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Episode 161: Trust At The Heart Of Coaching with guest, Dumisani Magadlela

• Garry Schleifer

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Trust doesn’t just make coaching nicer; it makes coaching work. We sit down with executive and team coach Dumisani Magadlela to explore why trust is the currency of transformation, how rapport becomes a deliberate practice, and what it takes to create a truly safe space where leaders can speak plainly, choose boldly, and act with integrity. From first-contact digital sessions to deep, ongoing relationships, we break down the practical moves that build trust quickly—clear contracting, presence, consent for depth, and the kind of silence that signals respect rather than distance.

Dumisani introduces Ubuntu intelligence—“I am because we are”—as a living framework for modern coaching. Instead of treating clients as isolated performers, Ubuntu invites us to see the systems they inhabit, the relationships that shape their choices, and the values that hold cultures together. We talk about why vulnerability needs boundaries, why ethics are non-negotiable, and why coaches must hold responsibility as carefully as they hold space. You’ll hear concrete ways to blend independence with interconnection, transforming team dynamics from guarded to generative.

We also spotlight Africa’s rapidly growing coaching landscape and the power of values-based leadership grounded in dignity, equality, and human agency. Dumisani shares how team coaching can expand a circle of trust among executives, and why a younger, ambitious continent represents the next frontier for coaching-driven change. Technology shows up as a partner, not a replacement—useful for preparation and prompts, but never a substitute for the human connection that actually shifts behavior.

If you care about coaching that sticks, this conversation is your roadmap to building trust, practicing Ubuntu, and leading with heart and rigor. Subscribe for more conversations with working coaches and thought leaders, share this episode with a colleague, and leave a review to tell us how you build trust in your practice.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Dumisani Magadlela here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to the Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features that you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest articles, have a chat with this brilliant author beside. Let's see if I got it right. I don't know what it's going to look like in a recording, but I'm pointing it to me. We're going to uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. And when you have a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and do what we all want to do, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's episode, I'm speaking with executive and team coach Dumasani Magadlela, who's the author of an article in our latest issue, "Trust. Why is it intrinsic to coaching?" His article is entitled "Trust in the Digital Coaching Age ~ Why it's more important now than ever to foster radical human connection. A little bit about Dumi because I have permission to call him Dumi. He's a PhD, professional certified coach with the International Coach Federation and as you can see, if you're watching, he's a best-selling author and has a book right behind him called Ubuntu Coaching and Connection Practices for Leader Managers. He's a founder and CEO of Africa Coaching, and he co-founded the Ubuntu Coaching Foundation at the Coaching Center in South Africa, promoting access to coaching in previously disadvantaged communities. He is a co-founding board member of the Africa Board for Coaching, Consulting, and Coaching Psychology. And he drives professional coaching development across Africa with partners like BCA Leadership while working globally. And most recently, he was the ICF Global Chair. So thank you very much for your service and for joining me today. Welcome Dumi. So we finally got you to write for us.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Finally. And we've been here before. I've tried to do something, and I'm glad this article came through. So thank you very, very much for having me.

Garry Schleifer:

What drew you to writing for this issue about trust in particular?

Dumisani Magadlela:

This is something that is very close to my heart. I work with leaders that are always looking for that. Right now, I just signed up team coaching client last week in one of our neighboring countries in Southern Africa. And one of the topics that the exco of this major financial institution wants to work on is how to grow their circle of trust among 12 executives. And this is what we're working on right now. So it's an issue that is topical, that is relevant, that many people are looking for, especially with massive numbers of diverse groups of people, different people in the workplace, age-wise alone, that we have all the se age categories in the same workplace. And issues of trust are looming, emerging, and becoming really an issue for some leaders.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, I'm going to quote a very wise man who wrote an article for choice recently, and he said, "Without trust, there's a good chance that even some of the most masterful, super skilled coaches in the world or the most advanced digital coaching platforms ever built may not achieve desired or meaningful coaching results." That was you, of course, in the article in the issue. Very well said. You know, I was getting ready this morning. Okay, to be honest, it was in the shower, and I've got to thinking we've known of each other and we've met perhaps a couple of times over a number of years.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yes.

