,"body":"scaling methodologies have cropped up"},{"startTime":3352.773,"endTime":3355.533,"body":"to try to solve this problem And they"},{"startTime":3355.533,"endTime":3359.563,"body":"all kind of miss the point a little bit"},{"startTime":3355.533,"endTime":3359.563,"body":"and miss the mark a little bit Yeah, and"},{"startTime":3359.563,"endTime":3361.733,"body":"they'll use that to kind of accuse I mean"},{"startTime":3361.983,"endTime":3365.613,"body":"again It's just the fundamentals"},{"startTime":3361.983,"endTime":3365.613,"body":"gone bad or not done."},{"startTime":3365.613,"endTime":3369.353,"body":"Let's stick to scrum because I already"},{"startTime":3365.613,"endTime":3369.353,"body":"have an arguing point for this one"},{"startTime":3369.353,"endTime":3373.083,"body":"with Agile, which is why is your"},{"startTime":3369.353,"endTime":3373.083,"body":"organization so big in the first place"},{"startTime":3373.353,"endTime":3378.323,"body":"that you didn't respond, you didn't"},{"startTime":3373.353,"endTime":3378.323,"body":"respond to say like who, who can talk"},{"startTime":3378.323,"endTime":3379.603,"body":"to each other on a regular basis."},{"startTime":3379.633,"endTime":3386.273,"body":"And if you can't, I need to separate"},{"startTime":3379.633,"endTime":3386.273,"body":"hierarchy reporting structure, like the"},{"startTime":3386.333,"endTime":3391.023,"body":"hiring structure, software structures,"},{"startTime":3386.333,"endTime":3391.023,"body":"all that needs to be separated."},{"startTime":3391.363,"endTime":3395.083,"body":"If coordinating is so difficult Someone"},{"startTime":3391.363,"endTime":3395.083,"body":"needs to fix that by like building a wall"},{"startTime":3395.083,"endTime":3399.323,"body":"between the i'm not i'm not saying build"},{"startTime":3395.083,"endTime":3399.323,"body":"silos  with that 150 person dunbar number."},{"startTime":3399.533,"endTime":3405.363,"body":"Yeah, you need to say like this is about"},{"startTime":3399.533,"endTime":3405.363,"body":"the max my system can be and Like the"},{"startTime":3405.363,"endTime":3407.153,"body":"original,  Jeffrey Bezos at Amazon."},{"startTime":3407.363,"endTime":3407.623,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":3407.623,"endTime":3408.973,"body":"I can't not do Jeffrey Bezos."},{"startTime":3409.023,"endTime":3409.723,"body":"Sorry, Curtis."},{"startTime":3409.773,"endTime":3413.913,"body":"Why he was like don't talk to other teams,"},{"startTime":3409.773,"endTime":3413.913,"body":"have it talk to their APIs and they should"},{"startTime":3413.923,"endTime":3416.793,"body":"be self documented and you should be, then"},{"startTime":3413.923,"endTime":3416.793,"body":"it should be clear enough and if they're"},{"startTime":3416.793,"endTime":3420.383,"body":"not clear, open a bug on the API that says"},{"startTime":3416.793,"endTime":3420.383,"body":"you need to make on the documentation, the"},{"startTime":3420.383,"endTime":3422.063,"body":"API says you need to make this more clear."},{"startTime":3422.313,"endTime":3423.823,"body":"And like, that would be the way."},{"startTime":3424.143,"endTime":3427.773,"body":"You know, and then if an API doesn't"},{"startTime":3424.143,"endTime":3427.773,"body":"do what you need, now you've got a"},{"startTime":3427.913,"endTime":3431.133,"body":"product manager to product manager"},{"startTime":3427.913,"endTime":3431.133,"body":"problem, which is clearly like, it's"},{"startTime":3431.133,"endTime":3433.943,"body":"just a stakeholder approaching so"},{"startTime":3431.133,"endTime":3433.943,"body":"that there are ways to deal with this,"},{"startTime":3433.943,"endTime":3436.903,"body":"where you segment the organization"},{"startTime":3433.943,"endTime":3436.903,"body":"and you divide and you segment and"},{"startTime":3436.903,"endTime":3442.378,"body":"divide and you'll say, Well Om!,"},{"startTime":3436.903,"endTime":3442.378,"body":"doesn't that lead to a incomprehensible"},{"startTime":3442.468,"endTime":3445.548,"body":"massive web of, or yeah, over time."