Mapuche Ancestral Rights and Political Prisoners in Chile's Wallmapu - with Anne Petermann

The Mapuche people of Chile are fighting to reclaim ancestral lands taken over by vast industrial eucalyptus and pine plantations established during the Pinochet dictatorship in the 1970s. Their struggle goes beyond land ownership—it's about reclaiming culture, spirituality, language, and food sovereignty while facing criminalization under Chile's new "usurpation law."

• Mapuche territory (Wallmapu) was initially protected by treaty but later seized through what the Chilean government called "pacification of the Araucanía"
• Industrial tree plantations have destroyed native ecosystems, depleted water resources, and created conditions for devastating "megafires" and "gigafires"
• Chilean authorities use "preventative prison" to hold Mapuche activists for up to two years without formal charges or trials
• Militarization of Mapuche territories has led to surveillance, intimidation, and targeting of young activists
• The controversial "usurpation law" criminalizes land reclamation efforts, violating international indigenous rights agreements Chile has ratified
• The struggle connects to broader patterns of indigenous land theft for industrial tree plantations under dictatorships globally
• Land reclamation is essential for Mapuche cultural revival and addressing extreme poverty

On this episode of Breaking Green, we spoke with Anne Petermann.  Petermann co- founded Global Justice Ecology Project in 2003. She is the international coordinator of the Campaign to STOP GE Trees, which she also co founded. Petermann is a founding board member of the Will Miller Social Justice Lecture Series. She has been involved in movements for forest protection and indigenous rights since 1991, and the international and national climate justice movements since 2004. She participated in the founding of the Durban group for climate justice in 2004, in Durban, South Africa, and Climate Justice Now in 2007 at the Bali Indonesia UN climate conference. She was adopted as an honorary member of the St. Francis- Sokoki band of the Abenaki in 1992 for her work in support of their struggle for state recognition. In 2000, she received the wild nature award for activist of the year.

Photo by Orin Langelle.

For more information visit: https://globaljusticeecology.org/brazil-2023/

This podcast is produced by Global Justice Ecology Project.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Breaking Green
• 0:29 Mapuche Land Reclamation Struggle
• 2:15 History of Pine Plantations in Chile
• 6:05 Mapuche Culture and Land Connection
• 8:28 Political Prisoners and Preventative Prison
• 16:48 Plantation Fires and Environmental Threats
• 22:09 The Controversial Usurpation Law

Transcript

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The Mapuche people have been mobilizing to reclaim their ancestral lands

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in Chile,

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which have been taken over by vast industrial eucalyptus and pine plantations

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established during the Pinochet dictatorship in the 1970s.

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This land recovery

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is part of a broader effort by the Mapuche to reclaim their culture,

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spirituality, language and food sovereignty for their communities.

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However, a new usurpation law has made these land recovery efforts illegal,

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putting those who attempt to claim land or grow crops at risk of imprisonment.

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On this episode of Breaking Green.

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We will be speaking with Anne Petermann, who led a delegation to Chile in October

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of 2024 to interview Mapuche communities, activists and political prisoners.

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Anne Petermann is executive director of Global Justice Ecology Project.

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She has been involved in movements

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for forest protection and indigenous rights since 1991,

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and the international and national climate justice movements since 2004.

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She participated in the founding of the Durban Group

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for Climate Justice in 2004, in Durban, South Africa

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and Climate Justice Now in 2007 at the Bali, Indonesia U.N.

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climate conference.

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Petermann was adopted as an honorary member of the Saint Francis-Sokoki

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band of the Abenaki, in 1992 for her work in support of their struggle

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for state recognition.

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In 2000, she received the Wild Nature Award for activist of the year.

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Anne Petermann,

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welcome to Breaking Green.

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Thank you so much for having me Steve.

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Anne Peterman, October 2024, you led a delegation to Chile.

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Please tell us a little bit about that.

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This October, was actually 20 years since the first time we went down to Chile.

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And this was our seventh time going to Chile.

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And we've been, you know, very interested and involved in the Mapuche

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People's struggle against industrial pine plantations and eucalyptus plantations,

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which is part of our overall program of supporting Indigenous Peoples,

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and their rights to have their own lands and not have

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their lands be taken over for timber plantations.

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And this particular delegation was a little bit different

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than other ones, because we were specifically looking

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at the political repression by the government, by the military, etc.,

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against the Mapuche people for trying to reclaim their lands.

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So what do tree plantations

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have to do with, Mapuche Indigenous struggle?

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Well, the

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people have been in Chile, you know, for thousands of years.

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And then the Chilean government came along and there was a, an agreement

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with the Mapuche people

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that they could have all of the territory south of the Bio Bio River,

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which is a major river in Chile.

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And, you know, that lasted well,

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it didn't last all that long.

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In the 1860s, the government of Chile

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decided they wanted that territory, the Mapuche territory.

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So they took it through what they called, ironically,

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the pacification of the Aruacania and the the pacification program

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was actually a series of massacres and forced displacements,

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where people were put on to what they call reductions.

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But in the United States would be thought of as reservations.

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So they lost a lot of their territory during that time.

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Although much of the land

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was still ecologically intact, there were still native forests.

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It was still largely, you know,

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the original condition of the land was okay.

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But then, you know, Pinochet's

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dictatorship came along in 1973

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and he subsidized the destruction

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of the territory for pine plantations.

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So the government created this law in law 701.

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This decree that

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allowed the timber companies to go in and just take over

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whatever land they wanted to, and completely subsidized the planting of,

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pine trees throughout Mapuche territory.

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So they lost.

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At the end of that period, they lost about 95% of their traditional land.

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And they didn't just lose it

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to other landowners that, you know, continued to have it as forest.

