Katie The Traveling Lactation Consultant
Katie The Traveling Lactation Consultant
Ep 96 Diet & Breastfeeding with Allegra Gast
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Pregnancy and postpartum nutrition are not just helpful but essential to milk supply. Thyroid issues, PCOs, insulin resistance, gut microbiome dysfunction all cause problems in milk supply and nutritional status. Learn how working with an IBCLC RD can help to uncover those issues and get parental health, nutrition and milk supply on the right track.
Podcast Guest: Allegra Gast is a functional registered dietitian and international board certified lactation consultant passionate about helping families navigate both their postpartum health and their breastfeeding journeys. Allegra offers virtual nutrition and breastfeeding consults for families all around the world. She started her business, Aloha Nutrition, when she lived in Hawaii but currently resides in Texas with her husband, and 4 children including twins.
Podcast Host: Katie Oshita, RN, BSN, IBCLC has over 25 years of experience working in Maternal-Infant Medicine. While Katie sees clients locally in western WA, Katie is also a telehealth lactation consultant believing that clients anywhere in the world deserve the best care possible for their needs. Being an expert on TOTs, Katie helps families everywhere navigate breastfeeding struggles, especially when related to tongue tie or low supply. Katie is also passionate about finding the root cause of symptoms, using Functional Medicine practices to help client not just survive, but truly thrive. Email katie@cuddlesandmilk.com or www.cuddlesandmilk.com
Disclaimer, this content is meant for information only and not as a diagnosis or medical treatment for any condition. If you or a loved one needs help, please seek out a qualified medical professional for assistance. Welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Katie Oshta, BSN, RN, IBC L C, and Infant Feeding Specialist. Quench your thirst for knowledge and travel with me across the nation to discover, learn, collaborate, and better serve clients from all over the globe. Let's ride and thrive together. So I want to start right off with why why do you focus on maternal nutrition? Like, why do we even go there? Why is it important? I mean, moms are making milk, right? Like, how does this matter?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I mean, we're creating breast milk. We're creating the milk. Why do we think that our health doesn't matter when it comes to that? And we know that blood sugar regulation matters, thyroid health matters. Like all of this goes into making adequate milk supply, um, having the letdown. Um, we know more about cows. I always say that we know about dairy cows more than we know about human lactation. And I actually follow a couple dairy farmers on Instagram and I learned so much from them. Like they have a huge emphasis on nutrition, making sure that their cows are getting enough calories, they are getting enough minerals, they give them mineral sticks, they put mineral in their water, they give them electrolytes. Like they really know the importance of good nutrition for their dairy cows to provide enough cow's milk. And so we can learn a lot from dairy cows. Obviously, we're not cows, but we are mammals, and so there's a big overlap. Um, but there's a lot of money in the dairy industry as opposed to with human lactation. And really, what we do know a lot of it is funded by formula companies because they want to make their formula very similar to breast milk. So the research that we have on breast milk, we know that there's a huge relationship between mom's health, you know, her mineral status, if she's getting enough of the nutrients, that's going to enhance the nutrients in breast milk, which then will benefit baby. Um, we know about gut health, how mom's gut health mimics baby's gut. Um, so it's really important to support moms, um, support parents in their nutrition journeys, making sure that they're getting enough um nutrients, getting enough calories. And then just with mental health, there's a huge relationship between nutrition and mental health. So if mom is not in a good place, if she's experiencing a lot of mental health, mood disorders, that's gonna affect breastfeeding. You know, that's gonna affect her confidence. It's gonna affect um, you know, her ability because she's um, you know, just not in a good place. She might be doubting her milk supply, she might be doubting whether she's a good mom, a good parent. Whereas when we can really support parents, support their mental health, they have better breastfeeding outcomes. I mean, I know so much goes into mental health. It's not just nutrition, but nutrition does have a huge impact. And it is the one thing that we can control. You know, we can encourage moms to get more vitamin D, to get more omega-3 fatty acids, to get more selenium and iodine. These things can positively impact mental health. Um, so that's kind of where I really want to support families and support parents and really optimize their health because then they have a better breastfeeding journey. Um, their milk supply is better because you know, we're supporting their metabolism, we're supporting blood sugar regulation. Um, a huge percentage of people have insulin resistance. And we know that insulin resistance has a negative effect on breastfeeding, milk supply.
SPEAKER_03Um, so yeah, that's kind of your breasts need to be insulin sensitive. You know, that's that's a big part of milk creation. And so when we're insulin resistant, it's so much harder to make milk. And like you said, it's so, so common right now. And I feel like the trifecta that I see a lot is hypothyroid, PCOS, and insulin resistant, right? You know, people will ask me, they would be like, well, which came first? I'm like, I don't really know. It seems like this like massive snowball that just kind of grew together. Um, but they all seem to somehow play off of each other, and it's very common to see appliance with them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I feel like a lot of parents get dismissed with the low milk supply, like, oh, it's very uncommon. It's probably not low milk supply, or um, you know, it's kind of your fault for low milk supply. And uh obviously there are so many things that go into it. There's the breastfeeding side, is baby transferring milk? Does baby have oral restrictions? Is mom using the right flange size? But also how is her metabolism? And kind of like that insulin resistance, how is her thyroid? Um, and so really supporting that, supporting their bodies to um produce breast milk.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I feel like too often people are also just told, well, you know, sometimes people just can't make milk. It's like, okay, well, that's true. There there have been humans throughout time that just couldn't make milk. Um, and we don't always know why, even if they had really great support and everything else. But at the rate that people are being told this, it's amazing that the human race exists. I'm like, if we all had this much trouble 200 years ago, we wouldn't be here today. Like it wouldn't be possible, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I always say that if breastfeeding was easy, I wouldn't have a job.
