Beyond the Page Podcast ~ The Predictive Brain: Leveraging Cognitive Science for Adaptive Decision-Making in Coaching

Unlock the mysteries of your mind as we journey with the esteemed Dr. Irena O'Brien, a leading cognitive neuroscientist, into the fascinating realm of the predictive brain. Discover how our personal history weaves a complex neural database that informs our every decision, for better or worse. Dr. O'Brien artfully elucidates the dual nature of this mental prowess: its remarkable ability to streamline daily life and the occasional need for recalibration to suit our evolving world. Our dialogue uncovers the brain's penchant for swift judgments, laying bare the power and pitfalls of our silent, cerebral oracle.

Amidst our enthralling exchange, Dr. O'Brien champions the transformative art of reframing our thoughts and altering our ingrained expectations. By learning to intercept our instinctive responses, we grant the prefrontal cortex the critical seconds needed to reconsider the amygdala's hasty impulses. We explore practical scenarios where this self-directed neuroplasticity can alter the course of our relationships and our lives. As we close, we reflect on Dr. O'Brien's remarkable research and storytelling skills, inviting listeners to further immerse themselves in neuroscience and the enlightening pathways it reveals for personal development and coaching.

Join us, and let's harness the power of the brain to navigate life with purpose and adaptability.

Watch the full interview by clicking here

Find the full article here: https://bit.ly/BtP-IObrien

Learn more about Irena O'Brien here.

Access Irena's free gift, Ten Neuroscience Strategies

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

In this episode, I talk with Irena O'Brien about her article published in our December 2023 issue.

Transcript

Garry Schleifer: 0:08

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast, Beyond the Page. choice, the magazine of professional coaching, is your go-to source for expert insights and in-depth features from the world of professional coaching. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm thrilled to have you join us today. In each episode, we go, guess what?, beyond the page of articles published in choice Magazine and dive deeper into some of the most recent and relevant topics impacting the world of professional coaching, exploring the content, interviewing the talented minds behind the articles like Irena, I don't know which side I got here, and uncovering the stories that make an impact. choice is more than a magazine. For over 21 years, we've built a community of like-minded people who create, use and share coaching tools, tips and techniques

Garry Schleifer: 1:00

That's why we're all in it. In today's episode, I'm speaking with ognitive neuroscientist I'm going to say Dr. Irena O'Brien to be really official who is the author of an article n our latest issue and I got mine. I got a bulk bunch, but that's what it looks like if you're watching.

Garry Schleifer: 1:17

It's called Neuroscience and Coaching Separating Myth from Reality. Her article is entitled Understanding the Brain Crucial Insights for Coaches. It's on page 34, if you're looking for those of you who are our subscribers, no, there's a tongue twister. A little bit about Dr Ireena O'Brien or I know her, ireena. She's a PhD, a ognitive neuroscientist who's dedicated almost 30 years to the study of psychology and neuroscience. following a successful career as a chartered accountant. She talked about predictive brain. She pursued her passion and earned a PhD in sychology from University to Quebec in Montréal, where she conducted brain imaging and electrophysiological studies. Dr. Ireena founded the Neuroscience School in 2017 and created the certificate program in an applied neuroscience that offers 24 CCEUs with the ICF. There you go. Or goal is to make neuroscience more accessible by providing evidence-based tools and and countering the prevalent misinformation in the media and in the coaching profession.

Garry Schleifer: 2:34

Thank you so much for joining me today, Irena.

Irena O'Brien: 2:37

Well, thank you for inviting me, Garry.

Garry Schleifer: 2:40

Talk about the perfect person countering the prevalent misinformation in the media. I mean, we do call this issue eparating myth from Reality, so normally I would say, well, why did you write this article? while your background for number one not including the chartered accountant, but maybe? And then your goal to counter the prevalent misinformation? So, thank you. hank you, it's a great article. nd, ireena, you talk about the predictive brain. So before we ask questions about that, give us a little bit of a lay of the land. What do you define as the predictive brain?

Irena O'Brien: 3:17

So your brain is built on past experience, right? the brain is plastic, and so it changes with experience, and so your brain, the brain that you have today is a reflection or is built from all of your past experiences, and also the experiences within the womb, an so that's what creates your brain that you have today. And so th it's becoming more and more accepted among neuroscientists that the brain functions as a predictor.

