Episode 2.1 Chasing Kids and Hitting Walls

Season 2

Ben and Matt catch up after taking a much needed break that was extended by injury. 

Transcript

Ben: 0:30

Welcome everybody to the solo debt podcast. This is Ben with my friend Matt, and it's been a hot minute. Missed you guys, and it's really nice to be back and checking in to see how everything's been and why it has been a hot minute. Um Matt, what's been going on?

Matt: 0:52

Oh, you know, well, well, first off, uh, I also want to put in there uh thank you everybody for the support and the encouragement. We did take a break um for several different reasons. A, it was the holidays. Uh B, as you may be aware, uh, we're doing Widow Wednesdays. So we were interviewing guys about their widowhood journey, and um, it got a little heavy, so took a step away. Uh, also the holidays had travel. We all have kids, we had family, so appreciate it. But this is season two. I can't believe it. The sequel. I know, right? Uh, so thanks for all the support and encouragement. It has been a minute, you know, not a whole lot's been happening. You know, did a little Thanksgiving, a little holidays, and came back, made a little snow. Uh, and then uh decided uh while I was out of state uh looking at a college for my oldest to fully rupture or about 95%, I think is actually what the call was. My Achilles. Only 95%. Only 90%. Well, you know, I don't like to whole ass anything. Every now and then you gotta kind of semi-ass it. So I went with a 95% ass of uh rupturing my Achilles tendon. So um that threw a curveball in everything and uh really uh shone a very strong spotlight on how solo I really was. And um I've mentioned this in a few other chats. I don't think the universe, or I don't fully believe the universe blew out my Achilles heel to sit my ass down. But that's the but here I am with uh no one can see because we're on video, but my foot's up on my really stylish uh knee scooter with one of my daughter's uh snow caps on my foot because it's kind of an a casty thing with the toes out because my toesies, yeah. My toesies get coldsies, so that's what I'm doing. And and where did the rupture happen?

Ben: 2:46

Oh, do I you want me to tell the whole story, don't you? I think we I think they they deserve to hear the whole the whole story. Um, maybe uh you can take some censorship if you want to, but I think the gist of it definitely is that's pretty good.

Matt: 3:01

Well, um, you know, I think we should probably start with the ending, which is all of my ego in any sense that I was young and virile, a viral or whatever the word is, right? Viral, viral, whatever it is, Jesus, uh, is laying in shatters on the second floor between room 248 and 246 at the Fairfield Inn and Suites in Bangor, Maine.

Ben: 3:28

Um all the way, like that's the thing. Keep in mind it's completely on the east side of the coast, yeah.

Matt: 3:36

Like in like 20 minutes from uh basically Canada. You're basically South Canada from Fragnerton, is where you are. So we were in Maine, looking at the University of Maine for my daughter, Sh uh for my daughter. Uh it's one of her two top schools she was looking at going to. And uh we just finished the campus steward and we're back at the hotel. And about eight o'clock, some kids start running up and down the hallway, banging on doors. And it was like eight, and they do it once. It's like 8:45 to do it a second time. It's like 9.15. This is a third time, and you could hear the baby across the hall crying, and and my daughter and her mother uh in the room next to me. And so I hear the kids kind of get like silly at the end of the hallway. And I'm like, all right, this is okay, it's late enough. They've had their fun. We've all done silly things in in hotels, so I was trying to give them a chance. So I hear him bang on the on the door and I put my hand on the handle, I swing it open, and I yell, probably my dad's voice. Like, that's enough, it ends now, but maybe it's some colorful language in there, and I turn to chase them, and pop goes the Achilles tendon. Down I down goes. And as I look up down the hallway, there's uh we'll just go two 11-year-old boys laughing hysterically. And I'm sure they've got a great story about this old fat guy with a beard, just ate it in the hallway. Little did they know. Two weeks later, I'm gonna have to have surgery on it to repair it. So, haha, jokes on you, it's not funny. So I hobble around. I knew I I called some friends who were medical nurses and doctors, and they were like, listen, it sure sounds like that's what you did. Doesn't sound like you broke anything. And it like after it happens, it actually isn't really that painful. And the moment it it does not feel pleasant, I can tell you that much. And so I there's no reason to go to the ER, it's late at night at this time. By the time I get ice on it, stuff it's like 9:30 or night, probably 10:30. We got a flight the next day. So I hobble around Portland, Maine with one foot, eat lobster, fly out, go to LaGuardia, LaGuardia to O'Hare. And by the time we get to O'Hare, I look at my daughter. I'm like, I can't believe I have to ask this. You gotta get me a wheelchair because there's no chance I'm making it to the car. Uh so um, a couple of doctor appointments later. Uh, surgery was uh at the time of this recording, it was a week ago. So uh long apparently the therapy, the PT for this is lengthy and uh slightly unpleasant. So yeah. Um, so yeah, so I have some time to have some conversations. If anyone wants me to uh I don't know file taxes for him or something, I got spare time on my hand now. Like there's there's literally so for a while I may have been literally and figuratively running from my emotions, and well, now I can't.

Ben: 6:15

So here we are. Yeah, no, here it is. Boom. It is all like unless you can get really good on the little wheelie scooter.

Matt: 6:21

Yeah, well, I don't know if you know where I live, it snows, and so like even going outside, like someone was like technically I'm not housebound, like I have crutches. I can get, but like I don't know if you ever try to crutch through ice and you know, ice and snow. It's they know I'm gonna go in for a broken knee, so I'm like, you know what, we'll just stay home. So the the other thing I found is it definitely reflected, and we've talked about this and in other episodes and talking about you know, uh putting your hand up and and and asking for help and taking help. And I realized I had to take all of it. I there was no, I there's you know, as silly as this is gonna sound, like I don't know what I was thinking, but like I came home from surgery, and then you know, you're kind of loopy for one day, and the next day I'm like hobbling around on my crutches, and I go into the kitchen and I pour myself a drink and make a sandwich or whatever, and then I'm standing there going, like, how do I get it to the table? Like, this is how dumb I am. Like the little scooter thing. I it was really uncomfortable for a couple of days. Now it's much, much better, and I can use it. But like you're like, Oh, so then I have to ask who I'm very blessed to have, but my mom came down from where she lived and she's been staying with us since. But like, and it's my left foot, so technically I could drive now that I don't need the painkillers and stuff. But it's you just go, like, I have to take all the help. Like, neighbors offered to bring food by, they're amazing. Someone brought, you know, I the day of surgery. I I how do I was at 2 30? Blair's only in daycare for so long, and I don't know how surgery was gonna take. So we just neighbors offered up to take her, and she was lovely and she was fine, but the anxiety's there, and you just have to rely on people that you are very lucky to have, and that you there's no and it's you there was no other option. It's not like because of COVID and stuff, it's not like Blair could come to the hospital, and then like my mom's the only ride, and you know, who do you really want there? She's my only emergency contact. That's a whole nother PTSD. You got to put your mom down, not your spouse, right? And like, you know, do you really want your neighbor who you know is nice but isn't probably someone you want around when you're having medical procedure done? Like, like I'm like, all right, so my mom's gotta be my ride, but then who does get who gets Blair?

Ben: 8:27

So was there did you have a couple like massive take homes that maybe surprised you throughout this whole process? Like you knew that any sort of medical issue was gonna be harder as a solo parent, but was there something, a couple somethings that really kind of rang true or surprised you with this whole process being kind of laid up hospital, injured, and having the whole responsibility?

Matt: 8:56

Yeah, I think I think two well, two things. Well, a couple, I probably should have put a number because I would probably ramble. So one for sure was um I I haven't had to do it often, but again, you have to fill out enough forms for the process. Having to write down someone that's not your spouse as an emergency contact was was a big kind of shock that I wasn't prepared for. The other one is I've been very lucky or fortunate in my life. I have not had to have anything else done. And going back into a hospital because the last time I went, my daughter had to have a small procedure, but now all of a sudden, and then my wife's all her cancer journey being in and out of hospitals, but now it's being done to me. And all of a sudden you realize I really can't have bad things happen to me. Like I really, really can't, but physically or mentally. It's like all of a sudden anything risky almost comes off the table. Yeah. Like I used to think I'd want to go parasailing, and now I'm like, maybe not so much, maybe not till she's much, much older.

