This week I’m talking to Jo-Anne Liakakos, MA, LPC, NCC, CPCS of Major Counseling Solutions and Consulting in Alpharetta, GA. I wanted to interview Jo-Anne since she is a therapist and counselor who works with adolescents with substance use and general life issues, as well as adults with eating and personality disorders (and a bunch of other stuff). Jo-Anne and I discuss how we met and what it was like unpacking my involvement in enthusiastic sobriety programs. I ask Jo-Anne what a licensed (not certified, licensed) counselor needs as far as education and internships and supervision to actually work with clients one-on-one (spoiler alert: it’s a lot) and what appropriate counseling and treatment look like for young people.
This is a great episode for parents who are looking to find help for a teenager or young adult, or who are curious about whether or not to keep their child in one of Bob Meehan’s programs.
You can find Jo-Anne by visiting her website here.
Wanna come on the podcast? Email ontheemmispod@gmail.com
Or text us at: 404-537-2392
Instagram: @ontheemmis and @essurvivors
Facebook: @ontheemmis and @meehanprogramsurvivors
Twitter: @ontheemmis and @essurvivors
Twitch: twitch.tv/ontheemmispod
YouTube: On the Emmis Podcast
Website: enthusiasticsobrietyabuse.com
Instagram:
@ontheemmis
@essurvivors
Tik Tok:
@ontheemmis
linktr.ee/ontheemmispod
Shop to support!
https://www.redbubble.com/people/themrsleibler/shop?asc=u
This week I’m talking to Jo-Anne Liakakos, MA, LPC, NCC, CPCS of Major Counseling Solutions and Consulting in Alpharetta, GA. I wanted to interview Jo-Anne since she is a therapist and counselor who works with adolescents with substance use and general life issues, as well as adults with eating and personality disorders (and a bunch of other stuff). Jo-Anne and I discuss how we met and what it was like unpacking my involvement in enthusiastic sobriety programs. I ask Jo-Anne what a licensed (not certified, licensed) counselor needs as far as education and internships and supervision to actually work with clients one-on-one (spoiler alert: it’s a lot) and what appropriate counseling and treatment look like for young people.
This is a great episode for parents who are looking to find help for a teenager or young adult, or who are curious about whether or not to keep their child in one of Bob Meehan’s programs.
You can find Jo-Anne by visiting her website here.
Wanna come on the podcast? Email ontheemmispod@gmail.com
Or text us at: 404-537-2392
Instagram: @ontheemmis and @essurvivors
Facebook: @ontheemmis and @meehanprogramsurvivors
Twitter: @ontheemmis and @essurvivors
Twitch: twitch.tv/ontheemmispod
YouTube: On the Emmis Podcast
Website: enthusiasticsobrietyabuse.com
Instagram:
@ontheemmis
@essurvivors
Tik Tok:
@ontheemmis
linktr.ee/ontheemmispod
Shop to support!
https://www.redbubble.com/people/themrsleibler/shop?asc=u
ontheemmis
Hello hello and thank you for listening to the on the Emmis Podcast where I interview survivors of Bob Meehan's enthusiastic sobriety programs and any other kind of high control coercive control group such as multi-level marketing schemes. And survivors of other abusive adolescent young adult treatment slash behavioral programs of which there are many.
So thank you for being here today.
This episode is I think I say this every time but. This episode is great I interview Joanne Liakakos who is a licensed professional counselor in Alpharetta Georgia she was my therapist back in 2012 from 2012 to 2015 or sorry 2017 when I was starting to unpack. Some of and we talk about this a little bit when I was starting to unpack what I was ready to unpack um from enthusiastic sobriety programs and we get a little bit into I think it's really important that people understand that it's not like. The abuse that we got in these programs just affected us while we were there. It affected pretty much every area of our life afterwards and so we we tie a little bit of of what I went through there and and and everything I came away from. Those programs with and how it I don't want to say defined but informed um, kind of what I did after I left and Joanne is just um, she's just a really good person. She's an amazing therapist. And so I get to ask her questions. You know, not only do we talk about what I went through and what she helped me with but I get to ask her questions about you know what is it like first of all what kind of education. Do you need to have. To be a licensed professional counselor which is different from a certified alcohol and drug counselor I don't I'm not sure exactly what the the exact terminology is but whatever the certification qualifications are in Georgia because. Certification and licensing are very different and she is licensed and so I get into the kind of education that she has that you know ah is kind of the standard in order to work with especially adolescents and young adults.
02:45.59
ontheemmis
So we get into that and we get into you know she works with adolescents and um, specifically with adolescents who might have substance use um not necessarily you know disorder or abuse but substance use and um, and and. You know, disorder and abuse as well. She she handles kind of the whole spectrum. So we talk about what what does it look like to get really good. You know appropriate? Um, ah research and time tested treatment and support. For a teenager and their families who are dealing with this kind of thing because um, you know and I don't I don't know that any of us that went through Bob's programs would know that as and even those of us who work there because that's not what those programs provide. So anyway, I'm not you know I kind of go off on this in the episode talking to her but I just wanted to give you ah um, some insight into what we talk about? So um, it's it's really really helpful to hear from her and what the larger. You know therapy and an actual educated licensed professional ah community thinks about you know how you deal with adolescence and young adults. So um, without further ado I'm going to. Ah, turn this over to myself I guess what am I even saying I've been really sick for like the past two weeks and I'm just now coming out of it so I'm kind of a mess but here is Joanne I hope that you enjoy her and I'll see on the other side bye.
Um, hello I am here with okay, you're gonna have to pronounce your last name for me because I'm sure I'm saying it incorrectly. So Liakakos I was saying it correctly.
12:33.74
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Hello
12:40.45
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Leah Cacos yeah very phonetically just as it looks um, right.
12:43.76
ontheemmis
Look at me. Um, yeah I same thing with my made name with sazzy people would get so tripped up over it? Um, so I'm here today with ah Joanne Liakakos ah she is a therapist as do you call yourself a therapist. Ok um.
12:58.55
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I do.
13:03.16
ontheemmis
And she works in Alpharetta Georgia and Joanne and I met um in 2012 actually when I was engaged to be married and I just had this. Inkling that we might need to get some couples therapy before our wedding and I was referred to I was referred to you by 1 of the psychologists I was working with professionally at the time. Um, and then the rest is kind of history and we will talk about that more. But.
13:30.75
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
13:37.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yes.
13:40.30
ontheemmis
Um I will I will turn it over to you to go ahead and and introduce yourself to everybody.
13:43.33
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Okay, like you said I'm Joanne Leakakcos I'm in Alpharetta georgia I am in private practice I work with a lot of adolescents families. Of course if you work with adolescents. You should be working with families.
13:58.91
ontheemmis
Yes, oh.
14:01.25
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, I Do a lot of couples work which is what brought you initially women that kind of thing eating disorders I have a background. My Bachelor's is in nutrition and dietetics and so. Ah, do a lot of eating disorders and personality disorders.
14:19.14
ontheemmis
Awesome! Um, and I really so I'm really excited about this interview for many reasons one because I'm just excited to see you again and like talk to you again? Yes, so Joanne was my therapist. Um gosh off and on like.
14:27.96
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I know I am as well.
14:36.44
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right? yep.
14:38.37
ontheemmis
When I could afford it at the time because I was still broke and didn't have health insurance um from 2013 till I mean two thousand and sixteen seventeen okay okay so before Adam and I moved to Memphis. Um, yeah, yeah.
14:46.39
Jo_Anne Liakakos
17 17 that's right, that's when it sort of ended.
14:58.11
ontheemmis
That would make sense I tried remember when I was like can we do skype therapy right? Yeah yeah, um because I had such a I had such a hard time finding a therapist here I'm so glad I found one though.
14:58.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yes, and then now Covid allows that but at the time I wasn't allowed to cross state lines. Yeah.
15:13.96
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, I'm glad to yeah.
15:18.60
ontheemmis
Um, she is phenomenal I adore her? Um, but what was I saying I already lost my train I thought that's bad. We're only 15 minutes in I'm already losing. Oh right? right? right? Yes, so yes, so you're my therapist when I lived in Georgia.
15:26.95
Jo_Anne Liakakos
That you came in for you. You had an inkling that you needed some couples therapy.
15:37.78
ontheemmis
So I was talking about why I'm excited to talk today. So yeah, that's number one is I just I haven't seen your face in 5 years so that's exciting. Um, and the other reason is because you.
15:46.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
15:57.63
ontheemmis
Helped me unpack ah like a ah level. You know, um of this stuff with enthusiastic sobriety programs and um, you know we I quit in 2009 and so I was like you know 3 to 4 to 5 you know 3 to six years out when you and I were working together and I also um, want people to understand what kind of like your educational background and kind of what the process you went through because I remember you telling me once and I was like wow you know.
16:16.58
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
16:26.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
If I.
16:32.99
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah store.
16:35.77
ontheemmis
Um, what you went through to become a therapist and because I really want people to understand the amount of education that goes into like actual professional counselors and therapists because it's a lot. Um and that you work with adolescents and um, kind of what.
16:42.21
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yes.
16:54.92
ontheemmis
Appropriate helpful. Um, ah, individualized treatment looks like for an adolescent um to compare it with what.
16:55.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
A.
17:05.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure.
17:11.55
ontheemmis
The enthusiastic soriety programs consider treatment I mean we already know it's not we already know that you know one of the things that's become very clear through all of this is that people who show up there who actually ah do have mental health issues.
17:12.95
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah.
17:26.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right? they're getting missed. Yeah.
17:28.92
ontheemmis
And or or addiction issues. They don't get help yes and people who don't kind of end up leaving with them because they are convinced. They do um and they they get you know this level of trauma that.
17:39.28
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
17:47.60
ontheemmis
You know they pat maybe didn't have already you know so it's just it's just so much more complex diagnosing and adolescent especially than just saying well you did drugs and you liked them So you're a drug addict for.
17:49.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Joy.
18:00.83
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? The amount of adolescence that you know that do drugs or try something or experiment. It's ridiculous to say that just because you smoked pot. You're you're an addict.
18:06.94
ontheemmis
14 year old
18:18.71
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I remember you telling me at 1 point. Um, you said in the like actual like licensed credentialed therapy world.
18:20.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Or that you even have an issue.
18:37.18
ontheemmis
It is a big. No-no to diagnose an adolescent as an addict or alcoholic because their brains aren't done baking. You know like you just it's just that's so dangerous and it's that's so clear by the amount of people that I've talked to who have said.
18:43.37
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
18:53.56
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You have.
18:56.51
ontheemmis
I was convinced that I was I had this terminal illness of addiction and that I was you know eventually going to die if I didn't stay on this very narrow path and so when I left I just went you know crazy and like.
18:58.86
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, right.
19:06.82
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
19:13.83
ontheemmis
Did heroin and overdosed and you know where as that may not have happened you know? Um, so that's what I'm really interested in so um, like I said ah Joanne and I met because I was engaged to be married. So.
19:14.43
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, yeah.
19:33.24
ontheemmis
A little background on that. Um I had I moved back to Atlanta so I quit working for pathway slash step 2 in October Two Thousand and nine I moved back to Atlanta in March of 2010 and I had been single for a very long time. Um I did not date in the programs. Um I was you know I grew up. Um my dad had a lot of pornography around our house.
19:55.53
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah.
20:09.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? sure.