Garry Schleifer: 3:51

As a predicto support, where you're saying love what you said in the article. When confronted with a situation, the brain scans it's database and asks have I seen this before? What did I do? And then using that reference system is incredibly efficient. It allows us to respond quickly to situations.

Irena O'Brien: 4:14

Exactly.

Garry Schleifer: 4:14

Yeah, and it kind of makes sense too, because when we talk about what was it? Fight, flight, and I think there's another one now, freeze. It's predicting a potential danger and reacting to it. Is that correct way to say that?

Irena O'Brien: 4:32

That's exactly what it does. But most of the dangers that we have in our modern life are not real.

Garry Schleifer: 4:39

Exactly.

Irena O'Brien: 4:44

Or tiger in the woods.

Garry Schleifer: 4:46

I know the famous saber tooth tiger that's going to come out of the mall and get you in the parking lot. I love it. That then begs the question so what are the benefits of having a predictive brain?

Irena O'Brien: 5:02

Well, one of the benefits is it enables you to react quickly, right. And so if you do meet that saber tooth tiger, or if you think you might see the tiger, you don't want your brain to start thinking I wonder whether I really see it. Perhaps I don't.

Irena O'Brien: 5:18

So, I'll just stay here and wait until I'm sure that it's a saber tooth tiger or tiger. You don't want to do that. You want to get the heck out of there. Yeah, as fast as you can. So I mean it's great in situations like that of potential danger. It enables us to make fast responses. So you wouldn't be able to drive without a predictive brain. You wouldn't be able to play really team sports or a lot of sports without a predictive brain. Another benefit are routines and habits. R outines and habits make our life easier because imagine if every morning you got up and you had to start to think, okay, what am I going to wear today? And you go to your closet every morning to choose what you're going to wear. And the same with breakfast. Most people kind of have the same kind of things that they put on in the morning and they eat the same kind of breakfast, and it makes our life easier.

Garry Schleifer: 6:20

It does. But you were just describing my morning. What am I going to wear? What am I going to eat? Don't get me wrong. There are days when I do. But, oh my goodness, when you mentioned driving, I'm like you know partially, I imagine it doesn't totally explain that sometimes you're driving a routine drive and, like my mom lives two hours east of Toronto here and so I come across this I would call the 401. You know it but for our listeners, it's this inner freeway and all of a sudden I'll be like halfway here, I'll be like I don't remember passing that usual exit that I know, or you know, those visual reminders that you're on the way. Is that predictive or is that just a routine? What's the brain doing there?

Irena O'Brien: 7:13

Well, it's the same thing. If you drive that route often, right, then your brain will predict that. I mean, it's happened to me where I have driven to my son's school on a Saturday morning when I meant to go somewhere else.

Garry Schleifer: 7:31

Oh, totally. So routine

Irena O'Brien: 7:36

And that is the predictive brain.

Garry Schleifer: 7:38

Yeah.

Irena O'Brien: 7:39

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 7:41

Wow, that's cool. Well, we talked about the benefits of having it. It makes life easier, right, mornings getting started. So just a quick aside about the morning thing. Because you could be talking about like absolutely everything. You just can't get started if you have to choose and choose and choose and choose every day, although that becomes predictive, I guess. But yeah, crazy, anyway, that's down to 10.

Irena O'Brien: 8:06

If we had to choose, make these big decisions every day. I mean, decisions are energy draining

Irena O'Brien: 8:17

o having the predictive brain and creating routines and habits uses less energy because you don't have to think about it. So like when you're going to school and sitting, you kno people sit in the same place all the time, right, when you're going to some other kind of event, a talk, people usually si you know. If it's a couple of days long, people sit in the same place and it' it's for the same reason. Yeah, it seems less energy and it is the predictive brain.

Garry Schleifer: 8:52

Yeah well, let's flip it on its side. Those are the benefits. What are the drawbacks of having a predictive brain?

Irena O'Brien: 9:00

So some of the drawbacks are that it can lead us to make quick responses that we didn't intend to or that we didn't want to. So emotional responses are really big ones that come to mind, so knee jerk reactions.

Garry Schleifer: 9:17

Okay.

Irena O'Brien: 9:19

But is that the best emotional response in the circumstances? It's not always the best emotional response, but your brain will predict that response based on your introceptive sensation. So that is, sensations from within your body that you're not even aware of and then sensations from outside the body that, and you might not even be aware of all of those either, like a turn of the head, the eyes dilating, like someone else's eyes dilating, in that you might not even know, and then it just spews out an emotional reaction because that's what it's always done in those similar circumstances with those similar sensations.

