Promote People Until They Break (And Other Really Bad Startup Advice) | AA265

A startup lecture recommended by Sam Altman calls people "ammunition" and tells you to work 80-hour weeks.

Brian and Om dissect Keith Rabois' (in)famous "How to Operate" talk, exposing the dehumanizing logic behind "barrels and ammunition," the cult of heroic effort, and why grading managers on output-per-head creates a fear-based culture.

What Brian and Om get into:
• Why the "people are irrational" premise is a condescending excuse for bad system design
• The truth behind 80-100 hour work weeks and the duct-tape engine myth
• What "build a company idiots can run" really means for your career
• The "barrels and ammunition" metaphor and its Taylorist roots
• Why "expand responsibilities until they break" destroys psychological safety
• The output-per-head metric and how it incentivizes burning out your team

For product managers, engineers, and anyone who's ever been called a "resource" by someone who read too much Ayn Rand.

#ToxicLeadership #StartupCulture #ManagementAdvice

Keith Rabois, Sam Altman, Y Combinator, Andy Grove, High Output Management, Warren Buffett, Square, PayPal, W. Edwards Deming, The Goal by Eliyahu Goldratt

LINKS
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@arguingagile
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/362QvYORmtZRKAeTAE57v3
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/agile-podcast/id1568557596

INTRO MUSIC
Toronto Is My Beat
By Whitewolf (Source: https://ccmixter.org/files/whitewolf225/60181)
CC BY 4.0 DEED (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/deed.en)

Transcript

0:00

Hey Om... have you[UH] have heard of piece management advice that says that there are two kinds people, ammunition and barrels, as in barrels from gun So you're telling me that .R. Is OK with this in a day and age when we're trying to treat people as individuals like human beings. How that possible I don't know. But lecture 14 in course Sam Altman refers people to to learn about how to run startup also happens be one most unhinged and dangerous hours of measuring advice on Internet. And I thought needed talk about it. Silicon Valley it. Sounds like people are running out of [UH] metaphors. They're running out something welcome back arguing agile. And if this is your first time, welcome. I'm host product manager Brian Orlando and this is my co -host enterprise business agility leader and the wonderful wizard of the business workflow, Mr. Patel. Wow. Elevated once again. So the talk I referenced the opening is lecture 14, how to operate by Keith Rebwa Rebwa Rebwa. All right. So we're talk about this talk that he did. And it's quite long talk, but we're talk about the salient points today. All two them. it's so chock full of bad ideas and even worse worldviews to be honest that that we had to bring it on podcast and put up the operating table and find out what's inside. Absolutely. So that's what we do[UH] here. To be fair, the talk is packed with slick, clean sounding rules maximize output. Find your barrels, push people till they break. Things that you'll hear it, know, from unhinged executives throughout your career. I've heard these many times. Right. You can feel the subjects underneath. but my hope on this podcast today, is that you won't just disagree with bad points that are expressed the talk. You will be able to name them out loud. You'll be more aware them when you hear them repeated other people. Luckily, some these are not repeated because like ammunition barrels thing is pretty explicitly dehumanizing. So I haven't really heard that one my career. But you'll able to spot them fast and kind stand them out or question them before they [UH] kill somebody or worse. All right. Sit down. Buckle up. Keep your powder dry as they used say Yeah. Keep your pants on. Maybe. So one the points lecture expresses I'm paraphrasing that the dream here is to build machine that idiots can run. if that's true, like my first question is what does it say about people your company? That's that's goal. they're all idiots. And what about rest us? Yeah, good question. Yeah, yeah. the first, the first reason talk is for why companies are hard is this people are rational also in that vein is you'll be shocked learn how water wet and oh yeah, the sky is When did that happen? Yeah, you'd be shocked. know you're shocked to learn that. But this is foundation whole talk is built on. So like let's let's play clip. Let's let's learn bit about what this lecturer is talking about. going to the opening reason that companies hard. forging product. now forge a company. And actually, you forging company much more difficult than forging product. Basic reason is people irrational. So you probably all know this. Either parents, your significant other, your brother sister, your teacher, somebody your life is irrational. Though their company basically taking all irrational people, know, put them one building and then living with them 12 hours day least. So it's very challenging. Now there's techniques for coping that and some people get good at and some people don't. But that's where really what operating about. So basically you're doing you build company is you're building engine. And first have a drawing literally whiteboard and you're architecting it. And it looks very conceptually clean and beautiful and pretty. But you start actually translating practice, actually looks more like this. you're holding together with duct tape. And takes lot heroic efforts people to actually hold together. That's why people work 80 hundred hours week. Is that heroic efforts is actually necessary to keep this thing together because you don't actually yet have polished metal in place. So the foundation that this whole talk is built on that is like it starts with kind what he just said, which sounds innocuous. Right? It's building companies. It's like building engine. You take it out you, you know, lay out all your lovely plans and turns out looking like crap and all dirty and held together with duct tape spoken by someone who's never built an engine before. Yeah, especially with bunch idiots OK, so also, also, can tell 16 seconds and can you tell his contempt for it might be just a little contempt when he's comparing like a 950 CCI engine with carburetor to a V12 to V12 But the basic reason is people are irrational. That was, that's the corner stone says. It's fact that he states in his opinion to start with. So people irrational. So so people irrational So yeah [UM] that brings steelman. Listen, people rational. You've got to manage around them. what if people in the history mankind not be irrational? As far as I know, think just learned that always being 11 years ago, just learned that. Right? People, are irrational [UM] got manage around them, isn't that? Isn't that diminutive? What's, what's word for it where you're there's good word. It's not kind my brain right now. It's a rather condescending view. And yeah, that was word condescending is little boy. People are irrational. So can you do with them? That's load them up barrels and shoot them across the ocean. guess you put them incendiary devices. think that's