20:11.66
ontheemmis
And it was accessible to me and so as a you know I mean like 7 eight years old I found his stashes all over the house and I checked him out you know like it was um, it was interesting to me and um, yeah.
20:21.32
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, yeah, it's curious.
20:30.13
ontheemmis
And and I just grew up. You know my dad I mean I would say my dad was a porn addict I would definitely say he he falls on that end of the spectrum I don't think anyone who looks at porn as an addict or even that it's bad. But I think my dad was probably on that end. Um.
20:40.61
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? yeah.
20:50.12
ontheemmis
And so because of that um the way he related to me was inappropriate you know and and at this point in my life I would say he was sexually abusive because of the way he talked to me some things he said to me. Um.
20:56.94
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
21:02.67
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, well even just leaving Paraphernalia around for a child to stumble upon is it's really detrimental to them.
21:09.27
ontheemmis
And right right? Yeah yes, yeah yeah, that I mean that's definitely a ah form of child abuse to leave. You know that kind of stuff. Um and then later in life to tell me that he knew.
21:20.33
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Here.
21:27.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Who yeah.
21:28.17
ontheemmis
I was looking at all of it and that ah he said something along the lines of like you know you were a dirty little girl and you liked it or you know some shit and it was like seriously you know like you know that's that's just you know that's not.
21:38.31
Jo_Anne Liakakos
A yeah.
21:47.30
ontheemmis
Parenting and that is abuse especially if you knew you know? Yeah, so um, that you know so because of that and because of the lack of again any kind of education. Um that the people that I was working with.
21:47.83
Jo_Anne Liakakos
It is abuse.
22:00.33
Jo_Anne Liakakos
A.
22:05.10
ontheemmis
Both as a client and as a staff member and Bob Mehan's programs I was labeled a porn addict and I had sex issues and I had daddy issues and you know like it was going to be really hard for me to ever find a man and i.
22:10.61
Jo_Anne Liakakos
E.
22:24.21
ontheemmis
Like wasn't supposed to watch sex scenes and movies like I had to fast forward through them and I wasn't supposed to read books that had sex scenes and if I ever fantasized about sex I was um, inviting you know, sexual assault into my life I mean I just all this crazy shit.
22:30.91
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
22:41.61
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
22:44.50
ontheemmis
And so you know it's It's really a conundrum why I didn't date. You know like like ah I mean of course I did it I was terrified I was terrified. Yeah yeah.
22:53.43
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I was going to say there was a level of protection for yourself like here's what they're saying I am well I've got to avoid that. Yeah.
23:03.95
ontheemmis
Yeah, and then any time and and no masturbation like masturbation was wrong and fucked up. Um, as for women men were encouraged women were told it was right? Um, and.
23:07.38
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, right? Oh that's great, right? right.
23:18.70
ontheemmis
You know that was my experience there and you know I was just terrified I mean anything and and and there like a symbol of Success. There is meeting your soulmate getting married. Having babies for the women having babies staying at home being a stay at home Mom and yes, yes, oh yeah, for sure and if he's not he needs to be very well vetted and like you know.
23:40.28
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Soulmate from within the program right.
23:46.82
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, right.
23:51.51
ontheemmis
And and dear himself to the people in your life and and the other thing about it too. Is you get paid more when you're married and have children. So as a single person I was constantly getting this like.
24:03.17
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Ah, yeah.
24:09.59
ontheemmis
It was all tied up in this like well if you weren't so fucked up that you can't find a husband then you'd be making more money like all those things were kind of tied up together right? So it was like it always came back to. I was doing something wrong which therefore meant I was you know making I mean shit when I left I wasn't even getting paid but prior to that I was making you know twenty five hundred bucks a month and I'd been working there for over ten years you know and I was.
24:39.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Well they keep you trapped right? and so there's all these levels of entrapment and if you marry someone who's within it then and they're in it and you're all staying in it right? There's this.
24:43.89
ontheemmis
32 years old like right right? Yes and I mean I gave them. Yeah.
24:59.40
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Level of it's an impression that you have people that you have friends and everyone is surrounding you and you've got all these people and you're not isolated at all. But you're actually quite isolated. Yeah.
25:10.29
ontheemmis
Very isolated. Yeah um and I mean let's be real like the amount of people I watch date and fall in love and get married within the tight circles of the staff. I Mean how many of those marriages you know like it's just I just I'm so glad I did not meet anyone and get married because I don't know if I would have gotten out you know, um.
25:31.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, right? Yeah well I Wonder if even throughout it all in in our work together. There were always these bits and pieces of.
25:44.59
ontheemmis
Oh.
25:49.72
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I kind of knew but then I never trusted myself and I had moments of feeling some sort of something be it clarity or this idea of this doesn't feel right? but no, no, no, it must be yeah.
25:51.96
ontheemmis
Yes. Yes.
26:05.12
ontheemmis
I'm crazy. Yeah, yes, absolutely um, that was yeah, that's a ah consistent. Um, that's something I hear consistently from people is they convince you that you can't trust yourself and.
26:14.87
Jo_Anne Liakakos
A. Right.
26:22.56
ontheemmis
I'll have to tell you which episode this is but there was an episode of the podcast where I was talking to someone and I remembered because I mean you know me I'm not like meek and quiet. Um I'm very outspoken and I have opinions about things and um.
26:31.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
26:37.16
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
26:41.58
ontheemmis
I Was like that when I first got there I was very I mean I was like I was raising some hell because I walked into this like very compliant group think kind of place and I.
26:42.51
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Business.
26:53.64
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure.
26:57.96
ontheemmis
At first was like whoa ho hold off here you know and I remembered the situation and that like what happened and it was the first time I did not trust my own instincts. You know and I mean from then on I mean.
27:10.72
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah.
27:17.15
ontheemmis
You know, especially when once I got on staff and I felt like that brought with it some a little bit more respect for my health spiritual mental physical health. Um, and I felt a little bit more comfortable speaking out.
27:27.63
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right. Um, our shore.
27:36.00
ontheemmis
It was always labeled as rebellion and it was ah, an aspect of my disease. So now that got even twisted. But I mean it it but that was like a once a month talk I had for my sponsor was like why are you being rebellious Again, you know.
27:51.81
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah I think that was a pattern throughout our work together was these moments of like no I feel this thing I have this like alarm going off but I'm going to quiet it I'm just going to keep hitting snooze because.
27:55.40
ontheemmis
Um.
28:10.71
Jo_Anne Liakakos
There's no way that could be right and it wasn't just in your relationship with Todd it was with work. It was with your family. It was everything.
28:10.73
ontheemmis
Right? Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely god everything? Yup yeah, that's so weird I just had a flash of sitting in your office and like. Because today I'll still have moments of doubting myself and doubting my instincts but not like I did then I mean holy shit I had thought about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um.
28:31.26
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, Well I mean we all do right? We're human. So We we have these vulnerabilities. We all have childhoods. We all have had experience maybe not cults. But we've all had things and. You know it flashes before you., But then we've done the work hopefully and we're able to say wait a minute. No. No take it back. You know and that's part of the process in Therapy too is learning how to do that so that you can stop those things when they happen.
28:59.36
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, um.
29:08.21
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah I think I'll just kind of like flippantly say like oh yeah I always doubt myself but it's I Just realized like.
29:10.55
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, but I don't think anybody's immune to that.
29:24.86
ontheemmis
Um, no, but I've come a really long way with that like I've gotten a lot better at trusting my instincts and going like you know what this has gotten to a point I'm not comfortable with and I'm not willing to continue I'm not giving you a second chance with this one like.
29:25.37
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, who.
29:39.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
29:42.47
ontheemmis
If this is how this is now I don't see it getting better in the future and so I'm out. Um, so yeah, so okay, so this was this was all of the stuff I came to.
29:47.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yep, yeah.
29:58.70
ontheemmis
This relationship with Todd with you know, like that's where I was and I was you know and and the other thing too was like you weren't allowed to want a relationship too much because that meant you were putting your security and the relationship. So like I was always trying to find this.
29:58.86
Jo_Anne Liakakos
It has.
30:10.11
Jo_Anne Liakakos
To.
30:17.60
ontheemmis
Balance of like I want a relationship because I would like to you know the spiritual growth that comes along with it is is very important to me which was bullshit like I just wanted a man I wanted to cuddle I wanted to have sex I wanted somebody who wanted me like and that's not weird.
30:25.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Bright. Yeah.
30:34.43
Jo_Anne Liakakos
No, not at all right? You're like I want a companion right.
30:36.32
ontheemmis
But that's completely normal. You know? Um, yeah yeah, and like if if you if you're looking for someone like that then where's God and God should be your companion and you know all that bullshit. Um.
30:46.45
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Is yeah.
30:53.59
ontheemmis
So I was trying I was really trying to stay in this place of like he may not be the one I can just enjoy myself you know and and Todd was also an a a he had about.
31:04.38
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, right.
31:12.80
ontheemmis
2 years sober when we got together and I think I had like 6 t no 2013 got sober and 96 I can't do math 14 14 urteen years sober um, and so that of course was an issue you know, but he was like I was you know 30 3 34 and he was 42 like he was a grown ass man. You know, um and he just I mean.
31:35.22
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah.
31:44.22
ontheemmis
He was so good at like like yes, yeah, manipulating me and I try you know I I try to explain to people like the very essence of a sociopath is you don't know they're a sociopath.
31:49.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Manipulating you? yeah.
32:03.23
ontheemmis
Like and I'm glad I found out pretty early on until you know? Yes, yeah.
32:04.83
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? You don't know until you know and when you know you're like oh this explains a lot and having the ability to get away in a healthy way that's healthy for you and your safety.
32:18.43
ontheemmis
Right? Yup, yeah cut it was so it was so insane. But so yes, so it so Todd and I actually met on ah online.
32:23.17
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Crucial.
32:30.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
A.
32:33.87
ontheemmis
And then he was sober and it was like oh my God it's meant to be This is wonderful and he was so nice and um and he was funny and he had a dog and he had his own place and it was like and he didn't have kids that was another thing that was like an issue.
32:37.62
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
32:48.89
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
32:51.83
ontheemmis
Um, because I did not want kids and I didn't really want to be a step mom and but finding someone in their late thirty s early 40 s who was single without children with stuff. Um, and so you know we started dating and of course my sponsor was like all you know it was like I had to do an inventory and it was like oh you're dating and it's.
32:56.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah stuff.
33:11.80
ontheemmis
Can bring up so many things and you know all that that crap and um I had to stay very in touch with you know all of them and so for the like we dated for like a year before we got engaged and he was perfect. And it was like he was so good at doing little things that like I would get mad at him for and then I would be like hey you know but I didn't like that you did this or whatever and he would be like oh you're right? like that was that was real like that. That's something I've been talking to my sponsor about and and so like that.
33:29.44
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Here.
33:38.75
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Ah, right.
33:45.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
33:45.90
ontheemmis
My gauge right? like I don't expect people to be perfect but be open to admitting when you're wrong and being open to it to working on yourself like that's all I ask.
33:55.11
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? And well when you guys came in this is funny and not sure that we've I don't know if we ever talked about it. Maybe we did afterwards. But um I think about it because I have an assessment tool that I don't give to every couple.
34:03.56
ontheemmis
Okay.
34:10.69
ontheemmis
Right? right.
34:14.23
Jo_Anne Liakakos
But I do give it to many and when they're doing premarital I for sure give them this and it you know it assesses all different levels from you know, free time and family and sex and finances and religion. And yeah.
