{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.15,"endTime":1.529,"body":"Om,  I wanna paint"},{"startTime":0.15,"endTime":1.529,"body":"a picture for you."},{"startTime":1.56,"endTime":2.58,"body":"You're working in a company."},{"startTime":2.7,"endTime":4.639,"body":"Someone comes up to you and"},{"startTime":2.7,"endTime":4.639,"body":"says, the engineering team,"},{"startTime":4.639,"endTime":5.689,"body":"they're working too slow."},{"startTime":5.84,"endTime":7.31,"body":"We need them to go faster."},{"startTime":7.61,"endTime":9.829,"body":"if I had a buck for every"},{"startTime":7.61,"endTime":9.829,"body":"time I've heard that, . It"},{"startTime":10.099,"endTime":11.929,"body":"tempted to just say, well"},{"startTime":10.099,"endTime":11.929,"body":"just whip 'em harder."},{"startTime":12.01,"endTime":12.52,"body":"Oh, no."},{"startTime":16.612,"endTime":17.002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":17.002,"endTime":17.752,"body":"So faster."},{"startTime":18.083,"endTime":19.192,"body":"for what purpose?"},{"startTime":19.192,"endTime":21.043,"body":"what are you trying"},{"startTime":19.192,"endTime":21.043,"body":"to get out of this?"},{"startTime":21.122,"endTime":24.633,"body":"I'd start there and say, why"},{"startTime":21.122,"endTime":24.633,"body":"is this a pain point for me?"},{"startTime":24.633,"endTime":25.107,"body":"More, for less."},{"startTime":25.137,"endTime":25.708,"body":"More is better."},{"startTime":25.857,"endTime":26.552,"body":"More is better."},{"startTime":26.552,"endTime":27.662,"body":"Supersize everything."},{"startTime":27.772,"endTime":28.552,"body":"I saw what you 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tank."},{"startTime":151.682,"endTime":154.922,"body":"So we did argue manager"},{"startTime":151.682,"endTime":154.922,"body":"180 5, what companies do"},{"startTime":154.922,"endTime":157.232,"body":"instead of strategy to cover."},{"startTime":157.282,"endTime":158.242,"body":"What we're talking about now."},{"startTime":158.272,"endTime":158.572,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":158.572,"endTime":160.863,"body":"Which was the working title"},{"startTime":158.572,"endTime":160.863,"body":"of this podcast, by the"},{"startTime":160.863,"endTime":162.392,"body":"way, was The Goal Mirage."},{"startTime":162.442,"endTime":165.303,"body":"I still think the podcast should"},{"startTime":162.442,"endTime":165.303,"body":"have been called the Goal Mirage"},{"startTime":165.373,"endTime":167.683,"body":"So,  let's look at some of"},{"startTime":165.373,"endTime":167.683,"body":"the chapters like growth"},{"startTime":167.683,"endTime":170.563,"body":"is second Growth Five Ys"},{"startTime":167.683,"endTime":170.563,"body":"of why we need to Grow."},{"startTime":170.968,"endTime":173.267,"body":"Good strategy, bad strategy,"},{"startTime":170.968,"endTime":173.267,"body":"looking at the book, there's"},{"startTime":173.267,"endTime":174.647,"body":"a lot in this podcast."},{"startTime":174.647,"endTime":176.507,"body":"And I think the relevant"},{"startTime":174.647,"endTime":176.507,"body":"one might be the blame game"},{"startTime":176.507,"endTime":178.937,"body":"in software development"},{"startTime":176.507,"endTime":178.937,"body":"because everybody else,"},{"startTime":178.997,"endTime":181.577,"body":"other than engineering are"},{"startTime":178.997,"endTime":181.577,"body":"saying You're too slow."},{"startTime":181.877,"endTime":183.887,"body":"So they're blaming"},{"startTime":181.877,"endTime":183.887,"body":"engineering at this point."},{"startTime":184.187,"endTime":186.688,"body":"So we have that as a chapter"},{"startTime":184.187,"endTime":186.688,"body":"in that same podcast."},{"startTime":186.988,"endTime":189.238,"body":"there's another one"},{"startTime":186.988,"endTime":189.238,"body":"that I wanna find."},{"startTime":189.348,"endTime":191.448,"body":"It was argument Agile"},{"startTime":189.348,"endTime":191.448,"body":"1 0 3 challenges to"},{"startTime":191.448,"endTime":193.048,"body":"building product roadmaps."},{"startTime":193.478,"endTime":194.978,"body":"challenges to building"},{"startTime":193.478,"endTime":194.978,"body":"a product roadmap."},{"startTime":195.068,"endTime":196.597,"body":"why a single product roadmap?"},{"startTime":196.607,"endTime":197.927,"body":"Well, if you're having"},{"startTime":196.607,"endTime":197.927,"body":"trouble with one, you're"},{"startTime":197.927,"endTime":198.677,"body":"gonna have trouble with many."},{"startTime":198.732,"endTime":199.062,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":199.062,"endTime":201.822,"body":"But in this one, we had"},{"startTime":199.062,"endTime":201.822,"body":"the pyramid where we gave"},{"startTime":201.822,"endTime":204.173,"body":"you some tactical advice"},{"startTime":201.822,"endTime":204.173,"body":"with the pyramid that your"},{"startTime":204.173,"endTime":206.183,"body":"mission and vision are at the"},{"startTime":204.173,"endTime":206.183,"body":"base levels of the pyramid."},{"startTime":206.183,"endTime":207.683,"body":"They're what everything"},{"startTime":206.183,"endTime":207.683,"body":"else relies on, right?"},{"startTime":207.683,"endTime":208.823,"body":"That's why they're"},{"startTime":207.683,"endTime":208.823,"body":"at the base level."},{"startTime":208.883,"endTime":211.893,"body":"And then , your strategies"},{"startTime":208.883,"endTime":211.893,"body":"in the middle, the goals"},{"startTime":211.893,"endTime":213.963,"body":"that come from the strategy,"},{"startTime":211.893,"endTime":213.963,"body":"how you're going to advance"},{"startTime":213.963,"endTime":216.573,"body":"the strategy, come above"},{"startTime":213.963,"endTime":216.573,"body":"that, , what are your goals?"},{"startTime":216.763,"endTime":218.443,"body":"do you even have a"},{"startTime":216.763,"endTime":218.443,"body":"strategy down on paper?"},{"startTime":218.823,"endTime":221.783,"body":"And I feel at that point, like"},{"startTime":218.823,"endTime":221.783,"body":"most companies are, they're out."},{"startTime":221.783,"endTime":222.143,"body":"They're out."},{"startTime":222.143,"endTime":222.203,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":222.353,"endTime":223.913,"body":"Like, you're not even, even"},{"startTime":222.353,"endTime":223.913,"body":"get, you're not even gonna"},{"startTime":223.913,"endTime":226.313,"body":"get to the roadmap portion"},{"startTime":223.913,"endTime":226.313,"body":"at the top that's actually"},{"startTime":226.313,"endTime":228.453,"body":"prioritizing and stuff"},{"startTime":226.313,"endTime":228.453,"body":"because , the middle layer, the"},{"startTime":228.453,"endTime":229.713,"body":"strategy is already missing."},{"startTime":229.833,"endTime":230.043,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":230.043,"endTime":232.503,"body":"And most companies by this"},{"startTime":230.043,"endTime":232.503,"body":"stage, we'll just gravitate"},{"startTime":232.503,"endTime":233.893,"body":"to, add more bodies."},{"startTime":233.923,"endTime":236.608,"body":"Right, and they don't get"},{"startTime":233.923,"endTime":236.608,"body":"there adding more bodies."},{"startTime":236.908,"endTime":238.258,"body":"obviously you wanna"},{"startTime":236.908,"endTime":238.258,"body":"have a strategy."},{"startTime":238.288,"endTime":241.838,"body":"I mean I personally think"},{"startTime":238.288,"endTime":241.838,"body":"that we're pointing it"},{"startTime":241.958,"endTime":244.278,"body":"product management and"},{"startTime":241.958,"endTime":244.278,"body":"or , if your company's like"},{"startTime":244.278,"endTime":246.108,"body":"small, you don't have a"},{"startTime":244.278,"endTime":246.108,"body":"product management function."},{"startTime":246.438,"endTime":248.328,"body":"This is the leaders"},{"startTime":246.438,"endTime":248.328,"body":"of the business Yeah."},{"startTime":248.378,"endTime":251.458,"body":"That you're pointing towards But"},{"startTime":248.378,"endTime":251.458,"body":"if you're engineering and don't"},{"startTime":251.458,"endTime":254.158,"body":"have strong product management"},{"startTime":251.458,"endTime":254.158,"body":"in, I mean, you can always."},{"startTime":254.458,"endTime":259.138,"body":"Say like, there's no OKRs, that"},{"startTime":254.458,"endTime":259.138,"body":"this work ties back to no value."},{"startTime":259.138,"endTime":261.988,"body":"No value document or strategy"},{"startTime":259.138,"endTime":261.988,"body":"document or anything."},{"startTime":261.988,"endTime":265.418,"body":"This work ties back to, and"},{"startTime":261.988,"endTime":265.418,"body":"then you'll get told like, why"},{"startTime":265.418,"endTime":266.498,"body":"are you questioning me, Brian?"},{"startTime":266.648,"endTime":267.458,"body":"Get outta my office."},{"startTime":267.458,"endTime":269.018,"body":"Just get back to work"},{"startTime":267.458,"endTime":269.018,"body":"hands on keyboards."},{"startTime":269.318,"endTime":270.043,"body":"Sadly, That's true."},{"startTime":270.143,"endTime":271.628,"body":"But if you don't have"},{"startTime":270.143,"endTime":271.628,"body":"that though, right?"},{"startTime":271.628,"endTime":275.308,"body":"If you don't have something"},{"startTime":271.628,"endTime":275.308,"body":"that the engineering team can"},{"startTime":275.398,"endTime":277.318,"body":"align to, how do you know that?"},{"startTime":277.318,"endTime":280.198,"body":"How do they know that what"},{"startTime":277.318,"endTime":280.198,"body":"they're doing is contributing"},{"startTime":280.198,"endTime":283.558,"body":"directly to those objectives as"},{"startTime":280.198,"endTime":283.558,"body":"opposed to doing something else?"},{"startTime":283.708,"endTime":285.868,"body":"Building something that's"},{"startTime":283.708,"endTime":285.868,"body":"cool, but it's not really"},{"startTime":285.928,"endTime":288.598,"body":"contributing towards your"},{"startTime":285.928,"endTime":288.598,"body":"objectives and furthering them."},{"startTime":288.898,"endTime":290.038,"body":"They have to know that."},{"startTime":290.458,"endTime":292.648,"body":"They have to see those, they"},{"startTime":290.458,"endTime":292.648,"body":"have to understand those."},{"startTime":293.033,"endTime":294.022,"body":"And they have to be visible."},{"startTime":294.022,"endTime":295.883,"body":"So, , at all times you"},{"startTime":294.022,"endTime":295.883,"body":"could say whatever you"},{"startTime":295.883,"endTime":298.193,"body":"are working on should be"},{"startTime":295.883,"endTime":298.193,"body":"furthering us,  towards"},{"startTime":298.193,"endTime":299.363,"body":"our goals and objectives."},{"startTime":299.482,"endTime":301.642,"body":"If you don't have them"},{"startTime":299.482,"endTime":301.642,"body":"start there, , even if you"},{"startTime":301.642,"endTime":303.262,"body":"don't have strong product"},{"startTime":301.642,"endTime":303.262,"body":"management that stuff can"},{"startTime":303.262,"endTime":304.823,"body":"be written into tickets"},{"startTime":304.872,"endTime":304.962,"body":"sure."},{"startTime":304.962,"endTime":305.982,"body":"I mean, all should be linked."},{"startTime":305.982,"endTime":307.782,"body":"Everyone's got an a LM tool."},{"startTime":307.812,"endTime":307.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":307.932,"endTime":308.142,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":308.193,"endTime":311.043,"body":"They all, they're all terrible,"},{"startTime":308.193,"endTime":311.043,"body":"but they all have 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be."},{"startTime":328.897,"endTime":332.627,"body":"Some level of risk onto yourself"},{"startTime":328.897,"endTime":332.627,"body":"To ask why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":332.627,"endTime":336.407,"body":"When it's not clear who it's"},{"startTime":332.627,"endTime":336.407,"body":"for or What impact it'll have,"},{"startTime":336.837,"endTime":340.288,"body":"but also, , this is what makes"},{"startTime":336.837,"endTime":340.288,"body":"seniors of developers and stuff"},{"startTime":340.288,"endTime":342.638,"body":"like that, you're always asking"},{"startTime":340.288,"endTime":342.638,"body":"what's the value of this thing?"},{"startTime":342.638,"endTime":343.898,"body":"How does it connect"},{"startTime":342.638,"endTime":343.898,"body":"to the business?"},{"startTime":344.018,"endTime":344.138,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":344.138,"endTime":345.428,"body":"You're looking for"},{"startTime":344.138,"endTime":345.428,"body":"those 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observer"},{"startTime":385.073,"endTime":387.643,"body":"is , man, traffic looks"},{"startTime":387.643,"endTime":388.723,"body":"really heavy today."},{"startTime":388.782,"endTime":390.133,"body":"Like from the side of the road."},{"startTime":390.183,"endTime":390.693,"body":"Not driving."},{"startTime":390.753,"endTime":392.973,"body":"Or is this someone"},{"startTime":390.753,"endTime":392.973,"body":"with actual evidence?"},{"startTime":393.243,"endTime":395.433,"body":"Basically , is the cadence"},{"startTime":393.243,"endTime":395.433,"body":"of your engineering"},{"startTime":395.912,"endTime":398.343,"body":"output predictable or not?"},{"startTime":398.642,"endTime":403.712,"body":"maybe somebody's just reacting"},{"startTime":398.642,"endTime":403.712,"body":"to a point in time datum, right?"},{"startTime":403.712,"endTime":404.522,"body":"They're just looking at it."},{"startTime":404.562,"endTime":406.182,"body":"We need to go faster,"},{"startTime":404.562,"endTime":406.182,"body":"we need to do more."},{"startTime":406.632,"endTime":409.002,"body":"But they need to look"},{"startTime":406.632,"endTime":409.002,"body":"at a trend, first of"},{"startTime":409.002,"endTime":409.782,"body":"all, to your point."},{"startTime":409.782,"endTime":413.202,"body":"and if your teams are  doing"},{"startTime":409.782,"endTime":413.202,"body":"things properly, not by"},{"startTime":413.202,"endTime":413.982,"body":"the book, by the way."},{"startTime":413.982,"endTime":414.912,"body":"Every team's unique."},{"startTime":415.092,"endTime":417.912,"body":"So if they're doing things"},{"startTime":415.092,"endTime":417.912,"body":"properly, they would have more"},{"startTime":417.912,"endTime":419.742,"body":"or less a sustainable pace."},{"startTime":419.922,"endTime":420.912,"body":"All things being equal."},{"startTime":421.182,"endTime":424.932,"body":"And if you look at that average"},{"startTime":421.182,"endTime":424.932,"body":"and say, okay,, this is how"},{"startTime":424.932,"endTime":426.432,"body":"we've been pulling so far."},{"startTime":426.732,"endTime":428.862,"body":"You need to go faster than this."},{"startTime":428.952,"endTime":429.972,"body":"Let's understand why."},{"startTime":430.092,"endTime":431.352,"body":"And there are things you can do."},{"startTime":431.382,"endTime":433.902,"body":"If there's legit business"},{"startTime":431.382,"endTime":433.902,"body":"reasons to go faster."},{"startTime":433.952,"endTime":434.792,"body":"there are things you can do."},{"startTime":434.822,"endTime":437.312,"body":"Maybe you can split the"},{"startTime":434.822,"endTime":437.312,"body":"workup differently, spin"},{"startTime":437.312,"endTime":438.782,"body":"up another team, right?"