Blue Card Updates Plus Incident Audio From Harrison, Ohio

We talk through mid-year Blue Card updates, why command training is worth paying for, and how regional leaders keep a shared system alive even when departments change chiefs. We also dig into big box fire realities and then break down working-fire radio audio that shows what clear size-up, assignments, and command transfer sound like.
• Blue Card as a decision-making and incident organization system rather than a tactics class
• Common myths about Blue Card and how bad information spreads
• The real cost of training and why “free” is not a plan
• Liability exposure tied to weak command training and predictable failure points
• Sustaining a command program through leadership commitment and ongoing verification
• ARFF program growth, upcoming train-the-trainer dates, and open seats
• A regional collaboration model from the Seacoast Chiefs and why standard language matters
• Big box and mega warehouse fires, sprinkler limits, FDC considerations, and defensive discipline
• Working-fire audio breakdown: initial radio report, 360, patient handling, CAN reports, and command transfer
• Timeless tactical truth on forecasting and doing now what saves time later

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Check out the Big Box Bulletin here: https://conta.cc/3QpvT8u

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For Waldorf University Blue Card credit and discounts:
https://www.waldorf.edu/blue-card/

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Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

Welcome And Summer Scheduling

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Beat Shifter Podcast. John Vance and Josh Blue here with me today. We're uh in the middle part of June with this one, so we're gonna bring you some uh information on what's going on with Blue Card, talk about some current events, and we also have some audio for you today that we're gonna play from a uh fire with a couple of victims. So uh we'll get to that here in a little bit, but first let's check in with Josh. How are you doing, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I'm doing great, enjoying the summer, just uh getting the year rounded out, getting some classes booked up. We do still we got some availability through the rest of the year, but if you were if you were wanting to do something yet in 2026, reach out to me sooner than later so we could get it you know on the books because we're we're working on 2027 dates and have tons of requests already for classes. So that's all good. And then we're we're headed to in about a month, I guess we're headed to iChiefs in Kansas City. So we'll be there for the show all those days. We're gonna be in the I think they call it the tech technology area, I believe it's tech zone. Tech Tech Zone, yeah. So yeah, so looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Otherwise, all good. Well, and we invite folks to come by if you're in Kansas City, come by and see us and learn about Blue Card. If you if you're not a regular user, I know most people that listen to the podcast uh believe in blue card in one way or the other. So,

Blue Card Myths And What It Is

SPEAKER_01 1:36

but if if you have somebody who's uh one of those difficult folks who you know really don't believe I'm putting water on the fire, which every day I look at social media team tends to be a more and more. I I saw some stuff from my hometown today that I I just couldn't believe, which I won't go into because I won't give it any credence here. But there's a lot of theoretical practices going on out there right now, but but we're steadfast that we believe water is a good thing on fire. So any of that stuff, any of the blue card myths, that's the other thing is bad information. Every class that we do, there's somebody coming up with more and more myths. Oh, I thought it was this, or I thought it was that, or I thought you were going to dictate my tactics. And that we start off every train the trainer class saying, really, blue card is not a tactics class, it gives you a platform to talk about your local tactics so you can sit down with your folks after you do a simulation. But this is a command training program where we we teach you decision making and how to organize an incident, particularly a type four and five incident. So that's really what it's all about. But people like to twist things into their own narrative, and we see that a lot. And and that's just the world today. Uh

Why Command Training Costs Money

SPEAKER_01 2:51

it's kind of interesting because Nick's article this week in the B Shifter buck slip. You can go to b shifter.com and read that now if you'd like, is just talking about the cost of training and how you know people really complain about paying anything for fire training. Like fire training should just be free for everyone. Whereas, and and and you know, and I and I think about it, it's like, well, is is there anybody out there listening right now, other than if you're at a small volunteer fire department where you don't get any compensation, is just gonna go in and train for free? You're not gonna you're you're not gonna get paid while they train. Would you do that? You know, training costs money, it uh costs money to send people, materials, development, all of that. But but we get a lot of pushback from folks who are like, why should I invest in incident commanders? Why should I spend money on this because it's something my department's done now for a hundred years and and we we've been doing it okay. And and Nick makes a great point talking about EMS training and how much money is actually put into EMS training versus fire training.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah, for sure. There's there's no question about that. And and it's it's a hundredfold plus what's committed to EMS training, right? And and compared to really most of all the other training that we do. I mean, really, we could even but next to next to EMS training, it seems like TRT training is the next thing that's like a you know, people spend a ton of money on. And then just recently I saw a local flyer here for a fire officer one class, $1,050. And it's like I'm sure it's probably good training and there's some takeaways, but it it's not you're not leaving there with a system, you're leaving there with some, you know, additional institutional knowledge, but not really a system that you can probably do much of anything with. But just it's just a another example of where where are we gonna commit our where are we gonna commit our training dollars to as as an organization?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

