{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.0,"body":"who do you think should be innovating"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.0,"body":"and moving us forward into the future?"},{"startTime":3.3,"endTime":3.9,"body":"Innovation?"},{"startTime":3.9,"endTime":4.979,"body":"Leave it to somebody else."},{"startTime":5.069,"endTime":6.45,"body":"Oh, we don't have time for that."},{"startTime":6.51,"endTime":7.56,"body":"I didn't expect you to say that."},{"startTime":11.593,"endTime":15.373,"body":"We're talking today about R\u0026D"},{"startTime":11.593,"endTime":15.373,"body":"type of work, new, new development"},{"startTime":15.373,"endTime":16.483,"body":"features, breaking into new markets."},{"startTime":16.543,"endTime":18.793,"body":"Some people call it zero to one."},{"startTime":19.133,"endTime":24.203,"body":"Yeah, some people believe in letting"},{"startTime":19.133,"endTime":24.203,"body":"someone else do all of that innovation,"},{"startTime":24.503,"endTime":30.252,"body":"and they believe that doing this will"},{"startTime":24.503,"endTime":30.252,"body":"free them up to do other things, or"},{"startTime":30.282,"endTime":36.042,"body":"maybe they can rely on specialist"},{"startTime":30.282,"endTime":36.042,"body":"expertise that these other people bring"},{"startTime":36.342,"endTime":38.892,"body":"to inject innovation into their teams."},{"startTime":39.202,"endTime":43.147,"body":"we probably could find some benefit"},{"startTime":39.202,"endTime":43.147,"body":"outta both sides of the equation again,"},{"startTime":43.147,"endTime":44.858,"body":"I believe in you build it, you own it."},{"startTime":45.218,"endTime":47.828,"body":"So why would you spend a bunch of"},{"startTime":45.218,"endTime":47.828,"body":"time with your developers and your"},{"startTime":47.828,"endTime":51.578,"body":"development team, learning the customers"},{"startTime":47.828,"endTime":51.578,"body":"and the customer pain points, and then"},{"startTime":51.637,"endTime":54.367,"body":"say, yeah, but all the new features"},{"startTime":51.637,"endTime":54.367,"body":"are gonna be built by this other team."},{"startTime":54.443,"endTime":56.003,"body":"Yeah, that doesn't seem right to me."},{"startTime":56.303,"endTime":60.293,"body":"just the cognitive dissonance of trying"},{"startTime":56.303,"endTime":60.293,"body":"to square that statement in my head."},{"startTime":60.303,"endTime":63.813,"body":"There seems to be a gap there, but it"},{"startTime":60.303,"endTime":63.813,"body":"might be contextual if we're arguing"},{"startTime":63.813,"endTime":69.783,"body":"the other side Maybe innovation into"},{"startTime":63.813,"endTime":69.783,"body":"newer things, new technologies perhaps."},{"startTime":69.783,"endTime":72.843,"body":"Requires skill sets that"},{"startTime":69.783,"endTime":72.843,"body":"we don't possess currently."},{"startTime":73.003,"endTime":78.073,"body":"So we're hiring that, bringing other"},{"startTime":73.003,"endTime":78.073,"body":"people in to do this work for us, the"},{"startTime":78.073,"endTime":80.113,"body":"ideation, the innovation, and so forth."},{"startTime":80.413,"endTime":81.673,"body":"I do agree there are pros and cons."},{"startTime":82.043,"endTime":86.233,"body":"let's start with that category., in"},{"startTime":82.043,"endTime":86.233,"body":"order to innovate, we have product teams,"},{"startTime":86.283,"endTime":88.233,"body":"maintaining our current products, right?"},{"startTime":88.473,"endTime":93.983,"body":"And we want to bring in people"},{"startTime":88.473,"endTime":93.983,"body":"with very specialized skillset."},{"startTime":94.283,"endTime":97.343,"body":"To take our current products"},{"startTime":94.283,"endTime":97.343,"body":"or, or pieces of our current"},{"startTime":97.343,"endTime":98.603,"body":"products and launch us ahead."},{"startTime":98.703,"endTime":102.273,"body":"the immediate one everyone would"},{"startTime":98.703,"endTime":102.273,"body":"think of here is ai, But also data"},{"startTime":102.273,"endTime":105.483,"body":"science, Like mathematical algorithms"},{"startTime":102.273,"endTime":105.483,"body":"and stuff like that to work inside"},{"startTime":105.483,"endTime":109.153,"body":"of our data sets, how we can change"},{"startTime":105.483,"endTime":109.153,"body":"things to make a little more sense."},{"startTime":109.223,"endTime":110.393,"body":"Out of the data that we have."},{"startTime":110.583,"endTime":111.483,"body":"that's a good one here."},{"startTime":111.733,"endTime":115.183,"body":"Back when big data was the meaningless"},{"startTime":111.733,"endTime":115.183,"body":"term that everyone used to used data."},{"startTime":115.183,"endTime":115.363,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":115.363,"endTime":115.753,"body":"Hadoop."},{"startTime":115.843,"endTime":119.503,"body":"Like I, I worked on a, Hey, hey,"},{"startTime":115.843,"endTime":119.503,"body":"you keep your Hadoop to yourself."},{"startTime":119.503,"endTime":119.983,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":120.233,"endTime":123.463,"body":"I worked on a big data platform where they"},{"startTime":120.233,"endTime":123.463,"body":"were trying to basically build a catalog"},{"startTime":123.463,"endTime":126.483,"body":"when you went to build dashboards and"},{"startTime":123.463,"endTime":126.483,"body":"stuff, all the big data is in the catalog."},{"startTime":126.483,"endTime":128.803,"body":"You just grabbed the fields"},{"startTime":126.483,"endTime":128.803,"body":"from the catalog that you want."},{"startTime":128.803,"endTime":129.853,"body":"And that was a dream."},{"startTime":129.908,"endTime":131.888,"body":"They never did that, of"},{"startTime":129.908,"endTime":131.888,"body":"course, but that was a dream."},{"startTime":132.237,"endTime":135.778,"body":"And, we certainly had like people"},{"startTime":132.237,"endTime":135.778,"body":"on the team that said like, whoa,"},{"startTime":135.778,"endTime":137.218,"body":"they have a very special skillset."},{"startTime":137.248,"endTime":138.987,"body":"No one else has a, that skillset."},{"startTime":138.987,"endTime":143.158,"body":"So we need to have them be, we needed"},{"startTime":138.987,"endTime":143.158,"body":"to have them do all their work up front"},{"startTime":143.507,"endTime":143.688,"body":"."},{"startTime":143.507,"endTime":143.688,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":143.688,"endTime":147.947,"body":"That, that, I mean, that was, that"},{"startTime":143.688,"endTime":147.947,"body":"point was used in that instance."},{"startTime":148.248,"endTime":150.918,"body":"So I like, I'm pitching it"},{"startTime":148.248,"endTime":150.918,"body":"as I'm about to defend it."},{"startTime":151.218,"endTime":154.038,"body":"But, but also I lived through"},{"startTime":151.218,"endTime":154.038,"body":"it, so it was a train wreck."},{"startTime":154.108,"endTime":155.878,"body":"it created that dependency, right?"},{"startTime":155.928,"endTime":158.358,"body":"you couldn't move ahead"},{"startTime":155.928,"endTime":158.358,"body":"unless your dependency was"},{"startTime":158.358,"endTime":160.638,"body":"met as a kind of predecessor."},{"startTime":160.938,"endTime":165.048,"body":"So emerging technologies that you don't"},{"startTime":160.938,"endTime":165.048,"body":"have skills for, that's a case, right?"},{"startTime":165.168,"endTime":165.258,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":165.288,"endTime":169.968,"body":"ideally you would want your"},{"startTime":165.288,"endTime":169.968,"body":"team skilled up in that, right?"},{"startTime":169.968,"endTime":170.238,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":170.238,"endTime":172.668,"body":"I mean, that was the first thing I"},{"startTime":170.238,"endTime":172.668,"body":"thought of is like, well, I need to"},{"startTime":172.668,"endTime":174.328,"body":"bring in data sciences to do whatever."},{"startTime":174.328,"endTime":179.278,"body":"Like, how is that any different from"},{"startTime":174.328,"endTime":179.278,"body":"well, my team has to go out and pound"},{"startTime":179.278,"endTime":182.808,"body":"the pavement and bring in leads and"},{"startTime":179.278,"endTime":182.808,"body":"get sales across the finish line."},{"startTime":183.108,"endTime":187.698,"body":"So can I get a sales person to sit with"},{"startTime":183.108,"endTime":187.698,"body":"my team and bring my team in when the"},{"startTime":187.698,"endTime":191.238,"body":"account management calls are happening or"},{"startTime":187.698,"endTime":191.238,"body":"when the new sales demos are happening."},{"startTime":191.238,"endTime":192.018,"body":"Like, can you bring."},{"startTime":192.318,"endTime":196.728,"body":"My team members in to those demos"},{"startTime":192.318,"endTime":196.728,"body":"so we actually can pitch and talk"},{"startTime":196.728,"endTime":200.798,"body":"about our product that you're trying"},{"startTime":196.728,"endTime":200.798,"body":"to sell for us, the typical sales"},{"startTime":200.798,"endTime":202.268,"body":"organization is completely divorced."},{"startTime":202.448,"endTime":202.688,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":202.868,"endTime":206.588,"body":"From like, that's not, that's"},{"startTime":202.868,"endTime":206.588,"body":"not like the, the more effective"},{"startTime":206.588,"endTime":208.508,"body":"ones where you are going."},{"startTime":208.868,"endTime":210.128,"body":"It's funny, it's not even in our notes."},{"startTime":210.158,"endTime":212.198,"body":"I'm sure it's not in our notes"},{"startTime":210.158,"endTime":212.198,"body":"the same thing we're talking about"},{"startTime":212.198,"endTime":215.648,"body":"now, we're talking about adding"},{"startTime":212.198,"endTime":215.648,"body":"specialist skill sets to your team."},{"startTime":215.748,"endTime":220.648,"body":"nobody on the team knows Kubernetes or"},{"startTime":215.748,"endTime":220.648,"body":"Docker deployments Nobody knows how to"},{"startTime":220.648,"endTime":222.958,"body":"deploy via whatever, GitHub actions."},{"startTime":223.008,"endTime":223.788,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":224.268,"endTime":226.908,"body":"Then you break somebody off for a"},{"startTime":224.268,"endTime":226.908,"body":"sprint and they learn how to do it,"},{"startTime":226.958,"endTime":230.378,"body":"now we know how to do it  this is an"},{"startTime":226.958,"endTime":230.378,"body":"odd arguing point of like, we gotta"},{"startTime":230.378,"endTime":234.938,"body":"go out and hire someone specific, this"},{"startTime":230.378,"endTime":234.938,"body":"specialist to do this specialist thing."},{"startTime":235.148,"endTime":240.098,"body":"Because from my perspective, like"},{"startTime":235.148,"endTime":240.098,"body":"corporate finance, HR for hiring people,"},{"startTime":240.098,"endTime":243.218,"body":"recruiting and hiring people, posting"},{"startTime":240.098,"endTime":243.218,"body":"jobs, marketing, when it's time to hit"},{"startTime":243.218,"endTime":247.178,"body":"the street with marketing materials"},{"startTime":243.218,"endTime":247.178,"body":"we have a dozen in-house specialties"},{"startTime":247.628,"endTime":250.868,"body":"and we somehow mesh those and make"},{"startTime":247.628,"endTime":250.868,"body":"those part of our normal workday."},{"startTime":250.918,"endTime":252.118,"body":"How is this any different?"},{"startTime":252.308,"endTime":256.368,"body":"the only argument against that would"},{"startTime":252.308,"endTime":256.368,"body":"be that, team members can't be left"},{"startTime":256.368,"endTime":262.077,"body":"alone for a sprint to learn this stuff"},{"startTime":256.368,"endTime":262.077,"body":"maybe you need to send them to a class."},{"startTime":262.108,"endTime":263.948,"body":"or bring someone in to train you."},{"startTime":263.977,"endTime":265.297,"body":"But that's , very short-lived."},{"startTime":265.347,"endTime":268.637,"body":". Once they learn this stuff, they"},{"startTime":265.347,"endTime":268.637,"body":"practice it on their own time, But"},{"startTime":268.637,"endTime":273.487,"body":"to actually have someone do it on a"},{"startTime":268.637,"endTime":273.487,"body":"sustainable level, that is definitely"},{"startTime":273.487,"endTime":275.047,"body":"an argument I cannot get behind."},{"startTime":275.347,"endTime":279.367,"body":"I mean, look, , let's say you"},{"startTime":275.347,"endTime":279.367,"body":"are a founder at a tech startup"},{"startTime":279.367,"endTime":284.017,"body":"or any startup,  maybe you pay a"},{"startTime":279.367,"endTime":284.017,"body":"product coach to come in every week"},{"startTime":284.137,"endTime":287.497,"body":"Spend half a day to help you get"},{"startTime":284.137,"endTime":287.497,"body":"your roadmaps ready stand in front of"},{"startTime":287.497,"endTime":291.267,"body":"customers, double check that what you're"},{"startTime":287.497,"endTime":291.267,"body":"doing with like MVPs to make sure you're"},{"startTime":291.267,"endTime":293.037,"body":"not building too much, not wasting money."},{"startTime":293.037,"endTime":295.177,"body":"Like just paying a consultant"},{"startTime":293.037,"endTime":295.177,"body":"is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":295.177,"endTime":295.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":295.297,"endTime":296.767,"body":"But that's not innovation."},{"startTime":296.767,"endTime":300.037,"body":"That's simply getting the help"},{"startTime":296.767,"endTime":300.037,"body":"you need in your practices, right?"},{"startTime":300.037,"endTime":300.277,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":300.277,"endTime":304.057,"body":"But you apply that technique of"},{"startTime":300.277,"endTime":304.057,"body":"like, I'm hiring a product coach."},{"startTime":304.057,"endTime":307.867,"body":"'cause I know I'm not great at product"},{"startTime":304.057,"endTime":307.867,"body":"to this other technology of oh, I"},{"startTime":307.867,"endTime":312.127,"body":"think we should have AI agents at"},{"startTime":307.867,"endTime":312.127,"body":"the heart of all of our software now."},{"startTime":312.177,"endTime":315.267,"body":"maybe we need to get somebody in"},{"startTime":312.177,"endTime":315.267,"body":"who knows a lot about AI agents and"},{"startTime":315.267,"endTime":319.897,"body":"then embed them with my team for the"},{"startTime":315.267,"endTime":319.897,"body":"next four sprints they and my team"},{"startTime":319.957,"endTime":323.007,"body":"together kind of cross-pollinate the"},{"startTime":319.957,"endTime":323.007,"body":"skill maybe they need to stay around"},{"startTime":323.007,"endTime":324.387,"body":"longer than that six months, whatever."},{"startTime":324.387,"endTime":325.132,"body":"It doesn't matter, right?"},{"startTime":325.182,"endTime":327.522,"body":"It doesn't matter what skill it is"},{"startTime":325.182,"endTime":327.522,"body":"and what timeframe we're talking"},{"startTime":327.522,"endTime":329.712,"body":"about, the structure is the same."},{"startTime":329.937,"endTime":333.667,"body":"you have found a critical skill"},{"startTime":329.937,"endTime":333.667,"body":"that your team has not had before."},{"startTime":334.027,"endTime":336.667,"body":"You need to add it to your team somehow."},{"startTime":336.967,"endTime":338.617,"body":"So make that process happen."},{"startTime":338.617,"endTime":343.177,"body":"Don't say, my team doesn't have"},{"startTime":338.617,"endTime":343.177,"body":"this skill, so I'm going to take"},{"startTime":343.177,"endTime":346.327,"body":"this thing that I need and I'm"},{"startTime":343.177,"endTime":346.327,"body":"gonna have the adults create it."},{"startTime":346.357,"endTime":347.737,"body":"And then I'm gonna give"},{"startTime":346.357,"endTime":347.737,"body":"it back to you kids."},{"startTime":347.767,"endTime":350.497,"body":"To play it back, what I'm"},{"startTime":347.767,"endTime":350.497,"body":"hearing is you don't outsource"},{"startTime":350.497,"endTime":352.147,"body":"that innovation completely."},{"startTime":352.427,"endTime":358.503,"body":"You enable your teams over time to learn"},{"startTime":352.427,"endTime":358.503,"body":"those skills so that when you outsource,"},{"startTime":358.503,"endTime":362.582,"body":"what happens is when those people go away,"},{"startTime":358.503,"endTime":362.582,"body":"whether it's a company or individuals,"},{"startTime":362.582,"endTime":364.142,"body":", they take the knowledge with them."},{"startTime":364.243,"endTime":367.993,"body":"that leaves a void in your team that"},{"startTime":364.243,"endTime":367.993,"body":"at that point you're scrambling you"},{"startTime":367.993,"endTime":369.943,"body":"may have your product out in the wild."},{"startTime":369.993,"endTime":371.312,"body":"you have paying customers."