The Solo Dad Podcast

Episode 2.2 Widow Wednesday Jeff K. Father of 2 young boys, Ovarian Cancer Widower

• Season 2 • Episode 2

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Matt:

Welcome to another episode of the Solo Dad Podcast Wednesday edition, which is now going to be called the Widow Wednesday episodes. I have got uh this is Matt, sorry, uh one of your co-hosts, and I've got a brother. I've been saying brother in grief, I think that works, but I also need to find something else. But uh my brother in grief, Jeff, is with me. Jeff, how are you doing tonight, bud?

SPEAKER_05:

I'm still kicking, still swimming.

Matt:

I always love when I talk, right? One of the comebacks was always that that's better than an alternative.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, my thing, my thing is still swimming.

Matt:

Still swimming. Hey, I and you know what? There's not a bad thing, you know, Dory's not the worst uh idol to have to just keep swimming.

SPEAKER_05:

Although I mine has nothing to do with Dory.

Matt:

I was like, I was like, I would sometimes though, I would like a short memory. It would be nice to forget some stuff, but there's some things you don't ever want to forget. So, Jeff, first, um, I know we're talking a little bit before I press record, and I didn't mention this before, but I do want to say thank you for taking time out of your day and your evening. I know you're a solo dad. Uh, you and I have gotten and known each other through the solo dad uh group, and uh I can't wait to hear more. Well, that's kind of sounds bad, but I can't wait for you to share more of your story, uh, hear more about your journey as a solo dad. And uh I look forward to uh to hearing more about it and being encouraged for what you've done. So thank you for taking time out of your evening because I know it's not easy all the time. So thanks, bud.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, thank you, sir, and I'm happy to be here and I enjoy telling my story because I feel if I can relate and somehow to somebody else, if I can help them, then that helps me at the same time.

Matt:

Yeah, I love, you know, I think some people who are more private sometimes go, like, why do we share our story like this? It should be like our wives are special. Why are you putting that out there or something like that? I've I haven't gotten too much flack, but every now I can kind of understand that. But there's a great phrase, and I'm gonna butcher it, which is a page out of your story could be a page of someone else's survival guide, right? It's like literally somebody listening to you can take that information and know that learn something from it, or realize, wow, you know, you and I are about the same, we're about four years past, or like we're in the thick of it. You're like, how am I gonna do this? Well, here's two or way more guys than that, but here's two guys that have made it through the first year, the second year, and we're still here and our kids are still okay. So I I appreciate it too, man. That's that's great. Um, so I I would like to start kind of on the heavy side, but I'm just gonna kick it off with a question that I think is gonna be a recurring one for this kind of segment, which is um please share with me and the people that listen um about how you became a widow, and uh we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_05:

My wife was carrying my mine and her second child together, and they noticed a buildup of fluid in the in the amniotic sac, and they brushed it off, they they you know played it off as as abnormal but not unseen or unheard of. But Jackson, which we named him, his heart rate began to dip when he was almost four weeks before his due date. But he was such a big baby, anyhow, already he was almost seven pounds. So they were like, we're gonna do an emergency C-section for the baby's sake.

SPEAKER_03:

So they prepped us, took us in the room, and I heard the word lesion and I knew that was not good.

SPEAKER_00:

During the C-section?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And of course they did some tests and found out that it was ovarian cancer.

Matt:

Ovarian.

SPEAKER_05:

Ovarian cancer.

Matt:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

And basically a few weeks after Jackson was born, she started chemo.

Matt:

And how how old was Rachel at the time?

SPEAKER_05:

Rachel was at the time 39 years old.

Matt:

Oh man, so young.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, 39 when chemo started, when she put it over Jack. Uh chemo was going great. I mean, she had great doctors out of Chattanooga, Tennessee, and her CA 125 number.

SPEAKER_05:

I don't know if people realize what that number is, it basically leveled it's it measures the uh the amount of of poison in your blood, I guess you could say. It monitors the the level of the cancer.