},{"startTime":439.052,"endTime":441.572,"body":"Not necessarily adding bodies"},{"startTime":439.052,"endTime":441.572,"body":"to an existing team, right?"},{"startTime":441.872,"endTime":443.912,"body":"There are other things"},{"startTime":441.872,"endTime":443.912,"body":"you can do, reprioritize."},{"startTime":443.912,"endTime":445.892,"body":"Faster might mean there's"},{"startTime":443.912,"endTime":445.892,"body":"something driving that."},{"startTime":445.922,"endTime":448.892,"body":"Like you have to get something"},{"startTime":445.922,"endTime":448.892,"body":"ready by point in time."},{"startTime":449.042,"endTime":452.342,"body":"There's a regulatory deadline"},{"startTime":449.042,"endTime":452.342,"body":"or a conference that this"},{"startTime":452.342,"endTime":455.522,"body":"feature has to be, you"},{"startTime":452.342,"endTime":455.522,"body":"know, shown at, right?"},{"startTime":455.762,"endTime":459.762,"body":"Whatever those things are, you"},{"startTime":455.762,"endTime":459.762,"body":"can pivot and adjust so that"},{"startTime":459.762,"endTime":461.682,"body":"you can satisfy that need."},{"startTime":461.982,"endTime":465.282,"body":"But that said, what you're"},{"startTime":461.982,"endTime":465.282,"body":"not doing is permanently"},{"startTime":465.282,"endTime":467.352,"body":"guaranteeing that faster clip."},{"startTime":467.352,"endTime":467.682,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":467.732,"endTime":469.922,"body":"that would be the business"},{"startTime":467.732,"endTime":469.922,"body":"person's pushback why"},{"startTime":470.002,"endTime":472.732,"body":"I don't see that hockey"},{"startTime":470.002,"endTime":472.732,"body":"stick,, sprint over sprint."},{"startTime":472.732,"endTime":475.312,"body":"Why are we not increasing"},{"startTime":472.732,"endTime":475.312,"body":"our velocity like that?"},{"startTime":475.312,"endTime":477.502,"body":"I was trying not to"},{"startTime":475.312,"endTime":477.502,"body":"make that call out."},{"startTime":477.532,"endTime":479.902,"body":"'cause it's like I immediately"},{"startTime":477.532,"endTime":479.902,"body":"know I'm in the wrong, and"},{"startTime":479.902,"endTime":482.132,"body":"that's not, defensible but"},{"startTime":479.902,"endTime":482.132,"body":"let's pretend you got , one"},{"startTime":482.132,"endTime":484.142,"body":"of these Stanford MBAs"},{"startTime":482.132,"endTime":484.142,"body":"you're working for, and"},{"startTime":484.142,"endTime":486.342,"body":"they actually understand,"},{"startTime":484.142,"endTime":486.342,"body":"throughput and cycle time."},{"startTime":486.392,"endTime":488.712,"body":"They're gonna say, oh, , I've"},{"startTime":486.392,"endTime":488.712,"body":"noticed that quarter over"},{"startTime":488.712,"endTime":492.162,"body":"quarter our cycle time is not"},{"startTime":488.712,"endTime":492.162,"body":"really getting any better,"},{"startTime":492.192,"endTime":495.392,"body":", it's getting marginally"},{"startTime":492.192,"endTime":495.392,"body":"worse, but not a lot, but just"},{"startTime":495.392,"endTime":497.972,"body":"like we seem to be slowing"},{"startTime":495.392,"endTime":497.972,"body":"a little bit, we definitely"},{"startTime":497.972,"endTime":500.222,"body":"seem to have plateaued with"},{"startTime":497.972,"endTime":500.222,"body":"regard to improving our"},{"startTime":500.222,"endTime":503.132,"body":"cycle time and our throughput"},{"startTime":500.222,"endTime":503.132,"body":"in the last two quarters."},{"startTime":503.372,"endTime":506.402,"body":"they're asking you questions"},{"startTime":503.372,"endTime":506.402,"body":"that factually are true."},{"startTime":506.702,"endTime":510.912,"body":"And they're doing it in"},{"startTime":506.702,"endTime":510.912,"body":"a way to justify I need"},{"startTime":510.972,"endTime":514.332,"body":"developers to be putting"},{"startTime":510.972,"endTime":514.332,"body":"out more features faster,"},{"startTime":514.632,"endTime":516.642,"body":"but I don't wanna spend more"},{"startTime":514.632,"endTime":516.642,"body":"money to spend up more teams."},{"startTime":516.647,"endTime":516.877,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":517.177,"endTime":517.387,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":517.387,"endTime":519.457,"body":"I mean, they've probably"},{"startTime":517.387,"endTime":519.457,"body":"at that point, if they're"},{"startTime":519.457,"endTime":522.817,"body":"looking at a wide enough"},{"startTime":519.457,"endTime":522.817,"body":"timeframe, reached a plateau"},{"startTime":522.847,"endTime":526.987,"body":"where the team has reached"},{"startTime":522.847,"endTime":526.987,"body":"its natural, , cadence, right?"},{"startTime":526.987,"endTime":528.307,"body":"This is what they can do."},{"startTime":528.637,"endTime":529.807,"body":"This team has been together."},{"startTime":529.807,"endTime":532.057,"body":"Let's assume for a while,"},{"startTime":529.807,"endTime":532.057,"body":"and you are, where you are."},{"startTime":532.267,"endTime":534.547,"body":"You can't just keep asking"},{"startTime":532.267,"endTime":534.547,"body":"for more and more , they"},{"startTime":534.547,"endTime":537.157,"body":"can ask, but I was like,"},{"startTime":534.547,"endTime":537.157,"body":"slow down Silicon Valley."},{"startTime":537.207,"endTime":537.867,"body":". You can ask."},{"startTime":538.117,"endTime":540.747,"body":"But, , you can only stretch"},{"startTime":538.117,"endTime":540.747,"body":"the elastic band so far."},{"startTime":540.777,"endTime":543.507,"body":"at some point it's"},{"startTime":540.777,"endTime":543.507,"body":"going to give, right."},{"startTime":543.807,"endTime":547.227,"body":"People are gonna get tired of"},{"startTime":543.807,"endTime":547.227,"body":"this and you lose good people."},{"startTime":547.537,"endTime":548.137,"body":"They'll leave."},{"startTime":548.317,"endTime":549.517,"body":"or they'll just break down."},{"startTime":549.517,"endTime":551.917,"body":"there are a few shops here"},{"startTime":549.517,"endTime":551.917,"body":"in town known for being"},{"startTime":551.917,"endTime":554.587,"body":"grind houses no matter how"},{"startTime":551.917,"endTime":554.587,"body":"fast or good the thing is."},{"startTime":554.767,"endTime":556.357,"body":"More, more, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":556.567,"endTime":558.457,"body":"Well, there are some"},{"startTime":556.567,"endTime":558.457,"body":"dysfunctions in the"},{"startTime":558.457,"endTime":560.757,"body":"organization as a whole,"},{"startTime":558.457,"endTime":560.757,"body":"perhaps, You could look at"},{"startTime":560.757,"endTime":562.167,"body":"where this is emanating from."},{"startTime":562.167,"endTime":567.067,"body":"Maybe people are promising dates"},{"startTime":562.167,"endTime":567.067,"body":"without, any basis behind it."},{"startTime":567.067,"endTime":569.737,"body":"So they're saying, we need to"},{"startTime":567.067,"endTime":569.737,"body":"get this done and we need to"},{"startTime":569.737,"endTime":572.287,"body":"go faster because my date's"},{"startTime":569.737,"endTime":572.287,"body":"approaching and you're not"},{"startTime":572.287,"endTime":574.117,"body":"delivering to what I need."},{"startTime":574.267,"endTime":576.487,"body":"The right thing to do there"},{"startTime":574.267,"endTime":576.487,"body":"is not necessarily just"},{"startTime":576.487,"endTime":579.697,"body":"simply say, how can we"},{"startTime":576.487,"endTime":579.697,"body":"meet that date short term?"},{"startTime":579.697,"endTime":582.667,"body":"Maybe you do that once,"},{"startTime":579.697,"endTime":582.667,"body":"but I would look to"},{"startTime":582.697,"endTime":583.777,"body":"change that behavior."},{"startTime":583.837,"endTime":585.697,"body":". Why are you promising"},{"startTime":583.837,"endTime":585.697,"body":"dates like that?"},{"startTime":585.887,"endTime":587.477,"body":"where's the scope on all this?"},{"startTime":587.477,"endTime":590.597,"body":"we can make any date you want,"},{"startTime":587.477,"endTime":590.597,"body":"but the scope has to flex."},{"startTime":590.897,"endTime":591.047,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":591.047,"endTime":593.267,"body":"So for the purpose of"},{"startTime":591.047,"endTime":593.267,"body":"scoring in these categories."},{"startTime":593.317,"endTime":596.287,"body":"in the four category, we're"},{"startTime":593.317,"endTime":596.287,"body":"gonna use a worker revolt."},{"startTime":596.387,"endTime":598.457,"body":"And in the against"},{"startTime":596.387,"endTime":598.457,"body":"category, we're gonna use"},{"startTime":598.457,"endTime":600.287,"body":"a dystopian crackdown."},{"startTime":600.587,"endTime":603.647,"body":"I gotta tell you, I'm a big"},{"startTime":600.587,"endTime":603.647,"body":"favor of dystopian crackdowns."},{"startTime":603.927,"endTime":606.922,"body":"The benefit of this category"},{"startTime":603.927,"endTime":606.922,"body":"is you are asking the"},{"startTime":606.922,"endTime":609.022,"body":"right question when you're"},{"startTime":606.922,"endTime":609.022,"body":"saying Hey, I understand"},{"startTime":609.022,"endTime":609.772,"body":"you wanna go faster."},{"startTime":610.142,"endTime":613.612,"body":"But can we agree to say,"},{"startTime":610.142,"endTime":613.612,"body":"are we working at a stable"},{"startTime":613.612,"endTime":614.842,"body":"and sustainable pace?"},{"startTime":615.142,"endTime":617.032,"body":"And the answer might be, yes."},{"startTime":617.362,"endTime":618.892,"body":"Point over here for"},{"startTime":617.362,"endTime":618.892,"body":"the worker revolt."},{"startTime":619.182,"endTime":622.262,"body":"The answer might be yes,"},{"startTime":619.182,"endTime":622.262,"body":"but I don't care because the"},{"startTime":622.262,"endTime":624.962,"body":"business is declining, we're"},{"startTime":622.262,"endTime":624.962,"body":"on track to run outta money"},{"startTime":625.292,"endTime":626.522,"body":", the business has problems."},{"startTime":626.573,"endTime":627.022,"body":"Basically."},{"startTime":627.113,"endTime":627.323,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":627.338,"endTime":631.048,"body":"And I'm not absolving to say"},{"startTime":627.338,"endTime":631.048,"body":"engineering has no part in"},{"startTime":631.048,"endTime":634.438,"body":"helping the business resolve"},{"startTime":631.048,"endTime":634.438,"body":"its business problems."},{"startTime":634.737,"endTime":639.588,"body":"But I have seen businesses run"},{"startTime":634.737,"endTime":639.588,"body":"by poor management where it"},{"startTime":639.588,"endTime":642.608,"body":"doesn't matter how fast you're"},{"startTime":639.588,"endTime":642.608,"body":"gonna go, , the question here,"},{"startTime":642.663,"endTime":644.523,"body":"the real flippant question"},{"startTime":642.663,"endTime":644.523,"body":"that's not gonna win you any"},{"startTime":644.523,"endTime":648.813,"body":"friends, is how fast do we"},{"startTime":644.523,"endTime":648.813,"body":"need to go to make you happy?"},{"startTime":649.053,"endTime":650.778,"body":"And I guarantee you, there's"},{"startTime":649.053,"endTime":650.778,"body":"no answer to that question."},{"startTime":650.778,"endTime":651.378,"body":"There's no answer."},{"startTime":651.513,"endTime":652.893,"body":"Faster is the only answer."},{"startTime":652.933,"endTime":653.743,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":653.803,"endTime":654.523,"body":"Unfortunately."},{"startTime":654.613,"endTime":654.853,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":655.313,"endTime":657.983,"body":"on the dystopian crackdown"},{"startTime":655.313,"endTime":657.983,"body":"side, I'm gonna award"},{"startTime":657.983,"endTime":659.423,"body":"a one therapy session."},{"startTime":659.773,"endTime":661.853,"body":"Alright, so let's move"},{"startTime":659.773,"endTime":661.853,"body":"on to the next category."},{"startTime":661.933,"endTime":664.813,"body":"a sub note on this category."},{"startTime":665.113,"endTime":669.423,"body":"It's an addendum to this"},{"startTime":665.113,"endTime":669.423,"body":"category of reducing cycle"},{"startTime":669.423,"endTime":671.583,"body":"time, lead time variability."},{"startTime":671.673,"endTime":671.763,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":671.763,"endTime":675.183,"body":"But we're talking about , the"},{"startTime":671.763,"endTime":675.183,"body":"lean manufacturing essentials"},{"startTime":675.183,"endTime":676.733,"body":"of batch size and flow."},{"startTime":677.033,"endTime":678.863,"body":"We'll probably get into this"},{"startTime":677.033,"endTime":678.863,"body":"a little bit when we talk"},{"startTime":678.863,"endTime":681.593,"body":"about product management"},{"startTime":678.863,"endTime":681.593,"body":"and their role in all this."},{"startTime":681.623,"endTime":685.063,"body":"product management has a"},{"startTime":681.623,"endTime":685.063,"body":"lot of influence on the"},{"startTime":685.163,"endTime":686.333,"body":"batch size going into it."},{"startTime":686.333,"endTime":688.863,"body":"if you're always handing"},{"startTime":686.333,"endTime":688.863,"body":"your developers Hey, I"},{"startTime":688.863,"endTime":693.363,"body":"need this new report engine"},{"startTime":688.863,"endTime":693.363,"body":"built and I need 15 banana"},{"startTime":693.363,"endTime":696.222,"body":"reports , where Yeah, you could"},{"startTime":693.363,"endTime":696.222,"body":"be 15 different dimensions"},{"startTime":696.222,"endTime":697.332,"body":"of how we count bananas."},{"startTime":697.572,"endTime":699.102,"body":"And that's all one story."},{"startTime":699.162,"endTime":703.062,"body":"engineering can't just take that"},{"startTime":699.162,"endTime":703.062,"body":"and say yes sir, right away."},{"startTime":703.062,"endTime":703.752,"body":"Coming right up."},{"startTime":703.762,"endTime":705.823,"body":", the example I gave was a"},{"startTime":703.762,"endTime":705.823,"body":"little flippant 'cause it's"},{"startTime":705.823,"endTime":707.652,"body":"loaded just to show you"},{"startTime":705.823,"endTime":707.652,"body":"but your point's valid."},{"startTime":707.732,"endTime":711.513,"body":", when it comes to your system"},{"startTime":707.732,"endTime":711.513,"body":"your company and your software"},{"startTime":711.513,"endTime":714.542,"body":"features, you'll get this"},{"startTime":711.513,"endTime":714.542,"body":"type of thing all the time."},{"startTime":714.602,"endTime":716.402,"body":"The team is not sure"},{"startTime":714.602,"endTime":716.402,"body":"how to break things"},{"startTime":716.402,"endTime":718.112,"body":"down to be predictable."},{"startTime":718.412,"endTime":721.753,"body":"The team doesn't understand"},{"startTime":718.412,"endTime":721.753,"body":"Making things similar sizes"},{"startTime":721.753,"endTime":722.863,"body":"when it comes to refinement."},{"startTime":722.863,"endTime":724.243,"body":"Maybe the team doesn't"},{"startTime":722.863,"endTime":724.243,"body":"understand that."},{"startTime":724.243,"endTime":726.703,"body":"I actually, more than one team"},{"startTime":724.243,"endTime":726.703,"body":"I've been with, they don't"},{"startTime":726.703,"endTime":729.013,"body":"understand the difference"},{"startTime":726.703,"endTime":729.013,"body":"between a refinement session"},{"startTime":729.343,"endTime":730.152,"body":"and a sprint planning."