34:21.33
ontheemmis
Right.
34:27.77
ontheemmis
I Remember the the assessment. Yeah.
34:32.92
Jo_Anne Liakakos
All these questions. It's you know a ton of questions. It is not an easy like little 20 question questionnaire. It's very in-d depth and it spits back some great information for me and tells me where you are on like this 5 level scale where the first you know.
34:34.71
ontheemmis
Right. Um, right.
34:51.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Is disconnected completely and then everything in between up to completely vitalized and like in sync and basically perfect right? We're not perfect, but really doing.
34:51.87
ontheemmis
Right.
35:00.94
ontheemmis
Um, sir are compatible. Yeah, right.
35:08.16
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Compatible and communicating well not perfect where you have no problems but perfect where we can handle the problems we can communicate we can do all this and I've given the assessment tons of times and even the most you know I gave it to people who have been married over 30 years and who were coming in with issues and you know it comes back. They're in the middle because they've got work to do I gave you guys the assessment and I get back the results and I'm sitting at my computer and I was like what how did they get like a perfect score.
35:42.59
ontheemmis
Ah.
35:46.39
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I'm like I have never seen anyone people that have been married and living together for 30 years um never get you know there's always something but it was like it almost was a red flag to me that how are they both answering exactly the same.
35:55.33
ontheemmis
Um, oh yeah, yeah, right.
36:04.92
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You do it independently, but there was this like question in my mind of really now I got to go poke holes in this instead of coming to you and saying okay well here are the areas of weakness that you need to grow and develop. It was more so you guys came back with everything perfect.
36:22.44
ontheemmis
Um, um, yeah, right? Well and I I remember you saying that to us.
36:24.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
So you have nothing to work on and and then from that point it started being like well maybe I answered it that way. But.
36:39.32
ontheemmis
I remember you being like I don't think I've ever seen this and it it bothered me because there was some questions on there that I knew Todd was like pissed off about.
36:41.22
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah.
36:50.83
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Oh really? yeah.
36:53.42
ontheemmis
You know and and like like there were some questions on there that I answered honestly like no I hate when he does this or no I don't think we're in the same place on this So I was surprised too because I knew there was some stuff and what I looking back? What I think now.
37:05.84
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
37:11.45
ontheemmis
Is he probably answered how he thought I would have wanted him to answer um, which is just what what I love yes well and what I love about those because you know the woman that I worked for in Atlanta she had a survey.
37:12.87
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure Yeah defeats the purpose right.
37:24.98
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Writes.
37:26.33
ontheemmis
Um, and so I got to see kind of what goes into those Surveys and if they're well researcharched and they're done Well um, they really can like you know, kind of nail you and I remember being like oh like I knew it wasn't good.
37:27.56
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Here.
37:32.88
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
37:40.51
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right? well and I think you teetered even then it was like right when you were breaking up you backtracked and we're like well wait wait wait.
37:42.86
ontheemmis
That we had come out looking perfect because I knew we were not and yeah, um.
37:57.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Maybe we should still work this out and there was that self-doubt again.
38:01.50
ontheemmis
Yeah, um until I remember I Um I broke into his email I was telling somewhat about that last night like.
38:07.41
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah.
38:13.95
ontheemmis
Like when you're married and you're figure married or engaged and you're you know you're figuring stuff like that out like all bets are off like I will hack into your shit to find out what is going on. Um, but I had written him this email that was like.
38:19.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
38:33.40
ontheemmis
I Just like poured my heart out. You know, like ah you know maybe I was ready for this and like you know this like that I wanted to be a conversation and nothing no response.
38:42.94
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
38:49.90
ontheemmis
For days and I was like what the fuck because he was saying he wanted to work it out So I was like I'm going to see if he's even read this email so I looked ah I hacked into his email and he had forwarded it to his mother and I was like I'm done.
38:51.54
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
39:02.00
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yes I remember that now. Yeah, right? yeah.
39:09.60
ontheemmis
I'm done like how dare you how dare you and that was it that was the breaking point for me and I remember coming in to talk to you about that and I was so I was like. I Can't like I thought I've thought I was you were gonna be so like you should not have looked at his email like that was the thing I was the most concerned about was like God so fucked up that I did that and you were like oh God I've heard much worse like that's nothing. Um, but let's talk.
39:26.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I write. Yeah. Yeah.
39:38.90
ontheemmis
About the fact that he forwarded this email to his mother? Unbelievable Um, so yeah I I I remember that it's so bizarre Oh God it was yeah I mean we could just.
39:41.95
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, so just so Bizarre behavior.
39:50.92
Jo_Anne Liakakos
But again it was there was such that like not recognizing your own signals but you knew and so there was that level again of trusting yourself where you was like no I Just can't do this but you know it was interesting. Um, when you came in.
39:55.71
ontheemmis
Um, yeah.
40:09.14
Jo_Anne Liakakos
That session after you did that? um you came in and you were like happy and you're like this this happy person and you just walked in and you sat down and I remember you saying I'm done and I was like oh because you had been going back and forth.
40:10.42
ontheemmis
Um.
40:26.55
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:28.80
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Like maybe we should work it out and you know and him being in a a was somewhat important to you at the time you know it was like this. Oh but we'll be sober together and then you came in and it was almost the happiest you'd ever looked and you just said I'm done.
40:34.40
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, oh I'm sure. Yeah.
40:48.52
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I Feel abused and manipulated I feel punished by him and you were just happier.
40:51.66
ontheemmis
Yeah, oh yeah, yep, yeah, that was um, the ah catalyst for all of that was it I had just had ah. It just been the four year anniversary of my dad's death and I had worked from home that day and I had told him like listen you know I don't know what this is going to be like because my dad died on Valentine's day so it's also just a whole weird It's like a whole thing anyway.
41:25.14
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of unresolved stuff there because he died and didn't give you that opportunity to Confront lots of things.
41:29.60
ontheemmis
Um.
41:33.96
ontheemmis
Yeah, oh yeah, yes, yes, um, and I had told him beforehand like I don't know how I'll be sometimes you know some you know it's only been this is only the fourth year and you know. Last year I really didn't feel a whole lot but the year before that I was a mess and you know I've heard from people that you know grief is not linear and and who knows you know Um I just don't know how it'll affect me and he was like okay we'll just keep me posted and he had texted me during the day and was like how are you doing and I was like you know I feel kind of. Ah, sad. But I'm ok and then he and we had ah we had an appointment with you scheduled for that night and no I oh no, no, no, no because that's the 1.
42:10.12
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
42:16.17
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Was that the one he canceled without telling you do you remember that.
42:26.79
ontheemmis
Ah, this one was the one where you were like you've sent us out to go to like a restaurant and and talk and we got outside the door of your office and tried to decide where to go and we ended up in this huge fight to the point where like.
42:33.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
42:45.97
ontheemmis
We were out there for so long that you left like you I remember you coming out the door and having to walk past us as we're screaming at each other. Ah.
42:47.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, oh yeah, oh I I hate that? Yeah, that's the worse you're like oh hi, you're still here.
43:01.37
ontheemmis
Ah, ah, but and we didn't even make it out of the parking lot like we're still here. But but so no but I do remember the one he canceled. That's right? Oh my God I forgot about that.
43:06.15
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Been an hour. Yeah.
43:12.66
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, and you were so upset about it rightfully so because he canceled it and didn't tell you and then you ended up coming. It was supposed to be the 2 of you and you ended up coming and we're was like no, he's not canceling this.
43:17.95
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, right.
43:31.67
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And you were like how does he he just took the control was I'm not I don't like what you said yesterday. So therefore I'm canceling it and again it sort of showed that level of manipulation and disregard.
43:37.33
ontheemmis
Yeah, yep. Yeah, Oh yeah, absolute disregard and and the thing that is so interesting about it that I you know I started you know before we moved in together before we moved in together he was like I said like the perfect guy.
43:59.17
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
44:02.74
ontheemmis
You know and literally the night I moved in with him everything changed I Tell people it was like the movie sleeping with the enemy. Yeah yeah.
44:09.52
Jo_Anne Liakakos
It's amazing. It's very typical though almost like a cult right? It's like I'm going to show you all this I'm going to lure you in then once I get you and I isolate you. And I cut you off from your friends and family in Dawsonville now now I'll show you who I really am and now you don't even have a place to go.
44:25.64
ontheemmis
Yeah, and Dawson Bell yes
44:34.10
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, and I remember to before we decided to move into his house I was going to buy my condo because I was renting it and the owners were selling it and I was going to buy it from them and he was pissed about it like.
44:42.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
44:49.81
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah.
44:52.38
ontheemmis
Like why would you buy this condo when we can move into my house which his house was on the lake which was pretty bad ass. Um, but it was also next door to his parents which was ah.
45:01.19
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I was just going to ask you I was going to say wasn't his mom like really close by yeah, he didn't even need to email her your your email he could have just walked it right over.
45:08.50
ontheemmis
Next door next door shared internet. No yeah, like walked his laptop right on over but you know he made that fatal mistake. But yeah, so. Ah, you know it. It really was like like even down to the detail of like 1 of the things he got mad at me about was the hand towels in the bathroom were not even and that happens in that movie and.
45:33.79
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, oh yes I was just going to say that's like a big deal in the movie.
45:41.43
ontheemmis
And it's just so like I have so much more compassion and understanding for why women stay in those relationships especially if they've all if they're not in a situation like alcoholics anonymous where you are encouraged to have this safety net of people in your life and thank God I had.
45:46.87
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
45:56.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
46:00.95
ontheemmis
Those people you know as harsh and horrible as some of them were through all ah throughout all of this at least I had people to mirror. You know some of that stuff and be objective and you know I just because that night I was like.
46:08.68
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
46:19.82
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah, what I get myself into.
46:20.22
ontheemmis
Oh no, you know like like hopefully like I just was like maybe he's just you know he's uncomfortable because I've moved into his space and he's you know we're about to get married and you know like I'm making up all these reasons that could have been true.
46:31.49
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right? yeah.
46:37.24
ontheemmis
Um, but it just never got better. It never changed it got worse and worse and worse and um, yeah, so ah, eventually you know I left him and got my own place and um and kept seeing you and.
46:48.56
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
46:55.88
ontheemmis
Ah, that I moved out of that apartment into a house that I was renting that was awesome I love that house except it almost killed me with mold. But that's a whole other story ah literally almost killed me. Um, but.
47:04.68
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Oh I remember that I do remember that. Hmm.
47:14.75
ontheemmis
But yeah I I was really kind of I really think that situation. It's interesting that I seemed happier than I'd ever been because I feel like it was like I don't you know how to say this like. Because I was so terrified of that exact thing happening and it happened and I was okay and I got out of it. You know, um and it was like 1 link of the chain broke with that.
47:38.00
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
47:44.12
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah. Right.
47:52.28
ontheemmis
You know with that situation and it it kind of pushed me to question everything. Yeah.
47:56.81
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah I think there was a little bit of self-awareness that started to you know to grow at that point where you know you were starting to feel safe within your own judgment and there was progress. You were like wait a minute I did this.
48:05.40
ontheemmis
Oh. Yeah, yeah, right? Yes I was right? Yeah yep, like if I had been because there was one woman I was talking to who I had worked with.
48:16.63
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And I'm okay and that was the right decision for me right? yeah.
