We kick off 2023 by speaking about sibs and access to technology with one of our past Chairs and Associate Research Professor at the University of Kansas, Shea Tanis.
Resources:
Music Credit: Hope by Scandinavianz | https://soundcloud.com/scandinavianz
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
We kick off 2023 by speaking about sibs and access to technology with one of our past Chairs and Associate Research Professor at the University of Kansas, Shea Tanis.
Resources:
Music Credit: Hope by Scandinavianz | https://soundcloud.com/scandinavianz
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Welcome to the sibling Leadership Network podcast. The sibling Leadership Network is a national nonprofit whose mission is to provide siblings of individuals with disabilities the information, support and tools to advocate with their brothers and sisters and to promote the issue is important to us and our entire families. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the sibling Leadership Network podcast. We're kicking off the new year with one of our past board chairs Shea Tanis to talk about access to mainstream technology. Shea thank you so much for joining us today.
Shea Tanis:Hey, it's absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Chris Berstler:Please tell us about yourself and your experience with the sibling community.
Shea Tanis:Yeah, sure, well, um, I am a sibling myself. So, you know, ingrained in me are those experiences the life experiences. I am an associate research professor at the University of Kansas, certainly my experience has been driven by my sibling experience. I have a brother with significant traumatic brain injury. And he's turning 50 this year. So a really big milestone. My experience with the community has been really very much the SLN, one of the early board chairs, and was there maybe the second meeting of the genesis of the sibling Leadership Network. And so just incredibly thrilled to see the growth, the expansion, and the vision and mission just expand to what we had hoped so many years ago, would be from this group. So happy to join. And I would say my background is really my PhDs and special education, severe profound self determination, family professional partnerships, but I have ventured into this world of technology, been working in it for over a decade, and it's really hard to leave.
Chris Berstler:So tell us about your current work with cognitive access to mainstream technology? And why siblings should know more about it?
Shea Tanis:Sure, well, um, my journey into understanding technology, and specifically cognitive access to technologies has been, as I said, over a decade, and I would say a lot of the work that I do falls in some of our traditional buckets. We've got research, policy, advocacy, and really rights based acknowledgement. So some of the work has early years started on just demonstrated the rights of people with cognitive disabilities, to technology and information access, we put out a national and then adopted international Declaration of Rights in 2013. That has gone around really demonstrating the principles for people with cognitive disabilities to have access to technology. From that really has emerged lines, multiple lines of research, some around what are cognitive accessibility features that can be built into technology solutions? Traditionally, we have seen physical and sensory disabilities addressed in technologies much better than cognitive. And so there's a lot of room for growth in terms of what are the best features? What are the best technologies? What are the barriers to technologies that people are experiencing? And what are the the areas where we can see tremendous growth and innovation? So we talk a lot with developers. So that's the research and kind of looking at what is the data around technology utilization. In the policy area, we focus not only on the rights, but also seeing systemic change across the nation on technology access. We spearhead a systems change effort called technology first, which is really focused on systems change and ensuring that folks with cognitive disabilities, and frankly, all disabilities have access to technologies both through training, policy, funding, as well as education. And then also looking at advocacy. So I have the luxury of working with some tech companies, startup companies, and others interested in technology and being able to share experiences partner with users with cognitive disabilities, our brothers and sisters, being able to tell those folks how to do inclusive research, how to communicate what is the needs that they have, and demonstrating that it really is a large consumer base. There is a return on investment for our community, our brothers and sisters, and it frankly, is a real need. As we see technology become so ubiquitous. It's a need for quality of life. And so that advocacy and education around, making sure that technology is not just something that's a luxury for folks, but is something that is a necessity for real, true community living. So that's a lot of what we do a lot of what my team and I do, but why is it important to siblings? Is that the other part of the question? I think, I think why it's important to siblings, again, is because our future is going to be driven and is already driven very much by technology. And if we continue to isolate folks, our brothers and sisters, by not allowing or not providing opportunities to engage in technology, in my opinion, we're just creating new walls of institutions, and those become digital walls. Those become barriers that really disengage our brothers and sisters from access to what are the opportunities in the world? So things like money management, so much has gone digital? How can we be able to do you know, transactions? How can we adapt our education to support our brothers and sisters and being able to do those interactions, as we see growth? You know, change it is, is not money, actual hard money and dollar bills and change aren't used as frequently anymore? How do we educate around that? Not only that, but communication, just generalized communication and information. So much has become digital. And not only has it become digital, but there are also new ways of doing accommodations modifications, that allow our brothers and sisters so much more access, if at least they know about it, so many overlays onto web platforms that will change the content. So it's understandable. Text to Speech is huge. For our brothers and sisters, to be able to understand what's going on videos, tutorials, there's so much more access to information and engaging with communities through digital and technology platforms, that if we don't ask siblings, as brothers and sisters and loved ones, don't help advocate for the necessity for that we are really not supporting our brothers and sisters and being able to access what is going to be the future of community.
