Identifying Critical Fireground Factors at the Beginning of an Incident

Josh Blum, Chris Stewart and John Vance look at how disciplined size-up and tight language reveal true critical factors and shape an incident action plan that works. We share tools for integrating risk management into strategy, avoiding busy work, and matching tactics to real resources.

• why critical factors drive the incident action plan
• three core size‑up questions that focus decisions
• standard terms for fire conditions and why they matter
• 360 and interior reports as continuous size‑up
• overlaying risk management on strategy in real time
• aligning tactics with actual staffing and capability
• stopping duplication, avoiding busy work, keeping crews safe
• leadership that prevents bad outcomes and sets clear limits

Join us live March 11, 2026 for the instructor webinar on the download center and Blue Card resources. Sign up via the show notes to watch live, ask questions, or get the on‑demand replay. Sign up here: https://streamyard.com/watch/28zvKcGuWhZQ

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This episode was recorded on February 27, 2026.

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Transcript

Welcome & Training Updates

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Hello and welcome to the B Shifter Podcast. You've got John Vance here today, Josh Bloom joining us, and Chris Stewart. And today our topic is going to be critical factors that we identify at the beginning of the incident and how that shapes the incident action plan. And I'm sure the conversation will go on from there. But first, let's check in with the guys and see how they're doing. It's been a few weeks since we got together.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

What's going on with you, Josh? All is good. We're busy. Getting the schedule is filling up quickly, and we really have no very limited space to do anything between now and July 1st. And we're starting to fill up a few weeks July 1st to December. So if you're looking for something, workshop or in person on the road class, reach out to us. Literally every day that goes by, we're you know putting something else on the calendar. So that is all that is all good. And we're, I mean, again, from as far east as you can go to as far west as you can go. And we're actually we have quite a bit of work that we're working on for mostly the ARF program at military installations. Chris can talk about the other part of it, but we got lots of military organizations that are that are looking to get ARF and regular blue card train the trainer workshops and workshops set up. So that's really it. That's all summer hits.

ARFF Programs And Scheduling Changes

SPEAKER_02 2:17

We do have two train the trainers at the AVB CTC in Phoenix with some seats open. I think there's about 10 seats left in May, May 11th through 15th. And you can book all of that at b shifter.com if you're if you're looking for a class. And the other thing, Josh, is we're gonna be heading to FBIC in April. We have some, we were just talking yesterday, some fun stuff planned for the booth with the third edition of Fire Command coming out. Nick's gonna be joining us there. If you have someone within your organization that you would like to talk to us about what Blue Card really is, because a lot of times people just get hearsay. Imagine that, the fire service. That's weird. Yeah, stop by and talk to us. Talk to the folks who work with Blue Card and find out what it's all about. Bring your chiefs, bring your officers, whoever it is. We would love to talk to you at the FDIC booth this year. Where are we located at, Josh? The booth.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, so we're I guess it's the who is it the Hoosier Corridor? Is that what that hallway is still called? Yeah, so we're yeah, we're in that same corridor. So if you know we were where we were last year, we're right there. Or if you just find the the FDIC fire engineering bookstore, we're just around the corner from there. So it should be pretty easy. And we're gonna be in that hallway starting Wednesday. We'll be there Wednesday through Saturday. So stop by, see us, talk to us, ask questions. We can probably debunk some rumors. Lots of John, like you said, a lot of a lot of talk out there of this is what blue card is, this is why you shouldn't do it, this is all of that. But not one person that says that has ever been through the program. So yeah, stop by, see us, and you know, find out for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

And we keep trying to, I don't know, I I wouldn't say hurt Chris, but we we keep sending him to the Midwest. He's a desert boy raised in Arizona, but we we send him to the Midwest. He's he's had a lot of trips lately. Uh you're thought out. I think things are okay with you now, Chris. I I know we sent you to the shores of Lake Michigan and some other places with uh snow and wind, and now you're now your bones are warm again in in Arizona. But you you've got some big stuff planned this summer with ARF, don't you?

FDIC Plans And Blue Card Booth

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, so we have a lot going on with ARF. It seems to be uh picking up uh rather quickly. So we are currently planning. Well, let me take a step back. So we had a train the trainer plan for Phoenix in April. We had gotten a lot of feedback from fire departments and and airports about the difficulty of April within their budgetary planning cycle. So we elected to take the April class and move it back to August, you know, past that January one, or excuse me, July one, you know, new budget uh uh cycle beginning. And so we have done that. So we will be having the ARF train the trainer in Phoenix on August 25th, 26th, and 27th. And then we are currently working on a couple regional ARF train the trainers, both on the the very west coast and one on the very east coast. And those likely will take place between April and September, is kind of the the window we're looking at with those with those departments and those airports. So there is likely to be something reasonably close to departments that have reached out and and shown interest, and and maybe even some that that haven't yet uh talked to us. So uh please pay attention and we'll try and do our best to keep everyone informed.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Great. And don't forget we have an instructor webinar coming up on March 11th of 2026. On this instructor webinar, we will be talking about our download center and all the resources that are available for blue card instructors. This is really going to be helpful for either folks who attended a train the trainer several years ago or just want to get refreshed on all of the resources that are available as a blue card instructor. We've literally got hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of training that departments can do on command. And sometimes that kind of gets lost in the shuffle. So we're gonna step by step go through all of those resources on March 11th with a live webinar. If you want to join us live, sign up. You'll you'll be able to see it live and interact with us, ask questions, and participate. If you just want to sign up and get it on demand, all you have to do is sign up, go to the show notes, and we will send you an email link and you'll also get a video on demand. So if for some reason you're off that day or you miss it, you'll be able to watch it on demand afterwards. But that'll bring you up to date for blue card instructors. Really, what there is in our download center and all the other resources, some new CEs that are out there, the evolution of the entire program. I, you know, we we I think are on our eighth revision right now. So we we keep revising, uh, living in command function number seven, as we say. So so join us on March 11th for that webinar and get up to date on everything that you need as far as instructor tools and resources for your blue card instructor. And if you're not an instructor, but you have one within your department, bug them and say, Do you know about this webinar? Because we want to see what else there is from Blue Card. So uh just give a reminder within your organization if you can.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