Matt:

Oh yeah, yeah. In colon cancer, it's uh oh, is it they they have another they maybe it's the same one, it's a shorter C H C I A. Anyway, it's a number that basically says also the one in colon cancer.

SPEAKER_05:

For a normal person, it's like one to seven.

Matt:

Yeah, that's the same number, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And it's like in cancer patients, it's it's and Rachel, it was like 2400.

unknown:

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_05:

And we went for the first visit with oncologists, they told her it was stage four ovarian cancer with a prognosis of uh two to five years. So she started a chemo, she did the uh the debulking or that she had the hysterectomy and everything. And the chemo was going great. Her her levels were coming down, they actually started coming down pretty rapidly when she started a new different drug.

unknown:

Like a different cocktail or whatever, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And her goal was, you know, each week watching the number go down, and and she strived to get it under a thousand.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, and she went for her chemo uh middle of July the following year, 2016, and her number was uh 1,09. So she was adamant and certain that when she went back for her next chemo, that she would be under a thousand.

Matt:

Yeah, because it'd been trending that way, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Before that got to happen, she actually suffered a hemorrhagic stroke.

unknown:

Oh man.

SPEAKER_03:

And ended up on life support for quite a while.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, brother, I'm so sorry.

Matt:

Yeah, that happened uh, was this kind of the 20th of July? Was this do they think that I mean I know I mean my wife went through cancer.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, you know, with chemo, you have the blood thinners and everything.

Matt:

It just beats just beats the crap out of your body. Chemo kicks your yeah, it does. You can I check the little explicit thing, so when I can always bleep stuff out, but you can say ass.

SPEAKER_05:

Chemo kicks your ass, and yeah, it was kicking hers, but she was still, you know, she was still doing the mom thing every day. She was still taking care of the kids. I was working three days a week, so I was home four days a week, so that was good.

Matt:

And real quick, you had real quick, you had you have Jackson who was born in the C section.

SPEAKER_05:

Jackson was born in in August of 2015.

Matt:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh have Lucas, right? His brother, who was born the prior August, August of 2014.

Matt:

Okay. So you have two you have two kids under the age of three at the time. At the time when this is all going down. Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, when she had her stroke, Lucas hadn't even had his second birthday yet. So and Jack hadn't had his first.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, brother.

SPEAKER_05:

And she stayed in intensive care for almost a month.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

She went from the the most severe ICU to uh intermediate ICU.

SPEAKER_03:

And of course, being in that unit, there's no visitors under 12. After about after about a month, they moved her to a regular room and we actually got to go up there. I think it was the day after Lucas' birthday, which was August 11th. And had Lucas's second birthday party in a hospital room.

Matt:

And how at the time, how aware is Rachel?

SPEAKER_05:

She like she just she she after the stroke, the stroke messed her up pretty bad.

Matt:

Sure.

SPEAKER_05:

She she could she had real real problems with talking.

Matt:

Understandable, right?

SPEAKER_05:

And even when she started to talk, it was the the problem with word association. She she didn't know what word she was looking for. And so after after about a week in a private room, they said that she was ready for for therapy.

SPEAKER_03:

They were gonna move her into a rehabilitation center. And we took her, got her set up in in the rehab center back here in Georgia. And the first day she was so miserable.

SPEAKER_05:

She said that they were giving her her medicine on a schedule rather than as needed basis and basically keeping her doped up.

SPEAKER_03:

So she she had no you know real, you know, control, and with her being doped up, she was not receiving the therapy that she was supposed to have.

Matt:

Right, yeah, when you're on that many medications, you're eat sleeping or you're in la la.

SPEAKER_05:

The very next day I contacted hospice and talked to them about bringing Rachel home and asked, you know, could could hospice with Rachel continuing improvement, could they set up therapy and stuff like that for her at home? And they were like, absolutely. So I brought home the very next day. So she stayed there two days at the rehab center.

Matt:

So ballpark, what this would have been when? Like just what time?

SPEAKER_05:

This would have been at the end of August 2016.

