Episode 193: The Science of Choice with guest, Irena O'Brien

Your client’s “I can’t decide” might not be a mindset problem. It might be a nervous system problem.

We sit down with cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Irena O’Brien, founder of the Neuroscience School, to unpack a deceptively simple idea with big implications for coaching: choices are shaped by nervous system state, not just logic. When the brain is under threat or running low on energy, it prioritizes survival and efficiency, which can shrink perspective, limit creativity, and make even small decisions feel heavy. When we understand the brain as a prediction engine rather than a recorder of reality, indecision starts to look less like stubbornness and more like an adaptive signal worth listening to.

We dig into Boyatzis’ Intentional Change Theory and why beginning with the client’s ideal self can shift state fast. That identity-first approach can activate a Positive Emotional Attractor, support parasympathetic regulation, and open up the default mode network for imagination and big-picture thinking. We also talk about what happens when coaching starts with the problem, how the sympathetic stress response can narrow attention into “task mode,” and why that can unintentionally box clients into short-term fixes.

You’ll also hear practical tools for distinguishing fear, habit, values, and identity alignment, plus a research-backed look at decision fatigue: after a long day of hard cognitive work, people drift toward easier choices and immediate rewards. We end with actionable ways to protect cognitive capacity, break goals into small wins, and create a steady “dopamine drip” that supports follow-through. If you want brain-based coaching strategies, nervous system regulation insights, and better decision making for yourself and your clients, press play.

Subscribe for more, share this with a coach or leader who’s navigating big choices, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Watch the full interview by clicking here. 

Find the full article here.

Learn more about Irena here.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Garry Schleifer 0:08

Welcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where we bring you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into this latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author who wrote it, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and make a real difference in our clients' lives, which is what we love to do. Remember, this is your go-to resource for all things coaching. But for now, let's dive in. In today's episode, I'm speaking with cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Irena O'Brien, who's the author of an article in our latest issue, The Power of Choice. Her article is entitled The Science of Choice: How Clients Nervous System State Shapes Every Coaching Conversation. A bit about Irena. She's a Cognitive Neuroscientist and the founder of The Neuroscience School. She specializes in translating brain science into practical tools for coaches and helping professionals with a focus on the neuroscience of change, decision making, like choice, and nervous system regulation. She is the host of the Neuroscience of Coaching podcast, ranked in the top 5% globally, where she interviews researchers and practitioners on the science behind effective coaching. She teaches internationally and works with experienced coaches who want deeper scientific insight to support meaningful, sustainable change in their clients, which is exactly what her article talks about. Welcome back, Irena. Good to have you here again.

Irena O'Brien 1:57

Oh, it's so great to be here, Garry. Thank you for inviting me.

Garry Schleifer 2:01

Oh, well, you know, this is the thing, listeners, it's when Irena writes, she automatically kind of gets bumped up to the top of the list of acceptable articles because she comes from that neuroscience perspective. And that's one area that, as we were talking about in the green room, not a lot of people speak about. So we're very thankful to have her contributing on a regular basis and being a force of neuroscience learning in the coaching world and obviously the world in general. So, what made you decide to write for this particular issue?

Irena O'Brien 2:37

I'm really passionate. Well, you know, I'm passionate about neuroscience.

Garry Schleifer 2:41

I know.

Irena O'Brien 2:42

Yes. And so any chance that I get to talk about nervous system regulation, how our biology really informs our choice. And by biology, I mean we're a mind-body system. So it it is our biology, right? It informs our choices. Absolutely. And most people don't know that.

Garry Schleifer 3:10

Yeah. Well, thank you for revealing that in the article and getting in depth with things like intentional change theory and and what's really going on. Speaking of what's going on, you said that choice is shaped by the nervous system state, not just logic. What does that change about how we understand indecision?

The Predictive Brain And Survival

Irena O'Brien 3:32

Let me start with the purpose of the brain. How does that sound?

Garry Schleifer 3:38

That sounds perfect. I love it.

Irena O'Brien 3:40

Yeah, that frames the conversation.

Garry Schleifer 3:42

Thank you.

Irena O'Brien 3:43

So most people think that the brain's main job is to help us think clearly and make good decisions and perform at a high level, right? But that's not the brain's primary job. The brain's first job is survival, and the second job is managing energy. And so that means your brain is constantly asking two questions, usually outside your awareness. Am I safe? And do I have enough energy and resources for what's coming next? And to answer those questions quickly, the brain doesn't wait for life to happen and then responds, it predicts, it uses past experience to make the best guess about what is happening now, what is about to happen next, and what the body will need in order to handle it. So, in that sense, the brain is not like a camera recording reality, it's like a prediction engine trying to stay ahead of reality.

