{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":2.929,"body":"I threw out a zinger the other"},{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":2.929,"body":"day to some product managers."},{"startTime":3.28,"endTime":8.47,"body":"In the arms race of domain expertise"},{"startTime":3.28,"endTime":8.47,"body":"versus product management skill, when"},{"startTime":8.47,"endTime":10.199,"body":"you're looking for the right mix."},{"startTime":10.499,"endTime":15.059,"body":"how long ago was your domain expertise,"},{"startTime":10.499,"endTime":15.059,"body":"was it from 10 years ago and you haven't"},{"startTime":15.059,"endTime":16.969,"body":"worked in that field for a decade?"},{"startTime":17.129,"endTime":20.259,"body":"Was it five years ago in the AI ML field."},{"startTime":20.259,"endTime":21.869,"body":"And now everything is."},{"startTime":22.184,"endTime":26.645,"body":"Gone bananas since then or was it in"},{"startTime":22.184,"endTime":26.645,"body":"one of these industries that, that the,"},{"startTime":26.675,"endTime":29.194,"body":"the, the pace of change is much slower."},{"startTime":29.494,"endTime":33.124,"body":"So that kind of sparked an entire debate"},{"startTime":29.494,"endTime":33.124,"body":"then they kicked me out and said, no"},{"startTime":33.124,"endTime":34.704,"body":"more for you, Brian, oh my goodness."},{"startTime":38.517,"endTime":42.857,"body":"I've had a conversation similar to"},{"startTime":38.517,"endTime":42.857,"body":"this some time ago with a domain that."},{"startTime":42.908,"endTime":46.702,"body":"There are a lot of people"},{"startTime":42.908,"endTime":46.702,"body":"that have moved very slowly."},{"startTime":46.702,"endTime":48.427,"body":"We're talking about industrial equipment."},{"startTime":48.427,"endTime":52.537,"body":"The likes of you know, Caterpillar"},{"startTime":48.427,"endTime":52.537,"body":"or Fujitsu make, right?"},{"startTime":52.667,"endTime":56.657,"body":"Huge, Machines, but not a"},{"startTime":52.667,"endTime":56.657,"body":"whole lot of innovation, Well,"},{"startTime":56.807,"endTime":57.727,"body":"that was a few years ago."},{"startTime":57.847,"endTime":59.387,"body":"Micro, micro innovation."},{"startTime":59.787,"endTime":62.487,"body":"There's lots of micro innovations,"},{"startTime":59.787,"endTime":62.487,"body":"but they're not visible to the eye."},{"startTime":62.867,"endTime":66.077,"body":"you could argue, do they add"},{"startTime":62.867,"endTime":66.077,"body":"significantly to the bottom line?"},{"startTime":66.197,"endTime":67.137,"body":"this is a great zinger."},{"startTime":67.137,"endTime":68.597,"body":"I think this is worth digging into."},{"startTime":68.597,"endTime":71.337,"body":"So we're going to do that today"},{"startTime":68.597,"endTime":71.337,"body":"when I try and figure out if"},{"startTime":71.637,"endTime":73.007,"body":"you should be focusing on."},{"startTime":73.352,"endTime":78.992,"body":"Domain expertise or core PM"},{"startTime":73.352,"endTime":78.992,"body":"skills or some sort of a balance"},{"startTime":79.002,"endTime":81.822,"body":"in between, obviously everyone's"},{"startTime":79.002,"endTime":81.822,"body":"going to say , you need to balance."},{"startTime":81.832,"endTime":82.642,"body":"It depends."},{"startTime":82.642,"endTime":83.532,"body":"Hit the music."},{"startTime":83.532,"endTime":84.812,"body":"Like we're done podcast over."},{"startTime":85.772,"endTime":88.432,"body":"People would say that, but if you've"},{"startTime":85.772,"endTime":88.432,"body":"started to look for those kinds"},{"startTime":88.432,"endTime":92.272,"body":"of skill sets, you would know it's"},{"startTime":88.432,"endTime":92.272,"body":"hard to find that it's very hard."},{"startTime":92.662,"endTime":95.962,"body":"it's especially if you're in one"},{"startTime":92.662,"endTime":95.962,"body":"of these companies where the folks"},{"startTime":95.962,"endTime":97.632,"body":"running the company think that you're."},{"startTime":97.722,"endTime":98.772,"body":"Very unique."},{"startTime":98.782,"endTime":101.962,"body":"And there's absolutely nobody in the"},{"startTime":98.782,"endTime":101.962,"body":"world that does exactly what you do."},{"startTime":102.262,"endTime":103.572,"body":"I'm looking at you open AI."},{"startTime":103.872,"endTime":104.992,"body":"We're so unique."},{"startTime":105.012,"endTime":106.682,"body":"Nobody can copy our like"},{"startTime":106.692,"endTime":109.322,"body":"and You're trying to hire somebody that"},{"startTime":106.692,"endTime":109.322,"body":"knows what they're doing in product"},{"startTime":109.342,"endTime":111.912,"body":"management and has worked in the field."},{"startTime":112.292,"endTime":116.692,"body":"To serve the customers that your business"},{"startTime":112.292,"endTime":116.692,"body":"and software serve and you come from that"},{"startTime":116.692,"endTime":122.122,"body":"field and you have product management"},{"startTime":116.692,"endTime":122.122,"body":"expertise and also like you'll watch my"},{"startTime":122.122,"endTime":124.392,"body":"car build my house and fix my drains."},{"startTime":124.432,"endTime":126.562,"body":"Cause you now have unique"},{"startTime":124.432,"endTime":126.562,"body":"tools as well, right?"},{"startTime":126.682,"endTime":130.082,"body":"I'd like to say something"},{"startTime":126.682,"endTime":130.082,"body":"here about what can we acquire"},{"startTime":130.152,"endTime":132.902,"body":"having been installed in a row."},{"startTime":133.092,"endTime":137.652,"body":"if you're a product manager who's been"},{"startTime":133.092,"endTime":137.652,"body":"doing product management activities,"},{"startTime":137.902,"endTime":142.292,"body":"you've been playing the role in some"},{"startTime":137.902,"endTime":142.292,"body":"industry somewhere, And now you're"},{"startTime":142.292,"endTime":144.002,"body":"in a different domain altogether."},{"startTime":144.302,"endTime":147.032,"body":"is that person more likely"},{"startTime":144.302,"endTime":147.032,"body":"to be a product manager?"},{"startTime":147.382,"endTime":151.812,"body":"Able to be trained and be successful"},{"startTime":147.382,"endTime":151.812,"body":"versus the other way around right"},{"startTime":151.812,"endTime":154.792,"body":"where you come deeply from the"},{"startTime":151.812,"endTime":154.792,"body":"domain Yes, you haven't got a"},{"startTime":154.792,"endTime":155.912,"body":"clue about product management."},{"startTime":156.162,"endTime":156.832,"body":"Can you teach?"},{"startTime":157.257,"endTime":160.667,"body":"Product management skills to"},{"startTime":157.257,"endTime":160.667,"body":"that person those are the choices"},{"startTime":160.667,"endTime":162.037,"body":"we often end up having to make."},{"startTime":162.037,"endTime":167.377,"body":"I think a typical choice that most"},{"startTime":162.037,"endTime":167.377,"body":"hiring managers and companies in this"},{"startTime":167.407,"endTime":171.947,"body":"position will make is they will get"},{"startTime":167.407,"endTime":171.947,"body":"the person with the industry expertise."},{"startTime":172.387,"endTime":175.617,"body":"They will opt for the person who"},{"startTime":172.387,"endTime":175.617,"body":"has been working in the industry,"},{"startTime":175.917,"endTime":178.387,"body":"pluck them out of the industry"},{"startTime":175.917,"endTime":178.387,"body":"and say, you're a product manager."},{"startTime":178.387,"endTime":180.767,"body":"Now, pat him on the head and"},{"startTime":178.387,"endTime":180.767,"body":"be like, get out there, kid."},{"startTime":181.117,"endTime":181.927,"body":"You got this."},{"startTime":182.367,"endTime":183.617,"body":"I think that's the most common."},{"startTime":183.647,"endTime":185.367,"body":"The other thing they might do is just say."},{"startTime":185.667,"endTime":187.137,"body":"What do you mean you don't"},{"startTime":185.667,"endTime":187.137,"body":"know about product management?"},{"startTime":187.437,"endTime":188.837,"body":"Go take a class and that's it."},{"startTime":189.377,"endTime":192.54,"body":"Ooh, that wasn't even on my list"},{"startTime":189.377,"endTime":192.54,"body":"of things we wrote down of like,"},{"startTime":192.54,"endTime":196.177,"body":"just go get a cert and you're"},{"startTime":192.54,"endTime":196.177,"body":"you're in kid, you're in the game."},{"startTime":196.377,"endTime":199.437,"body":"And it's not just that field,"},{"startTime":196.377,"endTime":199.437,"body":"but you know, we've seen that."},{"startTime":199.477,"endTime":200.557,"body":"We've seen that a lot."},{"startTime":200.727,"endTime":204.917,"body":"I don't think I've ever seen it the"},{"startTime":200.727,"endTime":204.917,"body":"other way where People have come"},{"startTime":204.917,"endTime":207.187,"body":"in and knew into a domain, right?"},{"startTime":207.187,"endTime":208.537,"body":"But they've, they know what they're doing."},{"startTime":208.597,"endTime":214.117,"body":"Vis-a-vis product manager and they've"},{"startTime":208.597,"endTime":214.117,"body":"been supported for the domain, like with"},{"startTime":214.117,"endTime":216.177,"body":"sidekicks or whatever, however you do it."},{"startTime":216.287,"endTime":218.087,"body":"I haven't seen that much at all."},{"startTime":218.417,"endTime":221.627,"body":"I want to do , a little arguing"},{"startTime":218.417,"endTime":221.627,"body":"agile return to form back and forth."},{"startTime":221.987,"endTime":223.317,"body":"Highlighting some of the considerations."},{"startTime":223.357,"endTime":226.717,"body":"If we're going to be fair and equal about"},{"startTime":223.357,"endTime":226.717,"body":"this and not just say the company is going"},{"startTime":226.717,"endTime":231.667,"body":"to try like lifting people in a field"},{"startTime":226.717,"endTime":231.667,"body":"where they get paid very little money and"},{"startTime":231.667,"endTime":234.957,"body":"then dropping them in a product management"},{"startTime":231.667,"endTime":234.957,"body":"so you can pay at the lower end of the"},{"startTime":234.957,"endTime":239.217,"body":"product management scale is a business"},{"startTime":234.957,"endTime":239.217,"body":"tactic, it's the old  boiler room?"},{"startTime":239.227,"endTime":241.347,"body":"Is that the stock market movie?"},{"startTime":241.397,"endTime":244.035,"body":"Before we get started,"},{"startTime":241.397,"endTime":244.035,"body":"I have one question."},{"startTime":244.035,"endTime":246.672,"body":"Is anyone here past the series seven exam?"},{"startTime":246.672,"endTime":248.65,"body":"I have a series seven license."},{"startTime":248.65,"endTime":249.639,"body":"Good for you."},{"startTime":249.639,"endTime":251.618,"body":"You can get up to it."},{"startTime":251.618,"endTime":251.947,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":251.947,"endTime":253.057,"body":"We don't hire brokers here."},{"startTime":253.057,"endTime":253.547,"body":"We train new ones."},{"startTime":254.027,"endTime":254.457,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":254.567,"endTime":255.877,"body":"We don't hire product managers here."},{"startTime":255.877,"endTime":256.847,"body":"We train new ones."},{"startTime":257.107,"endTime":258.047,"body":"That's exactly what I was thinking."},{"startTime":258.047,"endTime":260.177,"body":"I like having Ben Affleck"},{"startTime":258.047,"endTime":260.177,"body":"open the other tab to give me"},{"startTime":260.187,"endTime":261.767,"body":", inspirational yet questionable."},{"startTime":261.777,"endTime":265.357,"body":"Cause the whole point of that movie"},{"startTime":261.777,"endTime":265.357,"body":"was, everyone was like cheating the"},{"startTime":265.357,"endTime":266.907,"body":"system and went to jail or whatever."},{"startTime":266.907,"endTime":269.727,"body":"And yeah, we don't hire"},{"startTime":266.907,"endTime":269.727,"body":"traders, we train them."},{"startTime":269.727,"endTime":270.447,"body":"This is the same thing."},{"startTime":270.447,"endTime":272.367,"body":"It's like, Hey, we're"},{"startTime":270.447,"endTime":272.367,"body":"going to hire you kids."},{"startTime":272.667,"endTime":275.407,"body":"we don't want any professionals"},{"startTime":272.667,"endTime":275.407,"body":"because, like in the movie, they wanted"},{"startTime":275.407,"endTime":277.077,"body":"to have the spoiler for boiler room."},{"startTime":277.127,"endTime":280.347,"body":"They all went to jail because they were"},{"startTime":277.127,"endTime":280.347,"body":"all like hey, just do what I say, that's"},{"startTime":280.347,"endTime":283.617,"body":"the kind of people they wanted I don't"},{"startTime":280.347,"endTime":283.617,"body":"want to focus on that in this podcast."},{"startTime":283.687,"endTime":286.957,"body":"Although that is a very regular thing"},{"startTime":283.687,"endTime":286.957,"body":"in product management, people are just"},{"startTime":286.957,"endTime":290.317,"body":"happy to break in this hot new field"},{"startTime":286.957,"endTime":290.317,"body":"but yeah, I want to  get back to the"},{"startTime":290.317,"endTime":293.777,"body":"normal format of arguing agile to"},{"startTime":290.317,"endTime":293.777,"body":"go through some of these categories."},{"startTime":293.997,"endTime":295.227,"body":"All right, let's keep going."},{"startTime":295.317,"endTime":295.677,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":295.927,"endTime":298.997,"body":"If we're talking about product"},{"startTime":295.927,"endTime":298.997,"body":"management and we're talking"},{"startTime":298.997,"endTime":300.467,"body":"about whether I should hire."},{"startTime":300.882,"endTime":303.762,"body":"A experienced product manager versus"},{"startTime":300.882,"endTime":303.762,"body":"a domain expert and kind of train"},{"startTime":303.762,"endTime":307.552,"body":"them up, I'm looking for , more of"},{"startTime":303.762,"endTime":307.552,"body":"one category than the other category."},{"startTime":307.552,"endTime":308.492,"body":"I guess that's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":308.752,"endTime":311.842,"body":"It doesn't have to be like, they've never"},{"startTime":308.752,"endTime":311.842,"body":"been a product manager before at all."},{"startTime":312.062,"endTime":314.322,"body":"It's just, they have more of"},{"startTime":312.062,"endTime":314.322,"body":"one than the other, right?"},{"startTime":314.342,"endTime":317.722,"body":"Yeah, but these are rare breed people,"},{"startTime":314.342,"endTime":317.722,"body":"They're not that common out there."},{"startTime":318.162,"endTime":320.132,"body":"I guess I will tell you from"},{"startTime":318.162,"endTime":320.132,"body":"my own experience, usually"},{"startTime":320.132,"endTime":321.222,"body":"what you're looking at is."},{"startTime":321.562,"endTime":324.742,"body":"I guess even though I said it, I"},{"startTime":321.562,"endTime":324.742,"body":"was like, Hey, it's not every case"},{"startTime":324.752,"endTime":329.382,"body":"where  you have somebody brand new to"},{"startTime":324.752,"endTime":329.382,"body":"the domain or brand new to product."},{"startTime":329.672,"endTime":332.632,"body":"But  hiring product managers,"},{"startTime":329.672,"endTime":332.632,"body":"that is my experience they"},{"startTime":332.632,"endTime":333.782,"body":"either have one or the other."},{"startTime":333.792,"endTime":334.092,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":334.372,"endTime":334.552,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":334.942,"endTime":337.322,"body":"All right,  let's talk about the"},{"startTime":334.942,"endTime":337.322,"body":"first thing that I want to talk"},{"startTime":337.322,"endTime":339.872,"body":"about when I talk product management,"},{"startTime":337.322,"endTime":339.872,"body":"let's talk about business impact."