},{"startTime":371.522,"endTime":373.202,"body":"You cannot afford to not have that."},{"startTime":373.562,"endTime":374.192,"body":"In your team."},{"startTime":374.292,"endTime":377.882,"body":"So don't outsource it on any"},{"startTime":374.292,"endTime":377.882,"body":"kind of sustainable level,"},{"startTime":377.882,"endTime":379.172,"body":"get your teams to learn it."},{"startTime":379.612,"endTime":384.012,"body":"They can come in, work with you and"},{"startTime":379.612,"endTime":384.012,"body":"maybe explicitly have some of those"},{"startTime":384.012,"endTime":388.292,"body":"knowledge sharing sessions so that"},{"startTime":384.012,"endTime":388.292,"body":"your team can be enabled and learn."},{"startTime":388.642,"endTime":391.583,"body":"So I think, both of us , with the,"},{"startTime":388.642,"endTime":391.583,"body":"Hey, we have to have specialist"},{"startTime":391.613,"endTime":395.842,"body":"knowledge and bring them into,"},{"startTime":391.613,"endTime":395.842,"body":"accelerate the integration of specialist"},{"startTime":395.842,"endTime":398.362,"body":"technologies into our products."},{"startTime":398.662,"endTime":398.932,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":399.232,"endTime":401.722,"body":"So you may need to"},{"startTime":399.232,"endTime":401.722,"body":"bring in special talent."},{"startTime":401.722,"endTime":404.423,"body":"So I'm gonna award 10 points"},{"startTime":401.722,"endTime":404.423,"body":"for that on this side."},{"startTime":404.723,"endTime":408.083,"body":"But also we both sort of naturally"},{"startTime":404.723,"endTime":408.083,"body":"gravitated to the other side of"},{"startTime":408.083,"endTime":410.603,"body":"like, yeah, you should bring in"},{"startTime":408.083,"endTime":410.603,"body":"knowledge, but also like you're"},{"startTime":410.603,"endTime":412.928,"body":"bringing back into the team that has"},{"startTime":410.603,"endTime":412.928,"body":"to maintain and build this stuff."},{"startTime":412.928,"endTime":413.208,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":413.208,"endTime":413.968,"body":"Enable your team."},{"startTime":414.018,"endTime":415.998,"body":"why wouldn't you enable your"},{"startTime":414.018,"endTime":415.998,"body":"team in the first place?"},{"startTime":416.178,"endTime":417.708,"body":"You don't need a"},{"startTime":416.178,"endTime":417.708,"body":"different team to do this."},{"startTime":417.768,"endTime":418.938,"body":"It's just your team."},{"startTime":418.998,"endTime":419.358,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":419.488,"endTime":422.368,"body":"So a thousand points for against jackpot."},{"startTime":422.368,"endTime":422.638,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":422.638,"endTime":422.938,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":423.238,"endTime":426.408,"body":"Alright, so let's move on to the"},{"startTime":423.238,"endTime":426.408,"body":"next category which we already have"},{"startTime":426.408,"endTime":429.638,"body":"been sort of talking about and I"},{"startTime":426.408,"endTime":429.638,"body":"want to  pitch this one to you and"},{"startTime":429.638,"endTime":431.108,"body":"I'll actually try to defend this one."},{"startTime":431.108,"endTime":431.348,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":431.618,"endTime":437.448,"body":"So if we have a special team"},{"startTime":431.618,"endTime":437.448,"body":"that just does MVP development."},{"startTime":437.748,"endTime":441.018,"body":"And launching with"},{"startTime":437.748,"endTime":441.018,"body":"customers to try new ideas."},{"startTime":441.018,"endTime":441.948,"body":"That's all they do."},{"startTime":442.248,"endTime":443.418,"body":"We take that away from the teams."},{"startTime":443.418,"endTime":444.828,"body":"We just have the special team do it."},{"startTime":444.998,"endTime":448.658,"body":", maybe the team still can do it"},{"startTime":444.998,"endTime":448.658,"body":"if they want, but the purpose of"},{"startTime":448.658,"endTime":453.548,"body":"this other team is just to try to"},{"startTime":448.658,"endTime":453.548,"body":"launch MVP IDs and see what hits."},{"startTime":453.598,"endTime":458.668,"body":"They can run around all the products in"},{"startTime":453.598,"endTime":458.668,"body":"my portfolio and be constantly probing"},{"startTime":458.968,"endTime":460.948,"body":"for what's gonna hit with customers."},{"startTime":461.248,"endTime":466.948,"body":"And basically they can accelerate any"},{"startTime":461.248,"endTime":466.948,"body":"one product by just doing this full time."},{"startTime":467.068,"endTime":469.848,"body":"You have to assume that , the team,"},{"startTime":467.068,"endTime":469.848,"body":"you've hired people and you've"},{"startTime":469.848,"endTime":473.718,"body":"honed the team where the people"},{"startTime":469.848,"endTime":473.718,"body":"you have on the team are very good"},{"startTime":474.108,"endTime":476.208,"body":"at doing stuff from the ground up."},{"startTime":476.208,"endTime":478.968,"body":"Like, like clickable wire frames"},{"startTime":476.208,"endTime":478.968,"body":"that connect to real data."},{"startTime":479.118,"endTime":481.188,"body":"Because like for example,"},{"startTime":479.118,"endTime":481.188,"body":"a lot of people don't know."},{"startTime":481.488,"endTime":483.858,"body":"people are surprised when I"},{"startTime":481.488,"endTime":483.858,"body":"tell 'em Figma, you can connect"},{"startTime":483.888,"endTime":485.298,"body":"Figma to a real data source."},{"startTime":485.308,"endTime":488.388,"body":". You can connect to a database or a"},{"startTime":485.308,"endTime":488.388,"body":"spreadsheet . So the data can be dynamic."},{"startTime":488.388,"endTime":489.558,"body":"You can be on the backend."},{"startTime":489.768,"endTime":492.408,"body":"Remember the old, the old, like the"},{"startTime":489.768,"endTime":492.408,"body":"man behind, the man behind the curtain?"},{"startTime":492.408,"endTime":492.467,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":492.467,"endTime":494.717,"body":"The old demos where somebody"},{"startTime":492.467,"endTime":494.717,"body":"was behind the thing, like"},{"startTime":494.717,"endTime":495.738,"body":"changing the data or whatever."},{"startTime":495.738,"endTime":497.388,"body":"you can do that kind of demo."},{"startTime":497.468,"endTime":498.098,"body":"And the customer."},{"startTime":498.098,"endTime":498.608,"body":"They would never know."},{"startTime":498.608,"endTime":499.598,"body":"It's not a real product."},{"startTime":499.628,"endTime":502.268,"body":"unless there's a certain level of"},{"startTime":499.628,"endTime":502.268,"body":"savvy with software development"},{"startTime":502.323,"endTime":503.313,"body":"or if they right click."},{"startTime":503.313,"endTime":506.193,"body":"'cause in figure, you right click it"},{"startTime":503.313,"endTime":506.193,"body":"shows you all the clickable elements"},{"startTime":506.283,"endTime":508.723,"body":"anyway I don't dunno if I'm giving"},{"startTime":506.283,"endTime":508.723,"body":"away secrets, don't right click Yeah."},{"startTime":509.083,"endTime":509.533,"body":"People."},{"startTime":509.533,"endTime":514.213,"body":"it allows you to  test the"},{"startTime":509.533,"endTime":514.213,"body":"diversity of your portfolio."},{"startTime":514.373,"endTime":518.103,"body":"Constantly testing the outside"},{"startTime":514.373,"endTime":518.103,"body":"bounds of your portfolio."},{"startTime":518.153,"endTime":518.723,"body":"otherwise"},{"startTime":519.143,"endTime":522.893,"body":"teams sometimes get caught up in"},{"startTime":519.143,"endTime":522.893,"body":"feature development or infrastructure"},{"startTime":523.163,"endTime":528.103,"body":"stuff that they're told to do, and they"},{"startTime":523.163,"endTime":528.103,"body":"don't always reserve time to break out"},{"startTime":528.103,"endTime":529.273,"body":"and do something radically different."},{"startTime":529.273,"endTime":530.893,"body":"It's the whole, everyone's riding horses."},{"startTime":530.893,"endTime":533.263,"body":"You can't iterate your way"},{"startTime":530.893,"endTime":533.263,"body":"into like creating a car."},{"startTime":533.263,"endTime":534.253,"body":"You need a big leap."},{"startTime":534.403,"endTime":534.463,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":534.493,"endTime":538.933,"body":"So what would you say to the concept of"},{"startTime":534.493,"endTime":538.933,"body":"like, if you have a team that's constantly"},{"startTime":538.933,"endTime":540.583,"body":"probing the edges of your business."},{"startTime":540.883,"endTime":544.603,"body":"They can make these breakthroughs"},{"startTime":540.883,"endTime":544.603,"body":"and then when they prove an idea  a"},{"startTime":544.603,"endTime":548.133,"body":"true MVP they can bring it back to"},{"startTime":544.603,"endTime":548.133,"body":"your team, lay it out and help your"},{"startTime":548.133,"endTime":552.133,"body":"team and your product manager adjust"},{"startTime":548.133,"endTime":552.133,"body":"their roadmap and quarterly goals"},{"startTime":552.183,"endTime":555.553,"body":"Yeah, it's workable, I think as a"},{"startTime":552.183,"endTime":555.553,"body":"model, but here's what I think might"},{"startTime":555.553,"endTime":556.848,"body":"be a challenge with that, right?"},{"startTime":557.148,"endTime":561.258,"body":"If you've got that specialist team"},{"startTime":557.148,"endTime":561.258,"body":"doing this work with the client and"},{"startTime":561.258,"endTime":564.408,"body":"your development teams over here,"},{"startTime":561.258,"endTime":564.408,"body":"aren't they divorced from the client"},{"startTime":564.408,"endTime":567.858,"body":"a little bit so they don't hear"},{"startTime":564.408,"endTime":567.858,"body":"firsthand and have the opportunity"},{"startTime":567.858,"endTime":572.428,"body":"to ask questions firsthand, get that"},{"startTime":567.858,"endTime":572.428,"body":"feedback they're hearing secondhand"},{"startTime":572.478,"endTime":575.238,"body":"so there is that issue that"},{"startTime":572.478,"endTime":575.238,"body":"you have to get around."},{"startTime":575.238,"endTime":578.138,"body":"I think if I'm gonna push back"},{"startTime":575.238,"endTime":578.138,"body":"against that, that is valid."},{"startTime":578.438,"endTime":582.458,"body":"I think a way to nullify what you"},{"startTime":578.438,"endTime":582.458,"body":"just pointed out was you bring"},{"startTime":582.458,"endTime":586.448,"body":"the product manager or product"},{"startTime":582.458,"endTime":586.448,"body":"managers, you bring them with you."},{"startTime":586.453,"endTime":590.343,"body":"and you rely on them to get you"},{"startTime":586.453,"endTime":590.343,"body":"meaning the person on the innovation"},{"startTime":590.343,"endTime":592.623,"body":"team in front of their customers."},{"startTime":592.743,"endTime":596.383,"body":"You're sort of hijacking good working"},{"startTime":592.743,"endTime":596.383,"body":"processes To try your new stuff."},{"startTime":596.683,"endTime":598.733,"body":"It's fine, it's fine,  this"},{"startTime":596.683,"endTime":598.733,"body":"is the first time I'm working"},{"startTime":598.733,"endTime":599.633,"body":"through this talking point."},{"startTime":599.633,"endTime":604.713,"body":"So trust me, it's a better idea in my head"},{"startTime":599.633,"endTime":604.713,"body":"than it came out of my mouth, said Brian."},{"startTime":604.713,"endTime":605.823,"body":"Never in his life."},{"startTime":605.973,"endTime":610.293,"body":"But you're basically using all the"},{"startTime":605.973,"endTime":610.293,"body":"customer connections to probe new ideas."},{"startTime":610.353,"endTime":612.003,"body":"That actually seems like a benefit to me."},{"startTime":612.403,"endTime":614.923,"body":"it seems like a counterbalance to"},{"startTime":612.403,"endTime":614.923,"body":"this because the product manager"},{"startTime":614.923,"endTime":619.573,"body":"or whoever has these customer"},{"startTime":614.923,"endTime":619.573,"body":"contacts, they would probably be."},{"startTime":620.023,"endTime":623.503,"body":"Very standoffish about letting you"},{"startTime":620.023,"endTime":623.503,"body":"go in front of their customers."},{"startTime":623.503,"endTime":627.543,"body":"If your idea is not great,"},{"startTime":623.503,"endTime":627.543,"body":"cannibalizing features or dangerous"},{"startTime":627.543,"endTime":628.833,"body":"they probably would push back."},{"startTime":628.893,"endTime":631.743,"body":"And that is probably your signal"},{"startTime":628.893,"endTime":631.743,"body":"if you are the person on this"},{"startTime":631.743,"endTime":633.913,"body":"innovation team, these guys away."},{"startTime":633.913,"endTime":634.543,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":634.543,"endTime":636.321,"body":"yeah I don't really have"},{"startTime":634.543,"endTime":636.321,"body":"a great idea or whatever."},{"startTime":636.361,"endTime":637.081,"body":"What do you think about that?"},{"startTime":637.111,"endTime":638.191,"body":"No, I think that's legit."},{"startTime":638.221,"endTime":643.416,"body":"I I, I think you can, you can adopt this"},{"startTime":638.221,"endTime":643.416,"body":"model suit your purpose, so maybe even"},{"startTime":643.416,"endTime":645.096,"body":"have your salespeople in on that, right?"},{"startTime":645.096,"endTime":648.516,"body":"So they're aware of what is"},{"startTime":645.096,"endTime":648.516,"body":"actually being talked about,"},{"startTime":648.546,"endTime":650.046,"body":"quote, unquote, under the hood."},{"startTime":650.116,"endTime":652.806,"body":"oftentimes they don't really know"},{"startTime":650.116,"endTime":652.806,"body":"what's going on under the hood, so"},{"startTime":652.871,"endTime":654.961,"body":"yeah, you could adopt this model."},{"startTime":655.261,"endTime":656.281,"body":"In any way you want."},{"startTime":656.281,"endTime":656.611,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":656.611,"endTime":660.511,"body":"And the way you've described it, there's"},{"startTime":656.611,"endTime":660.511,"body":"probably a happy medium there, right?"},{"startTime":660.511,"endTime":663.331,"body":"you could say, well, maybe"},{"startTime":660.511,"endTime":663.331,"body":"have your tech lead present."},{"startTime":663.361,"endTime":663.571,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":663.781,"endTime":665.491,"body":"Have your product people present as well."},{"startTime":665.761,"endTime":668.251,"body":"Do a dry run first with your"},{"startTime":665.761,"endTime":668.251,"body":"internal product people, and"},{"startTime":668.251,"endTime":669.961,"body":"then go in front of a customer."},{"startTime":669.991,"endTime":671.821,"body":"there's different ways of doing this."},{"startTime":671.871,"endTime":673.341,"body":"I don't think there's"},{"startTime":671.871,"endTime":673.341,"body":"a black and white here."},{"startTime":673.341,"endTime":674.931,"body":"I like this idea."},{"startTime":674.931,"endTime":677.931,"body":"I think this is probably one of the"},{"startTime":674.931,"endTime":677.931,"body":"strongest points we will present"},{"startTime":677.991,"endTime":682.521,"body":"today of the idea of Hey, this"},{"startTime":677.991,"endTime":682.521,"body":"one team can always be pushing the"},{"startTime":682.521,"endTime":684.351,"body":"boundaries to launch you ahead."},{"startTime":684.771,"endTime":687.771,"body":"The issue with this at some"},{"startTime":684.771,"endTime":687.771,"body":"point in poker, we have to put"},{"startTime":687.771,"endTime":688.911,"body":"our cards down on the table."},{"startTime":688.961,"endTime":692.141,"body":"And you will see, Michael I have"},{"startTime":688.961,"endTime":692.141,"body":"four of a kind, but that fifth card."},{"startTime":692.441,"endTime":695.851,"body":"That fifth card, that fifth card"},{"startTime":692.441,"endTime":695.851,"body":"is corporate finance is gonna"},{"startTime":695.851,"endTime":698.911,"body":"look at this team and be like,"},{"startTime":695.851,"endTime":698.911,"body":"this team makes me no money."},{"startTime":699.211,"endTime":702.211,"body":"So I understand you're pushing the"},{"startTime":699.211,"endTime":702.211,"body":"edges of my portfolio, , what is"},{"startTime":702.211,"endTime":707.281,"body":"the ROI of pushing the edges of my"},{"startTime":702.211,"endTime":707.281,"body":"portfolio given that the revenue never"},{"startTime":707.281,"endTime":709.171,"body":"goes back to this innovation team."