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Episode 202: Coaching At The Threshold with guest, Michael Shoultz
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Feeling stuck is not always a sign you’re failing. Sometimes it’s a sign you’re crossing a threshold where the old version of your leadership no longer fits and the next one hasn’t come into focus yet. That space can feel restless, urgent, and confusing, which is exactly why many of us try to force clarity and rush into an action plan.
We sit down with leadership coach and organizational consultant Michael Schoultz, author of “Coaching at the Threshold: Supporting Clients in Times of Uncertainty,” from choice Magazine’s Coaching in Chaos issue. Together, we unpack how to tell the difference between avoidance and real transition, what patterns to listen for beneath a client’s words, and why familiar coaching tools like goals and next steps can suddenly feel ineffective when identity is shifting.
A central takeaway is simple and surprisingly powerful: regulation before clarity. When anxiety and overwhelm tighten the nervous system, options disappear and decision making becomes reactive. We talk about slowing the conversation down, framing uncertainty as transition rather than failure, holding complexity with steadiness, and helping clients choose aligned action instead of rushed action. We also explore the Goldilocks question of timing so reflection doesn’t become another form of hiding.
If you coach leaders through complexity, organizational change, or high-stakes decisions, this conversation will give you language, mindset, and practical moves you can use right away. Subscribe, share this with a coach or leader who needs steadiness, and leave a review with the moment that changed how you’ll handle uncertainty.
Watch the full interview by clicking here.
Read the full article here.
Learn more about Michael here.
* A gift for Beyond the Page listeners, free and no sign-up required. A one-page set of "threshold-safe" coaching questions for those moments when a client is between identities — designed to slow the rush to clarity and help them find orientation before outcome.
Grab your free issue of choice Magazine here - https://choice-online.com/
Welcome And Guest Introduction
Garry SchleiferWelcome to Beyond the Page, the official podcast of choice, the magazine of professional coaching, where it brings you amazing insights and in-depth features you just won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Garry Schleifer, and I'm excited to expand your learning as we dive into the latest article, have a chat with this brilliant author over here, and uncover the learnings that are transforming the coaching world. When you get a chance, join our vibrant community of coaching professionals as we explore groundbreaking ideas, share expert tips and techniques, and do what we coaches like to do, make a real difference in our clients' lives. In today's episode, I'm speaking with leadership coach Michael Shoultz, who is the author of an article in our latest issue, Coaching in Chaos. His article is entitled Coaching at the Threshold: Supporting Clients in Times of Uncertainty.
Garry SchleiferA little bit about Michael. He holds a PhD. He's an organizational consultant and specializing in leadership development, organizational transition, and culture change. Drawing from behavioral science, systems thinking, and reflective practice, he works with executives and teams navigating complexity and uncertainty. He has facilitated leadership development initiatives across corporate, nonprofit, and community sectors, and has contributed to professional training and coaching and team development. His work explores how identity, regulation, and values alignment influence decision making and sustainable leadership effectiveness. So, welcome Michael, and in a way, it's no surprise you wrote for us this time.
Michael ShoultzWelcome. Thank you for having me, Garry. I'm really excited to be with you. Appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your podcast listeners.
Garry SchleiferYeah, and thank you for a really great article. For those listening who may or may not have read it, you'll notice there's lot of support for the coach. So thank you. That's one of those ways it helps us pick articles, is if you have actionable items. So, any writers out there listening, you know how Michael made it work. Well, Michael, let's get right into it because I was rereading this morning and thoughts came up in my head.
What A Threshold Really Means
Garry SchleiferBut tell us what exactly is the threshold and how's it different from client just being stuck or stalled?
Michael ShoultzOkay. Well, I think we all have had moments when we say, I feel stuck. But over the years, I've become curious about that word. Sometimes people really are stuck and they are avoiding something, maybe they're procrastinating, they're spinning their wheels, whatever that might look like for them. But sometimes what's happening is something that's is completely different.
Garry SchleiferRight.
Michael ShoultzA threshold, okay, a threshold is that in-between place where the old version of your life or your identity no longer fits, but the new one hasn't fully formed yet. So I think about it, I describe it as a doorway. You left one room, but you haven't stepped comfortably into the next one. And that's why it feels so unsettling. The important distinction here is this. Stuck usually sounds like a problem to solve. A threshold is a passage to move through. It's not that nothing is happening, it's that space very important thing is happening beneath beneath the surface of the behavior. And it's because it's happening at the level of identity, not just behavior. You just can't strategize your way through it. Sometimes the wisest thing we can do is recognize that we're not broken, but we're in the process of becoming.