Chris Berstler:It's exciting.
Shea Tanis:It is. it's alot. It's hard, because it is so exciting in there, it never ends. There's always innovation in this space.
Chris Berstler:So, I often hear the term assistive technology. Can you tell us what the difference is between technology and mainstream technology? Sure.
Shea Tanis:So the problem of technology has always plagued our, our discipline, we see a lot of, you know, terms used in different ways. And we see certainly them applied when they become really exciting and innovation, terms like self determination, where it was adopted, without having a real consistency with terminology. And so the assistive technology does have a federal definition, it does have a definition in the Assistive Technology Act in law. The key I think, in that terminology is that assistive technology is intended to mediate an impairment. And so what differentiates our discussions a lot of the time around assistive technology, and we generally use or our team and we advocate for the use of a term called, or a term we use technology solutions. Really what differentiates it is that a lot of the other technologies that we see, assistive technology really came around when people were customized and specializing technologies to address a certain impairment. So communication devices, augmentative, and alternative communication devices, those were specifically designed for people with disabilities to be able to communicate a specific function to mediate that specific impairment. But with the advancements of technologies, we've seen it that there are so many more technologies that integrate, what are features and solutions that allow for mediating impairments, but so much more. And so, you know, generally when we're talking about more mainstream versus assistive assistive is intended to mediate a specific impairment, and that's how it's funded. And that's really critical to the conversation. Because part of what we do in our technology first and systems change efforts is looked to modernize that language, where there's a lot of when we fund technologies, it's really specific to a type of technology and sometimes we see technologies pared down and stripped of some of the other features just so they can be applied to mediate that specific impairment. Well let's be real are technologies are We're multi dimensional, they're multifunctional now. And so when we're trying to incorporate an advanced not only policy, but utilization, we're talking about really what are technologies that come off the shelf that aren't specialized for a certain person that aren't specialized for a certain impairment, but can be used across people that with universal design, and cognitive accessibility built in. But just to expand a little on the reason we use technology solutions, is there's a couple reason that this is advantageous not only for practice, but also for policy. So first of all, using technology solutions, it allows us to use it as an umbrella term. So we can talk about mainstream technologies, we can talk about assistive technologies, we can talk about, what are the technologies to come the future technologies under an entire umbrella. By using the term solutions, we we focus on goal oriented approaches, it means that we really are looking for the right fit of a technology that matches a person's person's goals and what they're hoping to have that technology function as, rather than a specific thing that's going to mediate an impairment. Another reason we'd like to use that technology solutions, terminology is because it fits with our colleagues who are engineers and designers. This is language that they use. This is language that meets their needs, and also is reasonable when we start to look at how we do user experience and user design. The other reason we use the solution is for that very reason that we see so many technologies that are multifunctional, that we can see, they don't do like a smartphone, it doesn't do one thing, it does 1000s of things. And by not looking at the assistive part where it's a specific function, if we start to look at solutions, we're looking at a whole approach of that. Another reason it's valuable is because it doesn't say it's just one specific technology that we're going to fund. It's not a, you know, specific brand. It's not a specific type. But it really encompasses when we say solution, we're really focusing on the process for problem solving, which is really advantageous for family members, because it means there's a whole slew of opportunities that technologies can serve not just one specific one that we have a menu that we can choose from. And so you know, it really is with this goal, person directed approach that we like to think about all the technologies as solutions and use that term, when we're looking at policy, practice and research as siblings ensuring to make sure that we have all the opportunities for our brothers and sisters.
Chris Berstler:How can sibs best support our siblings, who could benefit from improved access to technology solutions.