Garry Schleifer:

And I would right away would say, I trust you.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah, there is an intrinsic part of it. There's something about human connection. That's why I write about why trust is more important than ever in fostering radical human connection. Because when we communicated first on email, and then when we met, it was like we had already known each other for many years before. And when there is that resonance or connection, which I call leaving Ubuntu intelligence, understanding that at some level we're already connected. It's a matter of stepping into that space where we can say hello and mean it, and then seek to really genuinely connect with someone as they show up, and not the story we hear about them or we not the boxes we tend to put people into. So maybe people will slot them in boxes to make sense of it. But the human brain has a tendency to want to do that. So trust is something that's that we have capacity for within us. We can enable it, allow it, or we can shut it down, maybe for fear, for what other reasons are there. And when we met for the first time in person in Florida, in that massive, massive space, there was a sense of, ah, I know this guy coming out of the hole, and like, oh, that's Garry. And there's a warmth of someone you already know, right? And they is already build trust in that it's a safe space for me to be myself around this person, yeah. So trust is a risky, risky undertaking.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh my goodness. Dumi, the amount of times that authors have written about one of the most one of the most interesting aspects of trust is being vulnerable, being willing to be vulnerable and open to connect with someone else. And coaches just do a masterful job of that.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

Very interesting.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Coaches deal in trust, really. I always say coaches deal in connection. That's great. Connection is nourished by trust, you lay the foundation of trust. Rapport itself is a trust-building undertaking at the beginning of any coaching engagement. So we say you build rapport, we teach coaches, new coaches that are coming in. Hope we can teach the algorithms that to say you've got to build trust with your client. You've got to establish rapport and make sure that your client trusts you to be vulnerable because the value of vulnerability is the trust is the currency that gives value to that vulnerability. If someone steps in and says, I'm gonna be vulnerable with this person. I'm gonna take a chance and be open with this person who is practicing as a coach, and they will know just open my chest and say see what's in there, right? Or open under the hood if you're more a mechanical person, and to look in there, and that is huge. That's why I call coaching is one of the most sacred human undertakings, especially if you work with leaders that are in control of millions of billions of dollars.

Garry Schleifer:

Dollars and lives.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah, and lives, exactly.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for that. I'd never thought of the word or the construct of rapport, but I mean that's what we start with when we're working. I'm really struck by the building of trust. And now I like that word rapport because you're right, it's the currency, it's the intention and the outcome of rapport building. I coach a lot on platforms and I'm faced with new people I didn't choose them, they chose me, and all of a sudden I'm on a platform and I'm coaching them for 45 minutes from zero. And I'm still amazed at the things they tell me, and then they tell me, but I've never I've never told anyone that. I've not even told my spouse this. And I feel honored, first of all, right, to have built that layer of trust and opened the vulnerability for them. But wow, the outcome of coaching someone from that place is amazing. So thank you, just to say thank you for reminding me of the word rapport, especially in rapport building.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Aand to add on to that, Garry, sorry to jump in there, there is something about that, what you just described now, that says responsibility. There is accountability and responsibility on the coach to say, now this person trusts me to hold the space for them to do their work. So a big part of this is when a coaching client trusts you that comes with the responsibility to hold the space for them to do what they signed up for. The work that they are coming to you to work on requires that you take that responsibility seriously, not just respect what they're bringing in. The ethical grounding of every coach is to really hold the space for the client to do their work, and when you do it with trust, it nourishes and enriches the relationship even more.

Garry Schleifer:

Well said, yeah, and you feel free to jump in anytime. These words of wisdom are brilliant, thank you. Switching up, but switching, and because this just drives me crazy to talk more about Ubuntu. What is Ubuntu and how does it come into coaching?

