Taboo Science and a Cisgender Teen Perspective on Transgender Dating (118)

In this episode, we continue the conversation on transgender dating through the lens of parents navigating both their transgender teen’s experience and the perspectives of their cisgender sibling.

After listening to the Taboo Science podcast on dating, we explore how beliefs, assumptions, and social norms shape reactions to attraction, disclosure, and identity. What does it look like to hold love, respect, and differing views within the same family?

We also touch on how the emotion of disgust and cultural messaging influence these responses in ways we may not fully recognize.

Referenced episodes:
Hidden Brain – Yuck: The Science of Disgust
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/yuck-the-science-of-disgust/id1028908750?i=1000754073496

Taboo Science – Dating
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/taboo-science/id1533606473?i=1000746194426

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As always, feel free to reach out to us at transparentlyspeakingpodcast@gmail.com.

Transcript

Joy: [00:00:00] Diana, I think today we're gonna do some key updates of what's going on in our world, and one of the things that we talked about, I think it was just two episodes ago, was the stressor that is showing up in our world with Samantha dating.

And I had mentioned that I was excited or I really needed to listen to a podcast for some additional context. The Taboo Science Podcast, which we've mentioned a couple times. I finally did that, so I thought we could start there. 

Diana: Okay. But first they're still dating, correct? 

Joy: They are, yes.

I, it seems like , they're really good friends too, so I don't anticipate, and who knows, they're 16 years old and things could change tomorrow. 

Diana: True. That's why I asked. Okay. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Diana: Tell us about the, what you, I heard of the podcast too, but tell me what you thought. 

Joy: Yeah, I think it was done really well. So I continue to really appreciate this podcast.

So for those who, are enjoying listening to [00:01:00] us and appreciate, especially, the great context around, , transgender experience. There's a couple episodes I noticed titles I really wanna go back and catch up on. I think it's set up really well and my overall take is. Elements of it are relevant for us, and lots of elements are not as relevant for us because the audience is largely trans adults or people using dating apps, especially in this context of using a dating app to meet people.

How would you decide whether or not you disclose upfront? , And then if you don't disclose upfront, what are the risks that you're taking? In that space of, , first meeting someone and , then I suppose as you choose to further develop that relationship, at what point in time are you choosing to disclose?

They didn't have a huge conversation about that, but the insight that I took and the piece that feels really raw. [00:02:00] Is this very clear messaging around the risk for trans people, specifically for their health and their wellness. Like there is a real risk and a danger of physical harm and violence against transgender people.

Diana: Mm. Where does that leave you? 

Joy: Terrified. I mean, I think that that. Is the biggest risk that, that's the biggest concern, , if either Samantha chooses to disclose or something is discovered and there's some form of anger or, , I'm trying to think what word was used in the podcast.

They talked about, , somebody feeling.

 , Like lied to or deceived? 

, Yeah. If someone's feeling deceived, , how does that show up for people? And that's where this concept of some version of violence might show up again. I wanna believe that, [00:03:00] that that wouldn't happen.

And we just don't know, right? Mm-hmm. We just don't know.

Diana: Yeah, I, as you were saying that like I had this flashback and it's not the same, but I've never forgotten it. This flashback to when Clark came out at seven years old. Seven, and I told one of the parents of his friends and, ah. I am telling you that she is the lesbian because I think it made me assume she would have a better response.

She was supportive, so that wasn't an issue. And not every gay person is, I just wanna say from my experience, she was supportive and. She said to me, did you see the movie? Boys Don't Cry. So if you don't know that movie, I think Hillary Swank won an Oscar for her portrayal of Brendan Tina, , was based on a true story.

Brendan [00:04:00] Tina was a true person who was a transgender young man. And in the movie, it's a horrific, I, I couldn't even watch it. , Sexual assault scene to like. Anyway, I dunno, I can't even talk about it. But , the parent was saying to me, did you see that movie? Because you must know, you have to tell everyone that he's transgender.

