choice Magazine

Beyond the Page ~ Coaching for the Future of Work

June 28, 2022 Garry Schleifer
choice Magazine
Beyond the Page ~ Coaching for the Future of Work
Show Notes Transcript

In this interview, we talk with Michelle Chambers & Carissa Bub about their article "Coaching for the Future of Work". 

Team coaches support teams within a "systems" context and every team has had to deal with new challenges and opportunities, including restructuring, impact of supply chain distribution challenges, growth or decline in services and supporting one another during a pandemic. What has become abundantly clear is the need for collaboration both within teams and across teams and to stakeholder groups.  Join us as we discuss more about team coaching and how it can create more impact on your clients.

A thought leader in team coaching and organization development, Michelle has provided global consulting, leadership and coaching for many organizations, including several of Canada’s Top 50 Employers.   A Certified Team Performance Coach, global trainer of team coaches, speaker and author, she has been at the forefront of the team coaching field since she was responsible for leadership development, enterprise wide for Telus Mobility in Canada.

Carissa Bub has been a BBC broadcast journalist, TEDx speaker, board advisor to tech start-ups, and podcast host of the Team Coaching Zone. Her focus has been on finding the truth and helping others – mostly chief executives and management teams - be braver in connecting with the people and communities that rely on that sincere partnership to bring about transformative real-world change.

Article: https://bit.ly/ChambersBub
Find out more about Michelle here.
Find out more about Carissa here.

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Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
Michelle and Carissa's article was published in our March 2022  issue.


Speaker 1:

I'm Garry Schleifer . And this is beyond the page, brought to you by choice. The premier magazine and ultimate resource for professional coaches choice is more than a magazine. It's a community of people who use and share coaching tools, tips, and techniques to add value to their businesses and eventually to their clients. It's an institution of eternal learning built over the course of 20 years, dedicated to improving lives of coaches and clients. In today's episode, I talk with team coaches , Michelle Chambers, and Carissa Bub, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue shown here, cuz we are video coach coaching for the, for the future of work and reinventing the business of team coaching. So let me tell you a little bit about each a thought leader in team coaching and organizational development. Michelle has provided Michelle has provided global consulting leadership and coaching for many organizations, including several of Canada's top 50 employers. Michelle is passionate about sporting others to create collaborative cultures that enable people to achieve purpose in their work. A certified team performance coach will wanna know about that global trainer of team coaches, speaker and author. She's been at the forefront of team of the team coaching field since she was responsible for leadership development at the enter enterprisewide for Tellus mobility in Canada, which is huge. Carissa Bub has been a BBC broadcast journalist TEDx speaker board advisor to tech , startups , and podcast hosts of the team coaching zone, which she's gonna share with us after this call, her focus has been on finding the truth and helping others, mostly chief executives and management teams be braver in connecting with people and communities that rely on that sincere partnership to bring about transformative real world change. Carissa describes herself as a leadership coach and facilitator, but is certified in several coaching approaches and other human developed disciplines . Welcome Michelle and Carissa thanks so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 1:

Thank , thank you, Garry. It was so awesome getting, reading and rereading your article. I'm so glad it made into the issue and I am gonna put you on the spot already. We have a team and group coaching issue coming up. So I'm hoping that the two of you will collaborate or separate. I don't doesn't matter. I like it better when teams work on a team article, but uh , that's just me. That's just me, but we have that issue coming up and uh , we'll reach out to for that. I'm not gonna get you to say yes or no right now

Speaker 2:

Looking forward too . I'd be happy to contribute. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's exciting. Well , you know, I was reading this article and uh , some of the things that popped up for me, first of all, there's a question. So you talk about Coco. Was it like, do you mean just two or do you present more than one coach from a series of coaches that the team knows or do you stick with two?

Speaker 2:

Ah , great question. Um, Chrissa , you can feel free to add into this, but I think for most of us co-coaching means that you have a pair of coaches coaching the team as a system. However, you may do additional work such as team of teams, for example, where you might bring in other team facilitators or team coaches. So you could increase the number of coaches, but for the most part team coaching has two people doing the actual co-coaching of the team as a system.

Speaker 1:

Wow. And you know, I never, I never thought of that until I was reading the article. It's like, I was always just picturing one person in front of the group being that, but wow. It , what a powerhouse, because not only do they get the benefit of both of you coaching each other gets the benefit of, of ver observing the other person and going, oh, you know, so you can like recap afterwards and then know what to add in next time.