Shea Tanis:So much at this point is about the advocacy and inclusion. One big thing that we as brothers and sisters can do is share technologies with our brothers and sisters, ensuring that they have opportunities to see what we're using to try out what we're using. So we have an idea and they have some opportunities, you know, we as siblings naturally have this affinity for giving our siblings more opportunities than others. And giving them opportunities to try to play with to engage with technologies, is something that oftentimes we see the siblings are the ones who are more willing to do that than maybe our parents are, because of their discomfort with technologies. So it's very much generational, we have seen, but having us as leaders, in terms of providing opportunities for technology is huge. Also, as we always do, continuing to advocate that our siblings be part of the conversation. That means with things like many states are going through digital equity programs, they have digital Equity Act programs that are funded in the states now, making sure that our siblings are part of those communities, or at least our voices are heard, so that when these new broadband accessibility features and policies are built, they're built with our siblings in mind. And you know, frankly, we do we spend a lot of time doing advocacy with and alongside our brothers and sisters, this is just another opportunity for us to enter a space where it's not always a natural consideration, to have our community engaged in that conversation, but yet it is essential Talk to future supports.
Chris Berstler:If a sibling, a sibling who's listening out there wants to access or get process started accessing technology solutions for their sim, how would they begin their journey?
Shea Tanis:It's a great question. Um, I think, you know, we always start with, what is the sibling what? What does that sibling with a disability, what technology could help them bridge the gap between their current skill set, and where they want to achieve something. So let's say let's say we are looking to advance employment. Okay, say they want to get a job. One place to start is look at different jobs that can be done online, look at different technologies like zoom, that we can help them learn to help fit that help them achieve the goal. Many siblings will say, hey, they want a relationship they want, they want friends. They want, we want to help them get friends. That's our goal. So what can be our role as siblings? Well, we can help in not restricting access to technologies like social media, but helping give opportunities to scaffold learning. And so again, it always starts with what the sibling wants, what they're looking for, where we can help. But I can guarantee you almost every I mean, I there's not a domain of living, that you could give me where we can't find technology solutions to aid in advancing supports. That goes with home that goes with leisure that goes with communication. There is so many solutions out there that can enhance that can provide new opportunities. That part of the criticism we always get part of the the barriers we hear is there's just too much. There's too much out there to know what the heck is out there, give me a catalog, I can't tell you how many projects, national and state level and local have been focused on creating technology catalogs. Okay. The challenge with this is that technology moves at such a pace, that the moment you've created a catalog, everything's been upgraded and outdated. It is just a problem. And because there's so much available, so the thing we we say is start with the technologies that you know and use, I mean, what's familiar to you, because guess who's gonna be the largest one of the largest supports for your sibling and learning, and also dealing problem solving new upgrades of those technologies. So do the technologies, you know, find the ones that will enhance their goals, the things they want out of life? Siblings are awesome at knowing what their said hopes and dreams for the future, and being able to help realize those dreams. And technology is just one support to be able to do that.
Chris Berstler:In regards to starting that process. Do you have any advice about how a sibling might get funds or how to fund that search?
Shea Tanis:so when we do national research, and we have some that we've been doing for some time, we'll be updating our surveys from state operated agencies or state DD agencies, also provider agencies around what are the barriers technology? Lo and behold, the number one response they always say is funding. Okay. Our research demonstrates that in states, there's an average of 12 different funding authorities that are available for technology as providers there that doesn't include grants that doesn't include what can be fundraising, that doesn't include family resources, that doesn't include donations, there are so many resources but yet the challenge has always been it's too expensive. Well, let's prioritize. Let's start by prioritizing. First of all, when you look at the National opportunities for people to use technology, folks with under I think it's $27,000 annually, prioritize having a phone Okay, so the priority rounding using technology means that even when there are limited resources, the resources are spent on those technologies because of the necessity and we have to start considering that access. But practically, what are some technology solutions? ones that and how do we deal with funding? Well, the Assistive Technology Act programs, the A TAP programs in every state, they're funded through the Assistive Technology Act, there is one in every state, it is one of their core charges to be able to list in a state funding opportunities for technology. So on their states, they should, because it's a core function, have opportunities to funding. Unfortunately, our field tends to default to Medicaid funding, or to alternative funding sources for technologies. But let's be honest, the majority of families don't use Medicaid to gain their own technologies. They look for deals on Black Friday, and they look for deals where they can get multiple pieces of equipment for cheap, right, they look for family plans. And so we need to start, as we do with ourselves, thinking about those as priorities for our siblings. But there are so many resources out there. Broadband is another one where people say, you know, there's just no funding for broadband, and there's no access. Now, I don't deny that there are peaks and valleys of access, that there still has a lot of work to be done. Certainly, the advancements and 5g and some of the technologies, we hope are going to solve those problems over time. But let's look at what's being funded. I mean, you had $14.2 billion invested in the affordable connectivity program for the US. Okay, that has requirements to do, but it gives people money for access to broadband, we also have $42 billion for the broadband equity access and deployment program, that's grants to states to ensure that people have access to broadband. So guess what, we need to be part of that conversation. So when the access piece comes to our family members, and there is a lack of resources, we are really taking advantage of the resources that are available. And not just simply saying we don't have access to there are definitely solutions for funding.
