Beyond the Page Podcast ~ The Convergence of Neuroscience and Coaching: Cultivating Thought Leadership and Transformation

Embark on an enlightening exploration of the human mind with Ann Betz as we unravel the complex ties between neuroscience and professional coaching.

Ann Betz is the co-founder of BEabove Leadership and an international speaker and trainer on the intersection of neuroscience, coaching and human transformation, including BEabove’s flagship program, “Neuroscience, Consciousness and Transformational Coaching”. In the fall of 2023, she launched a new program for coaching.com on the fundamental Neuroscience of Coaching. Ann is the lead author of Integration, the Power of Being Co-Active in Work and Life (John Hunt Publishing, 2015), and a ground-breaking white paper on the neuroscience of the International Coach Federation’s coaching competencies.

This episode promises to dismantle myths and illuminate the truths that inform our understanding of the coaching brain, blending personal anecdotes from our CTI certification days with cutting-edge insights. Ann sheds light on her article in choice Magazine and her work with coaching.com, while we reflect on the growth of neuroscience in coaching and the critical need to identify genuine thought leaders in this space.

Dive into the nuanced discussion of neurolinguistic programming (NLP) where we dissect its contentious scientific standing, yet acknowledge its undervalued contributions to coaching. Traversing through time, we draw connections from the human potential movement and ancient cultures to today's neurological findings. The conversation also scrutinizes the integrity of scientific research, informed by the thought-provoking narrative of "Science Fictions" by Stuart Richie, emphasizing the paramount importance of critical analysis in accepting scientific claims.

In our final segment, we invite you to challenge your perceptions of neuroplasticity and the multifaceted functions of the brain.  Join us for a captivating journey through the cerebral landscape as we link the wonders of neuroscience to the potential for human growth and development.

Watch the full interview by clicking here

Find the full article here: bit.ly/BTP-AB24

Learn more about Ann Betz here.
Learn more about BEabove here

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
 
In this episode, I talk with Ann Betz about his article published in our January 2024 issue.

Transcript

Garry Schleifer: 0:07

Hello everyone and welcome to the choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. I'm Garry Schleifer and I'm obviously thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go beyond the page of articles published in choice Magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content and interviewing the talented minds. I don't know which side of the screen she's on, but one of those people is Ann, and I'm covering stories that make an impact. choice is more than a magazine. For over 21 years, we built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques to add value to their businesses and, more importantly and of course, make a difference and impact our clients.

Garry Schleifer: 1:01

In today's episode, I'm speaking with co-founder of BEabove Leadership, an international speaker and trainer and friend, Ann Betz, who is author of an article in our latest issue "Neuroscience and Coaching: Separating Myth from Reality". Her lead article, we made sure it was lead and there's a reason I'll tell you, is "Coaching and the Brain: Past, Present and Future," and includes a lot of the top myths. So make sure and read that article. A little bit about Ann. She's the co-founder of BE Above Leadership and an international speaker and trainer on the intersection of neuroscience, coaching and human transformation, including BE Above's flagship program, Neuroscience, Consciousness and Transformational Coaching. In the fall of 2023, she launched a new program for coaching. com on the fundamental neuroscience of coaching, and watching that I think that's amazing. Ann is the lead author of "Integration, the Power of Being Co-active in Work and Life, and a groundbreaking white paper on the neuroscience of international coaching federations' coaching competencies. That's a mouthful, by the way. What I really want to say is so Ann and I have known each other since 2002 or three.

Ann Betz: 2:22

I think it was a 2001.

Garry Schleifer: 2:23

It was because I started coaching with CTI and I heard in your interview with Alex of coaching. com that you were and you started coaching around the same time I did. But we joined and went into the CTI certification.

Ann Betz: 2:38

It might have been 2002. It might have been. We might have started whatever.

Garry Schleifer: 2:44

Did we have a name? What were we? The Feathers, we were The Palm Pod.

Ann Betz: 2:48

We were named after trees, and we were The Palm.

Garry Schleifer: 2:50

Why do I still remember that?