},{"startTime":339.872,"endTime":340.232,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":340.462,"endTime":341.722,"body":"So I'm a PM."},{"startTime":342.022,"endTime":345.432,"body":"I'm making a case to you, Om, the"},{"startTime":342.022,"endTime":345.432,"body":"VP of product management, chief"},{"startTime":345.442,"endTime":346.562,"body":"product officer at the company."},{"startTime":346.582,"endTime":348.612,"body":"You're the person responsible"},{"startTime":346.582,"endTime":348.612,"body":"for hiring product managers."},{"startTime":349.022,"endTime":349.842,"body":"I want to make a case to you."},{"startTime":349.892,"endTime":352.562,"body":"We want to hire somebody with"},{"startTime":349.892,"endTime":352.562,"body":"product management skills and"},{"startTime":352.562,"endTime":353.432,"body":"they can learn the domain."},{"startTime":353.717,"endTime":359.627,"body":"My point is that a strong PM knows how"},{"startTime":353.717,"endTime":359.627,"body":"to identify and drive business value"},{"startTime":360.097,"endTime":365.127,"body":"regardless of whatever specific industry"},{"startTime":360.097,"endTime":365.127,"body":"or KPIs that are specific to the industry."},{"startTime":365.497,"endTime":367.977,"body":"I'm trying to think of a KPI that"},{"startTime":365.497,"endTime":367.977,"body":"would be specific to the industry,"},{"startTime":368.277,"endTime":372.352,"body":"like niche topics that are specific"},{"startTime":368.277,"endTime":372.352,"body":"to that industry a PM worth their"},{"startTime":372.352,"endTime":375.902,"body":"salt will have the ability to"},{"startTime":372.352,"endTime":375.902,"body":"figure out what makes an impact."},{"startTime":376.342,"endTime":380.452,"body":"Whereas someone from the industry,"},{"startTime":376.342,"endTime":380.452,"body":"I started not agreeing with what"},{"startTime":380.452,"endTime":382.992,"body":"I was saying as I was saying"},{"startTime":380.452,"endTime":382.992,"body":"it, I know it's hard to do this."},{"startTime":383.292,"endTime":387.482,"body":"I still believe that domain"},{"startTime":383.292,"endTime":387.482,"body":"knowledge trumps PM skills."},{"startTime":387.532,"endTime":390.757,"body":"Here's why PM skills are transferable."},{"startTime":390.757,"endTime":395.977,"body":"you could work in food and beverage"},{"startTime":390.757,"endTime":395.977,"body":"have solid PM skills and apply"},{"startTime":396.087,"endTime":398.417,"body":"those principles in another domain."},{"startTime":398.667,"endTime":402.707,"body":"But if you don't have domain depth, You"},{"startTime":398.667,"endTime":402.707,"body":"don't know who your real competitors are"},{"startTime":402.707,"endTime":406.437,"body":"you don't know, you know what your mo"},{"startTime":402.707,"endTime":406.437,"body":"is why you're there What do you bring to"},{"startTime":406.437,"endTime":408.217,"body":"the table your competitive advantages?"},{"startTime":408.517,"endTime":412.117,"body":"That's hard so that's the other side of"},{"startTime":408.517,"endTime":412.117,"body":"the argument can you learn pm skills?"},{"startTime":412.547,"endTime":413.127,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":413.237,"endTime":417.847,"body":"not just by attending a class I I'm always"},{"startTime":413.237,"endTime":417.847,"body":"in the past podcast, I've always have"},{"startTime":417.847,"endTime":419.807,"body":"a big believer in the journeyman model."},{"startTime":419.807,"endTime":420.637,"body":"Maybe that's what you do."},{"startTime":420.987,"endTime":424.377,"body":"You know you have, you have"},{"startTime":420.987,"endTime":424.377,"body":"depth in the domain, but you"},{"startTime":424.377,"endTime":426.447,"body":"don't have skills on the PM side."},{"startTime":426.727,"endTime":429.437,"body":"So work with a PM and learn those."},{"startTime":429.537,"endTime":433.287,"body":"Somebody from the industry is going to"},{"startTime":429.537,"endTime":433.287,"body":"know where the big pain points are and"},{"startTime":433.287,"endTime":435.407,"body":"where you can make impact immediately."},{"startTime":435.437,"endTime":436.627,"body":"They'll, they'll immediately know."},{"startTime":436.987,"endTime":440.547,"body":"It'll be part of their"},{"startTime":436.987,"endTime":440.547,"body":"product sense right away."},{"startTime":440.847,"endTime":444.337,"body":"Over time, as you solve the low"},{"startTime":440.847,"endTime":444.337,"body":"hanging fruit, I love saying low"},{"startTime":444.337,"endTime":447.397,"body":"hanging fruit things get deeper"},{"startTime":444.337,"endTime":447.397,"body":"and more complex in the industry."},{"startTime":447.557,"endTime":449.997,"body":"Restaurant management is a great"},{"startTime":447.557,"endTime":449.997,"body":"example because I happen to know"},{"startTime":449.997,"endTime":451.337,"body":"something about that as a PM."},{"startTime":451.627,"endTime":456.117,"body":"You can only sell so much with regard to"},{"startTime":451.627,"endTime":456.117,"body":"managing the assets in the restaurant,"},{"startTime":456.417,"endTime":459.377,"body":"and then there's the people, and then"},{"startTime":456.417,"endTime":459.377,"body":"there's the back end finance, and"},{"startTime":459.377,"endTime":461.167,"body":"then there's the chain management."},{"startTime":461.177,"endTime":462.707,"body":"The finance is multiple stores."},{"startTime":462.877,"endTime":467.867,"body":"So you very quickly could solve all of"},{"startTime":462.877,"endTime":467.867,"body":"the pain points where those big swings"},{"startTime":467.877,"endTime":470.707,"body":"of bringing in revenue slow to a halt."},{"startTime":470.757,"endTime":473.477,"body":"So you could solve all the low"},{"startTime":470.757,"endTime":473.477,"body":"hanging problems, all the immediately"},{"startTime":473.497,"endTime":477.817,"body":"painful problems, and then be left"},{"startTime":473.497,"endTime":477.817,"body":"with deeper systemic problems."},{"startTime":478.187,"endTime":479.437,"body":"That you don't know how to solve."},{"startTime":479.737,"endTime":483.737,"body":"That a product manager, because"},{"startTime":479.737,"endTime":483.737,"body":"they're used to basically going from"},{"startTime":483.747,"endTime":487.847,"body":"A to B to C, like continually rooting"},{"startTime":483.747,"endTime":487.847,"body":"for deeper and deeper problems, like"},{"startTime":487.937,"endTime":491.337,"body":"this is just the normal reflex, this"},{"startTime":487.937,"endTime":491.337,"body":"is the normal muscle they built up."},{"startTime":491.637,"endTime":495.357,"body":"That you would have to teach somebody"},{"startTime":491.637,"endTime":495.357,"body":"who is an industry expert to continually"},{"startTime":495.357,"endTime":496.997,"body":"be digging toward the problem."},{"startTime":497.247,"endTime":501.017,"body":"Because you come from the industry,"},{"startTime":497.247,"endTime":501.017,"body":"you most likely already have opinions"},{"startTime":501.017,"endTime":502.357,"body":"about what needs to be solved."},{"startTime":502.697,"endTime":506.057,"body":"So there may be less digging,"},{"startTime":502.697,"endTime":506.057,"body":"which could be a benefit."},{"startTime":506.057,"endTime":508.777,"body":"It could be a benefit to say"},{"startTime":506.057,"endTime":508.777,"body":"we need to get to work quickly."},{"startTime":509.177,"endTime":511.837,"body":"This domain expert knows how"},{"startTime":509.177,"endTime":511.837,"body":"to get us running quickly."},{"startTime":511.917,"endTime":513.687,"body":"Just hire somebody, get them"},{"startTime":511.917,"endTime":513.687,"body":"in here running quickly."},{"startTime":514.037,"endTime":517.207,"body":"However, again, how long you're"},{"startTime":514.037,"endTime":517.207,"body":"going to do that for six months"},{"startTime":517.207,"endTime":518.147,"body":"and then you run out of problems?"},{"startTime":518.297,"endTime":522.447,"body":"Two years until you run, there's an"},{"startTime":518.297,"endTime":522.447,"body":"airstrip and eventually you will run out"},{"startTime":522.447,"endTime":524.197,"body":"of airstrip to launch your plane from."},{"startTime":524.237,"endTime":525.627,"body":"Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that."},{"startTime":525.627,"endTime":529.157,"body":"you don't just pick up somebody"},{"startTime":525.627,"endTime":529.157,"body":"who is entrenched in the domain"},{"startTime":529.177,"endTime":530.537,"body":"and then push them through a class."},{"startTime":530.967,"endTime":533.837,"body":"That's too short term,"},{"startTime":530.967,"endTime":533.837,"body":"that's not going to work."},{"startTime":533.887,"endTime":536.597,"body":"Because Now you're focusing"},{"startTime":533.887,"endTime":536.597,"body":"on the mechanicals, right?"},{"startTime":536.847,"endTime":540.587,"body":"The product management with an uppercase"},{"startTime":536.847,"endTime":540.587,"body":"P. So I'm using the Agile analogy."},{"startTime":540.987,"endTime":545.687,"body":"But to your point, would a"},{"startTime":540.987,"endTime":545.687,"body":"domain expert run out of things"},{"startTime":545.687,"endTime":546.587,"body":"that they're digging into?"},{"startTime":547.047,"endTime":547.867,"body":"Would they do that?"},{"startTime":547.927,"endTime":549.567,"body":"Because they're domain experts, right?"},{"startTime":549.567,"endTime":551.967,"body":"over time, they've built"},{"startTime":549.567,"endTime":551.967,"body":"up this knowledge base."},{"startTime":552.407,"endTime":555.617,"body":"And if they're working with somebody"},{"startTime":552.407,"endTime":555.617,"body":"who can help them On the tactical"},{"startTime":555.617,"endTime":560.077,"body":"aspects of product management,"},{"startTime":555.617,"endTime":560.077,"body":"that might be a formidable duo."},{"startTime":560.377,"endTime":563.017,"body":"I think that might actually"},{"startTime":560.377,"endTime":563.017,"body":"work in certain domains."},{"startTime":563.077,"endTime":564.437,"body":"I agree with you."},{"startTime":564.932,"endTime":569.562,"body":"If we're running from the perspective"},{"startTime":564.932,"endTime":569.562,"body":"of the Deming podcast, where we say the"},{"startTime":569.562,"endTime":573.312,"body":"modern managers, the coach, they should"},{"startTime":569.562,"endTime":573.312,"body":"be an expert in product management."},{"startTime":573.332,"endTime":577.052,"body":"They should be helping you continually"},{"startTime":573.332,"endTime":577.052,"body":"coach continually get up to speed"},{"startTime":577.052,"endTime":580.002,"body":"on product management practices and"},{"startTime":577.052,"endTime":580.002,"body":"to get better at product management."},{"startTime":580.432,"endTime":584.422,"body":"However, most organizations  it's hit"},{"startTime":580.432,"endTime":584.422,"body":"or miss whether that person that is"},{"startTime":584.422,"endTime":588.842,"body":"hiring product managers actually has deep"},{"startTime":584.422,"endTime":588.842,"body":"expertise in product management, because"},{"startTime":589.242,"endTime":593.032,"body":"my concern about people with expertise"},{"startTime":589.242,"endTime":593.032,"body":"is they're going to solve the problems"},{"startTime":593.032,"endTime":595.452,"body":"that are apparent or the problems that"},{"startTime":593.032,"endTime":595.452,"body":"are in front of them, or they're going"},{"startTime":595.452,"endTime":599.322,"body":"to assume that what they think are the"},{"startTime":595.452,"endTime":599.322,"body":"worst problems are the worst problems."},{"startTime":599.532,"endTime":602.492,"body":"Again, as a product manager, if I were"},{"startTime":599.532,"endTime":602.492,"body":"behind them coaching them, I would be"},{"startTime":602.492,"endTime":604.822,"body":"pushing them to say, gather your evidence."},{"startTime":605.122,"endTime":608.582,"body":"break it up, present a business"},{"startTime":605.122,"endTime":608.582,"body":"case show me where the growth"},{"startTime":608.602,"endTime":609.842,"body":"is, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":610.142,"endTime":612.852,"body":"I think they could have"},{"startTime":610.142,"endTime":612.852,"body":"blind spots for sure, right?"},{"startTime":612.892,"endTime":613.852,"body":"that's a real danger."},{"startTime":614.152,"endTime":616.942,"body":"They could have the blinkers"},{"startTime":614.152,"endTime":616.942,"body":"on and run with what they know."},{"startTime":617.432,"endTime":618.112,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":618.412,"endTime":619.492,"body":"How do you mitigate that?"},{"startTime":619.532,"endTime":620.312,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":620.792,"endTime":624.232,"body":"you mitigated with good product"},{"startTime":620.792,"endTime":624.232,"body":"practices and also if you would hope"},{"startTime":624.232,"endTime":628.527,"body":"that a person with deep domain expertise"},{"startTime":624.232,"endTime":628.527,"body":"maintains Contacts in the network."},{"startTime":628.527,"endTime":632.197,"body":"this is the same thing that I brought up"},{"startTime":628.527,"endTime":632.197,"body":"when, when we talked about this the, the,"},{"startTime":632.217,"endTime":635.257,"body":"the, the, the opening of the podcast where"},{"startTime":632.217,"endTime":635.257,"body":"I sparked that I was talking about this"},{"startTime":635.257,"endTime":639.687,"body":"with other product managers, the example"},{"startTime":635.257,"endTime":639.687,"body":"I used was, were you a domain expert"},{"startTime":639.757,"endTime":643.397,"body":"five years ago, 10 years ago, because"},{"startTime":639.757,"endTime":643.397,"body":"the industry might've moved on from that"},{"startTime":643.577,"endTime":646.717,"body":"the problems that you were there that"},{"startTime":643.577,"endTime":646.717,"body":"you had experienced when you were in the"},{"startTime":646.717,"endTime":648.867,"body":"role might not be the problems of today."},{"startTime":649.267,"endTime":652.127,"body":"And they may not be the ones that"},{"startTime":649.267,"endTime":652.127,"body":"the customers are willing to pay for."},{"startTime":652.427,"endTime":653.527,"body":". I want to call this one a draw."},{"startTime":653.637,"endTime":655.077,"body":"I feel like I didn't make"},{"startTime":653.637,"endTime":655.077,"body":"a really great argument."},{"startTime":655.077,"endTime":655.597,"body":"I'll take a draw."},{"startTime":655.897,"endTime":659.137,"body":"I don't know if there's any other"},{"startTime":655.897,"endTime":659.137,"body":"outcome here on this specific one."},{"startTime":659.247,"endTime":662.257,"body":"Well, let's move into one that"},{"startTime":659.247,"endTime":662.257,"body":"I think maybe I'll have an"},{"startTime":662.257,"endTime":664.267,"body":"advantage in So product discovery."},{"startTime":664.367,"endTime":669.297,"body":"The skills that you use to discover"},{"startTime":664.367,"endTime":669.297,"body":"business impact product discovery."},{"startTime":669.357,"endTime":672.747,"body":"So the product discovery, like the"},{"startTime":669.357,"endTime":672.747,"body":"continual cycle of experimentation"},{"startTime":672.747,"endTime":676.767,"body":"measuring, and then studying the"},{"startTime":672.747,"endTime":676.767,"body":"impact of what you just did, the plan"},{"startTime":676.767,"endTime":679.977,"body":"do study act cycle from the Deming"},{"startTime":676.767,"endTime":679.977,"body":"podcast, a skilled product manager"},{"startTime":680.477,"endTime":683.327,"body":"has these user research methodologies."