Ben: 9:59

Yeah, the risk factor like really treats.

Matt: 10:01

In the back, in the back, it's all of a sudden it jumped to the front of my mind. I'm like, man, maybe maybe like what if the parallel sailing thing gets wrapped around my leg and I lose my foot? Like, that's not really ideal. Like, I'm you know, hear all these weird stories about stuff. But like, so all of a sudden the fragility of of my beingness is in it's very apparent staring.

Ben: 10:19

Or even the logistics, uh, I don't know if did we talk about this one where I actually had to go to the ER because I had a glass break on my foot when I was putting the dishes away after the kids were in bed. Okay. And I had to make the decision of is this bad enough to go to the ER, wake the kids up and drag them to the hospital, or do I glue it and cross my fingers and like I can't. There might be glass in my foot. So I actually had to call once again. Kathleen, lucky enough to have her right around the corner. And I had to wake her up, like, hey, I didn't have to go to the ER. Yeah. I would prefer not to wake all three kids up, put them in pajamas, walk around with my foot's bleeding all over the place, and then have them have to deal with the ER while I do this. Yep. Can you please come over and watch the kids? Yeah.

Matt: 11:09

And it's just those little I think that, you know, now that you bring that up, I think because my mom lives far enough away, I think I'll probably have to put together a phone tree of like, if I were to get glass my foot, who am I calling? Yeah. Within proximity of my house. You know, call one person, call two person. Like, I need you to come over right now and be with Blair and I gotta go.

Ben: 11:33

Like, whatever, or someone's gotta take me, whatever it is because or meet me at the hospital and take her home or something.

Matt: 11:38

Because that's another really good and I another widow actually um had a was having basically what they thought were chest pains. They were chest pains, but they the same situation in the evening, and they're like, What do I do with my two kids? Like, I can't, like this, I might be in the hospital overnight. Like, how and so luckily enough they had someone they could call, but it was the same, it was a very identical conversation of like, oh crap, the person that would be able to like they would they were able to drive themselves to the hospital, everything wind up being fine, happy ending. But like they they were like the person that would just stay with their like, listen, I think something's going on. I need to go to the hospital, I don't think I need to call on an ambulance, but let me just get right, yeah. The person that I should go sideways, right? Yeah, the person that would be right next to you watching Netflix would just stay home with the kids, and oh, that's not a thing. So I think that was one of the big ones is was also like, I'm like, I just and oh, if any of my neighbors wind up listening to this, I want to make this very clear. They are not strangers to me. We just haven't not we have not known each other very long, and so there is a lot of trust implied really quick. And all of them, I am very lucky, have a very amazing neighbors, and they're all been very helpful. I mean, one neighbor unwrapped my foot because it was like the swelling was getting where my nose hurt, and I didn't know what I was supposed to do, and I didn't know what it was like down there, and I'm like, I'm not unwrapping this thing. What if my calf muscle falls out? I'm stupid. And so, like, they're both nurses, they're able to come help. Like, everyone's been blowing my driveway and shoveling snow without even being asked. And so, like, it's not about it's not about like not trusting them. There's just not a rapport where you go like, and everyone's willing, of course, because of our situations. Like, if you offer up your child because you're in a state of emergency, I can't think of a single person. I'm literally going down the block that wouldn't say yes to if I had to drive by and like pitched Blair out the car and be like, I gotta go, they would be fine with it. They'd make it work. So, um, but I think that's the other part is like we if you're not already entrenched in your community and have those sort of people, you may need to put an asterisk and just make sure that try it. Well, and then make sure that they know that you that they've become one of the people that are on the speed dial in case of an emergency or something. And then I think the other thing that um really hit with me, and I think maybe we'll do this in a f in a follow-up one was maybe just touching on PTSD in general, because it's pretty much I don't want to over exaggerate or compare to anybody else's, but I had not been in a hospital for myself in a very long time. Blair had a small procedure, but again, that was happening to her, and my wife's cancer was happening to her, but I was parallel to her. But I hadn't been in a hospital for any length of time since my wife's cancer stuff and since Marcy's cancer stuff, and I did not realize what an impact. I mean, it's a different hospital, it's not the one she was in, but everything from the beeps and the noises, I mean, it hit really hard, even the smells, hospitals all have that smell. They have a very distinct smell, right? With the cleaning and stuff, and so it was just and I warned everybody. I even the anesthesiologist apparently gave me extra happy medicine because I was I was already getting high, yeah. Yeah, I was like, just pretend I'm like 400 pounds, just double it up, and let's just and so and then the other part, and I think this will be a good, I'll bring it up again because I know why this was happening. But when I came out on the anesthesia, I was full on sobbing. I mean, I was little baby crying. Uh, and the the wake-up nurse, I I don't know what I said to her, but I'm sure I explained my situation a little because it was just it was again, it was just this thing that I did. I didn't do anything foolish, but it didn't have to happen, right? Like I didn't have to go. I mean, yeah, I know, but it like it didn't have I know, but it didn't have to happen. This wasn't a car accident.

Ben: 15:20

This was well, you were doing your civic responsible duty for the baby crawling across the hole. I'm going to stop these children from the shenanigans down the hallway. You shall stop and go to sleep.

Matt: 15:33

So then as I'm lying there in my hotel room with the you know the vending machine ice on my foot or the back of my foot or whatever, going like, okay, had I caught them, what was I gonna do? Like, what was I gonna across my knees?

Ben: 15:47

Sternly look at them and say, Right, get to your room, where are your parents?

Matt: 15:50

Listen here, young man. Um, like, and so and then I had this fantasy of the next morning going, like, well, if it doesn't hurt that bad, I'll go down to the breakfast and find these kids. And then what? Then I'm gonna get in a fisticuff with the dad in the parking lot and have a broken nose and a hurt foot. Like, this is none of this worked out well. So I just laid there and realized maybe sometimes, you know, let kids run down the hallway.

Ben: 16:14

But uh or just me reach out and go, hey, yeah, stop, it's bedtime. Yeah, or just people turn to sleep, yeah, instead of maybe yeah, and then chasing.

Matt: 16:23

It was the turning and running that really did me in. Um, so well, I made a huge apparent. What was it? What if one what if one of the doctors? Oh, this was the other comedy comedic part. So every single doctor when they saw me initially, the question was what thing, what weekend warrior thing were you doing? Do I look like I wake up and do the rag knock for fun on a Saturday?

Ben: 16:52

Appreciate the game. You look like you are chasing the glory days and you're only active on Saturdays. Right.

Matt: 16:57

Like, I'm like, do I look like I even do that? Like, look at me. I run from the couch to the refrigerator at best. Like, come on. Uh but I would at least, you know, I will say that made my ego feel good. And then I had to tell them I was like, and finally, I think I just told someone, like, I just turned to run.

Ben: 17:14

Like, I didn't even go into the story. Like, I yeah, I planned it in turn and it popped. It was time.

Matt: 17:19

It popped. So, yeah. So we had to take a little break, um, but we're healing, and um, I think what'll be interesting is some of the conversations we have with some of the things I'm gonna be forced to process that I have been quite literally physically avoiding. And um, you know, I think it'll be good topics of conversation. I think some of the stuff you've already processed pretty well physically, whether it's pictures or memory books or memory boxes, and those things I've just been choosing not to do because I think, and quite honestly, if I'm being quite very honest, it's gonna hurt, and I don't want to hurt. And uh ironically enough, this happened, and I'll be laid up. And this was another really bizarre thing, and thanks, Facebook, good and bad. I like I didn't forget because I hadn't it hadn't happened yet, but my what would have been my what year are we in? Jesus? No, no, we're in uh 2022, right? Yeah, no, you're right, we're in 2022. Yeah, so uh this would have been 17. This would have been our fifth anniversary, only five. And February 27th was our anniversary. Oh wow, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so like Facebook's like, you know, po you know, post stuff, can't wait to go to the wedding, right? Yeah, and I'm like, do I have that right? Was it 2008? No, no, this would have been six. Sorry, we were sixteen. Sorry, we were sixteen. I apologize, sixteen, it had my ear wrong for a second. Sorry. Um which is which is weird because it's kind of this melancholy phase of of milestones for me, but like I realized like I don't even have our actually, I'm pretty sure I don't. No, I don't. I don't even have our wedding album out. And Blair has done some stuff recently where I'm like, I don't have it out because it hurts me.