SPEAKER_03And I think that it's important to realize too that there are things that may be natural but not easy, right? Um, just like childbirth, very natural. We're meant to do it, we're mammals, but that doesn't make it easy. They call it labor for a reason. Yeah. And the whole concept that we're just gonna be able to easily make milk, I think, especially in this country in this day and age, with the amount of things kind of going into our health, everything from our toxic load from you know, fluoride in the water to VOCs to, you know, really horrible air quality, you know, for some places every year with wildfires, things like this. And then you add in mineral depletion in our foods and all of these other, you know, chronic stress. People are under such chronic stress all the time that it takes a toll on your body.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, all the heat. And they don't have much support. So yeah, I feel like we're kind of doing it to ourselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's really sad, but it's we have a culture of um stuff, like products as opposed to support. You know, when a somebody has a new baby, you, you know, they get things, they get a stroller, they get a snoo that will hold the baby so they don't have to, right? Um, so they can sleep because they need to go back to work. I mean, you get things. Nobody's giving, you know, a doula to come, or, you know, a lactation consultant or a public floor therapist, or just someone to come and walk your dog, or bring you groceries once a week, or things like that. Like every I I also hear from clients all the time, and I remember this with my kids, that people did show up. Our friends and family did show up in the first like week or two, but then everyone was gone. And I was still left with this baby, and my husband was back to work because you know, we didn't have real good paternity leave, and everything else dried up, and it was just like, oh my gosh, you know, that this is just me now, and I'm you know, two weeks post-C suction. Like, it's a lot, it's a lot on these families, and they're not getting support, and so yeah, their nutrition and their health takes a dive.
SPEAKER_02Yep, 100%. Yeah, totally agree with you.
SPEAKER_03So, what do you do with clients when you're looking at like who usually what is your typical client? Are they coming to you more for nutrition or are they coming to you more for lactation and then realizing that nutrition plays a part?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's usually that approach. So they're coming to us for lactation help. And then I always talk about nutrition in our conversations, um, just because I want to make sure that our moms are taking care of themselves. They're eating. Did you eat breakfast today? Did you um, you know, get a shower? Did you go poop today? You know, like just checking in on them. And so we always talk about nutrition, and oftentimes they'll then lead to, oh, I'm having a lot of digestive issues, or my baby's having a lot of digestive issues, or my baby's not pooping every day. Um, and then I kind of go into their health. Are you pooping every day? How's your gut health? How's your digestion? Um, so yeah, I had a mom not too long ago who came to us because her baby um had a lot of just digestive issues, was always kind of fussy at the breast, and baby had a tongue tie release, they did body work, they did all the things, and mom was like, Well, maybe it is what I'm eating. And I was started talking to mom about her gut health, and she decided um, because we do lab testing in our practice as dietitians, we're allowed to. So, um, and I guess with IBCLC depends what other credential you have. But I ordered a stool test for her, which takes a look at gut health. It looks at good, bad gut bacteria, it looks at any pathogens, parasites, worms, it looks at digestive enzymes, like it looks at a bunch of things. And what we found was she um had H. pylori, which is a stomach pathogen, which can cause low stomach acid, which can contribute to like bloating and not digesting food adequately. Um, and then she also had a lot of bad gut bacteria, and so we call it dysbiosis. There was the imbalance of good and bad gut bacteria. She also was not making adequate um elastase, which is the pancreatic enzymes. So, like there was so much going on with her digestion. And we know that breast milk is made from the bloodstream. You know, what is getting into the blood is the components of the digestive tract. If she does not have, you know, if she has like quote unquote leaky gut, a lot of those food particles are gonna get into her bloodstream, cause more inflammation for her as well as for baby. And so she actually, I gave her care plan. We really focused on adding things in, adding minerals, adding um biofilm disruptor type foods to help get rid of the bad gut bacteria. So that's things like apple cider vinegar, ginger, um, onions, garlic, you know, a lot of food-based items. And then I reached out a couple months after that, um, actually, probably even just a couple weeks, and she said she noticed a huge improvement for herself as well as her baby. It didn't completely heal everything because part of like the protocol is doing a killing protocol to get rid of the H. pylori. And sometimes I'm a little hesitant doing that while they're actively breastfeeding. Um, so that was something she still needed to address. But just by the diet changes, she noticed huge improvements for herself and her baby. So I always say, heal mom, heal baby, when we can support mom, support her nutrition, adding things, supporting her digestion, um, things improve. And then, you know, if we see people for low milk supply, we want to dig deeper. Why do you have low milk supply? So we kind of already talked about like the insulin resistance and stuff. And so we can do lab testing on that. So, like this mom that came to us for low milk supply, we addressed the lactation side. How is baby transferring? Are you doing compressions? Are you removing milk frequently? Um, do you have night feeds? You know, so always addressing the breastfeeding side. But then with the nutrition and her health, we did a um a full thyroid panel. So we want did not just TSH, but also like T3, T4, reverse T3. Um, and then we also looked at her fasting glucose as well as insulin. So a lot of times doctors will just do A1C or just like a fasting glucose, but they don't look at insulin. And this mom had beautiful A1C. It was a five, it was great. Um, but her insulin was double the amount what it should be. And so this is a great sign of insulin resistance. She is requiring more insulin to manage her glucose, you know, the foods that she's eating. And because breastfeeding requires you to be insulin sensitive, if she has this insulin resistance, it's going to affect her milk supply. Um, and so we really worked on, you know, balancing her blood sugar dysregulation or insulin resistance. We added some supplements like inocetyl, making sure she's getting enough protein, um, getting minerals that support glucose metabolism. And she did notice an increase in her milk supply. She was pretty, you know, she was like two, three months postpartum. So it's really hard at that point to just all of a sudden get back to exclusively breastfeeding. I mean, she was only making like five ounces in a day. So um at that point, she was like, you know, I this is too much for me to keep pumping and keep nursing when baby's not getting enough and I'm already um formula feeding. So she did decide to just wean, um, but she felt so empowered because she knew why she had low milk supply. And even like with her thyroid, her TSH was way outside normal limits or optimal limits or the optimal range. And so um once she knew kind of why she had the low milk supply and just how to support her metabolic health, she felt empowered. And now she's actually really excited to get pregnant again and to implement a lot of these diet changes and really hone in on her body and supporting her metabolism. And I'm I would love to follow up with her and like, you know, whenever she gets pregnant and has her next baby to see how her milk supply is at that point.
