{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.2,"endTime":1.85,"body":"Hey, I'm wearing"},{"startTime":0.2,"endTime":1.85,"body":"my flowered shirt."},{"startTime":1.95,"endTime":3.42,"body":"That's how you know that"},{"startTime":1.95,"endTime":3.42,"body":"we're gonna be talking about"},{"startTime":3.42,"endTime":4.35,"body":"something special today."},{"startTime":4.65,"endTime":6.6,"body":"It's gonna be a great"},{"startTime":4.65,"endTime":6.6,"body":"discussion today."},{"startTime":6.96,"endTime":10.5,"body":"How do you become the fittest,"},{"startTime":6.96,"endTime":10.5,"body":"baddest product manager ever?"},{"startTime":10.505,"endTime":11.49,"body":"The the baddest dude."},{"startTime":11.49,"endTime":12.96,"body":"The, the peak-est dude."},{"startTime":13.01,"endTime":15.2,"body":"Oh, I prefer bad,"},{"startTime":13.01,"endTime":15.2,"body":"bad, bad, bad dudes."},{"startTime":15.2,"endTime":15.89,"body":"Bad because they bad."},{"startTime":15.89,"endTime":17.81,"body":"There's that old like"},{"startTime":15.89,"endTime":17.81,"body":"eighties video game."},{"startTime":18.68,"endTime":21.055,"body":"Well, we got off track"},{"startTime":18.68,"endTime":21.055,"body":"real early in this podcast."},{"startTime":25.372,"endTime":27.652,"body":"All right, so we're gonna"},{"startTime":25.372,"endTime":27.652,"body":"look at this article today."},{"startTime":27.652,"endTime":29.782,"body":"It was written about five"},{"startTime":27.652,"endTime":29.782,"body":"years ago called how to"},{"startTime":29.782,"endTime":32.302,"body":"Become a Peak Product Manager."},{"startTime":32.302,"endTime":34.762,"body":"I'm gonna put it on the screen"},{"startTime":32.302,"endTime":34.762,"body":"for all you folks viewing it."},{"startTime":35.002,"endTime":38.922,"body":"Written by Ravi, Ravi Mehta"},{"startTime":35.002,"endTime":38.922,"body":"not, not like Meta, the"},{"startTime":38.922,"endTime":41.852,"body":"company spelled completely"},{"startTime":38.922,"endTime":41.852,"body":"differently with a hundred"},{"startTime":41.852,"endTime":45.242,"body":"percent less accusations coming"},{"startTime":41.852,"endTime":45.242,"body":"to a podcast near you soon."},{"startTime":45.722,"endTime":47.742,"body":"But how to be a Peak"},{"startTime":45.722,"endTime":47.742,"body":"Product Manager."},{"startTime":47.782,"endTime":51.012,"body":"In this article, he gives"},{"startTime":47.782,"endTime":51.012,"body":"several competencies of a"},{"startTime":51.012,"endTime":53.352,"body":"product manager and I figured"},{"startTime":51.012,"endTime":53.352,"body":"that's what we're gonna do."},{"startTime":53.352,"endTime":55.752,"body":"We're just gonna basically"},{"startTime":53.352,"endTime":55.752,"body":"peruse the article, look through"},{"startTime":55.752,"endTime":59.342,"body":"the competencies, and kind of"},{"startTime":55.752,"endTime":59.342,"body":"debate them back and forth."},{"startTime":59.642,"endTime":61.232,"body":"Nice quick podcast today."},{"startTime":61.312,"endTime":62.912,"body":"Ravi Mehta's background."},{"startTime":63.332,"endTime":65.072,"body":"Let's talk about"},{"startTime":63.332,"endTime":65.072,"body":"that for one second."},{"startTime":65.162,"endTime":68.842,"body":"So his background  he started"},{"startTime":65.162,"endTime":68.842,"body":"his career as a program"},{"startTime":68.842,"endTime":72.292,"body":"manager at Microsoft back"},{"startTime":68.842,"endTime":72.292,"body":"in the, back in the dark"},{"startTime":72.292,"endTime":74.512,"body":"times before the Empire."},{"startTime":75.292,"endTime":77.332,"body":"Well, the dark times were"},{"startTime":75.292,"endTime":77.332,"body":"not before the Empire."},{"startTime":77.512,"endTime":80.362,"body":"Yeah, back in the"},{"startTime":77.512,"endTime":80.362,"body":"dark times 1998."},{"startTime":80.662,"endTime":82.732,"body":"And then he went"},{"startTime":80.662,"endTime":82.732,"body":"and worked for BCG."},{"startTime":82.942,"endTime":85.942,"body":"Then he was a COO Chief"},{"startTime":82.942,"endTime":85.942,"body":"Operating Officer."},{"startTime":86.182,"endTime":87.412,"body":"Then he was an advisor."},{"startTime":87.682,"endTime":89.692,"body":"He jumped into a"},{"startTime":87.682,"endTime":89.692,"body":"VP of product role."},{"startTime":89.842,"endTime":95.492,"body":"He cooked fries, made milkshakes"},{"startTime":89.842,"endTime":95.492,"body":"he did his own stunts so"},{"startTime":95.492,"endTime":97.772,"body":"VP of customer experience,"},{"startTime":95.492,"endTime":97.772,"body":"and then he was the Chief"},{"startTime":97.772,"endTime":99.542,"body":"Product Officer at Tinder."},{"startTime":99.842,"endTime":102.992,"body":"So that's the career path for"},{"startTime":99.842,"endTime":102.992,"body":"everyone playing the game,"},{"startTime":102.992,"endTime":104.642,"body":"listening along you need to do."},{"startTime":104.942,"endTime":105.752,"body":"That's quite a journey."},{"startTime":106.052,"endTime":107.912,"body":"Yeah, he kinda has"},{"startTime":106.052,"endTime":107.912,"body":"worked everywhere now."},{"startTime":107.962,"endTime":110.572,"body":"He's an angel investor, so I"},{"startTime":107.962,"endTime":110.572,"body":"guess that, I guess that's the"},{"startTime":110.572,"endTime":113.932,"body":"LinkedIn way of telling everyone"},{"startTime":110.572,"endTime":113.932,"body":"you are rich, cool beans."},{"startTime":114.082,"endTime":115.642,"body":"You're making the"},{"startTime":114.082,"endTime":115.642,"body":"editing harder right now."},{"startTime":115.942,"endTime":116.032,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":116.032,"endTime":117.742,"body":"So, let's dive straight"},{"startTime":116.032,"endTime":117.742,"body":"into his article."},{"startTime":117.742,"endTime":121.432,"body":"So he says, years ago he met"},{"startTime":117.742,"endTime":121.432,"body":"an early PM at Microsoft who"},{"startTime":121.432,"endTime":124.282,"body":"helped him develop what we think"},{"startTime":121.432,"endTime":124.282,"body":"of product management today."},{"startTime":124.282,"endTime":124.522,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":124.522,"endTime":126.352,"body":"That's a, that's quite"},{"startTime":124.522,"endTime":126.352,"body":"a claim right there."},{"startTime":126.832,"endTime":130.922,"body":"But he says he says she"},{"startTime":126.832,"endTime":130.922,"body":"told him that as a PM at"},{"startTime":130.922,"endTime":133.262,"body":"Microsoft, which is a program"},{"startTime":130.922,"endTime":133.262,"body":"manager, which is weird."},{"startTime":133.562,"endTime":135.452,"body":"So I guess program managers"},{"startTime":133.562,"endTime":135.452,"body":"and product 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to be"},{"startTime":167.277,"endTime":170.277,"body":"a great product manager."},{"startTime":170.337,"endTime":171.327,"body":"What can go wrong?"},{"startTime":171.387,"endTime":171.867,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":172.047,"endTime":175.107,"body":"The amount of times that"},{"startTime":172.047,"endTime":175.107,"body":"this image has been reused"},{"startTime":175.107,"endTime":177.507,"body":"by people though, and"},{"startTime":175.107,"endTime":177.507,"body":"that the fact that it's"},{"startTime":177.507,"endTime":180.477,"body":"permeated the, the, the meta."},{"startTime":180.777,"endTime":181.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":181.137,"endTime":182.787,"body":"Means that like it"},{"startTime":181.137,"endTime":182.787,"body":"needs to be addressed."},{"startTime":182.787,"endTime":184.947,"body":"Like whether he actually knows"},{"startTime":182.787,"endTime":184.947,"body":"what he's talking about or not,"},{"startTime":184.947,"endTime":187.917,"body":"we're just gonna skip right over"},{"startTime":184.947,"endTime":187.917,"body":"that and say it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":188.127,"endTime":189.537,"body":"This image is part"},{"startTime":188.127,"endTime":189.537,"body":"of the culture."},{"startTime":189.837,"endTime":190.677,"body":"We're gonna talk about it."},{"startTime":190.977,"endTime":191.247,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":191.607,"endTime":191.907,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":191.997,"endTime":193.137,"body":"So let's dig in."},{"startTime":193.287,"endTime":195.627,"body":"He says he's codified the skills"},{"startTime":193.287,"endTime":195.627,"body":"that it takes to be a really"},{"startTime":195.627,"endTime":198.447,"body":"great PM into 12 competencies."},{"startTime":198.627,"endTime":201.207,"body":"He's organized those 12"},{"startTime":198.627,"endTime":201.207,"body":"competencies into four"},{"startTime":201.207,"endTime":203.157,"body":"areas and those four areas."},{"startTime":203.157,"endTime":205.297,"body":"Again, for those people that are"},{"startTime":203.157,"endTime":205.297,"body":"listening, i'm gonna go ahead"},{"startTime":205.297,"endTime":209.587,"body":"and throw the image that he has"},{"startTime":205.297,"endTime":209.587,"body":"in his blog here on the screen."},{"startTime":209.857,"endTime":213.397,"body":"The four main competencies"},{"startTime":209.857,"endTime":213.397,"body":"are product execution,"},{"startTime":213.847,"endTime":214.867,"body":"customer insight."},{"startTime":215.212,"endTime":218.992,"body":"Product strategy and influencing"},{"startTime":215.212,"endTime":218.992,"body":"people in no particular order."},{"startTime":219.082,"endTime":220.222,"body":"In no particular order at all."},{"startTime":220.272,"endTime":223.752,"body":"So under that, he has"},{"startTime":220.272,"endTime":223.752,"body":"three subgroups of topics."},{"startTime":224.052,"endTime":224.322,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":224.652,"endTime":226.422,"body":"And we're just gonna follow"},{"startTime":224.652,"endTime":226.422,"body":"his, we're gonna follow"},{"startTime":226.422,"endTime":229.392,"body":"his outline here and we're"},{"startTime":226.422,"endTime":229.392,"body":"just gonna go through the"},{"startTime":229.392,"endTime":232.452,"body":"article 'cause he breaks each"},{"startTime":229.392,"endTime":232.452,"body":"one down level importance."},{"startTime":232.452,"endTime":236.832,"body":"So I have a few questions to"},{"startTime":232.452,"endTime":236.832,"body":"bound this podcast, and that's"},{"startTime":236.832,"endTime":237.822,"body":"how we're gonna move forward."},{"startTime":237.872,"endTime":240.452,"body":"My questions are, do product"},{"startTime":237.872,"endTime":240.452,"body":"managers really need this"},{"startTime":240.452,"endTime":241.442,"body":"skill in our opinion?"},{"startTime":241.772,"endTime":243.392,"body":"'cause he's saying these"},{"startTime":241.772,"endTime":243.392,"body":"are the competencies."},{"startTime":243.442,"endTime":246.592,"body":"The wheel by which product"},{"startTime":243.442,"endTime":246.592,"body":"managers are judged."},{"startTime":246.622,"endTime":248.702,"body":"You break a deal, you"},{"startTime":246.622,"endTime":248.702,"body":"spin the wheel, that's"},{"startTime":248.702,"endTime":251.042,"body":"the Tina Turner rules that"},{"startTime":248.702,"endTime":251.042,"body":"we fall on the podcast."},{"startTime":251.472,"endTime":253.932,"body":"How, how, like, do they"},{"startTime":251.472,"endTime":253.932,"body":"really need this skill?"},{"startTime":253.992,"endTime":254.562,"body":"Like, is it real?"},{"startTime":254.562,"endTime":255.312,"body":"Do they really need it?"},{"startTime":255.312,"endTime":256.212,"body":"That's a great question."},{"startTime":256.212,"endTime":257.832,"body":"how often will they use it?"},{"startTime":258.202,"endTime":261.462,"body":"In their position, bounded by"},{"startTime":258.202,"endTime":261.462,"body":"their position, Do they have the"},{"startTime":261.462,"endTime":265.482,"body":"ability to coach on this skill,"},{"startTime":261.462,"endTime":265.482,"body":"which will be a less important"},{"startTime":265.482,"endTime":268.962,"body":"question for individual"},{"startTime":265.482,"endTime":268.962,"body":"contributor PMs maybe."},{"startTime":269.202,"endTime":269.712,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":269.892,"endTime":273.832,"body":"Okay, Well let's go to the first"},{"startTime":269.892,"endTime":273.832,"body":"category, product execution."},{"startTime":273.832,"endTime":277.132,"body":"So he says the foundation, the"},{"startTime":273.832,"endTime":277.132,"body":"foundation of successful product"},{"startTime":277.132,"endTime":279.592,"body":"management is the ability to"},{"startTime":277.132,"endTime":279.592,"body":"work with a cross-functional"},{"startTime":279.592,"endTime":283.822,"body":"team to define, build and launch"},{"startTime":279.592,"endTime":283.822,"body":"well-designed, stable products."},{"startTime":284.182,"endTime":284.992,"body":"Peak PMs."},{"startTime":285.052,"endTime":285.802,"body":"Peak PMs."},{"startTime":285.802,"endTime":286.582,"body":"I like, I like it."},{"startTime":286.792,"endTime":287.332,"body":"It's peak."},{"startTime":287.392,"endTime":287.992,"body":"I'm peaking."},{"startTime":288.922,"endTime":292.372,"body":"Yeah, speaking PMs"},{"startTime":288.922,"endTime":292.372,"body":"speaking's a journey."},{"startTime":292.372,"endTime":295.342,"body":"They strive to"},{"startTime":292.372,"endTime":295.342,"body":"execute flawlessly."},{"startTime":295.522,"endTime":297.652,"body":"They know there's already"},{"startTime":295.522,"endTime":297.652,"body":"enough risk in understanding"},{"startTime":297.652,"endTime":300.172,"body":"customer needs and crafting"},{"startTime":297.652,"endTime":300.172,"body":"strategy around those needs."},{"startTime":300.172,"endTime":304.852,"body":"They can't afford unforced"},{"startTime":300.172,"endTime":304.852,"body":"errors, which is weird because"},{"startTime":304.852,"endTime":307.042,"body":"that means there's such thing"},{"startTime":304.852,"endTime":307.042,"body":"as a forced, forced error."},{"startTime":307.102,"endTime":307.792,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":307.792,"endTime":308.362,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":308.722,"endTime":309.172,"body":"That's weird."},{"startTime":309.422,"endTime":310.352,"body":"So execution."},{"startTime":310.352,"endTime":314.252,"body":"So we are going straight into"},{"startTime":310.352,"endTime":314.252,"body":"execution and the way he laid"},{"startTime":314.252,"endTime":318.902,"body":"out his thesis here is by"},{"startTime":314.252,"endTime":318.902,"body":"having a spectrum of, I guess"},{"startTime":318.902,"endTime":322.502,"body":"it's a spectrum of experience"},{"startTime":318.902,"endTime":322.502,"body":"within product, Right."},{"startTime":322.562,"endTime":325.322,"body":"And then some kind of"},{"startTime":322.562,"endTime":325.322,"body":"a color coding scheme,"},{"startTime":325.372,"endTime":327.462,"body":"Where the colors fade out."},{"startTime":327.762,"endTime":332.402,"body":"I think it's either relevance"},{"startTime":327.762,"endTime":332.402,"body":"or ability or expertise."},{"startTime":332.522,"endTime":333.452,"body":"I'm not quite sure."},{"startTime":333.452,"endTime":334.622,"body":"He never really gives a legend"},{"startTime":334.622,"endTime":336.062,"body":"for the people"},{"startTime":334.622,"endTime":336.062,"body":"listening to this."},{"startTime":336.362,"endTime":340.952,"body":"He has three breakdowns under"},{"startTime":336.362,"endTime":340.952,"body":"the product execution category."},{"startTime":340.952,"endTime":342.212,"body":"We're starting with"},{"startTime":340.952,"endTime":342.212,"body":"product execution."},{"startTime":342.212,"endTime":344.582,"body":"'cause that's like most"},{"startTime":342.212,"endTime":344.582,"body":"people listen to the podcast."},{"startTime":344.792,"endTime":345.542,"body":"That's where they are."},{"startTime":345.542,"endTime":347.612,"body":"That's their, that"},{"startTime":345.542,"endTime":347.612,"body":"that's their swim lane."},{"startTime":347.642,"endTime":347.792,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":348.032,"endTime":350.582,"body":"So he has three sub"},{"startTime":348.032,"endTime":350.582,"body":"categories in here."},{"startTime":350.672,"endTime":353.942,"body":"He has feature specification,"},{"startTime":350.672,"endTime":353.942,"body":"product delivery, and"},{"startTime":353.942,"endTime":355.022,"body":"product quality 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delivering."},{"startTime":372.742,"endTime":373.432,"body":"Quality."},{"startTime":373.892,"endTime":376.802,"body":"the last one, feature"},{"startTime":373.892,"endTime":376.802,"body":"specification is the ability"},{"startTime":376.802,"endTime":379.982,"body":"to take things that you're"},{"startTime":376.802,"endTime":379.982,"body":"being told in store form"},{"startTime":379.982,"endTime":382.862,"body":"and actually break them into"},{"startTime":379.982,"endTime":382.862,"body":"larger containers of features."},{"startTime":383.252,"endTime":384.122,"body":"That can be delivered."},{"startTime":384.192,"endTime":385.632,"body":"The juicy stuff is asking."},{"startTime":385.932,"endTime":386.382,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":386.652,"endTime":390.192,"body":"So for, let's start with"},{"startTime":386.652,"endTime":390.192,"body":"product delivery that that's,"},{"startTime":390.192,"endTime":391.542,"body":"that's the easiest one."},{"startTime":391.752,"endTime":391.962,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":392.322,"endTime":393.672,"body":"Under product execution."},{"startTime":393.972,"endTime":395.382,"body":"Under product execution."},{"startTime":395.682,"endTime":399.762,"body":"Product delivery, he's got"},{"startTime":395.682,"endTime":399.762,"body":"the, a PM sort of grayed out."},{"startTime":400.152,"endTime":402.072,"body":"The director and the senior"},{"startTime":400.152,"endTime":402.072,"body":"director are sort of grayed"},{"startTime":402.072,"endTime":404.172,"body":"out and the VP is completely,"},{"startTime":402.072,"endTime":404.172,"body":"completely grayed out."},{"startTime":404.172,"endTime":404.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":404.402,"endTime":408.302,"body":"so he has several categories"},{"startTime":404.402,"endTime":408.302,"body":"on here to, I guess also,"},{"startTime":408.332,"endTime":411.542,"body":"well first to back up 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He has seven"},{"startTime":415.272,"endTime":417.822,"body":"different levels on here."