Ben: 19:09

I should probably I should probably have it accessory. I don't I don't know very many people that just have it out.

Matt: 19:16

Yeah, when I say have it out though, like I'd I would have to go into a box to go get it, it's not even like on a shelf so that I could show Blair. Yeah. Well, the problem is this is the problem. A lot of the stuff that is Marcy memory is not easily accessible. It's it's down in a box somewhere, and I need it, it should be easily accessible. Not all of it, like you know, I'm not gonna get out Marcy's high school yearbook necessarily, but so I think some of this stuff because it's all in one very big box, I just need to pro there's some processing that needs to happen. Both both of them.

Ben: 19:43

Yeah, you can wheel down there and make it happen now.

Matt: 19:45

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess have somebody shove me down the stairs.

Ben: 19:49

Yeah, preempt the the hurt with the rolling down. Tuck that all that'll be all right.

Matt: 19:54

So I think it I think that's the other thing. It'll be it'll be interesting to see the things that get taken care of. Because you can't physically, and I think as men, sometimes we probably use uh physical activity as a way to both express and maybe avoid some expressions that we don't want to do. Maybe some people hit climbing walls. I don't know.

Ben: 20:14

Yeah, that's a funny story. That's such a great story. Hypothetically, some people may take a swing at a time.

Matt: 20:21

Speaking of things that reasons we've been uh delayed a while. Well, and you know, the the thing is though, is too is I think uh that it's you know because there's this balance, and I think you you maybe you want to you know take take a bit of a time in a minute, but like I think the other the other thing about the balance is like you we can go overboard with with living. I don't want to say busy for busy sake, because when you look at it, it's what we should be doing, right? But then all of a sudden the cuppeth is dryeth, and you realize, oh, what do I do now? Yeah, because I'm and and maybe we've even obligated further, right? You get halfway into we'll go a six-week scheduling, and you're three weeks in and you go, uh oh, like I am not I am I am not capable of being the person that I need to be for myself, for my littles, for the other people I love and adore in my life. Oh, I might need to take some time, but how do I now unschedule the scheduling?

Ben: 21:25

Yeah. Yeah, I uh that's uh that's a pretty fantastic segue, actually. Um, so and I was just randomly picking the time periods. Yeah, three to six weeks, by the way. While Matt was traveling the uh the continental US looking at universities and and popping tendons, I decided it was time to catch my kids up on winter Colorado experiences. Um, because that it I it it's it's I don't want to say it's a rite of passage, but if you live in Colorado and you have kids, you take them up and you ski or board with them. It's part of the deal. It's part of living in Colorado for sure. Right. And um because of timing with everything, I Nadia had had lessons three years ago.

Matt: 22:16

Oh, yeah, and pretty much COVID made everything weird, and then right.

Ben: 22:19

So then the the the winter season after that, Gwen passed, so we did nothing that season. Then the season after that um was COVID, and it was just either not happening or astronomical or just bonkers, or a logistic nightmare.

Matt: 22:36

I can imagine.

Ben: 22:37

Yeah, it was and so um this year I was like, we are gonna do the ski thing, and my kids are gonna get lessons so they can ski with their friends, it's gonna be awesome, and we're gonna have fun. And um, I had weekends booked in the mountains for adventures with like Airbnbs, and I had lessons, but because it's also the first kind of season back without all the COVID shenanigans, the second a lesson popped up, it was gone. And I like once again, like I can't complain. I live in Colorado and I'm getting my kids ski lessons, but I so my youngest, so I was trying to get them all lessons on the same day, but it became impossible because within a half a day, all their lessons were gone. So I ended up having my youngest start a lesson on Sunday at 7:45 in one mountain. My older two would have lessons starting at 8:30 on another mountain a half an hour away. My youngest first lesson ended at 11:30, and then my older two kids ended at 2. So um we would typically go up on a Saturday, like so. They would go to school all week, all the activities. Um, we had a slew of random viruses ripped through the house, potentially COVID at one point. No one tested positive, but we had about two and a half weeks of constant someone in the house sick. And it was just this that just really drug. And then as we're kind of pseudo-getting better, the weekends in January picked up, and then I realized um all the things of like getting prepped and driving and traffic and all the things, and then like my Sundays became a shuttle service without and so like I'm sitting there looking at the mountains, like which used to be an outlet for me occasionally to like experience and become one with nature and blow off steam. I can't do it because I'm busy showing my kids around who are potentially complaining about certain things, upset getting dressed, also super tight quarters because um it's expensive to rent a place in the mountains over the weekend. So like I had to go as cheap as I possibly could. So like we're in studios or like one bedrooms with a pull-out sofa, and so sleep is scarce, room is scarce, tensions are high, stress is high, and um and so I and I didn't realize because it was just this kind of this slow, gradual, constant stress without any sort of normal release or outlet. And I started getting grumpier and shorter and grumpier and shorter, and and and finally, um, my girlfriend pointed out she's like, I'm not a fan of this particular individual. Um, and because I I hadn't seen it coming because I was just so wrapped in with the constant, yeah.

Matt: 25:56

Well, and this is interesting because this is one of the things that I and I want you to keep going, but like yeah, I tell people this all the time. Like, so um Blair does certain activities, she's in pre-K, and then I pick her up, and then we go to the activity, and then we'll do kind of like a long lunch because that's kind of how the schedule works, and then we come home, and then it's like I'll I still want to play with her because she's fun and I love it. And so next thing I know, it's seven o'clock at night. I'm putting her down to bed, and nothing has happened for me or the house. So keep going, and it's just like, and then eventually over time, you go, like for me, real quick, it was like my kitchen looks like a frat house. What happened?

Ben: 26:33

Yeah. So yeah, like I'm not even talking about like the week. No, I know, right? So exactly, yeah. So like the the times where I would normally try to catch up in the evenings or the weekends were gone, so everything's like backpiling into the week. Um, work is beginning because it's the new year, so like all the sales things are happening, promote like kick forecasting and all the things are all happening, and so work is amped, schedules are amped, normal times where I would have uh the ability to kind of catch up are now gone. So I'm trying to throw things into the evening, and um sleep is becoming less and less. So, like like the stress was constant. And I was talking to my therapist about the fact that when you become under this kind of this this constant level of stress, you in essence have this like tunnel vision of things shut down to become under like this survival mode, and you don't like it's almost like the id and whatever, like you don't become your normal self, you're more like this like more animalistic, reactive, protective thing. And that kind of gets me eventually to the climax of the story of punching the climbing wall, and um, and so all this is going on, and it's to the it's going to be like we're gonna have fun this weekend, you're gonna go. You became that dead. That's all uh like it was I became so many wrong things um over the month of January, and um and one of the outlets I have is climbing, and it's a it's a very therapeutic thing for me on multiple levels.

Matt: 28:14

And we've you've talked about this before where it has something to do with like you also you're you're breaking down your body to parts, right?

Ben: 28:19

And the brain, yeah, the bilateral brain movement of things, yeah. And so like it's it's yeah, it's really it's it's it's pretty phenomenal for me. And we're on top of that, we're doing a competition. So like we're normally I would the moments I would have to go in the gym to climb for fun, we're now going in for this team climbing thing. So like there's this competition and this performance expectation versus release, and and it it got to the point where there was this one route I should have done, I couldn't do, and instead of um just coming back down trying in, I slipped and fell, and within a half a second, I punched the wall with enough force to break skin and potentially break a bone. Um like I'm bleeding all over myself, I have massive swelling, and I'm not a quote unquote, like that's not my jam. I'm not a violent person. I don't like I don't go around hitting walls, I don't go around throwing things, uh, I don't go around breaking things in half. And I'm sitting there looking at myself and I just like what happened? Because like I did, I didn't even realize when it occurred that it was because it was it was purely reactionary. Like it was just slip, boom, pow, bleeding. I'm like, oh my god, what was that? And so um, and luckily, and like I shouldn't say luckily, but like that was a result of my body reacting to the tremendous amount of constant stress. Um, and so that was a very forceful kind of brain gut check of you have maxed out. Here is obviously a limit. You like you cannot keep doing this. And like when you said, like when the when you have activities for the kids or things, that next time was like, you know what? We're gonna do this instead. We're not gonna go up there, we're not gonna have the ski lesson, we're gonna try to do this instead. Like, and we did like a weekend, like, and and luckily the timing worked out so well. Where um Kathleen was able to do an overnight for the first time in about like eight weeks or nine weeks, and then we had a an adult-only weekend trip to the mountains where I could get some snowboarding in and hang out with adults, like so that the timing of these additional activities could not have been better. Like, I was looking forward to those activities anyway, but then you throw in the surprise of how the previous month and a half had sucked everything out. It was just it made it so clear to me how important it is to get that self-care in whatever, because obviously I became I was not like I was not the parent I needed to be. I was not the the the boyfriend I needed to be, I was not the friend I needed to be, like every with every in other personal interaction, it was not right, right? Like it's just and so um and then you you unplug, you get that release, you get that contact, you get that self-time, and you're like, oh, there's that person I know. Welcome back, hi. Um, and so it it really like and we've even talked about how important it is before, but like I don't think I'd I don't think I'd gone through a space at least the last year, year and a half, maybe even two years.