Garry Schleifer: 10:01

Wow. When I was rereading your article, one of the things that came to mind, oh where was it, under the section of communication, you said communication, for example, is crucial, but our brains do not make communication easy. That's because we hear what we expect hear, but there's a way to override it. It reminds me of a colleague from years gone by and it drove me crazy because she would finish your sentences and it's like, can I finish my own sentence, please? It's one thing to have it in your head, right and go oh, I know what Irena is going to say next, right, because it's a pattern, right, or it's a predictive, but please, people, don't put it all out.

Irena O'Brien: 10:56

Yeah, I mean communication is a problem or poor communication is a real problem. Right people, exactly, they don't listen well, and that's because they're just letting their predictive brains. People don't listen.

Garry Schleifer: 11:14

Huh.

Irena O'Brien: 11:17

Oh you got me.

Garry Schleifer: 11:20

I told you this is a light conversation. That's true because you're from what I'm reading. Your predictive brain is already steps ahead, so it's not listening to what's actually being said, it's predicting what it expects to be to be heard.

Irena O'Brien: 11:36

Unless you're really aware, unless you make an effort to listen well, but if you're not making that effort then the brain will predict.

Garry Schleifer: 11:49

Well, so okay let's deviate slightly from that. Coaches are trained to be good listeners. I'm going to say great, good, add the adjective you like, but we're trained listeners. How does this inform the coach on their listening skills and on their coaching and coaching their clients?

Irena O'Brien: 12:16

For the coach, they might want to pay a bit more attention and see are they really listening to what the client is saying or are they hearing what they expect to hear? But when it comes to the client, I think that that is a huge learning for the client, because people don't know that. They don't know that they're not listening to what people are saying, and so that causes a problem with relationships.

Garry Schleifer: 12:46

And are you suggesting that this becomes an education moment? I know we do those sometimes.

Irena O'Brien: 12:53

I think with neuroscience, a lot of it, are education moments. So in my experience with my students, many of them say that when they explain to their clients how the brain works, they go, "oh so that's what, so that's what's happening, and they're more receptive to the change because now it makes sense. And this is especially with clients who are in technical fields, like accountants, for example, and engineers. They really like to know how the brain works in a particular situation.

Garry Schleifer: 13:35

Wow, that's pretty cool, yeah. So I mean I'm learning a lot and I hope our listeners and readers are learning a lot about neuroscience and some of the myths. There's been so many advances and so much research and I just have the sense it's just the tip of the iceberg really, because it's such a complex network, the brain, the body. Although, we can say the word network now because computers have kind of also educated us on what networks are and you know things like that.

Irena O'Brien: 14:06

But you know what I think? I believe that if you accept that the brain is a prediction machine that is almost the only thing that you need to know. It can change your life. It can change your coaching completely. And so if you explain to the client that the brain is a prediction machine, and that, oh, and it's all based on past experience so no wonder I had this reaction, or I made this decision right because that's what my brain knew. But now I can start changing that, and so you can help them take away the shame and the guilt.

Garry Schleifer: 14:50

Thank you. So that's what I like to hear. These kind of tips for coaches is to just stop and say did you know that your brain is predictive based on past experiences and behaviors, and if we want to change something, we need to notice those and make a decision to change them, right? Is that what you're saying?

Irena O'Brien: 15:12

Exactly, yeah, and you can start changing. I mean sometimes, if you wish, you like kind of a knee jerk reaction, but you can go back and change it. I mean in the sense that next time, if you're more aware, you might be able to stop yourself. And then, as you do that, you'll become better and better at it and hopefully it will become more automatic.

Garry Schleifer: 15:41

Yeah, wow, I hope so.

Irena O'Brien: 15:42

Because you're changing. Tomorrow, today's experience is your past experience.

Garry Schleifer: 15:50

Or tomorrow, exactly. Yeah. To a very simple point, instead of waiting till tomorrow, I can go to pick out my clothes today and set them aside so tomorrow morning, when I'm less functioning before my coffee and getting dressed, I can just go through a predictive routine, but I can change it because now I know that it's taking my energy. Oh, so informative, so informative, thank you. So what are your favorite strategies to challenge your predictive brain patterns?

