Beyond the Page Podcast ~ Mind Mastery Through Coaching: Unleashing Growth with Neuroscience Insights

Unlock the secrets of your mind and catalyze lasting personal growth with Marcia Reynolds, the former ICF president, whose expertise in coaching and neuroscience is nothing short of revolutionary. She collaborates with government agencies, multinational companies, and coaching programs across Asia, the Middle East, Europe, and the Americas. Additionally, she offers her Breakthrough Coaching program online. Marcia has authored five books, including her international bestseller, "Coach the Person, Not the Problem." Her upcoming book, "Breakthrough Coaching," will be available on January 30, 2024.

Marcia holds a doctorate in organizational psychology, along with two master’s degrees in education and communications. She is also a member of the choice Magazine editorial board.

Our conversation ventures deep into the labyrinth of the human brain, examining why bombarding people with facts rarely leads to change. As Marcia guides us through the neural pathways that shape our learning and development, you'll discover how coaching ignites a unique form of transformation that transcends traditional education methods.

Prepare to be astounded by the ripple effects coaching can have on your life's journey. Marcia and I explore how the marriage of coaching and personal discovery fosters not only the commitment to change but also the resilience to embrace imperfection.

Watch the full interview by clicking here

Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/BTPMR24

Learn more about Marcia Reynolds here

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
 
In this episode, I talk with Marcia Reynolds about his article published in our January 2024 issue.

Transcript

Garry Schleifer: 0:08

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go, guess what?, beyond the page of articles published in choice Magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content, interviewing the talented minds behind the articles like Marcia, and uncovering the stories that make an impact.

Garry Schleifer: 0:46

choice is more than a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use, and share coaching tools, tips, and techniques to add value to their businesses and, of course what we all want to do, make a difference with our clients. In today's episode, I'm speaking with former ICF President and coach, Marcia Reynolds, who's the author of an article in our latest issue “Neuroscience and Coaching: Separating myth from reality.” Her article is entitled "The Neuroscience of Sustainable Change ~ How coaching accelerates learning and growth." A little bit about Marcia she is an MCC. She has a, now what's PsyD? A Doctorate in Psychology or Organizational Psychology.

Marcia Reynolds : 1:36

Well, it's a Doctorate in Psychology. The emphasis was on neuro- leadership and organizational psychology, but PsyD means it was a clinical psychology instead of philosophical.

Garry Schleifer: 1:53

Philosophical. Oh, thank you. Well, we continue. Thank you for that clarification. She's an MCC. She was the fifth president of the ICF and is in its circle of distinction for her contributions to the global coaching community. She works with government agencies, multinational companies and coaching programs in Asia, the Middle East, Europe and the Americas. Basically around the world. Every time we talk to her she's been or going somewhere else, and online with her Breakthrough Coaching program. She's published five books, including her international bestseller "Coach the Person, Not the Problem. Her next book, "Breakthrough Coaching," will be available in January 30th, 2024. Marcia holds a Doctorate in Organizational Psychology and two Master's Degrees in Education and Communications. She also serves on the choice Magazine Editorial Board. Thank you. Thank you for all of your service and thank you so much for joining me today.

Marcia Reynolds : 2:51

Well, thanks for asking.

Garry Schleifer: 2:53

Yeah, no, pleasure. And for your article, which I always read them like 30 times for you know, do we include it, proofreading it, and then I finally get to just sit with it and I have to tell you, I'm highlighting and highlighting, highlighting. We could go a million different directions in this one. But a first question I just want to ask you is, I think I kind of know your background in neuroscience, but why did you decide to write for us in this issue?

Marcia Reynolds : 3:24

You know, Garry, one of my greatest values is learning, and so I'm always learning.

