Breathe Better, Feel Better: How Conscious Breathing Calms Anxiety & Resets Your Nervous System

What if one of the most powerful ways to manage stress and anxiety was something you’re already doing all day—breathing?

In this episode, Barb is joined again by somatic yin yoga instructor Annie Au to explore the power of conscious breathing. Together, they discuss why there’s no single “right” way to breathe, and how simply becoming aware of your breathing patterns can help you better understand what’s happening in your body.

Annie explains how different types of breathing can either calm or energize you, depending on your state, and why long exhales are such an effective way to bring the body back to a relaxed, safe place. They also talk about the connection between breath and anxiety, how the nervous system responds to stress, and simple techniques you can use in everyday moments to reset and feel more in control.

This conversation is a reminder that small, intentional changes—like how you breathe—can have a big impact on how you feel.

Connect with Annie by visiting her website https://annieauyoga.com or find her on Instagram @annie_au_yoga.

Find us on Instagram @convoswithboomerspod .

If you like our show, make sure you follow us on your favourite Podcast player. Feel free to rate and review our show and tell us what you'd like to hear, and what other topics you'd like Barb to explore!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

You know, even though I say it's an unlikely event, when I use an example in one of my trainings before, I had two students raise their hands and go, I just got chased by a bear last week.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

You are listening to What's Next Conversations with Boomers. And I'm Barb Demaray, your host. Last week we had on David Cravit and Larry Wolf, and we were talking about important exercises that you need to do uh as you get older that contribute towards longevity. And one of the things that entered into the conversation was the importance of conscious breathing. And I immediately thought this would make a really good episode. And from there, I immediately thought of a guest that we had on not too long ago, Annie O, who taught us all about somatic yin yoga. Although Annie does say she's not specifically a breathwork practitioner, which there are some, but she certainly incorporates breathing and talks about different ways to breathe in her classes. So, Annie, welcome back.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Hello, Barb. Thanks for having me back.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

I am so glad you were able to come. So, should we just dive into this? Absolutely. Okay, so many times we are told that we are not, we don't breathe properly. So, what is the right way to breathe?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