},{"startTime":418.182,"endTime":420.172,"body":"Now, this probably aligns"},{"startTime":418.182,"endTime":420.172,"body":"with the Silicon Valley"},{"startTime":420.172,"endTime":423.712,"body":"leveling system where you"},{"startTime":420.172,"endTime":423.712,"body":"come in as an APM out of the"},{"startTime":423.712,"endTime":426.892,"body":"MBA pipeline through school,"},{"startTime":423.712,"endTime":426.892,"body":"and then you become a solid"},{"startTime":426.892,"endTime":427.882,"body":"individual contributor."},{"startTime":427.882,"endTime":430.162,"body":"You can sit on your own and"},{"startTime":427.882,"endTime":430.162,"body":"do stuff and be trusted or"},{"startTime":430.162,"endTime":432.082,"body":"whatever, but not that trusted."},{"startTime":432.082,"endTime":434.872,"body":"And then the senior PM is the"},{"startTime":432.082,"endTime":434.872,"body":"real individual contributor."},{"startTime":434.877,"endTime":438.617,"body":"The group product manager"},{"startTime":434.877,"endTime":438.617,"body":"has some kind of team lead"},{"startTime":438.617,"endTime":441.102,"body":"supervisory function where"},{"startTime":438.617,"endTime":441.102,"body":"they're Other PMs, They're"},{"startTime":441.102,"endTime":441.927,"body":"not really a manager."},{"startTime":441.977,"endTime":445.367,"body":"And then the director is the"},{"startTime":441.977,"endTime":445.367,"body":"people leader, hiring teams"},{"startTime":445.367,"endTime":446.417,"body":"of people, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":446.897,"endTime":449.297,"body":"Senior director is the"},{"startTime":446.897,"endTime":449.297,"body":"director of directors, and"},{"startTime":449.297,"endTime":451.427,"body":"then VP would be like the"},{"startTime":449.297,"endTime":451.427,"body":"equivalent of our chief"},{"startTime":451.427,"endTime":452.387,"body":"product officer type thing."},{"startTime":452.597,"endTime":454.127,"body":"So for the purpose of"},{"startTime":452.597,"endTime":454.127,"body":"this podcast, we don't"},{"startTime":454.127,"endTime":457.367,"body":"need 17 billion different"},{"startTime":454.127,"endTime":457.367,"body":"categories right there."},{"startTime":457.417,"endTime":462.277,"body":"We really only need three main"},{"startTime":457.417,"endTime":462.277,"body":"divisions of product management."},{"startTime":462.277,"endTime":465.157,"body":"We need the individual"},{"startTime":462.277,"endTime":465.157,"body":"contributor PM no matter if"},{"startTime":465.157,"endTime":468.777,"body":"they're a pm, pm, senior,"},{"startTime":465.157,"endTime":468.777,"body":"pm, we need a product"},{"startTime":468.777,"endTime":471.567,"body":"leader, meaning they directly"},{"startTime":468.777,"endTime":471.567,"body":"supervise people, right?"},{"startTime":471.567,"endTime":473.607,"body":"Whether they hire people"},{"startTime":471.567,"endTime":473.607,"body":"or they're just in a lead"},{"startTime":473.607,"endTime":475.347,"body":"capacity, it doesn't really"},{"startTime":473.607,"endTime":475.347,"body":"matter if the group PM"},{"startTime":475.347,"endTime":476.217,"body":"director, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":476.457,"endTime":480.687,"body":"And we need a VP slash"},{"startTime":476.457,"endTime":480.687,"body":"CPO level, basically."},{"startTime":480.687,"endTime":481.797,"body":"Exec or leadership level, right?"},{"startTime":481.797,"endTime":482.127,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":482.157,"endTime":483.507,"body":"We need those three levels."},{"startTime":483.507,"endTime":486.957,"body":"So we're gonna reinterpret"},{"startTime":483.507,"endTime":486.957,"body":"on the fly for the future"},{"startTime":486.957,"endTime":487.737,"body":"of this discussion."},{"startTime":488.007,"endTime":493.407,"body":"All of his levels to ic, product"},{"startTime":488.007,"endTime":493.407,"body":"leader, CPO, those, those are"},{"startTime":493.407,"endTime":494.877,"body":"our like simplicity level."},{"startTime":494.877,"endTime":498.457,"body":"So for product delivery, he"},{"startTime":494.877,"endTime":498.457,"body":"says, this is mainly an IC"},{"startTime":498.457,"endTime":501.697,"body":"thing with a little bit of"},{"startTime":498.457,"endTime":501.697,"body":"the product leaders doing"},{"startTime":501.697,"endTime":505.207,"body":"it, and then it's gone at the"},{"startTime":501.697,"endTime":505.207,"body":"CPO level product delivery."},{"startTime":505.567,"endTime":509.257,"body":"I think if he's coming at it"},{"startTime":505.567,"endTime":509.257,"body":"from the perspective of ability."},{"startTime":509.557,"endTime":512.167,"body":"A PM, they're green, basically."},{"startTime":512.227,"endTime":513.277,"body":"Junior people."},{"startTime":513.277,"endTime":513.577,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":513.937,"endTime":514.357,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":514.357,"endTime":515.257,"body":"I can go with that."},{"startTime":515.527,"endTime":518.227,"body":"Ics we're, we're, we're"},{"startTime":515.527,"endTime":518.227,"body":"looking at ICS here, right?"},{"startTime":518.377,"endTime":518.437,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":518.467,"endTime":521.857,"body":"So maybe as you progress"},{"startTime":518.467,"endTime":521.857,"body":"from the lowest level on the"},{"startTime":521.857,"endTime":525.127,"body":"spectrum here, that is laid"},{"startTime":521.857,"endTime":525.127,"body":"out a PMM toward PM and a"},{"startTime":525.127,"endTime":528.487,"body":"senior pm, you're now becoming"},{"startTime":525.127,"endTime":528.487,"body":"more and more proficient,"},{"startTime":528.487,"endTime":530.987,"body":"is how I'm interpreting"},{"startTime":528.487,"endTime":530.987,"body":"that at product delivery."},{"startTime":531.287,"endTime":533.087,"body":"I'm fine with his levels"},{"startTime":531.287,"endTime":533.087,"body":"for product delivery."},{"startTime":533.087,"endTime":535.607,"body":"he says Hey, when you're an"},{"startTime":533.087,"endTime":535.607,"body":"a PM, you're junior at this."},{"startTime":535.657,"endTime":538.087,"body":"even if we transfer to our"},{"startTime":535.657,"endTime":538.087,"body":"levels and you lose a little"},{"startTime":538.087,"endTime":541.317,"body":"bit in the translation to say"},{"startTime":538.087,"endTime":541.317,"body":"a PM should be good at this."},{"startTime":541.377,"endTime":544.537,"body":"And then as you get further up"},{"startTime":541.377,"endTime":544.537,"body":"into director or senior director"},{"startTime":544.537,"endTime":546.877,"body":"or stuff like that, it's okay"},{"startTime":544.537,"endTime":546.877,"body":"for them to not really know"},{"startTime":546.877,"endTime":549.267,"body":"how to work with engineering"},{"startTime":546.877,"endTime":549.267,"body":"teams, design that, , the"},{"startTime":549.267,"endTime":550.957,"body":"Holy Trinity for Marty Cagan."},{"startTime":550.977,"endTime":551.247,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":551.277,"endTime":551.637,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":551.937,"endTime":554.557,"body":"So let's, we both agree we're,"},{"startTime":551.937,"endTime":554.557,"body":"we're kind of in alignment"},{"startTime":554.557,"endTime":555.547,"body":"with what he's saying here."},{"startTime":555.847,"endTime":558.577,"body":"Product delivery, he split"},{"startTime":555.847,"endTime":558.577,"body":"product delivery into product"},{"startTime":558.577,"endTime":562.057,"body":"quality assurance and product"},{"startTime":558.577,"endTime":562.057,"body":"delivery as separate functions."},{"startTime":562.357,"endTime":566.917,"body":"And interesting is he has"},{"startTime":562.357,"endTime":566.917,"body":"even less of the senior"},{"startTime":566.917,"endTime":568.627,"body":"levels involved in product qa."},{"startTime":569.257,"endTime":570.217,"body":"That's interesting to me."},{"startTime":570.247,"endTime":571.117,"body":"That is interesting."},{"startTime":571.117,"endTime":572.917,"body":"But the flip side"},{"startTime":571.117,"endTime":572.917,"body":"is interesting too."},{"startTime":572.917,"endTime":575.827,"body":"He has the opposite"},{"startTime":572.917,"endTime":575.827,"body":"end of the spectrum."},{"startTime":576.127,"endTime":577.627,"body":"The darkest in in hue."},{"startTime":577.627,"endTime":577.957,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":577.957,"endTime":580.207,"body":"So, I mean, I'm kind of, I'm"},{"startTime":577.957,"endTime":580.207,"body":"kind of with him on this one."},{"startTime":580.207,"endTime":581.222,"body":"I think he nailed this one."},{"startTime":581.222,"endTime":582.032,"body":"I think this is right."},{"startTime":582.032,"endTime":584.822,"body":"It's like the APMs, they're"},{"startTime":582.032,"endTime":584.822,"body":"gonna make sure that everything"},{"startTime":584.822,"endTime":587.372,"body":"that they're told, they're"},{"startTime":584.822,"endTime":587.372,"body":"doing what they're told and"},{"startTime":587.372,"endTime":588.932,"body":"they're gonna be ticking"},{"startTime":587.372,"endTime":588.932,"body":"all the boxes, making sure"},{"startTime":588.932,"endTime":590.162,"body":"everything works right."},{"startTime":590.212,"endTime":592.582,"body":"If you're not advancing in"},{"startTime":590.212,"endTime":592.582,"body":"a lot of these other realms."},{"startTime":592.882,"endTime":594.562,"body":"This is where you"},{"startTime":592.882,"endTime":594.562,"body":"could make an impact."},{"startTime":594.772,"endTime":595.642,"body":"You could Absolutely."},{"startTime":595.642,"endTime":595.787,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":595.942,"endTime":597.692,"body":"you're just beginning"},{"startTime":595.942,"endTime":597.692,"body":"your journey there."},{"startTime":597.692,"endTime":599.482,"body":"and then leadership at"},{"startTime":597.692,"endTime":599.482,"body":"the other end really"},{"startTime":599.482,"endTime":600.292,"body":"don't care about that."},{"startTime":600.592,"endTime":602.902,"body":"Feature specification it's"},{"startTime":600.592,"endTime":602.902,"body":"interesting because it has,"},{"startTime":602.962,"endTime":607.492,"body":"it has a very similar fade"},{"startTime":602.962,"endTime":607.492,"body":"out to the QA track mm-hmm."},{"startTime":607.762,"endTime":610.732,"body":"Where once you get above,"},{"startTime":607.762,"endTime":610.732,"body":"like actually even fades out"},{"startTime":610.852,"endTime":616.342,"body":"sooner, where a PM pm, you"},{"startTime":610.852,"endTime":616.342,"body":"know, the, the ICPM seems"},{"startTime":616.342,"endTime":619.342,"body":"to have this nailed in his,"},{"startTime":616.342,"endTime":619.342,"body":"in his estimation, and then"},{"startTime":619.342,"endTime":622.612,"body":"it starts fading out in"},{"startTime":619.342,"endTime":622.612,"body":"product leader quite a bit."},{"startTime":622.672,"endTime":622.762,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":622.762,"endTime":625.882,"body":"And then it's gone by the time"},{"startTime":622.762,"endTime":625.882,"body":"you get to the VP CPO level."},{"startTime":625.912,"endTime":626.152,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":626.392,"endTime":629.442,"body":"So you're saying someone"},{"startTime":626.392,"endTime":629.442,"body":"who's up here just throwing"},{"startTime":629.442,"endTime":632.202,"body":"out strategy and like living"},{"startTime":629.442,"endTime":632.202,"body":"at the executive level."},{"startTime":632.502,"endTime":636.072,"body":"He's saying like they, they just"},{"startTime":632.502,"endTime":636.072,"body":"have no time to do this skill."},{"startTime":636.252,"endTime":638.412,"body":"I mean, maybe even if they"},{"startTime":636.252,"endTime":638.412,"body":"did this skill in the past,"},{"startTime":638.652,"endTime":639.792,"body":"they have no time to do it."},{"startTime":639.972,"endTime":640.932,"body":"They're not gonna do it."},{"startTime":641.232,"endTime":642.192,"body":"You know, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":642.252,"endTime":644.472,"body":"Well, they're delegating"},{"startTime":642.252,"endTime":644.472,"body":"it to all these gazillion"},{"startTime":644.472,"endTime":645.342,"body":"layers underneath."},{"startTime":645.342,"endTime":645.552,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":645.852,"endTime":647.892,"body":"It sounds funny to say."},{"startTime":647.892,"endTime":650.802,"body":"I agree with this because the"},{"startTime":647.892,"endTime":650.802,"body":"scary thing about this feature"},{"startTime":650.802,"endTime":654.552,"body":"specification, like fading out"},{"startTime":650.802,"endTime":654.552,"body":"at the group product level."},{"startTime":654.792,"endTime":656.802,"body":"'cause the group product"},{"startTime":654.792,"endTime":656.802,"body":"level is, again, these"},{"startTime":656.802,"endTime":659.892,"body":"are like your product"},{"startTime":656.802,"endTime":659.892,"body":"team lead types of folks."},{"startTime":660.252,"endTime":660.342,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":660.343,"endTime":662.682,"body":"And then he's even fading"},{"startTime":660.343,"endTime":662.682,"body":"out of the director level."},{"startTime":662.982,"endTime":665.982,"body":"So what happens, like,"},{"startTime":662.982,"endTime":665.982,"body":"who coaches the APMs?"},{"startTime":666.132,"endTime":667.872,"body":"He's saying the APMs"},{"startTime":666.132,"endTime":667.872,"body":"are really good at this."},{"startTime":668.322,"endTime":668.592,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":668.592,"endTime":670.332,"body":"I mean, who coaches them"},{"startTime":668.592,"endTime":670.332,"body":"to be really good at this?"},{"startTime":670.332,"endTime":672.672,"body":"Who's checking in with them"},{"startTime":670.332,"endTime":672.672,"body":"being really good at this?"},{"startTime":672.672,"endTime":674.112,"body":"I guess they're hired"},{"startTime":672.672,"endTime":674.112,"body":"into it, I guess."},{"startTime":674.482,"endTime":677.392,"body":". I mean, or APMs are"},{"startTime":674.482,"endTime":677.392,"body":"typically green."},{"startTime":677.812,"endTime":681.052,"body":"They come in with no or"},{"startTime":677.812,"endTime":681.052,"body":"little experience really."},{"startTime":681.532,"endTime":683.992,"body":"And they're suddenly hitting"},{"startTime":681.532,"endTime":683.992,"body":"the ground running with."},{"startTime":684.292,"endTime":685.102,"body":". Feature specs."},{"startTime":685.132,"endTime":685.312,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":685.372,"endTime":687.562,"body":"Defining functionality,"},{"startTime":685.372,"endTime":687.562,"body":"setting goals."},{"startTime":687.862,"endTime":688.402,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":688.702,"endTime":690.382,"body":"I mean, or it's the senior PMs."},{"startTime":690.382,"endTime":693.022,"body":"This is like the, the I"},{"startTime":690.382,"endTime":693.022,"body":"pmms are basically like"},{"startTime":693.072,"endTime":696.432,"body":"keeping themselves on track,"},{"startTime":693.072,"endTime":696.432,"body":"keeping themselves honest,"},{"startTime":696.732,"endTime":698.532,"body":"you know, checking each"},{"startTime":696.732,"endTime":698.532,"body":"other, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":698.562,"endTime":698.832,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":699.162,"endTime":701.562,"body":"This is probably the"},{"startTime":699.162,"endTime":701.562,"body":"category I'm going to agree"},{"startTime":701.562,"endTime":704.142,"body":"with him the most on that."},{"startTime":704.142,"endTime":705.672,"body":"Yes, these skills do fade out."},{"startTime":705.912,"endTime":709.302,"body":"I, I do worry though about"},{"startTime":705.912,"endTime":709.302,"body":"the feature specification"},{"startTime":709.302,"endTime":711.732,"body":"and like quality assurance"},{"startTime":709.302,"endTime":711.732,"body":"being completely missing"},{"startTime":711.732,"endTime":715.662,"body":"at high levels which is"},{"startTime":711.732,"endTime":715.662,"body":"actually in line with my"},{"startTime":715.992,"endTime":717.372,"body":"actual experience, right?"},{"startTime":717.372,"endTime":719.232,"body":"These things are missing at"},{"startTime":717.372,"endTime":719.232,"body":"high level, that they are,"},{"startTime":719.292,"endTime":721.992,"body":"the people at high level are"},{"startTime":719.292,"endTime":721.992,"body":"like, I just asked you to add"},{"startTime":721.992,"endTime":723.342,"body":"this thing to the application."},{"startTime":723.342,"endTime":724.212,"body":"Why is it taking so long?"},{"startTime":724.212,"endTime":724.812,"body":"I don't understand."},{"startTime":724.812,"endTime":728.112,"body":"I was like, actually, the"},{"startTime":724.812,"endTime":728.112,"body":"thing you asked is like five"},{"startTime":728.112,"endTime":731.402,"body":"features . it's gonna take"},{"startTime":728.112,"endTime":731.402,"body":"us a month or so to deliver."},{"startTime":731.452,"endTime":733.762,"body":"And they don't understand"},{"startTime":731.452,"endTime":733.762,"body":"because they, they truly don't"},{"startTime":733.762,"endTime":736.552,"body":"understand, you know, because"},{"startTime":733.762,"endTime":736.552,"body":"they've only ever worked sales"},{"startTime":736.552,"endTime":739.432,"body":"in their previous career, or"},{"startTime":736.552,"endTime":739.432,"body":"they worked as a chief revenue"},{"startTime":739.432,"endTime":741.472,"body":"officer, now they got hired"},{"startTime":739.432,"endTime":741.472,"body":"and you're a small company"},{"startTime":741.472,"endTime":742.582,"body":"as a chief product officer."},{"startTime":742.662,"endTime":746.172,"body":"So you bring up a good point"},{"startTime":742.662,"endTime":746.172,"body":"here, So when somebody's"},{"startTime":746.172,"endTime":748.962,"body":"at a certain level is how"},{"startTime":746.172,"endTime":748.962,"body":"they got there, right?"},{"startTime":749.022,"endTime":751.962,"body":"Did they come up through"},{"startTime":749.022,"endTime":751.962,"body":"the ranks doing the, the"},{"startTime":751.962,"endTime":753.282,"body":"craft, the trade Yeah."},{"startTime":753.342,"endTime":755.352,"body":"And learning the stuff."},{"startTime":755.802,"endTime":758.292,"body":"And now they've evolved,"},{"startTime":755.802,"endTime":758.292,"body":"beyond the day-to-day."},{"startTime":758.622,"endTime":759.582,"body":"That's one scenario."},{"startTime":759.582,"endTime":762.492,"body":"The other scenario is, yeah,"},{"startTime":759.582,"endTime":762.492,"body":"they get hired in either"},{"startTime":762.492,"endTime":765.732,"body":"out to B schools or other,"},{"startTime":762.492,"endTime":765.732,"body":"you know, other venues."},{"startTime":765.812,"endTime":767.912,"body":". Jump ship from one"},{"startTime":765.812,"endTime":767.912,"body":"company to another."