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Episode 159: Trust, Coaching, and the Line We Walk with guests, Sukari Pinnock Fitts & Amber Mayes

• Garry Schleifer

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When language gets policed, coaching gets harder—and trust is the first casualty. We sit down with leadership coaches and authors Amber Mays and Sukari Pinnock Fitts to unpack what happens when executive orders and corporate policies restrict DEI conversations, and why that “muting effect” changes how clients show up, how coaches contract, and how integrity is tested in the room. Their ongoing survey reveals the lived reality: sponsors banning words like woman, Black, or transgender; coaches torn between revenue and values; clients covering core parts of identity to stay safe.

We trace the deeper patterns driving these shifts—fear, zero-sum thinking, and the belief that inclusion takes something away from those in power. Amber and Sukari bring decades of global DEI and leadership experience to show how cultural intelligence, identity transparency, and brave conversations actually fuel performance and belonging. They challenge us to reframe “confidentiality as loophole” and instead elevate ethical contracting: clarify roles with sponsors and clients, interrogate who set the restrictions and why, and co-create agreements that keep the space safe and brave without breaking your word.

You’ll leave with practical steps you can use today: prepare values-based red lines, negotiate language with clarity, document expectations up front, and revisit your ICF or EMCC code of ethics to ensure your practice aligns with your promises. Coaching with DEIAB in mind isn’t a niche—it’s simply good coaching. If the policy narrows the conversation, let your courage, clarity, and craft widen it so trust can do the work it’s meant to do.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a coach who needs it, and leave a review so more practitioners can find these tools.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Sukari Pinnock here.

Learn more about Amber Mayes here.

Sukari and Amber have gracious provided our audience a 15% discount on the earlybird fee for November workshop. 

Go to www.fifthdomaincoaching.com and use code: choice to receive the discount. 

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with these brilliant authors behind this one, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and of course, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Choice is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive into the podcast.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with leadership coaches Amber Mays and Sukari Pinock- Fitz, who are the authors of an article in our latest issue, "Trust. Why is it intrinsic to coaching?" Their article is entitled "When Trust is Compromised". A little bit about the authors. Amber holds an MSOD and an MCLC, is a strategic leadership coach, author and speaker with 25 years of experience coaching and organizational consulting. Specializing in helping marginalized leaders navigate biased systems and own their authentic voices. She holds degrees from Harvard and American University, plus multiple coaching certifications. Co-founder of Fifth Domain Coaching, Amber trains professionals in inclusive, equitable coaching.

Garry Schleifer:

Sukhari also holds an MSOD. She's a PCC like me. She's a cis woman using the pronouns she, her, and they, a member of the African Diasporia. I'm sorry, did I pronounce that correctly? Diasporia?

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Diaspora.

Garry Schleifer:

Diaspora. I knew it was wrong. She is a heterosexual baby boomer living with a hidden disability and some degree of socioeconomic privilege as a U.S. national. She has no religious affiliation, believing strongly that the universe provides. She's the daughter of a Jamaican immigrant father and South Carolinian mother, and was raised with one sibling in a working-class, multiracial neighborhood in Los Angeles. Now residing on the unceded tribal lands of the Nakachunk Anacostan. Sukari has been developing leaders in the U.S. abroad for over 30 years.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, thank you both for joining me today. I'm learning all kinds of things just in reading your bios. I do want to say before we get into this, I want to mention to our viewers and listeners that your article ended up in our kaleidoscope column. And it's a column that we started actually, Sakari, after the 2019 ACTO conference, Association for Coach Training Organizations Conference in Victoria, BC. And we wanted to make that a place for the voice of coaches to speak about DEI issues. So we've maintained that since then, and I thank you very much for your contribution for our column.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Well, we thank you for making a place in the magazine every time you publish for something to do with DEIB. So we're very grateful.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, thank you. I've wrote in in that issue, well, in most issues, I write about the impact that that conference had on me and the change in my life. So, yay, thank you. Now, what inspired the two of you to get together to do this? How do you know each other? Like I'm reading. The only thing I saw in common was the pronouns and the MSOD.

Amber Mayesr :

Good investigative work, yes. So we actually, gosh, Sukari, we met in NTL National Training Institute for Applied Behavioral Sciences years and years ago and we were also a part of a couple of women's groups together and we just clicked as people, we adore each other, but we also had background in the work that we do and also common interest in serving coaches who at the time we felt were underserved because you know not every uh coach platform, coach training organization does integrate issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion, accessibility and belonging. And so at that time it was something that we felt we really needed to bring to the coaching field. And from there, we started doing some writing and some coursework and conference presentations, and here we are seven years later. I'm not sure how long.

