choice Magazine

Vanguard Conversation: Courage

April 26, 2022 Garry Schleifer
choice Magazine
Vanguard Conversation: Courage
Show Notes Transcript

Join Janet, Garry, and her dear friend, colleague, and global leader, Dr. Josie McLean, Ph.D,. and Co-Founder of the Climate Coaching Alliance, as we explore this context for COURAGE, the mental and moral strength to meet the world as it is with life-affirming compassion.

Access FREE resources from Josie: https://the-partnership.com.au/vanguard-conversations/

To effect transformational change in the way we live, and work requires a re-patterning or re-coding of the assumptions and beliefs that underpin our modern western culture. The effect of doing nothing you know – a viral pandemic, racial injustice, #MeToo, working virtually, the great resignation, crashing fertility and birth rates in the western world. These disturbing experiences generate a liminal space - a space in-between. In between what we have known for certain and what will yet be and is very uncertain.

Speaker 1:

I'm Janet Harvey and welcome to the 2022 Vanguard conversation series together. We explore an unearth pathways for radical change through provocative and courageous conversations that assist all of us to find the path through the liminal space. Our society is in today. Each episode, we are joined with an inspirational global visionary leader that we know you are going to love and want to engage with not just today, but in between sessions as the year unfolds and to integrate what emerges in each session with your own learning, living, and leading . Before we go into today's program, let me just unveil the why of this particular series. Maybe it goes without saying, but gosh, so it seems like people forget. We are in unprecedented times that call us to choose to disrupt on purpose. Your being here with us tells us that yep . You're awake to this cascading crises of the 2022 world. Well, some may you fantasize that there's someone out there who's going to take care of all these challenges, your presence here for this next 60 minutes tells us that you and we are already catalysts for change and that you're ready to lead together. Please join me in expressing a special thank you to sponsors , invite change enterprise solutions and choice magazine, founder and editor, Gary Schleifer , who is my co-host for this series.

Speaker 2:

And thank you. I'm honor, Janet. Hello, everyone. Vanguard means being at the forefront of ideas that are emerging. So we may be proactively lead disrupting our thinking as an easy example. Most people put pork chops with apple sauce , but what is apple sauce ? If not with pork chops? Hmm . Our conversations focus on our experience of life today, rather than a theory and outcome, a process or a to buy anything. We invite you to transform your process of listening from something to get knowledge about, to listening, to ask differently and be different in our daily lives. Use our session time to GA today. And after in our virtual dialogue spaces to engage agent conversations, clear of preconceived notions together, let's demonstrate that we are not smarter or better, that we are co conveners of these important conversations, everyone. And we mean everyone is invited into an inclusive participatory experience of reflection, learning, and motivation to engage in catalyzing change.

Speaker 1:

We are called invite change after all

Speaker 2:

I know, and we all have the power of choice.

Speaker 1:

Yes. So a couple housekeeping items, and then I'm gonna introduce our special guests . The first one is what we all know from living in zoom land is that we're listening along and we have something that pops into our head and all of the sudden we're like, we wanna say something, but can you interrupt? Yes. Oh, open up the chat pod , please. If you have a comment or a question, go ahead and speak it through chat directly. And Josie and Gary and I will weave in answers as we can. We will have about 30 minutes with Josie and Gary and I framing a conversation for you. And then we'll open up the mics. Everyone will be welcome to raise your hand and you do that through the , in the lower right of your display of zoom. You can raise your hands and we'll , um , cue you and have a spontaneous conversation with Josie at that point. And we'll go to about 55 minutes to the hour, and I'll have Josie given a summary of what we've been learning about today. And we'll get out of here promptly at 60 minutes. Okay . I think we're set. Are you set Josie? Very set. Love that. Yeah . All right . For those of you that might not know Josie McQueen , which I'm still stunned because she's one of my here and a , and a very dear friend in many ways, my career has been shaped by the things that Josie has asked me to disrupt in my own thinking. And I couldn't think of a better person to be part of this launching of this conversation series. Josie has an , a career that you would've seen on the promotion, but a couple of things. She's the first woman at Chrysler Australia in the long range , financial analysis, talk about systems thinker. That's what you have in front of you. She was also inaugural in Australia and launching the coaching profession, the president's award for her leadership in that way, and came to a crossroads in her own work as a coach to realize there was so much more than coaching. And that's the place where I learned disruption was the moment when she said to me, you know what, coaching's just not gonna get us there. I happen to agree with her. And so please a warm welcome for Josie to the Vanguard conversation series. And the floor is almost yours, Josie, but do you wanna say something personal for yourself? Oh , well,

Speaker 3:

First of all, thank you. And , uh, it's a delight to be here with you. Um, and I just really, I noticed Eve Turner pop into the room and I , I just really want to acknowledge Eve she's my partner in crying at the moment. And , um, um , you know, a big part of my heart , uh , lives with Eve. And , uh , just want to , to thank her for being here and to acknowledge her presence in the room with everyone else too.