},{"startTime":730.303,"endTime":732.942,"body":"Like using Scrum, they're"},{"startTime":730.303,"endTime":732.942,"body":"like, well, these sessions"},{"startTime":732.942,"endTime":733.692,"body":"look the same to me."},{"startTime":733.902,"endTime":736.063,"body":"Yeah, well a lot of the same"},{"startTime":733.902,"endTime":736.063,"body":"people are in both, right?"},{"startTime":736.113,"endTime":736.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":736.322,"endTime":738.262,"body":"So they didn't understand,"},{"startTime":736.322,"endTime":738.262,"body":"you know 'cause to them"},{"startTime":738.262,"endTime":739.163,"body":"it all seems the same."},{"startTime":739.463,"endTime":741.992,"body":"I think the concept of"},{"startTime":739.463,"endTime":741.992,"body":"flow is critical here on"},{"startTime":741.992,"endTime":743.163,"body":"this underlying discussion."},{"startTime":743.163,"endTime":746.488,"body":"I mean, the larger the bat"},{"startTime":743.163,"endTime":746.488,"body":"size, the slower the flow,"},{"startTime":746.698,"endTime":747.748,"body":"if I can put it that way."},{"startTime":747.748,"endTime":748.078,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":748.318,"endTime":751.978,"body":"So if the team understands that"},{"startTime":748.318,"endTime":751.978,"body":"and the team isn't just the"},{"startTime":751.978,"endTime":755.188,"body":"dev team here, 'cause they may"},{"startTime":751.978,"endTime":755.188,"body":"understand it, but maybe other"},{"startTime":755.188,"endTime":756.598,"body":"people don't in the company."},{"startTime":756.728,"endTime":758.178,"body":"Sales product folks, et cetera."},{"startTime":758.358,"endTime":760.848,"body":"If everybody understands"},{"startTime":758.358,"endTime":760.848,"body":"that, then I think there'll"},{"startTime":760.848,"endTime":762.288,"body":"be a concerted effort to say."},{"startTime":762.573,"endTime":766.653,"body":"Let's establish a decent"},{"startTime":762.573,"endTime":766.653,"body":"flow by reducing the"},{"startTime":766.653,"endTime":770.133,"body":"bat size and deliver in"},{"startTime":766.653,"endTime":770.133,"body":"incremental fashion, right?"},{"startTime":770.403,"endTime":772.503,"body":"Rather than deliver"},{"startTime":770.403,"endTime":772.503,"body":"a feature at a time."},{"startTime":772.503,"endTime":774.613,"body":"And these features could"},{"startTime":772.503,"endTime":774.613,"body":"be quite large with"},{"startTime":774.613,"endTime":775.903,"body":"multiple things in it."},{"startTime":776.203,"endTime":779.363,"body":"I'm always coaching teams and"},{"startTime":776.203,"endTime":779.363,"body":"product, to say, when you have a"},{"startTime":779.363,"endTime":783.533,"body":"description of something and if"},{"startTime":779.363,"endTime":783.533,"body":"there's a conjugation in there,"},{"startTime":783.653,"endTime":786.143,"body":"that's a prime candidate for"},{"startTime":783.653,"endTime":786.143,"body":"splitting right there, right."},{"startTime":786.383,"endTime":787.253,"body":"Split the feature."},{"startTime":787.553,"endTime":787.883,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":787.883,"endTime":791.603,"body":"I mean, it, it does help"},{"startTime":787.883,"endTime":791.603,"body":"having some method to, to"},{"startTime":791.903,"endTime":796.943,"body":"show the business the value of"},{"startTime":791.903,"endTime":796.943,"body":"being able to release things."},{"startTime":797.243,"endTime":798.083,"body":"In small batches."},{"startTime":798.383,"endTime":800.213,"body":"There was another podcast"},{"startTime":798.383,"endTime":800.213,"body":"where I told a story where"},{"startTime":800.213,"endTime":802.923,"body":"a developer was questioning"},{"startTime":800.213,"endTime":802.923,"body":"like, if all these things"},{"startTime":802.923,"endTime":805.623,"body":"need to be done, like these,"},{"startTime":802.923,"endTime":805.623,"body":"six stories need to be done."},{"startTime":805.968,"endTime":809.448,"body":"Before the user has agreed"},{"startTime":805.968,"endTime":809.448,"body":"to change their behavior and"},{"startTime":809.448,"endTime":811.728,"body":"start using this process rather"},{"startTime":809.448,"endTime":811.728,"body":"than their current process"},{"startTime":811.728,"endTime":814.418,"body":"or some other vendor tool and"},{"startTime":811.728,"endTime":814.418,"body":"flip over to use our tool."},{"startTime":814.468,"endTime":816.688,"body":"why would we release"},{"startTime":814.468,"endTime":816.688,"body":"at all in increments?"},{"startTime":816.688,"endTime":819.268,"body":"Why not just hold them all until"},{"startTime":816.688,"endTime":819.268,"body":"they're all ready and then go"},{"startTime":819.268,"endTime":821.758,"body":"to the user and say, Hey, it's"},{"startTime":819.268,"endTime":821.758,"body":"time for you to flip over."},{"startTime":822.028,"endTime":822.268,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":822.268,"endTime":824.307,"body":"and, in following that"},{"startTime":822.268,"endTime":824.307,"body":"line of thinking, you are"},{"startTime":824.698,"endTime":827.607,"body":"prone to basically saying"},{"startTime":824.698,"endTime":827.607,"body":"to the user, we'll let"},{"startTime":827.607,"endTime":829.462,"body":"you know when something's"},{"startTime":827.607,"endTime":829.462,"body":"ready for you to see."},{"startTime":829.512,"endTime":831.042,"body":". And it'll be weeks, months."},{"startTime":831.402,"endTime":834.582,"body":"And we find ourselves in"},{"startTime":831.402,"endTime":834.582,"body":"that spot that we've known"},{"startTime":834.582,"endTime":836.142,"body":"for years now, decades."},{"startTime":836.482,"endTime":837.702,"body":"in Waterfall voila."},{"startTime":837.702,"endTime":838.812,"body":"Here you go, customer."},{"startTime":838.812,"endTime":840.882,"body":"And they go, that's"},{"startTime":838.812,"endTime":840.882,"body":"not what we wanted."},{"startTime":840.887,"endTime":842.692,"body":"Right, in the old days"},{"startTime":840.887,"endTime":842.692,"body":"we would jump up and down"},{"startTime":842.692,"endTime":843.562,"body":"and say Change order."},{"startTime":843.562,"endTime":845.872,"body":"But nobody's happy"},{"startTime":843.562,"endTime":845.872,"body":"at that point."},{"startTime":845.962,"endTime":847.012,"body":"The customer's not happy."},{"startTime":847.312,"endTime":849.052,"body":"You are not happy, your"},{"startTime":847.312,"endTime":849.052,"body":"salespeople aren't happy."},{"startTime":849.102,"endTime":851.702,"body":"But also the customer doesn't"},{"startTime":849.102,"endTime":851.702,"body":"consider themselves part of the"},{"startTime":851.702,"endTime":852.932,"body":"team at that point, you know?"},{"startTime":852.937,"endTime":853.067,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":853.067,"endTime":853.472,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"startTime":853.502,"endTime":854.612,"body":"'cause they've been distanced."},{"startTime":854.642,"endTime":854.822,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":854.822,"endTime":855.062,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":855.062,"endTime":856.082,"body":"They've not been engaged."},{"startTime":856.292,"endTime":859.472,"body":"The funny thing about that story"},{"startTime":856.292,"endTime":859.472,"body":"is that it was a real developer"},{"startTime":859.572,"endTime":862.502,"body":"that had that viewpoint it"},{"startTime":859.572,"endTime":862.502,"body":"wasn't some MBA, business"},{"startTime":862.552,"endTime":863.662,"body":"manager or something like that."},{"startTime":863.662,"endTime":866.022,"body":"This was a developer on one of"},{"startTime":863.662,"endTime":866.022,"body":"the teams Who's like, I don't"},{"startTime":866.022,"endTime":868.242,"body":"understand why we wouldn't just"},{"startTime":866.022,"endTime":868.242,"body":"hold it all until we're done."},{"startTime":868.242,"endTime":870.542,"body":"And get all the requirements"},{"startTime":868.242,"endTime":870.542,"body":"up front and then do all that."},{"startTime":870.542,"endTime":873.452,"body":", there's value in showing the"},{"startTime":870.542,"endTime":873.452,"body":"customer along the way through"},{"startTime":873.452,"endTime":876.722,"body":"the journey and bringing them"},{"startTime":873.452,"endTime":876.722,"body":"into the development process."},{"startTime":876.752,"endTime":878.432,"body":"it's their software"},{"startTime":876.752,"endTime":878.432,"body":"that we're writing."},{"startTime":878.437,"endTime":880.917,"body":"it was very difficult because"},{"startTime":878.437,"endTime":880.917,"body":"it's just the way that people"},{"startTime":880.917,"endTime":884.127,"body":"had been trained in the"},{"startTime":880.917,"endTime":884.127,"body":"workplaces that they worked at,"},{"startTime":884.217,"endTime":886.738,"body":"but for sure, one that I"},{"startTime":884.217,"endTime":886.738,"body":"really, really want to talk"},{"startTime":886.738,"endTime":888.277,"body":"about, is product management."},{"startTime":888.558,"endTime":892.428,"body":"I want to talk about the"},{"startTime":888.558,"endTime":892.428,"body":"trade-offs that you make"},{"startTime":892.428,"endTime":896.028,"body":"with technical debt slash"},{"startTime":892.428,"endTime":896.028,"body":"technical complexity."},{"startTime":896.058,"endTime":899.838,"body":"When you're a new team and"},{"startTime":896.058,"endTime":899.838,"body":"you're working greenfield, like"},{"startTime":899.838,"endTime":901.248,"body":"there's no, no software exists."},{"startTime":901.248,"endTime":902.598,"body":"You're building"},{"startTime":901.248,"endTime":902.598,"body":"things from scratch."},{"startTime":902.808,"endTime":902.898,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":903.258,"endTime":905.178,"body":"You can go fast, fast,"},{"startTime":903.258,"endTime":905.178,"body":"fast, create all the"},{"startTime":905.178,"endTime":905.808,"body":"things in the world."},{"startTime":905.988,"endTime":907.068,"body":"What do you want, Mr. Customer?"},{"startTime":907.068,"endTime":908.238,"body":"What do you want, Mrs. Customer?"},{"startTime":908.388,"endTime":909.288,"body":"We'll create that."},{"startTime":909.338,"endTime":910.238,"body":"same day."},{"startTime":910.243,"endTime":912.073,"body":"we're sending it out"},{"startTime":910.243,"endTime":912.073,"body":"for testing same day."},{"startTime":912.073,"endTime":912.913,"body":"Oh, you guys are great."},{"startTime":912.913,"endTime":914.713,"body":"You're so fast, so"},{"startTime":912.913,"endTime":914.713,"body":"much faster than all my"},{"startTime":914.713,"endTime":915.643,"body":"other software vendors."},{"startTime":915.823,"endTime":919.873,"body":"But the more code you generate"},{"startTime":915.823,"endTime":919.873,"body":"now maybe you have some design"},{"startTime":919.873,"endTime":921.643,"body":"trade offs where you decided"},{"startTime":919.873,"endTime":921.643,"body":"to like, well, we're not"},{"startTime":921.643,"endTime":922.663,"body":"gonna fix that right away."},{"startTime":922.663,"endTime":924.863,"body":"Or we know we need to refactor"},{"startTime":922.663,"endTime":924.863,"body":"this 'cause it's a little"},{"startTime":924.863,"endTime":926.863,"body":"too big, but we don't have"},{"startTime":924.863,"endTime":926.863,"body":"time to break it apart."},{"startTime":926.863,"endTime":930.763,"body":"Or there's real time users using"},{"startTime":926.863,"endTime":930.763,"body":"the system 24 7 and we can't"},{"startTime":930.763,"endTime":934.183,"body":"afford x hours of downtime that"},{"startTime":930.763,"endTime":934.183,"body":"it would take to improve the"},{"startTime":934.183,"endTime":937.683,"body":"back end of the system or create"},{"startTime":934.183,"endTime":937.683,"body":"real time database replication."},{"startTime":937.683,"endTime":940.453,"body":"there are some structural things"},{"startTime":937.683,"endTime":940.453,"body":"that would take a lot of time"},{"startTime":940.512,"endTime":943.483,"body":"and you didn't build them in"},{"startTime":940.512,"endTime":943.483,"body":", some of it is the long term"},{"startTime":943.483,"endTime":946.423,"body":"costs of short term shortcuts."},{"startTime":946.543,"endTime":950.203,"body":"Some of it is that technical"},{"startTime":946.543,"endTime":950.203,"body":"that, but other parts of it are."},{"startTime":950.563,"endTime":954.702,"body":"the more complex the system"},{"startTime":950.563,"endTime":954.702,"body":"gets, the slower you will be"},{"startTime":954.882,"endTime":956.382,"body":"to make changes to that system,"},{"startTime":956.682,"endTime":959.772,"body":"Absolutely agree with that,"},{"startTime":956.682,"endTime":959.772,"body":"I think savvy teams that are"},{"startTime":959.772,"endTime":963.132,"body":"keeping separation in their"},{"startTime":959.772,"endTime":963.132,"body":"backlog, for example, things"},{"startTime":963.462,"endTime":967.362,"body":"like tech debt refactoring,"},{"startTime":963.462,"endTime":967.362,"body":"performance improvements, right?"},{"startTime":967.723,"endTime":970.933,"body":"Those are the teams that have"},{"startTime":967.723,"endTime":970.933,"body":"a, a holistic view of what's"},{"startTime":970.933,"endTime":973.363,"body":"going on and can moderate what"},{"startTime":970.933,"endTime":973.363,"body":"they're gonna pick up in a"},{"startTime":973.363,"endTime":974.973,"body":"sprint if you're sprinting,"},{"startTime":974.973,"endTime":977.518,"body":"So that is something I"},{"startTime":974.973,"endTime":977.518,"body":"haven't seen too often"},{"startTime":977.518,"endTime":981.808,"body":"because what happens often"},{"startTime":977.518,"endTime":981.808,"body":"is they are overridden by"},{"startTime":982.108,"endTime":985.798,"body":"typically product folks and"},{"startTime":982.108,"endTime":985.798,"body":"say, work on my product."},{"startTime":985.978,"endTime":988.858,"body":"You can make it better later"},{"startTime":985.978,"endTime":988.858,"body":"and later never happens."},{"startTime":988.908,"endTime":990.888,"body":"whenever I give advice on"},{"startTime":988.908,"endTime":990.888,"body":"this  people think I'm kidding."},{"startTime":990.938,"endTime":992.988,"body":"And then they're like, there's"},{"startTime":990.938,"endTime":992.988,"body":"no way that would work."},{"startTime":993.258,"endTime":997.098,"body":"Denial, anger, depression,"},{"startTime":993.258,"endTime":997.098,"body":"and then they go to sadness."},{"startTime":997.438,"endTime":998.368,"body":", I never talk to 'em again."},{"startTime":998.418,"endTime":1000.068,"body":"I don't think they ever make"},{"startTime":998.418,"endTime":1000.068,"body":"it to acceptance because"},{"startTime":1000.068,"endTime":1001.268,"body":"repaying technical debt."},{"startTime":1001.628,"endTime":1004.278,"body":"Or stepping out decisions"},{"startTime":1001.628,"endTime":1004.278,"body":"that you made that need"},{"startTime":1004.278,"endTime":1007.008,"body":"to be re-looked at in"},{"startTime":1004.278,"endTime":1007.008,"body":"future refinements."},{"startTime":1007.458,"endTime":1007.548,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1007.548,"endTime":1008.028,"body":"that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1008.448,"endTime":1011.448,"body":"What I will tell people"},{"startTime":1008.448,"endTime":1011.448,"body":"is if it's a refinement"},{"startTime":1011.448,"endTime":1012.888,"body":"thing, then cool."