{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.0,"endTime":7.789,"body":"this podcast is going to be different"},{"startTime":5.0,"endTime":7.789,"body":"than our other podcasts because I"},{"startTime":7.8,"endTime":11.099,"body":"did not let you read the post or any"},{"startTime":7.8,"endTime":11.099,"body":"of the comments before we started."},{"startTime":11.399,"endTime":12.079,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":12.12,"endTime":13.569,"body":"And I'm coming in blind."},{"startTime":13.61,"endTime":15.299,"body":"So it was different"},{"startTime":13.61,"endTime":15.299,"body":"than our other podcasts."},{"startTime":15.329,"endTime":15.719,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":16.99,"endTime":17.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":17.25,"endTime":17.889,"body":"What's different?"},{"startTime":17.889,"endTime":18.47,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":18.77,"endTime":18.99,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":18.99,"endTime":19.49,"body":"Hit the music."},{"startTime":23.293,"endTime":27.772,"body":"so today's podcast is a product management"},{"startTime":23.293,"endTime":27.772,"body":"focused podcast we have to read this post"},{"startTime":27.962,"endTime":30.042,"body":"because it's so cynical and burnt out."},{"startTime":30.042,"endTime":32.712,"body":", like the flavor of burnout"},{"startTime":30.042,"endTime":32.712,"body":"is so strong in this one."},{"startTime":32.852,"endTime":35.142,"body":"You have to wonder why they didn't"},{"startTime":32.852,"endTime":35.142,"body":"send it back to the kitchen."},{"startTime":35.492,"endTime":36.202,"body":"All right, here we go."},{"startTime":36.503,"endTime":39.433,"body":"It says the title of the post,"},{"startTime":36.503,"endTime":39.433,"body":"which was posted about a month ago."},{"startTime":39.433,"endTime":42.893,"body":"Cause again, I let stuff simmer down"},{"startTime":39.433,"endTime":42.893,"body":"before we bring it into the podcasts"},{"startTime":42.893,"endTime":47.383,"body":"here was my advice on how to be a"},{"startTime":42.893,"endTime":47.383,"body":"terrible, but valuable product manager."},{"startTime":47.383,"endTime":48.503,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":48.553,"endTime":48.983,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":49.063,"endTime":50.333,"body":"I know you'll be with me on this one."},{"startTime":50.373,"endTime":54.383,"body":"So I don't know how we're going to"},{"startTime":50.373,"endTime":54.383,"body":"adapt our format to this, but I figure"},{"startTime":54.683,"endTime":58.393,"body":"as I read things, you can sort of"},{"startTime":54.683,"endTime":58.393,"body":"figure out how to take his side and"},{"startTime":58.393,"endTime":59.482,"body":"then I'll, we'll see what happened."},{"startTime":59.532,"endTime":61.363,"body":"let's read it and figure out"},{"startTime":59.532,"endTime":61.363,"body":"who's going to take whose side."},{"startTime":61.543,"endTime":61.793,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":62.043,"endTime":65.693,"body":"he says one of the cruelest lessons I've"},{"startTime":62.043,"endTime":65.693,"body":"learned as a PM is that success comes"},{"startTime":65.693,"endTime":67.593,"body":"in two forms and they rarely align."},{"startTime":67.893,"endTime":71.263,"body":"Number one, being a good PM,"},{"startTime":67.893,"endTime":71.263,"body":"driving meaningful impact on"},{"startTime":71.263,"endTime":72.493,"body":"the business and its KPIs."},{"startTime":72.723,"endTime":77.652,"body":"And number two, being a valuable PM,"},{"startTime":72.723,"endTime":77.652,"body":"ensuring leadership sees you as valuable."},{"startTime":77.952,"endTime":82.662,"body":"Yeah, when you say cruelest lesson,"},{"startTime":77.952,"endTime":82.662,"body":"at first I heard coolest lesson."},{"startTime":82.972,"endTime":84.302,"body":"It's cruelest."},{"startTime":84.362,"endTime":85.892,"body":"I mean, it's pretty cool."},{"startTime":86.052,"endTime":86.822,"body":"Yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":87.112,"endTime":87.532,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":87.722,"endTime":88.632,"body":"So that's interesting."},{"startTime":88.642,"endTime":92.262,"body":"Meaningful impact and ensuring that"},{"startTime":88.642,"endTime":92.262,"body":"leadership sees you as valuable."},{"startTime":92.562,"endTime":96.622,"body":"Before I read anything else,  let's"},{"startTime":92.562,"endTime":96.622,"body":"start the clock on just this category"},{"startTime":96.622,"endTime":98.562,"body":"of like, is this a false dichotomy?"},{"startTime":98.562,"endTime":103.342,"body":"Hey, listen, you can either be a"},{"startTime":98.562,"endTime":103.342,"body":"good meaning impactful, or you can be"},{"startTime":103.342,"endTime":106.412,"body":"someone that leadership likes like, and"},{"startTime":103.342,"endTime":106.412,"body":"they're, they're not, you can't do both."},{"startTime":106.792,"endTime":107.652,"body":"I'm all in on this."},{"startTime":107.672,"endTime":110.672,"body":", if leadership likes you, it really"},{"startTime":107.672,"endTime":110.672,"body":"doesn't matter how good you are."},{"startTime":111.032,"endTime":114.172,"body":"So you're there to stay., that's"},{"startTime":111.032,"endTime":114.172,"body":"what you see all the time."},{"startTime":114.172,"endTime":116.972,"body":"People that remain and you're not out."},{"startTime":117.358,"endTime":122.287,"body":"It  doesn't matter how good of"},{"startTime":117.358,"endTime":122.287,"body":"a person you are in terms of"},{"startTime":122.667,"endTime":124.567,"body":"your product management prowess."},{"startTime":124.847,"endTime":126.837,"body":"As long as leadership likes"},{"startTime":124.847,"endTime":126.837,"body":"you, you will prevail."},{"startTime":127.137,"endTime":131.327,"body":"And when leadership goes, you probably"},{"startTime":127.137,"endTime":131.327,"body":"go with them to their next landing spot."},{"startTime":131.497,"endTime":132.757,"body":"Is there a counterpoint for that?"},{"startTime":132.807,"endTime":135.987,"body":"I think the counterpoint for that is"},{"startTime":132.807,"endTime":135.987,"body":"this is a false dichotomy to start with."},{"startTime":135.987,"endTime":139.357,"body":"If you have the choice between  playing"},{"startTime":135.987,"endTime":139.357,"body":"golf with the CEO and actually being"},{"startTime":139.357,"endTime":142.907,"body":"good at your job and you can only do one"},{"startTime":139.357,"endTime":142.907,"body":"or the other, why are you in the spot"},{"startTime":142.907,"endTime":143.947,"body":"where you can only do one or the other?"},{"startTime":143.947,"endTime":148.607,"body":"are you making a statement that the PM"},{"startTime":143.947,"endTime":148.607,"body":"role is inherently flawed where you're"},{"startTime":148.777,"endTime":150.247,"body":"responsible for so much in the business?"},{"startTime":150.497,"endTime":152.387,"body":"It's just not possible"},{"startTime":150.497,"endTime":152.387,"body":"to be successful at all."},{"startTime":152.387,"endTime":153.627,"body":"Because if that's your point."},{"startTime":153.927,"endTime":154.767,"body":"It's a really good point."},{"startTime":154.767,"endTime":158.387,"body":"But also I have to challenge I"},{"startTime":154.767,"endTime":158.387,"body":"think you're doing too much and"},{"startTime":158.727,"endTime":159.677,"body":"you have other problems here."},{"startTime":159.677,"endTime":162.797,"body":"it might be a little early in the"},{"startTime":159.677,"endTime":162.797,"body":"podcast to say this, but if you are"},{"startTime":162.797,"endTime":166.197,"body":"doing that and you find yourself in"},{"startTime":162.797,"endTime":166.197,"body":"this situation, keep that as we updated."},{"startTime":166.407,"endTime":170.777,"body":"I think in this scenario what happens"},{"startTime":166.407,"endTime":170.777,"body":"is if you're in an organization where."},{"startTime":171.077,"endTime":175.867,"body":"Leadership, CEO, whoever it is,"},{"startTime":171.077,"endTime":175.867,"body":"they are only looking to make"},{"startTime":175.947,"endTime":177.467,"body":"personal relationships with you."},{"startTime":177.707,"endTime":181.727,"body":"And if you can really kind of hit"},{"startTime":177.707,"endTime":181.727,"body":"it off with them it really doesn't"},{"startTime":181.727,"endTime":185.157,"body":"matter to them what you do, it's"},{"startTime":181.727,"endTime":185.157,"body":"who you are at the end of the day."},{"startTime":185.467,"endTime":187.847,"body":"So you're this person that they like."},{"startTime":188.007,"endTime":190.337,"body":"You're all in the right"},{"startTime":188.007,"endTime":190.337,"body":"places with them, right?"},{"startTime":190.337,"endTime":192.217,"body":"You play golf with them, You will prevail."},{"startTime":192.267,"endTime":193.987,"body":"you will survive, right?"},{"startTime":194.437,"endTime":199.527,"body":"Contrast that with somebody who"},{"startTime":194.437,"endTime":199.527,"body":"is not in that social sphere,"},{"startTime":199.577,"endTime":201.467,"body":"but is very good at their job."},{"startTime":201.777,"endTime":204.937,"body":"They would have to try so much"},{"startTime":201.777,"endTime":204.937,"body":"harder to be noticed that they"},{"startTime":204.937,"endTime":206.677,"body":"can make a difference, right?"},{"startTime":207.007,"endTime":207.877,"body":", that's just my take."},{"startTime":208.087,"endTime":210.587,"body":"Again, it's contextual"},{"startTime":208.087,"endTime":210.587,"body":"to the organization."},{"startTime":210.587,"endTime":214.457,"body":"Some organizations have other"},{"startTime":210.587,"endTime":214.457,"body":"people that will actually notice"},{"startTime":214.457,"endTime":219.107,"body":"you and they will talk about you"},{"startTime":214.457,"endTime":219.107,"body":"and if that happens great, right?"},{"startTime":219.137,"endTime":221.837,"body":"But , I think it's horses"},{"startTime":219.137,"endTime":221.837,"body":"with courses really."},{"startTime":221.937,"endTime":225.252,"body":"we did a podcast Where we"},{"startTime":221.937,"endTime":225.252,"body":"talked about Westrom's three"},{"startTime":225.552,"endTime":228.492,"body":"organization types, I'm trying to"},{"startTime":225.552,"endTime":228.492,"body":"remember the name of the podcast."},{"startTime":228.522,"endTime":232.102,"body":"It was Arguing Idol 195,"},{"startTime":228.522,"endTime":232.102,"body":"The Tyranny of Plans."},{"startTime":232.362,"endTime":234.542,"body":"We talked about Westrom's . Three"},{"startTime":232.362,"endTime":234.542,"body":"types of organizations."},{"startTime":234.592,"endTime":241.103,"body":"Bureaucratic generative, and oh boy, it"},{"startTime":234.592,"endTime":241.103,"body":"wasn't psychopathic, it was pathological."},{"startTime":241.403,"endTime":241.743,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":242.183,"endTime":242.993,"body":"I agree with you."},{"startTime":243.293,"endTime":247.853,"body":"But only from the perspective of, if"},{"startTime":243.293,"endTime":247.853,"body":"you're in a pathological organization,"},{"startTime":248.233,"endTime":252.113,"body":"then yeah, I mean, this is like, , why"},{"startTime":248.233,"endTime":252.113,"body":"are you in a pathological, oh,  the fix"},{"startTime":252.113,"endTime":256.855,"body":"is not like,  how do I represent myself"},{"startTime":252.113,"endTime":256.855,"body":"better in a pathological organization?"},{"startTime":256.965,"endTime":259.645,"body":"The fix is, why are you still"},{"startTime":256.965,"endTime":259.645,"body":"in a pathological organization?"},{"startTime":259.94,"endTime":263.15,"body":"Well, I think you're assuming that"},{"startTime":259.94,"endTime":263.15,"body":"people  in that situation even"},{"startTime":263.15,"endTime":264.61,"body":"recognize that they're there, right?"},{"startTime":264.92,"endTime":269.01,"body":"And that's the same thing with the"},{"startTime":264.92,"endTime":269.01,"body":"relationship metaphor  if you know you're"},{"startTime":269.01,"endTime":270.44,"body":"there, you can do something about it."},{"startTime":270.47,"endTime":273.57,"body":"Oftentimes, you're just way in there,"},{"startTime":270.47,"endTime":273.57,"body":"and don't realize it, He was just"},{"startTime":273.57,"endTime":274.99,"body":"trying to survive day in day out."},{"startTime":275.1,"endTime":276.02,"body":"so that was the intro."},{"startTime":276.03,"endTime":276.28,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":276.28,"endTime":277.28,"body":"That was the longest intro ever."},{"startTime":277.28,"endTime":278.46,"body":"Let's talk about the segment."},{"startTime":278.76,"endTime":282.33,"body":"He says  in an ideal world, focusing"},{"startTime":278.76,"endTime":282.33,"body":"on number one, me driving impact,"},{"startTime":282.33,"endTime":285.18,"body":"."},{"startTime":282.33,"endTime":285.18,"body":"KPIs, whatever should be enough."},{"startTime":285.18,"endTime":289.37,"body":"But in reality, never too often"},{"startTime":285.18,"endTime":289.37,"body":"determines your career trajectory, jobs,"},{"startTime":289.37,"endTime":291.38,"body":"stability, regardless of actual impact."},{"startTime":291.68,"endTime":294.61,"body":"Yeah, and that's the point I was trying"},{"startTime":291.68,"endTime":294.61,"body":"to make in a lot of organizations."},{"startTime":294.62,"endTime":296.99,"body":"It really doesn't matter"},{"startTime":294.62,"endTime":296.99,"body":"what you bring to the table."},{"startTime":297.03,"endTime":301.56,"body":"It is what relationships you vectored"},{"startTime":297.03,"endTime":301.56,"body":"in with those that matter, right?"},{"startTime":301.82,"endTime":306.27,"body":"And they will determine that those"},{"startTime":301.82,"endTime":306.27,"body":"relationships will be the determinant"},{"startTime":306.31,"endTime":310.54,"body":"of Your survival there or whether"},{"startTime":306.31,"endTime":310.54,"body":"you thrive there or not, right?"},{"startTime":310.57,"endTime":314.08,"body":"Well, let's see the rest of his evidence"},{"startTime":310.57,"endTime":314.08,"body":"in this section he says I spent nine"},{"startTime":314.11,"endTime":318.04,"body":"years as a PM across six companies of"},{"startTime":314.11,"endTime":318.04,"body":"varying sizes nothing in FAANG  most"},{"startTime":318.04,"endTime":319.68,"body":"people are not FAANG product managers."},{"startTime":319.68,"endTime":320.69,"body":"So that's normal, right?"},{"startTime":320.99,"endTime":321.76,"body":"I have no pedigree."},{"startTime":321.76,"endTime":322.86,"body":"I'm sort of an average Joe."},{"startTime":322.86,"endTime":323.44,"body":"I've been fired."},{"startTime":323.44,"endTime":323.85,"body":"I've quit."},{"startTime":324.08,"endTime":324.73,"body":"I've been laid off."},{"startTime":324.76,"endTime":326.5,"body":"I've held multiple PM jobs at once."},{"startTime":326.56,"endTime":327.25,"body":"That's interesting."},{"startTime":327.55,"endTime":328.91,"body":"Mostly working remotely."},{"startTime":328.95,"endTime":331.02,"body":"The longest I've stayed in"},{"startTime":328.95,"endTime":331.02,"body":"one role was five years."},{"startTime":331.23,"endTime":332.5,"body":"Never had trouble finding a job,"},{"startTime":332.73,"endTime":336.79,"body":"and there have been no periods of"},{"startTime":332.73,"endTime":336.79,"body":"unemployment that weren't voluntary."},{"startTime":337.29,"endTime":340.54,"body":"I used to consider myself a solid PM,"},{"startTime":337.29,"endTime":340.54,"body":"but I've become pretty detached from the"},{"startTime":340.55,"endTime":346.07,"body":"impact part of the job and experimented"},{"startTime":340.55,"endTime":346.07,"body":"the last few years with solely focusing"},{"startTime":346.08,"endTime":347.76,"body":"on the appearing valuable part."},{"startTime":348.01,"endTime":350.57,"body":"I typically work 15"},{"startTime":348.01,"endTime":350.57,"body":"through 20 hours per week."},{"startTime":350.78,"endTime":353.95,"body":"My salaries have ranged"},{"startTime":350.78,"endTime":353.95,"body":"from 140K to 300K per role."},{"startTime":354.14,"endTime":357.84,"body":"So, non FAANG up in the 300K"},{"startTime":354.14,"endTime":357.84,"body":"range, that's pretty out of norm"},{"startTime":357.88,"endTime":359.42,"body":"unless I'm out of touch, I guess."},{"startTime":359.84,"endTime":362.86,"body":"It is out of norm, especially"},{"startTime":359.84,"endTime":362.86,"body":"if you're doing what he says,"},{"startTime":362.88,"endTime":364.75,"body":"which is just playing the part."},{"startTime":364.78,"endTime":365.44,"body":"He's an IC."},{"startTime":365.44,"endTime":367.06,"body":"not a director of product management."},{"startTime":367.06,"endTime":369.55,"body":"Maybe he's a senior product manager or"},{"startTime":367.06,"endTime":369.55,"body":"whatever, but again, like the amount"},{"startTime":369.55,"endTime":370.88,"body":"of burnout that I'm sensing here"},{"startTime":370.94,"endTime":375.28,"body":"so, let's talk about his claim that he's"},{"startTime":370.94,"endTime":375.28,"body":"been able to kind of leap jobs every"},{"startTime":375.28,"endTime":380.12,"body":"couple years long as he stayed in one"},{"startTime":375.28,"endTime":380.12,"body":"place Just five years and a job and and"},{"startTime":380.13,"endTime":383.85,"body":"he's mostly remote in all these roles"},{"startTime":380.13,"endTime":383.85,"body":"making anywhere between 140 and 300"},{"startTime":383.86,"endTime":388.04,"body":"depending on where you know, what job"},{"startTime":383.86,"endTime":388.04,"body":"he's me I although that one that 300 might"},{"startTime":388.04,"endTime":390.23,"body":"be one night my book might be the time."},{"startTime":390.23,"endTime":392.82,"body":"He's double dipping That might"},{"startTime":390.23,"endTime":392.82,"body":"be what he's talking about Okay."},{"startTime":392.82,"endTime":395.83,"body":"So first of all, I doubt without"},{"startTime":392.82,"endTime":395.83,"body":"being able to make an impact."},{"startTime":395.86,"endTime":399.2,"body":"I doubt, well, we don't need to get into"},{"startTime":395.86,"endTime":399.2,"body":"the salary ranges, but I doubt what he's"},{"startTime":399.2,"endTime":402.75,"body":"saying about the salary range for one"},{"startTime":399.2,"endTime":402.75,"body":"job making that much when you're not"},{"startTime":402.75,"endTime":404.35,"body":"making an impact, but you never know."},{"startTime":404.35,"endTime":405.25,"body":"He might only stay there."},{"startTime":405.32,"endTime":409.02,"body":"He might've gotten 300 K salary,"},{"startTime":405.32,"endTime":409.02,"body":"stay there for four months until"},{"startTime":409.08,"endTime":409.96,"body":"you know, they washed them out."},{"startTime":410.03,"endTime":413.68,"body":"So in arguing as a one 99, where we"},{"startTime":410.03,"endTime":413.68,"body":"talked about Deming, I think it was"},{"startTime":413.68,"endTime":415.33,"body":"one where we talked about Deming."},{"startTime":415.63,"endTime":418.92,"body":"One of the things podcast for the"},{"startTime":415.63,"endTime":418.92,"body":"people that are not going to go looking"},{"startTime":418.92,"endTime":421.53,"body":"in that podcast, listen to an hour"},{"startTime":418.92,"endTime":421.53,"body":"and hour and 50 minutes, whatever"},{"startTime":421.53,"endTime":424.89,"body":"podcast is one of the things Deming"},{"startTime":421.53,"endTime":424.89,"body":"warned about was this management class"},{"startTime":424.89,"endTime":428.68,"body":"that would work there for 18 months,"},{"startTime":424.89,"endTime":428.68,"body":"anywhere between six, 18 months, two"},{"startTime":428.68,"endTime":431.82,"body":"years at the most, and then kind of"},{"startTime":428.68,"endTime":431.82,"body":"wash out because they're not successful."},{"startTime":432.27,"endTime":435.52,"body":"They don't have the skill to be"},{"startTime":432.27,"endTime":435.52,"body":"successful in that environment."