what. Anyway, the, the economy behavior here, the academic would say, humans are not rational actors. Like they're not, they're not, they're not robot. don't always activate on logic. There's emotion there could be having bad days. OK, so saying? you're right. This very like academic Hedy argument that someone can make right here, know, which is like garbage me. Like I, I think I'm with practitioner here man, teams people messy. Just deal with it. Okay, plan for it. Deal with it. That there's mess. Nothing's go according plan. everyone knows that, you know. And also again, this category strictly water wet. So you know, hey, have some, do we have some better ideas like rather than treating people like [UH] they're an obstacle that needs be overcome or quote handled. Why don't just treat them like people? Maybe try that. Yeah, maybe give them some free reign to figure things out by themselves and try and fix environment they work in. about that for change? know, for having a cynic point as as an against point like what he just told me. was like most cynical thing. was was people are like putting company that also the who puts company together by building like dirty beat up engine. Like you put company together by like using your two feet and walking somewhere then you like build it into bicycle, maybe get extra person. That's how every company I've ever seen been built guess maybe Silicon Valley companies are different when you get like three bazillion dollars from venture firms to just go hire 80 people when know have product. Right? that's successful company, especially they can raise round two and three was was because that model doesn't exist anymore. Exactly. Free capital gone. That error gone So like and also just from my time being on teams, mean I'm just not comparing myself here but like the behavior makes sense when you actually look the constraints the person is under. You know, somebody being stressed time makes lot sense if you're the developer that's always at 2 a .m. because the system you're maintaining garbage traditional legacy. know, have time fix of course, stressed. Yeah But his answer is, know, just load up into barrel and fire away. I like it. I like it[UH] listen, he's completely turned around. would load a barrel fire away stop labeling behavior irrational. Start hunting the incentive that made it rational. If I'm give advice all, if if I have to take this seriously in any way, shape or form, which I'm not convinced do. look at incentives here. That's, that's what I'm saying. So what you think? know, let us know in comments. what is last time that somebody called yours or a teammate's choices irrational and then found out that somebody, whether somebody else or you, found out that actually was the smartest option that had available to you. that'd interesting story. It would be. Yeah, I'd be willing bet that just [UH] just before they said irrational is when they start listening. Yes, yes since we're labeling people today, that's we're doing podcast once your resources are irrational, lots labels being applied. I like it. This is the opposite what we normally do. That's right. That's right. It's kind like it's kind interesting being on the other side of the of the tracks here. That means that one person has to hold the place together with sheer determination and willpower. And that means we're holding out for hero. Cue the music. There's no music. can't afford music YouTube. right. So so you decide that decide that only heroes can save you. You're going start celebrating those hours that heroes burn. That's you're going do because you're hero. We're hero culture. Now we celebrate heroes. OK, so the line thinking says people work 80 or 100 hour work weeks because it's heroic effort necessary to hold company together. Yeah, so it may start as a heroic effort, but doing this consistently soon normalizes that. So now to be heroic, you got go 120 hours because it's normal do 80 to 100. That's right. lay lazy. doing? Only working. Yeah Right. What are doing getting here at at 805 a .m. The real winners get here at 7 .m. and then step to like we're just working 24 hours. That's right It's so sad. But if you think about you've been working, you know, for few years, could probably think about companies that have this kind culture And can think about how these people felt. I mean, chances are don't work there anymore because they got washed out, burned out, whatever. that is, that is, I mean, that is the cycle I remember that cycle from way early my career. And[UH] I would say that corporate America has kind like been not really like self -punish but the they kind destroyed their own market because the market was you get people in young, you burn out. More people are coming out college than there are workforce anyway. So there's there's like glutton new constant supply. Young people get them in. don't know better. They're just happy have job. Burn them like this. You know, mean, they age out. You get new younger people in the cycle, know, keeps going. That used be the treadmill. They used be tech treadmill. And then like offshoring came in, cloud came in a whole bunch other stuff came in. You know know what else came in is the Gen Z that just said look, there's more life than this. Yeah, we're not doing this. Well, well, good [UM] more please. Yeah, let's see like this one[UH] have a citation here. me screen. And takes lot heroic effort to practice. actually, looks more like this you're holding together with duct tape. And takes lot heroic efforts people to actually hold together. That's why people work 80 100 hours week. Is that heroic efforts actually necessary to keep this thing together because you don't actually yet have polished metal in place But yeah, so you hear words there. know, you got, you actually need those heroic people [UM] The heroic effort is actually necessary keep thing together. The subtext there that I clearly that clearly comes through for me at stage my career that I'm at is yeah, you need that stuff because you can't bothered to design system that actually works or you just don't know to build them. Maybe you're 22 year old, you know, person that someone threw lot money at to go build company. You're not to, you're not know anything about systems thinking and no. And that's OK. You truly won't know what you don't know. Exactly. Yeah. But you're getting paid lot. So you know what. So you don't need to ask. Yeah So didn't know where you're go that. just picked direction. was not right one but was funny. It was funny I got couple takes in the steel man of this one [UM] I'm going to throw one at you and see what think about How about the heroic hours separate the winners from losers on the winners from the wannabe, the the people really hungry. Yeah, mean, that's culture that you're, you're putting in place. So people strive to excel by killing themselves essentially. Oh, can I try one? Can I try one [UM] go [UH] heroic hour separate the people with families from the people that are single. How about that one? Is that one? Yeah [UH] that still cynical? know. No, no, don't think it's cynical. mean, is it illegal? don't know. illegal. It's a yes, think