Beyond the Page ~ Un-learning - The key to mentor coaching

In this interview, we talk with Master Mentor Coach, Clare Norman, about her article " Un-learning - The key to mentor coaching." 

Before we became coaches, we each developed ways of seeing the world that kept us safe or gave us a sense of belonging to the "tribe," whether that tribe was a family system, a peer group, or our coach training cohort.

The best coaching works on the “who” of the thinker, so that the “what” falls into place with ease (per Marcia Reynolds in Coach the Person, Not the Problem). The same holds true for learning to coach.

The best training and the best mentor coaching work on the “who” of the coach, their beliefs, mindsets and paradigms, so that the “what” of the coaching competencies falls into place with ease.

In this podcast, we will discuss what mentor coaching is, why we need to change our our mindsets and how we can apply them to our coaching practices.  

With over 20 years of coaching experience, Clare Norman MCC is highly sought after by other expert coaches, as well as successful coach training companies as a Master Mentor Coach. 

Clare looks to continually sharpen individuals’ coaching edge and upskill mentor coaches so they can deliver high-quality feedback to their coaches-in-development.

Her laser focus on mindset shifts and her knack for spotting marginal gains has made her a go-to person for coaches looking for mentorship and practical, meaningful ways to improve their practice.

With an international following of both her coaching peers and senior leadership, Clare is making a difference to the world of work via the professional application of coaching.

Join us as we learn more about mentor coaching and how to apply it in professional coaching.

Watch the full interview by clicking here.

Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/btp-norman

Connect with Clare at https://www.linkedin.com/in/clare-norman-pcc or write to her at clare@clarenormancoachingassociates.com.

We invite you to access Clare's gift to you ~ How to enhance your coaching by listening to recordings, an extract from The Transformational Coach: Free Your Thinking and Break Through to Coaching Mastery

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
In this episode, I talk with the trio about their article published in our March 2023 issue. 

Transcript

Garry: 0:08

Hi, I am Garry Schleifer, and this is Beyond The Page brought to you by choice, the magazine of professional coaching. Choice is more than a magazine. It's a community of people who use and share coaching tools, tips, and techniques to add value to their businesses and impact their clients. It's an institution of learning built over the course of 20 years, yes we're in our 21st year publication, dedicated to improving the lives of coaches and their clients because we all want to make a difference. In today's episode, I'm speaking with Master Mentor Coach, Clare Norman, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, "Journey to Excellence - Activating Mentor Coaching and Coaching Supervision. Her particular article, which I love the title and I want talk more about that, is "Un-learning - The key to mentor coaching". A little bit about Clare. She has over 20 years of coaching experience. She's an MCC, is highly sought after by other expert coaches as well as successful coach training companies as a Master Mentor Coach. Now first of all, I know I'm going go into the rest of this, but I'm just dying to know, how did you become a Master Mentor Coach?

Clare: 1:23

It's a self-designated title.

Garry: 1:26

Oh, it's like me. I'm a CSO, I'm a Chief Schmoozing Officer.

Clare: 1:32

Perfect. I love it. I love it .

Garry: 1:34

Just think this may come along that you will make it happen. Stranger things happen in our profession.

Clare: 1:41

I figure that I wrote the first English language book on mentor coaching called Mentor Coaching: A Practical Guide and what I don't know about mentor coaching, well, I don't know.

Garry: 2:00

Is yet to be known.

Clare: 2:02

It's yet to be known. Yes.

Garry: 2:04

Well, let me add a little bit more about you. You, I'm going to talk directly to you and our audience at the same time, continually sharpen individual's coaching edge and upskill mentor coaches so they can deliver high quality feedback to their coaches in development. Your laser focus is on mindset shifts, which you wrote a lot about in the article, thank you and your knack for spotting marginal gains, I love that, has made her a go-to person for coaches looking for mentorship in practical, meaningful ways to improve their practice. You have an international following of both coaching peers and senior leadership. You're making a difference in the world via the professional application of coaching. And what you didn't say for me to say, so thank you for saying it, is you wrote the first English language book about it. Why did you have to say English language? Was there another language that came before?

Clare: 2:56

Yeah, somebody beat me to the punch and I hadn't realized it until after I published mine. Ooh, I can't remember who the author was but he had written a Spanish language book on mentor coaching.

Garry: 3:13

Damian Goldvarg?