Matt: 32:18

It's been some funky years for sure.

Ben: 32:19

I mean, there's been other stressors and stuff, but like it like to have that kind of like really constant massive stress changed my direct behavior.

Matt: 32:30

For me, I have a sneaky suspicion, had there not been locked down, I think I would have had something crack in 2020 because I think I would have booked myself out so much that something like that would have happened because I would have just gotten busy with and the thing is on paper, they all look good, right? You know, like this is all a good thing. We're taking trips, I'm being with the kids, I'm doing like none of them are like, you know, I'm just gonna pick something. I don't know, you go into a bunch of rock concerts without the kids. I don't know, that doesn't sound that bad either. But anyway, they're all like good reasons to be doing stuff, nothing wrong. Right, but they're avoidance, right? You're not avoiding it, you're actually doing stuff. And what's interesting is I know, and I know we've mentioned it plenty of times before, it's like that self-care, whether it's you know, a combination of therapy or your own checkout or you know, your own activities that fill you back up, whether it's rebuilding the car engine or spending time with people that you like and admire and you have fun with them, or if it's a sport, or if it's whatever, I think a it's very important. And I and I and I I think the problem becomes is when you look on, if you looked at let's just go the the the stretch of we'll just go use the month of January. If you just look at the month of January and you go, here's the things that need to happen, and they're all good and positive, right? Like our kids got our activities, our kids are um you're they're doing the things, someone comes in town to visit, that's a good thing. All these good things are good on paper, but then all of a sudden you still have to do, we'll just call it Monday through Friday living, right? You got to get the kids the things you still have to jump, and all of a sudden you realize, oh gosh, there's been no downtime for me. And I think as a solo parent, downtime is I'll even bump it from 2x to 4x more important because you were talking about ketchup. Like we were in Florida, I got home, and like the amount of things I had to do after getting home, it took me, I would probably say three, four days. I was like, no one had been grocery shopping. I gotta do that. Like get the food back in the house, start making meals again. Oh gosh, I gotta get all the bags prepped for her stuff. I gotta, and you go, like, oh whoa. Like, there's there's no like double, you can't double down on it. You have to like just kind of do it as it comes up. And so I, you know, it's it's it's an interesting, it's an interesting conundrum to get into because the problem becomes is you also, and we were just talking about this on a on a call prior to this recording, which was, and you touched on it, it's like, how do you look at whatever the ski lessons and go like, well, crud, sorry, kiddo, you don't get a lesson because the only way I can get these two kids to their lessons if you don't get one. Like when those conflicts happen, then what do you do? And then imagine you're stressed and you're gonna feel like crap. And then yeah, you know, how do you and then and then do you take the short route of happiness? You're like, you know what, everyone, we're having cupcakes for dinner because dad screwed everything up and I can't make it, I can't make anybody happy. Now you got kids all high on frosting at 9 30 at night.

Ben: 35:29

Can I can I honestly say that there was one morning I well, I should say it started with an evening because my kids have been going through a rotation of waking me up in the middle of the night when I asked like you're I get hangry and I don't do well and I don't do well with local sleep. Yep. And they've been it'd have been really I I I legitimately bribed my children with ice cream for breakfast. I have a kid, if they could give daddy a night without disturbed sleep. Like I went and like, hey guys, here's a novel idea. There's been there's been lots of craziness going on for waking up in the middle of the night for no reasons or things that you could have easily done yourself. Sure. If we can make it from bedtime until time to get up for school, we'll start off the morning with a little bowl of ice cream and then have breakfast. And um it worked. Hey, and uh they were super pumped about it. They got some ice cream and daddy got some sleep. Not one of my like, it's definitely not in the um uh top 10 parenting playbooks.

Matt: 36:40

Well, no, I don't know.

Ben: 36:42

The results I don't think you're gonna find that in in the black and white paper anywhere, like in a pinch, offer sprinkles with your ice cream for breakfast. Um, but you know what? Desperate times.

Matt: 36:55

Hey, um well, and but see the thing is is like again, it's a reflection of there's no one to tag to make that happen. So you've got to find an alternative route. If that's ice cream, at least you're offering ice cream in the morning and not 11 at night. Like, I it's funny, like we have we I have a pretty I don't want to say rule, but like I'm like as adults we shouldn't be eating ice cream at nine o'clock at night. Like it's just not good for your body in general. So I'm like, what is the when again the other day that could be anywhere from last could be yesterday or anything past two days ago and 20 years because I just can't nail it down. The other day, Blair someone someone asks us, like, is it okay she has a cookie at 10 a.m.? Yeah, can she have ice cream at noon? Sure, yeah. Can she can can she have a box of candy at 2 p.m.? Absolutely. Can she have ice cream at 9 30? Absolutely because she has the whole day to burn it off. If she wants ice cream for freaking breakfast, I'm like, all right. I mean, she goes to daycare, that's their problem.

Ben: 37:47

So they thought she goes to school in daycare. I'm like, I'm gonna throw a little dash of eggs after just to kind of like counter that immediate murderbust, but it's kind of their problem. Like, I mean, it's really sorry, you gotta go.

Matt: 37:59

Why is she running in circles? I don't know. I don't know, she's excited to come to school today. So excited that she had for breakfast. I'm exaggerating, but like I so but you know what though, if that's if that's what you gotta do, sometimes like I what did I do with Blair one night? Because we're now with the foot thing, it's probably gonna take a little bit longer again, but we co-sleep for now, and I think I got kicked or something, and she was being extra flippy floppy, and so I put like two pillows in the middle of the bed, and she was like, But how do I get over to you? Climb over the pillow, you've kicked me like the last four nights.

Ben: 38:32

Like that's the point. You don't get over to daddy. There's a wall here.

Matt: 38:36

There's no one to go into other co-sleep with her, right? And so, um, yeah, you gotta, I don't know though, man. That's not the worst thing you could have done.

Ben: 38:44

I mean, no, it wasn't the worst, but it wasn't definitely uh not your proudest. No, it was it was it was definitely a parane. Like, as it was like coming out of my mouth, like because they'd asked for it was like a night of gymnastics, and they'd asked for ice cream, like, no, we're same type of thing, like it's late, we're gonna go home, it's gonna have dinner late, and we you guys had like we need to go to bed, dad needs to go to bed, we're not gonna have ice cream, we're not gonna get amped. And so they were up, they're like, Okay. And it's not like I give them ice cream every gymnastic anyway. It's like a super special treat for them, and it was it was just this moment of complete collapse, and it was just, you know what? How about this?

Matt: 39:29

So we were doing really, really good with no screen time, basically after about I'd say five o'clock. By the time I fire up dinner, we just kind of done with screen time. We were doing really good, and then um was it November ish? I feel like I got sick or something happened, and I just was like, I oh yeah, you did again, yeah. And I just oh no, it was over cra it was right before Christmas, I think. And I just didn't have any to fight. And now we're back to like either tablet or teas on which is eating dinner, and I was like, with the foot and everything I Mike. So what I want people to hear is you when you pick a battle, make sure you have the emotional fortitude because the say do ratio as a single parent and a solo parent is really difficult. So if you're gonna do it, you better be in a place where you can do it. It's kind of like the potty training thing. It was like, well, we can't be taking trips and me expecting her to do body training. So let's make sure we're home for a stretch of time. So if you've got to throw a little ice cream at the problem for right now, that you know what? It is what it is. I'd say what that night of sleep was amazing. You're like, little did they know I would have given them an entire pint of ice cream. Like they you want some pen and Jerry's straight from the container? Absolutely. Next time just throw in a blender a little bit of protein, a little bit of oat milk, and call it a freaking smoothie. It's like, yeah, breakfast smoothie.