Garry Schleifer 4:45

Wow. So in your article, you talk about the parasympatic nervous system and and the body. Can you just enlighten us a little bit more about that? I know that's one of your favorite topics in some of your presentations and workshops.

Irena O'Brien 5:07

Yeah. Did you want me to go through like Boyatzis Intentional Change Theory?

Garry Schleifer 5:11

Actually, you know what? That'd be a good idea. How does that reflect into this conversation?

Irena O'Brien 5:16

Yeah, I think I think that's a great place to start. So according to Boyatzis Intentional Change Theory, and that is, sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought here. It's all research based. He said that or he's found in his research that we should start coaching conversations by helping the client identify with what he calls the ideal self. And the ideal self is who we want to become, so it reflects our values also and an identity. And everyone has that, and even if you're not aware of it, you still have that. And when you identify with your ideal self, I'm gonna call it the ideal self, but it's really bigger than that. It activates the positive emotional attractor. And the positive emotional attractor is a self-sustaining series of positive emotions that keep coming up when you identify with that. It activates the parasympathetic nervous system, so that's the rest and relaxation response, and then also it activates the

Ideal Self Activates Better Thinking

Irena O'Brien 6:40

default mode network, and that's the network for expansive thinking, imagination, creative thinking. So when you identify with identity first, right, identity first, and start making decisions from that space, you have full access to your prefrontal cortex, and you can use all that creativity and imagination to start making your decisions. But if you start coaching conversations with, and most coaching conversations I think start this way is what are we solving for today? So you're going straight into the problem.

Garry Schleifer 7:19

Wow, wow, true.

Irena O'Brien 7:21

True, right? You're going straight into the problem. So that activates the negative emotional attractor, which is the opposite of the positive emotional attractor. It's a self-sustaining series of negative emotions. It activates the sympathetic nervous system, which is our stress response. When we're in a stress response, we have reduced access to the prefrontal cortex.

Garry Schleifer 7:44

So shut down mode.

Irena O'Brien 7:47

Yeah, to a lesser or greater extent, depending on how stressed you are.

Garry Schleifer 7:52

Right.

Irena O'Brien 7:53

And it also activates the task positive network, which is great for getting things which increases focus, but it shuts out the creative part of and the imagination part and the bigger picture thinking. It's very narrow thinking. So, yes, both those things are important. But when you first activate your identity and your ideal self, it also creates an energy that the task positive network then can use, right? Because the task positive network consumes energy, whereas the default mode network creates energy.

Garry Schleifer 8:36

Well, that makes sense.

Irena O'Brien 8:38

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 8:38

Okay, but you left a question on the table, or for me anyway.

Irena O'Brien 8:42

Okay.

Garry Schleifer 8:43

How should you start a coaching conversation?

Irena O'Brien 8:47

You should start a coaching conversation on a positive note. Right. And one way to start is what went well this week rather than what didn't go well, right? Like what are we solving for? And start with identity, like who do you want to become? Everyone has that, right? And why who do you want to become is because you're always striving to become something that's bigger than who you are now.

Garry Schleifer 9:19

Who are you striving to become, Irena?

Irena O'Brien 9:24

Who am I striving to become?

Garry Schleifer 9:26

Yeah.

Irena O'Brien 9:27

I absolutely love the work I do. So I'm striving to, and another thing that's really important to me is treating people fairly and with respect. And as far as the neuroscience part goes, it's about getting this word out there so that more people can use it to help change their lives. And I teach coaches and helping professionals so that they can then take this knowledge and use it in coaching their clients so that the clients can start living the kind of lives that they want.

Garry Schleifer 10:05

Yeah. Don't we all? And you are that person, Irena. You are the it, you know, there's when a group gets together, it's a movement, but I don't know if an individual is, you know, you are a movement.

Starting Coaching With Positive Energy

Garry Schleifer 10:20

A force, that's what I would say. You are a force for good in the realm of neuroscience and all of the values that you hold dear. I've count on you for that every time I talk to you and every time I meet you. So thank you for giving that example.

Irena O'Brien 10:39

Well, thank you, Garry. And the thing about neuroscience is people think it's just up there in the head, but it's not because there's so much learning from the neuroscience, and I make it practical. And that's one thing I really believe in right now and I strive to do is to make it practical for people.

Garry Schleifer 10:58

Yeah, and that you do. I've attended some of your workshops and very practical and fun too. So if anyone gets a chance to meet with Irena, please do so. And actually, you do we do regularly through choice because we just love her so and we love what she does. So there you go.

