Episode #228 - Li Auto Implodes, XPeng Attacks, Huawei Expands, and NIO Fights for Breakeven

China EVs & More is back with a special Thanksgiving episode — and the China auto world did not take the week off. 🚗⚡🦃

Tu & Lei break down Li Auto’s shocking Q3 collapse, CEO Li Xiang’s pivot to “embodied AI,” and why the brand is losing momentum to Xiaomi, XPeng, NIO, and Huawei-backed models.  

We analyze XPeng’s aggressive 2025–26 EREV + BEV rollout, including seven new models and its “super range extender” strategy, plus the deepening Turing chip adoption and XPeng’s personal L4 + RoboTaxi ambitions.

Then we dive into the Guangzhou Auto Show, Huawei’s expanding HIMA ecosystem, the launch of new Yijin and Qijin brands, and how Huawei QianKun ADAS is quickly spreading across Nissan, Audi, GAC, Toyota, and more.

We close with NIO’s Q4 breakeven challenge, Firefly’s global potential, Stellantis–Leapmotor tensions in Latin America, and updates on Waymo, Zeekr RT, Aito M5, robotaxis, and physical AI’s impact on factory jobs.

Insightful, energetic, and brutally candid — your weekly download on the global EV and mobility power shift.

🕒 Timestamps / Chapters

00:00 – Intro & Thanksgiving kickoff

01:30 – Li Auto’s disastrous Q3: losses, Mega fire fallout & EREV reset

03:30 – Li Xiang goes “embodied AI” + M100 chip vision

05:30 – Li Auto’s 2026 L-Series refresh & Russian Doll design rethink

07:50 – “Who’s hot, who’s not” — Xiaomi, XPeng, Leapmotor surge

08:30 – XPeng’s 7-model onslaught: BEV + EREV + L4 plans

10:10 – XPeng Turing chip, humanoid robot & L4 Robo versions

12:00 – Physical AI: robots, automation & factory disruption

15:10 – NIO earnings: Q4 breakeven, SG&A burn & ES8/Onvo push

16:50 – Firefly’s growing overseas role & NIO’s three-brand prioritization

19:30 – Leapmotor–Stellantis expansion and emerging market friction

21:00 – Xiaomi’s immunity to PR crises & massive user base advantage

23:00 – “Five to ten years to know the winners” — William Li’s marathon analogy

24:00 – New brands at GZ Auto Show: Yijin, Qijin & Huawei’s expanding influence

28:00 – Huawei QianKun ADAS spreads to Nissan, Audi, Toyota

30:00 – AV/ADAS wars: Momenta, Horizon, DeepRoute rising

32:00 – LiDAR drama: Hesai vs RoboSense & chaos in the lidar space

35:00 – Robotaxis: WeRide–Uber launch, Pony & LA/SD growth

37:00 – Tu drives the Aito M5 in California

38:00 – Waymo coverage expands: airports + 2026 Detroit launch

42:00 – Zeekr RT issues & Tesla vs Waymo RoboTaxi paths

47:00 – AV startups struggle: Haomo AI collapse & Great Wall pivot

50:00 – GM “Game of Thrones”: executive shakeups & culture reset

53:00 – Volkswagen speeds up China dev cycles & exports back out

55:00 – Audience Q&A & Thanksgiving wrap

🔑 SEO Keywords

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Transcript

Tu Le (00:00)
 Hi everyone, welcome to China EVs and more, where my co-host, Lei Xing and I will go over the week's most important and interesting news coming out of the global EV, AV and mobility sectors. What Lei and I discuss today is based on our opinions and should not be taken as investment advice.
 
 For those that are new to the show, welcome. To our loyal listeners and viewers, welcome back. Don't forget to subscribe and like so you don't miss anything from us in the future. Also help us get the word out about this podcast to other enthusiasts. And of course, tune in again next week. My name is Tu Le. I am the managing director at Sino Auto Insights a global management consultancy that helps organizations bring innovative and tech-focused products and services to the transportation and mobility sectors.
 
 I write a free weekly newsletter that we pull many of our discussion topics from. You can sign up for it at Sinoautoinsights.substack.com, which of course I encourage you all to do. Happy Thanksgiving, Lei. Can you please introduce yourself?
 
 Lei Xing (01:02)
 Good morning. This is your co-host Lei Xing, former chief editor of China Auto Review. And this is episode lucky number 228. Yes, special Thanksgiving episode. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. ‚Åì Thank you to our listeners and viewers,
 
 yeah, Thanksgiving, it's going to be Turkey, football, and some fireworks in the China EV and AV space, right? And the two items on the agenda today are the WeiXiaoLi earnings and the Guangzhou Auto Show.
 
 Tu Le (01:29)
 There has been some fireworks already.
 
 Lei Xing (01:45)
 I rephrased that as, because we've heard ‚Åì all of the, I guess, the big five and most recently this morning, Li Auto which was a kind of disastrous. And we probably can start out there since it's fresh. ‚Åì I listened in on the earnings call and from the get-go, you could,
 
 Tu Le (01:49)
 You
 
 Which needs a hug.
 
 Lei Xing (02:13)
 since Li Xiang did not want to talk about the Q3 earnings.
 
 Instead, he went into kind of ‚Åì where his company is going in terms of strategic positioning and in terms of management style. And the first thing he said, he's actually going back to the entrepreneurial or the startup management style rather than a professional management style.
 
 And then the other thing basically said was, we're going to be an embodied AI company. And part of what they're doing is launching this M100 chip following NIO and XPeng into their products. then he did not talk too much on the earnings call after that. think it was a backwater to forget.
 
 Tu Le (03:02)
 and Huawei.
 
 Lei Xing (03:15)
 basically.
 
 Tu Le (03:16)
 It is stunning. The...
 
 Lei Xing (03:18)
 Yeah.
 
 This one to a loss, basically. Something, yeah.
 
 Tu Le (03:21)
 first time in three years, I
 
 And it's stunning the fall that Li Auto has taken over the last several months. And the Mega challenges when that launched was a blip and then Li Auto continued to grow and do well. But the i8 launch was a disaster. The Mega fire ended up.
 
 combining and compounding some of the challenges, but Li Auto is just on the wrong end of the momentum coming out of Xiaomi, NIO, XPeng, the HIMA, Huawei vehicles, the products. so they, I had read this morning before jumping on that the Fudsters are out in full force trying to short the Li Auto stock now. So.
 