Ann Betz: 2:52

We were The P alm Pod.

Garry Schleifer: 2:54

My gosh.

Ann Betz: 2:55

God, I don't remember who led us, but I don't either.

Garry Schleifer: 2:59

Oh no, I remember my leadership pod, but I don't remember my certification pod. And we've been fast and furious friends ever since and talk about intersecting, we kind of go like this. If you're watching the video, we intersect a lot of times and I want to publicly acknowledge and thank you for the support not just the support for developing the idea of this issue. We haven't done a neuroscience in the brain issue for a long time. In fact, there's a kind of myth right there, because I think we called the last one neuroscience and the brain. Boy had things changed and you said it eloquently in there. But before I finish, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for this amazing issue, and so that's why it's a great honor and pleasure to be interviewing you and to have you as be our lead article.

Ann Betz: 3:54

So yeah, thank you. It was absolutely a pleasure to noodle with you around what should be the topics and who are the really credible thought leaders. And there's some amazing, amazing people in this space today who I'm proud to call colleagues and who I really respect and I follow their work. And then there's some people in the space that they're propagating. It's coming to a more crowded space than it was 12 years ago.

Garry Schleifer: 4:24

Well, you know, you bring up a really good point and I was going to ask you this is like so who are the credible leaders? And, better yet, you mentioned teachers. So, who should we be following? I think hold, Ann Betz and Ursula Pottinga for sure.

Ann Betz: 4:41

For sure. Follow us, follow me. I try to stay, as you know, I try to stay as up to speed as is humanly possible, and I want to talk a little bit about why that is so hard, but it's like let's bookmark that, you know. So there's people. So in the intersectional space, what you're looking at is two young professions. You know, you started choice 21 years ago and the coaching field had been around for about 10 years as a distinct field, right?

Garry Schleifer: 5:14

I'd say 1995, right, so six, eight years. Yeah, yeah, sorry, you're in on track.

Ann Betz: 5:19

Somewhere, somewhere in there. Yeah, you know, whenever we've been an actual, you know at the point at which something becomes a field. Well, the neuroscience has been around 60 years and some of the technology is less than some of the really classic technology like brain scanning is less than 30. So we're looking at young professions intersecting and one of the issues around that is that neuroscience has been trying to figure out a lot of other stuff other than coaching.

Garry Schleifer: 5:52

So, exactly If coaching only existed 10 years prior and that's been around for 60 to 80, what were they researching right ?

Ann Betz: 6:00

Well, you know a lot of the early research in neuroscience was around illness and disease and you know, like discovering neuroplasticity and discovering interventions for dementia, things that might prevent dementia. What happens if somebody has a in a part of their brain? I mean even more than that where are things in the brain? What is happening?

Ann Betz: 6:29

Yeah, right, and so then we come along with this other very young profession and the question is what is what about what we're doing? What is that doing in the brain? It's a fairly low level research agenda. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's not a hot research agenda. So that having been said, in the intersectional space, the big person, and a lot of your viewers are going to know, is Richard Boyatsis, because he has really done that intersection of our profession as we understand it. The best way we have to understand it, Garry, is through the ICF competencies and through ICF accreditation. It's not the only thing, but when we talk about coaching I know you deal with this all the time what do people mean by that? It's not just whatever you call it.

Garry Schleifer: 7:19

Like we have some criteria yeah, we do.

Ann Betz: 7:22

Right, and this has been part of the problem and I pointed out in my article. Part of the issue is that people come into this space from the neuroscience doorway thinking I must, I'm going to be a little rude, but I kind of imagine that what they're thinking is I'm a neuroscientist, so I know way more than any little life coach and so therefore, you know, I know more without giving us credit for really how complex this field is to do it well, really do it well. It is not easy, and so they come in thinking they understand coaching and don't really understand it. So all of that is by way of saying Richard understands coaching and the other person who I think is going to start emerging as a name more and more is his big collaborator, who's a man named Anthony Jack, Tony, and I think you have Tony in the edition right.