And we're seeing more often that not putting resources into either command training or any kind of basic fire training is leaving fire departments open to so much liability because some of these lawsuit judgments can be directly tied back to the NIOSH top five and correlated to command and and and the lack of command training. And you know, we we were just up in southwest Michigan, and they're trying to regionalize an area, they're doing a great job in that southwest Michigan Lakeshore area, Benton Harbor leading the charge there. But there are smaller departments saying, you know what, we only go to a couple fires a year. Why do we really need to train on this? Well, that's probably even more reason to train on it because the public isn't expecting to give you a free pass just because you show up to a fire a couple of times a year. They expect you to have the same professionalism and and the same skill set as the the neighbor down the street that might be going to a fire a week. But people just have these issues, I guess, with with training. You know, and and and we're seeing it here in the state, we're having some local conversations right now because uh the training commitments that paid on call departments have to have, and there's they're citing that as one of the reasons paid-on-call departments are failing. What I hope we don't get to is minimizing training and getting to a point where we're like some states that have a higher line of duty death because it's all up to the authority having jurisdiction to say whether you're a firefighter or not. And there's a reason why we have standards, including a command standard, and and the command standard is blue card. You can get certified in it, you can get continuing education in it, and and you get verified that you still have those skills, and and it's not one and done. You can't, you know, people go to TEAKES and and again, it's not blowing any of those kind of programs up. You go to TEAKS, that's a wonderful program. You can't go there every year. But what we've tried to do with Blue Card or we, you know, other great systems that are uh that you can deliver locally is it's a sustainable ongoing program. But people get it going and then they let it go, or then they get a new fire chief. You know, we've dealt with new fire chiefs before that they want their command system, they see some kind of opportunity in that, and then they drop blue card, then the next new chief comes in and he brings blue card back, which which is really a lot of work too. So, yeah, that that's why we always say it's if you're gonna start a program, make sure you're gonna sustain the program. But you should check out uh Nick's article at b shifter.com. It's it's it's a good one talking about all

Ladder 11 Story And Store Gear

SPEAKER_01 7:37

that. Hey, by the way, speaking of Nick, I've got my let's see here, my lad if if you're watching on YouTube, my ladder 11 shirt. So we've got the ladder 11 shirt now available at the V Shifter store. If you don't know the story of Ladder 11, we're gonna post it soon. We're working on an updated version of the uh ladder 11 story, but it's where uh Nick and and his brother was assigned there too in in Phoenix, and it's not in the best of neighborhoods, backs up right to Sheriff Joe's uh former tent city where he used to keep the prisoners and uh Popper's graveyard and all the all the trappings of an interurban area, and and the guys had a lot of fun there, and and the the raging queen is what they name their ladder truck. So, this t-shirt's an ode to that in those days. So you can grab that at the B shifter store if you're looking to have a little fun with some of your fire apparel. I posted it and some people started making comments again on the ladder truck. Oh, uh blue cards talking about ladder work, you know, like like that should never come out of our mouths. And I just I get it, I it's funny, it's it's funny stuff. So if you follow the story, you'd you'd love the ladder 11 shirt.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I think Chris spent some time there too, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah, he roved in. I think he actually filled in for for John, Nick's brother, as a captain for a while when when he was off injured, so and extended period of time. So yeah, yeah, Chris is used to it. Yeah, one of Nick's stories, and it's in the B shifter book, just talks about you know, the resource people came in and they removed the dishwasher one day because the dishwasher was broken. And when they removed the dishwasher, there was a nest of coral snakes living underneath it in in the kitchen in the firehouse. So if you think you have a mouse or rat problem, it would really suck to have a snake problem. I would not be happy with that. Nah, yeah. Hey,

ARFF Program Growth And Open Seats

SPEAKER_01 9:29

I I see uh we are going to be going to the Port Authority in New Jersey. That's a real big deal with the ARF program. Speaking of Chris, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

So the the ARF group, Chris, John Muir, Glazer, and JT have been doing a really nice job with that ARF program. It's been, I don't know, what launched a couple what, 18 months ago or two years ago, and I think we're I think we're up to like 45, close to 45 airports, I think. Just a few weeks ago, they were at that joint base San Antonio and put a bunch of their folks through the ARF program. And then we've done a couple of other trainers put folks through the trainer, and then this New York, New Jersey Port Authority, and I think they they I think they provide the service, ARF service to three or four, I think four airports there in New York, New York and New Jersey. So between the four of them, I think it's probably the busiest airspace. I don't know, maybe, maybe outside of Atlanta or something. I don't know, but it's it's it's a it's a very busy airspace. So they're they're headed there in August for a three-day ARF train the trainer program with that group. We're excited, looking forward to that. I'm sure they're gonna have a lot of input from you know their recent incident that that that they had and you know what uh what our group you know shares and then what our group picks up and learns from from those folks. So that's really good. And then they're just a couple weeks after that, they're in Phoenix for an ARF trainer, and there's some seats available in that, and the New York New Jersey Port Authority class. Both of them are posted on the B Shifter website. There's some seats they they agreed and opened that up to some outside folks if anybody wanted to go to that class. It's actually going to be at Newark, I think, just for access purposes and their facility accommodated better there, I guess. But either way, the two ARF trainers in August, there's some seats available. I think we got Miami Dade guys in the August class in Phoenix, and then I think the other five people that are in there from five different airports all over the country. I think one guy may be from Canada, and then our partners in Canada have several classes posted as well that you can find on the B Shifter website. If you're listening to this and you're in Canada, interesting maybe to attend it based off of the RF survey that's that's going around of limitations and capabilities in Canada that that that that whole program, you know, them them taking a look at themselves where where they do good and where can they improve.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

So so there are seats available for the general public, and or you know, not the general public, but but our our folks in New York, New Jersey at the Port Authority. Okay, good. That's August 4th, 5th, and 6th in at the at the Port Authority. Wow, that's cool. That's really neat. Speaking