},{"startTime":435.82,"endTime":438.13,"body":"Maybe they're like this command and"},{"startTime":435.82,"endTime":438.13,"body":"control mentality, and they don't"},{"startTime":438.13,"endTime":441.45,"body":"understand why squeezing harder is"},{"startTime":438.13,"endTime":441.45,"body":"not getting any more productivity out"},{"startTime":441.45,"endTime":444.95,"body":"of their assembly line  I'm hearing"},{"startTime":441.45,"endTime":444.95,"body":"this  coming through I keep moving on"},{"startTime":445.24,"endTime":448.24,"body":"getting some money from wherever and"},{"startTime":445.24,"endTime":448.24,"body":"then going on to the next thing and"},{"startTime":448.24,"endTime":452.21,"body":"never like I don't hear any like I need"},{"startTime":448.24,"endTime":452.21,"body":"To deal with my burnout like I don't"},{"startTime":452.21,"endTime":454.35,"body":"hear any strategies in this granted."},{"startTime":454.35,"endTime":457.59,"body":"It's the intro And he will give some"},{"startTime":454.35,"endTime":457.59,"body":"points and strategies later, I take a"},{"startTime":457.59,"endTime":461.23,"body":"lot of cynicism in a bad way from this."},{"startTime":461.61,"endTime":462.26,"body":"How can you not?"},{"startTime":462.36,"endTime":463.65,"body":"I concur with you right there."},{"startTime":463.87,"endTime":468.36,"body":"So if this is a reality where you"},{"startTime":463.87,"endTime":468.36,"body":"can get that by just appearances."},{"startTime":468.54,"endTime":469.14,"body":"Sign me up."},{"startTime":469.44,"endTime":470.12,"body":"Seriously."},{"startTime":470.17,"endTime":473.15,"body":"I will definitely take the other"},{"startTime":470.17,"endTime":473.15,"body":"side of this argument if a business"},{"startTime":473.16,"endTime":478.48,"body":"is run in a way where, Whatever"},{"startTime":473.16,"endTime":478.48,"body":"you do is ambivalent to impact."},{"startTime":478.78,"endTime":480.29,"body":"I don't think I want to work there."},{"startTime":480.3,"endTime":483.05,"body":"Where leadership can't tell between"},{"startTime":480.3,"endTime":483.05,"body":"the people that are producing"},{"startTime":483.27,"endTime":484.15,"body":"and who are not producing."},{"startTime":484.2,"endTime":487.38,"body":"Forget being data driven"},{"startTime":484.2,"endTime":487.38,"body":"just like, there's money."},{"startTime":487.68,"endTime":488.65,"body":"There's bottom line."},{"startTime":489.07,"endTime":492.3,"body":"Like the final thing when you sit down"},{"startTime":489.07,"endTime":492.3,"body":"and look at the numbers, there is a bottom"},{"startTime":492.3,"endTime":496.14,"body":"line to look at we hired this person, we"},{"startTime":492.3,"endTime":496.14,"body":"pay them this much, the product line was"},{"startTime":496.14,"endTime":499.13,"body":"producing this much when they started, the"},{"startTime":496.14,"endTime":499.13,"body":"product line is producing this much now."},{"startTime":499.13,"endTime":501.54,"body":"Or, or maybe the product line is"},{"startTime":499.13,"endTime":501.54,"body":"supporting this many customers"},{"startTime":501.54,"endTime":504.81,"body":"now with the same amount of"},{"startTime":501.54,"endTime":504.81,"body":"money going, , there are numbers."},{"startTime":505.29,"endTime":508.49,"body":"I guess you could work at a place that"},{"startTime":505.29,"endTime":508.49,"body":"doesn't look at the bottom line, doesn't"},{"startTime":508.49,"endTime":511.62,"body":"have any kind of KPIs or whatever"},{"startTime":508.49,"endTime":511.62,"body":"for impact numbers, doesn't use any"},{"startTime":511.62,"endTime":513.17,"body":"kind of OKR system or whatever, like."},{"startTime":513.47,"endTime":514.27,"body":"I don't know about this one."},{"startTime":514.27,"endTime":516.73,"body":"You're not going to make a"},{"startTime":514.27,"endTime":516.73,"body":"career at a place like this."},{"startTime":516.86,"endTime":518.57,"body":"this is a hopping point, right?"},{"startTime":518.58,"endTime":520.53,"body":"You're going to not last that long here."},{"startTime":520.83,"endTime":524.2,"body":"If you keep doing this and apparently"},{"startTime":520.83,"endTime":524.2,"body":"from the intro, it sounds like."},{"startTime":524.675,"endTime":525.455,"body":"That's what's been happening."},{"startTime":525.465,"endTime":528.415,"body":"Let me throw out a cohesive argument"},{"startTime":525.465,"endTime":528.415,"body":"for you to push back against."},{"startTime":528.715,"endTime":529.455,"body":"It's not great."},{"startTime":529.515,"endTime":530.585,"body":"I'm gonna preface that It's fine."},{"startTime":530.635,"endTime":533.095,"body":"when we go into the points"},{"startTime":530.635,"endTime":533.095,"body":"section, it's gonna be negative"},{"startTime":533.145,"endTime":535.895,"body":"10, 000 points for having a not"},{"startTime":533.145,"endTime":535.895,"body":"great argument that I prefaced."},{"startTime":535.895,"endTime":538.925,"body":"I'm gonna be like, Brian,  this is"},{"startTime":535.895,"endTime":538.925,"body":"the kind of feedback I get at my job."},{"startTime":538.975,"endTime":540.695,"body":"don't preface it to be"},{"startTime":538.975,"endTime":540.695,"body":"like, this is not great."},{"startTime":540.695,"endTime":541.595,"body":"Just say what you want to say."},{"startTime":541.645,"endTime":544.805,"body":"Listen, that's good feedback, but"},{"startTime":541.645,"endTime":544.805,"body":"also it is a terrible point, and you"},{"startTime":544.805,"endTime":548.245,"body":"should know to be ready for a terrible"},{"startTime":544.805,"endTime":548.245,"body":"point with a terrible argument."},{"startTime":548.365,"endTime":549.315,"body":"You have me warned."},{"startTime":549.745,"endTime":551.095,"body":"Yeah, you had me at terrible."},{"startTime":551.525,"endTime":552.245,"body":"Sign me on!"},{"startTime":552.245,"endTime":553.595,"body":"I only want to hear terrible pitches."},{"startTime":554.005,"endTime":554.955,"body":"I forgot what I was going to say."},{"startTime":555.375,"endTime":557.975,"body":"If you're a product manager,  I"},{"startTime":555.375,"endTime":557.975,"body":"understand you've moved every"},{"startTime":557.975,"endTime":559.335,"body":"two years, 18 months, whatever."},{"startTime":559.335,"endTime":562.595,"body":"you're trying to step function up your"},{"startTime":559.335,"endTime":562.595,"body":"maximum earnings or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":562.595,"endTime":562.83,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":562.99,"endTime":566.22,"body":"Cool I'm all about cashing down"},{"startTime":562.99,"endTime":566.22,"body":"and burrowing out, as we know."},{"startTime":566.33,"endTime":570.28,"body":"But also like, don't expect"},{"startTime":566.33,"endTime":570.28,"body":"to get better at your job."},{"startTime":570.58,"endTime":575.75,"body":"Like getting in quickly like scaling your"},{"startTime":570.58,"endTime":575.75,"body":"supporters, making an impact, like all"},{"startTime":575.75,"endTime":579.29,"body":"the stuff that you have to do as a PM to"},{"startTime":575.75,"endTime":579.29,"body":"be a good, impactful PM, don't expect to"},{"startTime":579.29,"endTime":582.75,"body":"get better at that when you're basically"},{"startTime":579.29,"endTime":582.75,"body":"saying like, well, nobody cares about"},{"startTime":582.75,"endTime":584.06,"body":"that, so I'm not going to care about it."},{"startTime":584.36,"endTime":587.34,"body":"You're going to float from place to"},{"startTime":584.36,"endTime":587.34,"body":"place again, just like Demi Warren,"},{"startTime":587.46,"endTime":589.62,"body":"you're going to float from place to"},{"startTime":587.46,"endTime":589.62,"body":"place, you're never going to be more"},{"startTime":589.62,"endTime":593.53,"body":"effective, you're not going to have these"},{"startTime":589.62,"endTime":593.53,"body":"great skill sets and like, hopefully"},{"startTime":593.53,"endTime":597.22,"body":"the market never evolves to a point"},{"startTime":593.53,"endTime":597.22,"body":"where like more is expected from PMs."},{"startTime":597.52,"endTime":599.93,"body":"Because then you have a real"},{"startTime":597.52,"endTime":599.93,"body":"difficulty staying in the field."},{"startTime":600.38,"endTime":605.17,"body":"I would argue you're actually not even"},{"startTime":600.38,"endTime":605.17,"body":"worried about your career at this stage."},{"startTime":605.18,"endTime":607.6,"body":"All you're doing is just"},{"startTime":605.18,"endTime":607.6,"body":"simply moving from job to job."},{"startTime":607.64,"endTime":607.85,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":608.14,"endTime":610.52,"body":"You're not going to get better"},{"startTime":608.14,"endTime":610.52,"body":"at anything in your craft, right?"},{"startTime":610.52,"endTime":615.21,"body":"Because that is what you're sacrificing"},{"startTime":610.52,"endTime":615.21,"body":"in order to make a quick buck and"},{"startTime":615.21,"endTime":618.33,"body":"then move to the next position"},{"startTime":615.21,"endTime":618.33,"body":"leveraging the previous one, right?"},{"startTime":618.33,"endTime":618.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":618.63,"endTime":622.48,"body":"And that's typically what we see"},{"startTime":618.63,"endTime":622.48,"body":"quite often, sadly, it's pretty rare"},{"startTime":622.51,"endTime":628.56,"body":"where a PM, a park manager stays"},{"startTime":622.51,"endTime":628.56,"body":"at a location at a job is really"},{"startTime":628.56,"endTime":630.71,"body":"working at improving their craft."},{"startTime":630.86,"endTime":636.06,"body":"I mean, for every one of those, there's"},{"startTime":630.86,"endTime":636.06,"body":"several of the other type, sadly, right?"},{"startTime":636.31,"endTime":638.22,"body":"That's my observation, at least."},{"startTime":638.655,"endTime":644.645,"body":"But then again, if I can always get a"},{"startTime":638.655,"endTime":644.645,"body":"job and only be out of work voluntarily"},{"startTime":644.685,"endTime":647.795,"body":"when I need to take a break, I'm great."},{"startTime":647.815,"endTime":648.245,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":648.275,"endTime":649.285,"body":"Why not keep doing that?"},{"startTime":649.435,"endTime":649.715,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":649.955,"endTime":653.725,"body":"So not that I'm actually advocating this,"},{"startTime":649.955,"endTime":653.725,"body":"but I'm taking the other side of the"},{"startTime":653.725,"endTime":658.475,"body":"arguing agile argument You don't have"},{"startTime":653.725,"endTime":658.475,"body":"to necessarily care about your craft."},{"startTime":658.865,"endTime":661.145,"body":"You can just simply move"},{"startTime":658.865,"endTime":661.145,"body":"from one place to another."},{"startTime":661.415,"endTime":664.475,"body":"And all you're doing is resume"},{"startTime":661.415,"endTime":664.475,"body":"padding based on where you've"},{"startTime":664.485,"endTime":666.255,"body":"been and we've seen a lot of that."},{"startTime":666.555,"endTime":667.875,"body":"We're still seeing a lot of that."},{"startTime":668.305,"endTime":672.385,"body":"You still see, even today, people that"},{"startTime":668.305,"endTime":672.385,"body":"are doing TED talks that have never"},{"startTime":672.395,"endTime":674.805,"body":"actually managed a product in their life."},{"startTime":674.835,"endTime":679.37,"body":"Yeah it's a shame, but you see that,"},{"startTime":674.835,"endTime":679.37,"body":"well that's the end of the career"},{"startTime":679.37,"endTime":683.99,"body":"implications slash like episode, like"},{"startTime":679.37,"endTime":683.99,"body":"fundamentals of, of his dichotomy,"},{"startTime":684.29,"endTime":685.66,"body":"that's the end of that segment."},{"startTime":686.04,"endTime":689.58,"body":"I just want to call attention to, I"},{"startTime":686.04,"endTime":689.58,"body":"don't know if I'll award a no points."},{"startTime":689.58,"endTime":692.6,"body":"This is like the, I hope both"},{"startTime":689.58,"endTime":692.6,"body":"teams had fun category where zero"},{"startTime":692.6,"endTime":693.97,"body":"points are awarded to either team."},{"startTime":694.25,"endTime":694.72,"body":"Or a million."},{"startTime":694.72,"endTime":697.97,"body":"I was going to say I docked myself 10,"},{"startTime":694.72,"endTime":697.97,"body":"000, so I guess technically you win."},{"startTime":697.97,"endTime":698.55,"body":"So there we go."},{"startTime":699.02,"endTime":699.35,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":699.35,"endTime":702.48,"body":"So we're going to move on to the"},{"startTime":699.35,"endTime":702.48,"body":"next section, which is just talking"},{"startTime":702.48,"endTime":706.07,"body":"about, he throws out a lot of tactics"},{"startTime":702.48,"endTime":706.07,"body":"in this section that work for him."},{"startTime":706.08,"endTime":707.78,"body":"We're going to read through"},{"startTime":706.08,"endTime":707.78,"body":"his tactics and discuss them."},{"startTime":707.78,"endTime":708.73,"body":"That'll be the next section."},{"startTime":709.08,"endTime":710.14,"body":"He gives out tactics."},{"startTime":710.14,"endTime":713.75,"body":"He calls them tips on"},{"startTime":710.14,"endTime":713.75,"body":"looking valuable as a PM."},{"startTime":713.8,"endTime":714.36,"body":"So here we go."},{"startTime":714.47,"endTime":716.55,"body":"We've segmented these into a"},{"startTime":714.47,"endTime":716.55,"body":"couple of different categories."},{"startTime":717.045,"endTime":719.815,"body":"Category one is going to"},{"startTime":717.045,"endTime":719.815,"body":"be communication tactics."},{"startTime":720.165,"endTime":722.105,"body":"You know, I love communication tactics"},{"startTime":722.405,"endTime":724.445,"body":"So segment one of his points."},{"startTime":724.445,"endTime":724.715,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":724.715,"endTime":727.315,"body":"He says, number one, he said,"},{"startTime":724.715,"endTime":727.315,"body":"well, he's not number one."},{"startTime":727.315,"endTime":728.515,"body":"He says, stay positive."},{"startTime":728.575,"endTime":731.255,"body":"Always highlight silver linings"},{"startTime":728.575,"endTime":731.255,"body":"no matter how bad things are."},{"startTime":731.255,"endTime":732.855,"body":"Don't say anything negative about ideas."},{"startTime":733.115,"endTime":738.245,"body":"People or companies period  this is"},{"startTime":733.115,"endTime":738.245,"body":"a nod to the fact that you're not a"},{"startTime":738.275,"endTime":741.775,"body":"negative nanny You're always gonna"},{"startTime":738.275,"endTime":741.775,"body":"say good things no matter what right?"},{"startTime":742.135,"endTime":747.265,"body":"Hey, you fell down and you know You"},{"startTime":742.135,"endTime":747.265,"body":"fell into mud, but it was clean mud."},{"startTime":747.745,"endTime":752.345,"body":"corporate America has a whole industry"},{"startTime":747.745,"endTime":752.345,"body":"on positivity and people running"},{"startTime":752.345,"endTime":754.635,"body":"companies eat this stuff up like crazy."},{"startTime":754.635,"endTime":757.015,"body":"And I will say am I defending him now?"},{"startTime":757.015,"endTime":758.035,"body":"Is that where I am now?"},{"startTime":758.255,"endTime":759.415,"body":"Sorry, I'm defending him now."},{"startTime":759.455,"endTime":760.175,"body":"I'm on his side."},{"startTime":760.225,"endTime":762.315,"body":"wait, do you want to,"},{"startTime":760.225,"endTime":762.315,"body":"are you against this?"},{"startTime":762.325,"endTime":765.785,"body":"I'm going to argue that what he's"},{"startTime":762.325,"endTime":765.785,"body":"doing is the right thing to do."},{"startTime":765.786,"endTime":768.595,"body":"If you give a damn about your"},{"startTime":765.786,"endTime":768.595,"body":"job, not your career necessarily."},{"startTime":768.595,"endTime":768.785,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":769.035,"endTime":770.285,"body":"You, you, you, all right."},{"startTime":770.71,"endTime":773.81,"body":"You take this one away then, because I"},{"startTime":770.71,"endTime":773.81,"body":"want to argue the other side of this one."},{"startTime":774.11,"endTime":775.36,"body":". Stay positive."},{"startTime":775.59,"endTime":778.42,"body":"If you're a negative"},{"startTime":775.59,"endTime":778.42,"body":"nanny, you will stick out."},{"startTime":778.67,"endTime":780.41,"body":"People will see you as a naysayer."},{"startTime":780.81,"endTime":785.12,"body":"Even if the news is terrible,"},{"startTime":780.81,"endTime":785.12,"body":"being a naysayer is a bad thing."},{"startTime":785.42,"endTime":788.8,"body":"Because when the news is bad,"},{"startTime":785.42,"endTime":788.8,"body":"and you say, well we're doing"},{"startTime":788.8,"endTime":790.17,"body":"pretty badly, this and that."},{"startTime":790.47,"endTime":793.57,"body":"Automatically, as a PM,"},{"startTime":790.47,"endTime":793.57,"body":"it comes down on you."},{"startTime":793.92,"endTime":798.39,"body":"So, even if things are really bad,"},{"startTime":793.92,"endTime":798.39,"body":"if you stay positive, , this is going"},{"startTime":798.39,"endTime":799.91,"body":"to rub off on people around you,"},{"startTime":800.25,"endTime":801.98,"body":"a PM is saying they're not so bad."},{"startTime":802.28,"endTime":803.82,"body":"It can't be that bad, right?"},{"startTime":804.11,"endTime":809.25,"body":"So, positivity, as he says here,"},{"startTime":804.11,"endTime":809.25,"body":"positivity creates psychological safety."},{"startTime":809.26,"endTime":812.53,"body":"Everything's fine, don't worry,,"},{"startTime":809.26,"endTime":812.53,"body":"if you're in the survival game,"},{"startTime":812.54,"endTime":813.93,"body":"this is a great comps tactic."},{"startTime":814.11,"endTime":817.88,"body":"The way we've organized the"},{"startTime":814.11,"endTime":817.88,"body":"notes frames it as positivity."},{"startTime":817.93,"endTime":818.19,"body":"Positivity."},{"startTime":818.51,"endTime":819.81,"body":"create psychological safety."},{"startTime":819.83,"endTime":820.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":820.43,"endTime":821.87,"body":"I don't believe that's true."},{"startTime":822.17,"endTime":824.78,"body":"I think lots of hard work over"},{"startTime":822.17,"endTime":824.78,"body":"a long period of time is what"},{"startTime":824.78,"endTime":825.92,"body":"creates psychological safety."},{"startTime":826.22,"endTime":829.91,"body":"I don't think it's , positivity alone,"},{"startTime":826.22,"endTime":829.91,"body":"and that's, I'm not even just saying that"},{"startTime":829.91,"endTime":833.78,"body":"because I can't say positivity, I think"},{"startTime":829.91,"endTime":833.78,"body":"you have to talk about the negatives."},{"startTime":834.19,"endTime":836.95,"body":"I think we really dug into"},{"startTime":834.19,"endTime":836.95,"body":"this one, which, which, by the"},{"startTime":836.95,"endTime":839.05,"body":"way, deserves its own episode."},{"startTime":839.051,"endTime":843.32,"body":"Positivity, because there's a whole"},{"startTime":839.051,"endTime":843.32,"body":"positivity industrial complex."},{"startTime":843.38,"endTime":843.77,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":843.81,"endTime":847.35,"body":"Of people trying to sell books, I"},{"startTime":843.81,"endTime":847.35,"body":"understand what you just said, and"},{"startTime":847.35,"endTime":852.02,"body":"I agree with it, but only from the"},{"startTime":847.35,"endTime":852.02,"body":"perspective of you've got to know what"},{"startTime":852.02,"endTime":856.25,"body":"the field and the sport is like to"},{"startTime":852.02,"endTime":856.25,"body":"play within the rules to get ahead."},{"startTime":856.65,"endTime":860.31,"body":"But in reality, if you're running a"},{"startTime":856.65,"endTime":860.31,"body":"business, and it's just like you by"},{"startTime":860.31,"endTime":864.05,"body":"yourself, solo, you've got to look"},{"startTime":860.31,"endTime":864.05,"body":"at declining revenue quarter over"},{"startTime":864.05,"endTime":865.81,"body":"quarter for the last five quarters."},{"startTime":865.98,"endTime":866.73,"body":"I have a trend."},{"startTime":867.07,"endTime":867.35,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":867.35,"endTime":869.22,"body":"You've got to look at the negative news."},{"startTime":869.26,"endTime":869.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":869.95,"endTime":871.53,"body":"You should, right?"},{"startTime":871.57,"endTime":872.12,"body":"You should."},{"startTime":872.16,"endTime":874.31,"body":"If you care about your craft, you should."},{"startTime":874.72,"endTime":880.34,"body":"this person is really looking to get by"},{"startTime":874.72,"endTime":880.34,"body":"and quickly gloss over all the negative."