John, I do have a I just got uh a couple other things just to mention. So we a few weeks ago now we launched that subscription-based after-action reporting, you know, opportunity, you know, for folks that if you're not an instructor, that that non-instructors will have access to the after-action reporting system. So that's up live and you can, you know, get it right right online once you log into your portal. You can see how that subscription works. So that was that was a request by you know, end users. So that's you know what that's why we went that direction. So uh it doesn't change anything with the instructors, they still have access to it. It's just that non-instructors can get access to the after action reporting system. And then the only other thing I had was we got a couple of silverback leadership modules coming out over the next few weeks. So if you just stay tuned for that, and we'll make sure it's in the buck slip and on any podcast too. But there's three, there's three modules posted now, and two more getting ready to come out here soon. So if you if you've been going through those or keeping pace with those, just keep an eye out. They'll be going live soon.

New Webinars And Resources

SPEAKER_02 8:50

We get a lot of requests and and people asking questions about those because they do want to bring the Silverback Leadership philosophy and program to their departments. And the way that you're going to be able to do that, I think we can expect in the fall some kind of announcement as far as what that live program looks like and the workshops and everything else that we'll be rolling out in in the coming months. So looking forward to all that. Good. Well, let's talk about critical factors at the beginning of the incident and how identifying those critical factors help us shape our incident action plan and some of the things that then go into that and dovetail into that. Uh, you know, we we share and we don't play it here because we don't feel like we want to put people on blast, but we'll we'll hear incidents all the time where there wasn't an obvious identification of the critical fireground factors, and those IAPs or lack of IAPs fall apart very quickly. So we we know that it's a very positive incident outcome when we do identify the critical factors at the beginning of the incident. So who would like to start on that?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Really, it's it's really hard for us to have an incident action plan if we don't uh evaluate critical factors. So kind of running off of what the podcast was last week, you know, standard conditions. So really standard conditions are the critical factors, right? The the evaluation of you know those factors. So, you know, what is the problem? And then not just what is the problem, but what parts, pieces, and components maybe of the building or the response or resource do we have to also help us? So it's not always we're looking at critical factors to solve the problem. And Chris, I'm sure, is going to hit this, but I'll steal something he always says is if everything's critical, nothing's critical. Well, we have we have we call them the critical fire ground factors, eight categories, but really there's probably 10,000 factors, right, to consider based off of if we say if we say building construction, well, there's a gazillion different things. Every day they're coming up with something new with that. And then, you know, fire conditions, you know, there's all kinds of different, you know, fire conditions and flow path that we identify. And then is there life safety? Is there not life safety? There's a whole lot to evaluate. So it comes down to that you have to have that process and that mindset of evaluating, really, I guess, knowing in the beginning, what do I have to work with to solve the problem, which we really should know when we get dispatched, like what what is our resource? And then getting there, what is identifying what is the problem. So I I think this lines up with not to not to be a sales pitch, but it comes to kind of focus with that with that the SDM class, right? The strategic decision-making model class, because that that class, a lot of the focus is on identifying what is the real problem and making sure that you're seeing all parts and pieces of the building and and getting that bigger picture view. So yeah, today we're probably just going to focus mostly on that front end of the critical factors, but we're evaluating critical factors every second that goes by at the incident. And it's not one person's job. Everybody should be evaluating those factors. So we have outside factors and inside factors. So it I think there's a lot to talk about. But before we go too far, Chris, what do you?