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They lost it to these plantations, that of,

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you know, ecologically decimating, they destroy the biodiversity,

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they deplete the water, you know, they destroy the soil.

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It's it's been a real struggle for them.

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And as a result of that, because their land

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was lost in the 1970s,

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to these industrial tree plantations in the 1990s,

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the people who were children when that happened, by the 1990s,

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they had watched their territory,

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their communities, land, be taken away for these plantations,

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watched the plantations mature and they then became radicalized

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and decided to reclaim, and restore the Mapuche people's

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culture, spirituality and to take back that land.

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Right. So there's there's a lot of,

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tree plantations,

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monoculture tree plantations in Chile.

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So pine and eucalyptus, which,

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we'll talk about fires a bit later, but there's a loss of biodiversity.

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There's there's fire threats.

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The Mapuche, are,

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struggling to take back land and to, bring back Indigenous forests.

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Am I correct about that?

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Right. Very much. Yeah.

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There's been a major campaign really since the 1990s

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for people to get that land back.

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And not just because they want land for,

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you know, building houses and, 

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the things that people in the United States think about having land for,

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but really to have the ability to sustain themselves,

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to be able to live lives that aren't in poverty.

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One of the, side effects of all of these pine plantations

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and the loss of the land was that people could no longer feed themselves.

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They could no longer grow the crops that they had traditionally grown

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to feed their families and their communities.

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They couldn't raise livestock.

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And as a result, the, you know, many of the Mapuche communities

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live below the poverty line

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so

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it's been very important for people to get the land back just so they can live.

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And otherwise it's it's just been a disaster.

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And the pine plantation takeover of Mapuche

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territory has been a real disaster for the Mapuche people.

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So Anne, the word Walmapu, and the concept,

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what is that and what does it mean to the Mapuche as far as you understand it?

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Well, Wallmapu is the the traditional ancestral territory of the of the Mapuche.

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It encompasses not just their territory in Chile, but also territory in Argentina.

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The Mapuche people were in both countries.

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So it's it's the entire, it's the entirety of their ancestral land.

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So Anne, we talk about the Mapuche,

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taking back land or attempting to take back land, their territory.

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What does that look like?

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Are there legal aspects, what type of struggle

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are we talking about?

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There is a there's a, government,

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entity called Conati that was established

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specifically to deal with Mapuche land claims

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and to try to facilitate or push people getting their land back.

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And it often involves the government buying land

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and getting it to Mapuche communities to have a place to be.

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And they've, you know, done some of that, but it's largely been stalled.

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There's not been very much activity

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through Conati to give people back their land.

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And so there's been a lot of frustration, you know, communities waiting

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and waiting and waiting and nothing's happening.

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And so there's been, you know,

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other activities to take back land, like literally going into pine plantations

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and just taking the

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land and saying, this land has been ours for generations.

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We are taking the land back and taking down the pine plantations

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and restoring the land, either to,

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some kind of a forest or more, more often to agricultural land,

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so that people have the ability to grow their crops and raise livestock.

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A s the Mapuche, take back some of their ancestral territory,

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they organize themselves into almost familial,

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groups, with a lonko.

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Could you talk a little bit about that?

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They're very much, oriented around family.

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And the lonko is the spiritual leader.

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So, you know, in some U.S., research, they're roughly called a chief.

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But it's not really like a chief.

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It's a spiritual leader.

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It's somebody that the community looks to help make decisions, for the community.

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But they're not. They're not.

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It's not like a real hierarchical thing.

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It's more of a spiritual thing.

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And the Mapuche

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loncos, have a lot of responsibility

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for the communities to, you know, look after them.

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Their wellbeing.

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But everybody in the community, it really feels when we went to

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visit people, it really feels like everybody has a role to play.

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You know, and a lot of the communities were talking about how the young people,

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the young men especially, but not just the young men, the young women as well,

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were being targeted in these communities that had taken back land that we visited,

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had been targeted for, arrest, you know, without really any cause.

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Some action would happen somewhere.

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And these young people would be arrested

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without real evidence or justification and put in prison.

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And what we learned when we visited people in prison

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and talk to their families is that it's called preventative prison,

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which is a pretty, kind of a

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grotesque term, if you ask me.

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But preventative prison means that you can be in jail,

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put in prison in Chile, and be there for two years

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without being formally charged or having a trial.

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So, you know, people are just being snatched off the streets

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quite literally, put in jail and kept there

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as a way to cut off the movement,

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to reclaim land, to either frighten other people away from it

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or literally just take away the activists who are involved.

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So you visited some prisons when you were in Chile?

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We did. Yes.

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We started out,

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the first place we went to actually on our delegation was the prison into Temuco.

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Temuco is the largest city in Mapuche territory, in Chile.

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And we started out there. We met with,

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oh, probably about 12 political prisoners.

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And a few of their family members were let in with us.

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So, we had a very, you know, a long and,

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rich conversation with them about the conditions of the prison,

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but also the condition of why they were there, you know, and many of them

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repeated what I just said earlier about having been grabbed off the street

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or, you know, arrested for without cause and being held there,

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not even being allowed to be in person in the courtroom.

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So being on video, doing these video trials, these virtual trials

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where they don't even get to sit next to their lawyer when they're being,

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you know, charged in court or when they're going through

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the different court proceedings.

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So and they challenged that they tried to challenge it

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under the Constitution because it's unconstitutional in Chile.

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But it was defended by the government saying that it was for safety reasons.

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So it was something that was instituted under Covid,

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a lot of these virtual court hearings.

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And then it just after Covid, they just kept it for 

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the Mapuche activists.

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in Chile, there's actually regions where there's different rules of engagement

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for the Mapuche than, in other places

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are for other, segments of society.