},{"startTime":880.35,"endTime":885.2,"body":"He's doing it in a disingenuous way"},{"startTime":880.35,"endTime":885.2,"body":"of saying, I'm absolutely never going,"},{"startTime":885.21,"endTime":888.58,"body":"nothing negative is ever going to come"},{"startTime":885.21,"endTime":888.58,"body":"out of my mouth like, this might be a"},{"startTime":888.58,"endTime":892.26,"body":"bad decision or this strategy, might be"},{"startTime":888.58,"endTime":892.26,"body":"time to stop because of the evidence,"},{"startTime":892.26,"endTime":894.07,"body":"He's just saying, don't say anything."},{"startTime":894.37,"endTime":897.94,"body":"He, well, he's saying that always"},{"startTime":894.37,"endTime":897.94,"body":"accentuate the silver lining, right?"},{"startTime":897.94,"endTime":902.86,"body":"So yeah, we have reclining revenues, but"},{"startTime":897.94,"endTime":902.86,"body":"we have increasing adoption, let's say."},{"startTime":903.1,"endTime":904.93,"body":"I understand, but it doesn't"},{"startTime":903.1,"endTime":904.93,"body":"really matter as a metric."},{"startTime":904.93,"endTime":906.88,"body":"He's doing it from a cynical standpoint."},{"startTime":906.89,"endTime":910.13,"body":"He's doing it from a disingenuous"},{"startTime":906.89,"endTime":910.13,"body":"standpoint, but what he's"},{"startTime":910.13,"endTime":915.72,"body":"saying, again, just, just from"},{"startTime":910.13,"endTime":915.72,"body":"cynicism alone, he's just saying."},{"startTime":916.17,"endTime":919.28,"body":"Just don't, let somebody else be the"},{"startTime":916.17,"endTime":919.28,"body":"one that brings up the negative news or"},{"startTime":919.28,"endTime":920.39,"body":"the negative connotation or whatever."},{"startTime":920.59,"endTime":924.49,"body":"Don't be the one that, that,"},{"startTime":920.59,"endTime":924.49,"body":"that, that even, it doesn't even"},{"startTime":924.49,"endTime":925.97,"body":"come out of your mouth ever."},{"startTime":925.98,"endTime":929.53,"body":"He's saying that and probably"},{"startTime":925.98,"endTime":929.53,"body":"also downplay negativity."},{"startTime":929.63,"endTime":931.57,"body":"Anytime there's negativity,"},{"startTime":929.63,"endTime":931.57,"body":"downplay it, right?"},{"startTime":931.87,"endTime":933.39,"body":"It's not so bad, you know?"},{"startTime":933.4,"endTime":934.99,"body":"But he's only doing this to win friends."},{"startTime":935.02,"endTime":935.37,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":935.52,"endTime":937.58,"body":"because that guarantees his longevity."},{"startTime":937.88,"endTime":938.14,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":938.17,"endTime":940.28,"body":"So like that, that's the"},{"startTime":938.17,"endTime":940.28,"body":"end of, that's the end stay"},{"startTime":940.28,"endTime":942.05,"body":"positive okay, I agree with you."},{"startTime":942.05,"endTime":944.5,"body":"Om likes 10 million points to Om."},{"startTime":944.66,"endTime":949.68,"body":"He wins this category, but also with"},{"startTime":944.66,"endTime":949.68,"body":"a star next to it as soon as you start"},{"startTime":949.68,"endTime":954.35,"body":"doing this to get ahead, or as soon as"},{"startTime":949.68,"endTime":954.35,"body":"you have an ulterior motive, not to."},{"startTime":954.8,"endTime":957.69,"body":"Question negative things you"},{"startTime":954.8,"endTime":957.69,"body":"lose a million points you're back"},{"startTime":957.69,"endTime":960.47,"body":"to zero In fact, you might even"},{"startTime":957.69,"endTime":960.47,"body":"be at negative million points"},{"startTime":960.6,"endTime":964.96,"body":"The next category he says is Focus"},{"startTime":960.6,"endTime":964.96,"body":"on vision and ignore execution."},{"startTime":965.3,"endTime":966.25,"body":"I love this one."},{"startTime":966.25,"endTime":967.68,"body":"I want to talk about this one all day."},{"startTime":967.68,"endTime":968.85,"body":"I want to clear my calendar."},{"startTime":969.18,"endTime":971.5,"body":"Siri, set a reminder"},{"startTime":969.18,"endTime":971.5,"body":"and clear my calendar."},{"startTime":971.78,"endTime":975.91,"body":"Incremental improvements grow a"},{"startTime":971.78,"endTime":975.91,"body":"business, but don't grow your profile."},{"startTime":976.14,"endTime":980.2,"body":"Talk 90 percent about the uncertain future"},{"startTime":976.14,"endTime":980.2,"body":"and only 10 percent about the present."},{"startTime":980.5,"endTime":983.09,"body":"I think this goes hand in"},{"startTime":980.5,"endTime":983.09,"body":"glove with the previous one,"},{"startTime":983.11,"endTime":985.59,"body":"which is ignore any negativity."},{"startTime":985.99,"endTime":986.33,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":986.56,"endTime":988.81,"body":"So so don't, negativity"},{"startTime":986.56,"endTime":988.81,"body":"lives in the present."},{"startTime":989.13,"endTime":991.34,"body":"You can't say, oh, we're going to"},{"startTime":989.13,"endTime":991.34,"body":"have some problems in the future."},{"startTime":991.35,"endTime":992.06,"body":"That doesn't happen."},{"startTime":992.33,"endTime":994.04,"body":"So negativity is in the present."},{"startTime":994.07,"endTime":997.67,"body":"And if you're only limiting your"},{"startTime":994.07,"endTime":997.67,"body":"discussion about the present at 10%, it's"},{"startTime":997.67,"endTime":1000.07,"body":"just all, we have a rosy future ahead."},{"startTime":1000.13,"endTime":1000.92,"body":"And that's what this is."},{"startTime":1001.09,"endTime":1005.95,"body":"So people do that, and they"},{"startTime":1001.09,"endTime":1005.95,"body":"do that using ancillary."},{"startTime":1006.205,"endTime":1009.455,"body":"Data, nothing to do with your company,"},{"startTime":1006.205,"endTime":1009.455,"body":"nothing to do with product discovery."},{"startTime":1009.455,"endTime":1010.015,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1010.315,"endTime":1011.935,"body":"And it's almost an art form."},{"startTime":1012.005,"endTime":1013.795,"body":"I've seen people do this in my career."},{"startTime":1013.795,"endTime":1015.405,"body":"Let me tell you, they excel at it."},{"startTime":1015.455,"endTime":1017.335,"body":"Remember the old days where"},{"startTime":1015.455,"endTime":1017.335,"body":"sales would come in the room"},{"startTime":1017.335,"endTime":1018.715,"body":"and talk about that pipeline."},{"startTime":1019.015,"endTime":1020.135,"body":"We got this pipeline."},{"startTime":1020.145,"endTime":1021.645,"body":"We got a deep pipeline."},{"startTime":1021.895,"endTime":1023.925,"body":"We got all these customers and"},{"startTime":1021.895,"endTime":1023.925,"body":"we got these things going on."},{"startTime":1023.925,"endTime":1026.935,"body":"We got this pipeline and"},{"startTime":1023.925,"endTime":1026.935,"body":"you're like, man, let me see a"},{"startTime":1026.935,"endTime":1028.225,"body":"pressure valve on that pipeline."},{"startTime":1028.235,"endTime":1030.745,"body":", there's like a trickle coming"},{"startTime":1028.235,"endTime":1030.745,"body":"through on the other end."},{"startTime":1030.745,"endTime":1033.185,"body":"As far as money comes out of that"},{"startTime":1030.745,"endTime":1033.185,"body":"pipeline, I don't see any money."},{"startTime":1033.615,"endTime":1036.355,"body":"You see, the way you describe it,"},{"startTime":1033.615,"endTime":1036.355,"body":"there's . All kinds of pressure and"},{"startTime":1036.355,"endTime":1037.755,"body":"money coming through that pipeline."},{"startTime":1037.755,"endTime":1039.785,"body":"We should be drowning in money right now."},{"startTime":1039.985,"endTime":1046.085,"body":"This is the old sales It's in the"},{"startTime":1039.985,"endTime":1046.085,"body":"pipeline This is why this one focus"},{"startTime":1046.085,"endTime":1047.655,"body":"on the vision ignore execution."},{"startTime":1047.905,"endTime":1053.225,"body":"this one has been manifest for me like why"},{"startTime":1047.905,"endTime":1053.225,"body":"I'm arguing against this one is because"},{"startTime":1053.285,"endTime":1060.435,"body":"all through my career, the least effective"},{"startTime":1053.285,"endTime":1060.435,"body":"salespeople that I have ever seen do this."},{"startTime":1060.735,"endTime":1063.745,"body":"They focus on a potential"},{"startTime":1060.735,"endTime":1063.745,"body":"future that doesn't exist."},{"startTime":1063.925,"endTime":1068.015,"body":"this is like Enron and a bunch of other"},{"startTime":1063.925,"endTime":1068.015,"body":"companies that people went to jail about"},{"startTime":1068.215,"endTime":1070.205,"body":"they focus on a future that doesn't exist."},{"startTime":1070.685,"endTime":1072.705,"body":"To try to sell you something today."},{"startTime":1072.855,"endTime":1076.385,"body":"This is also every fad, like Oh,"},{"startTime":1072.855,"endTime":1076.385,"body":"you've got to get on board with"},{"startTime":1076.835,"endTime":1079.875,"body":"everything AI, everything crypto,"},{"startTime":1076.835,"endTime":1079.875,"body":"everything blockchain, they're trying"},{"startTime":1079.875,"endTime":1082.185,"body":"to sell you everything because they're"},{"startTime":1079.875,"endTime":1082.185,"body":"trying to sell you on a future."},{"startTime":1082.485,"endTime":1085.435,"body":"Whereas if you look at"},{"startTime":1082.485,"endTime":1085.435,"body":"today, it's nothing."},{"startTime":1085.565,"endTime":1089.005,"body":"Well, some lady named Elizabeth"},{"startTime":1085.565,"endTime":1089.005,"body":"is twitching now of Theranos."},{"startTime":1089.055,"endTime":1089.465,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1089.575,"endTime":1092.385,"body":"Listen, I agree with you, but"},{"startTime":1089.575,"endTime":1092.385,"body":"I'm taking the other side."},{"startTime":1092.385,"endTime":1093.935,"body":"So here's what I'm going"},{"startTime":1092.385,"endTime":1093.935,"body":"to say to you, right?"},{"startTime":1094.38,"endTime":1100.92,"body":"It doesn't matter people buy into your"},{"startTime":1094.38,"endTime":1100.92,"body":"vision if you're a visionary person You"},{"startTime":1100.92,"endTime":1103.07,"body":"can talk about the vision all day long."},{"startTime":1103.16,"endTime":1106.26,"body":"Okay, right and people will say"},{"startTime":1103.16,"endTime":1106.26,"body":"but today That's just temporary."},{"startTime":1106.3,"endTime":1107.01,"body":"That's today."},{"startTime":1107.36,"endTime":1108.45,"body":"But look at where we're going."},{"startTime":1108.6,"endTime":1110.21,"body":"The future is bright."},{"startTime":1110.64,"endTime":1111.3,"body":"Come with me."},{"startTime":1111.56,"endTime":1114.19,"body":"These are the kinds of people"},{"startTime":1111.56,"endTime":1114.19,"body":"that, what's his name, Jim?"},{"startTime":1114.19,"endTime":1116.1,"body":"What's his name to the island over there?"},{"startTime":1116.1,"endTime":1116.72,"body":"And they all died."},{"startTime":1117.02,"endTime":1118.87,"body":"Seriously, I want to tell you."},{"startTime":1119.17,"endTime":1121.8,"body":"These people are gifted."},{"startTime":1122.085,"endTime":1122.565,"body":"They are."},{"startTime":1122.585,"endTime":1123.995,"body":"I thought you meant Lou Gershner."},{"startTime":1123.995,"endTime":1124.735,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1124.735,"endTime":1125.445,"body":"You were like Jim."},{"startTime":1125.445,"endTime":1126.365,"body":"I work for the guy."},{"startTime":1126.365,"endTime":1126.965,"body":"I can't say that."},{"startTime":1127.205,"endTime":1127.475,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1127.475,"endTime":1128.045,"body":"What was his name?"},{"startTime":1128.265,"endTime":1128.645,"body":"The guy."},{"startTime":1128.655,"endTime":1129.445,"body":"I know you're talking about."},{"startTime":1129.445,"endTime":1130.475,"body":"I can't, I can't remember."},{"startTime":1130.525,"endTime":1131.895,"body":"Everybody took poison and died."},{"startTime":1131.945,"endTime":1134.535,"body":", they convinced you of a rosy future ahead."},{"startTime":1134.835,"endTime":1138.915,"body":"And you talk about the 10 percent today"},{"startTime":1134.835,"endTime":1138.915,"body":"and they're like, this too shall pass."},{"startTime":1139.075,"endTime":1139.505,"body":"Don't worry about it."},{"startTime":1139.655,"endTime":1139.925,"body":"It's fine."},{"startTime":1140.225,"endTime":1144.965,"body":"And for that reason, this is contagious,"},{"startTime":1140.225,"endTime":1144.965,"body":"that kind of mentality is contagious."},{"startTime":1145.255,"endTime":1147.975,"body":"leadership will look at that"},{"startTime":1145.255,"endTime":1147.975,"body":"and say, he's a visionary."},{"startTime":1148.185,"endTime":1149.465,"body":"You get labeled that way."},{"startTime":1149.845,"endTime":1154.205,"body":"You're a visionary, you're a strategist,"},{"startTime":1149.845,"endTime":1154.205,"body":"and you will survive in the company."},{"startTime":1154.505,"endTime":1156.065,"body":"You're not an executioner, right?"},{"startTime":1156.065,"endTime":1157.745,"body":"You're not doing stuff today."},{"startTime":1157.875,"endTime":1161.925,"body":"You know, the funny thing about this is"},{"startTime":1157.875,"endTime":1161.925,"body":"I've seen people like you're describing."},{"startTime":1162.225,"endTime":1166.515,"body":"Make the case to hire somebody and have"},{"startTime":1162.225,"endTime":1166.515,"body":"somebody rolled under them to be like,"},{"startTime":1166.515,"endTime":1168.385,"body":"Oh, I need to be the product manager."},{"startTime":1168.385,"endTime":1171.395,"body":"And the problem is you need"},{"startTime":1168.385,"endTime":1171.395,"body":"to hire a product owner for me"},{"startTime":1171.395,"endTime":1172.645,"body":"and I'll tell them what to do."},{"startTime":1172.935,"endTime":1174.185,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":1174.385,"endTime":1175.795,"body":", I've seen that a lot."},{"startTime":1175.795,"endTime":1177.415,"body":"I've seen that more than one time."},{"startTime":1177.91,"endTime":1179.5,"body":"And it is a problem."},{"startTime":1179.53,"endTime":1181.75,"body":", that is an industry problem"},{"startTime":1179.53,"endTime":1181.75,"body":"that hasn't gone away."},{"startTime":1181.78,"endTime":1185.74,"body":"And like, I would like to say that there's"},{"startTime":1181.78,"endTime":1185.74,"body":"a bright future at the end of this tunnel."},{"startTime":1185.74,"endTime":1187.76,"body":"But actually it's a train"},{"startTime":1185.74,"endTime":1187.76,"body":"Coming the other way."},{"startTime":1187.94,"endTime":1189.14,"body":"And like, it's a problem."},{"startTime":1189.14,"endTime":1190.7,"body":"'cause it's in the training complex."},{"startTime":1190.71,"endTime":1191.49,"body":"It's everywhere."},{"startTime":1191.89,"endTime":1194.48,"body":"Well, I'm gonna award"},{"startTime":1191.89,"endTime":1194.48,"body":"negative points to both of us."},{"startTime":1194.48,"endTime":1195.26,"body":"We both lose, I agree."},{"startTime":1195.41,"endTime":1196.55,"body":"We both lose this category."},{"startTime":1196.55,"endTime":1197.6,"body":"'cause when the train started coming."},{"startTime":1197.9,"endTime":1200.39,"body":"Nobody can move out of"},{"startTime":1197.9,"endTime":1200.39,"body":"the way and it wasn't fun."},{"startTime":1200.63,"endTime":1204.73,"body":"All right, so his next one is"},{"startTime":1200.63,"endTime":1204.73,"body":"speak in big picture terms."},{"startTime":1204.81,"endTime":1206.3,"body":"Very similar to the previous category."},{"startTime":1206.3,"endTime":1210.93,"body":"He says constantly reference high"},{"startTime":1206.3,"endTime":1210.93,"body":"level priorities and a cohesive"},{"startTime":1210.99,"endTime":1214.91,"body":"product vision push back on tasks"},{"startTime":1210.99,"endTime":1214.91,"body":"that require effort by questioning"},{"startTime":1214.92,"endTime":1218.13,"body":"alignment with the long term strategy."},{"startTime":1218.43,"endTime":1221.98,"body":"These people talk about PowerPoint"},{"startTime":1218.43,"endTime":1221.98,"body":"slides and vision statements."},{"startTime":1222.465,"endTime":1225.615,"body":"Instead of what is happening today, right?"},{"startTime":1226.005,"endTime":1230.235,"body":"What is happening today may"},{"startTime":1226.005,"endTime":1230.235,"body":"be negative, but they,  infer"},{"startTime":1230.235,"endTime":1231.885,"body":"that that's not their issue."},{"startTime":1232.185,"endTime":1233.475,"body":"That's because of something else."},{"startTime":1233.695,"endTime":1235.635,"body":"Or, that's someone else's problem."},{"startTime":1235.915,"endTime":1236.975,"body":"It's operations."},{"startTime":1237.045,"endTime":1238.195,"body":"It's this, it's that."},{"startTime":1238.495,"endTime":1239.995,"body":"But this is where we're heading, right?"},{"startTime":1240.045,"endTime":1245.445,"body":", they paint a rosy picture and say,"},{"startTime":1240.045,"endTime":1245.445,"body":"this is our strategy, we're going"},{"startTime":1245.445,"endTime":1249.545,"body":"to have  15 percent year on year"},{"startTime":1245.445,"endTime":1249.545,"body":"growth, et cetera, They don't say"},{"startTime":1249.545,"endTime":1251.555,"body":"how, because They have no idea,"},{"startTime":1251.555,"endTime":1252.115,"body":"They have no idea."},{"startTime":1252.275,"endTime":1255.445,"body":"But, they will say, smart"},{"startTime":1252.275,"endTime":1255.445,"body":"people will do this."},{"startTime":1255.485,"endTime":1259.205,"body":"They will say, last year,"},{"startTime":1255.485,"endTime":1259.205,"body":"we had 5 percent growth."},{"startTime":1259.505,"endTime":1262.645,"body":"And  they will leverage that and"},{"startTime":1259.505,"endTime":1262.645,"body":"say, because of the things that"},{"startTime":1262.645,"endTime":1264.085,"body":"we're putting in place today."},{"startTime":1264.385,"endTime":1269.695,"body":"It will serve us well towards getting"},{"startTime":1264.385,"endTime":1269.695,"body":"a 15 percent growth in the next year."},{"startTime":1269.995,"endTime":1273.145,"body":"That's what they will say, but"},{"startTime":1269.995,"endTime":1273.145,"body":"there's no substance under that."},{"startTime":1273.395,"endTime":1277.255,"body":"You know what I love about this"},{"startTime":1273.395,"endTime":1277.255,"body":"category is if you question it,  we're"},{"startTime":1277.255,"endTime":1279.425,"body":"like, Oh, you're just being negative."},{"startTime":1279.425,"endTime":1280.135,"body":"you're a troublemaker."},{"startTime":1280.145,"endTime":1281.305,"body":"You're a negative Nancy."},{"startTime":1281.305,"endTime":1282.805,"body":"you're just troublemaking."},{"startTime":1282.815,"endTime":1285.155,"body":"Like we don't need that"},{"startTime":1282.815,"endTime":1285.155,"body":"kind of negativity."},{"startTime":1285.205,"endTime":1285.545,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1285.575,"endTime":1288.915,"body":"this person proposing all this stuff,"},{"startTime":1285.575,"endTime":1288.915,"body":"like they have no concept of tactics."},{"startTime":1289.095,"endTime":1292.165,"body":"I would also say they're not"},{"startTime":1289.095,"endTime":1292.165,"body":"talking to people doing the work"},{"startTime":1292.185,"endTime":1295.905,"body":"that usually people like this are"},{"startTime":1292.185,"endTime":1295.905,"body":"trying to build a wall between."},{"startTime":1296.205,"endTime":1298.635,"body":"Their world, and the people actually"},{"startTime":1296.205,"endTime":1298.635,"body":"doing the work because the people"},{"startTime":1298.635,"endTime":1302.395,"body":"actually doing the work can make these"},{"startTime":1298.635,"endTime":1302.395,"body":"people look bad real quick, all day."},{"startTime":1302.525,"endTime":1303.285,"body":"and in fact."},{"startTime":1303.345,"endTime":1307.415,"body":"I've been at more than one workplace"},{"startTime":1303.345,"endTime":1307.415,"body":"where I'll come in behind people"},{"startTime":1307.415,"endTime":1309.305,"body":"like this that have failed."},{"startTime":1309.63,"endTime":1313.24,"body":"For a period of time where leadership"},{"startTime":1309.63,"endTime":1313.24,"body":"doesn't believe that it's even possible"},{"startTime":1313.24,"endTime":1318.43,"body":"to succeed anymore come in with small"},{"startTime":1313.24,"endTime":1318.43,"body":"team, small budget, do laps around"},{"startTime":1318.43,"endTime":1323.45,"body":"folks like this and their giant program"},{"startTime":1318.43,"endTime":1323.45,"body":"level teams . Be like, look, it's easy."