Garry SchleiferLove that. I'm gonna quote what you wrote in the article about that's the side that they were in. Familiar tools, clarifying goals, creating plans, identifying next steps may suddenly feel ineffective or premature. When this happens, it is often not a failure of the coaching process, but a signal that the client is standing in a different kind of space. The threshold.
Michael ShoultzThe threshold, yes.
Garry SchleiferYeah, that's pretty cool. So let's get practical.
Signs You Are At One
Garry SchleiferHow does a coach recognize one and how do you avoid mistaking it for resistance or let's say avoidance?
Michael ShoultzOkay, great question. So one of the things that I've learned is that rarely does a client sit in across my Zoom screen and say, Hey Michael, I'm in a threshold, you know. They usually say something much more ordinary.
Garry SchleiferRight.
Michael ShoultzThey might say, I feel stuck as you as you led with. They might say, I'm restless, or I don't know what's wrong, or everything looks good, but something just feels off. So that might be the language that they're saying, but I've learned to listen more than just the words, and it's the pattern underneath them that's really is telling. Often the people who , they aren't necessarily confused about what no longer fits. What they're confused about is that they can't yet see what's coming next, and that's what the real difference is. They know that the old way isn't working anymore, but they just don't yet trust what the new direction is unfolding and what that's gonna look like. I also notice that they're often trying to force clarity. Have you ever been around people that are myself sometimes when you're trying to force clarity and they want to figure it out quickly, and the reason they want to figure it out quickly is because uncertainty is not a comfortable place to be in, right? So that's the cue, that's the cue to me, the coach, to slow the conversation down rather than speeding it up. So when I hear the combination of restlessness, urgency, a sense that an old identity no longer fits, I start thinking that I'm not looking at a problem to solve. Rather, I'm witnessing someone standing at a threshold. So I don't listen to what clients say, I listen for the patterns underneath their words.
Garry SchleiferWow, that's brilliant. How did you come up with this idea?
Michael ShoultzWell, you know, it comes from both myself and my clients. I've witnessed lots of times and myself when I've needed this sense of urgency or clarity, and I've trying to figure out what's next. And so I've experienced that myself, and I've certainly experienced that with my clients, and it's just through the process of not seeing it as an isolated situation, but a pattern that happens that's kind of led to the evolvement of the concept.
Six Practices For Uncertainty Coaching
Garry SchleiferYeah. Well, and to remind our listeners and readers in the article, Michael's put six practices for coaching at the threshold, and he's just mentioned a few of them. They are slow the rush to meaning, regulate before resolving, normalize the in-between. I really like this because the descriptor has frame uncertainty as transition, not failure. Well said, hold complexity, support orientation, and I think really important, and one I'm learning from speaking with a lot of authors is model steadiness. Your presence sets the tone for coherence.
Michael ShoultzAbsolutely. I often you know, like somewhere, and I think it's it's probably on the threshold model that's also within the article where it gives that visual depiction of um what that looks like, the old identity, you know, and going through the threshold to the new identity. And at the bottom, um, there's a couple of um um concepts, um ideas that that I'm referenced there. And one is that idea of um regulation before clarity. And that's I think really it's become not just a practice, it's really become a concept that I think defines human behavior. But I know one of the biggest shifts in my own case coaching has been realizing that people don't usually think their way to clarity, they regulate their way to clarity. Because when we're anxious, overwhelmed, or feeling threatened, whatever it might be our nervous system narrows our attention and we start looking for the quickest answer because, as we've talked before earlier, uncertainty is not a comfortable place to be in. Sometimes it feels unsafe to be in that in that in that mindset. And so, but when we slow down, breathe.
Garry SchleiferLike I do before every podcast.
Michael ShoultzLike you do before every podcast, absolutely. I just got a big smile on my face when you did that. We create a sense of steadiness, and something interesting happens in that space. People begin to see possibilities they literally could not see moments earlier. That's why I say regulation precedes clarity. It's not just a coaching technique, it's a part of how we're wired as human beings.
Garry SchleiferYeah, a friend of mine, Janet Harvey, says a pause gives more than it takes. And I think you're referencing exactly that a pause of breath, a step back, a step aside.
