Building an Authentic Brand in a Curated World with Sarah Nicole from The Birds Papaya

The life everyone admires often comes with a story no one sees.

In this episode of ICONIC, Jennifer Leigh is joined by Sarah Nicole, founder of The Birds Papaya, bestselling author, and one of the internet's most influential voices on body acceptance, authenticity, and self-worth.

Behind Sarah's success is a story of learning to trust herself, navigate public criticism, and redefine what confidence really means. Together, Jennifer and Sarah explore what happens when your identity becomes intertwined with your work, how motherhood reshapes your perspective, and why building a meaningful life matters more than building a perfect image.

This conversation is for every woman who has ever questioned whether she's enough, wondered if success would finally bring confidence, or felt the pressure to become who the world expects instead of who she truly is.

In this conversation, Sarah shares:

• Why authenticity is something you protect, not perform

• The unexpected challenges of building a personal brand in public

• How motherhood transformed the way she sees herself and success

• Why becoming more of yourself is the greatest freedom you'll ever find

If this episode resonates with you, follow ICONIC and leave a review.

Connect with Sarah:

• Instagram: @thebirdspapaya

• Website: thebirdspapaya.com

• Podcast: The Papaya Podcast

Connect with Jen:

• Read Iconic Magazine®: becomingiconic.co/magazine

• Join House of Her, our exclusive membership community: becomingiconic.co/houseofher

