choice Magazine

Beyond the Page ~ Changing The Lens

January 17, 2023 Garry Schleifer
choice Magazine
Beyond the Page ~ Changing The Lens
Show Notes Transcript

In this interview, we talk with Lisa Ong about her article, Changing the Lens ~ How coaching with an inclusive equity lens accelerates cultures of belonging.

As organizations increasingly see the importance of embedding diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging into their policies and culture, more leaders are focusing on how to incorporate those ideas. 

Coaching is a great skillset for promoting cultures of inclusion and belonging because when you look at the traits for inclusive leaders, giving and getting feedback are two of them.  Being curious and listening. Being open-minded, all of those things and skills that coaches are trained for fit right into DEI&B.  

Companies recognized for their DEI work make an effort to embed DEIB into everything they do. It becomes part of the DNA of their culture, and they measure it in their core values and performance expectations.  They don't look at DEIB as an extension of what they do; it becomes part of their brand internally and externally in the community. 

As President and Founder of Wishing Out Loud LLC, Lisa is widely known as a "talent gardener" and "inclusion connector” because she coaches and mentors leaders to support the growth and momentum of their DEIB vision. She is a community volunteer, blogger, and frequent podcast guest.

Lisa received a 2022 Leaders in Diversity Award from The Dallas Business Journal. D CEO Magazine named her to The Dallas 500 in 2023,  2021,  and 2020 as "one of the most powerful business leaders in DFW.” 

Before Wishing Out Loud LLC, Lisa was a national diversity director in PwC's Office of Diversity and Inclusion. She earned her BBA in Accounting from the University of Texas at Austin and her MS in Management and Professional Executive Coaching from the University of Texas at Dallas. 

Join us as we learn more from Lisa on how to we can help provide cultures of belonging through coaching.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/btp-Ong

Learn more about Lisa here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
In this episode, I talk with Lisa about her article published in our December 2022  issue.

Speaker 1:

Hi, I am Garry Schleifer and this is Beyond The Page brought to you by choice, the magazine of professional coaching. choice is more than just a magazine. It's a community of people who use and share coaching tools, tips, and techniques to add value to their businesses and impact their clients. It's an institution of learning built over the course of 20 years. Yes, we've been publishing for over 20 years now and we're dedicated to improving the lives of coaches and of course their clients. In today's episode, I'm speaking with award-winning diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging strategy consultant, coach, and speaker Lisa Ong, who is the author of our Kaleidoscope column in our latest issue Team and Group Coaching. The article is entitled, Changing the Lens ~ How coaching with an inclusive equity lens accelerates cultures of belonging. As President and Founder of Wishing Out Loud, you can see the logo there, Lisa is w idely known as a talent gardener and inclusion connector, I love those phrases, because she coaches and mentors leaders to support the growth and momentum of their DEIB vision.

:

She's a community volunteer, blogger, and frequent podcast guest, our first time, but frequently in the world, which is great. Lisa received a 2022 Leaders in Diversity Award from the Dallas Business Journal. CEO Magazine named her the Dallas 500 for already next year, 2021 and 2020. She's a triple threat as one of the most powerful leaders in Dallas Fort Worth. Before wishing out loud LLC, Lisa was a National Diversity Director at PWC'S Office of Diversity and Inclusion. She earned her BBA in accounting, I want to let that one sink in for a second in accounting when you get to hear Lisa never would've thought, from the University of Texas at Austin and her MS in Management and Professional Executive Coaching from the University of Texas at Dallas. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2:

Thanks Gary, and thanks for giving the shout out to the Certified Public Accountants and CPAs.

Speaker 1:

That's right. Where would we be without them? Structure, right? It's just like you were saying, leaders with DEIB vision, you have to have some sort of structure to frame and work from.

Speaker 2:

I do find that lens of being a CPA where we are always curious and looking for policies, procedures, and systems, it really does come in handy in this work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do love systems, but sometimes they can get in the way too and sometimes they just don't work well. So there's people out there to help us. A little bit before we get into the meat of the conversation, but a little bit history that we recently interviewed Judy Feld, former past president when it was the International Coach Federation and she was one of your instructors

Speaker 2:

And still one of my mentors to this day. So, I'm very grateful that I got to hear her episode right before this for Inspiration.