},{"startTime":1012.888,"endTime":1014.028,"body":"Just put it on the"},{"startTime":1012.888,"endTime":1014.028,"body":"refinement schedule."},{"startTime":1014.028,"endTime":1014.778,"body":"We'll just talk about it."},{"startTime":1015.018,"endTime":1015.288,"body":"' sure."},{"startTime":1015.318,"endTime":1016.848,"body":"unless there's something"},{"startTime":1015.318,"endTime":1016.848,"body":"special going on."},{"startTime":1016.848,"endTime":1019.748,"body":"then I'll schedule  an"},{"startTime":1016.848,"endTime":1019.748,"body":"out of order refinement."},{"startTime":1019.778,"endTime":1020.738,"body":"A special refinement."},{"startTime":1020.788,"endTime":1023.548,"body":". So I don't mind people throwing"},{"startTime":1020.788,"endTime":1023.548,"body":"things into the backlog."},{"startTime":1023.548,"endTime":1024.508,"body":"we talk about 'em"},{"startTime":1023.548,"endTime":1024.508,"body":"when we need to"},{"startTime":1024.518,"endTime":1024.788,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1025.088,"endTime":1027.988,"body":"But also, I've been on teams"},{"startTime":1025.088,"endTime":1027.988,"body":"where they don't write this"},{"startTime":1027.988,"endTime":1029.818,"body":"kind of stuff into the backlog."},{"startTime":1029.868,"endTime":1033.008,"body":"the tech lead and engineers"},{"startTime":1029.868,"endTime":1033.008,"body":"figure out, based on this"},{"startTime":1033.008,"endTime":1036.588,"body":"number, You wanna keep 20%"},{"startTime":1033.008,"endTime":1036.588,"body":"of your velocity for backend"},{"startTime":1036.588,"endTime":1039.618,"body":"engineering, refactoring,"},{"startTime":1036.588,"endTime":1039.618,"body":"chasing things down,"},{"startTime":1039.828,"endTime":1043.528,"body":"experimenting with new things,"},{"startTime":1039.828,"endTime":1043.528,"body":"the number could flex to 25"},{"startTime":1043.528,"endTime":1045.298,"body":"to 30 or maybe it's 20 to 30."},{"startTime":1045.328,"endTime":1046.558,"body":"I don't remember what"},{"startTime":1045.328,"endTime":1046.558,"body":"the book number is."},{"startTime":1046.563,"endTime":1047.403,"body":"It's in that bullock."},{"startTime":1047.458,"endTime":1048.298,"body":"It's somewhere around there."},{"startTime":1048.348,"endTime":1050.748,"body":"My other advice which again,"},{"startTime":1048.348,"endTime":1050.748,"body":"people don't like, is just,"},{"startTime":1050.778,"endTime":1053.478,"body":"just don't just take it outta"},{"startTime":1050.778,"endTime":1053.478,"body":"your product management,"},{"startTime":1053.478,"endTime":1054.558,"body":"like feature velocity."},{"startTime":1054.558,"endTime":1057.288,"body":"If you're in this feature mode"},{"startTime":1054.558,"endTime":1057.288,"body":"where you always prioritize"},{"startTime":1057.288,"endTime":1059.898,"body":"features a hundred percent of"},{"startTime":1057.288,"endTime":1059.898,"body":"the time over anything tactical,"},{"startTime":1060.258,"endTime":1061.488,"body":"just don't make it negotiable."},{"startTime":1061.488,"endTime":1063.838,"body":"Just have that number and the"},{"startTime":1061.488,"endTime":1063.838,"body":"engineering team decides what"},{"startTime":1063.838,"endTime":1065.008,"body":"gets refactored or whatever."},{"startTime":1065.008,"endTime":1066.148,"body":"It's reserve capacity."},{"startTime":1066.148,"endTime":1068.518,"body":"a savvy tech lead is your friend"},{"startTime":1066.148,"endTime":1068.518,"body":"here, They'll figure it out."},{"startTime":1068.698,"endTime":1071.278,"body":"when you're looking at this"},{"startTime":1068.698,"endTime":1071.278,"body":"and you have multiple things,"},{"startTime":1071.458,"endTime":1074.578,"body":"the team has to prioritize"},{"startTime":1071.458,"endTime":1074.578,"body":"what to pick up in their"},{"startTime":1074.668,"endTime":1078.258,"body":"refactoring realm, The best way"},{"startTime":1074.668,"endTime":1078.258,"body":"I suggest people to do this is."},{"startTime":1078.558,"endTime":1080.418,"body":"Figure out who"},{"startTime":1078.558,"endTime":1080.418,"body":"cares and, and why."},{"startTime":1080.598,"endTime":1080.808,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1080.838,"endTime":1081.138,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1081.138,"endTime":1082.188,"body":"We're gonna make things faster."},{"startTime":1082.188,"endTime":1083.808,"body":"Well, why it's running fine."},{"startTime":1083.988,"endTime":1084.528,"body":"Who needs it?"},{"startTime":1084.858,"endTime":1086.628,"body":"There's a value in"},{"startTime":1084.858,"endTime":1086.628,"body":"making it faster."},{"startTime":1086.628,"endTime":1088.338,"body":"Who is the value delivered to?"},{"startTime":1088.518,"endTime":1092.898,"body":"And based on that, so a lot of"},{"startTime":1088.518,"endTime":1092.898,"body":"a LM tools allow you to assign"},{"startTime":1092.898,"endTime":1094.338,"body":"business value of some kind."},{"startTime":1094.368,"endTime":1094.698,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1095.088,"endTime":1097.368,"body":"You know, to each of the"},{"startTime":1095.088,"endTime":1097.368,"body":"work items in your backlog."},{"startTime":1097.818,"endTime":1101.028,"body":"This business value"},{"startTime":1097.818,"endTime":1101.028,"body":"for refactoring work"},{"startTime":1101.238,"endTime":1102.138,"body":"is no different."},{"startTime":1102.618,"endTime":1104.838,"body":"If the customer doesn't care"},{"startTime":1102.618,"endTime":1104.838,"body":"that you're making something"},{"startTime":1104.838,"endTime":1107.058,"body":"faster by 10%, don't do it."},{"startTime":1107.278,"endTime":1110.308,"body":"if you look at it that way,"},{"startTime":1107.278,"endTime":1110.308,"body":"it helps in prioritizing what"},{"startTime":1110.308,"endTime":1111.298,"body":"you should be picking up."},{"startTime":1111.598,"endTime":1114.568,"body":"the other side of the equation"},{"startTime":1111.598,"endTime":1114.568,"body":"is obviously don't fill"},{"startTime":1114.568,"endTime":1115.738,"body":"your sprints to the brim."},{"startTime":1115.918,"endTime":1118.558,"body":"Things happen, but"},{"startTime":1115.918,"endTime":1118.558,"body":"allow capacity in there."},{"startTime":1118.778,"endTime":1120.848,"body":"if developers finish"},{"startTime":1118.778,"endTime":1120.848,"body":"things in the sprint."},{"startTime":1121.193,"endTime":1123.653,"body":"But don't have capacity to"},{"startTime":1121.193,"endTime":1123.653,"body":"pick up something off the top"},{"startTime":1123.653,"endTime":1126.483,"body":"of the stack in the backlog"},{"startTime":1123.653,"endTime":1126.483,"body":"to finish it in the sprint."},{"startTime":1126.573,"endTime":1129.663,"body":"They can pick up a"},{"startTime":1126.573,"endTime":1129.663,"body":"small refactoring story,"},{"startTime":1129.663,"endTime":1130.863,"body":"PBI, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1131.163,"endTime":1131.433,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1131.433,"endTime":1132.393,"body":"I'm on the fence with this one."},{"startTime":1132.443,"endTime":1134.783,"body":"Make it valuable"},{"startTime":1132.443,"endTime":1134.783,"body":"to x, y, Z user."},{"startTime":1134.783,"endTime":1137.063,"body":"I do think that is"},{"startTime":1134.783,"endTime":1137.063,"body":"the better strategy."},{"startTime":1137.303,"endTime":1139.703,"body":"You should document the work"},{"startTime":1137.303,"endTime":1139.703,"body":"you're doing, refactoring"},{"startTime":1139.703,"endTime":1142.363,"body":"changing the technical"},{"startTime":1139.703,"endTime":1142.363,"body":"architecture basically any"},{"startTime":1142.363,"endTime":1143.173,"body":"work that needs to be done."},{"startTime":1143.393,"endTime":1144.773,"body":"Regardless of"},{"startTime":1143.393,"endTime":1144.773,"body":"feature development,"},{"startTime":1144.773,"endTime":1146.363,"body":"backend development,"},{"startTime":1144.773,"endTime":1146.363,"body":"refactoring, whatever."},{"startTime":1146.663,"endTime":1149.213,"body":"On one hand you should make"},{"startTime":1146.663,"endTime":1149.213,"body":"it visible and connect it"},{"startTime":1149.213,"endTime":1152.483,"body":"to value, business value"},{"startTime":1149.213,"endTime":1152.483,"body":"for that particular user."},{"startTime":1152.533,"endTime":1156.133,"body":"They should have a rep that"},{"startTime":1152.533,"endTime":1156.133,"body":"lobbies for them wherever"},{"startTime":1156.133,"endTime":1157.843,"body":"feature prioritization"},{"startTime":1156.133,"endTime":1157.843,"body":"is lobbied for."},{"startTime":1157.893,"endTime":1158.793,"body":"wherever those things are done."},{"startTime":1159.093,"endTime":1161.988,"body":"On the other hand if it's just"},{"startTime":1159.093,"endTime":1161.988,"body":"something that you've reserved"},{"startTime":1161.988,"endTime":1166.128,"body":"that capacity and it just gets"},{"startTime":1161.988,"endTime":1166.128,"body":"done, there is also a value"},{"startTime":1166.128,"endTime":1169.098,"body":"of people just stepping up"},{"startTime":1166.128,"endTime":1169.098,"body":"and just getting stuff done."},{"startTime":1169.398,"endTime":1171.168,"body":"And that's just the normal"},{"startTime":1169.398,"endTime":1171.168,"body":"cost of doing business."},{"startTime":1171.168,"endTime":1175.548,"body":"Every job in a company, there"},{"startTime":1171.168,"endTime":1175.548,"body":"are people doing things that"},{"startTime":1175.548,"endTime":1177.078,"body":"just need to get done anyway."},{"startTime":1177.288,"endTime":1177.498,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1177.528,"endTime":1179.508,"body":"So this is no different"},{"startTime":1177.528,"endTime":1179.508,"body":"People might hear this and"},{"startTime":1179.508,"endTime":1180.978,"body":"be like, oh, how dare you?"},{"startTime":1181.018,"endTime":1183.418,"body":"engineers are gonna do stuff"},{"startTime":1181.018,"endTime":1183.418,"body":"without me telling 'em they"},{"startTime":1183.418,"endTime":1184.378,"body":"had permission or whatever."},{"startTime":1184.378,"endTime":1185.368,"body":"How dare they?"},{"startTime":1185.498,"endTime":1187.118,"body":"I don't think that's the"},{"startTime":1185.498,"endTime":1187.118,"body":"right thinking either."},{"startTime":1187.338,"endTime":1189.128,"body":"there's a little bit of"},{"startTime":1187.338,"endTime":1189.128,"body":"both  where some sprints you"},{"startTime":1189.128,"endTime":1191.348,"body":"gotta dial left some sprints,"},{"startTime":1189.128,"endTime":1191.348,"body":"you gotta dial it, right?"},{"startTime":1191.648,"endTime":1194.828,"body":"So I don't really want to"},{"startTime":1191.648,"endTime":1194.828,"body":"prescribe one over the other,"},{"startTime":1194.828,"endTime":1198.968,"body":"but I do like the, I do like"},{"startTime":1194.828,"endTime":1198.968,"body":"what we have in the four"},{"startTime":1198.968,"endTime":1202.058,"body":"category more than what we like,"},{"startTime":1198.968,"endTime":1202.058,"body":"well, more than what we have"},{"startTime":1202.058,"endTime":1205.798,"body":"in the against category, make"},{"startTime":1202.058,"endTime":1205.798,"body":"sure that it's understandable"},{"startTime":1206.098,"endTime":1209.458,"body":"and you've communicated"},{"startTime":1206.098,"endTime":1209.458,"body":"clearly the value of the thing."},{"startTime":1209.758,"endTime":1214.198,"body":"The problem with that is"},{"startTime":1209.758,"endTime":1214.198,"body":"a lot of product managers,"},{"startTime":1214.288,"endTime":1216.808,"body":"especially the influencer type"},{"startTime":1214.288,"endTime":1216.808,"body":"of product managers that are"},{"startTime":1216.808,"endTime":1219.838,"body":"telling you, like, just talk"},{"startTime":1216.808,"endTime":1219.838,"body":"to people and be cool man."},{"startTime":1220.198,"endTime":1224.518,"body":"It requires deep technical"},{"startTime":1220.198,"endTime":1224.518,"body":"understanding to really lobby"},{"startTime":1224.518,"endTime":1226.258,"body":"for these things in some forms"},{"startTime":1226.258,"endTime":1226.528,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1226.868,"endTime":1228.848,"body":"business might be grilling"},{"startTime":1226.868,"endTime":1228.848,"body":"you and your tech lead might"},{"startTime":1228.848,"endTime":1230.718,"body":"not be there at all, I've"},{"startTime":1228.848,"endTime":1230.718,"body":"been in conversations like"},{"startTime":1230.718,"endTime":1233.618,"body":"this where the tech lead or"},{"startTime":1230.718,"endTime":1233.618,"body":"whoever like VP engineering,"},{"startTime":1233.618,"endTime":1236.648,"body":"CTO, will start defending the"},{"startTime":1233.618,"endTime":1236.648,"body":"point to say listen, we've"},{"startTime":1236.648,"endTime":1237.638,"body":"had x number of crashes."},{"startTime":1237.638,"endTime":1239.228,"body":"I got people up in the"},{"startTime":1237.638,"endTime":1239.228,"body":"middle of the night."},{"startTime":1239.438,"endTime":1241.658,"body":"This can't be the way, you"},{"startTime":1239.438,"endTime":1241.658,"body":"know, this is not gonna scale."},{"startTime":1241.658,"endTime":1242.318,"body":"We can't add more."},{"startTime":1242.318,"endTime":1243.518,"body":"Customers can't reuse it."},{"startTime":1243.518,"endTime":1245.168,"body":"Every sale you make"},{"startTime":1243.518,"endTime":1245.168,"body":"puts us at risk."},{"startTime":1245.528,"endTime":1246.878,"body":"Is this really the"},{"startTime":1245.528,"endTime":1246.878,"body":"way you wanna do it?"},{"startTime":1246.878,"endTime":1248.288,"body":"We gotta pause and"},{"startTime":1246.878,"endTime":1248.288,"body":"we gotta do this."},{"startTime":1248.648,"endTime":1250.078,"body":"You know, we've been"},{"startTime":1248.648,"endTime":1250.078,"body":"saying this for months,"},{"startTime":1250.133,"endTime":1250.373,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1250.673,"endTime":1254.733,"body":"Or I can try to arm myself"},{"startTime":1250.673,"endTime":1254.733,"body":"with all those arguing points,"},{"startTime":1254.863,"endTime":1258.043,"body":"But if I don't understand"},{"startTime":1254.863,"endTime":1258.043,"body":"technology and I don't have"},{"startTime":1258.043,"endTime":1261.953,"body":"a great systems view across"},{"startTime":1258.043,"endTime":1261.953,"body":"products Somebody like a tech"},{"startTime":1261.953,"endTime":1264.773,"body":"lead who's across a couple"},{"startTime":1261.953,"endTime":1264.773,"body":"product lines or teams can"},{"startTime":1264.773,"endTime":1265.943,"body":"pretty easily argue for that."},{"startTime":1265.943,"endTime":1269.633,"body":"So, on one hand,  I like the"},{"startTime":1265.943,"endTime":1269.633,"body":"against on the other hand the,"},{"startTime":1269.738,"endTime":1273.578,"body":"the problem with the for is that"},{"startTime":1269.738,"endTime":1273.578,"body":"that product manager really has"},{"startTime":1273.578,"endTime":1278.618,"body":"to be dialed in with technology"},{"startTime":1273.578,"endTime":1278.618,"body":"the business and the systems."},{"startTime":1278.918,"endTime":1279.818,"body":"A lot of stuff."