• Watch on YouTube: @theICONICmagazine

• Follow on Instagram: @iconicmagazine__

Transcript

0:14

Iconic the show. Welcome. Our first guest, someone who I have deeply admired, who really, frankly, changed my life. Changed my life in terms of wearing a bikini and being unashamed and playing with my kids on vacation to sharing her with my daughter and my daughter and I having beautiful conversations around our bodies. Not necessarily loving every part of our body, but accepting it, being confident despite a stretch mark or some cellulite showing. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. I'm talking about Sarah from The Bird's Papaya. She is a guest today, also our cover feature in the Summer Magazine, and we have a really emotional conversation, not only around body, but around motherhood, around changing and moving through a growing personal brand. It's something you want to just sort of get comfortable and sit and enjoy and savor. I'm really glad you're here. Sarah. Yeah? What? I'm like, no, what's happening now? What happened? I just have to say something from my heart first. Okay. Okay? Without, oh see, I told you I was going to cry. That's okay. I make people either laugh or cry. There's no in between. Okay well that's good. And I'm a crier too. So if you go down, we go down together. Thank you. And I feel that from you. And that's, I think, why it makes me emotional. I found you around 2019. I was a late bloomer. Somebody said she's the most beautiful woman. And the way she celebrates her body is so inspiring. And I have not had a great relationship with my body for most of my life. And when I found you, ah just thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. It's interesting when people say things like that, it's... I think a lot of people just assume that I would know. Right. And I don't. I experience so much discourse and hate and confusion. And like you have so many incredible people that hype you up, but you don't actually see or get to know the impact on the other side of the phone. Yeah. There are so many days that I'm like, I can't do this anymore. And it'll take like one moment like this and I'll go like, okay that just bought me another six months. Do you know what I mean? I do. Like I think it, it's actually really taught me too, to like tell people, tell people like what it means, like what their content means. I have a friend who, if it wasn't for her content back in probably 2017, I wouldn't be who I am in 2026. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. So I'm really, I deeply appreciate that. I'm excited to have this interview with you. This whole day has been, listen, I'm so glam right now. Everyone, this is not my normal, but I love it. It's been really, it's been so fun to lean into like this. We did this very, like, 90s iconic shoot, very on the nose. And now I'm excited to sit down and talk and digest a lot of this. Yeah, thank you. And it's interesting you say that because it's something I have felt a lot in leadership as well. It's like more success that you gain. I think people assume that we have applause and gratitude pouring into us. But the DMs, it's actually not all that. It's quieter. It does. And that lonely at the top, there's something to it. I don't want to say it's a truth, but there's something to it. I think it's also just the assumption that what we see is what is. Right. I am one of the happiest people. I'm the happiest sad girl. I can push through a lot of things until I can't push through anymore. And when I'm not pushing through very well, you're not going to see it because I'm actually turtling up. So a lot of people wouldn't know when I'm having a bad time or when I'm questioning myself or doubting what that impact is. You feel really lost in the mix. And if everyone's watching your Instagram stories, they're not checking in on you. And it's very hard to know, like, how do I reach out and ask or say, like, I'm not okay or I'm not doing so great. I've had to really work on being a little bit more vocal about that, at least to the people around me, because it did get lonelier and lonelier because I think the more people had eyes on me, everyone, it was like the bystander effect. Everyone thought that everybody else was checking. Yes. And so it must be okay. So I've also really learned that some of my happiest friends to check in on them at the moments that they seem at their highest. I had this happen with a friend this last week. She looked like she had the best week of her life. And I just said, like, how was it really? And she goes, oh my gosh, I have been struggling. And I'm like, I'm so glad I asked because by all she was like, oh, I'm really good at like showing all the good stuff because I want to have that gratitude. But I also have to digest all of these other pieces that were really hard to digest. And yeah, it's a big reminder I think, to we haven't really learned when it comes to especially women that just because they look okay doesn't mean they are okay. Just because they have the capacity or like they have the ability to push through things or to carry a lot doesn't mean that they should be. And just because they have success in all these different areas of their life doesn't mean that there isn't something that's like falling apart for them in the back end too, right? So I love those things now that we see these trends with all the cars on the highway. Yeah. And it has these like little texts on each of the different cars. And it's like, this person's going through infertility. This person just found out they're pregnant. This person just lost their job. This person just started their job on the first day. This person had a breakup. This person's getting married. This person's doubting their life. This person is like, you know, struggling with postpartum depression. And you see from like, you take the lens out and you're like, oh right. It's not just me in the middle of all this stuff. Everybody has got stuff that they're going through. And I think if we all just like, it's like the both and of life. If we can just recognize that like, there's so much good and it doesn't mean it's all easy. No, no, I often say more is more. So we can't wish for more success, more abundance and expect to not be met with more, you know, challenge. Yeah, that's it. And so I feel like that's really the leadership. That's really the journey is being able to expand our capacity to hold both. And it's not for everybody. Not everybody could hold that or should hold that, truthfully. But I really appreciate you saying that because it's also a really human way of looking at someone like yourself who has such a big following and such an established brand to remember at the end of the day, you're going home to your kids as a mom and you're doing a lot of this for us. And I think that's also something that people warp their minds around. It's like you're doing us a service. You don't have to show your body to us. You don't have to send these messages out into the world. It's for someone like me who deeply appreciates it. So that part to me too, is like, I think we just need to be reminded. Yeah. And I mean, I think. It's one of the more challenging pieces for me is, listen, I believe wholeheartedly in body autonomy. Anything that anybody ever wants to choose for their body, to feel their best in their body, whether it's gender affirming care, whether it's just like if you want to go for the full mommy makeover and you're like ready to like close a chapter and this is the way you're closing it. I do not care what those things are. I will be there to change your drainage tubes. Like I am so there for everybody and their choices with their body. What's been interesting is that I've been offered all of it for free. I've been offered all of it for free and I have continued to turn it down over and over because I know that like listen this isn't like the easiest thing in the world I know that to remove the skin to change these things would probably bring some forms of relief but it also might not. And if it did bring those forms of relief what happens to everybody who doesn't have that access to these things and they don't have the ability to have those same free surgeries. Like I just, I can't abandon the version of me that really needed the me now. I just won't do it. That's good. I really, it's been too important to me. I spent a very, very long, listen, it has nothing to do with the body at the end of the day. It has a lot to do with the fact that we deserve to live our lives. And I think that that's like just deeply unfair that we're stuck in these moments or these times where we feel like there is... The only way to feel good about ourselves is if we look a certain way. So if I can say, hey, listen, I'm not going to do that. But what I am going to do is I'm going to walk a runway. I'm going to do the photo shoots. I'm going to wear a bikini to the beach. Not because I think I look the best I've ever looked, but because I didn't know that I deserve to have that life. It robs you of time with your kids and all these things when you have. And I just know that like from where I'm standing, there are so many people who are stuck in that same place and if they feel like the only way out is surgery then they're missing the opportunity to still live their lives. That can't be the only answer and this is what I love about, there's no one way to do things there's so many there's no one way to parent there's no one way to do your job there's no one way there's so many ways to live life and to go through things. So I'm choosing this way to show other women that if they also chose that way, then we get to like, that's great. I just didn't have any representation for that. And I really thought that mattered for me. It does. It really does. What keeps you going though? So kind of going back a little bit into the conversation, but moving it forward is, you know, you have these people that just say things that just, I don't, it makes me awe struck. Like, I just, I can't understand it, but it happens. What keeps you going? Like, what makes you continually show up for your brand? And are there times where you almost feel like I'm ready for something new? Yeah. It is in the sense that like I want to, I've been having a little bit of a shift lately where I'm like, how do I showcase a body like mine, but I don't say anything about it? How do I just normalize it? How do I just live the life without people saying something? But we had this conversation a little bit earlier on set today with any single time you see somebody in a changed body, a woman in entertainment with a changed body, an aged body, her body becomes the conversation, even though that's not what she's there for. So I have to also acknowledge this is where we're at in society. So even if I'm showing up and I'm just on set in a bikini, people will still make it about my body, even if I'm saying nothing at all. So I understand that that's sort of the world. So sometimes I like to get ahead of it. And sometimes I like to push back on what people are saying because people oftentimes the fear that holds them back to live their life is what will people think and what will people say? So if they have that fear and it's keeping them living a small life, I want them to see those things said