Clare: 3:14

Yes. I think it was.

Garry: 3:15

Who was just above you on the header in the magazine who we also have interviewed. So I love how the world's collide. It's a small coaching world. Okay, now I'm going to say, Hey Clare, thanks for joining us today.

Clare: 3:34

It's lovely to meet you .

Garry: 3:36

Calling in from the UK. Thank you so much for taking the time. Well, I normally ask the writers like, why did you write the article? What kind of obvious why you wrote it, but what called you to write for choice?

Clare: 3:50

Well, one of my colleagues actually she sent me the call to action that you had posted about this particular, I was going to say episode but it is not an episode.

Garry: 4:09

Issue.

Clare: 4:11

Issue. Thank you. Being about mental coaching and supervision and she said, of course you've got to write something Clare. So I was like, yes, of course I have. So that was what led me into writing the article.

Garry: 4:26

Well, thank you very much for doing so. I want to go back to your bio and you said you're sought after by coach training companies. Are you starting to see now that corporations are also calling for mentor coaches? Because I've heard that some contracts have to have coaching supervisors.

Clare: 4:47

Yes. So I am doing some mental coaching in corporates who have an internal coaching pool. The thing is I'm not sure that everybody recognizes the difference between mentor coaching and supervision. In fact, I know they don't know the difference. There is an education process about how can the two play in the same sandpit, but give you different outcomes with supervision being about keeping us safe and sane and mentor coaching keeping us sharp. If you put those three together, you get safe, sane, and sharp and so more and more coaches are coming directly for mental coaching partly because it's a requirement of the ICF but also I'm trying to change the perception of other coaching bodies and coaches who are aligned with other coaching bodies to show them actually how much value they can get from mentor coaching alongside their supervision, which is self-reported.

Garry: 6:10

So are you doing work on return on investment like impact studies? Is that what you're saying?

Clare: 6:16

No, no. I haven't gone that far. That's hard to make sure. But the upskilling, the up-leveling, leveling up as our government would call it in the UK of coaches who may have some blind spots that don't get pulled out in supervision because supervision is self-reported and you only bring what you bring. Whereas in mentor coaching, because you've got a light shined directly on your coaching because you bring a recording or you do a live coaching session with a mentor coach observing, there's nowhere to hide. That probably sounds really scary for some people, actually it's the best form of learning in conjunction with supervision. I spend my development money on supervision and mentor coaching primarily because they're so individually tailored to me and where I am as a coach and my journey of mastery that I think that is where the return on investment comes much more so than more training which is not tailored to me as an individual.

Garry: 7:49

Okay. So if you had all of your supervision, all your mentoring covered, what would you learn next? Because you're kind of like the lead of the pack in this area.

Clare: 8:03

In in the area of mentor coaching?

Garry: 8:07

No , just in general.

Clare: 8:09

Well, I only just got my MCC.

Garry: 8:13

Congratulations.

Clare: 8:15

Thank you. I'm a newbie of two weeks, three weeks maybe.

Garry: 8:20

Wow.

Clare: 8:21

Still basking in that. But as somebody said to me, one of my friends, so kindly put it, he said, Clare, you've just reached Base Camp.

Garry: 8:23

How true. What a great way to say that. Because it's not a destination. That's why I always say the journey to mastery.

Clare: 8:43

Yeah. Well, and I would say the journey of mastery, because there's no to. There is no destination, as you said.

Garry: 8:52

Clare. Now I'm going to have to change my closing statements from now on. Oh, journey of mastery. Well, thank you. I've just unlearned and relearned.

Clare: 9:04

There we go.

Garry: 9:06

Which brings me to the article. You entitled it Un-learning. I learned "unlearning" in a course with Janet Harvey on my journey. Oh my gosh, how did we say it now? Journey

Clare: 9:28

Of.

Garry: 9:29

Of mastery. I can't even remember it already. Journey of mastery. Hold on. Put it in the book. Put it in the book. Okay. Journey of mastery. And I heard unlearning and I was like, wow, what's that? So I'd really love for you to just expand upon how you came about that, how you use it and that sort of thing. What do you mean by that?

Clare: 9:50

Well, technically, according to the research, it is not possible to unlearn. So more like we are reframing what we already know.

Garry: 10:07

Okay .