Speaker 1:

She is a force and an inspiration. Truly. I love her, love her, love her. And now it's your turn. So I'm curious, like, well first of all, when did you first get into the DEIB conversation? I don't know what other way to say that. What inspired you?

Speaker 2:

It didn't even exist when I entered the CPA profession in the eighties. So I was a traditional auditor, heads down doing financial statement audits, being curious about companies and their controls and how they did business. And then coaching started to become more and more important in the workplace as a tool to help retain and advance talent. I was fortunate to be working for a partner who noticed that I was informally coaching and mentoring a lot of staff. So we reached a point in my career where the travel, as auditors are on the road all the time, that the traveling was a little bit too much for me with a two-year-old daughter. So I went into his office and I said, I need to resign and he said, what for? Do you have a job lined up? I said, no, but this travel's really wearing on me. He goes, if that's all you're worried about, I'm going move you into HR. They don't travel until you find something else. And I was like, excuse me. And he's like, you're coaching and mentoring a lot of staff. I was like, yes, I know. You ask all of the managers to take five new associates every year. He's like, but you got like 25. Yours are still here so you must be doing something right cause everybody else gets five new ones every year.

Speaker 1:

Interesting.

Speaker 2:

Wow. So that really opened my eyes to, hmm, I must be good at mentoring and coaching. So I moved to HR and working in HR, I really loved looking at processes, systems and people. It really appealed to me and then they started to invest in diversity, equity, and inclusion. It was a natural fit for me because they're like, Hey Lisa, you're a woman. You can lead the women's group. Hey Lisa, you're a working mom. You can lead the parenting group. Lisa, you're Asian, right? You can help us lead our multicultural employees group. And I was like , okay ,

Speaker 1:

Thank goodness, I'm a continuous learner. I was curious. I said, are you sure? Because auditors were trained to be skeptical. So I'm like, this sounds like flavor of the month. Not sure I want to give up 15 years of my hard earned CPA career to move into flavor o f the month. And t hey said, no, we're serious about this. We can't build out a diversity practice just from New York City. We need to invite voices from across the country. And I was in Dallas at the time, and so I said, yes, I'll give it a try. Wow. And you here.

Speaker 2:

I never looked back. So I moved into diversity and then part of that is you work for different Chief Diversity Officers. They roll in rising stars that are already existing partners and they rotate so that they get to add their own unique flavor and talent to the, the strategy. So I was fortunate to work for all of the chief diversity officers since the very beginning. Talk about job security. Right? You're the glue.

Speaker 1:

Well, and again, a triple threat. An Asian American, you're a mom and you're a woman. So there's a rule of threes in your life.

Speaker 2:

And a continuous learner. Right. And very open and transparent about what I don't know . So when they said we're ready to launch the LGBT inclusion circle, I said, excuse me, can you help me understand where I need to start?They were like, what do you mean? I said, my only exposure, unfortunately has been watching Will and Grace and Queer Eye For The Straight Guy. I'm like , but I want to be the best ally out there. Where do I begin? And they just laughed. They pulled me aside. They're like, we gotcha . They were giving me real time coaching in the moment. Lisa, stop saying spouse. Say this. Say partner. Oh, okay. Like , they were literally coaching me in the real time feedback, which I really appreciated because as a coach, we know the importance of feedback. Both giving feedback specifically as well as receiving feedback.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And so what I started to see was that coaching was also a great skillset for promoting cultures of inclusion and belonging. Because when you look at the traits for inclusive leaders, giving and getting feedback are two of them . Being curious and listening. Being open-minded, all of those things and skills that they train us in coaching fits right along in that sweet spot. So when one o f the chief Diversity officers a sked me this question, she said, if you a re in charge, what's one thing you would do to take our diversity, equity and inclusion to the next level? I said, well, I think you're spending a lot of money on coaches from outside the company and I'm curious why you would not promote from within. There's a lot of very talented individuals that know this culture, who've grown up in this firm, who could really add that coaching leadership skillset here. So they actually created a n internal Coaching Center of Excellence.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

Which was amazing. And then those of us in the Office of Diversity Inclusion were encouraged to go back and get our coaching certifications. So of course as an auditor, I did my research. I said, where can I find a world class , certification program that will also qualify for educational tuition reimbursement?

Speaker 1:

Oh, well there's that.