},{"startTime":1323.45,"endTime":1324.58,"body":"You talk directly to people."},{"startTime":1324.72,"endTime":1327.2,"body":"You don't need to insulate yourself in the"},{"startTime":1324.72,"endTime":1327.2,"body":"bubble . Yeah, it feels good, doesn't it?"},{"startTime":1327.44,"endTime":1328.52,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1328.52,"endTime":1331.96,"body":"I agree with you there,  these people"},{"startTime":1328.52,"endTime":1331.96,"body":"do this for a reason, ? They do"},{"startTime":1331.96,"endTime":1334.24,"body":"this because they have no substance."},{"startTime":1334.38,"endTime":1337.28,"body":"So, this is like a survival"},{"startTime":1334.38,"endTime":1337.28,"body":"mechanism for them."},{"startTime":1337.7,"endTime":1339.86,"body":"Yeah, I mean, okay, understood."},{"startTime":1340.08,"endTime":1344.69,"body":"Again, going back to the Deming podcast at"},{"startTime":1340.08,"endTime":1344.69,"body":"what point in your career do you get tired"},{"startTime":1344.69,"endTime":1348.14,"body":"of being ineffective and just decide like,"},{"startTime":1344.69,"endTime":1348.14,"body":"I'm just gonna go be a farmer or whatever"},{"startTime":1348.15,"endTime":1350.2,"body":"that's a good question because"},{"startTime":1348.15,"endTime":1350.2,"body":"you know, when you look at"},{"startTime":1350.2,"endTime":1351.39,"body":"our industry today, right?"},{"startTime":1351.41,"endTime":1354.1,"body":"You're going to find people"},{"startTime":1351.41,"endTime":1354.1,"body":"that have never actually done"},{"startTime":1354.44,"endTime":1355.82,"body":"product management before."},{"startTime":1355.88,"endTime":1359.27,"body":"But they've been product manager,"},{"startTime":1355.88,"endTime":1359.27,"body":"product director, VP of product even"},{"startTime":1359.29,"endTime":1362.44,"body":"the higher you climb, I think the"},{"startTime":1359.29,"endTime":1362.44,"body":"more of those people you will find."},{"startTime":1362.45,"endTime":1366.45,"body":"Yeah, exactly, the other thing that"},{"startTime":1362.45,"endTime":1366.45,"body":"happens though, with this is people like"},{"startTime":1366.45,"endTime":1368.31,"body":"this attract people like themselves."},{"startTime":1368.41,"endTime":1369.49,"body":", they run in cliques."},{"startTime":1369.555,"endTime":1373.035,"body":"I'll never forget the time when I was"},{"startTime":1369.555,"endTime":1373.035,"body":"an entrepreneur and ran an ice cream"},{"startTime":1373.035,"endTime":1378.205,"body":"franchise a 21-year-old out of college"},{"startTime":1373.035,"endTime":1378.205,"body":"was made a VP of product, He visited"},{"startTime":1378.255,"endTime":1379.855,"body":"New England in the middle of winter."},{"startTime":1379.915,"endTime":1381.625,"body":", he frowned at the coffee flash."},{"startTime":1381.925,"endTime":1383.295,"body":"We're an ice cream franchise."},{"startTime":1383.345,"endTime":1385.755,"body":"What are you doing with coffee"},{"startTime":1383.345,"endTime":1385.755,"body":"nobody wants ice cream at"},{"startTime":1385.845,"endTime":1386.785,"body":"8 o'clock in the morning."},{"startTime":1387.055,"endTime":1387.845,"body":"People are going to work."},{"startTime":1387.895,"endTime":1388.655,"body":"We're in a mall."},{"startTime":1388.705,"endTime":1389.635,"body":"People want coffee."},{"startTime":1389.975,"endTime":1391.505,"body":"I'm doing what it takes to survive."},{"startTime":1391.865,"endTime":1392.455,"body":"They don't know."},{"startTime":1392.855,"endTime":1396.445,"body":"So it's bookwork sometimes but"},{"startTime":1392.855,"endTime":1396.445,"body":"in other cases, it's basically"},{"startTime":1396.445,"endTime":1401.965,"body":"just simply hoodwinking their way"},{"startTime":1396.445,"endTime":1401.965,"body":"around companies and farming their"},{"startTime":1401.965,"endTime":1403.725,"body":"resume, from one job to another."},{"startTime":1404.025,"endTime":1408.385,"body":"We've seen that I think you take all"},{"startTime":1404.025,"endTime":1408.385,"body":"the points for a real world story"},{"startTime":1408.385,"endTime":1409.995,"body":"with a 20 something year old VP"},{"startTime":1410.075,"endTime":1413.752,"body":"So the last one in this first category,"},{"startTime":1410.075,"endTime":1413.752,"body":"the communication tactics, is exude."},{"startTime":1414.052,"endTime":1414.582,"body":"Confidence."},{"startTime":1414.582,"endTime":1417.642,"body":"He says, exude confidence,"},{"startTime":1414.582,"endTime":1417.642,"body":"not uncertainty."},{"startTime":1417.782,"endTime":1421.382,"body":"If leadership asks for an 18"},{"startTime":1417.782,"endTime":1421.382,"body":"month roadmap, don't hedge."},{"startTime":1421.532,"endTime":1422.412,"body":"Give them one."},{"startTime":1422.762,"endTime":1427.252,"body":"If asked for an impact estimate,"},{"startTime":1422.762,"endTime":1427.252,"body":"provide a number, not a range."},{"startTime":1427.432,"endTime":1428.922,"body":"Doubt is a career killer."},{"startTime":1429.102,"endTime":1433.202,"body":"So in arguing agile 117, you"},{"startTime":1429.102,"endTime":1433.202,"body":"should do time based estimates,"},{"startTime":1433.212,"endTime":1437.412,"body":"we reviewed an article where the"},{"startTime":1433.212,"endTime":1437.412,"body":"article said you should just do time"},{"startTime":1437.492,"endTime":1441.672,"body":"based estimates, it was ArsTechnica"},{"startTime":1437.492,"endTime":1441.672,"body":"article or, oh, Forbes as well?"},{"startTime":1441.772,"endTime":1442.192,"body":"Okay, yeah."},{"startTime":1442.242,"endTime":1446.132,"body":"Oh, geez, man, like we're"},{"startTime":1442.242,"endTime":1446.132,"body":"double, triple, yeah."},{"startTime":1446.132,"endTime":1450.072,"body":"One 17, we reviewed an article"},{"startTime":1446.132,"endTime":1450.072,"body":"that said, just give estimates."},{"startTime":1450.072,"endTime":1453.272,"body":"everyone will look more positively on"},{"startTime":1450.072,"endTime":1453.272,"body":"you when you give  estimates in hours."},{"startTime":1453.752,"endTime":1455.292,"body":"And he's basically saying the same thing."},{"startTime":1455.292,"endTime":1458.312,"body":"He's like, Hey, they want a"},{"startTime":1455.292,"endTime":1458.312,"body":"roadmap with like in X number"},{"startTime":1458.312,"endTime":1460.162,"body":"of weeks, we'll deliver this."},{"startTime":1460.212,"endTime":1461.362,"body":"basically a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1461.862,"endTime":1463.142,"body":"Just give them one, just give them one."},{"startTime":1463.582,"endTime":1464.782,"body":"Hey, the timelines change."},{"startTime":1465.087,"endTime":1467.177,"body":"Go back home and be like,"},{"startTime":1465.087,"endTime":1467.177,"body":"Hey, timeline's changed."},{"startTime":1467.477,"endTime":1467.777,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":1467.847,"endTime":1471.237,"body":"Well, one of the biggest lessons I"},{"startTime":1467.847,"endTime":1471.237,"body":"learned early in my career is to not give"},{"startTime":1471.237,"endTime":1473.507,"body":"a point estimate and just give a range."},{"startTime":1473.507,"endTime":1475.017,"body":"But he's saying the opposite now."},{"startTime":1475.347,"endTime":1477.777,"body":"And that goes to the"},{"startTime":1475.347,"endTime":1477.777,"body":"position you're in, right?"},{"startTime":1478.117,"endTime":1480.087,"body":"You're now a big shot PM."},{"startTime":1480.547,"endTime":1485.807,"body":"So you can get away with not giving"},{"startTime":1480.547,"endTime":1485.807,"body":"vague ranges because ranges are seen"},{"startTime":1485.827,"endTime":1489.177,"body":"as hedging and ambiguous uncertainty."},{"startTime":1489.177,"endTime":1489.607,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1489.767,"endTime":1491.227,"body":"So he's saying, well, just pick a date."},{"startTime":1491.607,"endTime":1492.147,"body":"And go with it."},{"startTime":1492.187,"endTime":1494.497,"body":"And if it changes, you say,"},{"startTime":1492.187,"endTime":1494.497,"body":"well, hey, look, life happens."},{"startTime":1494.657,"endTime":1496.257,"body":", if I'm going to agree with this."},{"startTime":1496.557,"endTime":1499.347,"body":"It's from a perspective of,"},{"startTime":1496.557,"endTime":1499.347,"body":"that's what leadership does."},{"startTime":1499.407,"endTime":1502.507,"body":"They pick a date and they're like,  this"},{"startTime":1499.407,"endTime":1502.507,"body":"is how leadership picks dates, by the way."},{"startTime":1502.847,"endTime":1505.647,"body":"They will say, I don't want to pick"},{"startTime":1502.847,"endTime":1505.647,"body":"a date to make the team scramble"},{"startTime":1505.647,"endTime":1506.607,"body":"and drop what they're doing."},{"startTime":1506.827,"endTime":1509.947,"body":"But I don't want to make it look like"},{"startTime":1506.827,"endTime":1509.947,"body":"I'm taking my foot off the pedal."},{"startTime":1510.117,"endTime":1512.117,"body":"I want to keep the pressure on,"},{"startTime":1510.117,"endTime":1512.117,"body":"so I'm going to pick a date."},{"startTime":1512.207,"endTime":1513.657,"body":"we're recording this is like mid month."},{"startTime":1513.657,"endTime":1516.257,"body":"It's like the 14th right now I"},{"startTime":1513.657,"endTime":1516.257,"body":"want to pick a date end of month."},{"startTime":1516.267,"endTime":1517.177,"body":"We need to have this."},{"startTime":1517.667,"endTime":1518.877,"body":"Just keep the pressure on."},{"startTime":1519.017,"endTime":1520.457,"body":"That's how leadership sets dates."},{"startTime":1520.457,"endTime":1523.307,"body":"First of all, they're arbitrary."},{"startTime":1523.607,"endTime":1525.707,"body":"But they're trying to say"},{"startTime":1523.607,"endTime":1525.707,"body":"like, hey, it's a priority, but"},{"startTime":1525.707,"endTime":1527.117,"body":"it's not super high priority."},{"startTime":1527.327,"endTime":1530.147,"body":"So don't drop what you're doing,"},{"startTime":1527.327,"endTime":1530.147,"body":"but also it's that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1530.597,"endTime":1534.547,"body":"Yeah, so coming back to this point"},{"startTime":1530.597,"endTime":1534.547,"body":"here, what he's saying is if you"},{"startTime":1534.557,"endTime":1538.127,"body":"have any kind of uncertainty in"},{"startTime":1534.557,"endTime":1538.127,"body":"your estimates, you look weak."},{"startTime":1538.587,"endTime":1541.422,"body":"So what you should do is"},{"startTime":1538.587,"endTime":1541.422,"body":"just say, here's what it is."},{"startTime":1541.832,"endTime":1543.852,"body":"I'm telling you, we're going to"},{"startTime":1541.832,"endTime":1543.852,"body":"make this happen, We're going to"},{"startTime":1543.852,"endTime":1545.282,"body":"try our best to make this happen."},{"startTime":1545.572,"endTime":1548.612,"body":"If it doesn't happen, it will be"},{"startTime":1545.572,"endTime":1548.612,"body":"for reasons outside of our control."},{"startTime":1548.902,"endTime":1550.082,"body":"So that's it, right?"},{"startTime":1550.102,"endTime":1550.782,"body":"Just go with it."},{"startTime":1551.142,"endTime":1554.572,"body":"There may not be any substance"},{"startTime":1551.142,"endTime":1554.572,"body":"behind your estimate."},{"startTime":1554.912,"endTime":1556.492,"body":"And that is the part that worries me."},{"startTime":1556.682,"endTime":1558.352,"body":"But I'm taking the other side, of course."},{"startTime":1558.512,"endTime":1562.352,"body":"So I'm saying, hey, listen, if"},{"startTime":1558.512,"endTime":1562.352,"body":"you're one of those PMs, go for it."},{"startTime":1562.502,"endTime":1563.052,"body":"Pick a date."},{"startTime":1563.402,"endTime":1563.982,"body":"Pick a date."},{"startTime":1563.992,"endTime":1565.072,"body":"You can't fail."},{"startTime":1565.142,"endTime":1569.472,"body":"Because you simply say, well, it was"},{"startTime":1565.142,"endTime":1569.472,"body":"the dev teams that didn't come through."},{"startTime":1569.912,"endTime":1570.192,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1570.192,"endTime":1572.462,"body":"They need more time or whatever."},{"startTime":1572.762,"endTime":1574.762,"body":"Oh, , does this lend"},{"startTime":1572.762,"endTime":1574.762,"body":"itself to the blame game?"},{"startTime":1574.762,"endTime":1575.562,"body":"Is that what's happening now?"},{"startTime":1575.692,"endTime":1579.742,"body":", for the purpose of the rest of this"},{"startTime":1575.692,"endTime":1579.742,"body":"conversation, I will cede my time to"},{"startTime":1579.742,"endTime":1582.122,"body":"the representative from Tampa, Florida."},{"startTime":1582.172,"endTime":1584.152,"body":"I won't even engage to say"},{"startTime":1582.172,"endTime":1584.152,"body":"I'm right or wrong with it."},{"startTime":1584.162,"endTime":1587.762,"body":"I'll cede all my points to you for"},{"startTime":1584.162,"endTime":1587.762,"body":"the rest of this category set a date."},{"startTime":1588.062,"endTime":1589.042,"body":"Say whatever you want."},{"startTime":1589.112,"endTime":1589.912,"body":"You're not even planning it."},{"startTime":1590.132,"endTime":1590.692,"body":"Fine."},{"startTime":1590.772,"endTime":1591.362,"body":"No problem."},{"startTime":1591.382,"endTime":1596.272,"body":"My guarantee always is we will go"},{"startTime":1591.382,"endTime":1596.272,"body":"live on a day that ends in a Y."},{"startTime":1596.282,"endTime":1596.632,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1596.632,"endTime":1597.172,"body":"We can't fail."},{"startTime":1597.222,"endTime":1598.432,"body":"the dates aren't real."},{"startTime":1598.482,"endTime":1599.082,"body":"They're all made up."},{"startTime":1599.132,"endTime":1601.242,"body":"Everyone's making up dates anyway."},{"startTime":1601.252,"endTime":1602.512,"body":"And everyone's missing them."},{"startTime":1602.682,"endTime":1605.842,"body":"why not just make up points like"},{"startTime":1602.682,"endTime":1605.842,"body":"the rest of the gang when, at the"},{"startTime":1605.842,"endTime":1608.542,"body":"end of the episode, when they pull"},{"startTime":1605.842,"endTime":1608.542,"body":"off the Scooby Doo mask, your dates"},{"startTime":1608.542,"endTime":1609.772,"body":"are as wrong as everyone else's."},{"startTime":1610.112,"endTime":1612.192,"body":"but if I'm giving an exact date."},{"startTime":1612.617,"endTime":1616.497,"body":"Confidently My leadership is looking at me"},{"startTime":1612.617,"endTime":1616.497,"body":"thinking this guy knows what he's doing."},{"startTime":1616.567,"endTime":1617.187,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1617.237,"endTime":1618.297,"body":"And that's all that matters."},{"startTime":1618.337,"endTime":1618.637,"body":". All right."},{"startTime":1618.657,"endTime":1619.707,"body":"Well, let's move on to the next."},{"startTime":1619.707,"endTime":1622.507,"body":"So, again, I cede all the points"},{"startTime":1619.707,"endTime":1622.507,"body":"to you for this category because"},{"startTime":1622.507,"endTime":1624.767,"body":"I think it's ridiculous and I"},{"startTime":1622.507,"endTime":1624.767,"body":"don't want to engage with it."},{"startTime":1624.767,"endTime":1627.107,"body":"Let's move on to the next category"},{"startTime":1624.767,"endTime":1627.107,"body":"which is workload management."},{"startTime":1627.237,"endTime":1630.607,"body":"We're on the managing the workload"},{"startTime":1627.237,"endTime":1630.607,"body":"of the day to day at this point."},{"startTime":1630.917,"endTime":1635.147,"body":"And in the posts, he says"},{"startTime":1630.917,"endTime":1635.147,"body":"signal busyness, occasionally"},{"startTime":1635.147,"endTime":1636.907,"body":"mentioned how slammed you are."},{"startTime":1637.107,"endTime":1640.477,"body":"Drop a weekend Slack message on"},{"startTime":1637.107,"endTime":1640.477,"body":"Sunday night about how you solved some"},{"startTime":1640.477,"endTime":1644.737,"body":"problem and how it's great to have"},{"startTime":1640.477,"endTime":1644.737,"body":"some quiet time to work on things."},{"startTime":1645.087,"endTime":1647.477,"body":"Set a scheduled message to"},{"startTime":1645.087,"endTime":1647.477,"body":"go off on a Sunday night."},{"startTime":1647.527,"endTime":1651.147,"body":"I mean, he's basically saying  you"},{"startTime":1647.527,"endTime":1651.147,"body":"want to make your work visible in a"},{"startTime":1651.167,"endTime":1655.727,"body":"remote slash distributed environment"},{"startTime":1651.167,"endTime":1655.727,"body":"and then and then you're Performance"},{"startTime":1655.787,"endTime":1657.937,"body":"theater distracts from everything else."},{"startTime":1657.967,"endTime":1659.797,"body":"Oh, look at, look at, look at Brian."},{"startTime":1659.797,"endTime":1661.927,"body":"He works every 24 seven."},{"startTime":1661.927,"endTime":1663.077,"body":"He's so busy."},{"startTime":1663.377,"endTime":1666.587,"body":"But this is like anybody who knows real"},{"startTime":1663.377,"endTime":1666.587,"body":"product management knows like, Hey man,"},{"startTime":1666.607,"endTime":1668.817,"body":"like you, you shouldn't like 24 seven."},{"startTime":1668.817,"endTime":1671.047,"body":"That's not, that's not sustainable."},{"startTime":1671.047,"endTime":1673.757,"body":"Also what customers are you"},{"startTime":1671.047,"endTime":1673.757,"body":"collaborating with on a Sunday night?"},{"startTime":1673.777,"endTime":1674.577,"body":"Like yeah."},{"startTime":1674.637,"endTime":1678.557,"body":"I mean, this is just, It's like"},{"startTime":1674.637,"endTime":1678.557,"body":"you said, it's pure theater, and it"},{"startTime":1678.557,"endTime":1683.237,"body":"works because people that are looking"},{"startTime":1678.557,"endTime":1683.237,"body":"at you leadership mainly, ? Right."},{"startTime":1683.357,"endTime":1686.687,"body":"They look at that and go, oh, this guy"},{"startTime":1683.357,"endTime":1686.687,"body":"is really working hard, , I didn't expect"},{"startTime":1686.687,"endTime":1690.107,"body":"myself to be on this side of the table,"},{"startTime":1686.687,"endTime":1690.107,"body":"but if I'm going to defend his point for"},{"startTime":1690.107,"endTime":1693.812,"body":"a minute, when you were the first product"},{"startTime":1690.107,"endTime":1693.812,"body":"management hire, I'm looking at you,"},{"startTime":1693.812,"endTime":1695.922,"body":"Tricia, we haven't done that podcast."},{"startTime":1695.942,"endTime":1697.802,"body":"We will come to Orlando"},{"startTime":1695.942,"endTime":1697.802,"body":"and do that podcast."},{"startTime":1697.842,"endTime":1698.602,"body":"We'll figure it out."},{"startTime":1698.902,"endTime":1702.472,"body":"When you're the first product management"},{"startTime":1698.902,"endTime":1702.472,"body":"hire and you're working for all founders,"},{"startTime":1702.512,"endTime":1704.332,"body":"they want to feel this category."},{"startTime":1704.622,"endTime":1708.182,"body":"in, that case, I am with him"},{"startTime":1704.622,"endTime":1708.182,"body":"on that just kind of like."},{"startTime":1708.482,"endTime":1712.402,"body":"Point out when you're working"},{"startTime":1708.482,"endTime":1712.402,"body":"outside of normal operational hours."},{"startTime":1712.702,"endTime":1715.462,"body":"Like at the point where you're the"},{"startTime":1712.702,"endTime":1715.462,"body":"first product management hire, you're"},{"startTime":1715.472,"endTime":1717.672,"body":"probably working with a startup"},{"startTime":1715.472,"endTime":1717.672,"body":"and their hours are a little wacky."},{"startTime":1717.962,"endTime":1720.122,"body":"They're not going to give"},{"startTime":1717.962,"endTime":1720.122,"body":"you a special star for that."},{"startTime":1720.192,"endTime":1722.252,"body":"Everyone's expected to do"},{"startTime":1720.192,"endTime":1722.252,"body":"that in a startup, right?"},{"startTime":1722.552,"endTime":1724.862,"body":"Like I'm talking to startup"},{"startTime":1722.552,"endTime":1724.862,"body":"like 10 people or less."},{"startTime":1725.302,"endTime":1727.232,"body":"You're not like, Oh, we're 300 people."},{"startTime":1727.232,"endTime":1727.822,"body":"We're a startup."},{"startTime":1727.822,"endTime":1728.612,"body":"You're not a startup."