Garry Schleifer: 8:25

You know what I was just thinking about? That we have him. Yeah, we have Amanda for sure.

Ann Betz: 8:31

Amanda.

Garry Schleifer: 8:32

Right and I think Tony's got his own.

Ann Betz: 8:35

I can't remember whether he got his in on Jack Tony . Whether he's in the edition or not, yes, he is right after your article, page 27.

Garry Schleifer: 8:49

"Intuitive Dualism: How the disconnect between neuroscience and coaching leads to neurohype. End scene.

Ann Betz: 8:57

Cool, All right. So Tony is very credible. Tony is doing really really good work on something called the Default Mode Network, which is absolutely critical for coaching. He calls it the Social Network.

Ann Betz: 9:10

It is a critical part. He works with Richard on that but he is really much more of the expert and I'm hoping we start to see he's got a book in progress around which we need about this very critical network in our brain, and so Tony is someone that I queued that as Richard bless, bless him and love him, but he is getting older.

Garry Schleifer: 9:34

Aren't we all? Thank you.

Ann Betz: 9:36

I mean, I don't know if he's ever going to quit, but I think Tony's kind of a little bit of the heir apparent there and watch, follow him. Amanda very credible, very good thinker. More so. Her work is really around coaching and the body and her great book your Body as your Brain. She is also just a really good thinker, even much more broadly than that, and so I have huge, huge respect. She's one of my go-to people if I need to check something out. Be like what do you think of this?

Garry Schleifer: 10:11

Well, we all need those right. You're my go-to for neuroscience. So seriously when I think of that, I think of you so.

Ann Betz: 10:19

And I will usually try to be honest if I don't know.

Garry Schleifer: 10:23

I can count on that with you.

Ann Betz: 10:26

So those are some of my big ones that I follow. And then there's so that's like the intersectional space, the other spaces in the neuroscience space, right? Like so. Who do we follow who's doing kind of what technically might be called social and effective neuroscience? Who do we follow there where their work is the most directly linked to what we're doing as coaches, leadership people like that, and then I'll talk about the issue with this. But there's a few names that I follow there. Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's doing the best work on emotions and is kind of coming into the coaching space more.

Garry Schleifer: 11:10

I was going to say I hope she does.

Ann Betz: 11:13

She was at. She came to because I invited her a ctually, I was working with the ICF. She came to the ICF Convergent in Prague.

Garry Schleifer: 11:21

Oh ok.

Ann Betz: 11:22

Right and spoke, and the science that's quite a name sounds familiar.

Ann Betz: 11:25

On the science track. So she's someone to follow. I follow a guy named Matthew Lieberman and his wife, Naomi Eisenberg. They've done really good work on stress and social rejection. They're really good. Obviously, Dr. Dan Siegel, of course yeah, you know has been around the coaching space a lot. I will tell you that my challenge with Dan, and I studied with him early on in my career, he was still doing live programs at the time and so I got to study with him for about a year. One of my problems with Dan is you know that old Abraham Maslow quote "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail."

Ann Betz: 12:09

Right, Dan's hammer is mindfulness and it is a particular type of mindfulness called the Wheel of Awareness and that's his hammer and that's going to be the answer to everything. And I haven't found him as curious or as interested in some of the work that we do in coaching. That creates integration. That's his big thing. Wheel of Awareness helps you integrate various parts of yourself. I don't think he's curious about what we are doing eyes wide open in coaching. That has a very similar impact. So I love his work. You know he's a very prolific writer. I'm not saying don't follow him. I just wish he was more curious about what else is happening in the world.

Garry Schleifer: 12:57

Well, get him over to coaching and he'll hone his curiosity skills.

Ann Betz: 13:01

He's been invited and you know he's had connections and he's spoken at coaching things and, you know, maybe he's just really, really committed to this particular way. What I love about coaching, Garry, is I think mindfulness is awesome, but for me, mindfulness is like for the brain. Mindfulness practice is like going to the gym and lifting weights Right, right. You get more able to focus, you get more able to concentrate, you get more able to emotionally regulate. There's all sorts of really good benefits. Coaching says what are you going to do with that?