Irena O'Brien 11:16

I love you too, Garry. Me too. And we get to meet at these workshops too. So yeah.

Garry Schleifer 11:24

Every time we get together, it's like, okay, when are we seeing each other again? When are we seeing each other again? There's our positive start to a conversation. Where am I gonna see you again? That lights me up. Goes with the positive versus the negative. So staying on that theme of positive versus negative, how can someone tell whether a choice is coming from fear, habit, values, or identity?

Irena O'Brien 11:46

Your body will know. Your body reacts first, and so your body will know. There's kind of what I call kind of like a hiccup, not a real hiccup, but that your body will know. And so it really is about then evaluating it. Where is that coming from? There's something that has come up, and it's made you step back a bit, right? And you start asking questions like where is that coming from? Is it coming from from fear? Oh I think the other thing that I didn't, I did mention it though, about the predictive brain so and that the brain's first job is really to safety and to conserve

Spotting Fear Versus Identity Alignment

Irena O'Brien 12:45

energy. And so when that feeling comes up, that glitch comes up that sent to the brain, and the brain decides what it means and it uses past experience to decide what it means. And so your past experience could be that in that situation it produced fear before. And so because the brain, one of the brain's purposes is to conserve energy, it's gonna predict, okay, we're gonna we're gonna predict fear again because that conserves energy. It's quick and easy to predict the fear again. So it's about evaluating and and what is it about the fear? Is it that you're not aligned with it? Or is it a decision that you're trying to make that is let me give you an example. So I have a coach who had been encouraging me to develop a certain program. I'd been working on it, but I kept postponing the launch date. And every week I would say, Well, I'm gonna do it next week. And then I'm gonna do it next week. And I just didn't do it. And I thought it's because I have a problem with uncertainty. And the thing about uncertainty too, is that it consumes energy, right? And the brain likes to conserve energy. I was making a moral judgment of it myself, but I just have a hard time with uncertainty. But then my mentor, when I brought that up to my mentor only last week, he said, No, with what you're trying to do, there's like he knows me well. There's too much uncertainty there for you. And so I canned the project, I'm not doing it. But the more I thought about it, and I realized that it wasn't the uncertainty that was tripping me up, is it was that I wasn't aligned with it. So it did not reflect my identity, it didn't reflect who I wanted to become. And so uncertainty is also fear, right? Because the brain doesn't like uncertainty.

Garry Schleifer 15:03

Wow, what a great example. Reminds me of a few things that I've said yes to and then I said no to.

Irena O'Brien 15:10

But you can see how it takes the moral judgment away from it. Yeah, and it could also be the reason is that you just don't have the capacity, you know, the energetic capacity. Maybe you didn't sleep well the night before. Maybe your nervous system is running on empty and you just don't have the capacity today or ever, right? Maybe you'll have the capacity tomorrow to do it. And we all have those days where we have low energy and we're trying to make these big decisions with low energy.

Garry Schleifer 15:39

Right.

Irena O'Brien 15:40

Not a good combination.

Garry Schleifer 15:42

No, not at all, not at all. No, that well said, thank you very much.

Irena O'Brien 15:48

I have more to add on that.

Garry Schleifer 15:49

Oh, please.

Irena O'Brien 15:51

Yeah, so there's an elegant research study. I can't remember who the author is, but it is on my blog. They had people do tasks in a lab for six hours. One group did easy cognitive tasks,

Decision Fatigue And Energy Limits

Irena O'Brien 16:10

and the second group did hard cognitive tasks for six hours, which kind of resembles a work day.

Garry Schleifer 16:18

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Irena O'Brien 16:20

And so, I mean, that was their purpose. And periodically throughout the day, they would have them make decisions, and the decisions were either immediate reward or later reward, and also was it an easy decision? Some of them were easy decisions, some of them were hard decisions. And what they found was as the day went on, the people who were doing the hard cognitive tasks all day, their decisions became more immediate reward and easier because they just no longer had the cognitive capacity or the energetic capacity to make these hard decisions.

Garry Schleifer 16:57

Oh, very interesting.

Irena O'Brien 16:58

Those who were doing easy cognitive work, their decision making did not change throughout the day. And so most of us are in the second group, in the hard cognitive work group. And so when you're trying to make these important decisions at the end of the day, you know, these immediate reward and easy decisions might not be the best decisions in the circumstances.

Garry Schleifer 17:25

Wow, good pointing.

