Episode 152: Choice Mapping For Coaches with guest, Kim DeYoung

A single sentence can reveal more than a 60-minute coaching call if we know how to work with it: “I choose to…” That’s where our conversation with author and teacher Kim DeYoung begins, and it quickly turns into a practical masterclass on how coaches can stay present, curious, and connected to what’s true when a client feels stuck, conflicted, or overwhelmed by a decision.

We unpack Kim’s Choice Mapping framework, a visual method that captures a client’s exact words and expands them through focused inquiry. We talk about why mapping is different from journaling, how a coach can use early maps as a benchmark, and what happens when the “choice” a client names at the start turns out not to be the real choice at all. Along the way, Kim shares the coaching mindset behind the tool: letting go of perfection, resisting fix-it mode, and trusting that better questions create better outcomes.

Kim also walks through the core prompts that consistently deepen the work: why the choice matters, what could hold the client back, who they want to be while choosing, what becomes possible, and what actions they will take. We explore how Choice Mapping can support healing around past choices, including shame and regret, and how thoughtful notes and reflection can go beyond what AI-generated recaps can provide by elevating a client’s own “gems of wisdom” into lasting insight.

If you want a coaching tool for decision making, client clarity, accountability, and deeper coaching conversations, you’ll get plenty to try right away. Subscribe, share this with a coach friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find Beyond the Page.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Kim here. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Podcast Mission

Garry Schleifer 0:08

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we're bringing you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into this latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you have a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and do what we all love to do, make a real difference in our clients' lives. Choice is a go-to resource for you for all things coaching, but in the meantime, let's dive into today's podcast. In today's episode, I'm speaking with author and teacher Kim DeYoung, who is the author of an article on our latest issue, The Power of Choice. Her article is entitled Guiding Clients to Their Truths: a Choice Mapping Framework for Staying Present, Curious, and Connected to What's True in Every Conversation. A little bit about Kim. She's the creator of, no kidding, Choice Mapping, a framework that helps people ask the questions they haven't asked themselves and recognize patterns they couldn't see alone. She's the author of the Book of Choice and teaches the creative art of choice mapping workshop. Kim is currently developing a choice mapping certification for coaches who want to bring this methodology into their practice. Not only that, Kim was our co-lead in the entire production of this issue of choice, which I have to say was about time that it happened, but I think the timing was perfect because we got you and your choice mapping, which might not have been available 24 years ago when we started. Kim, thank you so much for joining me today.

Kim DeYoung 1:56

I am so glad to be with you, Garry. I've been looking forward to this so much.

Garry Schleifer 2:01

Well, me too. And thank you so much for the article. It was just a no-brainer to ask you to be a co-lead, and I'm very honored and appreciative that you said yes. It was a fun process and you made it easy. So thank you.

Kim DeYoung 2:17

You are so welcome. I loved it. And what's funny is we started this like at the end of 24. You know, here it is, all things months later. Pretty great.

How The Framework First Emerged

Garry Schleifer 2:28

That's well, we're running on three issues at a time concept, reading, and then delivery of a third one. So yeah, we're always so many things going on. But we did it, and you did it with grace and ease. So thank you very much. Speaking of grace and ease, I love your choice mapping. You started this out as something you did for yourself. And first of all, tell us what brought that about, and then how did you realize it could transform how coaches can work with their clients?

Kim DeYoung 3:02

Ah, what a journey. It is actually more than 10 years ago that Choice Mapping is something that I was making up. It didn't even have a name at the time. At the time, it was a way for me to both make sense of my own choices and those of friends, family, clients that I was exploring their choices. And never did I consider that I would share the process that I used. What I thought I would, what I knew that I was sharing was the result of what I got from the process. And it wasn't probably until five or six years into the writing of my book that one of my editors said, Kim, I think people may be interested in this mapping process. Maybe you need to figure out how to teach it to them. So then it was like, okay, I have to sit on my shoulder to watch how I do what I do so that I could teach it. And then that got incorporated into the book, which is which is another interesting story. But now even take it a step further in terms of how did I realize it would be valuable for coaches. After the book was published, which is now almost three years ago, I led a program that took the concepts deeper. And interestingly, 70% of the people in that program were coaches who then came to me to say, we're thrilled to learn about how to use this for ourselves, but could you teach us how to use it as coaches? We are seeing the value of that. And that's when it was like, hmm, how do I figure out how to do that? So it's been this very interesting unfolding process. I did not have the vision when it all started, and it's really um unfolded through conversations, through being open, through listening to what people need. And that's that's been the fun of it.