So instead of jumping into, you know, the right and wrong, I actually want to challenge the idea is is there a right way to breathe? Right. Okay. Because often the human minds like that. We like the black and white. We like to be like, oh, I'm not doing this right. So let's fix it. And when I fix it, I'll be, you know, perfect, I'll be healthy, I'll be happy. But in essence, our breath is a communication tool, along with you know, keeping us alive. The breath is the quickest thing to communicate back to us when we respond to our external world. So think of the moments when you feel stressed out or you know, somebody spooked to you. Like your breath changes immediately, right? So instead of thinking, you know, what is right and wrong, I would like to challenge is what is your breathing pattern in your day-to-day? Right. When you do notice that you are maybe holding your breath in your chest and shoulders, what is happening in your world? Right. And then when you are in a place where you feel safe with your loved ones or doing an activity that you enjoy, how does your breath change? You following me? Yeah. And that's where I want to guide um, you know, our listeners to is that, you know, instead of jumping into fixing, let's start with noticing.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Noticing. Yeah. Do you know when we when you were on before, we did talk about anxiety, and it's something that I have deal with a lot. And I have read many times that when you're anxious, you don't realize, but we're holding our breath, which of course tightens our whole body, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Absolutely. So anxiety is a response to maybe, you know, a threat or a danger. It can be real or perceived, right? Like it can just be all happening in our mind. And what happened is state followed the story. Like when we have a story that's running in our head, the state of our physiology changes. And maybe this like subconscious holding of the breath is is how we feel safe in our body. It doesn't mean it's good for us, it's just the way of the body coping.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Yeah. So talk about chest breathing versus belly breathing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Chest breathing, yeah, in general, is what I call an upregulator. Yeah, it's something that energizes us, it gets us really alert, hyper-vigilant, even. And so normally, notice when we feel anxious or overwhelmed, not only do we subconsciously hold our breath, we also send all of our breathing towards the chest and shoulders, right? And in a way, instead of thinking it's right or wrong, it is a state of where we go, hey, I feel anxious now. Let's the breathing is going to change to reflect how we see the world. And so therefore, the chest breathing and the shoulder breathing is often linked with getting us high in a heightened state. In a heightened state. So of course, when we do realize that, hey, I'm feeling anxious, I'm noticing there's chest breathing and shoulder, or even holding my breath, we can we can kind of counteract that. We can go, okay, let's send the breath deep to the belly. Let's do some visualization. Imagine the breath is you know like a waterfall coming downward, right? That's what I love integrating in my classes is a lot of visualization along with the breathing. And when we do that, we're actually doing the reverse, which is down regulating, right? So we're bringing the nervous system in a more calming state. Now, is it bad or good? There really isn't bad or good. It's like what is necessary in that moment, right? Maybe feeling anxious and overwhelmed is it's necessary in that moment to get us out of danger. Like imagine if, you know, like just you know, this is a really unlikely scenario, like you're being chased by a lion, right? Or a bear. And you go, I'm so calm in my belly. Like that doesn't get you out of danger, right? You know, even though I say it's an unlikely event, I when I use an example in one of my trainings before, I had two students raise their hands and go, I just got chased by a bear last week. What was the likelihood of that? What was it? A park ranger, and then another girl lives in Colorado, like near the mountain range, and she was walking her dogs and she got chased by a bear. I was like, okay. So it is likely, right? But so think of the breath as an as, you know, first is a communication tool trying to tell you what's happening internally. And if it's accurately reflecting the external, let's say you are being chased by a bear, you know, having chest and shoulder breathing might be a good thing because it's it heightens you, it kicks you into survival mode, you know, your cortisol adrenaline start pumping, you're preparing for fight or flight. However, if you're in the safety of your own home and you're you're noticing you're doing chest and shoulder breathing, that's not necessary. So what's happening is you're stuck in what we call the stress cycle. And you're you're having trouble completing your stress response. And that's what I do is come in with somatic tools, the yin yoga, the breathing to help you go back to a calming state. And often we do use belly breathing along with visualization.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

So, as you say, Annie, it's being conscious of how you're breathing. Because, you know, there are times when you are going to chest breathe and it's because you're in a dangerous situation. It's just that we don't want to stay in that state. That's that's what's not healthy. So share with us how you incorporate healthy breathing into your classes. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Firstly, is again awareness. Yeah, notice your breathing pattern, right? So in yoga in general, not just exclusive to somatic yin, there is a habit for yoga teachers to cue the breath for cueing's sake. Yeah. Have you ever taken a class that you know, inhale arms up, exhale, arms down, right? That's being taught in teacher trainings. Not all types of yoga, you know, some types are more uh focusing on breathing, some are just, you know, breathe. You know, they're more focusing on the posture itself. But when it comes to trauma-informed somatic yin, firstly, is to draw attention to your own breathing pattern, right? Instead of jumping into fixing, we go, okay, notice what is happening in your body. And then instead of habitually, you know, no cueing, you know, you know, breathe on the exhale, you know, then you fold forward, it's more we use the breath to activate the rest and digest nervous system. So unless I am consciously directing the students, the person in front of me to soften into their nervous system, I actually don't mention the breath at all because we just naturally breathe anyway, right? No one is, you know, purposely holding their breath the whole class. So let's say if there's a moment in class where I go, you know, I've noticed there's a lot of tension in in the room. I'm noticing there's a lot of tension in in the students, then I might cue. Let's take a sharp inhale and let's exhale as long as we can. Because by doing that, I'm drawn their awareness, yeah, to do that long exhale to trigger the rest of the digestive nervous system. Right. But imagine if I just go the whole entire 60-minute, you know, inhale and exhale. My voice will become the background instead of intentional cueing. Instead of being there for them and guiding them, I'm just kind of like that white noise in the back, and it loses the power of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