Seacoast Chiefs Model For Regional Command

SPEAKER_01 12:26

of that area, I I got back from the uh New England area. We were up in Portsmouth, uh, New Hampshire, doing a train the trainer. Just a wonderful area. I mean, you want to talk about history and buildings that were that that town was established in 1623. So that you know, it's one of those towns that had had several major fires during its especially early years, but they you know, even recently, old heavy timber construction or the combination construction that we read so much in the uh book construction books when we were coming into the fire service. And I'm looking around construction, it's like this is actually what they were talking about that heavy timber and masonry combination with like field stones and cobblestones and you know, old footers with mortar. And I just I love looking at that kind of construction. There was a house that was built in 1660 that I got to peek my head inside and had those old heavy timber, like handcrafted beams that you could just tell they they shaved down by hand and and got them up into place, and so you know that certainly presents some issues to the the folks there, but in addition to being a beautiful community and full of history, just great folks there. I always expect every time that I go to New England, it's gonna be like dealing with a bunch of Gary Fleischers who we we love, Gary, but I just think I'm gonna get my chops busted the entire time because of the way I talk. But they were they were cool, they were really nice to hang out with, good firefighters, they care about their community, and we had a really, really good time there in New England and doing that train the trainer with those folks. So just want to thank them.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

And John, let's talk about that that that region a little bit. Like, you know, uh you were there for a week and we've done some we've done some other work with that group. It's called, I think it's called the Seacoast Chiefs, right? And I think it goes from I think it goes up into Maine all the way down into Massachusetts, and I don't remember how many departments that they said are are part of that, but it's kind of like a Mabus maybe response district, is what I would kind of compare it to in the in the Midwest. But uh I think they're doing a lot of great work. So can you can you just talk about that and like their just their collaboration and how they're working together, and it's not just one fire department, and they all work together, so they run they're all run together, so they're trying to work together.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

And well, one of the things that was really striking, and and it's and it's a reminder to us when we do these train the trainers, and you and I have seen it happen over the last almost 20 years, is when uh the fire chiefs come in and say, This is what we're doing, and that's what happened day one. Is we were fortunate enough to have our our lead instructor, Gary Fleischer from Woostuck, came over and talked for a little bit, and then we had the fire chief of Portsmouth and and Scott Kerrigan, chief, yeah. Chief Chief Kerrigan came in. The the assistant chief of training was there. I saw you had the chief standing up, yeah. Chief Kerrigan from Salisbury, and they got up and said, This is what we're doing, you know. This is the you know what the the the chiefs have agreed, we're all going to this. There are a ton of small departments there. I didn't realize in like in New Hampshire, I think one of the bigger fire departments is like a 10-station fire department, so that they don't have like big metro fire departments, they have a lot of small communities with two, three, one station, and they all have to work with each other in order to be effective at fighting fire. So, what puts them on a better footing than having the same language and same decision-making model and same command system when they're working together? So they they got up and and the the chiefs really lit their support to that, and that's part of that Seacoast Chief Officers Association, and that group is so big that they they have uh they got their grant to do the blue card training, they own CTCs in a box, they have a ton of assets that they have, including like hazmat rigs and technical rescue rigs, and I believe some command vehicles and and stuff like that. So they they have a really great collaboration with each other and some great leadership there too. And that's really what it takes, is the Chiefs getting together, putting aside any kind of nitpicky differences. And you know, they say there's some holdouts, there is always going to be a holdout or two, but for the most part, they're all working together because they all understand they're gonna be on each other's incident, and then it really goes from these old densely packed, small cities like like a Portsmouth, where you got no fire separation at all, to rural areas where they're tankering water and and you know might be more of like a farm rural setting. So they're working with everybody, and and that that chiefs group is really bringing them together and doing a great job at collaborating and getting the departments on the same page. But I just can't say enough about their leadership and having the chief. If you want a successful blue card program or any kind of program, whatever it is that you're gonna do, if you're not if you're gonna have a spotter program, if you're gonna say, Hey, we're gonna have a spotter back our apparatus from now, and the chief needs to be the one to stand up and say, This is what we're doing, you know. I uh uh the buck stops with me, and then if you don't do it, we're gonna have a talk. And and that's the same thing with blue card. So that it was really good to have their leadership there. And I I think that's a great model for how regions should operate, especially you know, no one operates in a silo anymore. You you can't be a standalone fire department. And and we saw one of our other partners this week, they got rid of their ladder truck because people on either side of them had ladder trucks, to a fire station a mile away, and a fire station a mile and a half away have a ladder truck. Why does why do we need a ladder truck in every jurisdiction? Well, going back to that was because everyone used to operate by themselves. We didn't really call mutual aid or auto aid. Uh, we realized that best practice is really to do that. So we're delivering enough people on the scene in a in a quick, timely fashion. So they're saying, you know, you guys keep your ladder truck, we're gonna do something, I you know, they're gonna bring something else to the table. And it's that give and take and and real true mutual aid is is that handshake saying, we're gonna provide this, you provide that, and and everyone's going to benefit from it because they're going to get better service. And we see that going on there with the Seacoast Chiefs. So really nice job with them.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