Speaker 2:

So it was part of a master's degree. It included organizational behavior. It was perfect. It was flexible. You could do it while you worked full-time. You could log into class afterwards. It was perfect. What I didn't know at the time when I signed up for the one at the University of Texas at Dallas was you get lifelong friends from that. So I was in cohort 10A and they provide continuing coaching certification credits for us every month. They bring us together. So I was an internal coach at PWC when I first joined ICF and got active in the North Texas chapter. Little did I know that all of those wonderful coaches that were members were inspiring me along the way that when I decided to leave PWC to launch my own coaching practice, all that wisdom that they shared with me allowed me to jump right in. So I retired from PWC on January 6th and launched the new business on January 8th and I hit the ground running three years ago and have never looked back.

Speaker 1:

Oh , that's great. That's great. Wow. What a path. What a journey. And it's not over because we're continuous learners and I wanted to touch on a few things. It's obvious that the reason you did an organizational spin for our kaleidoscope is because of your background. So I thought that was excellent. One of the things that I noticed as well that I wanted to ask you more about. Well, so here's my curiosity. So I have the belief , tell me if I'm wrong, but I've been living in the belief that if you work on diversity, equity, inclusion, it causes belonging.

Speaker 2:

You would hope so, right?

Speaker 1:

Would that be the intention or is that separate?

Speaker 2:

It's the desired outcome. So for the longest time, I worked on diversity and inclusion. For years, that's all you heard about was diversity and inclusion. Diversity tends to focus on the differences, but I do remind people, diversity is also the similarities. Also, diversity is beyond the surface level. So people go to race, gender, sexual orientation. They don't think about neurodiversity or disability status or veteran status or even diversity of strengths, working geniuses, cognitive learning styles. I think we were talking about, I'm a visual learner, so that's why I like wearing bright colors for my audiences. But I also like podcasts for auditory learners. They don't get the distraction of the visual.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well we have both going.

Speaker 2:

But that's the diversity, right? So they were doing diversity and then inclusion and everyone has a bias that of course I'm inclusive.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But the missing part is if you're not studying what the biases are, you're missing the point and some people get very angry about that when someone says something that's harmful. And I'm like, you have to remember that we are all products of our education, our experience and what we've been exposed to. So I don't necessarily blame them for not knowing. I mean, if you grew up in a bubble and that was your world, that was your world. And as a coach, we're taught to meet our clients where they are.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Now my question then is, how do I expand their worldview and so I always talk about how do you enhance your equity lens? They're like, what's the difference between equity and equality? What's wrong with treating everyone the same? Aren't we a meritocracy? It's like, hmm . It depends on where you sit.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

I said we like to think we're a meritocracy, but because of those biases, some people are getting a tailwind and others are experiencing headwinds. I'm very cautious in how I use my words because some people say, well, they have privilege and then they tune you out if they feel shame or blame. But it's easier to explain a privilege as a tail tailwind. If I have a tailwind, I get to New York from Dallas faster than you. Does that make me any better? No. I just got to ride the tailwind.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Right.

Speaker 2:

But an equity lens is looking for people having those headwinds, right? Yeah . So I use this as my prop all the time. The equity lens. I wear glasses because I have bifocals. But that's what I need them to do as an equity lens is looking at people with kindness, looking at people as humans and anchoring on the heart, because I get called out a lot and they say, Lisa, that's too political. That's too woke. That's this, that, right? There's labels and they want to call me out. I constantly have to remind them we're anchoring on humankind. How do humans think, how do humans feel? When you anchor on belonging, they get it. So they may not understand diversity, equity, and inclusion, but they know what it feels like not to belong.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Especially for business leaders. They know there's lost productivity if people are holding back because they don't belong. And a lot of coaches have studied Amy Edmondson's work around psychological safety. Now with all the trends you're seeing with the great resignation and quiet quitting. I'm like, hello? Coaching and belonging is your solution.

Speaker 1:

But don't you feel sorry for leaders these days of all the balls they have to handle. Increased productivity, engagement, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, hybrid workplace. The background, not noise of quiet quitting and the great resignation. I feel sorry for them in a way.

Speaker 2:

They have so much to do. They're like , Lisa , I can't take on anything else. You're always asking us to do more. Could I ask you to pause and instead of focusing on what you can do, keep in mind that listening is doing.

