choice Magazine

Episode 167: Trust First, Coaching Next with guest, Kimberly Jackson

• Garry Schleifer

Share episode

Send us a text

Trust is the real currency of coaching, and we’re putting it under a bright light. With pioneer coach and ICF founding member Kimberly Jackson, we trace trust from the first moment a prospect encounters your work to the way you close an engagement and keep growth alive afterward. Kimberly lays out simple, powerful moves any coach can adopt today: teach freely without the bait-and-switch, show your process so clients see how you think, and write to an actual human rather than a fictional buyer. We unpack the three most common trust breakers—inconsistency, inattention, and ego—and model how to repair without retreating by naming the miss, listening deeply, and recommitting to the partnership.

We also get practical about presence. Tools like talk-time analytics help keep the focus on the client, while the WAIT prompt—Why Am I Talking—stops well-meaning overcoaching. Kimberly shares why offboarding is the hidden weak link in many practices and how to turn endings into beginnings with a way forward plan that transfers ownership to the client. From there, we explore nurturing strategies that build community, peer coaching, and light-touch accountability so progress continues long after the final session.

Finally, we tackle AI’s real role in coaching. Rather than replace human empathy, AI can capture patterns, offer 24–7 access to your frameworks, and keep momentum between sessions. Whether clients enter through one-on-one work, a group, or an AI-powered tool, a cohesive flywheel keeps the journey moving. If you care about ethical marketing, psychological safety, and client outcomes that last, this conversation will sharpen your craft and widen your impact.

Enjoyed the conversation? Follow and share the show, leave a quick review to help others find it, and subscribe so you never miss new insights from leaders shaping the future of coaching.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Kimberly here. 

Kimberly has provided our listeners with The COACHpreneur's Guide to Building Unshakable Trust which you can find here.

Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/

Garry Schleifer:

Welcome to the choice Magazine podcast Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into this latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author beside me, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you have a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and most importantly, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive in.

Garry Schleifer:

In today's podcast, I'm speaking with Coach Kimberly Jackson, that's with a little C I noticed, but this is a big C coach, okay, who's the author of an article in our latest issue, Trust. Why is it intrinsic to coaching? Her article is entitled From the Ground Up: Five Steps to Building a Coaching Engagement Based on Trust. A little bit about Kimberly. She holds a PhD, she's an MCC with the International Coaching Federation, a pioneer in human development and technology with more than 35 years of impact across coaching, education, and enterprise growth. Now, this is the one I just love to say. She's a founding member of both the International Coaching Federation, the ICF, and International Association of Coaching, IAC. She also created Coachpreneur School and the Coaching Sisterhood to mentor the next generation of successful coaches. She developed the ISTAR model, stands for individually scheduled tests and results, which transformed learning through technology. Interesting. Maybe you can tell us more about that. Kimberly leads the Global Leadership Brain Trust, a curated collective of experts guiding large-scale transformation, and through Coach Kimberly International, equips Fortune 500 leaders and teams to build trust, drive innovation, and lead with strategic clarity. Kimberly, thank you so much for joining me today. I just have to ask, so did you ever think ICF would be where it is today when you first were starting it with the founding members? Who was around the table?

Kimberly Jackson:

Yeah, I was gonna say Thomas Leonard and I. He was the first person I was talking to, but no, I would not have seen it take off the way it's taken off. But I'm so thrilled that it has.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, no kidding, me too. I've been a part of it since 2001. So I'm a little late game, but that's still 24 and a half years ago.

Kimberly Jackson:

Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, that's the literally adopter.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, and speaking of Thomas Leonard, I'm a member of the Gay Coaches Alliance, and they have an annual award called the Thomas J. Leonard Humanitarian Award, and I am one of the recipients of that award. So I'm proud to say that.

Kimberly Jackson:

Yeah, well deserved. I was thrilled they have something in his honor like that. He was so unique and so special and so brilliant. He could see around corners.