},{"startTime":1728.982,"endTime":1733.432,"body":"But if you want to break through into"},{"startTime":1728.982,"endTime":1733.432,"body":"that crowd, they need to visibly see you"},{"startTime":1733.702,"endTime":1739.662,"body":"working when they're working, the terrible"},{"startTime":1733.702,"endTime":1739.662,"body":"point that I can offer for this in support"},{"startTime":1739.802,"endTime":1744.432,"body":"of his point is if they send you a Slack"},{"startTime":1739.802,"endTime":1744.432,"body":"message or something and it's a weekend."},{"startTime":1744.732,"endTime":1747.722,"body":"They might tell you, Hey,"},{"startTime":1744.732,"endTime":1747.722,"body":"we know it's weekend."},{"startTime":1747.722,"endTime":1748.962,"body":"We know it's outside of work hours."},{"startTime":1749.012,"endTime":1754.102,"body":", don't feel beholden to respond, but"},{"startTime":1749.012,"endTime":1754.102,"body":"they're expecting that you're going to be"},{"startTime":1754.242,"endTime":1755.902,"body":"right there in real time communication."},{"startTime":1755.952,"endTime":1758.112,"body":"So if you're working for these"},{"startTime":1755.952,"endTime":1758.112,"body":"people, first of all, you have"},{"startTime":1758.112,"endTime":1759.992,"body":"to know who you're working for."},{"startTime":1760.272,"endTime":1763.692,"body":"If you're working for workaholics that"},{"startTime":1760.272,"endTime":1763.692,"body":"can't wait to get back in the office"},{"startTime":1763.692,"endTime":1764.962,"body":"because they hate their wife and kids."},{"startTime":1765.462,"endTime":1765.972,"body":"then yes."},{"startTime":1765.972,"endTime":1766.632,"body":"I'm with him."},{"startTime":1766.842,"endTime":1770.652,"body":"If I'm gonna defend him at all, I"},{"startTime":1766.842,"endTime":1770.652,"body":"will defend him on those grounds"},{"startTime":1770.952,"endTime":1773.557,"body":"Boy, I'm super sassy today when"},{"startTime":1770.952,"endTime":1773.557,"body":"we're back to the other side of it."},{"startTime":1773.937,"endTime":1774.277,"body":"Oh, please."},{"startTime":1774.417,"endTime":1777.712,"body":"Not, not the other side, but, but"},{"startTime":1774.417,"endTime":1777.712,"body":"a slightly different side of it."},{"startTime":1777.742,"endTime":1777.922,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1777.922,"endTime":1781.712,"body":"Signaling business and the way"},{"startTime":1777.922,"endTime":1781.712,"body":"he's saying it occasionally."},{"startTime":1782.012,"endTime":1784.922,"body":"Let people know you're all so busy."},{"startTime":1784.922,"endTime":1785.642,"body":"Yeah, you're so busy."},{"startTime":1785.782,"endTime":1788.362,"body":"So, there are many ways to do this, right?"},{"startTime":1788.412,"endTime":1789.782,"body":", you'll see this behavior, right?"},{"startTime":1789.782,"endTime":1792.062,"body":"Anyone who's been around"},{"startTime":1789.782,"endTime":1792.062,"body":"a bit, they've seen it."},{"startTime":1792.352,"endTime":1793.652,"body":"People will say, I'm so busy."},{"startTime":1793.922,"endTime":1795.922,"body":"Well put something on my calendar."},{"startTime":1795.952,"endTime":1797.712,"body":"And you can't find time on"},{"startTime":1795.952,"endTime":1797.712,"body":"their calendar because they've"},{"startTime":1797.712,"endTime":1798.342,"body":"blocked their own  calendar."},{"startTime":1798.342,"endTime":1800.122,"body":". There are different ways"},{"startTime":1798.342,"endTime":1800.122,"body":"of doing this, right?"},{"startTime":1800.342,"endTime":1801.152,"body":"So, you do that."},{"startTime":1801.192,"endTime":1803.572,"body":"And then the other thing is,"},{"startTime":1801.192,"endTime":1803.572,"body":"you do have an empty slot"},{"startTime":1803.592,"endTime":1805.032,"body":"that somebody happens to snag."},{"startTime":1805.032,"endTime":1806.872,"body":"And you say, listen, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1807.207,"endTime":1810.237,"body":"Somebody just booked that, and it's"},{"startTime":1807.207,"endTime":1810.237,"body":"leadership, so I can't meet with you."},{"startTime":1810.537,"endTime":1814.457,"body":"All of these are just signals that"},{"startTime":1810.537,"endTime":1814.457,"body":"say, I'm so busy to deal with you."},{"startTime":1814.467,"endTime":1815.457,"body":"I can't even talk to you."},{"startTime":1815.757,"endTime":1818.327,"body":"What he's saying is signaling busyness."},{"startTime":1818.757,"endTime":1823.527,"body":"That, that again, is that person who"},{"startTime":1818.757,"endTime":1823.527,"body":"wants to simply show how busy they are."},{"startTime":1823.957,"endTime":1827.167,"body":"They have many ways to do this,"},{"startTime":1823.957,"endTime":1827.167,"body":"including some of the ones you mentioned."},{"startTime":1827.177,"endTime":1829.267,"body":"schedule a Slack message"},{"startTime":1827.177,"endTime":1829.267,"body":"to go off on the weekend."},{"startTime":1829.287,"endTime":1832.747,"body":", hey, I just had a breakthrough after"},{"startTime":1829.287,"endTime":1832.747,"body":"three hours on a Sunday morning."},{"startTime":1832.777,"endTime":1834.437,"body":"and I haven't even had my first coffee."},{"startTime":1834.787,"endTime":1839.752,"body":"But, the only people that give a damn"},{"startTime":1834.787,"endTime":1839.752,"body":"about this stuff are Your leadership,"},{"startTime":1839.872,"endTime":1843.992,"body":"who is coveting this kind of"},{"startTime":1839.872,"endTime":1843.992,"body":"behavior, Nobody else cares, honestly."},{"startTime":1844.002,"endTime":1848.272,"body":"So if you want to create a career"},{"startTime":1844.002,"endTime":1848.272,"body":"out of things, and you have other PMs"},{"startTime":1848.282,"endTime":1852.682,"body":"there, they're going to look at you and"},{"startTime":1848.282,"endTime":1852.682,"body":"say, to themselves at least, you don't"},{"startTime":1852.682,"endTime":1854.722,"body":"know how to manage your time, right?"},{"startTime":1854.872,"endTime":1858.182,"body":"Whereas other people on the other"},{"startTime":1854.872,"endTime":1858.182,"body":"side they're going to covet this."},{"startTime":1858.212,"endTime":1860.452,"body":"They're going to say, this"},{"startTime":1858.212,"endTime":1860.452,"body":"person works very hard."},{"startTime":1860.792,"endTime":1864.242,"body":"You could even make a"},{"startTime":1860.792,"endTime":1864.242,"body":"request to have an FTE."},{"startTime":1864.467,"endTime":1865.697,"body":"join your team, right?"},{"startTime":1865.777,"endTime":1866.517,"body":"I'm so busy."},{"startTime":1866.517,"endTime":1868.767,"body":"I need somebody to help"},{"startTime":1866.517,"endTime":1868.767,"body":"me and you probably will."},{"startTime":1868.817,"endTime":1869.447,"body":"."},{"startTime":1868.817,"endTime":1869.447,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1869.537,"endTime":1870.677,"body":"It's feigning productivity."},{"startTime":1870.677,"endTime":1871.507,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":1871.857,"endTime":1875.707,"body":"I'm going to award 25 scooby points for"},{"startTime":1871.857,"endTime":1875.707,"body":"this one because . This is so normal"},{"startTime":1875.707,"endTime":1879.047,"body":"in corporate America And you might"},{"startTime":1875.707,"endTime":1879.047,"body":"sweep the category with that one cuz I"},{"startTime":1879.067,"endTime":1885.652,"body":"like I mean my my points with this Is"},{"startTime":1879.067,"endTime":1885.652,"body":"like you need leadership to Understand"},{"startTime":1885.652,"endTime":1887.622,"body":"that busyness is not productivity."},{"startTime":1887.972,"endTime":1890.192,"body":"those concepts are"},{"startTime":1887.972,"endTime":1890.192,"body":"divorced from one another."},{"startTime":1890.492,"endTime":1894.242,"body":", with the books podcasts and Forbes"},{"startTime":1890.492,"endTime":1894.242,"body":"articles  that leadership reads on"},{"startTime":1894.242,"endTime":1897.402,"body":"a normal basis, I just don't know if"},{"startTime":1894.242,"endTime":1897.402,"body":"they're getting that level of education."},{"startTime":1897.412,"endTime":1899.502,"body":"I mean, I mean, those crayons"},{"startTime":1897.412,"endTime":1899.502,"body":"are tasty, but they're not,"},{"startTime":1899.522,"endTime":1901.402,"body":"they're not leading to insight."},{"startTime":1901.632,"endTime":1905.522,"body":"Anyway, prioritizing customer meetings"},{"startTime":1901.632,"endTime":1905.522,"body":"the bigger the customer, the better."},{"startTime":1905.802,"endTime":1908.992,"body":"Take every customer meeting you"},{"startTime":1905.802,"endTime":1908.992,"body":"possibly can make yourself and your"},{"startTime":1909.002,"endTime":1911.172,"body":"company synonymous in their eyes."},{"startTime":1911.472,"endTime":1914.912,"body":"I'm going to have a hard time pushing"},{"startTime":1911.472,"endTime":1914.912,"body":"back against this one because the more"},{"startTime":1914.912,"endTime":1919.372,"body":"that you're meeting with customers, the"},{"startTime":1914.912,"endTime":1919.372,"body":"more valuable you are to the company."},{"startTime":1919.442,"endTime":1923.412,"body":"I have gone on record saying"},{"startTime":1919.442,"endTime":1923.412,"body":"that on previous podcasts, so"},{"startTime":1923.412,"endTime":1926.152,"body":"many, in fact, that I am not even"},{"startTime":1923.412,"endTime":1926.152,"body":"bothering trying to look back."},{"startTime":1926.507,"endTime":1928.817,"body":"In our archive to find"},{"startTime":1926.507,"endTime":1928.817,"body":"where I've said that."},{"startTime":1928.907,"endTime":1933.227,"body":"the other side of the argument"},{"startTime":1928.907,"endTime":1933.227,"body":"here, Brian, is this, You are"},{"startTime":1933.287,"endTime":1934.927,"body":"the company to the customer."},{"startTime":1934.957,"endTime":1936.947,"body":"So you're always going to take every call."},{"startTime":1937.317,"endTime":1941.927,"body":"The difference is if you're a PM a"},{"startTime":1937.317,"endTime":1941.927,"body":"career PM, You're going to actually"},{"startTime":1942.047,"endTime":1943.577,"body":"empathize with your customers."},{"startTime":1943.757,"endTime":1947.197,"body":"You're not going to sit there"},{"startTime":1943.757,"endTime":1947.197,"body":"and have coffee with them, right?"},{"startTime":1947.287,"endTime":1949.467,"body":"That's not, you're not"},{"startTime":1947.287,"endTime":1949.467,"body":"just there for show."},{"startTime":1949.957,"endTime":1954.057,"body":"And some of these people on the other"},{"startTime":1949.957,"endTime":1954.057,"body":"side of the equation, that's what they do."},{"startTime":1954.067,"endTime":1957.397,"body":"They say to the customer, look any"},{"startTime":1954.067,"endTime":1957.397,"body":"problem you have, you contact me."},{"startTime":1957.697,"endTime":1960.807,"body":"And the minute the customer contacts"},{"startTime":1957.697,"endTime":1960.807,"body":"that person, they're simply going"},{"startTime":1960.807,"endTime":1962.847,"body":"to get deflected onto somebody else."},{"startTime":1962.867,"endTime":1963.127,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1963.207,"endTime":1964.267,"body":"Pass through, pass back."},{"startTime":1964.277,"endTime":1964.867,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1964.897,"endTime":1969.057,"body":"So yeah, I mean, if you genuinely"},{"startTime":1964.897,"endTime":1969.057,"body":"care about your customers."},{"startTime":1969.537,"endTime":1973.147,"body":"The point that you've been making"},{"startTime":1969.537,"endTime":1973.147,"body":"on previous podcasts, great."},{"startTime":1973.177,"endTime":1974.667,"body":"I agree with that wholeheartedly."},{"startTime":1974.667,"endTime":1977.607,"body":"You really need to do that, and"},{"startTime":1974.667,"endTime":1977.607,"body":"not just PMs, by the way, right?"},{"startTime":1977.637,"endTime":1982.867,"body":"Everybody does people in support,"},{"startTime":1977.637,"endTime":1982.867,"body":"anybody, but these guys, they're only"},{"startTime":1982.867,"endTime":1989.547,"body":"doing it so that the customer sees them"},{"startTime":1982.867,"endTime":1989.547,"body":"as the company, and there's almost like"},{"startTime":1989.547,"endTime":1991.637,"body":"a vested interest on their part, right?"},{"startTime":1991.927,"endTime":1993.707,"body":"So when leadership hear about."},{"startTime":1994.007,"endTime":1995.497,"body":"Their name from the customer."},{"startTime":1995.497,"endTime":1998.577,"body":"It's always like these persons, these"},{"startTime":1995.497,"endTime":1998.577,"body":"people are always in the meetings."},{"startTime":1998.877,"endTime":1999.957,"body":"They care about us."},{"startTime":2000.257,"endTime":2001.547,"body":"The reality might be slightly different."},{"startTime":2001.947,"endTime":2003.377,"body":"It's disingenuous."},{"startTime":2003.667,"endTime":2004.067,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2004.077,"endTime":2005.287,"body":"That word keeps coming back up."},{"startTime":2005.287,"endTime":2009.799,"body":"Is it because  this is like where we talk"},{"startTime":2005.287,"endTime":2009.799,"body":"about say do ratios I know the podcast."},{"startTime":2009.799,"endTime":2012.117,"body":"This is the kind of thing like you"},{"startTime":2009.799,"endTime":2012.117,"body":"can be on all the customer calls"},{"startTime":2012.117,"endTime":2015.817,"body":"you want and Committing to helping"},{"startTime":2012.117,"endTime":2015.817,"body":"out with problems, but if nobody's"},{"startTime":2015.817,"endTime":2019.287,"body":"tracking like, Hey, are you actually"},{"startTime":2015.817,"endTime":2019.287,"body":"making an impact for these customers?"},{"startTime":2019.587,"endTime":2024.487,"body":"Yeah, I mean, which, is hard because"},{"startTime":2019.587,"endTime":2024.487,"body":"you making an impact and your"},{"startTime":2024.497,"endTime":2028.547,"body":"team making an impact might be one"},{"startTime":2024.497,"endTime":2028.547,"body":"in the same as far as stats go."},{"startTime":2028.847,"endTime":2031.977,"body":"Because again,, if you're really a cross"},{"startTime":2028.847,"endTime":2031.977,"body":"functional team where you're supposed to"},{"startTime":2031.997,"endTime":2035.837,"body":"be working together, but you're almost"},{"startTime":2031.997,"endTime":2035.837,"body":"dealing with that in a predatory manner"},{"startTime":2035.887,"endTime":2040.747,"body":"it's super easy to hide in this category"},{"startTime":2035.887,"endTime":2040.747,"body":"of like, Oh, the customer knows my name."},{"startTime":2040.797,"endTime":2041.257,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2041.307,"endTime":2047.707,"body":"Yeah ah, man, this was, this was, this is"},{"startTime":2041.307,"endTime":2047.707,"body":"like, I don't it's, it's, it's negative"},{"startTime":2047.757,"endTime":2050.777,"body":"15 points for me not making a cohesive."},{"startTime":2051.232,"endTime":2056.892,"body":"Push against the predatory nature"},{"startTime":2051.232,"endTime":2056.892,"body":"of this and plus 15 points for you."},{"startTime":2057.192,"endTime":2058.802,"body":"Man, this, this one's a tough one."},{"startTime":2058.832,"endTime":2063.032,"body":"The people that have established the"},{"startTime":2058.832,"endTime":2063.032,"body":"ability to insert themselves in the"},{"startTime":2063.042,"endTime":2066.802,"body":"middle of the communication channel,"},{"startTime":2063.042,"endTime":2066.802,"body":"between the people doing the work."},{"startTime":2067.147,"endTime":2070.247,"body":"And the people that need the work"},{"startTime":2067.147,"endTime":2070.247,"body":"done, , you've just rolled the clocks"},{"startTime":2070.247,"endTime":2074.037,"body":"back to,  before the agile manifesto"},{"startTime":2070.247,"endTime":2074.037,"body":"at that point,  you say, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2074.057,"endTime":2077.307,"body":"The customer talks to me and tells"},{"startTime":2074.057,"endTime":2077.307,"body":"me all their problems and they don't"},{"startTime":2077.307,"endTime":2078.427,"body":"tell anyone else their problems."},{"startTime":2078.457,"endTime":2081.107,"body":"And then I might pass"},{"startTime":2078.457,"endTime":2081.107,"body":"those problems along."},{"startTime":2081.117,"endTime":2082.497,"body":"Well, you're a gatekeeper at that point."},{"startTime":2082.507,"endTime":2085.057,"body":"You're doing that to ensure"},{"startTime":2082.507,"endTime":2085.057,"body":"that you still have a job."},{"startTime":2085.157,"endTime":2085.817,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2086.057,"endTime":2088.127,"body":"So I think some of this touches on."},{"startTime":2088.517,"endTime":2092.267,"body":"Taylorism people doing the"},{"startTime":2088.517,"endTime":2092.267,"body":"work don't really know, right."},{"startTime":2092.547,"endTime":2097.557,"body":"And in management, I know, so I'm"},{"startTime":2092.547,"endTime":2097.557,"body":"going to be the person who's front"},{"startTime":2097.557,"endTime":2099.307,"body":"and center with the customer."},{"startTime":2099.307,"endTime":2103.067,"body":"And I'll just pass the message"},{"startTime":2099.307,"endTime":2103.067,"body":"back down to people doing the work."},{"startTime":2103.127,"endTime":2106.067,"body":"First of all, , I went back and"},{"startTime":2103.127,"endTime":2106.067,"body":"listened to our Taylorism, arguing"},{"startTime":2106.077,"endTime":2109.487,"body":"agile, like 52 or whatever, . I went"},{"startTime":2106.077,"endTime":2109.487,"body":"back and listened to that recently."},{"startTime":2109.887,"endTime":2111.537,"body":"And I don't know if that is Taylorism."},{"startTime":2111.567,"endTime":2113.917,"body":"I think that's just"},{"startTime":2111.567,"endTime":2113.917,"body":"somebody being predatory."},{"startTime":2114.217,"endTime":2117.727,"body":"It's like somebody being a bad actor"},{"startTime":2114.217,"endTime":2117.727,"body":"because , in Taylorism, we brought"},{"startTime":2117.727,"endTime":2122.177,"body":"somebody in to study the work do real,"},{"startTime":2117.727,"endTime":2122.177,"body":"dive into the business, understand how"},{"startTime":2122.177,"endTime":2123.967,"body":"things work, work with the workers,"},{"startTime":2124.367,"endTime":2125.347,"body":"this is not that."},{"startTime":2125.407,"endTime":2129.357,"body":"this is somebody just inserting"},{"startTime":2125.407,"endTime":2129.357,"body":"themselves in between processes"},{"startTime":2129.357,"endTime":2130.727,"body":"where they're basically not needed."},{"startTime":2131.027,"endTime":2131.527,"body":"Control."},{"startTime":2131.557,"endTime":2133.027,"body":"It is definitely just that."},{"startTime":2133.347,"endTime":2134.507,"body":"Controlling, yes."},{"startTime":2134.707,"endTime":2138.977,"body":"That's a big part of what"},{"startTime":2134.707,"endTime":2138.977,"body":"management did in Taylorism anyway."},{"startTime":2139.217,"endTime":2140.517,"body":"we can agree on that one."},{"startTime":2140.817,"endTime":2141.577,"body":"Oh, well,"},{"startTime":2141.627,"endTime":2144.687,"body":"I feel you were the first one to"},{"startTime":2141.627,"endTime":2144.687,"body":"mention Taylorism, so you lose"},{"startTime":2144.687,"endTime":2145.527,"body":"all your points in this category."},{"startTime":2145.527,"endTime":2146.907,"body":"That's the way it works in this podcast."},{"startTime":2147.087,"endTime":2148.747,"body":"You mentioned Taylorism first, you lose."},{"startTime":2148.747,"endTime":2151.877,"body":"I mean,  at the point you mentioned"},{"startTime":2148.747,"endTime":2151.877,"body":"Taylorism the category is over"},{"startTime":2151.967,"endTime":2155.377,"body":"I mean, we're not done with the podcast"},{"startTime":2151.967,"endTime":2155.377,"body":"Which is fortunate because that could"},{"startTime":2155.377,"endTime":2158.417,"body":"be the rule on the new arguing as a"},{"startTime":2155.377,"endTime":2158.417,"body":"podcast like you mentioned Taylorism"},{"startTime":2158.607,"endTime":2160.527,"body":"podcast is over immediately Yikes."},{"startTime":2160.827,"endTime":2161.057,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":2161.067,"endTime":2167.517,"body":"his next point is Succinct . He"},{"startTime":2161.067,"endTime":2167.517,"body":"says, avoid engineering's day to day."},{"startTime":2167.837,"endTime":2170.657,"body":"There's no upside in the weeds."},{"startTime":2170.897,"endTime":2173.577,"body":"Praise them, but stay"},{"startTime":2170.897,"endTime":2173.577,"body":"out of their decisions."