},{"startTime":683.457,"endTime":685.617,"body":"coupled with an expert in design, right?"},{"startTime":685.617,"endTime":689.607,"body":"Product design and Hopefully they have"},{"startTime":685.617,"endTime":689.607,"body":"like an array of frameworks available"},{"startTime":689.607,"endTime":694.057,"body":"to them to deploy to figure out the"},{"startTime":689.607,"endTime":694.057,"body":"process of product discovery, as"},{"startTime":694.057,"endTime":697.347,"body":"outlined in the Marty Cagan all, all"},{"startTime":694.057,"endTime":697.347,"body":"the four Marty Cagan categories, how,"},{"startTime":697.367,"endTime":700.367,"body":"how to actually verify well is this"},{"startTime":697.367,"endTime":700.367,"body":"something that's viable to our business?"},{"startTime":700.427,"endTime":701.497,"body":"Will customers use it?"},{"startTime":701.507,"endTime":702.687,"body":"all the categories."},{"startTime":702.697,"endTime":704.517,"body":"Yeah, I think you're right here."},{"startTime":704.517,"endTime":706.657,"body":"I think this particular"},{"startTime":704.517,"endTime":706.657,"body":"category is something that"},{"startTime":706.657,"endTime":708.547,"body":"you probably will win out on."},{"startTime":708.847,"endTime":715.257,"body":"Because those core skills of journeying"},{"startTime":708.847,"endTime":715.257,"body":"the customer's path and understanding"},{"startTime":715.257,"endTime":716.357,"body":"the pain points, et cetera."},{"startTime":716.587,"endTime":720.207,"body":"I don't know if you have domain expertise,"},{"startTime":716.587,"endTime":720.207,"body":"you necessarily bring those to the table."},{"startTime":720.467,"endTime":721.947,"body":"You possibly just bring."},{"startTime":722.352,"endTime":725.992,"body":"A lot of assumptions I know what they"},{"startTime":722.352,"endTime":725.992,"body":"want because i've been in the industry"},{"startTime":726.002,"endTime":728.432,"body":"for 15 years And that's a danger."},{"startTime":728.522,"endTime":732.832,"body":"That's a real danger to a person that"},{"startTime":728.522,"endTime":732.832,"body":"comes in from within the domain, right?"},{"startTime":733.172,"endTime":738.352,"body":"So if a person who has domain,"},{"startTime":733.172,"endTime":738.352,"body":"expertise hasn't done a lot of Ux"},{"startTime":738.362,"endTime":740.442,"body":"type of work, These are core skills."},{"startTime":740.492,"endTime":743.552,"body":"They don't learn those in a hurry"},{"startTime":740.492,"endTime":743.552,"body":"they tend to gloss over them."},{"startTime":744.002,"endTime":747.852,"body":"They tend to have a lot of assumptions"},{"startTime":744.002,"endTime":747.852,"body":"and there's a lot of danger in that."},{"startTime":748.162,"endTime":751.752,"body":"this specific topic about product"},{"startTime":748.162,"endTime":751.752,"body":"discovery, who would excel here?"},{"startTime":751.762,"endTime":756.292,"body":"It would be somebody who knows the"},{"startTime":751.762,"endTime":756.292,"body":"practices, product management in this"},{"startTime":756.292,"endTime":760.562,"body":"regard, as opposed to somebody who's"},{"startTime":756.292,"endTime":760.562,"body":"really familiar and an expert on the"},{"startTime":760.562,"endTime":762.822,"body":"domain, but doesn't know how to do this."},{"startTime":762.922,"endTime":766.142,"body":"they can be learned I would say that,"},{"startTime":762.922,"endTime":766.142,"body":"I know I said I was gonna support the"},{"startTime":766.142,"endTime":770.752,"body":"argument, but I feel like there's a lot"},{"startTime":766.142,"endTime":770.752,"body":"unexplored in the typical pushback on this"},{"startTime":770.752,"endTime":775.312,"body":"one, and the main one that I can think of"},{"startTime":770.752,"endTime":775.312,"body":"is, why do I need to do product discovery?"},{"startTime":775.312,"endTime":778.682,"body":"I've dealt with many managers"},{"startTime":775.312,"endTime":778.682,"body":"over my career who just say,"},{"startTime":778.682,"endTime":779.912,"body":"just build what I tell you to do."},{"startTime":780.012,"endTime":781.422,"body":"Discover why you need"},{"startTime":780.012,"endTime":781.422,"body":"to talk to the customer."},{"startTime":781.902,"endTime":785.332,"body":"They almost take offense to the fact"},{"startTime":781.902,"endTime":785.332,"body":"that you're like, I need to do some user"},{"startTime":785.332,"endTime":788.572,"body":"discovery and do some journey maps They"},{"startTime":785.332,"endTime":788.572,"body":"feel challenged with their authority."},{"startTime":788.602,"endTime":790.662,"body":"this category is like, why"},{"startTime":788.602,"endTime":790.662,"body":"do you need to do that?"},{"startTime":790.962,"endTime":795.162,"body":"I just told you this is what we need to"},{"startTime":790.962,"endTime":795.162,"body":"do if you implement this the customer"},{"startTime":795.162,"endTime":797.592,"body":"will buy it They told me that's"},{"startTime":795.162,"endTime":797.592,"body":"what they told me on the internet."},{"startTime":799.052,"endTime":801.932,"body":"They told you that on the"},{"startTime":799.052,"endTime":801.932,"body":"internet I'd like to just"},{"startTime":801.972,"endTime":803.872,"body":"hear from the customer, right?"},{"startTime":803.902,"endTime":804.962,"body":"Let's validate that."},{"startTime":805.242,"endTime":806.452,"body":"When did you hear this?"},{"startTime":806.602,"endTime":808.292,"body":"It might not be recent, right?"},{"startTime":808.567,"endTime":811.957,"body":"And which customers you may have multiple"},{"startTime":808.567,"endTime":811.957,"body":"customers, different types, etcetera."},{"startTime":812.437,"endTime":815.437,"body":"Especially if you have multiple"},{"startTime":812.437,"endTime":815.437,"body":"products, my fear in this category why"},{"startTime":815.437,"endTime":818.467,"body":"I would prefer a product manager in"},{"startTime":815.437,"endTime":818.467,"body":"this category is because or at least"},{"startTime":818.657,"endTime":822.327,"body":"if you're gonna hire somebody who's"},{"startTime":818.657,"endTime":822.327,"body":"new, some strong coaching because"},{"startTime":822.627,"endTime":826.067,"body":"you're coming to the table with a"},{"startTime":822.627,"endTime":826.067,"body":"lot of assumptions in this category."},{"startTime":826.327,"endTime":827.237,"body":"That's my concern."},{"startTime":827.547,"endTime":830.247,"body":"You're going to the dev team and"},{"startTime":827.547,"endTime":830.247,"body":"saying to build this , I want to"},{"startTime":830.247,"endTime":833.717,"body":"know it's going to transition us"},{"startTime":830.247,"endTime":833.717,"body":"right into our next category, which"},{"startTime":833.717,"endTime":837.397,"body":"is real data driven decision making."},{"startTime":837.397,"endTime":839.437,"body":"So, you're bringing me assumptions."},{"startTime":839.737,"endTime":840.697,"body":"I want evidence."},{"startTime":840.907,"endTime":841.707,"body":"I want hard evidence."},{"startTime":841.717,"endTime":845.567,"body":"the PM case here is"},{"startTime":841.717,"endTime":845.567,"body":"strong analytical skills."},{"startTime":845.787,"endTime":850.467,"body":"the ability to dig for data to back"},{"startTime":845.787,"endTime":850.467,"body":"up experiments before you make claims."},{"startTime":850.487,"endTime":854.217,"body":"Any claim you make, make a"},{"startTime":850.487,"endTime":854.217,"body":"qualitative claim, that's fine."},{"startTime":854.517,"endTime":857.147,"body":"I'm not pushing against"},{"startTime":854.517,"endTime":857.147,"body":"qualitative claims in the business."},{"startTime":857.447,"endTime":861.417,"body":"I would just like to see some quantitative"},{"startTime":857.447,"endTime":861.417,"body":"data that backs up your qualitative claim."},{"startTime":861.747,"endTime":866.197,"body":"And if you truly can't have any, then"},{"startTime":861.747,"endTime":866.197,"body":"like, that's what surveys are for"},{"startTime":866.197,"endTime":867.211,"body":"and stuff like that there are ways."},{"startTime":867.211,"endTime":867.787,"body":"There are ways."},{"startTime":868.197,"endTime":871.587,"body":"if I were a director of product or"},{"startTime":868.197,"endTime":871.587,"body":"VP of product I would inherently"},{"startTime":871.587,"endTime":874.167,"body":"push back on anyone that says Well,"},{"startTime":871.587,"endTime":874.167,"body":"I can't just give you data for this."},{"startTime":874.167,"endTime":874.887,"body":"I didn't, you know."},{"startTime":875.097,"endTime":876.337,"body":"But I know because I'm an expert."},{"startTime":876.337,"endTime":876.697,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":876.907,"endTime":879.187,"body":"I would say, that doesn't smell right."},{"startTime":879.197,"endTime":879.997,"body":"get out of my office."},{"startTime":880.297,"endTime":884.387,"body":"Again, this is another one that if"},{"startTime":880.297,"endTime":884.387,"body":"you're coming in with very strong domain"},{"startTime":884.387,"endTime":889.527,"body":"depth, you're more likely to be fooled by"},{"startTime":884.387,"endTime":889.527,"body":"thinking that you know what the customer"},{"startTime":889.527,"endTime":893.807,"body":"wants, or when someone tells you, and"},{"startTime":889.527,"endTime":893.807,"body":"they're also a domain expert, or they've"},{"startTime":893.817,"endTime":897.317,"body":"been around, they're an allied person"},{"startTime":893.817,"endTime":897.317,"body":"to you you're going to believe them."},{"startTime":897.512,"endTime":900.392,"body":"Let's say you're dealing with a"},{"startTime":897.512,"endTime":900.392,"body":"salesperson who's been there 20 years."},{"startTime":900.782,"endTime":902.302,"body":"this salesperson is successful."},{"startTime":902.302,"endTime":903.282,"body":"They've lasted this long."},{"startTime":903.522,"endTime":906.667,"body":"They command respect and they're"},{"startTime":903.522,"endTime":906.667,"body":"telling you what the customer wants."},{"startTime":906.967,"endTime":910.627,"body":"somebody with just domain experience"},{"startTime":906.967,"endTime":910.627,"body":"is more likely to go along with that"},{"startTime":911.007,"endTime":914.717,"body":"as was somebody who is a strong PM"},{"startTime":911.007,"endTime":914.717,"body":"would say, well, let's see the data."},{"startTime":915.257,"endTime":916.607,"body":"And to your point, I agree."},{"startTime":916.617,"endTime":918.847,"body":"There's always ways to"},{"startTime":916.617,"endTime":918.847,"body":"get quantitative data."},{"startTime":919.157,"endTime":921.187,"body":"Qualitative data is not to be discounted."},{"startTime":921.357,"endTime":924.557,"body":"But it should be used in"},{"startTime":921.357,"endTime":924.557,"body":"conjunction with qualitative data."},{"startTime":924.857,"endTime":928.837,"body":"I already know the Silicon Valley"},{"startTime":924.857,"endTime":928.837,"body":"pushback on this one, on the Brian Chesky"},{"startTime":928.837,"endTime":931.557,"body":"podcast I think even he says we don't"},{"startTime":928.837,"endTime":931.557,"body":"need data for every single decision."},{"startTime":931.667,"endTime":932.847,"body":"I might be wrong about that."},{"startTime":933.147,"endTime":935.927,"body":"But I believe it was him"},{"startTime":933.147,"endTime":935.927,"body":"that said, I don't need data."},{"startTime":936.067,"endTime":938.987,"body":"I mean, he's kind of like painting"},{"startTime":936.067,"endTime":938.987,"body":"with a real broad brush to say"},{"startTime":938.987,"endTime":941.147,"body":"some decisions are really simple"},{"startTime":938.987,"endTime":941.147,"body":"and we should just make them."},{"startTime":941.377,"endTime":943.687,"body":"I was going to say the rebuttal in"},{"startTime":941.377,"endTime":943.687,"body":"this category, the Silicon Valley"},{"startTime":943.727,"endTime":947.327,"body":"rebuttal in this category is I'll"},{"startTime":943.727,"endTime":947.327,"body":"tell you what metrics matter."},{"startTime":947.627,"endTime":950.767,"body":"Oh, I know the Brian Chesky"},{"startTime":947.627,"endTime":950.767,"body":"in the Brian Chesky podcast."},{"startTime":951.147,"endTime":952.197,"body":"And then the Brian Chesky."},{"startTime":952.472,"endTime":957.052,"body":"Figma podcast that we did with Curtis"},{"startTime":952.472,"endTime":957.052,"body":"Brian Chesky said you don't need to"},{"startTime":957.052,"endTime":959.192,"body":"run an A B test for every little thing."},{"startTime":959.592,"endTime":963.332,"body":"That's what he was pushing back against,"},{"startTime":959.592,"endTime":963.332,"body":"you don't need to run a test every time"},{"startTime":963.332,"endTime":967.162,"body":"you want to make an informed decision just"},{"startTime":963.332,"endTime":967.162,"body":"make the decision we need to move faster."},{"startTime":967.282,"endTime":969.092,"body":"that's the underlying thing."},{"startTime":969.092,"endTime":970.482,"body":"Don't waste time trying to gather data."},{"startTime":970.782,"endTime":974.042,"body":"maybe some decisions are"},{"startTime":970.782,"endTime":974.042,"body":"very few possibly, right?"},{"startTime":974.042,"endTime":976.732,"body":"Some decisions you could just"},{"startTime":974.042,"endTime":976.732,"body":"say, let's make an educated guess."},{"startTime":976.732,"endTime":979.452,"body":"Because you still need to know"},{"startTime":976.732,"endTime":979.452,"body":"why you're doing something as"},{"startTime":979.462,"endTime":980.572,"body":"opposed to, I'm telling you."},{"startTime":980.742,"endTime":981.472,"body":"How do you know?"},{"startTime":981.482,"endTime":984.392,"body":"That's the question I always ask"},{"startTime":981.482,"endTime":984.392,"body":"somebody who says, I know what they want."},{"startTime":984.412,"endTime":984.892,"body":"Build this."},{"startTime":985.192,"endTime":986.342,"body":"You treat me like an order taker."},{"startTime":986.392,"endTime":988.632,"body":"how do you know, when was the"},{"startTime":986.392,"endTime":988.632,"body":"last time you spoke to a customer?"},{"startTime":988.922,"endTime":990.242,"body":"can we just validate that?"},{"startTime":990.242,"endTime":995.122,"body":"Because maybe you spoke to one or five"},{"startTime":990.242,"endTime":995.122,"body":"and we'd like to speak with others and see"},{"startTime":995.122,"endTime":996.902,"body":"what the sentiment is across the board."},{"startTime":997.202,"endTime":1001.732,"body":"So this one's, I don't think it's"},{"startTime":997.202,"endTime":1001.732,"body":"black and white, but it's kind of gray."},{"startTime":1001.742,"endTime":1004.752,"body":"It's certainly very opaque and murky"},{"startTime":1001.742,"endTime":1004.752,"body":"because another problem with this"},{"startTime":1004.752,"endTime":1008.792,"body":"one is very few people actually"},{"startTime":1004.752,"endTime":1008.792,"body":"keep a decision log to tell them"},{"startTime":1008.792,"endTime":1010.182,"body":"this is what we decided to do."},{"startTime":1010.202,"endTime":1012.512,"body":"And in that log of this"},{"startTime":1010.202,"endTime":1012.512,"body":"is what we decided to do."},{"startTime":1012.832,"endTime":1015.882,"body":"You also would have another bullet"},{"startTime":1012.832,"endTime":1015.882,"body":"point that says, these are the"},{"startTime":1015.882,"endTime":1018.682,"body":"things we've talked about that we"},{"startTime":1015.882,"endTime":1018.682,"body":"could do, but we decided not to do."},{"startTime":1018.712,"endTime":1019.442,"body":"And here's why."