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Fire command and leadership conversations for B Shifters and beyond (all shifts welcome)!
B Shifter
4 Alarm Fire in Lincoln, NE
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This episode features Josh Blum, Chris Stewart and John Vance.
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This episode was recorded on March 19, 2025.
Lincoln Fire Department demonstrates Blue Card implementation during a fire involving three structures in sub-zero temperatures.
• Incident began with one fully involved structure that had already spread to exposures on both sides
• Battalion Chief established defensive strategy for main fire building while directing offensive operations in salvageable exposures
• IC maintained disciplined radio communication despite managing 13 companies across three structures
• Company officer successfully stepped into Division Supervisor role when command staff was limited
• Strategic decision to transition Delta exposure from offensive to defensive prevented resource waste
• Effective use of deck guns and aerial operations to control main fire while protecting exposures
• Incident demonstrates value of critical factor-based assignments over standard arrival-based protocols
• Fire occurred in extreme weather conditions that complicated access and operations
• Lincoln FD's commitment to After Action Reviews reveals areas for improvement despite successful outcomes
Join us in Cincinnati for the Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference, September 29-October 3rd. Register now at bshifter.com to secure your spot!
Episode Introduction
Speaker 2Welcome to the B Shifter podcast. Today you've got John Vance here, along with Chris Stewart and Josh Bloom, and we have a few topics going. We have some audio coming up from an incident in Lincoln, nebraska, that we'll be playing the audio and then having some commentary on the audio. Really good stuff, really great blue card execution and a lot of moving pieces and parts to that. So we'll get to that in a little bit. Josh, it's good to see you today. How are you doing?
Speaker 3I'm doing great Happy to be on here with you all. This three hour time difference is a little challenge for us with being in Phoenix and me being in Cincinnati. But yeah, it's all good.
Speaker 2Thanks for staying up late.
Speaker 4It's late and windy in Cincinnati.
Speaker 2Well, we just wrapped up a class here today, and when we do that, we get on and do a podcast afterwards, so that's why we're a little later in the day as far as our taping time goes. We are going to be in Cincinnati, ohio, at the end of September, beginning of August or October rather, for the Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference. We are very, very excited about that. We've got some great classes coming to that conference this year, as well as five pre-conference workshops. You can go to bshiftercom to find out more, get your course descriptions, especially with the workshops on there right now. We'll be filling in more information in the coming days on some of our instructors, but we have what is it like? 23 unique classes this year.
Speaker 3Yeah, at least I think, 23 or more unique classes with, you know, quite a change up from the first two years as far as what classes are being presented and presenters, additional presenters. So super happy to get John Cirillo back to our conferences. He was coming to them for a long time South Bend, I think. He came to one or two in Phoenix that we did, and it wasn't for any other reason than we weren't doing conferences. And then when we started him back up he just couldn't make his schedule work. But I jumped right on him last year right after the conference ended and got him on board. So, looking forward to that, he's going to do a general session and a couple breakouts and talk about some events with wind-driven events not necessarily high-rise events, but wind-driven events that they've had at the FDNY and then talk about some other fire science and flow path stuff, as he always does so well. You know, very well-respected company officer and really the guy, I think, on wind-driven events Him and a few of his colleagues, when they put all of that stuff together, really focused on high-rise but wind blows at every level. So I'm super excited about that. And then we've got Dan coming back again this year and I think this will be that he will be at a. I'm pretty sure he's been at every conference that we've done, so I'm super excited about that and he's changed up and got some new things that he's going to talk about. He's doing a general session and a couple of breakouts. His breakout session is going to be what I'm most excited about, really, because he's going to really try to talk and tie together some thinking on the fire ground and tie together fire dynamics, building construction, ppe and our tactics. So I'm not sure how he's going to ever get through that in an hour and 15 minutes or so, but regardless it'll be excellent and there'll be a lot of takeaways from that.
Speaker 3And then we've got Shane coming back from NFSA. He's going to do a general session. He's got some new things to talk about, with a lot of stuff they've learned in you know the really what the last five months since the conference with EV fires and sprinkler systems, and we're looking forward to hanging out with him and catching up. And Chris and I actually be spending some time with him next week here in Cincinnati at a big box class. That's going to be a good one because we've got a local fire department just had a fire in a very large Amazon distribution center that was totally contained by two sprinkler heads, and so that'll be that'll be nice to talk about here while while he's here, and the folks from that local jurisdiction to get to talk to him about their experience there.
FDIC Booth Announcements
Speaker 3So, other than that, all the breakouts and, like you said, john, the website's up from the new. The website for the conference is up from our new website, which you know super exciting too. I love the way that looks. It gets better every single day, more and more moving parts and much more interactive. So I know we're adding every day more and more information about the conference as far as the specific topics of instructors, but you can register now and you can see everybody who's teaching. We're just starting to add some more information on their bios and specific class description, and you can also find the conference hotel room rates there and the other events that we're going to be doing during that week. So yeah, it's hard to believe, but really it's not that far away.
Speaker 2So sign up, get, get your room. The room blocks are being held right now and they ran out last year, so make your, make your reservation now and commit to being with us September 29th through October 3rd at the Sharonville Convention Center in Cincinnati, ohio. Really great place to have a conference, great venue, inexpensive. It's a lot of learning for not a lot of money. And we also have a little event on Thursday night. We invite everybody over to have a little networking and social time with one another. Plus, lunches are included for the fee, along with snacks, so it's really a great value for a conference. So we've got Chris here and Chris is also going to be at FDIC with us, so we might as well just plug our booth there.