Speaker 1:

That's what I really like about coaching because coaching is a way of choosing to show up and be present and to create a confidential container for people to belong. So I'm like, I'm not trying to ask you to do extra. I'm trying to ask you to be more intentional on how you choose to show up and how you choose to engage others and create space. I had a great example with an executive the other day. He has high numbers of Asian staff in his firm and he said, Lisa, I need you to come and talk to them because they're too quiet and they don't speak up. I was like, wow. I don't know that as a coach, I can't really fix that. We're not in the fixing business.

Speaker 2:

I said, isn't that a bias that you feel like number one, you need an Asian woman to talk to your Asian employees. Number two that they need to do the changing. I said if we're bridging cultures, like both sides need to be looking at it. So I said, if they're not speaking up, what are you doing to invite them to speak up? How are you creating a culture of belonging where they feel willing to offer their perspective? I'm like, do you ever ask people, Hey, in a meeting I would love to invite all points of view . Lisa, how are you seeing things differently? Oh, so you're respecting my cultural value of I don't want to speak up and make you lose face . You're asking me, how do you see things differently? So now I have permission to disagree. I said, how many times have you asked those types of questions? I said, I bet you 99.5% of the time you never get silence. But it takes intention to ask people, what are you thinking? So that's how I love the coaching approach to DEI because it's asking the questions, being curious about their shared accountability here, everything, there's two sides. So if someone's saying we need to do this, I'm like, well, how are you helping the other side to meet you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly. I remember when I ran my third party logistics firm back in the nineties and when I think about it now, kind of in a way it was ahead of the curve too because one of my best friends at the time was of at Caribbean descent. She is a woman of color, born in Canada though. And she said, well, I want to see how the white guys operate business. Because back then and as is now, it's still predominantly run by white men of privilege. Let's just face it. That's just what it is . And so bringing her in was like, to me she was my best friend. I watched her, she was the president of a local not-for-profit, and she brought me into that organization and I really appreciated and loved her leadership style. But it, and here goes that silly word woke, sorry, I'm not a big fan of it, but I awoke to the idea that, hold on, she's the only person of color in our organization. So there's warehouse and an office. In the warehouse. Oh my goodness, it was literally a mix of cultures and a lot of them immigrants to the country. But on the office side of it, it was all white people. So I asked her like, what do we doing, what do we need to do in order to attract more? And it turns out, like you're saying, we were only offering the positions in places where white people would apply and see it and we weren't going to the Caribbean news or this or that. We weren't being diverse in our request, in our opportunity presentation. I'll tell you, literally, that's all it took was that one piece and like almost overnight, the whole organization changed with qualified people from from all different cultures and backgrounds, more so than it was before.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I'm really glad that you shared that story because I get that question a lot, particularly from public boards on NASDAQ have now been required or requested to add more diversity to their boards. Women, minorities and LGBT to bring that new perspective. I've talked to people about it because they said, well, we only want to hire the best.

:

Implying that would be right.

Speaker 2:

And implying that if you add a diverse candidate, that perhaps they're not qualified. And so I'm always asking, where are you looking and how are you sourcing the nominees for your boards? Who serves on your nominating committee? And if you don't have that perspective or intention on the nominating committee, you'll get sourcing from their same pools.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . More of the same.

Speaker 2:

They're like, well, what do you suggest I do? I said, well, why don't you add non-voting members of new people that you would like to have to your nominating committee that have very diverse networks. That way you have a more diverse pool of talent and ask for CPAs, ask for certified coaches. Ask for the credential, not just the race, gender, or orientation. I always like to say we're more than two dimensions and when people ask me to join boards, I'm like, yes, I'm Asian, but I don't speak fluent Chinese. Let's be honest. If you're, if you're looking for someone that speaks fluent Chinese, I'm not your person. My parents only spoke Chinese at home when they were arguing.

Speaker 1:

They spoke English at home and we just knew they were arguing when they switched to Chinese. So there was no incentive to teach us Chinese because we would know what they were arguing about. That's funny. That's good. You've also reminded me of another speed bump that I encountered on my road through diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and hat is being careful not to check the box. Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging is not a box checking exercise. And as you've said quite well in your article, it's about a vision, a stand for it being, how did you say it, that it was a part of the organization from every aspect.

Speaker 2:

It needs to be part of the DNA.