Speaker 1:

Indeed Eve and Josie, and , um, are dearly beloved. Allison Wera are the co-founders of the climate coaching Alliance. And this is important because we're thinking about courage in the context of the climate emerge . Of course it has lots of ripple into other parts of social progress. And yet I think there is something very powerful about what Josie's going to bring to us today to overcome the inertia, that many feel powerless in the face of the climate emergency. And so Eve will be , uh , we'll be calling on you when we open up the mics at halfway point. All right . So Josie, you used two big words and I just used them too . Liminal space and systems thinking, and a lot of people kind of scratch their head and go, okay, hang on. This is like too theoretical, too abstract. They , they just must be a more practic, a way to understand it. So I'm giving you the floor and can you give us a practical way to understand those two ideas?

Speaker 3:

Oh, they live together, those two ideas <laugh> um , so , um, and it , it's true, you know, we often think about , um, systems thinking, and there's another word that, you know, blows most people minds to complexity or the theory of living systems or ality. Um, but we live these, like we are these things, so we already know a lot about them. And that's one of the key messages that I would really love you to take away from today. You already know this stuff, you got it. You are, it, you live in complexity all the time. You live in systems, you are a system. So you know, a lot about this. Um, maybe it's just a matter of , um, raising our awareness around it, you know? Um , so it, it's not that it's something out there and yet you don't know about it already. Uh , you do in so many ways. And if I just go to the term liminal spaces for a moment , um , I , I think of us humans as creatures of the liminal spaces. And by liminal, we simply mean in between , it's like a transition space. So we , um , being here, like we want to go there and there's this space in between, and that's the liminal space. And if you think about it , um, in the physical world , um, the liminal space is often between two ecosystems where they kind of rub up together. So one of the classic examples might be a river. So you've got the river going through the banks on the side, but in between the banks and the river , uh , the muddy river banks and they're neither land nor river. Um , so that's the liminal space and for us humans living our lives , um , I always think of becoming a mom . Um, but maybe if you're not female, you might have become a dad, you know? Um , so, so there's that transitioning role, that transition in identity? Um , I was , uh , a carefree, happy person now I , in between we were pregnant and we were in the process of becoming so that's the liminal space, the process of becoming I think

Speaker 1:

Yeah . The process of becoming ,

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So, so how do people learn how to let go of what's comfortable and familiar to them so they can allow for that process of becoming to initiate. And I'm not asking you to answer that question just yet, but it's what cost to mind for me. It's like, it's, it's an okay thing to go, oh yeah, I'm gonna be a parent. And then it's like, oh my God, I'm a parent. <laugh> how did that happen? Right. And we're shocked out of the comfort of our habits and our preferences, and that that's a lot about where we're going. So Gary, why don't we pick up one more framing , uh , com set of comments here that I think will help everyone start to get their own context for why we're talking about this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you. Because, you know , uh , Josie , first of all, great to meet you. And I don't know why our path hasn't crossed until now. <laugh> , uh , I we're, we kind of brought some ideas about how we're framing this conversation, and I have something to add to it before we move on as well. So to affect transformational change in the way we live and work requires a re patterning or coding of the assumptions and beliefs that underpin our modern Western culture. So when I think of that, and I think of the, what you just said about liminal space systems thinking, et cetera . I wanna also add the word courage because that's the theme of our call today. So how do we REPA don't Recode these things that we are just learning or don't know, or assumed? We know,

Speaker 3:

I think mostly there are things that we assume we know. So can I give you a practical example? Um , I'm, I'm talking with you from Sydney today and in Australia , uh , just for those that don't know , <laugh> , it's

Speaker 2:

In Canada , too .

Speaker 1:

<laugh> Phoenix, Arizona <laugh> .

Speaker 3:

And , um, just recently, if you , um, weren't familiar in the news because , uh , we've had so much news from Ukraine and Russia. Um, but just recently in the last few weeks , um, the , the rural areas between Sydney and Brisbane have been flooded, like in ways that we have not known before , uh, they, that some people are calling a Noah event in Noah's a mm-hmm

Speaker 4:

<affirmative>

Speaker 3:

Now just three years ago, these same areas were being burned, like never known before Some of these people are looking at resurrecting their houses at , at , for the third time.

Speaker 4:

Hmm .

Speaker 3:

Now what we assume is, yeah, take a breath. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like , I , I'm not even one of them and I'm stunned by it. What we assume is, you know, people say I have to rebuild my house. We assume that it's okay to rebuild the house <affirmative> , but actually it's not, these places are becoming unlivable. Um, we can expect these events again, we were told these events would occur and we ignored it because we weren't willing to challenge the underlying assumption. The assumption that we have as humans, that life in the future will be as life in the past. And that takes courage because it's countercultural. Um, you know, most people want the comfort of thinking we are going to remain the same. We are kind of biologically wired that way from an evolutionary basis, but we are getting information now, which is telling us life is not going to be the same and we will change. And it will either be because we're forced to change or because we make the choice beforehand and we choose to prepare. Um, so my message really is that we need choose to prepare. I would rather do it that way. And I think most people would rather do it that way than have, you know, to be standing there, looking at your house as it's been flattened or ruined for the third time. And , and, you know, there's been terrible events. So there's the immediate, there's, there's two things happen here. There's the immediate crisis in the moment of people , um, drowning some of them. And I read a story in the newspaper this morning, just before I arrived about a young family, two adults and a baby who were trapped in mud for 24 hours. Um, the baby was away from them and they couldn't hold their baby. Um, and they were mud deep in the mud waiting for someone to come and get them. Now, this is a result of governments not actually preparing disaster and resilience plants . So there are two layers here. There's one layer in the , the immediate, and there is another layer on the longer term, I think. And it takes courage to actually say, actually life is not gonna be the way we thought it would be. It's actually climate change the , the ecological crisis , um, it's happening quicker than we thought. And we actually need to bear that reality. And it's not easy for politicians to get us to bear that reality because it's not news we want to hear. So it takes courage. It's not, it's not easy for me to sit with you today and say, we actually need to bear this reality. We need to see it. It's like popping out, you know, that film the matrix mm-hmm , <affirmative> , it's like popping out of the matrix and, and being reborn into a new reality . And that takes courage because , um, it's, it's not our preferred way of being, it's not our preferred evolutionary way of, of being in the world if you like , we want it to be the same as the past, but the future is not gonna be the same as the past. So I would love for us to make this a moment of choice, a choice to make it as different and as positive as we can. And I think there is a lot of positive opportunity in it.