Marcia Reynolds : 3:30

So even with a coach the person, it's like, oh, I look at it and there's, oh, I know this now, I know this now, and everything that I learn I want to share, you know. And so when you write a book, right, you really intensely are looking at the latest research and making new connections with information you know, and watching coaches and seeing what they're not doing and all of that that I want to address. And so you know what I find even more so every year, when coaches fully understand what they're doing, what they're attempting to do in terms of, you know, shifting people's perspective but actually changing their mind, the structure, it makes it easier to know how to coach. So it's not this like list of okay, I have to do this and I have to say this and I have to. It's not that. It's what is it we're trying to create here. And when you get that, the shift we're making in the brain, then the understanding of what we're doing, it becomes more clear and more applicable.

Garry Schleifer: 4:47

Yeah, thank you, and clearly in there. So talk about sharing and learning. So when we try to influence people, we give them relevant facts, and in your article, you say this is the least effective way to change someone's mind, which we don't do as coaches. But tell us why that's not as effective as coaching.

Marcia Reynolds : 5:07

Okay. Well just to back up just a little bit, you said the two masters I have. My second masters was actually the late 1980s in adult learning. I kind of like had an accidental career my first job, and I ended up in the training department of this hospital corporation. I went from high tech from there. I wasn't planning on being in training but I had to like scurry and learn how to do it and how do you make this effective. So I got the degree and I kept working on trying to make my teaching effective, you know, and I learned all the stuff about participatory exercises and all the things you do to make learning sustainable. And people would say "I love your classes, they're so much fun. And then they go out and as soon as they were uncomfortable they'd go back to old behavior. And it wasn't until the last day of my last job that somebody sent me this article. It was 1995 and it was Thomas Leonard's Newsweek article "This thing called coaching and I'm like, well, this sounds cool.

Marcia Reynolds : 6:23

So I called them and I actually observed a coaching session. I said there's something different here. There's something else that's going on in terms of learning. So I look at coaching as a learning technology and so I never confuse it with therapy. I signed up for coaching school right then and there. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do this.

Marcia Reynolds : 6:47

I dove deep into not just learning how to coach, but why does this work? Why does this work? I need to understand this, you know. I found emotional intelligence like 1997 and it was integrating emotions and shifts in the brain. When we create emotions, there has to be an opening for learning and often that doesn't feel good. I think I wrote a book about that

Garry Schleifer: 7:17

Yeah, exactly.

Marcia Reynolds : 7:20

You know and then I went to get my Doctorate to understand it even more. That's when I learned we have three memories. Memory is required for learning and each type of the major things we do to teach people, use a different memory. So telling people what to do just uses a short-term memory.

Garry Schleifer: 7:44

Yeah.

Marcia Reynolds : 7:45

Yeah, hear the words.

Garry Schleifer: 7:47

Yeah, sounds good.

Marcia Reynolds : 7:48

Yeah, it's in the cognitive space. I would say in the cognitive stew that gets all mixed up all day. At night you go to sleep and the brain throws out 80 percent of what you heard or read or listened to a podcast.

Garry Schleifer: 8:04

Yeah, right, yeah.

Marcia Reynolds : 8:06

And maybe retain 20 percent. If there was an emotion attached, if there was like a wow, this is awesome, it might remember it. Otherwise, it throws it out. When we try to recall what did that person tell me to do? We're only going to get bits and pieces and put it together in a way that probably they didn't intend.

Marcia Reynolds : 8:31

So, by telling someone what to do, it's least effective because you're only using the cognitive part of the brain, the short-term memory and associations, maybe. So that's why and then the primitive brain, when you tell someone you better do this or else, like most performance systems, well, okay, I better do it. But then I tell you, oh no, you need to change that and you're like I can't. My brain says no, no, no, no, no. So that's not too efficient.

Marcia Reynolds : 9:06

So what I had discovered was that coaching works like creativity. When someone is able to examine their story outside of their head and they start to see it in a different way and they're like, wow, look what I did and what I said and what was the impact. Or, oh my God, why am I doing that? I should do it differently. The emotional reaction to recognizing what we're doing actually starts to move things around in the middle brain and when I start to understand myself better, who I am in this situation and start to see it differently, then I'm making different connections in the middle brain. So that breakthrough, that aha moment, that's the creative insight.