SPEAKER_03Umil client that I've been working with that kind of went the same way, she did actually decide to stop breastfeeding because she was making probably four, three, four ounces a day. Um, but what as we went through all of this stuff and looked at her insulin resistance and her PCOS and looked at her thyroid, that she was totally fine, but was really not optimal. And more importantly, or equally as important when you pair it together, is she was symptomatic. And that's the part two that, you know, I feel like is missing in allopathic medicine is if you're just looking at these numbers and you're like, you have this huge range on TSH, which we know is not the best number to look at to begin with, because that's really coming from your pituitary, not your thyroid. But even then you're completely discounting the person in front of you who's saying, I have all these symptoms. I have a ton of fatigue and I, you know, my hair is dry and brittle, my skin is dry and brittle, I, you know, can't get going, I've gained weight, all of these things, and they get blown off. They're like, Well, you're just a busy mom, or well, you're just, you know, you just need a nap, or it's just that time of life for you in women. And I'm like, no, no, these are symptoms, these are actual symptoms. But she felt really empowered and it started working with a functional med and working towards get taking care of her own health. And she wasn't planning on any more kids, which is totally fine because we did talk about, you know, potential for supply later. And I said, you know what, focus on feeling good and be feeling the best you can for you and being an active parent for your child and being here. Like this is your, this is your warning. This is your again a yellow light of like, if you continue on this path, this is where you're looking at going. We want to prevent you from becoming diabetic and getting sicker and everything else, and you want to feel good. Well, in order to do that, we have to heed those yellow lights. Like we have to look at those and stop and say, okay, what's going on with our body? Why isn't it functioning optimally?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so seeing clients like that and being able to help direct them and get them support and get started on in a basic thing, basic things can make a difference. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I love what you're saying. Um, I feel like we just assume or think that because now you're a new parent that you have to be exhaustive, you have brain fog all the time, like you're just in the mundane, like day after day. And I'm like, no, you can feel good. I mean, I have four, five and under. I have twins. I am 11 months postpartum at the time of this recording, and I feel good. You know, sure, I'm sleepy, my babies are teething, but you don't have to feel like you got hit by a bus, you know, really working on foundations. Are you eating? Are you getting enough protein? Are you focusing on quality sleep? So, yes, even I mean, I have two babies that are waking up frequently, but I focus on quality sleep so that the sleep that I do get is quality. Um, so yeah, that's something I really preach all the time is like just because you're a mom doesn't feel doesn't mean you have to feel like crap, you know, like you can't feel good postpartum.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think focusing on some of these basic things like the minerals. Minerals are really lacking in our food, even when you're buying organic and everything else. It's just the soil is lacking in nutrition that used to be there. Now, buying from really small farms and buying local and stuff like that, you can sometimes get better, you know, better quality ingredients too. Um, but it's something we just have to deal with at this point. And, you know, maybe the food will have enough once your body gets caught up. Who knows? But our bodies are so depleted that it's like we cannot work without minerals. Yeah, this just doesn't happen. Our body, magnesium is needed for over 300 processes in our body. Like, how is it supposed to function on a daily basis when we are depleted of magnesium, which is so common?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I don't think we realize how demanding pregnancy and breastfeeding is on the body. Like you're creating a human being postpartum, breastfeeding. Yeah. I mean, they're taking your nutrients. And so if you're not repleting, if you're not feeling up getting those minerals, then it will take a toll on you, you know, as a parent. And I think that's why we see so many people postpartum develop like postpartum thyroiditis, um, autoimmune issues, insulin resistance, like we need minerals. I I like to say that minerals are our body's factory workers. Like you say, we have, I mean, just magnesium has over 300 different body functions. You know, we have thousands of different things that happen in our body. And if we don't have these factory workers, these minerals, we're not gonna function optimally. We're gonna feel sluggish, we're gonna feel tired, we're gonna, you know, develop more health complications. So, yeah, this this mineral repletion is a huge emphasis that I try to breach.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I had a client recently, I'm actually seeing her today, and I'm really excited. Our last two visits have been so vastly different, and she's doing so well. Um, so I can't wait to see how she's doing today. But when I first met her, she was three months postpartum and was down to about six or seven foods. And baby had been having digestive issues, you know, blood in the stool, mucusy stool, really uncomfortable, very fussy, and um had already worked through with another IBCLC uh tongue tie and you know, had gotten oral function to a good place and had had skilled body work and all of those things, and nothing was improving with the dietary stuff, right? With the like the GI and all of that. And she's like, I've done everything everyone said, I've pulled out all these foods, I'm down to like nothing, and nothing is getting better. And I was like, Well, the first thing I want to do is add in foods. And she's like, You can't. Foods are scary. And I'm like, I get it, but your body can't work without foods. And one of the first things I usually do is a mineral, um, like a stock or a broth, either way you want to call it. Um, and a lot of times we'll do it without meat, without any bones, right? Um, especially if I have someone who seems to be reacting to like a lot of high histamine foods. But if not, or if the parent really feels like that's important to them, fine, we'll do a bone broth. Like the either way is great, but we add a lot of nutrients to it. We add a lot of veggies, we add um, I usually do dehydrated mushrooms, but you can do fresh mushrooms, like either way. It just depends upon, you know, what you have on hand. Um, and I'll usually have them add some form of like a combu or some seaweed for that iodine and really like bump it up, right? And then use it all the time. You know, and these are things that I also live, so I can tell clients I'm like, I make stock almost every Sunday. And last night I cooked, we're gluten-free, so I cooked a gluten-free pasta um in stock instead of in water. And when I make rice, it gets cooked in stock. And when I make, you know, um, if I make a real kind of neutral stock, sometimes I'll put that in smoothies, like I'll freeze it and put it into a smoothie. But I'm using stock for soup and for pasta and for rice and for, you know, a little beverage here and there, like anything I can do. My my kids were complaining to me the other day. My teens are like, our rice isn't white anymore, mom. Always say, and I'm like, Yep, you'll survive. You're fine. I'm like, it's more nutritious, it's white.