Ann Betz: 13:40

How are you going to operate on the field? What are you know? So my son was an elite athlete. He played Ultimate Frisbee and he got better when he started going to the gym and lifting weights, but it didn't tell him what to do on the field. He needed a coach for that. Oh, okay. Yeah. So for me, though, those are how the two intersect. They're really two different ways we become effective as human beings and they play different purposes. So, big fan of both. Big fan of on the gym in the field.

Garry Schleifer: 14:14

Especially in the field. Yeah, you know, I want to just finish off this segment by quoting what you said in here. That really puts it into perspective. Let's stop saying that coaching is based on neuroscience. Coaching was created intuitively, not scientifically, and to your point, what we are doing, and will continue to do, is make connections between the two fields. So well said, yeah, like coaching was around long before neuroscience became a part of the conversation.

Ann Betz: 14:44

Absolutely. You know and I've had the privilege if I worked very closely with the Coaching Coactive Training Institute. That's where you and I met. I was their neuroscience consultant for a while. I know Karen and Henry quite well, the original founders. I did not know Laura. She passed away before I came on board but I know them and I've talked with them and I wrote a book with Karen and I've talked with them about the origins of the field and there have been people that have written PhD theses on this. But, you know there's a big influence on the coaching field that came from theater.

Garry Schleifer: 15:18

That was Karen and Harry, Because I remember in leadership, the personality assessment was theater-based assessment that they used. So, I'm a humor, but it's not because I'm funny. My take on the humor is that I'm able to make serious things light when necessary and light things serious when necessary.

Ann Betz: 15:42

You play with energy, and that was Henry's inspiration. That came out of his work with actors in New York, and so there's this improv thing. There's a little bit in the best way, there's a strand of neurolinguistic programming that is valid. There's a whole bunch of bullshit around it, by the way, sorry.

Ann Betz: 16:06

NLP is not neuroscience. And in fact, people have said to me when they're like oh, I've been really interested in neurolinguistic programming so I want to do your neuroscience class. I'm like well, we are not going to be talking about that because, yeah, exactly so much of it.

Garry Schleifer: 16:20

That's interesting. I never connected the wording, I never connected those Neuro yeah, neurolinguistic yeah.

Ann Betz: 16:29

But there are aspects of it. When you so is what people say I want to learn how to you know, do this, I'm like. Go take a decent coaching course. You will learn the legit stuff there because you know there's an aspect of that that comes into the early days. There's an aspect of the human potential movement you know that traces all the way back to yes, I'm sorry, I will say it's Scientology.

Garry Schleifer: 16:52

Yeah, and.

Ann Betz: 16:53

I'm sorry, it's just all in there.

Garry Schleifer: 16:56

Well, even follow like EST went to Landmark Forum. Co-created CTI.

Ann Betz: 17:02

So Laura Whitworth and Thomas Leonard both worked in the accounting department. For what was the? The organization prior to Landmark Forum, EST organization. I always think this is pretty funny that they worked in the accounting department. Yeah, I know, that's weird but there was this technology we all have our past.

Ann Betz: 17:25

We all have our past, but there was this idea of just being present with someone while they communicated without voting. And what do we do as coaches? Exactly that, and that's where we came out of. And the reason I say Scientology is that Werner Erhard, the founder of Landmark, borrowed heavily from Scientology. Well, like they say, there's nothing new, right? What's that?

Garry Schleifer: 17:58

It just goes to say there's nothing new. Right.

Ann Betz: 18:01

You know. Even so, on that note, even the Greeks, that knew about the energy that we might think of as more relational and the energy we might think of as more focused. They understood that human beings processed in that way. There was kind of this Dionysian energy is that the Greeks or the Romans and I can't remember? Um, in Appalonian energy they talked about the, they talked about that. They talked about life flowing between these extremes. You know, we have known how human beings are and what neuroscience does is it says okay here, this helps us understand it a little better. That's why I love it, yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 18:47

Thanks, I love it too. That's why, when we were talking earlier about retirement, it's like how can you? You retire from a job, you don't retire from a vocation.