 Lei Xing (04:17)
 Well, I mean, was, yeah, it was kind of sobering to see him or listen to him kind of not talk about the Q3 stuff and basically the company and himself, ‚Åì right, which is, you know.
 
 how it all of a sudden, I think their leadership in the EREVS, which he said they want to get back their strategic goal in 2026, short term, is to come back as the leader of EREVS.
 
 Tu Le (04:54)
 Hmm
 
 Lei Xing (04:55)
 He said that in the earnings call, that's the only thing, you know, short term. So they're launching the 2026 L series as major refreshes.
 
 probably a year. mean, it's a 12-month cycle. They just launched the 2025 L-series at the Shanghai Auto Show, remember, right? So it's only seven months. And ‚Åì that reflects the kind of competition where things could go wrong or where things could just ramp up, you know, like what happens with the XPeng and the NIO, Leap.
 
 Tu Le (05:12)
 You
 
 Lei Xing (05:32)
 Xiaomi.
 
 Tu Le (05:32)
 And
 
 looking forward a little bit, next year, Auto Beijing is going to be Li Auto's backyard, Xiaomi's backyard. So you should expect that they would want to bring the heat just like XPeng did for the Guangzhou Auto Show, because I'd spoken with a couple of journalists from...
 
 the UK and Europe who actually went to Guangzhou. ‚Åì One of them in particular went ‚Åì with XPeng. So XPeng actually only was at GZ Auto Show with their media group for a couple of hours. So he said he didn't get a chance to walk around. But yeah, so.
 
 My thought is that April, Li Auto might come pretty strong with announcements and their booth because Beijing is right in their backyard. ‚Åì yeah, and then looking back further, they owned the EREV space for several years and could they have done more maybe, but if you look back,
 
 They had the L6, L7, L8, L9. So they had four products in the EREV space. I think they did pretty well for themselves. ‚Åì Now it's extremely crowded on the low end from an MSRP standpoint and even the mid to high end with the HIMA models coming out.
 
 Lei Xing (07:07)
 So one thing they will make a tweak or a change out into the future, 27-28, is they're probably going to be going away from that Russian doll strategy of the L6789 looking roughly the same. I think they want different form factors. That's what I've heard. So we'll see that maybe in a couple of years time. But it looks like the L series, at least next year.
 
 will remain ‚Åì kind of Russian doll, but with updated design, of course. ‚Åì But yeah, they're what's not if you compare it to who's hot and who's not at this moment in time. ‚Åì
 
 Tu Le (07:59)
 So let's circle back to you said, Li Xiao Xiao.
 
 Lei Xing (08:05)
 LiXiaoXiaoWeiLi
 
 Li, which is Leap Motor, XPeng, Xiaomi, NIO, and Li Auto. So the L, the L switch, right? The L used to be Li Auto at the beginning. Now it's Leap Motor. XPeng, yeah, mean, you mentioned XPeng, Guangzhou Auto Show, they're opening their own new home headquarters.
 
 Tu Le (08:12)
 Any other earnings? Yeah, okay, yep.
 
 Right.
 
 They're firing on all cylinders.
 
 Lei Xing (08:29)
 So think, yeah, they invited some media KOLs to check it out and a couple of events. Also, they are the most aggressive in encroaching into the Li Auto EREV space because all seven models launch in next year.
 
 are either EREVs of existing nameplates or entirely new ones with both BEV and EREV versions.
 
 Tu Le (09:03)
 So these, so to put it simply, XPeng is borrowing the BYD strategy. Whether you want an EREV or a BEV, we have it.
 
 Lei Xing (09:16)
 Yeah, and I think that they're stressing, He Xiaopeng is stressing that not the, you know, the irreps of the past. They're the so-called super range extenders.
 
 Tu Le (09:30)
 They effectively have a
 
 complete battery pack. It's not, oh, this thing goes 30 miles or 40 kilometers. You can really just use the battery pack for 200, 250 miles, I think.
 
 Lei Xing (09:46)
 And then it's the deepening of the chip play, right? The chip usage of their Turing chip and then the launching later next year of the robo versions. So they're very aggressive on the personally owned L4 side of it, as well as the RoboTaxi L4. ‚Åì And then not to mention the humanoid robot, right? That we've already talked about that made waves.
 
 recently. And it looks like Li Auto is trying to catch up because ‚Åì Li Xiang, talked a lot about this embodied AI of robots, of cars being the first robots. So it seems to be there's some convergence of what Tesla is doing, what XPeng is doing. ‚Åì
 
 what Li Auto wants to do. And NIO has not mentioned about any humanoid robot plants, but ‚Åì yeah, that's kind of where things are converging a bit, it seems.
 
 Tu Le (10:58)
 And that's
 
 on top of dozens of robotics startups in China already.
 
 Lei Xing (11:05)
 Yeah, who are not in the EV space or the EV space. ‚Åì
 
 Tu Le (11:09)
 Right.
 
 It's just starting to get interesting because everybody's going to have their own silicon. ‚Åì And yeah, they're there.
 
 Lei Xing (11:18)
 Volkswagen, well, with the help of Horizon
 
 Robotics, but.
 
 Tu Le (11:23)
 So I was in the Bay Area in Sunnyvale. There's an accelerator venture capital firm that had hosted a conference. Last Monday was the Hyundai Plug and Play Joint Conference. It was a mobility conference. And I was a speaker. And we talked about the $30,000 car.
 
 It was interesting. The next day was the start of their two or three day conference. ‚Åì it was a summit that brought together a lot of their portfolio companies and the startups that they support. ‚Åì most of them had a dot AI or an AI after their name. And pointing back to what Li Xiang said about embodied AI, I'm assuming
 
 It's also similar to what was the theme last week in Sunnyvale, which is physical AI, because up to this point, all the AI that we've been talking about is software-based, chat GPT, things that help ‚Åì intangible stuff, Like help with market research, but now we're getting into what Li Xiang called embodied AI or what
 
 A lot of the Silicon Valley startups call physical AI. that's, so there was a startup that, ‚Åì was building robots to help in factories, fold shirts. And it had raised like $300 million Dyna D Y N A was the company and they were saying that, so, know how t-shirts are, are flat on the table.
 