Structure Classification Question
Speaker 2We're going to be in the Hoosier Corridor. If you want to come by and talk to any of us with Blue Card, it's a great opportunity to ask those questions, especially if you've got a fire chief or an ops chief or somebody that maybe has some misconceptions or want to get more information on Blue Card and what we're doing as far as command education goes. See us in the Hoosier Corridor. Stop by, say hi, and we're doing as far as command education goes. See us in the Hoosier Corridor. Stop by say hi, and we're also scheduling some appointments for Eric. Since Eric's not here and not able to speak for himself, we're going to schedule those appointments right now, as we should. Yeah, no, seriously, we've got a time with Eric Phillips, and Eric has put together our After Action Review Module which is available to Blue Card instructors. And if you want some one-on-one 15 minutes or so with Eric, drop us a line. We'll schedule an appointment so you can have a dedicated person talking to you one-on-one about the After Action module and how that works.
Speaker 4He's been so popular with After Action model Josh and I now have to actually schedule appointments to talk to Eric, so he's become that important and driving this. So and rightfully so, because it's fantastic.
Speaker 2All right, we've got a question real quick from Danny Birch, who sent this in, and I'm going to bring this up on our monitor here. On our monitor here, and this is regarding what we call the backside of a really it's kind of a walkout basement, so I'll show the picture here, so the viewers at home that are watching on YouTube TV will be able to see. Maybe not everyone will be able to see it, but if you are watching us or you're watching us on one of our social media platforms, you'll be able to see it, but if you are watching us or you're watching us on one of our social media platforms.
Speaker 4You'll be able to see this the way you just said that, jv. It reminded me of the uh jungle cruise at disneyland, the backside of water yeah, and then I shoot a hippo right after that.
Speaker 2Right, exactly. So this danny sent this to us and this is the alpha side of the building and we'll have this so all the viewers can see it, and the alpha side looks like it either might be a walkout or might be on slab, and then, as you go around, you can look at the Charlie side. And the Charlie side of this, and this is what Danny is asking is what would you call this structure from the Charlie side of this? And this is what Danny is asking is what would you call this structure from the Charlie side? What would you call it? Chris?
Speaker 4Yeah, so if I looked at this, I'm doing a 360. First of all, man, this is built on a heck of a slope right, so that's why there's such a drastic grade change between the AlphaView and the Charlie View. So to me this is three stories from the rear right. So it's likely that that lowest level, where the man door is there just to the right in the photo, is an unfinished basement it would be my guess. And then the floor above, and then the floor above that, the second and third level looking from this side, and that third level being and third level looking from this side, and that third level being the street level from the alpha side. Those are obviously finished portions and living area of the home. So to me that's three stories from the rear.
Speaker 2Josh, we get asked this question frequently on how articulate uh, three stories from the rear, two stories from the rear. Is that the the regular vernacular that we would use with blue card?
Speaker 3yeah, I mean whatever people really in their own organization and in their area decide to call it is what they call it, right? I mean it's like, uh, we don't say swamp coolers in Cincinnati, but we say you know RTU units, you know rooftop units pretty simple, and they call them, you know, swamp coolers. So as long as everybody knows what you're really saying and I think the way to fix it is go get a ton of pictures and, within your own organization, come up with what do we call this? So it might be two stories, two stories on the alpha side and three stories on the Charlie side, or three stories in the rear with a walkout basement. So it is three stories then on that Charlie side. Or you could say, like Chris said, this is three stories on the Charlie side, including a walkout basement.
Speaker 3I mean, however you describe it is how you describe it and you know what really matters with that kind of terminology is that your organization and the people who you work with are on the same page with it. So you know if you go to the East Coast there's some other. You know different styles of basements that you're seeing, or cellar spaces, or you know limited access going into. You know, apartment buildings and all of that, and those places just have to really, on their own, decide what are we going to call this, what makes the most sense for us, and once you decide what you're going to call it, then everybody trains on that and then everybody gets to be on the same page. I compare that to the swamp cooler and rooftop unit, example, or what people call their hose loads or or any of those kinds of things. Right, because it's it's describing something on the fire ground.
Speaker 3That isn't science, it's a building construction thing that may be unique to your, you know, specific area. The important thing that we talk about is actually communicating how many stories it is and then, if it does have a basement, because you know that's a whole, that's a game changer for us, you know, and in our own area this is, we're in the six week window in our Cincinnati area of us not doing well with basements and having some bad events. So we were just having a discussion the day before yesterday about all the dates right now, you know, starting with Bill Ellison in 2001, you know, dying in Miami Township in a basement fire. So you know, it's important that we, you know, communicate that it has a basement and then understand the risks involved with basements, and I know I've repeated myself 10 times, but I'm going to go back to it again. What you call it, I don't think matters as much as making sure that whatever you're going to call it is what everybody's going to call it and that you define it and everybody is trained in that same way.
Speaker 4Yeah, I don't think there's a giant glossary of the official B-shift or blue card definitions. Right, there are certain things that are very, very important to us that we utilize in a standard way of common language, like nothing showing smoke, showing working fire, defensive fire conditions All four of those have very specific, clear definitions, clear definitions. But then when we get into these unique structures that are local or regional, that, like Josh says, come up with whatever the name for that is and make sure that everybody knows what it is and that's what everybody calls it right. And so my example is when we were teaching in North Carolina, the guys came up and asked us so what do you call these houses?
Lincoln Fire Audio Introduction
Speaker 4So on the coast there they've got those houses on stilts right because of the storm surge and they're like well, what would you call it? And I'm like I have no idea. I've never seen a house like that. What do you call it? You have to figure out what that is, and when you call it a house on stilts, everybody knows exactly what that is. So I don't know that we're going to be able to provide all the definitions for everything in the world, but that guidance that Josh is talking about I think is really important.