Speaker 2:

I believe there is, and not relying on our go government and which is why we're having these conversations is to bring it home and make it a we, and not they , or I situation. And I, I didn't realize how bad it was , uh , down there. And so our hearts go out to you and well, let's carry on this convers and see what , what comes out of it. Um, I also wanna say congratulations on your successful CCA festival that you just completed. That was awesome. And , uh , in your, those are the sort of things launching the climate coaching and Alliance. Well, first of all, it speaks exactly to you being the we, what you can do and the courage, I'm sure it took to carry through on your promise. Um, I'd like to just build on that SI those six days of that conference, and just add to what you've already been saying, but what are the advantages you see Josie , the rise from being uncertain, especially like you said about this current climate , uh , uh , emergency. I , I can't even get the words. It just behooves me that it's like, you've just, so I'm gonna pause the question first of all, and just clear a little bit for a second and what you've done for me and possibly other people on the call is you've, you've taken it from over here to like right here and right here, like breath away. So thank you for that. That's courage on your part and just, I can just say breathlessness on my part.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Thank you. It is , um, it's hard to bear, isn't it? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and she says brightening up with cheer in her eyes . <laugh> um, there is opportunity in this moment. Um, so there's two things around this that I believe really strong. Um , the first is we are not aware of the costs of our existing way of living. We're becoming more aware of them, but , um, you know, there is so much wasted, wasted humanity in the way we currently structure our society. I think in the way we do work together, I , um, compared to what it could be. Um, so, you know, so if we just look at society for a moment and my society is different to yours, so please forgive me. If my examples aren't quite as relevant , uh , in the us as they are, are in Australia. But, you know, I , I look around, I see the divide between , between our indigenous cultures and our Western , um , more Caucasian cultures in Australia. We are quite a melting pot. So we have a huge number of , um, different , um, ethnic backgrounds living together. Um, but still we have not managed to integrate our indigenous folk . Um, so , um, I'm very conscious of that. And it's a cost we pay because this, this culture has lived on this earth for 65,000 years and they know how to live sustainably. Not that we want to extract that, but could we learn and walk together , um, around that? So , uh , additionally at work who , who wakes up every morning, he goes, yay . Another day of work, I'm looking forward to it. You know, most people are going, oh God , you know , that's a cost we're playing. It's an opportunity cost. Um , that actually could be reinstated. We could have work, be different. We could have people engaged at work, actually love the work , feeling challenged and yet completely fulfilled by their work. That's a dream I hold, you know , um, we see our , our families falling apart. Um, we have a , a nuclear family, a tradition in Australia, much like in the us and, and yet our families are falling heart . There's more and more trauma in our societies. These are a cost to our society, and we're not recognizing that it's a cost to the way we , um, we live our lives because of the way we expect to live them due to the culture that we've been raised in. So, so first of all, raising our awareness and the existing costs is a, a , a helpful exercise, I think. And I've, I've just named a few. Um, but the other thing is when we are uncertain, when we're uncertain of the future , um, we don't know what to do, which is kind of cool because it opens up a whole range of opportunities. And, you know, entrepreneurs know this, they live in the land of uncertainty and making the most of an opportunity of seeing it when it arises and grabbing it and, and using it , um, as best they can in that moment. And that's the opportunity that exists for us all now. Um, the same opportunities won't arise for everyone, but depending on where you are and who you are, where your passions are, what your strengths are, different opportunities will come to us, but we will be able to spot them if we've got our eyes wide open and we're actually looking for them . The , and I think this is a tremendous , um, time in history. Actually we are going to live through, I believe a period, not unlike the Renaissance, where there will be new ideas, new ways of trying things. Um, new, exciting ways of engaging our creative humanity that I think is innately ours. We are a , a function of nature and nature is inherently creative. And so are we, and this is a time when we can exploit that , uh , innate creativity and capacity that we have. So I think there are tremendous opportunities. Um, and the other one I'd add onto that is there's an opportunity to be part of community. Um , that the way forward is not for individuals anymore, it's actually in community together, we'll make the differences together. And , um, you know, that's why I love the CCA so much. It's a community of people learning its way forward together. And that's what we, we will be doing. And there's so much sense of and love and, and you know, all many of the things that make us human and meet our needs as humans there in that space of community. I think that's another brilliant , um, plus in this area of uncertainty, because we'll know better what to do in community than we know alone. There's a, you Gary , I know the triggers think ,

Speaker 2:

And , and I'm left with one more , uh , question for you in this moment is how I've heard different levels of how much, how much into the future people can handle, how much , how far looking into the future people can handle. Is there, like, you know, it's, it's like we can handle now and we can how now, but then as it starts to get, is there a , a , a point of diminishing return that we have to learn to overcome?