After-Action System And Leadership Modules

Why Critical Factors Drive The IAP

Size-Up As A Practiced System

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Well, I I guess my my my thought and where I'd like to start with this is where what professional industry or what professional jobs or you know industrial focus, I guess maybe is is if you're there to fix problems or identify problems and come up with solutions, if you can't simply define the problem and you can't measure the problem and you can't, you know, clearly recognize all the components of the problem, you have a high likelihood that your solution is going to suck. So that we need to actually be reasonably effective, especially as the professionals supposedly of responding to the fire ground is being able to quickly, concisely, efficiently, and consistently be able to size the fire ground up to figure out exactly what's critical right now in the moment in the beginning. And and as Josh said, when you know that that that term when everything's critical and nothing is critical. Well, we can show up a lot of times when we have a lot of bad things happening, right? And it's all this whole litany of, you know, holy shits going on right there in the beginning. Well, it's our job to figure out really which one of those are the most important, and which one of those are the ones we have to deal with, we have to mitigate, we have to avoid, we have to really are gonna drive our ability to actually put some to put some action in place, right? To to deliver a plan to actually start to solve this problem, to start to deal with the life safety issue, to control the fire, all the elements that we we normally do on the front end of these incidents. So if we can't do that in an effective manner, it is highly likely that we're gonna run into problems and we're going to, you know, have that predictable surprise, like, oh gosh, who would have thought this floor would have collapsed after the fire's been burning on the first and second floor for 20 minutes with ineffective water put on it, right? So we we we we struggle with that, but when we look at it from hindsight, we oftentimes go, well, that was fairly predictable that that actually happened. So that's all part of size up, and that's all part of recognizing critical factors. So the the idea of these critical factors is, or the fire critical fire ground factors and being able to distill them down into eight distinct categories, is it helps us define in a more simple way, really, what is important on the front end of the incident. And in order to be able to get there and figure out what the what the true critical factors are, and they're not, I can't think of an instance where all eight of them are critical simultaneously in the same degree, right? So there are definitely things that are going to be more important than others. So in order to get to those, you we have to have a consistent and well-executed, well trained on, easily definable system for size up, right? So in order to be able to show up and actually size up an incident and be able to say this is what's critical, it's not magic. And it we just don't walk, walk by the the the office at Fire Admin, and somebody taps us on the head and say, you're now able to do size up, right? You actually have to practice it. So the system has to know what it is, understand it, define it, and then actually practice it with their people, right? And there's some in my in my experience in in teaching this to you know a wide, pretty decent number of folks inside my organization and now in blue card, right? Is that until we've defined it, until we've written that down on where we should start up with size up and how we should do it, it's all over the place. You know, you can have 50 or 100 people in a class and and you're gonna have 50 or 100 different versions of size up, right? So it really helps as an organization to define how we're going to do size up and then be able to exercise it with our folks because it is a practice skill. And it's also a perishable skill, right? If you're not constantly exercising it, you're likely not to be as good as you once were or you can be with that evaluation process. And so Josh hit on a few things that we we need to do in a consistent manner and size up. First and foremost, what's the problem? Now, I don't mean that in an elementary way that it sounds like you'll train firefighters and they'll go, Well, there's a fire. Well, yeah, no kidding, there's a fire. Thanks. You you guys are geniuses at observation. No, let's dig a little bit deeper into it and say, okay, what's going on with the fire? What's going on with the building? What's going on with the fire, the volume and extent, where where can we forecast this going? And how is it impacting the the potential presence of life, life safety, right? And so we've got to kind of put this all together to help us be able to figure that out. So when we talk about what's the problem, the things we probably should start with are the things that we are gonna need to communicate most quickly in an initial radio report. Now I'm talking about initial size up for the initial officer, right? So if I'm gonna communicate, the first two things I'm gonna communicate in initial radio report are building size, height, and type, and then the fire conditions, fire and smoke conditions, then after that, then I probably should start my size up there in within the context of what's the problem. All right, well, I've got a uh two-story house lightweight constructed with a tile roof, right? And and I've got a working fire on the on the alpha side of this, I've got extension over into the Delta One exposure. And so now I'm really actually starting to define what's going on, and I can start then to evaluate the more finer details about huh, where do I have tenable and searchable space? Where where do I want to get my line and get water going first? Where do I want to get into the building and actually be able to effect uh conducting a primary search, right? So it it primes us for that. The the next question we should ask in a standardized process is what's getting in the way of me achieving the tactical objectives, these conditions or the building or or all these factors, right? What's getting in the way of me achieving an all-clear under control and lost on? Well, in the example I'm talking about, if I show up and I've got maybe the whole front front patio and and and front entryway of the house burning, I've got an extension to the other one. Well, the first thing that's getting in the way of me entering the house is all this fire on the front of the building. I got to start to control that so I have at least the means of access to get inside the building here on the alpha side, right? So starting to think in terms of these barriers or these challenges that I need to deal with in order for me to actually affect the true work that we showed up there to do. And that's fire control, primary search, and loss control, right? So, and then the last question we should probably ask ourselves in from a safety standpoint is is there something that could hurt or kill me right now? Right? Is there something if I don't deal with it or avoid it or mess with it that it could smash me or somehow debilitate me and not be able to do my job, right? Now I become the problem or part of the problem. And so oftentimes we we go past those. I can think of instances in my career where we we ignored a cantilever overhang in a in a in a motel fire up on the second floor, and we went up to deal with the the the two rooms that were that were that were rolling and end up having that cantilever overhang collapse and and and pin firefighters against that front window of the of the structure. That's a problem. That could, when we look back at the video, we're like, oh no, we clearly should have paid attention to that, right? So so we need to start with these kind of three standard questions. They're not magical, but they do directly help us start to better identify not only critical factors, but then then helps us answer our questions about risk management and strategy when once we're getting to our plan. So unless we do it, unless we define a clear standard of where we're going to start and agree to it, whether it's these questions or whatever questions I guess any department's going to come up with. I I would argue that these are pretty pretty solid in where what they do, and then actually exercise it. It took in my career, it took a good solid two years of focus by by the fire department in training to help our members drastically improve their size up capability, right? So it's not an easy thing that we're gonna snap a finger, write a policy or a memo and send it out and bing, everybody's gonna know. No, we've got to actually be able to exercise that and train our folks and in a way too that they're gonna do it for real, right? And so they have to be able to walk and think and evaluate and maybe maybe multitask a little bit as a part of that. And the last thing I'll say is that's not just the officer's function. That this is everybody's function when we arrive, right? So everybody from the nozzleman, the the the plugman or the heelman, the the the driver, operator, engineer, they all need to be paying attention to things. And based on their scope and their responsibility to have that incident, they've got to be sizing it up. And they've got to be asking the same exact questions. Because part of it is I I want to keep I want to keep somebody else from walking into a buzzsaw, right? So if I can pay attention to these and I can stop someone else or or point something out that actually helps direct us better, then we should do that. We're working as a team. So this is a this is not just the officer. This really ends up being everybody on the fire ground, but if for the initial arriver, it's the initial arriving officer and their crew doing this evaluation and size up to get to all right, here's what's critical right now. We're gonna build our plan off of these critical elements.