John, I wanted to talk a little bit about on that on this same topic, really. I just want to talk a little bit about the the effort and work that goes into the collaboration for that. And then in contrast to what does it look like for an organization like, you know, Cobb County? What's it look like for an organization like Las Vegas Fire Department, or or any of those departments that are in the I'll just say, we'll just say the mid-range of fire stations, standalone, or or or you know, even you know, the the the largest of fire departments in the country, you know, adopting and and using, you know, a single system. And I bring that up because we hear, you know, early on we would hear all blue cards for big fire departments only. And you know, now it's funny we're hearing, and I just laugh out loud when I see it because it's it's people who work in suburbia and they're like, oh, blue cars just twisting the arm and making suburban chiefs that don't know what they're doing do the system because they're they don't know anything else, that's what they're gonna do. And it's like, well, we have everything from one station fire departments, a hundred station fire departments. So it it really does fit any any organizations responding to emergency incidents, right? Any any but any organization that responds to all hazards incidents, the command system is the command system, and that that's the key part of it, I think, is the system component piece. So, you know, it looks different. If you're in suburbia, it looks different here in my world in Hamilton County. You know, you you you to get eight chiefs, you're gonna get or four chiefs with support officers, you're gonna get eight chiefs to fill that out. Whereas, you know, if I'm in Cobb County, I'm getting four chiefs with drivers, or I'll just go all the way across the country and the the Rancho Santa Fe group, that north zone, I think is what they call it. We've already we did a trainer just a few months ago there with and they added 16 instructors. We're going back in October, they're adding 16 more. And they're every time we're every time we're with those guys, it they're like, it just keeps growing more and more because anybody who touches the next fire department that touches that group becomes almost like part of the response system because everybody has to work together to provide the service. And you know, we talk about that when we talk about division ops a bit because people are like, Oh, we don't have the resources for that. And it's like, well, if you draw a box as big as if you draw a box as big as the city of Phoenix around your jurisdiction, I guarantee you that you can get enough response chiefs. You I guarantee you probably get more response chiefs than than even the Phoenix Fire Department has, you know, staffed daily. So I I just bring that up because the whole the whole collaboration thing is important, and then what the system does to bring those people together. And John, you worked in a couple different places now where Blue Card has helped to make that response, you know, come together. And and yeah, there are 10 different names on the fire department trucks, but when the bell rings, everybody operates in one system.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, and even if it's not that way today, that could be the goal, and that's where you get to because we start talking about chiefs and division roles, especially in having command teams and command support. And I'll hear either we only get one chief or we get no chiefs. I I was in an area in mid Michigan where just the culture within the county is there's one or two chiefs of department that'll actually go to calls, they don't have battalion chiefs, but at one department, and they typically don't get chiefs, so so the captains have to be the IC. And my advice is don't Goal should be you're going to get cheaps there. Eventually, you can do that once you drop your borders and you start working together. And once you see the power of it, once you see the efficiency of it, once you see how having that team makes the role of command that much better, having the team really uh accomplishes a lot more. So that could be a goal, and it might take a while to get there. The Minnetonka Fire Department used to be very siloed. It was a five-station fire department, no mutual aid, and they'd get one chief. Now it's not unusual to have seven chiefs on a run because that's just the way that we got to. And working with all of our partners to provide the best service possible. So that can be a goal. Just because it's this way today doesn't mean it needs to be that way tomorrow. And if you have that as a goal and you keep pushing, you're you're going to be able to get there eventually through that collaboration. Oh,

Big Box Fires And Sprinkler Reality

SPEAKER_01 22:50

this week we put out the big box bulletin on Monday. If people did not see that when we put it out, we put it out to the buck slip list. There will be a link in the show notes so you can access that. But we we have some big stuff going on with big box right now. Uh let's talk about that fire in Tracy last week, Tracy, California. As a matter of fact, when I sent the bulletin out yesterday, which was Monday of this week, uh, that fire was still smoldering and there was still a health alert for the community because of the smoke. The smoke was so nasty. It was a medical supply facility, and although pharmaceuticals and whatever else happened to be in the facility, a lot of plastics and stuff uh polluting the air, causing people to get nauseous and sick, and it just the fire just burned forever. There's video of it that's just amazing. It's yet another, you know, sprinklered big box that we see that had a fire like this, and and luckily they recognized that they weren't going to get anywhere by being inside. And I either they they call it defensive pretty early or or right away. I mean, they they I I think they they discovered that they weren't going to be able to get ahead of this, and they certainly didn't apply residential tactics in there after a while. So so that just one of the examples. I don't know if you have anything on Tracy that you saw that uh, but that's one of the reasons we put that bulletin out.

