Your Mentor Can't Get You Promoted (And Never Could) | AA267

The best mentor you've ever had can't get you promoted. 

Not won't - can't.

Product Manager Brian and Business Agility Coach Om draw a hard line between mentors and sponsors, showing why advice never reaches the room where promotions actually happen. 

Listen or watch to learn how to audit your current sponsor for belief, power, and breadth - the exact questions that separate advocates from people who just talk; and how to trace someone via their alumni before you bet two years of your career on them.

Batteries are not included; but what is included, is:
• How mentors help you prepare for the room but sponsors get you in
• The three quiet ways a so-called sponsor fails you without you knowing
• How flat orgs push advocacy underground and make it less fair
• The 'alumni tracing' method for verifying a sponsor's record
• Why one strong sponsor might be a single point of failure
• The exact script to use when asking someone for sponsorship

For product managers, developers, and tech professionals tired of watching great work stay invisible.

#CareerAdvice #Sponsorship

LINKS
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@arguingagile
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/362QvYORmtZRKAeTAE57v3
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/agile-podcast/id1568557596

INTRO MUSIC
Toronto Is My Beat
By Whitewolf (Source: https://ccmixter.org/files/whitewolf225/60181)
CC BY 4.0 DEED (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/deed.en)

Transcript

0:00

the best mentor you've ever had. Can't get promoted. Not won't. can't. So mentors help you build the skills you need sponsors make sure that people actually see those skills. Mentor helps you prepare for room whereas sponsor can get you into the room. There's going be all kinds Hamilton jokes in this podcast I'm We love mentors just stop waiting on them to help you with your promotion I to say up front here we're not saying you don't need me. You said keep them. But in addition. Yeah. If you get ahead, you need sponsors. That's right. and you, and stay ahead, you can was trying segue into. I was trying to segue into Welcome back Arguing Agile. if this your first time and want to stay ahead, I'm your host product manager Brian Orlando. This is my co -host enterprise business agility leader and the duke of The Daily Standup Mr. Om Patel. So today I would like talk about mentors versus sponsors. It's really be sponsors more than talking about mentors. But we're make the category one will be the distinction. Right? So that's we're going talk about it. And what see as the biggest differentiator between the two is that mentors cannot promote you. mean, they probably could, but then they'd be stepping outside bounds like this, the sage mentor know, the wise and Obi Kenobi over here. Yeah, yeah, Oh, my thought because not all sponsors can promote you either. Oh, but that's later. Cutting ahead the podcast now so if if that sounds harsh and know some people say, oh Brian, that sounds harsh. Mentors promote you but they do so much. then maybe know knows. Maybe we might be those people here in another segment two. But it's, it's because a lot people who do not understand the differentiation between two have never been the hiring manager sitting room or with the actual people who decide who gets promoted, who gets big bonus, who gets whatever. And they never had lobby in the room where you know the power actually I've been there. I've been hiring manager. I've had whole team that I've had to do this kind lobbying for. So it's touch go podcast is what I'm saying. The best kind So today I to draw line between mentor and sponsor so cleanly that you will not confuse them again So we will show you the three quiet ways that a so -called sponsor may fail you, which is where you where you were kind going with that one so -called sponsor we're help you catch that your sponsor is failing you before you wasted two years in a dead end job that you thought was a really great opportunity. to then questions to ask to help separate someone who advocates from someone who just advises. Yeah, because like said, there's lot sponsors are a little wishy washy is what I'm saying. yeah, so then stick around end because we're doing new thing end where we give you the one sticky to we'll give exact rule them all. The one sticky to put monitor to help you out to remember to be looking these things and the nuggets for this creamy nougat. Yeah, podcast. So there go. So if the decision happens in room that you're not in, here is the quick dirty test. Mentor talks to you. The sponsor talks about you when are not in the room. The advice is cheap and safe and advocacy costs something I would have added a Hamilton joke here ohm if I could have figured out how to talk about room where happens. I think have that that running issue the rest of whole day. I'm keep trying insert it is not going work anywhere in here A sponsor spends their own reputation. That's a, that's kind of what say. they try to look for opportunities for you, push ahead, lift you up. They lift you up where belong. That's saying. It's costing the sponsor some currency. That's right for your benefit by way. But just to quickly touch on line you just had they're advocating you even when you're not room. So might ask, do know that then that happening? Trust me, will know. Keep your eyes ears open. You will hear from other sources that, hey, I see so-and -so spoke very highly of you, right available for project that we have coming up in this one preparing this podcast? I run across this Carla Harris Ted talk from 2018 to super shorts like 13 half minutes something like Just short 14 minutes, believe podcast, but do think it's worth the, you know, 14 minutes, especially we're watch it here you watch it on like one five speed whatever. It's even like 10 solid minutes, know, eight minutes, whatever is it's worth watching. It's good story. tells some good stories there. And what we're going use some examples from that Ted talk in this podcast is sort framing as we talk through these categories. But as know, it wouldn't be a wouldn't be podcast if there weren't a steel man category. You got have that steel man. Hey, just find powerful friends Is that you're telling me? Just got find powerful friends. yes that's pretty much it. But the how part is not so straightforward. Right So you know, not everybody wants to be that person who who wants to vouch for someone else. Yeah, yeah. sponsors ponsors spend capital. Mentors spend time that's a that's an interesting one to be a steelman. That's