'cause that could happen to him. And my kid was seven like. It was not an image I ever, like after I saw that movie, I thought it was very good. And this was before having a transgender child. I never wanted to see it again because it was really hard to watch. But Anyway, all that to say, I think I buried all of that. And when you were talking, I was like, that fear, 

Joy: and I haven't seen it and I don't think I can watch it. 

Diana: Don't, 

Joy: Hey son, lemme 

Diana: give you some romcoms to watch. [00:05:00] 

Joy: That's what I do. And so I think, yeah, so I think that that's like, even though we don't wanna believe it's possible, it's, it's a real, feels like a real threat.

Diana: It does, and it's much higher whether we like it or not, in transgender women, especially transgender women of color.

And it's a threat. It's the threat for everyone. 

Joy: It is. And I think , this piece of, perception of deceit. That I think it's a natural human thing to believe that other people are doing things for some reason to like , harm you, right? Mm-hmm. As compared to. When most of us can be calm or are able to reflect, we often realize that someone else's behavior has absolutely nothing to do with us.

It's whatever they're navigating and dealing with in the [00:06:00] moment. And I'd love to believe that all of us can be in that space of just curiosity or acknowledging that we all make choices based on how we're trying to navigate the world. And so. , I'd love to believe, , as Samantha continues in her life, she's going to be developing relationships, , at various levels of intimacy, whether we're talking about friendships or

sexual relationships , and she's gonna have to navigate this. , I can only imagine, , what that will be like for her, but it feels very hard. She's gonna make judgment calls all the time about who is she choosing to trust, who is gonna be willing to see her for who she is versus see her for this language of gender identity and mm-hmm.

What all might come with that for different people. 

Diana: Yeah. I think, you know, we want them to have love and to have the experiences of relationships and even heartbreaks 'cause that's part of life. And I think it [00:07:00] always hurt my heart that as far as I know, Clark never dated anybody. The whole high school never dated anyone.

And I think. Maybe I feel a little bit better that the next two, Grayson and Bruce haven't had any partners either so I'm like, oh, maybe it's just part of this family. I don't know. well on that note, go ahead. 

Joy: I was gonna say, what breaks your heart or , what makes you sad about that?

Diana: For Clark, I think, I feel like they're for all of them, not just Clark, that they're missing a part of the experience of growing up. just saying, I like you to somebody, or navigating. How do you communicate with someone else that I like you, do you like me? And things like [00:08:00] that. And navigate the heartbreak when it ends.

Even if you're glad it ends. I feel like there's still a little bit of heartbreak. To me, it's a part of life and, and. It was funny 'cause when I had kids I was like, I don't want them to be partner. Crazy. You know? For me it was boy crazy as a kid. Like to me it was a sign of insecurity.

So I was like, okay, good. They're not partner. Crazy. Okay. They're not even like, they're not even on the spectrum. 

Joy: They're not even adjacent to part. Right. 

Diana: So, so I think, I feel like that's a big part. And I remember one time being at a conference for parents of transgender kiddos and a social worker telling me, 'cause we were having a one-on-one that.

He has seen many transgender guys never date anybody until they become adults. And, and in their mind, once they have bottom surgery, which isn't very [00:09:00] common for, transgender men, but a lot of them would tell him, once I have bottom surgery, then I'll start dating someone. 

Joy: Hmm. 

Diana: , I don't think Clark wants bottom surgery.

So that's, I mean, this is, I have strong belief that that's the true, but we haven't had a direct conversation about it in a long time. So, 

Joy: that, I think that's interesting, right? Is back to, , how someone sees themselves, how others might see them, or how their body reflects who they see themselves as.

Um, mm-hmm. In terms of being willing to step into that space of relationship and intimacy , I agree with you that I think relationships in general offer a lot of learning, and I sort of wish Samantha was more on the same page of Clark and your, and your kiddos.

Diana: That's fair. I'm not gonna lie. That's fair. I mean, I [00:10:00] did have some relief to it. And both relief and heartbreak, like they both can exist. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Diana: but the other thing that was really interesting, 'cause I'm gonna tell you what my kids said, my two oldest said about disclosure, but before I do, I think it's important to bring out, in that podcast they talked about how I.