},{"startTime":709.471,"endTime":713.511,"body":"It goes back to the product team that"},{"startTime":709.471,"endTime":713.511,"body":"implements the if you actually push"},{"startTime":713.631,"endTime":718.161,"body":"an edge of your portfolio and think"},{"startTime":713.631,"endTime":718.161,"body":"there's a real market for this particular"},{"startTime":718.161,"endTime":722.361,"body":"thing that we developed, like a tiny"},{"startTime":718.161,"endTime":722.361,"body":"widget that's not automated at all."},{"startTime":722.721,"endTime":726.621,"body":"You guys should take it into your roadmap,"},{"startTime":722.721,"endTime":726.621,"body":"do three months of work on it, push it"},{"startTime":726.621,"endTime":731.331,"body":"out, and now you've got plus 15% revenue"},{"startTime":726.621,"endTime":731.331,"body":"year over year  it's like how many"},{"startTime":731.331,"endTime":733.911,"body":"companies are willing to staff a team."},{"startTime":734.316,"endTime":738.336,"body":"To do something like this where the"},{"startTime":734.316,"endTime":738.336,"body":"revenue can only be measured months and"},{"startTime":738.336,"endTime":742.536,"body":"months in the future, if not years in"},{"startTime":738.336,"endTime":742.536,"body":"the future, and then cannot be directly"},{"startTime":742.536,"endTime":745.266,"body":"tied back permanently to the other team."},{"startTime":745.456,"endTime":746.366,"body":"I concur with that."},{"startTime":746.366,"endTime":748.976,"body":"I think from a being conscious"},{"startTime":746.366,"endTime":748.976,"body":"point of view, this is hard."},{"startTime":749.056,"endTime":752.416,"body":"But  if your innovation team's not"},{"startTime":749.056,"endTime":752.416,"body":"very large, You might be able to do it."},{"startTime":752.956,"endTime":754.216,"body":"it should not be very large."},{"startTime":754.216,"endTime":754.636,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":754.816,"endTime":757.846,"body":"You could have, you could have like"},{"startTime":754.816,"endTime":757.846,"body":"a conglomerate for example, right?"},{"startTime":758.116,"endTime":762.916,"body":"Say, say your Unilever and you"},{"startTime":758.116,"endTime":762.916,"body":"have a whole series of product"},{"startTime":762.916,"endTime":767.356,"body":"portfolios every portfolio could have"},{"startTime":762.916,"endTime":767.356,"body":"a team of one or two potentially."},{"startTime":767.406,"endTime":769.716,"body":"And that's still absorbable."},{"startTime":769.766,"endTime":771.146,"body":"it's like the cost of doing business."},{"startTime":771.146,"endTime":772.001,"body":"It's the internal people."},{"startTime":772.001,"endTime":772.321,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":772.401,"endTime":774.316,"body":"Like those those bean"},{"startTime":772.401,"endTime":774.316,"body":"encounters themselves aren't"},{"startTime":774.316,"endTime":776.206,"body":"making any money directly, so."},{"startTime":776.506,"endTime":779.326,"body":"There's an argument we made there,"},{"startTime":776.506,"endTime":779.326,"body":"but also the counterpoint is if"},{"startTime":779.326,"endTime":780.736,"body":"you have too many people there."},{"startTime":780.786,"endTime":782.406,"body":"You're gonna stick out like a sore thumb."},{"startTime":782.496,"endTime":782.586,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":782.646,"endTime":783.516,"body":"On their spreadsheet."},{"startTime":783.546,"endTime":783.696,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":783.936,"endTime":785.856,"body":"So, yeah, I think there's"},{"startTime":783.936,"endTime":785.856,"body":"a balance to be had."},{"startTime":785.856,"endTime":787.176,"body":"Well, this was a good category."},{"startTime":787.176,"endTime":791.646,"body":"I feel like it's probably the best,"},{"startTime":787.176,"endTime":791.646,"body":"the best point we're gonna make."},{"startTime":791.646,"endTime":792.156,"body":"Four."},{"startTime":792.186,"endTime":792.726,"body":"Four."},{"startTime":792.786,"endTime":792.906,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":792.906,"endTime":795.836,"body":"So on that, I think I'll"},{"startTime":792.906,"endTime":795.836,"body":"award a hundred points four."},{"startTime":795.836,"endTime":797.906,"body":"and on the against"},{"startTime":795.836,"endTime":797.906,"body":"category, I'll award it."},{"startTime":797.936,"endTime":798.986,"body":"One monkey"},{"startTime":799.056,"endTime":801.256,"body":"Three monkeys With bananas."},{"startTime":801.256,"endTime":801.586,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":801.616,"endTime":802.966,"body":"I don't know how to draw a banana."},{"startTime":803.266,"endTime":804.436,"body":"You know how to draw a monkey."},{"startTime":804.736,"endTime":805.066,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":805.076,"endTime":806.546,"body":"It's a stick figure with big arms."},{"startTime":806.546,"endTime":807.446,"body":"Ah, right."},{"startTime":807.506,"endTime":809.066,"body":"Three monkeys and three bananas."},{"startTime":809.066,"endTime":809.276,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":809.276,"endTime":811.016,"body":"Be against we're all equal opportunity."},{"startTime":811.116,"endTime":811.506,"body":"Ape."},{"startTime":811.651,"endTime":812.351,"body":"that's exactly right."},{"startTime":812.361,"endTime":816.671,"body":"Let's go down to what I think is another"},{"startTime":812.361,"endTime":816.671,"body":"strong candidate for this one, another"},{"startTime":816.671,"endTime":823.571,"body":"one that should be for the innovation"},{"startTime":816.671,"endTime":823.571,"body":"team is that it creates strategic"},{"startTime":823.721,"endTime":826.871,"body":"level initiatives, Because like what"},{"startTime":823.721,"endTime":826.871,"body":"I was talking about you're pushing the"},{"startTime":826.931,"endTime":829.271,"body":"boundaries of what your products can do."},{"startTime":829.271,"endTime":830.561,"body":"And you're going for a breakthrough."},{"startTime":830.861,"endTime":834.551,"body":"And at the leadership team, they'll"},{"startTime":830.861,"endTime":834.551,"body":"say, well, this effort is strategic."},{"startTime":834.641,"endTime":838.631,"body":"And what they really mean by the"},{"startTime":834.641,"endTime":838.631,"body":"words quote, strategic is, I don't"},{"startTime":838.631,"endTime":840.011,"body":"care how much money it costs."},{"startTime":840.311,"endTime":841.511,"body":"I've gotta have it, right."},{"startTime":841.841,"endTime":842.921,"body":"I've gotta have this breakthrough."},{"startTime":843.251,"endTime":846.651,"body":"And  the breakthrough doesn't have"},{"startTime":843.251,"endTime":846.651,"body":"to pay for itself right now, or"},{"startTime":846.701,"endTime":849.911,"body":"quarter to quarter or whatever,"},{"startTime":846.701,"endTime":849.911,"body":"if you're a quarterly capitalism"},{"startTime":849.961,"endTime":850.051,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":850.531,"endTime":853.876,"body":"However,  you're saying that having"},{"startTime":850.531,"endTime":853.876,"body":"a separate team outside of the normal"},{"startTime":853.876,"endTime":859.121,"body":"teams somehow encourages alignment with"},{"startTime":853.876,"endTime":859.121,"body":"strategic goals, strategic initiatives."},{"startTime":859.171,"endTime":862.051,"body":"That's, that's a tough one for me"},{"startTime":859.171,"endTime":862.051,"body":"to, I, I understand the concept."},{"startTime":862.091,"endTime":864.521,"body":"like think about a typical product"},{"startTime":862.091,"endTime":864.521,"body":"if I'm gonna defend this one,"},{"startTime":864.791,"endTime":865.691,"body":"I guess that's what I'm doing."},{"startTime":865.691,"endTime":866.591,"body":"This this podcast."},{"startTime":866.591,"endTime":867.701,"body":"I'm defending all these,"},{"startTime":868.061,"endTime":870.971,"body":"if you have this innovation team"},{"startTime":868.061,"endTime":870.971,"body":"and they're separate from your"},{"startTime":870.971,"endTime":874.751,"body":"product teams, their roadmap gets"},{"startTime":870.971,"endTime":874.751,"body":"populated just like a normal product"},{"startTime":874.751,"endTime":876.401,"body":"manager's roadmap gets populated."},{"startTime":876.711,"endTime":881.761,"body":"they're talking to like the head of the"},{"startTime":876.711,"endTime":881.761,"body":"business the C-level people probably Yeah."},{"startTime":881.911,"endTime":884.521,"body":"Or maybe like director level people"},{"startTime":881.911,"endTime":884.521,"body":"in a larger organization to say"},{"startTime":884.521,"endTime":886.56,"body":"what boundaries should we test?"},{"startTime":886.56,"endTime":888.6,"body":"What new markets should we probe?"},{"startTime":888.94,"endTime":891.09,"body":"So you're saying this team is"},{"startTime":888.94,"endTime":891.09,"body":"trying to innovate, but they're"},{"startTime":891.09,"endTime":897.03,"body":"restricting themselves only to the"},{"startTime":891.09,"endTime":897.03,"body":"strategic level of the organization."},{"startTime":897.12,"endTime":897.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":897.27,"endTime":902.61,"body":"So their roadmap is directly contributing"},{"startTime":897.27,"endTime":902.61,"body":"to figuring out our strategic direction."},{"startTime":902.79,"endTime":904.44,"body":"They're almost like a test team."},{"startTime":904.71,"endTime":906.57,"body":"Oh, there, you're not"},{"startTime":904.71,"endTime":906.57,"body":"allowed to say test team."},{"startTime":906.78,"endTime":906.81,"body":"Ooh."},{"startTime":906.9,"endTime":909.45,"body":"Test testers are like, Ooh,"},{"startTime":906.9,"endTime":909.45,"body":"that's, that's an offshore thing."},{"startTime":909.45,"endTime":911.38,"body":"we want to fire all of the testers."},{"startTime":911.53,"endTime":914.83,"body":"It's almost like people whose job it"},{"startTime":911.53,"endTime":914.83,"body":"is to test, but the thing that they're"},{"startTime":914.83,"endTime":919.63,"body":"testing is strategic initiatives"},{"startTime":914.83,"endTime":919.63,"body":"viability, business viability."},{"startTime":919.69,"endTime":919.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":920.05,"endTime":921.37,"body":"Against a certain market."},{"startTime":921.85,"endTime":922.045,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":922.045,"endTime":925.06,"body":"They're trying to scope out"},{"startTime":922.045,"endTime":925.06,"body":"potentially viable products"},{"startTime":925.06,"endTime":931.3,"body":"their roadmap nicely fulfills the"},{"startTime":925.06,"endTime":931.3,"body":"organizational strategic roadmap."},{"startTime":931.45,"endTime":931.69,"body":"Right,"},{"startTime":931.87,"endTime":932.575,"body":"That's all good."},{"startTime":932.875,"endTime":935.905,"body":"The executives feel good about"},{"startTime":932.875,"endTime":935.905,"body":"that because they can see that,"},{"startTime":935.905,"endTime":937.105,"body":"oh yeah, look at this team."},{"startTime":937.105,"endTime":940.195,"body":"They're doing exactly what we,"},{"startTime":937.105,"endTime":940.195,"body":"our vision is being fulfilled."},{"startTime":940.195,"endTime":940.375,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":940.43,"endTime":946.22,"body":"The problem is how do you justify that"},{"startTime":940.43,"endTime":946.22,"body":"team, because there is no ROI on that"},{"startTime":946.27,"endTime":947.83,"body":"it's not that it's hard to measure."},{"startTime":948.295,"endTime":953.175,"body":"there is nothing because whatever they're"},{"startTime":948.295,"endTime":953.175,"body":"doing, to your point about doing tests and"},{"startTime":953.175,"endTime":955.155,"body":"these aren't even hard tests often, right?"},{"startTime":955.205,"endTime":960.265,"body":"in that sense of the word, they're"},{"startTime":955.205,"endTime":960.265,"body":"basically just surveys, polls maybe"},{"startTime":960.295,"endTime":963.715,"body":"some vaporware that's being produced"},{"startTime":960.295,"endTime":963.715,"body":"to kind of fill out the customers."},{"startTime":963.745,"endTime":964.885,"body":"There's no ROI there."},{"startTime":965.045,"endTime":969.37,"body":"The difficulty is how long are"},{"startTime":965.045,"endTime":969.37,"body":"they funded before someone says,"},{"startTime":969.37,"endTime":970.93,"body":"Hey, we're wasting money here."},{"startTime":971.38,"endTime":973.36,"body":"I think that's the problem you"},{"startTime":971.38,"endTime":973.36,"body":"have to solve first though."},{"startTime":973.36,"endTime":976.96,"body":"Your financial model needs to"},{"startTime":973.36,"endTime":976.96,"body":"be corrected where you can,"},{"startTime":977.26,"endTime":979.48,"body":"you can tie ROI to this team."},{"startTime":979.77,"endTime":984.801,"body":"if a team is picking up ideas and"},{"startTime":979.77,"endTime":984.801,"body":"concepts that were first vetted and"},{"startTime":985.111,"endTime":989.29,"body":"given the go ahead from this team, as"},{"startTime":985.111,"endTime":989.29,"body":"the development process moves on and"},{"startTime":989.29,"endTime":992.79,"body":"revenue starts getting tied to that"},{"startTime":989.29,"endTime":992.79,"body":"feature the money needs to flow back."},{"startTime":992.82,"endTime":992.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":992.97,"endTime":995.49,"body":"They need to accrue some kind"},{"startTime":992.97,"endTime":995.49,"body":"of ro i is what you're saying?"},{"startTime":995.49,"endTime":996.09,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":996.09,"endTime":998.94,"body":"even just like Disney points on paper,"},{"startTime":996.09,"endTime":998.94,"body":"like Mickey Mouse points on paper."},{"startTime":998.94,"endTime":1000.11,"body":"It'll be that something."},{"startTime":1000.18,"endTime":1001.14,"body":"But still you're right."},{"startTime":1001.14,"endTime":1003.12,"body":"there's justification"},{"startTime":1001.14,"endTime":1003.12,"body":"at the end of the day."},{"startTime":1003.15,"endTime":1006.54,"body":"Five ideas went through and they're"},{"startTime":1003.15,"endTime":1006.54,"body":"actually now in our product."},{"startTime":1006.79,"endTime":1007.51,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":1007.72,"endTime":1009.55,"body":"What's the uptake with"},{"startTime":1007.72,"endTime":1009.55,"body":"our customers, et cetera."},{"startTime":1009.871,"endTime":1010.981,"body":"There's a way to do that."},{"startTime":1011.036,"endTime":1012.006,"body":"I imagine, right?"},{"startTime":1012.036,"endTime":1014.496,"body":"But I don't know if it's"},{"startTime":1012.036,"endTime":1014.496,"body":"being done out there."},{"startTime":1014.846,"endTime":1017.336,"body":"Well, it's not, yeah, that"},{"startTime":1014.846,"endTime":1017.336,"body":"pretty much settles it."},{"startTime":1017.606,"endTime":1017.935,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1017.935,"endTime":1021.655,"body":"so as far as being strategic,"},{"startTime":1017.935,"endTime":1021.655,"body":"there's another side to leadership,"},{"startTime":1022.005,"endTime":1025.565,"body":"the visibility of seeing that"},{"startTime":1022.005,"endTime":1025.565,"body":"you're putting effort into a thing."},{"startTime":1025.615,"endTime":1030.026,"body":"without, quarterly ROI that in and of"},{"startTime":1025.615,"endTime":1030.026,"body":"itself could be valuable to leadership."},{"startTime":1030.026,"endTime":1033.566,"body":"There still is something"},{"startTime":1030.026,"endTime":1033.566,"body":"in this that is valuable."},{"startTime":1033.616,"endTime":1037.656,"body":"Tangible, Definitely with a promise,  this"},{"startTime":1033.616,"endTime":1037.656,"body":"will, one day this will become real."},{"startTime":1037.656,"endTime":1040.236,"body":"So it's like almost making paper"},{"startTime":1037.656,"endTime":1040.236,"body":"airplanes, but that's fine."},{"startTime":1040.536,"endTime":1043.266,"body":"The danger again, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1040.536,"endTime":1043.266,"body":"go to the other side, right."},{"startTime":1043.266,"endTime":1048.996,"body":"The danger is with these executives"},{"startTime":1043.266,"endTime":1048.996,"body":"this leaves a back door clearly open for"},{"startTime":1048.996,"endTime":1051.396,"body":"them to push through their pet projects."},{"startTime":1051.696,"endTime":1052.146,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":1052.146,"endTime":1054.546,"body":"So all that stuff about getting"},{"startTime":1052.146,"endTime":1054.546,"body":"positive signals from the"},{"startTime":1054.546,"endTime":1055.716,"body":"market goes out the window."},{"startTime":1056.056,"endTime":1060.526,"body":"The risk here is you will"},{"startTime":1056.056,"endTime":1060.526,"body":"develop something that is"},{"startTime":1060.576,"endTime":1061.611,"body":"disconnected from reality."