might be little illegal [UH] I'm sure you're killing people without using actual weapons. Although this case, you might using [UM] barrels and cannons or something softly. Yeah The early stage lacks polished metal yet. I don't even know that means. I've got be honest. he's referring to the polish V12. mean you don't get there you're starting from scratch. Right? You've got to go through the stages. And he seems to want skip that from, you know, describing that dusty old banger to Polish metals. You don't get there in hurry like that. I'm not, I will just, I will just flatly tell you early podcast, I'm not convinced knows how to build company. he might have just shown up and throw in some money at the investment of the company and said I'm going to yell people and tell do. they're like, well, then that's Timmy. And know, he's, he's, he's got lot money invested this thing. So like it has reason though that you know, that is case because he's got, you know, he's got cash invested this thing, then he's going ask people to keep jumping So yeah, do 80 hours and then work the other 80 hours. know, other, the other pushback here and this is the good one. I think the one actually might talk about is some these crunches happen when you're small company and they come waves. You just got to kind through them. That's just the culture small company. And you know, not every week going working 80 hours, but sometimes will. that's just a, know, crunch happens. Just deal with it and it's normal I can go along with that if it's small company and you're doing this sporadically but not regularly. I can go along with that. That's fine. These things happen. do have to tighten our belt once while but that's key. Once while. And you're not rewarding that behavior that if you consistently do this, you are the go getters. Right? OK Hold that thought because [UH] [UH] I want to take all the nuance out this discussion. know, like it. So this what feel like every day, you're probably right track. And that doesn't sound appetizing, probably shouldn't start company. Truthfully. All right. that, So with the, so if this doesn't sound questions. appetizing, probably shouldn't start company. says do you know how to tell you're doing the job if you're up 3 .m. every night talking into a tape recorder and writing notes on scraps of paper? Have a knot in your stomach and rash on your skin and losing sleep and losing touch with your wife and kids and have no appetite or sense of humor and feel that everything might turn out wrong. Then you're probably doing job. That's what says. So you've got be a big bowl of anxiousness and unease. And your, your wife has a quote personal trainer. and your dog left with her and your kids [UH] hate you and you're living country song. That's what I'm saying that's what need for six. That's a formula for success this guy didn't have wife. This is going say if this is what he's preaching at people that might potentially start company one day or I know, class of business school graduates or undergrads whatever might be I worry. I do. This is, mean, listen, this is on the list .that Sam Jeopardy Altman thinks people should watch the to have startup. This is a starter advice [UH] from the silicon startup class that Sam Altman dot com. It's on here. Course number 14. course, lecture 14. He thinks you should see this. This is the stuff there. It's on Y .C. Root access. It's got[UH] which has got 362000 subscribers, couple more than do. And then this video which has been up since November 2014 has just short of 300000 views as we are watching it. and it's 46 minutes long. this video and the advice in here has been seen by many people and we don't know. mean there's hundred comments only read couple them. Only few them are calling this guy out for being ridiculous. But you know, other ones like this guy so much better than the other speakers. I don't really want to, I have to watch at point seven five speed. It's too useful. So many, so many things I can't skip. mean, you know how many these bots? I know. But also how many these actually started companies. We don't know. Right I kind agree with Sam Altman that this is a must watch video but not necessarily the same reason. OK, we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there. So you probably shouldn't start company. don't know, like [UH] introduce viewers to section that we did many, times of the fear hook of hey, you're not really anxious all time and got a wife and kids aren't happy home, like you probably shouldn't start company. This one trick by my book, six thousand million dollars whatever. Right listen, don't try make me afraid. Like I'll start company if want to. That's right. How about that? about how about you just best faith advice possible and whatever do, starting my company is whatever do. How about that? Yeah. How about developing genuine empathy your customer and coming up with something that they might actually need? mean, or for people any kind. But you know let's not hold our breath because we'll all be dead. so like he says no polished metal. then praises symptom of, you know, everything's held together by duct tape all that stuff. Like he's praising the symptoms without looking at oh, why is machine getting built like that? Exactly why not? Why not building maintaining nice polished bicycle? Why not? know, right? Why? Why is like that? the principles here like the heroics being needed to me are evidence of a broken system. That's not proof that there are admirable people doing heroic, you know efforts or whatever, spending heroic efforts whatever. That sounds me like system is broken. And we've talked about this on other broadcasts before. People don't really, people who start these sorts companies and be so-called successful leaders don't really care about system. Sure, sure. OK, well you know that's cool. guess like what's what's my better ideas So if I'm have take away from this section, I'm say stop admiring the 80 hour work week and start asking what is broken that makes it necessary to work many hours. OK, listen, but also I've I've got history of interacting with P.E. like see. Normally they prescribe antibiotics that, but for some reason, it won't go away. But this, this the private equity playbooks is they, they, you know, strapping down with debt. They, you know, freeze hiring As people leave, they don't replace them. They make, know do more with less. Right But degree that's sort this well. know, you want people be heroes and step up and but then they, you know, they're burn themselves out. And we'll talk about that later whole category. Yeah. know, but yeah, know, it's what, what is broken in the system that makes necessary to working all these hours. Yeah. No amount of on paper million dollar options make it worthwhile you're human being anyway. the question for you is [UH] what most heroic thing that you've seen someone do at your work that should have just been a process fix or you know hiring fix because know policies hiring whatnot are just another piece system and the process system. Let us know the comments and then us know if the process ever did get fixed stayed like that. so can't just all hold hands