Irena O'Brien: 16:25

Well, one thing about the predictive brain to, before I address that, is that I did write in the article that it can predict you right into a straight jacket. If you're not aware that you are doing the same things over and over again without thinking about is this really the way I want my life to go right, to proceed? So, first thing is it requires some self awareness, and I think that that is the main job of coaches is to help clients develop self awareness, because there are many that don't have it.

Garry Schleifer: 16:59

My favorite saying when I start with clients is, so there's usually there's a conversation about goals, that's about forward the action, deepening the learning and evoking awareness.

Irena O'Brien: 17:11

Yeah, yeah. So awareness and then compassion for yourself that you had this response, because that was your past experience, so it makes sense that you would have this response. But now you can start to change it.

Irena O'Brien: 17:31

The other thing I like too is a time delay. So wait before you make a response, depending on what it is, rather than doing these knee jerk reactions which usually don't serve you.

Garry Schleifer: 17:48

They are usually reactionary.

Irena O'Brien: 18:00

So wait the 10 seconds or however long it takes. So there's something interesting that happens with that is, especially like a fear and anger based knee jerk reaction. So that information goes to the amygdala first and we know that the amygdala processes emotion, especially and fear and anger and anxiety. But then it also goes to the prefrontal cortex. But it gets to the prefrontal cortex later than it does to the amygdala. So if you wait the 10 seconds or however long you need to for it to reach the prefrontal cortex, the prefrontal cortex can help you put a damper on the amygdala reaction. So that's the reason for waiting. Reframing is such a powerful tool. So an example.

Garry Schleifer: 18:53

I got that you were pausing.

Irena O'Brien: 18:56

Yeah. So an example, like when I was working on my PhD at university, I passed a friend of my daughters in the hall and I didn't know I'd passed him. She told me later that he said that I had ignored him. Like I knew him well. Well, you see, that was his knee jerk reaction, but I hadn't ignored him and so he could have reframed it in the sense of well, I was with other people and I was talking and I didn't notice him. I might not have been wearing my glasses, so I didn't see him. I might have been deep in thought and just didn't notice going about him, right, and so that's the power of reframing.

Garry Schleifer: 19:41

Yeah, or you're just in a pattern. This is your go to class pattern or go to wherever pattern, and you just you were like in, I can totally picture it. Yes, reframing is very helpful.

Irena O'Brien: 19:55

Yeah, it comes back over and over again as an antidote, as a very useful tool.

Garry Schleifer: 20:00

Yeah, you know, it brings to mind when we have conversations about, when we see somebody and they're like, oh, they're so pretentious. I think I'm in the reframing mode all the time. It's like, well, maybe they're just shy, maybe they're an introvert, you know, now I'm going to add maybe they were deep in thought or they didn't have their glasses on, right? I'm going to add that to the conversation, but I'm always one to give people the benefit of the doubt and I think it's reframing. So thanks for making my day on that one.

Irena O'Brien: 20:33

Yeah, we have instant reactions to people. They are not always right.

Garry Schleifer: 20:38

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and nor are we. I don't know if this plays in this conversation, but it's been coming up for me a lot lately is not being adamant. I made a decision about 15 or 20 years ago to stop saying it that's just what it was and now it's kind of like, well, I think they were there, or I think that's what happened, or I think that's where I put it, and it just it just takes so much pressure off, trying to hold on to being right about something, so I've, I've reframed it as I no longer am adamant about something.

Garry Schleifer: 21:21

Maybe it happened that way.

Irena O'Brien: 21:24

So you've changed your past experience.

Garry Schleifer: 21:28

Right. Oh, thank you and you said it. Here's another one repetition that works well. I also said about 20 years ago I'm going to be better at remembering names. I'll tell you, I'm practicing tools, like you know, word association, saying it three times. If it's at the gym, I write it in my gym workbook. You know stuff like that. I'll go up to people and go Irena, right? and they will go, yes, just so that I can be assured that I've got the right name. And it's become a fun game and I no longer hide in the world of I'm not good at remembering names, which is what 99% of the population say because they are predicting that from the past that they are not good at remembering names.

Irena O'Brien: 22:25

Right, and to change your experience today, it's not gonna happen by accident. If you want it to change in the way that you want it to change, you have to be deliberate, a bit like you were with learning people's names.