the academic is saying like that's what the sponsors do. They spend capital I'm not sure that is a is that a is that pushback. I'm not even sure that is pushback. think so think this academic point is really more from a definitional point of view. Right. And so are we saying then a cynic might say not, not the cynic on the on the screen, but anyways, sponsors don't spend time. They do. They probably spend more time could. That's then it's visible you. Right So might not appreciate as much. But yeah, I understand the academic. It's just definition, right? Sponsors spend capital to spend time. And the, the practitioner one here, this which I think a great one because this is true at different times your careers and in different amounts in those times careers is the practitioner will say, oh, I need both. I need sponsor who's constantly looking for opportunities me. And I need mentor, someone to the, know, ask hard questions. Who's not going to, you know, who's not going to just tell me what hear. Not AI. That's what I'm saying. need not AI mentor who's just to say you're absolutely right, Brian.[UH] now you've mentioned it, I'm to say here, yeah, I cannot be your sponsor guy. Oh, thought say you're absolutely right, Brian. was flip table. That was to problem. Oh goodness. So you mentioned something about how to how to ask for sponsorship kind of offcomment. But it got me thinking because she does the Carla Harris Ted talk. 517000 views. And I'm sorry. It has it's got about half million views. January ninth, 2019. It's called How Find. Why, I, why am not showing wide angle? It's called how to know heads off. It's called how to find person who can help you get ahead at work by Carla Harris from January ninth, 2019. Yeah, OK. remarkably not any real information in there's like this like a two or three sentence Wall Street veteran Carl Harris wants you to watch whole thing. Anyway let's, let's, let's listen to what she says. Let's listen to her answer to the question that you asked. Right wait, need to unmute desktop audio. Hang one second good thing remembered do this. It's really important that they have those three things. And then once you have identified the person, how do you ask for one? The script goes like this, Jim. I'm really interested getting promoted this year. I've had an amazing year and I cannot show this organization anything else to prove my worthiness or my readiness for this promotion, but i am aware that somebody has to be behind closed doors, arguing my behalf and pounding the table. You know me, you know my work, and you are aware client feedback and I hope that you will feel comfortable arguing my behalf. If Jim knows you and you have any kind relationship, there's a very high probability that he will answer yes. And if he says yes, he will endeavor to get it done for you. But there's also shot go. Like that's, that's, that's her answer to the question that posed. How do you how you get mentor? I wanted that be in category one. Oh, I'm sorry. How get sponsor? wanted that be in category one because it pretty directly informs the audience or a pretty directly answers for for you listening. how do know, ask somebody why That's pretty straightforward. Ask. I mean, it assumes some stuff. But that, that script she just gave you pretty straightforward. Yeah. All right. Let me bring her oh, did I stop presenting? Why would I do that? Why would I that? Weird. OK, know why did what I just did. It's like I forgot how do podcast. Yeah, Good we're back on our cameras. right we're on Steelman. just, we went Steelman Yeah. only thing, the only the only thing in the Steelman that I have, the only with Steelman the only thing in this Carla Harris talk that I had an issue with all is she's oh, I needed a word for this because they're not, they're not mentors. They're, know, settled on sponsors and she's All right. right. they're not champions. are sure? mean, think they are champions. They are. So I think we're playing word games. They're advocates, they're sponsors, they're, yeah, champions, the championing for you. Yeah but mean that that point so minor that I'm willing to go. It's sort like that when become this like professional Ted speaker, need have these like little quips and little, know, little trademark these little things. Right. So it's sort of little bit that happening. But I'm forgiver because such good talk. so there's that. OK So let's see. So are our points this. What do we think this one? Like mentor advice can't reach the room where the ranking happens.[UH] percent. Right. mentors don't have reach. They're not in there. Yeah. So yeah, that might not even be organization. mean, know, mentors. I've seen lot people that been mentors that aren't even at your organization. I would say lot people do that. Yeah, absolutely. You know and a sponsor that the Carla Harris defines a sponsor as three things. Number one, have seat table decision making table. Right? Two, they have exposure to your work. And three, they have real power. So you might have, you might be missing one those. If miss one those three it's a tall uphill battle. Right? Yeah And then sponsorship. And then, and then the other thing want point out this one, and this is not really like one our points or whatever but sponsorship. know, the thing your boss should be doing for you at work for free as normal part of being, know, in a team, an organization. not happen I'll just not only does that step to the other side for second and give you the boss's perspective. OK, right. I have 2465 Jensen. That's So how I able advocate or sponsor all of those people? Get one 65th of his. That's right. And surely all them can get promoted. Yeah. Right There's all kinds things where people will say I can't do it. Right. Or as I like to read when they say that I won't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. there's way they'll find way. I think, I think this is a great one. Like listen, I'm all for wearing a cool of the jacket. the Jensen Wang's world. have like 55 direct reports or however many. Every time I watch video, he's got more direct reports Boy, you think you think some those people are getting equal sponsorship opportunity? think some them are getting ignored some them getting sponsorship? know, mean, think he's like his favorite five are getting all the sponsorship favors. Undoubtedly. Right? Yeah, undoubtedly. Same thing applies with Amazon for that model. Right? That's great one left out of that podcast that we did on just which mean now now have go up because remember. right, But it was called Why You Should Have One Ones something like that. Yeah, that's