},{"startTime":768.392,"endTime":771.272,"body":"Cross roles like you"},{"startTime":768.392,"endTime":771.272,"body":"said, you know, COO now"},{"startTime":771.272,"endTime":772.862,"body":"you're a CPO or whatever."},{"startTime":773.342,"endTime":776.692,"body":"So , when you are in that"},{"startTime":773.342,"endTime":776.692,"body":"situation, what happens to."},{"startTime":777.082,"endTime":780.562,"body":"Not only those immediately"},{"startTime":777.082,"endTime":780.562,"body":"below them, but then, you"},{"startTime":780.562,"endTime":781.672,"body":"know, the domino effect, right?"},{"startTime":781.672,"endTime":781.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":781.872,"endTime":782.742,"body":"How do you get skills?"},{"startTime":782.742,"endTime":784.362,"body":"How do you get mentored, right?"},{"startTime":784.362,"endTime":785.202,"body":"How do you learn?"},{"startTime":785.652,"endTime":788.352,"body":"So all of those questions"},{"startTime":785.652,"endTime":788.352,"body":"are relevant here, the more"},{"startTime":788.352,"endTime":790.062,"body":"layers you have like this."},{"startTime":790.542,"endTime":791.382,"body":"Well let me think about this."},{"startTime":791.382,"endTime":793.962,"body":"'cause I was gonna say, the"},{"startTime":791.382,"endTime":793.962,"body":"more layers you have, the more"},{"startTime":793.962,"endTime":796.752,"body":"apparent it would be, but now"},{"startTime":793.962,"endTime":796.752,"body":"I'm checking myself thinking"},{"startTime":796.752,"endTime":798.042,"body":"it might be less apparent."},{"startTime":798.042,"endTime":798.792,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":798.792,"endTime":801.252,"body":"Because there's more"},{"startTime":798.792,"endTime":801.252,"body":"noise to get buried into."},{"startTime":801.252,"endTime":803.242,"body":"Well, I was gonna say, with"},{"startTime":801.252,"endTime":803.242,"body":"this particular thing, when"},{"startTime":803.242,"endTime":808.282,"body":"you hire a lot of people"},{"startTime":803.242,"endTime":808.282,"body":"that don't have like, feature"},{"startTime":808.282,"endTime":809.457,"body":"specifications, for example."},{"startTime":809.757,"endTime":812.717,"body":"In this, in this, like, we"},{"startTime":809.757,"endTime":812.717,"body":"did a podcast on like, should"},{"startTime":812.717,"endTime":814.907,"body":"I hire a business domain?"},{"startTime":814.967,"endTime":816.497,"body":"PM or a pm Right."},{"startTime":816.797,"endTime":818.627,"body":"Sorry, I should go find"},{"startTime":816.797,"endTime":818.627,"body":"the podcast somewhere,"},{"startTime":818.627,"endTime":820.577,"body":"but I like, I'm trying to"},{"startTime":818.627,"endTime":820.577,"body":"race through this podcast."},{"startTime":820.877,"endTime":823.767,"body":"In that podcast we"},{"startTime":820.877,"endTime":823.767,"body":"said, okay, well most"},{"startTime":823.767,"endTime":825.237,"body":"companies will hire a mix."},{"startTime":825.267,"endTime":827.697,"body":"You know, they don't wanna hire"},{"startTime":825.267,"endTime":827.697,"body":"a whole bunch of people from"},{"startTime":827.697,"endTime":831.147,"body":"the business, and now we've got"},{"startTime":827.697,"endTime":831.147,"body":"nobody with actual PM experience"},{"startTime":831.447,"endTime":832.947,"body":"and, maybe vice versa, right."},{"startTime":833.247,"endTime":837.597,"body":"In this one, I wonder you're"},{"startTime":833.247,"endTime":837.597,"body":"gonna leverage those senior PMs"},{"startTime":837.597,"endTime":840.867,"body":"that you have that know how to"},{"startTime":837.597,"endTime":840.867,"body":"do the product management job"},{"startTime":841.167,"endTime":844.047,"body":"and you're gonna lean on them"},{"startTime":841.167,"endTime":844.047,"body":"when your group and director"},{"startTime":844.047,"endTime":845.817,"body":"level folks can't coach."},{"startTime":846.267,"endTime":846.507,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":846.657,"endTime":849.867,"body":"So the problem is gonna"},{"startTime":846.657,"endTime":849.867,"body":"get masked because your"},{"startTime":849.867,"endTime":852.567,"body":"employees are gonna"},{"startTime":849.867,"endTime":852.567,"body":"work between themselves."},{"startTime":852.972,"endTime":854.892,"body":"To figure out how"},{"startTime":852.972,"endTime":854.892,"body":"to fill these gaps."},{"startTime":854.892,"endTime":856.962,"body":"just to be good, team"},{"startTime":854.892,"endTime":856.962,"body":"partners, they're trying"},{"startTime":856.962,"endTime":857.922,"body":"to be good team partners."},{"startTime":858.042,"endTime":859.562,"body":"And, people might listen"},{"startTime":858.042,"endTime":859.562,"body":"to this podcast and"},{"startTime":859.562,"endTime":860.552,"body":"say, oh, that's great."},{"startTime":860.582,"endTime":861.602,"body":"You're being cross-functional."},{"startTime":861.602,"endTime":862.232,"body":"Everything's great."},{"startTime":862.442,"endTime":864.962,"body":"But I mean, at an employee"},{"startTime":862.442,"endTime":864.962,"body":"level, I'd like the level of"},{"startTime":864.962,"endTime":868.142,"body":"frustration is like growing and"},{"startTime":864.962,"endTime":868.142,"body":"be like, Hey, why do we keep"},{"startTime":868.142,"endTime":871.562,"body":"hiring these people that I've"},{"startTime":868.142,"endTime":871.562,"body":"gotta stop working on my stuff."},{"startTime":871.612,"endTime":873.262,"body":"Come over, help them out."},{"startTime":873.352,"endTime":876.712,"body":"And like come review time,"},{"startTime":873.352,"endTime":876.712,"body":"none of that is reflected."},{"startTime":876.922,"endTime":878.872,"body":"I was, I haven't been"},{"startTime":876.922,"endTime":878.872,"body":"promoted to group product"},{"startTime":878.872,"endTime":883.732,"body":"manager 'cause we still got"},{"startTime":878.872,"endTime":883.732,"body":"too many L whatever, we got"},{"startTime":883.732,"endTime":885.232,"body":"too many L fours, right?"},{"startTime":885.232,"endTime":887.512,"body":"And I'm an L three"},{"startTime":885.232,"endTime":887.512,"body":"and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":887.512,"endTime":887.962,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":888.022,"endTime":888.292,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":888.742,"endTime":888.982,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":888.982,"endTime":891.802,"body":"So unless you're, unless"},{"startTime":888.982,"endTime":891.802,"body":"you're measured on that stuff."},{"startTime":891.842,"endTime":893.252,"body":", Mentoring others, et cetera."},{"startTime":893.302,"endTime":894.052,"body":"This doesn't work."},{"startTime":894.352,"endTime":896.402,"body":"Alright, let's move"},{"startTime":894.352,"endTime":896.402,"body":"on to the next level."},{"startTime":896.502,"endTime":897.642,"body":"So that was execution."},{"startTime":897.792,"endTime":900.642,"body":"That was, that was the"},{"startTime":897.792,"endTime":900.642,"body":"excellence of execution."},{"startTime":900.702,"endTime":901.032,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":901.452,"endTime":902.772,"body":"Where's Brett Hard"},{"startTime":901.452,"endTime":902.772,"body":"eye when I need him?"},{"startTime":903.162,"endTime":903.432,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":903.432,"endTime":904.662,"body":"Where, where are we at?"},{"startTime":904.662,"endTime":905.142,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":905.532,"endTime":905.712,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":905.712,"endTime":908.832,"body":"So yeah, I don't"},{"startTime":905.712,"endTime":908.832,"body":"need his categories."},{"startTime":909.132,"endTime":911.952,"body":"So he goes on to"},{"startTime":909.132,"endTime":911.952,"body":"customer insight, that's"},{"startTime":911.952,"endTime":912.702,"body":"his next category."},{"startTime":912.702,"endTime":916.542,"body":"Product managers are cultural"},{"startTime":912.702,"endTime":916.542,"body":"ambassadors for their customers."},{"startTime":916.912,"endTime":919.882,"body":"They understand customer"},{"startTime":916.912,"endTime":919.882,"body":"needs and they represent those"},{"startTime":919.882,"endTime":921.292,"body":"needs to the rest of the team."},{"startTime":921.632,"endTime":924.032,"body":"the very best PMs"},{"startTime":921.632,"endTime":924.032,"body":"go a step further."},{"startTime":924.032,"endTime":927.572,"body":"They empathize with the"},{"startTime":924.032,"endTime":927.572,"body":"people their products serve."},{"startTime":927.872,"endTime":930.447,"body":"And they care deeply about"},{"startTime":927.872,"endTime":930.447,"body":"whether that product improves"},{"startTime":930.447,"endTime":931.407,"body":"those people's lives."},{"startTime":931.407,"endTime":931.617,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":931.617,"endTime":935.307,"body":"So there are three subgroupings"},{"startTime":931.617,"endTime":935.307,"body":"under customer insight."},{"startTime":935.607,"endTime":938.937,"body":"And those three Subgroupings are"},{"startTime":935.607,"endTime":938.937,"body":"number one, fluency with data."},{"startTime":939.267,"endTime":942.327,"body":"The ability to use data to"},{"startTime":939.267,"endTime":942.327,"body":"generate actionable insights"},{"startTime":942.627,"endTime":945.677,"body":"to connect goals to business"},{"startTime":942.627,"endTime":945.677,"body":"outcomes, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":945.757,"endTime":948.357,"body":"Voice of the customer, the"},{"startTime":945.757,"endTime":948.357,"body":", ability to leverage user"},{"startTime":948.357,"endTime":951.477,"body":"feedback to understand how"},{"startTime":948.357,"endTime":951.477,"body":"users engage with the product"},{"startTime":951.477,"endTime":952.707,"body":"and make better decisions."},{"startTime":952.967,"endTime":957.077,"body":"And then user experience"},{"startTime":952.967,"endTime":957.077,"body":"design or ux, right?"},{"startTime":957.077,"endTime":960.747,"body":"Working with the design"},{"startTime":957.077,"endTime":960.747,"body":"team to help them figure out"},{"startTime":960.847,"endTime":964.207,"body":"what ease of use, things to"},{"startTime":960.847,"endTime":964.207,"body":"prioritize over other things."},{"startTime":964.477,"endTime":967.207,"body":"What boy, he uses a bunch"},{"startTime":964.477,"endTime":967.207,"body":"of consulting speak in here."},{"startTime":967.207,"endTime":971.377,"body":"The ability to understand"},{"startTime":967.207,"endTime":971.377,"body":"the modern practices"},{"startTime":971.617,"endTime":972.847,"body":"of UX designers."},{"startTime":973.147,"endTime":974.977,"body":"Apply it to your application"},{"startTime":973.147,"endTime":974.977,"body":"to make things easier, to"},{"startTime":974.977,"endTime":978.517,"body":"use faster, less frustrating,"},{"startTime":974.977,"endTime":978.517,"body":"make a more pleasant"},{"startTime":978.517,"endTime":979.597,"body":"experience for the user."},{"startTime":980.017,"endTime":980.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":980.107,"endTime":982.087,"body":"Just reduce the"},{"startTime":980.107,"endTime":982.087,"body":"friction for your users."},{"startTime":982.087,"endTime":982.327,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":982.327,"endTime":982.328,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":982.387,"endTime":984.997,"body":"It's much easier to summarize"},{"startTime":982.387,"endTime":984.997,"body":"what these things are when I"},{"startTime":984.997,"endTime":985.987,"body":"don't even look at the screen."},{"startTime":986.047,"endTime":986.557,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":986.557,"endTime":986.707,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":987.157,"endTime":989.707,"body":"So in here , let's"},{"startTime":987.157,"endTime":989.707,"body":"talk about do they need"},{"startTime":989.707,"endTime":990.547,"body":"this skill right quick?"},{"startTime":990.667,"endTime":990.937,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":991.117,"endTime":995.757,"body":"Fluency with data, he has this"},{"startTime":991.117,"endTime":995.757,"body":"skill kind of questionably"},{"startTime":995.757,"endTime":998.757,"body":"coming in as an a PM learns"},{"startTime":995.757,"endTime":998.757,"body":"it, and then it's solid"},{"startTime":998.757,"endTime":999.807,"body":"for every other role."},{"startTime":1000.107,"endTime":1003.017,"body":"Fluency with data is solid"},{"startTime":1000.107,"endTime":1003.017,"body":"for every other role."},{"startTime":1003.017,"endTime":1004.877,"body":"and he has seven"},{"startTime":1003.017,"endTime":1004.877,"body":"roles here, right?"},{"startTime":1005.297,"endTime":1009.017,"body":"So APMs, I mean, if these"},{"startTime":1005.297,"endTime":1009.017,"body":"are your college folks coming"},{"startTime":1009.017,"endTime":1010.337,"body":"in, they gotta know the."},{"startTime":1010.727,"endTime":1012.977,"body":"Quantitative techniques at"},{"startTime":1010.727,"endTime":1012.977,"body":"least, but they may not be"},{"startTime":1012.977,"endTime":1014.717,"body":"fluent in how to interpret that."},{"startTime":1014.717,"endTime":1015.047,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1015.047,"endTime":1016.307,"body":"And use it in your context."},{"startTime":1016.337,"endTime":1017.357,"body":"Okay, I'll go with that."},{"startTime":1017.837,"endTime":1020.357,"body":"The PMs, senior PMs, et cetera."},{"startTime":1020.657,"endTime":1020.867,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1020.867,"endTime":1022.457,"body":"They really need to"},{"startTime":1020.867,"endTime":1022.457,"body":"have those skills."},{"startTime":1022.457,"endTime":1022.697,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1022.697,"endTime":1024.407,"body":"But then when you look"},{"startTime":1022.697,"endTime":1024.407,"body":"at the top end of that"},{"startTime":1024.407,"endTime":1028.397,"body":"spectrum, fluency with data"},{"startTime":1024.407,"endTime":1028.397,"body":"at the leadership level"},{"startTime":1028.577,"endTime":1029.717,"body":"has not been my experience."},{"startTime":1029.717,"endTime":1033.167,"body":"My experience has been they just"},{"startTime":1029.717,"endTime":1033.167,"body":"wanna see a chart, basically."},{"startTime":1033.167,"endTime":1033.857,"body":"Or a dashboard."},{"startTime":1033.887,"endTime":1034.637,"body":"Or a dashboard."},{"startTime":1034.637,"endTime":1034.847,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1034.847,"endTime":1035.297,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1035.337,"endTime":1037.077,"body":"So don't deep dive in there."},{"startTime":1037.137,"endTime":1040.287,"body":"I just show 'em at a"},{"startTime":1037.137,"endTime":1040.287,"body":"highly abstracted level,"},{"startTime":1040.587,"endTime":1043.527,"body":"the data that basically"},{"startTime":1040.587,"endTime":1043.527,"body":"forms a picture, right?"},{"startTime":1043.527,"endTime":1043.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1043.647,"endTime":1044.847,"body":"Don't show 'em the pixels."},{"startTime":1044.897,"endTime":1047.387,"body":"this one's difficult to"},{"startTime":1044.897,"endTime":1047.387,"body":"play the old arguing agile"},{"startTime":1047.387,"endTime":1049.327,"body":"game because I I hard pass."},{"startTime":1049.327,"endTime":1052.187,"body":"I don't agree that senior"},{"startTime":1049.327,"endTime":1052.187,"body":"director, VP of the chief"},{"startTime":1052.187,"endTime":1054.707,"body":"product officer, like, it's nice"},{"startTime":1052.187,"endTime":1054.707,"body":"to say like, oh, they should"},{"startTime":1054.707,"endTime":1057.797,"body":"be able to be read data and"},{"startTime":1054.707,"endTime":1057.797,"body":"be very fluent with whatever."},{"startTime":1057.797,"endTime":1059.537,"body":"But like, my experience"},{"startTime":1057.797,"endTime":1059.537,"body":"would been the exact"},{"startTime":1059.597,"endTime":1060.827,"body":"opposite, actually."},{"startTime":1061.097,"endTime":1062.837,"body":"Show me a single pane of glass."},{"startTime":1063.122,"endTime":1064.502,"body":"Is what I get from like this."},{"startTime":1064.502,"endTime":1064.832,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1065.072,"endTime":1065.492,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1065.792,"endTime":1066.092,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1066.092,"endTime":1068.162,"body":"So this one is easy"},{"startTime":1066.092,"endTime":1068.162,"body":"to disagree with."},{"startTime":1068.162,"endTime":1072.432,"body":"We, you know, we both agree to"},{"startTime":1068.162,"endTime":1072.432,"body":"disagree on the fluency data."},{"startTime":1072.462,"endTime":1073.422,"body":"Well, let's, let's get to it."},{"startTime":1073.422,"endTime":1074.052,"body":"Let's get to it."},{"startTime":1074.232,"endTime":1075.982,"body":"Actually, you know what,"},{"startTime":1074.232,"endTime":1075.982,"body":"you know what before we"},{"startTime":1075.982,"endTime":1078.202,"body":"move off of this one, let"},{"startTime":1075.982,"endTime":1078.202,"body":"me hit one other category."},{"startTime":1078.242,"endTime":1084.512,"body":"I wanna highlight how like"},{"startTime":1078.242,"endTime":1084.512,"body":"will they coach this skill and."},{"startTime":1084.812,"endTime":1085.922,"body":"I really disagree."},{"startTime":1085.952,"endTime":1088.682,"body":"Like I, I don't think"},{"startTime":1085.952,"endTime":1088.682,"body":"I've ever heard coaching"},{"startTime":1088.682,"endTime":1090.642,"body":"on fluency with data."},{"startTime":1090.772,"endTime":1091.402,"body":"From top down?"},{"startTime":1091.402,"endTime":1094.162,"body":"No, I, I've heard like"},{"startTime":1091.402,"endTime":1094.162,"body":"rambling is about like what"},{"startTime":1094.162,"endTime":1095.902,"body":"widgets or whatever they"},{"startTime":1094.162,"endTime":1095.902,"body":"want on their dashboard, but"},{"startTime":1095.902,"endTime":1097.252,"body":"that's not fluency with data."},{"startTime":1097.282,"endTime":1098.362,"body":"Yeah, no, that's right."},{"startTime":1098.572,"endTime":1098.722,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1098.727,"endTime":1099.677,"body":"I agree with you."},{"startTime":1099.777,"endTime":1102.297,"body":"So those people at the top"},{"startTime":1099.777,"endTime":1102.297,"body":"end of this spectrum are"},{"startTime":1102.567,"endTime":1106.857,"body":"possibly aren't even really"},{"startTime":1102.567,"endTime":1106.857,"body":"familiar with the latest data"},{"startTime":1106.917,"endTime":1108.657,"body":"analysis techniques, right?"},{"startTime":1108.657,"endTime":1108.658,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1109.077,"endTime":1110.547,"body":"They're probably not"},{"startTime":1109.077,"endTime":1110.547,"body":"familiar with those."