},{"startTime":1061.616,"endTime":1061.776,"body":"Reality."},{"startTime":1061.776,"endTime":1061.866,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1062.196,"endTime":1062.646,"body":"To be honest."},{"startTime":1062.716,"endTime":1064.306,"body":"This is why I hate the acronym MVP."},{"startTime":1064.606,"endTime":1068.536,"body":"Because like MVP should be helping"},{"startTime":1064.606,"endTime":1068.536,"body":"you in the case where you wanna make"},{"startTime":1068.536,"endTime":1072.586,"body":"sure that an something that you're"},{"startTime":1068.536,"endTime":1072.586,"body":"about to build has business viability,"},{"startTime":1072.976,"endTime":1076.756,"body":"meaning the business can sell it, the"},{"startTime":1072.976,"endTime":1076.756,"body":"business can receive money from it."},{"startTime":1077.176,"endTime":1079.816,"body":"The business knows how to"},{"startTime":1077.176,"endTime":1079.816,"body":"communicate its value, right?"},{"startTime":1080.106,"endTime":1083.106,"body":"It fits well into like sales"},{"startTime":1080.106,"endTime":1083.106,"body":"process and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1083.496,"endTime":1087.246,"body":"And if you're building things completely"},{"startTime":1083.496,"endTime":1087.246,"body":"disconnected from your current"},{"startTime":1087.246,"endTime":1088.826,"body":"business model what are you doing?"},{"startTime":1088.826,"endTime":1089.936,"body":"why are you even working on that?"},{"startTime":1089.936,"endTime":1090.026,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1090.326,"endTime":1093.056,"body":"There's not, there's literally no other"},{"startTime":1090.326,"endTime":1093.056,"body":"important things you could be working on."},{"startTime":1093.266,"endTime":1097.406,"body":"This is a big danger of farming off your"},{"startTime":1093.266,"endTime":1097.406,"body":"innovation to another team, is they're"},{"startTime":1097.406,"endTime":1101.396,"body":"gonna go off and build you a bunch of"},{"startTime":1097.406,"endTime":1101.396,"body":"cool tech stuff and put it on a shelf."},{"startTime":1101.696,"endTime":1103.286,"body":"well, who pays those people's salaries?"},{"startTime":1103.286,"endTime":1104.426,"body":"Building cool tech stuff."},{"startTime":1104.426,"endTime":1108.446,"body":"We did an episode on remember we"},{"startTime":1104.426,"endTime":1108.446,"body":"did an episode on, shared services"},{"startTime":1108.446,"endTime":1110.006,"body":"versus like, that was quite early on."},{"startTime":1110.006,"endTime":1110.546,"body":"Yeah, it was."},{"startTime":1110.546,"endTime":1111.686,"body":"Yeah, it was a while ago."},{"startTime":1111.816,"endTime":1117.126,"body":"Arguing Agile 1 76, why shared"},{"startTime":1111.816,"endTime":1117.126,"body":"services fail in Agile organizations."},{"startTime":1117.346,"endTime":1119.981,"body":"It should just be why"},{"startTime":1117.346,"endTime":1119.981,"body":"shared services fail."},{"startTime":1120.071,"endTime":1120.461,"body":"Period."},{"startTime":1120.511,"endTime":1121.861,"body":"That was the one we were talking about."},{"startTime":1121.891,"endTime":1125.191,"body":"Keep all my specialists outside the"},{"startTime":1121.891,"endTime":1125.191,"body":"team, which is very similar to this"},{"startTime":1125.191,"endTime":1129.841,"body":"topic of I'll keep all my innovation"},{"startTime":1125.191,"endTime":1129.841,"body":"people, all my very special chosen"},{"startTime":1129.841,"endTime":1134.131,"body":"children outside of the teams, outside"},{"startTime":1129.841,"endTime":1134.131,"body":"of the unwashed masses of the teams."},{"startTime":1134.251,"endTime":1134.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1134.641,"endTime":1135.631,"body":"they'll do my special work."},{"startTime":1135.631,"endTime":1137.461,"body":"It's not an uncommon model though, right?"},{"startTime":1137.641,"endTime":1140.071,"body":"We've seen that in some"},{"startTime":1137.641,"endTime":1140.071,"body":"organizations where they have."},{"startTime":1140.416,"endTime":1145.226,"body":"Things like innovation works, skunk"},{"startTime":1140.416,"endTime":1145.226,"body":"works product labs or digital labs"},{"startTime":1145.226,"endTime":1147.176,"body":"That's the specialist niche, right?"},{"startTime":1147.226,"endTime":1151.996,"body":"they're the ones pushing the boundaries,"},{"startTime":1147.226,"endTime":1151.996,"body":"But the problem with that is money aside,"},{"startTime":1152.276,"endTime":1156.206,"body":"you're building a fully cross-functional"},{"startTime":1152.276,"endTime":1156.206,"body":"team that doesn't actually work in any"},{"startTime":1156.206,"endTime":1160.516,"body":"product, that's kind of ludicrous Are they"},{"startTime":1156.206,"endTime":1160.516,"body":"talking to customers on a regular basis or"},{"startTime":1160.516,"endTime":1162.256,"body":"are they just doing internal facing work?"},{"startTime":1162.256,"endTime":1165.706,"body":"They think is cool, like"},{"startTime":1162.256,"endTime":1165.706,"body":"cool tech developments?"},{"startTime":1166.006,"endTime":1169.116,"body":"'cause again, how long are you gonna"},{"startTime":1166.006,"endTime":1169.116,"body":"do that until the money runs out?"},{"startTime":1169.441,"endTime":1172.291,"body":"normal development teams doing"},{"startTime":1169.441,"endTime":1172.291,"body":"product development, they have"},{"startTime":1172.291,"endTime":1175.111,"body":"to deal with how long can we do"},{"startTime":1172.291,"endTime":1175.111,"body":"this until the money runs out."},{"startTime":1175.171,"endTime":1175.441,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1175.621,"endTime":1178.761,"body":"And this team doesn't I know it makes"},{"startTime":1175.621,"endTime":1178.761,"body":"no sense, but I'd say a majority of"},{"startTime":1178.771,"endTime":1183.241,"body":"the teams out there that are doing this"},{"startTime":1178.771,"endTime":1183.241,"body":"are doing stuff because it's cool tech."},{"startTime":1183.371,"endTime":1184.391,"body":"It's the latest thing."},{"startTime":1184.391,"endTime":1185.141,"body":"So we're gonna do it."},{"startTime":1185.201,"endTime":1188.881,"body":"But you'll end up with a non-viable"},{"startTime":1185.201,"endTime":1188.881,"body":"product Either because the"},{"startTime":1188.881,"endTime":1192.221,"body":"business case isn't around it,"},{"startTime":1188.881,"endTime":1192.221,"body":"or it's not what customers need."},{"startTime":1192.431,"endTime":1195.671,"body":"Or you just haven't done any"},{"startTime":1192.431,"endTime":1195.671,"body":"actual testing in the field."},{"startTime":1195.971,"endTime":1198.701,"body":"You know, you're just building"},{"startTime":1195.971,"endTime":1198.701,"body":"things that you think are cool."},{"startTime":1198.771,"endTime":1203.301,"body":"Even if there was a little traction"},{"startTime":1198.771,"endTime":1203.301,"body":"beyond that, these specialist teams"},{"startTime":1203.301,"endTime":1208.55,"body":"will then end up passing that tech to"},{"startTime":1203.301,"endTime":1208.55,"body":"the development teams to integrate."},{"startTime":1208.67,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"And now you've got a situation where"},{"startTime":1208.67,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"the dev teams are trying to fit a"},{"startTime":1211.57,"endTime":1214.18,"body":"square peg in a round hole, right?"},{"startTime":1214.42,"endTime":1217.66,"body":"Because the integration challenges"},{"startTime":1214.42,"endTime":1217.66,"body":"don't come until then, right?"},{"startTime":1218.14,"endTime":1220.81,"body":"So you may as well just"},{"startTime":1218.14,"endTime":1220.81,"body":"discover and integrate."},{"startTime":1221.11,"endTime":1222.16,"body":"As and when needed."},{"startTime":1222.25,"endTime":1222.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1222.79,"endTime":1225.73,"body":"Well, I'm pretty sure we just talked about"},{"startTime":1222.79,"endTime":1225.73,"body":"two categories without giving points."},{"startTime":1225.76,"endTime":1231.04,"body":"I want to jump us over to, I think that"},{"startTime":1225.76,"endTime":1231.04,"body":"this innovation team being separate"},{"startTime":1231.13,"endTime":1235.75,"body":"is gonna end up complicating your"},{"startTime":1231.13,"endTime":1235.75,"body":"product roadmap and prioritization"},{"startTime":1235.75,"endTime":1241.24,"body":"decisions, and also your ability to"},{"startTime":1235.75,"endTime":1241.24,"body":"communicate your product roadmap."},{"startTime":1241.24,"endTime":1245.59,"body":"Your goal setting apparatus in the"},{"startTime":1241.24,"endTime":1245.59,"body":"business is gonna complicate that."},{"startTime":1246.01,"endTime":1248.82,"body":"So if you do quarterly planning"},{"startTime":1246.01,"endTime":1248.82,"body":"and stuff to say , oh, we're gonna"},{"startTime":1248.82,"endTime":1251.55,"body":"refocus our roadmap and decide"},{"startTime":1248.82,"endTime":1251.55,"body":"what new goals we're gonna attack."},{"startTime":1251.58,"endTime":1254.1,"body":"And then, then as we decide"},{"startTime":1251.58,"endTime":1254.1,"body":"them, we're gonna do some tests"},{"startTime":1254.1,"endTime":1256.86,"body":"and then the, the results of"},{"startTime":1254.1,"endTime":1256.86,"body":"those tests land on the roadmap."},{"startTime":1257.23,"endTime":1261.25,"body":"Now you've got this other"},{"startTime":1257.23,"endTime":1261.25,"body":"team saying, we did the thing."},{"startTime":1261.61,"endTime":1263.86,"body":"And it was successful, I don't"},{"startTime":1261.61,"endTime":1263.86,"body":"understand what you're doing."},{"startTime":1263.91,"endTime":1264.93,"body":"We did a thing for you."},{"startTime":1265.05,"endTime":1266.04,"body":"It was successful."},{"startTime":1266.16,"endTime":1267.57,"body":"Why are you sleeping on this?"},{"startTime":1267.85,"endTime":1271.42,"body":"I, as a product manager, don't want to"},{"startTime":1267.85,"endTime":1271.42,"body":"be in that position where I'm dealing"},{"startTime":1271.42,"endTime":1275.57,"body":"with this other team that seems to be"},{"startTime":1271.42,"endTime":1275.57,"body":"proceeding squarely from ego saying"},{"startTime":1275.57,"endTime":1277.091,"body":"oh, I developed a thing in house."},{"startTime":1277.091,"endTime":1277.99,"body":"It's so great."},{"startTime":1277.99,"endTime":1279.52,"body":"What customers did you test that with?"},{"startTime":1279.845,"endTime":1281.135,"body":"Why would I test with customers?"},{"startTime":1281.135,"endTime":1283.125,"body":"How dare you questioning me or whatever."},{"startTime":1283.275,"endTime":1284.115,"body":"Get outta my office."},{"startTime":1284.385,"endTime":1284.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1284.685,"endTime":1285.945,"body":"We don't want reality here."},{"startTime":1286.135,"endTime":1289.255,"body":"For the sake of the podcast, I"},{"startTime":1286.135,"endTime":1289.255,"body":"can argue the other side of it,"},{"startTime":1289.495,"endTime":1290.545,"body":"even though I don't agree with it."},{"startTime":1290.575,"endTime":1294.876,"body":"the other side of it is by having"},{"startTime":1290.575,"endTime":1294.876,"body":"this specialist team do innovation,"},{"startTime":1295.206,"endTime":1299.166,"body":"I'm removing the load from your"},{"startTime":1295.206,"endTime":1299.166,"body":"dev teams to have to do that."},{"startTime":1299.466,"endTime":1299.886,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1300.245,"endTime":1304.926,"body":"And I'm in their sprint reviews,"},{"startTime":1300.245,"endTime":1304.926,"body":"so I'm plugged in with them."},{"startTime":1305.146,"endTime":1305.325,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1305.376,"endTime":1309.086,"body":"So that's the other side is like,"},{"startTime":1305.376,"endTime":1309.086,"body":"well, I'm reducing that load so they"},{"startTime":1309.086,"endTime":1312.826,"body":"can develop and we're constantly"},{"startTime":1309.086,"endTime":1312.826,"body":"feeding them what to work on so they"},{"startTime":1312.826,"endTime":1314.176,"body":"don't have to figure that stuff out."},{"startTime":1314.176,"endTime":1315.196,"body":"We're already doing that."},{"startTime":1315.546,"endTime":1316.356,"body":"So there's a lot."},{"startTime":1316.386,"endTime":1317.226,"body":"That's a fallacy."},{"startTime":1317.226,"endTime":1318.63,"body":"I hear that from executives all the time."},{"startTime":1318.63,"endTime":1319.975,"body":"It's like, course, I'll just tell"},{"startTime":1318.63,"endTime":1319.975,"body":"you what you don't have to do."},{"startTime":1320.275,"endTime":1321.475,"body":"Customer discovery and all that."},{"startTime":1321.475,"endTime":1322.174,"body":"Marty Cagan and stuff."},{"startTime":1322.195,"endTime":1323.304,"body":"I'll just tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1323.354,"endTime":1326.294,"body":"Also,  why don't we just let this"},{"startTime":1323.354,"endTime":1326.294,"body":"innovation team talk to all the customers"},{"startTime":1326.354,"endTime":1331.644,"body":"and then they can do all the discovery"},{"startTime":1326.354,"endTime":1331.644,"body":"for us and they can be the discovery team"},{"startTime":1331.644,"endTime":1336.444,"body":"and we'll be the delivery team and we"},{"startTime":1331.644,"endTime":1336.444,"body":"can divide the two sides of that diamond."},{"startTime":1336.744,"endTime":1337.526,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":1337.819,"endTime":1337.939,"body":"Disaster."},{"startTime":1337.99,"endTime":1339.76,"body":"you see how slippery, like that slope."},{"startTime":1339.76,"endTime":1341.559,"body":"I understand that slope"},{"startTime":1339.76,"endTime":1341.559,"body":"wasn't even slippery."},{"startTime":1341.559,"endTime":1344.89,"body":"it took one step To get to"},{"startTime":1341.559,"endTime":1344.89,"body":"that slope straight down."},{"startTime":1344.94,"endTime":1348.32,"body":". It was an academic kind of argument"},{"startTime":1344.94,"endTime":1348.32,"body":"against, but a lot of what we're"},{"startTime":1348.32,"endTime":1352.459,"body":"talking about today, the academic"},{"startTime":1348.32,"endTime":1352.459,"body":"sanitized version of it, the run"},{"startTime":1352.459,"endTime":1354.379,"body":"by accountants version of it."},{"startTime":1354.83,"endTime":1358.129,"body":"It does like that step makes a"},{"startTime":1354.83,"endTime":1358.129,"body":"lot of sense to those people."},{"startTime":1358.189,"endTime":1358.729,"body":"Sure thing."},{"startTime":1358.98,"endTime":1359.28,"body":"Also."},{"startTime":1359.28,"endTime":1359.76,"body":"It's terrible."},{"startTime":1360.24,"endTime":1360.99,"body":"So there's that too."},{"startTime":1361.23,"endTime":1361.53,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1361.56,"endTime":1362.91,"body":"let's hit all of our points here."},{"startTime":1362.91,"endTime":1366.66,"body":"We talked about disconnecting the"},{"startTime":1362.91,"endTime":1366.66,"body":"development with the reality of"},{"startTime":1366.66,"endTime":1370.56,"body":"what customers need and the customer"},{"startTime":1366.66,"endTime":1370.56,"body":"discovery process  even if you"},{"startTime":1370.56,"endTime":1375.75,"body":"have good customer discovery chops,"},{"startTime":1370.56,"endTime":1375.75,"body":"now we're gonna fight about it."},{"startTime":1375.75,"endTime":1379.77,"body":"When you try to jam it into my roadmap or"},{"startTime":1375.75,"endTime":1379.77,"body":"force it into my roadmap because if I am a"},{"startTime":1379.77,"endTime":1384.08,"body":"real product management, a self-contained"},{"startTime":1379.77,"endTime":1384.08,"body":"team that uses product discovery."},{"startTime":1384.38,"endTime":1386.09,"body":"I am leading my own efforts as well."},{"startTime":1386.15,"endTime":1389.45,"body":"now you're doing discovery efforts"},{"startTime":1386.15,"endTime":1389.45,"body":"and I'm doing discovery efforts, and"},{"startTime":1389.45,"endTime":1391.01,"body":"we're both working outta my backlog."},{"startTime":1391.13,"endTime":1393.53,"body":"So now we got two different teams"},{"startTime":1391.13,"endTime":1393.53,"body":"saying, we think this should"},{"startTime":1393.53,"endTime":1394.85,"body":"be the next highest priority."},{"startTime":1395.15,"endTime":1400.82,"body":"So I want to cap the disconnected"},{"startTime":1395.15,"endTime":1400.82,"body":"from customer needs category."},{"startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1404.09,"body":"I give no points because nobody"},{"startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1404.09,"body":"deserves 'em in this category."