It's profoundly effective when you take a deep inhale and a really long exhale. It's you feel your whole body relaxing. I mean, it's it's a way to get you out of your sympathetic nervous system in almost seconds, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Absolutely. It's literally one of the most effective ways. And that is why there are a lot of breath work facilitators who do, you know, their whole sessions around breathing. But that being said, you know, it's brilliant in their work. But that being said, let's say if someone who are more prone to anxiety or overwhelmed, they have their unintegrated emotions that haven't been processed, that can be very overwhelming. Right. So we have to look at that just because breathing is powerful, doing more of it does is not necessarily helpful. It's more about doing intentional breathing at the right moment with the right dosage. That's how I see it and how I approach it in my teaching.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

I, you know, as you know, I've taken many of your classes. And I know that you teach us to when you're inhaling, okay, raise your arms. It just sort of guides you to the inhale. Right? And then and then oh, do we hold our breath for a minute?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Or not a minute, not necessarily holding our breath. No, it's a a pause before the exhale.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

A pause before the and then a long exhale. It is so effective. And I I mean, I I try and do it as often as I can if I'm feeling stressed. Okay, deep breath, long exhale. Is it better to exhale through your mouth when you're doing those long exhales?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

You know, I think it's it's the best to do what works best for you. Yeah. For some people it could be the nose, for others it can be the mouth. And I think whichever ones that you can get the deepest exhale with.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Now, what about when you're incorporating humming sound with the exhale?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

It's an additional benefit because the vibration of the vocal cords will stimulate the vagus nerve, which we spoke a lot about in our last episode together.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Essentially, it's the super highway communicating between the body and the mind. And if we can use, you know, the humming, the breathing, it's it's like a little massage, a little like simulator to tell the vagus nerve to send information from the body to the mind to say, you know, safety. So it's extra bonus.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

It's it's so effective. And does it have to be a particular sound? Because as also we were talking about in the last episode, anybody that's taken yoga classes is familiar with um. But does it have to be, you know, where you um, but can it be another sound? Can it be another vowel?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Of course. Like interestingly, in the neuroscience world, the paradigm of it. So my training combines neuroscience, Taoist, and yogic techniques. Yeah. So that's why you would see like some of the breathing exercises are coming from, you know, the neuroscience-based, you know, the vagus nerve, the nervous system. We talk a lot about the science-based evidence, but then a lot of it actually comes from, you know, the qigong, the meridian theory, you know, the Taoist traditions, and then of course the yogic tradition, the pranayama, the breathing exercises. You know, in in the neuroscience paradigm, they would teach the foo sound, V-O-O-O-O-O-O. Yeah. And that seems like the most popular sound, right? And in the yoga world, you mentioned the om, but actually we have so many other sounds. Uh, we have the chakra sound, which is the energetic wheels that spin along the central axis, and each wheel represents different emotional states, um, you know, safety and creativity and ego, all of that. And they each have their own sound. You know, you have the lam, bum, ram, hum, so many. And then in the Chinese meridian tradition, we have our own sound all together, you know, with the sound of the heart meridian, the stomach, the liver. And so when you think about is there one particular sound? It really depends on your um, what paradigm are you speaking from, right? We have, you know, the ancient Taoists and yogis for thousands of years doing their vocal, you know, exercises. And they would say, you know, this will access your different emotional states, but in general, all of them helps you feel more calm. And that's how I link it back to because you are vibrating the vocals that stimulate the vagus nerve. That's when you know neuroscience and ancient wisdom weave together.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Fascinating, really. And we'll be right back. You know, one of the things that keeps us healthy is managing our stress and, you know, knowing how to breathe properly and do the long exhales and be conscious about it is such an easy and effective way to manage stress, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Absolutely. Stress is literally the number one cause of so many of our illnesses. It affects our day-to-day. And if we can just start with noticing first, right? Because again, the mind wants to jump to fixing and then I'll be okay. But it's an ongoing relationship. So, you know, if anything, with this episode, I really want to like takeaway message is build a relationship with your breath. Build a relationship with noticing your breath, right? What is it that I'm doing that heightens my breath? That I'm, you know, I'm breathing shallow, I'm breathing into my shoulders, you know. That is more important than I need to feel calm immediately. Right. Because if you notice just seconds before you're about to change your breathing stage, you're in way more control. You're and and control helps you feel calm because it's a form of certainty, right? Like you're like, you know, I I know I'm about to get you know pulled into anxiety because I used to get anxious all the time. But now I notice when I'm about to get anxious, and that's different. That's when you're like, hey, I'm in a better relationship with my body. And even when you get stuck into your anxiety for a moment, it's coming back. It's coming back to go, hey, I can breathe with a long Excel. And I notice in a few minutes I'll feel better. And that is empowerment. And that's what I teach in my training is that you know, that's trauma-informed, that's getting to know your body, bringing yourself back into safety.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