Chris Berstler:Awesome. This is all great information. Thank you so much. What barriers still exist for marginalized communities who want to access technology solutions?
Shea Tanis:Yeah, I think there certainly are, there are barriers to you know, I don't think and our colleagues in tech companies will tell you, we don't understand cognitive yet. We are recognizing that it's a necessity, that we need to start understanding how to build in cognitive features. But we don't really have the data and information yet to demonstrate impact, to demonstrate what products are best, what features are best. So I think a lot of the barriers are information, information of resources, research, information on data. Those are really big barriers, in terms of making sure that we get to a point where there are products that we can use. But the other barrier that we see. And it was one of the big questions, we asked State Directors of DD services and providers across the nation. Second to resources was knowledge. And that meant knowledge about technologies that have accessibility features built in knowledge about how to train people on technologies, like what are best practices, and how you train around technology solutions. Making sure that providers and our educators and those working with our brothers and sisters have some knowledge about technology and have ideas of how to integrate technology into their lives. And so when you know, once you move past, the initial funding is my barrier, it becomes about knowledge. And we have got to and it's a lot of what we try to do. But there needs to be more programs where we train people about technology so that there is opportunity. And we just don't have enough. We don't have enough data to validate it. And we don't have enough folks out there who we call our tech champions. And oftentimes our tech champions are our brothers and sisters with disabilities. They are the ones who are saying we need this. We want this. We need your help in getting this. But we need more of those technology champions who are willing to train others about why it's important, why it should be integrating and What resources and solutions are available, but it is hard, because it's always changing because there's so much innovation, we just need more people, we need more people interested, engaged, and ready to deploy, to be able to support this kind of innovation and really movement towards access.
Chris Berstler:So for any potential tech champion, who may be listening out there, what is the best way for them to try to get involved in this process?
Shea Tanis:Oh, that's a great question. Um, I think, you know, initially, it's, it's finding your like minded partners. Um, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna be selfish. And I'm gonna say, they're great. You said, there's, you know, 67, you said, University Centers on excellence and developmental disabilities, many of which do have a framing around some technology access, that's a great place to start. There are also folks that are working in policy. These folks that are working on digital equity plans, they often have open forums where they are looking for consumer engagement. They're looking for those users, the user experience, to be able to integrate and have in those listening sessions, that's a great place for you to go. Another thing for you to do is if you aren't already in a tech first state, helps make sure your state is a tech first state. And we have 22 states that we have recognized as having initiatives around technology first, meaning that they've already started the process of engaging in a systems change effort. And it's, you know, relatively easy contacting our team at the state of the states at KU, we can connect you with the folks that are in the state that are working on technology first. And that's a great place to start, because usually there are councils, statewide councils affiliated. Sometimes there's legislation that's implied. And many times those are the folks that are going to be able to ingrain siblings as part of the grassroots effort.
Chris Berstler:What impact has the pandemic had on access to technology solutions?