Garry Schleifer:

Oh, in his big purple bus or whatever that was, RV, right?

Kimberly Jackson:

His RV.

Garry Schleifer:

I've heard of it. I don't know if I've ever seen a picture, but yeah, and you know, kudos to you too for being at the table for all of that. Just admit, it must have been an amazing experience looking back, must have been an amazing experience.

Kimberly Jackson:

It was, but I have to say, so I was significantly younger than Thomas when I first met him, and so I was like the young kid on the block, and it was fun to have people be like, so what is she adding and why is she here? But I think I proved my my value over the over time, but that big fun bus in his RV is actually how I got to him. So if you ever want to unpack that, we just ask away.

Garry Schleifer:

We'll save that for another call. The wheels on the bus go round and round. Well again, thank you for writing for choice. What had you what inspired you to write at this time?

Kimberly Jackson:

So thank you for the opportunity and for accepting the article. I couldn't be more honored. I've been such a fan and early subscriber and devourer of choice. When you did a call out, which I pay attention to and you send great emails out and really asked the coaching community to co-create and bring their voice, and I just love your style and approach. But this particular one, because your theme was on trust, was just like ding ding ding for me, because I believe absolutely in the United States, but definitely abroad as well, that we're in a trust recession, you know, really as a human race. And so when I saw your theme was going to be on trust, I thought I may want to add my voice to that. I've always enjoyed being what my people will say on the down low, like the best kept secret in coaching is kind of like the joke, and but actually probably somewhat of a reality as well. And so when I saw that, I said, you know what? I I gotta, it's time. I need I need to add a voice. I have something to say. So I really appreciate it.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, thank you for saying it. So I'm gonna ask you first thing and tell you what I did, but for those that haven't read the article, you list a number of ways, but what are some small ways to show trust in your marketing before anyone ever engages someone as a client?

Kimberly Jackson:

So it's a good question because I think coaches today really struggle with visibility and credibility. They feel like they either have to do so much on social media or spend money and do sponsored ads. And coaching is a partnership, it's a trust and relationship. And so to engage a coachee, you really need to begin with trust before the transaction, you know. And so it doesn't begin when they sign the contract, it begins long before that, in a lot of micro moments. So a couple of quick examples. Teach freely. I know a lot of people get a little hesitant about their intellectual property, and well, if I give it away for free, you know, then who's gonna, you know, engage me? But I think when you share those insights, and you know, and not just teasers, you know, and then you put the juice behind a paywall, but like really teach freely. The other is to show your process, like pull back the curtain. How do you think? You know, it's not just what you sell because transparency is what builds safety, and that's how you can begin, you know, showing trust in marketing. The last thing, well, two more things real quick. You always want to speak to the person and not the sale.

Garry Schleifer:

Say that one again.

Kimberly Jackson:

So if you write and share things as if you're having a conversation with a real person and not just your avatar, and not just who's gonna sign the check, then you're gonna be able to have that connection, and you really need that to have a really good partnership in a coaching relationship, and then last but not least, with your marketing, be consistent. So decide where your voice should show up, and once you do that, show up consistently. I'll tell a lot of coaches in coachpreneur school: please don't become a one-hit wonder. Don't have the one viral, you know, TikTok or whatever it is, and think that's it, I got it, I've arrived. You really have to build those micro moments. So your tone, your timing, your integrity, and your message, it's how you'll build trust in your marketing.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, well, thank you for that. Because when I read this, this is was like, oh my goodness, this is exactly like the nuggets of which one client comes to mind in particular, consistency in marketing. And they keep questioning, you know, do I go after this latest shiny object? But how do you know? And I'm like, consistency, consistency, consistency. And the struggle though is like the consistency hasn't generated the results yet. And I keep saying it's like it's it's there's going to be a tipping point, yeah. You know, but I also have to be careful, I don't want to end up being a cheerleader or a false hope person, right? That kind of thing. Kimberly, so big secret. I was I'm gonna tell you, I love this article so much that I'm building an AI Coach Garry, and it's built and launched actually, and I was building a new website, and I was writing the copy, and it was all done. And I was, you know, I thought, I think I pretty well got it. And I saw your article and I thought, and I hope you're okay with this, I took your article and loaded it into ChatGPT along with my script or my copy for the website, and it came up with some very good ideas and changes that needed to be made in order to build a coaching engagement based on trust, as we say in the title. So I thank you. It was it worked, like it pointed out some things, and I'm like, oh yeah, that's what she means. I get that, I get that. And it just was like, you know, wow, thank you.