and sing, we heroes or we sing heroes by David Bowie. can't that, I mean listen, we can't because would strike us. But I think because we all want machine be simple, as simple as needs be so nobody has think about piloting it. I think that's we really want, which is word word what this talk will recommend next. So here is destination that whole lecture is driving towards one of destinations. Anyway, goal, he says, barring a Warren Buffett line, by way, we're listen to play right now. says he wants build company that idiots can run because eventually they will. And going to, we're listen him now. worry about every hour, every minute. And know, we used joke about eBay, that Martians took over eBay, it would take like six months world notice. That's eventually what you get to. Or as Warren Buffett says, know, build company that idiots run because eventually they will. So this is what want basically performance machine that idiots can run. Now leader, what build company that is can run because eventually they will, which is very funny. ha. Also like, hey man, your own quips. Like it's some bar and Warren Buffett's quips. know, go make your own. So the sinecure the sinecure is obviously want to make people interchangeable so that be replaced. You can't build whole company around one person and one person leaves. then what? As long have bunch idiots there, nobody cares. Brian people who care should be basically just told to stay their lane. Yeah, just be morons. And that is the same people saying this are also people saying oh, not me though. No, nothing's Not the CEO. can't. That's right. I am whole company. can't live without me. That's right. That's the, that's the real, the true cynic behind this is the backsided like I'm saying this. These rules for everyone else but not me I'm special. Yeah, Hey, know, the practitioner here I think has most useful advice that says look, we're just trying to document what the processes are the business and what what people in their jobs and stuff like that. it's, know, we document enough where we like whole process doesn't have live heads. doesn't be different from person person that know picks up the picks thing whatever the thing is work. And that's fine. That's completely understand that. I don't really have pushback against that one, the Warren Buffett quote from this one like it can't in actuality. I didn't dig too deep it because I'm trying to get this. There's lot of content in here cover. But the authority he's borrowing from Warren Buffett, he doesn't actually outline why. He doesn't tell me about how to do what he's saying, how to make people interchangeable. So can pull one person out then plug another person in. Like what is that system that you're building to make people interchangeable? So the weight that he sets up like make people interchangeable, know, make it so easy that you know, make the system so easy because like I would agree them on that one. That's great point. It's easy to say than do. It's easy to say it. But again, there's no action here. Right. Yeah. He doesn't recommend any action is fairly short on by his book. that the maybe maybe to his next talk? Yeah, yeah. So if you're trying to set system that idiots can run. Right. Meaning that like it survives whoever put in that seat you can do that. You don't need to. You don't need to treat people like you know machines whatever to do that again. This binary choice here. This false. It's not true there's Deming and also there's a principle here like underhood that's starting to brush lot later podcast. There'll be a lot of Deming that brushes against what he's saying. But the first one here point out is that know people give you their best work when you actually care about them and they're doing things that they enjoy doing because there's like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation thing that seems be like going over. yeah, yeah. There's none that here this talk. A little that I saw it I agree that. that again he didn't bring up. you, if you design a system nobody gets any say in, like then you're removing critical thinking in system. Right? Because nobody can, nobody even has say. This is like every team that can't. Oh, we have issue with any executive can come in and tell them, know, set date and have have thing by that date. like why even bother bringing that up retro that point haven't, know, hey stop. It's like other podcast talk about it. We, we would bubble something up retro and management would say like stop complaining about this thing. You keep bringing this thing up in different ways. Stop it. You guys are just complainers. that point know. Yeah. Yeah. mean, guess really shouldn't be bringing up again because that's system. Nobody wants you to change system. They don't want you to change system. That's right. You know, in a company like that, you design a system like that, the real danger is, know, if that one person really even has clue about anything once he or she goes, what happens? You evolve into basically chaos. Yeah. So my takeaway is here. Stop optimizing for anyone can do this and start optimizing for the person doing it really cares about it. So how can support that person that that really cares about it? And that that's really it. mean, that's, know, that's the takeaway. It's great takeaway. I thought so. So, yeah you know, hey, at your company that you never want idiot think? What is a job proof because the judgment is the job. Oh, I'll raise hand. Product management. look, even they, even the security card front desk. mean, the judgment is job. going fire that person because they demand the CEO to have their badge visible. Everyone knows that's CEO, but it's his job, the guard's job to make sure that all badges are visible. What going do? Right yeah, know would do. So if your people are just interchangeable parts, if we're going along with this thinking, then we probably believe that we need way to measure those interchangeable parts because need know when we need replace part. Right? That's, that's I'm going to stick this dehumanizing thinking for minute and to see where it goes, goes the dump. Sorry So to do that, we're going to jump our DeLorentome and we're up to hit 88 miles hour go back 1960s and say hi to our friend and say hi to all of our friends from the 60s and grab a cigarette because that's do the 60s. It's fine. doesn't cost as long as it's without filter. Completely fine. Yeah, that's right. how we measure this machine? He pulls from Andy Groves 1983 book and leans on a clean rule. Your job is to maximize output and you measure people on output, not input. So this what want basically a performance machine that idiots can run. Now leader, what is your real job? What's your role? Strictly speaking, there's only one book ever written that actually explains to do this. It's little old. It's written 1982 by Andy Grove. It's quite famous quite successful. And his definition of what your job is is to maximize the output organization. Your organization you're responsible for CEOs everything a VP would be part organization and organizations around you. So you're VP, actually responsible for the performance the product team to or marketing team because have influence there. So this is how you measure people. And you to focus on the output, not input the old adage about measuring, not measuring motion and confusing that progress. You're measuring only progress. And this sound like fancy glamorous thing do Maybe people get excited about managing whole large organization being responsible for the output. But practice, you're going learn today hopefully is that it's more about things like ordering smoothies, teaching your receptionist how to answer phone properly and serving 10 hour task rabbit for your employees. in 1982, guess that doesn't make it better. makes worse. But I'll check that source. whatever I output management Andy Grove book. It might been 82. Who knows? We'll go find it right now. It the early eighties. It says originally published 1983. Okay. All right. 