Speaker 2So today we have some audio from the Lincoln, Nebraska Fire Department. Josh, could you set the stage on what we're going to listen to today?
Speaker 3Yeah, so this fire happened about a month ago I think it was February 19th, I'm pretty sure and the midst of some pretty significant weather, what I would call significant weather, but for them probably, just you know, normal winter, I do believe it was well below zero, zero, had been below zero for a while. Um, so a little background just on when and like some weather condition things, it was in the evening. Um, the, uh, the, the, the wind seemed to play a little bit of a factor with it. When we looked at some of the video from it, road conditions was clearly a factor. And Lincoln, nebraska Fire Department, to just give a little background on them, they are very new into the system. So really I consider anybody who has five years or less using the system new. So really I consider anybody who has five years or less using the system new. But I think they're actually like really two years, I think, into it and they're doing absolutely fantastic with the system. And when they started they said we're going to use the system and we're going to use the whole system and something you mentioned earlier about the AAR stuff they jumped right on that too. I think they have like 15 or so working fires in there that they've already completed after action reports on. And one of the things that I was super impressed with with some of the communications that Eric's had with them is they communicated that some of their numbers, performance numbers based on the AR, aren't where they thought they were and their comment basically was, if we wouldn't have done this AR, we'd have just moved on with it and thought we were doing fantastic, we get a hundred percent. And because they're doing these ARs, they're like man, we we got some areas that we do really, really well and we got some areas that we can improve upon. And my view from the blue card perspective is you know, they're doing fantastic anyway and all of us can always work to improve. I mean, we live in that world. I know people are tired of hearing that, but we're always trying to improve and do better and, you know, put the best thing out that we can.
Speaker 3So in this case, the fire itself well-advanced fire report of reports that the building was being remodeled so a lot of the walls were were open, which just contributed to a lot of rapid fire growth Wood frame, balloon construction Probably 40s, 30s or 40s era, I would say built homes Pretty close together. So when they arrived, the the main fire unit was when they arrived, the main fire unit was from the alpha side anyway was 100% involved and the dash cam footage from the battalion vehicle who got there first, the Bravo 1 exposure had 100% exposure from the basement windows to the peak of the roof. You know, when the battalion got there and then it just kept going from there and then the Delta 1 exposure was not really even well, it was an exposure but it was already on fire also when the battalion got there. So they weren't pulling up on one building on fire, they were pulling up on one building fully involved, two other buildings that were pretty well involved, where the fire was on the outside and making its way to the inside. So as we listen to this, some things to think about is you might base your response and make a lot of your decisions and your experience on. You're going to one house on fire, but when you're going to three houses on fire, you have three houses on fire. So your decision-making and deployment and all of that is very critical for that first-do company officer, because this is one of those cases of they screw it up and it's going to be. You might burn the block down.
Speaker 3So in this case, the battalion did get there first and did a nice job setting it up. I'll just tell you, when I listened to it, the battalion was at max capacity. You know, assigning companies. There was more work to do than he initially had companies to do work, but, either way, I think, did a fantastic job based on the fact there's assigning companies. You know that that ultimately resulted in, you know they, they kept it to those three buildings, which in this case is, you know, really good.
Speaker 3So I think I mean, john, we can probably include, you know, some of those clips, not the whole thing necessarily, but some of those clips. When we put this up and it's on for those who are going to watch it on YouTube could, could see some of the. You know conditions on arrival. So, um, they, they did it. He did a nice job using the system, didn't have probably the. He probably wishes that he had more command staff that could have supported him as the incident escalated. At one point in here you'll end up hearing that the company officer assigns, gets assigned to be a division boss, but they had no choice. There were so many companies working and not enough staff to fill those positions. So you know that's kind of the lead into it.
Speaker 4So one thing I'd like to say before we get to that is this is a fantastic example of why we talk about having critical factor-based incident assignments or deployment. Right, how we're going to use our companies to deal with the problem. Right? So you're showing up with defensive fire conditions throughout an entirety of a house and you've got the Delta One and the Bravo One exposures taking off on all levels of those houses because of that the auto exposure from the original one. So if we show up with our standard arrival-based assignment system that the first engine does X, the second engine does Y and the first truck does Z, that may not be applicable here. Right, you literally have defensive fire conditions in one place and then you have areas where you're going to try and protect interior spaces on both exposures. So there's too much to talk about there with regards to that. So the IC and this IC does a good job with it is has to make assignments based on the critical factors, and he's got some serious critical factors here on the front end.
Analysis of Command Communications
Speaker 1Battalion wants a location. I can't even tell how big the house is. It is fully involved. This will be first in engine. Go ahead and get a hydrant Truck company. Prepare for defensive operations.
Speaker 1Battalion 1 is going to assume 25th Street. Command will be in the defensive strategy. We've got exposures on both sides. Truck 1, clear set up for defense. Agent 1 is on location. We're going to attack the hydrant at Truck 1, pull past Truck 1, I want you to. I'm going to change your assignment.
Speaker 1Primary search of the Bravo 1 and Delta 1 exposures. Truck 1, primary search of the 25th Street. Command and Dispatch. Give me a second alarm Received second alarm 7-11. Engine 1, I want you to deploy your deck gun as soon as you can. Truck 1, battalion 1, which exposure? Alpha or Delta. Start with the Delta 1. Delta 1. Engine 7, command. Do you want us to come in off of Stack Street? So we're coming in on the Charlie side of the structures? Start my command. Law enforcement advises everybody's out of the Delta 1. Should we move to Alpha 1? Move to Bravo 1. Move to Bravo 1. Bravo 1's starting to catch on fire.