},{"startTime":1019.532,"endTime":1022.362,"body":"very few people keep that kind of"},{"startTime":1019.532,"endTime":1022.362,"body":"information because  at the end of the"},{"startTime":1022.642,"endTime":1026.342,"body":"quarter, when you do your quarterly"},{"startTime":1022.642,"endTime":1026.342,"body":"planning, you can say, remember when"},{"startTime":1026.342,"endTime":1030.412,"body":"we decided not to do these things"},{"startTime":1026.342,"endTime":1030.412,"body":"or not to AB test these ideas."},{"startTime":1030.712,"endTime":1031.502,"body":"here we are now."},{"startTime":1031.532,"endTime":1032.802,"body":"The market seems to have moved on."},{"startTime":1033.232,"endTime":1037.842,"body":"the problem with this category is,"},{"startTime":1033.232,"endTime":1037.842,"body":"what do you do when you've documented a"},{"startTime":1037.842,"endTime":1041.112,"body":"string of evidence that kind of proves,"},{"startTime":1037.842,"endTime":1041.112,"body":"this one person makes bad decisions."},{"startTime":1041.412,"endTime":1042.672,"body":"that's easy to deal with, right?"},{"startTime":1042.722,"endTime":1044.132,"body":"What if that person is Brian Chesky?"},{"startTime":1044.182,"endTime":1045.202,"body":"everybody has their needs."},{"startTime":1045.502,"endTime":1048.322,"body":"So the bottom line on this"},{"startTime":1045.502,"endTime":1048.322,"body":"is decision making should be."},{"startTime":1048.727,"endTime":1053.397,"body":"Based on evidence and the evidence"},{"startTime":1048.727,"endTime":1053.397,"body":"should be sourced at the source"},{"startTime":1053.407,"endTime":1056.137,"body":"rather than somebody telling you"},{"startTime":1053.407,"endTime":1056.137,"body":"that I've spoken with customers."},{"startTime":1056.467,"endTime":1059.057,"body":"they were at our last"},{"startTime":1056.467,"endTime":1059.057,"body":"symposium or conference Okay."},{"startTime":1059.057,"endTime":1060.367,"body":"But who did you speak with?"},{"startTime":1060.367,"endTime":1064.247,"body":"Maybe you spoke with somebody at the"},{"startTime":1060.367,"endTime":1064.247,"body":"company, but it wasn't the right people."},{"startTime":1064.677,"endTime":1065.727,"body":"It wasn't the end user."},{"startTime":1065.827,"endTime":1066.927,"body":"So can we validate that?"},{"startTime":1066.937,"endTime":1068.917,"body":"That there's the only"},{"startTime":1066.937,"endTime":1068.917,"body":"pushback against that."},{"startTime":1068.927,"endTime":1072.087,"body":"Usually I think you said that"},{"startTime":1068.927,"endTime":1072.087,"body":"is let's get there faster."},{"startTime":1072.527,"endTime":1075.917,"body":"But the cost of getting"},{"startTime":1072.527,"endTime":1075.917,"body":"it wrong is way higher."},{"startTime":1075.977,"endTime":1079.067,"body":"See I want to give this category to"},{"startTime":1075.977,"endTime":1079.067,"body":"the product manager because I feel"},{"startTime":1079.067,"endTime":1083.947,"body":"like both of the candidates in this"},{"startTime":1079.067,"endTime":1083.947,"body":"position can make risky decisions."},{"startTime":1084.087,"endTime":1084.797,"body":"That's what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1084.797,"endTime":1085.867,"body":"We're talking about making a quick."},{"startTime":1086.167,"endTime":1087.007,"body":"Risky decision."},{"startTime":1087.127,"endTime":1087.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1087.617,"endTime":1091.327,"body":"A decision based on risk and I want to"},{"startTime":1087.617,"endTime":1091.327,"body":"give it to the product manager in this"},{"startTime":1091.327,"endTime":1096.857,"body":"category because if I'm making a decision"},{"startTime":1091.327,"endTime":1096.857,"body":"that I know is a risk, I'm trading off"},{"startTime":1096.857,"endTime":1100.007,"body":"speed for knowing a thing, for being sure."},{"startTime":1100.307,"endTime":1100.967,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":1100.967,"endTime":1101.697,"body":"That's no problem."},{"startTime":1101.827,"endTime":1103.577,"body":"We did it when Alex was here."},{"startTime":1103.577,"endTime":1106.217,"body":"We did a whole podcast about"},{"startTime":1103.577,"endTime":1106.217,"body":"intuition versus evidence."},{"startTime":1106.267,"endTime":1109.007,"body":"Sometimes when you're taking a"},{"startTime":1106.267,"endTime":1109.007,"body":"leap, you need your intuition."},{"startTime":1109.007,"endTime":1113.117,"body":"But I feel the product manager can"},{"startTime":1109.007,"endTime":1113.117,"body":"feel out all of the potential paths."},{"startTime":1113.587,"endTime":1117.057,"body":"Look at the evidence that they have, or"},{"startTime":1113.587,"endTime":1117.057,"body":"they don't have look at the potential"},{"startTime":1117.057,"endTime":1119.277,"body":"impact that they could have or can't have."},{"startTime":1119.757,"endTime":1122.787,"body":"And then make a leap based on experience."},{"startTime":1123.027,"endTime":1126.977,"body":"Now they get it wrong, like fine,"},{"startTime":1123.027,"endTime":1126.977,"body":"like again, they're going to insulate"},{"startTime":1126.977,"endTime":1129.437,"body":"that decision because they're a"},{"startTime":1126.977,"endTime":1129.437,"body":"product manager, that's what you do."},{"startTime":1129.737,"endTime":1133.587,"body":"Whereas the domain expert might feel"},{"startTime":1129.737,"endTime":1133.587,"body":"like they're putting all their eggs in"},{"startTime":1133.587,"endTime":1135.807,"body":"their basket, or they might actually"},{"startTime":1133.587,"endTime":1135.807,"body":"put all their eggs in their basket."},{"startTime":1136.267,"endTime":1139.347,"body":"I agree with giving this to the"},{"startTime":1136.267,"endTime":1139.347,"body":"product manager because the domain."},{"startTime":1139.647,"endTime":1143.537,"body":"Expert may not have the skills to"},{"startTime":1139.647,"endTime":1143.537,"body":"validate what they're doing ahead"},{"startTime":1143.537,"endTime":1147.767,"body":"of time And because you're a domain"},{"startTime":1143.537,"endTime":1147.767,"body":"expert, you're more likely to say I"},{"startTime":1147.767,"endTime":1149.227,"body":"know what the customer wants, right?"},{"startTime":1149.457,"endTime":1155.297,"body":"As opposed to i'll validate that so that"},{"startTime":1149.457,"endTime":1155.297,"body":"that hard data to make decisions, the PM"},{"startTime":1155.297,"endTime":1157.127,"body":"is more likely to succeed there, I think."},{"startTime":1157.477,"endTime":1159.187,"body":"All right, let's move on to"},{"startTime":1157.477,"endTime":1159.187,"body":"stakeholder management because"},{"startTime":1159.307,"endTime":1161.307,"body":"stakeholder management is like MVP."},{"startTime":1161.307,"endTime":1162.107,"body":"It's so watered down."},{"startTime":1162.127,"endTime":1162.797,"body":"I don't know what it is."},{"startTime":1163.017,"endTime":1164.697,"body":"Stakeholder communication."},{"startTime":1164.737,"endTime":1168.217,"body":"The act of managing relationships,"},{"startTime":1164.737,"endTime":1168.217,"body":"building consensus, navigating"},{"startTime":1168.217,"endTime":1169.397,"body":"organizational politics."},{"startTime":1169.427,"endTime":1171.727,"body":"These are all universal skills."},{"startTime":1171.967,"endTime":1173.367,"body":"These are all political skills."},{"startTime":1173.427,"endTime":1176.077,"body":"If you want to get ahead in your"},{"startTime":1173.427,"endTime":1176.077,"body":"career, if you want to move to"},{"startTime":1176.077,"endTime":1178.617,"body":"director of product management,"},{"startTime":1176.077,"endTime":1178.617,"body":"these are, these are skills you need."},{"startTime":1178.807,"endTime":1179.687,"body":"These are not skills you need."},{"startTime":1179.687,"endTime":1182.057,"body":"If you want to move to chief product"},{"startTime":1179.687,"endTime":1182.057,"body":"officer, you need to be a salesperson."},{"startTime":1182.107,"endTime":1182.567,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1182.617,"endTime":1185.557,"body":"So I think we've been here"},{"startTime":1182.617,"endTime":1185.557,"body":"is also a little bit of that."},{"startTime":1185.857,"endTime":1186.967,"body":"You mentioned politics."},{"startTime":1187.027,"endTime":1190.577,"body":"Absolutely that is ingrained in"},{"startTime":1187.027,"endTime":1190.577,"body":"there, but also change management."},{"startTime":1190.757,"endTime":1193.517,"body":"How is the change going"},{"startTime":1190.757,"endTime":1193.517,"body":"to be communicated?"},{"startTime":1193.627,"endTime":1196.867,"body":"And you know, how often,"},{"startTime":1193.627,"endTime":1196.867,"body":"to whom and what medium."},{"startTime":1196.877,"endTime":1199.197,"body":"And that's even putting aside in"},{"startTime":1196.877,"endTime":1199.197,"body":"product management, we don't talk"},{"startTime":1199.207,"endTime":1204.532,"body":"about the project management piece"},{"startTime":1199.207,"endTime":1204.532,"body":"of the job, which is very real."},{"startTime":1204.992,"endTime":1209.422,"body":"your whole communication plan, your plan"},{"startTime":1204.992,"endTime":1209.422,"body":"to roll things out and what phases and"},{"startTime":1209.432,"endTime":1210.882,"body":"how long when's it going to be done?"},{"startTime":1210.882,"endTime":1212.412,"body":"Like there's ways to"},{"startTime":1210.882,"endTime":1212.412,"body":"answer those questions."},{"startTime":1212.652,"endTime":1216.342,"body":"Those are very project management, type"},{"startTime":1212.652,"endTime":1216.342,"body":"of things that you just do, you hold"},{"startTime":1216.342,"endTime":1217.712,"body":"your nose, you do it, you get over it."},{"startTime":1218.122,"endTime":1220.492,"body":"It's baked into product"},{"startTime":1218.122,"endTime":1220.492,"body":"management as a subset."},{"startTime":1220.992,"endTime":1222.822,"body":"Sometimes you do more of it,"},{"startTime":1220.992,"endTime":1222.822,"body":"sometimes you do less of it."},{"startTime":1222.862,"endTime":1227.232,"body":"But if you're not good at stakeholder"},{"startTime":1222.862,"endTime":1227.232,"body":"communication, you're never going"},{"startTime":1227.232,"endTime":1229.292,"body":"to be a top tier product manager."},{"startTime":1229.422,"endTime":1231.362,"body":"when you're putting that next to."},{"startTime":1231.662,"endTime":1232.542,"body":"domain expert."},{"startTime":1232.932,"endTime":1234.842,"body":"That is a tough hill to climb."},{"startTime":1235.142,"endTime":1238.192,"body":"I think of the role, like the, job"},{"startTime":1235.142,"endTime":1238.192,"body":"title of technical product manager."},{"startTime":1238.192,"endTime":1242.662,"body":"we're looking for someone who knows how to"},{"startTime":1238.192,"endTime":1242.662,"body":"code I once talked to a PM who worked at"},{"startTime":1242.662,"endTime":1244.832,"body":"a company where they developed software."},{"startTime":1245.132,"endTime":1246.772,"body":"Software testing software."},{"startTime":1246.842,"endTime":1247.222,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1247.242,"endTime":1247.622,"body":"That's tough."},{"startTime":1247.912,"endTime":1252.222,"body":"Software testing software where the"},{"startTime":1247.912,"endTime":1252.222,"body":"testing software basically analyze"},{"startTime":1252.232,"endTime":1256.152,"body":"the DOM layer and it's like extracted"},{"startTime":1252.232,"endTime":1256.152,"body":"the elements and figured out how to"},{"startTime":1256.152,"endTime":1257.562,"body":"test things based on the DOM layer."},{"startTime":1257.962,"endTime":1260.522,"body":"Very deep tech, like as a PM."},{"startTime":1260.812,"endTime":1266.232,"body":"deep technical expertise in understanding"},{"startTime":1260.812,"endTime":1266.232,"body":"HTML CSS and the underlying actual"},{"startTime":1266.232,"endTime":1269.962,"body":"code to be able to hang in a"},{"startTime":1266.232,"endTime":1269.962,"body":"requirements discussion user stories"},{"startTime":1269.962,"endTime":1270.982,"body":"or whatever you want to call it right."},{"startTime":1270.982,"endTime":1273.842,"body":"Or development directors, those"},{"startTime":1270.982,"endTime":1273.842,"body":"kinds of people, tech leads."},{"startTime":1273.842,"endTime":1274.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1274.552,"endTime":1277.362,"body":"But I think of businesses like"},{"startTime":1274.552,"endTime":1277.362,"body":"that, they would be making the"},{"startTime":1277.362,"endTime":1280.432,"body":"case to say, stakeholder management"},{"startTime":1277.362,"endTime":1280.432,"body":"is important, I don't want just"},{"startTime":1280.432,"endTime":1283.687,"body":"somebody who's political Cause then"},{"startTime":1280.432,"endTime":1283.687,"body":"they won't understand our software."},{"startTime":1283.687,"endTime":1286.577,"body":"They won't understand our users"},{"startTime":1283.687,"endTime":1286.577,"body":"all of our user developers."},{"startTime":1286.877,"endTime":1289.377,"body":"So, yeah, I think that's right."},{"startTime":1289.407,"endTime":1293.807,"body":"And also if you're a, if you're a diet"},{"startTime":1289.407,"endTime":1293.807,"body":"in the world domain expert, you're"},{"startTime":1293.807,"endTime":1296.537,"body":"going to basically not pay heed to this."},{"startTime":1296.837,"endTime":1300.447,"body":"You're not going to really worry about"},{"startTime":1296.837,"endTime":1300.447,"body":"a racy, which a lot of times is used"},{"startTime":1300.447,"endTime":1304.317,"body":"for figuring out who gets communicated"},{"startTime":1300.447,"endTime":1304.317,"body":"to how and how often, et cetera."},{"startTime":1304.617,"endTime":1308.097,"body":"You're basically going to assume"},{"startTime":1304.617,"endTime":1308.097,"body":"that you are running the show"},{"startTime":1308.207,"endTime":1309.557,"body":"And whoever needs to know."},{"startTime":1309.857,"endTime":1310.937,"body":"they'll come to you right?"},{"startTime":1311.017,"endTime":1315.617,"body":"And that's a big problem because It's"},{"startTime":1311.017,"endTime":1315.617,"body":"not just showing progress in what"},{"startTime":1315.617,"endTime":1319.537,"body":"you're doing, it's also communicating"},{"startTime":1315.617,"endTime":1319.537,"body":"the bad news first when there is"},{"startTime":1319.537,"endTime":1324.027,"body":"bad news and the tact in which"},{"startTime":1319.537,"endTime":1324.027,"body":"that's done, Change management's"},{"startTime":1324.037,"endTime":1325.317,"body":"all about that, in my opinion."},{"startTime":1325.317,"endTime":1329.027,"body":"It's all about the change and how"},{"startTime":1325.317,"endTime":1329.027,"body":"you're communicating that, because not"},{"startTime":1329.057,"endTime":1330.597,"body":"everybody's going to welcome the change."},{"startTime":1330.677,"endTime":1332.887,"body":"There's always going to be a"},{"startTime":1330.677,"endTime":1332.887,"body":"few people that don't like it,"},{"startTime":1333.217,"endTime":1337.967,"body":"before this comes out we will have"},{"startTime":1333.217,"endTime":1337.967,"body":"posted the stakeholder management"},{"startTime":1338.007,"endTime":1343.327,"body":"podcast where we actually give you"},{"startTime":1338.007,"endTime":1343.327,"body":"a framework to Communicate with your"},{"startTime":1343.327,"endTime":1344.567,"body":"stakeholders and we give you something."},{"startTime":1344.567,"endTime":1347.497,"body":"If we're going to back out of the"},{"startTime":1344.567,"endTime":1347.497,"body":"arguing for a second check out the"},{"startTime":1347.497,"endTime":1348.697,"body":"stakeholder management podcast."},{"startTime":1348.697,"endTime":1352.007,"body":"we did we give you a real tactical"},{"startTime":1348.697,"endTime":1352.007,"body":"framework you might take that framework,"},{"startTime":1352.167,"endTime":1355.287,"body":"use it for six months and then"},{"startTime":1352.167,"endTime":1355.287,"body":"advance beyond it  and throw it away."