Ben: 40:42

It's healthy, it's fine, it's practically good for you.

Matt: 40:45

Well, and I I think I think uh so I want to ask you this question. Like, do you feel and and I wish this is where I wish it was like a call-in show where people could also give their you know voice their opinions, or leave a comment or like reach out to us through multiple ways of social media. Um I get very concerned that by the time I'm done doing my dad duties, there are there is no time left for me to do anything else. Like I go, like, okay, so we wake up, we go to school, I get her to school, she's there for well, pre-K, she's there for a couple hours. If I could, I'd go to the gym, then I come home, then I pick her up, then I go straight to her activity. By the time we get home, it's like 2:33 o'clock. So then we do a little unwinding, then I make dinner, then I put her in a bath, then she do reads her books, she goes to sleep. She's usually out by about eight o'clock, luckily for me. Then from eight to midnight, I usually put around the house, try to do stuff, then I go to sleep and repeat. Yep. I don't see a break in there for the next 18 years. I get a little worried.

Ben: 41:51

And you know, the beauty is like once she starts getting into activities, then you've got activities to drive her to in the which is what what we're starting.

Matt: 42:00

Like, she's in a ballet gymnastics class, she's in swim class, she wants to stay karate, and I'm just going like, I'm for all these things, but I and I only have the one, so I'm not trying to, but I just like, do you ever like where how do you how do you how do you either pick a how do you pick or choose, or B, how do you find like is it literally just on it? So the I think the problem is with me, the weekends for me are the times that I'm a hundred percent with her because I I won't I can outsource during the week because of my situation of of my flexibility of working. And so um I just I so I wonder if that's my problem because a lot of people are like, let's do stuff on the week, and I'm like, no, no, no, that's my time with her because I'm so flexible on the week. So is it like I'm just trying to like, how do you find that time of like you know, going, you know, spending time with your girlfriend, or you know, setting that time aside, and then is it quite literally drawing into the the well of kid coverage, as I like to call it? Do you just I mean, is that just you set a priority around that? You're like this and I'm just gonna go up and go snow skiing on this Saturday, and the kid coverage is gonna happen. Hey there, listeners and my tribe of allies want to take just a moment to remind you how you can find the podcast. We are on all platforms. We're on Apple Podcasts, we're on Spotify, we're on Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Audible, and all the others. If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, please give us a feedback and give a review. It helps the podcast be found. If you're looking to find more solo dad content, we are on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter at SoloDad Podcast. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the show, or if you just want to email us with thoughts or topics you'd like to hear us talk about, good old-fashioned email for us is solo dadpodcast at gmail.com. Thank you again for your support and listening, and hope you find it helpful back to the conversation.

Ben: 44:23

Um because it if I just allowed life to flow.

Matt: 44:30

Yep, which is I think what I'm currently doing. This is why I'm asking that question.

Ben: 44:34

Yeah, I would say like it would be very easily all consuming. Um, so you have to, and I've actually found myself with this past month with it being so chaotic, letting some other things accidentally slip that would have normally been potentially like force, like actively, enjoyably booking, doing other things. It's been like a kind of last minute, oh yeah, so we need to do that, or I want to do this, or like you get to that point you're like, I'm just so shattered, I can't, or and so on some of those other things, um it there's some factors at play in whether it's age of kids, activities that kids are involved in. Like, and so like for me, when I pick kid activities, I do everything I can to pick something that I think all of them will enjoy at this point. And I try my I if I can't get it scheduled at the same time, I don't do it. And so like they all have swimming lessons at the exact same time on Saturday mornings. They do gymnastics within like I couldn't get them all in the same hour, but it's like back-to-back hours. But so we do a fun dinner, yeah. So we do like so, like while one's in gymnastics, I do a fun dinner with the other two. When the other two are in gymnastics, I do a fun dinner with the other one. So it's like alone time.

Matt: 46:04

Maybe you get someone on one time, that's actually pretty good.

Ben: 46:06

So we spin it that way and have a good time that way. And then on Thursdays, we do soccer, and all three of them are in their like same session. So, but with that, when I was looking at activities, because I I would really like to get some music in the mix and some other things. You you can't unfortunately, especially if you've got multiples, allow every activity as an option. You have to filter.

Matt: 46:39

Yep, that's true.

Ben: 46:40

You have to say, well, try this. If it doesn't work or click, we're gonna bounce. We're gonna try something else. We're not gonna just do something for the sake of doing it. And if we're gonna try something and you sign up, we're gonna finish it. If it doesn't work, great. I'm not gonna force you into doing something you do or don't want to do it. Like, if you want to do it, I'm all for it. If you don't want to do it, we're going to drop it as soon as we can.

Matt: 47:05

Um, you know, especially when they're in that, I call it the 12 and under dabbling stage, because you want to expose them to a little bit of everything. But if all of a sudden your kid takes to water like a fish, you're like, I guess we're doing swim because this kid's amazing. Like you want to encourage where they're being successful, but at the same time, you don't want to stop. Uh, one of the other dads in the solo dad Facebook group, he's got a kid that's like all about soccer, and his other, I think that's the son, and the daughter is kind of musically inclined. And because of his widowhoodness, the daughter recognized him was like, Hey, I want to take piano lessons, but since it's piano lessons, can I we can do it? And this was, I think he said the daughter said this when my brother's not not doesn't have soccer, like to alternate, right? So, like if he's got soccer practice money Wednesday, Friday, is she 20 some years old or something? She's like, she's like eight. I think is what he said. I was like, cool. He also was mentioning how she cleaned the house, and I was like, um, can uh she I don't know, come visit? Like, can she can she start some sort of like how it's like so? I think that maybe, and but he did say part of this was I think a segue away from the conversation having with the kids of like how they're a team, and right, there's just one of him, and that there might need to be some flexibility.

Ben: 48:15

I know your kids are younger, but and I would say like I talked to someone else too who's kind of in your scenario, right? Um she's one of three daughters whose mom became a widow, right, and never remarried. Sing solo mom all the way through. And she got through and she's like, and we were we were actually talking one day, and she's like, and she's like, I know, I realize now why I was not able to do some of these activities. And she's like, it makes sense to me now. I realize it and I see how the struggle was there. Like, she's like, it was frustrating sometimes that I wasn't able to do some of the activities that my friends could do or whatever, but at the same point I look back and and realize that it wasn't either feasible or trying to do the best scenario possible. And and so I I would I I would like to say that obviously as parents, we want to give our children every exposure possible, every experience possible. Um, but you also have to sometimes look at the fact that you are just one person. Um, and sometimes unfortunately, logistics can't work, and that's okay. Um, and to allow the flexibility of doing an activity that the kids enjoy, and or letting and be in front of like, hey, here's why we can't. Like, I would love to be able to do this for you and this for you and this for you, but like here's the scenario, and here's why. Um, if anything changes, then yes, I would love like we'll gladly do this. But at this point, here's where we are. And and I and I believe that much like that gentleman that has the eight-year-old that is apparently 20-something, and um kids when you're upfront and honest with them and you tell them things like, hey, I would love to be able to do well, let's say like for the daughter, like dance and art, and if she's into gymnastics and andor piano, and she wants to do piano and painting or something, like, look, we can we can only do one at this point because we have X, Y, and Z. I also have to do A, B, and C to make X, Y, and Z happen. And because of that, that limits our ability to do this. Um, and so we have to pick one or pick two, uh, which is okay because there's some people that don't get to pick any, right? Very good. And so I think there has to be a kind of like a parental gut check of I would love to be able to do everything for my children, right? And like every parent would. But unfortunately, perhaps people are hindered, like in our situation, there's one of us. In other situations, there's monetary. In other situations, there's one and monetary, or there's situations where scheduling or co-parenting. I mean, like, there's so many things that factor into mobility.