to me and me be like excuse me what? Sorry you think this is going to stop me? You are saying this from the standpoint of, sitting in like your mom's basement on a computer saying it and I'm on a runway, I'm on a beach. You're not even here. And the people who are here would never. They would never. So it's like I don't really want to entertain it and at the same time, it fuels me because I'm like, this is sometimes, forgive my language, the most idiotic stances that you could have on a woman. Like, this is what you reduce somebody to. Sorry, that's your low thinking. Not mine. And so I want women, because when you hear these things at first, you're just like [gasp] Because we're so conditioned to whatever men think of us is the standard in which we're supposed to live our lives. So when you stand up and push back against that, it really can change the way that you show up for yourself. And if I saw somebody have that said to them about their body, I would be throwing hands, hypothetically. So I want them to start to have that script for themselves. I love that. I love that whole thing where it's like the way you talk to yourself, like, hey, don't talk to my friend that way. My friend does that all the time. Whenever you say something negative about yourself, she's like, hey, don't talk to my friend that way. I love that. But yeah, I would say the thing that keeps me going is to see and hear the direct impact. If I felt like it wasn't making a difference anymore, I would move forward. It's also interesting because a lot of people are like, this is all you talk about. And I'm like, interesting because there's 10 other things I talked about, but this is just the thing that you remember and you're seeing or the algorithm served you. There's a lot of other things in my life that we're talking about. But I will always respect that many people followed me for this. And I want to continue to show up for that as well. So within that is also giving myself grace and understanding for a changing body. I have gained and lost weight many times over the last 18 years online. I just want the why in the middle to stay the same. If I gain weight, I don't want you to see me do less or to wear different clothes or to start to hide. If you see me at a smaller size, I don't want you to assume that I'm happier. I want you to, again, see me showing up and doing the things over and over again so that the why stays the same. I'm not going back to the sidelines of my life. I don't want anybody else to. Let's keep showing up because everybody's aging. Everybody's bodies are changing. These are the inevitables of life. How do we detach from thinking that one specific look is going to be the thing that earns us the one life that we have? I agree. So well said. And you're right. The conversation is far from over. Even myself, I've released a lot of weight and it's all people talk to me about now. Oh my gosh. And assumptions and like, oh, what did you take? What did you do? And it's you look so great. And I remember somebody saying that to me once too, after having a baby. Like, you look so good for having I can't remember what I was on saying that. And I was like, what do you mean I look so good for having? Like, what does that mean? You look so grateful. Stop. That's it. And it's but we still do look at women and their bodies. And there's still a defined sense of what beautiful is or what acceptable is. And it's been really awe-inspiring again for me because when I was heavier, nobody said much. When I lost, a lot of people say a lot of things because I'm more acceptable. It's just so interesting to me and the conversation's been really loud. But you were the same person on the inside. I was the same person. So then you see it and feel it. And it almost makes you angry. You're like, hey, I was deserving of all of this before, too. Also, I don't know about you, but if my body is suddenly smaller, that doesn't necessarily mean it was like through great things. Like, I might have been struggling mentally. It's just it's really fascinating. But I also understand that these are the conditions in which we've grown up in. So I really want us to reframe. I understand that this is the society that we've been raised in. And this is like how our mothers are raised and our grandmothers are raised. And I also believe that we're the cycle breakers. So I believe that we're also raising the cycle breakers where we can start to be like, let's just let's talk about anything else that's more interesting than this. Amen. Yeah. And just like changing the way that we continue to. If you define a woman by her body, then she will only define herself as that. And she will only limit herself by that. So I don't know how she fights for more. I believe that the woman's body is the thing that she thinks about probably more than anything else. And if we took all of that brain energy into other things, what would our life look like? What would our success look like? What would our leadership look like? How would we show up? Right? Imagine how we'd show up in rooms. I know. We'd just be so expressed and so. We'd show up like a man. We would. It'd be brilliant. It'd be brilliant. I want to steer the conversation because really for me too, one of the things I really wanted to know was exactly what you're saying, actually. Sarah, beyond the body, you as a mom, and you and I share that we have a bit of a spread with our kids too. So that comes with lots of dynamics. How has it been being a mom and having such a public persona as well? This is where I'll get emotional. I've never been an adult without being a mom. So it's been so important to me to be a mom and. Like to be Sarah and a mom. A lot of people forget I went from being a teenager to a parent. I had three kids by 25. I do not regret this. But I haven't gotten a chance to see the world yet, I haven't, like my kids now I saw this really beautiful post the day actually by Whit Leavitt from her husband posted this it said if your kids ask you one day did you give up your dreams for me, the quote said something around like no I jumped it beside you like i had you with me and so, I stayed home with my kids for 10 years and now they've watched me have this like whole other, part of me outside of them and it's years ago my parents actually lived in Singapore for a year and I watched my mom be a person outside of a mother for the first time. And it really woke me up to like wow this was actually so valuable for me as her child to like get to see and know the things that make her her without who she is to me. I want my kids to know that part of me I want them to see that and not just have this, an exchange of needs met you know where it kind of feels that way for a long time, it's very transactional. So a lot of seasons of that. I feel like when I've become more, getting to know myself and being more myself, it's allowed me to be a better mom, a happier mom. I'm more content, I feel like I can give them a hundred percent because I'm giving myself a little bit more. There's a lot of cliche things that we can say in here right now but that's genuinely. Listen my child is literally calling me right now. I know it. Oh, it's actually an alarm. That's fine. Yeah, there's like, it's been so important for me. I'm 41 now. I had my first child at 21, pregnant with her at 20, and now she's turning 20. And it's been just like, I'm so, like I grew up alongside them. And I love that so much. And I also, I'm so glad that I didn't just like, define my entire life by one chapter. I'm so glad that I gave so much of myself to it and I'm so glad I give myself a lot of opportunity beyond it. There is this motherhood guilt that exists for us that does not exist for fathers and I did a whole series once on like the things that I never heard people say to their dad and it was a lot of like how do you deal with the mom guilt? How do you go to work? What you know like, You shouldn't be wearing that as a mom. I was like, nobody's like, I'm so confused. These conditions that continually get put on us, especially in a society that's like, have kids, have kids, have kids. Don't look like you've ever had kids. And also, you need to do everything as if you've never, as if you don't have them. Yeah, you don't have them. And then if you do have them, you better make sure that, like, that's your whole life. Don't have a life outside of them. But in the workplace, don't have kids. And at home, don't have a job. There's no wins. And it's just, there's really no win. And so when I look at a lot of the judgments and stuff, it's interesting. When I get hate from men around my body, it is not worse than when I get it from women around anything else. Women can be so, listen, men are like, your body sucks. Women are like, you're a terrible parent. And I hope that you lose your children. I hope that you never get another job. I hope that you, we're going to email the people that you work for. They go so deep and cut so cruelly. It's almost aggressive, isn't it? I'm like, why? Guys, we are on the same team. We're supposed to be fighting for each other. We're supposed to be better than this. But again, it all comes down to the exact same distractions that just keep us living small lives. That when we see somebody else living even a little bit bigger than that. I was a single mom and people rooted for me. And then when I made it in terms of like success in my own life they're just like wow you think you're better than like you think you're what are they oh the thing I got a lot was you're so full of yourself I was like, I'm sorry, do you want me to be empty? Why do you want that? It's been a challenging reminder to also think for myself beyond some of these things as well, because I wouldn't be able to keep going. There's no way I'd be able to keep going. It's so hard. If you took every little bit of everything that everyone's saying, how could you ever form an opinion for yourself? It's true. It's impossible. And it just, I want to like wrap your heart around, right? Because it's true. And I really appreciate what you say, because it's very much my philosophy as well. As a mom of four and similar, my daughter's now the age I was when I was getting married and started to think about having children. And she's just like a little tiny baby still in my eyes. And so I too have kind of shared that journey of building my career in entrepreneurship alongside of building my family. And I always think to myself, and you know, because your kids are getting older now, and you'll see it more and more, the culture that we raise them in because we were being ourselves while simultaneously being present for them, they just have this more tenacious outlook in life. I find my kids are more accepting because there's not just sort of these boxes that you fit in. They think outside of the boxes. And I also really appreciate their willingness to celebrate me as a mom and simultaneously celebrate me as, a woman living out her dreams. And I think isn't that ultimately the example? And it's not that it has to look one way. This is just the way, you know, different businesses, but similar in its own sense. But I just think it's really special. Yeah. I think it's also one of the things that I challenge women on the most because somebody challenged me with this years ago.