Marcia Reynolds : 10:06

Like you get in the shower when you go oh yeah now I know the answer. So what we're aiming for is the creative insight. That then creates sustainable change in the brain which then leads to sustainable change in behavior. And you can map it to any creative process, if you look at what happens to someone's brain with brain the brain monitor.

Garry Schleifer: 10:36

Well what you wrote about in the article, that study in April 2020, where it is exactly to those points, and then the one that actually you said here the coach approach activated very high activity in the region of the brain associated with creativity.

Marcia Reynolds : 10:56

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Didn't happen when people told them what to do. Didn't happen when they tried to figure it out on their own.

Garry Schleifer: 11:07

Speaking of old reports, I still remember when I first started in coaching and there was a report that said that learning stayed 80% longer if connected with coaching after it was learned.

Marcia Reynolds : 11:19

Yeah, that was the early research. I did a lot of that with the Human Capital Institute.

Garry Schleifer: 11:26

Yeah, exactly. So we're talking about sustainability and you say that coaching is the best way to generate sustainable change. But how does coaching ensure that the changes people make are sustainable over time, like we talked about locking it in and making it change.

Marcia Reynolds : 11:45

Well you know, it does come back to some of our early training, like you were saying, in the early days when we were just understanding this. When people discover for themselves then it's like, oh yeah, I know what to do and they're not just more committed to the action because it's a personal discovery, but they have more confidence. You can see it in their face when you're coaching and they're like, oh yeah, I know what you do and they're like excited to go do it.

Marcia Reynolds : 12:17

Yeah, and so it's the confidence that's gonna lead them to attempt, even if it's not perfect in the first two tries. When it gets a little awkward, they're more committed to the growth and the understanding. And you know, in coaching, you know we'll mention that as well. I've come to ask, if what the client says they're going to do is related to someone else, like have a conversation with someone, if the outcome is dependent on someone else, I always ask the question if it doesn't turn out like you're hoping it will, what will you do? That way, we're already getting a plan B in place.

Marcia Reynolds : 13:09

And they won't feel like a failure, you know, and say, well, this doesn't work, I'm not doing it. Yeah, exactly.

Garry Schleifer: 13:16

Yeah, I mean, it's not one and done. It's an ongoing process. It's like what you were saying in the coaching conversation asking questions but, of course being careful not to be directive in it. It's funny because when I read your article I was gonna say the first question, I was gonna change it up. The first question I ask all the time is why did you write this article? And I thought, oh, I'm gonna change that to what inspired you to write this article? And then I read your article and it was like that's directive. I can't put inspire in there, because I don't know if they were inspired to write it. Maybe someone told them they had to do it.

Garry Schleifer: 14:01

Well, I just want to finish on one thing. You know it's strange that you mentioned confidence, because I'm starting to notice more and more that despite what my clients have asked for coaching for, one of the things they inevitably get out of it is confidence. I just did a closing session with someone and he said coaching with you gave me the confidence. Well, they gave themselves the confidence, but whatever. We'll revel in the glory, we'll take a little bit of it right, but I was just like, isn't that interesting? I worked with you based on what you want to work on and you got confidence out of it It wasn't on the table. It wasn't off the table, but it wasn't one of those things that we just put out there. So thank you for kind of reinforcing that in our conversation and in the article as well.

Marcia Reynolds : 14:56

I always say that coaching gives people both clarity and confidence.

Garry Schleifer: 15:01

I think there's three things. I think they also get choice.

Marcia Reynolds : 15:07

choice, absolutely.

Garry Schleifer: 15:12

For those of you who are listening, I just put up a copy of choice. There we go there ba da bum, as we always say. While we're on the topic of questions, you know \good coaching is powerful questions, but you reintroduced, it's a ongoing conversation, about reflective statements. What's the difference in the impact of reflective statements versus powerful questions?