 It has arms and fingers that can pick up the cloth and fold them. And they were saying the current time was about 60 % as fast as a human. So just think of that one company and how many people are actually at factories building or making clothes in China, in Mexico.
 
 in Southeast Asia, South Asia now replace two or three people with one robot. So when we talk about physical AI, we're talking about a complete transformation of the employment and how people are employed in the future because factory workers, they're completely at risk. And we've been to FE2, we've seen
 
 that there are automotive factories in China that already don't have a ton of people walking around ‚Åì putting parts on a vehicle.
 
 Lei Xing (14:20)
 Yeah, and then there's that Sunday robot that has made quite an entrance the last few days, ‚Åì doing house cores, right? But not a full-bodied human-eroded robot, right? It's got this kind of the wheelie on the bottom. ‚Åì
 
 Tu Le (14:30)
 Yep.
 
 Yeah, you know, it's really weird because
 
 you see these videos too. And I don't know if they're fakes or real because some of these robots are doing stuff that you're like, whoa, you know, like dancing and like doing kung fu and stuff. And it's crazy. So.
 
 Lei Xing (14:57)
 Yeah, take a grain of salt, right? What you see. Seeing is not believing sometimes.
 
 Tu Le (15:04)
 Yeah, because on Chinese social there's a ton of videos with robots doing crazy stuff. And I actually don't know if they're real or not.
 
 Lei Xing (15:17)
 Yeah, so this great.
 
 Tu Le (15:19)
 Anything else notable
 
 about the earnings?
 
 Lei Xing (15:22)
 So Li Auto, we talked about Li Auto. Yesterday was NIO Happy birthday, by the way. They're 11 years old. So their earnings call was on their 11th birthday. I tweeted that it was good and BAT, right? The BAT stuff was really about, again, pushing that 50,000 run rate into early 2026.
 
 Tu Le (15:29)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 saw that.
 
 Lei Xing (15:49)
 and they're saying is because of the elimination of the trade-in and replacement policy that is affecting some of their Onvo models. ‚Åì But I think still the biggest question mark is getting to that breakeven in Q4.
 
 Tu Le (16:13)
 which they still seem
 
 confident about.
 
 Lei Xing (16:15)
 They're
 
 confident, ‚Åì Li, William Li, he's confident, he reiterated. But it's gonna be ‚Åì awfully hard to swing a three, somewhat of a close to a three billion renminbi loss to a profit in one quarter. Now, the benefit of the doubt is that in Q3, these launches, NIO Day, all happened in Q3.
 
 Tu Le (16:30)
 Right.
 
 Lei Xing (16:44)
 So their SG &A, I looked at all the SG &As, NIO's SG &A is significantly almost like 2X the other competitors. So if they can bring that down in Q4, it'll help. But at the same time, ‚Åì we're clearly seeing NIO moving the bulk of their sales to these bigger, hopefully more profitable vehicles.
 
 and they have three more coming next year ‚Åì when they want to achieve full year breakeven. So there's two things on the plate. Q4 breakeven, 2026 breakeven, which are still big question marks. if, ‚Åì personally believe it's hard to achieve. So I don't know. ‚Åì
 
 Tu Le (17:41)
 For the non-accounting folks, SG &A stands for Sales General and Administrative, which is overhead cost.
 
 Lei Xing (17:47)
 Yeah, I think it was like 4. something billion in Q3 for NIO. But I Q4.
 
 Tu Le (17:54)
 Well they have all
 
 those fancy NIO houses in
 
 Lei Xing (17:59)
 Yeah, I Q4 is just a matter of executing, delivering, right? They're planning 15,000, I think 40,000 ES8s in Q4. So, yeah, they already did 10,000 in October, which means 15,000 the rest of the way each month.
 
 Tu Le (18:11)
 That's a monster number. That's a monster number.
 
 This is the up and
 
 to remind folks, this is the updated. Yes. Eight that has the much more competitive pricing.
 
 Lei Xing (18:28)
 plus Onvo L90 and then those are the of the bulk of the sales, which is a double-edged sword, right? I think Firefly is improving quite significantly, especially in the overseas market.
 
 Tu Le (18:28)
 I think it.
 
 Yeah, it could be a big year for Firefly overseas.
 
 Lei Xing (18:45)
 Yeah,
 
 I think their time was kind of interesting timing of the Firefly launching overseas. Maybe it could have worked better if they had the Firefly product earlier ‚Åì instead of putting it into the NIO brand first. But you build a brand, you build a distribution network and you learn from it. And it looks like they're working more with partners.
 
 As what XPeng is doing as well LeapMotor Yeah, what he's doing, right? So Yeah, so that's
 
 Tu Le (19:16)
 B-Y-D is doing.
 
 think that's the winning
 
 strategy in Europe. You can't do it by yourself, especially because of the immense diversity of the region, ‚Åì the taste, the language, the culture. And so ‚Åì for companies like BYD, Li Auto and NIO and XPeng, I think that's the right thing to do.
 
 Lei Xing (19:45)
 And then Leap motor who just launched in ‚Åì Brazil and Chile, they have Stellantis to help with, which is something the other ones don't.
 
 Tu Le (20:00)
 LeapMotor has Stellantis in Latin America and South America too.
 
 Lei Xing (20:01)
 Yeah, yeah, yeah,
 
 yeah. So.
 
 Tu Le (20:06)
 But
 
 I will say, Lei, that there should be some friction with Stellantis and Leap Motor, at least some of the Stellantis brands and Leap Motor in those emerging markets. Because I had mentioned this before in a previous pod that Fiat is the number one brand in Brazil. I don't think they're going to want to give that up or share that spotlight with Leap Motor. And so...
 
 Should we see a more licensing strategy from LeapMotor and Stellantis in some of the emerging markets where Stellantis already has strong brands? Maybe. But I'm sure LeapMotor will also want to create their own space and share in those regions, in those countries. that's something that, dang, what's his? ‚Åì
 
 What's his name, the CEO?
 
 Lei Xing (21:06)
 Antonio Filosa.
 