},{"startTime":2173.877,"endTime":2176.417,"body":"Oh, I just pulled the pin"},{"startTime":2173.877,"endTime":2176.417,"body":"and walked out of the room."},{"startTime":2176.467,"endTime":2176.907,"body":"Sure did."},{"startTime":2176.997,"endTime":2177.987,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":2178.297,"endTime":2180.552,"body":", how many times have we seen this, right?"},{"startTime":2180.752,"endTime":2183.662,"body":"people in the room have"},{"startTime":2180.752,"endTime":2183.662,"body":"no idea which way is up."},{"startTime":2184.062,"endTime":2186.902,"body":"However, golf swing guy,"},{"startTime":2184.062,"endTime":2186.902,"body":"golf swing guy, exactly."},{"startTime":2186.902,"endTime":2187.632,"body":"Golf swing guy."},{"startTime":2187.792,"endTime":2190.122,"body":"So they're going to say, well,"},{"startTime":2187.792,"endTime":2190.122,"body":"listen, I know this is really"},{"startTime":2190.122,"endTime":2194.282,"body":"complicated, but I have every"},{"startTime":2190.122,"endTime":2194.282,"body":"confidence in you, my tech team."},{"startTime":2194.292,"endTime":2194.722,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2194.762,"endTime":2197.472,"body":"And the tech team sitting"},{"startTime":2194.762,"endTime":2197.472,"body":"there going, this is easy."},{"startTime":2197.772,"endTime":2199.032,"body":"We could have done this by now."},{"startTime":2199.402,"endTime":2203.052,"body":"We've been talking about it for two"},{"startTime":2199.402,"endTime":2203.052,"body":"minutes so this is very prevalent."},{"startTime":2203.062,"endTime":2206.362,"body":"When you see it in practice,"},{"startTime":2203.062,"endTime":2206.362,"body":"it kind of almost  gives you"},{"startTime":2206.362,"endTime":2207.482,"body":"the heebie jeebies right?"},{"startTime":2207.782,"endTime":2212.922,"body":"So people are, people are praising"},{"startTime":2207.782,"endTime":2212.922,"body":"the technical people by over"},{"startTime":2212.922,"endTime":2216.982,"body":"inflating the complexity of the work"},{"startTime":2212.922,"endTime":2216.982,"body":"that needs to be done sometimes."},{"startTime":2217.472,"endTime":2219.862,"body":"Sometimes not, but most"},{"startTime":2217.472,"endTime":2219.862,"body":"times they are doing that."},{"startTime":2220.252,"endTime":2223.212,"body":"They're saying this is very complicated,"},{"startTime":2220.252,"endTime":2223.212,"body":"but we have a very smart team."},{"startTime":2223.552,"endTime":2224.752,"body":"We know we can take care of you, Mr."},{"startTime":2224.822,"endTime":2225.602,"body":"Customer, right?"},{"startTime":2225.902,"endTime":2229.162,"body":"If you have a savvy customer"},{"startTime":2225.902,"endTime":2229.162,"body":"who's technical as well, they get"},{"startTime":2229.162,"endTime":2232.662,"body":"that, and they're like, Okay, it's"},{"startTime":2229.162,"endTime":2232.662,"body":"just lip service at that point."},{"startTime":2232.962,"endTime":2237.172,"body":"So, that person loses points,"},{"startTime":2232.962,"endTime":2237.172,"body":"in the eyes of the customer, but"},{"startTime":2237.492,"endTime":2238.542,"body":"they're not going to say anything."},{"startTime":2238.872,"endTime":2240.442,"body":"The customer's not going"},{"startTime":2238.872,"endTime":2240.442,"body":"to say anything, right?"},{"startTime":2240.762,"endTime":2244.602,"body":"If The product manager also has"},{"startTime":2240.762,"endTime":2244.602,"body":"leadership in the room at the time."},{"startTime":2244.902,"endTime":2247.682,"body":"Leadership's going to look at"},{"startTime":2244.902,"endTime":2247.682,"body":"the product manager and they're"},{"startTime":2247.682,"endTime":2249.252,"body":"doing a great job, right?"},{"startTime":2249.562,"endTime":2253.482,"body":"Because they are praising"},{"startTime":2249.562,"endTime":2253.482,"body":"the people doing the work."},{"startTime":2253.782,"endTime":2254.472,"body":"This is great."},{"startTime":2254.822,"endTime":2258.282,"body":", There's a lot of phony"},{"startTime":2254.822,"endTime":2258.282,"body":"attaboy sentiment in here."},{"startTime":2258.632,"endTime":2259.652,"body":"So I don't know about this."},{"startTime":2259.922,"endTime":2261.352,"body":"Avoiding engineering day to day."},{"startTime":2261.652,"endTime":2265.172,"body":"The best product managers will"},{"startTime":2261.652,"endTime":2265.172,"body":"bring the technical team in"},{"startTime":2265.172,"endTime":2266.672,"body":"and say, , what do you think?"},{"startTime":2267.072,"endTime":2270.562,"body":"? And listen to them and not push"},{"startTime":2267.072,"endTime":2270.562,"body":"back and, and placate them."},{"startTime":2270.572,"endTime":2271.892,"body":"Sometimes people do that too."},{"startTime":2271.922,"endTime":2273.662,"body":"They'll just say, you're,"},{"startTime":2271.922,"endTime":2273.662,"body":"you're very smart."},{"startTime":2273.672,"endTime":2275.492,"body":"You can have this knocked"},{"startTime":2273.672,"endTime":2275.492,"body":"down in a day, right?"},{"startTime":2275.502,"endTime":2275.882,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2275.992,"endTime":2277.452,"body":"And teams don't push back."},{"startTime":2277.512,"endTime":2281.632,"body":"They're like, it's really not a day's"},{"startTime":2277.512,"endTime":2281.632,"body":"worth of work, but how do we push back?"},{"startTime":2281.812,"endTime":2283.032,"body":"You know, as a product manager."},{"startTime":2283.482,"endTime":2285.982,"body":"I think I've seen both of"},{"startTime":2283.482,"endTime":2285.982,"body":"those scenarios before."},{"startTime":2286.452,"endTime":2287.882,"body":"This is a great category."},{"startTime":2287.882,"endTime":2291.082,"body":"again, this is another one to lightly"},{"startTime":2287.882,"endTime":2291.082,"body":"push back you obviously have taken"},{"startTime":2291.082,"endTime":2295.232,"body":"the position of this is a ridiculous"},{"startTime":2291.082,"endTime":2295.232,"body":"point  if I'm going to try to defend"},{"startTime":2295.232,"endTime":2299.262,"body":"him I will defend him by saying the"},{"startTime":2295.232,"endTime":2299.262,"body":"people that make decisions on behalf"},{"startTime":2299.262,"endTime":2302.312,"body":"of the business can be the person that"},{"startTime":2299.262,"endTime":2302.312,"body":"everybody in the whole business points"},{"startTime":2302.312,"endTime":2304.412,"body":"to like, they made that decision, right?"},{"startTime":2304.432,"endTime":2306.422,"body":"To be under the gun like that."},{"startTime":2306.822,"endTime":2309.592,"body":"There's no point to be this,"},{"startTime":2306.822,"endTime":2309.592,"body":"this is the product manager"},{"startTime":2309.592,"endTime":2310.972,"body":"who doesn't go to refinements."},{"startTime":2311.312,"endTime":2314.782,"body":"Who just says this is the top"},{"startTime":2311.312,"endTime":2314.782,"body":"priority, you guys figure it out, okay?"},{"startTime":2315.082,"endTime":2320.102,"body":"The majority of my time is spent"},{"startTime":2315.082,"endTime":2320.102,"body":"figuring out like, why we're doing it."},{"startTime":2320.152,"endTime":2321.382,"body":"I'm gonna tell you the why."},{"startTime":2321.692,"endTime":2324.632,"body":"This is the business context"},{"startTime":2321.692,"endTime":2324.632,"body":"of why we're doing this."},{"startTime":2325.102,"endTime":2327.272,"body":"And then how you get"},{"startTime":2325.102,"endTime":2327.272,"body":"it done, I don't care."},{"startTime":2327.542,"endTime":2330.572,"body":"But then I feel like , the why"},{"startTime":2327.542,"endTime":2330.572,"body":"and the how being pulled apart."},{"startTime":2330.872,"endTime":2335.422,"body":"For the purpose of this conversation,"},{"startTime":2330.872,"endTime":2335.422,"body":", that why and how there's a level that"},{"startTime":2335.432,"endTime":2339.602,"body":"why and how get pulled apart at, and"},{"startTime":2335.432,"endTime":2339.602,"body":"this person is pulling the why and"},{"startTime":2339.602,"endTime":2342.182,"body":"the how apart at a very high level."},{"startTime":2342.192,"endTime":2346.902,"body":"Oh, listen, not only that, there's"},{"startTime":2342.192,"endTime":2346.902,"body":"the third question in there, the what."},{"startTime":2347.162,"endTime":2350.522,"body":"So the team's sitting there going,"},{"startTime":2347.162,"endTime":2350.522,"body":"what are we supposed to be doing?"},{"startTime":2350.992,"endTime":2352.932,"body":"Yeah, you've told us why"},{"startTime":2350.992,"endTime":2352.932,"body":"we're doing this, right?"},{"startTime":2352.932,"endTime":2355.772,"body":"It's going to save this client"},{"startTime":2352.932,"endTime":2355.772,"body":"millions or whatever it is,"},{"startTime":2355.772,"endTime":2356.822,"body":"therefore it's a good thing."},{"startTime":2356.842,"endTime":2356.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2356.942,"endTime":2357.562,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":2357.632,"endTime":2361.642,"body":", if we're going to take the cynicism out"},{"startTime":2357.632,"endTime":2361.642,"body":"of what he's saying, the product manager"},{"startTime":2361.942,"endTime":2366.952,"body":"subbing in for business leadership, I'm"},{"startTime":2361.942,"endTime":2366.952,"body":"coming in to give you the why, and then"},{"startTime":2367.082,"endTime":2369.052,"body":"I'm leaving the what to you, You're right."},{"startTime":2369.092,"endTime":2369.692,"body":"I should be."},{"startTime":2369.982,"endTime":2373.022,"body":"Participating actively, an"},{"startTime":2369.982,"endTime":2373.022,"body":"active voice in the what?"},{"startTime":2373.192,"endTime":2373.532,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2373.572,"endTime":2374.222,"body":"You are correct."},{"startTime":2374.392,"endTime":2376.212,"body":"You should be an active voice in the what?"},{"startTime":2376.212,"endTime":2379.452,"body":"Especially  when I have multiple"},{"startTime":2376.212,"endTime":2379.452,"body":"dev teams, or if you use some of"},{"startTime":2379.452,"endTime":2383.962,"body":"these completely wacky frameworks,"},{"startTime":2379.452,"endTime":2383.962,"body":"like less, where one product manager"},{"startTime":2383.962,"endTime":2387.682,"body":"is like 30 teams or whatever, Mike"},{"startTime":2383.962,"endTime":2387.682,"body":"Miller, back me up in the comments."},{"startTime":2387.682,"endTime":2390.762,"body":"You're in there to be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2387.682,"endTime":2390.762,"body":"this is the business, I don't have"},{"startTime":2390.772,"endTime":2396.192,"body":"time to explain to every single"},{"startTime":2390.772,"endTime":2396.192,"body":"dev team servicing this function."},{"startTime":2396.512,"endTime":2400.312,"body":"I got to go if you're in a framework"},{"startTime":2396.512,"endTime":2400.312,"body":"like that, or when you're trying to"},{"startTime":2400.312,"endTime":2403.952,"body":"launch a release train and you've"},{"startTime":2400.312,"endTime":2403.952,"body":"got many teams I just don't have"},{"startTime":2403.952,"endTime":2407.032,"body":"time to explain to every single team."},{"startTime":2407.382,"endTime":2408.392,"body":"I'm gonna give you the why."},{"startTime":2408.562,"endTime":2411.502,"body":"You should be smart enough"},{"startTime":2408.562,"endTime":2411.502,"body":"to extrapolate the what."},{"startTime":2411.892,"endTime":2416.962,"body":"if you get your what wrong, come back"},{"startTime":2411.892,"endTime":2416.962,"body":"to me with that specific single thing."},{"startTime":2417.292,"endTime":2419.802,"body":"I'll set you straight, and then"},{"startTime":2417.292,"endTime":2419.802,"body":"I'll bounce out and go play golf."},{"startTime":2419.962,"endTime":2421.862,"body":"Listen, I got golf games to get to, Om."},{"startTime":2421.882,"endTime":2427.482,"body":"Listen, so a lot of times what happens"},{"startTime":2421.882,"endTime":2427.482,"body":"is The PMs will leave the watts and even,"},{"startTime":2427.782,"endTime":2430.582,"body":"even the Ys to their product owners."},{"startTime":2430.712,"endTime":2433.712,"body":"They'll just say, here's a"},{"startTime":2430.712,"endTime":2433.712,"body":"customer, they need to do this."},{"startTime":2433.802,"endTime":2434.282,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":2434.352,"endTime":2435.612,"body":"Real high level."},{"startTime":2435.842,"endTime":2439.322,"body":"And unfortunately, the teams aren't"},{"startTime":2435.842,"endTime":2439.322,"body":"getting their value out of that"},{"startTime":2439.322,"endTime":2441.032,"body":"conversation at that point in time."},{"startTime":2441.322,"endTime":2444.622,"body":"So unless that is decoded for them,"},{"startTime":2441.322,"endTime":2444.622,"body":"they're going to be in trouble."},{"startTime":2444.842,"endTime":2450.442,"body":"Some places they use delivery"},{"startTime":2444.842,"endTime":2450.442,"body":"managers whose job it is to relay"},{"startTime":2450.442,"endTime":2455.162,"body":"to the team and reinforce not"},{"startTime":2450.442,"endTime":2455.162,"body":"only the what, the why, right?"},{"startTime":2455.222,"endTime":2457.982,"body":"And then say, okay, team, tell me the how."},{"startTime":2458.072,"endTime":2458.862,"body":"You tell me."},{"startTime":2459.092,"endTime":2461.482,"body":"And then we'll figure out"},{"startTime":2459.092,"endTime":2461.482,"body":"how we can actually make the"},{"startTime":2461.482,"endTime":2462.752,"body":"delivery to the customer."},{"startTime":2463.052,"endTime":2467.372,"body":"These delivery managers are"},{"startTime":2463.052,"endTime":2467.372,"body":"earning their keep, right?"},{"startTime":2467.692,"endTime":2469.822,"body":"These are the guys that"},{"startTime":2467.692,"endTime":2469.822,"body":"are doing it right."},{"startTime":2470.122,"endTime":2473.302,"body":"And they are project managers that are"},{"startTime":2470.122,"endTime":2473.302,"body":"simply looking for dates, but they're"},{"startTime":2473.302,"endTime":2475.032,"body":"doing a function of product management."},{"startTime":2475.042,"endTime":2477.442,"body":"I'm about to just seed all my"},{"startTime":2475.042,"endTime":2477.442,"body":"points just to move on because"},{"startTime":2477.612,"endTime":2479.042,"body":"of how scared of this category."},{"startTime":2479.042,"endTime":2482.812,"body":"And because we can do a whole"},{"startTime":2479.042,"endTime":2482.812,"body":"podcast on just this category your"},{"startTime":2482.812,"endTime":2486.562,"body":"quote, business people, some people"},{"startTime":2482.812,"endTime":2486.562,"body":"lump product managers in with the"},{"startTime":2486.562,"endTime":2488.222,"body":"business people rather than like."},{"startTime":2488.587,"endTime":2491.907,"body":"They're not the tech people, or the"},{"startTime":2488.587,"endTime":2491.907,"body":"business people, or the leadership people,"},{"startTime":2491.957,"endTime":2494.117,"body":"They own the whole thing end to end."},{"startTime":2494.117,"endTime":2495.457,"body":"They're responsible end to end."},{"startTime":2495.757,"endTime":2498.257,"body":"So you don't get to be like,"},{"startTime":2495.757,"endTime":2498.257,"body":"I'm responsible but I don't"},{"startTime":2498.257,"endTime":2499.637,"body":"want to talk to the dev teams."},{"startTime":2499.797,"endTime":2500.957,"body":"I don't want to talk to customer service."},{"startTime":2501.087,"endTime":2502.257,"body":"I don't want to talk"},{"startTime":2501.087,"endTime":2502.257,"body":"directly to customers."},{"startTime":2502.357,"endTime":2506.934,"body":"When you're a leader, you don't get"},{"startTime":2502.357,"endTime":2506.934,"body":"to push off different  accountability"},{"startTime":2506.934,"endTime":2510.296,"body":"rests with you,  the buck stops with"},{"startTime":2506.934,"endTime":2510.296,"body":"you and also the points stop with you."},{"startTime":2510.316,"endTime":2510.916,"body":"So there we go."},{"startTime":2510.956,"endTime":2511.686,"body":"Points are over."},{"startTime":2512.006,"endTime":2514.846,"body":"We're not awarding points because"},{"startTime":2512.006,"endTime":2514.846,"body":"the buck has already stopped."},{"startTime":2515.086,"endTime":2515.516,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2515.816,"endTime":2521.116,"body":"So he says the next  category"},{"startTime":2515.816,"endTime":2521.116,"body":"under workload management is Don't"},{"startTime":2521.236,"endTime":2526.046,"body":"overstep if engineering UX or"},{"startTime":2521.236,"endTime":2526.046,"body":"marketing makes a bad call Let them"},{"startTime":2526.066,"endTime":2531.666,"body":"own it if asked for a decision defer"},{"startTime":2526.066,"endTime":2531.666,"body":"back to them This is a classic non"},{"startTime":2531.666,"endTime":2533.516,"body":"committal situation here, right?"},{"startTime":2533.516,"endTime":2537.001,"body":"So this is like neo in the matrix where"},{"startTime":2533.516,"endTime":2537.001,"body":"he's dodging all the bullets He's letting"},{"startTime":2537.001,"endTime":2539.111,"body":"them hit all his developers and UX people."},{"startTime":2539.231,"endTime":2539.551,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2539.611,"endTime":2541.001,"body":"First of all, I'm going to"},{"startTime":2539.611,"endTime":2541.001,"body":"take all the points from the"},{"startTime":2541.001,"endTime":2542.331,"body":"category and I win immediately."},{"startTime":2542.331,"endTime":2542.471,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2542.851,"endTime":2543.841,"body":"It's blame shifting."},{"startTime":2543.861,"endTime":2544.641,"body":"I don't like it."},{"startTime":2547.193,"endTime":2551.033,"body":"So his next category is, sorry,"},{"startTime":2547.193,"endTime":2551.033,"body":"his next category is seek low"},{"startTime":2551.063,"endTime":2552.903,"body":"effort, high visibility wins."},{"startTime":2553.093,"endTime":2557.043,"body":"Organize fantasy football leagues,"},{"startTime":2553.093,"endTime":2557.043,"body":"facilitate post it brainstorming"},{"startTime":2557.043,"endTime":2559.573,"body":"sessions, or run Friday show and tells."},{"startTime":2559.873,"endTime":2564.353,"body":"Yeah, the illusion of progress"},{"startTime":2559.873,"endTime":2564.353,"body":"is real with these people, right?"},{"startTime":2564.573,"endTime":2568.153,"body":", something that they can show and"},{"startTime":2564.573,"endTime":2568.153,"body":"tell, something that they can"},{"startTime":2568.153,"endTime":2570.603,"body":"invite their leadership people to."},{"startTime":2570.903,"endTime":2572.473,"body":"That's really what they're going for here."},{"startTime":2572.733,"endTime":2573.593,"body":"Nothing real."},{"startTime":2573.993,"endTime":2577.663,"body":"It's not like a product review"},{"startTime":2573.993,"endTime":2577.663,"body":"or anything like that here,"},{"startTime":2577.693,"endTime":2579.633,"body":"hackathons, promote those."},{"startTime":2579.673,"endTime":2583.043,"body":"distract the team in those things"},{"startTime":2579.673,"endTime":2583.043,"body":"And then invite your leadership and"},{"startTime":2583.043,"endTime":2585.113,"body":"say, look at how our teams are doing."},{"startTime":2585.113,"endTime":2585.623,"body":"fantastic."},{"startTime":2585.623,"endTime":2586.313,"body":"So innovative."},{"startTime":2586.463,"endTime":2587.363,"body":"I don't know if I agree."},{"startTime":2587.403,"endTime":2591.443,"body":"he's claiming these things are trivial"},{"startTime":2587.403,"endTime":2591.443,"body":"I don't agree with his claim that these"},{"startTime":2591.443,"endTime":2593.303,"body":"things are trivial or filler or whatever."},{"startTime":2593.483,"endTime":2596.613,"body":"I think these things are like"},{"startTime":2593.483,"endTime":2596.613,"body":"culture building activities and"},{"startTime":2596.613,"endTime":2598.803,"body":"quite honestly, how dare you co-opt."},{"startTime":2599.168,"endTime":2602.938,"body":"These culture building activities"},{"startTime":2599.168,"endTime":2602.938,"body":"under the guise of being cynical"},{"startTime":2602.938,"endTime":2605.198,"body":"and burnt out these are things"},{"startTime":2602.938,"endTime":2605.198,"body":"that bring teams together."},{"startTime":2605.298,"endTime":2605.998,"body":"That is true."