},{"startTime":1404.09,"endTime":1404.399,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":1404.559,"endTime":1404.679,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1404.679,"endTime":1405.764,"body":"Because we didn't accomplish anything."},{"startTime":1406.074,"endTime":1410.514,"body":"and I want to deal with a much"},{"startTime":1406.074,"endTime":1410.514,"body":"scarier category to me, which is we're"},{"startTime":1410.514,"endTime":1414.834,"body":"setting up this innovation team so"},{"startTime":1410.514,"endTime":1414.834,"body":"that they can test the boundaries and"},{"startTime":1414.834,"endTime":1416.634,"body":"help us accelerate into the future."},{"startTime":1417.114,"endTime":1422.214,"body":"And we are claiming that it"},{"startTime":1417.114,"endTime":1422.214,"body":"actually helps reduce organizational"},{"startTime":1422.214,"endTime":1424.854,"body":"politics around innovation, right?"},{"startTime":1424.854,"endTime":1427.914,"body":"because sometimes when you innovate,"},{"startTime":1424.854,"endTime":1427.914,"body":"you're like, well, whose job is."},{"startTime":1428.289,"endTime":1431.129,"body":"X, Y, z oh, well, is it the"},{"startTime":1428.289,"endTime":1431.129,"body":"engineer's job to do whatever?"},{"startTime":1431.279,"endTime":1432.839,"body":"Is it the product manager to do whatever?"},{"startTime":1432.929,"endTime":1436.379,"body":"Sometimes the product manager says"},{"startTime":1432.929,"endTime":1436.379,"body":"that the developers aren't doing enough"},{"startTime":1436.379,"endTime":1436.479,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1436.479,"endTime":1438.744,"body":"Or sometimes you have development"},{"startTime":1436.479,"endTime":1438.744,"body":"organization where the developers"},{"startTime":1438.744,"endTime":1441.324,"body":"don't wanna talk to customers"},{"startTime":1438.744,"endTime":1441.324,"body":"or  I'll give you a great example."},{"startTime":1441.444,"endTime":1445.054,"body":"You ever been in an organization where"},{"startTime":1441.444,"endTime":1445.054,"body":"you hear this term hands on keyboards."},{"startTime":1445.534,"endTime":1446.164,"body":"They're like, why?"},{"startTime":1446.164,"endTime":1449.944,"body":"Why am I gonna break away the developers"},{"startTime":1446.164,"endTime":1449.944,"body":"to do this thing when they're not turning"},{"startTime":1449.944,"endTime":1454.014,"body":"in productive coding time, they're just"},{"startTime":1449.944,"endTime":1454.014,"body":"playing with new technologies that's"},{"startTime":1454.014,"endTime":1455.484,"body":"not counted against their utilization."},{"startTime":1455.484,"endTime":1460.504,"body":"So like on paper, they suffer for  bad"},{"startTime":1455.484,"endTime":1460.504,"body":"metrics they're being judged on, Right."},{"startTime":1460.534,"endTime":1461.104,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1461.134,"endTime":1461.824,"body":"people are like."},{"startTime":1462.154,"endTime":1463.774,"body":"Brian, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1462.154,"endTime":1463.774,"body":"a bad faith argument."},{"startTime":1463.774,"endTime":1465.544,"body":"'cause it's, there are bad"},{"startTime":1463.774,"endTime":1465.544,"body":"metrics in the first place."},{"startTime":1465.544,"endTime":1466.054,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1466.084,"endTime":1466.774,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1466.824,"endTime":1470.534,"body":"But also , in order to get around"},{"startTime":1466.824,"endTime":1470.534,"body":"all of the politics involved in"},{"startTime":1470.534,"endTime":1473.414,"body":"like, well I'd like to use your"},{"startTime":1470.534,"endTime":1473.414,"body":"developers to talk to customers."},{"startTime":1473.594,"endTime":1475.754,"body":"I know they'll take a"},{"startTime":1473.594,"endTime":1475.754,"body":"hit to the utilization."},{"startTime":1475.994,"endTime":1476.654,"body":"I don't care."},{"startTime":1476.894,"endTime":1478.004,"body":"I prefer them to do that."},{"startTime":1478.164,"endTime":1481.104,"body":"Brian you can do that, but make"},{"startTime":1478.164,"endTime":1481.104,"body":"sure they're above a certain"},{"startTime":1481.104,"endTime":1482.574,"body":"percentage , these games Yeah."},{"startTime":1482.574,"endTime":1483.624,"body":"I'm talking large businesses."},{"startTime":1483.624,"endTime":1485.784,"body":"I'm gonna create this other team"},{"startTime":1483.624,"endTime":1485.784,"body":"and they don't have to, they're"},{"startTime":1485.784,"endTime":1487.164,"body":"not judged by these metrics."},{"startTime":1487.374,"endTime":1487.494,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1487.494,"endTime":1490.774,"body":"They're kept away from these metrics"},{"startTime":1487.494,"endTime":1490.774,"body":"so , again, we go back to the Deming."},{"startTime":1490.834,"endTime":1491.554,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1491.554,"endTime":1494.704,"body":"We're going back to the Deming"},{"startTime":1491.554,"endTime":1494.704,"body":"podcast, arguing Agile 1 99."},{"startTime":1494.754,"endTime":1498.124,"body":"Because you've set up a system"},{"startTime":1494.754,"endTime":1498.124,"body":"and the system is just bad."},{"startTime":1498.214,"endTime":1499.174,"body":"It's a bad system."},{"startTime":1499.564,"endTime":1500.614,"body":"You should change that system."},{"startTime":1500.824,"endTime":1503.254,"body":"But also you're saying , well,"},{"startTime":1500.824,"endTime":1503.254,"body":"we can set up this team."},{"startTime":1503.254,"endTime":1506.894,"body":"It's outside the system and we don't"},{"startTime":1503.254,"endTime":1506.894,"body":"have to deal with all this politics."},{"startTime":1507.344,"endTime":1509.954,"body":"The reality though, is we just"},{"startTime":1507.344,"endTime":1509.954,"body":"outlined in the previous category"},{"startTime":1509.964,"endTime":1513.084,"body":"you don't have to deal with these"},{"startTime":1509.964,"endTime":1513.084,"body":"politics, but also you just said, I'm"},{"startTime":1513.084,"endTime":1516.384,"body":"going to test my innovations and your"},{"startTime":1513.084,"endTime":1516.384,"body":"team is gonna test your innovations."},{"startTime":1516.414,"endTime":1519.294,"body":"And then when we look at them together,"},{"startTime":1516.414,"endTime":1519.294,"body":"we're gonna say, I don't understand"},{"startTime":1519.294,"endTime":1521.934,"body":"why you're not bringing my innovations"},{"startTime":1519.294,"endTime":1521.934,"body":"into your roadmap and dealing with"},{"startTime":1521.934,"endTime":1523.614,"body":"it as a high priority or worse."},{"startTime":1523.614,"endTime":1527.334,"body":"When it fails, it's your stuff"},{"startTime":1523.614,"endTime":1527.334,"body":"that failed not mine so yeah."},{"startTime":1527.544,"endTime":1532.404,"body":"I implement, your changes and"},{"startTime":1527.544,"endTime":1532.404,"body":"then I don't see any advantage"},{"startTime":1532.434,"endTime":1534.324,"body":"no spike in customer usage."},{"startTime":1534.504,"endTime":1538.574,"body":"No extra money, no contract sold,"},{"startTime":1534.504,"endTime":1538.574,"body":"no nothing Hey, I thought you tested"},{"startTime":1538.574,"endTime":1540.264,"body":"this Now we're playing the blame game."},{"startTime":1540.264,"endTime":1541.074,"body":"Now we're fighting."},{"startTime":1541.294,"endTime":1544.384,"body":"Now saying, but pry if your"},{"startTime":1541.294,"endTime":1544.384,"body":"development team did a good job"},{"startTime":1544.384,"endTime":1545.854,"body":"of product in the first place."},{"startTime":1545.929,"endTime":1546.874,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1546.874,"endTime":1548.014,"body":"This, this is horrible."},{"startTime":1548.264,"endTime":1550.434,"body":"but this is actually,"},{"startTime":1548.264,"endTime":1550.434,"body":"quite prevalent out there."},{"startTime":1550.674,"endTime":1554.244,"body":"If you are working in this way with an"},{"startTime":1550.674,"endTime":1554.244,"body":"innovation team, well, this is supposed to"},{"startTime":1554.244,"endTime":1560.034,"body":"be lobbying for innovation teams to reduce"},{"startTime":1554.244,"endTime":1560.034,"body":"organizational politics around innovation."},{"startTime":1560.034,"endTime":1560.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1560.094,"endTime":1563.009,"body":"I don't, I don't know how you do that,"},{"startTime":1560.094,"endTime":1563.009,"body":"but I think actually I'm gonna award"},{"startTime":1563.009,"endTime":1566.984,"body":"a negative 110 points because I just"},{"startTime":1563.009,"endTime":1566.984,"body":"don't like the case It's terrible."},{"startTime":1567.304,"endTime":1569.014,"body":"It actually goes in"},{"startTime":1567.304,"endTime":1569.014,"body":"the opposite direction."},{"startTime":1569.284,"endTime":1574.984,"body":"Negative 110 points for outsourcing"},{"startTime":1569.284,"endTime":1574.984,"body":"innovation and plus three Scooby points."},{"startTime":1575.044,"endTime":1577.834,"body":"Scooby Doo eating Scooby snack"},{"startTime":1575.044,"endTime":1577.834,"body":"plus three Scooby snacks."},{"startTime":1577.864,"endTime":1578.344,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":1578.344,"endTime":1583.844,"body":"so another good point is probably"},{"startTime":1578.344,"endTime":1583.844,"body":"the last point for the innovation"},{"startTime":1583.844,"endTime":1585.494,"body":"outsourcing that we'll talk about today."},{"startTime":1585.794,"endTime":1589.544,"body":"They will say it bridges"},{"startTime":1585.794,"endTime":1589.544,"body":"a gap between r and d and."},{"startTime":1589.844,"endTime":1591.644,"body":"Like traditional product development."},{"startTime":1591.944,"endTime":1592.244,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1592.244,"endTime":1595.009,"body":"Like if you think about r and"},{"startTime":1592.244,"endTime":1595.009,"body":"d, like meaning like, I've gotta"},{"startTime":1595.009,"endTime":1598.309,"body":"have a specific pool of money and"},{"startTime":1595.009,"endTime":1598.309,"body":"it's, and like I've gotta dedicate"},{"startTime":1598.309,"endTime":1600.379,"body":"it to spin up something, right?"},{"startTime":1600.379,"endTime":1604.729,"body":"Like government for example, or"},{"startTime":1600.379,"endTime":1604.729,"body":"finance for example, has specific"},{"startTime":1604.789,"endTime":1607.849,"body":"terminology around what, what"},{"startTime":1604.789,"endTime":1607.849,"body":"is considered R\u0026D activity."},{"startTime":1608.149,"endTime":1612.049,"body":"Because the government can like,"},{"startTime":1608.149,"endTime":1612.049,"body":"spend money on R\u0026D activities Hey,"},{"startTime":1612.049,"endTime":1615.839,"body":"I want to go create a new fighter"},{"startTime":1612.049,"endTime":1615.839,"body":"aircraft or something like that."},{"startTime":1615.939,"endTime":1618.609,"body":"So the government is willing to,"},{"startTime":1615.939,"endTime":1618.609,"body":"to give a certain amount of money."},{"startTime":1618.789,"endTime":1622.309,"body":"They do the same thing with, with like,"},{"startTime":1618.789,"endTime":1622.309,"body":"not obviously not military technology."},{"startTime":1622.369,"endTime":1622.879,"body":"Other things."},{"startTime":1623.179,"endTime":1624.424,"body":"And companies do the same thing, right?"},{"startTime":1624.559,"endTime":1625.819,"body":"I'm gonna break off this much money."},{"startTime":1625.949,"endTime":1628.619,"body":"to develop this new, maybe"},{"startTime":1625.949,"endTime":1628.619,"body":"a new product line or a new"},{"startTime":1628.679,"endTime":1630.449,"body":"innovation or something, right?"},{"startTime":1630.629,"endTime":1632.489,"body":"New technology, doesn't matter what it is."},{"startTime":1632.539,"endTime":1635.959,"body":"So they'll say, well this bridges"},{"startTime":1632.539,"endTime":1635.959,"body":"the gap between building this"},{"startTime":1636.139,"endTime":1638.659,"body":"completely new line of business."},{"startTime":1638.929,"endTime":1639.289,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1639.529,"endTime":1643.249,"body":"Disconnected from any of our other"},{"startTime":1639.529,"endTime":1643.249,"body":"line of businesses, in reality, we"},{"startTime":1643.249,"endTime":1647.879,"body":"can argue about how disconnected it"},{"startTime":1643.249,"endTime":1647.879,"body":"really is you're not gonna jump into"},{"startTime":1647.879,"endTime":1651.699,"body":"like, I'm a FinTech company and I'm"},{"startTime":1647.879,"endTime":1651.699,"body":"gonna go start producing  Hollywood"},{"startTime":1651.699,"endTime":1653.549,"body":"movies, I don't think that's realistic."},{"startTime":1653.849,"endTime":1656.279,"body":"I think it's probably like a FinTech"},{"startTime":1653.849,"endTime":1656.279,"body":"company that also does something"},{"startTime":1656.279,"endTime":1658.959,"body":"else adjacent To the FinTech space."},{"startTime":1658.959,"endTime":1659.249,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1659.294,"endTime":1661.544,"body":"and probably leveraging a"},{"startTime":1659.294,"endTime":1661.544,"body":"lot of what they already do."},{"startTime":1661.544,"endTime":1662.144,"body":"Probably."},{"startTime":1662.149,"endTime":1662.249,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1662.254,"endTime":1665.554,"body":"the idea here is like, we have"},{"startTime":1662.254,"endTime":1665.554,"body":"these concepts and they're, they're,"},{"startTime":1665.554,"endTime":1667.894,"body":"they're born out of true r and d."},{"startTime":1668.134,"endTime":1671.664,"body":"Like, I break some people off for"},{"startTime":1668.134,"endTime":1671.664,"body":"a period of time with a run rate,"},{"startTime":1671.664,"endTime":1676.194,"body":"basically I break off a subset of"},{"startTime":1671.664,"endTime":1676.194,"body":"my company as a startup and I fund"},{"startTime":1676.194,"endTime":1677.994,"body":"them to go figure something out."},{"startTime":1678.294,"endTime":1678.774,"body":"You know that."},{"startTime":1678.774,"endTime":1682.314,"body":"So like true r and d, and then"},{"startTime":1678.774,"endTime":1682.314,"body":"at the end of that process."},{"startTime":1682.614,"endTime":1687.294,"body":"They will help advise me how to roll"},{"startTime":1682.614,"endTime":1687.294,"body":"it into my current portfolio offerings."},{"startTime":1687.504,"endTime":1689.634,"body":"So they're completely disconnected."},{"startTime":1689.764,"endTime":1691.744,"body":"they might be trying to break"},{"startTime":1689.764,"endTime":1691.744,"body":"into a different market."},{"startTime":1691.864,"endTime":1696.034,"body":"They might not be cannibalizing features"},{"startTime":1691.864,"endTime":1696.034,"body":"from other products or services They"},{"startTime":1696.034,"endTime":1698.224,"body":"might truly be exploring new boundaries."},{"startTime":1698.324,"endTime":1700.664,"body":"in that case, that makes"},{"startTime":1698.324,"endTime":1700.664,"body":"a lot of sense to me."},{"startTime":1700.964,"endTime":1701.714,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1701.714,"endTime":1703.004,"body":"It does make a lot of sense."},{"startTime":1703.029,"endTime":1705.909,"body":"I think again, it's how you"},{"startTime":1703.029,"endTime":1705.909,"body":"implement this structure, right?"},{"startTime":1706.209,"endTime":1711.249,"body":"You've got R\u0026D, they're doing things, but"},{"startTime":1706.209,"endTime":1711.249,"body":"are they also vetting the signals from"},{"startTime":1711.249,"endTime":1713.409,"body":"the customer on what they're building?"},{"startTime":1713.409,"endTime":1717.699,"body":"Or are they just building it internally"},{"startTime":1713.409,"endTime":1717.699,"body":"and then passing it to the dev team"},{"startTime":1717.699,"endTime":1719.709,"body":"and say, see how you can use this?"},{"startTime":1719.779,"endTime":1725.089,"body":"You just identified the clear"},{"startTime":1719.779,"endTime":1725.089,"body":"issue of this team is not staffed."},{"startTime":1725.389,"endTime":1731.084,"body":"Or, or, or potentially skilled to be"},{"startTime":1725.389,"endTime":1731.084,"body":"maintaining production code, right?"},{"startTime":1731.144,"endTime":1731.804,"body":"In production."},{"startTime":1731.804,"endTime":1734.764,"body":"So probably the weakest part"},{"startTime":1731.804,"endTime":1734.764,"body":"of this argument, which sounds"},{"startTime":1734.764,"endTime":1735.754,"body":"great on paper, by the way."},{"startTime":1735.754,"endTime":1735.844,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1735.844,"endTime":1735.859,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":1735.859,"endTime":1738.064,"body":"Like if I'm an accountant,"},{"startTime":1735.859,"endTime":1738.064,"body":"this sounds great."