Non-profits . Are you ready to spend less time on paperwork and more time making an impact ? Save big on Adobe Acrobat Pro , the leading PDF and e-signature tool built for mission-driven work . Apply for your discount now at adobecom . Slash nonprofits , slash acrobat . Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast . I'm your host , megan Spear , joined today by Chris Wong , who is the founder and executive coach at Leadership Potential . Chris is also going to be on the main stage at CauseCamp this year . Really excited to dig into that and have him here in Pittsburgh . Hoping you're planning to join us for that as well , because , oh my gosh , the lineup this year is just fantastic . I'm so excited about it , but really excited to have Chris as a part of it and to have him on the podcast today . Chris , welcome in .
Speaker 2Megan , thank you for having me . I love chatting about this topic and chatting on podcasts in general .
Speaker 1Yeah , so fun . So tell us a little bit about your background what brought you to this point here today , and a little bit about Leadership Potential .
Speaker 2What brought you to this point here today and a little bit about leadership potential . Yeah , I got my start as a licensed therapist and I was working with adolescents with complex developmental trauma and I love that work . But I just got burned out . So I moved into learning and development because I still wanted to support people doing the work . I still wanted to stay involved and from there I just loved . I found a passion for training and coaching and helping other people get better at doing what they're doing .
Speaker 2And then I moved into leadership and organizational development and I just fell in love with the idea of working on systems , working on culture , working on big , big items , big problems , and then also helping leaders be better , because I was realizing leaders are the main effect and cause of kind of everything in the organization . You have a strong leader , you can have a strong team , you can have a strong organization and you can achieve your mission better . Essentially , that's all , and so that's what I do on my own now is I work with leaders who have inherited dysfunctional teams and organizations . Purpose-driven leaders who want to make a difference , but they're just dealing with dysfunctional teams or teams that are in conflict or chaos . They need to turn things around and never more apparent than now in our current climate in the world .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely , and so that's really where we're going to dig in today . I know when you take the stage at CauseCamp , we're going to be talking about how to have some of those difficult conversations as a leader , and I'm going to make an admission on the podcast today that I've not made before , and that is I've held a lot of leadership positions in my life over the course of my career , but at my core I am a chronic people pleaser and I feel like sometimes that makes these conversations really hard . And I see it so often in nonprofit leaders , especially where we want to be so nice because these folks are doing like they're helping the mission , but maybe there there's some poor performance or there's an issue or there's chaos , but at the same time we know like they are likely at a position where you were before is being burned out , they're probably not making the money that they could make somewhere else , and so we try to be really nice and really gracious and , I'll admit it , sometimes it has been to the detriment of my organization because I wasn't willing to step on toes , I wasn't willing to have that uncomfortable conversation . So let's talk about that . What do we have to do if somebody is in my position Because , I'm going to be honest , I think there's a lot more people pleasers out there in the world than not .
Speaker 1Nobody wants to make people uncomfortable . Nobody wants to do that . So if we are that , if somebody is in my boat as the chronic people pleaser but also in leadership my boat as the chronic people pleaser but also in leadership how do we even identify ? Like ? This is where we need to start to have those conversations . If we find ourselves in that , how do we get over the people
pleasing hump ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think it starts with mindset , and this is the example I use with lots of different leaders is do you have kids yourself ?
Speaker 1I do .
Speaker 2I have one grown daughter okay , imagine your daughter was back in middle school , right ? Imagine she came to you and said hey , mom , I'm not gonna do my math homework anymore , I just don't really care about it and I prefer to just focus on sports . What would you say to her ?
Speaker 1oh , that's a no-go . You gotta , yeah , you have . You have to meet those responsibilities .
Speaker 2Is it because you hate her that you're saying that ?
Speaker 1No .
Speaker 2Is it because you're stepping in her dreams and you don't want to pursue her dreams or passions ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I want her to be successful and graduate school and get into a good college to pursue her future .