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I think I've heard them referred to as red zones and, loose trigger laws.

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Could you tell us about that?

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In the, the territories in Chile,

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in the Bio Bio region in particular, tin the Araucanía region, these are regions

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that where there's there has been a lot of Mapuche activism to reclaim land.

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And as a result of that, especially since

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the people's uprising in 2019,

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there's there's been a militarization of those territories.

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So the government has said, you know what?

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We've had enough of this Mapuche land reclaiming, probably

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because the timber industry is putting a lot of pressure

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on the government, saying, you know, we don't really like this in our, in our,

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in our what they call their territory.

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So, yeah, there's been a lot of militarization.

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The Bio Bio region in particular has,

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has had a lot of violence from the police toward people.

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There's been a huge military presence, people who are activists

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there talk about being surveilled by drones

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that if they drive down the streets, the police pull them over for no reason.

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That they, you

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know, they can't actually go out of their

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communities or they'll there's they fear they'll be arrested.

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So, yeah, there's a lot of militarization.

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And of course, the government spends it as, they need the militarization

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because the Mapuche are such terrible, violent people.

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And so they warn tourists, for example, not to go there.

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That's what you were referring to about being the red zone.

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This is a red zone. Don't go there. It's very bad.

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We were in the red zone and there was it was, you know, people were lovely.

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The only thing that was scary was, was the police.  Their big

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armored vehicles and, you know, driving around and,

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you're never quite sure what they're going to do, but, yeah.

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So there's especially since the people's uprising in 2019, when

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not just Mapuches, but

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people across Chile rose up en masse to demand an end to neoliberalism

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and an end to the economic system that was,

00;14;42;05 - 00;14;45;05
crushing everybody's ability to live.

00;14;45;14 - 00;14;48;21
Ever since then, there's been an especially large,

00;14;49;08 - 00;14;51;28
military presence in the Mapuche territories.

00;14;51;28 - 00;14;54;20
A lot of the, traditional Mapuche land,

00;14;54;20 - 00;14;59;21
is now being controlled by, forestry companies,

00;14;59;29 - 00;15;03;24
and I believe originally some, some forestry was was more public.

00;15;03;24 - 00;15;05;27
But then under Pinochet, they privatized it.

00;15;05;27 - 00;15;08;27
And then they took more Mapuche land.

00;15;09;17 - 00;15;12;05
Yeah. There was, Salvador Allende.

00;15;12;05 - 00;15;16;00
Who was the, more socialist president

00;15;16;00 - 00;15;19;19
that was overthrown in a US back coup by Pinochet.

00;15;20;10 - 00;15;24;02
He was trying to make a lot of the land public and under public ownership.

00;15;24;02 - 00;15;27;16
He was creating publicly owned pulp mills, for example,

00;15;27;16 - 00;15;30;16
to create paper for internal use in Chile.

00;15;30;21 - 00;15;33;18
He gave the Mapuches back land.

00;15;34;29 - 00;15;35;16
Allende did.

00;15;35;16 - 00;15;37;10
He created a land reform policy

00;15;37;10 - 00;15;40;27
that gave them a purchase back 850,000 acres of land.

00;15;41;15 - 00;15;45;26
So, you know, that was there was a really positive trajectory going on under Allende.

00;15;46;04 - 00;15;49;09
And then when when, Pinochet came in

00;15;49;09 - 00;15;53;05
and Allende was killed, that was all just kind of switched off, almost like a faucet.

00;15;53;05 - 00;15;56;05
It just stopped and then everything was reversed.

00;15;56;27 - 00;15;59;27
So, yeah, it's it was,

00;16;00;06 - 00;16;01;29
it was very shocking to see.

00;16;01;29 - 00;16;05;02
But then the pulp mills that Allende created

00;16;05;02 - 00;16;08;19
to be publicly owned pulp mills, of course, were privatized.

00;16;08;19 - 00;16;11;10
And now that's what we're seeing in Mapuche territories.

00;16;11;10 - 00;16;16;03
This huge pulp mill there called Arauco, which is one of the biggest in the world

00;16;16;09 - 00;16;19;24
that is, you know, just devouring the land with their pine plantations

00;16;21;00 - 00;16;21;21
because their,

00;16;21;21 - 00;16;25;14
their demand for raw material is so huge.

00;16;25;18 - 00;16;29;11
Did some of the Mapuche address the impact of,

00;16;29;11 - 00;16;33;18
that industrial agriculture, on their culture?

00;16;35;08 - 00;16;36;06
Yeah, absolutely.

00;16;36;06 - 00;16;40;26
The industrial agriculture, well, the industrial pine plantations,

00;16;40;26 - 00;16;45;14
in particular have had a huge impact on the Mapuche culture.

00;16;45;14 - 00;16;48;14
Their culture was, you know,

00;16;49;08 - 00;16;54;07
for centuries, very much, wedded or intertwined

00;16;54;07 - 00;16;58;18
with the forests, you know, their, their medicine came from the forest.

00;16;58;23 - 00;17;00;18
Many of their foods came from the forest.

00;17;00;18 - 00;17;03;18
The dyes they used for their clothing came from the forest.

00;17;04;02 - 00;17;06;00
Everything came from the forest. It was all.

00;17;06;00 - 00;17;07;23
Everything was intertwined with the forest.

00;17;07;23 - 00;17;12;21
And so when the forests were taken away, when they were taken out of the forest,

00;17;13;00 - 00;17;15;24
and then the forests were turned into pine plantations,

00;17;15;24 - 00;17;20;02
this caused tremendous hardship for the Mapche people.

00;17;20;02 - 00;17;23;25
And that's why much of the Mapuche culture was lost

00;17;23;25 - 00;17;27;00
during that so-called pacification period, when Mapuches were,

00;17;27;19 - 00;17;29;28
removed from their land and many people were massacred.