},{"startTime":1738.364,"endTime":1739.384,"body":"Easy budgeting, right?"},{"startTime":1739.384,"endTime":1739.564,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1739.564,"endTime":1741.099,"body":"Put, and the R\u0026D is this in a line item?"},{"startTime":1741.379,"endTime":1742.474,"body":"I put money in a bucket."},{"startTime":1742.474,"endTime":1744.244,"body":"This team takes it away, figures it out."},{"startTime":1744.244,"endTime":1745.354,"body":"They do amazing things."},{"startTime":1745.714,"endTime":1747.784,"body":"I can go to my tea parties or"},{"startTime":1745.714,"endTime":1747.784,"body":"whatever at the end of the year."},{"startTime":1747.834,"endTime":1749.004,"body":"I don't know why I go to tea parties."},{"startTime":1749.454,"endTime":1752.824,"body":"But in reality, , at some point, this"},{"startTime":1749.454,"endTime":1752.824,"body":"innovation team has to hand off to"},{"startTime":1752.824,"endTime":1757.484,"body":"a real team of engineers to build"},{"startTime":1752.824,"endTime":1757.484,"body":"it maintain it and scale it right?"},{"startTime":1757.784,"endTime":1762.254,"body":"Unless your organization is saying,"},{"startTime":1757.784,"endTime":1762.254,"body":"all my teams that start outside"},{"startTime":1762.314,"endTime":1767.384,"body":"of a existing product line start"},{"startTime":1762.314,"endTime":1767.384,"body":"as like seed funding teams, right?"},{"startTime":1767.384,"endTime":1769.604,"body":"And then when they launch"},{"startTime":1767.384,"endTime":1769.604,"body":"and hit new products."},{"startTime":1769.914,"endTime":1772.704,"body":"they break off and they go and"},{"startTime":1769.914,"endTime":1772.704,"body":"maintain that product and they come"},{"startTime":1772.704,"endTime":1776.484,"body":"outta the seed pool and then they"},{"startTime":1772.704,"endTime":1776.484,"body":"become a fully formed product team."},{"startTime":1776.534,"endTime":1781.984,"body":"then I staff them with  more engineers and"},{"startTime":1776.534,"endTime":1781.984,"body":"the seed accelerator type of organization"},{"startTime":1782.284,"endTime":1784.684,"body":"hires more people to launch more products."},{"startTime":1784.684,"endTime":1789.104,"body":"That, that, that it's, it's not quite"},{"startTime":1784.684,"endTime":1789.104,"body":"the situation we're talking about today."},{"startTime":1789.194,"endTime":1790.484,"body":"No, but that could work."},{"startTime":1790.514,"endTime":1795.484,"body":"And often it works in the guise of"},{"startTime":1790.514,"endTime":1795.484,"body":"establishing JDAs with other companies."},{"startTime":1795.514,"endTime":1795.694,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1795.854,"endTime":1799.504,"body":"Who potentially are maybe your"},{"startTime":1795.854,"endTime":1799.504,"body":"customers  that makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":1799.504,"endTime":1804.674,"body":"so you are actually working together in"},{"startTime":1799.504,"endTime":1804.674,"body":"the same room as reps from the customer."},{"startTime":1804.864,"endTime":1807.714,"body":"But again, that's not a model that's"},{"startTime":1804.864,"endTime":1807.714,"body":"very widely used today, I would say."},{"startTime":1807.714,"endTime":1809.844,"body":"I don't know anybody that"},{"startTime":1807.714,"endTime":1809.844,"body":"does that to be honest."},{"startTime":1809.844,"endTime":1812.154,"body":"there could even be a"},{"startTime":1809.844,"endTime":1812.154,"body":"bidding process at the end"},{"startTime":1812.154,"endTime":1812.214,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1812.514,"endTime":1817.134,"body":"The creation of technology where you"},{"startTime":1812.514,"endTime":1817.134,"body":"bid it out to sell it to companies like,"},{"startTime":1817.134,"endTime":1819.264,"body":"Hey, we did this innovation, it works."},{"startTime":1819.264,"endTime":1820.134,"body":"Here's the way it works."},{"startTime":1820.504,"endTime":1822.214,"body":"we have no intention of maintaining it."},{"startTime":1822.334,"endTime":1825.694,"body":"We're gonna sell it to somebody else.,"},{"startTime":1822.334,"endTime":1825.694,"body":"your incubation business unit could"},{"startTime":1825.694,"endTime":1827.344,"body":"basically auction off That product."},{"startTime":1827.344,"endTime":1827.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1827.434,"endTime":1829.564,"body":"they're auctioning off nascent technology."},{"startTime":1829.564,"endTime":1833.184,"body":"but at the point where I would come"},{"startTime":1829.564,"endTime":1833.184,"body":"in as a product manager with a team"},{"startTime":1833.184,"endTime":1837.234,"body":"do I have to re-architect the whole"},{"startTime":1833.184,"endTime":1837.234,"body":"thing to scale it to forget like"},{"startTime":1837.234,"endTime":1839.694,"body":"10 users, like a thousand users."},{"startTime":1839.694,"endTime":1842.784,"body":"Like I, I at the point where I have"},{"startTime":1839.694,"endTime":1842.784,"body":"to rebuild the whole architecture"},{"startTime":1842.834,"endTime":1845.234,"body":"it's almost not even worth my time."},{"startTime":1845.354,"endTime":1845.624,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1846.024,"endTime":1847.284,"body":"Maybe it is, maybe it isn't you."},{"startTime":1847.584,"endTime":1849.564,"body":"There's a lot of, it"},{"startTime":1847.584,"endTime":1849.564,"body":"depends in this category."},{"startTime":1849.564,"endTime":1849.589,"body":"Yeah, there is."},{"startTime":1849.994,"endTime":1854.154,"body":"So does it really bridge the"},{"startTime":1849.994,"endTime":1854.154,"body":"gap between true r and d and."},{"startTime":1854.574,"endTime":1855.564,"body":"Product development."},{"startTime":1855.864,"endTime":1858.679,"body":"I, I don't, I don't know if"},{"startTime":1855.864,"endTime":1858.679,"body":"any, like the foreign against"},{"startTime":1858.679,"endTime":1859.819,"body":"seeing the balance out here."},{"startTime":1859.819,"endTime":1861.529,"body":"A single point in each category."},{"startTime":1861.589,"endTime":1862.069,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":1862.229,"endTime":1862.709,"body":"one point."},{"startTime":1863.064,"endTime":1863.354,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1863.409,"endTime":1863.829,"body":"One point."},{"startTime":1863.829,"endTime":1864.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1864.069,"endTime":1865.759,"body":"Well, my pen doesn't work anymore."},{"startTime":1866.149,"endTime":1868.219,"body":"it's one point if my"},{"startTime":1866.149,"endTime":1868.219,"body":"pen actually wrote it."},{"startTime":1868.379,"endTime":1870.989,"body":"we'll figure that out later"},{"startTime":1868.379,"endTime":1870.989,"body":"a smudge for every team."},{"startTime":1871.049,"endTime":1874.149,"body":"A single smudge a pox against your house."},{"startTime":1874.399,"endTime":1875.119,"body":"let's see, what else?"},{"startTime":1875.169,"endTime":1880.789,"body":"another category is the claim that"},{"startTime":1875.169,"endTime":1880.789,"body":"this team being separate and only"},{"startTime":1880.789,"endTime":1885.709,"body":"doing innovation, actually accelerates"},{"startTime":1880.789,"endTime":1885.709,"body":"time  to market for new concepts."},{"startTime":1885.869,"endTime":1889.989,"body":"in the idea that the team doing"},{"startTime":1885.869,"endTime":1889.989,"body":"innovation can launch ideas into"},{"startTime":1890.039,"endTime":1895.139,"body":"production and have people using it"},{"startTime":1890.039,"endTime":1895.139,"body":"pretend for a second that this innovation"},{"startTime":1895.139,"endTime":1899.269,"body":"team has good knowledge of scaling"},{"startTime":1895.139,"endTime":1899.269,"body":"practices and deployment technology"},{"startTime":1899.329,"endTime":1901.279,"body":"and they can create a vertical slice."},{"startTime":1901.459,"endTime":1905.109,"body":"maybe their vertical slices all start"},{"startTime":1901.459,"endTime":1905.109,"body":"with it's gotta be integrated with our"},{"startTime":1905.259,"endTime":1907.599,"body":"authentication and deployment technology."},{"startTime":1907.719,"endTime":1907.809,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1907.809,"endTime":1910.579,"body":"If we're really using Azure for"},{"startTime":1907.809,"endTime":1910.579,"body":"authentication, you log with your"},{"startTime":1910.579,"endTime":1913.579,"body":"Microsoft account for everything, that's"},{"startTime":1910.579,"endTime":1913.579,"body":"the backbone of all our technology."},{"startTime":1913.629,"endTime":1917.359,"body":"Log in with Microsoft and then we deploy"},{"startTime":1913.629,"endTime":1917.359,"body":"you to the Azure Cloud services, . I"},{"startTime":1917.359,"endTime":1918.529,"body":"don't know what they use Kubernetes."},{"startTime":1918.559,"endTime":1919.189,"body":"I don't know what they use."},{"startTime":1919.679,"endTime":1921.299,"body":"And whatever containers as you use this."},{"startTime":1921.299,"endTime":1921.929,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":1922.239,"endTime":1926.379,"body":"So like there's a bedrock of technology"},{"startTime":1922.239,"endTime":1926.379,"body":"that my innovation team is required"},{"startTime":1926.589,"endTime":1931.679,"body":"by my engineering leads to use,"},{"startTime":1926.589,"endTime":1931.679,"body":"So they are launching full stack,"},{"startTime":1931.679,"endTime":1934.834,"body":"vertical slice working applications."},{"startTime":1934.974,"endTime":1936.794,"body":"the functionality is tiny, right?"},{"startTime":1936.974,"endTime":1937.274,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1937.334,"endTime":1937.769,"body":"So they're launching things."},{"startTime":1937.769,"endTime":1938.654,"body":"They're still valuable."},{"startTime":1938.684,"endTime":1938.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1938.864,"endTime":1939.554,"body":"they're valuable."},{"startTime":1939.554,"endTime":1941.944,"body":"They have customers that"},{"startTime":1939.554,"endTime":1941.944,"body":"sign up for the trial."},{"startTime":1942.094,"endTime":1944.514,"body":"The way I think about this is like"},{"startTime":1942.094,"endTime":1944.514,"body":"they're launching things into an"},{"startTime":1944.514,"endTime":1949.354,"body":"alpha slice it is working, it's in"},{"startTime":1944.514,"endTime":1949.354,"body":"your app it's part of your package"},{"startTime":1949.404,"endTime":1955.224,"body":"And if you want to expand on the features"},{"startTime":1949.404,"endTime":1955.224,"body":"outside of the alpha or the beta, then"},{"startTime":1955.224,"endTime":1958.374,"body":"a real product team has to take it"},{"startTime":1955.224,"endTime":1958.374,"body":"over or maybe the company has to hire"},{"startTime":1958.374,"endTime":1963.564,"body":"a whole team around it but that, that"},{"startTime":1958.374,"endTime":1963.564,"body":"initial go to market of like, how are"},{"startTime":1963.564,"endTime":1964.644,"body":"we gonna find the right customers?"},{"startTime":1964.734,"endTime":1968.424,"body":"How are we gonna launch, what order are we"},{"startTime":1964.734,"endTime":1968.424,"body":"gonna do things in This team could become"},{"startTime":1968.524,"endTime":1973.634,"body":"experts at that specialty of go to market"},{"startTime":1968.524,"endTime":1973.634,"body":"a lot of people fumble go to market."},{"startTime":1973.634,"endTime":1973.874,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1974.174,"endTime":1977.984,"body":"When you say go to market, like in"},{"startTime":1974.174,"endTime":1977.984,"body":"the agile space specifically, and you"},{"startTime":1977.984,"endTime":1980.294,"body":"say go to market, most people have"},{"startTime":1977.984,"endTime":1980.294,"body":"no idea what you're talking about."},{"startTime":1980.294,"endTime":1983.354,"body":"So in this structure where you have"},{"startTime":1980.294,"endTime":1983.354,"body":"an innovation team, because they're"},{"startTime":1983.354,"endTime":1988.264,"body":"not doing anything but innovation,"},{"startTime":1983.354,"endTime":1988.264,"body":"Then the go to market, essentially a"},{"startTime":1988.264,"endTime":1990.514,"body":"time to market is as low as it can be."},{"startTime":1990.514,"endTime":1993.814,"body":"That's a good thing As long as they're"},{"startTime":1990.514,"endTime":1993.814,"body":"speaking with customers, et cetera."},{"startTime":1993.814,"endTime":1995.434,"body":"So they're not building"},{"startTime":1993.814,"endTime":1995.434,"body":"things that nobody wants."},{"startTime":1995.434,"endTime":1996.634,"body":"if you're actually going to market."},{"startTime":1996.634,"endTime":1997.655,"body":"You absolutely would have to."},{"startTime":1997.669,"endTime":1998.509,"body":"you'd have to partner with 'em."},{"startTime":1998.509,"endTime":1999.139,"body":"that makes sense."},{"startTime":1999.139,"endTime":2001.899,"body":"This is I think, the"},{"startTime":1999.139,"endTime":2001.899,"body":"strongest point so far."},{"startTime":2002.119,"endTime":2005.759,"body":"I think a hundred points here and"},{"startTime":2002.119,"endTime":2005.759,"body":"no points against 'cause I think if"},{"startTime":2005.759,"endTime":2009.354,"body":"you do this right, I probably could"},{"startTime":2005.759,"endTime":2009.354,"body":"think of ways to mess this up, but"},{"startTime":2009.664,"endTime":2013.594,"body":"the constraints that we put on this"},{"startTime":2009.664,"endTime":2013.594,"body":"innovation team already was like, you"},{"startTime":2013.594,"endTime":2015.034,"body":"gotta use our deployment technology."},{"startTime":2015.214,"endTime":2017.944,"body":"Basically the, like the engineering"},{"startTime":2015.214,"endTime":2017.944,"body":"lead or VP or something."},{"startTime":2018.094,"endTime":2018.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2018.454,"endTime":2021.574,"body":"Came to the innovation team and"},{"startTime":2018.454,"endTime":2021.574,"body":"is like, you, you guys are cute."},{"startTime":2021.874,"endTime":2022.774,"body":"I love what you're doing."},{"startTime":2023.074,"endTime":2024.934,"body":"One day you'll be real product people."},{"startTime":2025.274,"endTime":2028.154,"body":"but until then, you gotta"},{"startTime":2025.274,"endTime":2028.154,"body":"use our authentication."},{"startTime":2028.424,"endTime":2030.254,"body":"You gotta use our deployment technology."},{"startTime":2030.259,"endTime":2032.294,"body":"These are our in-house standards."},{"startTime":2032.294,"endTime":2033.764,"body":"Our standards are non-negotiable."},{"startTime":2033.884,"endTime":2037.184,"body":"whatever you do, it's gotta"},{"startTime":2033.884,"endTime":2037.184,"body":"be a certain level of quality."},{"startTime":2037.484,"endTime":2041.384,"body":"You can't be launching garbage"},{"startTime":2037.484,"endTime":2041.384,"body":"and, and that's non-negotiable."},{"startTime":2041.694,"endTime":2046.334,"body":"adherence to internal standards is a"},{"startTime":2041.694,"endTime":2046.334,"body":"prerequisite here for this team, because"},{"startTime":2046.454,"endTime":2049.484,"body":"they could develop something in a"},{"startTime":2046.454,"endTime":2049.484,"body":"completely different stack, for example."},{"startTime":2049.514,"endTime":2052.784,"body":"it won't fit when they turn around"},{"startTime":2049.514,"endTime":2052.784,"body":"and say, Hey look, this is fantastic."},{"startTime":2052.784,"endTime":2053.624,"body":"Go put new products."},{"startTime":2053.624,"endTime":2055.724,"body":"Like yeah, no, it doesn't work that way."},{"startTime":2055.774,"endTime":2056.644,"body":"yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2056.854,"endTime":2059.374,"body":"They have to adhere to"},{"startTime":2056.854,"endTime":2059.374,"body":"internal standards for sure."},{"startTime":2059.624,"endTime":2060.944,"body":"it would help them to be honest."},{"startTime":2061.124,"endTime":2061.664,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2061.714,"endTime":2061.954,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":2061.954,"endTime":2064.834,"body":"Well, that was a little gem we"},{"startTime":2061.954,"endTime":2064.834,"body":"found I didn't expect to agree"},{"startTime":2064.834,"endTime":2066.214,"body":"with that one as much as I did."},{"startTime":2066.514,"endTime":2070.384,"body":"I assume whoever's on these innovation"},{"startTime":2066.514,"endTime":2070.384,"body":"teams, like they should be senior"},{"startTime":2070.384,"endTime":2073.054,"body":"developers compared to most of"},{"startTime":2070.384,"endTime":2073.054,"body":"the other program developers."