Ann Betz: 18:57

Oh, I love that.

Garry Schleifer: 18:59

That's great and you don't retire from like a fulfilling life and watching the impact, knowing that you working with one person will affect how many more people that are connected to them. You know, I still remember the first issue of choice and we that's what we had a water droplet, which was actually the earth, and then and then the ripple effect of the water.

Ann Betz: 19:21

Oh, I love

Ann Betz: 19:24

That is the great blessing of what we do as coaches is, you know, I feel like there's this I'm not Jewish, my ex-husband was Jewish and so I learned a lot about Judaism and there's a belief in Judaism that the world was a whole vessel and that at some point it was shattered into all these pieces and that the practice of T'Kan'alom which, as I think it means actually literally heal the world, is all you have to do.

Ann Betz: 19:55

The way that I take it, the way that I take it as a non-Jew, is you just go find the little pieces, you just repeat, you just bring one little piece in at a time. It's all any of us can do, but we need to do it and I think that's what coaching does brings a little piece back into the vessel of the whole. When we can have someone we were talking about fear earlier, you know not just operate out of fear but stand in their greatness, I think that brings a little piece back into the and makes the vessel more whole. So a lot of hope in what we do.

Garry Schleifer: 20:27

So, yeah, how can you return to that exactly? I want to come back to what were we bookmarking again.

Ann Betz: 20:34

Oh, we were bookmarking this piece and you had asked me earlier, like what did I not say in the article?

Garry Schleifer: 20:40

Yeah, exactly this whole series beyond the page is what did, what didn't fit into 1400 words that you just can't wait to tell people about.

Ann Betz: 20:48

I don't think I said this. I don't think I said this very directly in the article. So one of my big books this fall was this really cool book called Science Fictions. Science Fictions with an S. Science Fictions.

Ann Betz: 21:04

Right, and it's guy, by a guy named Stuart Richie, I'm pretty sure, and he talks about, the subtitle is basically exposing, you know, fraud, deceit and hype in science. And it was really, you know, I knew about this, I knew about the issues in science. He makes it really clear. So anybody who's really curious about this. The reason that I mentioned that is that there are a number of reasons not all, and many of them are not ill intent, but there are a number of reasons. It's really hard to know what's accurate and some of it just has to do with you can't replication studies, which is really what we want to look for. We want to say, you know, not just did this one person with a limited population maybe, which is maybe all they had funding to study right, find this result? Did one person find that? Can that using the exact same protocol? Does it replicate? And it's very hard to get replicate. Replication series are not sexy. What's sexy

Ann Betz: 22:22

is the new one, right, boom. Now we know famously and this is one that many people know about, or have they followed this person, Amy Cuddy, Power Positions. You know her original study found, study that she published, if I'm remembering it correctly, found that if you pose for 30 seconds like this put your feet up you know, Power Positions that you actually get a biochemical effect. Right. Oh, is a TED talk well, they've, nobody's been able to, and it's great, and everybody's like getting ready for their interviews by going and standing in the bathroom like that.

Garry Schleifer: 23:05

Well, you know in the green room, in the green room.

Ann Betz: 23:16

I think what she said is your adrenaline went down or your cortisol went down or your testosterone went up. I believe that's what she found. Yeah, now, no one's been able to replicate that. So is it true?

Ann Betz: 23:33

What's that?

Garry Schleifer: 23:33

Is it science or is it fiction?

Ann Betz: 23:38

And then was it because there's a huge amount of benefit academically to have publications. It's of the whole game. Yeah, exactly how many peer? Reviewed publications, can I get out there? And so sometimes it's self deception, sometimes it's outright fraud. There's like tons of examples of outright fraud, and this isn't just in neuroscience, this is in the medical field, this is in economics, it's everywhere. There's lots of controversy happening right now, and sometimes it's just wanting to believe it, and sometimes it could just be an anomalous finding, right?