00;17;31;05 - 00;17;32;11
They were they literally

00;17;32;11 - 00;17;35;24
lost their connection to the land because they were taken away from it.

00;17;35;24 - 00;17;38;10
So when the young people came back,

00;17;38;10 - 00;17;41;18
in the 90s and said, we want to restore our culture,

00;17;41;18 - 00;17;44;28
we want to restore our language, we need to have land.

00;17;45;02 - 00;17;47;27
We need to have our land to make all of that happen.

00;17;47;27 - 00;17;51;05
And so that's been a huge part of this land

00;17;51;05 - 00;17;53;24
reclaim effort is it's not just about having land.

00;17;53;24 - 00;17;58;07
It's about having language, culture, spirituality and all of those traditions

00;17;58;28 - 00;18;03;10
that the Mapuche people lost, over the years because of the repression and violence of the state.

00;18;04;10 - 00;18;07;12
It would be nice to hear the words of  the Mapuche.

00;18;07;15 - 00;18;12;02
So did you, did GJEP, did Global Justice Ecology Project

00;18;12;02 - 00;18;14;17
do any field reporting on this?

00;18;14;17 - 00;18;15;03
We did.

00;18;15;03 - 00;18;18;06
And that was one of the specific specific

00;18;18;06 - 00;18;23;04
intentions of our delegation was not just to go and talk to people.

00;18;23;26 - 00;18;27;11
And hear what they had to say, but to record what they had to say.

00;18;27;11 - 00;18;32;08
So through video, you know, and through audio, through photography,

00;18;32;08 - 00;18;33;08
we recorded

00;18;33;08 - 00;18;34;17
what people were talking about,

00;18;34;17 - 00;18;37;26
what they were showing us, what their experience was.

00;18;37;26 - 00;18;41;18
And one of the things that we did when we met with each community

00;18;41;18 - 00;18;44;22
or each activist was, say, yeah, we don't want to speak for you.

00;18;44;23 - 00;18;46;04
We don't want to be the ones

00;18;46;04 - 00;18;49;12
saying what you are experiencing, what you are feeling.

00;18;49;20 - 00;18;52;02
We want you to tell your own stories.

00;18;52;02 - 00;18;54;29
And so that was part of the whole thing.

00;18;54;29 - 00;18;56;24
And so we came back of it,

00;18;56;24 - 00;19;00;08
came back from there with, you know, an enormous amount of material.

00;19;00;08 - 00;19;03;09
Now, of course, is the challenge of sifting through it and figuring out what

00;19;03;09 - 00;19;06;13
we're going to do with it, and how to make the best use of it.

00;19;06;13 - 00;19;10;16
But people were really open with us, and part of what opened the door,

00;19;10;16 - 00;19;15;00
which was really interesting, was we have a book called Portraits of Struggle,

00;19;15;13 - 00;19;18;23
which documents Indigenous and other struggles over the past

00;19;18;23 - 00;19;22;20
50 years, and a number of the struggles that were depicted in

00;19;22;20 - 00;19;24;20
the book were from Chile.

00;19;24;20 - 00;19;27;10
And so we have a Spanish version of the book.

00;19;27;10 - 00;19;30;10
We gave it to each community lonco

00;19;30;16 - 00;19;34;13
whenever we visited a community or an activist, we gave it to them.

00;19;34;13 - 00;19;40;13
And, you know, it really opened up people's trust with us.

00;19;40;13 - 00;19;43;23
You know, not just that we've been going there for 20 years, but that we have

00;19;44;09 - 00;19;48;24
documented what has been going on in Chile with their own communities.

00;19;49;06 - 00;19;52;29
And as a result of that, you know, people were really open with us.

00;19;52;29 - 00;19;57;04
They really told us what they're experiencing, their fears about the

00;19;57;04 - 00;20;02;09
repression, their hopes for the future that schools that they're building.

00;20;02;09 - 00;20;06;21
I mean, it was it was really it opened up the dialog in a way that,

00;20;07;08 - 00;20;08;29
I don't think would have been possible otherwise.

00;20;10;08 - 00;20;10;26
You met with

00;20;10;26 - 00;20;14;08
political prisoners, the Mapuche consider,

00;20;14;10 - 00;20;17;29
the people imprisoned from their cause, political prisoners.

00;20;18;09 - 00;20;21;09
So you met with Mapuche political prisoners,

00;20;21;14 - 00;20;24;04
and, there must have been translation.

00;20;24;04 - 00;20;26;26
So you're meeting in this prison?

00;20;26;26 - 00;20;31;20
How was how was the prison meeting done logistically?

00;20;31;20 - 00;20;34;19
Was there translation? What what was going on?

00;20;34;19 - 00;20;35;01
Yeah.

00;20;35;01 - 00;20;37;24
We were very happy to be able to have the opportunity

00;20;37;24 - 00;20;40;24
to go into the prisons and talk to the prisoners themselves.

00;20;40;24 - 00;20;45;08
And that was, you know, we had a person in,

00;20;45;08 - 00;20;48;27
in, Chile who was helping coordinate everything for us.

00;20;49;08 - 00;20;52;02
And, you know, it was amazing that he was able to make that happen.

00;20;52;02 - 00;20;53;23
But, yes, we went into the prison.

00;20;53;23 - 00;20;56;01
We weren't allowed to bring any

00;20;56;01 - 00;21;00;16
anything to video or take photos or audio or anything like that,

00;21;00;16 - 00;21;04;10
but we were allowed to take notes, so we took a lot of notes,

00;21;04;14 - 00;21;06;07
while we were in there.