Speaker 2I think that's the mindset that we need to think about when we think about having any of these difficult conversations . Yes , you care about the people and that's the mindset that we need to think about when we think about having any of these difficult conversations . Yes , you care about the people and that's good . You want to that . That'll help you structure the conversation and say it in a way that's caring , and not just me yelling at you or being disrespectful to you , and also recognizing that you setting boundaries . Having the hard conversation can come from a place of love , because you care about the person . You want them to succeed , you want them to do well , and so it's not about being mean or micromanaging or anything like those things that people get hung up on . It's about you care about them . You want them to succeed , and they can't succeed if you don't give them that direction or guidance or that feedback , or have that conversation about what's what they're missing or how they're missing the mark .
Speaker 1It's interesting , I think , that you use the word micromanage , because I think that has gotten this connotation lately , where nobody wants to be , that no one wants to be the micromanager , and we know that nobody wants to feel as a grown adult . I don't want to feel micromanaged either , and so I think I almost wonder if we've swung the pendulum too far away from it , and is that maybe causing a lot of this ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it happens a lot . I coach one leader now who she's in a hospital system , and she lost a person previously before I started with her , because she was so afraid of micromanaging she would let them do whatever they wanted , and luckily this person did a great job . They were on point , they did everything , but they eventually left because they just kept asking what else should I be doing , what else should I be doing ? And she wouldn't give them any guidance at all , and so he was like I don't know what to do about this , I'm just going to leave .
Speaker 1Yeah , okay , so let's put ourselves in that person's shoes . How do you course correct ? Because the image that's in my head right now is that thing that used to sit on everyone's desk , where you have the line of swinging metal balls right and we hit one and they all swing this way , if we find ourselves swinging too far , the natural tendency is to swing all the way back right . So if we find ourselves in that position where we have let something get out of control , we didn't want to micromanage , so everybody's kind of running amok and doing their own thing how do we course correct without going to the opposite extreme ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think of a two by two grid of , and you have one axis is accountability and one axis is support , and so you want to give them maximum accountability , but you also want to give them maximum support , as they need it to get to that point . And so that's where regular check-ins help is . You can course correct in the moment if they're missing the mark , if they're not doing something , if they're behind on something , and that's part of those coaching conversations . It's not about why aren't you doing this , it's more about what's getting in the way . Do you not have the skill , do you not have the knowledge ? Do you not have the tools or the resources ? And if any of these are missing , I can help you figure it out .
Speaker 2Right , let's say , this is your first time in this kind of role . You don't know how to do it . I do need to show you how to do it . I do need to either demonstrate it or teach you or have somebody mentor you , all those kinds of things . But you won't know that unless you start having more regular check-ins and get curious about what might be happening , because I think a lot of times also , a lot of us assume based upon our own experiences . This is why I struggled with it , or this is why I've seen somebody else struggle with it , so I assume you must be struggling with it because of this reason .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2But we're getting rid of those assumptions and getting back to . Let's be curious and let's just explore what's getting in the way for you and then let me help remove those roadblocks as much as .
Speaker 1I am able to . That's such a good call out and I feel like , especially in a nonprofit context , because you generally those teams are running so lean they're running you know , there's not always like an abundance of budget to pay for additional staff and so I feel like those regular check-ins are one of the first thing that flies out the door because everybody's running so lean , they're running a thousand miles a minute to get the program done . The internal structure of that gets lost . Yeah , yeah , is there so okay ? So let me ask it this way Is there
what's like the best ? Is there like a formula for how often we should be checking in ? What's a good kind of rubric for ?
Speaker 2Yeah , there's no , it depends . It depends . Everybody's job is so different , um , everybody's roles are so different , and so it really depends it's . It can't be less than once a month .
Speaker 2It should be at least once a month okay every week is nice , but also depends on the job and schedules and if you're working shifts you might not see each other all the time . But I think gallup had a some research back in 2018 , 2017 just one check-in a month can increase engagement by like 70% . Wow . So not even a one-to-one , not even a meeting , just a check-in like how are you , how's your day going ? That was their bar .