unknown 24:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

So I mean, I I think that the takeaway at this point, until you know, everybody has more information, because we do not jump to conclusions in and you know, at Blue Card or in our group, like let's hear, let's hear the findings and the data or and the takeaways from it from the folks that are investigating it. Kind of like the kind of like the coming up the two free trainings that an FSA and FSA are doing on the mega warehouse fire there in Indianapolis. Let them let them tell that story and like what worked and what didn't work. You know, you know, my view is lots lots of things start running through my head when I see things like that. And it's like, well, how did it get that way? And where did the fire start? And you know, did we supply the fire department connection? Was the system even turned on? You know, we we heard the fire chief say, you know, water supply issues, and then you know, smoke, you know, for miles, and then I think I think I heard like 2.5 miles away embers catching other pieces of other things on fire. I seen a I think it was like well into a one-alarm fire at just a like a landscaping mulch place because everything, everything there was on fire. I think they had an exposure. The FedEx building ended up having a fire in it. So, you know, my point on the Tracy fire right now is if you have these buildings, you need to be thinking about what does it look like and what do we do when it when the fire looks like that? Because if it if it gets ahead of the system or the system is not working, we are not built. The fire service, the American fire service is not built to fight those fires. And you know, we can start it all the way back to to the water supply piece. You know, generally that water supply system is gonna be designed and required to supply enough water for X number of sprinkler heads going off inside of a building. And beyond that, if the sprinkler system doesn't get it, we're not gonna we're not gonna get it either, and we're not gonna get ahead of it. So having that understanding and and and those considerations of when one of these buildings gets gone and you know, you got a million square feet of you know class A material and all the plastics and everything else that's in there on fire, we we're never gonna have enough water, you know, to put it out right now. And and we saw that with this fire. And I think it's not much different than many of the other big box fires that we've seen where there was where there was something with the system uh where the fire overran the sprinkler system, or the I don't want to even say overran the sprinkler system, where when the when the when the fire was larger than what the sprinkler system could could handle, or the sprinkler system wasn't working. And I don't want to say overrun because that that's that's making like the system didn't work, and in this case, maybe the system didn't work because it was shut off or faulty or whatever it is, and I'm I'm not jumping to conclusions on that. I'm just making a a statement there. But like the defensive fire in California intentionally set person sets 20 different fires in a million square foot building, the system is not designed for 20 different fires inside of that building. So, you know, understanding the capabilities and limitations of the systems and best practice of what we do there, and then you know, backing up to making sure you have pre-plans, making sure that everybody's on the same page, where is the fire department connection? Where can we get video of early video maybe from inside the building of where the fire, where the fire started for so that we have the best access. And then, you know, as soon as possible, talking to the responsible party people, the people responsible for the system, and then the people responsible for the occupant in the building that has the most knowledge of of that facility. And we've we've done quite a few podcasts on big box buildings and you know, the the Monroe Fire Department here in Ohio, we've we've talked to them, I think, two different times now about big box fires. And you know, they've had they've had great success with you know their pre-planning and you know, hooking to the fire department connection and then setting up attack teams and getting initial roof report, doing all those things we talk about when everything goes, doing everything right when everything goes right. And then on the flip of it, it's the we have to do everything right still when something that we have no control over went wrong. So just having that understanding and then the clear offensive versus defensive, you know, component. So, you know, we we might say it's defensive, but that means we need to have a standoff distance. And we we should not have people in the warm zone, collapse zone, anywhere around a building when we go defensive, because that means we're we're writing it off. It's gonna be it's gonna be a loss. So if you're if you're looking to gain more information about big box fires, N FSA's doing that MAGA warehouse seminar, it's free in Brighton, Michigan, July 17th. And then they're doing the exact same seminar here in Cincinnati, Springdale, Ohio, July 22nd. And that's that's from the Plainfield, Indiana incident. And there's going to be people there on site that were at the incident talking about you know their lessons learned, as well as the people from the NFSA talking about, you know, best practice and what that looks like when you go to these buildings. And then beyond that, we do have three big box workshops scheduled between now and the end of the year. So Benton Harbor, Michigan, October 1st and 2nd. I think there'll be like 10 seats open in that. And then we're at the AVB C T C in Phoenix October 19th and 20th. Be an excellent time to, you know, go to Phoenix in October. And then Ann Arbor, Michigan, December 3rd and 4th. And we're working on figuring out dates to do classes, big box classes for next year. We had we had, I think, 20 requests that didn't uh this year that didn't get a class because we we work around, obviously have to work around chain schedule and his availability, and he can he can only do what he does because he's out there doing everything he does to advocate for you know sprinkler systems and having a safer fire environment. Because that that's what we're here for, right? And I I love when people oh sprinkler systems, I hate sprinkler systems, I have whatever. And it's like, well, you got a shirt on that says you're you're here for them. Well, if you're here for them, then you should be behind sprinkler systems because that is the one thing that's gonna make the biggest difference and have the fat put the fire out the fastest. So yeah, so those are that's what we have listed out for for this year. And then you can always go to the B Shifter website to see the free big box SOG, and that's a collaboration document with the NFSA, and it lines up with NFPA 1700 and and 13, NFPA 13E as it stands right now for what what should the fire department do when they go to a building that has a sprinkler system in it.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

And I'll we'll include all that in the show notes too, along with the the bulletin that has those resources, along with the podcast we did with Shane, just talking about big box operations and the links to those three classes, too. So cool stuff. I mean, I'm glad we're talking about it. Seems like it's happening a lot more. I mean, you're just seeing a lot more of these larger incidents, and through no fault of our own, other than, you know, sometimes we don't know how those systems operate. And that's why we talk on our big box day. Get access to one of those trailers. There's nine of them regionally that the National Fire Sprinkler Association has. They'll bring it to your department for free, and they'll train your people how fire sprinklers work, how valves work, the fire behavior that occurs once the sprinkler system goes off, what it takes to activate the head. It's it's a great educational tool. So that and it's free. So we start off talking about free training. There's literally free training available for you right there that you can bring out to your department and get a great education, especially for those low frequency, high-risk events, you know, because these are gonna be big dollar loss fires. We just have to write that off. But uh no, no reason to injure or kill, especially when there's zero life safety issues other than us in the building, typically.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