00;21;06;07 - 00;21;09;12
And one of the people that was with us was there specifically

00;21;09;12 - 00;21;13;23
to ask the, the, the prisoners about torture.

00;21;13;23 - 00;21;14;26
Had they been tortured?

00;21;14;26 - 00;21;16;26
He was with a committee about torture.

00;21;16;26 - 00;21;19;05
So he was collecting that kind of data.

00;21;19;05 - 00;21;22;10
We were talking to them about, you know, why were they there?

00;21;22;10 - 00;21;24;16
You know, what was going on with the repression?

00;21;24;16 - 00;21;26;17
What were the situations in the prison?

00;21;26;17 - 00;21;28;15
We met with?

00;21;28;15 - 00;21;31;23
The, the one of the founders of one of the Mapuche

00;21;31;28 - 00;21;35;10
activists youth groups from the 1990s named Héctor Llaitul.

00;21;35;24 - 00;21;38;26
And he talked to us about his situation,

00;21;39;03 - 00;21;42;14
having being a leader and being arrested, basically for being a leader,

00;21;42;14 - 00;21;45;22
for being a spokesperson, not for any actions, but just for what

00;21;45;22 - 00;21;48;22
he said, literally in, you know, in prison for what he said,

00;21;48;29 - 00;21;51;23
and how the Mapuche people are

00;21;53;01 - 00;21;56;02
being disrespected in the prison and that it's violating

00;21;56;02 - 00;22;00;03
their international rights in the prisons because they're not allowed to be

00;22;00;13 - 00;22;02;11
in groups with other Mapuche people.

00;22;02;11 - 00;22;02;27
They're not allowed

00;22;02;27 - 00;22;04;27
to practice their spirituality, they're not allowed

00;22;04;27 - 00;22;06;23
to have their traditional foods.

00;22;06;23 - 00;22;11;00
So all of these things that, that make it more difficult for them as Mapuche

00;22;11;00 - 00;22;12;01
people, but,

00;22;12;01 - 00;22;12;20
you know, all the way

00;22;12;20 - 00;22;15;20
to not being allowed to have their, their traditional medicines.

00;22;15;27 - 00;22;19;07
And that's a big deal because one of the ways

00;22;19;12 - 00;22;21;28
that Mapuche people in prison

00;22;21;28 - 00;22;26;10
put pressure on the authorities to get concessions, whether it's

00;22;26;20 - 00;22;30;11
to be moved closer to their families or whatever, is through hunger strikes

00;22;30;16 - 00;22;34;25
and, you know, these hunger strikes often go on for a very long time

00;22;35;07 - 00;22;39;29
and have a lot of long term health impacts on the people who participate in them.

00;22;40;11 - 00;22;44;08
And so Hector Llaitul, was talking to us about, you know,

00;22;44;08 - 00;22;47;16
all of the different hunger strikes he's been on to try to get these concessions.

00;22;47;16 - 00;22;50;22
And they've had all of these physical tolls on him, and he's not allowed

00;22;50;22 - 00;22;54;05
to have his traditional medicine, which he feels is, you know,

00;22;54;05 - 00;22;58;25
a form of torture to not allow him to be able to,

00;23;00;16 - 00;23;01;12
you know, address his

00;23;01;12 - 00;23;04;12
physical problems with his traditional medicines.

00;23;04;14 - 00;23;07;10
Anyway, it's it was very interesting

00;23;07;10 - 00;23;11;12
talking to the prisoners and listening to what they're going through, what their.

00;23;11;12 - 00;23;13;29
And then we met with their families and heard from their families

00;23;13;29 - 00;23;17;06
what their families are going through, because their loved ones are in prison.

00;23;17;15 - 00;23;23;04
So you also met with, a political prisoner who, through a hunger

00;23;23;04 - 00;23;28;21
strike, was moved closer to his community, and, some sort of agrarian prison.

00;23;28;21 - 00;23;29;21
Correct?

00;23;29;21 - 00;23;31;02
Yeah, that was interesting.

00;23;31;02 - 00;23;34;05
So this was, one of these types of prisons

00;23;34;05 - 00;23;36;24
where you're allowed to go out of the prison and work during the day.

00;23;36;24 - 00;23;39;24
Then you have to come back to the prison at night and be in the prison,

00;23;40;04 - 00;23;43;18
you know, when you're not actually out in the world working.

00;23;43;27 - 00;23;45;21
He was very interesting.

00;23;45;21 - 00;23;48;18
And, you know, he was he talked to us a lot

00;23;48;18 - 00;23;52;23
about the political situation with Mapuches in Chile.

00;23;52;23 - 00;23;56;14
And, you know, that was nice because we were actually able to get video

00;23;56;14 - 00;24;00;05
and photo of him because he was in this, this sort of lower,

00;24;00;18 - 00;24;03;18
security situation.

00;24;03;27 - 00;24;05;04
So that was interesting.

00;24;05;04 - 00;24;09;11
And he showed us his, his garden and his greenhouse and his workshop.

00;24;09;11 - 00;24;12;11
And, so that was that was interesting.

00;24;12;16 - 00;24;15;21
So. Anne Petermann, was there any big takeaway,

00;24;15;26 - 00;24;19;20
singular takeaway from your visit

00;24;19;20 - 00;24;22;20
with, the Mapuche political prisoners?

00;24;22;21 - 00;24;25;04
I would say it's the the

00;24;25;04 - 00;24;28;04
this idea that of preventative prison,

00;24;28;09 - 00;24;34;06
you know, that people can be picked up and just held for two years,

00;24;34;15 - 00;24;38;18
which we ran into that actually in, in 2019 when we were down there

00;24;38;18 - 00;24;43;09
during the People's uprising, we were able to be in the courtroom when

00;24;44;20 - 00;24;45;26
Alberto Curamil

00;24;45;26 - 00;24;48;26
who was a Goldman prize winner, was,

00;24;48;29 - 00;24;53;02
being tried for, this ridiculous crime.