83 is wrote No, no. He said 82 but our source said 83 and Google says 83. Right. So, OK, think he's wrong [UH] Manage shock it up one more thing he's wrong about. mean, be honest, I it's interesting how he basically simplifies complex leadership like that of which was talking about doing simple things like ordering smoothies for your team when they're still working 9 p.m. know, that's a little too simplistic for me. Why they there 9 .m. first place? Why they not at their, you know, with their families. Right So if this, this was 10 years ago, said right. Ten, 11 years ago. If this had been in the 80s or 90s [UH] maybe even early 90s during the heyday Internet when everybody was required work hard because you're all people millionaires. OK, maybe OK. Right. But, but no, it's not OK. Not OK. It's not OK to say, well, we'll be getting, we're getting smoothies for you. You're here 9 p .m. Away from your families. Get back to work after you smooth I was hoping we wouldn't get into this on this by guess the random and varied incentives that we give to people to keep them hooked on in office because like in office culture culture. the slot machine effect that hooks people's brains on gambling. Yeah [UH] he's discovered this but he doesn't name it. Or to be honest, he probably doesn't understand it of why you do things like this, you know, and other people might listen this package and hopefully they'd listen this package and say, no, Brian, you're wrong. He's just supporting people that are working hard. He's trying to do the best support the people except the real support of people in that in that capacity. Because again, my background is product and engineering. So I know that if got to work 9 .m. and you're still there nine p .m. You are not giving me your best, your best work. Absolutely not. I'd rather you just go home and come back we'll tackle morning. In fact, I would prefer it. And if were running company, fact, demand it. I'd be like, listen, this, your brain good me. No, you're good me. family's disintegrating home, when you, know, mean everyone's crying fighting. You know good. You need to manage your stuff is what used to say the 2000s. You need manage your personal life so you can come back and put in your best effort. And then, and then would, we would just ignore everything. The world is a more tolerant and more accepting place now. I've been lucky enough work for a company or two where they would say, well, you're still here nine. We don't expect you be here. You know, this is one off. However, we'd like to send some, you know, over some food your family. Yeah, right not here. Some smoothie. Take it back your desk and get to work. Get back to work. only found right right smoothie mix and we'll get more, know, squeeze more out rag. this At first, sounds like wisdom. It's also like the quality thinking, the high output management quality thinking from the 80s. Like it's all this garbage. It's just we've been turning rid of this for while. Yeah, yeah, mean [UH] Like this is the growth of Andy Grove here. Judge people on the numbers that hit. Just the individual people on the individual numbers that they hit. Right. This is the, you know, draw line of my year end performance the bottom 10 percent performance Facebook does this. They're very famous also for being modern modern company does this not just like back day. Right that are not based in anything. Some dude wrote book and said good idea. they're the Andy Grove. Point of measuring the output the org like that, that formula, the outcomes over activity I sort agree with conceptually but the measuring the output of the org. that can improve performance by 30 50 percent. But manager says I can only measure output, what the Enigro estimated they mean is I've stopped looking at whether the system lets you produce anything or know like that the work center I've talked about a previous podcast where one person was the maintenance developer like they're their peers and their tickets their bug fixes that stuff going look completely different. And you're judging people on, you know, how many bugs whatever they what are we talking about? We're playing bunch games code change, every PR that I check in now is be if have to fix color, just put now every, every the color the PR and I just plug that in by itself. Sure. And then and then thethe actual front code change that applies the new color It's another PR. Yeah. So I look like hero. You sure do You may well this point go to, you know, a number lines code written. I might well listen. The LL M can help me with that. That's the one thing LL M can help you with gaming metrics. Oh boy. A metric sets as a target. A metric set metric set target stops being a measurement becomes the target. That's becomes what people strive for just for the sake of the metric. Yeah. Ridiculous. this section makes me aggravated because it's nonsense. The move here is don't measure output Improve the system and improve the overall end end. This is like this is the basics the goal. Like I can't get goals also 80s book, right? The goal is like 80 to three. might actually be even older no, think was written the same might 84, 84, 84. So like little right around time this, like there's lot management consulting kind of like stuff coming out in the in the early 80s all coming out right around same time. And seemingly opposite of each other and of course, like now we think about our media landscape now. you've got channel for these people here and then you've channel that's diametrically opposed. says exact opposite what. Of course they would have this, you know, science stuff. But like if you read goal, it's going tell you well obviously you can measure individual people and say like oh [UM] you're great. You punched out 100 widgets this month and Brian you suck because only punched out 15 widgets. Not taking consideration that Brian only works on the worst widgets with worst material. Like only take rejects from everyone else's pile and save them or whatever. I like the bug fix developer. That's he did. worked on the, he never worked on original code wrote. He only worked the people's code bases and he only worked on bugs. Terrible guy. Yeah, and everyone and never got promoted or anything because again, that's not any metrics were judged. Yeah. So looked like he was just, I