And I and we're gonna start continue to see, we're gonna continue to see more and more fires, I believe, in these big box buildings, just because they're building more and more of them. I mean, they're I I can't drive up 75, 71, around 275 anywhere around here without seeing a big box going up, you know, somewhere. And I'm you know, I'm talking like, you know, 180,000 square foot to you know two million square feet buildings because we really treat all of those similar, though there is a big difference between 180,000 square feet and two million square feet. But you know, our response and capability is is really the same at at both of them.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Well, we were in the Pacific Northwest not long ago. They were talking about a six million square foot data center that was proposed in their area. I mean, I can't even fathom that. Like what what what out there is six million square feet? Is that like that that's bigger than a football stadium, right? I mean, that's way bigger than several football stadiums. I I can't fathom it.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Well, Grant Light did that math, right? It's uh I don't remember what fire was that. Was it the plain field incident, maybe that he did the math out on, and it was I don't remember how many. It's in our big box presentation. I don't remember how many football fields it equated out to. And then we was like 22.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

It was like 22 football fields, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah, it was and we did that because the Walmart, the thing with the houses that we do, like 66 2, 2,500 square foot homes fit inside of a wall, a typical Walmart. And this was yeah, 22 football fields fit inside of of that building. And it's like, well, are you gonna go crawl around looking for something on a football field? Like, would you would you ever so it's like, what about what about 22 times bigger than that, with you know, six foot wide or eight foot wide aisles and everything stacked 40 feet tall. So it's a it's a different animal.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Want to get into the audio that we have this week?

Setting Up The Harrison Fire Audio

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, all right. What what do we have? What are we gonna listen to today, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, so this is uh we've had we've used some audio from this organization before. It's the City of Harrison Fire Department here in Ohio. So they're they're right on the Indiana border at 74. So they're like, I don't know, 80 miles-ish from Indianapolis, right on the Ohio, Indiana border in the southwest corner. Interesting, they they cover a bunch actually and run into Indiana a bunch, like got some contract area that that that they cover going that way. So two-station fire department, they're building a third station. So on a working fire, they're getting you know, five or six other mutual aid fire departments. And I and I said fire departments, not just companies. So that that's that piece of of working together and collaborating and everybody working within the same system. And you don't get there and just get to do whatever you want to do. Everybody's working within a system to solve the actual problem. And on this one, the initial IC here is is a blue card instructor, has been a big proponent of the program since really since the start of it. They make a big push, they train, they pretty much so train everybody at their fire department because at any at any moment, anybody could be riding in the front seat of the truck, which we're we're seeing that more and more, where fireman was riding up, but not qualified for the position. Because if you're riding up and the lieutenant has a requirement to ride the position, then why am I riding up and filling that position if I don't have those qualifications? So and in this case, that wasn't. I mean, the the the the company, he's a company officer, he was the initial IC. But my point is they're training everybody because they are in that situation or that position where somebody could be riding the truck that is not a company officer. They don't backfill with officers like like some organizations that we see across the country are transitioning to or order that they do that. And with that said, it was just I think it was about a month ago we launched that firefighter first responder module, and that's actually going pretty well. And I've had some feedback already from some organizations that put their firefighters through it, and then they had success. They had two firemen that had gone through the program, they pull up in a medic unit at a fire, and they pretty much so gave an excellent initial radio report for the information and the training that they'd had. So the training that they went through with the firefighter first responder module, and then just hearing it, you know, within their organization, their their institutional knowledge and and experience kind of they've gained through hearing their boss at the firehouse or other people at the station give reports. So it all starts with that. It all starts that initial radio report. And I want to say that company officers, you know, we they make or break the incident, and we know that. And we need to train them and and they need to have the expectation of what are they gonna do and what are we gonna do with the next several companies to solve the problem? Not everybody just gets there and does what they want want to do. There's actually a plan of solving the problem, and and we all know that a lot of the incidents we go to, if you send seven apparatus all fully staffed, well, we're we're not gonna use necessarily all of them if the critical factors don't suggest or align that we need all of them to solve the problem. They all have a job to do, but they're not necessarily they're not necessarily getting assigned right from the get-go. And this in this audio we're gonna listen to it's excellent because it's an example of a another example of a company officer doing a size up, giving out good information, and then giving assignments based off the critical factors to to work through and solve the problem. And and in this case, the the IC2 that arrives is a mutual aid chief coming in to that fire and becomes the strategic IC. So it that that again is just another example of everybody being on the same page. And and there's borders, but I want to say there is no borders because whoever's first is first, and whoever's second is second, whoever's third is third, and and that's how re resource is deployed, and everybody's there for the same reason to to make the incident better than it was when we got there.

SPEAKER_07 38:49

Possible

Working Fire Radio Traffic And Transfer

SPEAKER_07 38:50

address, one three nine freeline court, one three nine freeline court. Heavy flames and heavy smoke from the rear of one three nine, one three nine.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Got a small residential fire level, got a working fire with heavy smoke and fire show from the alpha control. We're taking a hydroge stretching line for fire control from our search.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

Charlie L. Engine 28, level one.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

28 file away. Come on, Jack on Alpha.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

We're on Jack on Alpha.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Metic 56, make you level one.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

That's a permanent medicine six.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Alright, give them trying to uh close as you can. Bring your emotional equipment for we got one patient in the front yard with uh furniture. That's gonna move forward for one patient. Uh just a follow-up report here. 360 is completed. Close basement of lookout windows. Heavy fire internally and alpha still. Uh one page being evaluated by medic 56. We're gonna start remaining alpha fans.