Dumisani Magadlela:

Thank you, Garry. One my favorite subjects, Ubuntu, it's Nguni word or Zulu word, is a Zulu word, which means you find this language across Southern Africa. U, B, U, N T U. Ubuntu. It comes from it's really about the essence of being human. Human with an E. It's about being humane in how we show up in our world, it's about recognizing and respecting, and then leaving into human connection. That's why I talk about radical human connection. That's Ubuntu intelligence, leaving with the knowledge that I am and we are all inherently, inextricably interconnected as human beings and other beings that we share this limited life that we have with. And Ubuntu says, I am because we are, but it's far more than that, Garry. It's recognizing, knowing in every cell of your body that you have become more than you can be, when you enable and co-create spaces where others can also become the best versions of themselves. And you rob others of the gifts that are in yourself or in others, when you obstruct others or yourself from becoming the best version of yourself. In other words, we are on this life journey to co-create spaces where everyone can express or deploy their gifts in the service of the greater good of our collective common humanity. When we either deny others or obstruct them, directly or indirectly, from becoming the best versions of themselves, we're robbing not them alone, but ourselves and all humanity of the gifts that can only come through them. So we have unique giftings, all eight and a half or more billion of us. There's only one Garry who can do what Garry does. And imagine being obstructed to become Garry. You've got to be. Coaching, is quite sacred. It's one of the most profound ways to enable someone to show up with the gifts that come through them. How sacred is that?

Garry Schleifer:

Very oh, I've always felt that way. That's why I love.. people say to me, Oh, look, you know, when are you gonna my mother? When are you gonna retire? I'm like, but I don't work, I coach, and I love what I do, so I can do this forever, right?

Dumisani Magadlela:

I love that.

Garry Schleifer:

From wherever.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah, I don't work, I coach.

Garry Schleifer:

I like that. I just made that up today, so I'm gonna have to remember that one when my mom asked me again.

Dumisani Magadlela:

I am gonna write that.

Garry Schleifer:

I don't work, I coach. I think I got it. I think I got it. Yeah. Well, speaking of coaching, give me the connection between and I've noticed a different pronunciation, ubuuntu and coaching in your book. Tell us what you're revealing that's different than just the two separate constructs.

Dumisani Magadlela:

I will use a technology example to articulate the Jonesia question. When you buy a computer, you install software for it to work, otherwise it doesn't work. When humans are born or grown, natured, socialized, and culturated, whatever we do to create a fun well-functioning human being, what do we put in them and how do we do that? There's early childhood rearing, raise a child, and you support the child to grow and be a well-functioning, fitting human being who can be on their own and be an independent soul and do whatever they're here to do. But do we do that always consciously, intentionally, mindfully, with the real intent of wanting this to be there? We help them find their path. In some communities, we have initiation rituals, we have rite of passage rituals, we help people say, now you reach this stage of your life, this age, you've got to do this, you've got to go through this for you to then graduate and become now you're an adult. You're a boy, you're a young man, now you're an adult, now you have responsibilities like this, take care of your family, you need to get married, have children. So rights of passage through life in like that. Now with coming back to the technology example, the installation we need to have here, it's not a package that you download your code and you put it in in a human being like now you're gonna be girl, you're gonna be a coach. Here's your code. What do we do with human beings? The education system, the family, which is something else, another topic, another day, the education system, the programs and other ways, examples that are set by the context, communities people are raised in, they get to see that this is how you have to be to be adopted. And when we do this intentionally with Ubuntu, of saying you need to be a person with Ubuntu, and what Ubuntu is, and they've grown up around seeing human beings with humanity, human beings that are aware that they're connected to the world, to other human beings, to nature, and they're caring and loving of everything and everyone. It's actually easier than most people think. We get to see that this is how to be a well-functioning, well-fitting human being who is nurturing of all life. And Ubuntu is the software that humanity needs now in the digital age, especially. And it starts by acknowledging, recognizing and knowing and seeing and living as if I'm aware of the interconnections that exist between me and you, me and everyone else. Because those connections are there, we know that, we sense that, we feel that. Neuroscientists have always told us, Garry, you know this, that the more the body knows this is why when you see something horrific, something happens in your body, even if it's strange, someone you don't know. You feel that when you see it. Why is that? There's a deeper connection somewhere among us. We know this. Call it intuition, call it sensing. So many words you can describe it. We know that we are interconnected. I always tell the story of my grandfather, who was a healer who knew that a patient was coming because he dreamt of it, went and found medicine and then prepared it and administered when the client came in later on. And people loved that. The thing is, what is it that I'm aware of that makes me an interconnected human being that I've suppressed or numbed in me or muted, if I can use a tech term.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Wow. I love that you use that software analogy because it's like, you know, we're raised independent, all this, and and that's the initial software, and then we have an upgrade or an additional package called Ubuntu, which we then layer in to remind us that although we are raised to be independent, we are also connected in the great world of humanity.