know, struggling. Yeah. Yeah. Something. And and that's it. know, and then the goal rat teaches if you're not, know, not looking identifying then move in the bottlenecks I mean, really, you doing? Just promoting the counterculture. Well, speaking counterculture, I get to the point. in this podcast. That is the exciting reason for the whole podcast. So before do that, comment with most gamed metric that you've ever seen team chase or that you've chased the for the world of individual metrics that the world used be but and but like, yes. And but it's saying yes. And that's why just throw that there as a segway. All my segways from now yes. And so name and name metric that you've ever seen your team chase. Yes. And measuring the parts is gentle compared to where we're going next when when you learn what he calls quote the parts. So brace yourself. Oh, we're going to talk about. We're going talk about the line that infuriated me and his genesis of this whole episode. OK, it's his contribution to original thinking. So I'm not going to this is this guy's because remember this is his brainchild. OK, as far tell, nobody else came up this barrels ammunition concept. OK, his original thinking says people are split in your company. People are split into two kinds. OK, barrels, the few people who can ship things end end and everyone else, even the great people are ammunition I have to, have explain because I'm let him explain it. try to do is maximize probability for success in editing team. So I like this idea of barrels ammunition. So most companies, once into hiring mode, Sam pointed should defer that while. But once do, they just hire lot people. And they're like expect and expect that add people, your throughput, your horsepower, your velocity of shipping things is going increase. It turns out doesn't work that way. actually sorry. I had pause it because I saw your face where he's you know, everyone thinks you just add people and throw them the problem and then your velocity gets what I'm going to faster. And I'm just sitting here looking you going [UH] no, actually nobody thinks that nobody thinks that. Like we've all known that for well over 20 years that it's not a up into right chart. It actually flattens out pretty quickly. It actually goes down little bit first because you know rest team supporting new person coming in. Well this been tangent of actual experts talking about things that they know about as opposed Usually when hire more engineers, actually don't get that much more done. actually sometimes get less done. You hire more designers. definitely don't get more done. get less done per day We're talking about why But so the reason why is that most people, most great people even are actually ammunition. But you need your company are barrels and can only shoot through number of unique barrels you have. So that's how the velocity of your company improves by adding barrels and then you stock them with ammunition and then can do lot. So from one barrel company, which is mostly how you start to two barrel company, so you get twice many things done day week quarter to three barrels, great. to four barrels, awesome barrels incredibly difficult to find. But when have them like give them lots equity, promote them, take them dinner every week because they're virtually irreplaceable because they're also very culturally specific. So barrel one company may not be barrel at another company because one ways the definition barrel they can take idea from conception all way through shipping and bring people with them. And that's very culturally specific opportunity specific skill set rather. So two questions probably current use. How you figure out who's barrel and who's not? One is you start actually very small set responsibilities. be fairly trivial. It can be something like I want to reward engineers are in my office nine o'clock night every night with nice cold fresh smoothie. can't listen. guy talk about smoothies again. you know, hey, listen, you stock them, you shoot through the, the barrels [UH] and then oh, you shoot through the barrels and they do important things. And then in your velocities, just how many barrels you've got. it's tidy little ephemism, isn't For something. don't know. I have idea means. I have no idea means either. But you know, he also said start with one barrel and maybe work up to scaling a company. he saying that he's not barrel? Is like maybe start with one barrel? Yeah, maybe. Yeah, guess either advisor. Right. So you know, investor maybe. like this is the old drivers and individual contributors or managers and individual contributors the tailorism where you had the foreman and workers like this. This is just repackaged like stuff from 1914. That's not mean the other thing could repackage what he's saying is like you need find natural leaders and then they can take things end end and bring people along that want to step up and follow a natural leader. I go on that one. Sure, that's fine. mean, that's just, know, normal sort of leadership you know, just normal leadership essentially. Right. Making sure that you're promoting the culture of people that want get ahead and allowing them do so by fixing their environment. All that. But say most people are not barrels, right most people not. He's saying he's also saying just take care the barrels. And then think stop just short of when he said what real success is to become barrel. And that is to buy smoothies for your tea. Yeah. I think knows. But also, I don't know how many people would know. How you take person and develop them as a leader so they can rise to the level of effort of the other leaders that you have your company. And first all, requires that you invest. Yeah. Other than superficial, given the smoothies and pizzas whatever, you actually invest in the growth sponsorship opportunities of that person. And that's dead gone. That's dead. That's not nowhere corporate America And and other one is I know. actually care about people. And that's, I don't happening right now. But the few people matter. These are on our steelman points of few people actually matter company. Only only couple heroes are are you know keeping whole company moving and rest are just supply ammunition. Let's just say they're dispensable. Yes, ammunition is dispensable. right. this is the, is Taylorist take. The Taylor didn't like workers. looked down on where he was. did. There was educated class. He looked down on the that most people working factories the Taylorism era were uneducated. They, you know, they, they didn't even they didn't have shoes. know, lot time there's story the Taylor podcast that we tell about that. Anyway go look at our podcast on Taylor as I'm arguing. While you're doing that, would advise people to get yourself a large pot of coffee. That's right It's deep podcast. It's very meaningful. Oh, it's arguing agile 50 two. It's actually our [UH] it's actually agile podcast 50 to the principles and scientific scientific management tailorism. It is Two hours 22 minutes. A little investment time you learn all about tailorism. But the condescension towards the worker is really ringing through in this passage, which is the tailor is