Pamela Kupper

 [00:00:00] today I am excited to have a theatrical designer. With over 25 years of experience in opera events, broadcast and fashion, she has created unforgettable lighting designs for many well-known companies such as Chanel, Adidas, and Tiffany. Welcome, Pamela Cupper. Thank you, mark, for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Thank you. I, I appreciate you [00:01:00] being on. I'm always, uh, I love. Formally trained theatrical designers. 'cause I know the amount of work that goes into it. 'cause I think I've said on this podcast that I originally wanted to be a set designer and then got distracted along the way. So anybody who stayed with it and you're in the union and the whole thing, you know, I admire because I know what goes into it.

So with that, tell us how you got started. Um, it really was by accident. Um, you know, I took an acting class when I was younger. Uh, I liked it. Uh, I had a vision though at the time that I was gonna be a doctor. Uh, really was very, um, drawn into the world of the hearing impaired. Wanted to learn sight sign language.

Uh, and then I had a friend who was an amazing visual artist and she wanted to go to a performing arts middle school in high school that had just opened in our [00:02:00] area. And so we both tried out. I tried out for theater, but I tried out, there was a technical field, so I was good at making stuff. Mm-hmm. So I went in with that idea, but thought I would do the acting and my friend got in and I ended up going to the school and she did it.

Wow. And that just sort of started this whole journey. I got really bit by the theater bug and I had an amazing. Scene design teacher. Okay. Uh, or he was more a technical director and he just really taught me a lot about theater and lighting, um, scenic design, and that was it for me. And so from there I went to NYU and that just started my journey.

Wow. So you were the high school, was it in New York? No, it was in Florida. In Florida, okay. So it's kind of like the high school performing arts in New York, but in Florida version. Exactly. [00:03:00] Yeah. I mean, we aim to be like the LaGuardia of Palm Beach County. That's nice. And then you came to New York for grad school?

 Lighting design. I came to NYU to get my BFA and theatrical design. Um, and at the time I was doing both costumes and lighting, but lighting just really drew me in and I've been doing that ever since in various forms. So,. Early in your career because I, you know, you get, you go to school and you do all this schooling, um, and I wanna pick your brain because I was on a similar track early on in my career, but I wanted to be a set designer and actually went, was gonna go to NYU and things changed along the way, getting out of school.

What, what was like your first job, or how did you get yourself out there to, you know, work in new, was it in New York or did you go back to Florida? Or were you doing some stuff elsewhere? I. No. So I stayed in New York. I actually started [00:04:00] working, um, in college with a group of sort of off Broadway, uh, electricians.

Mm-hmm. Uh, as an intern. And then that sort of grew from there. And I really came out of school very Broadway or bust. Right. This is what I was gonna do. I'm gonna be a theatrical designer. There's no other option. Uh, I know that. Yep. And then I realized, uh, well I also needed to pay my bills. And big one, designing off off Broadway, didn't pay that.

And working as an associate, um, on Broadway was great, but you know, you couldn't do it 52 weeks a year. Um, so I had to find another way to pay my bills, um, and I didn't wanna work in the service. Like food industry. And a friend happened to say to me, he was an electrician. He's like, oh, I'm going to do this like, uh, corporate event in Atlanta and like it's, you know, $10 an hour more than working in New [00:05:00] York and you get to travel and they pay for all of it.

Uh, and I thought, wow, that sounds amazing. Sign me up. And I really feel like there are a couple of people that I can look back and say, that person. Started my career, you know, where I can trace every corporate meeting back to that one meeting that I met people on that meeting. I also actually can, um, trace my Broadway career back to that.

'cause the designer on that show was a Broadway designer, uh, paying his bills, doing corporate meetings. And I did my first Broadway show with him, got my union card because of that. Mm-hmm. Um, and then that sort of. Took off my theatrical career in that world. No, I, I completely understand that. You know, I was, like I said, in a very similar track and I got to New York and Broadway or bust, and then I was it.

Same thing. I think [00:06:00] the money plays a big part in theater, particularly theater design in the Broadway really doesn't pay enough to live in New York. You know, and I know a lot of people actually, they, they came to New York with that in mind, and they were actors, or they were technical people and they, they ultimately left because it was just too much, um, to just live here.