},{"startTime":2073.264,"endTime":2076.494,"body":"Yeah there's some assumptions in this"},{"startTime":2073.264,"endTime":2076.494,"body":"podcast, but you could also rotate"},{"startTime":2076.494,"endTime":2077.694,"body":"people in and out of this team."},{"startTime":2077.789,"endTime":2078.719,"body":"Absolutely from your dev team."},{"startTime":2078.719,"endTime":2079.649,"body":"So they grow."},{"startTime":2079.649,"endTime":2081.899,"body":"And you probably should, you"},{"startTime":2079.649,"endTime":2081.899,"body":"should, you probably should."},{"startTime":2082.049,"endTime":2084.149,"body":"You probably shouldn't build a"},{"startTime":2082.049,"endTime":2084.149,"body":"scene completely from outside"},{"startTime":2084.149,"endTime":2086.969,"body":"because this is a great short term."},{"startTime":2087.119,"endTime":2089.519,"body":"Short, short meaning"},{"startTime":2087.119,"endTime":2089.519,"body":"like six months, right?"},{"startTime":2089.519,"endTime":2089.759,"body":"Media."},{"startTime":2089.764,"endTime":2089.969,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2089.969,"endTime":2094.649,"body":"This is a great short term thing"},{"startTime":2089.969,"endTime":2094.649,"body":"to reinvigorate your developers to"},{"startTime":2094.649,"endTime":2097.169,"body":"let them remember why they got into"},{"startTime":2094.649,"endTime":2097.169,"body":"development in the first place."},{"startTime":2097.169,"endTime":2101.159,"body":"To play with cool technology and to"},{"startTime":2097.169,"endTime":2101.159,"body":"do cool things, to talk to people and"},{"startTime":2101.159,"endTime":2103.079,"body":"to figure out oh, I can solve that."},{"startTime":2103.079,"endTime":2105.719,"body":"We have a couple points that we"},{"startTime":2103.079,"endTime":2105.719,"body":"need to specifically talk about"},{"startTime":2105.769,"endTime":2107.719,"body":"that are like pushback on this."},{"startTime":2108.049,"endTime":2114.179,"body":"One of which is it perpetuates building"},{"startTime":2108.049,"endTime":2114.179,"body":"flashy demos like an innovation theater"},{"startTime":2114.179,"endTime":2116.279,"body":"like the old Marty Cagan product theater."},{"startTime":2116.359,"endTime":2118.489,"body":"Except in the bad form of it Sure is."},{"startTime":2118.489,"endTime":2124.209,"body":"Like, it's the illusion of innovation,"},{"startTime":2118.489,"endTime":2124.209,"body":"but in actuality no customers have"},{"startTime":2124.209,"endTime":2125.649,"body":"ever said they wanted to use it."},{"startTime":2125.919,"endTime":2127.509,"body":"Nobody ever said that"},{"startTime":2125.919,"endTime":2127.509,"body":"was their pain point."},{"startTime":2127.689,"endTime":2129.039,"body":"You don't know if you can sell it."},{"startTime":2129.219,"endTime":2130.539,"body":"You don't know if it'll scale."},{"startTime":2130.569,"endTime":2132.569,"body":"all of these things Fit in this category."},{"startTime":2132.869,"endTime":2133.829,"body":"Absolutely agree."},{"startTime":2134.129,"endTime":2134.219,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":2134.269,"endTime":2135.379,"body":"is that the end of the category?"},{"startTime":2135.409,"endTime":2135.679,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2135.679,"endTime":2137.359,"body":"Well, there's only that"},{"startTime":2135.679,"endTime":2137.359,"body":"one we talked about."},{"startTime":2137.389,"endTime":2139.069,"body":", the scale we touched on earlier, right?"},{"startTime":2139.069,"endTime":2139.549,"body":"We did, yeah."},{"startTime":2139.579,"endTime":2141.544,"body":"Struggling to transition to scale."},{"startTime":2141.594,"endTime":2142.434,"body":"So it's the same thing."},{"startTime":2142.434,"endTime":2144.594,"body":"It's like someone's gonna bring"},{"startTime":2142.434,"endTime":2144.594,"body":"me and be like, oh, I think when"},{"startTime":2144.594,"endTime":2147.924,"body":"I use the same data that's in your"},{"startTime":2144.594,"endTime":2147.924,"body":"application, but I use it in this"},{"startTime":2147.924,"endTime":2149.424,"body":"other way, it looks , more attractive."},{"startTime":2149.634,"endTime":2151.764,"body":"Well, why don't we just do"},{"startTime":2149.634,"endTime":2151.764,"body":"that in a normal application?"},{"startTime":2151.794,"endTime":2152.904,"body":"Like why don't we need to, exactly."},{"startTime":2152.904,"endTime":2152.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2152.994,"endTime":2154.254,"body":"Separate that out like that."},{"startTime":2154.534,"endTime":2159.364,"body":"if it doesn't get us any more additional"},{"startTime":2154.534,"endTime":2159.364,"body":"money from customers, I don't know,"},{"startTime":2159.414,"endTime":2163.314,"body":"There's still, in the back of my head in"},{"startTime":2159.414,"endTime":2163.314,"body":"this whole conversation, there's a need to"},{"startTime":2163.314,"endTime":2165.204,"body":"justify the cost of this innovation team."},{"startTime":2165.654,"endTime":2169.224,"body":"In the back of my head, maybe some"},{"startTime":2165.654,"endTime":2169.224,"body":"companies that's not necessary."},{"startTime":2169.224,"endTime":2171.684,"body":"Maybe some companies like the need to."},{"startTime":2171.984,"endTime":2176.634,"body":"Identify new and interesting,"},{"startTime":2171.984,"endTime":2176.634,"body":"different ways to potentially"},{"startTime":2176.634,"endTime":2179.064,"body":"monetize the application that"},{"startTime":2176.634,"endTime":2179.064,"body":"maybe we're not thinking of."},{"startTime":2179.364,"endTime":2182.214,"body":"Maybe that in and of itself is"},{"startTime":2179.364,"endTime":2182.214,"body":"strategic enough where they're"},{"startTime":2182.214,"endTime":2186.384,"body":"willing to spend the money of whatever"},{"startTime":2182.214,"endTime":2186.384,"body":"the salaries of this team costs."},{"startTime":2186.534,"endTime":2186.684,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2187.074,"endTime":2187.884,"body":"To do that."},{"startTime":2188.184,"endTime":2189.924,"body":"Like it is, it is like rolling the dice."},{"startTime":2190.104,"endTime":2194.424,"body":"It's like, listen you know, if you"},{"startTime":2190.104,"endTime":2194.424,"body":"go to Vegas how much money to  roll"},{"startTime":2194.424,"endTime":2197.004,"body":"the dice to get a million dollars,"},{"startTime":2194.424,"endTime":2197.004,"body":"like how much money are you willing"},{"startTime":2197.004,"endTime":2201.594,"body":"to bet for each roll of the dice"},{"startTime":2197.004,"endTime":2201.594,"body":"to get that million dollar chance?"},{"startTime":2201.744,"endTime":2205.574,"body":"That's this category right now"},{"startTime":2201.744,"endTime":2205.574,"body":"to take that analogy further,"},{"startTime":2205.784,"endTime":2207.074,"body":"you know who wins there, right?"},{"startTime":2207.284,"endTime":2210.574,"body":"Look at all those big buildings,"},{"startTime":2207.284,"endTime":2210.574,"body":"the casinos, so I think the same"},{"startTime":2210.574,"endTime":2214.934,"body":"thing applies here, with businesses"},{"startTime":2210.574,"endTime":2214.934,"body":"over the longer term, the number"},{"startTime":2214.934,"endTime":2216.404,"body":"of times you rolled that dice."},{"startTime":2216.704,"endTime":2218.954,"body":"It's gonna come up seven at at least once."},{"startTime":2219.034,"endTime":2221.704,"body":"whatever that financial impact could be"},{"startTime":2219.034,"endTime":2221.704,"body":"leveraged over a longer period of time."},{"startTime":2221.704,"endTime":2221.944,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2221.944,"endTime":2225.544,"body":"It's just like capitalizing assets"},{"startTime":2221.944,"endTime":2225.544,"body":"there's a certain number of roles that"},{"startTime":2225.544,"endTime":2230.194,"body":"you will make that, that, that, that"},{"startTime":2225.544,"endTime":2230.194,"body":"you will budget to make and the cost of"},{"startTime":2230.194,"endTime":2234.454,"body":"this team, or more than one team over"},{"startTime":2230.194,"endTime":2234.454,"body":"a period of time fills in this number."},{"startTime":2234.724,"endTime":2237.214,"body":"So how much money do you wanna"},{"startTime":2234.724,"endTime":2237.214,"body":"spend to try to get ahead?"},{"startTime":2237.304,"endTime":2237.574,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2237.574,"endTime":2239.784,"body":"And then that's one side of the equation."},{"startTime":2239.784,"endTime":2242.604,"body":"The other side of the equation is"},{"startTime":2239.784,"endTime":2242.604,"body":"can you show me that you actually did"},{"startTime":2242.604,"endTime":2247.664,"body":"get ahead and that's not necessarily"},{"startTime":2242.604,"endTime":2247.664,"body":"ROI that I'm asking for where are the"},{"startTime":2247.664,"endTime":2252.004,"body":"breakthroughs that, the normal product"},{"startTime":2247.664,"endTime":2252.004,"body":"teams couldn't have made by themselves,"},{"startTime":2252.034,"endTime":2254.734,"body":"show me the places that the product"},{"startTime":2252.034,"endTime":2254.734,"body":"teams just move forward on their own"},{"startTime":2254.784,"endTime":2258.584,"body":"I want to see both of them every team"},{"startTime":2254.784,"endTime":2258.584,"body":"should be saying, this is where we"},{"startTime":2258.584,"endTime":2263.234,"body":"move forward with our own kind of BFI"},{"startTime":2258.584,"endTime":2263.234,"body":"ability, product discovery type efforts."},{"startTime":2263.294,"endTime":2264.644,"body":"Every team should have that anyway."},{"startTime":2264.944,"endTime":2268.814,"body":"show me where another team handed"},{"startTime":2264.944,"endTime":2268.814,"body":"me the innovation opportunity"},{"startTime":2269.024,"endTime":2272.054,"body":"that they had pre-vetted for me,"},{"startTime":2269.024,"endTime":2272.054,"body":"that I couldn't have done myself."},{"startTime":2272.364,"endTime":2273.684,"body":"Maybe like that."},{"startTime":2273.684,"endTime":2276.994,"body":"that's the part where I was hoping"},{"startTime":2273.684,"endTime":2276.994,"body":"you wouldn't break that out."},{"startTime":2277.294,"endTime":2281.864,"body":"Because, you could have done that yourself"},{"startTime":2277.294,"endTime":2281.864,"body":"if corporate, rather than going to this"},{"startTime":2281.864,"endTime":2285.224,"body":"other team would've just come to the"},{"startTime":2281.864,"endTime":2285.224,"body":"team doing the work in the first place."},{"startTime":2285.224,"endTime":2290.114,"body":"All my arguments break down when let's say"},{"startTime":2285.224,"endTime":2290.114,"body":"the innovation team, each individual fully"},{"startTime":2290.114,"endTime":2293.894,"body":"loaded with benefits and everything let's"},{"startTime":2290.114,"endTime":2293.894,"body":"say they cost like $250,000 per person."},{"startTime":2294.014,"endTime":2294.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2294.194,"endTime":2296.264,"body":"So you got four people on the team, right?"},{"startTime":2296.444,"endTime":2299.294,"body":"Product manager, three developer,"},{"startTime":2296.444,"endTime":2299.294,"body":"product manager, ui, ux,"},{"startTime":2299.294,"endTime":2301.214,"body":"person, two developers, right?"},{"startTime":2301.274,"endTime":2304.154,"body":"A senior developer and a normal"},{"startTime":2301.274,"endTime":2304.154,"body":"developer each fully loaded"},{"startTime":2304.154,"endTime":2305.114,"body":"with benefits and everything."},{"startTime":2305.444,"endTime":2308.159,"body":"Let's call it $250,000 per"},{"startTime":2305.444,"endTime":2308.159,"body":"person, a million dollars."},{"startTime":2308.339,"endTime":2309.689,"body":"Four people, a million dollars."},{"startTime":2309.969,"endTime":2312.219,"body":"You're spending a million"},{"startTime":2309.969,"endTime":2312.219,"body":"dollars a year to push the"},{"startTime":2312.219,"endTime":2313.899,"body":"boundaries of innovation, right?"},{"startTime":2313.899,"endTime":2317.199,"body":"and what you just pointed out, like I"},{"startTime":2313.899,"endTime":2317.199,"body":"don't think I'm gonna get away from it in"},{"startTime":2317.319,"endTime":2321.669,"body":"any category we've talked about is like,"},{"startTime":2317.319,"endTime":2321.669,"body":"why don't you just take that money and"},{"startTime":2321.849,"endTime":2326.319,"body":"give it to the individual teams to say,"},{"startTime":2321.849,"endTime":2326.319,"body":"Hey, I'm giving you additional money."},{"startTime":2326.669,"endTime":2329.759,"body":"You have your margin that you run"},{"startTime":2326.669,"endTime":2329.759,"body":"your business or your product on."},{"startTime":2330.059,"endTime":2333.539,"body":"the business is gonna inject"},{"startTime":2330.059,"endTime":2333.539,"body":"some money into your margin."},{"startTime":2333.719,"endTime":2335.124,"body":"Make your margin look a little bit better."},{"startTime":2335.624,"endTime":2339.004,"body":"And what I want from giving you this"},{"startTime":2335.624,"endTime":2339.004,"body":"money, is when you come back to the"},{"startTime":2339.004,"endTime":2342.664,"body":"corporate strategy, the quarterly"},{"startTime":2339.004,"endTime":2342.664,"body":"planning type of events, show me"},{"startTime":2342.904,"endTime":2346.624,"body":"which innovation strategy you're"},{"startTime":2342.904,"endTime":2346.624,"body":"picking over another, show me which"},{"startTime":2346.654,"endTime":2351.634,"body":"exploratory technology you've tried and"},{"startTime":2346.654,"endTime":2351.634,"body":"which one you've picked over another."},{"startTime":2351.634,"endTime":2351.694,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2351.904,"endTime":2352.954,"body":"And that's what I'm funding."},{"startTime":2352.954,"endTime":2357.214,"body":". I'm buying some time on your roadmap to"},{"startTime":2352.954,"endTime":2357.214,"body":"figure out what the next innovation is."},{"startTime":2357.404,"endTime":2358.544,"body":"that's it, that's what I'm buying."},{"startTime":2358.754,"endTime":2363.404,"body":"And, the most impactful pushback against"},{"startTime":2358.754,"endTime":2363.404,"body":"that is like we got enough features"},{"startTime":2363.404,"endTime":2366.074,"body":"and enough new innovations that we've"},{"startTime":2363.404,"endTime":2366.074,"body":"already baked in the roadmap where we're"},{"startTime":2366.074,"endTime":2367.364,"body":"like, we don't need the extra money."},{"startTime":2367.464,"endTime":2370.444,"body":"We're too busy to do exactly what"},{"startTime":2367.464,"endTime":2370.444,"body":"we need to do now that sounds to"},{"startTime":2370.444,"endTime":2372.004,"body":"me like we're too busy to improve."},{"startTime":2372.004,"endTime":2373.204,"body":"That's what it sounds like."},{"startTime":2373.294,"endTime":2374.254,"body":"It sounds like that."},{"startTime":2374.284,"endTime":2377.524,"body":"It can actually come down like that, but"},{"startTime":2374.284,"endTime":2377.524,"body":"if you're giving me a million dollars,"},{"startTime":2377.524,"endTime":2379.154,"body":"I can hire a couple of people maybe."},{"startTime":2379.204,"endTime":2383.904,"body":"So in the other scenario where you"},{"startTime":2379.204,"endTime":2383.904,"body":"are funding a separate innovation team"},{"startTime":2384.204,"endTime":2388.254,"body":"that you get away with for a bit until"},{"startTime":2384.204,"endTime":2388.254,"body":"there's a change in leadership, which"},{"startTime":2388.254,"endTime":2389.694,"body":"let's face it, it's quite frequent."},{"startTime":2389.724,"endTime":2389.964,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2390.034,"endTime":2394.484,"body":"And then you get somebody new and they"},{"startTime":2390.034,"endTime":2394.484,"body":"form a Department of Corporate Efficiency."},{"startTime":2394.564,"endTime":2398.164,"body":"And then they send a memo out saying"},{"startTime":2394.564,"endTime":2398.164,"body":"list 10 things you've done last week."},{"startTime":2398.434,"endTime":2400.534,"body":"And off goes this innovation team."},{"startTime":2400.584,"endTime":2404.274,"body":"when that happens you lose all that"},{"startTime":2400.584,"endTime":2404.274,"body":"domain knowledge that these people"},{"startTime":2404.274,"endTime":2405.594,"body":"have acquired, pushing the boundaries."},{"startTime":2405.774,"endTime":2406.884,"body":"It's suddenly gone."},{"startTime":2406.944,"endTime":2407.304,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2407.304,"endTime":2407.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2407.574,"endTime":2410.154,"body":"And, well, the organization"},{"startTime":2407.574,"endTime":2410.154,"body":"will suffer badly."