Speaker 3:

That's an interesting question. I haven't thought about it that way before. Thank you .

Speaker 2:

Well, I , the reason I ask that is because in Canada where I live, there's , uh , a conversation about how , uh, just I'll say people in general, aren't planning for their future because they can't picture their future. Perhaps there's too much uncertainty or , um , young people can't afford a first house or things like that. Right. Sorry, first world problems. You've got people up to their, up to their necks in mud and we're, you know, talking about this, but like you said , different realities and they aren't, they don't, they're not saving because they can't, they , they can't get their head around a future.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And I think that's part of a reality that says something needs to change , um, because that's not a good space. Is it like when a , a family can't afford a home? That's like, what is that? Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so, so I think that's one of the trigger points to actually say, actually something needs to change. And , um, I've just been developing a bit of a, a , a keynote speech actually, that, that explores the, the, the emotion of anger, which I think is really important. Um, there's some, you know, other emotions like grief as well that come into this, but the emotion of anger, I think is a , a really important thing that we often suppress. But when you say a family, can't find a way to afford a home that makes me angry. And, and I go, actually, and now I need to channel that anger. I need to actually do something with it and, and produce some change. So it's not just a matter of braining , my anger everywhere, but actually noticing that emotion and going, oh , so something needs to change and, and moving through that to actually create some change. I think it's a , a great impetus. But the other thing I'd say in response to your question, Gary, is that people need a vision of the future. And one of the questions that I've been asking people for 15 years now, all around the world is how do you really want to live your life? How do you really want to live ? So just sink down into that question and, you know, I've never had anyone respond with I, a Lamborghini and a really great job with lots of money, what people respond to me most often with. And I wonder what you are thinking of as I ask you, how do you really want to live your life? Most people respond with, oh , Gary , would you like

Speaker 2:

On the buyer ? And on purpose,

Speaker 3:

There you go. Um, so see, these , these are things that are renewable energies. <laugh>,

Speaker 2:

<laugh> there go keeping the carbon footprint down. That's good.

Speaker 3:

You can have endless growth in those things without doing any harm at all. <laugh> And , and a lot of people talk to me about connection with others, love of their family , uh , healthy food, healthy environment. Um , they want greenery in their lives. We seem to be wired for greenery in our lives. And we know that being in natural , um , ecology actually makes us feel better. It's good for our physical wellbeing. It's good for our mental wellbeing. People actually know what they need, and we now need to confront the assumptions around the way we live. What, what makes us make those little boxes made of ticky tacky as the song went back in the 90 in seventies , um , and how can we reimagine living now? How can we reimagine our cities and our towns and our communities, and, and start experimenting our way forward. And I think it is almost a crisis of imagination. How can we reimagine what it is that we want? And I think we know our hearts, what we want. And I think this is another opportunity of this liminal space is that there's different ways of knowing. We may not be able to intellectually know rationally, know what the Fu future should be, could be, but we can feel our way forward to it. Step by step experiment by experiment . Does that

Speaker 2:

Exactly, that really resonates

Speaker 1:

And let let's keep going with that particular thread Josie, because I think one of the things I hear often when I'm talking with people about the future and about change is the UN being uncomfortable with being uncom <affirmative> . So I , I don't know about the future. I don't know whether I have the capacity to create a future. Um , the system is too big. Uh , you know, my life is pretty easy the way it is. I'm just gonna keep going along to get along and the problems are too big. So how do we write size things? How do we, to the, the , uh , the fable about the three bears and Goldie locks, how do , how do we find the Goldie locks for each person , uh , size of poor age and size of bed that helps them to come to terms with how to change their lifestyle on their own terms, as you've just been so beautifully describing, rather than doing it out of trauma crisis and breakdown, and, you know, dissolution, all of those things are going to happen, but that is not the reason to stand still right now.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that is such a big question. Um, <laugh> Jen and I , in some ways I wish I knew the answer and here are a few thoughts. Um, and I don't know if, if there is the answer to this one , um, my journey , um, of exploring complexity systems, thinking all of that. Once when you get into it, you get into a very scientific heady space and you start learning lots of new scientific terms, and it's very confusing and it takes years to get your head around it. And then when you do get your head around it, you start thinking of it as, as systems that are out there somehow divorced and separate to me . Um , the objects that you're looking at. And sometimes when we talk about systems change, I think people are talking about it in that way, that somehow they have placed it out there and divorced it from themselves. And it's something big and huge, and we have to change the system up there, but actually the system up is connected to us here we are the system. Yeah . Just think about it for a moment. Um, we are engaging in the information tech technology system at the moment that requires an energy system. Some of us might have traveled this morning or this evening, or this afternoon, wherever you are. So you engaged in the transport system. You've probably had a bit of water. So , um, you are engaging in the , uh , the water system. I had some food this morning, so , um, you know, I've just , uh , been a part of the food supply system and the food chain. Um, I bought some stuff last night. And so I've been a part of the , uh, economic retail , um , system this morning. All of these systems are living within us all the time. We are them . They're not out there somewhere, they're us. So if we change what we are doing, we are impacting that system. If we stay the same, we are impacting that system. We are at choice about what we do. Yeah,