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we do the same. Use stock or bone broth a lot. Yeah, we we buy. Buy whole chickens a lot, it's just so much more economical, too. It's great for leftovers. I encourage a lot of families to do it because you can you just put it in the oven and then um come back like an hour and a half, two hours later, and then you've got dinner then, and then you can use uh the carcass and make bone broth. And so we do that probably weekly, and it's just so good for you. It's just a super easy way to get minerals. So I love that you're doing that too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, actually, this last year I've gone through huge food journeys on my own, and at one point was vegan and then um pescatarian, and then last year, my um oldest who's 16 now developed from peanut allergy to soy to all legumes. So since we lost legumes, we really couldn't be any sort of vegetarian or pescatarian anymore. Or like we had to bring in meat because we lost almost all plant protein. We can eat quinoa and hemp hearts, which we do, but I'm like, you can't eat those every meal. Yeah. So we found, I found a local farmer and we do pig, so we do pork, um, and I'll get half a hog, and it's pasture local raised, pasture-raised meat that's organic and so much cleaner than what you could get in the stores. It's crazy. And I tell clients too, I'm like, look in your area. Things like this are so much more affordable. Like, it's like six dollars a pound when I buy it that way. Like, try to buy organic so much cheaper. Right. It's like impossible to buy organic meat for $6 a pound. But it works out well and it's supporting a small farmer, and I'm getting more nutritious food. I wish chickens were easier. Um, I do have there's one person near us that will, you know, two or three times a year have chicken, but it's really, from what I understand from farmers, it's more expensive to do a small animal like that. You can't take it somewhere to be butchered, you have to do it yourself. And so there's a lot more that goes into it. Um, and so we don't tend to eat a lot of chicken because it's harder um to source locally. Um, I wish I could eat beef, but it doesn't do well with me. So we don't do that. But you know, finding local sources like that are not just cheaper in the long run and how much you're spending on the meat and um good for the farmer, but it's better quality. It's healthier meat. Like the pork has less of the bad fat and more of the good fats for us. Like it is healthier food when the animal is raised healthy.
SPEAKER_02So it applies to humans as well as animals.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And I think that's one of the things I try to tell people too, though, is that there are ways of getting better quality food cheaper. And now I'm not saying it's going to be the cheapest thing out there. I'm not saying it's the cheapest way to eat, definitely, but there are ways where it doesn't have to be going to Whole Foods and buying something at, you know, $15, $20 a pound. Like there are ways of doing it where, especially when you plan ahead and do stuff like that, you know, and like you and I said, you know, using all of that. You know, I I remember my grandmother was raised in the depression era in Montana. And so she's like, we never wasted anything. Like you saved the onion skip scraps and you saved the bones pieces and you just saved everything.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03You know, and I think that there's ways of doing that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so true. I even encourage just like adding, um, like if they're doing soups and stews, like adding more beans or the sauces, even like spaghetti sauce when you're making spaghetti or chili to help stretch it so that you have, you know, double batches, triple batches, you have leftovers. I'm a huge fan of making freezer meals, you know, whatever you may, double, triple, quadruple portions and freeze it. Cause let's be honest, we don't always feel like cooking every night. Your baby might have a witching hour, which was in our case, and I wasn't really able to make dinner, but I had a huge freezer stash that I stopped up um, you know, in my third trimester of pregnancy. And um, you know, people will buy deep freezers for their breast milk. And I'm like, no, you do not need to save this much breast milk. Like, buy a freezer for you, for your mom, for your food.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03So that you can actually have time to deal with those babies and to take care of them and to take care of yourself and have food prepared that's nutritious and takes care of you. But with that client, what we did was we added back in food. We started with the broth. And at first, she's she's like, Well, I'll just do carrots and water. And I'm like, that's not gonna cut it. We're gonna make a real brothier. Yeah. And I was like, the likelihood that you're gonna have a reaction to like, you know, the onions and the carrots and things and the mushrooms is small. Let's go ahead and start with everything and see. And within two weeks of doing the broth daily and a couple of other changes that we did and bringing in more, you know, changing a few things, she had brought in significant amount of food. And each the last time I saw her had brought in even more, had been bringing in more food, had like more different proteins now, and had explored some things she hadn't thought of before. Like she went and got lamb and bison at the farmer's market. And she's like, Those seem like, you know, better protein traces. And I was like, Those are great protein traces. Like, you're not gonna get the same quality in a meat that is mass-produced when you know. I mean, even a good organic beef at the store is not gonna be the same as a local organic beef, right? Like it's what they're putting into it isn't the same. Yeah. And because you can still feed an animal all organic corn and soy. Absolutely. That's not necessarily gonna do the same as having a grass-fed pasture-raised beef. You know, it's a different kind of thing. Um, but yeah, it was it was amazing. And I think once she started seeing some successes, this is what I see with clients, is you just have to get like two or three little wins, and then it starts to grow and their confidence happens and all the physical stuff too, right? Like they start to actually feel better. And then when you feel better, you have the ability to deal with these things and to think about, you know, how to make a meal and how to add in foods and all of these things, but it was just really growing each time, and she looked so good. Like had finally started putting back on some weight because she had lost a ton of weight postpartum. And I was like, this is she was just really the first time I saw her, was really, really depleted and you know, exhausted and just really struggling to make it through the day. And that took a toll on mental health as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like we already kind of talked about that too. It all circles together. And I think it's important to realize and to discuss the fact that I'm not saying that nutrition is going to cure all mental health. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it should be our first line of defense, it should be the thing that we rule out. You know, do we have something bigger to deal with? Or is it just that you're really depleted in nutrients? And even if you have something bigger to deal with, you still might be able to deal with that better if you have nutrients on board. Like there's no bad time to have nutrients on board, right? There's no bad time to feel nourished and to feel rested and to feel capable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yes, 100%. And we've worked with even just on the nutrition side, with um, like I just offboarded, graduated a 24-year-old who had a lot of digestive issues, was constantly tired, just like not feeling well. She's like, I'm worse than you know, my mom who had just seven kids. And I was like, Yeah, you're 24. You should not be feeling this way. And we dug deeper and she had things that popped up in her lab results, and she's feeling great now. She's graduating, I think, next week. And yeah, she's like, it's just amazing what nutrition and just lifestyle support and like the quality food that you're eating, like all that does matter.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And I think really this is a time when people don't look at it in terms of other providers because everyone's afraid to do anything to someone who's pregnant or breastfeeding. It's like they're just kind of like their standard answer postpartum with medications is the whole like pump and dump thing, right? Like they're just afraid to do anything, and there's plenty of wrong with that. But it's just there's a lot we can do. And nutrition is not, this is not a risky intervention. I mean, it's it's hard to call it an intervention at all. This is this is life, but we all need nutrition to function, but we don't all need a pharmaceutical, but we all need nutrition. Like that's a basic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so I don't always understand the hesitance there with other providers. And I'm like, we nutrition is pretty basic. We need to do this. But I think part of it is that a lot of providers are just not educated on nutrition, right? There's very little nutrition education that goes into nursing school because I went to nursing school or medical school or even in lactation in general, like it's not something we focus on.