},{"startTime":1279.818,"endTime":1281.948,"body":"To be able to lobby for"},{"startTime":1279.818,"endTime":1281.948,"body":"this when they're with"},{"startTime":1281.948,"endTime":1284.468,"body":"those audiences, you can't"},{"startTime":1281.948,"endTime":1284.468,"body":"be guaranteed that the tech"},{"startTime":1284.468,"endTime":1286.508,"body":"lead's gonna get in front of"},{"startTime":1284.468,"endTime":1286.508,"body":"those audiences all the time."},{"startTime":1286.808,"endTime":1287.498,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1287.498,"endTime":1288.158,"body":"that's a good point."},{"startTime":1288.158,"endTime":1290.048,"body":"I think it's up to the"},{"startTime":1288.158,"endTime":1290.048,"body":"team though, as a whole"},{"startTime":1290.048,"endTime":1291.218,"body":"to figure out how."},{"startTime":1291.603,"endTime":1294.893,"body":"they relay the messaging, It"},{"startTime":1291.603,"endTime":1294.893,"body":"becomes a habit after a while."},{"startTime":1295.193,"endTime":1297.233,"body":"initially, yes, you're"},{"startTime":1295.193,"endTime":1297.233,"body":"gonna have to sell it,"},{"startTime":1297.313,"endTime":1298.423,"body":"but it becomes a habit."},{"startTime":1298.723,"endTime":1301.183,"body":"That capacity is just"},{"startTime":1298.723,"endTime":1301.183,"body":"there for that work."},{"startTime":1301.513,"endTime":1304.573,"body":"Now if something emergent"},{"startTime":1301.513,"endTime":1304.573,"body":"comes up, sure enough,"},{"startTime":1304.603,"endTime":1306.983,"body":"you can drop that and"},{"startTime":1304.603,"endTime":1306.983,"body":"pick up, something else."},{"startTime":1307.283,"endTime":1310.223,"body":"But then don't let that be the"},{"startTime":1307.283,"endTime":1310.223,"body":"bad habit going forward either."},{"startTime":1310.223,"endTime":1310.943,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1311.093,"endTime":1312.263,"body":"Well, we have a"},{"startTime":1311.093,"endTime":1312.263,"body":"lot of bad habits."},{"startTime":1312.313,"endTime":1315.093,"body":"I don't like it depends"},{"startTime":1312.313,"endTime":1315.093,"body":"answers, but since both of these"},{"startTime":1315.093,"endTime":1318.353,"body":"were, it depends I'll award"},{"startTime":1315.093,"endTime":1318.353,"body":"a 0.1, depend on each side."},{"startTime":1318.563,"endTime":1318.713,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1318.713,"endTime":1321.353,"body":"1, 1, 1 dependency per side."},{"startTime":1321.563,"endTime":1322.553,"body":"That's better than depend."},{"startTime":1322.913,"endTime":1323.243,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1323.603,"endTime":1325.043,"body":"No one depends per side."},{"startTime":1325.343,"endTime":1325.733,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1326.133,"endTime":1330.003,"body":"let me get to the architect of"},{"startTime":1326.133,"endTime":1330.003,"body":"this crime product management."},{"startTime":1330.333,"endTime":1330.633,"body":"Aha."},{"startTime":1330.723,"endTime":1331.233,"body":"Where are you?"},{"startTime":1331.233,"endTime":1331.953,"body":"Product management."},{"startTime":1332.253,"endTime":1333.843,"body":"why are you not at your desk?"},{"startTime":1334.323,"endTime":1336.183,"body":"We've all returned"},{"startTime":1334.323,"endTime":1336.183,"body":"to office, right?"},{"startTime":1336.243,"endTime":1337.023,"body":"Seven days a week."},{"startTime":1337.023,"endTime":1337.473,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1337.473,"endTime":1338.703,"body":"Seven, seven days a week."},{"startTime":1338.703,"endTime":1339.393,"body":"Product management."},{"startTime":1339.693,"endTime":1342.813,"body":"So when I hear engineering"},{"startTime":1339.693,"endTime":1342.813,"body":"should be moving faster."},{"startTime":1343.083,"endTime":1344.733,"body":", there's two things"},{"startTime":1343.083,"endTime":1344.733,"body":"I suspect right away"},{"startTime":1344.783,"endTime":1347.363,"body":"number one, engineering"},{"startTime":1344.783,"endTime":1347.363,"body":"has no predictability."},{"startTime":1347.453,"endTime":1348.683,"body":"I think they're"},{"startTime":1347.453,"endTime":1348.683,"body":"all over the place."},{"startTime":1349.133,"endTime":1352.783,"body":"I'm expecting to see zero"},{"startTime":1349.133,"endTime":1352.783,"body":"story points or zero."},{"startTime":1352.833,"endTime":1354.003,"body":"What kind of points"},{"startTime":1352.833,"endTime":1354.003,"body":"am I gonna say?"},{"startTime":1354.303,"endTime":1356.373,"body":"Brownie points, zero touchdowns."},{"startTime":1356.773,"endTime":1358.783,"body":"Zero runs in this inning."},{"startTime":1359.143,"endTime":1360.613,"body":"10 runs the next inning."},{"startTime":1360.913,"endTime":1362.143,"body":"One run the next one."},{"startTime":1362.233,"endTime":1363.493,"body":"Like all over the place."},{"startTime":1363.493,"endTime":1363.553,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1363.553,"endTime":1365.063,"body":"I expect to see their"},{"startTime":1363.553,"endTime":1365.063,"body":"throughput, right?"},{"startTime":1365.063,"endTime":1366.233,"body":"I expect to see it"},{"startTime":1365.063,"endTime":1366.233,"body":"all over the place."},{"startTime":1366.323,"endTime":1369.083,"body":"that will be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1366.323,"endTime":1369.083,"body":"engineering needs to step up,"},{"startTime":1369.443,"endTime":1372.233,"body":"ask some real questions about"},{"startTime":1369.443,"endTime":1372.233,"body":"why things are like this and"},{"startTime":1372.233,"endTime":1374.933,"body":"start recommending some fixes or"},{"startTime":1372.233,"endTime":1374.933,"body":"making some fixes depending on"},{"startTime":1374.933,"endTime":1375.923,"body":"where the problems are, right?"},{"startTime":1375.923,"endTime":1378.443,"body":"I need engineering as"},{"startTime":1375.923,"endTime":1378.443,"body":"a full-time partner in"},{"startTime":1378.443,"endTime":1381.573,"body":"helping us be a, little"},{"startTime":1378.443,"endTime":1381.573,"body":"introspection to say, where"},{"startTime":1381.573,"endTime":1382.353,"body":"are the real problems?"},{"startTime":1382.353,"endTime":1383.553,"body":"Let's actually talk about it."},{"startTime":1383.853,"endTime":1387.153,"body":"And then on the other side of"},{"startTime":1383.853,"endTime":1387.153,"body":"the mirror is myself looking"},{"startTime":1387.153,"endTime":1389.913,"body":"at myself back in the face of"},{"startTime":1387.153,"endTime":1389.913,"body":"product management of like, are"},{"startTime":1389.913,"endTime":1393.003,"body":"you sure that product management"},{"startTime":1389.913,"endTime":1393.003,"body":"is not just saying like, build"},{"startTime":1393.003,"endTime":1396.423,"body":"mirror reporting engine that has"},{"startTime":1393.003,"endTime":1396.423,"body":"these 15 different reports from"},{"startTime":1396.423,"endTime":1399.753,"body":"all these 87 different databases"},{"startTime":1396.423,"endTime":1399.753,"body":"and have it done in one sprint?"},{"startTime":1399.753,"endTime":1400.383,"body":"That's one story."},{"startTime":1400.438,"endTime":1401.428,"body":"I could do that."},{"startTime":1401.478,"endTime":1403.218,"body":"You know what else is"},{"startTime":1401.478,"endTime":1403.218,"body":"a one story, A single"},{"startTime":1403.218,"endTime":1404.928,"body":"story solve world hunger."},{"startTime":1404.958,"endTime":1405.408,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1405.498,"endTime":1405.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1405.708,"endTime":1406.458,"body":"So one story."},{"startTime":1406.518,"endTime":1406.758,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1407.058,"endTime":1409.743,"body":"I, I think there's so much"},{"startTime":1407.058,"endTime":1409.743,"body":"under this, is your product"},{"startTime":1409.743,"endTime":1413.583,"body":"organization working with"},{"startTime":1409.743,"endTime":1413.583,"body":"the team or against the team?"},{"startTime":1413.883,"endTime":1415.473,"body":"are they not a real"},{"startTime":1413.883,"endTime":1415.473,"body":"product organization?"},{"startTime":1415.773,"endTime":1419.223,"body":"Are they project managers who"},{"startTime":1415.773,"endTime":1419.223,"body":"found more product management"},{"startTime":1419.223,"endTime":1422.323,"body":"jobs than project management"},{"startTime":1419.223,"endTime":1422.323,"body":"jobs on paper applied and got"},{"startTime":1422.323,"endTime":1424.483,"body":"this one, now they're just"},{"startTime":1422.323,"endTime":1424.483,"body":"throwing a bunch of stuff"},{"startTime":1424.483,"endTime":1427.273,"body":"at the tech lead and say, do"},{"startTime":1424.483,"endTime":1427.273,"body":"this not showing up for any"},{"startTime":1427.273,"endTime":1431.083,"body":"refinements, you know, a laundry"},{"startTime":1427.273,"endTime":1431.083,"body":"list of work, a mile deep."},{"startTime":1431.443,"endTime":1433.993,"body":"Nothing's prioritized, you"},{"startTime":1431.443,"endTime":1433.993,"body":"know, or I mean, it could"},{"startTime":1433.993,"endTime":1436.903,"body":"be prioritized, but like,"},{"startTime":1433.993,"endTime":1436.903,"body":"here's 10 priority ones."},{"startTime":1437.163,"endTime":1440.733,"body":"That's between engineering"},{"startTime":1437.163,"endTime":1440.733,"body":"has no velocity, like very"},{"startTime":1440.733,"endTime":1441.963,"body":"undisciplined type of thing."},{"startTime":1442.023,"endTime":1445.113,"body":"And product management is not"},{"startTime":1442.023,"endTime":1445.113,"body":"really doing product management"},{"startTime":1445.113,"endTime":1446.553,"body":"between one of those two things."},{"startTime":1446.853,"endTime":1449.433,"body":"I, I would say like there's a"},{"startTime":1446.853,"endTime":1449.433,"body":"lot of nuance in the podcast"},{"startTime":1449.463,"endTime":1452.403,"body":"but 90% of my experience"},{"startTime":1449.463,"endTime":1452.403,"body":"is one of these two things"},{"startTime":1452.403,"endTime":1453.783,"body":"is fundamentally broken."},{"startTime":1454.083,"endTime":1454.983,"body":"I'd concur with that."},{"startTime":1454.983,"endTime":1455.703,"body":"I think that's true."},{"startTime":1455.703,"endTime":1457.683,"body":"That's where majority"},{"startTime":1455.703,"endTime":1457.683,"body":"of the functions are."},{"startTime":1457.983,"endTime":1460.743,"body":"It's like saying, look,"},{"startTime":1457.983,"endTime":1460.743,"body":"you know, the, the product"},{"startTime":1460.923,"endTime":1462.603,"body":"side of the house is."},{"startTime":1462.903,"endTime":1464.763,"body":"Often customer facing."},{"startTime":1465.063,"endTime":1468.123,"body":"Whereas engineering is"},{"startTime":1465.063,"endTime":1468.123,"body":"inward in the company."},{"startTime":1468.123,"endTime":1470.463,"body":"They don't talk to customers,"},{"startTime":1468.123,"endTime":1470.463,"body":"a lot of organizations."},{"startTime":1470.463,"endTime":1472.613,"body":"But they should however,"},{"startTime":1470.463,"endTime":1472.613,"body":"this is the reality."},{"startTime":1472.793,"endTime":1476.783,"body":"They don't, so products saying,"},{"startTime":1472.793,"endTime":1476.783,"body":"look, do as, as we say, because"},{"startTime":1476.783,"endTime":1478.973,"body":"this is, you know, this is"},{"startTime":1476.783,"endTime":1478.973,"body":"what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1479.073,"endTime":1480.993,"body":"How do you know the"},{"startTime":1479.073,"endTime":1480.993,"body":"customer needs that?"},{"startTime":1481.043,"endTime":1482.453,"body":"Trust me, they need this."},{"startTime":1482.503,"endTime":1483.553,"body":"no, I don't trust you."},{"startTime":1483.823,"endTime":1484.633,"body":"Can I talk to them?"},{"startTime":1484.973,"endTime":1486.533,"body":"Engineering should"},{"startTime":1484.973,"endTime":1486.533,"body":"be able to do that."},{"startTime":1486.963,"endTime":1490.263,"body":"But if they don't do that, they"},{"startTime":1486.963,"endTime":1490.263,"body":"don't really have an idea of"},{"startTime":1490.263,"endTime":1493.863,"body":"what the real needs are and be"},{"startTime":1490.263,"endTime":1493.863,"body":"able to sort out the wheat from"},{"startTime":1493.863,"endTime":1497.133,"body":"the shaft, the needs from the"},{"startTime":1493.863,"endTime":1497.133,"body":"wishes, the wants, the desires,"},{"startTime":1497.133,"endTime":1499.563,"body":"all of that is great, but you"},{"startTime":1497.133,"endTime":1499.563,"body":"are getting paid for the needs"},{"startTime":1499.563,"endTime":1501.783,"body":"right now, so just satisfy that."},{"startTime":1501.843,"endTime":1501.963,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1501.963,"endTime":1504.183,"body":"Correspondingly go to the"},{"startTime":1501.963,"endTime":1504.183,"body":"backlog and sort it out"},{"startTime":1504.183,"endTime":1506.793,"body":"that way, front ending"},{"startTime":1504.183,"endTime":1506.793,"body":"the conversations when."},{"startTime":1507.093,"endTime":1508.083,"body":"Product or sales?"},{"startTime":1508.083,"endTime":1509.043,"body":"Typically it's sales."},{"startTime":1509.043,"endTime":1511.353,"body":"It says customer needs X. Right?"},{"startTime":1511.533,"endTime":1513.603,"body":"There's all these ability"},{"startTime":1511.533,"endTime":1513.603,"body":"questions that need to be"},{"startTime":1513.603,"endTime":1514.803,"body":"asked that don't get asked."},{"startTime":1514.853,"endTime":1515.783,"body":"They need it to work."},{"startTime":1515.793,"endTime":1517.353,"body":"what scale, how many users?"},{"startTime":1517.403,"endTime":1518.543,"body":"What does it scale up to?"},{"startTime":1518.753,"endTime":1520.103,"body":"What about availability?"},{"startTime":1520.203,"endTime":1524.153,"body":"Does it have to be, 99.99%"},{"startTime":1520.203,"endTime":1524.153,"body":"the engineering folks need"},{"startTime":1524.153,"endTime":1526.403,"body":"to know that so they can"},{"startTime":1524.153,"endTime":1526.403,"body":"build the right solution."},{"startTime":1526.463,"endTime":1526.643,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1526.673,"endTime":1527.003,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1527.003,"endTime":1528.923,"body":"But these convos often"},{"startTime":1527.003,"endTime":1528.923,"body":"don't happen or they"},{"startTime":1528.923,"endTime":1532.003,"body":"happen late in the game, so"},{"startTime":1528.923,"endTime":1532.003,"body":"you're always backpedaling."},{"startTime":1532.003,"endTime":1532.303,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1532.603,"endTime":1533.833,"body":"Sorry, I still"},{"startTime":1532.603,"endTime":1533.833,"body":"haven't gotten over."},{"startTime":1533.833,"endTime":1536.863,"body":"The product manager who actually"},{"startTime":1533.833,"endTime":1536.863,"body":"is a project manager retired."},{"startTime":1536.863,"endTime":1536.983,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1536.983,"endTime":1539.023,"body":"I still haven't gotten over"},{"startTime":1536.983,"endTime":1539.023,"body":"that because that's how you get"},{"startTime":1539.173,"endTime":1543.243,"body":"like if you want something to"},{"startTime":1539.173,"endTime":1543.243,"body":"hold up to the light to look"},{"startTime":1543.243,"endTime":1546.273,"body":"at, it's like if you wanna"},{"startTime":1543.243,"endTime":1546.273,"body":"hold this glass of water up to"},{"startTime":1546.273,"endTime":1548.943,"body":"the light to look at all the"},{"startTime":1546.273,"endTime":1548.943,"body":"floating stuff inside of it."