SPEAKER_07 40:45

Okay, so heavy fire is one page being evaluated by medic 56, and just so you know, do have another friend.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

I'm also uh accountability on the alpha side of 257.57. Engine 68 level 1 68 countries file away. We want Jack and Alpha Bring your Air Train 454, please.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

Engine 105, level 1. Engine 53, I'm gonna scream Alpha 5.57 engine 56 operating on the alpha 5. I'll go ahead and take a command. Engine 15, engine one oh five, five four on the alpha five. Engine 16 clear. Engine one of five, clear. Alpha when you're in place, let me know. I don't have lack of work. That's where let me bring the task for you momentarily. You have 257, engine fifty-six, and engine twenty-eight working on the alpha side.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

We have no units working on the interior building at this time.

SPEAKER_05 43:17

And engine fifty-eight should be working at the garage doors momentarily. Charlie from command, I have no uh units operating on Charlie 5 at time. Alpha go ahead.57 hour and Charlie. Charlie from command. We have 0.57 on Charlie 5. That's where we have 0.57 down here. The fire appears. Under control back here, we don't have control.

Debrief: Size Up, Assignments, Medical

SPEAKER_00 45:22

So as as we listen to this, you know, that's uh it was all compressed, and I think it was I think we listened to like six or seven minutes of audio, and the total amount of audio actually would have been I think about 16 or 17 minutes, somewhere, somewhere around there. But either way, we cut out all that void space just so people weren't sitting there listening to nothing. We just we just tied it all together. So I'll just start right from the get-go of having a standardized response of command function one deployment that everybody in the county gets the same same response at a minimum, and then you can add additional if you wanted to. So if you had an area where you needed tenders, you know, you it would just get added to the card. So that's a big piece of it. And then as you were listening, you can hear that the dispatch is is engaged and was giving information. So dispatch is a work and fire. There is a victim. The police update with a work and fire, and that there is indeed a victim that is burned. And then you know, command acknowledges that while still in route and go ahead went ahead and called for Duke. That's just the energy company here, just so that they they got them going, right? So work and fire, smoke and flames are visible. You're probably gonna need the energy company. So they they they just kicked it off while still responding. Size up, I think. Excellent, painted a pretty good picture of what was going on, communicated the critical factors, came back with that follow-up report of of what was going on in the basement, that there was not a that there was no fire in the basement, what kind of basement it was, accountability location, said they were knocking the fire down from the exterior, but they were remaining offensive. So that creates confusion for people sometimes because they they put inside and outside as outside defensive, inside offensive, and really it's it is it's inside of the hazard zone, which would still be like the warm zone. But if our intention is we're gonna go inside, then then we are offensive. That that was the mindset, right? So, based off the critical factors going through the risk management plan, they were gonna knock the fire down and go inside. And it's interesting. We just talked about fires that start on the exterior and go inside the building just a few weeks ago on the podcast with Dan. And this is just another one of those examples. And we especially this time of year, we see a huge uptick in these fires started on the deck or started on a grill on the deck or whatever, and then end up extending inside the building. So that the value of the 360 and seeing where where the fire's burning is critically important because we're we're not gonna put typically, we're not gonna be able to put a fire out on the inside that started on the exterior, that the exterior is gonna keep on burning. So in this case, you know, fire spreading on the deck up that siding on the exterior into the second floor, maybe into the attic space. So we have to take care of that problem and be cognizant of that, as well as get companies inside to start opening up and to get the search the searches done inside the building. So IC1 on Quint 57, believe he assigned four companies and then still did the command transfer. So the command transfer, I think, was excellent. Mutual aid chief came in, gave new IC one had their hands full, so so gave you know some information of I'm ready for the transfer. This is where I believe companies are, give me a CAN report. So that was all good information, verified position and function of the units, verified position and function of other units that he had assigned that weren't yet in place. So 28s and 56s that were moving forward. Well, I'm talking about medic 50s. Well, that medic 56 getting assigned. Hey, get as close as you can, bring your medical equipment. You have a patient in a front yard with burned hands. So excellent information there. So that just goes back to the how many medic units do you have coming? You know, we're we're we're we're committed to this, we're committed to life safety. Well, we need to make sure that we have the resources to, if we do find a victim, to not only be able to remove them, treat them at the scene, but also transport them. Our our job isn't done until they're delivered to the emergency room. So having that mindset, and that's just part of that command function one deployment. And you know, a lot of times we see or hear all the medic units that get dispatched, you know, get paired up or tied to a fire company, or if they don't get assigned, they just pair themselves up. And that that should not be happening, right? So if a medic unit's dispatched, they're dispatched as a medic unit. They're likely not dispatched as leave your medic unit, sit there and go join a fire company. And if that's the case, that's fine. If that's what you all do, but it needs to be communicated so that somebody knows, okay, we do not have a medic unit or transport unit available. So good communications, good takeaways, everybody being on the same page there. I like that IC1 was forward-thinking enough that he told Engine 68, I want you to go on deck, bring your air transfill equipment, right? That that's just a little reminder piece of you're on deck, and we want to get those transfill bags and and that red equipment at the entry points. And if we have multiple entry points, we're not going to have just one on deck crew, we're going to have multiple on-deck crews at every attack position. So then those other chiefs, you know, started arriving. So all the chiefs that arrived, all those districts that arrived, arrived from mutual aid departments. But clearly they're all on the same page because they're, I mean, their communication sounds the same. They gave the came same kind of information because they're all operating within the system and they're all certified. So an interesting thing in in this county, and it took a long time to get there, is if you are a response chief in this county, there's minimum qualifications for you to act as a strategic IC or as a div or as a division boss, either one. So, with that being said, it makes it a whole lot easier that you can assign people who have that title typically to those positions because they're qualified and trained to do the job. It's it's it would be like if they're not trained and qualified, it's like calling a paramedic unit that you think has paramedic unit, has paramedics on it, but when they get there, they're non-emergents, non-emergent handicap van drivers. And it's like, that's not that does me no good, right? I needed paramedics, and in this case, you need ICs and people to fill command roles that are that are trained and qualified to fill out those positions. So without hesitation, uh, command officer district in District 53, you know, assigned those other units. So he had the most companies on alpha, so he assigned District 868 to Alpha. And then when District 68 was there, they said, I'm in place and ready for a rundown. And that that's part of the procedure in this county and the way that that operates. So they assign the boss, and then the boss goes to that geographic area, and then they give them a rundown of all the units that are assigned that that are working for them. So one of two things. They can either go back to the apparatus, the first due engine, where accountability or the first due quent in this case, Quentin 57, they said that's where accountability location was. That's where the passports are, they're right in front of the house. Or they could wait on the passports to get their support officer just to grab them, or somebody else could bring them to them. But either way, that's the way that it goes so that they know most importantly who they have working in their geographic area, who they have and what they're doing. And then District 25 from Col Rain gets there and gets assigned to Charlie. And at that point, he didn't have any units, command didn't have any units working back there, but just said, Hey, can you give me a can report of what's going on back there? So it was to get eyes, you know, on what was going on in the Charlie side of the building. And in this case, uh Quent 57 ended up working on the Charlie side of the building to do, you know, overhaul there. So they brought this fire under control, you know, very quickly. We heard we heard the report from I think it was engine 68 of the primary search on the second floor was all complete. But in their needs, they said, because he asked for a can report, and we know that people forget needs, but in the needs said, I need another company, we have extensive overhaul to do on the second floor. So that's everybody working together, getting on the same page. Everybody understands the system, they know what to say and what not to say, and and and and importantly, know when to say certain things, right? Like we don't break the order model unless we have priority traffic or a Mayday. So just another example of you know the Harrison Fire Department doing great work, but kudos to the entire region for in this case, one, two, seven different fire departments coming together at a fire to operate as one. And if you didn't know any better, you would think it was one fire department.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