Marcia Reynolds : 15:35

You know, I've come to think reflective statements are even more powerful than questions. I don't even say powerful questions. The question for me is usually a follow-on after the reflection. Remember what I said, that when we understand what we're doing, and what we're doing is, like that study that you mentioned. When we try to figure things out on our own, it's still stuck in our head and we really can't. We have our own biases and things that are piled on top of whatever might be reality, which we make up anyway. W hat I'm doing is I'm just having you pull out of your head your thoughts, your thinking patterns, so you can see them out here. You cannot do this for yourself. You cannot.

Marcia Reynolds : 16:27

Okay, I don't care how much you think you can coach yourself. If there's emotion attached you can't and what I'm also finding, which is another reason why I had to write this the article and the book, coaching is even more identity based.

Marcia Reynolds : 16:47

Who I am in this situation is even more powerful than what I do.

Marcia Reynolds : 16:52

And so when I help you to see here's the situation as I see it, here's the story I'm telling about it, but here's how I see I fit into this picture. When we start revealing the beliefs and the biases and the shoulds and the hidden desires, I can't say that. When we start to bring all that forward, then I can see that I can be someone else in this situation which will change my behavior and my confidence automatically. S o when I just say so, this is what I hear you saying and what I think the best skill of a coach is to be able to drill down, summarize concisely and directly, to really hear the key things that they're saying, and to be able to feed that back, which requires a great depth of presence. Because people say well, how did you know to ask that? It's like well, I've been working at it a long time, but you know, you just get it.

Marcia Reynolds : 17:57

It just stands out. The key things, the things they say over and over, what's most important to them, what are they most afraid of, and you just feed that back. Here's what I heard you say, and then I may ask a question. You know, how does that relate to what you want? But the question is simple. It's the reflection when they go oh, I said that, oh right, and oftentimes, Garry, it's even the throwaway line.

Marcia Reynolds : 18:23

The well, I want that but you know it's never going to happen. So I've been thinking you know, and say stop for a second.

Garry Schleifer: 18:30

Exactly.

Marcia Reynolds : 18:31

You said it's never going to happen. Do you know you said that? I did? Do I think that? It's the reflection that makes them think about their thinking. And since we are thinking partners, all I want you to do is to think about your thinking. That's it. That's magical. Much more powerful than me telling you what to do.

Garry Schleifer: 18:57

Yeah, exactly, and more impactful when we know it from studies of the brain.

Marcia Reynolds : 19:02

Absolutely.

Garry Schleifer: 19:02

Brilliant, and I want to thank you too for putting in that sidebar in the article about how to help somebody reframe exactly to your point and look at things differently and start to break them out of that routine pattern.

Marcia Reynolds : 19:20

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 19:20

Yeah, you don't know how many times I've had clients, and one I'm thinking in particular, as soon as you said that one about like the throwaway and I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa back it up. And now what she says is busted because she now she knows.

Marcia Reynolds : 19:40

Oh right, and they often laugh yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 19:42

Oh, always, especially when I catch it. I was like, oh, hold on, back it up, and she goes, I thought I could get away with it.

Marcia Reynolds : 19:54

Even the question, Garry, when I just say okay, so define who you are in this situation. You know they may say leader. I say, well, you know, give it an adjective. What kind of leader? How are you showing up? And when they start to recognize it, that also often brings laughter, because they immediately see how they're sabotaging themselves or the situation just by definition of self. Well, I'm the new inexperienced leader. Oh, I get it okay, so that's why you're scared to speak.

Garry Schleifer: 20:23

Yeah, because new and inexperienced people don't have any of their own wisdom or knowledge, or right. It's like.

Marcia Reynolds : 20:29

Yeah, the other things they attach to that.

Marcia Reynolds : 20:33

sitting at this table? Why did they want you in the room?