},{"startTime":1549.408,"endTime":1552.108,"body":"The, the thing that you wanna"},{"startTime":1549.408,"endTime":1552.108,"body":"look for floating in there is"},{"startTime":1552.108,"endTime":1554.778,"body":"like, did, did someone figure"},{"startTime":1552.108,"endTime":1554.778,"body":"out the business viability?"},{"startTime":1554.778,"endTime":1557.738,"body":"Like, can we actually sell"},{"startTime":1554.778,"endTime":1557.738,"body":"this and will people buy it"},{"startTime":1557.738,"endTime":1558.758,"body":"and give us money for it?"},{"startTime":1558.928,"endTime":1563.038,"body":"that one thing should shut down"},{"startTime":1558.928,"endTime":1563.038,"body":"90% of the rest of the, maybe"},{"startTime":1563.038,"endTime":1565.108,"body":"not even, not, maybe, maybe"},{"startTime":1563.038,"endTime":1565.108,"body":"that's your Pareto principle."},{"startTime":1565.108,"endTime":1568.438,"body":"Maybe that's your 80 20 rule"},{"startTime":1565.108,"endTime":1568.438,"body":"of, hold it up to the light,"},{"startTime":1568.498,"endTime":1571.258,"body":"see if anyone even thought"},{"startTime":1568.498,"endTime":1571.258,"body":"about the business viability."},{"startTime":1571.328,"endTime":1575.258,"body":"if they haven't, you"},{"startTime":1571.328,"endTime":1575.258,"body":"probably have major problems"},{"startTime":1575.258,"endTime":1576.008,"body":"in product management."},{"startTime":1576.058,"endTime":1576.958,"body":"Ultimately, yeah."},{"startTime":1576.988,"endTime":1580.608,"body":"your prioritization is based"},{"startTime":1576.988,"endTime":1580.608,"body":"off of whatever the executive"},{"startTime":1580.608,"endTime":1583.698,"body":"or whoever, you know, highest"},{"startTime":1580.608,"endTime":1583.698,"body":"paid person in the room type of."},{"startTime":1583.758,"endTime":1584.118,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1584.418,"endTime":1586.878,"body":"I wish I had a better outlook"},{"startTime":1584.418,"endTime":1586.878,"body":"on this one being a product"},{"startTime":1586.878,"endTime":1588.788,"body":"manager, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":1586.878,"endTime":1588.788,"body":"people out there even the"},{"startTime":1588.788,"endTime":1590.948,"body":"Marty Cagan four Categories,"},{"startTime":1588.788,"endTime":1590.948,"body":"just write those down."},{"startTime":1591.248,"endTime":1592.813,"body":"For every epic that you"},{"startTime":1591.248,"endTime":1592.813,"body":"start, it's a starting point."},{"startTime":1592.818,"endTime":1593.268,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1593.268,"endTime":1597.618,"body":"and make it an integral part of"},{"startTime":1593.268,"endTime":1597.618,"body":"your discovery, your work items."},{"startTime":1597.618,"endTime":1600.268,"body":"it's not a bolt-on later,"},{"startTime":1597.618,"endTime":1600.268,"body":"it's part and parcel of it."},{"startTime":1600.268,"endTime":1600.958,"body":"It's organic."},{"startTime":1601.058,"endTime":1602.898,"body":"If you do that,"},{"startTime":1601.058,"endTime":1602.898,"body":"you'll be well served."},{"startTime":1603.198,"endTime":1604.518,"body":"I forgot what topic"},{"startTime":1603.198,"endTime":1604.518,"body":"we were talking about."},{"startTime":1604.518,"endTime":1607.563,"body":"For this category, I"},{"startTime":1604.518,"endTime":1607.563,"body":"mean, for devs too slow."},{"startTime":1607.613,"endTime":1609.053,"body":"I can't think of"},{"startTime":1607.613,"endTime":1609.053,"body":"anything I would put on"},{"startTime":1609.053,"endTime":1610.253,"body":"development from this one."},{"startTime":1610.463,"endTime":1614.208,"body":"In this category is usually,"},{"startTime":1610.463,"endTime":1614.208,"body":"it's a, a function of"},{"startTime":1614.208,"endTime":1616.878,"body":"product management is either"},{"startTime":1614.208,"endTime":1616.878,"body":"broken or disingenuous."},{"startTime":1616.908,"endTime":1619.933,"body":"in that case, I'll give it"},{"startTime":1616.908,"endTime":1619.933,"body":"one Maltese Falcon . Maltese"},{"startTime":1619.933,"endTime":1621.048,"body":"Falcon  great movie."},{"startTime":1621.048,"endTime":1623.578,"body":"It is like the ending of,"},{"startTime":1621.048,"endTime":1623.578,"body":"I guess, one Maltese Falcon"},{"startTime":1623.578,"endTime":1626.568,"body":"because it's fake and"},{"startTime":1623.578,"endTime":1626.568,"body":"everyone died for no reason."},{"startTime":1626.868,"endTime":1628.698,"body":", that should be a"},{"startTime":1626.868,"endTime":1628.698,"body":"negative Maltese Falcon."},{"startTime":1628.743,"endTime":1631.758,"body":"This is gonna be product"},{"startTime":1628.743,"endTime":1631.758,"body":"management is a Maltese Falcon."},{"startTime":1631.758,"endTime":1633.228,"body":"That's gonna be the"},{"startTime":1631.758,"endTime":1633.228,"body":"title of the podcast,"},{"startTime":1633.528,"endTime":1634.728,"body":"development is too Slow."},{"startTime":1634.728,"endTime":1637.498,"body":"The Maltese Falcon of"},{"startTime":1634.728,"endTime":1637.498,"body":"software questions or"},{"startTime":1637.498,"endTime":1638.188,"body":"something like that."},{"startTime":1638.488,"endTime":1638.998,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":1638.998,"endTime":1639.628,"body":"That's a good one."},{"startTime":1639.778,"endTime":1642.298,"body":"Let's stay on the Maltese"},{"startTime":1639.778,"endTime":1642.298,"body":"Falcon analogy and talk"},{"startTime":1642.298,"endTime":1645.118,"body":"about when you're doing"},{"startTime":1642.298,"endTime":1645.118,"body":"faux product management."},{"startTime":1645.248,"endTime":1648.038,"body":"Because along with faux product"},{"startTime":1645.248,"endTime":1648.038,"body":"management becomes this, like,"},{"startTime":1648.188,"endTime":1653.578,"body":"this project management in"},{"startTime":1648.188,"endTime":1653.578,"body":"disguise, sort of like MBA,"},{"startTime":1653.908,"endTime":1659.938,"body":"like company thinking of, I've"},{"startTime":1653.908,"endTime":1659.938,"body":"gotta have resource utilization."},{"startTime":1660.148,"endTime":1662.158,"body":"Gotta have everyone working"},{"startTime":1660.148,"endTime":1662.158,"body":"at a hundred percent."},{"startTime":1662.458,"endTime":1664.648,"body":"So nobody's taking"},{"startTime":1662.458,"endTime":1664.648,"body":"advantage of me."},{"startTime":1664.708,"endTime":1667.708,"body":"I gotta have engineers,"},{"startTime":1664.708,"endTime":1667.708,"body":"on multiple projects and"},{"startTime":1667.758,"endTime":1669.078,"body":", switching between things."},{"startTime":1669.078,"endTime":1672.398,"body":"And I need real pain before I"},{"startTime":1669.078,"endTime":1672.398,"body":"go out and hire any new people."},{"startTime":1672.488,"endTime":1672.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1672.588,"endTime":1673.278,"body":"that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1673.558,"endTime":1677.038,"body":"So a lot of this emanates"},{"startTime":1673.558,"endTime":1677.038,"body":"from picking a random date"},{"startTime":1677.038,"endTime":1678.808,"body":"on the calendar for delivery."},{"startTime":1679.138,"endTime":1682.318,"body":"Go live as it's known, the"},{"startTime":1679.138,"endTime":1682.318,"body":"diamond on the Gantt chart,"},{"startTime":1682.618,"endTime":1684.358,"body":"and then you're back fitting."},{"startTime":1684.358,"endTime":1686.368,"body":"So you say, well, I have"},{"startTime":1684.358,"endTime":1686.368,"body":"X number of people, if"},{"startTime":1686.368,"endTime":1689.278,"body":"they work eight hour days,"},{"startTime":1686.368,"endTime":1689.278,"body":"it'll take this much."},{"startTime":1689.338,"endTime":1691.258,"body":"Oh wait, that's"},{"startTime":1689.338,"endTime":1691.258,"body":"beyond my diamond."},{"startTime":1691.388,"endTime":1695.228,"body":". So I'm gonna ask them to work"},{"startTime":1691.388,"endTime":1695.228,"body":"faster, harder, whatever."},{"startTime":1695.308,"endTime":1698.608,"body":"And bring that in so it matches"},{"startTime":1695.308,"endTime":1698.608,"body":"with my fictitious date."},{"startTime":1698.978,"endTime":1702.628,"body":"and in there you're looking"},{"startTime":1698.978,"endTime":1702.628,"body":"at your pool of engineers"},{"startTime":1702.628,"endTime":1704.188,"body":"and say, are they busy?"},{"startTime":1704.458,"endTime":1706.228,"body":"Are they actually"},{"startTime":1704.458,"endTime":1706.228,"body":"working eight hour days?"},{"startTime":1706.288,"endTime":1707.338,"body":"Are they utilized?"},{"startTime":1707.338,"endTime":1710.788,"body":"And when you put 'em on two,"},{"startTime":1707.338,"endTime":1710.788,"body":"it's four hours here, four hours"},{"startTime":1710.788,"endTime":1711.988,"body":"here, or six here, two here."},{"startTime":1711.988,"endTime":1713.638,"body":"But reality is"},{"startTime":1711.988,"endTime":1713.638,"body":"it's not like that."},{"startTime":1713.738,"endTime":1715.478,"body":"But that's where it"},{"startTime":1713.738,"endTime":1715.478,"body":"emanates from, I think"},{"startTime":1715.778,"endTime":1717.218,"body":"measuring their busyness."},{"startTime":1717.268,"endTime":1718.798,"body":"Hours per day on a project."},{"startTime":1718.798,"endTime":1719.393,"body":"I was gonna say."},{"startTime":1719.443,"endTime":1723.103,"body":"I wasn't thinking like"},{"startTime":1719.443,"endTime":1723.103,"body":"value optimization versus"},{"startTime":1723.103,"endTime":1724.393,"body":"resource optimization."},{"startTime":1724.393,"endTime":1726.373,"body":"When we started talking"},{"startTime":1724.393,"endTime":1726.373,"body":"about this category, I"},{"startTime":1726.373,"endTime":1730.033,"body":"wasn't thinking in terms of"},{"startTime":1726.373,"endTime":1730.033,"body":"optimizing for flow, which we"},{"startTime":1730.033,"endTime":1731.143,"body":"kind of talked about earlier."},{"startTime":1731.193,"endTime":1733.543,"body":"it's sort of like a drop"},{"startTime":1731.193,"endTime":1733.543,"body":"in replacement for this"},{"startTime":1733.543,"endTime":1734.833,"body":"utilization nonsense."},{"startTime":1735.133,"endTime":1738.823,"body":"What this category really"},{"startTime":1735.133,"endTime":1738.823,"body":"represents is the people running"},{"startTime":1738.823,"endTime":1742.273,"body":"the business don't understand a"},{"startTime":1738.823,"endTime":1742.273,"body":"different way of doing metrics."},{"startTime":1742.703,"endTime":1746.003,"body":"they're sort of like perverting"},{"startTime":1742.703,"endTime":1746.003,"body":"the metrics that they have."},{"startTime":1746.053,"endTime":1747.493,"body":"I think about OKRs for example."},{"startTime":1747.793,"endTime":1751.543,"body":"It's like, well the team's gotta"},{"startTime":1747.793,"endTime":1751.543,"body":"have a key result to be judged"},{"startTime":1751.543,"endTime":1754.753,"body":"by, and then every key result's"},{"startTime":1751.543,"endTime":1754.753,"body":"gotta have a date next to it."},{"startTime":1754.783,"endTime":1755.983,"body":"'cause that's what the"},{"startTime":1754.783,"endTime":1755.983,"body":"framework tells me."},{"startTime":1755.983,"endTime":1757.363,"body":"You gotta have a"},{"startTime":1755.983,"endTime":1757.363,"body":"date next to it."},{"startTime":1757.493,"endTime":1759.293,"body":"So now I'm just gonna"},{"startTime":1757.493,"endTime":1759.293,"body":"pick a date outta the air."},{"startTime":1759.293,"endTime":1761.363,"body":"And we want aggressive dates"},{"startTime":1759.293,"endTime":1761.363,"body":"home because we wanna make"},{"startTime":1761.363,"endTime":1762.953,"body":"sure we're pushing the team."},{"startTime":1763.143,"endTime":1766.143,"body":"Because that's what I see my"},{"startTime":1763.143,"endTime":1766.143,"body":"job as management being to push"},{"startTime":1766.143,"endTime":1769.513,"body":"the team, And if they don't, you"},{"startTime":1766.143,"endTime":1769.513,"body":"know, if I, I say you need to"},{"startTime":1769.573,"endTime":1773.713,"body":"complete 120% more widgets than"},{"startTime":1769.573,"endTime":1773.713,"body":"you did last year, whatever,"},{"startTime":1773.713,"endTime":1776.293,"body":"I guess it would be 20% more"},{"startTime":1773.713,"endTime":1776.293,"body":"widgets last year, not 120."},{"startTime":1776.593,"endTime":1777.463,"body":"That would kill the team."},{"startTime":1777.463,"endTime":1777.973,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1778.023,"endTime":1779.943,"body":"We'll just get new,"},{"startTime":1778.023,"endTime":1779.943,"body":"younger whipper snappers"},{"startTime":1779.943,"endTime":1780.843,"body":"in here for half the cost."},{"startTime":1781.013,"endTime":1785.063,"body":", if I want 20% more widgets"},{"startTime":1781.013,"endTime":1785.063,"body":"by this time last year"},{"startTime":1785.213,"endTime":1787.403,"body":"from the same team with no"},{"startTime":1785.213,"endTime":1787.403,"body":"extra money or anything."},{"startTime":1787.863,"endTime":1789.303,"body":"And by the way,"},{"startTime":1787.863,"endTime":1789.303,"body":"no extra bonuses."},{"startTime":1789.703,"endTime":1792.033,"body":"Isn't the game here,"},{"startTime":1789.703,"endTime":1792.033,"body":"just playing games with"},{"startTime":1792.033,"endTime":1793.983,"body":"metrics, isn't that"},{"startTime":1792.033,"endTime":1793.983,"body":"really what's happening?"},{"startTime":1793.983,"endTime":1796.373,"body":"it's less about because"},{"startTime":1793.983,"endTime":1796.373,"body":"you can pick anything here."},{"startTime":1796.493,"endTime":1797.663,"body":"flow is just one thing."},{"startTime":1797.663,"endTime":1800.813,"body":"I said earlier we need"},{"startTime":1797.663,"endTime":1800.813,"body":"10% more flow month over"},{"startTime":1800.813,"endTime":1802.373,"body":"month, every month forever."},{"startTime":1802.403,"endTime":1805.873,"body":"Hockey stick growth for flow,"},{"startTime":1802.403,"endTime":1805.873,"body":"which is ridiculous, right?"},{"startTime":1805.873,"endTime":1807.223,"body":"unless you're gonna"},{"startTime":1805.873,"endTime":1807.223,"body":"throw unlimited money"},{"startTime":1807.223,"endTime":1808.033,"body":"into your assembly line."},{"startTime":1808.033,"endTime":1812.203,"body":"saying we need unlimited"},{"startTime":1808.033,"endTime":1812.203,"body":"whip or unlimited whatever."},{"startTime":1812.203,"endTime":1814.903,"body":"Like it's, it's just some"},{"startTime":1812.203,"endTime":1814.903,"body":"kinda like metric that's"},{"startTime":1814.903,"endTime":1815.803,"body":"been picked outta the air."},{"startTime":1816.088,"endTime":1817.228,"body":"And then used as a weapon."},{"startTime":1817.528,"endTime":1819.538,"body":"It doesn't matter what that"},{"startTime":1817.528,"endTime":1819.538,"body":"metric is, unfortunately."},{"startTime":1819.538,"endTime":1820.378,"body":"All too common."},{"startTime":1820.378,"endTime":1821.218,"body":"Absolutely right."