When you're questioning your life and your decisions, to ask: 22:32

what would you want for your daughters? And for whatever reason we want more for them than we do for ourselves. So when we remember like hey like you're a little girl too like you're somebody's daughter too like this is your life too. If you looked at your daughter's life and were like, do you want her to stay in this or leave this? Do you want her to pursue her dreams or you know abandon them for motherhood do you want her to have both if she has two dreams at the same time? Yes so it really helps inform the choices you make for yourself when you're able to view it through the lens of those you love most preciously and when if you want for them that, then it almost gives you permission to say it for yourself too. I don't remember even the scenario in which I was talking to somebody about it, and they said like what would you want for your daughters? And now it's like every single time that guilt creeps in and I'm like, is this real guilt? Or is it like I'm worried about other things? If it's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be leaving on another work trip. I'm supposed to like, I watched a friend the other day. She raced home from a work trip and met and got to her kid's practice. And I just wrote and said, you're a good mom. Because you're just, two dreams at once is like burning both ends of the stick. It is. And you want to hold on to both of them. And it doesn't, I love the analogy around like the rubber balls and the glass balls. Like if you're going to juggle in life, make sure that you're juggling the rubber balls. Just don't juggle the glass ones because the glass ones, if you drop them, they break. So you got to make sure that like. Are you okay as a person? Like, listen, job stuff, if you drop the ball and it's rubber, everyone's going to be fine. If you didn't get that end of day deadline, they're going to be fine with noon tomorrow. You can't drop the glass balls. So as long as the kids remember, hey, in all of this juggle, you're the glass. I'm never going to drop. I'm never even going to juggle you. You were always priority. I was in the middle of a huge meeting in L.A., and my daughter called me, and she was crying on the other end. She goes, I'm so sorry. And I was like, I do not care who's in this room. Right now like you are priority and it's interesting and I wonder what your thoughts are on this because one of the biggest things if you are a woman in business in any world and you also have children everyone says how do you balance it? And I'm like what are you talking about? What balance? I know. We're just juggling balls and I'm making sure I'm not juggling the glass ones, that's it. That's all it is. It's gonna be chaos, it's gonna be chaos for a while. I keep thinking like, if I just get through these next two weeks everything's gonna be fine. It's been that way for like 18 years. I know, it's true. And I actually think of it too in terms of my kids. When you think about balance, that would mean every one of my kids gets the equal time with me and equal presence and equal. But that's not even fair because sometimes one of our kids needs more of our attention that day than another. And so what are we actually seeking in that? And I think it's just a lie that we're trying to figure out. And in trying to figure it out, we feel imbalanced. So I like to talk about it in terms of like harmony. Yeah. Today, I want to be with you. This was your day. Be present. And guess what? I get to, after this is done, go home and be completely present with my kids for the next four days. Because I planned it that way. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I agree. I think that it's a big subject now, especially with Emma Grede bringing it up, you know, balance. And I think it's a really important subject that we talk more about because you're right. Nobody would say to a father, how are you balancing it all? Would never, ever be a question. To a man. And at the same time, I don't feel bad that we get asked that, too, because in some ways it's empowering. It's like, yeah, I do hold a lot. Yeah, I am a great mom and I am a career woman. And so I don't mind it as long as it's coming from a positive, empowering place, not in a way of disempowering me or making me feel a certain way because you're uncomfortable with what is presented because you actually don't even know, what you think is happening. I also think it's really important for us to remember two different things. One, the job of parenthood is actually to prepare them for life without you. Not to shelter them and be in their space at every single moment of the day and answer every problem that they should ever have. I watch Finding Nemo right before the beginning of school every year because I love this one singular line that says, I don't want anything ever to happen to him. And Dory says, well, that's not very fun for little Nemo, like then nothing will ever happen for him. And it's like that push and pull of, like, letting them go in order to live their life. And that's, like, our job. Part two is, oh my gosh, motherhood is not sitting in a room with them. I don't know why this concept has happened that we believe if you're just present in the room with them, that's parenthood. It's not. I have been on airplanes, booking doctor's appointments, answering emails for school, checking their homework for them, paying cheer bills. It's so it bleeds into every part. Yes, there are the moments that we have. I really need this focus right here. I'm going to be present here. But at the end of the day, motherhood isn't something that gets encapsulated into being actually with them. It's so much bigger than that. So I also think it like grossly misinterprets what motherhood is to just reduce it to just time with them and time. And how much time. You can have so much time with someone and have no depth of relationship. Yeah, no quality. And you can have, you know, one hour a week. Obviously, we're going to have more than an hour a week. But like, let's say as they get older and you have one, that, okay, so like that is, if that's the quality if it's so rich and so deep that is what it is. If you are still probably answering 25 texts that day, three Facetime calls, taking on all of these different needs for them and also helping provide not only life but the ability for them to grow beyond you it's so so so important and I didn't really learn a lot of that until I started working outside the home. Not saying you have to do that but like I realized that I was doing a little too much for my kids the second I started leaving them. Yeah. Because then they were like, wait, what? How do we do anything? And I was like, oh no, we're not prepared at all for the world. So watching my kids actually go into going to university, having cars, having jobs, having responsibilities and schedules to keep on their own. It's really I can sit back now and go like, all right, you're going to be okay. Like you're actually going to be great. And they're good people. And they're good people. It makes me really happy. I bet it does. I bet it does, it is very rewarding. So there's this beautiful mom side of you well the whole part of you actually it's not even a side. There's also this business side to you, you know, and I am so curious around this because you are, would you say you're the first Canadian influencer? No, Jillian Harris. Oh, yeah, I guess she would have been. She was probably the first like reality TV show to influence her that we really saw. Yeah. But she really showed a lot of women what was possible in the world of influencing in business. I would say it was her. I was blogging around the same time, but didn't have nearly the same like I didn't have the same resources. I mean I say I've been doing it for 18 years but I mean like most like the first 10 of them were practice rounds like, for sure. I understand that. But yeah I think there's I definitely was one of the early adopters of blogging because I