 Like you, I was, I was working at Macy's and I wanted be a set designer. I was like, Macy's window display. I need to pay my bills, you know, doing windows. And it wasn't a huge job, but it was a job that paid, paid money and therefore I was able to eat. Um, and then we got wrapped up in fragrance launches and all of that.

So you start seeing this whole corporate world, or this, I don't wanna say corporate world, but event world out there, it's like theater, but it pays better. So, yeah, that's for sure. And I think that as a designer, as a creator . The work I needed to do was an expression of that. Yeah. And just working, I mean, I, I've done all sorts of jobs.

[00:07:00] I worked for an engineer and did all of their drafting and while that was great and I picked up a ton of skills that I wouldn't have expected, um. Doing what I'm doing. Uh, and it's super helpful, but it didn't fulfill that creative part of me. And so finding other creative expressions and making money, uh, seemed to really be the way to go 

so you're doing some of these corporate things, but were you still, you know, going back to off Broadway and doing some stuff over there?

Yeah, for a long time I was trying to balance both worlds. Um, you know, designing, I've designed a bunch of off-Broadway shows, regional productions, um, and then slotting in corporate, uh, along the way. But I think there was a point, and I can't tell you exactly what that point was, where I, you know, I still do theater, but it isn't my main focus.

When I moved into the fashion [00:08:00] space, I really got sucked in by the convergence of art and technology and creativity. And not that that isn't happening in the theater, but it's not happening on the same scale. And the ability to work with new products and, you know, artists and, uh, fashion kind of just sucked me in in a whole new way.

Um. Yeah, I agree. I think fashion and theater, they're so close in many ways, and that's, once again, how I got sucked into fashion was glamorous. It was like theater and, but it was faster also for me, you know, I felt it was like you were doing a show. A show, a show rather than a Broadway offroad, which would take weeks, months to, you know, you're working for so long and.

You know, fashion, you're, you're, you're in and out of there. I don't know what your timeframe, but I remember back in the day, Brian Park, you know, they would be doing shows back to back hourly, but you know, the lighting and the set designers had to kind of work [00:09:00] simultaneously on different shows. Yeah, no, I mean, I did for three seasons have a fashion venue for IMG.

Oh, you did? Okay. And so I, you know, 24 shows in a. Four day season, and outside projects. , so yeah, definitely lots of shows balancing and juggling different creative ideas all at once. Um, you know, it takes a lot of mental resources to do fashion, um, and a lot of, uh. Executive functioning skills to keep it all in order.

Yes, it does. It's where your engineering and your doc, your, your interest in being a doctor and all that probably all come together, um, because you can kind of think all those things through very technical. Um, now for those who don't know the scenic, uh, union card, so you said you did Broadway , you worked on a show and then you got the scenic card.

For those who don't know. What is it? What [00:10:00] that adds to your career. , so I am a member of Local 8 29, uh, United CIC artists, uh, which has started as a guild, um, of designers and painters for theater. Uh, and.

It later became part of IC, which is the International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage employees. Uh, and local one is the stage hand union here in New York that represents the people who work on Broadway behind the scenes. Um, I mean there are also the costume local or the dressers, and so there are lots of different, um.

IOC locals involved in Broadway. Um, so a 29, you know, as a designer felt like, you know, a theatrical designer, like winning the, becoming part of it was like [00:11:00] winning the lottery. Right? You know, I felt like this is a stamp of approval from my, um, peers or, you know, my elders that like I have the skills to be a part of this.

Very small group of people that work on Broadway. Uh, you know, it also affords its members protection, you know, with contract negotiations. Uh, USA doesn't just work in New York on Broadway, they're part of television. They're part of movie making. Mm-hmm. Um. They encompass a lot of the live events, um, and filmed events, you know, that we as a group of artists put out.

Uh, they also help you with some of the practical skills of, Hey, I've got this contract with this producer, you know, is this. Is this right? Is this you? Is this the standard? [00:12:00] Um, you know, so in the theater world, it's an amazing thing, I have to say. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate into the live events world.

And so I've had to learn to be my own, um, contract negotiator. I've had to learn, uh, you know, some additional business skills that I didn't think I was gonna need as a designer. But I, you know, I think they make us better designers too. Yeah. So did you have to take a test for that or did you just, uh, because you're already working?