SPEAKER_02And that's where I wish they would refer out, like, hey, this isn't my specialty, but let me refer you to this dietitian or someone that knows a little bit more about nutrition. So yeah, even a lactation consultant, like, hey, I don't know much about you know, this with breastfeeding. Is it compatible? But here's a referral list, you know.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I say all the time that I don't need to be an expert on everything. Like, you have twins. I am not a twin parent. I have probably supported, I don't know, five or six twins. Like, it's just not my thing. And if someone were to reach out to me, I'd be like, I can see you. I'm never gonna tell someone, like, no, no, I don't want to see you. But I also am more than happy to help to find you someone who's really good at what this is and who can really offer you a lot more knowledge than I can. Same thing with like inducing lactation. I just have very rarely done it. And I've had a couple and I find it really interesting. And I had one where I was like, I'm more than happy to help you find someone and she really wanted to work with me, partly because I could fill her insurance and the other provider couldn't. And so I paid the other provider to help coach me as to how to do it. So I can learn, right? And so there are options and ways, but we don't have to be an expert at everything. You know, I just added screening questions to my intake on pelvic floor and urinary health, but they're not for me. Like I'm not going to help you with your pelvic floor, but just like my screening questions on depression and anxiety, I'm not a mental health therapist. Like I'm doing it because in that postpartum period, I see a lot of these moms more than they see anybody else. There's times I'll work with someone weekly for a couple of months and they've seen their pediatrician maybe twice in that time, their OB once. So I kind of view part of my role as this screener who can also say to them, Hey, you know what? It's actually not normal that you're leaking urine. How about if I recommend a, you know, public floor therapist for you? Or I can send you a couple of referrals on, you know, someone who works with with a like a urologist, if that's what you need, like different things, but it's my it's it's kind of my privilege to be there with them at this time and to be able to see so much and for them to let us in to this vulnerable time. And I also want to respect that and say, look, these things aren't normal, and there's other people that can help. And that's all it takes is knowing, knowing our boundaries and what we know, and then referring out because I'm not gonna do everything, it's not possible. Yeah, yep, I know, right? Like if we could just and I feel like that with pediatricians too. If I could just get pediatricians to say, oh, the baby's not gaining, or oh, your nipples are in pain, how about a lactation consultant? This isn't something I've spent a lot of time learning about, you know.
SPEAKER_02Or just stop saying that's normal, or some people just can't produce enough, like you said, or just some babies cause cracked nipples and you just gotta push through it like no.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, so often the poop and the breathing are two things that are constantly I'm hearing, or like, no, that's normal. And then they're like, No, it's normal. My baby only poops once a week. And I'm like, actually not. And they're like, Well, I only poop once a week too, so it's just like me. And I'm like, okay, we have a lot to unpack here. Let's start with actually what's physiologically normal for a mammal and a human. Like, this is not normal. Just because this is what we have created and like focused on. And I think to be fair, sometimes I think providers just don't see normal anymore and they didn't learn it. And so, or they learned, but then they got out there and they started seeing so much of the abnormal that in their mind it was like, well, it can't be abnormal when it's you know 80% of the population. That must be the normal. These guys must just be really weird over here.
SPEAKER_02Common does not mean normal, so might be common, but it's not normal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I say that a lot too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And with the airway stuff, and I'm like, no, your baby should not snore. No, no, you should not snore either. No, you should not mouthbreed.
SPEAKER_02Like, yep. Like in our training, we don't get that. Like, I remember as a dietitian in our training, like, oh, some people just have low iron. Let's just give an iron supplement or, you know, whatever it is. And now I'm like, well, why do you have low iron? You're eating meat, you're eating the nutrients in diet, you're eating beans, like you're eating iron-rich foods. Why do you have low iron and it's often other things? Maybe low copper, low vitamin A. Um, maybe it's in the wrong place. You know, maybe you also have history of yeast infections that thrives on iron. So, you know, um, it's not just brushing it off saying, oh, just some people are more prone to that, or you know, more people are prone to claw ducts or mastitis. Like, no, what's going on? Why, why, why? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I tell people the whole root cause and like trying to go through and understand the root cause of things is like being a toddler. You just sit there and you ask why until you get down to the very center. I'm like, you just need to be really curious. We need to stop accepting the bodies or what just broken. They just don't work anymore. And I'm not talking about broken at like 70. I'm talking about, like you said, you saw someone who's 24. Like, this is not how our bodies are meant to function.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and it's true. I'm seeing more and more young people that are still really unhealthy and being told that they're fine.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. And Instagram they're cramping, heavy bleeding, like, uh-uh, that's also abnormal. It might be common, but not normal. Right.