},{"startTime":3445.558,"endTime":3446.068,"body":"Yeah, it does."},{"startTime":3446.068,"endTime":3446.678,"body":"It sure does."},{"startTime":3446.678,"endTime":3449.518,"body":"And let's say it's constantly"},{"startTime":3446.678,"endTime":3449.518,"body":"being refactored as the,"},{"startTime":3449.578,"endTime":3450.728,"body":"as an org design, right?"},{"startTime":3451.058,"endTime":3453.648,"body":"Not a lot of organizations"},{"startTime":3451.058,"endTime":3453.648,"body":"do this because it's hard."},{"startTime":3453.678,"endTime":3454.248,"body":"It's hard."},{"startTime":3454.438,"endTime":3455.088,"body":"It is hard."},{"startTime":3455.098,"endTime":3457.788,"body":"It requires commitment from up on high."},{"startTime":3458.248,"endTime":3461.108,"body":"And oftentimes they do not like change."},{"startTime":3461.168,"endTime":3464.188,"body":"They want this feeling"},{"startTime":3461.168,"endTime":3464.188,"body":"of constancy, right?"},{"startTime":3464.188,"endTime":3465.143,"body":"This is what we have."},{"startTime":3465.333,"endTime":3466.233,"body":"This is how we work."},{"startTime":3466.483,"endTime":3469.923,"body":"The reality on the ground is we"},{"startTime":3466.483,"endTime":3469.923,"body":"need to change all that stuff up."},{"startTime":3470.003,"endTime":3471.383,"body":"We need to change the way we work."},{"startTime":3471.463,"endTime":3474.923,"body":"I'm glad that we're ending this"},{"startTime":3471.463,"endTime":3474.923,"body":"podcast talking about management."},{"startTime":3475.073,"endTime":3478.003,"body":"We should be talking about leadership,"},{"startTime":3475.073,"endTime":3478.003,"body":"but we're ending the podcast talking about"},{"startTime":3478.003,"endTime":3481.413,"body":"management because  if you work at a place"},{"startTime":3478.003,"endTime":3481.413,"body":"where you have any of the problems that we"},{"startTime":3481.443,"endTime":3483.583,"body":"outlined, go listen to our Deming podcast."},{"startTime":3483.833,"endTime":3485.413,"body":"And listen the whole thing  trust me."},{"startTime":3485.433,"endTime":3486.073,"body":"It's two hours."},{"startTime":3486.173,"endTime":3487.103,"body":"Well spent of your life."},{"startTime":3487.103,"endTime":3490.883,"body":"Absolutely So yeah, because deming"},{"startTime":3487.103,"endTime":3490.883,"body":"says only management can change the"},{"startTime":3490.883,"endTime":3496.813,"body":"system and 90 94 of the problems in"},{"startTime":3490.883,"endTime":3496.813,"body":"a workplace can be attributed to the"},{"startTime":3496.813,"endTime":3501.888,"body":"system Yes, which only management can"},{"startTime":3496.813,"endTime":3501.888,"body":"solve and only six percent To the people."},{"startTime":3501.898,"endTime":3503.818,"body":"That's a really good"},{"startTime":3501.898,"endTime":3503.818,"body":"investment of your time."},{"startTime":3503.818,"endTime":3505.078,"body":"So go watch that podcast."},{"startTime":3505.408,"endTime":3509.558,"body":"And keep that resume updated and let"},{"startTime":3505.408,"endTime":3509.558,"body":"us know down below what your thoughts"},{"startTime":3509.558,"endTime":3514.028,"body":"are on this podcast, plus topics and"},{"startTime":3509.558,"endTime":3514.028,"body":"suggestions for other podcasts and"},{"startTime":3514.028,"endTime":3515.548,"body":"don't forget to like, and subscribe."}]}