Speaker 3:

I think there's also something Gary. And I think both Michelle and I and Sophie trained in the organizational relationship systems coaching have been a member of faculty for them , CR global . And there they talk about the third entity. I'm sure you might have had ,

Speaker 1:

I've taken the course,

Speaker 3:

You've taken the course, so we know what we're talking about there. So it's , there is the two, the individuals, but there's also this, their relationship and the relationship, the co-coaching relationship is really doing the coaching in the room, you know, on zoom, Microsoft teams, et cetera . So the art there is really discovering who is this third entity or that is , uh , a living unique personality of its own . And so that's what makes it really interesting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'll bet boy, to be a fly on a wall in some of the groups that the two of you lead, that'll be amazing. Cause I just get this .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's just so supportive to have a team coach too, particularly when the issues get more complex. And I don't just mean like, you know, the dynamics of a team, but the complexities of the business world or the cultures and yeah . The systems that they're operating in, but to have a co-coach to be able to check in with them, to see, you know, are we on the same page as the team, are we taking different things away to be able have one balanced process, so to speak , um , and one balance content and then, you know, to be able to share the expertise that you bring , um , in holding this space on managing, you know, the third entity and to bring all of that together, it's a really enriching, enriching experience. But for me, it's also that and like , you know , Carissa and I, we love to collaborate together in different ways. It just, it challenges your own way of thinking and being as a coach. And I think as a result, we're of better service to our clients too.

Speaker 3:

Exactly . And the way that you see the world, you know, I'd say that, you know, if you think about anything to do with work, there's always relationship and there's tasks. And some people tend to sort of be in that more task driven . Let's the doer. I'm really paying attention to the processes and the systems and other people are paying attention. You know, all coaches need to pay attention to human dynamic. But when there are two of you there in the room, you can really divide and conquer and you can, you can, your meaning making process is so much Reacher and deeper. And that's a , there's just a lot more that you can see.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, yeah, that you've got four sets of eyes going right. Or sorry, four, two sets of eyes, four eyes.

Speaker 3:

Well , I think it's very essential that now in a world of such a rapid change where we are dealing with emergence of this whole idea, we need to put, we know we need to put the, the design, we need just put the structure in place. We need to help the team work through its work. And we also need it to deal with whatever is emerging in the moment. You know? So if one person is holding process, one person is paying attention to the emergent. You can pretty much cover everything that's really going on , um, in your sessions.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah . Wow .

Speaker 2:

And I don't know about you Carissa but I'm finding too. Especially since COVID more and more of my clients, it's much more complex. And that value of having a co-coach is real Garry for years, for 20 years, I would do this on my own. I was trained more as an OD consultant in process facilitation and then got into team coaching. But there is incredible value in it. In fact, I don't even, it would have to be a very small team with less complex issues before I would even consider doing it on my own again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah .

Speaker 3:

Wow. And , and there's a very practical part. Sorry , we , Garry, we're not giving you a moment, Michelle and I , there's

Speaker 1:

A bit of passion in room . What can I

Speaker 3:

Say that's going on ? But the , the , the piece that I find fascinating is now we're all working with mural or mirror or yeah . You know, jam board or whatever we're working with. We've got some sort of facilitation tool, which is helping the team actually organize itself, do the work record it, you know? And so again, you know, when there are two of you, it's just so much more rich to watch at different levels of, you know, what's really going on here, what's emerging. Um , yeah .

Speaker 1:

Well, and I still I'm pick like J just hearing the two of you, you've got it all handled, but for someone like me, who's listening in on this. I I'm , you're juggling like umpteen balls between facilitation. It it's very complex being, you know, in your article , you mentioned sometimes disappearing as the coach so that the team is forced to speak to each other and you know, and then there's a leader in the outside who lacks empathy and, and there's all these balls going on. Like, thank goodness you wrote this article, but like what had you write ? What had you decide to write it at this point in time,

Speaker 3:

Michelle, over to you?

Speaker 1:

<laugh>

Speaker 2:

I think I've just been voluntold <laugh>

Speaker 1:

Well , there's one of those ball that I was juggling slamming . Exactly .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I'm gonna be throwing a glass ball right back at you . Don't worry . You know, it's , it's interesting because in training team, coaches of one of the things that comes to mind is how many coaches struggle in the transition of moving from one to one coaching and into team coaching. And I actually just spoke at the ICF Toronto chapter last week on team coaching. Is it a fit for you and your practice? And so I think this is an unusual time in that team. Coaching has lots of opportunities. It's growing. People are more aware of it. There's opportunities to create more meaningful impact and build on collective intelligence. But at the same time, it requires a lot of different skill sets . We're seeing the ICF even finally recognize this more. So they're coming out with, and they've published their deeper team coaching competencies. Right. Um, and so I think all of this is about, you know, being very aware of what team coaching is right now, but the possibilities of what it can offer to organizations and to people in those organizations moving forward. And I'm sure Carissa can add something to that over to you, Carrisa. You're ready

Speaker 1:

To catch . There we go .