And usually when I know that I'm going to get into anxiety, you notice that your breathing is shallow, right? And your shoulders are up. And then if you take a second, okay, inhale. And as soon as you exhale, slowly, your shoulders drop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

I mean, um Barb, do this with me, right? Like just cross your hands like this, and then bring your fingers on the top of your shoulders, which is the tip of the peak of your trapezius. Okay. So, yeah, right on the top. You feel a notch there. Everyone has to knots. Yeah, right on the shoulder top. So this is an acupressure point called gallbladder 21. Now, if you're listening, um if you think you're pregnant, you are pregnant, just skip this point because it helps you descend energy, descend sheet. So we don't want that, right? We want to carry the baby to full term. But if you don't have that, then you can press down and then we'll do it with the breathing. So you just do a you know, a soft pressure on the top of your shoulders, and then you take a sharp inhale, exhale out through the mouth. So we'll do it one more time. Double inhale, exhale out. And now your choice is to relax your hands, you can keep the eyes open or closed, and just visualize you know your energy going downward. It can be a water cascading down, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Wow, I really felt that. Did you feel that? It did feel yeah, yeah, I feel yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

It's almost instant, right? It's almost instant. Yeah. So what I just did there was I combined acupressure, which is somatics, with the breath and visualization. And that's what we do in somatic in along with the poses. And that took seconds. Seconds. And so let's say if you don't have a yoga mat, you're you know, you're you're waiting for it to pick up your kids, or you're waiting, you know, just bring your hands over your shoulders, you do a few of these, you can reset the nervous system throughout your day.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Wow. Now, what about box breathing? A lot of times we hear about box breathing. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

So, box breathing is where you in your mind, you're thinking about you're drawing a square, right? So then all the sides are even, and you can choose the duration of your breath. So let's say as I draw my box up, I could choose like a breath of three. I will inhale for three, one, two, three, and then I hold a breath for three. One, two, three. Exhale for three, hold the breath for three. And that is box breathing.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

You're literally just outlining a box.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Exactly. Yeah, so it helps because it also you can do it with a visualization. So the mind is anchored, you're continuously drawing a box, you're also doing the breathing. And one thing I do want to say is that even though box breathing has tons and tons of benefits, the the holding of the breath may not serve everyone. Yeah, because like you say earlier, like, oh, when I find myself anxious, I tend to hold my breath. So the holding of the breath can actually be triggering for some. And if that is the case, you can skip it. You just do your even inhale and even exhale, and that can help steady the mind and steady the body.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Ideally, how long should you spend to do conscious breathing, like just inhale and exhale slowly? I mean, five minutes, two minutes.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

You know, I like to say do it for as long as you feel it fits your A lifestyle, yeah, and B that it serves you. Because let's say if you are consciously breathing just so that you can come back into the safety of your body, you can do it for like less than a minute, right? You're like, no, I'm noticing anxiety. Let me just do the box breathing or let me. Do the long exhale, and that's all you need in that moment, right? In my classes, I always teach do it for about three minutes maximum. The reason is because we want the class to be a journey, right? Because when because when you step into my somatic yin class, it's not just about the poses. We go deep into the layers. We go into noticing, you know, your own breathing pattern, your body sensations. And then there's a theme, right? Maybe it's about you know overcoming our fear, stepping into our power. There's a lot going on in a yin class. And we don't want one particular somatic tool, like breathing, to take over. Yeah, we want every tool and yin posture is a little building block for the entire journey that you're gonna embark on.