},{"startTime":1110.767,"endTime":1112.447,"body":"So how would they"},{"startTime":1110.767,"endTime":1112.447,"body":"be coaching down?"},{"startTime":1112.747,"endTime":1114.807,"body":"I don't know the way"},{"startTime":1112.747,"endTime":1114.807,"body":"that all executives"},{"startTime":1114.807,"endTime":1116.247,"body":"coach down just yelling."},{"startTime":1116.547,"endTime":1118.257,"body":"Yeah, yell and get"},{"startTime":1116.547,"endTime":1118.257,"body":"it to me yesterday."},{"startTime":1118.257,"endTime":1118.647,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1118.987,"endTime":1120.727,"body":"The next category of voice"},{"startTime":1118.987,"endTime":1120.727,"body":"of the customer, like,"},{"startTime":1121.027,"endTime":1123.667,"body":"do they need this skill"},{"startTime":1121.027,"endTime":1123.667,"body":"in the different levels?"},{"startTime":1123.667,"endTime":1129.447,"body":"The ICPM, product leader, vp, CO"},{"startTime":1123.667,"endTime":1129.447,"body":"vp, CPO I wanna say I wanna push"},{"startTime":1129.447,"endTime":1133.137,"body":"back against what he has here"},{"startTime":1129.447,"endTime":1133.137,"body":"because I think they all need"},{"startTime":1133.437,"endTime":1135.087,"body":"the voice of the customer skill."},{"startTime":1135.387,"endTime":1137.927,"body":"And I think at the different"},{"startTime":1135.387,"endTime":1137.927,"body":"levels you're dealing"},{"startTime":1137.927,"endTime":1140.057,"body":"with different customers."},{"startTime":1140.357,"endTime":1140.627,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1140.827,"endTime":1143.567,"body":"I mean, to the CPO,"},{"startTime":1140.827,"endTime":1143.567,"body":"their customer might"},{"startTime":1143.567,"endTime":1145.427,"body":"be investors strictly."},{"startTime":1145.802,"endTime":1147.992,"body":"Where they don't talk to"},{"startTime":1145.802,"endTime":1147.992,"body":"any users or whatever,"},{"startTime":1147.992,"endTime":1149.942,"body":"they seem disconnected from"},{"startTime":1147.992,"endTime":1149.942,"body":"the needs of the users."},{"startTime":1149.942,"endTime":1152.552,"body":"But if you want to get"},{"startTime":1149.942,"endTime":1152.552,"body":"funding to keep, you know,"},{"startTime":1152.552,"endTime":1154.232,"body":"if you want to get your"},{"startTime":1152.552,"endTime":1154.232,"body":"Series B or whatever, like"},{"startTime":1154.232,"endTime":1157.652,"body":"the CPO should be really in"},{"startTime":1154.232,"endTime":1157.652,"body":"tune with those customers."},{"startTime":1157.652,"endTime":1159.422,"body":"And, , maybe you might wanna"},{"startTime":1157.652,"endTime":1159.422,"body":"say like, well those are"},{"startTime":1159.422,"endTime":1160.832,"body":"not real customers, Brian."},{"startTime":1160.832,"endTime":1160.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1161.307,"endTime":1164.067,"body":"They kind of are sort of,"},{"startTime":1161.307,"endTime":1164.067,"body":"but , if you really think"},{"startTime":1164.067,"endTime":1166.067,"body":"about product management"},{"startTime":1164.067,"endTime":1166.067,"body":"in terms of running the"},{"startTime":1166.067,"endTime":1167.827,"body":"business, they kind of are."},{"startTime":1167.882,"endTime":1168.302,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1168.302,"endTime":1173.252,"body":"This one is interesting because"},{"startTime":1168.302,"endTime":1173.252,"body":"the a PM has the darkest shade"},{"startTime":1173.252,"endTime":1176.942,"body":"here, which means that they have"},{"startTime":1173.252,"endTime":1176.942,"body":"the ability, I guess, right."},{"startTime":1177.122,"endTime":1179.582,"body":"It says that underneath the"},{"startTime":1177.122,"endTime":1179.582,"body":"ability to leverage user"},{"startTime":1179.582,"endTime":1183.182,"body":"feedback in all its forums,"},{"startTime":1179.582,"endTime":1183.182,"body":"like I, I'm gonna lean against"},{"startTime":1183.182,"endTime":1186.182,"body":"that and say the a PM possibly"},{"startTime":1183.182,"endTime":1186.182,"body":"doesn't have that ability."},{"startTime":1186.242,"endTime":1186.392,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1186.692,"endTime":1187.052,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1187.202,"endTime":1191.462,"body":"the IPM doesn't have that"},{"startTime":1187.202,"endTime":1191.462,"body":"ability to the utmost"},{"startTime":1191.462,"endTime":1194.042,"body":"level compared to those"},{"startTime":1191.462,"endTime":1194.042,"body":"in the middle there."},{"startTime":1194.132,"endTime":1194.342,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1194.462,"endTime":1196.802,"body":"Because you've had some days"},{"startTime":1194.462,"endTime":1196.802,"body":"under your belt now, right."},{"startTime":1196.802,"endTime":1199.202,"body":"If you were a senior"},{"startTime":1196.802,"endTime":1199.202,"body":"PM for example, yeah."},{"startTime":1199.202,"endTime":1201.992,"body":"You would be, I think your"},{"startTime":1199.202,"endTime":1201.992,"body":"ability would be sharper"},{"startTime":1201.992,"endTime":1205.112,"body":"there then it would be when"},{"startTime":1201.992,"endTime":1205.112,"body":"the day you first came in."},{"startTime":1205.112,"endTime":1205.412,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1205.412,"endTime":1206.642,"body":"That that's what I think."},{"startTime":1206.732,"endTime":1206.912,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1207.162,"endTime":1210.192,"body":"Now then it fades out"},{"startTime":1207.162,"endTime":1210.192,"body":"at the other level."},{"startTime":1210.192,"endTime":1210.582,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1211.072,"endTime":1213.172,"body":"Again, I don't agree with"},{"startTime":1211.072,"endTime":1213.172,"body":"that voice of the customer"},{"startTime":1213.172,"endTime":1215.212,"body":"at like, to your point"},{"startTime":1213.172,"endTime":1215.212,"body":"about different levels."},{"startTime":1215.512,"endTime":1218.182,"body":"So your executives are engaging"},{"startTime":1215.512,"endTime":1218.182,"body":"with your customers at different"},{"startTime":1218.182,"endTime":1219.652,"body":"levels, Than your PMs are."},{"startTime":1219.962,"endTime":1222.482,"body":"your engineering teams"},{"startTime":1219.962,"endTime":1222.482,"body":"are, and you still need to"},{"startTime":1222.482,"endTime":1225.092,"body":"be able to understand and"},{"startTime":1222.482,"endTime":1225.092,"body":"relate to your customers."},{"startTime":1225.142,"endTime":1227.362,"body":"The big reason I disagree"},{"startTime":1225.142,"endTime":1227.362,"body":"with these levels is"},{"startTime":1227.362,"endTime":1229.912,"body":"because I feel strongly that"},{"startTime":1227.362,"endTime":1229.912,"body":"the experience to coach."},{"startTime":1230.392,"endTime":1231.532,"body":"Voice of the customer."},{"startTime":1231.832,"endTime":1234.622,"body":"I think everybody should be"},{"startTime":1231.832,"endTime":1234.622,"body":"coaching voice of the customer"},{"startTime":1234.622,"endTime":1237.297,"body":"down to the next level below"},{"startTime":1234.622,"endTime":1237.297,"body":"them, like the chief product"},{"startTime":1237.297,"endTime":1239.937,"body":"officer, whatever, should"},{"startTime":1237.297,"endTime":1239.937,"body":"be voicing their, like,"},{"startTime":1239.937,"endTime":1242.637,"body":"oh, the investors this,"},{"startTime":1239.937,"endTime":1242.637,"body":"the investors that, down to"},{"startTime":1242.637,"endTime":1243.897,"body":"the director level, right?"},{"startTime":1243.897,"endTime":1244.317,"body":"Folks."},{"startTime":1244.677,"endTime":1248.087,"body":"And then should be able to coach"},{"startTime":1244.677,"endTime":1248.087,"body":"them on how to kind of talk"},{"startTime":1248.087,"endTime":1252.237,"body":"to and elicit these opinions"},{"startTime":1248.087,"endTime":1252.237,"body":"how to interview without bias."},{"startTime":1252.237,"endTime":1253.737,"body":"Like the things like"},{"startTime":1252.237,"endTime":1253.737,"body":"this, you know, that"},{"startTime":1253.797,"endTime":1256.677,"body":"like, I, I think everybody"},{"startTime":1253.797,"endTime":1256.677,"body":"should have this skill."},{"startTime":1256.727,"endTime":1258.077,"body":"It's probably one of the"},{"startTime":1256.727,"endTime":1258.077,"body":"more important skills."},{"startTime":1258.107,"endTime":1258.767,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1258.772,"endTime":1260.717,"body":"I think it's one of the most"},{"startTime":1258.772,"endTime":1260.717,"body":"important skills because at the"},{"startTime":1260.717,"endTime":1265.307,"body":"very top level, it's, it's not"},{"startTime":1260.717,"endTime":1265.307,"body":"just about coaching down, it's"},{"startTime":1265.307,"endTime":1266.777,"body":"also about succession planning."},{"startTime":1266.777,"endTime":1267.077,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1267.077,"endTime":1269.957,"body":"You're thinking about who's"},{"startTime":1267.077,"endTime":1269.957,"body":"gonna take your seat Yeah."},{"startTime":1270.047,"endTime":1272.657,"body":"As you, you know, as, as"},{"startTime":1270.047,"endTime":1272.657,"body":"you move through, right?"},{"startTime":1273.107,"endTime":1274.847,"body":"Now in reality."},{"startTime":1275.147,"endTime":1276.017,"body":"I think his chart's right."},{"startTime":1276.317,"endTime":1276.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1276.677,"endTime":1279.917,"body":"So in reality, this is how most"},{"startTime":1276.677,"endTime":1279.917,"body":"companies are set up, right?"},{"startTime":1280.167,"endTime":1283.687,"body":"Except for that first piece,"},{"startTime":1280.167,"endTime":1283.687,"body":"the ap PM, no, I think, I"},{"startTime":1283.687,"endTime":1286.597,"body":"think in reality, I think his"},{"startTime":1283.687,"endTime":1286.597,"body":"whole chart for voice to the"},{"startTime":1286.597,"endTime":1287.677,"body":"customer, I think is right."},{"startTime":1287.677,"endTime":1290.647,"body":"I think the APMs are the"},{"startTime":1287.677,"endTime":1290.647,"body":"people that read inspired,"},{"startTime":1290.827,"endTime":1292.117,"body":"they just got outta school."},{"startTime":1292.267,"endTime":1295.357,"body":"They were just told like,"},{"startTime":1292.267,"endTime":1295.357,"body":"oh, you know, be agile,"},{"startTime":1295.357,"endTime":1297.187,"body":"pivot with what the customer"},{"startTime":1295.357,"endTime":1297.187,"body":"like, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1297.187,"endTime":1298.382,"body":"They're, they're the ones Oh,"},{"startTime":1297.187,"endTime":1298.382,"body":"yeah, I see what you're saying."},{"startTime":1298.382,"endTime":1300.667,"body":"They're the ones that the, like"},{"startTime":1298.382,"endTime":1300.667,"body":"the, the theory is ringing in"},{"startTime":1300.667,"endTime":1303.517,"body":"their head and like the VPs"},{"startTime":1300.667,"endTime":1303.517,"body":"are like, I don't understand."},{"startTime":1303.577,"endTime":1305.917,"body":"I told 'em every"},{"startTime":1303.577,"endTime":1305.917,"body":"customer wants this."},{"startTime":1305.917,"endTime":1307.447,"body":"They should just"},{"startTime":1305.917,"endTime":1307.447,"body":"build what I say."},{"startTime":1307.637,"endTime":1311.417,"body":"In reality, I think this chart"},{"startTime":1307.637,"endTime":1311.417,"body":"is a hundred percent accurate."},{"startTime":1311.467,"endTime":1314.887,"body":"The further up in the company"},{"startTime":1311.467,"endTime":1314.887,"body":"you go, the more disconnected"},{"startTime":1314.887,"endTime":1316.432,"body":"you get with the actual"},{"startTime":1314.887,"endTime":1316.432,"body":"people that use your software."},{"startTime":1316.592,"endTime":1316.872,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1316.872,"endTime":1318.907,"body":"And the more assumptions"},{"startTime":1316.872,"endTime":1318.907,"body":"that you make, and because"},{"startTime":1318.907,"endTime":1320.167,"body":"they were your ideas."},{"startTime":1320.452,"endTime":1321.472,"body":"And you think you're very smart."},{"startTime":1321.492,"endTime":1322.617,"body":"you wanna drive them home."},{"startTime":1322.647,"endTime":1322.977,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1322.982,"endTime":1325.782,"body":"I think in reality this is"},{"startTime":1322.982,"endTime":1325.782,"body":"true, but if I'm gonna hold"},{"startTime":1325.782,"endTime":1327.612,"body":"a mirror to this category and"},{"startTime":1325.782,"endTime":1327.612,"body":"hold it up, I think if you're"},{"startTime":1327.612,"endTime":1332.082,"body":"hiring a director or, you know,"},{"startTime":1327.612,"endTime":1332.082,"body":"product management director"},{"startTime":1332.082,"endTime":1334.022,"body":"or something like that, or"},{"startTime":1332.082,"endTime":1334.022,"body":"a Chief product officer they"},{"startTime":1334.022,"endTime":1338.012,"body":"should have some good solid"},{"startTime":1334.022,"endTime":1338.012,"body":"techniques for really getting to"},{"startTime":1338.012,"endTime":1342.212,"body":"the heart of the problem fast,"},{"startTime":1338.012,"endTime":1342.212,"body":"identifying the problems fast."},{"startTime":1342.512,"endTime":1345.542,"body":"And that's all this voice of the"},{"startTime":1342.512,"endTime":1345.542,"body":"customer stuff , when you hire"},{"startTime":1345.542,"endTime":1347.042,"body":"them, you're gonna hire them."},{"startTime":1347.102,"endTime":1349.532,"body":"And then it's gonna be, I"},{"startTime":1347.102,"endTime":1349.532,"body":"don't know how long until"},{"startTime":1349.532,"endTime":1353.682,"body":"they learn that skill on"},{"startTime":1349.532,"endTime":1353.682,"body":"your dime or don't Right."},{"startTime":1353.682,"endTime":1354.692,"body":"and they move on."},{"startTime":1354.742,"endTime":1356.362,"body":"Or don't, and they"},{"startTime":1354.742,"endTime":1356.362,"body":"become a train wreck."},{"startTime":1356.412,"endTime":1359.722,"body":"But again, like think of"},{"startTime":1356.412,"endTime":1359.722,"body":"what you could have had."},{"startTime":1360.022,"endTime":1362.542,"body":"In a chief product officer,"},{"startTime":1360.022,"endTime":1362.542,"body":"if you hire somebody who had"},{"startTime":1362.542,"endTime":1365.482,"body":"that skill versus didn't have"},{"startTime":1362.542,"endTime":1365.482,"body":"that skill, and then eventually"},{"startTime":1365.482,"endTime":1368.152,"body":"learn into, obviously like the"},{"startTime":1365.482,"endTime":1368.152,"body":"worst case scenario is like"},{"startTime":1368.302,"endTime":1370.762,"body":"you hire somebody, they didn't"},{"startTime":1368.302,"endTime":1370.762,"body":"have that skill you thought"},{"startTime":1370.762,"endTime":1372.412,"body":"they did, they never learn it."},{"startTime":1372.472,"endTime":1374.872,"body":"They're very arrogant, they"},{"startTime":1372.472,"endTime":1374.872,"body":"wash out after a year and a"},{"startTime":1374.872,"endTime":1377.422,"body":"half and you wasted a bunch of"},{"startTime":1374.872,"endTime":1377.422,"body":"money and time and opportunity."},{"startTime":1377.722,"endTime":1381.022,"body":"The other, like the EI think"},{"startTime":1377.722,"endTime":1381.022,"body":"the scarier side of that is the,"},{"startTime":1381.112,"endTime":1383.752,"body":"the person that like you hire"},{"startTime":1381.112,"endTime":1383.752,"body":"and then two, it takes them two"},{"startTime":1383.752,"endTime":1388.432,"body":"years at a chief product officer"},{"startTime":1383.752,"endTime":1388.432,"body":"level to grow into being able to"},{"startTime":1388.432,"endTime":1392.172,"body":"ask good questions because like"},{"startTime":1388.432,"endTime":1392.172,"body":"what could you have had for two"},{"startTime":1392.172,"endTime":1395.652,"body":"years while this person learned"},{"startTime":1392.172,"endTime":1395.652,"body":"that skill, that opportunity"},{"startTime":1395.652,"endTime":1397.122,"body":"cost is huge or it can be huge."},{"startTime":1397.122,"endTime":1397.572,"body":"It's gone."},{"startTime":1397.632,"endTime":1397.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1398.202,"endTime":1399.702,"body":"And the whole industry"},{"startTime":1398.202,"endTime":1399.702,"body":"might have moved on."},{"startTime":1399.762,"endTime":1400.272,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1400.322,"endTime":1404.342,"body":"So the UX and design"},{"startTime":1400.322,"endTime":1404.342,"body":"uX design experience."},{"startTime":1404.342,"endTime":1407.072,"body":"Like when I started this,"},{"startTime":1404.342,"endTime":1407.072,"body":"I didn't agree with his."},{"startTime":1407.072,"endTime":1411.872,"body":"Like he has a very niche area"},{"startTime":1407.072,"endTime":1411.872,"body":"of career field expertise."},{"startTime":1411.872,"endTime":1415.382,"body":"Like, hey, right in that role"},{"startTime":1411.872,"endTime":1415.382,"body":"where it's like the most senior"},{"startTime":1415.382,"endTime":1418.952,"body":"of PMs and like the people that"},{"startTime":1415.382,"endTime":1418.952,"body":"are like team lead, kind of"},{"startTime":1418.952,"endTime":1421.592,"body":"like just moving into product"},{"startTime":1418.952,"endTime":1421.592,"body":"leadership type of role."},{"startTime":1421.772,"endTime":1424.112,"body":"Like they're the only"},{"startTime":1421.772,"endTime":1424.112,"body":"ones that are experts"},{"startTime":1424.112,"endTime":1426.152,"body":"at this, can coach this."},{"startTime":1426.422,"endTime":1426.932,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1426.947,"endTime":1429.287,"body":"basically he's saying also like,"},{"startTime":1426.947,"endTime":1429.287,"body":"use this on a regular basis."},{"startTime":1429.337,"endTime":1431.947,"body":"and I said to myself when"},{"startTime":1429.337,"endTime":1431.947,"body":"I first saw this chart,"},{"startTime":1431.947,"endTime":1433.317,"body":"like that can't be true."},{"startTime":1433.617,"endTime":1436.557,"body":"Like UX has to be like, all"},{"startTime":1433.617,"endTime":1436.557,"body":"these people have read Marty Ka"},{"startTime":1436.557,"endTime":1439.527,"body":"and they know UX has to be like"},{"startTime":1436.557,"endTime":1439.527,"body":"an integral part of your day."},{"startTime":1439.527,"endTime":1440.817,"body":"You gotta be a triad."},{"startTime":1440.867,"endTime":1444.647,"body":"or if you're someone selling"},{"startTime":1440.867,"endTime":1444.647,"body":"AI tools on the internet, you"},{"startTime":1444.647,"endTime":1446.822,"body":"gotta be an army of one, but"},{"startTime":1444.647,"endTime":1446.822,"body":"you gotta be doing all this"},{"startTime":1446.822,"endTime":1449.602,"body":"stuff But he's saying only"},{"startTime":1446.822,"endTime":1449.602,"body":"these two are actually good"},{"startTime":1449.602,"endTime":1451.152,"body":"at it, practicing it Yeah."