Standard Language For Fire Conditions

SPEAKER_01 21:59

So, so so one thing to put out in the front end of this before we get too far into it, too, is the we shouldn't try to make a solution fit the problem. We need to understand what solutions we have and what we're capable of doing, and then align those with solving the problem. And, you know, something I always say and have said for 20 years is we don't go to Mrs. Smith's house when she's having chest pains and say you're gonna get shocked because, well, it was chest pain, so that's just what we do. And it's like, no, that's not what we do, right? Well, far too often in the fire service, we we try to take residential solutions that we're very comfortable with, oftentimes, and make it fit something that doesn't necessarily align. So That that's just one thing that that we need to keep in mind. So it starts with, like Chris and I both said now, it starts with what is the problem, not we rolled out the door and we have a solution and we're going to make this solution fit the problem. So that that and we often get jammed up because of that, right? Because we have this mindset of uh I just listened to an incident yesterday. We we're the fire department and we're going there and there's a fire, and the firemen want to go put the fire out, and we all want that, but how they were gonna go about or how they did go about doing that's like, what in the world were you thinking? You you took residential tactics to a commercial fire, and then you wondered why some of the things didn't work the way you wanted them to, and then you had to reset, and somebody finally said, No, and not we're not doing that, that is not gonna work here. In the simplest thing, right? It's like trying to I have a screw and I'm gonna use a hammer to drive it in. It's like, no, that's not, or vice versa. I got a nail and I'm gonna try to use a screwdriver. It's like, no, it it just doesn't fit. So what is the problem? Is what we're that's where we have to start. Like, what is the problem? And then really with critical factors, what things are there to help us too? Like, where what areas not only are are a problem, but what areas aren't a problem? Because we need to understand that because we're not going to work in that area either.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

I'm a big fan of pre-planning and walkthroughs, and if you're fortunate enough to have a first due area that's that that is manageable in. So if you have a first due area or a district that you see new construction going up, that that size up begins now, before the building is on fire. If you could take your crew through that while it's under construction, while the hydrants are being put in, if the fire protection system, if you're fortunate enough to have one, is being installed, to know how that operates, to know the construction features, the occupancy types. I have a proliferation right now in my community of the mixed-use buildings where we we've got residential, the uh floor second through five, but the first floor is 12-foot or 14-foot ceilings, and it's all masonry where businesses are going to be uh coffee shops, restaurants, dry cleaners, banks. What does that look like compared to just a typical what was a traditional apartment fire? And and many times there are two different fire protection systems for those occupancies, too. So just understanding that. So I I always say size up starts now, you know, before the building's on fire, as much as you can do that within your first two and have those discussions around the kitchen table, it really helps out quite a bit. You know, get getting back to the size up, and I think it's important for us to define and just use this as an example of standardized language. What's a working fire? What do we define as a working fire? And and let's talk about how we define that in blue card and why it's important for your department to have standard definitions.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Yeah, so in the blue card system, when we just when we say working fire, we we're identifying that one, we're we're gonna create an attack position and we're gonna stretch a hand line and that there is indeed fire to put out. Different than I pull up and there's maybe you know smoke coming from the front door, and you know, this is an investigation or or report of a fire, and maybe there's nothing showing, right? And I know nothing showing means nothing showing depending on the building and you know the size of it and all of that. But when everybody's on the same page with working fire, sometimes not well, it oftentimes puts other things into place too. Like it sends the rest of the response, you get utilities responding in the county where I work. As soon as somebody says working fire, that's when the that's when we get a dedicated dispatcher on the TAC channel. So there's a list of things that that saying that word working fire. So defining that for everyone.