 Tu Le (21:07)
 Antonio Filosa needs to
 
 sort out. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (21:12)
 And then ‚Åì Xiaomi, I mean, what can you say about Xiaomi? They've dodged every PR crisis, quality incident crisis possible simply because they have this huge fan base that will support them any way possible. Right, they've already done half a million in cumulative production and they're gonna get to 400,000 units.
 
 Tu Le (21:32)
 Or they have...
 
 Lei Xing (21:42)
 way past their 350 target despite all the negativity. Go figure, right?
 
 Tu Le (21:51)
 Here's where
 
 we always have to keep this in mind always. Xiaomi is not a startup. They've been established in the market for what? 10 years? Is it? 15. 15 years.
 
 Lei Xing (22:00)
 No.
 
 15 years. 2010 is when...
 
 yeah, 15 years.
 
 Tu Le (22:09)
 Their EV division is less than four years old, but the company is 15 years old. So this whole social media frenzy in China, they're pros at this. They probably have water armies already that they just shift over to the EV stuff. Whereas the XPeng, Li Auto and NIO, they're experiencing all this stuff for the first time. And so I think that's where, at least in the China domestic market, they have a real advantage.
 
 ‚Åì of kind of, let's say, massaging the narrative a little bit, the public narrative.
 
 Lei Xing (22:49)
 Well,
 
 they have a better immune system than the Maybe that's a way to put it. But the interesting thing is, I think, ‚Åì going back to NIO a bit, is ‚Åì when I talked to William at the NIO Day, he said something very interesting. That of this marathon,
 
 Tu Le (22:53)
 Yes, yes.
 
 Lei Xing (23:16)
 were five to six kilometers into this marathon and the next five kilometers going to that 10 kilometer point is going to be crucial and he thinks it's going to be 10 years before we're certain who are the winners and losers. So what's happening with Li Auto and the headwind that BYD has faced?
 
 goes back to also what He Xiaopeng said, that no one is safe. ‚Åì And the Ling Xiaoxiao Weili is kind of a good example of what happens within a short time. Still in the warring period, ‚Åì Anybody's game. And speaking of, Ji Du, did you see that Ji Du announcement?
 
 Tu Le (24:13)
 Hmm.
 
 Lei Xing (24:14)
 of
 
 trying to bring in strategic investors, ‚Åì WM Motor is coming back.
 
 You know, go figure.
 
 Tu Le (24:24)
 as
 
 I believe Freeman sits in LA. I was told he was, yeah, he's not in China. So one thing I will add about the five year, 10 year who will see, this also includes the legacy automakers and the brands, the stable of brands that Stellantis has, the stable of brands that.
 
 Lei Xing (24:28)
 Or wherever it is. Not in China, I know.
 
 Tu Le (24:53)
 Geely has the stable of brands that ‚Åì Volkswagen Group has. There's no guarantee that... And this is where for Westerners, our European listeners and our American listeners and viewers, we have history with a lot of these brands. We've grown up with Chevy. We've grown up with ‚Åì Skoda.
 
 Right. We've grown up with Volkswagen. I'm not saying Volkswagen brand will go away. I don't think that will go away. these other brands, Peugeot, Citroen, who are a little bit on the fringe, does it make sense to have them still in the portfolio? Maybe if you want strong, in the case of a Peugeot or Citroen, maybe if you want strong French market share, but rest of the world, you know, they seem to do okay. But
 
 Other brands in their portfolio could take up some of that slack. the reality is, is Stellantis and Volkswagen Group are going to have to reconcile that brand strategy across the 10, 12 different brands. And, you know, we talk about Chinese brands that might not make it. There's going to be European and American brands that don't make it either.
 
 Lei Xing (26:11)
 Yeah, agree. think as an automaker group, I think it'll be around, but sooner or later, they have to face what GM did back in the days. Pontiac is gone, right? Oldsmobile is gone. Right? They'll have to face the same decisions pretty soon, especially Stellantis.
 
 Tu Le (26:35)
 You know, thing,
 
 is, you know, Daewoo was a Korean brand that GM bought. So there could be possibilities where there's a weak Chinese brand that actually has decent market share in China. I wouldn't, I wouldn't take off the table a GM or Ford kicking the tires on a Chinese brand in order to build that presence back up in the China market.
 
 Lei Xing (26:55)
 So.
 
 At the same time that ‚Åì these Ling Xiaoxiao, Wei Li, they're still not out of woods yet, we're still seeing emergence of new brands in the Chinese market. This is probably where we can talk about the Guangzhou Auto Show a little bit. Two brands that were announced officially had to deal with Huawei. They're what's called the Jing. One is Yi Jing from Dongfeng.
 
 Tu Le (27:22)
 Yes.
 
 Let me stop you there real quick.
 
 Let's explain what HIMA is. Harmony in Motion. don't know, what's the A stand for? Harmony in Motion. yes. Harmony Intelligence Mobility Alliance. So that's Seres AITO That is, is it Luxeed?
 
 Lei Xing (27:33)
 Harmony Intelligent Mobility Alliance.
 
 Yes, which.
 
 I tell Luxeed.
 
 ‚Åì Stelato Stelato, Maextro and then there's one more, there's the Shangjie, which is ‚Åì SAIC. So there's five five-jies in the HIMA alliance. And now we add two jins
 
 Tu Le (27:55)
 I think there's like four? Stellato.
 
 and
 
 Okay, Huawei says they don't want to be a car brand. They are a car brand. And these are their, let's say, proxies because anyways, go ahead. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
 
 Lei Xing (28:21)
 Well, yeah.
 
 Yeah,
 
 so it's getting a bit more complex, complicated with how Huawei's being involved. So the HIMA is where, here's the difference. The HIMA are basically Huawei's heavily involved in the designing and the ‚Åì tech stack of these brands. And these brands are distributed through Huawei stores.
 
 The difference with the new jins the Yijin and the Qijin from Dongfeng and GAC Group is that, yes, Huawei still is heavily involved, but these distribution-wise, they're controlled by the ‚Åì automakers, the OEMs. So that's one major primary difference. These jins, they're not going to be sold.
 
 through the Huawei stores. And then there's always also the lower, the Huawei inside, which is Avatr ‚Åì Avatr has their own distribution channels, but Huawei is only providing certain components. ‚Åì Yeah. And now the Guangzhou Auto Show, I think the biggest winner is basically Huawei Qian Kun.
 