48:29.93
ontheemmis
Ah, for at the program for the enthusiastic so Sprity programs and and then the the rest of the women who were kind of helping me through it had all just gotten sober and a and were not involved with that program at all and the woman who had been with involved with the program was the only one who was like.
48:39.88
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
48:49.30
ontheemmis
Do you think this is your dad stuff. Are you projecting your your dad stuff onto him like she was the only one who was like still that person in my life who still was like you know this is probably your fault and you're inviting this and it's a spiritual contract and all all that crap and.
49:00.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
O m.
49:07.97
ontheemmis
Um, and it was like it was the first time that I had said to someone who was that from that part of my life. No I'm not this is not any of that and i.
49:22.52
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? And that's empowering.
49:26.85
ontheemmis
Yes, it was. It was so incredible to be like this is not my dad shit. This man is fucked up and and and maybe it is triggering my dad's shit but that doesn't make it any less.
49:32.00
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, right right? but that doesn't mean he's not abusive right? right? You're not creating this scenario.
49:42.81
ontheemmis
Right? It doesn't mean I'm just like imagining you know all this craziness. Yeah, so there was so much. Oh yeah.
49:51.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
But that was very ingrained in you this this idea of no no, that's not what it is let me tell you what it is and then you believe that there was this like conditioning that tried to break you from feeling. It was like you don't have feelings.
50:01.44
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.
50:11.27
Jo_Anne Liakakos
What you're thinking what you're feeling. That's not right? We're gonna break you of that and then that sort of rids you of permission to feel and how unhealthy whether it's trauma or just some life circumstance. That's not traumatic just anything.
50:18.36
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yeah.
50:30.95
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? You get into an argument with a friend you have to process it and you have feelings and where it's okay to feel. It's okay to not suppress it. It's okay to say this is what I'm feeling. This is what's happening I'm going to work through that.
50:33.28
ontheemmis
Open and.
50:46.51
ontheemmis
Um, yeah.
50:48.72
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I'm going to come out the other side and it's now behind you versus not having the ability to feel being told you're wrong, It kind of gets stuck.
50:56.49
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well and it's like if you have any feelings that are too intense. There's something wrong like you're not working the steps enough. You're not going to enough meetings. You're not praying enough. You're not.
51:07.30
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And.
51:14.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Which again says it's your fault. It's again your fault. You're not doing something right? We're perfect over here and we have this perfect plan. But you're not following it which breaks you down and.
51:16.26
ontheemmis
Connected enough to exactly exactly. It's all your fault. Yep yep.
51:26.60
ontheemmis
Yes, yeah, yeah, oh my God right? Yep yeah, it's it's yeah that whole situation had so because I had also started to.
51:33.36
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Talk about doing that during developmental years yeah
51:45.51
ontheemmis
Touch on with my sponsor. Um, you know some of the the issues with how I got sober. Ah she has started to get like you know that's weird, right? like you know it's weird that they hire only their clients.
51:54.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
52:02.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Who by the way are not licensed right.
52:04.40
ontheemmis
And oh no, no, no so and this is a great segue. Um, yeah, um, so in Georgia in order to be considered a.
52:10.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? I was just going to say go say Let's let me tell you the process right.
52:23.65
ontheemmis
Think it's a c a DC you you only have to have a high school diploma. So that's all so so they're hiring clients.
52:25.67
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, the drug addiction counselors.
52:41.66
ontheemmis
They have to be at least 18 so they're hot. Oh it is exactly grooming 100% um so they've been groomed and they're super loyal and you know they've been beaten down enough to where they'll take the extra.
52:43.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
It's like they're grooming them. Yeah.
53:00.23
ontheemmis
Heaping of shit they're about to get in their training class and then all they have to do is ah you know study a couple you know the 12 core concepts or whatever and.
53:12.26
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
53:14.96
ontheemmis
Take ah an oral examine a written exam and they have these letters behind their name. Yes, and parents trust them they see a certificate on the wall. They assume you have education and how to deal with their child and they do not.
53:18.65
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, that are deceiving right? Yeah right? yes.
53:33.76
ontheemmis
They I did not I Absolutely did not have that training. Um.
53:36.40
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? during my training I briefly worked in an adolescent drug addiction program and I did it because I was interested in adolescence and I you know I kept begging them can I go can I be a part of this.
53:46.18
ontheemmis
Ah, here.
53:56.21
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And I was still in school and they were like yeah sure and when I got there there now keep in mind I'm I'm not licensed yet I'm doing internships at the time and 2 of the people there did not have degrees.
54:05.64
ontheemmis
Right? right.
54:16.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Like they had what you're saying this to Ac and they were like oh well I'm I was an addict and that was supposed to be right? That was their qualification and I was like well okay I'm not.
54:21.36
ontheemmis
Right? Like that's a qualification. Ah yeah, right.
54:32.54
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And so maybe I don't understand that perspective from personal experience but there are some really great models and things that we can use so it was interesting for me to see like sometimes they you know I would sit in on group.
54:48.24
ontheemmis
Oh.
54:50.81
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And I would have these thoughts to myself like really is this what we're telling these kids who are coming here and I'm not saying that they certainly weren't a cult. Um, but it was this like freedom concept like the kids came and they just did whatever they want and they dramatized. A lot of their scenarios and you know some kids would say Oh yeah, yeah I did that and then later on they would be like well I mean I was there and I'm like oh okay and so it did give me a little bit of.
55:16.76
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, right? yeah.
55:28.61
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You know perspective into what you're saying about people that are not fully licensed and credentialed and have that experience because to fill in what you asked before you know you go to school and the program. The the school itself is.
55:46.34
ontheemmis
Oh.
55:46.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
2 years graduate work then you have to do a year of an internship. Some people do that in conjunction with their second year of school some do it in the third year then you have to get a job and work under someone else supervised.
56:01.00
ontheemmis
Ah.
56:04.59
Jo_Anne Liakakos
For another 3 years and that's crucial because that's when you're really putting practical in you know you're you're doing the work and what do you really know you went to school you was in an internship.
56:06.88
ontheemmis
Oh.
56:12.50
ontheemmis
Ah.
56:23.27
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You need somebody to guide you and continuing on from that point you should never be without a group of colleagues that are there that you can talk to I have many colleagues that I meet on different times and places to discuss.
56:30.42
ontheemmis
E.
56:41.98
ontheemmis
Um, ah right.
56:42.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Clients in cases and check myself and make sure this is the right thing and so it's really important for parents if they're looking to put their kids into some type of program that they really do their homework.
56:55.17
ontheemmis
Yeah, yep, yeah, and it's and that's the thing is like that's one of the things that I I really want to do one day when I have spare time. Um is you know research. And and kind of like talk to parents and talk to therapists and create kind of like a ah punch list for parents like here's what to ask because they don't even know what to ask.
57:14.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
This is.
57:21.14
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, they don't you know there are people that do just that that work for the parents. So I have someone that I refer to if I have if I'm working with a kid and I'm like they need a higher level of care.
57:29.26
ontheemmis
Okay, okay, right. Ah, her.
57:40.93
Jo_Anne Liakakos
They need to go into some sort of program whether it's a therapeutic boarding home or it's addiction and I refer to her and she is a licensed therapist. She is a psychologist she did therapy for years upon years and saw that there was this area that's missing.
57:43.90
ontheemmis
Oh.
57:51.97
ontheemmis
Um.
58:00.39
Jo_Anne Liakakos
So she's an she calls her. They call it an educational consultant but she finds the program that fits you she travels. Yeah, she travels the country and visits the sites finds out all the logistics are they licensed.
58:02.52
ontheemmis
Um, ah oh I Love it I Love it. Ah.
58:19.32
ontheemmis
Right? yeah.
58:19.77
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Who's working for them. You know what kind of program is this and she's got a list and then when parents come to her and say okay, here's my situation. This is what's happening with my child. What's the best fit she will find the program that is right for them and so.
58:29.17
ontheemmis
Yeah.
58:36.80
ontheemmis
Oh I Love it.
58:39.33
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, it's really in my opinion I think it's it's going to find you the better place right? It's gonna be trusted. She's not going to recommend something where oh yeah, they're not licensed. She's visited every location. So um.
58:44.93
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:53.20
ontheemmis
Bright. Yeah.
58:58.76
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I Think it's important that parents know that that's out there.
58:59.41
ontheemmis
Yeah, oh for sure for sure it Yes I want to talk to her after this is over. We can talk about that a little bit more because yeah I don't I don't think parents know that's out there I didn't know that I mean that's incredible. You know and and the thing that's so tricky about.
59:05.29
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, yes, right? yeah.
59:19.90
ontheemmis
Enthusiastic sobriety programs is they are licensed. So so the program itself is licensed. The facility is licensed and then all the staff have credentials most of the program directors because ah for to have like.
59:21.20
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
59:35.43
ontheemmis
Like I always use the example in Phoenix because I I worked a lot with the certification boards in Phoenix when I was there and the highest ah like level of you know, counseling licensing. You can get as an individual is called lysac license individual substance abuse counselor and.
59:51.57
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
59:54.64
ontheemmis
Back in the day before like it happened before I left so I want to say 11008 maybe um before that you just had to have a certain amount of hours supervised by another lysac or a doctor or whatever.
01:00:06.85
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Ah, right.
01:00:11.45
ontheemmis
And they changed it at some point to where you had to have a master's degree which Arizona is like pretty progressive with that stuff because there's like eight bazillion treatment centers in Arizona um, and the director of the program at the time.
01:00:13.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:00:27.90
ontheemmis
Already had a lysac based on the previous requirements so they grandfathered him in so people are so now people are assuming this guy has a master's degree and he doesn't he doesn't you know and I think that that's happened in a lot of places with these directors because a lot of them have been around.
01:00:30.46
Jo_Anne Liakakos
We are.
01:00:36.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Write and he doesn't.
01:00:46.30
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Write.
01:00:46.74
ontheemmis
For decades and they know how to work a room. They know how to talk to people. They've picked up enough. Maybe even taken a college class or 2 but they're they're so entrenched in that philosophy.
01:00:59.80
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Rice.
01:01:03.55
ontheemmis
That they and and they've been around long enough that they know what not to say you know so it's it's That's yeah and they're very charismatic. Um you know and and they do a lot of people put a lot of stock in that like I I'm a recovered addict.
01:01:06.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure Yeah, they need to stay in business. Yep.
01:01:20.22
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right? but that doesn't mean I have the skill to help you succeed.
01:01:21.86
ontheemmis
I'm a recovering alcoholic. So I know what it's like you know, um, right right? And that's the thing I want I Really want parents to know is like there is so much more to working with anybody.
01:01:41.18
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
01:01:41.53
ontheemmis
Who is struggling with life. Ah, not to mention drugs and alcohol a teenager a divorce of childhood abuse like you know there's so much and and so much diagnostic criteria.
01:01:48.56
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:02:00.52
ontheemmis
That takes a lot of education. You know like you have to know.
01:02:02.30
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure Well and you can't just write. You can't just look at ah so any person at all. But let's say an adolescent. You can't look at them and say oh they're drinking that they have addiction issues.
01:02:10.77
ontheemmis
Ah.
01:02:18.12
ontheemmis
Right? right.
01:02:20.23
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Well are we not looking at everything else right? Are is there some sort of peer pressure are they giving into what are the variables. What's the family like what are they going through what's happening you know, diagnosing kids with adult diagnoses is.
01:02:39.39
ontheemmis
Yeah, yep, yeah.