},{"startTime":1451.152,"endTime":1454.872,"body":"I mean, the middle of the bell"},{"startTime":1451.152,"endTime":1454.872,"body":"curve he has here, for me, the"},{"startTime":1454.872,"endTime":1456.462,"body":"tails are a little bit wider."},{"startTime":1456.582,"endTime":1456.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1456.792,"endTime":1459.462,"body":"I think at the PM level,"},{"startTime":1456.792,"endTime":1459.462,"body":"it wouldn't be this faded"},{"startTime":1459.462,"endTime":1460.992,"body":"out for me at least."},{"startTime":1460.992,"endTime":1461.292,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1461.297,"endTime":1464.047,"body":"And likewise at the director"},{"startTime":1461.297,"endTime":1464.047,"body":"level, again, we're assuming"},{"startTime":1464.047,"endTime":1467.527,"body":"that people weren't just simply"},{"startTime":1464.047,"endTime":1467.527,"body":"hired in without the appropriate"},{"startTime":1467.527,"endTime":1468.757,"body":"experience and so forth."},{"startTime":1468.817,"endTime":1470.287,"body":"They actually know"},{"startTime":1468.817,"endTime":1470.287,"body":"the craft well."},{"startTime":1470.347,"endTime":1472.927,"body":"I mean, some shops, , the"},{"startTime":1470.347,"endTime":1472.927,"body":"Holy Trinity, the designer,"},{"startTime":1472.927,"endTime":1474.487,"body":"the lead engineer,"},{"startTime":1474.537,"endTime":1477.017,"body":"And the product manager,"},{"startTime":1474.537,"endTime":1477.017,"body":"they work for different"},{"startTime":1477.017,"endTime":1477.887,"body":"people on paper."},{"startTime":1478.127,"endTime":1478.217,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1478.217,"endTime":1480.527,"body":"the tech lead works for the"},{"startTime":1478.217,"endTime":1480.527,"body":"engineering manager and the"},{"startTime":1480.577,"endTime":1483.217,"body":"product person works for the,"},{"startTime":1480.577,"endTime":1483.217,"body":", group PM or director of product."},{"startTime":1483.217,"endTime":1486.307,"body":"And then the UX person works"},{"startTime":1483.217,"endTime":1486.307,"body":"for some ux, especially"},{"startTime":1486.397,"endTime":1487.507,"body":"matrixed organizations."},{"startTime":1487.507,"endTime":1487.627,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1487.672,"endTime":1492.022,"body":"so from that perspective, I"},{"startTime":1487.672,"endTime":1492.022,"body":"could see where this chart"},{"startTime":1492.022,"endTime":1495.722,"body":"is implying that you only"},{"startTime":1492.022,"endTime":1495.722,"body":"manage the product people."},{"startTime":1496.022,"endTime":1499.322,"body":"So your director of product,"},{"startTime":1496.022,"endTime":1499.322,"body":"if they've never managed UX"},{"startTime":1499.322,"endTime":1500.432,"body":"people, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1500.432,"endTime":1502.292,"body":"Like, if a small shop, maybe"},{"startTime":1500.432,"endTime":1502.292,"body":"all these people will be"},{"startTime":1502.292,"endTime":1505.112,"body":"under engineering or product"},{"startTime":1502.292,"endTime":1505.112,"body":"or something like that."},{"startTime":1505.312,"endTime":1507.292,"body":"Basically what I'm saying,"},{"startTime":1505.312,"endTime":1507.292,"body":"what I'm arguing here is I"},{"startTime":1507.292,"endTime":1509.112,"body":"could see his divisions here."},{"startTime":1509.412,"endTime":1512.382,"body":"I could pretty easily see, I've"},{"startTime":1509.412,"endTime":1512.382,"body":"kind of come around to this."},{"startTime":1512.682,"endTime":1515.502,"body":"I'm still thinking that"},{"startTime":1512.682,"endTime":1515.502,"body":"your PM really does need to"},{"startTime":1515.502,"endTime":1517.152,"body":"understand deeply the ux."},{"startTime":1517.152,"endTime":1517.632,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":1517.932,"endTime":1520.942,"body":"Design is, let's highlight the"},{"startTime":1517.932,"endTime":1520.942,"body":"PM block a little bit more."},{"startTime":1520.992,"endTime":1522.757,"body":"meaning the individual"},{"startTime":1520.992,"endTime":1522.757,"body":"contributor PM this is one"},{"startTime":1522.757,"endTime":1525.187,"body":"of the first skills that"},{"startTime":1522.757,"endTime":1525.187,"body":"you should be learning."},{"startTime":1525.427,"endTime":1528.967,"body":"collaborating with your UX"},{"startTime":1525.427,"endTime":1528.967,"body":"designer to say like, Hey, I"},{"startTime":1528.967,"endTime":1530.197,"body":"think this feature is important."},{"startTime":1530.677,"endTime":1533.527,"body":"What can we do to make sure"},{"startTime":1530.677,"endTime":1533.527,"body":"we get adoption, make it easy"},{"startTime":1533.527,"endTime":1536.397,"body":"to work with that kind of"},{"startTime":1533.527,"endTime":1536.397,"body":"stuff and to really take their"},{"startTime":1536.397,"endTime":1537.987,"body":"suggestions into consideration."},{"startTime":1538.237,"endTime":1538.837,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1539.137,"endTime":1541.117,"body":"you're contrasting with"},{"startTime":1539.137,"endTime":1541.117,"body":"the voice of the customer"},{"startTime":1541.117,"endTime":1542.437,"body":"we just talked about in"},{"startTime":1541.117,"endTime":1542.437,"body":"the previous category."},{"startTime":1542.437,"endTime":1543.127,"body":"Just build this."},{"startTime":1543.157,"endTime":1543.457,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1543.557,"endTime":1544.817,"body":"What do you, what do"},{"startTime":1543.557,"endTime":1544.817,"body":"you, what you gonna do"},{"startTime":1544.817,"endTime":1548.117,"body":"in ab test with these two"},{"startTime":1544.817,"endTime":1548.117,"body":"different style buttons?"},{"startTime":1548.117,"endTime":1551.477,"body":"One with a, a nice, you know,"},{"startTime":1548.117,"endTime":1551.477,"body":"rounded corners and drop"},{"startTime":1551.477,"endTime":1552.407,"body":"shadows and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1552.407,"endTime":1555.497,"body":"And then just like a,"},{"startTime":1552.407,"endTime":1555.497,"body":"a blank 1997 button."},{"startTime":1555.617,"endTime":1556.667,"body":"Like, who cares?"},{"startTime":1556.697,"endTime":1556.997,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1556.997,"endTime":1557.747,"body":"Just add a button."},{"startTime":1557.747,"endTime":1559.307,"body":"They can do whatever"},{"startTime":1557.747,"endTime":1559.307,"body":"it doesn't, you know?"},{"startTime":1559.557,"endTime":1560.757,"body":"Just build it and they'll come."},{"startTime":1561.027,"endTime":1563.307,"body":"This, the reality of this"},{"startTime":1561.027,"endTime":1563.307,"body":"one is, it conflicts with"},{"startTime":1563.307,"endTime":1564.327,"body":"the previous category."},{"startTime":1564.337,"endTime":1566.737,"body":"we're like, you have"},{"startTime":1564.337,"endTime":1566.737,"body":"you, how dare I say?"},{"startTime":1567.037,"endTime":1569.467,"body":"We're like on the,"},{"startTime":1567.037,"endTime":1569.467,"body":"on the, on the."},{"startTime":1569.932,"endTime":1572.962,"body":"Further end of the spectrum"},{"startTime":1569.932,"endTime":1572.962,"body":"where he has like VP slash"},{"startTime":1572.962,"endTime":1575.692,"body":"cpo, like grayed out completely"},{"startTime":1572.962,"endTime":1575.692,"body":"say, look, they're not gonna"},{"startTime":1575.692,"endTime":1576.952,"body":"have this skill at all."},{"startTime":1576.997,"endTime":1578.887,"body":"Especially people that come"},{"startTime":1576.997,"endTime":1578.887,"body":"in and are salespeople,"},{"startTime":1578.977,"endTime":1582.427,"body":"they get hired into a chief"},{"startTime":1578.977,"endTime":1582.427,"body":"product officer or COOs"},{"startTime":1582.427,"endTime":1584.347,"body":"that get hired into a chief"},{"startTime":1582.427,"endTime":1584.347,"body":"product officer position."},{"startTime":1584.517,"endTime":1588.847,"body":"they're likely, they've never"},{"startTime":1584.517,"endTime":1588.847,"body":"worked with any UI design or"},{"startTime":1589.117,"endTime":1591.517,"body":"UX experience tools or people."},{"startTime":1591.667,"endTime":1594.007,"body":"But they're probably not gonna"},{"startTime":1591.667,"endTime":1594.007,"body":"respect it as a discipline."},{"startTime":1594.017,"endTime":1594.617,"body":"Maybe they do."},{"startTime":1594.617,"endTime":1594.947,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1594.947,"endTime":1596.632,"body":", But they won't have the"},{"startTime":1594.947,"endTime":1596.632,"body":"ability, I think this is"},{"startTime":1596.632,"endTime":1597.742,"body":"what he's talking about here."},{"startTime":1597.742,"endTime":1598.252,"body":"The ability."},{"startTime":1598.252,"endTime":1599.602,"body":"So, And they won't"},{"startTime":1598.252,"endTime":1599.602,"body":"be able to coach you."},{"startTime":1599.722,"endTime":1603.777,"body":"So, like I said, I started"},{"startTime":1599.722,"endTime":1603.777,"body":"with this one where I saw"},{"startTime":1603.777,"endTime":1606.507,"body":"his interpretation as very"},{"startTime":1603.777,"endTime":1606.507,"body":"narrow, and I was like,"},{"startTime":1606.507,"endTime":1607.827,"body":"it can't be that narrow."},{"startTime":1608.127,"endTime":1610.197,"body":"But in the course of our"},{"startTime":1608.127,"endTime":1610.197,"body":"discussion, I'm like,"},{"startTime":1610.437,"endTime":1613.107,"body":"actually, it can be, I"},{"startTime":1610.437,"endTime":1613.107,"body":"think it can be that narrow."},{"startTime":1613.107,"endTime":1614.637,"body":"And I think it usually is."},{"startTime":1614.937,"endTime":1618.362,"body":"Pretty narrow where the UX"},{"startTime":1614.937,"endTime":1618.362,"body":"folks have to really, and,"},{"startTime":1618.362,"endTime":1621.602,"body":"and also if you're gonna"},{"startTime":1618.362,"endTime":1621.602,"body":"shuffle user research, people"},{"startTime":1621.722,"endTime":1625.442,"body":"under ux, those people have"},{"startTime":1621.722,"endTime":1625.442,"body":"to fight for their salaries."},{"startTime":1625.922,"endTime":1628.112,"body":"When you have this"},{"startTime":1625.922,"endTime":1628.112,"body":"person's like, ah, I know"},{"startTime":1628.112,"endTime":1628.952,"body":"what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1628.952,"endTime":1630.062,"body":"Just build what I say."},{"startTime":1630.212,"endTime":1632.492,"body":"What do we need an army"},{"startTime":1630.212,"endTime":1632.492,"body":"of UX researchers for?"},{"startTime":1632.802,"endTime":1633.792,"body":"Absolutely correct."},{"startTime":1633.892,"endTime":1634.672,"body":"Trust me on this."},{"startTime":1634.722,"endTime":1640.122,"body":"So his next, his next"},{"startTime":1634.722,"endTime":1640.122,"body":"category is product strategy."},{"startTime":1640.512,"endTime":1644.462,"body":"We've done many podcasts arguing"},{"startTime":1640.512,"endTime":1644.462,"body":"Agile 1 0 3 on product strategy,"},{"startTime":1644.462,"endTime":1645.632,"body":"mission, vision strategy"},{"startTime":1646.002,"endTime":1648.432,"body":"He gives a little quote"},{"startTime":1646.002,"endTime":1648.432,"body":"about product strategy."},{"startTime":1648.432,"endTime":1652.062,"body":"He says, unlike a standalone"},{"startTime":1648.432,"endTime":1652.062,"body":"decision or goal, a strategy"},{"startTime":1652.062,"endTime":1654.222,"body":"is a coherent set of analyses."},{"startTime":1654.282,"endTime":1657.432,"body":"I love saying analyses,"},{"startTime":1654.282,"endTime":1657.432,"body":"concepts, policies, arguments,"},{"startTime":1657.432,"endTime":1661.542,"body":"and actions that respond"},{"startTime":1657.432,"endTime":1661.542,"body":"to a high stakes challenge."},{"startTime":1661.842,"endTime":1664.182,"body":"Not like a high"},{"startTime":1661.842,"endTime":1664.182,"body":"stakes ca casino."},{"startTime":1664.482,"endTime":1664.702,"body":"Bet."},{"startTime":1664.702,"endTime":1664.997,"body":"Yeah, casino."},{"startTime":1665.147,"endTime":1665.357,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1665.357,"endTime":1668.807,"body":"I do not like a high stakes"},{"startTime":1665.357,"endTime":1668.807,"body":"poker game at the, at the"},{"startTime":1668.867,"endTime":1672.207,"body":"casino Royale . But unlike"},{"startTime":1668.867,"endTime":1672.207,"body":"a standalone feature or OKR."},{"startTime":1672.207,"endTime":1675.507,"body":"Good product strategy"},{"startTime":1672.207,"endTime":1675.507,"body":"requires PMs to consistently"},{"startTime":1675.507,"endTime":1678.537,"body":"deliver features that build"},{"startTime":1675.507,"endTime":1678.537,"body":"towards a coherent roadmap"},{"startTime":1678.537,"endTime":1681.447,"body":"that enables a company to"},{"startTime":1678.537,"endTime":1681.447,"body":"achieve its overall strategy."},{"startTime":1681.797,"endTime":1685.117,"body":"That was tough to knock that"},{"startTime":1681.797,"endTime":1685.117,"body":"out in one breath.. All right."},{"startTime":1685.117,"endTime":1687.007,"body":"Let's talk about"},{"startTime":1685.117,"endTime":1687.007,"body":"product strategy."},{"startTime":1687.007,"endTime":1691.447,"body":"So I'm gonna, I'm gonna take,"},{"startTime":1687.007,"endTime":1691.447,"body":"I'm gonna take some umbridge."},{"startTime":1691.777,"endTime":1693.487,"body":"Ah, that was a good one."},{"startTime":1693.757,"endTime":1694.327,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":1694.357,"endTime":1694.627,"body":"Umbridge."},{"startTime":1694.627,"endTime":1695.017,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1695.017,"endTime":1695.617,"body":"You like that one?"},{"startTime":1695.667,"endTime":1700.107,"body":"From the word umbra where the"},{"startTime":1695.667,"endTime":1700.107,"body":"word umbrella is derived from."},{"startTime":1700.107,"endTime":1701.037,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":1701.097,"endTime":1701.337,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1701.337,"endTime":1702.687,"body":"I'm learning some  today."},{"startTime":1703.117,"endTime":1704.677,"body":"I'm gonna take some"},{"startTime":1703.117,"endTime":1704.677,"body":"umbrage with this one."},{"startTime":1705.007,"endTime":1706.657,"body":"I don't use the word"},{"startTime":1705.007,"endTime":1706.657,"body":"umbridge lightly."},{"startTime":1706.987,"endTime":1707.377,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1707.377,"endTime":1710.197,"body":"Like, I can jump into a, jump"},{"startTime":1707.377,"endTime":1710.197,"body":"into a tree shadow and go to"},{"startTime":1710.197,"endTime":1711.877,"body":"the nether realm or whatever."},{"startTime":1712.317,"endTime":1712.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1712.977,"endTime":1714.117,"body":"My kids play too much Minecraft,"},{"startTime":1714.277,"endTime":1717.037,"body":"Alright, so product"},{"startTime":1714.277,"endTime":1717.037,"body":"strategy, right?"},{"startTime":1717.037,"endTime":1718.867,"body":"That's the, that's the"},{"startTime":1717.037,"endTime":1718.867,"body":"section product strategy."},{"startTime":1718.867,"endTime":1720.502,"body":"I think this is probably"},{"startTime":1718.867,"endTime":1720.502,"body":"where I'm gonna start"},{"startTime":1720.802,"endTime":1721.722,"body":"disagreeing with things."},{"startTime":1721.867,"endTime":1722.137,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1722.377,"endTime":1725.057,"body":"So he has three categories"},{"startTime":1722.377,"endTime":1725.057,"body":"under product, strategy,"},{"startTime":1725.357,"endTime":1727.757,"body":"business outcome, ownership,"},{"startTime":1725.357,"endTime":1727.757,"body":"the ability to drive"},{"startTime":1727.757,"endTime":1731.897,"body":"meaningful outcomes for the"},{"startTime":1727.757,"endTime":1731.897,"body":"business, connected to product"},{"startTime":1731.897,"endTime":1733.487,"body":"functionality and goals, right?"},{"startTime":1733.967,"endTime":1734.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1734.027,"endTime":1734.957,"body":"Strategic objective."},{"startTime":1734.957,"endTime":1739.207,"body":"So taking your strategy,"},{"startTime":1734.957,"endTime":1739.207,"body":"turning into goals like going"},{"startTime":1739.207,"endTime":1741.637,"body":"back to our mission, vision,"},{"startTime":1739.207,"endTime":1741.637,"body":"strategy, goals type of thing."},{"startTime":1741.637,"endTime":1741.727,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1741.967,"endTime":1743.317,"body":"Taking your strategy."},{"startTime":1744.007,"endTime":1747.277,"body":"Turning into goals, driving"},{"startTime":1744.007,"endTime":1747.277,"body":"those goals into your roadmap"},{"startTime":1747.277,"endTime":1748.567,"body":"and actually delivering things."},{"startTime":1748.837,"endTime":1749.107,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1749.407,"endTime":1753.157,"body":"His next category is product"},{"startTime":1749.407,"endTime":1753.157,"body":"vision and roadmapping."},{"startTime":1753.457,"endTime":1753.727,"body":"All right?"},{"startTime":1753.762,"endTime":1755.932,"body":"The ability to define, I'm"},{"startTime":1753.762,"endTime":1755.932,"body":"gonna read his whole thing"},{"startTime":1755.932,"endTime":1759.742,"body":"without editing it, just so I"},{"startTime":1755.932,"endTime":1759.742,"body":"can align with what he's saying."},{"startTime":1760.012,"endTime":1762.982,"body":"The ability to define an"},{"startTime":1760.012,"endTime":1762.982,"body":"overall vision for the PM's"},{"startTime":1762.982,"endTime":1766.702,"body":"area of the product that can"},{"startTime":1762.982,"endTime":1766.702,"body":"connects to the strategy for"},{"startTime":1766.702,"endTime":1767.992,"body":"the team and the company."},{"startTime":1768.292,"endTime":1772.372,"body":"The ability to define a clear"},{"startTime":1768.292,"endTime":1772.372,"body":"roadmap of highly prioritized"},{"startTime":1772.372,"endTime":1775.252,"body":"features and initiatives that"},{"startTime":1772.372,"endTime":1775.252,"body":"deliver against that vision."},{"startTime":1775.642,"endTime":1778.522,"body":"And I wanna read the final"},{"startTime":1775.642,"endTime":1778.522,"body":"category, strategic impact."},{"startTime":1778.522,"endTime":1781.162,"body":"The ability to understand and"},{"startTime":1778.522,"endTime":1781.162,"body":"contribute to the business"},{"startTime":1781.162,"endTime":1784.182,"body":"strategy for PM's team and"},{"startTime":1781.162,"endTime":1784.182,"body":"the company overall, the"},{"startTime":1784.182,"endTime":1787.872,"body":"ability to bring strategy to"},{"startTime":1784.182,"endTime":1787.872,"body":"fruition through the consistent"},{"startTime":1787.872,"endTime":1789.492,"body":"delivery of business outcomes."