school thought. Sure. mean, it's ringing through. So like it's this is a school thought. That's the ideology behind what's what's here. know I mean the practitioners point here is like some people just make things happen. I put ship but some people admit they will things into existence. And I would say that's what you're what you're looking at is not like it's not like because they're better people. It's because they're more natural leaders than other people. So you want that and think that's good valuable. Develop that. Other companies have plenty that. You choice make here, right? You know, choice make instill culture where you do develop leaders for the next generation, generation after. Or you say, know, we are are and everybody else is you know, dispensable have bullets. Yeah, yeah so my take away pretty quick. Stop dehumanizing people. Grow up man and sorting them into barrels bullets and[UH] start asking what's stopping more people from driving at my company the actual if you actually ask that earnestly, you might be surprised what people tell you. And then you know you need work on whatever people tell you. you're going ask yourself that question, be ready be surprised you know, you not like what you see the mirror. Oh, you also might not like what hear because answer might be pointing back at yourself. That's my point. Yeah, yeah. You won't like what see mirror, right? So you'll be ready change that hopefully. think learned this category is a don't don't ask uncomfortable questions and [UH] you'll never have to deal with yourself. I'm super annoyed at this category. Let me know in the comments you're also super annoyed. And once you've gotten that chest comments below, you'll get a like up like from me Next thing is need figure out how many straws each camel can carry till they snap. Sorry, we're snapping camels podcast. snow camels hurt in making of this book. That's right. Not not very many is what I'm saying. And so people are those camels. That's that's what I'm going present you in the next soundbite listen to. sounds flippant, but it is the real practice that he recommends for every single person that works you. Ooh. So you expand somebody's responsibilities? Sorry, to, you want to get you what you to cash in, sell out, bro down or something. for the force know. can't remember the four steps would have been better plan than what he has better plan than he's going outline us here in a second. know, people like camels keep loading stuff on their backs until they slap 1718. Let's, let's do this. we had intern star and think second day I was explaining this problem and he said, I'll do it. And I like looking him like there's no way I've seen my office manager fail. My assistant fail. All are actually pretty good This isn't happen. And then lo behold that night they show up on time Cold delivered right place. And my first instinct was great. Not not nothing about smoothies, but OK, now I can actually them something more important consequential complicated do. And that's actually want do with every single employee every single day is expand the scope responsibilities until breaks. And will break everybody like I couldn't run world like everybody has like some level complexity they can handle. And what do is keep expanding until you see where breaks. that's role they should stay in that level sophistication. But some people will surprise you. There will be people who don't expect without with different backgrounds, without lot experience that just can handle enormously complicated tasks. And so keep testing that pushing envelope. The other signal look for once you've hired someone is with an open office. Just watch goes up other people's desks, particularly people that they don't report to. If people start going your desk, someone individual employees desk and they don't report them. It's sign they believe that person can help them. if you see wet spot floor, could be, know, you leak. Just to any other inane advice that you need give you.[UH] that the fear factory method he just says like get your explicit explicit daily goal is to exploit people something just say and then make their failure visible by just keep piling stuff and pilings up piling stuff on. And then once they fail then that's the end their career progression that you're coming. Yeah, that's not how you're going maintain you know, good people your company. You're going lose some, some talent doing it this way. reputation that get. don't know. Oh, he's big Silicon Valley investor. mean how dare you? You'll just get more camels. get it. But at the same time, this is way to run a business I mean it's way run anything to be honest. I agree. know, you know, then some measurement things that he's talking about, you see people going up someone's desk, it's an indication that they are getting help or whatever is. No, maybe they're just going these people because they want talk about the football pool they're in. Yeah, maybe because it's just human thing do. Stretch goals they build people carefully. Stretch goals. Okay. Yeah. Keep stretching. Keep stretching them until they break like elastic band. Right After they break, they're no use you. Just like that elastic band. got stretch people with sometimes [UH] each limb at a time with horses. think that's. Yeah. Until it breaks makes failure. What your goal? that's right. Right. So I manager, my goal is failure. And OK, mean, guess if this recipe for how to engineer a fear based management culture, that makes sense. I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest doing this way You want to stretch people like again. This part career over where like hiring people. And I had whole team that I managed that hired and stuff like that. I don't do that anymore. But when you're putting somebody their first project. For example, ideally put them on project with someone who has successful track record of running projects. You put, you couple them with that person. and over time the person will hand off more more responsibility them until they're running whole project and they're supported by your other employee and then eventually take employee away and then they're working[UH] safety net. That's the way that you have new people take over processes and responsibilities whatever else with a safety net. That's how you stretch people you don't keep stacking more work on them as people quit until they break and have to, you know go therapy FMLA time off or whatever. You know, because got therapy. Yeah [UH] Ridiculous. This a great way lose people what I'll say. You know, because people will leave. They'll see this behavior and they'll not part it. Oh boy. It's like take away. Stop loading people, people until they break you psycho and then start helping people stretch where failing is safe. And also like what we talked about earlier, like are you their sponsor? you looking for new opportunities to help them start? are doing here? Are just throwing stuff at them hey, you're doing this reads the most out them. Basically, I get squeezing most juice. But like what do you go run juicer factory like dude? What are doing so know, anyway, I'll leave up the audience. I'll leave up you in