Speaker 2That most people don't even do or can't do because of you know , things are busy , we're flying from place to place , we're just in meetings all day or whatever , or we're out there in the field doing the work , whatever it might be Doing . That one check-in is just helpful once a month at least just to see how things are going , and the more you can put in , even better . You can do it every other week . If you can do a more formal every other week , once a week , that goes a long way just to see . Then that helps you figure out are they on track or not ? Right , and you develop them if they want to grow , if they want to enhance their career in some way .
Speaker 1I'm trying to envision . You know , I've worked in a lot of different places , a lot of different teams , a lot of different causes . I can't imagine a workplace where people aren't checking in with each other just to see how their day is going . Like that's the fact , that's the bar . Yeah , I feel like that is , man . I just want us to do better than that . Yeah , you'd be surprised yeah that feels like the lowest possible level of engagement , of , just like normal human behavior .
Speaker 2Right wow , but if people are , you know , I think I can certainly understand , right , if people have shift work , if people are different shifts or if they're constantly out in the field of some way and they have a big catchment area .
Speaker 2You know , let's say , la is a big I'm just using it because it's in the news , but it's a big city , right , it's huge , really huge . You might not see somebody if they're constantly going to schoolwork , if they're just visiting schools all the time . You really might not see them very much physically , right . So it's more incumbent on you to figure out how do I talk to them , how do I initiate contact , or even if you're remote , if I'm working in Texas and you're working in indiana , we got to find ways to connect on a regular basis , even if we're busy yeah , man , that's okay .
Speaker 1So that's a great call out . If you're not checking on your people , it's very easy for some of these situations to get ahead of you and you do not keep your finger on the pulse . So that's , I appreciate that call out . I want to flip , maybe , to the other side , because I really like the vision of your , the image of your grid right , where the goal is high support , but also giving that feedback . The opposite , though , it cannot . It doesn't necessarily have to be that total hands-off micromanager , but what does it look like when we are , or how do we avoid , I guess , being so overly supportive , like I would think it's easy to get that grit out of whack , I guess , is what I'm trying to say , but trying to stay in that top upper quadrant , it's so easy , there's so many other options . So where do you see leaders
fall ? Into other quadrants most often ?
Speaker 2You know , I would say in the nonprofit space , truly , they do give a lot of support . I think that's not really necessarily an issue as much . I think there's still issues . But I think it's the accountability , holding people accountable , as you mentioned in the beginning . How do you hold people accountable , right , when we're so nice and we don't want to hurt people's feelings ? And it's the not holding them accountable , giving them chance after chance or taking on their work if they don't do it , if they're late on it .
Speaker 2I'm just going to do their work and everybody just learns how to work around this person as much as possible and they're afraid to go out , either afraid or they don't know how to go through the progressive discipline process if things are not working out . But all those tools are there for a reason . You need to follow up , you need to give that feedback in the moment , have those disciplinary coaching conversations , but also go through that progressive discipline process If you need to . You need to escalate it because you need to set boundaries and guardrails right , otherwise anybody can do whatever they want .
Speaker 1If you want to spend less time on paperwork and more time making an impact , we have the solution for you . With Adobe Acrobat Pro , you can streamline reports , speed up contracts with e-signatures and create polished PDFs that inspire donors and engage volunteers . Work smarter with cloud access , top-tier security and powerful editing tools designed for teens on a mission . And with special nonprofit pricing it's efficiency you can afford . Apply for your discount now at adobecom . Slash nonprofits , slash acrobat . A lot of the folks in our organizations that are either listening to the podcast or go check it out tend to be at , I would say , organizations that are kind of earlier on , right , so they're sort of startups a lot of younger organizations who might not be in a place where those policies are in place , something they've ever had to think about because you know the original .