Ongoing Size-Up: 360 And Interior

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, the important part of the the consistent definitions of all the language, quite honest, that we use on the fire ground is that over the years, a lot of times these terms have meant something different to somebody else or to everybody else, I guess. And so, for instance, in my career coming up in the the system that I came up, the earliest definition I had of a working fire was that you we we had fire conditions, but it was structural in nature and not just contents, right? And so, you know, in my young firefighter brain, I'm like, oh, okay, but I didn't completely understand that. And then I didn't, and and I'm not sure anybody can thoroughly decide when it's at this point, at least in the modern fire environment, can decide when it's just contents and or structural involvement, right? Based on how much, uh, how much and the and the types of fuels that we have in these, the the conditions, right, can be very easily masked between whether the structure, when you can't see where the fire is burning, with the structure, where it's structural or or contents. So for us, taking the definitions of our of all the fire conditions, right? Nothing showing, smoke showing, working fire, and defensive fire conditions. Clearly aligning a definition for all of those, right? And then avoiding these amorphic kind of descriptive terms that mean something different to everybody. We've got fire showing, we've got heavy fire showing, we've got it's fully involved, right? How often is that misused and misrepresented in the system, right? And it's meant to intend we have defensive fire conditions. So, how about if we just say we have defensive fire conditions? And whether it's fully involved or not doesn't necessarily matter, is the conditions are such right now that I from the position I'm viewing this, that this is we are going to be in the defensive strategy. You're going to de employ defensive fire tactics based on that through a defensive incident action plan. So really cleaning up, there's only four things we should be communicating for fire conditions. Nothing showing, smoke showing, working fire, defensive fire conditions. And we should clearly know the definition of each one of those. And as Josh said, a working fire is defined as any fire and smoke conditions in which you are going to deploy a hand line. And then we could be a little bit more descriptive, like we've got fire and smoke showing from this position or these positions on the fire ground that help kind of round out that picture. So the use of that language uh inside of our size up and knowing everybody when they hear a working fire in in the blue card system, they're gonna say, oh, okay, they're deploying a hand line to this location, right? And I now can start thinking about all right, where is it that I'm gonna end up? Where what do I what's based on my arrival and the assignment I get from the IC, where am I likely to go to work? Right. And there they can start forecasting and anticipating. And and in in spite of what the the nayers sayers say, it does not slow the system down of getting people to work. It actually improves the efficiency because they get to the right spot when they get assigned based on the critical factors.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

I I was in a class recently and I younger uh officers, younger ICs coming up, and and I I think it's sometimes important for us to let them know what we were doing before we came up with the system. Because I would be on a fire in the 90s and all of a sudden two other crews would show up to the exact same spot I was already taken care of. I, you know, fires out, rooms are searched, but we would duplicate efforts so much because there wasn't a good identification of the critical factors and the tasks that were going to be necessary to mitigate those. So uh the the duplication of effort became a huge deal for me, especially as staffing was not what it needed to be within my department. You know, we're riding out with two or three person companies a lot of times. So you need to get the staffing to where you need the staffing and identifying those is important rather than duplicating those efforts, because we hear that so much. The other thing that we also hear is the assignment of busy work, you know. I think Josh and I were uh trading some radio traffic earlier in the week that these guys think just because they have a ladder company in staging when all the tasks are now covered, or I've got a rescue company in staging. Now that all the tasks are covered, I gotta sign them to do something. So we start doing things. And I I rode along with a a very large city fire department once where we were breaking into homes that were exposures but not on fire, with families watching TV on the couch, and we're taking halligan bars to the door, and it's like, why are we doing this? Well, it just for something to do. I mean, there the home wasn't under threat, it wasn't gonna jump, there was no wind conditions. You know, maybe we should evacuate those houses, but is there a reason to do a forcible entry to it to an adjacent structure when there's a family inside watching TV on the couch, just wondering what's going on next door? So maybe speak to that one a little bit.

Risk Management Overlaid On Strategy

SPEAKER_01 32:01

So just uh can I back up just for one second? Is you know what you say pulling up on arrival is only what you said when you pulled up on arrival. When you when you do a 360 or you find out more information, what what you've identified might change. You might suppose you might pull up and say nothing showing, investigating, because that's the incident action plan right now, because I don't know that what's going on. My really my incident action plan is I'm investigating because I'm I'm not doing anything else till I find out you know more information, whether I might have to change an attack position or or whatever it is. And then, you know, coming back, oh, I've identified now after 360. I we do have a working fire in the basement, or we have a working fire that's actually on the Charlie side, or we got a working fire on we get so focused in our industry about house fires. And it's like, well, you go to the jury in right now and it's on fire and it's 10 stories and the fire's on the seventh floor. There's a really good chance you're not going to see anything from the outside until you investigate further, right? So that size up in the evaluation of factors isn't only outside, it's inside and it's ongoing over and over and over again. So I bring that up because we get that from people oftentimes sending us in questions like, Well, I didn't identify this and say this because when I pulled up, I didn't see anything. So what do I really do? And, you know, an answer is, well, you're there's nothing showing you're investigating, right? And then that also tells everybody kind of slow down because you get dispatched to a fire, and people are acting like, oh, we're going to a fire, which we want them to, but we don't know what the problem is to even start to put a solution into place yet. So, and then to back up one step further before we get too far away from it is John, you talked about pre-plans, but the the role of dispatch and critical factors too. So, some examples of of basic things, right? Like the dispatcher, it was communicated from the homeowner that the fire was in the basement or in the laundry room. So that that's important that we hear that, right? Because that that's gonna help formulate our plan as well. We have a we have a fire in the laundry room in the basement. Well, we're gonna we're gonna confirm that and identify that and communicate that, but that is very helpful information from that tactical radio operator to pass on to us of what is actually going on, or and very specific stuff that they help us and tell us too of we're on the phone with an occupant, or we were on the phone with an occupant, or we're on the phone with an occupant that's outside that's reporting that somebody still is inside and that they're you know wherever they are. Well, if there's somebody outside, we can oftentimes get really good information from them as well about you know, fire location or victims. On the flip of that, we we do need to be careful a little bit and make and make sure that we're training dispatchers of a commercial building fire in the kitchen is way different than a commercial than a residential fire in the kitchen, right? So, you know, just recently working with a fire department gets dispatched to call a reports fire in the kitchen, but it's in a commercial, it's in a commercial building in a restaurant, and dispatch goes down the path of appliance fire, even though they said kitchen fire, but they went down the path of appliance fire, so they send a reduced response to that only to find out that the whole kitchen is burning and it's already into the attic, right? So until you see it for yourself, you know, you can't necessarily rely on it. However, that that that information that dispatch can give us is helpful. And when we get them on the same page with us, it becomes even that much more helpful. When when they understand our terms and what we're really looking for, they can help us a whole lot.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