right. one on one to arguing agile to 15 theory. OK. What, great, what great thumbnail. don't know. when went up because YouTube is terrible. So [UH] arguing agile to 15. Why one ones still matter and why you should have them with our featuring our friend Jensen Hwang at 11 minute 31 seconds. Justin Hwang's leadership team. Yeah, that was when was talking the the stripe CEO. believe. Yeah, that's right yeah, was great point that got left out that podcast But yeah, equal opportunity for everybody. Or mean, not equal for those that want to move ahead. And you kind advocate for an equal for those you know, that's right. That's right. mean, listen, cool jacket. That is cool jacket. So let's talk takeaways. stop asking your mentor how to get promoted. mean, honestly, there's reason to stop doing that [UH] keep doing that but also start looking for a sponsor. Can you name your sponsor out loud? know have one they sit where decision happens? Do they have the are they on three categories that we talked about do they have power? They have the power like human format. Do they have seat at table? Are exposed your work? And do they actually have real power? they have those three things? and then you know, if the answers are yes those two questions, well, answers are name. Yes to all three. Then you have another question to ask. little, little introspection ask, which is when was last time spent their capital on you? Great questions. I close one out by saying you apply for mentorship that you earn sponsorship. Yeah, yeah, that's good one. That's good one yeah, I, you know, I have another one[UH] that I think this on another podcast did to ask your boss says or maybe it's later this bucket. Anyway, I have another question which should probably on here where you ask them when my name comes up and I'm not the room. What kinds things do you say? You know that I think had that on another podcast. I seem to recall that the one about political operators changing message like manipulative versus non non-manipulative communication. was that podcast that did. I can't remember number. Yeah, either. But I remember talking about it. Yeah, that's because remember you were, you were asking that because were, you were really catching them. You weren't really trying like catch gotcha. But were asking it because you instead of actually like giving you a, a good response because that shows that they've been sponsoring you helping career. They're like, what heard? What you heard? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's this one. All right. Let's see mentors or sponsors, which have you had in your career and which one actually helped you move forward? Om, that was the easy category. I just to just want say all right. quick easy 20 minute category. And here's here's where like an 80s arcade game. Things get harder and faster the longer that you go on Sorry. The original line here was harder faster until die. That was original line. But was you're not dying even when you find a real sponsor, there are three ways they can quietly fail you and will not see coming. All right, we're delve into the three ways. Three, five. so we already talked about in this section. We already talked about the three things look for from the Carla Harris talk. This is different than that. So I don't, don't disagree with what she said. I just think there are more things going on in a complex world that a twelve and half minute or 13 minute Ted talk can't cover. Shocking, right? Right So let's say that found what you think is great sponsor on paper. So here is a trap that you want avoid. There are three quiet ways that they fail you and none of them are quickly apparent. Oh no, we can't instantly find these things out on the Internet or wherever. We have to slowly observe them time. I'm out trust me. Yeah. In this instant world. Trust me, I know. But listen, at least won't wait long these things because we're name right now. Number one, they say the right words but they don't actually believe in spending capital This is the executive that I used work for where he would not lift a finger to help quote his people. It was he took credit for everything. remember the stories would tell about. Yeah, stood front company. was yeah, took me lots nights was real hard, but I did it. you know, mean while this whole team is looking, they're like with their mouths open what you talking about? You weren't even part this. You just swooped in the last five minutes. Yeah. You know, said we done? OK. then went and took credit. So some people just don't believe in putting anybody they think because they had it hard way. Everybody should. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes that's, that's one. They don't believe spending capital. Two - they do believe. but they have no juice or juice. Carla Harris said, have no power. They're advocating from chair with no power. Right? So these people that have no juice are probably not even really advocating for you because you're not the room. don't know. Right. Right. I might know someone that's not really pushing your, you know, your best interest forward. Right? Yeah [UH] I've worked for mostly people like this have been my bosses. Mostly people like this as they, they, they understand language but they just fail to do it. You know, the sad part about this one is I don't know makes better or worse is they're not. I used to tell people all time, like it. They're not being malicious by not doing They're just not thinking about you. You don't really come up on their radar their thought process. They just, you're just not that important them are. Your number on spreadsheet for them end day. know that helps or not but the three is think the dangerous one. they're a real sponsor but they only ever bet on people who remind them of themselves. And boy, that what I just said could be super loaded but it's like don't even think about don't think about what's directly mind right now. I'm saying like people the same school, people that had the same vibe, people dress the same. The Silicon Valley folks are all like this wearing hoodies that go for the same club. That's right. People, [UH] people[UH] Yes, people golf for same club And of course, obviously people look like them in mirror. the, mean, the biggest one here that's that's been real in my career the people that sound like like that, you know, that talk like they align their speech with the speech other people. Is the same sort word. Yes, the same words. And yes like modern communication teaches people that that's good thing. You want to reflect or what is it called? Reflect it's called the mirror mirror. You want