Speaker 1Bravo 1. 25th Street Command and Dispatch. Go ahead. You can mark water in the fire. Give me black hills and LES, but then also send me a third alarm, see third alarm at 713. Step one Command and Dispatch. James, go ahead. Primary, all clear, the first floor. We need a line to the second floor of number one. It's breached and we have a bedroom fire. Yep, I'll get you a line as soon as I can Command to any units, any engines not on location yet. I need an engine to come in from the south, an engine to come in from the south, an engine to come in from the south off of J Street H3 to Command. That's where we're headed. Command Engine 3, I want you to bring in another hydrant line, understood hydrant line Engine 7, command.
Speaker 1We're bringing in the hydrant line from 25th and J. We're coming in from the south, received as soon as you in the hydrant line from 25th and J. We're coming in from the south, received as soon as you bring the hydrant up. We need multiple lines off your rig for fire control N27, receive multiple lines. Command all units. The original fire occupancy, the alpha occupancy, is starting to collapse. First line of command finish change. Moving to third Received. You're moving to the third Kirkland Command. Going to the basement Alpha 3-0-1-1-2-3. Received Charles. Command to Engine 7, I want you to get your deck gun going. Get your deck gun going. Water's coming. Engine 2's on location from the south. Waiting assignment Command Engine 2, I want you to come up to Engine 1 and stretch an Inch-and-3-Quarter line off Engine 1. You're going into the Bravo 1 exposure. It's going to be the two-and-a-half-story balloon frame house for fire control. Engine 2, clear. Engine 3 on location on the south side, waiting assignment. Waiting assignment, command Engine 3, I want you to come up and stretch another Engine 3 quarter line off Engine 1 for fire control in the Bravo 1 exposure. The Bravo 1 exposure. Engine 3, off Engine 1, bravo 1 exposure. Command 2, truck 8,. I want you to come up to the Delta 1 exposure. Command to Truck 8,. I want you to come up to the Delta 1 exposure. We're going to be offensive in the Delta, I'm sorry, offensive in the Bravo 1, offensive in the Bravo 1, and offensive in the Delta 1. The original alpha occupancy we are defensive there.
Speaker 1Alpha 1. I can't hear you Chief. Delta exposure. Command to any LFR chiefs listening. I could use a third chief to the scene. Command to Truck 1, what's your current location? Just like we did Truck 1. Receive. We should have two lines going into the Bravo 1 here momentarily. Two attack lines Engine 8 location, stage south. Engine 1, charge orange. Command to Engine 8,. I want you to bring your crew up to Engine 7, work off Engine 7 for fire control on the Alpha occupancy as well as the Delta 1 exposure. Understood Truck 8, command. Go ahead, truck 8. Truck 8, command. We're moving to the Delta. Can you give us our objective? I'm sorry, I want you to go to the Bravo. Bravo 1. Ventilation Start working on ventilation. Truck 8, receive Bravo ventilation 25th Street Command.
Speaker 1A dispatch, go ahead. Command, send me a fourth alarm and I want the fourth alarm rigs to stage on J Street Clear Fourth alarm units stage on J Street 721. Battalion 2 is on location. I'm going to try to get to your Charlie side, chief Battalion 2,. Actually, what I need you to do is I need you to take charge of the Bravo 1 division, the Bravo 1 exposure. I want you to be the division supervisor for that Receive Bravo 1 exposure.
Speaker 3Who do I have working for me?
Speaker 1Jim, I think I've got eight and one. I think truck one's at site. Just wait, I need to confirm we have working for you. Grand Engine 7, how are we doing from the south? We're getting a good knock on it, but I can't really see the extension yet. On the self-declared exposure, engine 9 is on location 25th and M We'll ask you to hit just one on location Engine 9, 25th and M.
Speaker 1Last unit who just went on? Location Engine 9, 25th and M. Why don't you get a hydrant line and go to the Charlie side? Get a hydrant line and go to the Charlie side of the incident for fire control. Hydrant line on the Charlie side for fire control. Command Engine 1, can you confirm your location? Engine 1 is on the Alpha Delta corner of the Bravo Exposure fire deck. All right, you're still exterior. Just confirming that that's correct. Received Command to Truck 1. Engine 7 Command Delta 1 structure has heavy fire on the Charlie side. We're going to need a line on the Charlie side. Delta 1 exposure. All right, engine 9 is making their way that direction right now. Command to Engine 9, do you copy direct? Need a line to the Charlie side of the Delta 1. Clear, we're still backing up out of 25th Street trying to get around the block. Received Command Engine 7, you may have to shut down a two-and-a-half line to get a line back there while Engine 9's getting into place.
Speaker 1Received First on command. You need to recycle into place. Receive for front command. You need to recycle, right, I want you to recycle, but then, as soon as you've recycled, I want you to get your aerial up for aerial operations Truck 5's in location. We're at 25th and K, truck 5, bring your crew up. Leave your rig in staging but bring your crew up to truck 1 and get truck one in operation for aerial operations. Truck five we're going to have truck one. Truck one, command Go ahead. Truck one Engine three did an initial knock on the second floor.
Speaker 1However, they had to bring the line back down to one because of heavy fire. We're going to need an additional line to the second floor of Bravo One Received. You need another line in Bravo One Command. Engine Two are you working in Bravo One? You should be working in Bravo One, engine Two yeah, we're on the Bravo One hidden exposure. All right, if you're not insideif you're not interior Bravo 1, you need to be interior. We've got fire on two levels Engine 8, command Go ahead, engine 8. We're at the target side of the Delta 1 exposure. We do have fire inside Delta 1 exposure. Can you make entry into the Delta 1 for fire control? Yes, we'll. Command 2, battalion 2. Battalion 2 positioned outside Bravo 1 exposure. All right, you have Engine 3, engine 2, and truck eight all working for you. We've got fire on the first floor and second floor. You should have two lines going interior there. Truck eight's been assigned to ventilation.