Clare: 10:08

We know that as coaches, that we're supporting people to reframe mindsets that may not be so useful to them in changes that they want to make. And exactly the same is so for coaches. We start on our journey as coaches with many, many mindsets, which we have adopted through life and work through the interjections from our parents or our peers or our work places or even our coach training. We get these interjections from all over the place, which we then kind of integrate into our beliefs and ways of being. They serve us in normal life, if you like, but they can get in the way of us being the best coaches we can be. So, for example, many of our parents, and I am generalizing, but this seems to resonate with a lot of people. Many of our parents taught us that it's rude to interrupt and it is.

Garry: 11:32

I'm sorry, what?

Clare: 11:36

And it's rude to interrupt in the normal course of conversation, but in coaching, there could be a time and a place where it could be useful if the person we're working with is telling the story that they've told a hundred times to other people before because they're not going to get anything new from filling us in on the detail. So as long as we've asked permission in our session contracting to interrupt, there is nothing wrong with interrupting to just check in with them whether this is useful to them to say it out loud, whether they're joining some new dots or not. If they're getting new thinking, then great. But if they're not getting to new thinking, which is what coaching is meant to be about, then let's just make a conscious decision about whether to keep telling that story and filling me in as the coach. So that's one of the mindset shifts that we might need to reframe or unlearn, getting rid of our mother or father's voice on top of our shoulder.

Garry: 12:52

Long time ago, sister, long time ago.

Clare: 12:56

But even though it was a long time ago, it has stuck. So there are, I've discovered, 83 of those mindsets that have stuck with us that are not particularly useful in coaching. Now I don't want to make them rules, you must do this, you must do that, you should do the other, you should believe this, not that, but I've certainly noticed that if people can make some shifts in those mindsets and let go of those unhelpful mindsets and move towards something different then their coaching and, therefore, the results of their coaching can be exponentially better different.

Garry: 13:57

And I'll just bet one of the ways to do that is with a mentor coach.

Clare: 14:07

Exactly. Yes. So I would contend that mentor coaching should not only be looking at the competencies because the competencies of the skills and we use the PCC markers as the guide for how a coach can show up in order to meet the standards. But if the coach and the mentor coach do not look at the mindset that goes behind the skillset, then the coach might be able to change their behavior for long enough to be able to come up with some recordings that they can submit to the ICF, for example, if they're going for a credential. But if they have not worked on their mindset first, they're going to slip back to old ways as soon as they've got their credential and that's not the point of this whole process. The point is to keep learning, keep growing and not to slip back to those old beliefs.

Garry: 15:29

So how does a coach or a mentor coach help in that process of keeping the new learning in place?

Clare: 15:38

Well, ideally the mentor coach would ask, so what's going on for you when you say X? What is the little voice that's talking to you? And where does that little voice come from and how useful is that little voice these days? How useful is that little voice for you in coaching? How useful is it for the person you are working with? I call them the thinker. So you are getting underneath the surface in order to help the coach to recognize where this belief comes from and then asking them whether they wish to actually adopt a different belief. So to un-learn the one that's getting potentially in the way and relearn a new one because then if they choose to adopt that new belief, then the skills and the competencies will fall into place because it will just make much more sense.

Garry: 16:55

Wow. Wow. Thank you for that explanation and example in a sense. You have me going in my head, one of the things my parents used to say is work hard and you'll get ahead and I always counter in my mind to work smart. But it's interesting how it starts with the old belief. I'm reminding myself. So I've obviously got a key to the mindset change going nope and then that relearning leads me to I'm very good at organizing and with systems so working hard doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense in a way to get something done maybe, but not as a way of living. And how do I work smart? Oh, so there's obviously a system missing here and boom, on off I go. That's all making sense.

Clare: 17:49

Well, and that is one of the mindsets that I discovered was that coaches are still holding onto that voice of try harder, work hard. When actually coaches, if they could let go of that need to work so hard and actually put the onus on the person they're working with to think hard to build their thinking muscles, to enable them to become independent critical thinkers, the coach is doing themselves out of a job, but that is what we should be doing.

Garry: 18:13

Exactly.

Clare: 18:28

So it's a very different mindset in coaching. I really see coaches working way too hard, taking far too much responsibility on their shoulders because that's the mindset that they were taught by their parents or by school. They have to get let it go.