Irena O'Brien 17:27

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 17:27

Good pointing. You know, that's probably well, not probably, support some of the other authors in the issue that said that when leaders are struggling to make big decisions, stick to some smaller decisions that they can live with, might go along exactly hand in hand with what you just said around that study.

Irena O'Brien 17:49

Yes, and I'm a big proponent of breaking things down into small tasks because sometimes that's all that's needed. Maybe what you're trying to do is just really big and your brain reacts and goes, oh no, no, I can't do that. But if you break it down into small tasks, it might be able to do it. It might let you do it having that nervous system glitch or have only a small glitch and not a big glitch.

Garry Schleifer 18:19

And what happens with your brain when you accomplish small tasks over and over, you get a release of dopamine. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Irena O'Brien 18:28

So I know someone who called it a dopamine drip. So dopamine drip how you is yeah, the dopamine drip, how you access that is you break down your work into small tasks that you can win at, that you're successful at and you can just keep stacking them all day long, and you'll have that dopamine. And it actually works if you start your day with a small task, with a small task that you can win at,

Small Wins And The Dopamine Drip

Irena O'Brien 18:55

that you can succeed at, and it releases that dopamine, it can set you up for a really, a really productive day.

Garry Schleifer 19:01

Wow.

Irena O'Brien 19:02

That's not taxing on the nervous system.

Garry Schleifer 19:04

Yeah, exactly. Oh, I long for those days when there are only small decisions to make all day long. Well, thank you so much, Irena. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation? Other than a sign up for your neuroscience school.

Irena O'Brien 19:27

Yeah, I would like them to do that. Oh my gosh, this is gonna be on the podcast.

Garry Schleifer 19:35

Yes.

Irena O'Brien 19:36

I did send you the link. I do have a download. I did send you the link, but I forget what it is.

Garry Schleifer 19:46

I love it because the decision was made, the action was taken, and now we just rely on Nancy and myself to make sure it's there. So, folks, just click on down below this podcast and you'll find the mystery surprise gift that Irena has given to us and won't tell us about.

Irena O'Brien 20:06

There are well, no, there are there are two in there, and one of them is about 10 coaching strategies that coaches can use that that use immediately that will make a difference to your clients.

Garry Schleifer 20:21

Excellent.

Irena O'Brien 20:22

And the next one is brain-based coaching. So it is about a little bit Boyatzis Intentional Change Theory and how to structure a coaching conversation.

Garry Schleifer 20:34

Awesome.

Irena O'Brien 20:35

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 20:36

Excellent. And I have to say, kudos to your Sunday Brain Bites. For anybody who wants to stay connected to neuroscience and Irena, at the very least, sign up for the Sunday Brain Bites. They are such cool snippets that relate to how the brain works and little studies and things like that that Irena accumulates during her week and ships us out to us every Sunday. I love reading those.

Irena O'Brien 21:06

And I love doing those. Actually, I mean

Downloads, Sunday Brain Bites, And How To Connect

Irena O'Brien 21:10

I could make it even longer. I could put in 10 things in there instead of five or six.

Garry Schleifer 21:15

Six or whatever is enough. That's enough.

Irena O'Brien 21:16

Yeah.

Garry Schleifer 21:17

Yeah. No. Yeah. Well, you know, and then save it for next week.

Irena O'Brien 21:23

And next week, though, there's always new interesting stuff that shows up.

Garry Schleifer 21:27

That's how fast all that neuroscience we're learning more and more all the time, right?

Irena O'Brien 21:32

Yes.

Garry Schleifer 21:32

Yeah. That's great. Irena, what's the best way for people to reach you?

Irena O'Brien 21:38

neuroscienceschool.com.

Garry Schleifer 21:40

Perfect.

Irena O'Brien 21:41

There, yeah. And you already know if you download the little gifts that I told you about in the link that Garry will put in the show notes, then you'll get on my list also. And so you'll receive the Sunday Brain Bites. And then also every second week or so I send out a blog post. I write a blog post, and so it's some new learning, some new study, or just a different way of looking at things.

Garry Schleifer 22:12

Awesome. And of course, updates on your latest podcast episodes. Yes, there's that too. So lots, lots very generous of you, Irena. Thank you very much, and thanks for being here, too.

Irena O'Brien 22:25

Well, thank you, Garry, for inviting me. It's always such a pleasure to chat with you.

Garry Schleifer 22:29

And you too, and I can't wait to get together in person soon.

Irena O'Brien 22:33

Yep, hopefully.

Garry Schleifer 22:35

That's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching this video, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right corner of my screen. If you are in listen only mode and you are not driving and you're no longer running on the treadmill, go to choice- online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.