Speaker 1When you think of an organization like that , the original staff , the founder , the first couple people on board are so bought in and so like exactly sold out to the mission , that it's not until maybe you start to grow and bring in maybe the second or third wave of people that we start to have these . So a lot of organizations we find don't have discipline policies in place . They don't have an escalation procedure in place , and so things do get out of hand because they don't know what to do next . So in your work , what does that look like ? What should that policy include ? How many chances do we give people ? What do we want to make sure that we have in place from the jump so we always can go back to it ?
Speaker 2I would say number one get an hr consultant . If you're small , get somebody . You know there's always going to be some hr consultant within your price range that can at least help you set up some policies , right ? Yeah , because you want to have that . But essentially the the overall structure is you know , the first line is something happens , they miss a deadline , they do something incorrect or inappropriately , they're yelling in a meeting or swearing at you . That should be feedback , feedback , right ? Number one should be I'm giving you this constructive feedback and then from there , the next escalation .
If it continues , then you're giving that either a formal warning or written warning of some sort . And then , if it continues and then , depending on your own structure is then it's separation . From that point on , okay , and it seems I know it seems harsh because you're like it's a very quick turnaround . But yeah , again , you're , if you keep allowing this behavior to happen , right , there's a quote what you permit , you promote .
Speaker 1So the more you allow this behavior , you're not just allowing it , you're actually saying to everybody else it's okay to do this and I just I mean , I think this is one of those scenarios where the impact of not taking action is actually increasingly detrimental to an organization , right , not only does it can it harm the , the environment or the culture of your organization , but if someone is consistently I'm thinking , you know , we know , I know a lot of folks listening , work in programs that are maybe human services or working with children , or there's a lot of things , that , a lot of behaviors in that that are completely inappropriate and unacceptable . Right , and we can't allow that to continue .
Speaker 1That's right or the whole organization is going to close . So I think , yeah , inaction by itself is an action and it you can take the whole organization down in one fell swoop that way that's right .
Speaker 2And I think what I also see is like some organizations are hesitant to do that because they might be understaffed and they're like we can't afford to lose a body doing anywhere , even if it's , even if they're bad , even if they're bringing us down . Like we can't afford to lose a body doing anywhere , even if it's , even if they're bad , even if they're bringing us down . Like we can't afford to lose a physical body . And you know you'll have to make that choice . Right , but it goes back to your values also , right ? Like what kind of culture are you trying to set , what kind of organization you're trying to lead , and do the ends justify the means ? You know that's . That's the question everybody has to wrestle with . Does it it matter how you get there , or does it matter you know what you do day to day ? You know , and we can argue philosophically about that , but that's going to be a decision you have to make as a leader and as an organization . Does the mission matter more than how we get there ?
Speaker 1how some of the executive directors in our audience that might be listening to this episode , who , at least , this is what this is how it works for me . I'll listen to an episode and I think , oh my gosh , I now see a problem that I maybe didn't know existed or maybe I've been ignoring if . If that's the case , if the executive director is now looking and saying , maybe some of those middle managers are not pulling their weight to get their teams in line , how do we model that behavior ? Or how does the leader change middle management behavior appropriately to make sure that that trickles down all the way through your organization ?
Speaker 2Yeah , well , I think it's . If you've never addressed it before , let's say you've let it go on for a long time . It starts with addressing and acknowledging that . I think you can easily say not easily , but you could just frame it as I'm turning the corner here . We've let things go on for a long time . I'm recognizing we need to change . I want us to you know this is these are our values . I want us to you know these are our values . I want us to be able to do this , and it matters to me how our culture is . So let's work together from now on . Let's work . Let's start with a blank slate . Let's do this , and so everybody start with a blank slate of what's appropriate , what's not appropriate , and also clarifying what happens if you do these behaviors . So , if you were to do this , going forward , this is what's going to happen . These are the next steps . You know , even if it's not super formal , you're a small place , you don't have an hr team . You could say if you , if this happens again , we're going to have a conversation , we're going to have a coaching conversation , we're going to have a you know , just a one-to-one about it give some feedback and we're going to work on this and then we're going to escalate it if it continues . Right , but it's being clear on that part .