mirror the person to get them like you more. That's says in[UH] when friends influence people write mirroring middle people. Yeah, it's creepy me. It's like meet mirror. You, just meet you. to that far away from stalking. So don't know. mean, I mean, you know, because you call me. I'm saying oh boy. Yes those those those my three things Some them align. mean, she says got have seat table. got have exposure to their work and you got have real power that the sponsor. Yeah I'm not debating you. mean those all true. do need have those three. Right? Yeah, guess guess from what we've spoken about thus far stands the reason to say sponsors really are where are. Great mentors may not be. other funny thing about this is like even she says video, she's you asked right after the, the piece that we played. She goes into another story. Oh yeah, yeah. can ask them and they might tell you no. And if they tell you no is because number one, they, they maybe haven't seen table have real power but they're to tell you that. Well, don't know work or they don't really know work. They're oh, is this Brian guy? don't know. He says he's a product manager. know what product management is, right? know so they're not to or the one. They don't like you. don't like Exactly. That it's that and that number three from category that I just talked about that is you don't look like them, like they don't like you. Sometimes it's nothing. I would, would put ambivalence in the they don't like you category Justin Wang has 60 direct reports is 98 direct reports. has 152 direct. The number keeps going up. Right? The more times he says he's growing. Yes guess. mean, there's lot money [UH] anyway. video Do you think he gives equal opportunity, equal sponsorship opportunity to all sixty seven his people. Or think likes some people more than others? Listen, all I'm saying is people that wear leather jackets probably get up above those that don't cool leather jackets. So yeah, I mean they don't like you also is like they don't they don't not like either. They just feel nothing. Right. So you, know, that might another reason why you know, so that goes into that. goes into that third bucket which is again why it's very dangerous bucketet and that's putting off of table anything that anyone would have thought of before clarified of like you know race and gender all that kind stuff kicking all that typical stuff people would talk about out conversation. It's still pretty bad. It is bad. There is nothing good this category. Sadly, boy as long there's nothing good category you know, can put screen the steel man. Hey, yes, I did this at Google[UM] I got people promoted Google. So trust me, know do Boy, I will tell you if I had nickel for all these people there on Internet as I worked at Google, I know how you can get promoted [UH] I worked Google as an IC and now I'm sell sponsorship to you. Like I can get you promoted. But first got give money. Right Boy if there if I could have. Oh boy. If had nickel for every person Internet that I've seen selling this scam [UH] Oh, could just call these people scammers. You see coming long away, can't you? just says their name and then long list of acts this and acts that spot your sponsors not going asking for money kids. Let me that right now. Yeah and then the the academic here sponsor needs a sponsor. The sponsor needs three things which we've already explained before. Sure. And then the practitioner, the practitioner, which the only one we should be talking about this category. So there's scammers out there. There's theoretical sponsors that have all three things. And then there's everyone else in the market. Everyone else is like your typical product manager whatever working. says, well, my sponsor has seat and they have exposure my work. But the CEO makes all product[UH] juice. Yeah, they have no power. Yeah. Which is like everyone or or or your, you know, your middle management just got cut. So you're, you know, skip level who's now your boss has 50 people under his center, he has idea who you are. Right? So now don't have exposure anymore because eliminated middle manager. You know, I know how would work for someone with no seat. guess middleman. You work for middle manager who basically doesn't matter organization. Maybe actually do. do know how you would work someone. I knew. do know how you would work for someone with no seat because this is way I felt now I've not been situation but many times I've seen QA people that work for the development department. And I remember having conversation like right after I right after I branched out into product management. I remember I was still going to events stuff like that where people would would show up and would talk to had people my network were folks. And would say I don't know how you I know how you are still working at a shop where you a shuffled underneath development where basically you work for development because you know there's no like there's no career mobility at that. Like you're never going be running the development department. know that. Right? Yeah. So you work for someone like your manager, your team leader, whatever, who has no seat. Then then they have no power. whatever development lead says is what's happen. So guess can see this because I've experienced it. You know, this might similar to how back day I.T. the I .T. function used to report the CFO because was a basically charge. Right? And yeah, it could be similar to that. Yeah. Yeah. The CFO doesn't really necessarily know your work. Yeah I typical one is, know, the person has juice. have no power. You know, that's pretty typical. then the, the larger companies, exposure one, you get buried larger company so avoid those, know and avoid the avoid being, know, don't don't give these folks your money like seriously. Definitely let's talk about some better points here. I had manager who[UH] they would talk talk but they wouldn't lift finger to promote anyone. fact, think all years that I worked with that person, I don't think person ever promoted any product managers work for them [UH] ever. I think they all either left company to get, you know, to get their raises or promotions or you know, senior titles whatever [UH] or move departments or both. You know, and that person was very like on spot. They definitely talk talk different like oh yeah, know [UH] great company because know there's lots opportunities and plain people moved up you work here and you know play your cards right whatever. But that person never went and use any their political capital for anyone I've seen people like that. just placate you right. Yeah. not actually do