Speaker 1We do have a primary all clear of the Bravo 1. Your objectives are fire control, tying to receive threes, twos, truck eights Threes and twos are working on fire control, truck eights ventilation. We're in the offensive strategy. Looks like there's some water on the fire right now. Yeah, we are still command All Units. Just an update we are still offensive in the Bravo 1. We are offensive in the Delta 1. We are defensive in the original Alpha occupancy Command. Engine 9, do you have a hydrant line to the Charlie side yet? Not yet. We're still trying to get a hydrant over here on 26th and K Street. We're going to have to come back between some houses to the alley to get back to where you guys are at. What do you say? Just keep working on it as you are. Command, go ahead, engine 1. Sure, command, engine 1, can you repeat? Yeah, you're welcome, man, we do have some fire on the walls on the uh, on the exposure. We're going to need a chainsaw to start cutting it open. All right, you need a chainsaw or you're getting the chainsaw. I got one. Sounds good Time to to command. I could use an on-deck crew. Eventually, when you get one Command to Engine 10 or Engine 13,. What's your locations? Engine 13, arrive 25th and J Engine 10's arriving. We're behind Truck 5, staging at 25th NJ. Command Engine 10, I want you to go on deck Bravo 1. Engine 10,. Receive on deck Bravo 1. Engine 10, I'm going to have you go all in replace Engine 2, when you recycle. Engine 10 is coming out. We have the same model Command Engine 13,. I want you to go on deck on the Delta 1. On deck on the Delta 1. Engine 13. Received On deck Delta 1. Command engine 7. Engine 7. Are you in a position that you could become the Delta 1 division supervisor? I am All right, I'm going to make you the Delta 1 Division Supervisor. You are going to have Engine 9, engine 8, and you might have to help me out with who else is in that area. I probably want to say I have Engine 7, engine 9, and Engine 8 in that area right now. All right, so you are the Delta 1 Division Supervisor. Anything you need for the Delta 1, go ahead and take care of it. We are getting Truck 1's aerial up to assist as needed and I've got Engine 13, I believe Engine 13, coming up to you to be on deck Truck 1, command. Go ahead, truck 1. Aerials going up. We're going to need a water source. Received, you need a water source. Is there any command from Bravo 1? Truck 1, command Go ahead, truck 1. We're going to shut down operations on the 2 1⁄2 off of Engine 7. We will then pull a supply line off of engine seven to supply truck one. Is that okay? Yes, clear, proceeding. Delta one to engine nine. Delta one. Supervisor to engine nine. Delta one command I can use another crew for on deck. Okay, engine nine. Delta one. I need a second line to the second floor of the Delta 1 exposure. Engine 8 is on the first floor right now. Engine 9,. Claire, we're going to deploy our 400 foot to the second floor of the Delta 1 exposure Truck 8,. I don't think you need to do vertical right now. Engine 8, please move't think you need to do vertical right now.
Speaker 1Detonate to Delta 1. We need ventilation in the Delta 1 explosion. Receive ventilation in the Delta 1 explosion. Commander Truck 5. Truck 5 to Truck 1. They're working on getting our line hooked up. All right, I need one of you guys to break away and start working for the Delta 1 Division. Supervisor Cluzy, they're requesting ventilation. I don't care which crew does it, but let me know which crew can break away. Truck 1 is going to go to Delta. Oh sorry, truck 5. Truck 5 is going to go to Delta, all right, truck 5 is going to go to Delta, all right, truck 5 is going to Delta. Command to Delta 1 Division. Truck 5 is going to be working for you. They can help you with ventilation. Receive Truck 5, delta 1. Help them with ventilation. Bravo 1 Division to Command. You can declare Bravo 1 exposure under control. They're just checking for hot spots doing hydraulic ventilation.
Speaker 1Bravo 1, I had face-to-face traffic. You said you got the fire under control in the Bravo 1? Yeah, just working on hydraulic ventilation. They're going to do a primary all-clear of the base Received. So you've got the fire under control in the Bravo 1. Engine 2 command conditions have improved greatly. In front of the Bravo Exposure we're doing a secondary search as well. Thank you, gary. Delta 1 to Engine 8, give me a can. We are filling up the first floor. Bravo 1, second row we're going to exit structure 5-3.
Speaker 1He's going to come on land.
Speaker 1Delta 1, receive Engine 13,. I need you to take over engine 8 spot on the first floor, engine 13,. Receive Commander Delta 1. Delta 1. Just confirming do you have truck 5 or Truck One working in your division? I got Truck Five right now.
Division Supervision and Strategy Changes
Speaker 1They're reporting that it's not going to be a good idea for vertical ventilation. Right now Our best bet is going to be horizontal. I'm considering we might need to be going defensive on this. Delta One exposure right now. I don't know how much fire we got up in the upper attic. Yeah, I have no eyes on it, so I'll defer to your judgment. Is that something? Delta 1, supervisor to all units working. Delta 1, I want you to exit the structure. We're going to go defensive on the Delta 1. I want a line in place to protect the Delta 2 exposure. I want a line in place for the Delta 2 exposure in case it starts coming out the windows. 25th Street Command All Units. We are going defensive on the Delta 1 exposure. Repeat we are going defensive on the Delta 1 exposure. Everyone in the Delta 1, evacuate the Delta 1 structure and report to the Delta 1 Division. Supervisor for a PAR.
Speaker 3Clearly, as you listen to that, a ton of stuff going on. I mean three buildings on fire, one defensive, two offensive. At the end there they make a transition to another one. That's like we're not going to get out of this. And as I count, I think Battalion one and battalion two had 13 companies working between three buildings.