Matt:

Okay, yeah. So I want to pause real quick. So you got the two boys at home. Can you recall? I know it's been four years.

SPEAKER_05:

I have a lot more kids than that here.

Matt:

Well, right, right. I know it's a teaser, folks. I got with the with the two boys at home with the littles. Can you recall like like I I struggle to realize like when my wife's cancer journey, like to and from trips and all this stuff, and Facebook now kind of reminds me, I'm like, we would just go to a cancer treatment, like we just go and we had help. And but I'm like, oh my god, we left all my all the time. But like, can you recall like back and forth?

SPEAKER_05:

That's my blessing and my curse is my my memory.

unknown:

I I remember a lot more than most people.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, like I can tell you straight up the day that I met Rachel was a Monday.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and I do in 1996. Remember, it was a Monday.

Matt:

I don't know what I had for lunch yesterday. So, but can you recall like a little bit of like the just the like describe what like stroke moving different units, getting her home, the backforth. I know you're sound like you're left.

SPEAKER_05:

She was she was in Chattanooga. I live, I live in North Georgia, so it was about a 30, 45 minute drive from here to the hospital.

Matt:

Oh my god. Every like probably every day. Every day, just about, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I would go up, stay with her all day. Being an ICU, you know, you have your your visiting hours and right. The doctors kind of come to understand that visiting hours was a term I did not comprehend.

Matt:

Well, I would say I would also say the twofold. I think there's something when you when the stage four cancer gets put on a medical thing, I think people realize a lot of rules go out the window.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I I I bug the system a lot, you know. Like you know, when she was when she was on life support, they they did the tracheotomy and everything.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

When she started getting better, I told the doctor, I said, you know, my dad had COPD, he lived with a trait. I I know other people that have been through that who've had the trait taken out, and I said, I think she's ready. And he's like, Well, we can take it out, but if something happens, we'll have to put it back in and that'll be more traumatic for her.

SPEAKER_03:

So I'm gonna recommend against it. And I didn't lose. And she was fine, right?

SPEAKER_05:

And she was fine, but yeah, I would uh well when she first had this stroke and they took her to Chattanooga, I was up there for like 72 hours. Then I finally came back home that night, second night, third night, whatever it was. Yeah, and then it would be uh uh it was summer, so it was great because you know my oldest teenage daughter, she was there to watch the kids.

SPEAKER_03:

So I would go to the hospital, stay all day, come back at night. And one of the nurses up there, she's like, I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you keep going. She's like, Are you not worried you're just gonna collapse?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

And that's when I told her about my story of a great white shark.

Matt:

Right, yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

That's why I'm still swimming, you know.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. They still, yeah, good point. Not Dory, the other reason, right? So we'll unpause. So she, I'm assuming, gets home, gets some hospice care. This is it looks like about a year after, right? Diagnosis and and the birth of John.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, she came home almost a year after they found the cancer because she was actually here for Jack's first birthday.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

unknown:

And no, actually, she wasn't. So it was a few, it was a week after Jack's birthday.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, all right.

unknown:

That's right. So it was almost a year to the from the time she started chemo that she actually got home. Okay. And with the with the the stroke that she'd suffered, it paralyzed the right side of her body.

SPEAKER_05:

Her right arm, her right leg was pretty much useless. And the doctors and you know, the oncologists thought that with chemo being as rough as it is on a person who's otherwise healthy healthy, right? Like you need chemo if you're healthy, but it's a good point. But that was his word. You know, chemo for someone who's relatively healthy is is traumatic enough. But for someone who's gone through what Rachel's gone through, he thought the chemo would be too much, so he wanted to put it on hold for a while. And so she came home, like I said, she started uh physical therapy, occupational therapy, and speech therapy from here at home. And they would only come like two, three times a week. So every I mean, you know, one day speech therapy, one day occupational therapy, one day physical therapy.

Matt:

Oh wow, so like once a week for each, right?