Garry Schleifer:

I was gonna just say, how long has this been? So seven, seven years

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Since 2016. Actually, it's closer to 10 years now.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh my gosh, let's go with nine, yeah, Amber. Wow, yeah, time flies when you're having fun, right?

Amber Mayesr :

It does.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, I'm so glad you did. The article is fabulous. Let's get a little bit of a lay of the land for those that didn't read the article yet. So, pro whatever, a little bit more US centric because of what's going on and the ripple effect on the rest of the world. What are your feelings now about how DEI is landing in organizations and in coaching just in general, as a result of the executive orders that we read about and read about?

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Well, I would have to say that if anything, coaches are feeling more impact as organizations have been trying to either walk a line without just acquiescing to what the executive orders are asking a lot of companies to do. We were concerned because it's not just in the federal sector that these executive orders are impacting, they are also impacting a lot of large organizations that heretofore had been committed or allegedly committed to DEIAB culture in their organizations. And so we've got a survey running now for coaches to just kind of tell us a little bit about, you know, how their practice is being impacted as a result of these executive orders and what we're hearing back, not from all the coaches, but from a significant percentage of those who have taken the survey so far. You know, they're saying things to us like, well, the largest client I had last year, you know, has given me a new contract this year that says I'm not able to really coach using any of these terms. Woman, black, transgender, pronouns and you they want to keep them on as as coaches, and the coaches need these clients, you know. They represent a good deal of revenue producing work and so as Amber and I were talking about this, it became pretty clear that at least here in the US, and we also coach, you know, globally, and we have have relationship with coaches who are global, who are also saying they feel the ripple effects of this kind of chill around DEI. Let me stop there and ask you to finish up, Amber.

Amber Mayesr :

Actually, you'll see in the article there are some direct quotes from a survey that we're still running asking coaches specifically what's been the impact of the executive orders. And you know, the thing that struck me the most was one quote that where a coach said it's had a muting effect on being able to address issues of DEI in the coach relationship. And so, you know, one of the things, and if you read the article, you'll see some suggestions that we have, but we've been really thinking about, you know, what is the impact on folks who are going to coaching knowing that the environment they're in has muted DEI or explicitly said you can't talk about it. How are these coaching clients showing up in the coaching space? Are they hesitant to share aspects of their experience based on identity? Are they feeling that muting effect? And what's our responsibility as coaches to both contract well in the beginning around what we can and can't talk about, but also to let our clients know that this is a space where you can bring all parts of yourself as you are ready, willing, and able to do. So that was the part about the survey that I that struck me the most and we're still investigating.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, yeah, as long as the administration is going. Okay, so you introduced the concept of covering. How does that apply in this part of our conversation?

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Well, for clients who are members of marginalized communities, if they're getting a message from their organization, and sometimes the organization is the sponsor, you know, of the coaching initiative. So, you know, if they're getting these messages that for whatever reason there isn't something about the aspect of who they are that not welcomed, perhaps at risk, then the tendency of the coachee is to downplay or kind of cover that aspect of who they are, just kind of stay away from it. There's a lot of reasons people cover. Usually it's to protect themselves in the workplace, to not stand o ut, to kind of fly under the radar. And if they know that the coach that they previously may have been working with and had really open conversations with has now signed a contract saying that there's certain topics or aspects of who they are that shouldn't be talked about, then the likelihood is they're not going to bring it to the coaching conversation.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Well, okay, but we all know that the conversations between a client and a coach are confidential. Are you saying that that's no longer the case? Like they can't speak about what they want to without fear, or is the fear just in general what if someone finds out that I'm talking about it?

Amber Mayesr :

It's a really good question, Garry. I mean, I also want to add that this concept of covering did not just come about because of executive orders. This is something that we have been addressing in our work since the beginning. And it really comes down to how do I know as a client that this is a space where I can bring all my identities? As an aside, you heard our bios in the beginning. Somehow you got more my professional bio without my identities included. But Sukari was really sharing so many aspects of who she is, which is an intervention with our clients. When they see that we're bringing our identities into the coaching space, it invites them to be able to do the same. So a lot of our work is how do we create the environment where folks really know that this is something we can talk about? Now, confidentiality piece is an interesting one because we have had people say, well, you know, if the client sponsor says we can't talk about it, well, I'm just gonna talk about it anyway, because the coaching conversations are, they're confidential. And so, you know, for me that really comes down to, well, this is a very extreme example, but if I commit a crime and nobody's there to see it, did it happen kind of thing. So for me, it's an integrity issue. It's really about what have you explicitly contracted about? And are often also eroding trust by going against something you've explicitly said you wouldn't do? Our coaching clients are seeing us and our behavior. So if you've decided you're gonna keep this a secret, you know, what else does that about?