Speaker 2I worked with a VP of a . It was an international , like wine company and so for profit , and she was having the same problem , right ? So this is a VP of a for-profit company , the same issue that she has a senior director that for a year and a half was not pulling his weight . And just in our conversation she was like I've been giving him too many chances . I don't know why I just keep saying that I'll give him an extra chance . And she realized like she can't let it go on . It's an hour , it's a year and a half .
Speaker 1She needs to let him go because it was just dragging everything down by him not doing his job correctly and that's I mean that's impact to the bottom line . Yeah Right and we yeah right and we can't . And even in a non-profit right , we can't continue to let folks impact to the bottom line , especially when resources are already scarce and thin to begin with right .
Speaker 2So , this executive director , you got to start modeling it . You got to start having the conversation , bringing it up on a regular basis . It's got to be ongoing and you got to model it too , right ? So you got to be careful about how you're showing up , how you're what you're saying , what you're not saying in front of people and being clear , and if something happens , then you have to address it . You got to show I'm being serious about this or we're being serious about this now . So something's happened , now we're going to address it .
Speaker 1That I appreciate the call out and I think that requires a level of humility that can sometimes feel antithetical to the like portrayal of a leader . Right , we want to , we want to be the we've got all the answers . But to say like , hey , I have been doing this wrong and we're going to switch , we're going to flip the page , here's what we're doing . That requires we're going to flip the page , here's what we're doing . That requires a level of humility that can be really tough in and of itself .
Speaker 2It is .
I think that's the . I find that a lot of leaders mistakenly think that to be a leader , you need to be that hard charging . I'm confident , I'll never say sorry , I'll just do what I got to do . Yeah , you know , and there's all types of leaders you know . That type of leader is really only good in a crisis situation , like if we're in a crisis , like you know , whatever's happening , we need to have somebody make good decisions , quick decisions and it doesn't matter , right , like . A good example is Rudy Giuliani , mayor of New York City during 9-11 . That type of leadership style is really good for that type of situation there's an urgent thing happening and we need to fix it a crisis . That type of leadership is not good in regular times or every other day life .
Speaker 1Right , just normal existence yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think there was a study years ago where they told a group of participants your organization in trouble and in crisis and you need to fix it . What are the qualities of a leader that you would want to lead you through this ? And they listed all very stereotypically feminine characteristics , right , like caring , empathic , listening . And then when they were given a resume the same exact resume , one with a female name , one with a male name they overwhelmingly chose the male resume because they still have that stereotype in the head of they need like a masculine approach , even though they all feel like they need this caring , somebody listening to us and understanding and empathic .
Speaker 2And so I think we all have that bias in our head , or a lot of people have that bias , but you just have to be yourself as a leader and it's okay to you know , be humble , be curious and listen .
Speaker 1Oh , that could start me on a soapbox about all sorts of things on the way that we look at male versus female leadership that's right and how those are . Oh , I could get on on a whole different . That's a whole other episode , yeah , so , chris , tell me a little bit what is your favorite part of your work ?
Speaker 2I love the light bulb moments of uh when people , when we're working , when I'm working with somebody one-on-one , and they suddenly say , oh , oh , why didn't I think of this ? Oh , this makes total sense , why don't I do this instead ? And the way I do it ? I'm not telling them the answer , right , but they've come to the answer themselves and I love that transformation because it's also a realization that they had the answer all along . They knew how to do it , they knew what to do . We're just all stuck in the day-to-day life and we get inundated with all these emergencies , personal and professional , and we're trying to figure out how to filter all that out . We really have a lot People have the answers with themselves a lot of the times , and so I love drawing that out and seeing that transformation into being somebody who's like all right , I know what to do now , as opposed to when we start , when they're like I'm stuck , I have no idea what to do .