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Now sometimes what we do makes a big change, like Greta, Tomberg decided to sit outside that , um , building when she was meant to be at school. And some , I noticed her and someone joined her, and this is what in system theory , we call the butterfly effect, but you could, you know, it's just viral. It's, it's just exponential growth. That's what happens in nature. Um, and, and sometimes you can do tiny little things, like sit outside of school and it has a wha kind of impact in the system. Now, some of us will get lucky and we'll have that sort of , um , impact, or some of us may actually be able to be deliberate about that, which is kind of what we've tried to do in the CCA , or it's not kind . Um , but, but you can't actually plan these things. It's all an experiment. You don't know what will work and what won't work. So you stay in the space and it actually becomes quite a playful space. I don't think it has to be extremely uncomfortable. I , I would like to challenge that assumption, actually it , you know, getting out of our, getting out of our existing comfort zone. Yeah. That can be a bit challenging. Starting to learn to play can actually be fun. <laugh> so , um , and being in the game rather than a spectator, that can be fun. <laugh>

Speaker 1:

And I think that's right . Being, being in the game, right. Being on the playing field rather than being a spectator and expecting somebody else to make it happen. When in fact, every choice we make is an opportunity to have transformed and evolved , uh , what's happening. You , You know , the other thing that strikes me, Josie, as you were talking, not only the assumptions piece, but how people think about success and failure. Yeah . I mean , so, so much of my growing up years was about getting to the right answer. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so you persevere and you keep trying and you keep experimenting, but failure <affirmative> is not an option. Apollo 13, right? We all saw it, bring those people back from outer space. And yet , uh, without failure, we don't learn. So if we make failure wrong, then the play you're talking about , um , never get started. So somehow we have to find a way to loosen our grip on this knee need to be right. The need to find the answer as opposed to many answers. And let's see which mix of them works best. To me, that feels playful, but boy, that's not where , what our education system is doing.

Speaker 3:

<laugh> no, no. And, and we get to the stage, like, I think many of us, I know at you, but I certainly was at school, I think traumatized by yeah . By teachers, you know , um , mini traumas, not huge traumas. Like some people have lived through, but you know, mildly traumatized by getting it wrong. And , um, I , I used to, when I went to school, we actually got graded in seats and rows in our classroom, depend upon how, what , well , we've done in the last weekly test. I can remember being sick one day because I knew I'd done so badly in the test and I didn't wanna get downgraded <laugh>

Speaker 1:

And

Speaker 3:

Right. And wrong works well when you're building a building, you don't wanna get that wrong and have the building come down. But that it's a mechanical system. It's very different to a living system like us, there is no right and wrong that we don't actually fix people. Like we fix a building or a thermostat that it's a different , yeah . So , so we've taken all of these assumptions that we have learned that are deeply socialized in our Western cultures that come from a very mechanistic way of looking at the world, which has served us very well until now. And now we need to realize that we actually generalize those assumptions a little bit too far. They're not right or wrong. They were just more to that sort of system. And now we've realizing we've got these sort of systems and they've actually got different ways of behaving. And now we need to respond to this differently. And it challenges our underlying assumptions, the more mechanistic world. Right. It's a simple, simple assumption.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. Exactly. So that would suggest then proactively challenging our own assumptions is a key part of this formula.

Speaker 3:

I think so. Yeah. And if you don't like the word assumptions, try beliefs, you know, beliefs, and if you don't have

Speaker 1:

Belief references

Speaker 5:

Value .

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Yes. Yeah , exactly. Exactly. Yeah . So , um , we're happy now to open the floor to those of you who are, have been listening in for this first half hour. Um , and we'll make sure all the mics are open. If , uh, you wanna raise your hand, we'll see that on the participant list. And , uh, we will make sure that you are able to ask a question or make a comment, whatever works best for you. And so, Erin , I think you're doing that cuz I still see everybody on mute .

Speaker 6:

Yes. I just changed it. So everybody should be able to unmute themselves as they wish and start their video. If someone wants to <laugh> , If anybody can't do that, please chat and let us know if you're trying to, and it's not letting you or raise your hand and we will , Uh, no, no attempting to

Speaker 1:

Speak, catch a breath. Right. <laugh>

Speaker 2:

Yeah . That's a lot of, I don't even wanna say information. That's a lot to process.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah . I'm sorry .

Speaker 1:

And no apology required. I mean , this is exactly what we're up to here. Hey Eve . Wonderful to see you .