We put out an article this week on bShipper.com start with why. And I and I think starting with why with your dispatch center really helps them out. We get very frustrated with dispatchers sometimes. And I understand there's a lot of law enforcement-centric dispatch centers that either don't have the time or capacity to train and really talk to us about what we do, but many of them do. And if you could sit down with them and tell them why we need this information or why, when it gets upgraded from an appliance fire to an actual structure fire, why that information needs to come across. And I know overseeing a dispatch center, as we did for a number of years, uh, that dispatch nine agencies, some of that information would come in. And when it didn't get passed along, we had to have a talk about that and let them know why it is so critical that information gets passed on. So yeah, dispatch is, and if you're fortunate enough to have a dispatch center that will work with you, you're you're you're doing well and get them in the loop. And there's a lot of ways to do that, Chris?

Resources, Capability, And Tactics

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah, uh, so the pre-planned stuff that you mentioned, JV, you are starting as early as you possibly can identifying fixed factors, right? The things about the building that are very, very important so that when we show up, we've got a pretty good baseline of the fixed factors of this building. Now we're looking at these variable factors of the fire, the life safety, maybe some of the actions or the resources that we're going to need to actually do the work. And that really kind of helps us be more specific and more pointed in our identification of the critical factors so that our plan is that much better. So I really like that idea. And then, and then as Josh said, this is a continuing process, right? So I'm doing all this initial evaluation, I'm doing this initial communication, and now I'm going to work as a company officer as the first arriver, and then I'm going to assign other people to actually uh you know further my incident action plan based on the based on the critical factors, right? And now I can evaluate the interior conditions. But even before that, I need to do a 360 when I absolutely can, right? That's the continuation. That's the second step in that evaluation and becoming a little bit more complete with my evaluation. And and and as the Las Vegas guys say, well, I'm going to challenge or validate my initial size up in my 360. And I want to be looking for a whole bunch of stuff continuing it there. I'm looking at the the the fire volume extent. I'm looking at the ventilation profile. I'm looking at the the the searchable or tenable space on the inside of this and and figuring out, wow, is there something I can do better here with my plan with regards to putting maybe maybe how people are entering the building or my ability to control the fire or where I need to get crews to to to complete searches because they're they're in the most endangered spaces? Then I should do that, right? And so that that that 360 is a continuation and a reevaluation of my initial critical factors. And I need to be very clear about what that size up, that continued size up is doing is how is it changing? If it is changing my initial critical factors, then does that drive a change to my plan andor strategy at all? So there the step of initial size up, more complete size up with a 360, now interior size up when it's right to move to the inside of the building. Then now IC number one typically has the absolute best view of the overall incident and and its critical factors. And they need to be clear in communicating that information the best they can to IC number two in that command transfer. And so IC number one is the is the most difficult job typically on the fire ground at all, uh or at uh you know, overall on that arrival when they are in uh the mobile IC and they're operating at the strategic, tactical, and task level simultaneously. And so we need to train to become good at it. And I have seen some exceptional company officers who have put the time in, and the system has helped them with that, become really good at all that front uh front end stuff. And their firefighters have learned how to operate in that and they become highly effective. And so this idea that, oh, that's just too much talking, or that's too much. We're asking the firefighters to think too much at the beginning of this. I think that's all complete rubbish. And it's about expectations, it's about having clear standards and actually training to it. They will meet that bar. They have. There are there are tons of departments across the country that are meeting that bar right now. So, but we have to know and be very deliberate about getting them there. It's not done magically and it's not done because we we we we you know pick these amazing people. Well, well, we do pick pretty amazing people, but we have to actually train them.