Speaker 1This is terrible yeah , well , and I think because we get so stuck in the you know , the forest for the trees , right , we can't . I'm so stuck in the day-to-day that it's hard to take a step back and see that bigger picture , so that has to be really encouraging for you to watch . Yes , exactly , yeah , yeah , very good . And if somebody wanted to learn more about you or connect with you and learn more about the work that you do and the services that you provide , how would we do that ?
conversations where we talk about this a lot more . But you'll find resources . You'll find my newsletter . If you want to listen , get my resources . You can also get in contact with me there , but and you can also just find me on LinkedIn Chris Wong , lmhc .
Speaker 1I , so you and I are LinkedIn connected and I really appreciate . Is it Thursdays ?
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1Where you talk about specific difficult conversations . Yeah , yeah , Really good , Because there's so many . I feel like you know , especially as a leader . There's so many conversations that that we get caught up in in the course of a day or in the course of a week . But there has yet to be one that I've seen from you where I'm like oh , my gosh , that doesn't apply to me at all . Right , Every single one of them I can think about like , oh , that's , that's really good . I should have done that the last time , but I know for next time and here's how we'll do it . So , yes , highly recommend going to connect with Chris if , if for no other reason than the Thursday LinkedIn posts .
Speaker 2I appreciate that . You know when I first started that I was like is anybody going to care that I do ?
Speaker 1this on .
Speaker 2Thursdays ? I don't know , we'll see .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , no , I really like it as a , as a series , because I think , yeah , it's super relatable . If nothing else , it makes me sometimes feel better of like , oh , I actually think I did . I had a conversation similar and I handled it the right way and , yes , I've had a little pat on the back moment on occasion oh nice , very encouraging , awesome thanks very good .
Speaker 1Uh so , chris , one of the things that I've been doing on the podcast this season as we wrap up , because this is has been a crazy year for a lot of non-profits . They're going through all sorts of stuff . If you could give one piece of advice or wisdom to those non-profit leaders , one piece of encouragement , what would that be ?
Speaker 2can I give two ? Absolutely , I would say , if you haven't already , get into mindfulness to use as a skill to just calm yourself down and keep yourself relaxed . There's a person I I I follow on linkedin , megan whitney . She does a lot of stuff around mindfulness and preventing burnout , but as a therapist , I also think it's a useful skill . I teach it to everybody and I think it's just a useful skill , especially especially when you're in a crisis , when things feel like they're falling around you . You got to find ways to keep yourself calm and appropriate . So I'd say , number one get into mindfulness , find ways to keep yourself chill . And I would say number two I was thinking about this all , I couldn't think of anything specific . But I would say number two just keep trying , don't stop , keep trying . I think it's easy to feel overwhelmed by everything and it's never going to be one specific person that's going to change the world or change the future . It's the culmination of everybody's efforts together . So just keep trying , keep doing the best you can .
Speaker 1I love that , chris , so good . I really appreciate this conversation . I think it's not one we get to have often for leaders , but I think it's a really good one and I'm excited to have you speak more about that at CauseCamp coming up this November .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm looking forward to it . I went to Penn State , so I love .
Speaker 1Pennsylvania .
Speaker 2Yeah , so I'm looking forward to being in Pittsburgh .
Speaker 1Fantastic , yeah . So CauseCamp coming up November 4th and 5th here in Pittsburgh . Go ahead and get your registration in , because it did sell out last year and we don't want you to miss out on amazing
content from people like Chris and from industry leaders across the country . So , yeah , excited to see you in person there . Yeah .
Speaker 2I'm excited .
Speaker 1Very good , chris . Thanks so much for joining us Again . My guest has been Chris Wong , who's a founder and executive coach at Leadership Potential . My name is Megan Spear and this has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast . We'll see you next time .