01:02:39.65
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Ah, dangerous thing to do because as you see you get labeled and then you're living part of your early adult life thinking. Oh yeah, this is who I am and you know it's unfortunate. We see it a lot and not just with addiction.
01:02:51.69
ontheemmis
Yep.
01:02:56.21
ontheemmis
Yep.
01:02:57.92
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Like oh they're this or they're that and I'm like well we don't know that yet you know even in addiction. Sometimes there's oh there's this idea that oh they're bipolar and then they get off the drugs and you're like oh we don't see any of that anymore. So.
01:03:02.55
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:03:14.57
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, right.
01:03:17.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Were they bipolar was that an effect of the drugs and so it's really important to know like you said the level of diagnoses.
01:03:24.77
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, and I'm a great example of that and I don't know if I told you this or not ah 2019 the the therapist I'm working with now she um I actually saw a post on Facebook um. By an autism ah like foundation that was about what autism looks like in little girls and I was like oh that's interesting and I'm clicking through it was like you know slides and I'm clicking through these slides and I just start bawling and I was like.
01:03:45.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right. The.
01:03:56.15
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right. I Identify with this? yeah.
01:04:03.27
ontheemmis
Oh my god it's me holy shit. So I'm like Adam come in here I'm like am I am I will you look at this please and tell me if I'm like overreacting and he was like oh shit like no, you're not at all and so.
01:04:15.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, right.
01:04:20.94
ontheemmis
I sent it to my therapist and I said look I know this is a Facebook post but it's from a reputable autism foundation. Will you just look at this because I really identify with it I'd like to discuss it. You know.
01:04:28.27
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:04:34.30
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yes.
01:04:36.63
ontheemmis
And she emailed me back and was like yeah, don't make any self-diagnosis off a Facebook post but sure I'll look at it and then our next ah appointment she was like um ah so I'm going to give you this assessment. You know like she was like no I agree with you, you know.
01:04:40.68
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:04:47.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, well you know girls are missed Young young girls So much is missed and even women right? It's just there's still this inequality that baffles me.
01:04:57.68
ontheemmis
Yep, yeah yep.
01:05:05.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
But young girls a lot of things are missed because it's seen very differently.
01:05:09.85
ontheemmis
Yep, yep, well and it it shows up very differently for for girls too which is why I think they made that post because they wanted it to be specific like this is what it looks like in girls and and and in the 80 s you know.
01:05:11.98
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right right.
01:05:25.33
ontheemmis
They didn't know how to diagnose Autism you know, um, right right? Yeah I mean no, my parents just thought that I was you know more intelligent than everyone else and put me through all these intelligence tests.
01:05:27.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
They didn't know how to send their kids to therapy.
01:05:45.63
ontheemmis
Assessments and which I I mean I I am like I'm not intelligent than everyone else. But I am very intelligent and I I had a very high Iq and um and they told my parents that but because I am actually autistic it. It was very different.
01:05:49.36
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
01:06:03.38
ontheemmis
Like I had all this intelligence but ah, the social aspect I didn't have and they are ah like the way my brain processes things can look like like for me the way it looks is like I have no common sense because it's like I have these blocks sometimes with just very simple.
01:06:06.38
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:06:15.21
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:06:22.78
ontheemmis
Things Um, and and so it was like I felt like I was constantly letting my mom down because she was like you're so smart. Why can't you do this? you know? but I mean it was all about them. It was they they wanted to present me as you know this is how intelligent our child is and.
01:06:31.19
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right? yeah right.
01:06:41.78
ontheemmis
Um, so yes, so I took the ah rads I think is what it's called um and she I came back for the results and she was like look I don't want to be hyperbolic but you got the highest score I've ever seen on this this assessment and and she had me take the one for bipolar disorder.
01:06:59.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You can.
01:07:00.99
ontheemmis
As well and she was like you are both like welcome to your diagnoses you know and I mean but it was so relieving. It was like ah.
01:07:04.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? I was just going to say that it's like sometimes you just want the diagnosis to feel. Okay now I understand myself I'm not crazy like this is actually real.
01:07:13.86
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:07:19.35
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, and why I'd like it made so much sense. Yes, yes, and like I'm just weird I mean I've said that about myself my whole life like I'm just weird. You know.
01:07:24.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And now I can work towards figuring out how you manage it versus feel like it's not real right.
01:07:38.12
ontheemmis
Um, and why and and the the biggest thing for me that's been so relieving is the sensory processing stuff like I cannot I've never been able to handle high energy sensory overload like I mean and I'm looking back.
01:07:42.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:07:51.29
Jo_Anne Liakakos
E.
01:07:56.80
ontheemmis
I have had panic attacks and because I was in I was on that staff with those people who don't believe in any of that They think it's all spiritual I would get this like you know I remember calling my sponsor and being like I think I had a panic attack and she was like.
01:07:56.16
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:08:03.62
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah.
01:08:14.36
ontheemmis
This is ridiculous like you you did not have a panic attack and you're just being dramatic and right and I'm looking back down I'm like oh no I totally did and I dissociate like I full blown dissociate when it and and I can identify that now and.
01:08:18.14
Jo_Anne Liakakos
There's no such thing.
01:08:24.38
Jo_Anne Liakakos
To.
01:08:30.51
ontheemmis
There's so much great stuff out there I found these because Adam's the same way I really think Adam is on the spectrum as well because he gets but he also has the ptsd from the army. So ah, there's a lot of sensory stuff that he has that comes from that. But it's very similar to mine.
01:08:40.77
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:08:49.40
ontheemmis
Um, which is why we've had no problem staying home for the past two years because we're like cool. We don't have to deal with crowds of people. Um I yeah oh yeah, yeah.
01:08:50.20
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Yeah I kind of like that too I I'm definitely the older I get to the more I'm like I just I just want to be home and I'm good over here by myself.
01:09:08.96
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:09:09.12
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And so when it hit and I'm also and have always been almost like a germophobe and like I don't really certain things they really irk me and so when it happened it. It was like nobody touched each other nobody go do this nobody go do that and all these people were freaking out I was like oh.
01:09:14.60
ontheemmis
Um I.
01:09:21.56
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yeah I. Ah, Thank God Finally I'm seen. Yeah, Oh yeah, I mean we were wiping down all our groceries I mean yeah, we were like we are not. You know I mean what and because you know there's the chance our lives could be on the line. But.
01:09:28.63
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I feel so calm. Yeah, finally yeah.
01:09:45.99
ontheemmis
Ah, especially before we were vaccinated. So yeah I mean we've we've had no problem with that. But we um, we found these earbuds. They're like earplugs but they're not plugs they're they're hollow, but the way that they're made they block out.
01:09:58.51
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:10:05.30
ontheemmis
Ambient like sounds and and you can't really tell a difference until you take them out So it's not like I can't hear well I can still hear very clearly but it blocks out the like buzz there and.
01:10:05.93
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right. Ah, wow.
01:10:19.27
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah, wow.
01:10:22.81
ontheemmis
Right? I mean is changed my life like I put the mom when I leave the house and I I do not have the same kind of sensory overload that I used to have I Still don't like going like the grocery store I'm so glad I could just have groceries delivered and I was where what was I listening to.
01:10:33.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah.
01:10:42.80
ontheemmis
Listening to some podcast and this psychologist was talking about how oh no, it's this um I'm taking this ah cult survivors course this woman who her name's Dr. Yonya loitch
01:10:52.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Wow.
01:10:59.16
ontheemmis
She is a ah she's a ph d in psychology and she was in this like hardcore left wing cult in the 70 s and so she has been in a cult and now she's this like world renowned um cult expert.
01:11:04.12
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Wow.
01:11:16.35
ontheemmis
And she's built this course for people to help them deal with yeah yeah, it's called taking back your life and I've never really done any specific cult recovery work like my therapist and I of course we talk about all. Ah you know all of that. But.
01:11:20.89
Jo_Anne Liakakos
It's like recovery.
01:11:26.83
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Yeah, will you know you avoided that a lot like you would say infrequently you would say well you know I was in a cult and then you would like breeze past it and I'd be like.
01:11:35.80
ontheemmis
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yes.
01:11:45.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You think maybe we should back it up like maybe we should talk a little bit about that like what was that experience for you and you're like no I'm good. Let's just move on I'm just mad at this or this happened or that happened and I'm like does she just breeze past that she was in a cult.
01:11:51.92
ontheemmis
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
01:12:05.21
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And you know and it happened numerous times and I never felt that it was something that I should force you to talk about and I Also don't believe that we need to have these like.
01:12:06.17
ontheemmis
Oh yeah.
01:12:12.26
ontheemmis
Sure yeah.
01:12:23.80
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Cathartic experiences where we talk in detail about our trauma that is often more traumatizing and it creates this. You know, almost dependence on catharsis that I have to talk about it I have to talk about it and you just all you can do is talk about that thing.
01:12:26.46
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:12:35.10
ontheemmis
Yes, yes. Um, yes, yes.
01:12:42.96
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And there's never recovery. It's almost like this cycle and you almost are re-traumatized and re-traumatized and so I was never going to force you and say well. Why don't we talk about it tell me what happened I felt like let me meet her where she's at and she's not.
01:12:53.69
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
01:13:01.78
Jo_Anne Liakakos
There yet. It was like when you came in and said okay so I know we've been talking and I don't think I'm an alcoholic you know and and I remember you and I developing a plan and we were like all right and I remember telling a colleague.
01:13:09.32
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.
01:13:20.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
In consultation group. You know so I'm working with this client and um, yeah, we kind of told her she should go home and drink and they were like what you you told your client who is sober and an alcoholic.
01:13:20.71
ontheemmis
Oh.
01:13:28.28
ontheemmis
Right? if.
01:13:35.74
ontheemmis
Um, for almost twenty years yeah it's fine.
01:13:39.64
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Go home and have a drink and I was like oh don't worry. We developed a plan. It's all good. It's good. She's gonna have someone there with her and they were like um I don't know and so yeah.
01:13:50.72
ontheemmis
Yeah, well and and there so okay, so there's so much there that I want to go back to first of all that was when I finally felt comfortable saying it was a cult so it's like I was trying it out like because prior to that I would I mean.
01:14:02.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:14:10.72
ontheemmis
Argue vehemently that it was not a cult you know, right? right? right? and I you know I said it just in a conversation with someone and I was like oh I Just said that because it had been called a cult the whole time I worked there for it for since mood step.
01:14:12.89
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Like it maybe wasn't the best recovery, but it's not a cult sure.
01:14:29.65
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah.
01:14:30.16
ontheemmis
These It's been called a cult you know and and when you're inside it. You get all this like you know, well maybe your brain needs washing and you know we're not a cult. We kick people out you know and all that stuff. So um, so yeah that that's so funny that. Ah yeah, because.
01:14:37.31
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah. Yeah, well do you remember that you wouldn't even say their name. Yeah, you would never say the name of the program.
01:14:50.71
ontheemmis
No.
01:14:56.51
ontheemmis
Probably because I you your office is five miles away from theirs and I was probably I didn't want to? yeah I didn't want you to think badly of them in case you needed to send someone there because that and and that was the cognitive dissidence there because i.
01:15:02.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yes.
01:15:08.84
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Ah, right? yeah.
01:15:15.57
ontheemmis
I have this like okay well it might be a little bit fucked up but like where are kids going to go. There's nowhere else for them to go and and that's what held a lot of us you know since I've been talking to other survivors. That's what held a lot of us back for years.