Garry Schleifer 4:46

And saying yes to requests.

Kim DeYoung 4:48

A hundred percent. 100%, yes.

Garry Schleifer 4:52

Wow. Well, cool. What an interesting journey to be just have the universe show you the way in a way. That's great. Well, okay, so let's get into this choice mapping for those that have not seen the article yet. What to walk us through what you're doing? You could use the example that you gave, or if you have a different one, that's fine too.

What A Choice Map Looks Like

Kim DeYoung 5:13

Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the root, let's take it to the individual level. Let's take you, the person who wants to understand yourself better. Choice mapping becomes a tool for you to flesh out the details of your choice. Let's imagine you want to look back at a choice you made. You want to understand who you were, what was getting in your way, what you hoped from the choice. The map affords you the ability to basically have a QA with yourself. You're having this internal dialogue of you ask a question, you capture an answer, you ask a question, you capture, and you're really using your intuition to guide the process of the continued inquiry. A bit different than journaling, whereas when we journal, we tend to free write, we capture a lot of words. The concept of the map is actually capturing your words so that they're a bit more succinct and having this ability to go back to your map at any time. Like I happen to map using a mind mapping tool. People do it in their journals, how however it works for you. One of the reasons I like doing it digitally, it makes it really easy for me to go back to have, let's imagine I spend 20 minutes working on a particular map about a particular choice, and I come back a day or two, a week later, whatever, and I want to look at the words that I captured and to assess do those ring true as truth for what I'm looking at? And if not, I tweak them. If they're good, I keep going. I may see places that I want to expand. That's actually the most beautiful part of the map is the expansiveness, is this realization of you've you've imagine a circle in the center where you're capturing your choice and you're exploring various questions, which become the spokes of your map, and then your answers become the legs, and the legs can grow and grow to whatever depth you would like. You have this ability to go in at any moment and ask a deeper question, expand on a leg, see where it goes. Like it becomes a vehicle to capture your truth. So that's the basics of it, and it can be used to look back at choices you have made or choices you are making.

Garry Schleifer 7:19

Oh, thank you for that distinction because I was gonna say it sounds very much about the past, but there you go.

Using Maps With Coaching Clients

Kim DeYoung 7:25

Well, and interestingly, when I began in 2014 doing this, I did 29 maps my first year with others, and 27 of them were looking back. And it wasn't until the 28th person showed up and said to me, you know, Kim, I'd love to look at something I'm considering choosing. I said, let's go, let's figure it out. And that opened up the path. And I would say, when I work with clients as an example, more often than not, we're looking forward. Yeah. But there's immense value for yourself to look back. I mean, I have gone into every choice I've made, probably from 20 onward, to really understand kind of who I was, what was getting in my way, what do I want to take from what I observed about myself, maybe even as young as 20, 25, that I want to make sure I bring forth into who I am today. What choices may I have made that I'm not proud of that I need to heal and deal with so that I move forward? So it's it's a beautiful process individually. Now imagine you're a coach. And now imagine you're working with a client and you want to support them to understand again, past, present, future choices. Many coaches, of course, take notes, some do not, whatever. But the map kind of keeps you honest. It keeps you very focused, kind of where you are. It makes it very clear at a visual level where there might be an unanswered question and an unasked question. So we the coaches are the ones who want to be asking the questions. And sometimes it just becomes apparent when you're looking at it visually to say to yourself as a coach, oh wait, there's another place I could go deeper. Let me let me explore this. And it just supports you in that process.

Garry Schleifer 9:20

So do you like start out with your clients and say, I'm going to be using this tool, or do you use it when you feel it's right? Like, do you always use the tool?