Speaker 3And then, uh, your strategic ic. He was like I, I can't like you, just, you can't do it like that, the best person can't do it by themselves, right. So, uh, he ends up, you know, using Right. So he ended up, you know, using the engine sevens officer to make them Delta and you got to break it down, right. So it's, it's still the system, right, and it might not be ideal and it might not be textbook, but you know they did what they needed to do to working within the system and everybody understanding the system to get through it.
Speaker 3So you know, I think, right from the get-go, battalion 1, you know, painted a picture of I have no idea how big this thing is because the whole thing's on fire, right and that started it. And then Battalion 1, engine 1, truck 1 are all coming out of the same firehouse. So they were pulling up together. So they told Engine 1 and Truck 1 what he wanted them to do. One truck one are all coming out of the same firehouse so they were pulling up together. So engine they told engine one and truck one what he wanted them to do. You know, right out, right out of the gate, because they were arriving right there together very early on said that they were going to be defensive and that main fire unit, um, called for the second alarm, like right away, cause it's like no, I don't have one house on fire, I have three houses on fire. I'm going to, I'm going to go through resources, you know, very quickly, um, and then shortly after that, after given just two other assignments, you know, called for uh, the third alarm and uh had a focus of getting truck one into those places that could be searched where there could be savable lives and there's two exposures, right.
Speaker 3So I originally assigned them to Delta one. They came back, said hey, police have already been in there, there's nobody in there, and then assigned them back over to Bravo one. And then they got an all clear pretty quickly and every time they changed floors they gave a status change. So you know that was a positive because the strategic IC was tracking okay, where have we been and what have we done, what have we accomplished? And then, where is that company actually working? So once truck one came back, so we got a primary all clear of the entire bravo one exposure, the whole focus and objective became fire control. So, chris, I know you got tons of input on this from what's happened already. So yeah.
Speaker 4So as I'm listening to this and, uh, I'm putting myself in the shoes of IC no 2, battalion 1. Well, he's technically IC no 1. He's the IC the whole time. Right, he got there first. And so I'm thinking all right, this is just like the scene from Talladega Nights where he's got a full-grown cougar in the rig that he's fighting off, like that's the way he feels, and so he's got a hell of a fire going in one occupancy that's consumed the entire occupancy. It's extended to the other two occupancies. So he's got to do something about starting to knock the fire down and knock the BTUs down from that fire going on in that middle house, right, the one under construction, so that he can actually start to get a hold of those houses, the extension on either side of him. And he's at a disadvantage because of the trees, the amount of fire and things he can't see. The Delta 1 exposure. So he's really got his hands full right now. The Delta 1 exposure. So he's really got his hands full right now.
Speaker 4And so I think where the decision making that was solid on the front end of this was all right, I'm writing that center one off. I clearly need to start worried about life safety and then managing the fire in the two exposures, right. Getting that information about Delta 1, okay, I'm not going to screw around with it anymore. The cops have been in there. I haven't had anybody in Bravo one, so I'm going to start getting companies in there and then, and then the initial truck company that's searching in there finding fire. It's actually breached through that the Delta wall of the Bravo one exposure. I know that's a weird thing to think about, but it's gotten in there and so they've got fire in the inside. So they're working through all of this and he's trying to plug companies in, to start to put fingers in the dam because it's leaking from everywhere, right, and so I think he's doing a good job being able to do that.
Speaker 4I'm going to say and this is not a criticism of the Lincoln Fire Department this is the value of having support officers helping IC, the strategic level IC, manage that, because once he got people in places, he's talking and assigning probably faster than he can write, right, and that's a difficult, challenging thing. So having somebody that can actually support him with helping and coordinate his accountability for where he has companies inside. So again, that's not a criticism of them, but it's demonstrating the value of thinking about how for any system, how you're actually going to do that, because if we know anything, politicians resource us not to go to fires. We figure out where our gaps are when we actually go to fires with regards to resources, and so this is one of those times. I think he has a very clear understanding of trying to balance getting defensive water onto the center occupancy, the main fire occupancy, and trying to get lines on the inside. I felt his pain as he's trying to get folks to charge supply lines so that they get water going where they need to, and those take time. Sometimes, as the IC, you're like, hey, that needs to happen way faster. Well, sometimes it can't happen faster, so I appreciate that on both sides.
Speaker 4So when we get to the middle of this, he's starting to have a pretty reasonable span of control and his incident action plan is starting to come together of trying to manage what's going on at Delta One and trying to manage what's going on in Bravo One and ultimately then puts Battalion 2 in the division boss role in Battalion 1, and then has to use a company officer to fill that division boss role in Delta 1.
Speaker 4Interestingly enough, the guy who's probably the least or the most disadvantaged, becoming a division officer, coming off of a fire company to manage Delta One. He makes a fantastic call of hey, we are not fixing this deal. What's going on here in Delta One? We know we already have an all clear. Let's write this one off. We're going to change from interior operations to exterior operations and let me start focusing on the Delta Two exposure. So now the hazard zone's expanding. The IC and the division boss's view has to start expanding to be able to try and manage this and keep it all their arms around the whole thing. So I really appreciate the position that IC1 is in and in trying to manage that moving forward and you getting the most out of his companies as they're going into being assigned.