SPEAKER_05:

So I was doing the therapy myself. I was helping her with it myself. And I mean, the nurses, they were like going away. They're like, You sure you're not like registered? I don't know. They're like, Well, you should be, because yeah, and I was like, Well, you know, when you're doing something for a paycheck, it's a little different from doing something for someone you love.

Matt:

I all the time when people in in the moment I don't think I don't think I could uh uh articulate it, but now it comes out as when people are like, Well, how did you do all that? Well, we do what we do for those that we love. Like, I don't, I don't know. I don't there's a lot of things we do, non-cancer related, non-terminal illness related, for those that we love. Like we'll do anything, we'll do quite almost literally thing anything for our kids, right? Like and so it's like it's not, you know, you hear the stories about people lifting up cars or whatever, or you know, you work three jobs so the kid can get, you know, whatever, go to the college or have the thing, or whatever. We do what we do for our or put a roof over their head, even right? Like we do what we do for those that we love. And I think it's it's very similar to what you're saying. You're like, yeah, when you're when you're going to school to become a registered nurse, which is a very noble profession, or a physical therapist, that's awesome that people do that, but it's a little different when it when it the whole start and the reason you do it is because you love the person. It's a totally it comes out totally different.

SPEAKER_05:

And I actually had a a collision, a wreck when I was young. I couldn't have been 17, 18, 18 or 19 years old. I t-boned a pickup truck doing 50 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_00:

I couldn't have felt good.

SPEAKER_05:

And I messed up my back, and I've had back problems ever since.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, but when Rachel was sick, no problem carrying her to the showers.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

Carried her up and down, up and down the steps more than once.

Matt:

That's I mean, it's like love dopamine right there. Right, yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05:

And that that explains actually, you know, not just uh the ability to do that, but everything that I got through. Yeah, it's just doing what you gotta do, yeah.

Matt:

Yeah, and I think too, the the interesting part is like we say that, and I I want to make sure we continue with your story, and it'll probably come up, but we do what we gotta do, but it doesn't mean that we don't fall on our knees at times, and it doesn't mean there aren't times that we slump into the corner and cry. The difference that I want to say the difference is we realize at some point, whether it's five minutes or five days, we get up again and we go again.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, we have no other choice, yeah, especially especially with little ones.

Matt:

Yeah, they're so demanding. I don't know if you know this. I know you've got you have the two boys there and some others. Again, teaser, but uh uh they want to eat like three times a day. It's ridiculous. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05:

And you've seen pictures that I've posted. My boys can eat.

Matt:

I can eat. I've seen, I have seen I I will right before we started, I heard what you're having on Saturday. I'm like, well, if I leave now, I can get out of there and have some dinner. And I know it's a true open door invitation, Jeff and I will definitely be taking up on it. Probably when the weather's a little nicer. I don't know if I want to be hauling, hauling down during the winter, but okay, so we'll unpause, we'll come back. So Rachel's at home, you got the two boys. I know you've got um an older daughter helping out. Um what uh so you're doing the physical therapy, you have a little bit of the hospice, which you know, again, I'm glad you brought up hospice. I know Adam mentioned it in the the Widow Wednesday that I just publ that I just released. Hospice isn't also just for people that are like our great-great-grandparents laying in bed slowly passing. I think some people think that that's all it does. I'm glad you mentioned physical therapy. We had some really great experience with our hospice, even though it's very short. I think people forget that they do offer other things. So I'm glad that you were able to say hospice.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and I heard Adam talking about the counselors too. And yeah. Yeah. They actually they actually stay for uh Uh I think it's 14 months after passes away.

Matt:

I it sounds right. It's like they're assigned to the case because I remember I got a card. I don't want to get off topic, but I remember I got a card and I was kind of like, who is this from? And I realized, oh gosh, it's out of my couch for like you know uh uh a day a month for like three months that I'd kind of forgotten about and all the hate. So unpause, Rachel's at home, you've gotten some hospice care, you're still you're still working some days a week.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh oh at the at the point when she had her stroke, I said the leave absence from work.