We pathologize people dating or liking transgender people, like it's a fetish if you date a transgender person or something like that. And they made the point that lots of us, myself included, even though it's been a long time since they've been in the dating scene, only were interested or only dated cisgender heterosexual people.

But we don't call that a fetish. And so I think that was really. An eye-opening point that was made of what that does to the societal psyche of how they look at a transgender person when it's made to be something pathologized whereas people that only [00:11:00] date what society considers quote the norm, right?

Cisgender, heterosexual people are not a fetish. 

Joy: , I agree. I really appreciated that perspective. It sort of widened my eyes too. They referenced other potential, situations or areas of interests. Maybe if somebody's really interested in overweight people or someone with, , a physical disability or something like that.

It's again, these minority sort of experiences , if someone were to find that attractive. There is this perception that that is a fetish as compared to again, , what society sees as the norm. I thought it was very interesting. 

Diana: Mm-hmm. So it brings me to my kids' answers. My oldest two, I only asked the oldest two.

I asked Clark, I did what? I said. I have a friend who's a transgender daughter, 16 dating a guy. She's not disclosed. When do you think she should disclose? Clark's [00:12:00] answer, like whenever she feels like it's the right time. Like he said, I don't think there's a, you have to do at the beginning. You have to do the end like she could decide for herself when it's time.

I was like, all righty, now let's go to the other school.

And when I talked to Grayson and these conversations were alone, like no one else was listening when I talked to Grayson about it, who turns 18 tomorrow and he's a senior in high school. And he said right away, she should tell him right away at the beginning. And I said, well, why? And he said, because some people aren't into that kind of thing.

Joy: Yeah. And, , that's his question. , What is this thing 

Diana: exactly? I could tell , at that point, he was defensive, like it was his answer, but he [00:13:00] Knew that I might come after him and I don't want to, like, he's allowed to have his opinions and I wanna have a discussion.

So what I said is, I'm like, because the assumption is the genitals are different. And I said, what if you're dating a girl with cliteromegaly? He is like, I don't even know what that is. So I'm like, okay, for ruining my search history, I'm gonna show you a search and show you a picture so you have some concept of what I'm talking about.

He's like, I don't think I'd notice. I'm like, uh, you would notice. Trust me on this. Nothing wrong with it, but you, yes. And so it was hard. He's like, well, I just, I can't even picture it. I can't imagine it. So I said, what about a colostomy bag? What's that? So I'd explain, , it's a bag. They reroute the stool.

It, it's usually in the lower abdomen. I would know. I said, no people dress so that you cannot see that. so I didn't [00:14:00] get anywhere What I was trying to get at, is it the difference in genitalia or do you not see transgender women as women? But he went on to have the conversation that most people see their partner. I'm not gonna verbalize it well, 'cause it's, I'm gonna make it sound terrible.

He's made it sound a little bit better, but it's not great. As an object, like to some degree , the physical partner is an object. And so that object is not the object that they want or something to that degree. So after I heard the podcast, I came back to him and made the point of the fetishes, right?

One's a fetish, one's not. And he's like, well, that's what I said. It's like an object. I said, yes. It is an object, but we don't pathologize liking the object. That's a cisgender heterosexual. And he paused and he said, that's a good point. And that was the end of that. I did also bring up, [00:15:00] I'm like, if she tells right away, if anyone tells right away, 

then they have the risk. Like what if it doesn't go anywhere? Now you've just disclosed you have the risk of way more people knowing than you want to know. He said, true. Well, somewhere near the beginning, fine, have the first date, but if you think it's gonna go someplace beyond that, I'll give you that. So.

I'm glad we're not using our names 'cause it hurts my heart to have to be honest about what Grayson believes. But this just go show with, even in my own family, there's different views and different thoughts. And when Clark said, what did Grayson say when you asked him? I was like, you need to ask him yourself.

And then he got all angry. I was like, well, don't assume that you know what he said. Because honestly , even if Grayson had had the same answer as Clark, I wouldn't told Clark that if you wanna know what he thinks, you ask him what he thinks. 