},{"startTime":1355.602,"endTime":1360.022,"body":"Fine, but at least you have some"},{"startTime":1355.602,"endTime":1360.022,"body":"thing because this particular one,"},{"startTime":1360.022,"endTime":1363.272,"body":"like how to better communicate, first"},{"startTime":1360.022,"endTime":1363.272,"body":"of all, how to even segment out your"},{"startTime":1363.272,"endTime":1365.972,"body":"stakeholders to understand that they"},{"startTime":1363.272,"endTime":1365.972,"body":"are different types of stakeholders"},{"startTime":1365.972,"endTime":1367.772,"body":"that have different communication needs."},{"startTime":1367.852,"endTime":1371.002,"body":"Yeah, that's the first breakthrough"},{"startTime":1367.852,"endTime":1371.002,"body":"you have to make we covered that."},{"startTime":1371.282,"endTime":1373.092,"body":"So it's very practical, actionable."},{"startTime":1373.312,"endTime":1375.922,"body":"This is why this is such"},{"startTime":1373.312,"endTime":1375.922,"body":"a difficult category."},{"startTime":1376.222,"endTime":1378.152,"body":"Experienced product manager or not."},{"startTime":1378.622,"endTime":1380.632,"body":"because you're fighting all the tools."},{"startTime":1380.832,"endTime":1384.052,"body":"You're also fighting this attention"},{"startTime":1380.832,"endTime":1384.052,"body":"ecosystem that is trying to grab"},{"startTime":1384.062,"endTime":1386.962,"body":"all your minutes of every single"},{"startTime":1384.062,"endTime":1386.962,"body":"day to take your attention."},{"startTime":1386.962,"endTime":1390.372,"body":"You know, pop ups on your phone"},{"startTime":1386.962,"endTime":1390.372,"body":"email slack everything that's trying"},{"startTime":1390.372,"endTime":1391.782,"body":"to alert you You're fighting that."},{"startTime":1391.862,"endTime":1395.012,"body":"to get a real human connection"},{"startTime":1391.862,"endTime":1395.012,"body":"to really get on the same page."},{"startTime":1395.312,"endTime":1396.312,"body":"Agreed, absolutely."},{"startTime":1396.562,"endTime":1400.312,"body":"So I think stakeholder communication"},{"startTime":1396.562,"endTime":1400.312,"body":"is super critical, in my opinion."},{"startTime":1400.612,"endTime":1404.652,"body":"Because the one thing, one day, that"},{"startTime":1400.612,"endTime":1404.652,"body":"you fail to communicate is the one"},{"startTime":1404.652,"endTime":1406.632,"body":"that could come back and behead you."},{"startTime":1406.732,"endTime":1409.742,"body":"That's why I'm going to give"},{"startTime":1406.732,"endTime":1409.742,"body":"the PM this category because I"},{"startTime":1409.742,"endTime":1411.542,"body":"think you come into the ring."},{"startTime":1411.977,"endTime":1415.967,"body":"Day one knowing that this is  a huge"},{"startTime":1411.977,"endTime":1415.967,"body":"part you may already have that natural"},{"startTime":1415.967,"endTime":1420.437,"body":"talent depending on what industry you"},{"startTime":1415.967,"endTime":1420.437,"body":"come from Pound for pound like the PM you"},{"startTime":1420.437,"endTime":1422.597,"body":"would expect to already have this skill."},{"startTime":1422.907,"endTime":1426.677,"body":"I agree with that if you're from the"},{"startTime":1422.907,"endTime":1426.677,"body":"domain squarely like coming up through"},{"startTime":1426.677,"endTime":1431.027,"body":"that side of it You could learn this"},{"startTime":1426.677,"endTime":1431.027,"body":"yeah, this is not that hard, but you"},{"startTime":1431.027,"endTime":1434.357,"body":"have to you have to have some coaching"},{"startTime":1431.027,"endTime":1434.357,"body":"You have to be lucky enough to have"},{"startTime":1434.357,"endTime":1437.107,"body":"somebody who can coach you on this not"},{"startTime":1434.357,"endTime":1437.107,"body":"just yell at you and say you're not"},{"startTime":1437.107,"endTime":1438.567,"body":"doing a good job like what do you mean?"},{"startTime":1438.567,"endTime":1440.567,"body":"Well, you just gotta Talk"},{"startTime":1438.567,"endTime":1440.567,"body":"to people more generally."},{"startTime":1440.567,"endTime":1442.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1442.797,"endTime":1445.807,"body":"Stakeholder communication, we should"},{"startTime":1442.797,"endTime":1445.807,"body":"have just done round two of the last"},{"startTime":1445.807,"endTime":1448.777,"body":"stakeholder communication podcast,"},{"startTime":1445.807,"endTime":1448.777,"body":"because that's what this is turning into."},{"startTime":1448.997,"endTime":1449.937,"body":"I think that's true."},{"startTime":1450.057,"endTime":1453.357,"body":"you have to be very lucky to get"},{"startTime":1450.057,"endTime":1453.357,"body":"decent coaching, but I've seen"},{"startTime":1453.417,"endTime":1456.507,"body":"the other side of it, The coaching"},{"startTime":1453.417,"endTime":1456.507,"body":"goes you're from the domain."},{"startTime":1456.517,"endTime":1457.217,"body":"You don't know."},{"startTime":1457.217,"endTime":1458.837,"body":"You got to document everything."},{"startTime":1459.047,"endTime":1460.307,"body":"put it in an email, CYA."},{"startTime":1460.457,"endTime":1461.267,"body":"That's what I've seen a lot."},{"startTime":1461.377,"endTime":1465.027,"body":"there's a lot more terrible advice in this"},{"startTime":1461.377,"endTime":1465.027,"body":"category than there is good advice Sadly."},{"startTime":1465.177,"endTime":1466.317,"body":"Experienced product managers."},{"startTime":1466.767,"endTime":1468.517,"body":"But again, this is why we"},{"startTime":1466.767,"endTime":1468.517,"body":"did a whole podcast on it."},{"startTime":1468.527,"endTime":1471.017,"body":"there's solid advice in that podcast"},{"startTime":1468.527,"endTime":1471.017,"body":"for people that want to go look at it."},{"startTime":1471.047,"endTime":1472.927,"body":"Alright, let's move on"},{"startTime":1471.047,"endTime":1472.927,"body":"to product strategy."},{"startTime":1472.927,"endTime":1476.157,"body":"We did a couple podcasts on strategy."},{"startTime":1476.457,"endTime":1480.727,"body":"And the takeaways for both of those"},{"startTime":1476.457,"endTime":1480.727,"body":"podcasts where everyone is terrible"},{"startTime":1480.847,"endTime":1486.017,"body":"at strategy so if, if very few"},{"startTime":1480.847,"endTime":1486.017,"body":"people in the business that includes"},{"startTime":1486.047,"endTime":1489.987,"body":"executives and the people running the"},{"startTime":1486.047,"endTime":1489.987,"body":"business have ever really like run a"},{"startTime":1489.987,"endTime":1493.677,"body":"successful strategy, understand how"},{"startTime":1489.987,"endTime":1493.677,"body":"to construct a strategy, understand"},{"startTime":1493.677,"endTime":1495.547,"body":"how to keep a strategy moving forward."},{"startTime":1495.847,"endTime":1501.287,"body":"I will say if there is a chance that"},{"startTime":1495.847,"endTime":1501.287,"body":"somebody in the business knows how to"},{"startTime":1501.457,"endTime":1506.547,"body":"construct, build, drive a strategy,"},{"startTime":1501.457,"endTime":1506.547,"body":"it's going to be the product management"},{"startTime":1506.547,"endTime":1510.167,"body":"folks, the people with product"},{"startTime":1506.547,"endTime":1510.167,"body":"management experience, strategic"},{"startTime":1510.177,"endTime":1512.177,"body":"thinking, developing a roadmap."},{"startTime":1512.577,"endTime":1516.027,"body":"building consensus hardcore"},{"startTime":1512.577,"endTime":1516.027,"body":"prioritization skills."},{"startTime":1516.327,"endTime":1519.187,"body":"Maybe some people use frameworks with"},{"startTime":1516.327,"endTime":1519.187,"body":"like numbers and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1519.247,"endTime":1521.327,"body":"The principles of good product management."},{"startTime":1521.357,"endTime":1522.197,"body":"it's all baked in."},{"startTime":1522.347,"endTime":1526.277,"body":"you get this with good product management"},{"startTime":1522.347,"endTime":1526.277,"body":"skills the difficulty of hiring someone."},{"startTime":1526.552,"endTime":1530.622,"body":"out of a domain who doesn't have product"},{"startTime":1526.552,"endTime":1530.622,"body":"management in their background, or"},{"startTime":1530.622,"endTime":1534.752,"body":"especially hiring somebody new is they're"},{"startTime":1530.622,"endTime":1534.752,"body":"not really going to know how to do this."},{"startTime":1534.762,"endTime":1538.162,"body":"So they're going to go from feature to"},{"startTime":1534.762,"endTime":1538.162,"body":"feature or what management tells them"},{"startTime":1538.162,"endTime":1543.112,"body":"to build without regard for a strategy,"},{"startTime":1538.162,"endTime":1543.112,"body":"which might be fine if you're like a"},{"startTime":1543.112,"endTime":1545.822,"body":"quarter to quarter kind of business,  in"},{"startTime":1543.112,"endTime":1545.822,"body":"the long run, it's going to hurt you."},{"startTime":1546.312,"endTime":1547.242,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1547.242,"endTime":1549.332,"body":"if you're from the domain,"},{"startTime":1547.242,"endTime":1549.332,"body":"you're more likely to say."},{"startTime":1549.527,"endTime":1550.407,"body":"this is what we do."},{"startTime":1550.417,"endTime":1551.977,"body":"This is why we're questioning that."},{"startTime":1552.007,"endTime":1552.537,"body":"This is what we do."},{"startTime":1552.547,"endTime":1553.767,"body":"We've always done it that way."},{"startTime":1554.047,"endTime":1555.497,"body":"And we've been successful too."},{"startTime":1555.887,"endTime":1556.537,"body":"They may be right."},{"startTime":1556.577,"endTime":1560.377,"body":"Maybe you are successful, but that may not"},{"startTime":1556.577,"endTime":1560.377,"body":"be the core reason why you're successful."},{"startTime":1560.377,"endTime":1562.967,"body":"Maybe there's some underlying"},{"startTime":1560.377,"endTime":1562.967,"body":"strategy there that they haven't"},{"startTime":1562.967,"endTime":1567.517,"body":"been a part of in the past part"},{"startTime":1562.967,"endTime":1567.517,"body":"of creating it or implementing it."},{"startTime":1567.837,"endTime":1569.657,"body":"So there's a danger there."},{"startTime":1569.707,"endTime":1571.872,"body":"They could say that they could,"},{"startTime":1569.707,"endTime":1571.872,"body":"the other thing they could say is."},{"startTime":1572.172,"endTime":1576.562,"body":"I've been in this domain for 15"},{"startTime":1572.172,"endTime":1576.562,"body":"years, I know about our competitive"},{"startTime":1576.562,"endTime":1580.072,"body":"landscape, I know who the players are,"},{"startTime":1576.562,"endTime":1580.072,"body":"I know their strengths and weaknesses."},{"startTime":1580.372,"endTime":1580.672,"body":"Do you?"},{"startTime":1580.972,"endTime":1581.452,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":1581.742,"endTime":1582.122,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1582.352,"endTime":1585.612,"body":"So yeah, I think that this one"},{"startTime":1582.352,"endTime":1585.612,"body":"also probably will go to the"},{"startTime":1585.612,"endTime":1590.562,"body":"product manager because those core"},{"startTime":1585.612,"endTime":1590.562,"body":"skills of visualizing, creating a"},{"startTime":1590.562,"endTime":1592.842,"body":"strategy and then executing on it."},{"startTime":1593.142,"endTime":1596.162,"body":"They don't come naturally to someone"},{"startTime":1593.142,"endTime":1596.162,"body":"who's just coming up from the domain."},{"startTime":1596.252,"endTime":1596.512,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1596.712,"endTime":1598.132,"body":"the other side of this discussion is."},{"startTime":1598.432,"endTime":1601.852,"body":"You can come up with the best strategy"},{"startTime":1598.432,"endTime":1601.852,"body":"that you want, it's sort of a mix of"},{"startTime":1601.852,"endTime":1605.812,"body":"what we said earlier on in favor of"},{"startTime":1601.852,"endTime":1605.812,"body":"the person with domain expertises."},{"startTime":1606.112,"endTime":1608.242,"body":"Number one, you don't"},{"startTime":1606.112,"endTime":1608.242,"body":"need as much spin up time."},{"startTime":1608.302,"endTime":1609.682,"body":"You don't need to do as much research."},{"startTime":1610.012,"endTime":1614.742,"body":"And number two there's the possibility"},{"startTime":1610.012,"endTime":1614.742,"body":"that the pm, I mean, or business leader"},{"startTime":1614.742,"endTime":1618.343,"body":"really, it, it's not, it's not just an"},{"startTime":1614.742,"endTime":1618.343,"body":"accusation of the PM right now, but yep."},{"startTime":1618.643,"endTime":1623.523,"body":"There's a, possibility that your strategy"},{"startTime":1618.643,"endTime":1623.523,"body":"may miss the most impactful business"},{"startTime":1623.823,"endTime":1628.073,"body":"problems or opportunities, And also"},{"startTime":1623.823,"endTime":1628.073,"body":"you may not be aware of some of the"},{"startTime":1628.073,"endTime":1632.483,"body":"subtleties right in your industry, which"},{"startTime":1628.073,"endTime":1632.483,"body":"if a domain person would have come across"},{"startTime":1632.483,"endTime":1636.853,"body":"that over the 10 year they've had, so"},{"startTime":1632.483,"endTime":1636.853,"body":"maybe that's, that's also a possibility"},{"startTime":1636.853,"endTime":1639.363,"body":"there in favor of the domain expert."},{"startTime":1639.663,"endTime":1640.833,"body":"I'm not super clear on this one."},{"startTime":1640.843,"endTime":1644.123,"body":"I would give it to the"},{"startTime":1640.843,"endTime":1644.123,"body":"PM just because so many."},{"startTime":1644.423,"endTime":1646.763,"body":"people running businesses"},{"startTime":1644.423,"endTime":1646.763,"body":"Are comically bad at this?"},{"startTime":1646.813,"endTime":1648.283,"body":"more people are bad at this."},{"startTime":1648.353,"endTime":1649.433,"body":"Than are good at this."},{"startTime":1649.538,"endTime":1652.903,"body":"I, this is one of the, and I don't"},{"startTime":1649.538,"endTime":1652.903,"body":"mean like, not even like 50 50, no."},{"startTime":1652.903,"endTime":1654.133,"body":"I'm talking like overwhelming."},{"startTime":1654.433,"endTime":1654.913,"body":"Easily."},{"startTime":1654.913,"endTime":1656.353,"body":"90% of people are bad."},{"startTime":1656.353,"endTime":1657.103,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1657.263,"endTime":1660.868,"body":"this isn't one of those where for some of"},{"startTime":1657.263,"endTime":1660.868,"body":"the other categories we said the domain"},{"startTime":1660.988,"endTime":1664.098,"body":"expert could learn these skills, but this"},{"startTime":1660.988,"endTime":1664.098,"body":"isn't one of those, I don't think you"},{"startTime":1664.098,"endTime":1667.368,"body":"can learn quickly how to craft strategy."},{"startTime":1667.668,"endTime":1671.728,"body":"If you're a domain expert that"},{"startTime":1667.668,"endTime":1671.728,"body":"takes a certain set of skills that"},{"startTime":1672.028,"endTime":1673.938,"body":"you have to have built up over time"},{"startTime":1674.238,"endTime":1676.138,"body":"So slight edge on this one to the pm."},{"startTime":1676.438,"endTime":1677.628,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1677.628,"endTime":1681.978,"body":"So let's throw out a category that the"},{"startTime":1677.628,"endTime":1681.978,"body":"domain expert actually might have the"},{"startTime":1681.978,"endTime":1684.408,"body":"advantage in, which is user empathy."