Matt:

Good for you. Okay. And with that time.

SPEAKER_05:

I actually didn't go back to work until after months after she passed away.

Matt:

So you're at home doing the the the dad thing, taking care of Rachel. It's about a year after diagnosis. Like just when you start reading that off, I can definitely get where people go, that's a lot. And we in the moment, like I didn't really think anything else. Like, yeah, I have a stage four cancer wife at home with a newborn. What's a big deal? Because that's just the reality. I mean, it is a big deal. It doesn't change it whether you have three kids that are teenagers. It's just when you read it out from anyone who hasn't walked on these paths before. It's a lot. So Rachel's at home. You're doing the therapy. Uh, you got the boys, you got a little bit of help from an older daughter. Uh, so keep going.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and you know, I actually got her to the point where she could walk to the shower by herself. And, you know, uh I got her the the shower seat and I got her the the shower head with the hose on it, so you know, everything, you know, and and with the with the tracheotomy that she had, it was a slow process to get her back to eating normal as well.

Matt:

Sure, because it's kind of like a stroke patient. I've never had to deal with anyone that was untrached, but it's kind of like a stroke patient, right? Where you got to teach them how to like swallow and chew again, right? Because the muscles have basically been not being used, if I remember correctly, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, okay, yeah, and you know, the stroke as well with the with the tracheotomy. So it was like double. Oh, that's right.

Matt:

Jeez, I forgot. I I've already forgot she had a stroke. I'm too busy worried about being a homophysical therapy with a stage four cancer. Keep going. Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, stage four cancer and a and a stroke, major stroke.

SPEAKER_03:

And uh yeah, we worked, I worked with her daily between the physical therapy and the occupational therapy and the speech therapy. I had a list of words that that she might need to relate to me that she couldn't figure out, you know, simple words like you know, pain or toilet or you know, and and she learned how to use her left hand to write when she needed to write. Things were were going better by by this time five years ago. She was actually enjoying going outside. She had a wheelchair that she could sit in, so she didn't have to, you know, but she was walking with the one of the walkers that you only have to use one hand with.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so you know, like I said, I had her walking and and talking and eating. Yeah, and the funniest part about her eating was, you know, I never in my life would have thought that I would be giving bolus feedings to somebody.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

And just like everything else, I just took to it naturally.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

But it got to the point where she wanted something. She wanted jello pudding, mashed potatoes, stuff that would go down easy where she wouldn't have to worry about chewing and making sure they were chewed up. So we started with the simple stuff and took her back to the doctor, and he felt that her progress was amazing, but that she still wasn't ready for chemo. So he told her to enjoy the holidays, come back in January.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

And so we thought, okay, we'll have Thanksgiving and Christmas, and we'll come back and see what the doctor says in January.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh, we go back in January. Again, he's even more impressed with the progress that she's made.

Matt:

And so this is like 2017-ish?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, January 2017.

Matt:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

He says, let's give it three more months.

SPEAKER_00:

And when you say doctor, is this also oncologist? Okay, go ahead. Yep.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, he said, let's give her three more months to build up some more strength before we start chemo back.

Matt:

Real quick, have there been any scans or anything done during this time?

SPEAKER_05:

No, they hadn't done any scans other than the blood work.

Matt:

Sure.

SPEAKER_05:

And her CA 125 wasn't back to where it was, so he wasn't as concerned.

SPEAKER_00:

Makes sense, sure.

SPEAKER_03:

And so we decided, okay, we'll take the doctor's word for it. Uh, she turned 41 on April 4th. And her hospice nurse came out and and I addressed concerns about the swelling in her stomach again. So she uh scheduled for Rachel to have some fluid removed.

SPEAKER_05:

But before that even happened, Rachel was in in some bad pain, and we took her to the local hospital, and they pretty much said, Oh, she has an oncologist, we don't want to deal with this, you know. You should call him.

SPEAKER_03:

So uh we set up an appointment to go to her doctor on April 7th, and he actually put her in the hospital, kept her in the hospital in Chattanooga for a few days.