Kimberly Jackson:

Well, you're so welcome, and I'm thrilled to hear that. I love AI, and I really can see how it will support coaching and even be a catalyst for coaching, not replace coaching.

Garry Schleifer:

Right. Well, and that's the thing I'm finding. So to the listeners, check it out for sure, coachgarry.com, 14-day free trial. You still have to put in your credit card, just little service, you know, tiny print. But I really want coaches, coaches are not necessarily my target audience, but I want coaches to look at it so that they can see and be assured that there's , you know, we're not, it's not replacing. I mean, I kind of promote it like it does, but there's some things it will never 100% pass a PCC marker test, because one of the minor subcategories is about nuance of things you have to see, like eye rolls and things like that. So it'll never 100%, but even more than that, there's that presence, empathy that a sentient being can only do. So I'm with you 100%, and I love my Coach Garry, and it's your opportunity to have a coach in your pocket, so to speak, 24-7. And thanks to you, there's a more element of trust. I'm gonna continue to use your article if that's okay, to email copy and things like that, to just have that as like a uh not just a starting point, but a checkpoint.

Kimberly Jackson:

Well, you know, I love that because Coach Garry, you're a human being that is there's only one of you, you're unique, there's only so much time in the day, so you cannot possibly be available 24-7 yourself, right? I believe that when you build your AI agent or digital twin and it knows your coaching style, your philosophy, your methodology, when you are not available, your coachee can still access your vault of information. And so I think it's fabulous. I'm thrilled you did that.

Garry Schleifer:

Thank you. Yeah, I am too. It's been fun. It's been a year, two different companies, uh, you know, different teams and stuff like that. But, you know, in between doing regular coaching, I was building this other thing. So check it out, coaches. But back to the topic at hand. Issues about trust. Let's go to the dark side. What are the biggest trust breakers for coaches and how can we recover from them?

Kimberly Jackson:

Ah, such a good question. So I always say when trust gets shaken, repair, don't retreat. So, what do I mean by that?

Garry Schleifer:

Retreat. Okay.

Kimberly Jackson:

Yeah, repair, don't retreat. So even the best coaches can have a moment that tests trust. They could have a missed follow-up, they might have a rushed session, as much as we don't aim to do that. Life is always in session, and things happen. And so there's three things that it usually comes down to when you break trust, and that's inconsistency, inattention, and ego. So inconsistency absolutely erodes safety. So if your timing, your tone, potentially some of your behaviors, if you fluctuate, so if there's any inconsistency, a client could kind of question, like, so what's real here? You know, do they really believe this? Do they believe that? I got this suggestion, you know. So inconsistency is huge to repair if you break trust. And then inattention. So inattention, you know, is when someone feels unseen. And one of the big things, Thomas, Dave, Kim, you know, a bunch of us would say David would talk about the goal of coaching, part of it when you connect, is your coachee wants to feel seen, heard, and believed. They want that safe space. So you can break trust if you have that inattention. That goes back to presence, right? Which we could spend a lot of time talking about, right?

Garry Schleifer:

And is it an upcoming an issue of choice, by the way.