Speaker 6:

Oh, good. It's working. <laugh>

Speaker 1:

<laugh> What would you like to add Eve since you and , uh , joie have just come out of six days of the climate coaching Alliance festival and gosh, the things that I did get to see every one of them was very useful and reshaping my thinking and helping me to think about how to resource myself and my community , uh , to be at choice and not on autopilot. <laugh> , it's really easy to get stuck there. And I wonder what would you like to amplify and what Josie shared with us so far?

Speaker 5:

Well, Paula , by the , if I look at it like this is the end of my day , cause I'm in the UK. So it's now cushion .

Speaker 1:

Yes . <laugh>

Speaker 5:

Just , just apologizing. Um , I , I think what I want is that there's a long , there's a long journey and the journeys , the journey, not line from there to there, it just sort of keeps going round and around and , and to from, well , I'm gonna step back a bit Josie , Alison who sadly died . And , um , Peter Hawkins and I have been writing a book and it's based around , um, a cycle , which take , which takes us from our early curiosity and that people might be sitting here feeling curious about this, write through to people who might , um , want to be really and take it to , to , um, I dunno , joining professional body joining , um , extinction rebellion. And, and I just think the research we did for it shows that people care actually they care . And, and this is research with coaches. There's no doubt about that. That people personally keen to do something. They can struggle to see how it relates to their profession and what they should do. Um, and I suppose the other thing that , that struck me as you're talking is it's quite quite funny . I was asked to , um, take part in this survey there's a in south , which is doing some research around climate change and they asked a question , which such a strange question. They wanted you to choose who , who we thought was responsible for doing something about climate change as if it was one thing , you know , is it , is it companies , is it and me the answers it's all of us. And I love some of the comments in the chat because , um , what was it ? Um , Laurie said , you know , we can all make a difference . Um , and that's of what said we matter . And one of the things I, I just wanted to try is it's easy to get stuck at the point where you feel there's nothing I can do where it's almost like the weight is on our shoulders, but I think if we can move outta that too , but what can I do ? It feels a much more liberating place . And you know , it may not be as grand as setting with , although when we , I set it up , we really think , they think there'd be 2000 members that we take over well , Jo's life more than my life . Um , but there are a lot of things we can do and they can be little things, you know , have a sustainability policy , think about energy , think about, you know , so I just think I want to be positive about it as much I can be , even though I know that there are challenges now I'm going to shut up <laugh>

Speaker 3:

Oh , no , really appreciate that even. And you know , this is beautiful example of why community is the way forward because we've got different perspectives and I get a bit on ho at times, and I love that Eve always brings it back and includes everyone , um, and, and , um, finds ways that we can all contribute. And, and I love that. Thank you, Eve .

Speaker 2:

Well, and you know, I , as I kind of wanna point out the obvious we talked about we, and then we talked about community 1, 2, 1 eye is I , but two eyes is already a, we like, it can be, it's like that commercial. And they tool two people and they told two people and, and so on it, we doesn't take a lot to become a we, and in turn, I'm imagining it doesn't take a lot to make a change if we have the courage to do so.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And maybe it takes more courage not to change, you know, the , if that's a stupid statement, I suppose, but maybe there's a bigger cost of not changing now , um, that we are kind of not aware of. And if we can become aware of it, then the , the obvious response is to change because we need to , um, yeah, I'll , I'll leave it there. I'm getting a bit convoluted. And ,

Speaker 1:

But I think that's the , I think that's the paradox. And, you know, in , in my educational journey, paradox was always the signal that something was ready for change, that it , that it existed meant there was some wisdom and truth in both sides of the paradox, but neither side held the full answer. What would serve in a given moment, we had to evolve it . We had to recombine it in some other way in order to see the path forward. And that only happens through the exchange of ideas, which by definition means, I mean, we don't, unless you're a little crazy, you don't have only conversations with yourself. <laugh> right. They're always happening with other people. And so, yeah . And , and how do , how do we stimulate that? Like how do we help people choose to be in that dialogue, whether it's a leader with their team or an executive team doing strategy work, or, you know, coaches working with the team or coaches working with each other as you've done in CCA , how do we help people want that be inspired by that to step into those dialogues that are evolutionary.

Speaker 3:

So I don't think it's any different to the standard coaching principle. You start where they are. And that's what Eve was just talking about. So there's no point coming in here, if someone's here , um, you've gotta meet them where they are . So , um, so I've been experimenting with lots of different things and the things that I've learned from other people at the CCCA as we've learned together, and we're all exploring together. Um, I've, I've been learning for a long time about not trying to take the issue head on , um, to , I like to use crab , light moves and go from the sides because when you're dealing with complex issues, if you try to take something head on , you're gonna miss it. I know that sounds weird, but that's the truth of it. So , um, so one of the things that I'm doing within my leadership programs now is , um, inviting people to actually step back and ask themselves , um, how am I being a good ancestor? And it was actually an exercise that Eve , uh , introduced first of all. And she, she got it from , um, the book, the good ancestor. Um, I've forgotten the name of the author now , KRAS , um , something like that. Um, and , um, and I invite leaders to view themselves and their ancestors and the people that will come after them over a 100 year span instead of quarter by quarter. What are our votes? Let's step back and look at a greater temporal , um, span. So can we imagine life over a 100 year? Um , and this is not significantly different to many indigenous cultures where they talk about a seven generation span, it's sort of the same exercise. So , um, I , I think just, just inviting people, you don't have to take them head on, you don't have to preach. You don't have to be an activist in that way. Um , it's meeting people where they are inviting them into the conversation about what they care about. Um, I think makes a difference. You know, I was reflecting , um, with someone around some experiences I had as a child, I could remember going fishing with my dad and, and we used to go down there for the pippies or the goals . And we'd go over there for the waiting and back over there for the crabs. You can't do that anymore. Cause it's all fished out. Um, and these are signs, you know, they , they , within our lives and just recounting those experiences and, and looking around saying, well , how has the environment, or you , you know, how has your life changed just over the last 20 years? What do you notice? Because it is changing. Um, I, yeah, and , and I think it's just connecting people to that. Somehow we're missing the dots it's helping to fill in the dots, I think.