Shea Tanis:Well, I would say so I've been in this field over a decade. And the pandemic was the tipping point. So the pandemic not only demonstrated, what was the immense reliance on technology for information, but it also demonstrated that if you didn't have access to that information, your life was at risk, because you didn't know what was happening in terms of how to stay safe, what practices to use, where to get your booster shots, or your where to get treatment, where to get tests. And so the pandemic really demonstrated tangibly, the Reliance our society has on technology. And so what it also tangibly demonstrated is that if you didn't have access to that, it was going to be life threatening. And when you look at the impact of the pandemic, on our community, our brothers and sisters with significant cognitive disabilities or those with intellectual disabilities, the data shows that ours was the second most impacted community throughout the pandemic. I think it was the New York Times who called those with disabilities and the aging community community, the, the disregarded and the disposables, that occurred from the pandemic. And so it really demonstrated our reliance on technology. But so in turn, the positive side of that, is it also really catalyzed and accelerated? What were new problems to be solved with technologies. So across the states, we saw what were called appendix K waivers, which were emergency waivers for home and community based services, many of which those waivers include technology solutions to address the emergency needs, things like remote telehealth telehealth services, things like electronic signatures to ensure that people's case plans went through a lot of technologies, medication dispensers, things that were not traditionally used in our waiver services, but were allowable because it was a necessity of the pandemic. Now that we have seen some of this movement we have, you know, Oh, the ARPA funds the American rescue act plan programs. And when we do the research on it, every state except for one has added technology into their arpa. It's called ARPA for short plans for the state. So we are now investing in a lot of new pilot programs, a lot of new innovations across the states, there's some really exciting things that we're state seeing states work on with their ARPA funding, we're involved with looking at digital health, wearables in what are accessible in those. In Oklahoma, we have some colleagues we work with in Ohio around broadband accessibility, and what are telehealth services. But that's just a couple, almost every state is engaged in a lot of nuance in these programs, to be able to not only get kind of access for people and learn about that, but also to maintain some of the services that were applied during the pandemic, because our brothers and sisters and our families have demonstrated that, you know, it's not a one size fits all, we need a customized approach to our services and supports. And many of us want hybrid approaches, that means technology driven and in person. And so we're seeing a lot of movement. And it's really exciting, because it means we have to modernize. And we have to really shift, what has been our traditional approaches. One of our concerns, however, is that we have a whole bunch of money that is being deployed in a very short period of time, it has to be deployed originally by 2024, now extended to 2025. But they're upwards of millions of dollars in states like $42 million. In some states, the challenge is for us as a community is not only to get enough great programs out there to see, but to also capture information on impact. So that while we have these new great pilot programs, they don't become the one and done, they become something that we have enough evidence to then sustain and advocate for over time once this initial and emergency funding is completed. So there's a lot of opportunity right now, a lot of innovation going on. But it is going to be our job as advocates, and those who have to deal with the test of time, right family members, those that have loved ones, to make sure that we build a system where we help with a system that allows for long term sustainability of these solutions. Because otherwise, we've all been part of pilots, siblings have been part of a million pilots. And it's great to do the research, but it's not great. When it's a one and done. We really want to see some impact measurement, some outcome measurement, and long term sustainability for growth.
Chris Berstler:What changes need to be made to ensure access to technology solutions for the wider disability community?
Shea Tanis:Yeah, I think one is policy modernization, we have really outdated policies, in terms of state and access level where it really was specific to some of this old technology. And so we really need to focus on some policy modernization approaches, so that we can expand the access. So that that, you know, that's one thing. I think also ensuring that people think of technology as a necessity for life, rather than a luxury. That's it, that's a shift in thinking for many people. Because technology solutions end up on the back burner for folks with cognitive disabilities, when it's just we want to make sure they have in home health care, or nursing, you know, supports technology ends up being on the backburner where it can be initial solutions we start to think of, and so it takes a little bit of a change in thinking to allow people you know, it's almost like and I, I like it too, when I learned about job coaching. This idea that like, you know, once you've learned about searching for a job for folks with disabilities, you start to look at the world in a different way. You start to go into any place and you say, Oh, I know job will fit that person. I know a job help. Oh, I know. It's, I see you have this need. I know somebody who can do that. I think it's a different lens. That once you start thinking about technology solutions as an integral part of our everyday experience, you recognize what an asset acity it becomes for everything we do. And so I think we have to as siblings, as family members, and sure people don't forget our siblings, and think of it as an extra, they think of it as a necessity. And that's, that's a lot of what we have always done as family members has changed other people's things around opportunities, and access, and doing that with our brothers and sisters. And it's just gonna take louder voices, it's gonna take us coming together to say, No, this is not a luxury, this is a necessity for their future quality of life, for their happiness for them to be able to integrate into what is our everyday experiences. But we talk about a what are the routines and rhythms of American culture rate, and that's, that's what we want. And then there's no mistaking that the natural routines and rhythms have to deal with technology, all you have to do is sit on a train or sit on a plane and see everybody with their faces down. So we, I think what we need to do is help push our society further in understanding the need for that culture shift. And the other thing we can do is tell our stories, tell stories of how technology has supported our loved ones. So what are the experiences that they want to have? Well, you know, my brother types every day, he's writing, he's, he's learning to write with new technology tools, you know, many of the word programs that he didn't have access to before, he's learning, it's scaffolding, being able to tell those stories, to demonstrate the impact is going to be really important. And we need to have more of those,
Chris Berstler:what is the best way to get involved or to tell our story?