Garry: 18:49

I remember having a coach and she used to send me notes afterwards about our session and of course I never read them, not really. I saw them. One time, because we were also friends but I had contracted her as a coach, I said, I think I actually said why are you doing that? You're working way too hard. And I think she did eventually stop because of course, for us at least, it altered our agreement, which is fine. You're always revising the agreement. I'm going to say an "and" on that is, and if you do that where you work on the, and this isn't the right word of course, but the quality, well, hold on, the safe, sane, sharp areas of your coaching, you'll gain more credibility. Your clients will talk you up more because you're having that much more of an impact. So it's actually along with what you said in the article and what you're saying today. Yeah.

Clare: 20:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Garry: 20:04

Wow .

Clare: 20:05

And one of the beliefs that I wrote about in the article is this one that from...

Garry: 20:15

Marcy? Marica?

Clare: 20:16

Well, I was going to say the other one actually from the Coaches Training Institute around...

Garry: 20:22

Oh right. Naturally creative resource.

Clare: 20:26

And we all spout that one as a belief. Yes. I believe that all of the people I work with are creative, resourceful and whole. But what I actually see in practice in coaching sessions that I observe is a belief that, oh no, they don't know enough so I'll just insert something or I'll ask a leading question that enables them to get to the idea.

Garry: 20:52

Guilty. Guilty.

Clare: 20:54

Cool. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So there is definitely a difference between espoused values and lived values in coaching and we need to question ourselves. If I'm saying that I believe that people are creative, resourceful, and whole, am I really following through on that in the ways that I speak and behave and ask questions and notice things, et cetera, et cetera? Or actually, am I belying that particularly right?

Garry: 21:27

Yeah. When I was re-reading that for today's conversation and hearing it again, I hear the step that I usually find I need to take. Shut up.

Clare: 21:40

Yes.

Garry: 21:40

Because when I hear that in my head, I'm like, oh, nope, this isn't about me this is about them. Wait a minute. You've done the question, whatever the question is, non-leading, and then you just wait and it's like silence.

Clare: 21:56

Yeah. It's the best question. Absolutely golden and yet that's something that people have grown up to believe is awkward. And so as coaches, we really need to get over that mindset that silence is a bad thing. It really is the best question ever.

Garry: 22:19

We have a friend and he is a verbal processor, so I'm torn between, is it verbal processing or can we just have some silence? It is so interesting to watch when you're a coach and I'm fine with silence but to watch people who are just squirming if there isn't something being said by two or more people in a conversation. It's funny. Really funny. Yeah. Well, let's have a little step back into Clare Norman's life.

Clare: 23:03

Okay.

Garry: 23:04

And what have you unlearned yourself as part of your journey of mastery?

Clare: 23:10

Well one of the things that I have been learning, well, unlearning, first. I needed to unlearn what I had been taught in coach training around reflecting back what I had heard in order to show that I was listening. So you would think that's a good thing. I mean, it actually is one of the PCC markers for us to be able to accurately reflect back what we've heard in order to support the client to hear it themselves. But actually more powerful, I have been discovering, is to build in that reflection into my next question to show that I've been listening or that I've heard by integrating their words or their phrase into the next question. So I then don't need to take airspace by reflecting back what I heard because I can do it in that question. So that's one of the things that I've been finding is really, really powerful for getting out of their way and enabling them to get back into the thinking space as quickly as possible.

Garry: 24:42

And still incorporating the reflective action. The reflective process.

Clare: 24:47

Exactly. Exactly .

Garry: 24:48

Wow. Brilliant.

Clare: 24:50

And then another one that I have been unlearning is around emotions. I have learned to lean in much more to emotions, to feel comfortable and confident that the emotions that are there in the room in that moment are useful and that there is wisdom in those emotions.

Garry: 25:27

No, I'm kidding. Yeah.

Clare: 25:29

So I've had to get over this thing that we got taught about the difference between coaching and therapy, and when not to go there because it's therapeutic. Whereas actually I'm feeling more and more comfortable to lean in. I definitely know where my boundary is and where I would be checking in with them about whether a therapeutic intervention or some other intervention is more useful to them at that moment in time than coaching. So I do know where that boundary is but it's much further out than it ever used to be. I notice that a lot in coaches who are at the beginning of their journey of mastery that they are almost scared to lean into that emotion because they're wondering, well, what if it goes too far and I can't contain it back into it's spot?

Garry: 26:47

I laugh because I have no fear whatsoever of going into emotion. So what's going on for you right now?