},{"startTime":2606.168,"endTime":2607.068,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2607.078,"endTime":2613.198,"body":"However, coming from this PM as illusion"},{"startTime":2607.078,"endTime":2613.198,"body":"of progress, they're simply using these."},{"startTime":2613.628,"endTime":2616.008,"body":"to say, look at what I'm"},{"startTime":2613.628,"endTime":2616.008,"body":"doing here with my team."},{"startTime":2616.048,"endTime":2618.738,"body":"Well, he's saying, he's saying,"},{"startTime":2616.048,"endTime":2618.738,"body":"well, he's saying, I'm going to"},{"startTime":2618.998,"endTime":2621.428,"body":"like, I'm not going to do the PM job."},{"startTime":2621.768,"endTime":2625.408,"body":"I'm going to do this other alternate"},{"startTime":2621.768,"endTime":2625.408,"body":"stream of work of building culture"},{"startTime":2625.408,"endTime":2628.098,"body":"connecting teams and doing team"},{"startTime":2625.408,"endTime":2628.098,"body":"building  he's building culture."},{"startTime":2628.188,"endTime":2630.668,"body":"He's  going to do these other"},{"startTime":2628.188,"endTime":2630.668,"body":"culture building things as"},{"startTime":2630.698,"endTime":2633.298,"body":"a avenue to distract people."},{"startTime":2633.643,"endTime":2636.753,"body":"From the fact that I'm a"},{"startTime":2633.643,"endTime":2636.753,"body":"bad PM or burnt out PM."},{"startTime":2636.763,"endTime":2640.043,"body":"Actually, actually, that's what that's"},{"startTime":2636.763,"endTime":2640.043,"body":"what he really is  these activities"},{"startTime":2640.073,"endTime":2644.293,"body":"in and of themselves do have value"},{"startTime":2640.073,"endTime":2644.293,"body":"they do have value and there's no"},{"startTime":2644.293,"endTime":2648.423,"body":"reason that our PM who's also making"},{"startTime":2644.293,"endTime":2648.423,"body":"impact Can't also do these things."},{"startTime":2648.523,"endTime":2651.603,"body":"All right, let's move on to the"},{"startTime":2648.523,"endTime":2651.603,"body":"third and final category, which"},{"startTime":2651.603,"endTime":2653.803,"body":"is accountability practices."},{"startTime":2653.803,"endTime":2654.123,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2654.453,"endTime":2657.633,"body":"So he outlines a few things for,"},{"startTime":2654.453,"endTime":2657.633,"body":"accountability, let's talk about this."},{"startTime":2657.893,"endTime":2663.713,"body":"Number one, podcast, never own failure."},{"startTime":2663.733,"endTime":2666.863,"body":"If a product or feature"},{"startTime":2663.733,"endTime":2666.863,"body":"flops, don't walk it back."},{"startTime":2667.143,"endTime":2670.223,"body":"Just kick it down the road, identify"},{"startTime":2667.143,"endTime":2670.223,"body":"some hypothetical point in the"},{"startTime":2670.223,"endTime":2673.693,"body":"future where it could be successful,"},{"startTime":2670.223,"endTime":2673.693,"body":"and get everyone on board with it."},{"startTime":2673.993,"endTime":2675.723,"body":"I feel like I just flipped a table."},{"startTime":2675.753,"endTime":2676.613,"body":"You did, you did."},{"startTime":2676.673,"endTime":2678.083,"body":"Listen, never own failure."},{"startTime":2678.263,"endTime":2679.283,"body":"Never own failure."},{"startTime":2679.393,"endTime":2683.833,"body":"For all the listeners Om is pointing at"},{"startTime":2679.393,"endTime":2683.833,"body":"everyone else in the room except himself."},{"startTime":2683.833,"endTime":2690.303,"body":"These PMS that Basically do not own"},{"startTime":2683.833,"endTime":2690.303,"body":"failure are really tooting their own horn,"},{"startTime":2690.743,"endTime":2696.513,"body":"even in failure, saying, I told you, if"},{"startTime":2690.743,"endTime":2696.513,"body":"you'd listen to me, right, these are the"},{"startTime":2696.513,"endTime":2702.153,"body":"people that are so dangerous because now"},{"startTime":2696.513,"endTime":2702.153,"body":"the teams are going, well, We told you"},{"startTime":2702.453,"endTime":2705.833,"body":"that we shouldn't be doing these things,"},{"startTime":2702.453,"endTime":2705.833,"body":"but you insisted we have to do them."},{"startTime":2706.083,"endTime":2709.243,"body":"So we did them and now we failed"},{"startTime":2706.083,"endTime":2709.243,"body":"and now it's not your fault,"},{"startTime":2709.243,"endTime":2710.733,"body":"but ours, how does that work?"},{"startTime":2711.093,"endTime":2715.903,"body":"So I've seen this, I've seen this before"},{"startTime":2711.093,"endTime":2715.903,"body":"and these, I've actually, believe it or"},{"startTime":2715.903,"endTime":2721.833,"body":"not, in the scenario of a failure, I have"},{"startTime":2715.903,"endTime":2721.833,"body":"seen the point people, RPM in this case,"},{"startTime":2722.163,"endTime":2727.753,"body":"get promoted in light of the failure"},{"startTime":2722.163,"endTime":2727.753,"body":"because they are very good at deflecting"},{"startTime":2728.103,"endTime":2730.643,"body":"and along with that, I'll"},{"startTime":2728.103,"endTime":2730.643,"body":"give you all my points."},{"startTime":2730.653,"endTime":2731.663,"body":"I will accept them."},{"startTime":2731.703,"endTime":2735.083,"body":"And as far as my acceptance"},{"startTime":2731.703,"endTime":2735.083,"body":"speech goes, here we go."},{"startTime":2735.143,"endTime":2739.783,"body":"First I'd like to thank all of the"},{"startTime":2735.143,"endTime":2739.783,"body":"leadership who don't track metrics and"},{"startTime":2739.783,"endTime":2741.683,"body":"could care less to look into metrics."},{"startTime":2741.983,"endTime":2744.183,"body":"The second person I'd like"},{"startTime":2741.983,"endTime":2744.183,"body":"to thank is my developers."},{"startTime":2744.613,"endTime":2749.033,"body":"Who will stand by for this and not grab"},{"startTime":2744.613,"endTime":2749.033,"body":"torches and pitchforks and burn it all"},{"startTime":2749.033,"endTime":2752.393,"body":"down and be like, listen, if you're not"},{"startTime":2749.033,"endTime":2752.393,"body":"going to pass any of this responsibility"},{"startTime":2752.533,"endTime":2756.673,"body":"or thanks or gratuity, through to us,"},{"startTime":2752.533,"endTime":2756.673,"body":"we're not going to go out on a limb"},{"startTime":2756.673,"endTime":2760.473,"body":"anymore and be up in the middle of the"},{"startTime":2756.673,"endTime":2760.473,"body":"night supporting the system for you."},{"startTime":2760.743,"endTime":2764.443,"body":"The problem with this one, like never"},{"startTime":2760.743,"endTime":2764.443,"body":"owning the failure is the people"},{"startTime":2764.443,"endTime":2766.883,"body":"that you're blaming at some point."},{"startTime":2767.348,"endTime":2771.308,"body":"Are gonna come in the middle of the"},{"startTime":2767.348,"endTime":2771.308,"body":"night and it's not gonna be a pleasant"},{"startTime":2771.308,"endTime":2775.138,"body":"experience when they do They're gonna"},{"startTime":2771.308,"endTime":2775.138,"body":"storm castle frankenstein in the middle of"},{"startTime":2775.138,"endTime":2778.878,"body":"the night during a lightning storm Yeah,"},{"startTime":2775.138,"endTime":2778.878,"body":"it's not a good time to be out on the"},{"startTime":2778.878,"endTime":2782.378,"body":"road, but they're gonna do it That's how"},{"startTime":2778.878,"endTime":2782.378,"body":"dedicated they are sadly a lot of them are"},{"startTime":2782.428,"endTime":2786.538,"body":"offshored and the ones that are not really"},{"startTime":2782.428,"endTime":2786.538,"body":"care for their visas Well, luckily that's"},{"startTime":2786.548,"endTime":2790.173,"body":"we put all our money offshore so that"},{"startTime":2786.548,"endTime":2790.173,"body":"we can just get rid of those people The"},{"startTime":2790.173,"endTime":2792.523,"body":"moment they're not completely positive."},{"startTime":2792.653,"endTime":2795.873,"body":"That was a callback to early in"},{"startTime":2792.653,"endTime":2795.873,"body":"the podcast because I have all"},{"startTime":2795.873,"endTime":2798.323,"body":"the points  so it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":2795.873,"endTime":2798.323,"body":"making a cohesive argument."},{"startTime":2798.603,"endTime":2801.243,"body":"So anyway, we're going to move on to"},{"startTime":2798.603,"endTime":2801.243,"body":"the next point in the accountability"},{"startTime":2801.243,"endTime":2805.383,"body":"category, he says, treat your"},{"startTime":2801.243,"endTime":2805.383,"body":"backlog as the baseline reality."},{"startTime":2805.423,"endTime":2807.593,"body":"I'm not quite sure what this even"},{"startTime":2805.423,"endTime":2807.593,"body":"means, but I'm going to keep reading."},{"startTime":2807.623,"endTime":2808.223,"body":"Let's read."},{"startTime":2808.253,"endTime":2810.313,"body":"Don't stress it and don't justify it."},{"startTime":2810.313,"endTime":2814.213,"body":"Just take an afternoon, put everything"},{"startTime":2810.313,"endTime":2814.213,"body":"in whatever order you choose."},{"startTime":2814.253,"endTime":2819.363,"body":"If stakeholders disagree, put the ball"},{"startTime":2814.253,"endTime":2819.363,"body":"in their court to provide compelling"},{"startTime":2819.363,"endTime":2824.853,"body":"reasons to change it so I guess"},{"startTime":2819.363,"endTime":2824.853,"body":"he's saying . Decisiveness creates"},{"startTime":2825.153,"endTime":2829.643,"body":"clarity  because you've taken the"},{"startTime":2825.153,"endTime":2829.643,"body":"authoritative step to decide what the"},{"startTime":2829.643,"endTime":2835.183,"body":"prioritization is Build clarity the"},{"startTime":2829.643,"endTime":2835.183,"body":"contention of prioritization is in and"},{"startTime":2835.203,"endTime":2837.263,"body":"of itself  Anathema to getting ahead."},{"startTime":2837.323,"endTime":2838.713,"body":"It's a very confusing claim."},{"startTime":2839.003,"endTime":2843.233,"body":"That is the claim, but also the fact"},{"startTime":2839.003,"endTime":2843.233,"body":"that who's to blame here, if you like"},{"startTime":2843.623,"endTime":2847.963,"body":"for lack of progress and getting ahead is"},{"startTime":2843.623,"endTime":2847.963,"body":"the customer because he's putting that in"},{"startTime":2847.963,"endTime":2850.383,"body":"the court from what I see here earlier."},{"startTime":2850.683,"endTime":2852.263,"body":"If you go back, this is it."},{"startTime":2852.303,"endTime":2856.113,"body":"The stakeholders disagree, put"},{"startTime":2852.303,"endTime":2856.113,"body":"the ball in their court to provide"},{"startTime":2856.113,"endTime":2857.793,"body":"compelling reasons to change it."},{"startTime":2857.983,"endTime":2860.183,"body":"So you say, well, this is the backlog."},{"startTime":2860.483,"endTime":2864.263,"body":"If you don't see it this"},{"startTime":2860.483,"endTime":2864.263,"body":"way, convince me otherwise."},{"startTime":2864.563,"endTime":2864.943,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2864.983,"endTime":2867.393,"body":"I don't even know where"},{"startTime":2864.983,"endTime":2867.393,"body":"to start with this one."},{"startTime":2867.783,"endTime":2871.353,"body":"So again, staying on the side that"},{"startTime":2867.783,"endTime":2871.353,"body":"I've been the whole time, I would say,"},{"startTime":2871.363,"endTime":2876.203,"body":"if you're one of these people, all"},{"startTime":2871.363,"endTime":2876.203,"body":"you're doing is trying to obfuscate,"},{"startTime":2876.283,"endTime":2879.033,"body":"You're just simply saying,"},{"startTime":2876.283,"endTime":2879.033,"body":"look, ignore the man behind the"},{"startTime":2879.033,"endTime":2880.703,"body":"curtain, This is our backlog."},{"startTime":2881.198,"endTime":2881.888,"body":"You like this?"},{"startTime":2881.918,"endTime":2882.278,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2882.578,"endTime":2883.488,"body":"Shuffle the cards again."},{"startTime":2883.788,"endTime":2884.368,"body":"You like this?"},{"startTime":2884.668,"endTime":2886.008,"body":"Why do you not like this?"},{"startTime":2886.048,"endTime":2886.958,"body":"This is what we're doing now."},{"startTime":2887.258,"endTime":2889.708,"body":"You weren't doing that a second"},{"startTime":2887.258,"endTime":2889.708,"body":"ago, but That's not the point."},{"startTime":2889.808,"endTime":2894.078,"body":"So you're blaming the customer"},{"startTime":2889.808,"endTime":2894.078,"body":"for your lack of progress."},{"startTime":2894.628,"endTime":2896.288,"body":"this is absolutely terrible."},{"startTime":2896.538,"endTime":2899.838,"body":"Again, if you're one of"},{"startTime":2896.538,"endTime":2899.838,"body":"these PMs, don't talk to me."},{"startTime":2899.908,"endTime":2904.048,"body":"So, we did Arguing Agile 201, which"},{"startTime":2899.908,"endTime":2904.048,"body":"was Stakeholder Communication."},{"startTime":2904.058,"endTime":2906.708,"body":"We did that podcast where you're"},{"startTime":2904.058,"endTime":2906.708,"body":"talking about breaking up the"},{"startTime":2906.718,"endTime":2909.378,"body":"people that you talk to as a product"},{"startTime":2906.718,"endTime":2909.378,"body":"manager, basically your audience."},{"startTime":2909.678,"endTime":2912.918,"body":"And you listen to the whole thing"},{"startTime":2909.678,"endTime":2912.918,"body":"because the output of that podcast was"},{"startTime":2912.918,"endTime":2916.148,"body":"very tactical you can write these notes"},{"startTime":2912.918,"endTime":2916.148,"body":"down, put them on the side of your"},{"startTime":2916.148,"endTime":2920.348,"body":"monitor and say, when I'm interfacing"},{"startTime":2916.148,"endTime":2920.348,"body":"with these people, I need to take this"},{"startTime":2920.428,"endTime":2921.828,"body":"outlook on interfacing with other people."},{"startTime":2922.058,"endTime":2924.608,"body":"Anyway, look at that"},{"startTime":2922.058,"endTime":2924.608,"body":"one for this category."},{"startTime":2924.618,"endTime":2926.388,"body":"If you're even a great"},{"startTime":2924.618,"endTime":2926.388,"body":"takeaway, regardless."},{"startTime":2926.788,"endTime":2929.728,"body":"I can't even bring myself to a"},{"startTime":2926.788,"endTime":2929.728,"body":"line when we're talking about now."},{"startTime":2929.728,"endTime":2933.398,"body":"I think  I'm not even going to bother"},{"startTime":2929.728,"endTime":2933.398,"body":"making a case because it sounds, this"},{"startTime":2933.568,"endTime":2937.108,"body":"sounds, this is as ludicrous as it sounds."},{"startTime":2937.108,"endTime":2937.578,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2937.628,"endTime":2937.938,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2938.408,"endTime":2938.568,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2938.568,"endTime":2940.038,"body":"So listen, listen to that."},{"startTime":2940.088,"endTime":2941.628,"body":"Listen to arguing agile."},{"startTime":2942.073,"endTime":2943.693,"body":"2, 2 0 1. Yeah."},{"startTime":2943.693,"endTime":2946.393,"body":"2 0 1. Mastering stakeholder"},{"startTime":2943.693,"endTime":2946.393,"body":"Communication and Management."},{"startTime":2946.393,"endTime":2947.293,"body":"That was arguing as well."},{"startTime":2947.293,"endTime":2953.133,"body":"2 0 1. Listen to that one and go forward"},{"startTime":2947.293,"endTime":2953.133,"body":"with that to say when you reprioritize"},{"startTime":2953.133,"endTime":2957.323,"body":"some item in your backlog or an epic,"},{"startTime":2953.133,"endTime":2957.323,"body":", that should be an indicator to blast out."},{"startTime":2957.753,"endTime":2962.153,"body":"To the crowd which was one of our"},{"startTime":2957.753,"endTime":2962.153,"body":"audiences in that podcast to blast"},{"startTime":2962.153,"endTime":2966.623,"body":"out like, Hey, I've reprioritized,"},{"startTime":2962.153,"endTime":2966.623,"body":"I have some reasoning because like"},{"startTime":2966.683,"endTime":2970.733,"body":"when you're, when you get to a  a"},{"startTime":2966.683,"endTime":2970.733,"body":"certain level of advancement in your"},{"startTime":2970.783,"endTime":2974.143,"body":"product management , leadership will"},{"startTime":2970.783,"endTime":2974.143,"body":"start asking questions like, Hey, how"},{"startTime":2974.143,"endTime":2976.573,"body":"come you prioritize this Over this,"},{"startTime":2976.653,"endTime":2977.803,"body":"Okay, this over that."},{"startTime":2977.833,"endTime":2979.543,"body":"And then you'll have to"},{"startTime":2977.833,"endTime":2979.543,"body":"answer those questions."},{"startTime":2980.013,"endTime":2982.563,"body":"But it's better to do that proactively."},{"startTime":2982.663,"endTime":2983.293,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2983.343,"endTime":2986.303,"body":"it's better to bring those"},{"startTime":2983.343,"endTime":2986.303,"body":"voices into the conversation when"},{"startTime":2986.303,"endTime":2987.643,"body":"you're deciding the priorities."},{"startTime":2987.943,"endTime":2988.553,"body":"for everyone else"},{"startTime":2988.603,"endTime":2992.403,"body":"You're kind of just communicating out like"},{"startTime":2988.603,"endTime":2992.403,"body":"hey, we decided this over this and because"},{"startTime":2992.403,"endTime":2998.033,"body":"of that this is our next step just like"},{"startTime":2992.403,"endTime":2998.033,"body":"a mass information blast type of outlook."},{"startTime":2998.263,"endTime":3002.548,"body":"Listen to that podcast  we were very"},{"startTime":2998.263,"endTime":3002.548,"body":"In the weeds tactical on that podcast."},{"startTime":3002.548,"endTime":3004.238,"body":"It wasn't high level strategic."},{"startTime":3004.518,"endTime":3005.708,"body":"It was in the weeds tactical."},{"startTime":3005.998,"endTime":3008.708,"body":"You can come up with a couple stickies,"},{"startTime":3005.998,"endTime":3008.708,"body":"put them on the side of your monitor,"},{"startTime":3008.808,"endTime":3010.348,"body":"help you through your work day."},{"startTime":3010.398,"endTime":3013.478,"body":"I'm just happy to win a category"},{"startTime":3010.398,"endTime":3013.478,"body":"at this point in the podcast."},{"startTime":3013.778,"endTime":3016.568,"body":"the next thing  before we move"},{"startTime":3013.778,"endTime":3016.568,"body":"to the end of this podcast."},{"startTime":3016.568,"endTime":3019.038,"body":"He says find quote resets."},{"startTime":3019.218,"endTime":3021.778,"body":"Eventually this attitude is"},{"startTime":3019.218,"endTime":3021.778,"body":"going to catch up to you."},{"startTime":3021.808,"endTime":3025.618,"body":"So yeah, of course, treating your"},{"startTime":3021.808,"endTime":3025.618,"body":"backlogs, the base reality, not owning"},{"startTime":3025.618,"endTime":3028.718,"body":"failure, all the things we've talked"},{"startTime":3025.618,"endTime":3028.718,"body":"about, it's going to catch up to you."},{"startTime":3028.878,"endTime":3031.158,"body":"We even started the podcast saying"},{"startTime":3028.878,"endTime":3031.158,"body":"it's going to catch up to you."},{"startTime":3031.278,"endTime":3033.648,"body":"the Deming thing of like,"},{"startTime":3031.278,"endTime":3033.648,"body":"you're going to get caught."},{"startTime":3033.758,"endTime":3034.078,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3034.528,"endTime":3037.778,"body":"if you move every 18 months, two"},{"startTime":3034.528,"endTime":3037.778,"body":"years, maybe you won't get caught."},{"startTime":3038.263,"endTime":3041.903,"body":"Because you'll move on before this"},{"startTime":3038.263,"endTime":3041.903,"body":"traffic jam you know what I mean,"},{"startTime":3041.903,"endTime":3044.793,"body":"He says eventually this attitude"},{"startTime":3041.903,"endTime":3044.793,"body":"is going to catch up with you find"},{"startTime":3044.823,"endTime":3049.483,"body":"opportunities to press Reset on all the"},{"startTime":3044.823,"endTime":3049.483,"body":"promises made in the future that you"},{"startTime":3049.483,"endTime":3054.793,"body":"spawn new leadership a changing boss"},{"startTime":3049.483,"endTime":3054.793,"body":"new technology He puts in quotes AI."},{"startTime":3055.003,"endTime":3060.693,"body":"I like it a new key hire or new promotion"},{"startTime":3055.003,"endTime":3060.693,"body":"These are moments that let you keep"},{"startTime":3060.983,"endTime":3065.063,"body":"up the charade, or as Captain Picard"},{"startTime":3060.983,"endTime":3065.063,"body":"would say, the charade, the charade."