anything. Yeah I mean, know, the other funny thing about that is everybody that I've known that's been like that they've been promoted multiple. usually get promoted like once every year or 18 months. And it's funny because see like all the all their employees go nowhere. They say in same job titles for years years and they keep getting promotions. And it's wild me because I've seen this happen in multiple places. Maybe they have sponsors. Oh, they definitely do have sponsors. all sponsors probably, you know, covered people that look like them. It's obviously wild. Why is crazy? It's wild I've just seen that play play out again. mean, know, not they're not successful anything. I know. Maybe, maybe are in the room that it matters. So I almost made Hamilton joke. Maybe I'm wrong. You know, this is good one because I think I might be wrong here is you know, while I'm here like knocking out widgets and making customers happy, you know, they're over here plotting. So what's, what's said behind closed doors might sometimes [UH] have only a passing resemblance to what's happening on the other side real world. Yeah. So there is that the other one in this category. This is the one that I really wanted talk about. I really wanted frame this whole category around this one but I couldn't because it was it's too niche of topic. Yeah. Agile's flat org gospel. It pushes advocacy underground because it's flatter. You make the org. Right. It's like the if like got Mark Zuckerberg over here trying get rid of all middle managers like it's trend right now. Right? So what happens world where there's middle managers? There's just like people top and the, you know, and the workers, all this advocacy like the people top. Maybe do little bit advocacy. Maybe, maybe just go right back to tailorism[UH] but the advocacy gets pushed underground as these manager roles. The people who know arguably right should be doing this stuff. mean in the the Marty Cagan transformed way of being manager. What we're talking about here is your job that clear blockers. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. So without middle layer there, mean it goes underground. And the issue with going underground is[UH] that's even less fair. There's less of it's visible. First all, right? Nobody know, nobody knows what's happening. Suddenly see, well, know, Joe or Mary, just, oh, well, also like what talked about before is the sponsors who only look for lifting people that look like them or act like them or talk like them or have the same whatever belief specific beliefs whatever. And then everybody else. And then the everybody else is don't, there's no, it's not written down policy. It's just these people happen to be falling into these buckets. It's, I don't know. It's a very, very weird. Weird is. So if you're in such organization, this is where you get that advice from us again. Right? That resume updated folks. So audit your sponsor. Let's, let's go here to take look. Let's here takeaways. Audit the sponsor that you have for belief power and breath. That breadth with a with D can't say that word. Sounds like I'm saying breath. Make sure they're breathing. That's I'm saying. Right check your spot early often. That's say believe. Do they spend capital or do they just talk words? they just give jabber at you. That's right. That's a Mr. T insert Mr. T here. Jibber Jabber Jabber [UH] [UH] the food that's right[UH] power they have real seat or is their chair symbolic or title symbolic. I've been organizations where people had titles because their organizations merged and they didn't to like upset that person gave title but then took all money away. But still had that big title. Right? Right. So course they money away, also took their power away. That's right. That's right. And Breath do their alumni all look alike, sound alike, act alike, whatever the thing is. know, all, [UH] they're all looking man to finance. don't whatever, you know, whatever they are. They're all minions. Yeah, Sam Altman. does he does kind like minion that looks like time could like Kevin so yeah, anyway, so those things. So if you run your sponsor through through the through these checks, know, a quick, know, check some boxes. And if[UH] one missing, like, well, know, hey, that's problem. But also you know, do for you? know, what did they actually do? Because again [UH] I've been with people that talk good talk and can you all spun up. But you actually like look for behavior, you know, it's missing on there. Find out what they've done for people that did move up. Right [UH] through knowing them. So I'm glad I'm glad this where going because this next category. but before we're done, us know comments. Have you ever had sponsor who said all right things and then went silent the second that it needed cost them something to move forward? I'll let you know the comments because I'll write you a doctoral dissertation the comments. that brings us the part that nobody teaches. How you actually check before you bet two years life on this person. so you can't trust words and you shouldn't, then you should be keeping track of behavior it. Don't listen to how someone talks about sponsorship. Trace who they have actually advanced. it's time track the record over rhetoric. Pull their receipts, pull their car. That's I'm saying who reported to this person two years ago is what I'm saying. And where they now? Are they still at company? Are they in[UH] are same position were in while their boss moved up? Right. Twice. Right. Yeah. And maybe know, just contact these people too. Right. could actually have conversation with them see what they say. Yes. Listen to them. Yeah. This is alumni tracing right here. This is all, all every time college calls me up and is like Brian, would you like to donate? I'm no, no, won't. Don't trace this alumna. That's right. Don't trace this alumni. But that's exactly is you like to donate? I'm no your boss doing the same thing. Would you like donate my career? No, get out, Timmy. There'll be no, there'll no Christmas ham for you. Bob Cratchit, get in here. Like what so boy, like listen, think we've covered that one. Yeah, that the Harris talk [UH] she says you want identify person that will pound the table on your behalf. That's the, you know, again, people might be able to talk talk. Right. But now to see a show me evidence that you pounded table on this [UH] know, other people's behalf and then give me names. I'll names. Oh, wait. Yeah. Right. Right. Patiently. like while we're waiting, I think where's meme of There may have or may not been an emergency meme session right there. I don't know where were we