Speaker 2:

Well, and if you use the example of the a hundred years, just to think back, what was around a hundred years ago and what wasn't and how fast things have changed. I mean, we all know this already, but what's it gonna take for us to understand process and work with it?

Speaker 1:

We were at lunch today. I'm visiting my brothers here in Arizona. And , uh , we've said, gosh, we should put the program, the television program called the Jetsons back onto the television. Right. I mean, if you think about the things that were in Jetsons, what's Rumba, it's the robotic , uh , you know, floor sweeper and they have one of those. Yeah . Yeah . And what are we doing with trains? We're elevating them, right. So that they can run above where roads are. And eventually those will go away at some point, I'm sure. But you know, we've never lost our ingenuity to meet a challenge. And yet I, you , and yet I feel such despair in people to not tap into their , uh , sense of imagination. I think you said that a little bit earlier, Josie and I, and I feel a sense of responsibility for those of us that are in this dialogue to figure out how do we, how do we move it? How do we move it forward? How do we help people be in their own Vanguard conversation?

Speaker 3:

Yeah . I think, I think wondering, you know, that this one of the, the great coaching phrases, isn't it. I wonder if, you know , I wonder , you've thought about this lately. I , I , I think , you know, just a sense curiosity and in a sense it's like , I , people, many people I think are, so are, so as you were saying , um, Gary so concerned with survival day to day survival, it's really hard to lift your head up from that. But if you can lift your head up, there's new opportunities, there's different ways. If we can live our, lift our heads up and just look to the horizon a little bit , um, it relieves us of the pressure. Um, we know that , um, you know, just standing up and looking out of a window and lifting your gaze up actually does do something to your physiology. So metaphorically lifting our eyes up, but also , um , lifting our eyes up and seeing if we can imagine something different and asking ourselves, rather than just following the same beliefs and expectations that this is the only way to do this. Mm-hmm , <affirmative> , there's not, it's just what we've gotten used to. It's not the only way there are other ways. And if we look at our other cultures, there's lots of other ways that we can get clues from and try things out from and true . I dunno , you know , um, I don't know how successful I am at this, but the more childlike we can become the better, I think <laugh> , You know , they just try to stuff out . They don't care whether they're right or wrong, circling back to the earlier part of our conversation, they're just playing and they're just trying stuff out and learning. And I think that's the attitude we need to take. Um, I don't mean to be frivolous, but I mean, to be playful, lighten up a little bit, let's try it out and let's just imagine something different and it may work and it may not. And we'll learn

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm <affirmative> and that's okay . Cause it's in the spirit of learning.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's good. That's what we do. We learn, we adapt and we are very good at it. And

Speaker 1:

Maybe , maybe that's the thing we need to be doing the symbols with. Right. And , and maybe our hum hums , we are good at it. Human beings are ordinarily inventive and ingenious.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. We are , you know, look how persistent and inventive we can be around trying to hold things aside.

Speaker 1:

Right . There's classic paradox. My goodness. <laugh> is there anybody else who wants to open their mic and , uh , make a comment or ask Josie a question? Sarah looks like you might be.

Speaker 7:

Yeah . I'm I know it is. It's funny. My computer's just acting up today, but I did think of this Josie while you were having the CCA . One of my favorite , uh , people, John Stewart had his episode on climate emergency and he had all these different people and, and , uh, you know, using the round table , if you will, to get input. And I guess a couple things that he has pointed out is that while we've had all this research on methane and, and red meat, that the number of sort of vegetarians hasn't grown substantially, like we thought it would. And , um, that also there's so much concentrated in fossil fuels , um, as far as the percentage of, of damage to the environment. So it occurred to me that rather than think, I don't know anyone in an oil company, I can't personally go there, but perhaps through coaching, but also through letters, through emails, through spending money and also through our politicians who we need to write policy in that seven generation that you just described, because if we write a policy, now new people come in and blah, blah, blah, keeps getting bounced around like a hot potato. And we need to have a through line , no matter who's in office, that this is what we're doing. So what's my question. How , how do you stay inspired when there is sort of this big rock here and we can work all the way around it, but it's the big rock that is keeping us from the , the , the biggest changes that we need.