},{"startTime":1821.268,"endTime":1822.858,"body":", weaponizing is a"},{"startTime":1821.268,"endTime":1822.858,"body":"good word, right?"},{"startTime":1822.863,"endTime":1822.893,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1822.898,"endTime":1825.528,"body":"So they do that, but then"},{"startTime":1822.898,"endTime":1825.528,"body":"the teams figured that out."},{"startTime":1825.918,"endTime":1827.329,"body":"So they're gaming"},{"startTime":1825.918,"endTime":1827.329,"body":"the metrics, right."},{"startTime":1827.387,"endTime":1828.707,"body":"So nobody's winning here."},{"startTime":1828.797,"endTime":1830.987,"body":"There's an illusion"},{"startTime":1828.797,"endTime":1830.987,"body":"of progress here."},{"startTime":1831.067,"endTime":1832.027,"body":"And nobody's winning."},{"startTime":1832.387,"endTime":1834.577,"body":"Least of all the customer."},{"startTime":1834.627,"endTime":1835.437,"body":"They're not winning."},{"startTime":1835.917,"endTime":1839.097,"body":"So how about we pivot this whole"},{"startTime":1835.917,"endTime":1839.097,"body":"thing and say it's less about"},{"startTime":1839.097,"endTime":1842.637,"body":"keeping people busy, and it's"},{"startTime":1839.097,"endTime":1842.637,"body":"more about taking customers"},{"startTime":1842.637,"endTime":1846.557,"body":"from being satisfied to being"},{"startTime":1842.637,"endTime":1846.557,"body":"delighted, How about we focus"},{"startTime":1846.557,"endTime":1851.777,"body":"on that, you know, deliver"},{"startTime":1846.557,"endTime":1851.777,"body":"not necessarily faster, but of"},{"startTime":1851.777,"endTime":1853.337,"body":"higher grade, higher quality."},{"startTime":1853.727,"endTime":1854.387,"body":"How about that?"},{"startTime":1854.687,"endTime":1857.467,"body":"Well, I really can't argue"},{"startTime":1854.687,"endTime":1857.467,"body":"against, like, I would, the way"},{"startTime":1857.467,"endTime":1860.137,"body":"I would argue against this is"},{"startTime":1857.467,"endTime":1860.137,"body":"just, just don't do this at all."},{"startTime":1860.217,"endTime":1861.867,"body":"Refuse to even"},{"startTime":1860.217,"endTime":1861.867,"body":"play in this game."},{"startTime":1861.867,"endTime":1864.127,"body":"Like, take your ball and go"},{"startTime":1861.867,"endTime":1864.127,"body":"home and play a sport that"},{"startTime":1864.127,"endTime":1864.967,"body":"you can actually win at."},{"startTime":1864.967,"endTime":1867.847,"body":"I wouldn't even play with"},{"startTime":1864.967,"endTime":1867.847,"body":"this being measured by,"},{"startTime":1867.877,"endTime":1870.727,"body":"you know, x, y, Z number of"},{"startTime":1867.877,"endTime":1870.727,"body":"hours, this kind of nonsense."},{"startTime":1871.087,"endTime":1872.917,"body":"I would just go work for a"},{"startTime":1871.087,"endTime":1872.917,"body":"business that's gonna put"},{"startTime":1872.917,"endTime":1875.437,"body":"that other business outta"},{"startTime":1872.917,"endTime":1875.437,"body":"business by just winning."},{"startTime":1875.737,"endTime":1876.787,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1876.837,"endTime":1880.257,"body":"I mean, gamification of metrics"},{"startTime":1876.837,"endTime":1880.257,"body":"is not serving anyone, for sure."},{"startTime":1880.357,"endTime":1882.577,"body":"this is also another good"},{"startTime":1880.357,"endTime":1882.577,"body":"indicator that your product"},{"startTime":1882.697,"endTime":1885.367,"body":"management people dunno anything"},{"startTime":1882.697,"endTime":1885.367,"body":"about product management"},{"startTime":1885.487,"endTime":1887.527,"body":"because I, 'cause I've seen"},{"startTime":1885.487,"endTime":1887.527,"body":"OKRs, I've seen this come"},{"startTime":1887.527,"endTime":1888.367,"body":"down from product managers."},{"startTime":1888.607,"endTime":1889.147,"body":"Oh, for sure."},{"startTime":1889.147,"endTime":1889.477,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1889.697,"endTime":1892.727,"body":"Or from, you know, leadership"},{"startTime":1889.697,"endTime":1892.727,"body":"that's supposed to understand"},{"startTime":1892.727,"endTime":1895.037,"body":"product management, you know, so"},{"startTime":1892.727,"endTime":1895.037,"body":"rather than saying Hey, we're,"},{"startTime":1895.037,"endTime":1897.577,"body":"Brian m software development"},{"startTime":1895.037,"endTime":1897.577,"body":"company, and customer A has a"},{"startTime":1897.577,"endTime":1900.457,"body":"big problem with, onboarding"},{"startTime":1897.577,"endTime":1900.457,"body":"because they get accounts"},{"startTime":1900.457,"endTime":1902.347,"body":"and they can't figure out,"},{"startTime":1900.457,"endTime":1902.347,"body":"it's too complex to onboard."},{"startTime":1902.437,"endTime":1902.707,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1902.757,"endTime":1905.547,"body":"well Brian and Om's software"},{"startTime":1902.757,"endTime":1905.547,"body":"development company, Brian and"},{"startTime":1905.547,"endTime":1907.887,"body":"Om's team on Brian, software"},{"startTime":1905.547,"endTime":1907.887,"body":"development company, you're"},{"startTime":1907.887,"endTime":1910.647,"body":"gonna stay on this onboarding"},{"startTime":1907.887,"endTime":1910.647,"body":"problem until you've reduced"},{"startTime":1910.647,"endTime":1914.267,"body":"pain, until we, onboard these"},{"startTime":1910.647,"endTime":1914.267,"body":"users in a certain amount"},{"startTime":1914.267,"endTime":1916.417,"body":"of time or whatever, we stay"},{"startTime":1914.267,"endTime":1916.417,"body":"on it until that business"},{"startTime":1916.417,"endTime":1919.327,"body":"outcome's achieved until"},{"startTime":1916.417,"endTime":1919.327,"body":"we get X amount of people"},{"startTime":1919.477,"endTime":1921.487,"body":"onboarding and staying on the"},{"startTime":1919.477,"endTime":1921.487,"body":"app because the onboarding"},{"startTime":1921.487,"endTime":1923.297,"body":"process is, made a lot easier."},{"startTime":1923.627,"endTime":1924.927,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1925.117,"endTime":1928.447,"body":"if you have good sound"},{"startTime":1925.117,"endTime":1928.447,"body":"objectives, I'll say in, in"},{"startTime":1928.447,"endTime":1931.627,"body":"kind of like a general terms,"},{"startTime":1928.447,"endTime":1931.627,"body":"it could be OKRs, whatever it"},{"startTime":1931.627,"endTime":1933.807,"body":"might be and you focus the team."},{"startTime":1934.107,"endTime":1936.747,"body":"On those and making sure"},{"startTime":1934.107,"endTime":1936.747,"body":"they understand and enact on"},{"startTime":1936.747,"endTime":1940.407,"body":"those, that's a lot better"},{"startTime":1936.747,"endTime":1940.407,"body":"than simply saying, we need"},{"startTime":1940.407,"endTime":1942.207,"body":"everybody to be fully utilized."},{"startTime":1942.207,"endTime":1944.337,"body":"Yeah, because  you'll get"},{"startTime":1942.207,"endTime":1944.337,"body":"that from the get go by"},{"startTime":1944.427,"endTime":1946.747,"body":"having the team inflate"},{"startTime":1944.427,"endTime":1946.747,"body":"what it's gonna take."},{"startTime":1946.807,"endTime":1947.017,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1947.017,"endTime":1947.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1947.497,"endTime":1949.237,"body":"So you're already"},{"startTime":1947.497,"endTime":1949.237,"body":"losing right there."},{"startTime":1949.537,"endTime":1949.867,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1950.107,"endTime":1953.647,"body":"Well I'm gonna award one real"},{"startTime":1950.107,"endTime":1953.647,"body":"point in the four category"},{"startTime":1953.647,"endTime":1956.657,"body":"and one illusory point"},{"startTime":1953.647,"endTime":1956.657,"body":"they look like real points."},{"startTime":1956.662,"endTime":1958.482,"body":"but actually when I calculate"},{"startTime":1956.662,"endTime":1958.482,"body":"at the end, they're not"},{"startTime":1958.542,"endTime":1960.133,"body":"even calculated in because"},{"startTime":1958.542,"endTime":1960.133,"body":"they're not real points."},{"startTime":1960.138,"endTime":1961.782,"body":"They look like real points,"},{"startTime":1960.138,"endTime":1961.782,"body":"but when you look at 'em,"},{"startTime":1961.782,"endTime":1963.397,"body":"they kind of just melt away."},{"startTime":1963.447,"endTime":1964.587,"body":"just like utilization."},{"startTime":1964.647,"endTime":1965.187,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1965.487,"endTime":1965.847,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":1965.847,"endTime":1967.887,"body":"Well I hope we learned"},{"startTime":1965.847,"endTime":1967.887,"body":"something from that category."},{"startTime":1967.987,"endTime":1969.127,"body":"Cross-functional dependencies."},{"startTime":1969.127,"endTime":1970.897,"body":"You wanna talk about"},{"startTime":1969.127,"endTime":1970.897,"body":"cross-functional dependencies?"},{"startTime":1970.957,"endTime":1971.707,"body":"I think it is, right?"},{"startTime":1971.707,"endTime":1972.247,"body":"teams are."},{"startTime":1972.547,"endTime":1975.007,"body":"Not going fast because"},{"startTime":1972.547,"endTime":1975.007,"body":"they're waiting neck"},{"startTime":1975.007,"endTime":1976.597,"body":"deep in muddy waters."},{"startTime":1976.937,"endTime":1980.507,"body":"all you can say here, is product"},{"startTime":1976.937,"endTime":1980.507,"body":"and anyone else management,"},{"startTime":1980.507,"endTime":1983.747,"body":"leadership should have an"},{"startTime":1980.507,"endTime":1983.747,"body":"appreciation for the environment"},{"startTime":1983.747,"endTime":1985.127,"body":"that the teams are operating in."},{"startTime":1985.227,"endTime":1990.237,"body":"their goal should be to free the"},{"startTime":1985.227,"endTime":1990.237,"body":"teams up from these obstacles."},{"startTime":1990.297,"endTime":1993.127,"body":"So the teams can walk,"},{"startTime":1990.297,"endTime":1993.127,"body":"run instead of having"},{"startTime":1993.127,"endTime":1994.437,"body":"to wade through mud."},{"startTime":1994.487,"endTime":1996.467,"body":", this category is"},{"startTime":1994.487,"endTime":1996.467,"body":"kind of about silos."},{"startTime":1996.497,"endTime":1997.523,"body":"and  org structures again."},{"startTime":1997.733,"endTime":1998.213,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1998.213,"endTime":2000.133,"body":"And that's how, we're getting"},{"startTime":1998.213,"endTime":2000.133,"body":"near the end of the podcast"},{"startTime":2000.133,"endTime":2002.083,"body":"when we start talking about"},{"startTime":2000.133,"endTime":2002.083,"body":"organizational structure"},{"startTime":2002.083,"endTime":2004.798,"body":"being terrible for being the"},{"startTime":2002.083,"endTime":2004.798,"body":"culprit, But if I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2004.798,"endTime":2007.048,"body":"try to push back against"},{"startTime":2004.798,"endTime":2007.048,"body":"this one, like I started"},{"startTime":2007.048,"endTime":2009.148,"body":"real early in the podcast"},{"startTime":2007.048,"endTime":2009.148,"body":"saying there are two things"},{"startTime":2009.478,"endTime":2012.418,"body":"out of this, which is like,"},{"startTime":2009.478,"endTime":2012.418,"body":"engineering is not, engineering"},{"startTime":2012.418,"endTime":2013.228,"body":"is not , what'd I say?"},{"startTime":2013.558,"endTime":2015.448,"body":"Product management is broken."},{"startTime":2015.478,"endTime":2017.248,"body":"Or like engineering"},{"startTime":2015.478,"endTime":2017.248,"body":"is all over the place."},{"startTime":2017.248,"endTime":2018.328,"body":"Those are like 90%."},{"startTime":2018.613,"endTime":2019.723,"body":"Or I guess 80%."},{"startTime":2019.753,"endTime":2024.523,"body":"'cause Pato principle I would"},{"startTime":2019.753,"endTime":2024.523,"body":"shuffle this cross-functionality"},{"startTime":2024.523,"endTime":2027.073,"body":"thing under engineering's"},{"startTime":2024.523,"endTime":2027.073,"body":"all over the place."},{"startTime":2027.073,"endTime":2030.523,"body":"You probably would detect this"},{"startTime":2027.073,"endTime":2030.523,"body":"under engineering being like,"},{"startTime":2030.553,"endTime":2032.143,"body":"oh, zero points to this sprint."},{"startTime":2032.143,"endTime":2034.303,"body":"And then 10 points an"},{"startTime":2032.143,"endTime":2034.303,"body":"sprint, and then 30 points an"},{"startTime":2034.453,"endTime":2036.913,"body":"sprint, and then back to two"},{"startTime":2034.453,"endTime":2036.913,"body":"points to sprint after that."},{"startTime":2037.213,"endTime":2039.553,"body":"Like when you look underneath"},{"startTime":2037.213,"endTime":2039.553,"body":"the tablecloth, you'll"},{"startTime":2039.553,"endTime":2042.073,"body":"be like, oh look, a whole"},{"startTime":2039.553,"endTime":2042.073,"body":"bunch of cross team,"},{"startTime":2042.073,"endTime":2043.243,"body":"cross-function dependencies."},{"startTime":2043.293,"endTime":2045.903,"body":"I'm waiting on my DBA to"},{"startTime":2043.293,"endTime":2045.903,"body":"roll out the new table."},{"startTime":2045.903,"endTime":2048.063,"body":"I'm waiting on my DevOps"},{"startTime":2045.903,"endTime":2048.063,"body":"team to roll this thing outta"},{"startTime":2048.063,"endTime":2052.203,"body":"production, and I'm waiting"},{"startTime":2048.063,"endTime":2052.203,"body":"on my senior whatever engineer"},{"startTime":2052.203,"endTime":2053.643,"body":"who isn't even on a team."},{"startTime":2053.643,"endTime":2054.573,"body":"He just goes to"},{"startTime":2053.643,"endTime":2054.573,"body":"meetings all day."},{"startTime":2054.573,"endTime":2057.028,"body":"but for some reason he does all"},{"startTime":2054.573,"endTime":2057.028,"body":"the code reviews,  you can find"},{"startTime":2057.028,"endTime":2058.318,"body":"all these bottlenecks, right?"},{"startTime":2058.318,"endTime":2061.798,"body":"and you know, I think good"},{"startTime":2058.318,"endTime":2061.798,"body":"companies will simply identify"},{"startTime":2061.798,"endTime":2064.948,"body":"these and then say, okay,"},{"startTime":2061.798,"endTime":2064.948,"body":"let's not be wetted to those"},{"startTime":2064.948,"endTime":2068.668,"body":"structures of teams that we have"},{"startTime":2064.948,"endTime":2068.668,"body":"now, let's create teams that are"},{"startTime":2068.668,"endTime":2071.758,"body":"more pliable, more fickle teams"},{"startTime":2068.668,"endTime":2071.758,"body":"It is basically a collection"},{"startTime":2071.758,"endTime":2074.938,"body":"of individuals that are"},{"startTime":2071.758,"endTime":2074.938,"body":"needed to get this stuff done."},{"startTime":2075.158,"endTime":2078.278,"body":"and that might be just maybe"},{"startTime":2075.158,"endTime":2078.278,"body":"for a few sprints, and then"},{"startTime":2078.278,"endTime":2080.618,"body":"you shuffle people again,"},{"startTime":2078.278,"endTime":2080.618,"body":"You can do things like that."},{"startTime":2080.618,"endTime":2083.408,"body":"You can also keep the team"},{"startTime":2080.618,"endTime":2083.408,"body":"together to service what"},{"startTime":2083.408,"endTime":2086.102,"body":"they built,  so they can"},{"startTime":2083.408,"endTime":2086.102,"body":"operationalize it and support"},{"startTime":2086.102,"endTime":2088.812,"body":"it instead of having those"},{"startTime":2086.102,"endTime":2088.812,"body":"handoffs that we often see,"},{"startTime":2088.862,"endTime":2091.982,"body":"So there's things here, but"},{"startTime":2088.862,"endTime":2091.982,"body":"I think those are tangential."