Speaker 2:

Thank

Speaker 3:

You .

Speaker 1:

I didn't realize my podcasts are gonna need toys on balls and yeah .

Speaker 3:

Yeah .

Speaker 2:

I do improv in all my team coaching sessions. Come on , Garry.

Speaker 1:

<laugh> I've got my, my , my magic stick . So

Speaker 3:

I , I have one of those true , but it's a much thin little thing, but it's , uh , yes. Sits there . Um, so Gary, I would go outside in, so I'd say if we look at the world today, obviously we've just been through more than a two year pandemic. We have, you know, that just what's going on with just the planet, you know , climate you name it the whole reinvention of the organization. The future of work as our article speaks to so much rapid change that is discombobulating human brains, human minds just can't keep up with it. And it's based on teamwork, you know, if we're going to solve these big systemic challenge, we need teams of teams, multiple teams, diverse teams to come together to collaborate. Um, so I think on the one hand, it's just that the, what we were really fascinated in is how is the, you know, the external context, really forcing organizations now, what are we seeing at the demand coming from, from clients? Um, you know, what do they need more and more. Um, and then the other thing within the coaching community, you know, just as everybody's, there's much more virtual, there's much more hybrid working, you know, sitting on your own all day. You , you feel a bit disconnected from everything, you know, so this desire to partner the desire to, to be more, to really be offered, to be able to offer and be of service , um, to clients. So the realization that just incentivization, just, just looking at remuneration and rewarding people based on individual performance, it , it no longer works. Organizations need to start really changing the way they compensate people. And that means, of course , uh , not only organizing the work, but then organizing , uh , all these processes and systems that are changing. So then how do you really bring out the most, you know, team effectiveness, organizational effectiveness. So, yeah , based on that very simple work unit ,

Speaker 2:

If I could add to that Carissa too. Yeah . You know, cuz you , you , you kind of triggered something for me too, even at a very practical sense, even if we're not looking at large social agendas and change, the reality is is that every organization's clients have been going through transformational change over the last few years too. So it's being able to pivot , um, as an organization, being able to pivot as team coaches to help support those teams, that they can better understand their team's needs. So again, from the outside in looking at , from the stakeholder perspectives, their clients , stakeholders, partners, et cetera , and no one's been through this before. Hence why it's so transformational. Um, and what I think is the great opportunity is not only to ensure that our clients have the skills and the ability to meet head on and to be more agile, but also to take this as a chance for a pause and , and Carrisa, you and I talked about pausing with a purpose, and this is a good time for teams to reset and even just rethink, what are we doing? What's of value? Where are we supporting our clients? What could we do differently? How have our clients' needs changed over the last two years in particular? Yeah . And so I think a lot of this is really driving what effective , um , teams and organizations are about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, and you know, you spoke to about the, the , the , the , how fast things are changing. I mean, we, yes, a pandemic was one thing, but it's not slowing down. It's just going like crazy. And how do we, you know, how do we support these teams and leaders to, to do that? So thank you very much for that. Um, just to, to bring out a little bit more about those juggling balls, but , um, you've touched on how a lot of this stuff happens, but what are the current trends in team coaching?

Speaker 2:

Oh , I think the hybrid context is probably the largest one right now, leaders themselves, whether it be in one to one coaching or actually bringing in team coaches to say, how can we work better together virtually , um, and not just virtually, but in a hybrid environment. So there's issues of inclusiveness and belonging, for example. So if you have some people working remotely and some on site , how do we even manage the basics of a meeting? So ideally everyone should log into the technology. So everyone has equal power and voice in a conversation. And then that goes to larger issues of inclusion, belonging. So if I'm not coming into the office as much, will I be seen as a member of the team, will my voice be heard? What will my career path be? Will my leader recognize the value that I offer? Right now I've got a lot of individuals here in Toronto coming into the downtown offices and they're struggling because they're like I'm sitting here all day on zoom calls. This doesn't make sense.

Speaker 3:

<laugh>

Speaker 2:

So there's this intentionality that we have to really support leaders and their teams with having those Frank conversations. When do we need to get together face to face ? When is it important to build belongingness and connection? And when can we actually, you know , use virtual technology and then a deeper conversation of who is on this team, who are we as people? What do we need to do to value each other as teammates, as colleagues, as, as employees? Um , and what do each of those people need? I mean, hybrids, not new. I manage hybrid routines globally and nationally 20 years ago before I started my coaching practice. But it is entirely new. The employee voice that is given to this now, which I'm excited about, cuz I think there's so much opportunity. Um, it just took a pandemic to create it, which is making the transition that much harder.