Garry Schleifer: 20:36

Yeah, exactly so and that is and the sidebar we're we're talking about. It's brilliant. Thank you very helpful. I know I'm going to use that already. Oh my gosh, I could talk to you for hours, but unfortunately, we're running out of time. I would like to know what would you like our audience to do as a result of this article in this conversation?

Marcia Reynolds : 20:55

Well, you know, it's like all teaching in the sense of take this, try it out, practice reflecting. I have to say it because I'm writing a blog post right now on curiosity but for psychology Psychology Today, so I'm not just talking about coaches. But if we were to add just a little bit of curiosity to all of our conversations, try to like what does this person really mean, you know, and to say, okay, so you said you wanted this. Can you tell me what you mean by that? Just adding that to all of our conversations is so much more connecting.

Garry Schleifer: 21:37

You know my three favorite words. Tell me more.

Marcia Reynolds : 21:40

Yeah exactly.

Garry Schleifer: 21:46

It's so easy to be curious if you remember you're not them. What they're saying isn't your lived experience, it's theirs. You need to ask them what do you mean by that? Tell me more. Because of our biases of oh they're an accountant, so of course we know exactly what an accountant does. Are you kidding me?

Marcia Reynolds : 22:10

Well and the other thing, Garry, like in coaching, we work this and then we go back to all of our relationships and people are talking and we immediately go into our head about our own story, you know, and how does that relate to me? It is all about me, you know, and that's so disconnecting and boring actually.

Garry Schleifer: 22:34

Well, and it goes back to your conversation about deep presence.

Marcia Reynolds : 22:38

Yes.

Garry Schleifer: 22:39

You can't. We're human. We're gonna have these things happen. We'll gotta let them go and and then come back to being there with our client and being curious. I'm also guessing you'd like everyone to sign up for a pre copy of "Breakthrough Coaching." Is it available on Amazon?

Marcia Reynolds : 23:00

You know, isn't that an interesting thing you would know about books? It's like, yeah, I want people to go ahead and buy it now because they can. On the other hand, you know there's that, hmm, you know, when do you promote the book, but I want people to have it whenever. Then you get it right away when it's out. So yeah, exactly.

Garry Schleifer: 23:27

So I just got a Kindle. I'm starting to read on Kindle. When it becomes available as a book, is it automatically into a Kindle at the same time?

Marcia Reynolds : 23:35

Oh, it's already. You know, it comes out at the same time.

Garry Schleifer: 23:40

Awesome, I'm gonna go to Amazon and buy it after this call.

Marcia Reynolds : 23:42

The Kindle I have already hit number one new release. I was on and I'm like it's not even out to the end of January. That's how many people are ordering it. That's really cool. The audio version will be available as well.

Garry Schleifer: 23:58

Marcia, you act surprised. You're a leader in the coaching world, in the coaching profession. You have given, given, given and continue to give. We love you.

Marcia Reynolds : 24:22

And just so everyone knows, I'm going to be announcing that all people when they purchase it, there'll be a special thing on my website that they can just say where they bought it from and they'll have a special little bonus. So that'll be for anybody who's purchased it at any time.

Garry Schleifer: 24:38

I'm going after this call now that have my new Kindle. I didn't realize that I would like reading a book on a Kindle, and I've been racing through books now, so loads of fun. Yeah, and I traveled so. No, this is just at bedtime. Yeah, crazy, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for this. Beyond the Page episode, Marcia, what's the best way for people to reach you?

Marcia Reynolds : 25:06

Well, go to my website, www. covisioning. com all one word covisioning, and you know there's a contact page there, but there's all kinds of free things all over the place on the website, so I would say that that would be the best thing. Yeah, well, thank you.

Garry Schleifer: 25:25

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app I know we're pretty highly sought after and downloaded from Apple and Spotify. Yay, and if you love it, tell your friends. If you don't tell me, let's see what we can do about it. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue of choice magazine by going to choice-online. com and clicking the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery. Thank you so much, man. Thank you so much, Marcia.

Marcia Reynolds : 26:00

No, thank you Garry.