No, I did. I mean, I took the union exam and honestly. I already had a Broadway show at the time. Right. But it was cheaper to get in, um, through the union exam than it was to buy your way in. So I, you know, I was really counting those pennies still at that time. And so if I could save some money and put myself through the union exam, which, uh, is a panel of three to five designers who [00:13:00] have, you know, a huge body of work and they.

Look at what you're doing and they pull it apart and tell you how to do it better and you hope you survive was like a multi-day test. Uh, gosh, it's so long ago, but I remember it being two sessions and I think they happened in one day. You know, there was sort of a, and this may have changed over time, but there's a quiz component where you sit down and they give you this.

You know, concept, uh, you have to light this curtain and you only have these positions, and how would you light it and focus it? Okay. Uh, and then the portfolio reviews. The second part where you sit down with other designers, um, wow. Now it's because I remember processing back in the day when I wanted to be a set designer.

This idea of going to the union was just like the holy grail if one, 'cause once you're in, you're in, you can now do not just at live events, but you can do [00:14:00] television like, because you're part of the union, there's those who are not part of the union.

Can they do tv? Uh, that's a good question. I think what's streaming now, a lot of that's changed, but at the time you couldn't, and it did actually really help me. Um, I worked on the Olympics, uh. Oh gosh, in 2004, so that dates me a little. Um, and it kind of, uh, was accidental, but having my union card was helpful in me getting the job at the time.

Uh, Vectorworks had just started doing 3D modeling and, um, you know, I knew how to do it and I was brought in on. The, uh, art side of the Olympics by, um, the art director to 3D model, as opposed to build a physical model of what the uh, NBC broadcast was gonna look like. And I [00:15:00] hop in to say to the set designer at the time, or the production designer.

Hey, you know, you use these same scenic pieces over and over again and you just re-skin them like every two years for the summer Olympics and then the Winter Olympics. Like, why are you still hand drafting that? Let's turn this into like, you know, AutoCAD. 'cause that was what set designers were still using at that point, and.

That got me a job in the art department for nine months, um, working on the Olympics, but I needed to have my 8 29 card. Right. And luckily I did because I had been working on Broadway, so. Right. It did help open a door. So like looking, so there was another transition too. It's interesting 'cause you talk about the, um, CAD for those who don't know, Vectorworks as a, as a CAD software used in theater a lot.

Um, so it sounds like you were, you. You were using Vectorworks and and CAD drawings, was that because of corporate world or [00:16:00] just you decided to pick it up or just realized that's where you had to go with that? Or was in theater first? Like who was using it first? Well, oh, that's hard to answer. I mean, I did, when I went to NYU, I did learn to hand draft first.

Right? But. Theater and other design elements were starting to use computerized drafting. And so I did learn AutoCAD in college. Um, and so I though predominantly was doing hand drafting for my own work until I started working, um, with a designer who is running Lincoln Center Festival and he was. Really a big computer drafting guy.

And honestly, I'm left-handed. I am, my drawings were always so messy because I just, no matter what I did, I would just like move my hand and smudge everything. So I, once I learned how to do a light plot on the computer, I [00:17:00] was hooked and done. Um, and so, you know. I started learning it in theater, but I think it really evolved more because in the corporate world, um, the meeting worlds, they were definitely full in.

It was easier to share drawings. Sure. You know, just send a file as opposed to, you know, I would draft for other designers and they would just do an onion skin and then they would FedEx onion skin to me. Right. And then I would like. Hand draft it and then send it back to them. And or I would go to ever, um, EverReady, which was a print shop in, um, in Union Square in New York.

And I'd take that drawing and then have it duplicated and then FedEx it out to the tds or the audio designer, whoever else needed that information. So it became a very effective communication tool. Uh, it was a lot cheaper to get drawings and ideas across. [00:18:00] Yeah, it's, it was a game changer. I mean, it's, now it's, that's all there is, right?

Nobody, I don't think anybody hand draws it. Well, there's a couple like Roman and Williams, don't they still hand draw a lot? I think there's some designers who do. I mean, it's an art form. It's beautiful. You know, a really well designed or drafted design. It, it. Just as good as looking at a painting to me.