Speaker 1:

It's part of the DNA. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Because you can't put it in a separate department and it's 0.1 person and say, we're done. It has to be embedded into their core values and their daily actions and habits. Someone's like, well, how do I know if an organization is truly committed to diversity, equity, inclusion? I said, well, look at their website. Do you have to juggle through five pages just to find the word? I said, that's a clue. Look at the pictures and images. Yeah. Look at your interviews on your tours. I said, and ask questions. Ask how do they handle conflicts and complaints? It was like, why? I go , because you gotta do a culture audit. How do they welcome all voices? If they don't, then you know, you're entering a situation where group think is valued.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I know,

Speaker 2:

Even introverts versus extroverts. I had this wonderful conversation with someone who said they felt like the US business corporate culture had a strong bias towards extroverts. They're like, Lisa, that's why you do so well. I'm like, time out . I'm an introvert. I just know how to drink a lot of coffee before an event and turn it off . I said , but you won't see me at a happy hour more than the hour because I kind of start to wane a little bit and I just want to go home or back to my hotel room.

Speaker 1:

Oh my goodness. So how do we take steps to make it, like, unfortunately, it sounds a little bit like a box checking exercise, but there's got to be some sort of decision determination action in order for it to be a part of the DNA. What are you seeing leaders doing that indoctrinates that in their culture?

Speaker 2:

Storytelling is one of the big ones in terms of demonstrating the tone at the top right . Vulnerability, courage, transparency. I love that empathy's finally trending. For the longest time, it was like , Lisa, be more loud, be more vocal. And I'm like, you know , I'm a great listener now it's trending. Yay.

Speaker 1:

Finally.

Speaker 2:

You don't have to be a lion to roar.

Speaker 1:

I know? Right.

Speaker 2:

But it's a little bit of the tone at the top. But then I also work with organizations and remind them that a lot of great things happen when committed people come together. So if you're sitting around waiting for a program to come save you, that's probably not gonna happen. With my 30 years at PWC, if I was waiting for an Asian woman mentor, that's probably never gonna happen.

Speaker 1:

But how am I choosing to belong every day ? So someone's like, I'm waiting to look for an environment where I can belong. And I use talent garden analogies all the time. You know when you're not thriving and growing and you may need to be transplanted but you can also wish out loud. That's why I called my company Wish Out Loud for the resources, opportunities, connections, knowledge and support that you need to thrive and grow. It's a little bit of that empowerment, but it's difficult when you're from a marginalized group that's not taught to speak up and ask for resources, opportunities, connections, knowledge and support. You're expecting others to see that you have the need and to offer it versus being from a culture where there's high self-esteem and they're not afraid to ask for what they need. Well.

Speaker 2:

Versus being grateful for what you get.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Well then there's a reminder of the dominant culture and the history. I tell this story quite often is that I first got it in my DNA when I went to the ACTO conference in Victoria, BC I think it was 2018 or 2019 and Robin DiAngello was speaking.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Author of White Fragility.

Speaker 1:

Right. And she, well , she wasn't directed at me, but she said the words white man of privilege, and do you know, until that date I'd never heard it. And it hit me hard and it felt uncomfortable. It felt like I was being made wrong. But I'll tell you.

Speaker 2:

Shame and blamed, right. Shame and blamed. You're like, whoa.

Speaker 1:

But that lasted for about five minutes because I quickly came to realize it's true. So now I very comfortably say , and I see myself as an ally. That was something I learned very easily on is that I'm an ally. I don't know your experience, I don't know my client's experiences either. So it's my job. And I think this goes to your point about how coaches are well suited, well armed to to be those people that that listen and hear and be , and just by that sheer fact become allies in the conversation.

Speaker 2:

Right. Especially pointing out limiting beliefs and assumptions. I think that's the coach's super strength . So when someone says, well, this feels like a check the box exercise, or this feels like I'm being targeted or precluded from opportunities because of who I am, and I'm like, it's not a zero sum game.