Garry Schleifer: 24:19

Can make it work again. That recipe worked really well and I've never been able to replicate it.

Ann Betz: 24:29

Exactly like that. You know who knows why. And so this book really and he's in, but was really hard in reading this book was like going, oh my God, I have cited that study and here now he's pulling out. I'll give you here's a y ou want to know a shocker? Here's a shocker for you growth mindset. How many conversations have you had about the importance of a growth mindset?

Garry Schleifer: 24:58

A gazillion.

Ann Betz: 24:59

We just take the Carol Dweck, Growth Mindset, super important makes a huge difference. If you believe you can, if you believe other people can, makes a huge difference. This guy said, if I'm remembering correctly in the book he just mentions it in passing that if you really look at it, see, most of us don't know how to look at statistics, so we don't really know. So all we look at is including me, until I learned to look more deeply. We look at the headline. Well, there's two things statistically significant is can be fairly low. So here's what he said is that the statistical difference between growth mindset and I don't know what the other, what's the other one, fixed mindset is like 1%, makes 1% difference. Wow, that's what the actual research shows, at least, as according to Stuart Richie.

Ann Betz: 25:54

Now I have gone into a deep dive. I'm using this as example. Please yeah, all the growth mindset that is a misspicing off everybody today.

Ann Betz: 26:06

Here's the thing that's statistically significant, that's not bad, it's not wrong, it's not saying it doesn't matter. It's just what he calls out is the millions and millions of dollars that have gone into promoting that as the answer perhaps could have been spent in a way where they would have a greater impact. If we understand that in a classroom, I think it's from the first to the end of the year that having a growth mindset only kind of for 1% of difference. Wow, all of this. What I didn't say in the article is is it's a little bit like what do you even? You know we have to read more deeply and especially those of us who are communicating about it.

Ann Betz: 26:48

We need to check and recheck and get multiple, you know, multiple studies that are pointing in the same direction, because one study, as hot and as sexy as it may be, maybe totally wrong.

Garry Schleifer: 27:09

That at least we carry, got one segment of the world from myth to reality. What's myth, what's reality? And in your article you listed the top few. Thank you, Interesting. And it brings me to, kind of, my final question, and that is you said in there you wrote in towards the end, you said 2020 onwards. Now we're already 2023. What do you think? Like? Well for me, when do you think is the next time we should delve into this again? Three years, two years, five years?

Ann Betz: 27:45

I would say five years.

Garry Schleifer: 27:48

Okay, why?

Ann Betz: 27:51

Because nothing goes that quickly in science.

Ann Betz: 27:57

Okay it doesn't move that quickly because you, because of the need for replication studies, there is a crisis right now. People have been fired out of Harvard for fudging numbers and there's lawsuits going on and all of this stuff. I am hoping that in five years some of this science fiction stuff has settled a little bit, but it may take way longer than that. I am hoping that in five years, five to eight years, things have filtered in. And I think I said, one of the things that I'm encouraged by is when I present a lot, I talk a lot because I like to talk, oh, and I've listened to a lot of them, a lot of them.

Garry Schleifer: 28:41

And they're all so uniquely different. So kudos to you, for it's always worth listening to Ann Betz everybody.

Ann Betz: 28:49

Thank you, I appreciate that. One of the things I'm really encouraged by is that I will ask. You know, I will ask folks what do you know about neuroplasticity? What do you know about right and left hemisphere? What do you know about the triune brain? Those would be some of the big ones, and more and more people. A healthy percentage of people are like you know. We used to believe this, but I'm learning that that isn't right, like we don't have a three layered brain. But you know, we still have people out there teaching it.

Garry Schleifer: 29:26

Yeah well, but you know, and it's it just seemed too easy. You know, you're talking science, you're talking the brain, and the very little amount that anyone might even think about the brain is it's this just a part of a fascinating network. So to say that there's this and the amygdala and all this, so yes, there are areas of the brain that's like we have arms and legs and stuff like that. But how they interact, I mean, just think of when, when people do things like I think it's reflexology and they massage your feet and the nerve endings in your feet are connected to your brain, your heart. There's an old song about that.