I agree. It's, it, there's a, there's a certain arc to it and certain there's a style to it that no computer's going to match. , it was a Frank Lloyd Wright exhibit once and it was just all his drawings. Yeah, they were beautiful. I mean, they're Frank Lloyd Wright, but they were beautiful. Hand drawn pieces of art. Um, so there are a few people that still do it, I guess. So now you go from fashion events, uh, opera broadcast.

Is there one that you like the best? Uh, the one that challenges me the most at the time. [00:19:00] At the time, um, no, I. I guess events. I, I really like the live interaction with the audience. Okay. Um, I like being there and seeing it. Um, I like the adrenaline rush of like, oh my gosh, is this gonna go really right or is it gonna go completely wrong?

And even sometimes completely wrong is really good in someone else's eyes. So, uh. I, it's a real rollercoaster and I enjoy it. Yeah, that is exciting. And, and the interesting thing is the, the guests may be going through this experience of lighting and not realizing what they're experiencing. I was talking to other lighting designer, and he was always saying, you know, good design, people don't always notice, 

 There's some pluses and minuses to that because you want it to feel natural. You want it to feel, you know, part of the environment, but you know when it's bad, you notice it more. , [00:20:00] there's nothing worse than a bad lighting design. And I think people don't realize, uh, how important lighting is.

Yeah, I agree. I think. You know, I drive everyone around me crazy. 'cause I'm always commenting on the lighting, no matter where we go. Yeah. Not just at events. Um, in some ways it's ruined me for the world, uh, because I notice bad lighting really has an effect on people. Um, and, but really good lighting.

I, I, I think it's different what we're talking about. It has to be appropriate for the environment, right? Like there's much different, you wanna have a very different type of lighting in a restaurant, right? Um, you know, that's lends to wanting to eat in that environment for it to be soothing, um, than you would add an event.

And I think sometimes an event. Also, the lighting can be very subtle and sometimes [00:21:00] you're trying to tell a story and that lighting has to be bold and it has to be colorful. And I think ultimately for me, it's always about what is the story that I'm trying to tell? What is the story we're collectively trying to tell?

And the lighting has to match that. Right. So describe your process. Somebody comes to you, or a set designer or production designer comes to you or a client. They show you a rendering. Is that how it works? 

 How do most people come to you and how do you kind of navigate the process? Um, I mean. At this point, a lot of times I'm getting brought in. Once a rendering has been done, a producer will come to me, or a technical director will come to me. Uh, I always hope that they come to me before that rendering, um, so that I am part of the creative process.

 We are moving very fast these days. Right? And, you know, timeframes, sometimes I'm doing an event and it's three weeks out, so. [00:22:00] Uh, you know, so I always, my approach is holistic. Collaboratively, what is the story? And so I think about that first. And I, you know, if I'm working on a branded event, I'm, you know, gathering information about the client, you know, what, what are they doing?

What is their mission, what's their motivation for this event? Um, and then, yeah, I have to filter it through my own personal lighting lens. Um, again, like. What is the emotional journey we're taking the participants on? Um. And how's the best way to express that with where are we focusing lighting, where, what colors are we using?

You know, I even color isn't just red or green or blue, but white. Is it warm white? Is it cool white? Is it a neutral white? Um, you know, even on a fashion show, I think about that when I'm lighting a runway, like what white will best express [00:23:00] the color, you know, the designer, um, the fabrics, uh, it's. It's all about the detail.

Um, and then, then there's the reality filter, um, which is okay, now you know, okay, we've come up with this design. Or maybe someone's come to me and said, we wanna make this room red. Um, which. Uh, shockingly happens a lot. Um, but, like what's the space potential, right? Is there rigging?

Is there power? Right? What are the limits, right? Because that's gonna impact the equipment that I'm choosing, right? That's gonna, uh, impact what I'm able to do. Um, I also, you know, time, I, I wanna understand the time constraints because without understanding all these, like different elements, how can I provide a design that's

able to be done. And then there's the budget, right? Sure. I mean, we all want the budget to [00:24:00] be a function of the vision. Um, but a lot of times it ends up being the driving motivator. Um, and then that's when creative problem solving comes in. And I do a lot of that. No, I, we all do. I, I wish, you know, clients would think about lighting design.

Earlier, like you, I mean, we try to push it in as much as we can, but you know, it's, it's on that budget line item where unfortunately people don't look at it because they can't always see it. They can't touch it, they can't feel it. Um, it's, I don't say it's an afterthought, um, but it is, it is a little later in the process, particularly if we're trying to sell something in a, an idea.