Matt: 51:52

Can you imagine it if you're in a co-parenting situation with just the logistics alone? Because it's like you either have to choose between spending time with one of the parents or going to a soccer practice in the wrong. Right.

Ben: 52:01

And then, like, how do you share the time? Or like they have them on Tuesdays this week, and that's when they have you know the karate, right? And then and like the next week, and like it's just it's a good point. It's not there's so many things that play in. Um, and you can't you can't let that grind on you. Like, and you just you have to be able to go once again, like on so many things, like sometimes you do takeout for a week straight because you can't handle cooking because you're exhausted. And like I will say, um, there was definitely a week in that gauntlet where there was like chicken nuggets in the air fryer, and we did like uh I I did find a pretty amazing frozen like fish wild side thing in the like you you cut corners here and there, you cut corners, but like you know what? The same point, like everyone's getting fed, everyone has a house, everyone has a bed to sleep in, they're going to school, like, and it's so you can't focus on the things that you're unable to give their kids, but you need to be able to focus on the wins, and it's hard, right?

Matt: 53:15

Like, you like you know what and I'm glad you brought up the point because it's not this isn't just a like a solo dad issue, right? It's it's all like even like you know, I have the one I have the two, but they're so far separated that the the needs and and where they are in their trajectory of life is different. But what I and I and it is a good point that you know there are a lot of different factors that come into having to limit. And I think that what what I was trying to figure out was you know, do when for me, I guess, in my situation, and I think the question is when does the me voice kick in going like you just you're if you sign up for this stuff, right? Whatever it is, one class or three different ones, when does when does the the quote unquote you know me time come in? Like when do you as a parent in general, regardless of the the situation, like how do you make sure that you schedule that time for yourself and that you're being honest that it's also because this is what I worry about sometimes for it's like you know, oh uh we'll just go with golf. I'm gonna do this golf thing because that's one of the things I do. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh wait, but that's an every Saturday commitment, and is that okay? Right? Like in my situation in our situation being sold, it's like, oh crap, can every Saturday I not be available from noon to two to play in a golf league or something again, making all that up. But um and then you go, oh, it's too much you back down, and then all of a sudden you realize you you're not doing any of the things that you to fill you back up. So like just in single in parenting in general, that you know, that's in in a normal whatever a normal is in a nuclear family with two adults raising children, whatever they are, whether they're you know uh straight, gay, yeah, there's a given take.

Ben: 55:02

It doesn't matter, whatever the combination is.

Matt: 55:04

You have two, you have you have a tag team situation, then you have co-parent, which I've done that before, and then you've got single, and then we'll go solo with the widow part. Like, when does that voice come in? And how do you how do you make sure it's not out of laziness too of going like, well, I really need this golf thing? And you're like, Do you really need it for 27 straight weeks Saturdays in a row? Like, I think I mean if that's but like like how I think you need to because like you're always gonna self-sacrifice, and I think that's like be and then but and I think the the the reflection for me is like, and again, not I don't know everyone's story at the ballet gymnastics that my daughter does, but I look at it as like, well, these moms can do all this stuff, then we should be able to do all this stuff. There might be a single parent there, I don't know. I haven't asked yet, or I haven't figured it all out, um, because it's still new, but then all of a sudden I realize, like, oh, maybe maybe we can't do all this stuff because I'm driving around and no one's able to go to my daughter's swim meet or whatever. It's like we can't do that on Thursdays because that's when the oldest has a meet or Thursday evenings or whatever. So I just it's like, how how do you like I guess how do you is there a way to verify since we don't have a spouse that like am I being selfish by taking this time or am I being selfless, right?

Ben: 56:19

I think you're being realistic. Okay, instead of being a selfish, selfless kind of scenario, it's a uh uh yeah, it's it's a a realism of you can't like can you hear the baby monitor? It's one of mine talking in the background. Yeah, sorry. It's real, folks. Yeah, there it is. There's like actually have kids. We don't, we don't hopefully uh hopefully he doesn't start singing because he's he's had some winners in there. Has he? Um it's but like it's it's that ability to know that your kids need things, you need things, and if it's like you said, if it's golf for 27 weeks straight and it's and you it allows you the other six days of the week to be the best parent you can be, then rock that freaking golf tournament every single Saturday. Sure. And um, because I and it's and it's fresh for me too, because I thought I'd had it kind of reined in and then like I had a nice combo, and then I walked into the scenario where there were surgeries for outlets, sick kids, busy schedules, and every single bit of it that I had that was part of that schedule was gone. And so I had that kind of like I have that like ripped-off band-aid feel of um what it's like to totally overexpend yourself, and it's not good for anyone in the picture, yourself, kids, I agree. Yeah, and and if you are doing that long term for your children, can't imagine the repercussions of that, right? Like it is going to leave a mark, like they are going to start either copying the behavior or go like, well, I guess daddy yelling is the jam, or like I guess we punch things in this house. I guess, yeah. Like, so the option is violence against inanimate objects. Like, we're not streaming in pillows anymore, we're punching really sturdy walls. Okay, cool. Um, but like and like obviously that's uh uh one end of the spectrum, but like it's it's a perfect example on how it can go sideways on you quickly for all the right reasons, too, by the way. Right, none of it yeah.

Matt: 58:48

I mean, like it wasn't like we were bringing up selfish things or anything like that.

Ben: 58:51

Yeah, no, it was like we're gonna it's it's a matter of creating experiences and creating yeah good memories for the kids and doing things for them for development and things like it's just and I and I think I think I just had this, I think, I think, I think, I think I just had this thought.

Matt: 59:09

And I I'm pretty sure the reason I'm digging for this question is because I'm trying to figure out and I think it's not just for myself, I think it's for some other uh dads in the Facebook group and some of the other the other dads I talk with. Um is if you can find time for an activity to make your yourself happy, you can probably find time to par perhaps to start putting energy into either making yourself and improving in ways you want to, whatever that means to you. We all have areas that we want to become better, bigger, better, whatever. Um but you might be able to find a way to move forward with because I listened to our commercial not that long ago, uh, with learning to love again. Because I think one of the things I my initial need to response to any time I hear anybody say that they're dating, I'm like, they can't see me because we're on video, but I'm shaking my head going, how? When? How do you find the time? It's because the first step is you have to be willing to do something for yourself. And if that means golf first, in this example we're using, then guess what you'll be able to do in week 28? You'll be able to find a babysitter to go out. Whether that's with friends or whatever, to find something else.

Ben: 1:00:18

Um, on the opposite end of that, like like our friend who recently got married. Which one there's been so many left, isn't it amazing?

Matt: 1:00:26

And not the Prego one, uh, the other one, which by the way, but a teaser, Nick and Mandy, hopefully are gonna be on the show, right?

Ben: 1:00:34

But like, but Nick, yeah, yeah, his outlet was partner, right? It wasn't correct, it wasn't an activity, it wasn't a group thing. His and he dialed it in too. Like, like we're like we're like for you, um, an outlet is golf. His was I need a partner, yeah.

Matt: 1:00:56

And he went in like full on, yeah, and and and found an absolute amazing person. And so, but again, and I also think not only not only was that his thing, I also think he made it a priority, he made it a purpose. And you have to, like, and and I think you have to, and this is where I'm you know, I'm it's almost like trying to eliminate the excuse of well, I can't because, but you're like, if you can find time to make yourself happy by playing golf, going rock climbing, snow skiing, playing video games, doing civil war reenactment, if you've gotten that part of your grief journey, yeah, you can probably find the time. And I think that's what I was trying to because you know, there's all these other excuses we can use, and I and I think that there are enough guys that because of our situation, we look at the, and I'll just use the the the um ledger of but I'm doing all the good dad things. Why am I not still finding more fulfilling happiness? Well, you're doing all the right things for your kids, you know, you're making all the right choice, or you know, doing everything you can, the best to your abilities that we all are, but you've forgotten a part of yourself that I'm pretty sure your spouse would tell you to go take care of yourself.

Ben: 1:02:05

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Matt: 1:02:07

Yeah, and it's and that doesn't necessarily you have to go find a partner, but you need to be finding things that fill you back up again.

Ben: 1:02:16

Right, and if the associated just to your kids, right, and you can't use them as an excuse because right there are two like why don't I have family clips? Well, there's urban sitter, there's care.com, there's a my recent situation or their situation, like the neighbors.