unknown 23:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So think of yourself going on a cruise ship. You don't want to just linger at a Mediterranean Sea for like days, right? You'll be like, I'm bored of this already. I'm not getting a conscious contrast, I'm not going on a journey, right? So this, if if someone who is a traditional yoga teacher, they might challenge me because traditionally the yogic breathing is where you can do it for a long time. You can do it for like 45 minutes, an hour, and they would say the more you do, the more benefits you get, right? But we have to look at what is the intention of breathing, right? For a traditional yogi, it can be breathing to connect with the divine. You know, we steady the mind, we you know we we go upward, we go into our head, we go into connecting with the divine. Whereas in the breathing that we're speaking about is more connecting to the body. We want to ground, and that's different, and that's why we need to look at it from a bit different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

You know, I tend to have quite a cortisol spike, and I do find if I just close my eyes and take a breath and exhale slowly, it doesn't go away immediately, but I can feel it going away. And I know it's really common for people to have a cortisol spike in the morning, and some for some people it lasts a long time, but um that is a really effective way to calm your body.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Absolutely. And you're breathing anyway, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah, you're breathing anyway, breathing anyway.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

You can do it consciously, you can do it for a few minutes. If you have more time and you feel you need it, you can do it a bit longer. And uh, the most important thing is being adaptable, right? Because our mind loves solutions. We want to go, you know, if I do it three times a week and then this and then that, but life is is ever changing, right? And if we can change with it, we flow with it, which is really Taoist teaching right now. You know, go with the flow. You know, there's less resistance, we lower our cortisol, we lower our stress, and we really get to where we want to go with very little resistance.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

So good, so good to know.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Well, it's just it's just easy and it's so relaxing, and it's you know, no equipment required. It's like a spa, no? It's like, you know, I just went for a spa without going to the spa. Oh, exactly. Now, what about when you're in shivasana, which for people that don't do yoga, it is the final what we call resting pose in yoga. Do you get more out of the shivasana if you consciously breathe and and do the long exhales or just lie there?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Just lie there. Just lie there, just lie there. So in shivasana, this sounds a little bit scary, but the actual translation of shavasana is corpse pose where we lay there as if we're unalive, right? Now, this sounds really, really scary, but in essence, it's really just the observation of the self. And if we just kind of you know come back into you know the idea of awareness, trauma-informed, resuming safety, your final pose in your yoga is so important because it's integration time. That's why I say the class should be a journey where you've gone through maybe from the starting point, could be you know, feel really stressed out, and then the teacher guides you through an entire journey, you feel more relaxed and calm. And then you lay there just to integrate. You notice if there are any sort of memories popping up, notice your body sensations because you can only do that when the mind is calm, when there's no one speaking, no music, nothing. You just lay there and you can feel and notice so many things.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah, yeah, it's it's really it's really good for some people. That's the best pose of the whole class.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

I love it. I teach my daughter two, and I'm like, okay, we start and we lie down. She does not laugh at all. She laughs one second. Well, that's okay. That's a short.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

One second. And she's two, right? She's two.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