And that's why you're gonna see the rendering first. 'cause clients won't agree until they see a rendering. Right. Or a drawing. Right. Fine. We'll, we'll give it to you. Clearly it's not lit. It's, but it always has to look good on paper. Then we'd be coming to you and say, Hey, can you light this amazingly? We did a project, uh, [00:25:00] last year in which lighting should have been a higher priority on our list, and this year we're looking at that, bringing that priority to the top because it really was all about lighting.

 We didn't have a line item because it was not in the budget. Don't just get me lights from a lighting supplier. And you know, a lot of the, let's say venues say, well, I got a lighting guy or a power guy, and they just bring some lights so they rent it.

It's not the same. I think people don't understand that. No, I wholeheartedly agree. I, you know, I think that there's. A kind of missing education, um, point that about lighting and that, like a lighting vendor is much different than a lighting designer. And I do for a lot of my clients, um, end up providing lighting production, so my crew and my gear, but I always tell them, I'm your designer first.

I'm, you know, I'm coming at it from. You know, the [00:26:00] fundamentals of design and looking at balance and color and, and, and I'm also your insurance policy. You know, I'm making sure that what you are pitching to your client is achievable. Um, and not just, Hey, I got some gear in my truck, and like, you know, this is what you're going to get.

And it may or may not like look like what you told the client. Right. Um, and look. I love renderings. They're really effective communication tool. I just wish lighting designers, myself included, were involved earlier in those processes. Because I work with amazing creative directors. I work with very talented people.

A lot of times though, they're looking at it from the lens of what. Does the space look like and how can I create that space with not the fundamental understanding of lighting and renderings just allow you to plop a light anywhere you want, and without shadows and [00:27:00] without some of the realities and clients, you know, it sets the client expectation and then when they come into the room and they're like, huh, why doesn't it look like the rendering?

You know, I, I have to work backwards and try to figure out like how do I, how do I make this look like the rendering when there isn't the reality, um, and the physics to make that happen? Right. Right, right. 'cause when you're doing the rendering, you know, you just, you're doing whatever you can to make it look.

Uh, sexy. Uh, so exactly. I guess that's the word. And, and it, you're right, it's not based in reality. You know, put a sun over here. I'm like, well, that we're not renting the sun, but there are those presets in rendering that say, add a sun. Uh, well, there's no window, there's no sun, and we gotta recreate that.

So, um. Looking back in your career as, as a designer, you know, what do you wish you would have known, then that you know now? Um, I think [00:28:00] that as a designer you really need to stand up for what the elements are. You need to be successful. Mm-hmm. You know, I think when I was younger and I thought being collaborative meant, you know.

A little more go with the flow. Right? Um, and that, you know. I, I think as a designer to be successful you have to figure out what skills you don't have and what skills you need support on. Um, you know, for me, I'm not, I'm a programmer sometimes, but you know, if we're doing. A full out rock and roll experience.

Uh, I need a programmer to support me. Right? Um, and so having sort of the ability to stand up for what you need, it might be, Hey, I need more time to get to where, you know, we wanna be, or I know that you want to use this in-house vendor, but they can't supply the equipment we need to [00:29:00] create these really cool effects.

Um, or, you know. The, the budget sometimes, you know, pushing back on the budget and saying like, I know you want X, but to get XI need, you know, twice the budget, or we need to go back and redesign. And I, I think it's learning to have a voice and, and, and standing up for these are the things that I need to make this a successful experience.

Yeah. And I think when you're starting out, you know, you, you're afraid to say that, you know, you think, I just need the job, I'm just gonna do what I need to do. And then it doesn't go right and it's like they're gonna blame somebody, you know? And you realize, wow, if I would've stood up for myself, I knew better.

I think you, and it's like, now you can say, Hey, based on experince, I've done this before. I see this and I'm gonna. Stick to my guns on this decision, which I think you get from experience, um, that confidence as a designer.

For sure. Had only done a dozen corporate [00:30:00] meetings at the time. Uh, the technical director. Had a local vendor and that local vendor was gonna provide the programmer, and that pro programmer was like, oh, I'm really like, you know, one of three people who've used this console before.