the audience tell us you know, what, what's difference between stretch where you can grow and a stretch that you know crosses line basically. Would you work for company that basically [UH] asked do acrobatics without safety net? That's you're asking me. mean, or you know your next three coworkers jobs because we gave you this AI tool. We pay, know. Right. Whatever month for it which they don't even more. Now they don't even anymore because now know they're paying API. Now they're really suffering because they're paying API prices. Yikes. So once we're all stretching breaking points [UM] that's what I'm trying say. Now it's time to grade everyone because we need wrap this podcast the single worst idea in whole talk. And I say this one just you. OK, nice. So this is the crescendo. This is his magnum opus. This is his final opus. Mr. Mr. Terrible's opus. And you only remember one thing from this episode, for you to make it this thing stop managers from quote empire building. He proposes a formula and I'm going to, I'm let him walk you through formula [UM] Oh, natural tendency is increase your headcount your team, like sort an empire building tendency. oh, so manage 20 people Sam only manages 10 and manage three. So I'm more important than Sam. You're more important you. One way to do that is you put an act here number people that the output sorry specify how how many things they've done successfully then divide by the number people their team and tell them that this is grade their performance review. Shockingly, this why doesn't start increasing on that team It's amazing how this works be really explicit about it. yeah, there go output overhead count. sounds like a clever antibloat hack but it's a machine for getting managers to start their own teams because like if can accomplish things and keep that output number, you know, high possible with a minimal hit count. Yeah. Why wouldn't you Sure. That's you're measured. That's you're incentive a manager what he's saying. So you're squeezing the denominator, right? You're trying to keep the output constant. this is how people are graded. My question is not even going to ask you they're happy. Is it sustainable to any degree? don't think [UH] happy or sustainable come into this because remember this is the era free money. Oh, that's right. They're just simple. So again, they're simply ammunition. Again, they're ammunition. There's a million bajillion people that work Silicon Valley and there's next person line, you know, and [UH] grade managers on output per head is his. That's his arguing point. His arguing point is exactly what have the cynic, the cynical side here And then with little mix of what is in the academic part deal man is, hey, we're just discouraging empire building by ratioing. That's all we're doing. The same as like [UH] anybody in government will tell you like way that you're counted successful government lobby, get more headcount and then your office grows bigger and then you're there because you have bigger office. You are therefore more successful. doesn't actually have to do anything with accomplishing anything for anyone or making anyone happy or those are not any metrics. So there's anything this category, I'm learning is like he doesn't know how to actually judge manager is basically. has no idea. He's ratioing. Yeah. Yeah. the only pushback like how good here that I would even engage with is was 10 20 his time. now it's even shrinking. And there's even talk about like product managers would like that share engineers like point five product managers to a sorry, point five engineers to a product manager. because really only need engineer you run into code problems whatever and then they're not there permanently. that's new thing in Silicon Valley. mean, it's like it's new thing. But it's I know. It's not really proven whatever, you know But small team ship and bloated teams slow you down. That's only one would engage with from from a practitioner here because that true. Small teamship, you know, there's ideal team size. We all know that. But that's not what he's saying here no, he's not saying that all he's basically just simply saying, know, keep as few as few managers as you can. Right. And keep your output constant. Yeah. And and or grow it even. Yeah. Right. The other will keep your keep your your output number. Yeah. Keep your output number constant is basically what he's lobbying for because long it stays same, as doesn't diminish in size, that that chart doesn't dip. You know, mean then you're the thumbs up from management doing great job, kid. Right And then he's go back to what said before, which is, know, load more straws the camels back. So for you manager who has those people that said less than 20, he's probably charge you with, you know, producing more without increasing the denominator. Yeah mean this is typical 1950s management by numbers ranking kind stuff. Exactly. It's drawn on two by two or has little formula whatever. But like nothing here is new or original or I mean well even well thought out really. mean is it's just it's bad metric. It's bad metric. Anyway I would say just like go with Deming this one. Follow Deming this one and ignore this guy. Like stop grading people ratio or any other nonsense like this. Start fixing the incentives that make the bloke feel safe first place don't grade people you know, don't draw line whatever and you know, measure people and not look the system. It's all kinds of, all kinds all kinds bad stuff happening in this category. There's so many bad things happening this one category that it's almost laughable. And he's standing front of the Stanford graduate or Stanford think they're, think they're MBAs could be wrong about that and teaching them this. That's scary. That scary any class of that matter. Really? Yeah. So let us know comments. ever seen a manager game a quote lean team by quietly burning people that had or not replacing people as people quit. like that, mean again, I can talk you all day about this topic from my time with[UH] run firms. But you know, like hear other people. I'd like to pull together a counseling session a group, a group therapy session, seance or seance. Yes. For those us that didn't make it So here is the through line after seven segments. OK every clean sounding rule in the talk maximize output find your barrels stretch till they stretch people till they break all that nonsense. It all same thing. blames the person for something caused by the system. And and that's, that's one takeaway that want people to, to walk away from this podcast. Remember, yeah, absolutely. The other one can offer is [UH] always follow camel desert because they know they're going. Always tie up camel. That's right that's what I've also learned from working on engines. Oh, speaking of that man, electric car, have to worry about his dusty engine or the V 12. Oh, So do have any other favorite bad advice you'd like throw out? We're just heaping bad advice the like type your cam. don't type camel free range camels. Yeah, free range camels. That's right. Well like if we've helped learn about camels let know comments. 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