SPEAKER_03But that's something that is exactly. I have two teenagers cycling and they're constantly told that's normal. And I'm like, no, no, please don't believe that. That is not normal. Right. And it's it's something we're one of my oldest and I both are getting period migraines. So we're still kind of working through our path on getting rid of them and we're progressing, not quite there yet, which is really annoying. But it's balancing hormones, right? And and I can't tell you how many people have told us, oh, well, I had migraines until menopause, or oh, I had migraines for like 10 years and they eventually go away. So don't worry about it. And I'm like, no, thank you. I'd rather not give up, you know, three days every month for the next 10 years being in excruciating pain, waiting for this magical day when they will go away. No, thank you. Yeah. Like I'll work on figuring it out now. But it's, I think the first step is accepting that these things aren't normal. You're right. Like we really have to, we have to change our culture to stop saying that things that are common are normal because they're not. And everything from, you know, watching a baby army crawl to not pooping to, you know, these parents who are getting no nutrition from their food and they because they can't absorb it. I mean, I had a client recently who was on um PPIs for 10 years. I'm like, you're not absorbing anything out of your food. You have no stomach acid.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm totally depleted, right? Depleted of B vitamins, severely, like all this type of stuff. And we're not really looking at that in medicine. We're not looking at that big picture and health. And functional medicine is a great option for some, but for a lot of people, it's still not very affordable. And, you know, it's just not possible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03There are some, there's some in the Seattle area. I'm about an hour north of Seattle. And so there are some in our area that do accept insurance, um, but not many. Um, most are still private pay. Like there's one I looked at recently for myself, and I was like, oh, it was seven, or it was like seven or eight hundred dollars the first visit and six hundred every visit afterwards. And I'm like, hmm, okay. Yeah. So not totally affordable and accessible, but there's lots of other options out there. Like naturopaths tend to be covered by insurance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_03You know, and they've been doing this work for a lot longer than functional medicine, is a fairly new specialty. Not that it's a bad thing, it's great. I love functional medicine, but there are other providers out there doing some of this work as well. And sometimes it's just finding that right fit for someone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I think we need to normalize getting a second opinion, getting a third opinion. Like just because that's your pediatrician doesn't mean you can't find. I mean, I guess it depends on insurance and your area. Maybe you are kind of a bounty to that particular provider, but a lot of times you can get a second opinion. So um, even for me, for lactation or nutrition, like if you don't feel comfortable with what I'm suggesting, or you don't say eye to eye necessarily, like they go get a second opinion. You know, that's okay.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. That's actually one of the things I tell people about naturopaths, is at least my experience in Washington with most insurances, is that a naturopath is viewed as a specialty, not a primary care. And most of them are still covered at pretty close to the same rate for people, but because they're not considered your primary care, you don't have to change and wait for a new month and change to see this new provider and then change to see another new provider. Like you can just go and see a different naturopath. And it's it doesn't have to be assigned to you the way a PCP does. So it has made it more accessible. Um, I have gone through a couple last year. I I started with one naturopath and was like, she was just kind of telling me all these things that were totally normal. And I'm like, nope, these are not totally normal. And so I found somebody else to work with, and it was really nice not to have to go through the hassle of like waiting and changing a primary care and dealing with all that. It was like, no, with most, at least the experience I've had in Washington with myself and with clients is that they're viewed as like a specialty. So you don't have to assign it, you can just make an appointment, and most insurances aren't requiring prior op or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. So in finding that fit, but I think accepting that it's not normal and pushing, you know. So, what are some of the other things you really like to tell new parents? What are some of the kind of like general things that you when we don't have a problem? What are things that you just kind of like to encourage new moms to do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just the foundations. Um, like we kind of talked earlier about minerals, pregnancy, breastfeeding is very demanding on the body. And nowadays we're seeing back-to-back pregnancies. And so you really have not even recovered from the first pregnancy before you're having the next pregnancy. Um, so a lot of health professionals, including myself, recommend waiting at least 18 months between pregnancies. But, you know, because we're getting older, a lot of people are doing fertility treatments, like they're having these closely spaced pregnancies. And so really focusing on nutrient repletion. So, in all my consults, everything I preach on my Instagram account, like all about, you know, getting enough protein. So, protein, people think it's just for muscle repair. Maybe you had a C-section, a piziotomy, tor, or just your um, you need muscle mass. But protein, amino acids is the foundations of making neurotransmitters, making digestive enzymes and just enzymes in the body. They also make immune, um, your immunoglobulins, you know, supporting your immune system. Um, there's so many things that protein does, those amino acids. And so I always talk about just making sure you're getting enough protein. I recommend at least 20 to 30 grams per meal, ideally at least 100. Obviously, it's gonna vary based off the individual, but just kind of a blanket statement. I usually say at least 100 um grams a day, making sure they're getting enough water, enough hydration. Are your cells nice and happy, nice and plump? Um, if you're just drinking all this water, you're just peeing it out if you're not getting those electrolytes. So even adding a pinch of salt into your water, like you don't have to go out, and I don't recommend like body armor and Gatorade and all these things. Like there's a lot of sugar, a lot of additives that we don't want. Um, but just making your own adrenal cocktail, mineral mocktail. Um, it's really just a source of, you know, water, maybe a splash of orange juice. Even then, if a lot of people have insulin resistance, I encourage more like a squeeze of lemon just for that vitamin C. And then add a pinch of um like cream of tartar for