She loves doing her yoga, her her version, her yoga.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Version of yoga. Oh. Okay, Annie, what else should we know about the breath?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Because I I'm more of a uh integrating breathing exercises into my my yoga. Well, those who are interested in doing yin, or you are doing yin, just realize that there is no boundary when it comes to what types of breathing you can do on the mat. Sometimes the breathing can be, you know, like the box breathing and the long XL, and it's meant to downregulate you. It's meant to feel calmer, for you to feel calmer. But let's say you are in the state of depression, maybe you're in functional freeze, you're in a state of collapse. Yeah. What does that mean? That means, you know, if you're in shutdown, you kind of minimize yourself, you're extremely introverted, you don't want to socialize, you feel very cold in your hands and feet, your your physiology is you know going towards the offline state. Yeah, you you're just downright, so downregulated to the point you you feel very invisible, then these long exhales and box breathing may not serve you whatsoever. Because what you really need is that upregulator. You need to do maybe sharp inhale, you need to you know get yourself in the state of more energy, more energized state. And in our language, in in the trauma-informed language, is actually you need to step into your sympathetic state. You know, so often we associate sympathetic as a negative thing, you know, it's fight or flight, we don't want that, but uh sympathetic and fight or flight are not the same thing because sympathetic just means you're in a state of mobilization, you know, you need to be more alert, you need to come online more, you need to be you know more present in your body. So in a yin class, you can you can actually do, let's say, the skull shining breath, which is the force exhalation, and and that brings heat to the body that energizes you. I even teach the lion's breath, which is you know, you take a sticky channel, yeah. Pretend you're a lion. That's so not yin, right? But yin is not just for relaxation, it's for regulation to regulate you. So if you find yourself in a stage of you know, depression, you know, in in like in going inward, you know, don't do the long XL, you know, you know, do the lion's breath, get yourself out there, you know, even stand and just reach your arms out in like the five-point star, you know, get yourself in a bigger state, in an upregulated state. So breathing exercises, you have to look at it as it's not intrinsic. That means it's not on its own beneficial for everyone. That's actually everything in our lives, right? Like, not one thing is always good for everyone. It depends on your state. And you need to adapt it and do what works for you and serve you that moment.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Right. So, because depression and anxiety and uh yeah, as you say, we are in all different kinds of state, but also knowing how you're breathing, what do I need to do right now to get me out of this state? Yeah, I hope anybody that is suffering from depression heard what Annie just said about trying to get you out of that state. It's it's energizing you with like a more energized breath.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

It can be, and that can be too much sometimes. You know, start if your starting point is the breathing, can be quite overwhelming for some nervous systems. So maybe just start with not like tapping, going for walks, micro movement. You know, it can just be you know, putting your hands on her hips and just you know, face the sun. And you know, just it everyone's entry point can be different, it's different, and we need to honor that. And and breath work actually can be quite overwhelming if we're not used to it, right? So we we need to kind of step into it with a lot of precaution and compassion.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

That's good to know.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

And you know, there may be people listening, Annie, that have never heard of this before, have never heard of what is conscious breathing. I mean, I know how to breathe, we are breathing. So, you know, what can I do differently? But the breath is powerful, and and the way we breathe. And I love how you started this, just awareness. How am I breathing? You know, what is my body doing right now? And what is it trying to tell them? Yes, yes. Okay, you know what? What we've given people is a really good overview of breathing. And if you're not a yoga practitioner, you don't necessarily have to be doing yoga, you can do the breath work on its own. But I would say wonderful if you do so. Incorporate yoga. I mean, I know how much it's done for me over the last 30 plus years, but just being aware of how you're breathing and know about chest breathing versus belly breathing and what the long exhales do. So this is helpful. Annie, thank you. So give us again um how people can reach you.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Of course. So you can reach me through my website, which is any alyoga.com. Yeah, al is A U. Or find me on Instagram, any underscore AU underscore yoga. And I do tons of free tips on the benefits of nervous system regulation with somatic in yoga. And yeah, you can reach me through those two platforms. And I also have tons of free YouTube classes.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

I will vote for that.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

I just want to thank you again. Thank you so, so much. It's always a pleasure to come on this podcast. I I absolutely enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Oh, good. You never know. You could be we could be asking you to come on again because there's always something. This episode is written and created by me, Barb Demoray. Produced, edited, and engineered by Mela. Many thanks to our guests today for making it possible. And if you enjoyed it as much as we did recording it, follow us on your favorite podcast player. Also, we are now on YouTube at what's next dot convos with boomers. Thanks for listening.