01:15:21.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:15:31.47
ontheemmis
Speaking out was we didn't want the programs to get shut down because where would kids go because we we had been so ingrained to believe that it was the best place for teenagers and there was nowhere else that worked with teenagers the way that we did right right? it's.
01:15:37.66
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right right? Yeah, meanwhile they were being abused and creating more trauma in their lives.
01:15:51.27
ontheemmis
Yes, and create it. Yeah and I mean yeah, the amount of suicides and overdoses that come from that place is astronomical astronomical.
01:15:55.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, well, it's kind of like you said earlier, there's this There are some kids that are addicts. There are some that have problems and they're not just you know rebelling or experimenting.
01:16:11.13
ontheemmis
Right? right? yeah.
01:16:14.91
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And they're getting missed and then they get out of this program and overdose it's terribly sad.
01:16:21.70
ontheemmis
Yeah, or just can't or or feel like I just spent 3 years of my life and I thought I was better and I'm not so fuck it. You know, um, right right? right.
01:16:30.21
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? because I never really felt or dealt with any of my issues because I was told they're not real.
01:16:40.64
ontheemmis
Or ah, you know my co-occurring mental illness that has just not been dealt with at all. Yeah I can't even imagine but I mean ah, what am I saying yes I can that was exactly my the case with me of course I could imagine that it happened to me. Um.
01:16:44.44
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, that.
01:16:57.65
ontheemmis
But the the dependence on catharsis that because that is what happens there and and I so that was one of the things I loved about working with you is it was like I would go and we would sit and we would just talk and.
01:16:58.56
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, right.
01:17:15.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Here.
01:17:15.42
ontheemmis
Sometimes I cried and sometimes I didn't but I always felt so much better when I left your office and I remember being so confounded by that like like we didn't even talk about anything like she because you would I would just say things and then you would go like well do you think that might be this.
01:17:25.64
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:17:34.49
ontheemmis
And I would be like oh yeah, that might be that and then we would kind of talk about that thing and I because because so much of my um, my time there both as a client and a staff member was it was marked by these like. Upheavals where I would you know I would cry and be in all this emotional pain and then I would come through it and and yeah like I was dependent on that catharsis.
01:18:02.91
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Write write.
01:18:08.20
ontheemmis
You know? and and you're right like that's not like my therapist now doesn't do that like we just talk and that's one of the things I loved about her when I met her is she's she doesn't she doesn't do any of that like like harsh.
01:18:11.85
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:18:25.84
ontheemmis
I Don't know how to explain it. It's like when people talk about their therapist like I was lying to my therapist and she knew it She said something like who you know like there have definitely been times where I have not told the whole story to her and she doesn't.
01:18:32.32
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:18:44.66
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right, right? right? She's meeting you where you are. She's not there to to fight you on it.
01:18:45.50
ontheemmis
Say you like it and eventually I'll be like oh I totally left out this piece of this thing and she'll be like oh that makes more sense. You know like I I Just it's just yeah, yeah, yeah, like it's not that's not. It's just not necessary.
01:19:02.78
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, it's not necessary.
01:19:04.68
ontheemmis
It's not necessary and I believe if I I started going down a road that was um, harmful or unhealthy like she would say something you know I don't think that it would be this like she would just blow it off. But.
01:19:14.67
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure right.
01:19:21.35
ontheemmis
You know that that's just not necessary. It's not necessary to have these big upheavals in order to like grow and be happy and you know all of that right right.
01:19:27.54
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? And we don't have to tell every detail all the time there might be something that happened and you're like I've resolved it I've got the skills now and I don't need to talk about that. You know, um.
01:19:37.78
ontheemmis
Um, yeah.
01:19:46.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And it's interesting because people talk about this catharsis and you have to do all this but you know trauma in and of itself can be transformative. You can really grow with the right support the right guidance and.
01:19:57.30
ontheemmis
Um, yeah.
01:20:04.89
Jo_Anne Liakakos
It's not that oh we need trauma to grow. But if you do have that experience it. It can give you some sort of like significant awakening we start to learn who we are. We're like oh okay, so this is who I am this is what I believe and it doesn't have to be.
01:20:05.97
ontheemmis
Bright.
01:20:18.60
ontheemmis
And. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely and that's you know that's something that I have started to see with this movement.
01:20:23.78
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Let me relive it to get through it.
01:20:37.59
ontheemmis
Because in the beginning when we were all in this Facebook group. It was like the end of 2020 and this Facebook group went from like a hundred people I was I was in it in the very beginning to I think it's probably up to the eight hundreds now it grew very quickly and.
01:20:51.67
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Wow.
01:20:56.37
ontheemmis
There were all these people who were like like finally I know I'm not alone I can talk about this. Everyone was I mean it was like just unloading on it was great. It was great. You know I mean there were there were people who would hop in and be like you know y'all D therapy and we'd all be like oh fuck off you know, like.
01:21:03.63
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, it's outpouring.
01:21:12.78
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Because of you.
01:21:15.52
ontheemmis
Like we know, but we need to get this out. You know, right? Um, and because you know there and also there are just people who aren't ready to go there. Obviously you know it took me so long to be able to say some of the things that I said but um.
01:21:24.38
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? right.
01:21:32.44
ontheemmis
But you know it's been over a year now and I I My personal um mission is to start focusing on the solution and start focusing on what you can do after you leave because it's so important and um.
01:21:46.80
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:21:51.60
ontheemmis
You know? so I I have actually kind of distanced myself I'm no longer working with the nonprofit. Um I kind of I I decided the podcast was where I really wanted to put all of my energy and um and that the. It would give me an opportunity to do things like this like this is why I wanted to bring you on because you give such a great perspective to people who might be looking for like what do I do now like how do I get better. How do I deal with this, you know and and I changed the um.
01:22:15.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Write write.
01:22:24.74
ontheemmis
Ah, the name of um, like the nonprofit is enthusiastic sobriety abuse alliance and and I never really liked using the word abuse it. It always felt a little like harsh to me I mean it's true. But as the name of our movement. It felt like. So we're enthusiastic sobriety abuse like I don't you know?? Um, so I changed up the my you know like my portion of the movement to be enthusiastic sobriety survivors because we are you know? and and I'm not you know I don't want to turn this into some toxin.
01:22:44.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
01:22:51.85
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, well if you think about it even just rephrasing. It takes you out of the victim mentality and when you remove the victim mentality is when you start to heal.
01:23:00.66
ontheemmis
Yeah, and.
01:23:08.64
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:23:10.43
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And so saying abuse. It's like oh I was abused and that might be so but you're a survivor and that's a a totally different mentality and it's more empowering.
01:23:13.50
ontheemmis
Right? Yes, yes, yes, it is and I think both are vital I think it is vital for people to be able to admit that they were abused. Because I couldn't for a long time I would say that you know ah I was you know, yelled at or I was manipulated or I was you know brainwashed but I would never say abuse because that was like too much you know.
01:23:30.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure.
01:23:44.76
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Well we take on shame we take on shame that is not ours to take on and that is when you said early on about being embarrassed by something. It's like it's very powerful and freeing when.
01:23:48.82
ontheemmis
Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely.
01:23:56.50
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, um.
01:24:04.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Get to a place of saying that doesn't embarrass me anymore. This is what it is right? and I'm not going to be ashamed of it and it's not a reflection of me. It's something that happened to me and maybe on some level I did things too.
01:24:07.14
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:24:21.71
Jo_Anne Liakakos
But that's not where I am any longer and so you take out that victim mentality and you know not feel the shame that breeds healing.
01:24:22.13
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:24:29.59
ontheemmis
Yeah, yep, yeah, absolutely yeah I think it's yeah yeah, so that that's why I think both are very important. Um I think it's important to admit that enthusiastic sobriety is abuse and I think it's important to admit that enthusiastic.
01:24:44.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
If.
01:24:49.80
ontheemmis
That we are enthusiastic sobriety survivors I think you know that those are the things that are important now and um, my mission is to both um, help people realize they were abused and then help them find something that works for them. Um, to.
01:24:49.76
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:25:07.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah.
01:25:09.50
ontheemmis
Heal you know and that's that's why I'm taking this course I'm taking it for me and I'm taking it to see if it's something that's viable to you know, recommend for people. Um, and I'm also interviewing Dr Lollitch tomorrow live on twitch I am like. Beside myself that she's agreed to come on my tiny little podcast and talk about you know cult survivors. Um, yeah i' so I'm very excited for that This week has been like it's like Christmas like I got to I get to meet with you and then I get to meet with her tomorrow. Um, so.
01:25:29.63
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
01:25:38.48
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, ah.
01:25:44.65
ontheemmis
So yeah, anyway, that was I mean that whole tangent started for me talking about the grocery store. Believe it or not but um, in in that course I took this weekend 1 of the psychologists who works with her said most of her clients the hardest time they have is in the grocery store. Yeah.
01:25:58.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Really.
01:26:01.89
ontheemmis
Like because it's so much. It's so much input. Um and then especially I've had a hard time with with wearing a mask. So I've got that sensory input on my face and then but in the back of my head like this doesn't really protect me and what if I walk through a cloud of covered and you know like.
01:26:03.14
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, yeah. Right? yeah.
01:26:21.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:26:21.82
ontheemmis
That's why it stopped going to the grocery store because I was like I can't handle it. Um, So yeah, so it's just an interesting thing. Um, so ah to to kind of start to wrap this up. What can you give any parents who were listening um because a lot of survivors. Especially for my time have kids now who are teenagers you know and kids so can you give us kind of your what's your recommendation as far as dealing with an adolescent who's who's kind of crossing that line from like normal teenage rebellion into like I'm concerned.
01:26:41.96
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? right.
01:26:59.92
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure. So first I would say that I don't recommend immediately just going into a treatment facility. There needs to be some level of assessment prior to that from a professional who can say okay.
01:27:00.78
ontheemmis
For them like what? what do you recommend in those situations.
01:27:10.55
ontheemmis
Right. Yeah.
01:27:19.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
This is a higher level of care. We need to take this next step right? We're not going to jump over that. So I think individual therapy is ah is a great starting point. Um somebody licensed Obviously right? um.
01:27:19.93
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:27:29.33
ontheemmis
Yeah I do too right licensed and ask for their credentials and their education. You'll just press letters.
01:27:38.27
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Yeah and don't write and know what the letters mean and don't don't feel like you can't ask because it should not be insulting and if they are insulted.
01:27:48.80
ontheemmis
Yeah, it should not be insulting. Yeah red flagck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:27:57.89
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Then you should just look for someone else right? right? Yeah, it's a huge red flag. Um I think important is for parents to also recognize that kids are unique just because you've got 3 kids and 2 of them behave this way and this other one does not.
01:28:15.45
ontheemmis
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:28:17.72
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Maybe you have to parent them differently. Maybe there's you know, be open to parenting be open to understanding that sometimes you have to listen to your kids and it's not always this big like oh we got to send them off. You know. We gotta go send them off to Rehab because we caught them drinking and you know so there is that level of assessment first and I think that starts with a licensed therapist who can work with them I always give power to the kids I work with I tell them if you don't want to be here. You don't have to come.
01:28:43.40
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:28:54.91
ontheemmis
Um, yeah.
01:28:56.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You just have to give me 6 sessions I always give them that. Okay, so and I tell the parents the same thing 6 sessions and if they don't want to come after that then you know I'm not going to force them because they have to have good therapy right? I feel like that's what you were robbed of.