Kimberly Jackson:

Yeah. Oh, awesome! I love that. You know, so ultimately if you miss some details, like you were saying a moment ago, you know, those nuances and being able to read body language and you know, really, you know, that listening beyond words. Right? If you miss some of those signals, then someone feels like their story wasn't really heard. And if they don't feel heard, can they really trust you to be the partner that's gonna guide them to a breakthrough? And the last, you know, which to me is one of the big ways you can break trust is when your ego sneaks in and and a coach can push their own agenda instead of holding space for the client's agenda. I feel like some newer coaches, if they're suffering from like imposter syndrome, in a session, they'll they want to be relatable and almost have the coachee feel like, you know, I hear you, but they keep coming back to their own story to connect constantly. And while sometimes that's helpful and you need to be relatable, but if you do that so much, um, I had one coach that I was like going through and listening before she was going for her MCC, and she would talk so much about her journey, other clients that you know, I felt like okay, ego just snuck in. Your coachee, where's their story? Like they should be the center of attention. So again, you know stuff happens if you break trust, does that mean all is lost? No, but don't retreat, don't panic, just repair. And so, and how do you do that? You want to name it. So, I'll give a quick example. You can say, I sense I may have missed the mark here. Can we talk about it? And just opening that up and having your presence come through, you'll repair through listening, empathy, and always recommitting to the partnership.

Garry Schleifer:

I love it. Oh, you're singing from the PCC marker songbook there in that last one, recommit agreements, keep renewing and reminding the agreement. Yeah. And you know, to your point about the the new coaches, I still remember when I ever question anything like that, I would reflect back on those times when I'll sit with a client for half an hour, three quarters of an hour, and if I said 10 words of the whole session, that would have been a lot. And the outcome for the client was that was the most amazing session ever. And I was just there being present to your point, right? So you never know how it shows up for clients, yeah.

Kimberly Jackson:

And that psychologically safe container, right? Making that space, the person who's investing in themselves, you're giving them that time and space to reflect, you know, to share. I love when you're doing that. So there's a recording software out there called Fathom. Some people may have heard it, and full disclosure, I'm an investor in Fathom. But one of the things I like about it, it will give the percentage of talk time. So the percentage that you're talking and the percentage your coachee or your client is speaking. And it's really what sold me. I mean, it's got a lot of neat things to record and transcribe and all that, but a whole bunch of tools do that. The percentage of talk time. I was like, yeah, coaches need to use this.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Kimberly Jackson:

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

And there's an example, perfect example of like an AI augmenting tool that will help you see that exactly that percentage of talking. And what's your percentage these days, Kimberly?

Kimberly Jackson:

So I'm trying to keep mine down to 20%. Yeah, like a 20/80.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah.

Kimberly Jackson:

So I'll tell a new, you know, potential coachee, you know, part of like philosophy approach, things like that. I follow the 80/ 20 rule. You know, it's 80% them and 20% me. Yeah. Even though a partnership is fifty fifty. Right?

Garry Schleifer:

Well, that's a different thing. You know, it's interesting? You remind me of and interestingly, a client told me this. W A I T. Why am I talking? I'll catch myself. I'll write it because I keep a few notes for clients that try not to get too distracted. But I'll write that down as my jotting reminder. And it's like, oh Garry, shut up.

Kimberly Jackson:

I'll have to find this picture if I can and send it to you. So Thomas Leonard and I, really early on, like in the early early 90s, um, 92, I think, we would do a lot of conference calls, right? You didn't have any of this fun stuff. We'd get on a conference line and we'd all have post-it notes we'd stick around the big phone, and those post-it notes would keep us on whatever proficiency we were trying to develop. Because, you know, we had 45 proficiencies, 15 for each level, ACC, PCC, MCC. So it was a lot more back then, right? But we used to do the sticky notes, and when we would do role play and practice coaching, and sometimes if we met in person, we'd still all have our sticky notes out, and Thomas would be like, take a sticky note and stick it on someone's forehead, and be like, no. So a lot of fun back then, but yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, well, there's still fun in coaching now. So many great communities.