Regulation Before Clarity In Chaos
Garry SchleiferThe only concern is in these days of constant, constant, constant chaos, obviously, with the coach in a coaching session, they can help regulate and put a pause in place. But I feel sorry for them trying to do that in this ongoing environment of continuous chaos.
Michael ShoultzYeah, so oftentimes, we all have difficult conversations, you know, right? And so or need to have difficult conversations. And so and oftentimes in that situation, you're rehearsing it over and over in your head, right? You know, before you're you're getting ready for it. And it feels complicated. But then for me we're talking the before we get started, I have a meditation garden in my backyard. I love nature. So I go for a walk. I too take a lot of deep breaths, you know, whether I'm in the garden or not, or getting a good night's sleep, right? We've heard the expression, oh, just sleep on it before before you have it. So that doesn't change the situation, you know. The problem, the challenge, the difficult conversation is still there, but what's different is your capacity to be with the problem, right? And so that's what I think is really so important. Yeah.
Garry SchleiferWell, thank you. You know, it's interesting because I, just before this call, had someone who contacted me and we had a conversation for steadiness, rule, not preparation, exactly like what you were talking about. And instead of in their head, they spoke it out loud. I think I should do this, I think I'm gonna do this, I think I'm gonna say this, that kind of thing. And you know, they asked for an opinion because I'm a friend, not a coach in that circumstance, but it was delightful to be witness and be sharing and be contacted for that opportunity. So us coaches, you know, we get the best and the worst of humanity, but mostly the best. We can find the best.
Michael ShoultzYeah, absolutely.
Bringing A Coaching Mindset Home
Michael ShoultzI just was in Atlanta this weekend, this past weekend for a mastermind with about 20 coaches, and one of the things that that came up in the course of that was the idea of how do we embody that coaching perspective, that coaching mindset? Because when you have a friend, a family member, an acquaintance or whatever, I mean, they're not a client of yours, right? But you know, how do you take on that coaching perspective? The people are quick to give you their thoughts and their ideas and their opinions. My mentor always tells me, you know, before you ask somebody what they think, you know, make sure that they actually do, right? So um, but anyway, that embodiment of coaching is so rich and so important, I think, for for all of us that are in this space.
Garry SchleiferWell, I don't know about you, Michael, but I'm accused of ABC, always being a coach.
Michael ShoultzSo I can just my kids are always dad, stop coaching me.
Garry SchleiferWhy, son and daughter? Because it's being effective, because you're feeling uncomfortable, because you actually have to think about something and deal with it, yeah. And then that brings the inevitable question, like when you're talking about coaching or talking with friends, and that is so how can I be of service here? And that's very much a coaching question, but it's also very much a do you want under my opinion or do you want me to just listen? Absolutely, save many a marriage with that.
Michael ShoultzOh, that's my first question now with them is when they start it's like do you want my opinion? And most of the time they say no.
Garry SchleiferSo yeah, just like that is so not your wife, she's not gonna ask your opinion. Oh, cool.
What Coaches Should Stop Doing
Garry SchleiferHey, Michael, I just want to carry on a little bit deeper on the threshold conversation. You talked about what coaches can do differently. What do you see that a coach needs to stop doing?
Michael ShoultzGood question. That's always important to look at that. You know, a lot of it is stop pushing towards getting an answer. I know when I first started coaching, I thought that was my my goal. I felt successful if I really led someone to an action plan kind of a thing. But when someone's truly at a threshold, they don't need that. That they need the clarity to step back, to get that orientation, get come from a regulated space, act taking action is important, and I still advocate for that, but it's taking aligned action is a lot better than you know taking some kind of rushed action. So I think you know, stop pushing, ask some deeper questions, and some of the questions are you know are provided in a resource that I have available for the listeners, but slow things down, help people develop that clarity from which that they can come to their own best decisions about what the outcome is and how to move forward towards it.
Garry SchleiferYeah. You know, when you said that, I could think of those six practices and just do the opposite, like what we're doing is the opposite. So, you know, if we're not helping a client regulate or we're not regulated, that's what we need to stop doing. So, in a sense, it's kind of the opposite of what we should be doing.
Michael ShoultzAbsolutely. I often think of this. Have you ever gone hiking in the woods?
Garry SchleiferYes.
Michael ShoultzOkay, ever gotten lost?