mailman. Yeah, finished the steel man. No, actually we were we finished the first one on steel man here. Let's talk about the, the cynical like I've helped, I've helped so many so let's, let's move people. I'm, I'm so I'm so sick helping people. I'm so helped out. Helped out Yeah, I've helped many people. You know, many people have gone up. Yeah. Moved up the org. Just keep working hard. Don't question me. I help people time. Don't question me. That's what heard my head for what you just said. That's a very cynical take I can't name any them, but trust me, bro. That would be the academic is trace the outstream, trace the downstream outcomes and you'll able to, to trace them back, which is fine or whatever. The practitioner, I think is better show names. Like I don't, hear slogans. It's just like I'm too busy. Sure. I like the practitioner is really knocking park this podcast. have say they're like listen the whole time. I'm really busy. Like don't leave alone unless can give me names. Let me go talk those people, which is fine. That really good. That's really good piece pushback. If weren't for most time or like lot time, you don't really know this person. So how get names before you like you're interviewing and someone's oh yeah, totally sponsor people all time. Yeah, they've gone people work me going into such great things like look their LinkedIn three years later and they're such great places, none which I help with at all. Right? Right. So maybe just got fed up and left it's hard. It's hard don't know them. Absolutely. Right. mean, you do? can ask what sort things people done. Right. But that's about extent it. So I have [UH] some points here that says [UH] record beats rhetoric. So get names, specific names. If you have to, if you're interviewing, go in your [UH] become the Indiana Jones of LinkedIn. Go searching Holy Grail. Go searching for people that used to work there. And used be in the positions that you're looking at. Maybe can contact them directly. Yes, boy. That's, that's a [UH] I mean, I might be the temple of doom. Actually, now I'm thinking about it. They might have some horror stories tell you. They might. But you might want to know those before, know, because you're interview you're oh, tell me about someone that you got promoted. If you're going to couch your question that way to see they're serious about sponsorship not. I mean, the hiring manager can at you very easily. Sure. You know, so would just ask this very blankly telling about, you know, someone that you helped maybe not help get promoted, maybe a better way to phrase that. But then whatever say, like you need to be quiet and let them, let, let them, you know spin out rope. Right. And then later on need to go verify. Yeah, yeah, So those some things[UH] there's some things here in the how to identify this situation. The, the takeaway have here to stop evaluating sponsors on talk alone and start evaluating on who they've helped move up. So who the questions I wrote here were who reported them two years ago. Where those people now? And and can name opportunity that they helped somebody get good luck those, Right? Yeah. may just get the dog. Yeah. Yeah. Well, mean it's just a generic one. If they keep running around generic circle and don't actually name anyone, don't actually like talk about specific times[UH] That's red flag. know, I'm the other. other one is like a savvy person who really like can talk the talk on this one would just claim that they were responsible for something that they really had very little, you know, very like [UH] like mentor claiming that like, oh, I gave them advice and they sail that's up. But like all did was like give them talking you whatever. Yeah, that's not same. That's not what we're talking about because didn't cost them anything. right. Right Yeah, that's this one. mean, that's a quick category that So tell us the comments what other questions do you have for vetting potential sponsors to figure out who's real deal and who's a phone? I haven't used word phone like since [UH] 1865. mean, he's word phony. You are phony. See, since 1929, this market crash and then great 1929 A .I. market dried up. So until now, everything that we've discussed has just pointed fingers outward. Now it's time for some introspection and it's time to look at where those four fingers pointing back to [UM] in the mirror. That's right. So we spent whole time discussing [UH] spent whole time discussing that we've been doing the vetting of other people discussing vetting other people. So we probably could go on for another hour continuing debate sponsorship Is it meritocratic? Is it politics? Should you just bet on one strong sponsor or had bet? Yeah. bet. Spread spread across spread your bread across table. That's I'm saying. Double down What is person is your sponsor? do get back from you? Like there's lot questions that we could keep going have other categories. Right. But I this podcast mean I'd podcast today. That's I'm saying. So [UH] I end this podcast asking the audience to to think about whether can name someone that you have sponsored not mentored sponsored. That's good one because like you have have these things. Right. But sometimes you do have these things. Maybe you don't have a maybe don't realize that you've been like you have the power comes with influence. So maybe you actually have the seat table and you don't realize it. I would say that's not not necessarily most likely but we just said like in flat organization where influence rather authority is where power is. Sure. You could, you could be in this position, you know, and also might hiring manager something. might actually have this power. Yeah [UH] And if you've done this, maybe one. So we said wouldn't talk about what's it for the sponsor but I just wanted to [UH] cover this point. Right. So say you're sponsor. You have gave somebody the get ahead And later on maybe you might need somebody who is responsible to handle another project you come up with. Are to turn that person because they've, you know, they've already proven themselves. Yeah Plus they look like you. No, didn't say no. Yikes Listen, it's real thing. the the junior people like they have no capital spend. So they're warriors. But also like who doesn't like being next to success. That's like this. thing about the sponsorship is like you're you're you're giving people opportunity for success and costs nothing. nearly nothing compared to what the junior person has spent to get there, you know, years to even get into adjacent to the room, you know, stand outside hallway room or whatever. Sorry, just got done [UH] and kept telling