Speaker 3:

Um, I think a couple of ways think for your question . That's great. Um, so first of all, I'm not attached to any future. Um, so when I first became aware of , um, the kind of trajectory that humanity was on , um, that was a long time ago, that was around about 2003 . And I went through a , my , or a couple of years of crisis where I was pretty close to clinically depressed. Um, and, and then I went through this phase of, oh, hope for a U utopian future. Um, I, I I've let go of that. Now, my hope and my faith is in human creativity and the joy of living in the present. And , um, I take action because it makes me feel good. And I think that if I do don't take action, life will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I refuse to turn out the lights. I think , um, coming and turning on lights is what it's about. And that's my hope just in turning on one light, I don't know how it's gonna turn out the scientists keep giving us predictions of a very dire future. And it's only one slither of the picture. Science is not everything. And the latest I PCC report actually starts to delve into the fact that we need social scientists involved in that that's us folks. <laugh> , we're it last ? Um , so, so , you know, we dunno what's going to happen and we are at choice around what will happen. So let's make the choices and get on with them . That's the way I maintain my hope and it as to the really big rocks, I don't know, and they're outside my sphere of influence. Um, so I concentrate on what I can influence, and I know that eventually life, the pressures of life will change things because we have to , the question is whether it's in time or not. And to that question, there was a wonderful fellow , uh , a wonderful person. And from your country, the , the marvelous Donnell Meadows , um , who was the lead author on the limits to growth the first book , um, from the club of Rome that pointed to the dynamics of , um, societal collapse, I suppose, that were in play. And that was 50 of years ago, actually it's 50 years old this year. Um, but whenever Donella was asked, do we have enough time? Her response was always exactly enough time if we start right now <laugh> and , and I just don't think that we can get better than that answer. And I live by it . <laugh>

Speaker 2:

Wow . Thank you .

Speaker 1:

Time is what it is , right ?

Speaker 2:

Yeah . Yeah . And speaking of time, we're running, oh my God . Close to the end of our promised hour joie . This is your opportunity to share any other key points you want to emphasize and things to motivate our audience to act perhaps something about your upcoming book.

Speaker 3:

Okay . Um , free webinar

Speaker 1:

Too . We wanna hear about both of those.

Speaker 3:

Okay . Um, so, so first of all, Eve mentioned , um, that , um, Alison we brow , um , Eve myself with Peter Hawkins and also with contributions from David, Jake , and Zoe Cohen. I don't know if you are familiar with some of those names, but we've been writing a book , um, and it's called ecological and climate coaching, a companion guide for our journey and are really excited about it. We're hoping it will be released around about September this year, cross fingers , arms legs, and everything else. Um, and , um, it's, it's designed for coaches and, and leadership developer, PE type people. Um, and it's, it's a , it's a journey together. We're inviting the reader into a seven day workshop with us. And to look at that journey that E described from being curious, right round to taking a really systemic view and being active, what does that require of us as people? What does it require us as coaches? So look out for that. We're really excited about that. Also. Um, just a final quote from one of my , um, one of the people that's impressed me a lot. Um, Gregory Bateson , um, his daughter, Nora is very active and well worth , um , listening to if you get the opportunity to, but this was one of Gregory's , um, statements. The major problems of the world are the result of the difference between how the world works and the way people think that it works. And that's what we've been talking about this morning. Um , so what's the difference between the way it actually works and the way we think it works. And can we actually see the reality and change our , our thinking? Um, because we are not, we're not wrong. We're not bad. We're not, humans are good.

Speaker 1:

<laugh> yeah ,

Speaker 3:

We've got everything it takes. And we just need to liberate ourselves from some ideas that have passed theirs by date . And so I'd encourage you to get curious. I don't and have the answers. Um, I have lots of questions and that's what we need. So thanks very much for your time. Um, I also , um, run a course in , uh , systemic coaching for coaches. And there's a link there if you'd like to come and join me, but this isn't really a selling thing. This is just a , um, an opportunity to come along and learn a little bit more. So , um, I wanna thank you for the time to be with you at this Vanguard conversation. I think it's a wonderful thing you're doing. Thank you so much for opening up this opportunity for us all. It's been a delight to be here.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for being here and sharing us all with us.

Speaker 3:

My pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

So toy . We had a question. We thought we'd give the audience and you're welcome to do a variation on a theme. We wanna let everybody know this is a living, breathing conversation that doesn't just happen the five times that we're on the platform together, but we'll be infused into social media with , um, not only some questions for contemplation, but inviting you to try some things out, to share your stories back into social media and build our global community around these Vanguard ideas. That here's the big question we wanted to leave you with. What does this new conversation on courage stir up in your mindset and your worldview that you will incorporate to your life and daily choices? And I'll say that one more time. Maybe somebody on my team could put it in the chat PODD for everybody. What does this new conversation of courage stir up in your mindset and in your worldview that you will incorporate to your life and daily choices. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

And I just want to give a shout out to , uh, somebody who's already taken it on before the question , uh, Lori , uh , I've been inspired to make a new choice and I've been texting a friend to discuss how we can be accountability partners in this new choice.

Speaker 1:

That's fantastic .

Speaker 2:

Haven't even left the call and it's already starting to block . Thanks .

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody go safely . Thank you again, Josie for your time. And we'll see you all in April for the next installment of the series with short FD . Thanks everybody.

Speaker 2:

Bye .