In this interview, we talk with Peter Scott and Pierre Dussault about their article "Futureproofing - Prepare yourself and your clients for constant change."
We will discuss the fourth industrial revolution and how coaches are uniquely positioned to make a difference in this new era. Why coaches do not need to learn the technology but being able to understand what is happening with technology and how it can affect people. We will also discuss AI (artificial intelligence) and why coaches do not need to fear it.
Peter Scott is a futurist, author, and technology expert. A Master’s degree in computer science from Cambridge University led to thirty years of working on enterprise computing for NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory and helping land spacecraft on Mars. A parallel career in business coaching and human development added a uniquely valuable perspective on the implications of artificial intelligence development. He teaches postsecondary courses and bespoke corporate training on how to thrive through the coming era of technological disruption. He’s appeared before highly diverse audiences in several countries, including testifying before a British Parliamentary group on the impact of AI, and giving two TEDx talks.
Pierre Dussault, Eng, PCC, is a leadership/management consultant who brings his unique life and work experiences to help entrepreneurs, engineers and managers be more effective and engaged, and navigate through major transitions in their lives and work. Previously, Pierre had worked 18 years in the telecom industry and five years in civil engineering. He devoted the first 18 years of his career to helping build the telecom networks that give us access to the internet. Now he is devoting the second part of his life to fulfilling his two passions: the understanding of the evolution of human beings and technology. His mission is to help people prepare, adapt and thrive in the 4th Industrial Revolution.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/Futureproofing
Link to Peter and Pierre's website here.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
Peter and Pierre's article was published in our March 2022 issue.
Hi, I'm Garry Schleifer . And this is Beyond the Page, brought to you by choice the magazine of professional coaching and the ultimate resource for professional coaches choice is more than a magazine. It's a community of people who use and share coaching tips, tools, techniques to add value to their businesses. And of course, to their clients, it's an institution because it's been going for over 20 years and we've been dedicated to , uh , improving lives through helping coaches. In today's episode, I talk with two gentlemen, this is my first time doing two authors. And in my view, I have one on each side. So it's kind of cool, like book ends. I talk with futurist author and technology expert, Peter Scott, Peter, thank you Peter. He has a master's degree in computer science from Cambridge university, which led to 30 years of working on enterprise computing for NASA's jet propulsion laboratory and helping land spacecraft on Mars. Awesome. A parallel career in business coaching and human development added a uniquely valuable perspective on the implications of artificial intelligence development. He teaches post-secondary courses and bespoke corporate trainings on how to thrive through the coming era of technological disruption. He's appeared before highly diverse audiences in several countries, including testifying before a British parliamentary group on the impact of AI and giving two Ted talks, he lives in, it says here he lives in the Pacific Northwest. I'd say you really do. You're in Victoria. Yay. Pierre. On my oops . On my other side, Pierre is a leadership management consultant who brings his unique life and work experiences to help entrepreneurs, engineers and managers be more effective and engaged and navigate through major transitions in their lives and work. Previously Pierre had worked for 18 years in the telecom industry and five years in civil engineering. He devoted the first 18 years of his career to helping build the telecom networks that give us access to the internet. God, you guys are awesome. Now he's devoting the second part of his life to fulfilling his two passions. The understanding of the evolution of human beings and technology, his passion is to help people prepare, adapt, and thrive in the fourth industrial revolution. Welcome Peter and pier . Thank you so much for joining me today. So are you guys like rocket scientists? Cause you've got an amazing background of technology, AI telecom, internet NASA.Speaker 2:
Well, you know, I work with people who do this and we have to pause that distinction a bit finer. So there's the real rocket scientists. And then there's the rest of us who were sort of in that, Hey , hello ,Speaker 1:
Got it.Speaker 3:
So , I'm not a rocket scientist, but I am an engineer and I have, as you mentioned, a passion for the evolution of technology and human beings and they are , uh , tightly interconnected. So , that's why we are here today .Speaker 1:
Yeah, no kidding. And especially with this article and , uh, well obviously, I mean, future proofing, like , first of all, let's just in this issue of choice reimagining coaching. The article that we're talking about is future proofing, preparing yourself and your clients for constant change. And to be honest, gentlemen, I held this article, first of all, cuz it , we couldn't fit it in a previous issue, but it so inspired me and, and got perked up my ears that I said to my managing editor, we have to publish it. So apologize for the delay that it , but it's made it in the issue cuz I wanted to see it published cuz it has some amazing stuff in there. What had the , how did you , two of you get together to even write this from the opposite ends of our dear CanadaSpeaker 2:
Well, we had written on the subject independently and I had submitted something to another coaching magazine, not gonna plug the competition right. But P ierre saw that and said, I'm doing that as well and got in touch. And since then we've done things like workshops for business leaders in Los Angeles and started training for coaches because we have so much in common with each other as both engineers and coaches that we see where these cultures need to merge in a way that hasn't happened before. But now is vital.Speaker 3:
So we connected about four years ago and we both realized that we are at the beginning of a new industrial revolution and industrial revolutions bring so much disruption. And we thought that it would be very important to inform people about that and to look at what, and our cultures could have an impact through this fourth industrial revolution.:
Wow. Well, before we go on, so let's just go through all four as a history reminder.Speaker 3:
Okay . So , an industrial revolution happens when some general purpose technologies, what we call GPTs emerge and converge at the same time. So a GPT is a technology that will transform everything . So for instance, the automobile, the internet electricity for the first industrial revolution took place in the 17 hundreds with steam manufacturing and stuff like that in the 1870s with the telephone electricity, heavy engineering steel at the beginning of the 20 F century with the automobile oil mass production within Ford , then we had the age of information with our little devices. Yeah . The internet and social network. And now there is about 10 technologies that will emerge and converge in this decade. You must have heard about artificial intelligence, augmented reality, blockchain and so onSpeaker 1:
Yeah. Well thank you for the history lesson. I wasn't even aware of the one, the steam one was considered an industrial revolution. So I'm glad I asked that one and you've already alluded to why you're in this work cuz of your backgrounds, but you know, truly why, why did you write this article ? Why did it inspire you did the two of you converge on this?Speaker 2:
Well, because we think that coaches are uniquely positioned to make a difference in this era. The thing about exponential change is that by the time you realize it's happening by the time you, by the time it comes impossible to ignore it, it's too late. We are not built to instinctively recognize and appreciate exponential change because it doesn't happen. Uh , often enough around us, if it did if grass grew at the same rate that computers have matured have developed, then it would be 10,000 miles high it stops. Um, but that is what is happening in our computer technology computers double in power every 18 months and artificial intelligence engines, double in size every three months. At some point, this becomes so fast that it outstrips our ability to adapt to it. Now we're now not talking about a technological problem. We're talking about a human one and the ability of people to anticipate and prepare themselves for disruption. We've had an incredible lesson in disruption in the last two years, right? Yeah . No one needs , I no longer need to explain exponential growth to people because they've seen those curves and talked about flattening the curves, but coaches are the people that work with people on those fundamental skills of self introspection of self examination , which are going to become so important in an era when technology can be doing things that we have always thought belonged to people and wouldn't be taken away from us and, and who better than a coach to work with people in business to identify how they can prepare themselves and the organization to deal with changes that might have on a scale that might have taken a hundred years before happening in 10.Speaker 1:
Yeah, no kidding.Speaker 3:
So when we study is history , we realize that throughout the first industrial revolutions human beings evolve pretty much at the same pace as technology but now there is an exponential evolution and we believe that it will be really, really hard for people to follow. So coaching now is something that few people are taking advantage of and we believe it will become something that people will have to go through in order to be able to prepare, adapt and drive in this sport, industrial revolution.Speaker 1:
Wow, amazing. All this , the speed of all of this and wow. I have to ask, so should coaches concern themselves with this technology? Like what, what do we need to do as coaches?Speaker 2:
They , it , this is not about learning the technology, but it's about becoming aware of it. So you don't have to be a technology expert or a leading force in that, but to understand some of what's happening and especially how it can affect people. So for instance, the impact of artificial intelligence, which has been called the new electricity, because of when you think about the paradigm of electrification and how that changed everything today, we now no longer think about I'm using electricity to talk to you. No, I'm talking to you, it's powered by electricity. We don't say I'm deploying electricity when we press on the lights , which say I'm , I'm bringing light into the room. Well , AI is about electrification of thinking and what do we do with our brains, but doing that with computers. So it's not as important to become aware of the technology in the same sense that I need to know how the electrons get into the light switch. I need to know where the light switch is, but I need to know that there is a light switch and I need to know that there is a computer and that we can do this. And I need to understand the nuances of how artificial intelligence that's. My main wheelhouse is going to affect jobs for instance, which ones will it compete with and which ones are safe. News flash coaches are one of the safer ones.Speaker 1:
Thank you, cuz that was gonna be obviously gonna be my question. Next one. Should coach . Yeah. Should coaches be concerned about AI? Because there's, to be honest, there's a lot of conversation about it, but when I hear the way you talk about it being like electricity, how we feel about electricity it sounds more like a , not just a necessity, but a partnership of it's like breathing and air. We , we take it for granted. AI will be something that we take for granted. It doesn't sound like the way you're talking about doesn't sound like it's something we need to be afraid of as coaches am I hearing that correctly?Speaker 2:
Right? It , it is not something to be afraid of. And, but fear comes from ignorance. Right. It comes from not knowing. And, and so that's what we address first is dispel the fears of the unknown. If you think about, say going on a vacation to explore somewhere you're going up the Amazon or you're climbing a mountain, you've never been up before. That's fun. Right. Even though it's unknown now exploration is when you visit the unknown disruption is when the unknown visits youSpeaker 1:
Yeah, no kidding .Speaker 2:
And that's not so much fun, but we want to turn one into the other, our goal is to bring back the agency to the people in this process so that they're not victimized by technology. They feel more in control and they can turn that disruption into exploration.:
Let me give you another example, Garry, a more reset example the advent of social media. So we know that social media can be very useful because as coaches , we use social media to reach more people but some studies have realized that people who were born at have turned 1997, around 2016, there was a big, big peak in suicide rate and depression rate. So we know that social media can have some adverse effects with people. So there are technologies that are coming such as artificial intelligence. You don't have to be an expert in artificial intelligence, but it's interesting to know somewhat about it. So you can help your clients deal with it. We work a lot with helping people develop their human skills because this is our , this is our human skills will help us go through these challenges. For instance, also with the pandemic, we know that a lot of healthcare , people in healthcare are experiencing burnout and stuff like that. A lot of people are out of work because they have a lot of difficulties working in stressful situations and stuff like that. So disruption of technology will bring more of that. So coaches will be able to 12 people prepare for that and deal with it.Speaker 1:
Oh, wow. Well good, good example. Thank you. And that's wow. You got , you've a wealth of information that things I didn't, hadn't even heard about and uh , how it plays out with us. Um, what have the responses been of coaches to your messages in your work future proof , future proofing? Isn't always a topic coaches talk about,Speaker 2:
Right. Well, Garry, that's been amazing. We have presented this now to about 10 chapters of the ICF. Oh wow . At their meetings. And every one of them has been incredibly appreciative and several of them have let us record testimonials from them and it's been, it's very similar to the reactions I get from general audiences when I'm speaking about AI and there's some component of being gobsmacked. It's being run over by an ontological truck. We try to balance the surprise factor here with the need to do something because when you deliver a whole lot of awareness in 90 minutes, because there's not any more time available that can be overwhelming, but we want people to leave, not just feeling that they've been visited by the ghost of Christmas future, but that they have the agency, they have the power to do something about this. Cause we're coming to coaches , not because we want to just build up coaching clientele , but because we see coaches as being probably the most critical agents of like the doers for the change and the disruption in the future. So we really can't think of people who are better positioned to help people through that.Speaker 1:
Yeah, we're kind of like the outliers or so like the observers, but the integrators as well, bringing the information or bringing, embracing it and helping our clients through. Yeah. Um, I want to talk a little bit about your brilliant change and ripple models. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? And I mean, you don't have to repeat what's in the article, but what's been the impact. How do coaches use it a little more insight into those two tools?Speaker 2:
Sure. The change model, the letters each stand for a step in a progression , a model that walks organizations and people through a program becoming more resilient, more anti-fragile to disruption. The change model is about , organizations because we realize that coaching someone in an organization, if the organization is indifferent hostile or ignorant of the paradigms that necessary to survive the future, that person is going to not have the support that they need institutionally. So we the change model is oriented around how do you help an organization adapt itself to these models? And then the ripple model, each letter, again, standing for a state of development is for people peer , if you want to add onto that. Yes .Speaker 3:
Basically, as you know, we are engineers, so we like to put things together, build structure. So basically we looked all over the place about the tools that are available out there, and we brought a bunch of things together to build those two models. So basically I like when we do our conferences with the ICF, I like to mention, we did a little bit like Zach Newton said if I have seen further, it is by resting on the shoulders of giants. So really what we did, we l ook at what other great people have done. So we t alk about N T fragility from T el. We talk, we bring a lot of stuff from agile and other models, lean and stuff like that. And we r eally, really t ry to help our clients get some kind of structure that they can use with their clients.Speaker 1:
Well, and you gave a great example in there too. I'm kind of relating this very simplistically apology, if it's, I hope it doesn't offend, but I'm reading it as one is observation. And the other one is action.Speaker 2:
We, so what we're doing here and certainly observation precedes action is we have a ladder of resilience. We call it. And this will be familiar to coaches it maps onto many other models, but this is adapted for disruption. So it , it starts out with an unconscious stage, not aware of what it is you don't know. And to get out of that stage, we apply shock. We apply this information, what we have that we know that takes them to a place of, well, then they , know that there is something happening, but this tends, as I've said to be a place of paralysis. So we bring some awareness to that. That's our next phase that then of often, this is a stage now of being afraid, fearful again, this is gonna sound familiar, but we, then we bring motivation so that they can reach a place where they want to make a change. They're just aware that they're not competent to do that. And so we apply information that gives them the competence to now reach a stage of learning. Now they want, now they're able to learn and adapt and change their process. And we then apply feedback so that they can reach a place of mastery where then now it's a continual cycle of practice to stay in that place.Speaker 3:
Yeah . So what are models? The first letter of our models for the change models is disruption. So it's about understanding what's going on in the world, especially with the technological revolution and for our in individual coaching process model it's ripple, which is revealed fear. So it's more about observing oneself and , getting more self knowledge as you know, self knowledge is something that philosophers have been talking about for 2,500 years, since Plato said no dice self , and you will know the gods and the world. So there is a lot of emphasis on that because knowing ourselves is a key to success.Speaker 2:
But I want to say here, coaches are going to look at this and say, this is what we do with our clients all the time. This is, this is not new, but what we do is we set it in the context of becoming anti-fragile resilient, right . To disruption. So that becomes the underlying framework that becomes the motivation. So that instead of, so that you approach the client from a framework from a viewpoint of, not that here's this coaching to add a little bit more on like spinal tech , we're gonna turn it up, you up from a 10 20 11 , right. But that , this is actually key to the survival of the enterprise and the person in that enterprise going forward that otherwise people and businesses could find themselves irrelevant out of a job. Not knowing what hit them as a result of this increasing change.Speaker 1:
I love the terminology anti fragility. Yeah. And it, it comes on the heels of, and this is why I was saddened that I couldn't get it in that particular issue, but we've gone through a series of disruption resilience, reimagination. So it's actually been a thoughtful series of issues and themes. And this is an absolutely great reminder of exactly that like this, what did you say earlier disruption can happen to us? As it , it didn'tSpeaker 2:
Exploration is when you visit the unknown and disruption is when the unknown visits you,Speaker 1:
Right? Yeah. So this is definitely something I thought of it in terms of my own organization for choice magazine, not just my coaching in particular, when you were talking about the Southern California bank, where they wanted to acquire younger clients and realized that they hadn't, I mean , a very simplistic example, but boy, that really resonated right away with me. And I'm hoping it will with our readers as well. We're talking a lot about this revolution , the fourth revolution , industrial , is it gonna itself ?Speaker 2:
It's a great question. And, and certainly the tools are emerging that are, are putting pressure on the coaching industry to adapt. There are tools called eCoaching now multiple ones that are like wellness apps that provide input from people using quantified self type of inputs that then become part of the coaching conversation. There are artificial intelligence tools that are positioned as assistance emotional assistance in some way. It might sound threatening to therapists, but they're really staying out of the deep therapeutic, working intended more as , tools that are available at three o'clock in the morning when your typical therapist doesn't want to be woken up. But that can provide a like a sounding board and act in, in that respect. So it's, again, it's something where it's important to understand just what this is doing and what it isn't, because on a superficial inspection, you might think, oh God, the robots are coming for me. They can hold a conversation with a client and the client comes away reporting value. Doesn't that mean I'm done for, but it is occupying a narrow part of something where we would have said that it took human intelligence to do that. It takes a subtle understanding of artificial intelligence to know what limitation it actually has but this is something that we are going to see more of.Speaker 1:
Lately since the beginning of the pandemic, we have done more and more coaching on apps like zoom or any other video apps. And since the end of last year, we have begun to urge to hear a lot about the metaverse so that we might coach people in a few years from now with AR or augmented reality, or it sets . And we might feel like we are together instead of watching somebody on a screen. So this might be something that is coming . So, but we are not sure about where technology will take us, but some of the things like that the metaverse , we are pretty sure at one point we will coach people through the metaverse .Speaker 1:
Wow. I never even thought about one, of course virtual reality, like AR AR, like you're saying, oh , how fun would that be? And can we do it anywhere in the world? Yes , of course, because it's a virtual world. Yes . Right. I'll meet you on the beach guys.Speaker 2:
be happy to one of the things for coaches to know is that there's a lot of pressure now in artificial intelligence to develop emotional intelligence in AI. And it won't supplant the things that you can do. But again, as we were talking about earlier to see it as a partner, to see it as that thing, that, that helps. So we want to shift this conversation about AI, which the media loves to promote from replacing our jobs, to augmenting our jobs.Speaker 1:
Yeah. I mean, look at it mean how many years it's , like I said earlier, it's been going on for decades, that computers are gonna replace all the jobs. And , and I like now there's more jobs creating what computers can do than there are. Right. So it gets kind of crazy. I do have a question as a result of this, to ask as well, is what would you like to see coaching look like in 10 years?Speaker 2:
Wow. What a great question. This one , I should have been ready for.Speaker 1:
Well, then I promise you, I'm not here to stump you, but it's just occurred to me that in a lot of my conversations, everybody knows well about the past and they know what they're afraid of in the future, but very few people wanna say what they'd the future to look like. And you guys are futurists. You can see the writing on the wall. Tell us what , what would you as coaches like to see coaching look like in 10 years?Speaker 2:
Well, I'd like to see leveraging more of the technology, which in 10 years is going to evolve to levels that are barely imaginable today. But to form a partnership with it where we are , we're comfortable and above all to as coaches be, which is be embracing this technology to be comfortable with disruption as a way of life. And helping our clients through that, in terms of the specifics of how the technology might play into that. I don't think anyone can really say how that's, that's going to look in in 10 years. Other than that, there will be more emotional intelligence. There will be , uh , ways of integrating things like that, that you would like to know from clients. So you might see for instance, something , uh, pop up on your screen that says last time, that so, and so client was using , um, the app that you asked them to install on their phone. They ranked at this far out of then emotional norm. You might wanna ask them what's going on in this area of their life. It could be something like that. Yeah. What do you think Pierre ?Speaker 3:
Yes. About five years ago, I wrote a manifesto coaching and that's one of the reasons I met Peter, the title of the manifesto was on coaching in the future of humanity , in which I contend that coaching has not reached mass market acceptance. So, you know, we are maybe 50, 60,000 coaches around the world. So I would like coaching 10 years from now to have more credibility with the general public and the many, many more cultures , competent cultures, certified cultures that could make a difference in the world. So this is what I, I would like to see for coaching in 10 years from now.Speaker 1:
Oh, wow. Thank you. It's, you know, I, I, for me, for choice, my dream is that there's a copy of choice on every coach's desk or in their hands or their technology. And, but for sure that everyone has access easy, affordable access to a coach, that it becomes more mainstream. And I, I hear you , we're nowhere near that. And I've heard rumors there's more than 50,000, just ICF alone has that many registered as members, but we have the EMCC and other organizations in the world that, you know, yes, they overlap, but for most part, they have a , a bundle. So, yeah. But to your point, there's plenty of room and , uh , embrace both technology and opportunity. Thank you both so much. I do wanna ask you, so you excellent article, excellent tools. What would you like the readers and listeners to do with your wisdom?Speaker 2:
Well, we do offer courses on training coaches in this, so that's certainly one of the things we like.Speaker 1:
Oh, great .Speaker 2:
Yeah . We've, we've come up with 18 and hours of , uh , ICF accredited CEUs in that, and t's all packed. It doesn't have any fat on the bone. And aside from that, obviously to inform yourselves about what's going on, I have a whole lot of other products, including another upcoming book on that. But to understand it , to just start, we're coming from a place of realizing that as a coach, you are really going to be called to action, and we want you to be ready. There will be a point in the future, and we can hear the wind of this blowing through the existential trees at the moment where we'll look back on a time like this and go, boy, we really should have paid more attention to what was going on. We really should have been prepared for what was coming in in the future. This is we wanna give people a trip or a time machine to there , and then come back and say, all right , it's time to get your act together. We, and the world need you.Speaker 1:
Well said,Speaker 3:
Well, I would say contact us if you want to know more. And secondly if you want your ICF chapter to watch our webinar or to have us doing a conference we have done it for about 10 ISF chapters. The reception has been very good. So it's a good way for you to be informed about our coaching models and to be informed also about the fourth industrial revolution.Speaker 1:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us for this beyond the page episode, what is the best way to reach you guys and find out moreSpeaker 2:
Sure. We have a website next wave institute.org, andSpeaker 1:
You can nextwaveinstitute .org , and the info is there and you guys are there. Wow. What an awesome conversation. And thank you so much for answering my question. It's been kind of one of my pet projects to have choice be at the forefront of the future of coaching, not just at the reporting stage. So we're evolving as well. That's it for this episode of beyond the page for more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app or right from our website. And while you're there, don't forget to sign up for your free digital issue of choice magazine by going to choiceonline .com and clicking the sign up now , button I'm Garry Schleifer , enjoy your journey to mastery. Thank you, gentlemen .