remember at the time I didn't really know of until I found Jillian I don't think I knew of another Canadian blogger at that time they were almost all in Utah. Yeah, oh really? Yeah, yeah it's the hub. It is the hub. There's a lot of reasoning behind that but it's the hub. Do you mind sharing? I'm curious now. A lot of influencing actually like stemmed out of like mormon families because there was, from what I understand, there was a lot of women were wanted to be working in the home, not working outside the home. And so they created and they're also so crafty. So original blogs were a lot of crafts, a lot of home decor, crafts, cooking and they had all of these skills that were often like handed down by generation. So a lot of these craft blogs really surged ahead and we saw a lot of them were in Utah and they were using it both as a means to like share their lifestyle with the world that didn't really see that outside of Utah. And it became a business that they could do while raising their families. What was interesting about it is when you look at Utah as a whole, the things that are happening in Utah usually happen in the world about three to five years later. Because I was in Utah about five years ago, and everyone had Stanley Cups. And everyone was drinking dirty soda. No. And everyone was wearing all these outfits. And everyone was an influencer. Almost everybody was an influencer. And then three to five years, I watched it happen in real time. I was like, wow, this is because there's so many of them. And the influence was actually so strong. They were able to create a massive influence across the world. Wow. But yeah, that's where there's a woman named Stephanie McNeal and she wrote a book on Swipe Up for More, I believe is the name of it. And she goes kind of into the roots of where all these things began. But when I first started blogging, almost all of them were exclusively craft and mom blogs in Utah. And what happened for me was when Instagram came about was also the time that the camera lens started changing from being homes and stuff into what you're wearing and what you looked like. And that's when I started my weight loss journey, which essentially had me lose all the weight and not feel better about myself, which trajectured me into part two, which was I went from craft blogger, to weight loss influencer to, oh my God, none of that worked to make me happy. Everything else yeah into like I don't want to say body acceptance because I don't know that that really ever happens but like body confidence like the confidence to live your life no matter what, even if that confidence is like really really doing it scared. I still want to do those things but yeah so 18 years ago I started when I was a stay-at-home mom and my 18 year old was just born. Yeah. So what I mean, I can imagine how much everything has changed. Yeah. But maybe you could take me through some of those marker moments, like the big kind of changes you remember that were either breakthroughs for you or breakthroughs for the industry. Can you remember some of those? For sure. So for me, it was a bit of luck and willingness. It was almost accidental as well, which is why I say luck. Not to like minimize what I've done, but also I could never have possibly known that the world was ready for some of these conversations. I didn't set out to have them. I was I mean probably the most notable was asked to model for Knix. I had gone through a little bit of like seeing other people do some body, like body confidence stuff body acceptance and I shared a photo of myself that showed like maybe an inch of my stretch marks and in it I was wearing Knix and I tagged the brand and the founder reached out and said, "hey, would you like to come to our shoot?" and I said no and she said,"we're not doing it without you". So i said yes. And so then I went and it was like the first time I'd been at a photo shoot. There was multiple moments of that day that really changed it for me but just like there was a model on set named Truth Alexis and I remember the stretch marks on the side of her hips and how beautiful I thought they were. And she had cellulite on her thighs and I was like oh my god here are all these things that I was talking myself out of why I don't deserve to be here and all of the models looked different we all had different body sizes so there was like no comparison to each other really we all just showed up and we had this moment of dropping our robes and shooting in our underwear. But that photo, I thought it would be in high-rise underwear, but the photo of me in lower-rise underwear went quite viral. And for me, I didn't know. We have to remember going back like eight years, I had never seen another woman with a stomach like mine. We say that now and it's like, well, obviously there's so many, but I had never seen it. So how would I ever know? This is why I was sort of like hiding within my own life and world. So when I, when this post, got made, and I read the comments, I found out very quickly that there was a lot of other women like me. And they weren't talking to me. They were talking like, oh my God, I've never seen a model that looks like any. I've never seen a stomach like mine. And I'm going, oh my God, I had no idea. I had no idea. So it's sort of like that moment of, first of all, I thought I was going to throw up when I first saw it because I felt a lot of shame. And it quickly took that away from me in finding community that there was like, I wasn't alone in this. And I wanted so many other people to have that feeling of like, oh my God, you're not the only person who has a body changed by childbirth or by body change of any means. So I really did want to encapsulate that feeling and expand on it. And the world was ready. So I got lucky on that because it could have not been. True. So for a couple years or actually several years, it was just all growth. It was all growth, all growth, all growth. And when you say growth, not to interrupt you, but is that growth like following? Yeah, following, following, engagement, opportunity. I was able to quit my job eight years ago. When I quit my job, I had 80,000 followers. I think I had half a million within like the first six months. I think it was a year and a bit later that I hit the first million. Maybe a year after that, it hit two. And so now it's like really tapered off. And like but I also acknowledge like at the beginning I had so much stamina for all of it and you forget like as you build and grow you build a business, you have a team, you have other responsibilities. I have an app, I have a podcast, I have like modelling that I do. We have all these different like, clients and brands that we so lovely get to work with ongoing. I also have a house to run and kids. My capacity's changed. I'm just gonna be honest with it. My capacity's changed. So I believe that the growth probably has stabilized or slowed or regressed even at times because I don't have the same capacity that I had for it five years ago or like even 10 years ago. But this feels sustainable. So I'm kind of staying here because two years ago I almost quit. Really? Yeah. What was that about? Well, my mental health was tanked. I felt like everything I was doing didn't feel right. I was struggling with the trolling online. It was getting really targeted. It was getting really like I didn't feel safe anymore, if I'm honest with you. And so then I was like, I don't really know how to move forward. I didn't know what that path was. But that freed me in that moment because then I was like, okay, what if I give it one more year? But I've already quit. I've already quit. So none of this really matters. Nobody can take this away from me because I already took it away from myself. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And so I went in and was like, let's have at it. Let's just do whatever. And that meant sometimes not posting for five days. Sometimes that meant like posting whatever I thought was funny. That meant posting hot photos and then realistic photos and doing like just like being sillier and like really leaning into whatever it is that I needed. And that's why I'm still here today. That's why I'm still doing it today. And now I go in with the mindset of like, I don't know, do I have like another three years in me? I have no idea. I don't want to go with the assumption of like this is forever. But I love it. And I don't want my joy of it to be stolen because of like algorithm changes or following changes. But these benchmarks of career for me that have really meant a lot have been these moments of like, not necessarily like, yes, I remember celebrating a million followers, but it was maybe five minutes before somebody said, I wonder when you're going to hit two. It was like, I hadn't even blown up the candle on the cake. And it was like, oh, when are you going to hit the next? So I was like, oh, this is never going to end. No. So how do I enjoy it? And that's sort of where I am now is like, I really want to enjoy it. I love this job. I love the opportunities around it. I struggle mentally with the constant flow of opinion. One of my core ethos is when I quit my job to do this full-time, I committed to spending four hours a day in my DMs and comments because I wanted to stay in the community that supported me. I wanted to be there. If I'm talking about a product and I'm working with a brand under a sponsored format, I'm also going to be the customer service for them because I want to be able to be that gap. If you're looking for support on something you're looking to buy, let me talk to you about it. I'm not here to just like post and ghost. And so spending four hours a day means good and bad. There's nobody else that reads my DMs. I don't have somebody who sits there and goes, Sarah, do not read this one. It's me. So it's a lot of blocking and blessing sometimes. It's a lot of like reframing. I've also changed the way I show up. I don't share everything anymore. And I don't think that makes me not vulnerable or not real. I've just become more like, it's just not sustainable and really paying attention to like, how am I going to stay in this job and stay happy and stay joyful in it and do a good job, like do a good job. I'm not going to do a good job if I'm burnt out, if I'm salty, if I feel like I can't, or I'm not deserving of it. These are some of the things that kind of go through your mind when you think you're about to quit. But yeah, quitting kind of, mentally quitting really saved it for me. Well, because I feel like what you'd said, what you're saying is that you just stopped pressuring it. We talk a lot about that. I think when we pressure and force something, there isn't a lot of joy or room for joy in that. Whereas if you allow things to unfold as they're supposed to, which is a release, which is a bit of a surrender. And also I hear the word discernment coming up with you, starting to discern. Because you don't owe, like, I think that's, again, what people need to hear listening to this and watching this. Like there's no IOUs. Like Sarah doesn't owe you to tell you everything about her day or her life or her family or her kids. And it's a blessing when you do. And I think we need to remain grateful that you're willing to. So it's the discernment to me is such a great leadership quality of you because you're also showcasing. So you've been an example, an example of celebrating body, been an example of being a mom, been an example now of discernment. And I'm choosing different for myself. And if it's not okay with you, that's. Yeah, I kind of have reframed it as a sense of like, if I've invited you over for a party, you're so welcome on the whole main floor. Just don't go upstairs in the kids rooms, don't go in the basement. Also in the same way that if I show my body and I showed up online every day showing all these things being in a bikini and one day I just like I don't want to show my body anymore you wouldn't sit there and go like how dare you show us your body but like that's sort of where I'm at it's like I just, I wasn't sustaining. I wasn't doing well sharing everything and feeling safe and supported in that I wanted to be able to, I'll give you a really good example. A couple of years ago, I decided to take on going on a runDisney. So I was training for a 10K and I said very openly, I'm not going to share my fitness because the last time I really shared this, I felt like I started to do it performatively. I also took on a lot of criticism. It stripped a lot of the joy for me. So I'm going to do it privately, but I'll show you when I show up to the race, I'll maybe give a couple updates around the way, but I'm not going to share my fitness anymore. And. It was the best decision for me because I would go on a run and I didn't need to like report to headquarters like I did. I was just like, oh, I'm just doing this for me. It allowed me to create that separation. When you've been sharing as like, it's almost like my phone had become like an extension of my arm. I had to start figuring out putting the phone down, which has been somewhat of a struggle as well, because people will be like, wow, you're never with your kids. I was like, they are literally beside me right now. We're like snuggled up on the couch watching TV. And if I did show you I'm with my kids they would go like wow you can't even put the phone down can you? So I was like alright well you know what, I need to figure out how to like live the life that I want to live and do it in a way that is sustainable for me. Again, like that word because the fitness part of it really showed me that I was in many ways looking for validation from other people around the fact that like I was working out and I needed to take it back and do it for me and so, and I've stayed that way I actually I really brought it up really again. And it's not like, I'm not lying about anything. I just, listen, it wasn't healthy for me. So I had to change those things. It's not, it doesn't make me feel like the best mom if I'm feeling like I'm documenting everything all the time. I just wanted to do less of that. I wanted to be more present. I wanted to do some more things with my kids without thinking through the lens of like all the other pieces of it, right? So a lot of the, a lot of the growth has actually been in stabilizing and in slowing down. I will also say I'm so lucky because to this day, I have like such a strong community that shows up every day, even if I'm like, When I went to film a reality show last summer, the amount of messages of people who checked in on me, and then I also got messages of people being like, wow, I really took for granted, like, being able to, like, watch you every day. And I was like, oh, that's actually so sweet because you don't know. You're like, wow, I don't know. Like, would I want to watch me? Like, I don't know. Like, and not always having something exciting to share. Who cares? This is like regular life, right? Sometimes it's really exciting. And I also want to share that stuff. It's really odd as a woman. Like, sometimes you're like, oh, my God, I have this incredible photo shoot that I want to share. But, like, I feel embarrassed about it, like, because, like, we tend to, especially as women, we lean into. We tuck away our successes and we, but we're so okay to be, like, sharing the stuff that's not that. I don't know. It's, like, it's so, yeah, I think about this all the time. Why is it so hard for me to show something that's, like, a huge win? But if I showed a picture of like me snuggled up on the couch with my dog, that feels more palatable. Like, why do I think that way? Is it protection from, you know, the stuff? I mean, let's be honest, when you have people that make you feel unsafe in your life. It doesn't feel good. It's like almost I would imagine like maybe two things. Number one, I just want to protect this so I can feel happy. Yeah. And nobody can take that like. Yeah. Chip at it. And also, you know, I don't want to put this out there and attract that. Like, is there a bit of