Kim DeYoung 9:29

That's such a great question. No, I do not always use it. And if I do, I always tell them. So in my process, usually when I begin with a brand new client, I do something which I call a possibility experience, in which I am basically meeting with them to explore the choice of what they want to step into. So let's and and it could be a version of I choose to explore what's next in my career. Let's just take that as an example. And in that, we are looking to understand like, why do they want that? What could become possible if they begin exploring that, as well as what could hold them back. But what I'm really doing in that inquiry is gathering so much information for them that then becomes a benchmark as we now move forward in our coaching. So imagine that in that first, maybe even second call, we get really clear on a choice that they want to own, corresponding actions that they want to take. And what happens probably, you know, seven times out of 10, we're down, we're into third or fourth call, and something shifts. And they come back to me. They say, Kim, you know that choice that I made? Something happened. I'm not sure that I want, I'm I want to focus there. I'm like, okay, I'm not here to judge that you change your choice. I'm just here to support you or to stay clear on what is the choice that matters, but it helps us to go back to that original map as the benchmark to say, okay, this is what you said a couple of weeks ago. Does that feel true? Have circumstances changed? It just becomes a really helpful place. And there may be times along the continuity of working with a client where maybe another choice really shows up that's kind of big and meaty, and it just warrants a map. And then I'll sometimes say to a client, why don't we spend a bit of time like really digging into this particular choice? And the mapping of it, what it does for me as the coach is it really forces me to stay in curiosity mode. So I am there, I'm not there to fix, I'm just there to uncover, to hopefully help them to see what they haven't seen, all of that, and and then make a bit of sense of it.

Garry Schleifer 11:41

Yeah. Wow, that's great. And I can just picture it too, and it's yeah, to keep you on track, if you will. And I have to refer to the article because you give a really good example of how you started out with a client with one choice and for the future, and then it turned out to be something else as a result of going down the path of that original one. Yes, right.

Kim DeYoung 12:02

And without it's not unusual. Yeah, that is not that unusual. Where, you know, interestingly, one of the things I'm very strict with with a client is getting the clarity of the words of what is the choice that they want to own as we begin the process. So it could be I choose to explore what's next. It could be I choose to um explore what brings me joy in my life, something like that. And I want to get the words to be something that they resonate with. But to your point that you're just bringing up, that happened in this article, I had done that with this particular client. But then as we kind of got into the meet, it became clear that the choice that she thought she was exploring was not really what it was. And once we changed the words of the choice, that now changed the exploration because we're referring to the words of the new choice. So that really changed the conversation.

Garry Schleifer 12:54

Yeah. Wow. And I guess having an electronic tool helps you rearrange everything too.

Kim DeYoung 13:01

No doubt. No doubt.

Garry Schleifer 13:02

I'm more of a drawing person, you know. Hey, okay. I'm also that's exactly me. When you ask me a question, I usually give you the first answer. And so I always advise my coach at the moment, you gotta ask the why again and maybe even a third time, right? And that that that sounds like exactly what this tool will offer in the process, which is just what we do in coaching. So really just a different methodology. Um, I'm also one of those coaches that'll just kind of run with stuff um without uh, you know, without any guardrails. What's the biggest mistake coaches make when they first try choice mapping?

Kim DeYoung 13:44

You know, I would say the biggest mistake is first of all, wanting it to be perfect. That's number one. This is this is an art. Mapping is an art, there is no science to it. You know, I could basically give the same introduction to 10 coaches and they would all do it differently, and that is all fine. So I think there is a an element of forgiveness for yourself as the coach. Like this is a tool that is helping me to stay present and deeply curious with my client, which is what I know that I want. That's kind of the the high goal. And how may I do it? And will it be perfect and absolutely not? And like that's okay. So that that's one thing. I think I know I can share, I struggle with this. There are times in coach mode that I'm truly the coach and I'm really just inquiry, inquiry. And then there are times I just want to tell them what I think the answer is. You know, we get caught in that list.

Garry Schleifer 14:42

Yes, yeah, there's those days.