Speaker 3:

<laugh> <laugh> yeah. I'd speak to probably two trends. One is obviously the great attrition that is going on , uh , in organizations. So this , this massive need to retain talent to make, become a workplace that people really want to belong to just creates a sense of trust and connection and belonging. Um, so that, that element , um, intergenerational workforce, that element, how do we do this? A lot of young people entering the workforce. Who've never managed teams before. I hear a lot of CAS saying, teach team leaders how to be team coaches, give them the skills to be able to facilitate the conversations, to bring out, to be helpful and available, not be controlling , um, really understand how to get that balance right between, you know, building strong relationships , um , between the team trust and the team itself. Um, as well as just really having that systems awareness to understand the bigger organization, where, how do you really strategically influence not only within the organizations, but of as , as Michelle really hinted at that the much closer in our supply chain or ecosystem of stakeholder relationships that are there and understanding how to navigate those boundaries. So how do you build teams? Not only just in , within your organization, but across supplier groups, et cetera , et cetera . Wow. Um , and the other one I think is really the, I see a big need. I hear a lot about the struggle to cope. You know, this back to this idea of wellbeing and resilience. Um, particularly I think, I mean , I think goes across the whole board, but I , I work with a lot of senior leadership teams and I , and I , and one of the pleases that a lot of chief executives will will say is how do I really help? Um, people who've been really having to, to lead a lot of drive, a lot of this big transformational, digital transformation, the whole pandemic, how , how do I, how do I actually help? How can you do to help us with how we're struggling at work just to ,

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And those senior leaders are really struggling. I think a lot of organizations have done a fantastic job on instituting mental health and wellbeing programs at an individual level, you know, providing education opportunities for EAP . What a lot of them, I think haven't really addressed is at the team level and the organizational level . Exactly . So what structures or processes in place that could be removed or altered to really support that and hence the conversation around the hybrid work environment. If you've got an organization saying, well, we are gonna mandate everyone to come in in two days a week, that's not really dealing with the issue.

Speaker 1:

<laugh> no, not at

Speaker 2:

All. That's being a little more directive, but looking like we're trying to please people, if we're not having or enabling leaders to have conversation at the team level to understand what each individual needs to be resilient, to adapt to learning and resilience is much more about than just bouncing back. It's really about continuous learning within an organization. If we're not giving them the tools and processes, as Carissa said, then are we really setting them up for successes leaders? And are we really looking at the root causes of these issues, you know, to support organizational health and wellbeing moving forward too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. You know, when you mention these, you know, enforced two days back at the office, it just, it sounds so old management style of, of , uh , ma uh , managing by walking around. If you are at your desk, I know you're working, but what the pandemic and, and , uh , virtual has , uh , has hopefully taught us. And we continue is that we measure by output by results, by impact rather than by the fact that you're sitting there typing at a keyboard means, oh, well, they're working. So let's give 'em a good review. Right.

Speaker 2:

I know. And you know, it's, it's interesting because I think the change for most leaders and teams is actually harder now going back into a new and reimagining the new workplace than what it was when we all had to shift and go remote. Um , that was really clear. It was a core purpose or a really clear strategic objective, you know, employee health and safety. We need to make sure everyone's safe and, and everyone did this phenomenal job. I'm surprised the internet didn't crash at the very

Speaker 1:

Beginning. I know at the very beginning, right. It crashes more now than it did during . And I

Speaker 2:

Was also really impressed with how many employees stepped up because I think most people , um, and this is a coaching principle, right? We believe in individuals and that they're intentionally contributing to the whole, I think most people want to contribute. They wanna be part of something big. They wanna make impact. And yet there's still some employers. I just heard a few weeks ago, there's an employer in the us . Who's still logging keystrokes of people. I'm like seriously in this day and age like that just doesn't make sense. I've

Speaker 1:

Never heard of that. And anyone

Speaker 2:

Who's worked in a sales organization measuring by objective or output or impact has long been a way of, you know, an effective way of ensuring, you know, performance is contributing to organizational goals. Um, but there's just such an opportunity here to really enable leaders to change their style. There's still a lot of traditional leaders out there. And I think , um, I also do a lot of work around building collaboration and I teach programs at SHK in this regard. And it's amazing how many leaders still have that, even if they're younger, because that's what they were exposed to exactly when they had a leader and they're taking on those same behaviors, or they're not provided with support and , and tools to know any differently. Um , but it begs the question of, you know, if we really are going to develop team across teams, build collaboration within and across teams and across organizations, we need to have much more collaborative leadership and leaders need that support.