00;24;53;02 - 00;24;54;04
I think he was he was tried

00;24;54;04 - 00;24;59;00
for robbing a convenience store or something with with a fellow...

00;24;59;01 - 00;25;01;18
He's actually a lonko. Lonko Curamil.

00;25;01;18 - 00;25;05;25
And he had won the Goldman Prize because he had successfully stopped

00;25;06;11 - 00;25;09;17
hydroelectric dams on the Cautín River,

00;25;10;13 - 00;25;13;00
which is a a sacred Mapuche river.

00;25;13;00 - 00;25;17;14
And as a result of being so successful in stopping these dams,

00;25;17;14 - 00;25;20;18
he was put in prison, you know, on these trumped up charges.

00;25;20;26 - 00;25;25;25
And he sat there in prison for 18 months before he had a trial.

00;25;26;11 - 00;25;29;12
And his daughter actually had to,

00;25;29;29 - 00;25;33;14
accept the Goldman Award in his stead because he was still in prison

00;25;33;14 - 00;25;37;03
when the Goldman Award was given to him in 2019.

00;25;37;13 - 00;25;37;26
so. Yeah.

00;25;37;26 - 00;25;40;20
This is not a new thing for the Mapuche people.

00;25;40;20 - 00;25;43;17
You know, this is something this is a, tactic that the state

00;25;43;17 - 00;25;47;28
has been using to take activists, out of the way,

00;25;48;16 - 00;25;51;11
and out of the way of development or whatever.

00;25;51;11 - 00;25;53;00
But it's not just, of course, in Chile, you know,

00;25;53;00 - 00;25;55;26
we see this with land defenders, Indigenous land defenders

00;25;55;26 - 00;25;59;19
all over the world that they are targeted for violence and prison,

00;26;00;16 - 00;26;03;01
just for just for defending their lands.

00;26;03;01 - 00;26;05;16
We talked to you about, Brazil also,

00;26;05;16 - 00;26;09;01
there's a lot of, industrial agriculture in Brazil.

00;26;10;02 - 00;26;12;27
And we have industrial agriculture in Chile.

00;26;12;27 - 00;26;15;27
We have Indigenous struggle in both countries.

00;26;16;02 - 00;26;19;11
And, both of those,

00;26;19;24 - 00;26;23;25
and both of those industries started under dictatorship.

00;26;24;26 - 00;26;25;12
Correct.

00;26;25;12 - 00;26;25;23
Yeah.

00;26;25;23 - 00;26;30;10
That's, that's something that isn't very widely known.

00;26;30;10 - 00;26;35;18
But yeah, there's a direct correlation from dictatorship between dictatorships

00;26;35;27 - 00;26;40;08
and industrial monoculture tree plantations, and not just in Brazil

00;26;40;08 - 00;26;41;11
and not just in Chile.

00;26;41;11 - 00;26;45;03
But we saw that with apartheid in South Africa, in other countries, in

00;26;45;03 - 00;26;48;06
Latin America, when they had dictatorships, you know, tree plantations

00;26;48;06 - 00;26;51;12
came in Indonesia, you know, this is something this is a pattern.

00;26;51;22 - 00;26;55;02
You know, the dictatorship comes in people's land is stolen from them

00;26;55;02 - 00;26;58;27
and given to, industrial timber plantations, other things as well.

00;26;58;27 - 00;27;01;20
But a lot of the land goes to these tree plantations.

00;27;01;20 - 00;27;06;03
So we've spoken a lot about the Mapuche culture, the Mapuche, struggle.

00;27;06;19 - 00;27;11;12
But overall these industrial tree plantations, are affecting,

00;27;11;21 - 00;27;15;11
a whole variety of people and communities with fire.

00;27;16;13 - 00;27;17;16
Could you talk about that?

00;27;17;16 - 00;27;17;27
Yeah.

00;27;17;27 - 00;27;21;28
That's, something that in in Chile is a very, very big deal.

00;27;23;11 - 00;27;25;04
Global Justice Ecology Project went down

00;27;25;04 - 00;27;28;04
on a different delegation in 2017,

00;27;28;14 - 00;27;32;28
and this was shortly after the worst wildfires

00;27;32;28 - 00;27;37;03
in the country's history, which was over the 2016, 2017...

00;27;38;09 - 00;27;41;09
Well, our winter there, summer and,

00;27;42;03 - 00;27;45;03
they were the worst wildfires ever recorded.

00;27;45;03 - 00;27;48;19
And they then they started in timber plantations and eucalyptus and pine

00;27;48;19 - 00;27;51;28
plantations, both eucalyptus trees and pine trees

00;27;51;28 - 00;27;56;15
are incredibly flammable and they both are extremely water

00;27;56;15 - 00;27;57;13
intensive.

00;27;57;13 - 00;28;01;11
So with the added, you know, the added bonus of climate change,

00;28;02;00 - 00;28;06;09
driving, you know, heatwaves, you end up with these extremely,

00;28;07;12 - 00;28;11;10
well, these really flammable situations where a strike of lightning

00;28;11;10 - 00;28;14;10
or somebody throw their cigaret out the window or whatever

00;28;14;18 - 00;28;19;14
caused these huge conflagrations that are, you know, more than just a wildfire.

00;28;19;14 - 00;28;22;19
They call them firestorms or they call them mega fires.

00;28;22;19 - 00;28;24;02
You know, they're so massive.

00;28;24;02 - 00;28;26;24
They just destroy entire communities.

00;28;26;24 - 00;28;29;24
They destroy the plantations, they destroy native forest.