 Tu Le (29:49)
 Avatr is ‚Åì owned by Chang'an, for those that are wondering.
 
 Lei Xing (29:59)
 Huawei Qian Kun is basically the kind of the ADAS ‚Åì solutions that are not only going into these two jins but ‚Åì several of these new models that were being unveiled. Audi, for example. There's this HypeTech. And then there's also the Huawei Harmony Space.
 
 Tu Le (30:18)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Lei Xing (30:29)
 going into Nissan Tiana and the GAC Toyota BZ7.
 
 So Huawei continues to kind of expand into different realms, you will, pun intended.
 
 Tu Le (30:46)
 But
 
 here's the important thing to note. Audi struggles mightily in the China market. Nissan struggles mightily. They struggle as a global automaker. So Huawei sees opportunity with the weaker players. And the weaker players want to be relevant in the China market. So what do they do? They buy. I've always talked about this make or buy decision that the OEM leadership have.
 
 whether it's software, whether it's batteries, whether it's, ‚Åì you know, silicon. And what we're seeing is Huawei is really taking advantage of seeing who out there needs an injection of technology, the Nissan's and the Audi's in there going after them in the China market. Probably with hopes that they'll be able to be in Nissan Audi vehicles
 
 outside of China. think that's the long play.
 
 Lei Xing (31:47)
 Yeah, mean, Huawei cells, Momenta cells, Horizon cells. Some of the models that were introduced at ‚Åì the Guangzhou Auto Show, Buick, the Electra MPV is Momenta inside. Audi ESUV is Momenta inside.
 
 Tu Le (32:05)
 It's funny, Lei.
 
 Momenta is a monster. ‚Åì So and we can talk a little bit about the ADAS, ‚Åì but and the autonomous vehicle stuff because I've been in two Waymo presentations over the last two or three weeks and Waymo has dialed it way up from the standpoint of moving into different cities in the United States. It's really impressive. so what was I just talking about?
 
 Momenta just came from nowhere and intelligent driving level two plus will be standard on most vehicles within, you know, by 2028 in China. And what does that mean for the legacy automakers outside of China? Because in order to compete and this is what I meant to say, you know, I have Apple news and and like, I don't know if it was Apple news, but maybe it was X. But one of my feeds.
 
 posted Ethan's review of the Buick MPV. It was funny. And I was like, nice, dude. And there was an article last week that said the best MPV that GM makes is not sold in the United States. And they were talking about the Buick. So.
 
 Lei Xing (33:29)
 Well, the best Ford Bronco is not made in the US, maybe. We're talking about MPVs right? And then the iCar, the Chery is using a lot of Horizon's HSD solution. That's another one. And then the Leap Motor right? You were asking about the big reviews. I think Leap Motor A10
 
 Tu Le (33:35)
 So yeah, yeah. So.
 
 Lei Xing (33:58)
 is quite significant for two because it's going to have LiDAR for under RIMB 100,000. And ‚Åì second, it's on the Qualcomm bandwagon in both the SmartCockpit and the ADAS chips. So LeapMotor is more of the, know, we're not going to go into chip, ‚Åì not yet. We're going to depend on the, you know, these partners.
 
 It's a different ‚Åì tactic, but yeah.
 
 Tu Le (34:28)
 As we talk
 
 about ‚Åì LiDAR Lei Luminar, his drama, his crazy, crazy drama, so right now.
 
 Lei Xing (34:35)
 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's also drama
 
 between the two leaders, Hesai and... ‚Åì It's interesting that we touched on this because there's beefs going on between the top players. Hesai and Robosense and then Pony and WeRide ‚Åì There's two huge beefs going on right now.
 
 Tu Le (34:51)
 Yeah!
 
 I should note,
 
 we should note with the We Ride and Pony who did secondary listings in Hong Kong a few weeks ago, their share price is tanked. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (35:09)
 Yeah, ‚Åì while they're
 
 expanding, ‚Åì WeRide just launched the Uber commercial robot taxi just today.
 
 Tu Le (35:22)
 In.
 
 Lei Xing (35:22)
 and
 
 they're reaching the so-called unit economics break even in the big cities, Pony and Guangzhou. ‚Åì
 
 Tu Le (35:31)
 As I just visited LA for the auto show, I missed you, Lei but it was not worth it for you to come. I got to see Alysha so that was cool. And saw a few people, saw Ed Kim from Auto Pacific, so that was cool. But like the reunion will be at CES, I think, so.
 
 Lei Xing (35:56)
 I
 
 think LA Auto Show has become the Hyundai Kia Auto Show. I think they've owned that auto show since quite a few years now. For the vehicles, that's ‚Åì intended for the North American market, the Telluride.
 
 Tu Le (36:13)
 Yeah, so maybe
 
 I can take a few minutes to talk about my week last week. ‚Åì Got to drive an M5, Aito M5 in Sunnyvale for a bit.
 
 Lei Xing (36:24)
 Yeah, what's up with that? mean,
 
 what, what, you know, any secrets that you can in on what they're doing.
 
 Tu Le (36:31)
 So
 
 I do this $30,000 car and there's probably what? 253 hundred people in this conference room at I ‚Åì plug and play in Sunnyvale and whenever I do a panel, there's always like people on LinkedIn just add me. Hey, you know, loved your chat, blah, blah, blah. And so this woman who works at Aito at the open innovation office, it's an open innovation office and she was like, hey. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (36:52)
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (37:01)
 I drive ‚Åì an M5 and have you driven one?" I was like, no, but I was planning on doing that the next time I'm in China. She's like, it's in the parking lot. I was like, awesome. It was three years old and it would not look out of place in the United States. It doesn't really get too many software updates and she can't use most of the apps because it's connected to China.
 
 Lei Xing (37:01)
 Take it, press bend.
 
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (37:29)
 Having spoken with Ganesh, ‚Åì the US head for NIO, something's changed over the last few years and getting a manufacturer plates and things like that for vehicles in Chinese vehicles on US roads is really, really difficult now.
 
 Lei Xing (37:48)
 They were Michigan
 
 plates or California plates.
 