Joy: Yeah. , So I just wanna [00:16:00] thank you, first of all for being brave and sharing that.

'cause I can like see even on your face how there's some like pain or dissonance for you, right? That, . One of your children who you love dearly is saying something has a set of beliefs or something that you wish were different. 

Diana: A hundred percent. 

Joy: Yeah. And 

Diana: I don't wanna shut him down for it, 

Joy: right? I think it's beautiful that you're giving him the space to be the individual that he is, and you're also showing up with curiosity.

So I don't think many of us can do that. That's the first thing. I just wanna acknowledge is you were really just creating space for whatever he thinks and believes to be. Okay. Even if you disagree with it, as you were talking, two things came up for me, 

One is in the podcast. The other thing I thought was very interesting. Was there were a couple people that were brought in, transgender individuals, talking about their experience and their [00:17:00] story. And apparently one is very famous. I didn't know them. And, another person was talking about pushing sort of the envelope. Maybe for somebody, , like your son to say. , I'm not so sure that's true. Like you might not even know they're transgender. You might actually be attracted to them. And just having this belief that you wouldn't be into somebody because they're transgender, like really limits, , an opportunity, , or really is a limiting belief that that immediately might turn you off.

And it was this broader concept of sexuality and interest and. Joy and how all of this shows up in the world. And I thought that was really , an insightful , and beautiful thought too. Like how do we get people to acknowledge and recognize that. Uh, even though we have this set of societal norms in our head mm-hmm.

Can we actually get curious like, ooh, , when I look at something, what is beautiful? What might I actually be attracted to [00:18:00] without layering over, what am I supposed to be attracted to? Oh, if that's not, , a standard or a norm, does that mean I'm not supposed to like it or I'm not supposed to be attracted to it?

. There's this element, I'm gonna use a word that feels really strong to me, is disgust, and some listeners may recall, I talked about a trip I made just a little over a year ago with some girlfriends, and I talked with her about the fact that Samantha was going to homecoming or had gone to homecoming with this boy who didn't know that she's transgender.

And she had made some comment about, oh my gosh, well, what if they kiss? And what if he realizes later that he kissed, At the time she said a boy, and I was like, my daughter's a girl. Like, let's be very clear. Anyways, all the things, and again, it's back to this mindset of how disgusting would it be, right?

If somebody doesn't know the full situation. It's all about these societal norms and what's in her head, and what I loved about a couple points in this podcast is it just created this space for. [00:19:00] What if we just allow ourselves as humans, to be humans and respond and react in ways, and acknowledge what we might be attracted to without needing to label it.

Diana: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: So that felt really powerful to me and. As as such, the space of discussed. I know that there's a Hidden Brain Podcast. I don't know if you ever listened to that, Diana, but I really like it. Mm-hmm. I don't listen regularly, but when I can catch it on my NPR station in the car, I love to listen. And I caught a very small snippet about a recent episode here this month in March.

of discussed. So maybe I can include that too in the show notes for anybody else that's interested. 

Diana: Yeah, I mean there are a couple of things that came up there. I did get the sense from Grayson, and this is why it also hurt my heart that, 'cause I made the point also after listening to that podcast, that transgender people in general, if you put a whole hundred of them in front of you, [00:20:00] may have all different appearances and you might find, might find yourself attracted to somebody and he kind of, hmm, maybe. But it was that sense and he didn't say it.

Is that, that that would make a. A guy that was attracted to a transgender woman, gay. And so I actually, I didn't ask him, but I called it out. I said, you know, the person's not gay. If it's a guy attracted to a transgender woman, that doesn't make them gay. And Mm. So I don't know. Mm means, , like either I get it, don't, don't explain it to me or I disagree.

I'm not sure which it was to be honest, but. Also when we talk about disgust, , , that groundwork has been laid by Hollywood to some degree. Like, , these are much older movies, but the Crying Game, when this beautiful woman in the movie and he [00:21:00] finds out is a transgender woman, like he's throwing up.