Speaker 1:

The beauty is if everyone feels like they belong and are bringing their best selves to work and delivering at their highest and best, don't you get higher performing teams, which gives you an opportunity to get promoted as well? And so we used to smile and say, yes, the more that we can build this culture of belonging, it's a direct bottom line impact for you. They said, what do you mean? I said, lower turnover has a bottom line impact. You're not having to go and spend more money on recruiting and hiring. To go out and hire talent in this market, you're gonna pay a premium right now versus investing in coaching to hold on and reinvest in the talent you already have. So the reason I wanted to write this article for the coaches is this is the prime time for working with organizations as the solution. Because right now they're talent is leaving and talent is telling them that career development is very important to them. Whether they stay in that organization or not, they're looking for transferable skills. They're looking for the opportunity to have resources. Even if they don't have a coach, knowing they have accessibility to a coach or that they're being seen as high potential and invested in is huge for retention. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. And like you say, our profession is taking a stand , coaching competency support, DIEB, and, and we're just well poised for all of that. Yeah. Thank you. So what we started and is just a adding a voice to the coaching industry, is the column that you wrote for, which was initiated and named by Beverly Wright, who is our dear colleague and friend on the board of the of choice Magazine. She was the one that wrote the first article on it and supported us having a place for DEI&B to be heard. And I'll tell you, Lisa , like your article, yet again, someone else has come up with a different, I don't wanna say angle, but from a different perspective, a different lens, like your title, to the conversation of DEI&B. And I want to thank you very much for that.

Speaker 2:

No, you're welcome. I think if we can sharpen our lens, I always ask people that, right? When you have a magnifying glass, you can look at things closer, but there tends to be a fear of things that are far away, that are furry and blurry. But when you can bring them closer with stories, it's less fearful. I'm hoping that through the ongoing discussions and so excited to see how ICF has embedded the DEI lens into the core values, that really excited me when I saw that. I think we're going to get a lot of traction and it makes me very excited that the coaching will teach, we teach leadership, so inclusive leadership is at its heart. But what we need for DEI plus belonging. So I love to see coaches leading from the front on this.

Speaker 1:

And we are. One quick aside, I'm the president of the Gay Coaches Alliance and Tim, your president of the North Texas chapter of ICF, and I went through the bylaws and along with DEI and B council , we indoctrinated a DEI and B statement in our bylaws. I know that sounds a little bit like a box checking, but it was a result of number of conversations where do we make this statement? Where does it support our commitment? That sort of thing. So I'm quite proud of the things that we've done that seem to be a little bit different in the world. So before we go, I have a couple more questions such as, you've written a glorious article, we've had a conversation. What would you like our audience to do as a result of this article and this conversation?

Speaker 2:

I would just invite them to continue on this learning path. If you want to be an ally, it's an allyship journey. I l ike t o think that I'm an ally, but I have to continuously learn and grow my awareness into action. I have to speak up, show up and stand up consistently for others. I have to be curious and notice when I'm feeling discomfort on different elements or dimensions of diversity because that is my signal that that's my learning edge. And being willing to tell people that I don't know a lot about this topic, but I want to learn has really accelerated my learning journey. I always caution people don't be afraid to make mistakes because that is where we learn. So many people say, Lisa, I a m terrified to say the wrong t hing, so I'm not going to say anything at all. I said, but if you don't say anything at all, other people think you condone the bad behavior. I said, as coaches, even if you don't say anything, if someone says something kind of cringeworthy or cringey, you can at least make a face.

Speaker 1:

Time out . No. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Can we take that side? But I really hope that more coaches will engage with us on the allyship learning journey and think about how do we move from bystanders to upstanders and all the different dimensions of diversity because we're more than two dimensions, right?

Speaker 1:

< Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We're more than just the visible dimensions of diversity, right? It's the identities we bring as a mother, as a daughter, first generation corporate, first generation college. There's just so many different elements that we bring as part of our identity. I'd encourage them to explore that because who we are is how we lead. And as they interact with their coaches, how are they sharing those elements of their identity to build trust with their clients as well?

Speaker 1:

Wow . Thank you. Thanks for those words of wisdom and for the entire conversation for this beyond the page episode. Lisa, what's the best way to reach you?

Speaker 2:

I love connecting on LinkedIn. So on LinkedIn, I'm Lisa M, for Michelle, Ong . And then also , Wishing Out Loud has its own company page. And then, for those of you who prefer Instagram, I'm on Instagram at Wishing Out Loud as well.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Well, thank you again. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, please subscribe to via your favorite podcast app. I know for sure, Apple and Spotify, we are on there and also on our website. While you're there , uh, at choice-online .com , don't forget to sign up for your free digital issue of Choice Magazine. I'm Gary Schleifer. Enjoy your journey to mastery.