Kim DeYoung 14:45

Are we the consultant? And there's a space for both, and of course, and there's a space for asking permission of the client, like, can I tell you what I see? You know, can I can I direct you? Um, so I think there is um, you know, I wouldn't say that it's a mistake, but it's sometimes coaches jumping into fix-it mode. You know, they hear a client beginning to speak and you know, they want to go down the like, let me tell you how to fix this thing that you're telling me, or how to do this thing. And I think we all know as coaches that in theory that's not really our responsibility. It can be depending on the type of coach that we are or the relationship with the client, but you know, to sort of have that honest conversation with yourself of are you the coach who's trusting that the client has the answers? And or are you maybe a combination of yes, you trust that they have the answers and you know that you want to impart your wisdom when you have it?

Five Core Questions To Explore

Garry Schleifer 15:39

Yeah. Well, in essence, you're just recording in a diff with a different methodology. That's all. You're still retaining, recalling, recording what they're saying. You're particular about the words I would be too, with or without a map. Um, I want to remind your listeners that you give back to the point of following uh a system that every coach will do differently, but you very clearly say a practice you can use this week. In your next session, begin by inviting your client to complete this sentence. I choose to. So there's the choice right there, and place that at the center of your notes. Move through the core questions, which are also in the article, and just like any other coaching, notice what catches your attention and follow that thread with another question. So it's all very, you know, it's not it's it's beautiful, but it's not rocket science, just different way of.

Kim DeYoung 16:33

It's not it, it is not. It's a, you know, and I just had an as an experience recently with a client where, in general, you know, and you see this in the article, there are five core questions to always ask. Not that you can't go tangential and have 10 others that come about, but the five core questions become, you know, now that you've assessed the choice, why does the choice matter to you? What could hold you back from stepping into that choice? Who do you want to show up to be as you make that choice? What becomes possible for you and what actions you'll take, will you take? And there are times in a particular conversation that I don't get to all of it. And that's okay. You know, sometimes we may have spent so much time on the why does the choice matter, which and or what fears could hold you back, that so much meat comes up and there's story and things, and you know, and I'm making the judgment call that I think it's worth hearing the story because I feel like there are kernels that I want to kind of pull apart a little bit more. And I'll get to the other questions at a later point in another call. Like it's it's fine. Like again, this is where it's a beautiful art.

Healing Shame Through Past Choices

Garry Schleifer 17:40

Yeah, exactly. Um, you're bringing up examples, and I remember reading the book, but I want to hear from you again. What was the most amazing thing you learned about yourself when you first started doing choice mapping or since you started using choice mapping? Because you had some really good examples in there about looking back and going, what? Yeah.

Kim DeYoung 18:04

I did a I put my life under a microscope for the few years that I was really in it. And, you know, again, looking back at who I was in at college, but also I had had um, I began choice mapping, and then this is at a personal level. I had been divorced and I had a long-term relationship after that divorce, and I had some things to look at about myself in terms of how I had come out of that relationship, some things that were called out to me that I could have chosen to say, Oh, I'm not gonna look at that. But I made the choice. I choose to look at what was said that I want to understand, I want to go there. I'm gonna go to the deep, dark, dirty place and look at it. And not always easy, but so beneficial. And, you know, and I'm recalling a particular map that I might have worked on for over a month because I would flesh out some ideas and then I would go back. And, you know, I was probably working on a map concurrently while I might have been in some therapy, and I'm processing the words and the things. And this map ultimately, kind of when I'd completed it, was really um an opportunity for me to see how I was feeling, how I was healing, how I was moving forth with whatever I had learned from this situation. I mean it's invaluable, absolutely invaluable. And I'll share something really beautiful. This is very real time. I was just having a conversation with um a young adult in my life who was struggling with um an assortment of shame issues around some past choices. And I was hearing it, all the stuff. And I just thought about this this morning. I thought I want to take them through a map. I really want to guide them to explore what some of the choices that they made and and maybe some of the things that they didn't do that are causing them to feel shame, maybe even things they did do. Because if they don't get to the bottom of that and ultimately heal it, that is gonna be like the biggest piece of luggage that they carry around with them. So being able to come in as coach and say, okay, I see you're sitting in with shame about a particular choice you made. Let's let's pull it apart, let's dissect it. So I've having done it so much for myself, I now feel great confidence to go in and support others. And it's invaluable. I mean, just invaluable.