potassium. You could also use coconut water, you could also do account. aloe vera juice and then some salt. And that's a great, you know, DIY electrolyte drink. And that is going to help you stay hydrated. It's going to support those digestive enzymes and making stomach acid. And then I also talk a lot with parents about sleep, you know, making sure you're getting quality sleep, getting that magnesium, um, dimming blue lights at night. I mean, so many of us are on our phone scrolling, especially those midnight feeds and we're on Amazon. But, you know, if you can put your phone away and um try to focus on that quality sleep. And then yeah, just making sure that moms are taking care of themselves. I'm a huge fan of breath work, especially when you're doing skin to skin with baby, even if you're playing on the floor doing Legos with your toddler, just do some breath work, take some seat breaths. I feel like we've also normalized like mom rage and being just on edge all the time. But if you're hangry because you're not eating well, you're not taking deep breaths throughout the day, um, yeah, your nervous system is going to be dysregulated. And so really supporting your nervous system, part of supporting your nervous system is breathing, getting like deep breaths. And because of all a lot of us have you know poor airway flow or poor posture, you know, stuff like that, that we're not taking deep breaths. Yeah. And so really being mindful of that, um, balanced blood sugar. So, you know, to answer your question, I always talk about like protein and minerals, you know, even just taking a quality prenatal vitamin to help fill in the gaps, um, getting enough magnesium and especially with stress, you burn these minerals a lot faster. So not only are you is our soil nutrient depleted, um, like we talked about, but also burn our stress, our mineral burn is out the roof. And so kind of that double whammy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I love adrenal cocktails and like the little um kind of like a little pick you up kind of afternoon can be a good time for that too when someone really needs a little extra support. But getting that and kind of focusing on those basic nutrient things, I think really matter. One thing I talk about with clients too is I have a lot of clients who are neurodivergent and I'm like sometimes we have a hard time because I'm neurodivergent as well as are my kids and I'm like sometimes we have a hard time queuing in on our body needs, right? It's okay to just set a timer to eat and drink. Like it is okay to use tools to do that. For a long time I personally just didn't even want to accept that I was neurodivergent and I was like no I can just do all of this stuff. I just need to work harder. And part of me accepting my diagnosis was just kind of like the ability to be like oh it's and to let myself go like it's okay to use a tool. There's nothing wrong with setting a timer to remember to do something. And you know I tell that to clients too like if you're not remembering to eat set a timer. Yeah. Pick a time every morning that it feels like it might work and that's what snooze is for if you're like no I can't get up yet or you know sometimes have somebody will set two or three timers. So we like no I turn it off at nine but at 9 30 if it's gone off again, you know, I have a second alarm then if I haven't eaten by then I need to get up and eat. Yeah. You know I think that it's important to use whatever works and to do things everything from crock pot meals to freezer things to planning ahead to making really easy things, buying the things to make really easy um smoothies. You know, I have plenty of moms do smoothies in the morning. I'm like you take some you know frozen fruit and you add in some hemp or coconut milk or all these things you can add in some frozen um broth that was pretty neutral that didn't have any like you know garlic or ginger you won't really notice it um you know things like this there's a lot that you can do you can hide things in too like I used to put fresh aloe in like aloe juice and stuff like that in my smoothie or I love purple kale because it's good for you but it also keeps it purple. I prefer the visual of purple smoothie to a green one. I do beetroot to make it bright pink right I know I love beets um just pulled a few from my garden last night and was like oh they're so bright but yeah I mean finding and there isn't one tool that's gonna work for everybody but the fact that we have these conversations with our clients and we're sitting there going how can we help you because if you're not eating you're not going to get it through the day and you're gonna feel really exhausted and depleted. And like you said you're not gonna be a patient parent right like it's hard to be a patient parent when you're hangry.
SPEAKER_02Yes yes and I feel like I see all these big influencer accounts and they are totally normalizing it. And I'm like no you don't have to feel this way like there are some things you can do. So yeah a lot of it is just getting the foundations I mean even sunlight supporting circuit and rhythm like I'll do in-home lactation consult. All the blinds are closed and I'm like no no let's open this up like you need sunlight you need to see the sun you haven't slept so we need to tell your body to um you know help wake you up so and I don't know like in Washington if it's encouraged to get like a sad lamp like a light box um because you're a higher north I don't know we sometimes like I have one and sometimes we'll I'll encourage that with clients but a lot of times I'm like just to get out yes for a 20 minute walk every morning or sit outside.
SPEAKER_03Bundle up sun on your face like bundle up go for a walk if it's really chilly. It's and to be honest we just had a cold snap for a couple of weeks where it was chilly and we got down to the 20s but for the most part we're back to our typical weather for like the next two weeks which is slightly rainy here and there not all the time um and lows in the 40s and high in the 50s. Sometimes it'll be lows in the upper 30s and highs in the like upper 40s but still it's not that cold. Like it's really not um and we can get outside and I'm like baby wear you'll keep your newborn warm they'll keep you warm right but get sun on your face. Yeah those little things make a difference.
SPEAKER_02Yep yes and it's good for your baby too like we always talk about wake windows and you know your baby having their days and nights confused well they have a circadian rhythm too that you need to support so take them outside bundle them up open your blind so that they see the sun yeah I'm all about you know supporting baby circadian rhythm too and you know you're a wonderful parent you're doing great you're bending over backwards for your baby like their basic foundations and biological needs are the same as us. We should be eating we should get it be getting enough nutrients we should be getting the sunlight you know we should be getting movement like we encourage movement in babies encourage movement for yourself parents yeah I know I told someone the other day that they can hydrate as much water as they want but if they don't move at all their cells aren't getting hydrated and they were like wait what?