Speaker 1:

When you also mentioned in your article, more empathetic leaders.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's, you know, which is really strange because it's like they must have a life too, or maybe that's the problem. They don't have a life and they , so they don't understand what it means to be empathetic, but I don't get it anyway. And topic for another conversation. Carrisa

Speaker 2:

Well , you know what I think , I think we can't let that one go <laugh> I can see I'm both needing to address that. <laugh>

Speaker 3:

Well, I think that coming back to this whole idea of, we haven't mentioned it, but the whole idea of rehumanizing work, understanding and organization is a living system that an organization is its people that if you wanted to become a great place to work, if you wanna have a culture that keeps people , uh , that you know, stands out , um , and you want to sustain and be , be there in the future and actually be part of the solution, not part of the problem. So that may take a massive amount of innovation and transformation. You need to help people to evolve. And without empathy there is just, you simply just do not have the ability to connect , uh , to , for other people to have that sense of psychological safety that it is okay to be brave. It is okay to take risks. It's okay to do think differently. It's okay to experiment. Um, without the empathy, I just don't think that there is that very basic , um , human foundation that we need to , to stick around that people . Yeah . People, this is too much threat . Yeah .

Speaker 2:

And I well said, I would add to that too. I do think most leaders want to be both empathetic and productive. In other words, meeting their organizational goals. I think a lot are languishing themselves because of the pandemic, their workloads establishing boundaries. Um, I don't think we have as much psychological safety as we need an organization for even leaders to be vulnerable and to share where they're at. And I think here's the other challenge. I think when we first experienced COVID , for example, the priorities were much clearer. Get everyone virtual health and safety.dot dot , but then as people started to leave lockdown and, and do work again, all the strategic priorities came back, but then there was also all the additional priorities. Now we've got DEI, we've got hybrid workplaces. So I honestly think people are really overwhelmed. And, and honestly I do a lot of strategic planning. Very few organizations are really good about communicating clearly what the key strategic priorities are and encouraging leaders to push back and say, no, if you're gonna give me something else, or this is gonna become a priority, then we need to do that. So we don't have this psychological safety element built into the cultures. Yeah . Um , where it's a two-way conversation. And so all the leaders want to be empathetic. They get based , they get evaluated. We were talking about organizational structures. They get evaluated too often on just the tangible outputs on the performance goals . Exactly . Yeah . And even when I was at tells 20 years ago, we actually gave people employee feedback around the values and the behaviors associated with the values cause meeting the goals is only a part of it. How you go about doing that, how you support your people, how you enable others, how you create that culture is just as important. Especially if you wanna create the workplace that Carrisa and I have been talking about where you're gonna retain that talent and where people are gonna be drawn into.

Speaker 3:

And I think it links to go ahead, Garry here ,

Speaker 1:

A choice. We have a , a tool called the people analyzer. And so we have our values and we measure well measure. We match people to their level of competence or understanding or embracing the values of the organization. And when we first did it, this is only a few months ago when we first did it, we right away, one person stood out right away that we already knew, but this one was kind of the definitive. And so we were starting to make plans to help exit this employee and they left on their own.

Speaker 3:

Okay . That happens

Speaker 2:

In team coaching sometimes too. Garry

Speaker 1:

<laugh> . Yeah. So, so Chrissy , you were saying,

Speaker 3:

I was just gonna say that, that , you know, this links into purpose, a word we haven't used very much as well, that organizations now, you know, different generations or generations, climate grief, a sense of what is this organization? Why does it exist? What impact is it having in the world? You know, PE these things really matter what really matters. You know, we hear that phrase over and again, what really matters. And that of course stands for you as a leader, need to demonstrate that you not only understand that this really matters to me. <laugh> yeah . But it really matters to you too. Otherwise, why am I following you ? Why am I listening to you? Right . So, so you have to be able to really embody that and, and show it now. And yes, of course, performance will always matter. So does impact more and more.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. You, you said a , you have a different word. We over here in north America have the great resignation, but you called it something else.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I called it attrition, but maybe attrition, you

Speaker 1:

Know ? No, no, but I like that. I like, because it's, it's speaks of a , of a same thing. It's purposeful, inden attrition. Yeah . There , and you know, back just briefly on the , the topic of , um, of , uh, of the , of you were saying about the , uh , the organizations and, and, and values, that's what it was values. I think that the younger generation is really teaching us a lot about what's important COVID and the lockdown and the pandemic taught us a lot about what's important. DEI is telling us a lot about what's important to people. We didn't realize it was important to, or how it was important. And the resignation is merely a culmination of all those thoughts for PE individuals that had it at , on mass. So it really is up to leaders and organizations to create a , uh, humanizing work environment.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. It's interesting. I , I was talking to a client of mine who I've , I've worked with this team, it's a global leadership supply chain team. I've worked with them for about four years. Um , they're wonderful people. And I really, really like them very diverse. And I found myself saying to them, so like, take me back to what's the organization's purpose. Like, so what are you guys actually doing? Because they're in an industry which requires you need to have a view, you need to have some sort of answer. Now, I believe in , in , in , in , in the world of business today and he literally, I could see him bow his head in shame, you know, and , and , and he said, we're struggling to keep people we're struggling to attract people. And this is the root course of it . So I think , again , coming back to this thing of empathy , that is what is so , so critically important. And not , of course, not just within the organization, but also because there is a lot of grief and trauma out there. Um , that is just the state of the world that we live in today. We only have to think about here in , you know , the Ukraine , uh , what's going on for Ukraine now. Um , obviously climate COVID , there's just a tremendous amount of loss. Um , and it's all, you know, especially I think for the younger generation inheriting this , uh , maybe Michelle can speak to more , I know your , your sort of your son and everything, but this, this feeling of like, oh, thank you very much, but, you know , we have to clean it up now. So, you know, if you are help, help, don't, don't get in the way, you know, and , and do you really care? You know ?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, and so to , before sorry, Michelle, but I, there's just something I have to say about everything that we've said before this, I have to say, I feel overwhelmed WellMed by just the preparation, the understanding, let alone the delivery of team coaching. Like, how do you handle all of that work? It sounds like, sorry, a lot of work to me get , you know, having the , the management on side , the understanding the , the team itself , um, how do you do it? Is it massive amounts of work or are you so it's become like a routine?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think as you become more experienced, you definitely draw on frameworks and patterns and, and things like that. For me , um, I've always been involved in organizational transformation. And so I actually have the benefit of business acumen and change leadership training , um, to compliment my coaching skills. And so I think like Chris and I, who worked in other organizations, or if you've led teams , um , for example, I think those skill sets enable you to assimilate into a team, understand their current challenges, their needs talk, the language that they're talking, cuz it , it differs across, you know, teams and organizations. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , I personally, I love it. And I like to hear about what's unique or different about their teams . And I also I'm trained in appreciative inquiry for example, mm-hmm <affirmative> so I really enjoy hearing about the positive aspects of what's going well, so I can leverage their strengths. Um, does it take more preparation? I would say initially, and I might even over prepare compared to other team coaches. Um, for example, I might even be thinking ahead and saying, well, what articles or tools might I have? And then all of a sudden you're having a team coaching session and the dialogue goes in a completely different gen different , uh , you know , direction. And you're

Speaker 1:

Like, okay , just

Speaker 2:

Pause for a second re presence myself. And then, you know, it's, it's really that it is coaching to ask those thought provoking questions that generate dialogue and discussion with the team. Um, and so for that element, you can't prepare as much. And I think for some folks, you know, they, that's a struggle for them. It can be a little bit different one on one , but when now you've got multiple people with multiple issues and needs. And if that direction of conversation could go in a different place, hence the value of the co-coach.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. True. Share the , share the, share the joy,

Speaker 3:

Share the joy. You

Speaker 1:

Know ,

Speaker 2:

If

Speaker 3:

I was I'll I'll build on that, Michelle , um, I think some things were what's what's the same, you know, no matter what kind of coach you are, you are a coach, you are asking your , your art is in asking questions, deep listening, asking questions, creating being the container to help somebody else find their answers and , and helping them to move forward consistently until there is some sort of behavior change mindsets change that leads them with the intended results or gets them in that direction. So that's the same , uh , what's the same. You start with, you know, where are we now? So some sort of diagnostics, some sort of assessment. Um, I, I, I like Michelle I'm have been on the faculty of team diagnostic team coaching international I'm with six team conditions. Um, uh , there , uh , so, so, and as I said, CR go , but all of them have different diagnostic tools to help on the team to look itself in the mirror to do. And I also work with the , the collective leadership survey, which is again, very good for teams, which is , comes from the leadership circle profile. And all of these are just ways of helping a team to look in the mirror and , and start the conversation going, make sure you start by having the right conversation in the room. And of course you can just use simple interviews and that kind of assessment . So that's where it starts. And already, I find that when you debrief and have those conversations already, so much of the work is being done because just facilitating that shared understanding and the trust that comes out and the truth telling , and the inquiry itself is very cathartic. Then there's the process of, okay, what are the skills, you know, where , where are we heading, obviously, where , where are we wanting to go? But then where are the gaps? You know, and some of those may be skill gaps though , where there's some sort of training, you know, we talked about team leader, training, the team leader to be , so the team leader to be more of a team coach , uh , I , I do a lot of that, you know, coaching team leaders who , who are learning to do be team coaches. Um , but then there's this other piece, which is of course the team coaching piece. And that will inevitably mean what is the work that we need to do together with you? How do we as two team coaches, partner with you as a team or a team of teams to actually get you to where you wanna go. So I , you know , I think that's very useful to sort of see it. There's a sort of a beginning, a middle and an end , uh , that , that , that there's an arc as an