Timeless Tactical Truth: Command Mode
Speaker 3Yeah, as we listen to this, I keep coming running through my mind all the people who are like, well, shit, I can manage a fire by myself, I can manage a fire by myself. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, we all, we all can manage the hundred square foot house with a couple of rooms off. That gets solved with a couple of hand lines. Right, that goes perfect. But when you the how much work you can really do yourself, how much you can manage, how well you can keep up, how much you your brain is going, you know probably faster than maybe even some of the things that were communicated. As you know, chris, you can't possibly document all of those things, but he really did a good job. Though he was questioning himself, he just wanted to verify, make sure that I'm pretty sure this is who you have, just make sure that's who you have. And actually every time that he said that it came back and it was that is exactly who was in those positions. So you know he was doing, you know really well with that. But that span of control thing is a real thing, right. So it's like he was getting, though he did a fantastic job. He was getting well beyond his span of control, or anybody's span of control, right, like, uh, it was 15 to 17 minutes into the incident before he was able to get on deck companies in the place because there was that much work to take place of assigning all those front-end companies. So, um, yeah, yeah, I mean, clearly they're on the same page, clearly they understand and use the system. They were helping each other. I love the fact that it sounded like there was urgency, but there was no. Like this is out of control. There was no screaming, there was no. I don't feel comfortable, though. The strategic IC, I'm sure, did not feel comfortable with all those companies and had some second thoughts of what was going on. And, chris, to go back to what you said, that the value of having somebody in the vehicle with you to do that support role is is priceless, right, I mean you, I can manage three companies standing on my head. You know, both eyes closed, right, and it's like at a fire that stretched one hand line, but that's not going to happen here. So we have to have a system that can can be the one hand line and grow all the way up to this where at one point I think there's like seven lines off two ladder pipes, two deck guns, going for three houses on fire, and it's like there's a lot of attack positions, there's a lot of companies working, yeah. So that was all I thought really, really good.
Speaker 3And then, you know, circle back around. When he assigned Engine 7 officer to be in charge of Delta and asked them say, he said, are you in a position where you could be Delta? And he said, yeah, I could, I can do it. And they kept at it for a little bit. Right, assigned a couple of companies. The company had to recycle, let's get another company into there. And then you know the that reality strikes of. I'm responsible for this Right.
Speaker 3And who better than the person who was there early on and can see this is not getting any better, like you said, chris, like we are not going to win here and if we don't do something about it we're going to burn down the Delta exposure. So when Delta came back and said, hey, we're going defensive, and command didn't miss a beat and repeated you know, yeah, we're going to be defensive in the Delta exposure, we're going to keep it from going to the Delta 2 exposure. And then, you know, the vision boss of Delta Focus became the defensive incident action plan of, okay, delta 1 is now defensive and my incident action plan is to keep it out of Delta 2. And even communicated that right, like, let's be prepared when a card starts coming out of these windows that the Delta two exposure doesn't, you know, light off.
Speaker 3So, uh, I mean from the beginning, all the way through, it is uh, I mean it was organized. Um, he would have loved to have had probably three or four more bosses there. Right At one point even keyed up on the radio and said call, said call for help. Like, is there any other chiefs that can hear me? I could, I could use some help here, right. So, uh, he didn't get that help right away, so he made the best of what he had with what he had and, you know, assigned another person to fill that role and the the guy did, like you said, a fantastic job, as the Delta boss made a great decision.
Speaker 4So so the the thought that we talk about regularly in training in the system is are we doing everything right or can we be doing everything right in case something goes wrong? So I always like to look back at these incidents incidents I'm involved, whatever Look back and go okay at these critical points. Were we doing? Did we have ourselves organized and coordinated so that if mayday, mayday, mayday happens, or hey, priority traffic, we've got a victim, let's say, in the Bravo 1 exposure? How are we situated right?
Speaker 4And I think, for this big a problem as he had going on early on in this incident, he was as prepared as you could be with that level of resources to be able to mitigate that and were they in the right positions? Did you have lines in place and did you ultimately have crews on deck to be able to support that? And yes, it took a minute and sometimes it's going to take a minute, but that's what we're striving for right, that's what we're looking for. We're trying to organize our companies that way. So in looking back at this again, I'm feeling the pain of that IC. I know that feeling, pain of that. I see, I, I know that, that that feeling in your gut and uh, but he did a really good job of managing that and in a calm way and organizing and trying to put himself in the best position and not only fix the problem but be ready in case something stupid happens.
Speaker 3Now I just want to circle back to is the how well they communicated the. We have primary, all clears and you're just doing fire control, like the IC and division bosses were very clear about that because very early on they had all clears. So the focus is just fire control. So there was no confusion, the assignments lined up with no where your job is just that fire control. And that that's the only problem that they had left, because life safety had been eliminated. Right, they had, they had addressed that. They'd taken care of that component of it. One other thing I just wanted to hit that I just wrote a note on and went over it before.
Speaker 3Sometimes people say at a fire like this, well, the second, third alarm. I thought in your system the second third alarm would go to level two staging. It's like well, the incident commander needed those resources to the scene, he didn't need them parked somewhere else, he needed he had three buildings on fire, right, and really, with three buildings on fire, he's going to end up probably using the resources Like he had three separate buildings that might be a half a mile apart on fire. So the second and third alarm came, you know, right to the scene. And then he made a decision when he called for the fourth alarm had them go to a different location, to a staging location. So I just want to bring that up because when we don't, a month later it comes up as a question.
Speaker 3I thought in the blue card system, when you called for a second alarm, they went to level two, staging, and it's like well, that's all based on how many resources do I need to solve and do the work that I need to do right now? So he had plenty of work to do on the front end of it. He wasn't calling a second and third alarm for replacing company. He was calling a second and third alarm to fulfill those initial assignments. So I just wanted to bring that up and clarify that piece.
Speaker 4Well, let me pile onto that a sec, josh, because with what we were talking about with the support officer, he's not this IC working by himself with, again, the volume of work and the companies he needs. He's not in a position to actually manage pulling companies out of a level two staging location on another channel. He's doing everything he can to hold one channel together, right? So in our system, if you're going to use level two staging, right, that's how you use it, and so his work, the amount of work and what he needed done, he maximized the system to actually be able to get him that, in a perfect system with support officers and piles of response chiefs and all that other stuff, could you make level two staging work? Yeah, absolutely, you absolutely could. That's not what they have, though. So they're maximizing what they have, which I think is an important thing.