Garry SchleiferOkay, I maybe not admit it. No, I'm kidding. I don't remember getting lost. I don't go that, I don't go on that many hikes.
Michael ShoultzOkay, so maybe you're a better Boy Scout.
Garry SchleiferI just go on well-guided hiking trails.
Michael ShoultzSo anyway, whatever the analogy. When you're lost, the first thing you do isn't to start running, right? You know, to go faster. You know, you stop, you figure out where you are, and then you decide where to go. And I think coaching works the exact same way. At a threshold, people often want to move faster, move quickly, move immediately. That's where we as coaches sometimes push people towards, you know, getting that clarity and moving into the way forward, you know, part of the model in terms of figuring out, well, what are you gonna do next? Kind of a thing. So I think it's , I think it's the first thing we need to do is help understand the landscape that people are standing in before we y take that further. So yeah.
Goldilocks Timing And Aligned Action
Michael ShoultzAnd there can be, I've had a conversation over the weekend with some of my coaching colleagues and talking about well, is there danger of hanging out too long in the threshold? I mean, what's the sweet spot? Great question. I think about the Goldilocks rule, right? You know, not too hot, not too what's the just right amount of time to kind of be in that spot, and so because reflection certainly can become avoidance, right? If we're not careful.
Garry SchleiferSo the goal good pointing. Yeah, there was a lot of that.
Michael ShoultzSo so the goal isn't to live in the threshold, the goal is to understand it well enough that your next step comes from alignment instead of urgency. Okay, and back to the point of is good and important, but aligned action is much more sustainable than rushed action.
Garry SchleiferYeah. Oh, thank you for that. What a great I wish I'd thought of that question. What's too much or not enough? But we'll just remember Goldilocks.
Michael ShoultzGoldilocks, that's right.
Garry SchleiferYeah, one of the things that I know from my experience and learning with coaching is my intuition is heightened. And I don't know that's for every coach. The threshold, the Goldilocks concept will also come from intuition.
Michael ShoultzAbsolutely.
Garry SchleiferOkay.
Michael ShoultzAnd a part of slowing down, a sort of slowing the process down, it's good for the coach too, right? Because I think when we slow things down, we're better able to tune into our intuition, you know. So it's a good path to walk for both the coach and the person being coached.
Garry SchleiferAnother good pointing, of course. When you're slowing down the client, you're slowing down yourself. And the questions will arrive.
Michael ShoultzAbsolutely.
Resources To Support Your Clients
Garry SchleiferWow. Really great talking to you, Michael. What would you like our audience to do as a result of the article in this conversation?
Michael ShoultzWell, in the article, there is, I hope, some great resources, some ideas that people can access and download. I do have a takeaway for people that are are to the call. If you go to spiritrisingcoaching.com/threshold, which is my website, there's a resource there for you. The questions and a few other tidbits, you know, from some of the things that we've talked about today. So u take a look at those and if it helps you just change one person's lives, one person's in perspective, whether that's yourself or the the client you're working with, will that will put us a big old smile on my face.
Garry SchleiferSo okay. Well, if they want to share their experience, what's the best way to reach you?
Michael ShoultzWell, I am on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, you know.
Garry SchleiferOh my gosh, I forgot about TikTok.
Michael ShoultzYeah, that's a fun one. So and then there by my first and last name, Michael, and as we talked early, Shoultz with no C at a note.
Garry SchleiferI don't know. I know it's so automatic, especially Schleifer over here with an SCH all his life. Well, thank you so much, Michael, and thank you for generosity with that article. Say it again, Spirit.
Michael ShoultzSpirit risingcoaching.com/ threshold.
Garry SchleiferThank you very much, and thank you for joining us for this Beyond the Page episode. And I hope you're right for us again.
Michael ShoultzWell, I will very much consider that. Thank you. It's been a wonderful experience, and I appreciate the having the opportunity to write and the opportunity to join you this morning for on your podcast. So thank you, Garry.
Garry SchleiferMuch appreciated. Very welcome.
Subscribe And Get The Free Issue
Garry SchleiferThat's it for this episode of Beyond the Page. For more episodes, subscribe via your favorite podcast app. If you're not a subscriber to choice Magazine and you're watching the video, you can sign up for your free digital issue by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of my screen. Or if you're driving or on a treadmill, please pull over and go to choice online.com and click the sign up now button. I'm Garry Schleifer. Enjoy the journey of mastery.