},{"startTime":1789.942,"endTime":1790.272,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1790.572,"endTime":1793.632,"body":". So business outcome"},{"startTime":1790.572,"endTime":1793.632,"body":"ownership, like owning an"},{"startTime":1793.632,"endTime":1795.702,"body":"outcome, not just a feature."},{"startTime":1795.792,"endTime":1796.092,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1796.092,"endTime":1797.682,"body":"that's what I heard"},{"startTime":1796.092,"endTime":1797.682,"body":"out of that one."},{"startTime":1797.982,"endTime":1800.262,"body":"I don't see that's different"},{"startTime":1797.982,"endTime":1800.262,"body":"from the product delivery"},{"startTime":1800.262,"endTime":1802.952,"body":"and the earlier, he separated"},{"startTime":1800.262,"endTime":1802.952,"body":"them be, and I understand"},{"startTime":1802.952,"endTime":1805.382,"body":"why he separated them"},{"startTime":1802.952,"endTime":1805.382,"body":"because from his experience,"},{"startTime":1805.862,"endTime":1809.482,"body":"he's kind of an operations"},{"startTime":1805.862,"endTime":1809.482,"body":"guy , just get things done."},{"startTime":1809.582,"endTime":1812.462,"body":"Don't worry too much about like"},{"startTime":1809.582,"endTime":1812.462,"body":"finding the right thing to do."},{"startTime":1812.462,"endTime":1814.322,"body":"Just kind of do what I"},{"startTime":1812.462,"endTime":1814.322,"body":"tell you to do in the"},{"startTime":1814.322,"endTime":1815.222,"body":"order I tell you to do it."},{"startTime":1815.222,"endTime":1817.592,"body":"That's like, that's what I"},{"startTime":1815.222,"endTime":1817.592,"body":"think of as operations, right?"},{"startTime":1817.892,"endTime":1821.372,"body":"So, but he's saying like, it's"},{"startTime":1817.892,"endTime":1821.372,"body":"a different talent than just"},{"startTime":1821.372,"endTime":1825.842,"body":"delivering things to figure out"},{"startTime":1821.372,"endTime":1825.842,"body":"what business outcome levers"},{"startTime":1825.842,"endTime":1827.612,"body":"to pull to make a real impact."},{"startTime":1827.762,"endTime":1829.442,"body":"I think that's the"},{"startTime":1827.762,"endTime":1829.442,"body":"first category here."},{"startTime":1829.742,"endTime":1831.002,"body":"Okay, let's go with that."},{"startTime":1831.032,"endTime":1831.241,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1831.246,"endTime":1836.271,"body":"But then all of the seven levels"},{"startTime":1831.246,"endTime":1836.271,"body":"are lit up . i'm completely okay"},{"startTime":1836.271,"endTime":1837.411,"body":"with this categorization there."},{"startTime":1837.411,"endTime":1839.691,"body":"So, business outcome ownership."},{"startTime":1839.721,"endTime":1839.811,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1839.811,"endTime":1845.061,"body":"For an A PM, how does an"},{"startTime":1839.811,"endTime":1845.061,"body":"a PM own the outcome of"},{"startTime":1845.451,"endTime":1847.231,"body":"strategic objectives here?"},{"startTime":1847.301,"endTime":1850.811,"body":"I think they take ownership"},{"startTime":1847.301,"endTime":1850.811,"body":"of it when they hear about"},{"startTime":1851.231,"endTime":1855.041,"body":"the business strategy and"},{"startTime":1851.231,"endTime":1855.041,"body":"the goal coming from that"},{"startTime":1855.041,"endTime":1858.101,"body":"strategy, and they take the"},{"startTime":1855.041,"endTime":1858.101,"body":"whole goal and say, Hey, I'm"},{"startTime":1858.101,"endTime":1859.661,"body":"gonna make this goal my goal."},{"startTime":1860.111,"endTime":1863.471,"body":"And so they align their"},{"startTime":1860.111,"endTime":1863.471,"body":"delivery to the goal."},{"startTime":1863.931,"endTime":1866.771,"body":"so if I were an A PM in"},{"startTime":1863.931,"endTime":1866.771,"body":"a very large company, I"},{"startTime":1866.771,"endTime":1869.171,"body":"would hook myself my whole"},{"startTime":1866.771,"endTime":1869.171,"body":"career, everything to"},{"startTime":1869.171,"endTime":1871.721,"body":"one goal from a strategy."},{"startTime":1871.991,"endTime":1875.201,"body":"And I would fiercely deflect."},{"startTime":1875.501,"endTime":1878.351,"body":"Everything that didn't have"},{"startTime":1875.501,"endTime":1878.351,"body":"to do with that one goal, and"},{"startTime":1878.351,"endTime":1881.411,"body":"I would just defend my little"},{"startTime":1878.351,"endTime":1881.411,"body":"turf of my one goal and make a"},{"startTime":1881.411,"endTime":1882.911,"body":"real deep impact on my one goal."},{"startTime":1882.911,"endTime":1885.601,"body":"that's how I would do it as a"},{"startTime":1882.911,"endTime":1885.601,"body":"PM because again, I don't have"},{"startTime":1885.601,"endTime":1887.911,"body":"a lot of experience, so I'm"},{"startTime":1885.601,"endTime":1887.911,"body":"gonna make a lot of mistakes."},{"startTime":1887.911,"endTime":1890.911,"body":"So I wanna make sure that my"},{"startTime":1887.911,"endTime":1890.911,"body":"mistakes are in line with just"},{"startTime":1890.911,"endTime":1895.051,"body":"the one, like an APM think,"},{"startTime":1890.911,"endTime":1895.051,"body":"I think what I'm saying, I'm,"},{"startTime":1895.051,"endTime":1897.571,"body":"I'm a little bit facetious in"},{"startTime":1895.051,"endTime":1897.571,"body":"this category, but I, but I"},{"startTime":1897.571,"endTime":1901.081,"body":"think with an A PM, if you're"},{"startTime":1897.571,"endTime":1901.081,"body":"being viewed as more junior,"},{"startTime":1901.321,"endTime":1905.461,"body":"I think you can get away with"},{"startTime":1901.321,"endTime":1905.461,"body":"trying to scope your work with"},{"startTime":1905.461,"endTime":1907.021,"body":"a little bit of blinders on."},{"startTime":1907.321,"endTime":1910.381,"body":"Whereas when you're a senior"},{"startTime":1907.321,"endTime":1910.381,"body":"pm, this doesn't really fly."},{"startTime":1910.411,"endTime":1910.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1911.041,"endTime":1912.481,"body":"But you don't own the outcome."},{"startTime":1912.481,"endTime":1913.441,"body":"That's my point here."},{"startTime":1913.441,"endTime":1916.111,"body":"As an, as an a PM, you can't,"},{"startTime":1913.441,"endTime":1916.111,"body":"you, you don't have the"},{"startTime":1916.111,"endTime":1918.901,"body":"experience to own out outcomes."},{"startTime":1918.906,"endTime":1920.776,"body":"You alsot, you are basically"},{"startTime":1918.906,"endTime":1920.776,"body":"producing outputs that you"},{"startTime":1920.776,"endTime":1922.441,"body":"also don't have the, I mean,"},{"startTime":1920.776,"endTime":1922.441,"body":"in reality, you don't really"},{"startTime":1922.441,"endTime":1923.401,"body":"have the seniority either."},{"startTime":1923.461,"endTime":1923.971,"body":"You don't."},{"startTime":1924.061,"endTime":1926.551,"body":"You're just basically an"},{"startTime":1924.061,"endTime":1926.551,"body":"order taker at that stage."},{"startTime":1926.551,"endTime":1930.251,"body":"An outcome for me might be to"},{"startTime":1926.551,"endTime":1930.251,"body":"drive like, oh, I wrote the"},{"startTime":1930.251,"endTime":1933.791,"body":"backend, API data endpoint, I"},{"startTime":1930.251,"endTime":1933.791,"body":"need to drive it to one of my"},{"startTime":1933.791,"endTime":1936.881,"body":"teams that has a product with a"},{"startTime":1933.791,"endTime":1936.881,"body":"UI and a front end for them to"},{"startTime":1936.881,"endTime":1942.651,"body":"use and call my API endpoint to"},{"startTime":1936.881,"endTime":1942.651,"body":"surface it to customers or to"},{"startTime":1942.651,"endTime":1944.331,"body":"surface it to more customers."},{"startTime":1944.371,"endTime":1947.841,"body":"Maybe my tool's tiny and I"},{"startTime":1944.371,"endTime":1947.841,"body":"understand like, well, this is"},{"startTime":1947.841,"endTime":1949.521,"body":"an experience kind of thing."},{"startTime":1949.551,"endTime":1950.001,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1950.001,"endTime":1950.601,"body":"It's partially, yeah."},{"startTime":1950.651,"endTime":1953.651,"body":"but I would say, I would"},{"startTime":1950.651,"endTime":1953.651,"body":"lightly push back against"},{"startTime":1953.651,"endTime":1957.881,"body":"what you're saying by asking,"},{"startTime":1953.651,"endTime":1957.881,"body":"does the A PM need this skill?"},{"startTime":1958.211,"endTime":1959.321,"body":"I think that's a yes."},{"startTime":1959.381,"endTime":1960.791,"body":"Like they really"},{"startTime":1959.381,"endTime":1960.791,"body":"need this skill."},{"startTime":1960.851,"endTime":1962.951,"body":"They do need the skill,"},{"startTime":1960.851,"endTime":1962.951,"body":"but they don't necessarily"},{"startTime":1962.951,"endTime":1964.031,"body":"have it day one."},{"startTime":1964.331,"endTime":1964.691,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1964.691,"endTime":1964.722,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1964.722,"endTime":1966.821,"body":"So I, that's why I'm saying"},{"startTime":1964.722,"endTime":1966.821,"body":"that the business outcome"},{"startTime":1966.941,"endTime":1968.831,"body":"ownership for an A PM."},{"startTime":1969.131,"endTime":1971.111,"body":"Yeah, I can really"},{"startTime":1969.131,"endTime":1971.111,"body":"align myself with that."},{"startTime":1971.111,"endTime":1972.821,"body":"I think for a pm Yes, sure."},{"startTime":1972.881,"endTime":1974.591,"body":"You can start to"},{"startTime":1972.881,"endTime":1974.591,"body":"own things, right?"},{"startTime":1974.891,"endTime":1974.981,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1974.981,"endTime":1977.321,"body":"But as an a PM, you're"},{"startTime":1974.981,"endTime":1977.321,"body":"basically taking orders."},{"startTime":1977.351,"endTime":1977.621,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1977.861,"endTime":1982.371,"body":"Well is there anybody in this,"},{"startTime":1977.861,"endTime":1982.371,"body":"in this swim lane IC-PMs product"},{"startTime":1982.371,"endTime":1987.861,"body":"leaders, VP CPOs, is there"},{"startTime":1982.371,"endTime":1987.861,"body":"anyone that cannot does not need"},{"startTime":1987.861,"endTime":1991.041,"body":"to be able to coach this skill"},{"startTime":1987.861,"endTime":1991.041,"body":"or be coached on this skill?"},{"startTime":1991.311,"endTime":1993.981,"body":"I think, again, the, the"},{"startTime":1991.311,"endTime":1993.981,"body":"highlighting here that he"},{"startTime":1993.981,"endTime":1998.031,"body":"has, I think is great for this"},{"startTime":1993.981,"endTime":1998.031,"body":"question is like, everybody"},{"startTime":1998.031,"endTime":2000.881,"body":"needs to be actively seeking"},{"startTime":1998.031,"endTime":2000.881,"body":"coaching for sure on this skill."},{"startTime":2001.181,"endTime":2004.511,"body":"so those that are up there in"},{"startTime":2001.181,"endTime":2004.511,"body":"the upper end of the spectrum,"},{"startTime":2004.611,"endTime":2007.281,"body":"If they don't have it, then"},{"startTime":2004.611,"endTime":2007.281,"body":"they can't really coach those"},{"startTime":2007.281,"endTime":2010.041,"body":"below them and so forth,"},{"startTime":2007.281,"endTime":2010.041,"body":"business outcome ownership."},{"startTime":2010.221,"endTime":2012.561,"body":"This isn't taught in schools."},{"startTime":2012.966,"endTime":2015.576,"body":"You basically learn"},{"startTime":2012.966,"endTime":2015.576,"body":"this through experience."},{"startTime":2015.576,"endTime":2015.876,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2016.296,"endTime":2018.756,"body":"Which is why I say the a PM"},{"startTime":2016.296,"endTime":2018.756,"body":"probably doesn't have it."},{"startTime":2018.786,"endTime":2019.416,"body":"They need it."},{"startTime":2019.476,"endTime":2020.316,"body":"They need to learn it."},{"startTime":2020.506,"endTime":2022.846,"body":"Product vision and road mapping."},{"startTime":2022.896,"endTime":2024.906,"body":"This is a tough one because"},{"startTime":2022.896,"endTime":2024.906,"body":"I'm not really sure that"},{"startTime":2024.906,"endTime":2026.766,"body":"this is a real category."},{"startTime":2026.816,"endTime":2029.456,"body":"the ability to define overall"},{"startTime":2026.816,"endTime":2029.456,"body":"vision for the PM's area of"},{"startTime":2029.906,"endTime":2033.416,"body":"the product that connects"},{"startTime":2029.906,"endTime":2033.416,"body":"to the strategy, the ability"},{"startTime":2033.416,"endTime":2036.896,"body":"to define a clear roadmap of"},{"startTime":2033.416,"endTime":2036.896,"body":"highly prioritized features."},{"startTime":2037.066,"endTime":2039.616,"body":"so I think what he really"},{"startTime":2037.066,"endTime":2039.616,"body":"means is the ability to"},{"startTime":2040.066,"endTime":2043.546,"body":"create and maintain a"},{"startTime":2040.066,"endTime":2043.546,"body":"prioritized roadmap that"},{"startTime":2043.546,"endTime":2045.196,"body":"fulfills the strategy, right?"},{"startTime":2045.256,"endTime":2045.706,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2045.706,"endTime":2045.707,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2045.886,"endTime":2049.696,"body":"So again, looking at this,"},{"startTime":2045.886,"endTime":2049.696,"body":"the VPs at the top, they're"},{"startTime":2049.696,"endTime":2051.136,"body":"just setting the strategies."},{"startTime":2051.136,"endTime":2052.636,"body":"They're not creating"},{"startTime":2051.136,"endTime":2052.636,"body":"the roadmap."},{"startTime":2052.936,"endTime":2053.798,"body":"I'm with you already."},{"startTime":2053.798,"endTime":2055.618,"body":"Like, I would just,"},{"startTime":2053.798,"endTime":2055.618,"body":"shift this whole thing."},{"startTime":2055.918,"endTime":2057.778,"body":"Actually, I would"},{"startTime":2055.918,"endTime":2057.778,"body":"probably reverse."},{"startTime":2057.838,"endTime":2060.118,"body":"The way that he has this,"},{"startTime":2057.838,"endTime":2060.118,"body":"so he has the first one"},{"startTime":2060.118,"endTime":2061.138,"body":"completely grayed out."},{"startTime":2061.138,"endTime":2062.608,"body":"The APM is completely"},{"startTime":2061.138,"endTime":2062.608,"body":"grayed out."},{"startTime":2062.908,"endTime":2065.308,"body":"I mean, maybe we can quibble"},{"startTime":2062.908,"endTime":2065.308,"body":"a little bit about we, we've"},{"startTime":2065.308,"endTime":2067.408,"body":"been beating up the APM in"},{"startTime":2065.308,"endTime":2067.408,"body":"this podcast quite a bit."},{"startTime":2067.498,"endTime":2067.558,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2067.608,"endTime":2071.658,"body":"I think at the CPO level product"},{"startTime":2067.608,"endTime":2071.658,"body":"vision and roadmap, like even"},{"startTime":2071.658,"endTime":2075.918,"body":"a strategy, I've seen very few"},{"startTime":2071.658,"endTime":2075.918,"body":"VPs of product chief product"},{"startTime":2075.918,"endTime":2080.568,"body":"officers who even can come up"},{"startTime":2075.918,"endTime":2080.568,"body":"with a mission vision strategy."},{"startTime":2080.868,"endTime":2083.718,"body":"they even have a tough"},{"startTime":2080.868,"endTime":2083.718,"body":"time, this is like director"},{"startTime":2083.868,"endTime":2085.938,"body":"group, product manager"},{"startTime":2083.868,"endTime":2085.938,"body":"level type of stuff."},{"startTime":2085.938,"endTime":2088.008,"body":"those are the people that"},{"startTime":2085.938,"endTime":2088.008,"body":"I've observed that are really"},{"startTime":2088.008,"endTime":2091.128,"body":"good at saying like, I think"},{"startTime":2088.008,"endTime":2091.128,"body":"our company strategy is this."},{"startTime":2091.428,"endTime":2093.048,"body":"I think our product"},{"startTime":2091.428,"endTime":2093.048,"body":"strategy, if you have a"},{"startTime":2093.048,"endTime":2095.898,"body":"separate one, is this, I"},{"startTime":2093.048,"endTime":2095.898,"body":"think our goals are these."},{"startTime":2095.968,"endTime":2098.338,"body":"And the goals might be a"},{"startTime":2095.968,"endTime":2098.338,"body":"negotiation with the product"},{"startTime":2098.338,"endTime":2100.978,"body":"managers, like the individual"},{"startTime":2098.338,"endTime":2100.978,"body":"contributor product managers."},{"startTime":2101.428,"endTime":2104.378,"body":"But yeah, I would flip his"},{"startTime":2101.428,"endTime":2104.378,"body":"chart the opposite direction."},{"startTime":2104.843,"endTime":2106.973,"body":"Yeah, I concur with that because"},{"startTime":2104.843,"endTime":2106.973,"body":"even the apm, like you want to"},{"startTime":2106.973,"endTime":2111.053,"body":"get the APMs and the individual"},{"startTime":2106.973,"endTime":2111.053,"body":"contributor PMs involved in"},{"startTime":2111.353,"endTime":2112.463,"body":"all the road roadmapping stuff."},{"startTime":2112.493,"endTime":2114.173,"body":"'cause they're the ones that"},{"startTime":2112.493,"endTime":2114.173,"body":"have to carry out the roadmap."},{"startTime":2114.363,"endTime":2116.183,"body":"And they need to know how"},{"startTime":2114.363,"endTime":2116.183,"body":"to craft those, right."},{"startTime":2116.183,"endTime":2117.473,"body":"So yeah, absolutely agree."},{"startTime":2117.893,"endTime":2120.713,"body":"Alright, strategic impact,"},{"startTime":2117.893,"endTime":2120.713,"body":"the ability to understand"},{"startTime":2120.713,"endTime":2123.533,"body":"and contribute to the"},{"startTime":2120.713,"endTime":2123.533,"body":"business strategy for the"},{"startTime":2123.533,"endTime":2124.613,"body":"PM's team and company."},{"startTime":2125.063,"endTime":2128.363,"body":"This ability to bring strategy"},{"startTime":2125.063,"endTime":2128.363,"body":"to the fruition through"},{"startTime":2128.363,"endTime":2131.063,"body":"the consistent delivery"},{"startTime":2128.363,"endTime":2131.063,"body":"of business outcomes."},{"startTime":2131.253,"endTime":2133.023,"body":"I've read it twice now"},{"startTime":2131.253,"endTime":2133.023,"body":"and I don't understand"},{"startTime":2133.023,"endTime":2134.258,"body":"how it's different than"},{"startTime":2133.023,"endTime":2134.258,"body":"the first category."},{"startTime":2134.258,"endTime":2135.543,"body":"It's the same thing"},{"startTime":2134.258,"endTime":2135.543,"body":"in different words."},{"startTime":2135.573,"endTime":2135.813,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2135.963,"endTime":2136.263,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2136.563,"endTime":2138.213,"body":"Well, I mean, that's what"},{"startTime":2136.563,"endTime":2138.213,"body":"you do when you're in"},{"startTime":2138.213,"endTime":2139.353,"body":"consulting professionally."