},{"startTime":1684.708,"endTime":1685.048,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1685.348,"endTime":1691.448,"body":"So the PM side of this, I would say"},{"startTime":1685.348,"endTime":1691.448,"body":"strong user empathy and interview skills,"},{"startTime":1691.448,"endTime":1692.668,"body":"the ability to work across domains."},{"startTime":1692.828,"endTime":1694.588,"body":"this is a skill you"},{"startTime":1692.828,"endTime":1694.588,"body":"should have regardless."},{"startTime":1694.588,"endTime":1698.148,"body":"Same thing with like, if you're"},{"startTime":1694.588,"endTime":1698.148,"body":"going to be in the Marty Cagan sphere"},{"startTime":1698.198,"endTime":1701.648,"body":"and, you're gonna have a UX person a"},{"startTime":1698.198,"endTime":1701.648,"body":"designer on your team, the designer"},{"startTime":1701.658,"endTime":1704.908,"body":"should have the best skills in the"},{"startTime":1701.658,"endTime":1704.908,"body":"business for this kind of stuff, right?"},{"startTime":1705.098,"endTime":1708.878,"body":"So, theoretically, the advantage"},{"startTime":1705.098,"endTime":1708.878,"body":"should be in the PM's court good PMs"},{"startTime":1708.878,"endTime":1713.408,"body":"know how to uncover details and kind"},{"startTime":1708.878,"endTime":1713.408,"body":"of keep driving it until they get to"},{"startTime":1713.408,"endTime":1717.738,"body":"the heart of the matter, regardless"},{"startTime":1713.408,"endTime":1717.738,"body":"of discipline or user or feature or"},{"startTime":1717.738,"endTime":1718.988,"body":"whatever you're talking about, right?"},{"startTime":1718.988,"endTime":1722.358,"body":"Pain point, you should be able"},{"startTime":1718.988,"endTime":1722.358,"body":"to dig to the underlying problem."},{"startTime":1722.698,"endTime":1725.048,"body":"I will point out that the PM"},{"startTime":1722.698,"endTime":1725.048,"body":"should have the advantage here."},{"startTime":1725.348,"endTime":1728.198,"body":"I also realize that"},{"startTime":1725.348,"endTime":1728.198,"body":"PMs are extremely busy."},{"startTime":1728.498,"endTime":1731.268,"body":"PMs are the first people that can wrap"},{"startTime":1728.498,"endTime":1731.268,"body":"themselves around the axle of wanting"},{"startTime":1731.268,"endTime":1733.208,"body":"to believe what they want to believe."},{"startTime":1733.613,"endTime":1734.363,"body":"Regardless."},{"startTime":1734.543,"endTime":1738.593,"body":"So this one if you're a domain expert,"},{"startTime":1734.543,"endTime":1738.593,"body":"you already have the relationships."},{"startTime":1738.593,"endTime":1742.943,"body":"Hopefully you already know the people"},{"startTime":1738.593,"endTime":1742.943,"body":"in your domain and that makes it"},{"startTime":1742.943,"endTime":1746.493,"body":"easier, It also means that you've"},{"startTime":1742.943,"endTime":1746.493,"body":"talked to them more over time,"},{"startTime":1746.643,"endTime":1747.703,"body":"what their needs are."},{"startTime":1748.033,"endTime":1752.863,"body":"You may not have done the scientific"},{"startTime":1748.033,"endTime":1752.863,"body":"analysis behind that gathering we"},{"startTime":1752.863,"endTime":1756.683,"body":"talked about earlier about making"},{"startTime":1752.863,"endTime":1756.683,"body":"decisions based on actual data."},{"startTime":1756.903,"endTime":1760.173,"body":"You may not have gathered that"},{"startTime":1756.903,"endTime":1760.173,"body":"in the past, but if you've"},{"startTime":1760.203,"endTime":1762.893,"body":"been there a long time, you've"},{"startTime":1760.203,"endTime":1762.893,"body":"spoken to your customers, right?"},{"startTime":1763.193,"endTime":1765.983,"body":"there's a danger there"},{"startTime":1763.193,"endTime":1765.983,"body":"because you tend to believe."},{"startTime":1766.148,"endTime":1767.838,"body":"What you want to believe"},{"startTime":1766.148,"endTime":1767.838,"body":"on the other side."},{"startTime":1768.138,"endTime":1772.118,"body":"So yeah, the PMs could craft"},{"startTime":1768.138,"endTime":1772.118,"body":"surveys, et cetera, in the way that"},{"startTime":1772.178,"endTime":1773.458,"body":"gives them what they want to hear."},{"startTime":1773.668,"endTime":1778.028,"body":"on the domain expert side, you don't"},{"startTime":1773.668,"endTime":1778.028,"body":"have structured ways of gathering data."},{"startTime":1778.248,"endTime":1782.968,"body":"So you tend to fall mainly on"},{"startTime":1778.248,"endTime":1782.968,"body":"beliefs and assumptions as well."},{"startTime":1783.078,"endTime":1786.938,"body":"I'd be willing to give this one pretty"},{"startTime":1783.078,"endTime":1786.938,"body":"clearly to the domain expert because"},{"startTime":1786.948,"endTime":1791.118,"body":"when you're proposing solutions and"},{"startTime":1786.948,"endTime":1791.118,"body":"like the, when, when you say, Hey, if"},{"startTime":1791.118,"endTime":1795.898,"body":"I solve this pain point by doing X,"},{"startTime":1791.118,"endTime":1795.898,"body":"Y, Z, what would you think about that?"},{"startTime":1795.908,"endTime":1798.878,"body":"Or would you sign up for that  like if"},{"startTime":1795.908,"endTime":1798.878,"body":"you're a product manager, you're throwing"},{"startTime":1798.878,"endTime":1801.448,"body":"these things out, like a sales person"},{"startTime":1798.878,"endTime":1801.448,"body":"would say would you sign up on a waiting"},{"startTime":1801.448,"endTime":1802.928,"body":"list if we came out with a feature that."},{"startTime":1803.288,"endTime":1807.288,"body":"You know, wash your car for you while"},{"startTime":1803.288,"endTime":1807.288,"body":"you were at work or something, whatever."},{"startTime":1807.588,"endTime":1811.588,"body":"And you see the light in the eyes"},{"startTime":1807.588,"endTime":1811.588,"body":"of like, that would be amazing."},{"startTime":1812.008,"endTime":1816.308,"body":"I could go in to work  and come out and"},{"startTime":1812.008,"endTime":1816.308,"body":"my car is completely washed and polished."},{"startTime":1816.438,"endTime":1816.658,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1816.688,"endTime":1817.458,"body":"Amazing."},{"startTime":1817.793,"endTime":1819.733,"body":"I don't even need to worry about"},{"startTime":1817.793,"endTime":1819.733,"body":"scheduling because you guys would"},{"startTime":1819.733,"endTime":1823.013,"body":"take care of scheduling  there's a"},{"startTime":1819.733,"endTime":1823.013,"body":"moment where you suggest something."},{"startTime":1823.063,"endTime":1826.983,"body":"Yeah, and a user's eyes light up and you"},{"startTime":1823.063,"endTime":1826.983,"body":"know that you've hit on something special."},{"startTime":1827.043,"endTime":1833.118,"body":"the user empathy for the Domain expert"},{"startTime":1827.043,"endTime":1833.118,"body":"can have that feeling well in advance"},{"startTime":1833.118,"endTime":1835.598,"body":"of when the product manager you don't"},{"startTime":1833.118,"endTime":1835.598,"body":"need to there, there, there's less"},{"startTime":1835.748,"endTime":1839.068,"body":"information you need to gather, less"},{"startTime":1835.748,"endTime":1839.068,"body":"interviews, you need to do, theoretically,"},{"startTime":1839.068,"endTime":1840.388,"body":"again, all things being equal."},{"startTime":1840.498,"endTime":1843.168,"body":"To have this aha moment that"},{"startTime":1840.498,"endTime":1843.168,"body":"we're really talking about."},{"startTime":1843.298,"endTime":1845.418,"body":"And , I'm pretty confident handing"},{"startTime":1843.298,"endTime":1845.418,"body":"this one to the domain expert."},{"startTime":1845.418,"endTime":1845.713,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1845.713,"endTime":1849.043,"body":"And the domain expert can learn"},{"startTime":1845.713,"endTime":1849.043,"body":"those scientific ways as well, right?"},{"startTime":1849.043,"endTime":1850.208,"body":"those are learnable things."},{"startTime":1850.488,"endTime":1852.148,"body":", if you're willing to,"},{"startTime":1850.488,"endTime":1852.148,"body":"keep going back to this."},{"startTime":1852.498,"endTime":1857.658,"body":"If your company is willing to spare"},{"startTime":1852.498,"endTime":1857.658,"body":"the time of someone more senior in"},{"startTime":1857.658,"endTime":1862.603,"body":"the role of product manager to coach"},{"startTime":1857.658,"endTime":1862.603,"body":"a lot of companies get in,  they"},{"startTime":1862.603,"endTime":1867.633,"body":"think this trap of what's the ROI on"},{"startTime":1862.603,"endTime":1867.633,"body":"having someone on staff that spends 50"},{"startTime":1867.633,"endTime":1870.908,"body":"percent of their time just coaching,"},{"startTime":1867.633,"endTime":1870.908,"body":"that seems like a big waste of money."},{"startTime":1871.188,"endTime":1873.448,"body":"We can get these people in"},{"startTime":1871.188,"endTime":1873.448,"body":"right out of the industry."},{"startTime":1873.458,"endTime":1876.878,"body":"And not have to pay top"},{"startTime":1873.458,"endTime":1876.878,"body":"product management fees."},{"startTime":1876.998,"endTime":1878.898,"body":"that's the argument against"},{"startTime":1876.998,"endTime":1878.898,"body":"upscaling in general."},{"startTime":1878.898,"endTime":1881.468,"body":"you could say we'll just get a"},{"startTime":1878.898,"endTime":1881.468,"body":"product coach in for a little bit."},{"startTime":1881.538,"endTime":1881.758,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1881.818,"endTime":1882.698,"body":"What's the ROI?"},{"startTime":1883.003,"endTime":1886.373,"body":"It's hard to quantify immediately,"},{"startTime":1883.003,"endTime":1886.373,"body":"but there's definitely one there."},{"startTime":1886.423,"endTime":1889.943,"body":"I mean,  maybe that's a product coach"},{"startTime":1886.423,"endTime":1889.943,"body":"centric podcast to say well, can we"},{"startTime":1889.943,"endTime":1895.383,"body":"just pay for like an hour of coaching"},{"startTime":1889.943,"endTime":1895.383,"body":"every other week and call it enough?"},{"startTime":1895.413,"endTime":1899.263,"body":"You know, like how much coaching"},{"startTime":1895.413,"endTime":1899.263,"body":"do I need and what's the ROI?"},{"startTime":1899.313,"endTime":1900.483,"body":"Do I need a full time employee?"},{"startTime":1900.623,"endTime":1902.543,"body":"Do I need to hire a full time Agile coach?"},{"startTime":1902.883,"endTime":1906.363,"body":"Or can I have one Agile coach"},{"startTime":1902.883,"endTime":1906.363,"body":"split across 19 teams and think"},{"startTime":1906.363,"endTime":1907.033,"body":"they're going to be effective?"},{"startTime":1907.043,"endTime":1909.563,"body":"This would be a good podcast, I"},{"startTime":1907.043,"endTime":1909.563,"body":"feel, with Mike Miller, because he"},{"startTime":1909.563,"endTime":1911.313,"body":"was a product coach just recently."},{"startTime":1911.313,"endTime":1912.763,"body":"So, yeah, this would be a good one."},{"startTime":1912.913,"endTime":1913.673,"body":"I'll reach out to him."},{"startTime":1913.803,"endTime":1916.913,"body":"Alright, let's move on to a category"},{"startTime":1913.803,"endTime":1916.913,"body":"that  I would hope will be to the"},{"startTime":1916.923,"endTime":1921.253,"body":"PM's advantage, which is I would"},{"startTime":1916.923,"endTime":1921.253,"body":"expect the experienced product manager"},{"startTime":1921.423,"endTime":1925.443,"body":"brings fresh eyes that can spot"},{"startTime":1921.423,"endTime":1925.443,"body":"opportunities that industry veterans"},{"startTime":1925.473,"endTime":1929.123,"body":"might miss, they're unburdened by"},{"startTime":1925.473,"endTime":1929.123,"body":"the way things have always been done."},{"startTime":1929.468,"endTime":1934.638,"body":"They can get these, these what do we"},{"startTime":1929.468,"endTime":1934.638,"body":"call the intuition versus evidence?"},{"startTime":1934.638,"endTime":1937.678,"body":"They can have these breakthrough"},{"startTime":1934.638,"endTime":1937.678,"body":"moments where they can break through"},{"startTime":1937.688,"endTime":1941.478,"body":"with intuition as their product"},{"startTime":1937.688,"endTime":1941.478,"body":"sense kind of tells them things about"},{"startTime":1941.478,"endTime":1945.228,"body":"the discoveries they make, or they"},{"startTime":1941.478,"endTime":1945.228,"body":"interview many folks in the field."},{"startTime":1945.278,"endTime":1947.368,"body":"And start seeing"},{"startTime":1945.278,"endTime":1947.368,"body":"similarities and patterns."},{"startTime":1947.538,"endTime":1949.068,"body":"This is  typical PM training."},{"startTime":1949.358,"endTime":1951.998,"body":"And also like they, they"},{"startTime":1949.358,"endTime":1951.998,"body":"are considered an outsider."},{"startTime":1952.298,"endTime":1956.258,"body":"To the normal business that's going on"},{"startTime":1952.298,"endTime":1956.258,"body":"and usually when your business grows"},{"startTime":1956.258,"endTime":1960.618,"body":"to a certain size, the system kind"},{"startTime":1956.258,"endTime":1960.618,"body":"of  eats any deviation from the mean."},{"startTime":1960.918,"endTime":1962.508,"body":"These people can kind"},{"startTime":1960.918,"endTime":1962.508,"body":"of break through that."},{"startTime":1962.808,"endTime":1966.418,"body":"I agree with that, if you're a domain"},{"startTime":1962.808,"endTime":1966.418,"body":"expert, you do have blind spots, you"},{"startTime":1966.418,"endTime":1971.098,"body":"have assumptions, and somebody new,"},{"startTime":1966.418,"endTime":1971.098,"body":"to your point, could see things with"},{"startTime":1971.128,"endTime":1973.718,"body":"fresh pair of eyes, question you, right?"},{"startTime":1973.758,"endTime":1975.648,"body":"Or question your practices, Definitely."},{"startTime":1975.948,"endTime":1979.838,"body":"This is where a domain expert might"},{"startTime":1975.948,"endTime":1979.838,"body":"say, what you're suggesting doesn't"},{"startTime":1979.838,"endTime":1981.038,"body":"work here because we're special."},{"startTime":1981.068,"endTime":1982.508,"body":"Or, we tried that."},{"startTime":1982.793,"endTime":1985.453,"body":"In the past and it didn't"},{"startTime":1982.793,"endTime":1985.453,"body":"work What did you try really?"},{"startTime":1985.543,"endTime":1989.213,"body":"it's similar argument to Agile"},{"startTime":1985.543,"endTime":1989.213,"body":"Coaches is going into an organization"},{"startTime":1989.223,"endTime":1990.613,"body":"being told agile doesn't work."},{"startTime":1990.613,"endTime":1991.183,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1991.183,"endTime":1994.913,"body":"We tried it We did that we did that"},{"startTime":1991.183,"endTime":1994.913,"body":"podcast it doesn't work podcast we didn't"},{"startTime":1994.913,"endTime":1998.923,"body":"do that I really want to do I didn't"},{"startTime":1994.913,"endTime":1998.923,"body":"write it down or tell you about it before"},{"startTime":1998.923,"endTime":2004.334,"body":"now marty Cagan doesn't work here  I"},{"startTime":1998.923,"endTime":2004.334,"body":"think we can put on a pretty entertaining"},{"startTime":2004.344,"endTime":2006.234,"body":"podcast of Marty Cagan doesn't work here."},{"startTime":2006.234,"endTime":2006.484,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2006.534,"endTime":2007.484,"body":"I'm gonna invite him to it."},{"startTime":2007.674,"endTime":2009.984,"body":"we need to put together"},{"startTime":2007.674,"endTime":2009.984,"body":"the skeleton agenda."},{"startTime":2010.084,"endTime":2011.544,"body":"Marty Cagan doesn't work here."