me to read the third door where he's saying like there's different ways to, you know, get into the halls power whatever. the three ways you stand line. Oh, three ways get into club. You stand number one, stand line. Number two is VIP entrance with a bounce that lets in. know, that's all paparazzi or whatever. Number three is like don't go down alleyway. You're crawling kitchen. If you know make your real attack. Yeah, it's, it's sorry. Like it's, it's there. It's bit fairy tale. But I got point book. And that's, that's here. like junior people are spending bunch effort. And now you're this position regardless of how got there. Why not use power? Why not use Why would get this power not use it? Right, right oh, and [UH] I did have the Sylvia Ann Hewlett I didn't demo any that on that. didn't show any that podcast. But the Sylvia and Hewlett writing on this calls for a portfolio of sponsors, not single bet, portfolio of sponsors. So which is interesting because haven't talked about that up until this point is sponsor for different opportunities or situations which is way more realistic than just you know an ideal sponsor. Hopefully my boss likes me like, well, reality, what do that situation your boss doesn't know who you are? I mean, obviously go try find another job, but know, maybe like where you work. Maybe. Right. Maybe like team members. You find out. So but you can find other sponsors. certainly can. Absolutely I'm glad agree on that because the steel man here. Oh, it's just politics[UM] it's just work hard and keep head down [UM] you too can retire with a golden watch. Just work hard and keep your head down. Yeah, that never got anybody anywhere. Just saying, OK all that does really is maybe it extends longevity of you staying green a spreadsheet somewhere for little bit until a day comes when suddenly changes. want, you hear messed up part That's right. hear messed part is that that the the developer told story about many other like this is his motto. He's like just just stay politics. Ignore politics. Just keep your head down working and kknow, you'll be rewarded[UH] the number one guy was stabbing everyone back, claiming success behind closed doors and not, know, mean, number guy. This was what he would tell everyone. course. So I got real bad taste mouth for this. You know whenever hear this, my brain immediately switches into oh, what you hiding? Yeah, yeah, can. right. Yeah, yeah, yeah the academic viewpoint of you should spread your bets out and your sponsorships a portfolio. It sounds like good theory and it sounds it sounds like sound advice. I think of the three, this time the academic actually wins my book. Right? Spread your bet because you could spend time working with sponsor. And then what happens if they find another opportunity? You're back ground zero. Yeah. So if spread your bets like it says here, multiple, you know, for different reasons, multiple sponsors, at least got some fall back on. Right. Right. And I mean just just because this is what my life is right now is you know, cold calling, cold not firing off[UH] messages emails that people who don't know me on the Internet like the more people you ask. Going back the first, the first category our podcast, more people you ask. That's more people that may say yes. mean, listen, most of them might say no, but more people you ask, more people say yes. It is numbers game. Yeah, yeah I like practitioner here though I'm too busy sponsor people. I'm swamped. Yeah. Are you, are you really always swamped? There might be, you know, time when you are, but are you really always swamped to sponsor somebody? Listen, I don't know. I I've worked lot places where the boss is a total slave to their phone and their and their Microsoft calendar or Gmail calendar completely not own their calendar. People put meetings on executives, other people in other departments, and have, know, they just have to say yes to everything and to all meetings. Otherwise, know, they're, they're being difficult or hard to, you know, hard arrange or hard to track down or whatever. And you know, they get labeled with a certain level. So they, they feel like need go. then there's no time for any employees because spend all their time with other people other departments. You know, that's not customers either I mean maybe some them are very, few. But and they could be being like, I'm not this, but I am going sponsor another person. why don't you go my stead? But since they're so busy, they don't ever think like that. That's, that's I can really get down practitioner what they're saying. They're too busy. But what they're really saying is like I'm not control my calendar. Yeah. So you're describing, you know, managers here, right Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I to, want be more, want be more precise about what I'm saying It's not that it's not just I'm not control calendar. It's I don't know how to exert the effort to take control my life I'm to let the tech like run my life. Basically whoever know has my email can can put calendar invite on there. They won't say no. They mean that's the thing, right? They won't say no. So saying no is big thing. The shorter word than yes should be easier. But you speak, know it's truly like people pleaser. mean some of it is that some is. Yes, but lack of, you know, delegation. right. Don't delegate simple things. Right. true. So yeah, that's true. yeah. So there's some points here. There's some points here. We're to him quickly because think what just talked about was like way better than points that here. Like the meritocracy story and the great work stays invisible without a voice meaning without someone backing it in the room when person's not there. Yeah, this this is probably a solid 60 percent of developers ever work with the best developers ever work with. know the developers that will really dove into problems figure out what's wrong, like not just out patches they're not really sure. developers that will take the extra time figure out why things don't work when it's works on my box. That kind thing. Yeah, yeah the quiet keep their head heads down like thorough, you know pleasure work with. But whether those people have anyone that elevates in the organization not, I don't know. sounds like an ideal employee. It does. that's pretty much how some organizations you know, classify these people. It's not troublemaker. Right. Always, always produces. Right. It's a developer. mean, you know, keep, keep feeding them pizza. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. But but when they're when when you're again, that goes back to early podcast where you got a QA engineer. They're really great, really reliable, very thorough, but one really knows them. And mean nobody really knows QA engineer does. Like their work on that team really, helps that team. But it doesn't elevate up to you know, director development level. Right? They don't know their work personally. They don't really know what QA does. Period. Let's just say that. So they don't ever get the sponsorship opportunity. And they're basically and their career at that company basically a dead end because it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you're stuck in a role like that, right can do? Maybe things could do is capture some the highlights of what you've contributed to. Yeah [UH] as you know, from a team's perspective, but say through prudent Quay practices or whatever is, we may manage do X, Z and put that out newsletter. Simple thing do, right? At least people are aware it then outside the, the microcoms that work in. Yeah, don't have great suggestion for this one mean, if I'm wreck my brain, I'm to say I would try to push outside your team to try to solve problems for other people that aren't always your direct people your team. Of course, but like saying that means you're do extra work, which stinks. Yeah, but but it seems be that position first place. You're stuck that team under in that that weird structure whatever. Like you can it's I have have individual problems for systemic issues. That's all have right now. Right. Keep resume updated. Precisely. Yeah 11 strong sponsor is single point failure. don't debate that. That's that is need to hedge bets. Yeah, yeah. And also like what happens need help in different situation. Right. You know, I like I'm going through this now where I'm I'm only now developing my like as a product manager. you travel with sales? You talk customers and stuff but like you're not really focused on pitching like a salesperson would be focused on pitching or like company founder would be focused on pitching. Yeah, I never really got strong at doing that. I did it as sort like side saddle. I always had someone there cover pitching. Right, right. Now [UM] solo got to learn pitch quickly. It's hard. It is get point quickly. Sell people. Why you more? know, why you better than competitors quickly? know? Yeah. And and that kind skill like do where's where's sponsor? Where's your person can put you front the the right lead or right, know [UH] yeah. Some the stuff you, you need to think about what sponsors are, who sponsors are have available And in what arenas Because there are other arenas that. Sure. Yeah, that's thing. Yeah, there are others. There's more the left right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. stop auditing only the people, people above you and start being the sponsor to others that you wish that had[UH] lead example. So You know, just [UH] start somewhere. know, this is super easy like if you're the team lead and you have this QA engineer we're talking about on your team, like you take away here [UH] can push them. I've seen really, really excellent team leads or like development leads. Right? I've seen them push up people that didn't like that. They weren't confident to speak present on like Sprint reviews stuff like that with customers room. I've seen them push people up and push them to present opportunity little things like that. Like doesn't cost anything. mean, the worst happens is you get executive who's real or you get a, it's usually not customers but it's a stakeholder. Usually internal state. Usually they're internal folks that like higher up company. Like I remember had a, we had a, know it was VP sales or CEO. you couldn't, anybody who was English as second language, like he couldn't, you couldn't put them in a speaking role at a sprint review. He would zone out like you can call racist. But [UH] like the reality working on that development team was if you wanted him to be engaged, you had get someone who, who spoke very well and articulately to, to narrate the presentation narration rescue. Yeah, well, sadly, this way before I know. know that these days can have George Clooney do your demo[UH] Listen, George Clooney can do all my demo. I'll sit with feet up. Yeah, this was live room. I know best times. Yeah, know, cost you to help and coach and be that person's like [UH] safety net while they were speaking. So that if you saw this person zone out, can, know, cut into and bring back on. Cost you nothing. Nothing all. Not impact you at all if this person zones out. And that's, that's, and that's I probably gave the worst example because is like it's borderline. it's probably unprofessional of that person to be, know, a giant or whatever would be in that meeting. But right. He was what was. That's welcome to real real stories of working in software development. It's series. Yeah. let us know comments you actually tried sponsoring someone[UH] what happened and what did it cost you? That's, what ask. So, all right. So we So started with claim that probably annoyed that maybe annoyed you. Maybe it annoyed you that your mentor can't get you promoted. And here are end[UH] reminding you that advice happens your face advancement happens behind back, which requires other sort of [UH] skill sets to figure out if it's even happening because it's invisible. don't know it's happening. That's That's right. There are third party, fourth party people talking about your sponsor saying good things about you. That's indication, right? Yeah, So as promised, here is your sticky note at the end. me see can put screen between us. don't keep flipping. speaking of [UH] your sticky taste, your sticky takeaway, like sticky rice. That's right [UH] here, here they are. Here's your four points. And point number one, name your sponsor. If can't, you've got mentors only [UH] oops. All mentors. Number two [UH] audit them [UH] and they get the belief. Do have the belief, the juice, and the breath? All three check pulses. I'm saying number three, ask who, who do you promote [UH] why is it so accusatory? Ask who you promote? Who promote? And then, and then listen, listen know and then number four is sponsor one person this quarter and [UH] name risk was named. It should be named the cost. Name cost. Yeah, And that's it. Those the those the those four points for the sticky. And you know, that's it. You know, hope the episode has been helpful and [UH] we I'm not that. So hope it kind clarifies sponsorship, mentorship, and all the things in between. Yes. And [UH] thank for staying this long. Please let us know comments below what think this broadcast and what else you'd like us delve into