Kimberly Jackson:

Oh, yeah.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, so thank you. I want to go back to the article. You have five different categories in here: attracting, first impressions matter ; onboarding, setting the stage for trust; partnering, doing the real work; offboarding, ending well matters; and nurturing, keep the connection alive. What's the weakest link for coaches?

Kimberly Jackson:

Offboarding.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah. Oh, really? Tell me more.

Kimberly Jackson:

So, I think they underestimate the power of offboarding. I think most coaches know like this is how you're wrapping up an engagement, but I think they miss a couple valuable things. So when you are offboarding and you acknowledge that journey, like you're gonna celebrate their growth, you're gonna name some of those turning points, you'll reflect on the shifts that maybe they don't even see, and that most coaches I think do. There's two things that I think that they really miss, but now I've seen it showing up more and more and more since we started teaching it about 10 years ago, which is to transfer ownership because growth never stops. So, how do you transfer ownership? It's when we develop what we call the way forward plan, and you'll see that show up more and more. And so when you create a way forward plan, you're really empowering your coachee to sustain progress without you, and then to go past that, you still invite a continuation, like you keep the door open. Most coaches will get feedback and things like that, but ultimately the next stage and how they go together after off-boarding to nurturing probably are tied for like what is really the weakest, because most coaches kind of okay, that engagement wrapped up, that's over, that's that. They go back to their marketing, they don't do a full out nurture. So I'll share really quickly. So when we were sitting around talking about what do we name this modality, you know, this human development. I'm a huge Jane Austen fan. And so I think of the Victorian days and the carriage and the coach. And you used to ring for your coach, and they'd meet you where you are, you would tell them where you'd like to be, you'd co-create a plan, you'd get in the carriage with the coach, right? And they would take you to where you want to go, and then they'd be available when you would ring for them again, right? So there's some Victorian carriages out there and some marketing material from like 30 years ago. But I feel like so many coaches miss the opportunity to continue journeying on a client's growth trajectory. So, like some people find out I've had some executives for 20 plus years, and they're like, oh my gosh, that you're creating codependence. You don't do that as a coach. And I'm like, no, like you listen, you know, come in a little closer. When we are looking at the goals, when you're setting up the engagement, when you're offboarding and you're looking at the progress of that, there's always a new skill to develop, there's always a new world to conquer, there's always a new goal. And when a coach has built that level of trust with their coaching, they're gonna trust you with their next. Where am I going So I think that the weakest link most of the time is the offboarding because to me, endings are always new beginnings.

Garry Schleifer:

I like that. There used to be a store in Canada that says the end of one sale is the beginning of the next. The end of one relationship is the opportunity to co-create a new one or a direction or a learning. Yeah, I totally agree. I would say I'm probably weaker in that area. And I do ask the client, so what support do you have beyond this? Does your company have a mentor program? That sort of thing. And sometimes they have something and sometimes they don't, but at least it puts a bug in their ear and they can think about that going forward.

Kimberly Jackson:

I know it's in the article, but one of the things we recommend in off-boarding, that also then goes to nurturing. So it's probably really more nurturing, is create a community. Now that's a little misleading because communities use for lots of different things, but we have found that a coachee, when they're offboarded, will say they're inactive in the coaching world a lot of times. Like that's an inactive client. But if you truly transfer the ownership, what we like to see and what we like to promote is you just had a wonderful experience, at least that's what we hope, and transformation one-on-one. So if you build a community for your coachees that are offboarding, you move them from one-on-one to peer or group coaching. Because to me, everyone needs a coach, and everyone can learn the coaching skill set. Like our number one program that we sell that we've had for 30 years is Leader As Coach. And lots of coaches license that from us, use that, etc. But so when you off-board and you're nurturing, and it can be a revenue stream if you charge a small fee, have all of your one-on-ones go into a community, give them a structure and a framework, but they can be self-directed, and now it's a peer coaching community and not a networking group, although benefits from building relationships are naturally can occur, right? But I think that's a a really, really, really good strategy that then we can go to them. And if they've been experiencing peer coaching and they're like, I really want to go deeper, I need to unpack that one-on-one. Then they know now they know so they come back to the live coach, or is there something in your digital twin or your AI coach? Right.