Dumisani Magadlela:

And independence and connection are not mutually exclusive, Garry. We are independent.

Garry Schleifer:

Come on, don't stop there.

Dumisani Magadlela:

These are the same things. It's very important to sharpen your own gifts on your own independently, and know who you are fully. So we need to have these reflective spaces, and coaching can do that on mentors, and know that this is what I'm really, really good at. I'm a coach, I don't work, I don't do coaching, I'm a coach. And I've done it so long that I know that. I mean my wife would tell me I'm not your coach. Can we have a conversation now? We are having a conversation, but you're just asking me questions and making statements. What's your feeling about this? And then I say, of course, you're coaching me now.

Garry Schleifer:

She's got your number, my friend. She's got your number.

Dumisani Magadlela:

No, no, she does, she does. So the point I'm making with independence and and connection, let's call it that, is that it's knowing that we must must grow independent. We're independent, individual beings in connection with others. It's an ecosystem, it's a network of connections. This is who we are. Like if you're in a house in a room where you are, there's multiple gadgets that are connected to this the Wi-Fi router. Ubuntu is like that. It's the router for everyone else, and the software that runs that router for everyone else. We can plug into it if we want to, or we can ignore it and say, Nah, I want to be alone and independent, just live individually. This is the Western Anglo-Saxon way of living that I'm an independent being. I don't need anybody else. I'm alone, the individual hero. The days of that are long gone. We need to come back home to Ubuntu and Ubuntu intelligence, knowing and living as interconnected beings. This is how we're going to partner successfully with technology right now, and trust nourishes that.

Garry Schleifer:

I used one of the art when I was doing my website, I added, I took an article that was about business and trust in this issue, and I put it into Chat GPT along with a copy for my website to ask it does where where am I missing the trust factor? Like what the author had written about it and it came up with some brilliant things that I wouldn't have thought of to layer in more trust on the website. But you have me thinking, I'm not convinced yet that I've got that rapport building part down. So that's very helpful on that category. Um shifting gears yet again. I rarely get the opportunity to meet leaders on other continents. Majority are Europe, UK. You're a mover and shaker in Africa. And tell me what you know about coaches coaching and coaching advancement in Africa and just your own part of the world.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah, thank you, Garry. That's a subject that can easily get very moving for me looking at leaders we have and leaders that need to be grounded. And that's the word I want to leave with our listeners, viewers here. The grounding in values is very important. We're doing this recording in 2025, and South Africa is hosting the G20, and I'm part of the team that's working on the V20, which is the Values 20. And one of the things that we're bringing in there is how values such as Ubuntu, such as human dignity, such as human agency, equality, how those fit into the world of global macro economics or global business. And for me, every leader in politics and business in multilateral sector, in the nonprofit sector, civil society needs to be grounded in values that enhance and nourish human relationships across the board. So the work I'm doing with many others incredible partners and friends that I worked with on the Ubuntu landscape, let's call it that, with Ubuntu awareness and Ubuntu intelligence. The school I'm teaching in, I've been teaching for almost 20 years, 18 years thereabout, called the Coaching Center that you read about in my profile, where we have the Ubuntu Coaching Foundation. The founder, Dr. Paddy Pampallis, is an incredible coach. And human beings done a lot impacting that. And we we partner in promoting that. I teach in the Stan Bush Business School on Ubuntu Team Coaching, as a team coach myself. The Africa Center for Work-Based Learning in Pretoria, South Africa's capital, with an incredible guy called Dr. Mongezi Makhalima, who is actually a coaching legend, does a lot of work silently, quietly. These are people that have been friends and colleagues and partners for many, many years. My big sister, Nobantu Mpotulo, who's an ICF MCC coach, runs ICF accredited Ubuntu coaching course. On that, I've been good friends with them many, many, many years. They work to come to your questions that these are people working on growing Ubuntu aware coaching or coaching that recognizes that leaders in the global south. I mean we have global south is huge, it's an entity. But generally on the African continent, we mentioned BCA leadership in my profile. Incredible coaches there with Dr. ____ Pierce, who is another pioneer and a giant of a coach who does incredible things across the continent working with leaders. So there's so many and looking at how do we bring values-based leadership into the coaching space so that the coaches know that they have a responsibility to transform the world. Very, very important. So just to end on this, is that it is the responsibility of every coach who works in an environment where coaching is still emerging, like the global south. I call it the front next big frontier for coaching. Africa is the youngest continent on earth. Imagine if the so-called demographic dividend was infused with and informed by and led with coaching. Coaching that is Ubuntu-based, working with understanding that we are in this together. We cannot succeed if we separate and disconnect from everyone else. We are in this together, and we need to bring everyone's gifts to the fore to bear.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, well said, thank you very much. And seriously, thank you to you and all the colleagues you've mentioned for spreading the word and advancement of coaching in the global south. And yeah, just can't tell you how thrilled I am to have you here today. Yes.

Dumisani Magadlela:

It's absolutely wonderful, Garry. Thank you very much.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, what would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation? Probably buy your book somewhere.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go to Amazon and Ubuntu Coaching and Connection Practices for Leader and get more around what Ubuntu is and what Ubuntu intelligence is, because it's a concept. It doesn't say Ubuntu's intelligence, it's Ubuntu intelligence, and knowing that Ubuntu is inherently intelligence itself, like you would say, emotional intelligence, social intelligence.

Garry Schleifer:

I know I heard that. That's like UI.

Dumisani Magadlela:

Yeah, yeah, it is, and we call it UBUQ, yeah, actually intelligence, yeah. And so people can follow me on LinkedIn, it's Dumi Magadlela PhD on LinkedIn, and on X, I'm on at CoachDumi1, the number one, the digit one, at Coach Dumi1, and my website www. afrikacoaching.com, Africa with a K.

Garry Schleifer:

K.

Dumisani Magadlela:

AfrikaCoaching.com, Africa with a K. Yeah, and then uh yeah, and we can connect each other. Read the article, it talks to something that we all need. So for me, I would say enjoy the article. There's a small piece of me. I took a number of things out of that article, and Garry, I I hope to be writing some more.

Garry Schleifer:

I hope so too. Thank you very much. Well, I'm gonna leave the audience with a quote from your article. "So there's a call, not yet loud enough, for human coaches to develop, deepen, sharpen, and or accelerate their ability to be more humane in their engagements.' Give that some thought, listeners. Thank you Dumi so much for joining us today for this Beyond the Page episode.

Dumisani Magadlela:

My pleasure.

Garry Schleifer:

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. Probably the one that got you here in the first place. We're everywhere. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this podcast, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of our screen. If you're listening, you can go to -choice online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.