},{"startTime":2139.353,"endTime":2142.323,"body":"You repeat the same thing"},{"startTime":2139.353,"endTime":2142.323,"body":"over and over again."},{"startTime":2142.323,"endTime":2142.443,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2142.563,"endTime":2144.993,"body":"And you distill everything"},{"startTime":2142.563,"endTime":2144.993,"body":"down to a two by two,"},{"startTime":2144.993,"endTime":2146.193,"body":"give it a different score."},{"startTime":2146.403,"endTime":2149.343,"body":"So even if you, like, if we"},{"startTime":2146.403,"endTime":2149.343,"body":"took for a second and just"},{"startTime":2149.343,"endTime":2152.283,"body":"pretended that this was a"},{"startTime":2149.343,"endTime":2152.283,"body":"standalone swim lane, strategic"},{"startTime":2152.643,"endTime":2155.448,"body":"impact, why wouldn't every"},{"startTime":2152.643,"endTime":2155.448,"body":"category be highlighted?"},{"startTime":2155.748,"endTime":2156.258,"body":"Good point."},{"startTime":2156.318,"endTime":2156.978,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2156.978,"endTime":2159.018,"body":"Just, just like business"},{"startTime":2156.978,"endTime":2159.018,"body":"outcome ownership."},{"startTime":2159.018,"endTime":2160.518,"body":"Like every category"},{"startTime":2159.018,"endTime":2160.518,"body":"was highlighted."},{"startTime":2160.818,"endTime":2163.728,"body":"Everybody should be, I mean, why"},{"startTime":2160.818,"endTime":2163.728,"body":"would you work on anything that"},{"startTime":2163.728,"endTime":2165.138,"body":"doesn't have strategic impact?"},{"startTime":2165.588,"endTime":2168.198,"body":"You're just wasting time at"},{"startTime":2165.588,"endTime":2168.198,"body":"that point and resources."},{"startTime":2168.198,"endTime":2168.468,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2168.528,"endTime":2169.668,"body":"So yeah, agreed."},{"startTime":2170.018,"endTime":2170.888,"body":"That makes no sense."},{"startTime":2170.918,"endTime":2172.748,"body":"Alright, speaking of"},{"startTime":2170.918,"endTime":2172.748,"body":"no sense, let's move on"},{"startTime":2172.748,"endTime":2173.558,"body":"to the next category."},{"startTime":2173.908,"endTime":2176.098,"body":"So let's move on to"},{"startTime":2173.908,"endTime":2176.098,"body":"the last section called"},{"startTime":2176.128,"endTime":2177.148,"body":"Influencing People."},{"startTime":2177.148,"endTime":2179.848,"body":"He says, peak PMs know"},{"startTime":2177.148,"endTime":2179.848,"body":"that they're only as"},{"startTime":2179.848,"endTime":2181.288,"body":"effective as their team."},{"startTime":2181.688,"endTime":2185.048,"body":"Like they view themselves"},{"startTime":2181.688,"endTime":2185.048,"body":"as the connective tissue"},{"startTime":2185.108,"endTime":2186.278,"body":"within the organization."},{"startTime":2186.278,"endTime":2186.969,"body":"Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."},{"startTime":2187.283,"endTime":2189.398,"body":"I, I do not view"},{"startTime":2187.283,"endTime":2189.398,"body":"myself as tissue."},{"startTime":2189.938,"endTime":2190.748,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":2191.348,"endTime":2193.808,"body":"That was when I worked in"},{"startTime":2191.348,"endTime":2193.808,"body":"the Air Force the, I would"},{"startTime":2193.808,"endTime":2196.738,"body":"always hear like we need"},{"startTime":2193.808,"endTime":2196.738,"body":"more bodies over here."},{"startTime":2196.738,"endTime":2198.208,"body":"We need more bodies over here."},{"startTime":2198.208,"endTime":2201.208,"body":"I'm like, I'm not, I'm not"},{"startTime":2198.208,"endTime":2201.208,"body":"a body to be passed around."},{"startTime":2201.208,"endTime":2201.928,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":2201.958,"endTime":2203.098,"body":"I'm a nobody."},{"startTime":2203.218,"endTime":2204.688,"body":"Ooh, I ain't got no body."},{"startTime":2204.988,"endTime":2206.008,"body":"Where's David Lee Roth?"},{"startTime":2206.128,"endTime":2206.338,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2206.638,"endTime":2209.188,"body":"as they take on roles"},{"startTime":2206.638,"endTime":2209.188,"body":"of increasing scope and"},{"startTime":2209.188,"endTime":2211.828,"body":"responsibility to learn how"},{"startTime":2209.188,"endTime":2211.828,"body":"to build and mentor strong"},{"startTime":2211.828,"endTime":2215.698,"body":"PM teams, peak PMs I've"},{"startTime":2211.828,"endTime":2215.698,"body":"said peak so many times."},{"startTime":2215.748,"endTime":2218.028,"body":"the word is starting"},{"startTime":2215.748,"endTime":2218.028,"body":"to lose all meaning."},{"startTime":2218.328,"endTime":2221.208,"body":"Peak PMs are able to multiply"},{"startTime":2218.328,"endTime":2221.208,"body":"their impact by enabling"},{"startTime":2221.208,"endTime":2224.568,"body":"the people around them to"},{"startTime":2221.208,"endTime":2224.568,"body":"contribute to and own the"},{"startTime":2224.568,"endTime":2227.868,"body":"business impact necessary to"},{"startTime":2224.568,"endTime":2227.868,"body":"achieve the company strategy."},{"startTime":2227.903,"endTime":2232.338,"body":"I, I really like some of this"},{"startTime":2227.903,"endTime":2232.338,"body":"sentence, which is the best."},{"startTime":2232.698,"endTime":2236.448,"body":"Product managers are able"},{"startTime":2232.698,"endTime":2236.448,"body":"to multiply their impact by"},{"startTime":2236.448,"endTime":2238.158,"body":"enabling the people around them."},{"startTime":2238.278,"endTime":2238.398,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2238.458,"endTime":2239.898,"body":"They're force multiplier."},{"startTime":2240.108,"endTime":2242.518,"body":"He could have said that"},{"startTime":2240.108,"endTime":2242.518,"body":"in one sentence, but the"},{"startTime":2242.518,"endTime":2245.748,"body":"consulting version of this"},{"startTime":2242.518,"endTime":2245.748,"body":"is to stretch it out because"},{"startTime":2245.748,"endTime":2247.158,"body":"you get paid by words."},{"startTime":2247.338,"endTime":2248.958,"body":"It's very Dickensian"},{"startTime":2247.338,"endTime":2248.958,"body":"is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2249.348,"endTime":2252.378,"body":"So in the influencing"},{"startTime":2249.348,"endTime":2252.378,"body":"people category, he has"},{"startTime":2252.468,"endTime":2254.538,"body":"three subcategories."},{"startTime":2254.538,"endTime":2256.638,"body":"He has stakeholder"},{"startTime":2254.538,"endTime":2256.638,"body":"management, team"},{"startTime":2256.638,"endTime":2258.588,"body":"leadership, and managing up."},{"startTime":2259.008,"endTime":2259.728,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2259.728,"endTime":2261.498,"body":"These, like good"},{"startTime":2259.728,"endTime":2261.498,"body":"categories managing up."},{"startTime":2261.548,"endTime":2263.438,"body":"that's salt in the"},{"startTime":2261.548,"endTime":2263.438,"body":"wound managing up here."},{"startTime":2263.678,"endTime":2266.108,"body":"All right, so for stakeholder"},{"startTime":2263.678,"endTime":2266.108,"body":"management, he says the"},{"startTime":2266.108,"endTime":2269.048,"body":"ability to proactively identify"},{"startTime":2266.108,"endTime":2269.048,"body":"stakeholders impacted by the"},{"startTime":2269.048,"endTime":2272.108,"body":"PM's area of ownership and to"},{"startTime":2269.048,"endTime":2272.108,"body":"work with those stakeholders"},{"startTime":2272.378,"endTime":2275.108,"body":"to factor their requirements"},{"startTime":2272.378,"endTime":2275.108,"body":"into product decisions."},{"startTime":2275.408,"endTime":2275.708,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2276.008,"endTime":2278.318,"body":"So for those of you,"},{"startTime":2276.008,"endTime":2278.318,"body":"again, who can't see this."},{"startTime":2278.618,"endTime":2281.738,"body":"Almost every category is"},{"startTime":2278.618,"endTime":2281.738,"body":"highlighted, but the a PM and"},{"startTime":2281.738,"endTime":2286.248,"body":"the pm, so the, the low level"},{"startTime":2281.738,"endTime":2286.248,"body":"well, actually the most of"},{"startTime":2286.248,"endTime":2290.298,"body":"the individual contributor PMs"},{"startTime":2286.248,"endTime":2290.298,"body":"are kind of like grayed out on"},{"startTime":2290.298,"endTime":2292.338,"body":"this stakeholder management."},{"startTime":2292.578,"endTime":2296.078,"body":"Before you get in here, I'm"},{"startTime":2292.578,"endTime":2296.078,"body":"gonna say I don't like this,"},{"startTime":2296.408,"endTime":2298.238,"body":"I don't like this because"},{"startTime":2296.408,"endTime":2298.238,"body":"I, this is another one of"},{"startTime":2298.238,"endTime":2299.798,"body":"those categories I see in"},{"startTime":2298.238,"endTime":2299.798,"body":"the opposite direction."},{"startTime":2299.798,"endTime":2303.698,"body":"Actually I see the VPs and the"},{"startTime":2299.798,"endTime":2303.698,"body":"chief product officer, the more"},{"startTime":2303.698,"endTime":2306.578,"body":"senior people, like they're the"},{"startTime":2303.698,"endTime":2306.578,"body":"ones that don't really talk to"},{"startTime":2306.578,"endTime":2308.018,"body":"most people on a regular basis."},{"startTime":2308.048,"endTime":2311.168,"body":"The people that are"},{"startTime":2308.048,"endTime":2311.168,"body":"constantly just hammering"},{"startTime":2311.168,"endTime":2313.958,"body":"stakeholder communication"},{"startTime":2311.168,"endTime":2313.958,"body":"at an overwhelming pace."},{"startTime":2313.988,"endTime":2314.198,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2314.498,"endTime":2317.648,"body":"Should be the individual"},{"startTime":2314.498,"endTime":2317.648,"body":"contributor PMs."},{"startTime":2317.948,"endTime":2318.518,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2318.518,"endTime":2321.398,"body":"That I was gonna suggest that"},{"startTime":2318.518,"endTime":2321.398,"body":"I vehemently disagree with"},{"startTime":2321.398,"endTime":2325.358,"body":"this, the color shading on this"},{"startTime":2321.398,"endTime":2325.358,"body":", and would flip it basically."},{"startTime":2325.658,"endTime":2328.198,"body":"Because the VPs, the"},{"startTime":2325.658,"endTime":2328.198,"body":"senior people, right."},{"startTime":2328.288,"endTime":2330.718,"body":"They're not really"},{"startTime":2328.288,"endTime":2330.718,"body":"worried about I, you know,"},{"startTime":2330.718,"endTime":2332.098,"body":"identifying stakeholders."},{"startTime":2332.258,"endTime":2336.518,"body":"And, and how to make sure that"},{"startTime":2332.258,"endTime":2336.518,"body":"the, the product managers realm,"},{"startTime":2336.668,"endTime":2340.968,"body":"the product decisions as he says"},{"startTime":2336.668,"endTime":2340.968,"body":"here, impact those stakeholders."},{"startTime":2340.968,"endTime":2343.008,"body":"Like that's, they're"},{"startTime":2340.968,"endTime":2343.008,"body":"way above that."},{"startTime":2343.208,"endTime":2343.598,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2343.808,"endTime":2349.088,"body":"So your APMs PMs, possibly"},{"startTime":2343.808,"endTime":2349.088,"body":"the senior PM CPOs perhaps"},{"startTime":2349.398,"endTime":2351.738,"body":", that's the color shading"},{"startTime":2349.398,"endTime":2351.738,"body":"that I would put on this."},{"startTime":2351.918,"endTime":2352.848,"body":"I sort of agree with that."},{"startTime":2352.848,"endTime":2355.968,"body":"I mean, there is a pushback"},{"startTime":2352.848,"endTime":2355.968,"body":"here to say like, well, if"},{"startTime":2355.968,"endTime":2359.238,"body":"they have to coach these skills"},{"startTime":2355.968,"endTime":2359.238,"body":"there's an argument to say"},{"startTime":2359.418,"endTime":2365.148,"body":"like, your chief product officer"},{"startTime":2359.418,"endTime":2365.148,"body":"should be able to break down a"},{"startTime":2365.238,"endTime":2367.158,"body":"segmented group of stakeholders."},{"startTime":2367.458,"endTime":2369.528,"body":"And identify their"},{"startTime":2367.458,"endTime":2369.528,"body":"communication needs and"},{"startTime":2369.528,"endTime":2372.288,"body":"really help you say, Hey,"},{"startTime":2369.528,"endTime":2372.288,"body":"we're not doing enough here."},{"startTime":2372.558,"endTime":2375.348,"body":"We're not doing enough there"},{"startTime":2372.558,"endTime":2375.348,"body":", in reality, what I've seen is"},{"startTime":2375.528,"endTime":2376.698,"body":"in fact quite the opposite."},{"startTime":2376.848,"endTime":2378.858,"body":"The people with the marketing"},{"startTime":2376.848,"endTime":2378.858,"body":"skills and whatnot, like"},{"startTime":2378.858,"endTime":2381.408,"body":"they're in marketing and"},{"startTime":2378.858,"endTime":2381.408,"body":"sometimes you'll get a,"},{"startTime":2381.738,"endTime":2384.108,"body":"you'll get like a, maybe"},{"startTime":2381.738,"endTime":2384.108,"body":"not a chief product officer."},{"startTime":2384.108,"endTime":2387.978,"body":"You, you'll get a high level"},{"startTime":2384.108,"endTime":2387.978,"body":"product person whose background"},{"startTime":2387.978,"endTime":2390.228,"body":"is not in product management,"},{"startTime":2387.978,"endTime":2390.228,"body":"it's in product marketing,"},{"startTime":2390.468,"endTime":2392.358,"body":"but maybe the company can't"},{"startTime":2390.468,"endTime":2392.358,"body":"tell the difference between"},{"startTime":2392.358,"endTime":2394.788,"body":"product marketing and product"},{"startTime":2392.358,"endTime":2394.788,"body":"management , and then those"},{"startTime":2394.788,"endTime":2398.538,"body":"people were really freely"},{"startTime":2394.788,"endTime":2398.538,"body":"identify those people really."},{"startTime":2398.838,"endTime":2401.808,"body":"Will be able to segment"},{"startTime":2398.838,"endTime":2401.808,"body":"stakeholder groups"},{"startTime":2402.018,"endTime":2402.978,"body":"quickly and easily."},{"startTime":2403.218,"endTime":2405.528,"body":"'cause they really naturally"},{"startTime":2403.218,"endTime":2405.528,"body":"understand like, these"},{"startTime":2405.528,"endTime":2407.298,"body":"people really care about"},{"startTime":2405.528,"endTime":2407.298,"body":"this, and those people"},{"startTime":2407.298,"endTime":2408.018,"body":"really care about that."},{"startTime":2408.018,"endTime":2409.908,"body":"And I'm gonna completely"},{"startTime":2408.018,"endTime":2409.908,"body":"separate those groups."},{"startTime":2410.388,"endTime":2412.728,"body":"And they can help you a lot with"},{"startTime":2410.388,"endTime":2412.728,"body":"your lines of communication."},{"startTime":2412.728,"endTime":2414.338,"body":"But how typical that is."},{"startTime":2414.338,"endTime":2416.958,"body":"I don't know, like my experience"},{"startTime":2414.338,"endTime":2416.958,"body":"not, I've not seen VPs coaching"},{"startTime":2416.958,"endTime":2420.228,"body":"down this particular skill,"},{"startTime":2416.958,"endTime":2420.228,"body":"but I've, I have seen the"},{"startTime":2420.228,"endTime":2425.188,"body":"occasional savvy, experienced"},{"startTime":2420.228,"endTime":2425.188,"body":"veteran salesperson do this."},{"startTime":2425.188,"endTime":2425.278,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2425.308,"endTime":2428.048,"body":"Because they understand"},{"startTime":2425.308,"endTime":2428.048,"body":"the landscape of, the"},{"startTime":2428.048,"endTime":2428.948,"body":"stakeholders, right?"},{"startTime":2429.168,"endTime":2430.038,"body":"So they can do that."},{"startTime":2430.398,"endTime":2431.778,"body":"And that's a great"},{"startTime":2430.398,"endTime":2431.778,"body":"thing to point out."},{"startTime":2431.778,"endTime":2434.328,"body":"We normally look at people"},{"startTime":2431.778,"endTime":2434.328,"body":"in that role, like people"},{"startTime":2434.378,"endTime":2436.313,"body":"that only ever worked in"},{"startTime":2434.378,"endTime":2436.313,"body":"sales and then became like"},{"startTime":2436.313,"endTime":2437.183,"body":"a chief product officer."},{"startTime":2437.238,"endTime":2440.298,"body":"I normally will look at that"},{"startTime":2437.238,"endTime":2440.298,"body":"negatively because there's"},{"startTime":2440.348,"endTime":2443.018,"body":"a lot that is not on the"},{"startTime":2440.348,"endTime":2443.018,"body":"table in that scenario."},{"startTime":2443.318,"endTime":2445.418,"body":"But if you're looking at"},{"startTime":2443.318,"endTime":2445.418,"body":"it, if you are an individual"},{"startTime":2445.418,"endTime":2447.278,"body":"contributor product manager"},{"startTime":2445.418,"endTime":2447.278,"body":"and you work under someone"},{"startTime":2447.278,"endTime":2449.888,"body":"like that, you have an"},{"startTime":2447.278,"endTime":2449.888,"body":"opportunity to say, Hey, what"},{"startTime":2449.888,"endTime":2451.208,"body":"can I learn from this person?"},{"startTime":2451.298,"endTime":2451.448,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2451.778,"endTime":2454.088,"body":"Well this stakeholder"},{"startTime":2451.778,"endTime":2454.088,"body":"segmentation, like what actually"},{"startTime":2454.088,"endTime":2456.398,"body":"could impact and hit the"},{"startTime":2454.088,"endTime":2456.398,"body":"hardest with this audience?"},{"startTime":2456.698,"endTime":2456.998,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2457.028,"endTime":2457.838,"body":"Reach out."},{"startTime":2457.898,"endTime":2459.698,"body":"'cause that actually"},{"startTime":2457.898,"endTime":2459.698,"body":"is in their wheelhouse."},{"startTime":2459.998,"endTime":2461.618,"body":"The rest of the stuff had"},{"startTime":2459.998,"endTime":2461.618,"body":"to actually do product."},{"startTime":2461.618,"endTime":2462.638,"body":"Like they can't"},{"startTime":2461.618,"endTime":2462.638,"body":"help you with that."},{"startTime":2462.638,"endTime":2463.388,"body":"So, right."},{"startTime":2463.808,"endTime":2466.238,"body":"I guess keep your resume"},{"startTime":2463.808,"endTime":2466.238,"body":"updated and listen to your"},{"startTime":2466.238,"endTime":2467.318,"body":"arguing Agile podcast."},{"startTime":2467.378,"endTime":2471.698,"body":"So the next category here"},{"startTime":2467.378,"endTime":2471.698,"body":"is team leadership, the"},{"startTime":2471.698,"endTime":2473.678,"body":"ability to manage and"},{"startTime":2471.698,"endTime":2473.678,"body":"mentor direct reports."},{"startTime":2474.053,"endTime":2477.493,"body":"Team leadership, team leadership"},{"startTime":2474.053,"endTime":2477.493,"body":"mentoring you know, more"},{"startTime":2477.493,"endTime":2480.223,"body":"junior folks or helping out"},{"startTime":2477.493,"endTime":2480.223,"body":"your peers, I guess, too."