protection, perhaps? Yeah, maybe. Like, I think it's also because I have heard things like that. Like, we're just like, I want to, the people that I love online, whenever I think about it, are like these very strongly confident women who are just like so badass. And I love watching them do all of these incredible things. And I can't imagine if they were sitting at home and being like, this feels like bragging. Like, I don't want to do that. This feels like I'm showing off. I don't want to do that. But like, that's what I'm doing. Like, I struggle with showing those things. And then I'll have this like burst of confidence and I'm like, eff it, I'm going to post it all. It's just like, it's a really, it's a really bizarre thing. And I've shared this before on other podcasts, but Vivian Kaye years ago was on my podcast and we were talking about, she has a saying called, what would Chad do? And it's like really mimicking, like how men can move through society and environments, especially at work. And she's like, men will get a touchdown in high school and talk about it for the next 40 years. But women will like shush away their like one success. They don't want to come off as like too boastful, they don't want to come off as too much, they don't want to, and it's so true and it's like it's also kind of, difficult. I showed I did this photo shoot a month ago and when I shared it this woman wrote me and said because i said oh my God I can't believe this is me like it looked so incredible and I was like I can't believe this is me. And she goes this is it for me I have to unfollow, you need to get over yourself. And I was like, what? What is that? Like, why? Why? And so, like, it's interesting because now I've had the photos from the shoot and they're sitting in my drafts. They're some of the best freaking pictures of me ever. And I want to share them, but I don't. That's not what I'm putting out there. I want to show being a woman beyond being a mother. I want to show being somebody beyond all these other societal structures. I look hot in these photos. I don't know why this has gotten so twisted where we used to like only show up online if we looked hot. And now it's like, if you look too hot, how dare you? It's just really messed up. I'm saying it and I'm stumbling through it because I also still don't understand. I haven't really wrapped my head around the why and the how of it all yet. It's just a confusion for me that I, because when I see my friends winning at life, I want to see them win more. That's all I want. And I feel like it's because the toxic meanies are just louder than the ones that celebrate us. Yeah, of course. We get 99 compliments and one negative one and I'm just like, well, that's all I can hear. Yeah. And I've had to learn that lesson so many times in leadership. I remember having somebody that just wasn't happy with me and our relationship. And I remember it was my birthday and I was crying and I was so upset that I had forgotten about the roster of clients that I had that were like, you're the best. I couldn't do this without you. And that was one of the turning points for me is like, how come I give so much of my personal power over to this? And I remember talking to my dad about it. And he said, Jen, it's just one of those people that no matter what you did, you could put on a circus, you could do cartwheels. They don't want to like you. They don't want to see you as a person that has benefited them. And so what are you trying to prove and what are you trying to win here? And I just remember that conversation so clearly. I remember the freedom in that. And I'm definitely not perfect. And I think it's one of my biggest fears of success has been the visibility, has been do I come off boastful? Yeah at the same time it's like, If we don't do it and be willing to have some of that happen, we're never going to make a difference either. It's almost like going back to your original days. If you didn't go and put your body out there, I wouldn't be where I am. And thank you for doing that. It's easier said than done. Of course, yeah. But I almost wonder if all of us collectively listening to this conversation decide today through this dialogue, okay, what if we just put a line in the sand and say enough is enough and we cheer for women? And if we can't cheer, then we keep going. Well, and also like allow ourselves feelings of jealousy. I look at people doing things online all the time that I'm like, damn, I wish that was me. I have really worked hard to redirect into recognizing that jealousy is a spotlight to the things I want. And this person showed me it was possible. And I really it's or at least I can cheer for her in the sense of like damn I really want that I know what it must be like to get it so I'm really glad. You hope they're grateful obviously but like there is a lot of like that's, For everything that it's hard to watch other people in their lives and especially the highlight reel that we inherently do get when it comes to social media. And I also acknowledge that like I'm no better. Like I still have some of these feelings of like less than. I have feelings of like wanting to have what somebody else has or the opportunities that they got or like a why not me or am I getting too old? Like I'm having a lot of these thoughts and feelings too, but I'm just not putting them on her. I refuse to. So what I tend to do is when I'm actually having those feelings is I will actually force myself to say something really, really nice. Because I'm just like, no, I'm not going down with this. Like, you showed me what's possible. How incredible. I saw somebody this week get a really incredible opportunity that is such a dream. And I also had never seen another Canadian woman get. And I was like, I had to tell you, you're leading the way because I didn't even know a Canadian woman could have this opportunity. And you just did it. Unbelievable. Because really, she opened a door. She opened a door to something I didn't even know was possible. Now I know it is. Now I was like, go back and I don't want her to lose this opportunity. I want her to show how great it goes so that people, maybe I have an opportunity like this in the future because she succeeds in it. It opens the doors for more. It does. Yeah, it does. I think that's like actually where I want to kind of like tie it up because that's who you are. Like that actually summarizes who you are. You've been someone who has been willing to go out there and do things that have not been done. You've been willing to show parts of yourself through empowerment and wanting better for other women. And just that example to, you know, to sort of say, I saw somebody open a door that I didn't even realize could be open and I'm celebrating her. And even the fact that you were like, and I force myself sometimes to applaud them or say something. Yeah, I'm not a better person. It's not like in my brain that I'm like, I'm a really good person. I was like, nah, damn it, I want that. But I'm like, ooh, reframe. First thoughts, second thoughts. I think a lot of us have to remember when we're in the process of changing the way we think. Your first thought is like this inside like things that have been built within us, the thoughts that have been built and the second thoughts are us. So over time if you practice having a second thought then the second thought becomes the first thought and suddenly the jealousy starts to melt away a little bit more it doesn't overtake you it doesn't make you bitter and resentful and cruel. It makes you your second thought or the first thought happens a lot quicker and it goes and that applies to your body, applies to your motherhood, applies to all these different things. You can make one mistake as a mother and it will haunt you. It will haunt you. But if you remind yourself of all the good you're doing, eventually like that will soften that first thing of just like pulling yourself down into the depths of like, I'm just a bad person. But yeah, I really want to remind