SPEAKER_03And I'm like we need to actually get up and move we need to like move our body in order to get the nutrients and the fluids and everything else into our cells and if we don't and I'm guilty of this too like there's days like today today is a virtual day for me. So I've got this recording with you and then I've got virtual clients and so it's like a walking pad. Right? Like it's hard. It's hard it can get hard to get the movement in. And so you have to get creative everything from like I have a yoga ball that I sit on during some I have a sit-stand desk I have a short break I'm gonna go take my kids out on a walk because we homeschool you know but it's like you have to make a point because sometimes it's not easy to do these things in life right our lifestyle nowadays doesn't always fit with what our body actually needs. So it takes work it takes thought yep but until we start saying that these things need to be addressed they're not going to be right nobody's just gonna start thinking oh I might be minerally depleted although I was thinking when you first started talking about the dairy cows and everything and I don't know how it wound up on like my feed on Pinterest but I must have looked up some sort of cute goat thing. We have chickens but no other farm animals and I keep getting these ones these little ads to add mineral blocks to your goats to get better milk for your cheese and everything and I'm like so so we give minerals to the animals but we haven't figured out that the people need the minerals yet yeah yep that's so funny that you're seeing that like seeing ads. Yeah I have I watched this one video and I don't know it's one of those the cute goats they just suck you right in but they're just this farmer was talking about how much of a difference it's made for their minerals and they had like this whole mineral station and the goats would go out and wind up picking and she would watch and she'd be like some goats never go over and choose this mineral and some always do. And they were very good at getting their own nutrients right and that's something I tell parents too when they're starting solids is like give your child the autonomy because too often as adults we lose that ability to really listen to what nourishes us to respond to what our body needs and we eat because it's there or we eat because everyone's eating or we eat because of emotions or whatever not because of hunger and we don't stop when we're full and all these things like give them the chance to start with that give them the chance to listen to their body and to actually be led by their body and it can be pretty cool to watch babies. I mean there's times when they'll just sit there and choose you know these veggies and the parents are like but the fruit's sweeter and I'm like well they really like this right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I mean even adults we have cravings a lot of times those cravings are because we need a nutrient like if you're craving ice cream maybe you need more iodine or calcium if you're craving the big hamburger maybe you need more iron you know like sometimes our cravings sure might be like stress related or you're just like craving something but a lot of times it's actually the nutrients that you're lacking so that's really cool about the goats like they knew what minerals they needed and were more inclined to go to that option. I know with me during my pregnancy I had an adrenal cocktail every day I was making sure I was getting enough salt and the days that I didn't I craved more salty chips I craved pickles I craved like my body knew I needed more sodium and potassium during pregnancy and so it was just like really interesting when I was intentional about adding it I had less cravings.
SPEAKER_03So yeah I've also seen the opposite to where our body sometimes tells us what we don't need. For example I had a time in my life in my 20s where I had chronic yeast and I craved sweets and I was absolutely feeding that yeast right like I was totally doing it and nobody it resolved and everything else but as I look back I can look at it now and go, dude, why didn't anyone ever tell me I stopped eating a cookie like I was craving the sweet that the yeast was needing to thrive and the yeast was like taking over but it was just kind of one of those things where it's like our body prioritizes and our our pathogens prioritize survival and stuff like that. And it isn't always in our best interest.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And but I always tell people that cravings say something, right? Like you said like is it are you depleted in this nutrient or is something else trying to thrive like the yeast was for me but like our cravings matter and they actually are our body sending us signals and little information and telling us what's going on. I think we just really need to learn how to listen to our bodies better. Yeah. Because our bodies are trying to tell us there's times when I wish we spoke the same language because I don't always understand what my body's saying. Yeah. But our body is trying so hard to give us all these clues so that we can figure out what's going on.
SPEAKER_02And I think we're suppressing it at with our kids like, oh if my kid has a headache, you're fine. You're okay. Or like mommy I'm not hungry like you hardly ate anything take a couple more bites you know like so we're kind of gaslighting them away like telling them like no this isn't what's actually happening in your body like my daughter said that she didn't want to go to school because she was sick and I was like no you're fine. And then she ended up so I sent her to school and because she looked fine. But then I got a call from the nurse saying she had developed a fever. And I'm like oh I just felt so bad. Like why don't I believe her you know so I feel like we're almost in a way conditioning our kids to ignore certain symptoms. But it's like no we need to listen and encourage them like we need to believe them, you know.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely body autonomy and like really just listening to what our body is saying and staying clued into that is something we definitely try to tamp out as adult. It's pretty hard to hold on to so I think it's great to try and I think it's a great place to start and to say to parents you know like what is your body trying to tell you and what is the baby's body telling them too and I'm always like your baby's giving so many clues do they not like to be worn in a carrier? Well wow they must be really uncomfortable let's figure out why because babies crave connection right like most babies love to be worn and held and connected to you. So if they're not they're telling us something let's figure it out yeah so I love what you're doing and I love the fact that you're focusing on this postpartum nutrition and maternal health because it's so necessary and I think that it's really wonderful and I hope that you know the other providers out there including other IBCLCs um can now see that there is another option and support and that we can you know refer and stuff like that. I'll put your uh website in the show notes but I think it'd be great for people to think about that that postpartum nutrition really does matter. Really if it's not in your um you know skill set then just refer out.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm mm-hmm yep I refer all the time public floor um mental health I mean my specialty is nutrition and breastfeeding but there's so many other things that concur and so yeah um referring out getting second opinions I mean even for like lactation I've had other lactation consultants say like I'm stumped on this can we brainstorm on this case and you know I'm a huge fan of collaboration over competition. Like there are way too many families out there we can learn to collaborate and work together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah I tell people too that they'll be like well what if there's another one in your area and I'm like there are too many families needing support. So until every family is supported in my area we are not saturated. So sorry like I mean look at how many pediatricians there are compared to lactation consultants like there's still plenty of need and eventually I hope that we'll be seen for all sorts of things of like you know people are surprised when I'm like of course I can help you with bottle feed of course I can help you with formula feeding like you know or with solids or with weaning or all these other things like it'd be nice for families to have lots of support yes so thank you so much for your time today this was awesome. Thank you so much for having me when you change the way you look at things the things you look at change you. I hope that you enjoyed the podcast today and learned something new. If you know someone who would benefit from this podcast please share