Garry Schleifer:

Well, to be honest, it's a little bit the other way around for my plan. My plan is to have people engaged at , so here's the thing, Kimberly. I'm coaching on a couple of platforms in the world, and 99% of those people have never had a coach. So if they can only have a coach because their company provided it or it's too expensive, my AI coach Garry is a great way to have the experience of coaching. And I'm looking for common patterns in their conversations because I'll have access to the transcripts confidentially. And I'll look for patterns, and I'll be hosting a monthly group coaching call as a bonus to the program for them to come to a community and talk live with peers or me on the topic that seems to be resonating with them. Just to finish down to your point, then if they want to go one-on-one with me, I have an offering for that as well. So it's a build upwards. And a lot of coaches I know are doing it the way you just said, where it's they have a coach to be there in between the one-on-one. So they've hired them for one-on-one, and then they also get an AI coach, an agent, as you will.

Kimberly Jackson:

So yeah, I think you can go both ways. So when we look at the five stages, we call it the Coachpreneur flywheel, and this is what we teach in Coachpreneur School. There's a reason why the first stage and the fifth stage are cut, everything is color-coded, and they're both shades of pink, because pink was always our color code for marketing or client attraction, right? I believe once you have a flywheel in motion, it will stay in motion. So whether they come in one-on-one and they exit group and AI, or they come in AI, group, and and exit to a one-on-one. I think once you get like, I remember, you know, my physical trainer saying, Hey, a body of motion stays in motion. So for listeners, I just joined the senior center in my community. So a body emotion stays in motion. So it's the same thing, a coach in motion, a practice that's moving in emotion, will always stay in motion. And that's really where that flywheel is so important. Because it really doesn't matter that entry point, because ultimately, in coaching, if you know the pains and the gains that they are seeking, you're going to meet them where they are. If they're sitting quietly alone on a park bench and your little carriage comes up, or they were hanging out at a big party with hundreds of people and your carriage came up, right? You're meeting your coachee where they are.

Garry Schleifer:

Right. One of the tenants of coaching, meeting them where they are. So ring that bell and get your coach drive by carriage, or is that the right way to say it? I love it. Oh my goodness, Kimberly, I could talk with you all day long about this, but unfortunately it's time to start heading down the end of our call. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article and this conversation?

Kimberly Jackson:

Well, some obvious things would be subscribe to the podcast beyond the page and if they're not subscribing and reading choice, to do that as well. But I also, like I said earlier, Garry, and not to end on a somber note, so I'll try to be more inspirational and motivational, but we are in a trust recession. You know, people are struggling, right? And not just post-COVID, although that brought about some things with mental health and burnout and where are people, right? When you slow down long enough and you're like, oh, here's reality, right? Instead of staying on a hamster wheel. So I would recommend because of where we are, I think coaches need to step up, speak up, stand up, like really lean in, be bold, and you know, have a voice, shift culture, get us back to not the you know, can we eliminate discord altogether? Maybe not, but we could close that chasm and that great divide, especially with coaches supporting the conversations that some people are afraid to have.

Garry Schleifer:

Yeah, that's very inspirational. Thank you. Kimberly, what's the best way for people to reach you if they want to get in touch with you?

Kimberly Jackson:

I think LinkedIn's probably the best platform, and my handle is Coach Kimberly. Coach Kimberly. So when you go on LinkedIn.com / Coach Kimberly, I'll be easy to find. I'm also a bright redhead, so if you see more of the one Kimberly Jackson, I think I'm the only redhead.

Garry Schleifer:

There we go. I'm fortunate because it's Garry with two R's, and that's pretty rare. So thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode, Kimberly.

Kimberly Jackson:

Thank you for having me.

Garry Schleifer:

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, please subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this video, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of our screen. Or if you're listening, go to Choice- Online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.