Leaders Prevent Bad Outcomes

SPEAKER_02 40:37

When you talk about at that beginning, when we're identifying the critical factors, Chris, and I've seen this with the uh strategic decision-making class, and and you brought it up here earlier, you're looking at you know what's going to get in the way of us fixing the problem, and then what's gonna hurt and kill us. So we're we're really dovetailing the risk management plan very, very closely. I mean, it these aren't separate boxes, these are kind of boxes that that overlay on each other. Is that the right way to think about that?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, I think it's a hundred percent the right way. So, first of all, you we can't be effective at risk management, you know, identifying risk benefit and and identifying, you know, tolerable or acceptable risk if we don't understand the critical factors, right? If we don't under, if we haven't effectively sized it up, measured the problem, and then identify what really are the issues here or the threats right here. And so in order to be able to do that, we identify that stuff and then we say, okay, we are going to evaluate this very quickly through a risk management process. And that risk management process is tied directly to sable lives or savable property or identifying things that are already lost. Things that I can't fix, I can't unburn, I can't resurrect, I can't, you know, I can't do any of those things. So, you know, we'll read and see in NIOSH reports or significant uh incident reports of well, they really needed to do risk management better. Well, unless you have risk management in your system, sandwich between size up and critical factors and strategy, every single time, you're likely not to do it effectively at all ever. Because if it's this secondary system and the secondary thought about what it is we're gonna do and how much risk we're willing to take, then then literally you will bypass it because you're too busy doing the other things. You have to integrate it again into a system and process, and you have to train on it. And it's not as if we're writing a research paper around risk assessment every time we go to a fire. No, we're quickly saying, all right, these are the critical factors. I life safety is a critical factor for me on this incident based on those factors. So I'm in the green of my risk management plan. I'm willing to tolerate a significant level of risk here, and then we're likely going to be working in the offensive strategy. So here's my plan. And when you do it that way, we tend to be way better at it. And risk management is the why. Why are we doing what we're doing right now on the fire ground? It's either about sable lives or saveable property. And and to the degree we're doing work is all right, how much risk are we taking in that, or how much risk are we tolerating in doing that work? So it has to be a critical standard part of the system and process in order to be effective. Otherwise, you're we're gonna find the we're gonna continue with the same findings that we find now is it was ineffective risk assessment. Well, that's because risk assessment wasn't even done. It was an afterthought. It was, oh, we're gonna let the safety officer do the risk assessment. Well, no, they're not even connected to the overall incident management of the of the scene. So that that that system just doesn't work. And it is not overcomplicated for initial arriving officers, it's not overcomplicated for IC number two. It's it's it's in a good place. And again, if you know it and understand it, you exercise it, you can do it really simply. And it's completely over critical factors are overlaying uh risk management, and risk critical factors and risk management are overlaying strategy. They all work together to figure out to be in the right strategy.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Chris, in the class, going back to the strategic decision making class, there's a drill that you do with it where you show a number of structures with various degrees of involvement. How important is that drill for the company, for the department, for them to understand the tolerable risks and really identifying what those fire critics? Critical factors are in involvement and structure and everything else. So, how how how do we train people in that? And beyond the initial blue card certification, what are some tools that we have so people can continue to look at structures and various degrees of involvement and what their incident action plan would be?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

So there's a lot of things kind of happening simultaneously. That's one of the reasons why we have to kind of practice and process how we do this. But that quick evaluation of the building itself, the fire ground factors, the the life safety potential in this, you know, the tenable and searchable spaces really become a significant part of that. And when you put those all together, saying, okay, how am I going to execute, or what's the best way for me to execute this? And and then, but in between that, we have to ask, all right, is that acceptable or tolerable? Can we do that and survive? Or are we like, are we gonna we throw in an if we try this, if we're successful, there's gonna be a significant uh piece of luck involved, right, in us being successful. That's not good for uh consistency and resiliency and firefighter safety. That's that just simply is not. So I'm looking at all these things kind of simultaneously, driving towards, all right, what's the best thing I can do in the very beginning to improve or to meet these tactical objectives of get getting an all clear and controlling the fire? Oftentimes it has everything to do with my ability to control that fire. And if I slow and stop and reduce that the fire's impact on the building, the fire's impact on the victims, the fire's impact on the firefighters, then I'm in a better place to actually act and more safely, more reasonably, and maybe more effectively for saving people or the things that I'm supposed to be saving. So I'm constantly measuring that and I'm constantly evaluating that on the front end, and I'm balancing that against a couple things. I'm balancing that against, all right, how many what resources did I show up with? How many people did I show up with? Do I have a two-person engine or do I have a five-person engine, right? Because those are very different tactic potential and capacity if I did that. And then who's coming after that? And and and how are they resourced as well, right? Because I can get four more engines, but if I only get like seven more people, that's not a great uh I can't build, I can't make a fake plan off of the army I want. I have to fight the battle with the army I've got. And so part of all of that goes into the evaluation, and I'm also then looking at how quickly do I need to react? And is is dealing with the fire the most important thing very in the very beginning, or is dealing with the victims? I will absolutely argue there is a time and place where you got to deal with the victim first, right? What when they're when they're you know, when they're hanging out windows, when they're on balconies with with fire licking over their head, or they're laying in the entryway or the the approach into the house. You absolutely have to deal with those. But you have to recognize that the longer you take to do that and and you're not dealing with the fire or changing the fire conditions, they are getting worse. And likely the science shows they're getting exponentially worse. So that can put us behind the eight ball. And so when we re-engage with the fire, we we we can't re-engage the same way that we did when, you know, based on the what the what how much fire there was when we showed up. We got to re-engage it with how much their fire there is now, right? And from what positions and how much, and and what's it gonna take to actually deal with it, or say with, hey man, I'm just happy we made that rescue. I don't know that I can do anything else about this. We're gonna try, but we may not win. So there's man, there's this ongoing, it's almost a competition of very these variable factors that are pushing us, and we've got to be able to process them and make the best decision we can on the front end based on the conditions, based on the resources, and based on the capabilities that we have to be able to manage it.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

I think we I think we touched like one one thousandth of it.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's a lot more to it. I mean, certainly. So hopefully this podcast gets people just thinking about it. You you have this the talk in the training room, uh, have the talk with your crews and you know, continue a strategic decision-making workshop because then we'll do it for 16 hours. Yeah, and and that's a great workshop, it really is. So we suggest that you you do that because it it really helps frame everything that we're talking about here just in 45 minutes today.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Are you guys ready? Yeah, you know, uh just went across my mind from like a year or two ago when the last time I think Vincent Dunn was on the podcast, and he said, just remember, you can only do the work you can do with the people that you have to do the work. And you know, he was he he when he first said it, it was almost like how many people do you have? But more importantly, it comes down to what is their real capability. So, how many people do you have, and then what is their real capability?