},{"startTime":2480.253,"endTime":2483.308,"body":"'cause again, sometimes"},{"startTime":2480.253,"endTime":2483.308,"body":"maybe you've got a mix of"},{"startTime":2483.308,"endTime":2484.748,"body":"individual contributor PMs."},{"startTime":2484.928,"endTime":2486.878,"body":"Some of them were hired"},{"startTime":2484.928,"endTime":2486.878,"body":"with industry experience."},{"startTime":2486.938,"endTime":2489.038,"body":"Some of 'em are hired with"},{"startTime":2486.938,"endTime":2489.038,"body":"PM experience that they don't"},{"startTime":2489.038,"endTime":2490.088,"body":"have the industry experience."},{"startTime":2490.088,"endTime":2490.148,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2490.148,"endTime":2492.038,"body":"So like you want that"},{"startTime":2490.148,"endTime":2492.038,"body":"team working together,"},{"startTime":2492.038,"endTime":2494.438,"body":"meshing together and"},{"startTime":2492.038,"endTime":2494.438,"body":"teaching each other."},{"startTime":2494.738,"endTime":2495.848,"body":"Reaching across the aisle."},{"startTime":2495.898,"endTime":2496.348,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2496.498,"endTime":2498.598,"body":"This color shading isn't"},{"startTime":2496.498,"endTime":2498.598,"body":"too far off for me."},{"startTime":2498.598,"endTime":2501.848,"body":"I think this is good because"},{"startTime":2498.598,"endTime":2501.848,"body":"the junior folks there, well,"},{"startTime":2501.848,"endTime":2505.858,"body":"they're not leaders, so,"},{"startTime":2501.848,"endTime":2505.858,"body":", they become leaders by being"},{"startTime":2505.858,"endTime":2507.268,"body":"mentored by those that are"},{"startTime":2507.318,"endTime":2508.968,"body":"Now we're in the middle"},{"startTime":2507.318,"endTime":2508.968,"body":"of that spectrum."},{"startTime":2508.978,"endTime":2511.138,"body":"And likewise at the top of them."},{"startTime":2511.198,"endTime":2514.508,"body":"these people at the very"},{"startTime":2511.198,"endTime":2514.508,"body":"top execs and leaders, They"},{"startTime":2514.508,"endTime":2517.258,"body":"didn't become leaders just,"},{"startTime":2514.508,"endTime":2517.258,"body":"through their technical"},{"startTime":2517.258,"endTime":2518.038,"body":"skills or anything."},{"startTime":2518.038,"endTime":2519.658,"body":"They become leaders"},{"startTime":2518.038,"endTime":2519.658,"body":"because they're good"},{"startTime":2519.748,"endTime":2521.578,"body":"people, people, right."},{"startTime":2521.848,"endTime":2523.768,"body":"They know how to"},{"startTime":2521.848,"endTime":2523.768,"body":"work with people."},{"startTime":2524.098,"endTime":2528.358,"body":"So if they coach down and"},{"startTime":2524.098,"endTime":2528.358,"body":"mentor down that, that can work."},{"startTime":2528.538,"endTime":2531.418,"body":"So team leadership I think"},{"startTime":2528.538,"endTime":2531.418,"body":"is pretty close to, you"},{"startTime":2531.418,"endTime":2532.648,"body":"know, how I would've put it."},{"startTime":2533.098,"endTime":2535.558,"body":"That's interesting because I"},{"startTime":2533.098,"endTime":2535.558,"body":"would, I would apply what you"},{"startTime":2535.558,"endTime":2538.678,"body":"just said to the next category,"},{"startTime":2535.558,"endTime":2538.678,"body":"to the managing up category."},{"startTime":2538.678,"endTime":2542.508,"body":"I would say the more senior"},{"startTime":2538.678,"endTime":2542.508,"body":"you get in this track,"},{"startTime":2542.808,"endTime":2545.898,"body":"individual contributor,"},{"startTime":2542.808,"endTime":2545.898,"body":"product leader, CPO, the"},{"startTime":2545.898,"endTime":2547.728,"body":"better you are at managing up."},{"startTime":2547.728,"endTime":2550.848,"body":"And I would say the only reason"},{"startTime":2547.728,"endTime":2550.848,"body":"you got that promotion to"},{"startTime":2550.848,"endTime":2554.538,"body":"that level is because you're"},{"startTime":2550.848,"endTime":2554.538,"body":"really good at managing up."},{"startTime":2554.928,"endTime":2556.788,"body":"And I would say like the"},{"startTime":2554.928,"endTime":2556.788,"body":"team leadership thing"},{"startTime":2557.178,"endTime":2558.918,"body":"would be switched in"},{"startTime":2557.178,"endTime":2558.918,"body":"the opposite direction."},{"startTime":2559.058,"endTime":2562.688,"body":"I would hope that it is the"},{"startTime":2559.058,"endTime":2562.688,"body":"way that you're presenting it."},{"startTime":2563.018,"endTime":2563.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2563.618,"endTime":2564.398,"body":"Well that's the ideal."},{"startTime":2564.428,"endTime":2567.238,"body":"I would hope that, like in"},{"startTime":2564.428,"endTime":2567.238,"body":"the military for example, the"},{"startTime":2567.238,"endTime":2569.948,"body":"people that are in the role of"},{"startTime":2567.238,"endTime":2569.948,"body":"general or admiral or whatever,"},{"startTime":2569.948,"endTime":2571.158,"body":"like, the flag officers."},{"startTime":2571.188,"endTime":2571.278,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2571.608,"endTime":2574.278,"body":"I would hope that they have"},{"startTime":2571.608,"endTime":2574.278,"body":"the leadership skill where no"},{"startTime":2574.278,"endTime":2578.058,"body":"matter what team they're with,"},{"startTime":2574.278,"endTime":2578.058,"body":"new team, temporary team go"},{"startTime":2578.058,"endTime":2580.008,"body":"to a conference and they get"},{"startTime":2578.058,"endTime":2580.008,"body":"assigned with a group of people."},{"startTime":2580.058,"endTime":2583.148,"body":"They can quickly whip that"},{"startTime":2580.058,"endTime":2583.148,"body":"group into a working functional"},{"startTime":2583.148,"endTime":2587.518,"body":"unit very quickly just"},{"startTime":2583.148,"endTime":2587.518,"body":"because of their honed skill"},{"startTime":2587.698,"endTime":2590.758,"body":"at leadership that they've"},{"startTime":2587.698,"endTime":2590.758,"body":"honed over an entire career,"},{"startTime":2591.058,"endTime":2593.758,"body":"just naturally it seems"},{"startTime":2591.058,"endTime":2593.758,"body":"natural to everyone else."},{"startTime":2593.978,"endTime":2595.058,"body":"it's not actually natural."},{"startTime":2595.178,"endTime":2596.738,"body":"It's honed over a whole career."},{"startTime":2596.768,"endTime":2597.218,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2597.308,"endTime":2598.178,"body":"Of, working with teams."},{"startTime":2598.488,"endTime":2602.258,"body":"But like in my experience"},{"startTime":2598.488,"endTime":2602.258,"body":"it's actually not, again,"},{"startTime":2602.258,"endTime":2604.778,"body":"in product that is not true."},{"startTime":2604.958,"endTime":2607.598,"body":"Only because the people at the"},{"startTime":2604.958,"endTime":2607.598,"body":"most senior levels of product,"},{"startTime":2607.778,"endTime":2610.178,"body":"it's very hit or miss where"},{"startTime":2607.778,"endTime":2610.178,"body":"they came from, you know?"},{"startTime":2610.538,"endTime":2610.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2610.748,"endTime":2612.188,"body":"For product specifically."},{"startTime":2612.188,"endTime":2612.698,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2612.728,"endTime":2612.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2612.878,"endTime":2614.048,"body":"Yes, that's very true."},{"startTime":2614.378,"endTime":2616.628,"body":"Some of the times when you look"},{"startTime":2614.378,"endTime":2616.628,"body":"at these leaders at the very"},{"startTime":2616.628,"endTime":2619.898,"body":"top in product specifically,"},{"startTime":2616.628,"endTime":2619.898,"body":"and you wonder if they've"},{"startTime":2620.018,"endTime":2621.038,"body":"worked on a product before."},{"startTime":2621.038,"endTime":2623.548,"body":"Well, where I got hung up"},{"startTime":2621.038,"endTime":2623.548,"body":"with this one, with this team"},{"startTime":2623.548,"endTime":2627.288,"body":"leadership category is with"},{"startTime":2623.548,"endTime":2627.288,"body":"the graphic he has here, it"},{"startTime":2627.288,"endTime":2630.228,"body":"implies the people at the most"},{"startTime":2627.288,"endTime":2630.228,"body":"senior levels should be able"},{"startTime":2630.228,"endTime":2632.508,"body":"to coach those skills down."},{"startTime":2632.808,"endTime":2633.138,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2633.138,"endTime":2636.348,"body":"But I've seen the"},{"startTime":2633.138,"endTime":2636.348,"body":"direct opposite this,"},{"startTime":2636.348,"endTime":2638.028,"body":"this is ideal, right?"},{"startTime":2638.028,"endTime":2641.268,"body":"This is how we wish it was,"},{"startTime":2638.028,"endTime":2641.268,"body":"but sure, the real life"},{"startTime":2641.318,"endTime":2642.488,"body":"scenarios are very different."},{"startTime":2642.668,"endTime":2642.878,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2642.933,"endTime":2644.373,"body":"So the last one, managing up."},{"startTime":2644.403,"endTime":2646.203,"body":"So I already gave away,"},{"startTime":2644.403,"endTime":2646.203,"body":"I already played my"},{"startTime":2646.203,"endTime":2647.013,"body":"hand with managing up."},{"startTime":2647.013,"endTime":2648.663,"body":"I already showed you all"},{"startTime":2647.013,"endTime":2648.663,"body":"my cards are managing up."},{"startTime":2648.663,"endTime":2652.623,"body":"I think, I think the managing"},{"startTime":2648.663,"endTime":2652.623,"body":"up track here is correct."},{"startTime":2652.923,"endTime":2652.983,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2653.043,"endTime":2655.443,"body":"I think the, the, the"},{"startTime":2653.043,"endTime":2655.443,"body":"people at the top of the"},{"startTime":2655.443,"endTime":2658.053,"body":"organization, they become"},{"startTime":2655.443,"endTime":2658.053,"body":"very good at managing up."},{"startTime":2658.173,"endTime":2660.423,"body":"And if I was to change"},{"startTime":2658.173,"endTime":2660.423,"body":"the name of managing up"},{"startTime":2660.423,"endTime":2662.343,"body":"to something else, they'd"},{"startTime":2660.423,"endTime":2662.343,"body":"be good at that too."},{"startTime":2662.693,"endTime":2663.683,"body":"Yeah, we can't do that."},{"startTime":2663.683,"endTime":2664.793,"body":"This is a family podcast."},{"startTime":2664.793,"endTime":2665.423,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2665.473,"endTime":2666.613,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that too."},{"startTime":2666.613,"endTime":2668.293,"body":"I mean, look, it is"},{"startTime":2666.613,"endTime":2668.293,"body":"what it is, right?"},{"startTime":2668.423,"endTime":2672.193,"body":"This actually aligns to what"},{"startTime":2668.423,"endTime":2672.193,"body":"we see in real life too, right?"},{"startTime":2672.403,"endTime":2675.733,"body":"People that are up there,"},{"startTime":2672.403,"endTime":2675.733,"body":"they got up there because"},{"startTime":2675.733,"endTime":2676.513,"body":"they know what to do."},{"startTime":2676.723,"endTime":2676.903,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2676.903,"endTime":2676.993,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2677.293,"endTime":2677.593,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2677.593,"endTime":2681.013,"body":"So now we're at a point where we"},{"startTime":2677.593,"endTime":2681.013,"body":"can summarize this whole thing."},{"startTime":2681.313,"endTime":2681.643,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2681.643,"endTime":2681.823,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2682.123,"endTime":2685.033,"body":"I guess if I had to say this"},{"startTime":2682.123,"endTime":2685.033,"body":"out loud, I'd say this could"},{"startTime":2685.033,"endTime":2688.783,"body":"have been a one pager, probably,"},{"startTime":2685.033,"endTime":2688.783,"body":"you know, that diagram."},{"startTime":2688.833,"endTime":2691.053,"body":"It didn't need to"},{"startTime":2688.833,"endTime":2691.053,"body":"be so many segments."},{"startTime":2691.263,"endTime":2693.123,"body":"It didn't need to be so complex."},{"startTime":2693.423,"endTime":2696.513,"body":"We didn't need to have"},{"startTime":2693.423,"endTime":2696.513,"body":"seven layers in there."},{"startTime":2696.693,"endTime":2699.513,"body":"But again, to your point, you"},{"startTime":2696.693,"endTime":2699.513,"body":"know, this may be representing"},{"startTime":2699.513,"endTime":2701.193,"body":"the Silicon Valley model."},{"startTime":2701.583,"endTime":2704.103,"body":"Well, he has some, in the end"},{"startTime":2701.583,"endTime":2704.103,"body":"of the article, he has some"},{"startTime":2704.103,"endTime":2706.563,"body":"takeaways to say like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2704.103,"endTime":2706.563,"body":"you know, look at this, look"},{"startTime":2706.563,"endTime":2711.033,"body":"at this chart and find yourself"},{"startTime":2706.563,"endTime":2711.033,"body":"on here for what you're doing."},{"startTime":2711.033,"endTime":2713.643,"body":"Well, find yourself on here"},{"startTime":2711.033,"endTime":2713.643,"body":"for what you're not doing well."},{"startTime":2713.913,"endTime":2717.413,"body":"And then kind of evaluate"},{"startTime":2713.913,"endTime":2717.413,"body":"yourself and you know, ask"},{"startTime":2717.413,"endTime":2718.923,"body":"for help where you need help."},{"startTime":2718.923,"endTime":2721.453,"body":"and then for people that are"},{"startTime":2718.923,"endTime":2721.453,"body":"the product leaders here who"},{"startTime":2721.453,"endTime":2723.043,"body":"actually hire product managers?"},{"startTime":2723.223,"endTime":2724.893,"body":"You know hire better PMs,"},{"startTime":2724.993,"endTime":2726.973,"body":"number one, hire better"},{"startTime":2724.993,"endTime":2726.973,"body":"PMs, obviously, right?"},{"startTime":2727.003,"endTime":2728.833,"body":"Like people have more"},{"startTime":2727.003,"endTime":2728.833,"body":"of these skills, right?"},{"startTime":2728.833,"endTime":2732.703,"body":"And then the other one is create"},{"startTime":2728.833,"endTime":2732.703,"body":"a more balanced team because"},{"startTime":2732.753,"endTime":2736.053,"body":"you want some people with,"},{"startTime":2732.753,"endTime":2736.053,"body":"so let me present this and"},{"startTime":2736.053,"endTime":2737.013,"body":"put this back on the screen."},{"startTime":2737.433,"endTime":2738.773,"body":"So , if you have this wheel."},{"startTime":2739.073,"endTime":2740.993,"body":"you have a lot of people that"},{"startTime":2739.073,"endTime":2740.993,"body":"are really good at product"},{"startTime":2740.993,"endTime":2744.143,"body":"execution and customer"},{"startTime":2740.993,"endTime":2744.143,"body":"insight, but they're not good"},{"startTime":2744.143,"endTime":2745.133,"body":"at influence or whatever."},{"startTime":2745.133,"endTime":2747.473,"body":"Like, well, maybe the next"},{"startTime":2745.133,"endTime":2747.473,"body":"product manager you hire, then"},{"startTime":2747.473,"endTime":2750.263,"body":"you'd be good at influence"},{"startTime":2747.473,"endTime":2750.263,"body":"and customer insight."},{"startTime":2750.263,"endTime":2750.323,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2750.443,"endTime":2752.213,"body":"Or whatever, you know,"},{"startTime":2750.443,"endTime":2752.213,"body":"and then you can teach"},{"startTime":2752.213,"endTime":2753.413,"body":"'em the other ones, right."},{"startTime":2753.418,"endTime":2756.953,"body":"Like you, you're looking for a"},{"startTime":2753.418,"endTime":2756.953,"body":"balance between the whole team."},{"startTime":2756.983,"endTime":2757.163,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2757.163,"endTime":2758.693,"body":"And you, it's gotta"},{"startTime":2757.163,"endTime":2758.693,"body":"be realistic, right?"},{"startTime":2758.693,"endTime":2760.733,"body":"You're not gonna find"},{"startTime":2758.693,"endTime":2760.733,"body":"a unicorn that has"},{"startTime":2761.063,"endTime":2762.233,"body":"multitude of these Right."},{"startTime":2762.423,"endTime":2763.653,"body":"Different areas right."},{"startTime":2763.653,"endTime":2764.223,"body":"Under their belt."},{"startTime":2764.403,"endTime":2767.223,"body":"Especially in your salary range."},{"startTime":2767.523,"endTime":2768.273,"body":"Very true."},{"startTime":2768.453,"endTime":2768.903,"body":"Well said."},{"startTime":2768.953,"endTime":2769.463,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2769.553,"endTime":2771.323,"body":"So this, I mean this"},{"startTime":2769.553,"endTime":2771.323,"body":"is an interesting, it's"},{"startTime":2771.323,"endTime":2772.463,"body":"interesting graphic."},{"startTime":2772.683,"endTime":2773.793,"body":"There's a lot in here."},{"startTime":2773.823,"endTime":2775.793,"body":"some of these categories we"},{"startTime":2773.823,"endTime":2775.793,"body":"probably could have spent"},{"startTime":2775.883,"endTime":2778.013,"body":"a little more time kind"},{"startTime":2775.883,"endTime":2778.013,"body":"of needling some of these"},{"startTime":2778.013,"endTime":2778.973,"body":"categories and digging in."},{"startTime":2779.123,"endTime":2782.693,"body":"But again, at a high level, the"},{"startTime":2779.123,"endTime":2782.693,"body":"dimensions make a lot of sense."},{"startTime":2782.993,"endTime":2784.913,"body":"And they're good to talk about"},{"startTime":2782.993,"endTime":2784.913,"body":"and they're good to understand."},{"startTime":2784.913,"endTime":2786.533,"body":"Like, I'm weak at some of these."},{"startTime":2786.533,"endTime":2787.883,"body":"I'm stronger at some"},{"startTime":2786.533,"endTime":2787.883,"body":"of these other ones."},{"startTime":2787.883,"endTime":2790.523,"body":"Like everybody is So it's"},{"startTime":2787.883,"endTime":2790.523,"body":"good to see them, it's good"},{"startTime":2790.523,"endTime":2792.563,"body":"to understand them and, and"},{"startTime":2790.523,"endTime":2792.563,"body":"kind of be on the lookout."},{"startTime":2792.773,"endTime":2794.873,"body":"Yeah, and I think if you're"},{"startTime":2792.773,"endTime":2794.873,"body":"a product manager looking to"},{"startTime":2794.873,"endTime":2797.663,"body":"be a peak product manager,"},{"startTime":2794.873,"endTime":2797.663,"body":"you could look through this."},{"startTime":2797.663,"endTime":2800.063,"body":"If you're already a Peak"},{"startTime":2797.663,"endTime":2800.063,"body":"product manager though, you"},{"startTime":2800.063,"endTime":2802.403,"body":"could look through this and"},{"startTime":2800.063,"endTime":2802.403,"body":"come up with something else and"},{"startTime":2802.403,"endTime":2803.963,"body":"become an Apex product manager"}]}