00;28;30;05 - 00;28;31;15
They destroy so much.

00;28;31;15 - 00;28;35;11
And now they're saying, you know, it's gotten even worse since that time.

00;28;35;23 - 00;28;37;22
The 2023 fires were even worse.

00;28;37;22 - 00;28;40;23
And they they went from calling the mega fires to giga fires,

00;28;41;24 - 00;28;43;09
because they're just so intense.

00;28;43;09 - 00;28;46;16
So. And many people were killed in the 2023 fires.

00;28;47;04 - 00;28;50;24
So its you know, it's this is something that's not just impacting

00;28;50;29 - 00;28;54;28
the Indigenous communities or the the rural communities.

00;28;54;28 - 00;28;59;02
It's the 2023 fires were in an area that was very touristy,

00;28;59;10 - 00;29;02;22
kind of like these Los Angeles fires that we just had in California.

00;29;02;22 - 00;29;07;14
They don't you know, wildfires are super particular, about who they target.

00;29;07;14 - 00;29;09;07
It's where more where you live.

00;29;09;07 - 00;29;12;24
And, in Chile there's just so many plantations

00;29;12;24 - 00;29;15;24
all over the place in these regions that they're, they're

00;29;15;25 - 00;29;18;25
it's very dangerous to live there.

00;29;19;03 - 00;29;20;01
Because of the fire danger.

00;29;20;01 - 00;29;24;05
Did you talk to any non Mapuche communities that were affected by fire?

00;29;24;17 - 00;29;25;10
Yes, yes.

00;29;25;10 - 00;29;29;18
In 2017 when we were there, we did a whole actual tour,

00;29;30;22 - 00;29;34;05
looking at communities that had been impacted by wildfire.

00;29;34;05 - 00;29;36;20
And so we met with many people.

00;29;36;20 - 00;29;38;11
I don't think we met with any

00;29;38;11 - 00;29;41;25
Mapuche people at that time who had been directly affected by fire.

00;29;41;25 - 00;29;46;20
But we met with a lot of communities that had lost... a lot of families,

00;29;46;20 - 00;29;49;19
I should say, that had lost their homes, that had lost their orchards,

00;29;49;19 - 00;29;53;14
their gardens, their livelihoods, because of these fires.

00;29;53;14 - 00;29;57;03
And we saw with their own eyes that's the, you know, the scorched earth,

00;29;57;21 - 00;30;00;27
which was interesting because where the eucalyptus

00;30;00;27 - 00;30;03;27
had burned down, they were already resprouting.

00;30;04;29 - 00;30;07;18
So, you know, in the, in the native forest, it's going to take

00;30;07;18 - 00;30;11;06
a very long time for the native forest to come back from being burned like that.

00;30;11;16 - 00;30;13;26
But the eucalyptus, that's a fire that's,

00;30;13;26 - 00;30;15;09
you know, they they're involved with fire.

00;30;15;09 - 00;30;16;29
It's a fire dependent species.

00;30;16;29 - 00;30;20;03
And so they were already starting to come back, you know, 

00;30;20;03 - 00;30;23;03
the trees that caused the fire were already returning.

00;30;23;07 - 00;30;25;07
What was the response to your trip

00;30;25;07 - 00;30;28;19
in the media. This, last trip,

00;30;29;04 - 00;30;33;00
we started out with a press conference after the meeting

00;30;33;00 - 00;30;36;18
with the political prisoners in Temuco, we did a press conference outside

00;30;36;18 - 00;30;40;04
with some of the family members of the political prisoners.

00;30;40;04 - 00;30;43;12
And the point was to,

00;30;44;06 - 00;30;48;24
kind of illuminate this racism of the judicial system in Chile,

00;30;48;25 - 00;30;53;19
which really targets Mapuche people and puts them through a lot more,

00;30;53;21 - 00;30;56;21
legal rigors than they do other people.

00;30;56;22 - 00;30;59;25
So, yeah, we got, the, the largest media

00;30;59;25 - 00;31;03;03
in that Mapuche territory, which is called Bio Bio Radio.

00;31;03;03 - 00;31;04;28
So that was a really worthwhile endeavor.

00;31;04;28 - 00;31;09;06
And, you know, not just for GJEP, of course, but for the families

00;31;09;06 - 00;31;12;06
to talk about their political prisoner relatives.

00;31;12;17 - 00;31;15;21
They the the people in Chile, the Mapuche people

00;31;16;29 - 00;31;19;06
really get a hard time in the press.

00;31;19;06 - 00;31;21;18
I mean, while we were there.

00;31;21;18 - 00;31;24;00
Well, just the response to that story.

00;31;24;00 - 00;31;27;25
There were so many haters on the social media of Bio Bio Radio,

00;31;28;04 - 00;31;32;15
even some haters on our own Global Justice Ecology Project, social media,

00;31;32;15 - 00;31;36;12
they just get an unbelievably unfair shake.

00;31;37;00 - 00;31;40;21
From the media, the fact that we were able to put

00;31;40;21 - 00;31;45;02
a little bit more into the media from their perspective was was good.

00;31;45;02 - 00;31;48;02
I felt like that was a very positive thing that we were able to do.

00;31;49;14 - 00;31;51;24
What is the usurpation law

00;31;51;24 - 00;31;54;24
that's been used so much against the Mapuche?

00;31;55;14 - 00;31;57;20
Yeah. So this is a new one. 

00;31;57;20 - 00;32;01;07
The Mapuche people have been trying trying to reclaim their land

00;32;01;07 - 00;32;04;04
for quite a while, and the government has been getting,

00;32;04;04 - 00;32;07;04
I guess, less and less enthusiastic about it.