It is a new thing called the Grand Ma, which is now, you know, you ubiquitous with, um, like corporate meetings and concerts and, um. And I said, yeah, sounds great. Even though I didn't know the console and I didn't know how it worked, but I thought, okay, sure. Um, and it ended up that that programmer had a family emergency and we had a substitute programmer and things did not go well.

Uh, and you know, in retrospect I look back and the, we ended the programmer accidentally dumped the lights. On stage so that the CEO was standing in the dark. Oh no. And I really, you know, I looked back at that and I think, man, if I just, I, at the [00:31:00] time I was like, this felt like a bit dangerous to try something new like this out with a, in a environment that I didn't know.

But I was like, well, you know, this is just what everyone else wants to do and I wish I had stood up. I don't think I've ever worked with that client again. Right, exactly. No, I, I know the feeling. I, even for us, uh, I like to work with the same people a lot. And like you were saying, you, you can track your career back to, , a handful of people.

I, same thing with us. I mean, there's people from, I was talking to a, a scenic builder, a fabricator. We, we were talking, he's like, well, we've worked together 25 years 

 And I know this person and I trust this person, um, immensely, you know, and, I will try to get as many of people and things that I'm familiar with and they may not be the latest technology. But at least you know it works. And then try to introduce [00:32:00] some new things.

So you have to keep growing. Um, but you can't have everything new all at once. Everybody's like, well, try this and try it. I was like, well, hold on, hold on. Let's, let's do what we do best. You've hired us for that, or let's, let's create that. But like even ai, I am like, we're going to, we're going to ease into it.

Try it. Try a little bit here. I'm not designing an entire show around ai. It's not gonna work. I mean, it could work, but I'm not, we're not there yet. And anybody who says they're doing that is really not servicing you correctly. Yeah. It's a balance. It's a balance between doing what you know and pushing your limits, pushing the limits of the event, um, pushing your client's limits to kind of think out of the box.

Mm-hmm. Do something unexpected. Right. Okay. Now is there any project that you find most memorable or you're like, that was the, be one of the top ones that I've done. I'm really proud of that one above all else for sure. And it was a project I did with my [00:33:00] heart, in my hand or in my mouth, that, um, as the expression goes, uh.

I was brought onto a project, it was the 10th anniversary of a company and uh, it was in a ski resort in Utah and the project was a combination of meetings and dinners, which no problem, I can do that. Um, and so. The first evening, the participants start at a meeting in the hotel and then they walk down the side of the ski slope to the base lodge to have the dinner.

And I somewhat flippantly said to the producer, I'm like, Hey, wouldn't it be amazing if we did something really unexpected on the side of the mountain with lighting? Yeah. And she was like. That sounds cool. And that night we had dinner with the end client and she pitched this idea and they were like, that sounds great to it.

And I was like, you're like, uh oh. Oh wow. Okay. Um, [00:34:00] so yeah, we had about a month to come up with what is this happening on the side of the mountain and it. Essentially was their welcome moment, um, to invite all of the guests and to sort of get them excited Yeah. About what they were about to experience for the next couple of days and like who this company was.

Um, and so it was inspired by the CEO's end of the year letter, um, and he, his want to connect people in the spheres that this company is working in. , and. I honestly took inspiration from what was on the mountain and in the center of the mountain is this big cluster of aspen trees. I don't know if you know much about aspen trees, but their roots are all interconnected together.

Underneath that, they found like groves of them all share identical DNA, and it makes 'em like super fire resistant and [00:35:00] resistant to disease. They're like this living, breathing. Colony, um, of interconnectedness. And I'm like, well, what better metaphor for, um, this company that's talking about connectivity?

Um, and so we ended up building this laser, uh, light show for this side of the mountain. I had a friend who helped me design this custom LED, um, substrate that we covered the mountain with. Um, and it. It, it was quite a ride. I mean, wow, working on a mountain is hard. It, it's way different than what I'd been used to.

I've worked in empty floor plates of buildings and ballrooms and vacant storefronts and you know, places that had ceilings and power and just the logistics. Nothing. Yeah. And this mountain's never closed during the sea ski season. So if people aren't skiing on it, they're [00:36:00] grooming it all night long and.