Garry Schleifer 20:32

I promise I will be taking that course.

Notes AI And Reflecting Client Words

Kim DeYoung 20:37

I'll welcome you whenever you're ready.

Garry Schleifer 20:39

I can't wait because it's you know, it calls to me in a way that is logical for me, right? So I could very much see myself and also retention. You know, they talk a lot now about being worried about AI taking your role as a coach. Well, you're kind of AIing yourself by having a rec record in a map of the things that your client said, which you would sometimes leave up to now to AI and things like that. So making making us a bit better than the machine.

Kim DeYoung 21:11

Well, and I and you're bringing up something so interesting. I one of the things I love doing for my clients is providing them not with a a recap like that AI could do, but something where I take the words that they've shared and I kind of bring it to another level. And of course I use AI to support me to do that. And then I add my own magic to kind of elevate it. But having their words, like their gems of wisdom, that I can reflect them back to themselves. I mean, that's so invaluable for them to hear their own words as part of that, and then for me to add, you know, my layer of insight over and above. And it just I feel like it's continuing to take the coaching relationship and their experience to a deeper level.

Book Course Certification And How To Reach Kim

Garry Schleifer 22:00

Yeah. Wow. That's brilliant. Great idea. Yeah. I would be one of those people. That is like those word clouds, you know, that you see they do in in programs. Yeah, amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in the conversation?

Kim DeYoung 22:18

Oh, many things. Let's go. You know, I'd certainly love them to read the book, no doubt. The book is the beginning. The book lets them understand. I mean, a coach is going to love this because they're gonna see this, they're gonna not, they're gonna see it through other people's experiences, but they're gonna be able to see themselves in it. And then if it's interesting, of course, you know, I teach a course called Choice Mapping Mastery, which is at the individual level. And that's beautiful. And so here's the other cool thing. You mentioned that I'm looking to create a certification for coaches. I'm looking to get my first beta group together to do this together, to have a cohort of those who say, Kim, this sounds amazing. Can I be one of those who comes along with you as you build the plane as you fly it? You know, that kind of thing. That's the experience. And my vision is to do that shortly. And, you know, for those who hear this and are drawn to it, reach out to me. I would love, you know, the audience uh that you speak to is exactly the audience that would probably love to go through a certification to learn to take this deeper.

Garry Schleifer 23:29

Well, they have to do the choice course first before the certification.

Kim DeYoung 23:32

Yes, yes, it's included because you really have to do that. So ultimately the beta. Ultimately, when one joins the certification, they will have had to do the individual first. At the moment, the individual is accessible. You need to understand it for yourself because until to have gone through it yourself and to see the power of it, then it makes it that much more valuable for yourself as a coach, figuring out how to now bring it out there.

Garry Schleifer 24:02

The Book of Choice.

Kim DeYoung 24:03

Yes.

Garry Schleifer 24:04

And for those people who do want to know, what's the best way to reach you?

Kim DeYoung 24:09

Best way is via my website at kimdeyoung.com. You can contact me there. You can get to me on all the channels, all the ways.

Garry Schleifer 24:17

She's everywhere.

Kim DeYoung 24:18

Hunt me down, I'm there.

Garry Schleifer 24:20

I'm very accessible. That's great. Yeah, and definitely read the article and uh and reach out to to Kim, as you can tell. She's very open to talking to people and finding out more about what their needs are and why they choose what they choose. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode, Kim. We really appreciate it, and also all the great work you did supporting me in curating this issue.

Kim DeYoung 24:45

Thank you so much for inviting me in. I love it. It's a beautiful experience.

Garry Schleifer 24:51

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app, most likely the one that got you here. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this video, you can sign up for free your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right corner of our screen. If you're in listen only mode and driving safely, when you're done, go to choice- online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.