},{"startTime":2410.224,"endTime":2414.694,"body":"I feel that like the, the four"},{"startTime":2410.224,"endTime":2414.694,"body":"outsourcing to innovation I, I don't"},{"startTime":2414.694,"endTime":2417.694,"body":"feel they've picked up any points in"},{"startTime":2414.694,"endTime":2417.694,"body":"this category at this point, sadly."},{"startTime":2417.754,"endTime":2421.024,"body":"And I feel the against"},{"startTime":2417.754,"endTime":2421.024,"body":"has picked up 25 apples."},{"startTime":2421.024,"endTime":2421.594,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2421.594,"endTime":2422.889,"body":"25 apples."},{"startTime":2423.189,"endTime":2426.459,"body":"I wanted to award that one a a"},{"startTime":2423.189,"endTime":2426.459,"body":"bit more fairly, it sounds like"},{"startTime":2426.459,"endTime":2429.009,"body":"it's too easy to do it wrong."},{"startTime":2429.399,"endTime":2432.149,"body":"Like a lot of points we talked about in"},{"startTime":2429.399,"endTime":2432.149,"body":"that category, they sound like they would"},{"startTime":2432.149,"endTime":2436.929,"body":"be really cool especially the idea of"},{"startTime":2432.149,"endTime":2436.929,"body":"funding as a vehicle to punch you ahead."},{"startTime":2437.079,"endTime":2439.929,"body":"That's really what all everything"},{"startTime":2437.079,"endTime":2439.929,"body":"we're talking about here comes"},{"startTime":2439.929,"endTime":2441.699,"body":"back down if you strip it all away."},{"startTime":2441.999,"endTime":2445.359,"body":"It's about I need an investment, right?"},{"startTime":2445.659,"endTime":2449.439,"body":"To punch me ahead so you can give"},{"startTime":2445.659,"endTime":2449.439,"body":"that investment and coordinate"},{"startTime":2449.439,"endTime":2452.379,"body":"it off to this other team and"},{"startTime":2449.439,"endTime":2452.379,"body":"make it somebody else's job."},{"startTime":2452.799,"endTime":2455.559,"body":"Or you just give it to the team"},{"startTime":2452.799,"endTime":2455.559,"body":"and be like, oh, you know what?"},{"startTime":2455.889,"endTime":2460.359,"body":"How about we'll hire a data scientist"},{"startTime":2455.889,"endTime":2460.359,"body":"or we'll hire another ui ux person or"},{"startTime":2460.359,"endTime":2461.859,"body":"whatever to conduct more user interviews."},{"startTime":2461.909,"endTime":2467.539,"body":"So one thing it does, if you do that is"},{"startTime":2461.909,"endTime":2467.539,"body":"it makes it easy to attribute the success"},{"startTime":2467.839,"endTime":2470.599,"body":"that results from that to the team."},{"startTime":2470.929,"endTime":2474.079,"body":"Whereas in the other scenario where"},{"startTime":2470.929,"endTime":2474.079,"body":"you have an innovation team, how do"},{"startTime":2474.079,"endTime":2478.379,"body":"you attribute a portion of the success"},{"startTime":2474.079,"endTime":2478.379,"body":"to them that doesn't make sense?"},{"startTime":2478.599,"endTime":2483.089,"body":"there's no easy equation that says we went"},{"startTime":2478.599,"endTime":2483.089,"body":"to market with this, led by this team."},{"startTime":2483.089,"endTime":2485.129,"body":"So , how do you attribute that to them?"},{"startTime":2485.429,"endTime":2488.459,"body":"Because the DEV teams will say,"},{"startTime":2485.429,"endTime":2488.459,"body":"well, we did the work, right?"},{"startTime":2488.519,"endTime":2488.999,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":2488.999,"endTime":2491.099,"body":"It's easier if the DEV"},{"startTime":2488.999,"endTime":2491.099,"body":"team's doing everything."},{"startTime":2491.399,"endTime":2493.379,"body":"Let's cut straight to the spiciest."},{"startTime":2493.729,"endTime":2494.329,"body":"argument."},{"startTime":2494.519,"endTime":2500.969,"body":"I want to make, which is, it sounds"},{"startTime":2494.519,"endTime":2500.969,"body":"like you've introduced a handoff in"},{"startTime":2500.969,"endTime":2505.629,"body":"between when the innovation is done and"},{"startTime":2500.969,"endTime":2505.629,"body":"when the product development begins."},{"startTime":2505.939,"endTime":2508.519,"body":"it sounds like you're like, oh,"},{"startTime":2505.939,"endTime":2508.519,"body":"I did all of the innovation over"},{"startTime":2508.519,"endTime":2511.459,"body":"here on this side of the diamond,"},{"startTime":2508.519,"endTime":2511.459,"body":"and then I did all the development."},{"startTime":2511.619,"endTime":2514.559,"body":"The discovery was all done over here,"},{"startTime":2511.619,"endTime":2514.559,"body":"and development was all done over here."},{"startTime":2514.679,"endTime":2516.359,"body":"We talked about this"},{"startTime":2514.679,"endTime":2516.359,"body":"earlier in the podcast."},{"startTime":2516.409,"endTime":2520.589,"body":"But I wanna make a point in this"},{"startTime":2516.409,"endTime":2520.589,"body":"category to say you're transferring"},{"startTime":2520.589,"endTime":2524.519,"body":"knowledge and ownership of the feature"},{"startTime":2520.589,"endTime":2524.519,"body":"and all the learnings and everything."},{"startTime":2524.759,"endTime":2526.469,"body":"Theoretically, you're transferring them."},{"startTime":2526.559,"endTime":2530.309,"body":"In reality, you don't really transfer"},{"startTime":2526.559,"endTime":2530.309,"body":"them the people that are implementing"},{"startTime":2530.309,"endTime":2533.309,"body":"it should be the ones who have the"},{"startTime":2530.309,"endTime":2533.309,"body":"learning and should be the ones"},{"startTime":2533.309,"endTime":2534.479,"body":"who've been involved the whole time."},{"startTime":2534.824,"endTime":2537.769,"body":"But with this setup, I"},{"startTime":2534.824,"endTime":2537.769,"body":"doubt that very much."},{"startTime":2537.844,"endTime":2538.804,"body":"And also."},{"startTime":2539.194,"endTime":2544.534,"body":"And also also also double also, this is my"},{"startTime":2539.194,"endTime":2544.534,"body":"second also with a handoff, like the team"},{"startTime":2544.534,"endTime":2548.644,"body":"that implemented the original like, oh,"},{"startTime":2544.534,"endTime":2548.644,"body":"I think this is viable for the business."},{"startTime":2548.914,"endTime":2551.914,"body":"And they put together this prototype"},{"startTime":2548.914,"endTime":2551.914,"body":"or click clickable wire frames where"},{"startTime":2551.914,"endTime":2555.844,"body":"they put together, like they don't"},{"startTime":2551.914,"endTime":2555.844,"body":"have to maintain it full time forever."},{"startTime":2555.894,"endTime":2557.604,"body":"they don't have to be up in"},{"startTime":2555.894,"endTime":2557.604,"body":"the middle of the night at all."},{"startTime":2557.604,"endTime":2561.714,"body":"their decision that this was a good"},{"startTime":2557.604,"endTime":2561.714,"body":"idea is completely divorced from"},{"startTime":2561.714,"endTime":2563.814,"body":"Reality I believe in, if you build it."},{"startTime":2564.114,"endTime":2564.954,"body":"You should own it."},{"startTime":2565.254,"endTime":2568.044,"body":"You are not gonna get any argument"},{"startTime":2565.254,"endTime":2568.044,"body":"from me against that, unfortunately,"},{"startTime":2568.044,"endTime":2569.874,"body":"because that is exactly the issue."},{"startTime":2569.994,"endTime":2573.444,"body":"People that are creating these"},{"startTime":2569.994,"endTime":2573.444,"body":"prototypes aren't necessarily"},{"startTime":2573.444,"endTime":2576.954,"body":"considering some of those ilities"},{"startTime":2573.444,"endTime":2576.954,"body":"like scalability, et cetera, right?"},{"startTime":2577.054,"endTime":2581.584,"body":"they don't care about that because"},{"startTime":2577.054,"endTime":2581.584,"body":"they focus is on just getting it"},{"startTime":2581.584,"endTime":2583.774,"body":"to work, and do those flashy demos."},{"startTime":2584.114,"endTime":2585.224,"body":"So yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2585.284,"endTime":2589.694,"body":"They also don't build in"},{"startTime":2585.284,"endTime":2589.694,"body":"considerations for maintenance, right?"},{"startTime":2589.694,"endTime":2591.164,"body":"Long-term maintenance of the product."},{"startTime":2591.164,"endTime":2591.974,"body":"It's longevity."},{"startTime":2591.974,"endTime":2594.534,"body":"They don't consider that the"},{"startTime":2591.974,"endTime":2594.534,"body":"dev team has to live with it."},{"startTime":2594.834,"endTime":2598.624,"body":"Well, . Because of that, I'm gonna award"},{"startTime":2594.834,"endTime":2598.624,"body":"outsourcing innovation to another team."},{"startTime":2598.834,"endTime":2603.764,"body":"I'm gonna award it a negative 10"},{"startTime":2598.834,"endTime":2603.764,"body":"ilities and against uh, outsourcing."},{"startTime":2604.109,"endTime":2606.539,"body":"Plus 10 ilities cool."},{"startTime":2606.569,"endTime":2608.939,"body":"So there's a mix of ilities"},{"startTime":2606.569,"endTime":2608.939,"body":"happening right now."},{"startTime":2609.149,"endTime":2609.659,"body":"Awesome!"},{"startTime":2609.664,"endTime":2612.274,"body":"There's a silos discussion"},{"startTime":2609.664,"endTime":2612.274,"body":"that's happening here that"},{"startTime":2612.274,"endTime":2613.294,"body":"we are not talking about."},{"startTime":2613.294,"endTime":2616.954,"body":"Like, because we probably talk about"},{"startTime":2613.294,"endTime":2616.954,"body":"silos too often, but that's kind of"},{"startTime":2616.954,"endTime":2619.924,"body":"what's happening here you're building"},{"startTime":2616.954,"endTime":2619.924,"body":"silos, but all the innovation happens"},{"startTime":2619.924,"endTime":2621.394,"body":"over here in this side of the diamond."},{"startTime":2621.514,"endTime":2621.604,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2621.604,"endTime":2625.184,"body":"And all the development happens,"},{"startTime":2621.604,"endTime":2625.184,"body":"like all the grunt work happens."},{"startTime":2625.364,"endTime":2630.474,"body":"I'll just tell you what to build how"},{"startTime":2625.364,"endTime":2630.474,"body":"long until that innovation team devolves"},{"startTime":2630.474,"endTime":2634.814,"body":"into just one VP who just tells us,"},{"startTime":2630.474,"endTime":2634.814,"body":"oh, I talked to the customer once."},{"startTime":2634.914,"endTime":2636.864,"body":"who doesn't have any interviewing skills?"},{"startTime":2636.864,"endTime":2638.754,"body":"Who doesn't have any"},{"startTime":2636.864,"endTime":2638.754,"body":"business analysis skills?"},{"startTime":2638.804,"endTime":2641.444,"body":"you're on a super slippery slope here."},{"startTime":2641.824,"endTime":2644.224,"body":"that's aside from the categories we"},{"startTime":2641.824,"endTime":2644.224,"body":"didn't talk about today like, what"},{"startTime":2644.224,"endTime":2648.034,"body":"if your innovation team is suggesting"},{"startTime":2644.224,"endTime":2648.034,"body":"things that are completely duplicative"},{"startTime":2648.124,"endTime":2649.414,"body":"of features you have already?"},{"startTime":2649.414,"endTime":2651.724,"body":"that is a real danger if"},{"startTime":2649.414,"endTime":2651.724,"body":"they're not communicating well."},{"startTime":2651.724,"endTime":2651.964,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2651.964,"endTime":2651.965,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2651.97,"endTime":2654.634,"body":"So you're gonna have two separate"},{"startTime":2651.97,"endTime":2654.634,"body":"solutions being built in parallel"},{"startTime":2654.634,"endTime":2657.784,"body":"or their level of expertise,"},{"startTime":2654.634,"endTime":2657.784,"body":"Because they might just not know."},{"startTime":2657.834,"endTime":2660.174,"body":"there's domain expertise and"},{"startTime":2657.834,"endTime":2660.174,"body":"there's technical expertise."},{"startTime":2660.174,"endTime":2663.734,"body":"So unless they're gonna become"},{"startTime":2660.174,"endTime":2663.734,"body":"technical experts in your software"},{"startTime":2663.734,"endTime":2667.594,"body":"and your infrastructure and also in"},{"startTime":2663.734,"endTime":2667.594,"body":"your business, they could be missing"},{"startTime":2667.594,"endTime":2668.524,"body":"some stuff when they're building."},{"startTime":2668.854,"endTime":2670.234,"body":"Oh, we'll build this new product."},{"startTime":2670.364,"endTime":2675.254,"body":"it's like if you could have all of"},{"startTime":2670.364,"endTime":2675.254,"body":"your CSV material, but in a grid, I'm"},{"startTime":2675.254,"endTime":2677.984,"body":"like, guys, that's, Microsoft Excel."},{"startTime":2678.194,"endTime":2679.064,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":2679.244,"endTime":2680.504,"body":"We didn't know that."},{"startTime":2680.534,"endTime":2681.569,"body":"We just spent six months."},{"startTime":2682.019,"endTime":2685.709,"body":"Creating this grid-based editor, come on."},{"startTime":2685.714,"endTime":2686.309,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":2686.459,"endTime":2690.119,"body":"Well this is another argument for"},{"startTime":2686.459,"endTime":2690.119,"body":"having your team members circulate"},{"startTime":2690.119,"endTime":2692.129,"body":"between those two teams, right?"},{"startTime":2692.129,"endTime":2693.059,"body":"Yeah, that would make sense."},{"startTime":2693.114,"endTime":2695.394,"body":"I mean, it's a solid"},{"startTime":2693.114,"endTime":2695.394,"body":"against argument though."},{"startTime":2695.694,"endTime":2696.144,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":2696.144,"endTime":2699.714,"body":"well, it's a solid against argument,"},{"startTime":2696.144,"endTime":2699.714,"body":"so I'll award another 10 points"},{"startTime":2699.744,"endTime":2701.754,"body":"in against, and zero points for."},{"startTime":2701.994,"endTime":2705.854,"body":"So let's do a quick tallying of"},{"startTime":2701.994,"endTime":2705.854,"body":"all the points for this podcast."},{"startTime":2706.014,"endTime":2709.014,"body":"Come Mr. Talley, man telling me bananas."},{"startTime":2709.364,"endTime":2710.174,"body":"It's complicated."},{"startTime":2710.354,"endTime":2712.904,"body":"Actually, the four outsourcing"},{"startTime":2710.354,"endTime":2712.904,"body":"side actually had a bunch of"},{"startTime":2712.904,"endTime":2714.314,"body":"points, believe it or not."},{"startTime":2714.504,"endTime":2716.274,"body":"Alright, I calculated, all the points."},{"startTime":2716.274,"endTime":2720.664,"body":"It looks like the four outsourcing"},{"startTime":2716.274,"endTime":2720.664,"body":"innovation  got 190 points,"},{"startTime":2720.754,"endTime":2723.304,"body":"but it got minus 10 ilities."},{"startTime":2723.664,"endTime":2725.614,"body":"So that's a serious condemnation."},{"startTime":2725.734,"endTime":2726.274,"body":"Yes, it is."},{"startTime":2726.384,"endTime":2727.104,"body":"Big penalty there."},{"startTime":2727.159,"endTime":2731.399,"body":"And then the against outsourcing, which I"},{"startTime":2727.159,"endTime":2731.399,"body":"don't know about my record keeping, but it"},{"startTime":2731.399,"endTime":2737.519,"body":"got 121 points, significantly less points,"},{"startTime":2731.399,"endTime":2737.519,"body":"but then it also got a plus 10 iiti."},{"startTime":2737.609,"endTime":2738.659,"body":"Oh, they clearly win."},{"startTime":2738.709,"endTime":2742.909,"body":"So that's enough to clench the"},{"startTime":2738.709,"endTime":2742.909,"body":"category alone, even if it wasn't"},{"startTime":2742.909,"endTime":2744.239,"body":"for the monkeys  or the bananas."},{"startTime":2744.269,"endTime":2744.959,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2744.964,"endTime":2746.564,"body":"Hey I think , the points are clear."},{"startTime":2746.624,"endTime":2750.564,"body":"You should do innovation as part of"},{"startTime":2746.624,"endTime":2750.564,"body":"your normal product management teams."},{"startTime":2750.934,"endTime":2752.434,"body":"it shouldn't be someone else's job."},{"startTime":2752.439,"endTime":2752.799,"body":"It's your job."},{"startTime":2752.899,"endTime":2756.649,"body":"If you build it, you own it, and You"},{"startTime":2752.899,"endTime":2756.649,"body":"innovate it, you build it, and you run it."},{"startTime":2756.809,"endTime":2759.339,"body":"Thank you for staying with us"},{"startTime":2756.809,"endTime":2759.339,"body":"and let us know what you think"},{"startTime":2759.339,"endTime":2762.609,"body":"about the content today and what"},{"startTime":2759.339,"endTime":2762.609,"body":"else you'd like us to tackle."},{"startTime":2762.979,"endTime":2765.409,"body":"And don't forget like,"},{"startTime":2762.979,"endTime":2765.409,"body":"and subscribe down below."}]}