Matt: 1:02:35

I guarantee you, if I is as much as it may be an act of humility for me to be like, listen, I'm I'm gonna go meet somebody. Yeah, now there might be a little bit of teasing, there might be a little bit of something, there might be a little something else, but I am sure my neighbor would gladly have Blair for two hours on a Saturday while I were to go to do something.

Ben: 1:02:53

Yeah, it I was even just in a conversation with one of my neighbors saying, It's like, what are you going? Like, I'm going to an adult weekend this weekend. They're like, Good for you. That's amazing.

Matt: 1:03:04

Your neighbor was probably like went back inside and was like, Guess what Ben gets to do? He gets to go, he's he's figured it out, he gets to go gravity, and he's having a guy weekend. Great.

Ben: 1:03:14

Now, now he's in trouble, and I'm just but and they and they but they also prioritize they'll they've done weekend babysitters and like they've realized that kind of part of their life, and it's it's there are definitely easy ways to make it happen.

Matt: 1:03:33

I well, and I think here's the thing Marcy and I used to talk about yours, mine, and hour vacations, right? Or trips, vacation sounds like a great thing. So go with the weekend with the girls. I go for a weekend golfing with the guys, uh, we take a trip with the family, right? With our kids, nephews, whatever. We go to Kalahari, that's an hour trip and or a like a big family trip. And then as a couple, you need to go. Well, and I think one of the things is when that person sounding board is gone, you throw it into the ether and it never bounces back, going, like, don't forget about yourself. Because we throw it out there and we're like, well, I'll take a trip for the kid, I'll take a trip with my family, I'll go see the in-laws, I'll see my family, I'll see my friends. And then all of a sudden you go, like, wait, did I, when I say see my friends, like go see them with the kids in the family? And you go like, uh oh, I haven't done anything for me. And because there's not somebody in our life supporting that grow that decision that we're in a relationship with, I think it's that like, you know, yes, your mother, yes, a close friend might be able to fulfill the the confirmation that you need to go do it. But I think that guys, I think we struggle with because we're not so great at self-care anyway. We struggle with going, like, I need to do this for me, because when I come back from doing this thing for me, I'll be better at what I was doing before, whatever that is.

Ben: 1:04:47

I would actually say I've done a better job of doing that after the fact since when it's um part, there's like multiple things, partially because like there was that inability to know that she could take care of the kids when I was gone because if she got because of her situation, yeah, because of the right, and so like if it was like if she got too sick or out of commission, like just so I had yeah, it was too much. So like I there wasn't I I even going to like a show, like a concert, let alone a guy's night or a weekend, let alone got a weekend away. The last time I had had an actual weekend away or a trip with some buddies or something was I went backcountry hiking and camping in Yellowstone with a buddy when I lived in Chicago. That was the last time I had done something like that.

Matt: 1:05:47

Remind me again, when were you in Chicago? I think we passed, didn't we?

Ben: 1:05:50

2009 through 2012.

Matt: 1:05:53

I think that was quite literally. Yeah, like there was the like there was like a two-year span when I wasn't in Chicago. I have to go figure out the map.

Ben: 1:06:00

But I know I went, no, it was like it was almost it was actually more like like it was late 2009. So it was like 2010 through early 2012.

Matt: 1:06:08

Yeah, well, I was definitely here in 2020. That's crazy.

Ben: 1:06:12

Anyway, yeah. So and and then because it became a one of those things where like the situations change, priorities, like you have to like, well, I can't because of this, I can't because of this. And now you have to look, you look at a scenario, I I do need this as an individual. This is a part of who thing is, and this is how I become happier again. And um, and you make it, you have to, and what's this? This is actually kind of funny, but like what I remember the first time I was told this, and I was like, You want me to do what? Because depending on your situation as a solo parent, the time frame you've gotten to get to where we are now, yep, you like your brain rewires itself for for whatever reason, whether there's protection, yep, transition, um, it physically changes itself, right? And so when you're presented with a drastic change again, you're not used to it. So I actually had one of my therapists actually was like, he's like, I want you to actively write out a self-goal per week. We're gonna start with one goal per week for self-care, whether it is a physical activity or if it is a going out with friends, or like whatever your jam is, if it's video games, music, what like because you have to retrain your brain that that is okay to do. Yeah, I love it. Because you wouldn't ever think like the pretend you wake up in the morning. Yeah.

Matt: 1:07:59

Well, and this is this is one of the things that I remember same same guy, I'm assuming we're talking about, right? Uh, that he was telling me was um that the whole reason initially after the the the death event happens, and your brain kind of does this this cocoon thing specifically around being happy. And this is why so early on in grief, people will, and I understand, I empathize and I can sympathize, all of them I can understand. You go, I'll never be happy again. It's because your brain is wrapped happiness and around this bad event. And for a for a moment, for a moment in time, it associates happiness with the most earth-shattering event of your life, your spouse dying. And it it says, Well, we can't be happy for right for this moment, whatever that might be. But I think the problem is, like you're saying, is if you don't go do some work of rewiring that happy means happy. And this is the first step was I noticed I started to say things of of like if I was happy once before, why would it stand that I couldn't be happy again? It may be a different happy, because it won't be with my wife because she's dead, but I found it. Why why if I had never found happiness before, it would stand a reason you might not be able to find it ever.

Ben: 1:09:12

You've been happy before.

Matt: 1:09:13

But if you're happy before.

Ben: 1:09:14

And you had your heart broken and you were happy. And you had your heart broken, you were happy.

Matt: 1:09:17

Yeah. And get and so, and so then all of a sudden you go like, and so those little, those little tweaks you're talking about, like they start to creep in. But it's interesting, so like he once you had to do one one thing a week, a goal of self-care, one thing a week, right? And then did what did you start to find? How long did how long do you think that goal took till you started to realize, like, oh, making myself happy is kind of an okay thing.

Ben: 1:09:39

Well, there was about a two or three week when no one was like, Well, that's bullshit.

Matt: 1:09:43

Um because like, ladies and gentlemen, we call that a learning curve.

Ben: 1:09:48

I'm like, I'm not gonna write down something like I'm not gonna write down the fact that I want to go for a bike ride. That's stupid. And it was like, oh, like I didn't go for a bike ride because I didn't run it down. So then I started I I would say, gosh, it it was it was several months. Yep. Um post post fog, um, to like when you could really kind of appreciate and like really try to work on it. But it was, it was I had to make a list and you had to force yourself. So it's like, okay, this week I'm gonna list. If you're not a list guy, which I'm I am like one of the most non-list guys of all time. I have to have a list. And like I that act like crossing something off. You and Marcy, man.

Matt: 1:10:35

My problem is the the list never I get not only do I get no satisfaction out of doing the list crossing out, I immediately, if I did cross, I just put three things at the bottom of the list, and I'm like, well, then I've done nothing. I'm the war, I am quite literally the list worse person right now. Google tasks, 911 things I'm supposed to do right now.

Ben: 1:10:57

Yeah, that might you might want to try some pen and paper or like use some fun colors, or I don't know, something worse.

Matt: 1:11:04

Like you can see complete and utter joy, you know, like like scratching a uh lotto ticket, like scratching a lotto ticket back and forth, like black it out joy, right? Like everyone loves it when she crossed that little pen, and it was always usually a different color of what she wrote down, and across the thing, it may have been better than uh than sex for her. I'm not really 100% sure.

Ben: 1:11:25

It's kind of close, it's a different dope release for sure. It is, and I would like I wouldn't just do a line but I'm okay with it. Yeah, I wouldn't do a line and be like, oh, you'd be like, yeah, need them, boom, done. Next. Um, and like when you look down and the papers all like crossed out, you're like, yeah.

Matt: 1:11:43

So for you non-list for you non-list makers, what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to affiliate the feeling of goodness with the action. So, in other words, if you want a clean kitchen, you affiliate how you feel after you do the thing. And then usually a lot of times you need a person to help kick it off for you. So, in other words, like I will clean my house while my house cleaner is here because I don't feel right and I'll go ahead and so like when my mom's folding laundry, I'm like, Well, I better do something. It's a weird thing. I don't need a list, it's a whole different way that we function like other people can sit around and not do anything because they're like, Well, my list is done. And I'm like, No, I can't, I gotta do something.