01:29:11.55
ontheemmis
Right? right? Yeah yeah.
01:29:15.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
They robbed you and all the other people along with you of good therapy. So I always feel like I give them the power and the control because then they'll seek therapy later if they decide now is not a good thing. Well at least I had a good experience I can understand what it was.
01:29:20.20
ontheemmis
Um.
01:29:27.00
ontheemmis
Yeah yep, yep.
01:29:34.98
Jo_Anne Liakakos
They're not looking for another parent right? So you need to have somebody who works with adolescents who understands them is gonna get on their level. Um, and then you have to trust that person I've worked with a lot of adolescents who have used drugs I'm not set shipping them off to Rehab. Um.
01:29:40.59
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:29:48.23
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, right before that? yep.
01:29:54.84
Jo_Anne Liakakos
There's There's a lot of steps before that. Yeah, so you really need to stop and take a moment listen find them the right thing and then here's a part that parents I think struggle with um, being able to be accountable often.
01:30:10.70
ontheemmis
Ah, on.
01:30:12.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Kids are reacting to things that are happening within their home or they're reacting to mental mentally Ill parents or parents that have addictions and so you've got to look at the whole system. You've got to be able to say.
01:30:15.40
ontheemmis
Right. Yeah, right. Um.
01:30:30.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
What's happening in the life of these kids right? Also with their peers. You know their home life might be wonderful, but maybe school is not so what's happening there. Um, and and really not having that perspective of oh I made it through you'll make it too.
01:30:30.56
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:30:38.59
ontheemmis
Right.
01:30:46.44
ontheemmis
Yes, yeah, yeah.
01:30:48.67
Jo_Anne Liakakos
A lot of people right? It's amazing. How many people will say oh I've been through it you're at the easy part of your life I don't think that's the easy part I think where I am now is far easier I am.
01:30:58.58
ontheemmis
No God No yes. Ah.
01:31:05.74
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I am much more confident I am much more able to figure out what I want and be able to implement that. Ah the pressure of those years even if you just look at school. You know they're like oh you have no responsibilities. They have huge responsibilities.
01:31:14.25
ontheemmis
Yep. Um, yeah, yeah, um.
01:31:23.84
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You know you have to go to school. You got to get good grades. You can't do drugs. You know you can't drink. You can't do all these things and there's so many restrictions on them I'm not saying it should be like enthusiastic sobriety by any means. But.
01:31:37.14
ontheemmis
Stir A no no. Ah.
01:31:39.87
Jo_Anne Liakakos
But there needs to be some understanding of what's really going on in their lives and you can't compare your kids you know and so they've really I think the first step is finding a therapist who understands adolescence.
01:31:41.96
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah, it's very true.
01:31:55.30
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yep.
01:31:57.78
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And then be willing to take on some parenting you know I've worked unfortunately with so many parents that say well this isn't my problem and then what happens inevitably, you're teaching adolescents.
01:32:07.24
ontheemmis
Yeah, yep.
01:32:16.23
ontheemmis
Right? right? Yeah, ah yeah.
01:32:16.27
Jo_Anne Liakakos
How to handle their parents which is sad. Um, but I think that that's a a really big thing and then if you do have a therapist who says hey this child needs a higher level of care. Do your homework, get an educational consultant.
01:32:32.40
ontheemmis
Um, um, um, yeah, yeah.
01:32:36.20
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You know I know that they could be costly but in the long run. It's worth it because they have the expertise right? We're not just going to Health care for our physical health care to anybody.
01:32:48.82
ontheemmis
Right? right? right? yeah.
01:32:53.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Like we want to know you're board certified or you have a specialty in this area I'm not going to let you do surgery on me if I if you that's not your area of expertise. Well you can't just look at a brochure brochures could be really nice and pretty and fancy website. Yeah.
01:33:01.70
ontheemmis
Right. Oh my God or a website. Yeah.
01:33:12.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And you know there's not a lot of truth to them and so really doing the homework and um, understanding it don't just go in you know blindly because you're afraid I think that's a big piece too is they get parents when they're vulnerable.
01:33:14.57
ontheemmis
Um.
01:33:23.84
ontheemmis
Yeah. Yes, Oh absolutely. Absolutely.
01:33:32.40
Jo_Anne Liakakos
They have so much fear for their kids and so there's got to be that trust so go in with somebody that you can trust.
01:33:36.89
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that that is something that we used to tell parents jails institutions and death this is where your child is headed if they do not get help immediately and that's terrifying.
01:33:51.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Wow. It is.
01:33:56.56
ontheemmis
That is terrifying um and and yeah, absolutely a parent's going to write a giant check if you tell them your kid will die unless they get and and here's the thing.
01:34:04.28
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure.
01:34:10.23
ontheemmis
Have this friend who is actually he was a parent who his kid went through my outpatient I was his counselor. Um, and we built a you know his dad and I built a relationship when I was working with his family and he found me on Facebook years later and we you know we ended up kind of working together and his.
01:34:13.92
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Okay.
01:34:29.19
ontheemmis
He really wanted at that time to create something for parents a place for parents to go to learn about what questions to ask and you know all of that and um and he did some really deep deep research into some of these claims that a lot of these treatment centers make you know of like.
01:34:32.20
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yeah.
01:34:44.55
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Oh yeah.
01:34:47.80
ontheemmis
Kids are dying and the data does not bear that out the at that time and this was probably 2015 the largest percentage of overdose deaths by either.
01:34:51.41
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:35:03.59
ontheemmis
Prescription any drug prescription or you know illicit or whatever was middle age women because they were taking ah you know, ah xanax or and and pain medication that they didn't realize.
01:35:07.96
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah.
01:35:20.60
ontheemmis
Were contraindicated and they were overdosing and that was eye openinging like by far the largest percentage was middle age women. Um which that and of itself is a whole podcast like.
01:35:21.39
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:35:28.46
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:35:35.34
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, yeah, oh women in general right? right? yeah.
01:35:38.60
ontheemmis
How middle age women are treated in the medical community women in general but especially middle age women I mean I started menopause in 2019 and good god um, it's yeah, the the way that it is perceived and treated and all of that you know I thought it.
01:35:53.94
Jo_Anne Liakakos
F.
01:35:57.16
ontheemmis
You know the way that mens trading women were treated was bad but menopausal that's like a you know, especially if you gain weight. It's like put her out to pasture so we don't she is worth nothing to us anymore except we want her to buy our face green. Um, so.
01:36:03.71
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? yep.
01:36:12.19
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:36:17.80
ontheemmis
Anyway, you know it it. They just don't They don't have the information and taking her taking your statistics and your philosophies and communicating things from alcoholics anonymous.
01:36:35.78
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:36:36.33
ontheemmis
As facts is so wrong because that is not what alcoholics anonymous has they have 2 men who. Used a religious program to stop drinking and then stole it and turned it into their own thing and one of them was a very good salesman and here we are here we are seventy years later um
01:37:00.56
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, right? and even for addicts I've worked with people who are sober and say well a it doesn't work for me. It's not the program for me and that's okay, it's not for everybody even if.
01:37:13.98
ontheemmis
No, right. There's so much right? There's so many other programs or so many other solutions but they're all demonized by alcoholics anonymous.
01:37:19.76
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You do feel you are an alcoholic right? It doesn't have to be the program for you.
01:37:28.98
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? sure.
01:37:33.18
ontheemmis
And program any 12 step programs. You know they're all demonized and you know they just they did it. They've done a really good job of marketing is what it comes down to you know? so um so yes so thank you for all of that that was that's really helpful and I hope that you know that helps some people that um.
01:37:41.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:37:51.11
ontheemmis
Might be. You know we've heard from a lot of parents who were like ok but what do I do with my kid like ok yeah, like you want to shut these programs down but like where are kids going to go like they still have that fear and it's like oh there's so many other options out there So many you know? um.
01:37:54.53
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Write.
01:38:02.36
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right. Right? There are right.
01:38:11.80
ontheemmis
You Just don't hear about him as much you know? Um, So yeah, so that's that's really good to Know. Um and I think I think that was I can ah let you get back to your life now I think that was the everything we had Discussed. Um. Is there anything else that you um, you wanted to talk about or do you have any questions about ah the movement and what we're doing or anything like that.
01:38:34.82
Jo_Anne Liakakos
No I'm just really excited for you I think that it is amazing. The giveback for all these people right? and even just your own healing right? It's got to be just the process.
01:38:42.60
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yep.
01:38:53.97
Jo_Anne Liakakos
In and of itself has got to be like talking to all these people like you said people seeing it and coming out and going Oh is that what it was like having a place where they can connect in a healthy way I think is huge and so I applaud you for doing that.
01:39:00.56
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah I do too. Thank you and well and thank you for your part and all of this.
01:39:13.80
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Think it's ah.
01:39:18.95
ontheemmis
You know you're You're definitely a ah ah piece of this whole puzzle that you know has got this movement going for sure. So.
01:39:25.35
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Well I appreciate that I mean it's definitely something I love and I'm passionate about and I'm yet to have a day where I'm like oh I don't want to go into work I don't want to go like I I Love it.
01:39:36.98
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:39:44.11
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And I can't even imagine you know sometimes I talk about like you know, like everybody you're like oh one day I'm going to retire and then I'm like well maybe not from this but you know I Just think it's it's it's something I can't imagine stopping.
01:39:54.82
ontheemmis
Right? ah.
01:40:01.43
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:40:02.85
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And I get such gratification from it even when it's hard even when I've met with resistance and they're like no this isn't working I mean I've had people mad at me. You don't know what you're talking about and you know all sorts of things I worked for.
01:40:06.33
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:40:13.28
ontheemmis
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, um.
01:40:21.65
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And adole before I was in private practice I worked for an adolescent treatment facility for young girls. They were 12 to 17 years old. Yeah and it was a lockdown facility. They were you know in they were in foster care.
01:40:26.37
ontheemmis
Um, whoo. Yeah.
01:40:39.26
ontheemmis
And.
01:40:41.38
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Behavioral issues so moved from foster care into ydc behavioral issues in Y Dc and Y Dc said no get them out of here and so these 2 women created this what appeared to be and again appearances so be careful.
01:40:43.91
ontheemmis
Oh. Um, yeah.
01:40:57.34
ontheemmis
Yeah I had.
01:40:59.53
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, this really great place. It was on twenty five acres up in a Darsville Georgia they had horse barn. They had a swimming pool. It was residential. So the girls lived there. They had a schoolhouse and we came in as contract to do therapy with them and.
01:41:03.83
ontheemmis
I.
01:41:14.10
ontheemmis
Oh.
01:41:19.80
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I Stayed far longer than I really wanted to because I was so attached to these girls who really needed somebody to be stable in their life but similar to what you're saying um with the program you were in.
01:41:19.33
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:41:29.90
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:41:38.90
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I would so I would say well they're almost being abused here so they were in a they were being abused by their families and got put into foster care not because of their behavior really but because of what was done to them right? 98% of the girls in there were sexually abused.
01:41:41.58
ontheemmis
Right? right.
01:41:51.51
ontheemmis
Um, yeah, right? yeah.
01:41:58.28
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And a high percentage was by family members and then you know so now they made it to this place where they're in. Basically this little lockdown Jail type place and the direct care staff were high school graduates and some of them didn't even have high school degrees.