 Tu Le (37:52)
 ‚Åì The the AITO plate was a California plate But it was an plate. It was a manufacturer plate and so So that was cool. She let me drive it. We drove it around, know, unfortunately some Silicon Valley Traffic's really BAT. ‚Åì and the other thing that I did was I did get to ride in a robo taxi Okay So a cyber cyber cab ‚Åì the it was a model Y. It was a model Y ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (37:55)
 Okay. Yeah.
 
 Right.
 
 Which one? Not a lot. So using the
 
 RoboTaxi app. So you got one.
 
 Tu Le (38:22)
 Yeah, I wouldn't have
 
 even thought of doing that. So thank you for pinging me. I did that. ‚Åì We went from, we went like a seven mile loop, basically.
 
 Lei Xing (38:30)
 Did you?
 
 Did you have to wait at the beginning for the... okay, because I heard that it's quite difficult to get one. I heard the wait times are long.
 
 Tu Le (38:38)
 I did it at around 9 PM.
 
 Yeah, Waymo.
 
 So here's the crazy thing. Waymo is now, can pick you up in San Jose airport.
 
 Lei Xing (38:55)
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (38:56)
 So Waymo is now entirely in the Bay Area, effectively. If you quickly look at a map, the revised map, I think there's more political reasons and not regulatory reasons, but particular to San Francisco International, maybe some of the cabbies, maybe some of the other entities don't want Waymo to come.
 
 Lei Xing (39:01)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tu Le (39:23)
 to San Francisco International, I don't think it's a Waymo can't do it or is not capable. And ‚Åì what was cool was that in order to do the San Jose stuff, you had to be put on a wait list. But Waymo, the global head of their marketing, she presented in one of her last slides was a code to jump the line. And so I did Waymo.
 
 Lei Xing (39:46)
 Uh-huh.
 
 Tu Le (39:51)
 And you know, we've done Waymo before. So, you know, just like clockwork, it's same, same. And I wasn't flying out of ‚Åì SJC, so I didn't use it for the airport. But the Robo taxi, you know, unfortunately it was nighttime. And so the roads weren't too. Yeah, there's a safety driver. I asked three questions and her final answer. So her first two answers were.
 
 Lei Xing (40:08)
 And there's a driver, right? There's a driver on the driver seat, right?
 
 Tu Le (40:21)
 very, very broad. And then the third answer was, I can't really say too much about, you know, the car. And so ‚Åì it was, it was fine. You know, I think that
 
 It's gonna be tough for them.
 
 Lei Xing (40:37)
 Well, mean,
 
 yeah. I mean, the whole point of RoboTaxi is you're not supposed to talk to anybody because there shouldn't be anybody in the car. Yeah, I'm saying, right? So you put an asterisk on Tesla's RoboTaxi, right, the so-called RoboTaxi, until they remove the safety drivers. Then, you know.
 
 Tu Le (40:47)
 Well, yeah, but you know, I'm just freaking and so so I.
 
 Yeah, and then. ‚Åì
 
 Well, and they,
 
 it's hard to be, it's going to be hard for them.
 
 Or it's going to take, I won't say hard. It's going to take a lot of investment for them to be a major player in Silicon Valley next to Waymo. Waymo, just seems like Waymo is going to be in like 60 cities next year. They're going to launch in Detroit. They're going to collect data in Detroit. I think Q1 of 26 and then.
 
 Lei Xing (41:16)
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (41:31)
 Hopefully they'll launch the actual service end of 26 or early 27 or something like that. So they're entering Michigan or Detroit in January in order to collect data of the snow and of the roads during winter time.
 
 Lei Xing (41:47)
 Yeah, same in, they're gonna be in Boston,
 
 which is closest to where I am. Right.
 
 Tu Le (41:53)
 So,
 
 and then talk to a Motional guy. And so maybe we'll, I'm gonna try to get us an experience in a Motional car in Vegas maybe. So we'll see if I can do that.
 
 Lei Xing (42:08)
 Well, yeah,
 
 mean, Zoox is already running in Vegas, so that's something else, right? Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (42:11)
 And in San Francisco now.
 
 So, and what else was notable about my trip? I saw a 10-star Auto vehicle at the LA Auto Show. The thing is huge. It is 18 feet long. It is big. The pictures don't do it justice because when I walked up to it, I was like, whoa. So.
 
 Lei Xing (42:23)
 They're very weird looking, but... ‚Åì
 
 Did you see
 
 what was Professor X anywhere present at all?
 
 Tu Le (42:39)
 I did not see him. did
 
 not see him. What was interesting was I did talk to the woman, one of the spokespeople. She said that they're going to be launching these vehicles through the Lyft app in Europe, early than the United States. Right. And so I don't know if Lyft is fronting the money.
 
 Lei Xing (42:56)
 Yeah, yeah, that was previously announced,
 
 Tu Le (43:08)
 because how is Tensor Auto paying for these cars?
 
 Is VinFast just a contract manufacturer or is there some strategic partnership where VinFast is actually subsidizing the vehicle production? These are all open questions that I don't think they're really wanting to answer. But ‚Åì this version did not have rear view mirrors. They had video cameras. So if you think about the Audi ‚Åì Sportback,
 
 Lei Xing (43:40)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Tu Le (43:41)
 in
 
 China, how the rear view mirrors have the camera view. That's what it was. I'm also not clear.
 
 Lei Xing (43:52)
 There's,
 
 Tu Le (43:52)
 whether
 
 or not this is a personal vehicle that you can put into. So if you buy this vehicle, when you're at work, can you put it into the Lyft app and try to make money?
 
 Lei Xing (44:04)
 That was the intent, I believe, ‚Åì
 
 when this was announced. And then also recent videos of Zeekr RTs surfacing in San Diego, which means next year we'll likely be seeing them on the roads, commercially operating. Four years, four years after ‚Åì the debut in LA,
 
 Tu Le (44:24)
 Sure.
 
 So here's another thing. But here's another thing, Lei. I saw an Ionic 5.
 
 Lei Xing (44:32)
 Finally, they're going to make it work. San Diego, think...
 
 Lei Xing (44:44)
 Yeah, that's the other form.
 
 Tu Le (44:45)
 for Waymo.
 