So we ended up having a total of 15 minutes to set up the event, run the show, and then strike it. Um, so we did kind of all a Super Bowl style, right? A lot of planning, a lot of planning, uh, a lot of practice. And then you add the logistics of snow freezing conditions and a not a slope that's meant for walking and dragging items on.

Uh, it, it really took. A whole team to do. It was pretty amazing. Right? And it's, and it's a one time, once in a lifetime thing. 'cause you can't, even if you had photos, which I'm sure you, you may, it's not going to show off exactly the experience that was there. Not at all. I mean, I have video of it and photos.

It just, it, you're right. It, it is this, once in a lifetime experience, you're there, you see it. And if you don't, you don't get the same feeling, but [00:37:00] it. It was amazing and it really invigorated me and made me realize, I mean this happened sort of close to coming out of Covid, right? That like, I love telling stories and that's what I do best and that's what I learned in the theater.

Mm-hmm. Um, and that's what I apply to everything that I do is like, what is the story we're telling? And I just constantly go back to that. Um, you know, sometimes the story is simple and sometimes it's more complex. Right. I love that. Um, wow, amazing. So I'm sure it was incredible. I could, I have this image in my head and it probably was probably beyond that, and you probably see it from a distance, right?

As you're like, driving up or something and see this amazing light. Oh yeah. So, you know, it was for this select group of people that were at the conference, but the on the mount side, there were. [00:38:00] Apartments and hotels and um, and the nights we were able to test it, I mean, we had a limited minute amount of testing time because.

You can't shoot lasers. Um, at, well, the lasers we were using were not for shooting at people. And so while they're grooming the mountain, we couldn't do any work. Mm-hmm. Um, but we did, the groomers were so excited about what we were doing that when they would take their breaks, they would make them a little extra long so that we could have a little more working time.

And people would come by and see it and they're like, oh my gosh, we're so excited. And, you know, we live a couple of. You know, uh, blocks, you know, New York being over, but we could see, um, so yeah, it did it. I mean, you put something on a side of a mountain, you're gonna see Yeah, white right in the snow. Wow.

I can, can't even imagine what this might look like. All right. So, um, is there any advice you would give somebody who wanted to be a [00:39:00] lighting designer like yourself? Yeah, be curious, just ex like explore all the facets of lighting. , I think what's made me a great lighting designer is not just theater.

Mm-hmm. Um, it, it's doing corporate, it's doing, I worked in tainment. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, museums. Uh, lighting sculptures. Uh, I think just try it out. Don't, you know? And go, if you wanna go back to theater, go back to theater, right? I mean, I still do theater. Um, I'm gonna do a regional show, uh, not too long from now.

Uh, it makes you a better designer. Mm-hmm. And you know, the more you know, the more tools you have in your tool bag, the better you are. Yeah, that makes sense. If you're lighting the side of a mountain, you can definitely light a theater. Right. Yeah, they're totally different. But it, but you learn, right? You learn, but you learn.

You're like, wow. Because you're, you're, you're taking the, the [00:40:00] two feet off of each other in many ways. Yeah, exactly. Wow, this is amazing. So, um, how can people follow you if they want to see your work? Oh, I do all the socials. So you, I have an Instagram ld. I'm on LinkedIn. Uh, I have a website. Uh. Which is thon ld.com.

I think that covers most of them. Okay. And we'll put all those in the notes. Well, I want to thank you so much for doing this. Um, I have two screens here. I'm looking at your, your work and just, I'm fascinated by all the different work you have here and the y variety of, of stuff. So if you go on her site, you'll see, you know, from the corporate stuff to the theatrical to the tv and you can see this huge range of, of.

Everything from LEDs to lasers to some cool stuff here. So definitely check it out. Um, Pamela, thank you for doing this. Um, I really appreciate it. No, thank you, mark. I I really [00:41:00] appreciate, you know, talking to you and, you know, sharing our experiences. It's amazing how many people I work with have started in the theater and we've just sort of branched out and it Yeah, I think so much.

I think that theater is an amazing foundation for any direction you go in. Agreed. I think people, if you have a theater background, and it's not just the creativity part, it's, it's also the, the discipline that you learn in the theater too, translates over into events and the timing and all of that kind of stuff that, you know, really help a lot.

Agreed. Well, thanks Pam. I'll talk to you later. Bye. Sounds good. Thanks Mark. [00:42:00]