SPEAKER_02 49:58

So, all right, you guys ready for a timeless tactical truth?

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Absolutely. All right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Today, what we're going to uh take out of the book, Timeless Tactical Truths. So you can see mine's been well used. Managers cause good things to happen, leaders stop bad things from happening. Managers cause good things to happen, leaders stop bad things from happening. You know, we can systematize. I don't know if that's a word. We can we can put systems into place and train people, but leaders on the fire ground stand up. Leaders on the fire ground are the ones that say, no, we can't go in there anymore. They're the chief macamis of the world who I'm always referencing, standing in front of the doorway saying, I know we've already lost six, we're not gonna send anybody else in there. What's your take on leaders versus managers?

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Chris, fire away. I see that smoke rolling.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

So to me, it's about leadership is about forecasting. Leadership is looking at the greater picture. Yeah, they're gonna be setting folks up for success right in the moment and and through through whatever means. And whether we're talking about organizational success or we're talking about, you know, operational fire ground success, they're looking at the bigger picture. They're forecasting potentials and they're forecasting the potential of what can we do and what shouldn't we be doing, right? And that forecast of you know what we shouldn't be doing, that's exactly what you know what he's talking about here. We're gonna keep them from doing bad things or or things that are gonna get them in trouble. Or in Bruno's words is we're gonna we're gonna not get involved in situations where we have to rescue ourselves, right? And so that prevention then puts us in a probably in a better lane and better view perspective to actually do highly effective things. And that that manager role, yeah, they're probably looking at the moment. They're probably looking at those individual. I want to get a win right now. I wanna I want them to love me. So we're gonna, we're gonna make them, you know, feel good by by by you know creating this opportunity right now. But it may not have long-term success. It may be it just it may be you know something sweet right now, but it goes away very quickly. Where we look at long-term success, health, and wellness of the membership and the firefighters, both inside the job and on the fire ground, that those things aren't always easy. They don't always taste sweet. And however, once people get to the end, whether it's the end of the incident or the end of their career, they're often thankful, right? Of, oh, okay, I'm glad we did it that way. And and all right, we had the best possible outcome because of these reasons. And it's a lot like being a parent, right? You're yeah, this is gonna suck for a little while being a parent, but you hope like I have now with 23 and a 21-year-old uh children that wow, I actually like you guys as adults. I want to hang out with you as adults now. This is cool. This this uncomfortableness or these these rigid rules and standards, you know, that we had throughout life are are actually paying off where you and you've embraced it fairly well. Well, the training and managing and leading firefighters is very, very similar to that inside of an organization. So that's what I think of when I when I hear that that quote.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Yeah, I don't really have anything to add to that. Just just a something as a little little advertisement for an upcoming podcast that kind of aligns with this. Is in the near future, we're gonna be putting out a podcast of a of a very large commercial processing plant fire. Went for like three or four alarms. Significant fire, people trapped, multiple victims burned, were removed from the building, hazmat incident. It'll be it'll be a great topic because another sprinkler building, but uh 70% of it or so saved, and they lost 30% of it. But the incident commander is very familiar with the system, trained, educated, and did a really nice job in a leadership role. Of there was still a report of somebody trapped inside the building, even though in the center of the building there was flames shooting through the roof already on arrival due to the incident that caused the fire, but there was a report of people trapped, so they were gonna give it a shot to go to a known location where they were told or believed this person was. And the company on the inside reported out hey, this is gonna be like 300 feet past the threshold under the IDLH. And the incident commander told them you can you can cross that threshold with that line, however, do not get off the hand line. And it was it was just a good step of like where you're not gonna get off the hand line to go search this building and expose you know yourself. And it was it was really a the incident manager manager made some good decisions and some good calls that are sometimes you know people say that they're hard, but like was said earlier, the the the people will be thankful, the firemen will be thankful on the other side of like thank you for giving us that information and and giving us that guidance and direction because sometimes when you're on that hand line, they're just gonna go, right? Like, what's five more feet? What's 10 more feet? So uh just a good example of leadership. And we're gonna have that podcast coming up with Chief Lake Camp. We'll probably do actually end up doing a couple podcasts on that incident because there's I think so much to talk about with it.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

So Josh and Chris, thank you for being here today. I think we covered uh uh just a fraction of of what this topic, as we often say we do, you know. So keep studying, keep looking into it, everybody. We'll be here every week and and reach out to those resources, bShifter.com. If you're looking for articles, podcasts, information, we've got it here for you. Go to your blue card training, or reach out to any one of us, and and we would be happy to point you in the right direction. Thanks, gentlemen, for being here today, and thanks everyone for listening to the Beat Shifter Podcast, and then the first one.