Shea Tanis:Yeah, to tell your story. Um, you know, there, if you have a state, that is a tech first state, they are collecting those stories on a regular basis, which is great, because we see that the other thing is, get on a platform, get on a, you know, a Facebook post or any of those social media and say, Hey, look at this great innovation that's working for me, we are known for our networking opportunities, right. And the more we share that internally, the larger it grows, right? It's, it's that drop in the pond that just expands and expands, the rings expand. So we can simply do it by sharing, you know, subnets, a great place to start sharing stories about that. Our partners there at the sibling Support Project, sharing stories across these networks, ensuring people say, hey, you know, oftentimes we find technologies we want to use by talking to our friends. What what do you use that works for you? Hey, what kind of phone? Did you get the news such and such phone? What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? That's a great opportunity for us to network across what is our natural community. And many times we're able to share those solutions across family members. And hold you know, we've had conferences where families have shared, hey, this is the solution that worked for us. You might find it useful here solutions like it, that you might find solutions, you know, meetups, all of those provide us opportunities to spread the word and share our stories.
Chris Berstler:What possible innovations are you personally excited to see in the future of this field?
Shea Tanis:You know, the beauty of working in this space, as there are always new innovations. And there's always something new coming out. One of my favorite things to do. And it's very, it's definitely like geek out academic type thing is I like to look online at every year, the consumer electronics showcase has, you know, new products, new startups, and I go through it and I look for what are cool products, right? What are things that might be useful. And it's interesting that good products, they do have what is a category for accessibility. But oftentimes, the products that I enjoy the most are the ones that aren't in that disability specific category, the ones that are just built well with universal design that are really cool. And so there's so many innovations. It's hard to pick one I will say for a while, I have been really interested in what is haptics, which is the sense of touch. And that technology. There is something called the tactile internet, which we're waiting for 5g which is that advanced broadband to catch up to to us. Essentially, imagine giving a loved one a hug and then feeling the sensation of that with a shirt on. Okay, that's a sense of touch. The reason I really enjoy haptics is because I first so much We have our siblings who have struggled with different types of communication sources. It adds a nuanced modality for us to do so much. And again, you know, gestures, movement communicating, you know, think about our brothers and sisters who are nonverbal, how much more they communicate by a gesture and a function, we can capture that and communicate that with new technologies. Right, there's so the haptics is something I've been personally really excited about. I mean, we see AI movements, I will say, AI concerns me, artificial intelligence, we've done some research on ethics of that. It is really important for us as siblings to be vigilant, it's important to know that, you know, we, we don't want to all over automate, because so much of what we have advocated for so long is self direction and self determination. And over automation, the assumption that we need to automate for people's needs is something that I think we have to be vigilant of. But I think it also opera, it provides a lot of nuanced opportunities that we hadn't thought through. But I, you know, there's just so many technologies that I mean, I think healthcare wearables are going to, if we train and make them accessible to our siblings, could expand longevity, you know, and be able to monitor self awareness to increase self awareness of our of our bodies and their bodies. That's hugely important. And then I guess, finally, the one that really excites me is making sure that now we have so many ways of making information and communication accessible, that it is just opened up doors, to making sure that our brothers and sisters are part of a larger community. So connected communities, allowing for them to to meet with others without having to physically be there just expands the potential of social networks for support that I think we just never had before. It's hard to it's hard to say one.
Chris Berstler:It all sounds so exciting. Thank you for.
Shea Tanis:It's tremendously exciting. And I will say, when we get involved in the conversations with developers and engineers, it gets even more exciting because of just this generation, and brainstorming and innovation is just crazy. And we're seeing so many more opportunities with inclusive design that that really can make really amazing products and solutions.
Chris Berstler:Awesome. Shea, thank you so much for sharing all of this exciting new information with everyone. I'm definitely excited for the future. I hope some of our listeners are as well. Any resources that che has mentioned you can find in the description below. So thank you so much for joining us che it's been an absolute pleasure.
Shea Tanis:Thank you so much for having me. And it is always a pleasure to join the SLN with what are all my brothers and sisters who I've grown relationships with over time and we're just so thrilled to see this type of, you know, podcast and information going out through the SLN so thanks for having me.
Chris Berstler:Thank you. Find resources, tools and information about the sibling experience on sibling leadership dot for the sibling Leadership Network is a nonprofit, and we rely on support from our audience. Find the donation button on our homepage and contribute to the ever growing sibling movement.