Speaker 4And the one thing I would like to ask and I want to be real with our brothers and sisters here in Lincoln is that one thing that I think that they can consider after this fire is the utilization of tickets to get on the radio, and it's not very prevalent at all really in this communication.
Closing Thoughts and Acknowledgments
Speaker 4There was so much communication here and necessary. I'm not saying it wasn't necessary, but the tickets may have allowed the IC to triage some of that communication slightly better. He was very much worried about the Bravo One exposure and when there's conversation going on on the radio of other things happening simultaneously, I'm going to try and shut some of that other stuff out so I can focus on getting the work and people in place in the Bravo One exposure in the Bravo One exposure. So that's just a, that's a blue card. Consideration for our, for our, for our folks in Lincoln is is here's an opportunity to listen to that and say, okay, what happens if we would have, if we've utilized tickets to get on the radio a little bit more effectively? Could that have made this, this organization and this communication a little bit better? That's just what I'm, I want to offer up to them.
Speaker 2Part of the continuous improvement, and we appreciate Lincoln for sharing that audio with us and letting us learn from it. That's how we get better. That's how other organizations learn, especially those that don't go to fires on a regular basis. They listen to this podcast, they pick up, they glean more information and they're able to apply it on their next fire. So we really appreciate them sharing this with us. All right, you guys want to do a Timeless Tactical Truth, timeless Tactical Truth from Alan Brunicini, and today we draw the Queen of Hearts. Wow, that's a Juice Newton song, isn't it?
Speaker 2Playing with the Queen of Hearts.
Speaker 4Did you play that, Did you spin that record? Jv.
Speaker 2I actually went to a Juice Newton concert in 1983. Wow, All right, Queen of Hearts. Regarding the command mode, no mature, refined and reflective command system can be conducted in the open air that is crowded, noisy, smoky and typically very confusing.
Speaker 4Well, this audio that we listened to today, imagine if that was not being done from a strategic command post and someone had been roaming around on that fire ground first of all, as a guy from the desert, it looked unbelievably cold and I don't think you could have made me get out of the car, uh, and so I can't imagine trying to manage that in that environment, in that weather, in that, uh, and with the, the, the legit fire things that were going on there, uh, to do that.
Speaker 3So yeah, we heard it once or twice on the audio where the IC uh heard some radio traffic but needed to verify and he said uh, I need you to repeat that because I was face to face with somebody, right, so even in the car, because he was by himself, because there were so many companies there, right, I mean, there's that, that somebody you know, for whatever reason, made the choice. I'm going to go over here and try to, you know, have a conversation, or, you know, copper, whoever, whoever it was. But uh, you figure, if, if he wasn't sitting in the car, then everybody that was outside would have had something to say. And the closer you are to the incident, the smaller000 feet was sitting in that vehicle with it 70 degrees and uh trying to be as comfortable as he could with everything that he had going on. Because he gets out of that car and gets anywhere near the sidewalk or closer and you've lost scope of anything that you're that you're looking at. And then we know, as soon as you get lost scope of anything that you're that you're looking at, and then we know as soon as you get out of the vehicle that you start missing radio traffic continuously.
Speaker 3And we have so much of that from non blue card system users that we listen to and talk have talked about that. Every time that they say unit repeat, you just missed the mayday and sidewalk command don't work. You know that the people, your, your response folks deserve for you to do your job as the incident commander and stay in your vehicle and listen, be an active listener and answer them when they call on the radio and not be in the position of repeat your traffic unit with traffic, any of that. And I always just jump right to every time you have to say that on the radio that was a, that was a missed May day right there. So, uh, there's a reason why we operate in that position.
Speaker 2All right. Any closing thoughts Chris?
Speaker 4No, I uh, I want to go back to the Lincoln thing. Thank you for sharing that, right, it's uh, when you, uh, when we start sharing things to the world, you're nervous, you're concerned, you're. You know it's not like the fire service is very judgmental, right. So it's a big deal and I greatly appreciate it. Right, and that's a that's a sign of an organization and a leadership that is actually interested in getting better. Now we're willing to to talk about this out loud. We're talking about it out loud and so we're trying to work on getting better. So I know they're that way and I appreciate them sharing that.
Speaker 3I'll shore that up what Chris said yeah, thank you to Lincoln for sharing what they shared and thank you for everybody who shares their audio, because we all get better because of it. It because we get to hear incidents and we get to hear, well, that they it did happen, they did do this right. It's not, you know, some fictitious made up, you know bs that somebody's slinging around. It's like this is. This is the audio right from the incident. And, yeah, thanks to them for sharing it. And we know that they're always looking to do better and, like I said, they're very new into using the system, but they clearly jumped in with both feet and are full steam ahead with it. And I know that Eric Phillips and a few of those other folks talk to them on a regular basis and they're always, you know, looking at how do we improve, how do we do better? Um, what, what tools are out there to help us do better?
Speaker 4So uh yeah, and so I've had the chance to talk to both fire chiefs independently. Right, the, the from Worcester, the fire chief that was from the last audio out how dedicated they are to making their organizations better, and the cool, the really cool thing is, both of these folks have that, and that's you know. If you're a firefighter, having your boss care about you doing a good job and your organization doing a good job, that's a, that's a tremendous thing.
Speaker 2Thanks Chris Stewart for being here today and Josh Bloom, and thank you to the Lincoln Fire Department for sharing their audio. Until next time, thanks so much for listening to B-Shifter.