Clare: 26:56

Yeah, yeah.

Garry: 26:58

It's there anyway. You can't avoid it.

Clare: 27:01

No. And why avoid it because there's so much wisdom in it.

Garry: 27:07

I also don't think we really know now where that line is. I don't think many people reach it, but when the coach is really uncomfortable, I'm guessing that's when they'll know. And if you have a mentor coach and/or a coach supervisor, which you can share that with them and they'll help you on the way. So you've got a support structure. So go crazy.

Clare: 27:35

Exactly. Go crazy.

Garry: 27:35

I can't help it that lately, I actually put it in my agreement conversation when starting coaching is coaching has sometimes been compared to therapy. Sometimes it will feel like it is therapy and it's not. It's coaching. I have one client every time she goes, I'm ready for my therapy session, jokingly, and I'm like, oh, well I'll get off then and let me know when you're ready for coaching. She's a riot. I love my clients. I love what I do. You obviously love what you do. We're running out of time, but I have to say, I am very struck by your, I'm going to say, humility in light of everything that you've accomplished in this area. You're coming at it with wide eyed anxiousness, learning, anticipation of like what's next and fresh on to an MCC and stuff like that. But I just wanted to say, you're just so approachable, lovely, delightful conversation. Thank you so much.

Clare: 28:57

I have enjoyed it too, Garry, this has been a generative and generous conversation, I think.

Garry: 29:05

Oh, thank you. Well, we're going to ask you to be but generous with one more thing. What do you want our audience to do as a result of the article and/or this conversation? Because some people will don't have the article.

Clare: 29:16

Yeah. Oh gosh, there's so many things I'd like to ask them to do. One would be to connect with me on LinkedIn and you'll get much more of this stuff. I post a lot about it.

Garry: 29:31

And that's linkedin.com/in/clare-norman-pcc, which you'll change.

Clare: 29:39

It still says PCC at the moment. Yes.

Garry: 29:42

Oh goodness.

Clare: 29:42

But it, that should still get to me. Definitely.

Garry: 29:45

Okay .

Clare: 29:45

There's a call to action to mentor coaches, first of all, which is please start focusing on mindset, not just skillset as you are working with coaches that you work with to enable them to make a sustainable shift in their competencies not just a shift to get them through the recordings with the idea. And then the call to action to coaches, if you don't already have mentor coaching in your portfolio of learning and development, add it in. Supervision and mentor Coaching, as I said at the beginning, they are, I would say, the highest impact investments we can make in our self-development as a coach.

Garry: 30:45

Where would you suggest that our listeners and readers go to find a mentor coach or a coaching supervisor?

Clare: 30:54

So the ICF website has a listing of mentor coaches, so you can find the listing there of Global Mentor Coaches. I'm not sure if there's a listing for supervisors as well on the global site. I can't quite remember, but I know on the UK site we can tick boxes to say whether we are a supervisor.

Garry: 31:24

Whether you are or not. Yeah. Okay. But offering them. If I were to go look for one, would I find it there? Okay. ICF is a good one, and I'm guessing EMCC would?

Clare: 31:34

Well, the EMCC does not require mentor coaching. They require supervision. So you would be able to find supervisors through the EMCC site. You'd also be able to find supervisors through the Association of Coaching Supervisors.

Garry: 31:52

Right. Yeah. They were, they wrote for the , uh, issue as well. So. Great. Well thank you. Thank you, thank you. And love your advice to your request to mentor coaches as well. That was awesome. And , uh, um, I've already said the best way to connect with you is at LinkedIn, Claire dash , Norman dash pcc , even though she's an MCC or at Claire at claire norman coaching associates.com. And both of those will be put as they say down here below the recording.

Clare: 32:23

Perfect.

Garry: 32:24

Thank you so much.

Clare: 32:25

Thank you, Gary.

Garry: 32:27

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, and , uh, we have it on good research authority that Apple and Spotify seem to be our key ones. That's pretty cool. Uh, don't forget to sign up for your free digital issue of Choice Magazine if you're not a subscriber by going to choice online.com and clicking the signup now button. Okay. Wait for my closing change. I'm Gary Schleifer. Enjoy your journey of mastery.

Clare: 32:55

Beautiful.

Garry: 32:56

Got it. Thanks again, Claire. Have yourself a great day.

Clare: 33:00

Take care .