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, great angle.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Yeah, and to follow up on that? I'm sorry, just one quick follow-up. And so this whole question, the article is really about the ethical dilemmas that coaches may find themselves in as they're trying to navigate this new terrain, because you know, if I contract with you directly, Garry, and not through an organization, we're gonna have a client coach agreement that says how we're gonna work together. That's gonna be pretty clear. But if you're like one of my major organizations that provides, I don't know, 10 to 12 coaching clients through the year, and I have signed this new contract that says I will not engage in discussions and then I go back and I say, well, it's a confidential conversation, how will they know? Then it really kind of flips the ethical coin on the other side. So now it's not a question of whether or not you're providing the space your client needs to really talk about the things that are important to them. It's are you being unethical because you've signed an agreement saying you will not do something? And to Amber's point, you know, just because saw you rob the store doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do it.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah okay, so I'm gonna tip this on its head a little bit. This whole stuff to what end? So I'm a white man of privilege. Is this all to have people like me gain power? Like what's it all about? Is it merely one maniac's desire to reverse things back to the 50s like we hear people talk about? Go ahead.

Amber Mayesr :

You're going there, aren't you? I appreciate it. We like it about it.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, like if we don't talk about it, it won't get talked about, right?

Amber Mayesr :

Absolutely, yeah. I think it's so many different things at once. And I think we try to simplify things, right? It would be it would be much easier to say it's one, you know, person who is a bad apple or evil, let's get rid of them. And what we have found over the years, especially because Sukari and I have been doing DEI AB work for decades, is there there have been threads of people who not understanding the work, not understanding that inclusion and equity is really for all people to be able to have access and equal opportunity, feeling that they are losing power, that they are losing access, that you know, you mention yourself as a white man of privilege, not having the construct of understanding the systemic dynamics at play, it can feel to a lot of individuals like things are turning against them versus like the playing field has been like this and the work is to do this, right? So then it feels like it's coming against them. So I know in my work for a long time, I've been tracking kind of fear building in folks that really don't get it and or get it and just want to hold on to what they have, the advantages that they have. So I'll pause. There's so much to say about this. What would you add, Sakari?

Garry Schleifer:

Sakari's bursting at the seams on this one, I can tell.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

It is the element of fear, right? So if I think about everything in terms of it being a zero-sum game, then yes, I am always in competition with the other, whoever the other may be. The other may be the women in the organization, it may be people who are younger in the organization, it may be people who have a different racialized identity in the organization, but I'm always thinking that I have to be competing as opposed to understanding that we are stronger as a nation, as an organization, as a team. We are stronger together. Our diversity is really what makes this country great. It is why we are leading in a global, well, have been leading in a global sphere, you know, where so many people say, well, yes, uh Sukhai, what you're talking about is very US-centric. Because we have been doing this diversity work for a long time now in this country. We have been kind of poking the bear around these issues uh for decades. And as a result, we've had an opportunity to do a lot of research, that we've been able to learn a lot about cultural intelligence, not just emotional intelligence. We've been able to understand that when we are able to have conversations that allow us to resonate with what the other person is saying, as opposed to get into a debate over who's right and who's wrong, then we can usually find a way forward. But we have to be willing to be in the conversations. So this notion of erasing identity, and let's just have everybody be part of the same big amalgamum of humanity does not serve. It doesn't serve anyone because I have to differentiate before I can join. Before I can join a group, before I can belong, I have to feel that I am able to differentiate. That is true for all human beings, not just people in marginalized identities.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Amber Mayesr :

Well, and I just want to add that our work is global. So even though this article was very focused on the impact with the US executive orders, this concept of us and them and othering and all that's global, right? Like we're in this work. Sometimes it feels like we're artificially separating ourselves because we're more global than ever. We impact each other, it's just the way it is. So to have this be about humanity, about us being able to come together to both talk about differences and talk about unity and inclusion and humanity and universal aspects of that. That's the work. And I think that's global.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. No. Well, and truly, because that was what I was gonna get into next is what's the ripple effect of these orders in the US on other countries in the world, right? And I know for a fact, and I think I spoke about this at the ICF Converge a couple of years ago, at the impact of the first administration with the 45th president, and it impacted Canada in that the hate rose quickly. It was like it was only being held down, it was under a rock, and the rocks just suddenly got turned. And anti-semitism, anti-islam Islamophobia, like anti-gay, all kinds of stuff went up. Percentages of hate crimes went up. I'm sure we're gonna experience the same things. But let's stick with with coaches. The obvious connection is if they're coaching clients that are in the US, they'll have an impact, right? But what other impacts will it have? Like we have ethical concerns that we talked about.

Amber Mayesr :

Are you talking about globally or in general?