},{"startTime":2092.042,"endTime":2094.652,"body":"By this stage, the damage"},{"startTime":2092.042,"endTime":2094.652,"body":"is already done, right?"},{"startTime":2094.982,"endTime":2098.252,"body":"So you have to figure out"},{"startTime":2094.982,"endTime":2098.252,"body":"how you can improve that on a"},{"startTime":2098.252,"endTime":2099.842,"body":"systemic level going forward."},{"startTime":2100.142,"endTime":2103.572,"body":"Well for this category, I will"},{"startTime":2100.142,"endTime":2103.572,"body":"award three pieces of red string"},{"startTime":2103.572,"endTime":2106.622,"body":"against and zero pieces of red"},{"startTime":2103.572,"endTime":2106.622,"body":"string for because we'll see"},{"startTime":2106.622,"endTime":2108.272,"body":"how that tangles out later."},{"startTime":2108.822,"endTime":2109.722,"body":"we'll see how that plays out."},{"startTime":2109.812,"endTime":2110.052,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2110.052,"endTime":2110.322,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2110.622,"endTime":2112.032,"body":"Lemme see what else"},{"startTime":2110.622,"endTime":2112.032,"body":"we got 'cause I think"},{"startTime":2112.032,"endTime":2112.602,"body":"we're almost done."},{"startTime":2112.752,"endTime":2115.362,"body":"Let's try to wrap up"},{"startTime":2112.752,"endTime":2115.362,"body":"with feedback loops."},{"startTime":2115.482,"endTime":2117.732,"body":"I dunno if I'll really have a"},{"startTime":2115.482,"endTime":2117.732,"body":"great against in this category"},{"startTime":2117.732,"endTime":2120.002,"body":"because the two things that"},{"startTime":2117.732,"endTime":2120.002,"body":"I said start is like you have"},{"startTime":2120.032,"endTime":2122.012,"body":"engineering's kind of all"},{"startTime":2120.032,"endTime":2122.012,"body":"over the place and product"},{"startTime":2122.012,"endTime":2124.202,"body":"management is basically"},{"startTime":2122.012,"endTime":2124.202,"body":"non-existent or basically"},{"startTime":2124.202,"endTime":2125.462,"body":"like faux product management."},{"startTime":2125.862,"endTime":2127.542,"body":"that's how you like"},{"startTime":2125.862,"endTime":2127.542,"body":"the feedback loops."},{"startTime":2127.732,"endTime":2129.742,"body":"I don't think you get"},{"startTime":2127.732,"endTime":2129.742,"body":"that in either of these."},{"startTime":2129.742,"endTime":2131.812,"body":"when engineering has a"},{"startTime":2129.742,"endTime":2131.812,"body":"bunch of dysfunctions or"},{"startTime":2131.812,"endTime":2133.432,"body":"product management has"},{"startTime":2131.812,"endTime":2133.432,"body":"a bunch of dysfunctions."},{"startTime":2133.717,"endTime":2136.087,"body":"You're likely to not use"},{"startTime":2133.717,"endTime":2136.087,"body":"feedback loops at all."},{"startTime":2136.567,"endTime":2140.237,"body":"You're likely to be more engaged"},{"startTime":2136.567,"endTime":2140.237,"body":"in silos , and pointing fingers."},{"startTime":2140.237,"endTime":2142.177,"body":"The feedback loops"},{"startTime":2140.237,"endTime":2142.177,"body":"we often think about"},{"startTime":2142.177,"endTime":2145.507,"body":"here would be internal"},{"startTime":2142.177,"endTime":2145.507,"body":"engineering and product,"},{"startTime":2145.707,"endTime":2147.477,"body":"But I broaden that"},{"startTime":2145.707,"endTime":2147.477,"body":"out a bit more."},{"startTime":2147.477,"endTime":2149.637,"body":"Feedback loops"},{"startTime":2147.477,"endTime":2149.637,"body":"with customers too."},{"startTime":2149.827,"endTime":2152.287,"body":"You're probably not gonna"},{"startTime":2149.827,"endTime":2152.287,"body":"have those too often because"},{"startTime":2152.287,"endTime":2154.597,"body":"engineering is focused on"},{"startTime":2152.287,"endTime":2154.597,"body":"what they can get done."},{"startTime":2155.077,"endTime":2158.317,"body":"Park is focused on asking"},{"startTime":2155.077,"endTime":2158.317,"body":"more and more and more from"},{"startTime":2158.317,"endTime":2161.197,"body":"engineering, so where's the"},{"startTime":2158.317,"endTime":2161.197,"body":"space for customers in here?"},{"startTime":2161.467,"endTime":2163.147,"body":"Are they coming to"},{"startTime":2161.467,"endTime":2163.147,"body":"your sprint reviews?"},{"startTime":2163.477,"endTime":2165.247,"body":"Are they even coming to"},{"startTime":2163.477,"endTime":2165.247,"body":"your sprint planning?"},{"startTime":2165.297,"endTime":2167.007,"body":"people go, what customers?"},{"startTime":2167.157,"endTime":2167.787,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2168.057,"endTime":2169.227,"body":"You're building for them."},{"startTime":2169.377,"endTime":2171.477,"body":"So bring them into sprint"},{"startTime":2169.377,"endTime":2171.477,"body":"planning and say, here's"},{"startTime":2171.477,"endTime":2172.557,"body":"what we're planning next."},{"startTime":2172.737,"endTime":2176.037,"body":"At the very least, they're"},{"startTime":2172.737,"endTime":2176.037,"body":"aware of what you're doing and"},{"startTime":2176.037,"endTime":2179.037,"body":"potentially they could even"},{"startTime":2176.037,"endTime":2179.037,"body":"shuffle some priority on you."},{"startTime":2179.037,"endTime":2181.107,"body":"It's their priority that"},{"startTime":2179.037,"endTime":2181.107,"body":"you're operating on anyway."},{"startTime":2181.417,"endTime":2184.147,"body":"You're less likely to have"},{"startTime":2181.417,"endTime":2184.147,"body":"those kinds of feedback"},{"startTime":2184.147,"endTime":2185.047,"body":"loops to begin with."},{"startTime":2185.522,"endTime":2187.802,"body":"when you're in this scenario"},{"startTime":2185.522,"endTime":2187.802,"body":"where engineering is just being"},{"startTime":2187.802,"endTime":2189.992,"body":"whipped to deliver more and more"},{"startTime":2190.042,"endTime":2192.502,"body":"."},{"startTime":2190.042,"endTime":2192.502,"body":"With functioning product"},{"startTime":2192.502,"endTime":2196.347,"body":"be stuck in this type of in, in"},{"startTime":2192.502,"endTime":2196.347,"body":"this kind of like the, the turf"},{"startTime":2196.347,"endTime":2200.427,"body":"wars and the kind of like being"},{"startTime":2196.347,"endTime":2200.427,"body":"stuck internally in discussions"},{"startTime":2200.427,"endTime":2202.547,"body":"and the politics that goes"},{"startTime":2200.427,"endTime":2202.547,"body":"on when the majority of your"},{"startTime":2202.547,"endTime":2203.807,"body":"feedback loops are internal."},{"startTime":2204.107,"endTime":2206.417,"body":"' cause the customer can"},{"startTime":2204.107,"endTime":2206.417,"body":"cut through all that Sure."},{"startTime":2206.687,"endTime":2207.887,"body":"If you let 'em in."},{"startTime":2207.947,"endTime":2208.247,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2208.247,"endTime":2208.397,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2208.427,"endTime":2209.282,"body":"You have to let 'em in."},{"startTime":2209.282,"endTime":2209.507,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2209.777,"endTime":2212.667,"body":"And that's the organization"},{"startTime":2209.777,"endTime":2212.667,"body":"as a whole being vulnerable."},{"startTime":2212.667,"endTime":2212.967,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2213.147,"endTime":2216.237,"body":"Customer comes in, they can see"},{"startTime":2213.147,"endTime":2216.237,"body":"the good, the bad, and the ugly."},{"startTime":2216.657,"endTime":2217.707,"body":"There's nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":2217.767,"endTime":2219.387,"body":"But people aren't"},{"startTime":2217.767,"endTime":2219.387,"body":"comfortable with that."},{"startTime":2219.447,"endTime":2219.657,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2219.777,"endTime":2220.737,"body":"They wanna keep their."},{"startTime":2221.032,"endTime":2222.922,"body":"stuff hidden, the dirty"},{"startTime":2221.032,"endTime":2222.922,"body":"laundry, so to speak."},{"startTime":2223.222,"endTime":2224.032,"body":"That is true."},{"startTime":2224.032,"endTime":2228.182,"body":"So because of that, I'll give"},{"startTime":2224.032,"endTime":2228.182,"body":"10 iterative loops for using"},{"startTime":2228.182,"endTime":2231.112,"body":"feedback loops in learning"},{"startTime":2228.182,"endTime":2231.112,"body":"that involve customers and"},{"startTime":2231.202,"endTime":2233.902,"body":"in the against category,"},{"startTime":2231.202,"endTime":2233.902,"body":"I'll give 10 go-to loops."},{"startTime":2234.202,"endTime":2237.532,"body":"Anywhere they might be"},{"startTime":2234.202,"endTime":2237.532,"body":"completely broken or processes"},{"startTime":2237.532,"endTime":2238.822,"body":"just wait forever, you know?"},{"startTime":2238.862,"endTime":2241.052,"body":"Maybe somebody will come along"},{"startTime":2238.862,"endTime":2241.052,"body":"and develop them eventually."},{"startTime":2241.052,"endTime":2241.532,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":2241.532,"endTime":2243.782,"body":"Maybe one day they'll break"},{"startTime":2241.532,"endTime":2243.782,"body":"out of that infinite loop."},{"startTime":2243.782,"endTime":2244.142,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2244.142,"endTime":2248.102,"body":"the only product management and"},{"startTime":2244.142,"endTime":2248.102,"body":"Agile podcast that talks about"},{"startTime":2248.102,"endTime":2251.222,"body":"go-to loops on the internet,"},{"startTime":2248.102,"endTime":2251.222,"body":"the people see using them."},{"startTime":2251.582,"endTime":2252.122,"body":"I don't think so."},{"startTime":2252.212,"endTime":2252.482,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2252.932,"endTime":2253.622,"body":"I could be wrong."},{"startTime":2254.642,"endTime":2255.482,"body":"Write me a comment."},{"startTime":2255.562,"endTime":2259.157,"body":"So on the statement of we just"},{"startTime":2255.562,"endTime":2259.157,"body":"need engineering to go faster."},{"startTime":2259.507,"endTime":2262.647,"body":", the claim at face value versus,"},{"startTime":2259.507,"endTime":2262.647,"body":"there are other things that"},{"startTime":2262.647,"endTime":2263.757,"body":"need to be inspected here."},{"startTime":2264.127,"endTime":2266.697,"body":"Let's, let's look, plus"},{"startTime":2264.127,"endTime":2266.697,"body":"one worker revolt point"},{"startTime":2266.767,"endTime":2270.157,"body":"for inspecting further"},{"startTime":2266.767,"endTime":2270.157,"body":"and one go to therapy."},{"startTime":2270.157,"endTime":2270.967,"body":"Point against."},{"startTime":2270.967,"endTime":2272.377,"body":"I'm gonna make it"},{"startTime":2270.967,"endTime":2272.377,"body":"a negative point."},{"startTime":2272.557,"endTime":2274.957,"body":"Just because of the"},{"startTime":2272.557,"endTime":2274.957,"body":"time involved I gave one"},{"startTime":2274.957,"endTime":2276.577,"body":"dependency for either side."},{"startTime":2276.577,"endTime":2277.837,"body":"I'm gonna count that"},{"startTime":2276.577,"endTime":2277.837,"body":"as a real thing."},{"startTime":2277.987,"endTime":2283.127,"body":"And then I gave a multi falcon"},{"startTime":2277.987,"endTime":2283.127,"body":"in the against category which is"},{"startTime":2283.127,"endTime":2284.567,"body":"not real so that doesn't count."},{"startTime":2284.747,"endTime":2285.017,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2285.227,"endTime":2288.647,"body":"And so interestingly zero"},{"startTime":2285.227,"endTime":2288.647,"body":"points for in that category."},{"startTime":2288.647,"endTime":2289.727,"body":"I don't know what"},{"startTime":2288.647,"endTime":2289.727,"body":"we did in that one."},{"startTime":2289.782,"endTime":2291.552,"body":"And then a plus"},{"startTime":2289.782,"endTime":2291.552,"body":"one elusory points."},{"startTime":2291.912,"endTime":2294.222,"body":"The sad thing about I lose"},{"startTime":2291.912,"endTime":2294.222,"body":"three points is you can"},{"startTime":2294.222,"endTime":2296.472,"body":"look at them, they look like"},{"startTime":2294.222,"endTime":2296.472,"body":"they're there, but on the"},{"startTime":2296.472,"endTime":2297.642,"body":"tally sheet they're not."},{"startTime":2297.692,"endTime":2300.362,"body":"I gave 10 iterative"},{"startTime":2297.692,"endTime":2300.362,"body":"loops and 10 go-to loops."},{"startTime":2300.452,"endTime":2302.222,"body":"I think we'll all"},{"startTime":2300.452,"endTime":2302.222,"body":"agree those even out."},{"startTime":2302.522,"endTime":2302.732,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":2302.732,"endTime":2306.142,"body":"The problem is when you add"},{"startTime":2302.732,"endTime":2306.142,"body":"zero red string to the 10"},{"startTime":2306.142,"endTime":2308.962,"body":"iterative loops, you still make"},{"startTime":2306.142,"endTime":2308.962,"body":"it through 10 iterative loops."},{"startTime":2309.172,"endTime":2312.742,"body":"But when you add three pieces"},{"startTime":2309.172,"endTime":2312.742,"body":"of red string to 10 go-to loops,"},{"startTime":2312.892,"endTime":2314.722,"body":"you just get a whole bunch"},{"startTime":2312.892,"endTime":2314.722,"body":"of string and a whole bunch"},{"startTime":2314.722,"endTime":2315.872,"body":"of loops fly in in the air."},{"startTime":2315.977,"endTime":2317.602,"body":"Now you're really, now"},{"startTime":2315.977,"endTime":2317.602,"body":"you're really lost."},{"startTime":2317.812,"endTime":2319.582,"body":"Maybe you'll turn to a"},{"startTime":2317.812,"endTime":2319.582,"body":"helicopter and fly off."},{"startTime":2319.632,"endTime":2321.977,"body":"So  the points seem to"},{"startTime":2319.632,"endTime":2321.977,"body":"imply that you need to"},{"startTime":2321.977,"endTime":2324.197,"body":"inspect a lot deeper when"},{"startTime":2321.977,"endTime":2324.197,"body":"you hear this question of"},{"startTime":2324.227,"endTime":2325.637,"body":"engineering's not going faster."},{"startTime":2325.967,"endTime":2328.097,"body":"We've gave you some tips"},{"startTime":2325.967,"endTime":2328.097,"body":"in this podcast to kind"},{"startTime":2328.097,"endTime":2328.967,"body":"of help you get started."},{"startTime":2329.237,"endTime":2330.677,"body":"A little bit if you're"},{"startTime":2329.237,"endTime":2330.677,"body":"on the product management"},{"startTime":2330.677,"endTime":2333.387,"body":"side, the development"},{"startTime":2330.677,"endTime":2333.387,"body":"side from the business."},{"startTime":2333.807,"endTime":2335.607,"body":"I don't know if we've helped"},{"startTime":2333.807,"endTime":2335.607,"body":"any project managers that"},{"startTime":2335.607,"endTime":2338.017,"body":"are product managers in"},{"startTime":2335.607,"endTime":2338.017,"body":"disguise or vice versa."},{"startTime":2338.302,"endTime":2340.512,"body":"But if there are any, let us"},{"startTime":2338.302,"endTime":2340.512,"body":"know what you thought of it."},{"startTime":2340.662,"endTime":2343.452,"body":"And as always, don't forget"},{"startTime":2340.662,"endTime":2343.452,"body":"to like and subscribe."}]}