 And I think you're absolutely right. It's a fallback because there's been enough articles about the Zeekr made Waymo level four, Robo taxi, the China Zeekr made. So how much blowback are they going to get? How are they dealing with it? Is this, does this become a deal breaker for them? Because I don't know. I have
 
 Because we know that the RT6 that Baidu has in China is less than 300,000 RMB. So it's less than $45,000. How much is Waymo paying for that? Because Zeeker is shipping that as an analog product, basically an EV without any hardware software stack. When it arrives to the United States, that's when Waymo adds all its nuts and bolts hardware software stack.
 
 Lei Xing (45:16)
 No.
 
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (45:41)
 I think Waymo is hoping that that is clear and the controversy just kind of goes away.
 
 Lei Xing (45:50)
 Well, we're probably going to be hearing more ‚Åì soon because I noticed Geely Auto and Waymo are both exhibiting a CES. So maybe there's be some official announcement.
 
 Tu Le (46:05)
 maybe we'll get to share a pint with our friend Ash. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (46:12)
 But interesting times,
 
 think at the end of this year, the robotaxi L4 topic, I think on both sides of the Pacific is really kicking up a notch. At the same time, yeah. And then speaking of the L2 plus thing, I'm actually looking forward to hearing what Rivian is gonna talk about in their autonomy AI day.
 
 Tu Le (46:26)
 I think 2026 is gonna be the year of the AV.
 
 Lei Xing (46:39)
 weeks because they seem to be betting big on what Tesla's FSD is trying to do. I think there are the right we think about the startup space. These are really the two companies in the US compared to dozens if not hundreds of companies that are trying to do the same thing.
 
 Tu Le (47:03)
 And in China, it's also tier one, tier two, tier three. Waymo develops their own LiDAR, right? And so in China, the AV companies, the AV startups, ‚Åì asset light AV startups, they still all use Chinese LiDAR, Chinese sensors. And that is more more...
 
 Lei Xing (47:05)
 In China, right?
 
 Yeah, the momenta is the horizons. ‚Åì Yeah, the lighter companies.
 
 Tu Le (47:32)
 becoming limited or restricted for US-based autonomous vehicle stacks or intelligent driving stacks and autonomous vehicle companies, which creates challenges.
 
 Lei Xing (47:45)
 By the way, one company in the tech space in that vertical is going kaput in China. Seems to be going kaput. The company is called Haomo AI.
 
 Tu Le (47:58)
 Ha-moah, yeah. That is the Great Wall, Great Wall.
 
 Lei Xing (48:00)
 The Great Wall Motor invested.
 
 I think they're done because they, yeah, for now.
 
 Tu Le (48:06)
 For now. Until
 
 Daddy Warbucks comes and says, I wanna start this zombie back up.
 
 Lei Xing (48:15)
 Yeah,
 
 the founders came from Baidu. ‚Åì Now Great Wall Motor, remember they invested into DeepRoute. So they're actually using DeepRoute tech in their ADAS.
 
 Tu Le (48:28)
 So we knew DeepRoute was going to announce a partnership with Great Wall, a wild bag before they actually announced it. no surprises there. I just don't know. To me, this is the existential conundrum, The traditional automotive companies, they know the heavy burden, the financial burden that is needed.
 
 to become a player in the intelligent driving and autonomous vehicle space. And I think they're like, NO MAS we can't do this. ‚Åì a couple of the underlying things that are really important is how much data centers cost, how much energy you're going to use by powering these autonomous vehicles and things like that. And I'm talking more on the power that's needed to support the data centers, not the EV.
 
 Lei Xing (49:08)
 the
 
 Tu Le (49:26)
 charging stuff.
 
 Lei Xing (49:28)
 It's interesting that the two companies that have formed out of these smaller, well not smaller, but ‚Åì state-owned, kind of locally state-owned, so Great Wall Motor, Chery, remember Chery had a kind of a spin-off of their ‚Åì ADAS company headed by the former head of Autonomous Driving at XPeng, the lady by the name of
 
 Dr.
 
 I forget her name, but she's, These have failed, interestingly enough. While I think the startups, right, the NIO, XPeng , Li Auto, they've largely ‚Åì have maintained ‚Åì their kind of the position. And then the rest of it is really just make or buy. And it's really buy from, yeah.
 
 Tu Le (50:01)
 I want to say it's Han. It's not Han.
 
 The only decision is buy. The only
 
 decision is buy. And when you and I say buy or when I say buy, it means license or partner, you know, because I don't think most of these car companies could afford to buy a Pony or a We Ride or something like that. ‚Åì the last thing I'll bring up with you before there's a couple of comments here that I'll talk, I'll read up, but.
 
 Lei Xing (50:29)
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (50:56)
 There is really a game of Thrones going on in General Motors, man. Have you seen that? Baris is gone. So David Richardson left, Baris left. So so the head of AI left. He was only there less than a year, six, seven months. But I think Sterling Anderson is really cleaning house. And ‚Åì Doug Field also cleaned house, I think.
 
 Lei Xing (51:06)
 the
 
 You're talking about the AI stuff or the?
 
 Mm.
 
 Tu Le (51:25)
 when he joined Ford. So this is not unusual. And then there was one other ‚Åì point I wanted to make. there's a German article, and I'll send it to you after we get off, that said there's tension between Rivian and Volkswagen. And I'm glad to hear that. Because if everybody's getting along, then nothing's getting done.
 
 because I was told that this is, when articles like this pop up, it's a signal from the management to the board because insiders leak things. There's a method to that madness because they want to communicate things to the board. And so,
 
 And then ‚Åì some of these tweets I've seen recently where it's like, we recently drove the Hyundai IONIQ 5N and it's an amazing car. And I'm like, do these people live in caves? How are you just figuring this out? ‚Åì it just feels like Volkswagen needs to reset their culture and get much more competitive.
 
 There are way too many people that are comfortable in their positions 20 years in that need to get got, that need to go. And let the newbies, because you and I know a ton of people that are mid-level, that are super smart at these companies, the guys, the vice presidents that are 40 years that we also know, but are much less flexible. Honestly, Lei, if you're 60,
 
 years old or 55 years old and you have three years before you retire, four years, the last thing you want to do is reset your entire division or department. And so this is where ‚Åì competition and ambition needs to really trump longevity and seniority in my opinion.
 