},{"startTime":2011.844,"endTime":2015.414,"body":"This bare bones skeleton agenda"},{"startTime":2011.844,"endTime":2015.414,"body":"for us, Marty, like this style"},{"startTime":2015.414,"endTime":2019.204,"body":"of four against four and then"},{"startTime":2015.414,"endTime":2019.204,"body":"I will send it to Marty Cagan."},{"startTime":2019.224,"endTime":2022.524,"body":"Anyway, the technical understanding"},{"startTime":2019.224,"endTime":2022.524,"body":"I think will be another quick"},{"startTime":2022.534,"endTime":2028.594,"body":"category because a strong PM who is"},{"startTime":2022.534,"endTime":2028.594,"body":"a good partner with their technical"},{"startTime":2028.594,"endTime":2030.734,"body":"leadership, especially if they"},{"startTime":2028.594,"endTime":2030.734,"body":"don't have a technical background."},{"startTime":2031.034,"endTime":2035.924,"body":"quickly coming up to speed with technical"},{"startTime":2031.034,"endTime":2035.924,"body":"fundamentals and being able to coordinate"},{"startTime":2035.924,"endTime":2039.444,"body":"with engineers, architects folks that"},{"startTime":2035.924,"endTime":2039.444,"body":"are more on the technical side of"},{"startTime":2039.444,"endTime":2041.314,"body":"the house, goes into the category of."},{"startTime":2041.614,"endTime":2046.114,"body":"Having a better initial relationship"},{"startTime":2041.614,"endTime":2046.114,"body":"with your technical team members,"},{"startTime":2046.414,"endTime":2050.214,"body":"and then across, across other"},{"startTime":2046.414,"endTime":2050.214,"body":"tech teams you partner with."},{"startTime":2050.514,"endTime":2054.764,"body":"I would hope that this again, may, it"},{"startTime":2050.514,"endTime":2054.764,"body":"might not be because your, your, your"},{"startTime":2054.774,"endTime":2059.154,"body":"domain expertise might actually be a"},{"startTime":2054.774,"endTime":2059.154,"body":"technical domain I was going to go there."},{"startTime":2059.164,"endTime":2061.914,"body":"But in cases where it's not,"},{"startTime":2059.164,"endTime":2061.914,"body":"I would hand this to the PM."},{"startTime":2061.964,"endTime":2065.179,"body":", if you're coming from a technical"},{"startTime":2061.964,"endTime":2065.179,"body":"domain, I would then hand that back"},{"startTime":2065.179,"endTime":2068.529,"body":"if you're a domain expert and you"},{"startTime":2065.179,"endTime":2068.529,"body":"have a technical background and"},{"startTime":2068.539,"endTime":2072.419,"body":"you grew up in that organization,"},{"startTime":2068.539,"endTime":2072.419,"body":"you probably have the edge."},{"startTime":2072.719,"endTime":2074.769,"body":"otherwise the PM gets the edge here."},{"startTime":2074.769,"endTime":2075.019,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2075.489,"endTime":2078.489,"body":"So let's move on to a couple I'm going"},{"startTime":2075.489,"endTime":2078.489,"body":"to, skip market analysis for now."},{"startTime":2078.489,"endTime":2079.809,"body":"Cause nobody does market analysis."},{"startTime":2079.809,"endTime":2082.709,"body":"That category would be a"},{"startTime":2079.809,"endTime":2082.709,"body":"draw that wouldn't be a draw."},{"startTime":2083.009,"endTime":2083.304,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2083.304,"endTime":2084.259,"body":"Let's, let's talk about market."},{"startTime":2084.259,"endTime":2088.589,"body":"So market, market analysis,  I"},{"startTime":2084.259,"endTime":2088.589,"body":"would expect a PM to understand"},{"startTime":2088.899,"endTime":2092.649,"body":"a basic competitive analysis, the"},{"startTime":2088.899,"endTime":2092.649,"body":"basics of total addressable market."},{"startTime":2092.649,"endTime":2094.989,"body":"Just key market concepts."},{"startTime":2095.289,"endTime":2099.069,"body":"And then they can kind of spot"},{"startTime":2095.289,"endTime":2099.069,"body":"market shifts, business blind"},{"startTime":2099.069,"endTime":2099.939,"body":"spots, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2100.239,"endTime":2103.079,"body":"And halfway through saying"},{"startTime":2100.239,"endTime":2103.079,"body":"it , I thought to myself,  I"},{"startTime":2103.079,"endTime":2104.609,"body":"don't think I've met hardly any."},{"startTime":2104.909,"endTime":2106.939,"body":"Product managers who"},{"startTime":2104.909,"endTime":2106.939,"body":"actually have these skills."},{"startTime":2106.939,"endTime":2110.179,"body":"also  I know this field you're"},{"startTime":2106.939,"endTime":2110.179,"body":"misreading the landscape the markets"},{"startTime":2110.179,"endTime":2113.749,"body":"moving this way not that way I don't"},{"startTime":2110.179,"endTime":2113.749,"body":"know if any one person from their"},{"startTime":2113.749,"endTime":2117.029,"body":"one domain expertise position in the"},{"startTime":2113.749,"endTime":2117.029,"body":"market would have these skills either."},{"startTime":2117.039,"endTime":2121.109,"body":"I think, this is a tough skill that"},{"startTime":2117.039,"endTime":2121.109,"body":"unless you have a marketing background,"},{"startTime":2121.169,"endTime":2122.729,"body":"I don't know if you have this skill."},{"startTime":2123.029,"endTime":2124.939,"body":"I think this is a 50 50, honestly."},{"startTime":2125.189,"endTime":2128.129,"body":"I don't know who gets the edge"},{"startTime":2125.189,"endTime":2128.129,"body":"here because the domain experts"},{"startTime":2128.129,"endTime":2131.429,"body":"more likely to either assume, which"},{"startTime":2128.129,"endTime":2131.429,"body":"we've said about other, categories"},{"startTime":2131.429,"endTime":2135.379,"body":"here as well, or go behind the"},{"startTime":2131.429,"endTime":2135.379,"body":"curtain and say, You're an outsider."},{"startTime":2135.609,"endTime":2136.639,"body":"I've been here a long time."},{"startTime":2136.939,"endTime":2140.939,"body":"There's a lot of subtleties and"},{"startTime":2136.939,"endTime":2140.939,"body":"nuances here that you don't understand."},{"startTime":2141.239,"endTime":2141.949,"body":"So Nobody wins."},{"startTime":2141.989,"endTime":2143.329,"body":"You both lose."},{"startTime":2143.679,"endTime":2145.199,"body":"Sorry, I'm cutting Willy Wonka in here."},{"startTime":2145.199,"endTime":2145.889,"body":"You lose!"},{"startTime":2146.089,"endTime":2146.959,"body":"You get nothing!"},{"startTime":2147.009,"endTime":2150.889,"body":"The people that move into product"},{"startTime":2147.009,"endTime":2150.889,"body":"management from being domain experts"},{"startTime":2151.229,"endTime":2154.019,"body":"I think they make that move because"},{"startTime":2151.229,"endTime":2154.019,"body":"they are aware that there is a bigger"},{"startTime":2154.019,"endTime":2158.329,"body":"impact they could be making this"},{"startTime":2154.019,"endTime":2158.329,"body":"whole, category is speed to learning"},{"startTime":2158.509,"endTime":2163.179,"body":"Slash curiosity, like they have a"},{"startTime":2158.509,"endTime":2163.179,"body":"curiosity and with that curiosity"},{"startTime":2163.179,"endTime":2164.849,"body":"becomes this I want to learn new things."},{"startTime":2164.899,"endTime":2166.619,"body":"I want to scoop them"},{"startTime":2164.899,"endTime":2166.619,"body":"up as fast as possible."},{"startTime":2166.819,"endTime":2170.489,"body":"And this, this curiosity that,"},{"startTime":2166.819,"endTime":2170.489,"body":"that surprisingly it's like way"},{"startTime":2170.489,"endTime":2173.589,"body":"down on our list, but I think"},{"startTime":2170.489,"endTime":2173.589,"body":"this is like to be a strong PM."},{"startTime":2173.659,"endTime":2176.269,"body":"This should be near the top of your"},{"startTime":2173.659,"endTime":2176.269,"body":"list you should be a naturally."},{"startTime":2176.569,"endTime":2178.999,"body":"Curious person you see"},{"startTime":2176.569,"endTime":2178.999,"body":"trends in the market."},{"startTime":2178.999,"endTime":2179.879,"body":"You want to investigate them."},{"startTime":2179.879,"endTime":2182.499,"body":"You see new technologies You want to"},{"startTime":2179.879,"endTime":2182.499,"body":"investigate them i'm doing this now with"},{"startTime":2182.499,"endTime":2185.209,"body":"data models in my spare time I'm like"},{"startTime":2182.499,"endTime":2185.209,"body":"seeing which data models actually are"},{"startTime":2185.219,"endTime":2189.299,"body":"good for the applications that I need"},{"startTime":2185.219,"endTime":2189.299,"body":"most of them are garbage and I wonder"},{"startTime":2189.299,"endTime":2193.309,"body":"what all the hype is about but I wouldn't"},{"startTime":2189.299,"endTime":2193.309,"body":"know that if I didn't Personally explore"},{"startTime":2193.309,"endTime":2199.649,"body":"the models myself, a new pm can go from"},{"startTime":2193.309,"endTime":2199.649,"body":"market to market Meaning business domain"},{"startTime":2199.659,"endTime":2203.649,"body":"to business domain Generally speaking"},{"startTime":2199.659,"endTime":2203.649,"body":"Because they're a curious person."},{"startTime":2203.659,"endTime":2205.429,"body":"They want to know all the ins and outs."},{"startTime":2205.429,"endTime":2208.252,"body":"They want to know if you talk"},{"startTime":2205.429,"endTime":2208.252,"body":"about the Deming podcast."},{"startTime":2208.262,"endTime":2211.432,"body":"They want to explore the system,"},{"startTime":2208.262,"endTime":2211.432,"body":"the bounds of the system."},{"startTime":2211.612,"endTime":2212.872,"body":"Why the system is like it is."},{"startTime":2212.872,"endTime":2214.242,"body":"They want to know everything about it."},{"startTime":2214.512,"endTime":2217.722,"body":"Whereas  your pragmatist here, your"},{"startTime":2214.512,"endTime":2217.722,"body":"domain expert in the market, might"},{"startTime":2217.722,"endTime":2218.952,"body":"say you don't need to know all that."},{"startTime":2219.252,"endTime":2221.782,"body":"You don't need to explore all the"},{"startTime":2219.252,"endTime":2221.782,"body":"bounds and know all that is knowable."},{"startTime":2221.962,"endTime":2222.862,"body":"just build It slows us down."},{"startTime":2222.892,"endTime":2223.942,"body":"build FinTech widgets."},{"startTime":2223.992,"endTime":2225.522,"body":". What do you need to know all this for?"},{"startTime":2225.742,"endTime":2228.172,"body":"they may come from the standpoint"},{"startTime":2225.742,"endTime":2228.172,"body":"of all this stuff that you're trying"},{"startTime":2228.172,"endTime":2229.462,"body":"to learn is gonna slow us down."},{"startTime":2229.467,"endTime":2232.317,"body":"I'll say that their business leaders"},{"startTime":2229.467,"endTime":2232.317,"body":"probably will be on the same page as them."},{"startTime":2232.317,"endTime":2234.687,"body":"Why do you need to know why"},{"startTime":2232.317,"endTime":2234.687,"body":"things are built this way?"},{"startTime":2234.687,"endTime":2237.807,"body":". The business leaders would be in that"},{"startTime":2234.687,"endTime":2237.807,"body":"camp because they know that these"},{"startTime":2237.807,"endTime":2239.127,"body":"people have been around a long time."},{"startTime":2239.132,"endTime":2240.092,"body":"And their trusted advisors."},{"startTime":2240.392,"endTime":2243.592,"body":"But if we're being honest about"},{"startTime":2240.392,"endTime":2243.592,"body":"this from a curiosity standpoint,"},{"startTime":2243.592,"endTime":2244.872,"body":"I think the PM gets the edge."},{"startTime":2245.172,"endTime":2247.802,"body":"I will bring you to another one that"},{"startTime":2245.172,"endTime":2247.802,"body":"I'm not quite sure about this category."},{"startTime":2247.802,"endTime":2252.992,"body":"I don't know if anyone gets the edge in"},{"startTime":2247.802,"endTime":2252.992,"body":"the process and methodology category, a"},{"startTime":2252.992,"endTime":2257.112,"body":"lot of people from the business, meaning"},{"startTime":2252.992,"endTime":2257.112,"body":"business leadership, will discount this"},{"startTime":2257.112,"endTime":2259.072,"body":"and say, well, just do whatever works."},{"startTime":2259.372,"endTime":2263.912,"body":"And also, I think the, I think the,"},{"startTime":2259.372,"endTime":2263.912,"body":"the, the the domain expert here, I think"},{"startTime":2263.912,"endTime":2265.742,"body":"that also would be their default stance."},{"startTime":2265.862,"endTime":2266.822,"body":"Do whatever works."},{"startTime":2267.222,"endTime":2269.162,"body":"Why do I need scrum or"},{"startTime":2267.222,"endTime":2269.162,"body":"these other frameworks?"},{"startTime":2269.162,"endTime":2270.132,"body":"Like, I don't need to learn any of this."},{"startTime":2270.142,"endTime":2273.372,"body":"We're just gonna go from the"},{"startTime":2270.142,"endTime":2273.372,"body":"most difficult problem to the"},{"startTime":2273.372,"endTime":2277.122,"body":"next most difficult, impactful"},{"startTime":2273.372,"endTime":2277.122,"body":"problem, and we're just gonna"},{"startTime":2277.122,"endTime":2278.702,"body":"do a great job doing cool stuff."},{"startTime":2279.192,"endTime":2283.812,"body":"Product discovery methodologies,"},{"startTime":2279.192,"endTime":2283.812,"body":"organizational design patterns,"},{"startTime":2283.822,"endTime":2288.442,"body":"frameworks to lay on my team to kind of"},{"startTime":2283.822,"endTime":2288.442,"body":"get us all on the same page to get us"},{"startTime":2288.442,"endTime":2292.642,"body":"through the forming stages and then once"},{"startTime":2288.442,"endTime":2292.642,"body":"we're You know, norming and performing"},{"startTime":2292.642,"endTime":2295.642,"body":"when we're further on down the line,"},{"startTime":2292.642,"endTime":2295.642,"body":"then we abandon our scrum framework."},{"startTime":2295.662,"endTime":2298.532,"body":"We don't need that anymore because now"},{"startTime":2295.662,"endTime":2298.532,"body":"we're Kanban and we can just move on."},{"startTime":2298.582,"endTime":2299.892,"body":"or maybe we don't need a framework at all."},{"startTime":2299.892,"endTime":2301.112,"body":"Talk about the shu-ha-ri here."},{"startTime":2301.152,"endTime":2301.562,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2301.592,"endTime":2305.922,"body":"I think what's going to happen"},{"startTime":2301.592,"endTime":2305.922,"body":"in this scenario is a solid PM."},{"startTime":2306.327,"endTime":2311.457,"body":"Can bring a set of concepts with"},{"startTime":2306.327,"endTime":2311.457,"body":"them that they know leads to success,"},{"startTime":2311.487,"endTime":2312.717,"body":"better ways of working, right?"},{"startTime":2312.727,"endTime":2314.827,"body":"Empower the team to do what's best."},{"startTime":2315.097,"endTime":2318.407,"body":"They're the experts, let them figure"},{"startTime":2315.097,"endTime":2318.407,"body":"it out, give them the tools they"},{"startTime":2318.407,"endTime":2319.667,"body":"need and let them get on with it."},{"startTime":2319.717,"endTime":2320.547,"body":"Those kinds of things."},{"startTime":2320.737,"endTime":2324.237,"body":"Whereas if you're just coming"},{"startTime":2320.737,"endTime":2324.237,"body":"in from a domain perspective, I"},{"startTime":2324.237,"endTime":2326.337,"body":"think you're somewhat blinkered."},{"startTime":2326.347,"endTime":2328.877,"body":"Like you're going to say, well,"},{"startTime":2326.347,"endTime":2328.877,"body":"here's how we do things here."},{"startTime":2329.287,"endTime":2330.337,"body":"And it works, right?"},{"startTime":2330.377,"endTime":2331.487,"body":"Cause it's successful."},{"startTime":2331.537,"endTime":2336.237,"body":"so you close your eyes to other"},{"startTime":2331.537,"endTime":2336.237,"body":"alternatives, which may or may not be as"},{"startTime":2336.237,"endTime":2337.967,"body":"good, but you close your eyes to them."},{"startTime":2338.187,"endTime":2342.387,"body":"So from that standpoint, I think"},{"startTime":2338.187,"endTime":2342.387,"body":"this one possibly goes to the PM."