Garry Schleifer: 30:21

"The hip bones connected to the.

Ann Betz: 30:21

You know I always think about that. This is connected to the that. You know, it's sort of like assuming that in an organization you know as you have. When you first started choice you did everything.

Garry Schleifer: 30:38

It started with five of us. By the time we launched, there were three, and the day after we launched, there were two, right, and then we went to three, and then we went to me.

Ann Betz: 30:48

Then, then it was you for a while. And so you start out. You do everything. You're the marketing person, you're the, you take out the trash. You know you do everything.

Garry Schleifer: 30:57

I was a customer service person for three years. Well, I wrote procedures, made the calls, yeah.

Ann Betz: 31:06

And editorial and you think about all of that. You're multifunctional right then as you evolve as an organization. You know I was working with Nancy, who was great, and you know she said I. You know, she was managing me for this podcast. And they're different than you have someone else who's a managing editor and you've got different, so you're distributing function. That's how the brain works. You don't just stay in charge of one thing.

Ann Betz: 31:36

Just like an organization. You, as as you grow, you take on different things, although you may continue to be associated with particular areas. Does that work as a metaphor?

Garry Schleifer: 31:49

You know what it really does and you know the word that comes in there too is neuroplasticity, and I was, you know. I gave away customer service, but I brought it back because it wasn't working the way I knew it should. And then I found Kristi and her team and ever since then it's been handled and absolutely magnificently, I hope, if not please call me.

Ann Betz: 32:14

I don't have to work on that and there are different teams connecting with different other teams as things are needed. And that is, you know, our brain has evolved to, to you know, be more complex and different things, do different things and go on without you even realizing like oh my.

Garry Schleifer: 32:34

God, stuff is going on in my organization and all of a sudden I'm like but they're operating in integrity with the organization, the way it was set up, with the values of me and the organization, and you know stuff like that, so that is so much of how we're operating that, you know the prime directive of the brain is conserve energy, keep the body alive.

Ann Betz: 32:56

Lisa Feldman is a riot, by the way, sometimes you know, take her the greatest salt.

Garry Schleifer: 33:04

But she is.

Ann Betz: 33:05

The only reason we have brains is to keep the body alive. That's why we have a brain.

Garry Schleifer: 33:12

Well, which it comes to the point that when something happens in your brain dead, your body go is just on life support.

Ann Betz: 33:19

Yeah, you're just going on your. Yeah, you need to be on life support. The brain is is critical for that, for that function, but the prime directive is conserve energy, and so if we can automate something, we will. We can automate like. I always think about the time that I moved and I was about a mile away from my old house and I was driving home and I was thinking about something else and I found myself almost in the driveway of the old house because I had to make it.

Garry Schleifer: 33:50

Yeah.

Ann Betz: 33:51

And you know we do that. It's why do we do that? To conserve energy.

Garry Schleifer: 33:55

So you know it makes sense.

Ann Betz: 33:57

Like you, I don't want, I don't need to be thinking. If I had to think about everything.

Garry Schleifer: 34:01

Our brains would explode. Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, I'm very much about and, yeah, that's a whole nother, a whole nother path, and we are. I'm going to wrap up today, thank you, thank you. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?

Ann Betz: 34:18

Well, there's a couple of things, so there's, there's things that benefit me.

Garry Schleifer: 34:24

We are happy to support you. And then there's things that like expert in our industry and in this kind of in this domain.

Ann Betz: 34:32

So I'll talk about that in a sec. The thing I would like people to do for themselves, for the profession, is I'd like them to go a layer deeper and not just take things at face value. I'd like them to start questioning more, including questioning me. I had this happen in my coaching. com. I had quoted something, just it was very by the way and it was the whole. It was statistics on body language and how much are we communicating. And somebody called me out on that and said I don't think that's an accurate, you know, statistic that you just shared. And it was like oh my God, you are absolutely right.