Garry Schleifer: 22:37

Yeah, aware and deliberate. The fact you made early about awareness. You have to be aware that you're in a predictive pattern and almost listen to yourself saying I'm not good at remembering names. That's a lazy person's way out, folks.

Irena O'Brien: 22:54

A lot of people say, oh, it's just the way I am.

Garry Schleifer: 22:57

Right, I'm good at predicting the way I am, and that's just the way I am, yeah.

Irena O'Brien: 23:05

Well, I mean, that is the way you are today. That doesn't mean you have to be that way tomorrow.

Garry Schleifer: 23:09

Thanks, and there's a great conversation with a client when you're coaching, right? Brings up the one thing that my dad always used to say, and that was to talk about willpower. Where does it leave willpower?

Irena O'Brien: 23:26

Sorry, you mean free will.

Garry Schleifer: 23:31

My dad used to say willpower. Like you can make the change if you really want to, but if you want to talk about free will.

Irena O'Brien: 23:47

In that sense it is the same thing. You can make the change that you want to change. So where does that leave a willpower? So Dr. Robert Sapolsky, he makes a compelling claim that we don't have willpower and that's because it's not just the predictive, it's the predictive brain, but also what we do now is based on what happened to us, like a minute ago, a few seconds ago, or a minute ago, a week ago, what happened early in our childhood. There's epigenetics, so what happened in our parents' lifetime, and going further back in the ancestors. So it's not that we're programmed, it's just that all of that culminates in that one second before, let's say before you make a decision. So it also depends on your hormone levels and it depends, you know a whole lot of things. And his thesis is that there is no room in biology for willpower. There's just no room left.

Irena O'Brien: 24:51

So an example there's a series of famous experiments or famous in neuroscience, the Libet experiences, and what they had people do was watch a hand go around a clock and whenever they wanted to, they would stop the clock. And then they would stop the clock and say what time was it that they stopped the clock? They were also measuring their brain waves and what they found was that the brain responded about 500 milliseconds, so half a second before they were even aware that they wanted to make the decision to stop the clock. So this study was 40 years ago and it's been replicated over and over and over again, using different paradigms, using different experimental methods, and the results are always the same. Your brain decides before you are even aware that you're making that decision.

Garry Schleifer: 25:57

Wow, talk about predictive. Supportive research for the predictive brain.

Irena O'Brien: 26:05

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer: 26:06

Wow.

Irena O'Brien: 26:08

And so, in effect, he says that we live in the illusion of free will. You know the predictive brain researchers that I referenced, they say the same thing, that we live in an illusion that our brain has created.

Garry Schleifer: 26:30

Crazy.

Garry Schleifer: 26:45

We'll deal with that in another article.

Irena O'Brien: 26:47

Okay, let's do that in it article, and philosophical what's not really the lighter Right. They'e both sides to that story, but I tend to. He makes a really compelling argument that we don't have, because everything is based on our biology, and biology I'm including the brain.

Garry Schleifer: 27:07

Yeah.

Irena O'Brien: 27:09

There is no some kind of free will or thoughts that are outside of our biology. They're all within our biology or created by our biology.

Garry Schleifer: 27:19

Wow, amazing, the body is so freaking amazing, it's fascinating. I know and it's going to keep us fascinated for years to come his been an amazing conversation and great article. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?

Irena O'Brien: 27:40

They can go to my website, neuroscience school. com. I have lots of blog posts on there, so I have a lot of articles o we expect to hear. We see what we expect to hear that we live hey of our lives in the unconscious. hey can get my e booklet from there also. And then watch out, for I'm going to be hosting a podcast and I'm hoping that my first three episodes will be out by the end of February.

Garry Schleifer: 28:17

Awesome. In the new year Great Look forward to it and for our listeners and readers Irs awesome. She does a lot of great research and she writes really well. You can tell that from the article as well. I aena. Thank you so much for joining us for this beyond the page episode. I'm guessing we can reach you through the neuroscience school. com website.

Irena O'Brien: 28:41

Yes so neuroscience school. com.

Garry Schleifer: 28:45

Thank you, and that's it for this episode of beyond the page. For more episodes, subscribe to your favorite podcast app, as you did to get here, predictive. If you're not a subscriber, you can sign up for your free digital issue of choice magazine by going to choice dash onlinecom and clicking the sign up now button.

Irena O'Brien: 29:08

I'm Garry Schleifer.

Garry Schleifer: 29:09

Enjoy the Ir of mastery. Thanks again,