},{"startTime":2342.687,"endTime":2343.597,"body":"I don't think so."},{"startTime":2343.657,"endTime":2346.577,"body":"the PM sphere online right now."},{"startTime":2346.877,"endTime":2350.047,"body":"Pushes back hard against"},{"startTime":2346.877,"endTime":2350.047,"body":"any kind of structure"},{"startTime":2350.347,"endTime":2352.117,"body":"When you're a product"},{"startTime":2350.347,"endTime":2352.117,"body":"manager, you are a leader."},{"startTime":2352.417,"endTime":2355.027,"body":"Your job is to change the"},{"startTime":2352.417,"endTime":2355.027,"body":"system in addition to all the"},{"startTime":2355.027,"endTime":2355.897,"body":"rest of the stuff you're doing."},{"startTime":2355.967,"endTime":2358.342,"body":"not realizing that you"},{"startTime":2355.967,"endTime":2358.342,"body":"are the best positioned."},{"startTime":2358.642,"endTime":2361.522,"body":"person of leadership to change"},{"startTime":2358.642,"endTime":2361.522,"body":"the system going forward."},{"startTime":2361.542,"endTime":2364.682,"body":"if I were a scrum master on a"},{"startTime":2361.542,"endTime":2364.682,"body":"product manager's team, that would"},{"startTime":2364.952,"endTime":2366.882,"body":"be the first person I would seek."},{"startTime":2367.182,"endTime":2372.162,"body":"To get buy in, to say, we should"},{"startTime":2367.182,"endTime":2372.162,"body":"do process X instead of process Y."},{"startTime":2372.462,"endTime":2375.752,"body":"Or, what do you think about going"},{"startTime":2372.462,"endTime":2375.752,"body":"to leadership and saying why don't"},{"startTime":2375.752,"endTime":2379.372,"body":"we try for a sprint instead of"},{"startTime":2375.752,"endTime":2379.372,"body":"assigning us all of our work items."},{"startTime":2379.372,"endTime":2382.472,"body":", why don't we try for a sprint telling"},{"startTime":2379.372,"endTime":2382.472,"body":"leadership what we think we can"},{"startTime":2382.472,"endTime":2386.492,"body":"get done, the first person I would"},{"startTime":2382.472,"endTime":2386.492,"body":"try to get on board as a coach."},{"startTime":2386.792,"endTime":2389.552,"body":"Would be the product manager because"},{"startTime":2386.792,"endTime":2389.552,"body":"they're the number one person to"},{"startTime":2389.552,"endTime":2390.852,"body":"make an impact in this category."},{"startTime":2390.902,"endTime":2394.362,"body":"if you're coming from industry and you"},{"startTime":2390.902,"endTime":2394.362,"body":"don't have product manager experience."},{"startTime":2394.662,"endTime":2397.562,"body":"And you have these systemic"},{"startTime":2394.662,"endTime":2397.562,"body":"problems with your process , you're"},{"startTime":2397.562,"endTime":2399.542,"body":"not armed with any Experience."},{"startTime":2399.682,"endTime":2402.842,"body":"Yes the product manager is armed with"},{"startTime":2399.682,"endTime":2402.842,"body":"skill to deal with this and maybe they"},{"startTime":2402.842,"endTime":2406.152,"body":"don't have experience Or maybe they"},{"startTime":2402.842,"endTime":2406.152,"body":"have experience in what doesn't work."},{"startTime":2406.282,"endTime":2407.642,"body":"This is equally important."},{"startTime":2407.712,"endTime":2407.982,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":2407.982,"endTime":2409.712,"body":"I think You're making my argument now."},{"startTime":2409.762,"endTime":2412.722,"body":"I don't think either one of these, I"},{"startTime":2409.762,"endTime":2412.722,"body":"think everyone's a loser in this category."},{"startTime":2412.852,"endTime":2413.262,"body":"that's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2413.412,"endTime":2414.392,"body":"Everyone's a loser."},{"startTime":2414.422,"endTime":2417.692,"body":", the product management sphere"},{"startTime":2414.422,"endTime":2417.692,"body":"online is not making this better"},{"startTime":2417.692,"endTime":2420.642,"body":"by saying the agile people have no,"},{"startTime":2417.692,"endTime":2420.642,"body":"there's no product management in"},{"startTime":2420.642,"endTime":2421.612,"body":"what the agile people are doing."},{"startTime":2421.782,"endTime":2423.172,"body":"I'm not convinced about that."},{"startTime":2423.472,"endTime":2427.852,"body":"I think there's a slight edge here to the"},{"startTime":2423.472,"endTime":2427.852,"body":"product manager, because you can apply the"},{"startTime":2427.852,"endTime":2432.712,"body":"learnings from a different domain or your"},{"startTime":2427.852,"endTime":2432.712,"body":"past into whatever you're coming into."},{"startTime":2432.962,"endTime":2437.502,"body":"Whereas a domain, all they know is"},{"startTime":2432.962,"endTime":2437.502,"body":"what they know and that's a problem."},{"startTime":2437.802,"endTime":2439.392,"body":"I can't believe we're at"},{"startTime":2437.802,"endTime":2439.392,"body":"our last bullet point."},{"startTime":2439.667,"endTime":2443.117,"body":"Well, which is team leadership,"},{"startTime":2439.667,"endTime":2443.117,"body":"my case for the PM here is"},{"startTime":2443.317,"endTime":2446.367,"body":"leadership skill, team motivation,"},{"startTime":2443.317,"endTime":2446.367,"body":"cross functional collaboration."},{"startTime":2446.377,"endTime":2449.517,"body":"They're all universal abilities"},{"startTime":2446.377,"endTime":2449.517,"body":"that a product manager"},{"startTime":2449.527,"endTime":2450.697,"body":"should have to be successful."},{"startTime":2450.767,"endTime":2453.677,"body":"So you're better off grabbing the"},{"startTime":2450.767,"endTime":2453.677,"body":"typical product manager cause they"},{"startTime":2453.677,"endTime":2454.687,"body":"should have these typical skills."},{"startTime":2455.187,"endTime":2456.347,"body":"Rather than the domain expert."},{"startTime":2456.797,"endTime":2460.727,"body":"And the main exit is more likely to"},{"startTime":2456.797,"endTime":2460.727,"body":"basically say, whatever you're telling"},{"startTime":2460.727,"endTime":2463.217,"body":"me here, process wise won't work here."},{"startTime":2463.217,"endTime":2465.557,"body":"Because again, this is the"},{"startTime":2463.217,"endTime":2465.557,"body":"same point we made earlier."},{"startTime":2465.757,"endTime":2467.417,"body":"We're different as a company."},{"startTime":2467.537,"endTime":2469.607,"body":"We don't work that way as an industry."},{"startTime":2469.907,"endTime":2472.137,"body":"We're number two in the industry."},{"startTime":2472.137,"endTime":2475.787,"body":"if you're a leader, the argument is more"},{"startTime":2472.137,"endTime":2475.787,"body":"diluted, but if you're number two, you"},{"startTime":2475.787,"endTime":2477.847,"body":"say, well, we've already attained success."},{"startTime":2477.877,"endTime":2478.597,"body":"We're number two."},{"startTime":2479.097,"endTime":2479.407,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2479.797,"endTime":2485.057,"body":"So  I think this one possibly will also"},{"startTime":2479.797,"endTime":2485.057,"body":"go to the PM in my view, Team leadership."},{"startTime":2485.507,"endTime":2491.247,"body":"We're not talking about domain"},{"startTime":2485.507,"endTime":2491.247,"body":"knowledge led leadership or technical"},{"startTime":2491.247,"endTime":2493.837,"body":"leadership in that specific industry."},{"startTime":2494.267,"endTime":2495.707,"body":"We're talking about processes."},{"startTime":2496.012,"endTime":2499.922,"body":"Fostering a way of working"},{"startTime":2496.012,"endTime":2499.922,"body":"that is different than what has"},{"startTime":2499.922,"endTime":2502.772,"body":"been hopefully recognizing that"},{"startTime":2499.922,"endTime":2502.772,"body":"what has been doesn't work."},{"startTime":2503.072,"endTime":2505.272,"body":"So this one I would give to the PM."},{"startTime":2505.492,"endTime":2507.422,"body":"Probably not even a slight edge."},{"startTime":2507.532,"endTime":2509.522,"body":"I'd say at this stage, I don't know."},{"startTime":2509.602,"endTime":2512.362,"body":"I actually was on the fence with"},{"startTime":2509.602,"endTime":2512.362,"body":"this one when we wrote it down."},{"startTime":2512.362,"endTime":2517.342,"body":"Because I said For the domain expert"},{"startTime":2512.362,"endTime":2517.342,"body":"like taking a big step back away from"},{"startTime":2517.642,"endTime":2519.852,"body":"any specific industry or profession."},{"startTime":2520.152,"endTime":2522.782,"body":"So sometimes leadership is a"},{"startTime":2520.152,"endTime":2522.782,"body":"personal skill that someone"},{"startTime":2522.782,"endTime":2524.312,"body":"has developed outside of."},{"startTime":2524.767,"endTime":2527.737,"body":"Any of this kind of stuff and some"},{"startTime":2524.767,"endTime":2527.737,"body":"people have it, some people I've seen"},{"startTime":2527.737,"endTime":2532.097,"body":"that with excellent product management"},{"startTime":2527.737,"endTime":2532.097,"body":"skill that are not people that I would"},{"startTime":2532.097,"endTime":2533.407,"body":"follow naturally, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2533.407,"endTime":2534.777,"body":"And, and, and the opposite is true."},{"startTime":2534.777,"endTime":2534.997,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2535.227,"endTime":2540.147,"body":"So you find leadership in people and"},{"startTime":2535.227,"endTime":2540.147,"body":"there are some just get it and teams"},{"startTime":2540.187,"endTime":2543.087,"body":"naturally form around them, whether"},{"startTime":2540.187,"endTime":2543.087,"body":"they're in a position or not, they're"},{"startTime":2543.087,"endTime":2547.637,"body":"influencers, whether or not, I would"},{"startTime":2543.087,"endTime":2547.637,"body":"hope the PM has developed these skills."},{"startTime":2547.667,"endTime":2550.777,"body":"If not, naturally has these skills,"},{"startTime":2547.667,"endTime":2550.777,"body":"I certainly would hope, yes."},{"startTime":2551.077,"endTime":2553.277,"body":"I think it depends on"},{"startTime":2551.077,"endTime":2553.277,"body":"the maturity of this PM."},{"startTime":2553.277,"endTime":2556.527,"body":"I mean, if they're a young PM with"},{"startTime":2553.277,"endTime":2556.527,"body":"not too many years of experience under"},{"startTime":2556.527,"endTime":2557.697,"body":"their belt, maybe they don't have it."},{"startTime":2557.997,"endTime":2560.787,"body":"But if they've been in the game a"},{"startTime":2557.997,"endTime":2560.787,"body":"while, then they should have  that"},{"startTime":2560.797,"endTime":2564.647,"body":"the main person might be coming"},{"startTime":2560.797,"endTime":2564.647,"body":"from a technical background and"},{"startTime":2564.717,"endTime":2568.017,"body":"all they think about in terms of"},{"startTime":2564.717,"endTime":2568.017,"body":"leadership is technical leadership."},{"startTime":2568.057,"endTime":2571.717,"body":"Yeah architecture type leadership"},{"startTime":2568.057,"endTime":2571.717,"body":"as opposed to everything else."},{"startTime":2572.017,"endTime":2576.317,"body":"the advantage a domain expert would"},{"startTime":2572.017,"endTime":2576.317,"body":"have here is they would constantly"},{"startTime":2576.327,"endTime":2579.917,"body":"be leading you towards the why, they"},{"startTime":2576.327,"endTime":2579.917,"body":"would never let that go unspoken."},{"startTime":2580.217,"endTime":2583.647,"body":"Whereas, I think of PMs a lot of the"},{"startTime":2580.217,"endTime":2583.647,"body":"time, especially when they get busy,"},{"startTime":2583.947,"endTime":2586.137,"body":"that why kind of gets obfuscated."},{"startTime":2586.197,"endTime":2589.867,"body":"And they say, well, we got to do this"},{"startTime":2586.197,"endTime":2589.867,"body":"next, in order to do this next, we"},{"startTime":2589.867,"endTime":2591.197,"body":"can get along to these other things."},{"startTime":2591.207,"endTime":2593.707,"body":"So, we got to do this, so we can"},{"startTime":2591.207,"endTime":2593.707,"body":"get along to these other things."},{"startTime":2593.707,"endTime":2595.757,"body":"And you say, okay, well"},{"startTime":2593.707,"endTime":2595.757,"body":"they gave me this, so what?"},{"startTime":2596.057,"endTime":2600.727,"body":"Let's focus on the now, what, why,"},{"startTime":2596.057,"endTime":2600.727,"body":"what is the impact of this one thing?"},{"startTime":2601.167,"endTime":2605.857,"body":"And I think if both the PM and the"},{"startTime":2601.167,"endTime":2605.857,"body":"domain expert have even a rudimentary"},{"startTime":2605.897,"endTime":2609.257,"body":"leadership skill there may be an"},{"startTime":2605.897,"endTime":2609.257,"body":"advantage that the domain expert"},{"startTime":2609.497,"endTime":2611.207,"body":"can exploit in this situation."},{"startTime":2611.507,"endTime":2615.797,"body":"Because they're never doing something"},{"startTime":2611.507,"endTime":2615.797,"body":"without Communicating out the why,"},{"startTime":2616.097,"endTime":2618.367,"body":"but also a good product manager"},{"startTime":2616.097,"endTime":2618.367,"body":"should be doing this as well."},{"startTime":2618.567,"endTime":2620.637,"body":"They should be making a point of this."},{"startTime":2620.687,"endTime":2621.677,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2621.677,"endTime":2624.867,"body":"I think also the domain expert"},{"startTime":2621.677,"endTime":2624.867,"body":"might have already established"},{"startTime":2624.867,"endTime":2626.737,"body":"themselves as a trusted leader."},{"startTime":2626.947,"endTime":2629.397,"body":"So they're more likely to"},{"startTime":2626.947,"endTime":2629.397,"body":"get people to follow them."},{"startTime":2629.697,"endTime":2631.937,"body":"But also leadership is a rare skill."},{"startTime":2632.237,"endTime":2635.627,"body":"2025, we're still saying this."},{"startTime":2635.707,"endTime":2637.287,"body":"I just want to point that out."},{"startTime":2637.287,"endTime":2637.477,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2637.517,"endTime":2637.847,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2637.907,"endTime":2638.817,"body":"Shocking, but true."},{"startTime":2639.057,"endTime":2642.277,"body":"Well the age old debate"},{"startTime":2639.057,"endTime":2642.277,"body":"of domain expertise."},{"startTime":2642.567,"endTime":2645.557,"body":"Versus product management skill"},{"startTime":2642.567,"endTime":2645.557,"body":"we've thrown out a lot of points for"},{"startTime":2645.557,"endTime":2648.637,"body":"and against, I'll let you decide in"},{"startTime":2645.557,"endTime":2648.637,"body":"Thunderdome, which one wins at the"},{"startTime":2648.637,"endTime":2652.167,"body":"end of this, but  I don't know if I've"},{"startTime":2648.637,"endTime":2652.167,"body":"really adjusted my thinking on one side"},{"startTime":2652.167,"endTime":2653.337,"body":"or another coming out of this podcast."},{"startTime":2653.337,"endTime":2655.067,"body":"This, this, this pros"},{"startTime":2653.337,"endTime":2655.067,"body":"and cons on both sides."},{"startTime":2655.367,"endTime":2656.197,"body":"That's definitely true."},{"startTime":2656.197,"endTime":2656.987,"body":"This pros and cons."},{"startTime":2657.197,"endTime":2660.087,"body":"And listen, if you guys have, those"},{"startTime":2657.197,"endTime":2660.087,"body":"of you watching and listening if"},{"startTime":2660.087,"endTime":2663.777,"body":"you've have any thoughts or have"},{"startTime":2660.087,"endTime":2663.777,"body":"decided change your stance in some"},{"startTime":2663.777,"endTime":2667.667,"body":"way let us know we'd be interested"},{"startTime":2663.777,"endTime":2667.667,"body":"and don't forget to like and subscribe"}]}