},{"startTime":3065.353,"endTime":3067.623,"body":"Yeah, , this is so typical, right?"},{"startTime":3067.623,"endTime":3072.603,"body":"We've seen this as well, where people,"},{"startTime":3067.623,"endTime":3072.603,"body":"whenever you've seen a person come up and"},{"startTime":3072.603,"endTime":3080.143,"body":"say, because of X. , instead of owning the"},{"startTime":3072.603,"endTime":3080.143,"body":"failure, right, or owning the, the lack"},{"startTime":3080.153,"endTime":3082.133,"body":"of progress, let's just be kind to them."},{"startTime":3082.413,"endTime":3086.203,"body":"You've seen this before, so"},{"startTime":3082.413,"endTime":3086.203,"body":"there are so many, and some of"},{"startTime":3086.203,"endTime":3089.893,"body":"these ones that he's highlighted"},{"startTime":3086.203,"endTime":3089.893,"body":"here, very valid, new leadership."},{"startTime":3090.193,"endTime":3093.843,"body":"Leadership changes every three"},{"startTime":3090.193,"endTime":3093.843,"body":"years on average, right, new boss."},{"startTime":3094.218,"endTime":3095.148,"body":"A new technology."},{"startTime":3095.188,"endTime":3096.968,"body":"There's always new technology."},{"startTime":3097.288,"endTime":3098.618,"body":"So you can always blame that."},{"startTime":3098.978,"endTime":3102.008,"body":"We're adapting to new"},{"startTime":3098.978,"endTime":3102.008,"body":"technology or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":3102.088,"endTime":3103.588,"body":"New key hire, right?"},{"startTime":3103.628,"endTime":3104.988,"body":"We have somebody coming in."},{"startTime":3105.208,"endTime":3110.738,"body":"They're changing the way we're doing"},{"startTime":3105.208,"endTime":3110.738,"body":"business, it's just finding excuses for"},{"startTime":3110.888,"endTime":3113.138,"body":"your lack of progress or your failures."},{"startTime":3113.488,"endTime":3116.138,"body":"But you're not presenting"},{"startTime":3113.488,"endTime":3116.138,"body":"them in that way."},{"startTime":3116.468,"endTime":3121.428,"body":"You're simply saying It's because of"},{"startTime":3116.468,"endTime":3121.428,"body":"those reasons that you're not making"},{"startTime":3121.428,"endTime":3123.318,"body":"the progress that you had hoped to make."},{"startTime":3123.618,"endTime":3125.668,"body":"It's an art how you communicate that out."},{"startTime":3126.038,"endTime":3129.428,"body":"If you're one of those PMs"},{"startTime":3126.038,"endTime":3129.428,"body":"that do that, good luck to you."},{"startTime":3129.598,"endTime":3131.328,"body":"I will call you out if I'm in the room."},{"startTime":3131.628,"endTime":3134.958,"body":"any effective member of leadership,"},{"startTime":3131.628,"endTime":3134.958,"body":"especially senior leadership,"},{"startTime":3135.258,"endTime":3136.348,"body":"Is going to call you out"},{"startTime":3136.628,"endTime":3139.888,"body":"By the time leadership catches"},{"startTime":3136.628,"endTime":3139.888,"body":"onto this and starts calling him"},{"startTime":3139.888,"endTime":3144.258,"body":"out for this kind of stuff, he's"},{"startTime":3139.888,"endTime":3144.258,"body":"already in the interview process."},{"startTime":3144.558,"endTime":3145.428,"body":"to move on."},{"startTime":3145.848,"endTime":3148.728,"body":"So  this one's too slimy for"},{"startTime":3145.848,"endTime":3148.728,"body":"me to give points because they"},{"startTime":3148.728,"endTime":3149.898,"body":"won't stick to the category."},{"startTime":3149.948,"endTime":3152.138,"body":"Let's move on to try to move"},{"startTime":3149.948,"endTime":3152.138,"body":"to the end of this podcast."},{"startTime":3152.198,"endTime":3156.428,"body":"He says I'm no longer losing my sanity"},{"startTime":3152.198,"endTime":3156.428,"body":"trying to make a product successful"},{"startTime":3156.438,"endTime":3160.928,"body":"or trying to single handedly build"},{"startTime":3156.438,"endTime":3160.928,"body":"a productive product culture."},{"startTime":3161.238,"endTime":3162.938,"body":"I've got an amazing work life balance."},{"startTime":3163.308,"endTime":3166.378,"body":"Professionally, I'm"},{"startTime":3163.308,"endTime":3166.378,"body":"completely dead inside."},{"startTime":3166.758,"endTime":3170.528,"body":"He says he's dead inside I think he's"},{"startTime":3166.758,"endTime":3170.528,"body":"just burnt out  this just sounds like"},{"startTime":3170.538,"endTime":3174.418,"body":"being burnt out and been working in"},{"startTime":3170.538,"endTime":3174.418,"body":"too many Pathological organizations."},{"startTime":3174.418,"endTime":3177.668,"body":"Okay, like I went through this I went"},{"startTime":3174.418,"endTime":3177.668,"body":"through this in my career as product"},{"startTime":3177.668,"endTime":3181.958,"body":"manager where I work with companies"},{"startTime":3177.668,"endTime":3181.958,"body":"and I Started realizing that in the"},{"startTime":3182.008,"endTime":3187.733,"body":"Startup stage I'm talking like sub"},{"startTime":3182.008,"endTime":3187.733,"body":"30 employees that's my sweet spot I'm"},{"startTime":3187.733,"endTime":3192.433,"body":"really invigorated by working with people"},{"startTime":3187.733,"endTime":3192.433,"body":"that are trying to crack a Problem not"},{"startTime":3192.433,"endTime":3196.863,"body":"like 20 problems or like hello Brian,"},{"startTime":3192.433,"endTime":3196.863,"body":"no matter how hard you work You're"},{"startTime":3196.863,"endTime":3198.563,"body":"always gonna be behind like that."},{"startTime":3198.763,"endTime":3203.863,"body":"Number one and number two avoiding"},{"startTime":3198.763,"endTime":3203.863,"body":"private equity being held by other"},{"startTime":3203.863,"endTime":3207.753,"body":"companies or being a subcompany of a"},{"startTime":3203.863,"endTime":3207.753,"body":"larger company or whatever, they're"},{"startTime":3207.753,"endTime":3210.043,"body":"just gonna crush you with work."},{"startTime":3210.503,"endTime":3210.823,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3210.883,"endTime":3213.643,"body":"Because they, they have"},{"startTime":3210.883,"endTime":3213.643,"body":"this like more with less."},{"startTime":3213.943,"endTime":3214.653,"body":"What was the nineties?"},{"startTime":3214.673,"endTime":3217.353,"body":"What was the saying in the nineties"},{"startTime":3214.673,"endTime":3217.353,"body":"of like do more with less, more"},{"startTime":3217.353,"endTime":3218.383,"body":"with, yeah, do more with less."},{"startTime":3218.383,"endTime":3220.793,"body":"we don't talk about that anymore"},{"startTime":3218.383,"endTime":3220.793,"body":"in the modern era,  that was"},{"startTime":3220.793,"endTime":3223.213,"body":"a thing in the nineties and"},{"startTime":3220.793,"endTime":3223.213,"body":"early 2000s, do more with less."},{"startTime":3223.603,"endTime":3224.543,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"startTime":3224.543,"endTime":3226.733,"body":"Like if you're being"},{"startTime":3224.543,"endTime":3226.733,"body":"crushed with that sure."},{"startTime":3227.033,"endTime":3230.833,"body":"Like if you're, if you're going"},{"startTime":3227.033,"endTime":3230.833,"body":"to say that you're just burnt out"},{"startTime":3231.193,"endTime":3234.183,"body":"because you feel like you can't make"},{"startTime":3231.193,"endTime":3234.183,"body":"a difference because you keep bouncing"},{"startTime":3234.183,"endTime":3235.903,"body":"back and forth you gotta get over that."},{"startTime":3236.193,"endTime":3239.363,"body":"you gotta heal yourself so"},{"startTime":3236.193,"endTime":3239.363,"body":"you can be a better partner."},{"startTime":3239.693,"endTime":3243.093,"body":"To leadership and your development"},{"startTime":3239.693,"endTime":3243.093,"body":"teams and your peers, if you have"},{"startTime":3243.093,"endTime":3247.413,"body":"other product managers, This is"},{"startTime":3243.093,"endTime":3247.413,"body":"so painful to read this article."},{"startTime":3247.413,"endTime":3250.913,"body":"It's  painful for people that are going"},{"startTime":3247.413,"endTime":3250.913,"body":"through this to experience, right?"},{"startTime":3251.223,"endTime":3252.813,"body":"Yeah, it really is."},{"startTime":3252.903,"endTime":3255.273,"body":"if you're in an organization"},{"startTime":3252.903,"endTime":3255.273,"body":"where you don't have support,"},{"startTime":3255.613,"endTime":3257.223,"body":"it can be very difficult, right?"},{"startTime":3257.223,"endTime":3257.473,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3257.533,"endTime":3261.583,"body":"So again, going back to some of the"},{"startTime":3257.533,"endTime":3261.583,"body":"sage advice we give on this podcast"},{"startTime":3261.603,"endTime":3266.353,"body":", keep that resume updated, but if"},{"startTime":3261.603,"endTime":3266.353,"body":"you are suffering because of this,"},{"startTime":3266.593,"endTime":3268.333,"body":"You got to make a decision, right?"},{"startTime":3268.783,"endTime":3269.913,"body":"Life is too short."},{"startTime":3270.233,"endTime":3274.323,"body":"You don't want to do this for any"},{"startTime":3270.233,"endTime":3274.323,"body":"period of time that , is going to keep"},{"startTime":3274.333,"endTime":3276.393,"body":"carving away at your inner psyche."},{"startTime":3276.833,"endTime":3278.523,"body":"Decide if you want to stay in there."},{"startTime":3278.533,"endTime":3279.833,"body":"Is it worth salvageable?"},{"startTime":3279.833,"endTime":3281.273,"body":"Talk to somebody, right?"},{"startTime":3281.273,"endTime":3285.293,"body":"So this is where those relationships"},{"startTime":3281.273,"endTime":3285.293,"body":"with your leadership come into play."},{"startTime":3285.643,"endTime":3289.123,"body":"Talk to somebody in leadership and"},{"startTime":3285.643,"endTime":3289.123,"body":"say, look, this is how I feel, right?"},{"startTime":3289.423,"endTime":3291.333,"body":"And go in there with some suggestions."},{"startTime":3291.333,"endTime":3292.373,"body":"Don't just go in there."},{"startTime":3292.793,"endTime":3295.433,"body":"Complaining but going there"},{"startTime":3292.793,"endTime":3295.433,"body":"with a couple of suggestions."},{"startTime":3295.633,"endTime":3296.463,"body":"Here's how I feel."},{"startTime":3296.463,"endTime":3301.303,"body":"Here's how I think things could be better"},{"startTime":3296.463,"endTime":3301.303,"body":", and see if you get support if you don't"},{"startTime":3301.443,"endTime":3303.993,"body":"then by all means be ready to move on."},{"startTime":3304.343,"endTime":3306.713,"body":"Because like I said,"},{"startTime":3304.343,"endTime":3306.713,"body":"it's just not worth it."},{"startTime":3306.763,"endTime":3307.903,"body":"It's not worth it for you."},{"startTime":3307.903,"endTime":3309.323,"body":"It's not worth it for your family."},{"startTime":3309.663,"endTime":3313.953,"body":"I wonder how connected to his local"},{"startTime":3309.663,"endTime":3313.953,"body":"community of product management."},{"startTime":3314.253,"endTime":3315.803,"body":"I wonder how connected he is."},{"startTime":3315.853,"endTime":3316.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3316.343,"endTime":3316.713,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3316.923,"endTime":3320.413,"body":"Cause like we both  go to a lot"},{"startTime":3316.923,"endTime":3320.413,"body":"of community events like product"},{"startTime":3320.413,"endTime":3323.823,"body":"management and otherwise like developer"},{"startTime":3320.413,"endTime":3323.823,"body":"events, product management events,"},{"startTime":3323.823,"endTime":3325.003,"body":"agile events, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3325.303,"endTime":3327.943,"body":"And I wonder how connected he is"},{"startTime":3325.303,"endTime":3327.943,"body":"because I would go out on a limb"},{"startTime":3327.943,"endTime":3331.803,"body":"to say, I doubt he's connected"},{"startTime":3327.943,"endTime":3331.803,"body":"to any of those markets at all."},{"startTime":3332.253,"endTime":3335.833,"body":"Because there are people in those"},{"startTime":3332.253,"endTime":3335.833,"body":"markets that will say Hey, Brian,"},{"startTime":3335.833,"endTime":3337.323,"body":"you sound kind of burnt out."},{"startTime":3337.393,"endTime":3339.643,"body":", why are you taking two jobs?"},{"startTime":3339.943,"endTime":3343.963,"body":"Doing product management when you don't"},{"startTime":3339.943,"endTime":3343.963,"body":"even really get enjoyment out of one what"},{"startTime":3343.963,"endTime":3345.553,"body":"do you really enjoy about your workplace?"},{"startTime":3345.813,"endTime":3345.973,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3345.973,"endTime":3349.603,"body":"And also does this say something"},{"startTime":3345.973,"endTime":3349.603,"body":"about hiring practices too?"},{"startTime":3349.603,"endTime":3353.693,"body":"Because people hire this individual and"},{"startTime":3349.603,"endTime":3353.693,"body":"don't get any kind of like, I was going"},{"startTime":3353.693,"endTime":3355.123,"body":"to say smell, that's not professional."},{"startTime":3355.253,"endTime":3356.953,"body":"The professional version of smell."},{"startTime":3357.133,"endTime":3360.603,"body":"They don't get any detection at all."},{"startTime":3360.613,"endTime":3363.063,"body":"That this is a completely burnt out."},{"startTime":3363.528,"endTime":3367.448,"body":"Individual  you've got to be completely"},{"startTime":3363.528,"endTime":3367.448,"body":"burnt out to write an article like this."},{"startTime":3367.498,"endTime":3371.418,"body":"I'm talking like hollowed to"},{"startTime":3367.498,"endTime":3371.418,"body":"the core like toast on three"},{"startTime":3371.428,"endTime":3373.378,"body":"settings on my toaster burnt out."},{"startTime":3373.478,"endTime":3377.238,"body":"No, I think you're right that people"},{"startTime":3373.478,"endTime":3377.238,"body":"in this situation probably are not"},{"startTime":3377.268,"endTime":3380.918,"body":"partaking in community events and"},{"startTime":3377.268,"endTime":3380.918,"body":"connecting with people that can"},{"startTime":3380.968,"endTime":3382.848,"body":"help them, So, yeah, that's one."},{"startTime":3382.898,"endTime":3387.448,"body":"as far as to your point about how do"},{"startTime":3382.898,"endTime":3387.448,"body":"you get multiple engagements like this?"},{"startTime":3387.848,"endTime":3389.378,"body":"Maybe they interview well, right?"},{"startTime":3389.628,"endTime":3391.838,"body":"Some people do interview very, very well."},{"startTime":3392.088,"endTime":3393.278,"body":"So, you can't tell."},{"startTime":3393.288,"endTime":3396.988,"body":". There's no sniff test, Early"},{"startTime":3393.288,"endTime":3396.988,"body":"signs will indicate how things"},{"startTime":3396.988,"endTime":3400.998,"body":"are going, and if an individual is"},{"startTime":3396.988,"endTime":3400.998,"body":"burnt out, you'll be able to tell."},{"startTime":3401.298,"endTime":3402.728,"body":", you've gotta be looking for it,"},{"startTime":3402.728,"endTime":3405.878,"body":"This was a wild one for me to be"},{"startTime":3402.728,"endTime":3405.878,"body":"honest, because the signs are all"},{"startTime":3405.878,"endTime":3410.438,"body":"there in the first . paragraph of the"},{"startTime":3405.878,"endTime":3410.438,"body":"article they're burnt out, you know?"},{"startTime":3410.438,"endTime":3412.958,"body":"And again, we did  a podcast on burnout."},{"startTime":3413.308,"endTime":3414.058,"body":"It was early."},{"startTime":3414.358,"endTime":3414.988,"body":"I remember."},{"startTime":3415.288,"endTime":3417.028,"body":"87. Oh yeah, we didn't Seven."},{"startTime":3417.028,"endTime":3417.508,"body":"It was early."},{"startTime":3417.508,"endTime":3418.168,"body":"Arguing Agile."},{"startTime":3418.378,"endTime":3421.403,"body":"87. I mean, it was very early for us."},{"startTime":3421.403,"endTime":3426.873,"body":", we did a . 41 minute and four second"},{"startTime":3421.403,"endTime":3426.873,"body":"podcast on burnt out product managers."},{"startTime":3427.223,"endTime":3430.553,"body":"And like the nice thing here is"},{"startTime":3427.223,"endTime":3430.553,"body":"you can see the chapter headers"},{"startTime":3430.643,"endTime":3432.033,"body":"of Hey, you're building there."},{"startTime":3432.253,"endTime":3434.723,"body":"Maybe you're burnt out because"},{"startTime":3432.253,"endTime":3434.723,"body":"you feel the work is meaningless."},{"startTime":3434.723,"endTime":3437.253,"body":"Maybe you're burnt out because"},{"startTime":3434.723,"endTime":3437.253,"body":"you're in a blame game culture."},{"startTime":3437.513,"endTime":3438.693,"body":"Maybe you're burnt out because."},{"startTime":3439.018,"endTime":3441.948,"body":"You know, you don't have a strategy"},{"startTime":3439.018,"endTime":3441.948,"body":"in your cultures eating it for lunch"},{"startTime":3441.948,"endTime":3444.928,"body":"or whatever, like there's, there's,"},{"startTime":3441.948,"endTime":3444.928,"body":"there are quite a few reasons why"},{"startTime":3444.928,"endTime":3448.778,"body":"you're being burnt out, but this"},{"startTime":3444.928,"endTime":3448.778,"body":"stuff sabotages, it's like a, Mobius"},{"startTime":3448.778,"endTime":3452.838,"body":"loop of sabotaging you and making you"},{"startTime":3448.778,"endTime":3452.838,"body":"more burnt out and, less effective."},{"startTime":3452.838,"endTime":3455.328,"body":"Like the community helps you."},{"startTime":3455.538,"endTime":3456.828,"body":"It absolutely does."},{"startTime":3457.198,"endTime":3459.888,"body":"Listen, it's just a low"},{"startTime":3457.198,"endTime":3459.888,"body":"barrier to entry, right?"},{"startTime":3460.168,"endTime":3462.238,"body":"Go out and engage in your community."},{"startTime":3462.238,"endTime":3462.818,"body":"It's free."},{"startTime":3462.818,"endTime":3463.448,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3463.728,"endTime":3467.178,"body":"And you'll learn as much as"},{"startTime":3463.728,"endTime":3467.178,"body":"you're teaching others to, right?"},{"startTime":3467.178,"endTime":3470.458,"body":"So I think it's a great, great"},{"startTime":3467.178,"endTime":3470.458,"body":"idea for everybody to do this."},{"startTime":3470.718,"endTime":3470.968,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3470.968,"endTime":3475.538,"body":"And if you're burnt out, one way to"},{"startTime":3470.968,"endTime":3475.538,"body":"counteract that would be Talk to your"},{"startTime":3475.668,"endTime":3480.148,"body":"community, talk to the people trying to"},{"startTime":3475.668,"endTime":3480.148,"body":"break into the field, and then figure"},{"startTime":3480.148,"endTime":3481.918,"body":"out a way to bring them up to speed."},{"startTime":3482.268,"endTime":3486.038,"body":"Because,   if nothing else helps,"},{"startTime":3482.268,"endTime":3486.038,"body":"their enthusiasm will help."},{"startTime":3486.338,"endTime":3489.688,"body":"Like, reinvigorate whatever was it that"},{"startTime":3486.338,"endTime":3489.688,"body":"got you into the field in the first place."},{"startTime":3489.688,"endTime":3490.688,"body":"That's right, exactly."},{"startTime":3490.698,"endTime":3491.542,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3491.883,"endTime":3495.303,"body":"Otherwise stop posting reddit it hurts"},{"startTime":3491.883,"endTime":3495.303,"body":"my brain, I'm pretty sure Om got 10"},{"startTime":3495.363,"endTime":3498.753,"body":"bajillion dinosaur points on this"},{"startTime":3495.363,"endTime":3498.753,"body":"one, and I got hit with a meteor."},{"startTime":3498.863,"endTime":3500.023,"body":"You got quite a few as well."},{"startTime":3500.023,"endTime":3501.723,"body":"Both of us are gonna cash out our points."},{"startTime":3502.023,"endTime":3504.773,"body":"So I'm going to cash out and bro"},{"startTime":3502.023,"endTime":3504.773,"body":"down wrap us up while I do that."},{"startTime":3504.783,"endTime":3505.193,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3505.193,"endTime":3508.653,"body":"Well, listen, thank you for staying"},{"startTime":3505.193,"endTime":3508.653,"body":"with us for this amazing topic that"},{"startTime":3508.693,"endTime":3510.113,"body":"we really didn't plan for at all."},{"startTime":3510.413,"endTime":3513.683,"body":"Let us know down below in the"},{"startTime":3510.413,"endTime":3513.683,"body":"comments, if there's anything"},{"startTime":3513.683,"endTime":3514.803,"body":"you'd like us to talk about!"}]}