Ann Betz: 35:10

I looked a little. I hadn't looked deeply at that for a while and so do that. Call out the experts, call, call us out, call yourselves out. Go deeper, go see if this is solid or not in the science, so that we can be really credible as a profession. And then what I would say is, if you are fascinated and you want to use neuroscience in your coaching and you want to know, if somebody comes in and they're talking about this, what might be might be going on in their brain, we have a fabulous year long program at BE above Leadership and there'll be a link in the show notes that that shows you how to get there. Right now we're enrolling for our spring 2024 pods and you're still within the early bird window, so go take a look and we'll make sure that that's in the show notes. It's a really good high touch. Hands on deep dive into this and I've vetted the research as best I can make it, but it's not in a mix.

Garry Schleifer: 36:15

She's going to real go back and double check.

Ann Betz: 36:18

That's. Yeah, that was. That was something else, and I'm, yeah, that one that caught me out. I'm always glad when it's like only one thing, and then I'm like, okay, I can fix that, it's not everything.

Garry Schleifer: 36:28

You know and to your credit, you're open to the feedback like this isn't 100% and it's like I always say with sales, I'm all it's just one more no, closer to a yes. It's like you've got to keep going and looking and seeing. Okay, is that still accurate? Cause stuff changes, like that 1% story you told about Right the growth mindset story.

Ann Betz: 36:52

Yeah, you know, when I first started speaking about this, I always would think the neuroscience police were going to come in and arrest me. And this beautiful thing happened and I like to believe in the benevolent universe because this beautiful thing happened. Garry, I would. I did a lot of public speaking back pre-COVID. I was out in person and I would be somewhere like Toronto or London and someone would come up to me and say, I'm a coach and I brought my boyfriend and he's a neuroscientist.

Garry Schleifer: 37:20

And I'd be like, oh yeah.

Ann Betz: 37:22

Thank you, and you know what they. What would often happen is they would say love, loved your talk. Here's a little tweak. Here's what we're learning. Here's something that we don't know is you know, but it was never like everything you're saying is totally wrong. It would be like love what you're saying. Think about this, and that is part of how I learned.

Garry Schleifer: 37:47

So neuroscientists are your gremlins.

Ann Betz: 37:51

Neuroscientists are my very helpful.

Garry Schleifer: 37:55

I was just telling a client that the other day we introduced Gremlins Aventuras, whatever they call it now. I like gremlins cause you can get it.

Ann Betz: 38:01

I know I love that, I love that because there was this book Taming Your Gremlins by Richard Carson.

Garry Schleifer: 38:08

Do you know that one of our authors, Tim Brody, co-wrote or was the lead writer in one for kids?

Ann Betz: 38:18

Oh, I love that.

Garry Schleifer: 38:19

Yeah, I love that.

Ann Betz: 38:21

It was a playful way of looking at this. That was actually really helpful and I think they stopped teaching it that way because I think he didn't like them using his language and it was really short-sighted on his part cause he sold a lot of books.

Garry Schleifer: 38:37

And.

Ann Betz: 38:37

I could be wrong about that. That's what I heard, yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 38:40

Well, stay tuned, we'll figure it out, and thank you so much for joining us for this. Beyond the page episode, what's the best way to reach you? Be above leadershipcom. Yeah.

Ann Betz: 38:52

And at leadership. com. If you want to reach me directly, best way is to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I always accept friend requests from coaches and I always decline friend requests from people who want to market.

Garry Schleifer: 39:07

And we're always happy to support you and everything you and Ursula do. So thank you for being a leader in this area, for being in my life I am blessed, thank you. Oh, and it's Thanksgiving. On this day we're recording, although we're I know shouldn't say that, but we did and I am thankful.

Ann Betz: 39:29

Me too, thank you.

Garry Schleifer: 39:32

That's it for this episode of beyond the page. For more episodes, remember to subscribe to your favorite podcast app. If you love what you heard, please tell other coaches. We'd love for them to know more about what's going on our in world through the lens of choice magazine. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue of choice magazine by going to choice- online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thank you, Anne.

Ann Betz: 40:05

Thanks, Garry, it was a pleasure.