All right, before we go, let's do a timeless tactical truth. Timeless

Timeless Tactical Truth And Wrap

SPEAKER_01 54:37

tactical truth from Alan Brunicini in my very beat up timeless tactical truth book. You can get one of these at the Bee Shifter store for only 10 bucks. And this one from AVB. Always do now what will save you 10 minutes from now. Always do now what will save you 10 minutes from now. We talk in our blue card command classes about forecasting ahead, not only resources, but what's plan B? What's plan C? What's the worst thing that's going to happen? These guys were planning ahead. I think putting that Charlie division in place is planning ahead in case you have work back there, if that can report had turned out different, and they ended up having some work because they ended up assigning a company to the Charlie side. But but we need to be forward thinking. I hear overly optimistic IC sometimes. Ah, we've got this licked, you know, they're just thinking it's a bread and butter. And I know one of the famous instructors said there really is no such thing as bread and butter because everything is different all the time. Don't get lulled into that sense of thinking that everything is a bread and butter fire. Any thoughts on that truth from you, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah, for sure. You know, that forward thinking piece is a critical component, and it starts with IC1 getting there. You know, what's it look like? Evaluating the critical fire ground factors, where is it at now? And more importantly, where is it gonna be in two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, whatever that is? And then the the forward thinking piece of I haven't all the ICs that I ever heard say, I got it, I can handle it, I'll run it myself, whatever. None of them, none of them have been in that position where they're in that oh shit. I wish I had somebody right now that they could like look over and the support officers in the car tracking accountability for them, or somebody on the alpha side says mayday, mayday, mayday, and yeah, you got it, and you own all of it now. And you know, putting people in place, a lot of it is a lot of it is that forward thinking and and prevention, right? So, you know, if I put alpha there, it puts me in a better place if a Mayday were to happen happen that I could deal with it. But more importantly, if I put an alpha there, maybe I can prevent something from happening, right? So I got another set of eyes, ears, and another brain there actually thinking and making decisions, because we all know when we duck our head and across that threshold, we lose a whole piece of what what's going on anywhere except for maybe six feet around us, and and what we can see with with a thermal imaging camera. So yeah, that that that that that's that forward-thinking forecasting piece, and then uh eve even all the way back to the first thing we talked about on this particular incident when the county said work and fire, and the officer in Quentin came back and said send Duke gas and electric, it was just another one of those forward-thinking things, right? Like, let's get them coming because we're gonna need them, and not necessarily that in this case that it was like total catastrophic, but the sooner you get them coming, the sooner they're gonna be there, right? So I I think like anything, if you think you need them, you better call them now because they're not gonna be here right now. It's gonna take a little time. And I always tell people the the further you get into the incident and the further you are into your alarm cars, the earlier you better call if you think you're gonna need them, because likely the further away the units are. So if you think you need a company in 10 minutes, well, you should have called them five minutes before you thought about you needed them, probably. So uh yeah, critical.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

We reinforce that with simulations too, because we'll hold hold engine four, engine five, and ladder four unless they balance the alarm or upgrade the alarm. All right. Well, hey, this has been a good one. Thanks, Josh. It's good seeing you, and I'm sure we'll be talking to you in the next week or so. And uh thanks everyone for listening to the B Shifter podcast. We'll talk to you next week.