00;32;07;15 - 00;32;12;11
And so they've actually created a law now called the usurpation law,

00;32;12;11 - 00;32;15;27
which makes it illegal to do these land occupations.

00;32;16;08 - 00;32;21;16
So one of the women that we met with, a woman named Sarah, was the first person

00;32;21;29 - 00;32;24;29
in her region, arrested under the usurpation law.

00;32;25;08 - 00;32;28;08
And she's going to trial right now.

00;32;28;15 - 00;32;30;09
For plowing her land.

00;32;30;09 - 00;32;32;18
She was arrested for plowing her land.

00;32;32;18 - 00;32;36;08
And, the tractor, the person who owned the tractor was arrested as well.

00;32;36;19 - 00;32;41;12
So, you know, it's it's really this absurd law that actually,

00;32;41;19 - 00;32;45;06
in and of itself is illegal. This an illegal law.

00;32;45;06 - 00;32;48;27
It violates international indigenous rights laws

00;32;49;06 - 00;32;53;11
such as ILO 169, you know, which gives Indigenous Peoples

00;32;53;11 - 00;32;57;08
the rights to have land, and it violates the UN declaration

00;32;57;08 - 00;33;00;27
on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which is much more strong

00;33;00;27 - 00;33;04;04
in giving Indigenous Peoples the rights to land and water and so forth.

00;33;05;14 - 00;33;07;11
And Chile is signed on to both of those.

00;33;07;11 - 00;33;11;16
It's ratified both of those things, and yet they pass

00;33;11;16 - 00;33;14;26
this law that violates both of those international treaties.

00;33;15;12 - 00;33;18;05
So, people are really rising up

00;33;18;05 - 00;33;21;26
against the usurpation law, are trying to raise awareness about it.

00;33;21;26 - 00;33;25;11
And Global Justice Ecology Project to try to help with that as much as possible.

00;33;25;11 - 00;33;27;27
We have an action alert that closes today.

00;33;27;27 - 00;33;30;27
Well, today being the day that we're doing the interview,

00;33;30;29 - 00;33;33;11
on the 28th of February,

00;33;33;11 - 00;33;36;20
which is demanding that the board government,

00;33;36;28 - 00;33;41;18
repeal the usurpation law that Sara who's being tried

00;33;41;18 - 00;33;45;23
that her charges are dropped, that no one else has tried under this law and

00;33;45;23 - 00;33;49;21
trying to raise awareness about the fact that it sets such a dangerous precedent

00;33;50;06 - 00;33;53;06
by saying that, you know, countries can pass laws

00;33;53;06 - 00;33;56;05
that violate these international agreements.

00;33;56;12 - 00;33;58;27
So we're we're going to we're watching that very carefully.

00;33;58;27 - 00;34;01;25
We understand that March is going to be a big month

00;34;01;25 - 00;34;05;24
for political prisoners in Chile, political Mapuche prisoners in Chile.

00;34;06;06 - 00;34;07;18
So we're keeping an eye on that.

00;34;07;18 - 00;34;10;18
And, doing as much as we can to support

00;34;11;02 - 00;34;14;02
the struggle of the people to take their land back,

00;34;14;02 - 00;34;18;08
which is their right as indigenous people and cannot be taken away from them

00;34;18;08 - 00;34;21;22
by these, these ridiculous laws like the usurpation law.

00;34;22;20 - 00;34;26;25
Also, there's been somewhat of a back and forth legally.

00;34;26;25 - 00;34;30;10
I mean, the Allende government gave Mapuche a back their land

00;34;30;22 - 00;34;33;22
and then it was taken back from, you know, it was

00;34;33;22 - 00;34;36;14
then it was taken back by the Pinochet government.

00;34;36;14 - 00;34;41;11
So and there was actually some treaty to that is not being respected

00;34;41;11 - 00;34;43;02
regarding the Mapuche.   So. Yeah.

00;34;43;02 - 00;34;46;28
So two centuries ago, there was a treaty that was signed with them,

00;34;46;28 - 00;34;51;20
a push, a people called the Tapihue Treaty that gave them all of the territory

00;34;51;20 - 00;34;55;17
south of the Bio Bio River in Chile, which is a huge territory,

00;34;55;17 - 00;34;57;27
which was, you know, their, their traditional land.

00;34;59;00 - 00;35;01;20
And then it was only

00;35;01;20 - 00;35;04;27
what, 35, 40 years after that, that they

00;35;05;04 - 00;35;08;21
that the, the government of Chile decided they wanted that land back.

00;35;09;03 - 00;35;11;10
They didn't want the Mapuches to have that that land.

00;35;11;10 - 00;35;14;10
And so they launched the pacification of the Araucania.

00;35;14;20 - 00;35;17;06
When they and they went in and displaced people,

00;35;17;06 - 00;35;21;22
put them in reservations and, massacred large numbers of people.

00;35;22;03 - 00;35;24;22
So it's been a, yeah, the, the situation with the Mapuche

00;35;24;22 - 00;35;28;08
has been a real rollercoaster over the years, you know, more off

00;35;28;08 - 00;35;29;03
than on.

00;35;29;03 - 00;35;32;02
As far as, you know, getting their rights back.

00;35;32;02 - 00;35;36;24
But people are determined this is not something that they're going to give up.

00;35;36;24 - 00;35;40;08
You know, they're not going to give up their right to have ancestral territory

00;35;40;12 - 00;35;44;09
and a place to grow food and have livestock and a culture

00;35;44;13 - 00;35;47;12
and a spiritual existence that is their own.

00;35;47;12 - 00;35;50;21
Anne Petermann, thank you for joining us on Breaking Green.

00;35;51;02 - 00;35;52;21
Thank you so much, Steve. This was really fun.