Ben: 1:12:23

I don't think I have the ability to sit still anymore.

Matt: 1:12:25

I don't think you do either, buddy. You show me the picture of the laundry. So, anyway, so going back to so for so, and also my same therapist, right? I think we're talking about the same same person. Uh, he was telling me what I need to do is I actually need to do like he goes, You don't need to do lists. He goes, You need to do like quite literally, you need to do like an action, like a thing. Like, you don't need to worry about like a task list, you just need to be like, today I will do this thing, and maybe yeah.

Ben: 1:12:51

Well, mine was like, go for a bike ride. And that's literally where I had to start.

Matt: 1:12:55

Was and so what'd you say? Probably maybe six, six to six to nine months. It seems about if everything's kind of normal, it's that seems to be what did they do?

Ben: 1:13:04

Yeah, like starting kind of fog was yeah, fog for sure was six to nine months, yeah. Transition within within that six to nine months to get the new habit, it's sure, and like try to get that going. But yep, because it wasn't actually our current therapist that told me that oh it wasn't okay, two different okay.

Matt: 1:13:24

It was that's okay, that's right.

Ben: 1:13:25

That was the one I had previously. Um and uh and it and like I said, it was and it was like I said, it wasn't a list, it was just a single and the actual was like a single action point of. And that's kind of what he was telling. This is what yeah, and it was this week, actually. And ours is like, he's like, write it down, put it on a post-note.

Matt: 1:13:46

If you're like if but like he's like, and the other I think real quick about about actively writing it down, the irony is I think there is no better powerful way to set your goals, not on a Google document, not in digital. You take pen to paper, there's something about changing the universe, and when those two things interact, I yeah, I and that's the weird part. I firmly believe in that for goals and aspirations. Give me a list, I'm like, dumbest thing on the planet. Stupid, dumb. Maybe I'm still on a learning curve. So I would you say would so when did you were you able to write down two things or three things or go like this is actually a thing that I need to be doing for myself? Like just ballparking.

Ben: 1:14:28

I can't, I can't, yeah. I was just saying, just started to become a figure-ish, yeah. But like it was it definitely started with a single activity, and then the single activity was like, oh, hey, you do enjoy doing this. This is okay, this is fun, this gives you something. And you're like, well, okay, we've got that in the mix. And it, I think it was more of just the act, the action of going, do something fun for yourself, whether it was ride a bike, go out to dinner, go to a friend's house, watch a movie, like whatever it was.

Matt: 1:15:03

I just kind of silly movie. Anything that's forced to forced you, right?

Ben: 1:15:07

It just kind of forced your brain to go, hey, this, whatever it is is important. You need to mix whatever this is back into your life. And and like it kind of just kind of like, and it was like after, I don't think I actually had to make any sort of multi-action list. It was just that initially it was that creation of this needs to happen, whatever. And then it went from there to kind of naturally, hey, this is a thing. Oh, I'll try that too, or I'll do this too, or just kind of steamrolled onto itself. Yeah, it kind of opened that door to allow the rest of it to come in, I guess is the easiest way to put it.

Matt: 1:15:57

Makes sense. Yeah, so I think I think one of the good takeaways, well, I'd say two takeaways is we're trying to keep this one a little bit, a couple of takeaways. One, going backwards, I think that if people, if anyone listening is struggling with finding kind of like their own self-happiness, I really I think that doing the one thing a day that's very action-oriented, it can't be like, you know, laugh, like no, no, no, you need to know like right that that's what you're talking about, right? Yeah, action.

Ben: 1:16:26

Something, a thing with yeah, right.

Matt: 1:16:28

And I would probably say try to make it healthy, but listen, man, if you're really happy when you're eating a double dip from Dairy Queen, go for it at this point, especially if we're talking about it. And then I think the other thing is recognizing, and I don't know, maybe you can kind of help me kind of paraphrase this one, but like just because the sounding board isn't there to confirm your decision that this is an okay thing for you to be doing for yourself, it's a go ahead and do it anyway.

Ben: 1:16:57

Oh, yeah, you're gonna make mistakes for sure. Like just try it because um yeah, I think just trying to allow yourself to do things that could create fun or joy or anything in your life, or refill your battery. Like, I think all of us would say the different people we've talked to that A, we've we're different people than we were before. Oh, that's and there's different things that um trigger joy than that did before, and so you're gonna have to go on this like voyage of self-discovery, and and they need to be disassociated from your kid.

Matt: 1:17:40

Like, listen, I love I love Blair watching Ruby Barrel ball, good lord. I that was water, like I don't know what to tell you. Um, I love watching Blair do ballet, and I get no more joy out of life than watching Samantha do any one of her sporting activities, but that's through them.

Ben: 1:17:56

Yeah, you've got to have adult like contact alone, whatever like you I the kids are wonderful, I love them to death, but you as an adult, you need an adult contact. Yeah, I agree, yeah. And then so and then so or your vocabulary would become nothing but potty and treats and or you wind up with an Australian accent because you watch too much bluey.

Matt: 1:18:23

Um the and then I think the the third one is and I think people probably starting to hear a theme here that receiving and asking for help, whether you've blown out your Achilles heel or you're overscheduled to deliver your kids someplace is super important. I think, because of where I'm at in my situation, putting a couple of, like I said, asterisk names and letting them know you probably should give them a heads up that hey, yeah, you're my person that you may want to try to reach out, you know, maybe again because my situation, I kind of it's a new circle. And trust your gut and your parenting heart that if you feel good about somebody watching your kid that it's gonna be okay. It may not be perfect, they might wind up with ice cream for dinner, but in the pinch, it's okay. Yeah, because I think that's what really this, this, this I was I had been able to uh juggle, manage, not ask because I was mobile and I was able to do stuff. And in this day and age, like I can still get groceries delivered and everything, but you know, I literally was thinking, like, well, how do I get I'm sure in an emergency I can make it happen, but it'd be really scary when you can't put any weight on your foot and there's snow on the ground. How do I even get in and out of the car seat? Like, I don't how would I even make this happen? So I think that you know, one of the other again, that making sure that prior to anyone else blowing out their Achilles heel, maybe just make sure you've got the right people in place that you trust in those when you drop glass on the ground and cut your foot that you can call uh for those. Yeah, just have a neighbor

Ben: 1:20:00

Yeah, I mean everyone's got someone.

Matt: 1:20:03

I guarantee them you almost said it, but you almost said neighbor, and I'm like, I almost guarantee you, anyone listening, there is someone that you share a wall with that would be more than willing to be that person. It may not be your first choice, it might not be your fifth choice, but it may be the most convenient choice.

Ben: 1:20:23

Sorry, I had a bad dream conversation that happened.

Matt: 1:20:26

Oh, little buddy. No, no, no, no apologies. Um, so yeah, so I think those are the three things. Like again, the the the theme of preemptively but also asking for help and receiving help. Um I don't know if it's I can't speak for women, I'm I'm not one. And uh but I don't know if it's the whole like man thing of like, well, I can handle it. Well, we can, but sometimes maybe we can handle it with a little more help. Uh again, self-care is not selfish and finding and again, depending on where you are in your grief journey, you know, if you're listening to this three months out, give yourself a little more space and grace. It's gonna take it, take, take some it's gonna take some minutes. Okay. Uh and then uh, you know, the the last one of um you know disassociating some of your joy uh away from the kids because if you can find time to do one thing, you may be able to find time to do more things that'll bring more happiness to your life. And also hopefully when you take inventory of how you were when you weren't doing those things, you will find that you're actually probably a better dad.

Ben: 1:21:34

It will cascade 100% all the way through everything. Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 1:21:39

Um, hey buddy, I appreciate it. I know we probably went a little longer than we were trying to. I know you're tired when we start talking. Yeah, I know, it just kind of happens sometimes. Uh I appreciate it. And uh it's always good to catch up. And uh the only thing I'd say is uh my lesson would be don't forget to foam roll and stretch your stretching is super important, apparently.

Ben: 1:22:03

More so when you're in your 40s than previously. Stupid foam roller.

Matt: 1:22:09

All right, be well, everybody, and thanks again. We'll talk to you. See you guys. Bye-bye.