Right. And in comedic movies, ACE Ventura, when most of the cast realized they had kissed this woman who was a transgender woman. They're throwing up. Everyone's throwing up. So that has been perpetuated. And I think in both of those movies there's disgust, but there's also the idea that that makes me gay.

And that's disgusting too. So there are so many problematic things in all of that. That I was like, I didn't make the world better with this kiddo.

Joy: That's being really hard on yourself, Diana. I just, I that you need to come up with a different phrase. Just say to yourself, 

Diana: I know. That's how I feel. Um, I mean, I know, and I did say, I'm like, do you still believe in transgender rights? [00:22:00] And he said, yes, I do. I just don't talk about that.

Joy: , Okay. So there's so much development as a teenager, he has yet to go through, and I'm so glad that he has some experience in your family to be able to see things from that perspective of saying he's supporting transgender rights. What I want to mention, whether it's about your son, Diana, or about others, is I think.

What you just named there, this, oh, if I'm attracted to a transgender individual, does that that make me gay? It's back to, I think there's so many layers of complexity with identity and who we are and what does it mean if we like something. What does it mean if I'm attracted to this, but other people use these labels to, to reference that, or, I think that's a huge complication in our lives because we are social creatures and we're constantly [00:23:00] navigating social norms and what does it mean if I wanna buck against the norms?

Mm-hmm. 

Diana: Yeah, and I thank you for saying that. I do think it's more complicated for him because he hasn't had friends 

Grayson 

Most of high school until this year, , , he doesn't bring his friends around our house, so I've met some of them through athletic events, or at least their parents.

I don't get the sense that they're homophobic or transphobic, and I think there is, this does have something to do with the age group, some level of it Still there. And he does not want to get kicked out of a group he finally found. So thank you for reminding me that he's still young. He's going to spread his wings after high school, and there's so much [00:24:00] learning that, I mean, I'm still learning, like all of us have, 

Joy: right?

Just think about this, Diana, like my journey on this space of seeking to understand. The concept of being transgender only happened because of my kid, right? , And we're always learning. The people in our lives invite us into seeing the world differently, and your kid has some of those experiences, and as he moves on, he's just gonna continue to need to assess his current sets of beliefs against ways to see the world and ways to experience the world differently.

And you create a beautiful space for him to do that and to be thoughtful about it. 

Diana: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I hope so. I, I'm realizing this is a common pattern for me., It took a lot of coaching, a lot to let go of the fact that I couldn't get my [00:25:00] mom and her husband to understand, and they're supportive now. I wouldn't say they completely understand, especially Dina.

I don't think they accept Dina as being transgender. I used to say like, what kind of advocate can I be if I can't even get my own family who knows the human face of this to understand, to the degree I want them to understand? And I've worked really hard to let that go, that like the two things don't necessarily go together. And so I realized some of that I think is creeping in with Grayson like my own kid. The brother like you know, has lacks a lot of understanding in my opinion. From the little bit he shares me, I take responsibility for that.

So thank you for pointing out that old pattern of mine. I will not be so hard on myself. 

Joy: Well, and we can't take responsibility for others. 

Diana: No, we can't. 

Joy: Right. That's, we can't. [00:26:00] 

Diana: That's one of the greatest gifts of coaching, realizing that. 'cause I was really trying to change the world to my world. 

Joy: Yeah, exactly.

That is always our preference. And how is it now that, do you realize what your sphere influence is? 

Diana: I think it helps me to release the pressure aspect of teaching and accept, accept the diversity of thought. But it's easier for me to approach that conversation when there's no pressure of I have to make it different.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Diana: I'd like to make a different, but that feels different than I have to make a different, 

Joy: yeah. I think when we can acknowledge , our circle of control. And the scheme of things is pretty limited to what the actions and the choices we make directly. Of course, we hope to influence the people around us, but at the end of the day, we can't force [00:27:00] behaviors, thoughts, beliefs.

We can only look to inform and influence. 

Diana: Yeah. Well, there you have it. We're gonna give you more updates, but, Dating is always a topic and societal thoughts in itself, and it's worth the conversation. I hope it spurs on other people's conversation to really look at your own beliefs and your own thoughts and evaluate them.