Speaker 1:

Thank you. I am breathing easier. Now, my overwhelm has been greatly reduced. I'm a systems guy . So you just broke it down really nicely for me. And I'm like, okay , maybe I can do this too.

Speaker 2:

And I think no matter which diagnostic , uh , you might use, for example, I think most of us as team , team coaches always have , um , an opportunity for a team to identify their team purpose, to create team norms, to visualize what their best team might be. Um, so there's definitely some standard practices that exist as well, because it can't just be about coaching the dynamics in the team. There has to be conversations around other enabling and effective conditions. And I have to say , um , maybe this will be of interest to the audience I'm actually in favor of actually using an assessment versus doing long interviews. And that comes not that the data collected from interviews , um , is incorrect. It's just that it's easier to feed the data back to a client when it's an assessment mm-hmm <affirmative> , and they're more likely to accept it because there's less bias because it has nothing to do with me. Whereas an interviewer can bring unconscious bias

Speaker 1:

Into it. Oh yeah. Time of day and voice and everything just yeah. Yeah .

Speaker 2:

And the team will accept the data more so. Right. And then as , as Carissa said, we're really partnering with the team to actually figure out what it is they want to work on, what do they want to address? Oh yeah . And we support them in that context.

Speaker 1:

Oh, they get a say ,

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know .

Speaker 1:

I , oh , I thought this was all about us coaching. I didn't realize the team gets involved.

Speaker 2:

Of course we

Speaker 1:

Have to serve it up .

Speaker 2:

And you know, so that process is all the same. Right. In terms of one-on-one coaching to team coaching , um, what becomes more challenging, I think is the contracting relationships. So it's not just contracting with the leader of the team. Oh, no . Contracting with the team as assistant, hello , contracting with each individual on the team contracting with the co-coach. So that part, I think requires more time up front and absolutely explain what your role is and how you're gonna support the team. And even just the conversations around what is the role of a team coach and whether or not you would actually engage anyone in one to one coaching at any point during a team coaching engagement.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Wow. You guys, this could go on forever. This is so deep and rich. I hope I can have you back again. I do have one more question. What would you like our audience to do as a result of your article and this conversation?

Speaker 2:

Well , Carissa over to you .

Speaker 1:

Oh , look at that boy . It was your turn anyway, Carissa. So

Speaker 3:

It , it was my turn. Um , I think that even if you are an executive coach or a coach who is no , not a team coach at the moment , uh , to consider , um, as Michelle said, is this for you it to , to , to , to really explore how might this training not only help me in my work and help me develop my practice, but actually, how can it help me in my life? Because we are forever building teams, our teams, as a family, it's a way of looking at what are the conditions that we need to put in place to get whatever work needs to be done in a way that helps us to evolve as human beings at the same time. But , you know, and whether it's, you know, as, as a family, as a community and I can see enormous , um, you know, once I learned to do team coaching , uh , I could suddenly see the world not being a great organizer. I certainly could see the world in a different way. Even if I'd worked in other organizations, it was just a way of thinking about, you know, what is the right number of size of people? What are you really up to here? What is that compelling purpose? You know, what is the , how do you build a supportive context? So it's a wonderful tool just to help you to navigate the world as it is today . If you are a team coach , I think as a result of reading the article , um , I , I , I would like to see , um , I think there's something about how much do we influence this idea that as a coach, you stand by and it's a client's agenda. I think we are now. I think there's been a lot more debate about that, that actually we come in in , we really are driving a , a global agenda , your humanitarian agenda, an ecological , uh , agenda about what really needs to be done. So I think I would just say, find your courage to really bring your best self to organizations. And if you can see an opportunity to increase organizational effectiveness and help people become better human beings, then go for it, you know, read the article. Um , please reach out to us, obviously, if you want any support , um , we'd love to work with anybody or just talk to help . But , um , I think just , just , just , just , I think , think beyond just one team begin to think team of teams think , you know , bigger systems, how can you really support system change through your practice? That that would be my, well ,

Speaker 1:

No one day

Speaker 3:

My

Speaker 1:

Shout I'm getting from this right. Is an openness to team coaching obviously, but also how, how does that work in my personal life? Like just the word contracting. So contracting with my spouse about financial goals, you know, what is it, how do , how are we gonna do it? What, when do we know it's right. When do we up our game? When do we step back? You know, just contracting with, with my mother. Uh , we talked about that before we got on about when I can visit that, doesn't disrupt her schedule, you know, things like that. But , uh , uh , Michelle, Michelle, any final words on this, you're gonna take the ball back for a second.