01:42:15.57
ontheemmis
F.
01:42:17.72
Jo_Anne Liakakos
No training. No you know anything? No no degrees we did but like I said we were contract so they brought us in. We saw them and then we went home and I just started seeing all this like this is not good.
01:42:27.92
ontheemmis
Um, um, yeah, yeah.
01:42:35.73
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And a few of us tried to make changes and um sadly I ended up leaving one of the girls threw a big boulder at me and like broke my foot and so I was like all right I don't I don't think this is working out you know because I had my own family and life and it's like well.
01:42:45.37
ontheemmis
Oh no, I'm out right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:42:55.15
Jo_Anne Liakakos
You've got to figure out What's right for you? Um, and so I ended up leaving and then a year later One of my friends was still working there and there was a riot and they ended up closing the facility down. Um and it just is.
01:43:07.43
ontheemmis
Good. Yeah.
01:43:13.37
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Another reminder like do your homework like this looked like this great place and we were trying to make changes but we only had so much control. Yeah, and so you really have to do your homework. You have to be able. Um, do site visit.
01:43:14.12
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah,, especially as contractors. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Fred flag. Yep yeah.
01:43:31.79
Jo_Anne Liakakos
If there's a place that won't allow you to find out about them. Why would you send your child there. Yeah so I think those are like individual therapy get an educational consultant if it comes down to that and be open to your own.
01:43:46.20
ontheemmis
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a very important piece of it. Yeah goodness. Gracious Yeah, it's um, there is a a piece of legislation and you you may be onto this the Acc the accountability and congreate care act.
01:43:51.94
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Parenting work. It is.
01:44:06.43
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Um, right.
01:44:11.15
ontheemmis
Um, that's getting ready to be introduced on the twentieth and um I've been you know trying to get the word out there to get people to um, nag their senators and congresspeople about it because they do listen um I interned at ah the borgan project last year and they um basically are you know trying to engage the United States in assisting. Um you know foreign nations with poverty and I learned a lot about like when you call your senator or your congressperson they listen.
01:44:39.24
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:44:49.46
ontheemmis
Um, they actually have someone who tallies up like because now it's you leave a voicemail. You can't like really get in touch with anybody anymore. But they actually have someone who will tally up how many people called about a certain issue and then they make a list and they say this is the most important thing to your constituents right now we need to look at this.
01:44:55.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Write.
01:45:00.99
Jo_Anne Liakakos
We right. Right.
01:45:08.73
ontheemmis
You know and a lot of people are like no, it's the lobbyists and the money and the corporations and it's like ok, but if that was the case then why don't we have a border wall then why aren't we you know because if it was really about money. Um, then. That wall would have been built but it's not because they they do. They do listen to us and they do um they will put up a you know they will go Ok Whoa Whoa. We need to stop here because my constituents are wanting this. You know?? Um, so it people it really does help call your senator email your senator.
01:45:38.86
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:45:46.10
ontheemmis
Write them a letter go meet with them. You can do all of those things. Um and it does make a difference and so I've been trying to kind of get the word out there about it and ah and I'm gonna have the women who are kind of championing it.
01:45:46.49
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah.
01:45:59.50
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Awesome.
01:45:59.75
ontheemmis
On the podcast in a couple of weeks I've been kind of emailing back and forth with them so we can talk about it a little bit because that's that's one of the things and part of why I wanted to get the degree I'm getting and why I wanted to go to law school is um because I think in general we need more oversight of the mental health industry.
01:46:17.70
Jo_Anne Liakakos
For sure. Yeah, right? it just yeah, you know that's very scary and one of the things that they say right? We're the gatekeepers of our profession.
01:46:19.22
ontheemmis
And the United States you know, um because that's how Bob Meehan was able to just he would get kicked out of states and just then just open up at another one because nobody knows you know.
01:46:33.87
ontheemmis
Um, ah.
01:46:36.99
Jo_Anne Liakakos
We have to say this person is practicing from an unethical position. We've got to call the board on them and no one wants to do that right? Nobody wants to be in that position but you can't have the level of care.
01:46:42.76
ontheemmis
Yep yep.
01:46:52.66
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:46:54.60
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Not be where the level of care needs to be and so as difficult as it is. It's sometimes those difficult moments that are the most impactful for people you know and if you care about the profession because you care about the people you see then you want them.
01:47:02.53
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah. Um, yep, Yes, yep.
01:47:13.13
Jo_Anne Liakakos
To be worthy of giving doing therapy and pointing out people that are not licensed hey there's this person over here I don't think their license or this expired or they're not doing the work. We should be doing our own work right? staying abreast to the knowledge. That's new making sure we're continuing our education.
01:47:24.24
ontheemmis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:47:32.18
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Being accountable with consultation groups. You know if you ever find somebody and they say oh no, you know I'm in private practice and I'm good and I know everything I don't need any of that. That's like a red flag to me.
01:47:41.36
ontheemmis
Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely absolutely. There's so much. There's just there's so much research being done all the time all the time and there's so much new information coming out. Yeah, it's just it's insane.
01:47:51.17
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? yeah.
01:47:58.63
ontheemmis
And and that's part of the problem with there not being any federal oversight is Bob would just get smarter. You know that's why all the programs are licensed and they keep all of their you know all of the rules and regulations they as far as on paper if anybody comes and investigates.
01:48:02.74
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:48:12.69
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right.
01:48:16.51
ontheemmis
They're following all the rules and that's mostly what they look at they don't sit in group for a week and see how these kids are being treated. They just come look at your reports and record keeping and make sure you got your fire extinguishers and everybody's everybody's got their certifications up to date and they.
01:48:18.88
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right? right. Oh yeah, yep.
01:48:34.65
ontheemmis
And Bob just got smarter and smarter about keeping all of that stuff above board so they could continue to operate how they wanted to operate you know? Yeah I agree.
01:48:40.54
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? That's part of the state's issue as well. They need to be better. They need to be better. They need to have better standards when I worked for the adolescent home. It was amazing to me. They would come in. We got audited when I was there.
01:48:57.91
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:49:00.10
Jo_Anne Liakakos
And they were like we need to change all our records because they're coming in. They're auditing and I was like what? no no, we don't We don't need to do any of that. Um, right and it was like well we want it to look a certain way and that's not.
01:49:02.75
ontheemmis
Um, yep, yep, it's the point of an audit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's not ah.
01:49:17.63
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Good care. It's not ethical care you know and I'm not going to guess this is a whole nother podcast. What I'm about to say but I have issues with like the school system.
01:49:31.55
ontheemmis
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
01:49:34.62
Jo_Anne Liakakos
I Mean our kids are just not being serviced there and you know they talk about oh we have these like no bully campaigns and whatnot and it's like you're not getting it. You're not getting it.
01:49:45.48
ontheemmis
Oh yeah, yeah, it's like that my high school I would drive in to school in the morning smoking a joint and pass the drug free school zone sign my way in the barking lot. Yeah.
01:49:54.66
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? Yeah, we were allowed to smoke now I didn't smoke but all my friends smoked right? and so we would all go. They'd be like let's go outside is okay, we would sit on the school steps and smoke cigarettes and they just you know.
01:50:07.70
ontheemmis
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
01:50:13.51
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Teachers would come out. We had a few teachers that would come out and smoke cigarettes too. And um, you know that's not even my biggest complaint. It's it's like okay if that's what's happening but it's the mental health that they miss and.
01:50:14.64
ontheemmis
Smoke with you? yep. Right? right? At this point. Yeah, um.
01:50:30.49
Jo_Anne Liakakos
They really can be the first line of defense and so there's got to be some sort of ah you know readjustment to how they do things.
01:50:32.17
ontheemmis
Yeah.
01:50:39.00
ontheemmis
Yeah, yep, yeah, that is the whole other podcast. Maybe once I'm done with this semester you and I can do a podcast about the mental health industry in general because good God It's yeah, it's a mess. Um.
01:50:47.36
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Ah, yeah, for sure I would love it. Yeah yes, it has been great.
01:50:57.25
ontheemmis
This has been awesome which is no surprise to me I knew it would be great. Thank you So so much for coming on like really I yeah.
01:51:04.75
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Thank you for asking me and including me in this journey. You're on, Um, it's It's amazing. So I feel honored that you'd even asked me to do it.
01:51:15.94
ontheemmis
Well thank you? Yeah I I talk about you so much I tell that story of me coming into your office and being terrified to say I don't think I'm an alcoholic and that you basically were like oh thank God Finally like I've been waiting for you.
01:51:24.42
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, right right? yeah.
01:51:32.31
ontheemmis
You know? So um, everybody has heard me talk about you and I'm glad they've gotten to experience your loveliness. Um, do you want me to put um contact information website information. Okay I can put all that in the show notes.
01:51:37.82
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Thank you I appreciate it.
01:51:44.94
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Sure.
01:51:49.67
ontheemmis
Anybody that reaches out to me from Atlanta that's like I'm looking for a good therapist I'm like here's a number her name is Joanne tell her I sent you like all the dive. So yeah I would I would definitely ah pass all that on so well. Awesome. Well I will. Ah.
01:51:53.33
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Right? right.
01:52:01.29
Jo_Anne Liakakos
Yeah, sounds great. Sounds great. Thanks bye.
01:52:07.50
ontheemmis
Talk to you very soon? Okay, right.
ontheemmis
So there was Joanne I hope you enjoyed that I really really enjoyed it I I just love talking to her so much. Um, so just some quick housekeeping like I said I've been really sick the past couple weeks so I did have to reschedule my. Recording my interview with ah Janja Lalich which I was very bummed about but we are going to reschedule and we will do that soon here in the next couple of weeks. Um, probably by the time this episode comes out. I will have been interviewed on Roberta Blevins Podcast it's called Life After MLM Roberta Blevins was one of the um she was at the top of the pyramid in LulaRoe ah years ago when kind of all the drama and scandal started happening with them and she has since left and. Become an advocate for you know, ah holding multilevel marketing pyramid schemes accountable for the harm that they cause and she and I connected on Instagram and you know, kind of gone back and forth and um, ah so I'm gonna go on her. Her podcast and talk about what it was like growing up in an MLM and how I feel like that. Um ah helped as far as you know me joining me hand programs and ah you know, kind of being successful as far as success is defined there so that's going to be awesome. I'm trying to think if there's any other I am probably going to take you know after I've got a couple more episodes set up to record and I've got a couple that have already been recorded that need to be published but kind of once I get through that I'm going to take a break because um I you know. Have a lot going on and I need to take a break and take care of my mental health and my physical health because those things are important. Um, so yeah, I'll probably take a you know like a 2 or three month break I may you know get started back up in the spring. Um. But in the meantime I will be around I will be on Instagram I will be on Twitter um, please please please look up the Accountability in Congregate Care Act. ACCA is being presented this week so please do some research on that sign. Whatever petitions are going around. Donate money if you can do whatever do ah anything and everything you can to help us get this legislation passed because it's very very important and there's tons of information out there I have it on the link treee I have a ah link to it on my linkree on the Instagram Account that's linktr.ee/ontheemmispod
02:43.68
ontheemmis
Flash on the Ms Pod and if you need to get in touch with me for any reason you can email me at on the ontheemmispod@gmail.com and I want to thank Mikey who is my audio video editor. He is fantastic and my producer Adam. And all of you all of you who listen all of you who tell your friends. Thank you, thank you? Thank you so much and stay safe out there and take your meds bye.