people that, my efforts are not because I just like inherently don't have these negative thoughts. I have terrible thoughts about my body. I have terrible thoughts about myself. I have terrible thoughts about my motherhood. I have terrible thoughts about my business and my potential and where I'm going. And the self-doubt. When people are like, wow, you're killing it. And I'm like, am I? Am I? I had no idea. Like, is that what it looks like? Okay, because I've been doubting it. I am struggling with all of the things that you're likely also struggling with, maybe in different levels and a different like more is more. It might be bigger. It might be smaller. I don't know. But I'm always trying to learn. I'm always trying to reframe. I'm always trying to be better for it because I just want to live a full life and I don't want to spend so much time getting stuck in these patterns of, feeling less than and in lack or sidelining myself. Listen, jealousy can sideline you. A lack of self-love can sideline you. Feeling guilt or shame will sideline you. So those are things we have to work through all of those things if we're going to be able to step into our lives and live them fully. I agree. I often believe that, you know, all these things pop up for us no matter where we are on the continuum. But I think what we do have, and just to give this like level of encouragement, because I'm certain this is you. The further along we get, the better we get at noticing, working through it and getting to the other side quickly. Not always quickly, like in terms of a timeline, but I say that often. It's like that never changes. The imposter syndrome, the doubt, the guilt, the, I don't know, maybe it's too late. All of us have those feelings. I think we just get better and better and better at working through them so that they don't hold us back for months, days, potentially even years, right? So that's the chiseling. That's the growth. Yeah, I think when you're in your 20s, you think you just act like your whole life is ahead of you. So you don't, you want to speed through things and fix them quicker as you get older, because you're just like, wow, we're halfway through. I don't want to waste any more time, any more energy, any more that I spent my sorry like, I think all of us will agree if you're over the age of 35 and you've existed in a 20 year old body at any point and you hated it so much, you're just like, I will never be 20 again. How dare you? So now I'm like, I'll never be 41 again. I'm going to be 50. And then I'm going to be like, man, I wish I had acted my age at 41. Like I wish I had more fun. I wish I did more things. I'm going to be 60 one day and I'm going to look back at my 50s. I just I want to live all of them a lot more intentionally and with a lot more passion for it because not that I wasted my 20s, but I hid. I sidelined my 20s. Me too. Well it's also having kids. Yeah, I mean, for sure. That kind of does it too. I'm sure you felt this like my friend was like, oh, this is my outfit. I'm going to the club and I was sitting at home nursing my baby and like oh my gosh yes but then we were out at the clubs by the time they were home with the babies like it was a flip of life. It is true, yeah it was a flip of life. Oh Sarah you're such a dream. Okay I want to do some rapid fires with you, And you're like me that I know you're not rapid, so it's okay. There's no stress. These are great questions, by the way. What is something you had to unlearn to become the woman you are today? That you're not actually going to love the way you look in the sense of like butterflies in your belly every day. The same way that you don't look at your kids and go, oh my God, I just love them so much. It's a lot of acts of love and like 5% butterflies. I like that. When do you feel most powerful? Why did I think spray tan? I shouldn't say that. I feel the most powerful when I'm surrounded by women who I respect and admire and bring like a really, like just really being surrounded by women that I admire. It always levels you up. It always levels you up. Yeah. I love that that's when you feel your most powerful. That's Fantastic. Again, reiterates who you are. What does confidence feel like in your body? So when you're feeling confident, what does that feel like in your body? I always tell people that confidence actually feels like my knees shaking and stepping forward anyways, because some of the most confident things I've ever done, I was absolutely terrified while doing them. And I'm so glad that that was the case so that I can say like, oh, I did that confident thing with knees shaking and not, oh, I did that totally knowing who I was, totally not having a self-doubt. So I really think that more of us have to understand that confidence is like love for ourself is action more than it is feeling. Feeling comes later. Love. Yeah. What's one thing younger Sarah would be really proud of right now? Oh, I think she'd be so proud of the fact that she is in her own little corner of the world, created a weird little ripple effect. I always thought I'd be on a stage. I always thought, like, I was a very chatty kid. I was always very talkative. I always thought I'd be on a stage, and I went through all this vocal training, and I was a pianist, and I did all this stuff, and I had incredibly bad stage fright for music only. Wow. But I never, it's amazing, at six, I wanted all these things for myself, and I envisioned a stage, and I never would have known that this stage even existed. These things didn't exist. And now I get to show up and do this job that kind of is like a stage and I get to perform and storytell and do all the things that I've always loved doing. And so I think she would be really proud that she's living the dream, even if it looked different than what she because the dream, the dream she had was for something she didn't even know existed. Yeah. So good. Last one. What makes someone truly iconic to you? Oh, I mean, it's so cliche, but just like being unapologetic about who they are and being willing to be wrong. A willingness to be wrong and a willingness to change. That really shows me, so much power and passion in a person. Yeah, I think that's iconic. You're that. Thanks. I'm doing my best. Post those pictures. I know. I need to. They're so good. Do it for Jen. Do it for Jen. She wants to see them. And I'm not the only one. Okay I'm gonna do it. Yeah, you're an absolute joy. Thank you again from the bottom my heart for what you have done and I feel like I need to say this because I have this intuitive feeling with you that this is like the tipping point to the next chapter of something really incredible for you. Yeah I just I don't know what that is but I don't know either and I love that. There's something that I'm I'm certain you're going to open doors for us, and it's going to be a really beautiful new expansion of Sarah. Thank you. Today has been really really beautiful and honestly I can't wait for people to see this. Me too. It's gonna blow their minds. It is. It's gonna be kind of, this is nothing I've ever done before. Really? No, 90s Claudia Schiffer vibes? I love it. I know I couldn't stop thinking about it. It's so good. Thanks for being my muse. It was really good. Alana here my like associate manager literally cried on set. I cried too, we actually cried together. Yeah, there was a tear or two. Everyone on set was just like so like that's what I mean. Like sometimes you can feel your best when you're just surrounded by people who want the best for you, too, because like that's who I want to be for other people. Like I want everybody to live their best life. I don't want to just live my best life by myself. Yeah. I want everybody to. Yes. Yeah, I'm so glad that I one day with a baby on the boob decided to like hit publish on a blog post named after my two children at the time, Gemma Birdie and Maya Papaya. And like 18 years later. Who would have thought? So, yeah, take the chance. You never know. It's like chef's kiss. Thank you so much. Thank you.