Speaker 2:

I I'm gonna say ditto , uh , to what Carissa said. Um , and I think what she said was very powerful. So I'm still actually processing it, but mm-hmm , <affirmative> one of the things, or a couple of things I would add. One is I think most one to one coaches eventually at some point are working with leaders who have questions about their teams and how to support their teams. And so I think engaging in additional learning around team coaching could only add value even at the conversations, even if you were still serving as a one to one coach. Secondly, I think there's this whole bigger question of systems. We are all part of multiple systems in our life and believe it or not, I was actually part of a system that I think my mother actually knew more around relational systems intelligence before , uh , Marita and faith actually created. And as I was very lucky to have a family system, which probably has a lot of the premises of what we talk about as high performing teams. And I grew up in that and didn't fully appreciate it until I saw and was called in to work with teams really struggling. Um, so I think there's a lot of learning as Cara and you have mentioned that we can take to other aspects of our life. And then for me, I've also been involved in a lot of community engagement over the years. And so there's a lot of organizations working in silos where we're really not addressing , um, you know, systemic issues around the world that I think there's greater opportunity. And if we can teach these skill sets , even if you wanna venture out and start with one leader, and if they learn those skills of how to better support a team and that goes out and then we've got team coaches looking at it from a bigger picture system and agenda, I think the world would honestly just be a better place. Yeah . And if we encouraged more dialogue, more feedback, more coaching in a positive way , um , just think about the potential that is out there and how we could really help each other , um, you know, create an intentionally designed world that supports all of us in the ways that we envision.

Speaker 1:

Wow. Beautifully said both of you. Thank you so much. Now Chris' processing. Look at that. Yeah ,

Speaker 2:

No , I

Speaker 3:

Got so much more to say and I'm very conscious of

Speaker 1:

Your time, Barry . No, no, I appreciate it . I'll hold it back. Well, I do , I do wanna say, you know, that's an alignment with a , uh , I'm, co-hosting a series called the Vanguard conversations with Janet Harvey and we met with , uh , Sharif Abdule yesterday and we had a similar, like there's a match in this conversation in that it's no longer the single hero's journey, but what if it was a journey of 8 billion heroes working together? And I think that's what you're

Speaker 2:

Goosebumps.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, me too, again, like, you know, so, so let's keep that on in, in our hearts and in our minds. And , uh , thank you so much for, for this. I , I agree, Chris, we could keep going on and uh , yeah . And so thank you both , uh , for joining us for this beyond the page episode , uh , what is the best way to reach you

Speaker 2:

Carrie , just before we go there, I would also like to share my appreciation of the work that you do, not just for coaches, but for organizations. Um, and I don't know if people fully appreciate all of the hard work that goes into editing and publishing a magazine coming up with the themes , um , and, and doing the podcast too. And so that's amazing , you know , kudos to you and your team. Oh , thank you . Because I think it's all of us working together and you do such a good job in envisioning the potential themes of the magazines. Chris and I actually worked through the questions that you had put together, and that's how we actually wrote the article. So , um , wanted to share that with you and to those out there, if you're not a subscriber of choice, please, you know, take a look at the issues. There's some really great learning and content from multiple perspectives , um , in coaching and organizations. So , um, thank you for that. And in terms of reaching me , um, you can key in teams matter.ca or Michelle Chambers , chambers, and associates.ca um , that's my organization name and , uh , Chrisa over to you,

Speaker 3:

Carissa Bob , you can find me on that. Um , Ora Bob works.co , which is a consultancy that I also go through, but yeah , yeah, I'm sure those are gonna be in the notes. Um , yeah , but please reach out, always happy to, to talk to anybody who's venting a step further on any journey. Um, yeah , just exploring the unknown is such an exciting part of being alive. Yeah . Happy

Speaker 1:

To ask . I got my dose today, so I I'm good for, well, no, I want more, but <laugh> , um , unfortunately that's it for this episode. So thank you very much for the acknowledgements for your time and your wisdom , uh , for more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. And as Michelle said, don't forget to sign up for your free digital issue of choice by going to choice-online.com and clicking the signup now button I'm Gary Schleifer , enjoy your journey to mastery.