 Lei Xing (53:40)
 Yeah, Volkswagen, there's been some headlines about they're doing product development entirely in China at a much faster pace with the recent test center, right? Which I think something that Carl Maier was without the approval of headquarters, basically, that's what I understand it to be, which means ‚Åì it's...
 
 Tu Le (53:41)
 Ha.
 
 Lei Xing (54:08)
 would be unheard of back in the years that you can operate autonomously as if you were an independent company operating in a certain country. That's where Volkswagen's headed. They're kind of forced to do it if they don't. Almost like Lexus setting up that plant in Shanghai.
 
 ‚Åì It's kind of a way to try. I'm going to try to do what has been proven successful, but that does not guarantee success. But if you don't do it, you're dead anyways.
 
 Tu Le (54:48)
 I, so, so you're referring to a couple of articles this week that said that I think it's 40 % cheaper or faster. One of the two it's, I think it's 40%. and on top of that, they said that they're the Chinese built vehicles will be exported to everywhere, but Europe for Volkswagen. And this should surprise no one. You and you and I have talked about this.
 
 Lei Xing (54:48)
 That's right.
 
 30 % yeah, 30 % yeah, something like that.
 
 Tu Le (55:17)
 ad nauseum where Chinese companies don't use China as an export hub. All companies use China as an export hub. And that is going to continue. ‚Åì But let's go to comments. Zachary 1701, happy Thanksgiving, boss. and Lei. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (55:40)
 you
 
 Tu Le (55:41)
 Isn't NIO kind of slow to push out its refresh models to overseas markets compared to its domestic peers?
 
 Lei Xing (55:49)
 Well, apparently and realistically, yes. But remember that the priority is breaking even and in order to do so, you have to give up on something and focus on something else. Bless you. ‚Åì So, right, the priority is delivering these more profitable vehicles, executing
 
 Delaying the launches of, I mean, the L80 is not, I don't know how much lower it's gonna be priced below the L90, but they don't wanna launch the L80 right now because L90, there's a backlog that they wanna bring these to market. overseas, yeah. And overseas, there are some tweaks about product priority, right? Li talked about it, William Li talked about.
 
 Tu Le (56:38)
 And that's the right decision. To me, that's the right decision.
 
 Lei Xing (56:49)
 putting Firefly as a priority, then Onvo then ‚Åì NIO. So I think that's in process, in progress, which, right, that's kind of the answer to the question. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (57:09)
 And remember to piggyback off of your last point, when there are three brands, there's three mouths to feed. There's three ‚Åì entities that need R &D funding. And so when you had limited capital, you have to make some tough decisions. And the Firefly team is probably like, look, we have a huge opportunity in the European market. So we should be first.
 
 And the other thing too is Europe is not China. And I don't know if there's a ton of value in refreshing your model so quickly in the European market as it is in China. so this becomes more of an operational challenge because if you're two model years behind or a model year behind in Europe and you're
 
 looking at almost two model years ahead in China, now it's like the supply chain guys go, okay, then we need to buy silicon that's this old versus the newest silicon or vice versa. And that creates more complexity in the supply chain. yeah, know, I, know, NIO is actually doing just okay in European markets anyways. And cars like the, or SUVs like the ES8 there's a limited market. There's
 
 There's not many large SUVs that are sold in Europe relative to the US and China. ‚Åì
 
 Rinaldi, ‚Åì who has been on the show a few times. thanks for ‚Åì continuing to be a part of our family, Apprezza. ‚Åì Many new cars are EREVs but EREV sales have actually declined in China.
 
 Lei Xing (59:03)
 That is correct. That is exactly what ‚Åì William Li pointed out in earnings. I think he shared some stats of EREV's actually negative growth in certain ‚Åì periods of the year. ‚Åì tell that to He Xiaopeng, Tell that to ‚Åì Lei Jun. They're launching the U9, which has EREV.
 
 Tu Le (59:31)
 And remember
 
 that BYD, more than 40 % of their sales is PHEV. They're not EREVs but they're PHEV. So I'm categorizing them together as a general ‚Åì thing, but.
 
 Lei Xing (59:44)
 And then add on
 
 top of that, have Li Xiang saying our strategic goal is to be back as the leader of EREVs next year. It's kind of hard to believe that actually this year, Li Auto sales will be down compared to 2024. So in order to, yeah, so ‚Åì next year they want to grow back and
 
 Tu Le (1:00:06)
 Well, Tesla's the same thing.
 
 Lei Xing (1:00:12)
 I EREVS remains a very ‚Åì important part of that ‚Åì narrative.
 
 Tu Le (1:00:18)
 So, going to stream. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (1:00:29)
 I mean, He Xiaopeng, I think he shared
 
 some stats of the X9 eREV, super eREV. 60 % of the orders came from northern China, if I remember correctly, which is an important region for the eREVs. So, right.
 
 Tu Le (1:00:39)
 Mmm.
 
 Like don't be.
 
 Dongbei has notoriously harsh winters.
 
 Lei Xing (1:00:53)
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (1:00:54)
 So I don't have anything else, Lei, and those were the only two comments. But this was a good show. We should be back. Same BAT time, same BAT channel next Friday. ‚Åì
 
 Lei Xing (1:01:08)
 Yep, I am.
 
 Tu Le (1:01:09)
 But again, happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Thank you for joining us ‚Åì remember, we will have a year-end show and then looking ahead to 26 and 27 show in the coming weeks. So please, please remember to tune in.
 
 Lei Xing (1:01:29)
 Yeah, ‚Åì
 
 this is last show in November and then four weeks left in ‚Åì December.
 
 Tu Le (1:01:35)
 Crazy, crazy, crazy. Oh, hold on a second. Diane Wallace, happy Thanksgiving. Nice. Happy Thanksgiving, Diane. Everyone, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. For you Americans, enjoy Turkey Day. Go Lions. I'm gonna be at the game tomorrow with my family. Looking forward to that.
 
 Lei Xing (1:01:43)
 at the next meeting.
 
 Thank you.
 
 I'm gonna
 
 be watching, looking for you.
 
 Tu Le (1:01:57)
 Yes. All right.
 
 Everyone, ‚Åì we'll see you all next week.
 
 Lei Xing (1:02:03)
 Go Pats. Go Pats.
 
 Yeah. Bye bye.