Garry Schleifer:

Globally, you were taking the view of US centric, and then we were talking about it being more of a global impact. What's down the road for the rest of us?

Amber Mayesr :

Yeah, that's a great question.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Well, I think the the we wrote the article as a way of just kind of sounding the alarm. See, I don't know that either one of us knows what's down the road uh for coaches in general, no matter where they're practicing in the world. What we want coaches to be aware of is that there is this shift that seems to be happening. It's a social shift. It's not just happening in the US, it's happening in other parts of the world. We're hearing from people in other parts of the world that what formerly felt like safer environments to be who they are, to exercise free speech are are less so are less so now. And so what we want coaches to be aware of is that as coaches, we have an ethical responsibility to pay attention at the very beginning of our contracting process, right? That that's where the rubber hits the road for coaches. That either I'm gonna stand in my values, and maybe my values aren't around diversity, equity, belonging, maybe my values are around other things. But if my values are around equity and inclusion and belonging and accessibility, then when that client comes and says, hey, look, we've changed our contract a little bit this year. We're gonna ask you not to use any of these terms or not to engage in any of these topics. It's at the contracting phase that the coach has to ask themselves, uh, you know, is this something I'm comfortable doing?

Garry Schleifer:

Right, right. Um, I'll point to in your article, you have a great reminder, suggestions for action. Number one, clarify client coachee roles. I think you're expressing that right now. Interrogate the decision-making process, processes. Number three, co-create safe and brave coaching spaces, as we always do. Compromise where you can and where you can't, don't. I think those are very wise words for our readers and listeners to take home from this conversation. Wow. Anything else? Is there anything? Because Amber, you said, oh, we're gonna go there. Did we go there enough? Did we hear everything you wanted to say? We still have free speech.

Amber Mayesr :

I think we covered most of it. I would just say, in in the end, coaching with DEI AB in mind is good coaching. I mean, it's just effective coaching because essentially what we're saying, no matter where you are in the world, no matter whether you're part of an accredited association or your coach on your own, what we're seeking to do is to create a space where people can bring their whole selves, as much as they feel they want to and are able to. So our work to look at our own identities, to pay attention to how we're showing up. Are we tracking cues in our clients where they do want to share aspects of our identity? Are we able to engage with them around these issues? It's just good coaching, right? So that's what I would leave folks with.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you. Sakari, last words.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

I would just say that this whole issue of trust is what's at the center of the article. Do I trust myself as a coach to make the kind of decisions I need to make to be able to live into my integrity as a professional? And I think if all coaches are are doing that, then our profession is in good hands.

Garry Schleifer:

And I think we will. We will survive. Gloria Gaynor. There we go. There you go. Although she's in a bit of hot water right now. But anyway, on another. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation? We gave some great points already. Anything else that came up for you after you we published?

Amber Mayesr :

I would just say, you know, this is a journey. So be on the journey of doing exactly what Sukari was just talking about, you know, being able to fully trust yourself, doing the self-work, the personal work, to be able to show up in a way that creates trusting environments with your coach clients. The contracting piece is really key. So being really intentional, I guess that's the piece I would say, especially through this time, is to be very intentional about how we're setting up engagements, what we're agreeing to, what we're not agreeing to, those types of things. And I'm with you, Garry. I think there's a lot of hope. I think the coaching field is wonderful, it's blossoming no matter what.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, we're needed more than ever. Sakari?

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

Only if you're you're a member of an organization that has accredited you as a coach, EMCC, ICF, whatever. Go back and review those those code of ethics for your organization. Just take a minute or five minutes, whatever it takes, take another look at the ethics statement. Make sure you're aligned with those statements and this code of ethics. And just again, live into your values, stay grounded in them. Coaches know what to do.

Garry Schleifer:

We do. And a great reminder: the ethical code of conduct. I'm a member of the ICF, so I have to do that every three years anyway, but nobody says I can't do it in between.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

There you go.

Garry Schleifer:

Um, what's the best way to reach each either of you if somebody wants to uh get in touch?

Amber Mayesr :

Well, I would say they could go directly to our website, which is fifth domaincoaching.com, and you'll find our personal information on there or individual information on there, as well as more the work that we do together.

Garry Schleifer:

And is that F-I-F-T-H or Five T H?

Amber Mayesr :

FIF.

Garry Schleifer:

It's spelled out, yes. Spelled out. Good to remember. Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for not just for writing for us, but also for being here for this podcast. It's much appreciated and much needed. So thank you.

Amber Mayesr :

Thanks so much, Garry.

Sukari Pinnock Fitts :

We love choice. Thank you for having us.

Garry Schleifer:

So do I. We have a lot in common too. Thank you, thank you. That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of the screen, just over my head. If you're listening, go to Choice- Online and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.