SPEAKER_05:

They did some tests then and said that the cancer was back, strong as strong as strong as it's ever been, and that something they had they had a few different options. She could either start doing uh she could stay there and do like a daily chemo, which would have really kicked her ass, or they had a new drug, which he suggested we try, to where it was a basically a super strong cocktail, but she would only need it once a month.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So that that sounded more feasible to us, and then they told us pretty much how bad the cancer was, how it had spread.

Matt:

Just so, just so for people listening, like I know how colon cancer spreads, only because that's the only cancer uh uh so far, fortunately in my life, I've had to deal with, sadly enough. Um, does ovarian cancer like to go to certain places?

SPEAKER_05:

Uh it spread to her stomach, it was up in uh her upper her small intestine, close to her lungs. It wasn't affecting her lungs yet. Her brain, they they checked her brain again because of the stroke. Her brain was clean, everything was good. From you know, your ribs up, everything looked good, but below that it was looking pretty rough. And I actually had the oncologist partner come in and talk to me, and he basically said, No matter what we do, we're not gonna reverse this.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

He said, You can continue to do the chemo, but really all you're doing is is beating her up, even worse.

Matt:

Yeah, this is this is I think one of the hard things for people to understand if, again, they haven't walked on this path and been down this journey. And I know people get shocked when I retell them a conversation my wife and I had. Um, and basically we were told early on that you know, chemo's gonna work, it's gonna plateau. Or if it's gonna work, it's gonna work, and we'll see it work, and then it's gonna plateau. Who knows? Six months, a year, it's gonna, it's gonna stop having effects of just a law of diminishing returns with chemo. And then that plateau is kind of like where you're buying time, right? And then when it stops working, and I can only speak for colon cancer, they only have so many options, and then you're just beating them up, like you said, right? And then some of the options aren't even aren't even like feasible, like you know, if it's on the I mean say around peritoneal walls, right? Or it's on like the walls of the inside. I don't know if you know how that's worked, but you can't keep cutting cancer off the inside on you know, interior lining of it because there's nothing left. So that wasn't the case, but like liver was our issue, and and you there was no way for them to cut cancer out and leave for any liver to live, like this wasn't possible. And so once that option was off the table, you go like, Well, how how much beating up are you gonna do for the person? And then you get into quantity of life over quality of life, right? You go like, and that's not an easy decision making, and I'm not telling anyone who's listening that there's a right answer in there, they're both shitty, so keep going.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and and I talked with Rachel for several hours about this, and and it was her decision that she just wanted to go home.

Matt:

Yep. Can you uh real quick, I wonder, do you you say you have a good memory, which I'm not doubting you? Can you replay that conversation in your head anytime you want? Because I know I can with my wife.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely, and it's it's one of them where you know, should I have said this, should I said that, should I try to change her mind? But in the end, I I'm at peace. I know that I gave her what she wanted.

Matt:

Yeah. I I distinctly remember, maybe one day I'll have to interview myself. I distinctly remember being in Rush Hospital. I probably could go to the room if I really tried. It was just her and I. The doctors had all come and presented their ideas and options. They laughed. And we had had conversations about if this thing doesn't, if this thing goes the way I mean anyway, the look in her face and her telling me directly in my eyes, going like, I want to go home. I'm tired. I never said tired over a role keeping it. I was like, Got it, I understand what that meant. And I was like, home go. Right? Because we we had had a lot of too many long hospital days around her, so it wasn't like it was all known type stuff. So yeah, and so for people listening, I glad you said that Jeff, like you may replay it and think like what could it could have or should I said something different, or you know, whatever. But I think the thing that I take away is that again when you talk about you know giving the therapy out of love, I think that conversation happens in a bubble of love, right? Because it it's so tender and so personal, and no matter what our person's decision is, we were gonna we were gonna roll with it, wouldn't have mattered, right? So so she so decides to go home.

SPEAKER_05:

This would have been Yeah, so on April 10th, we left the hospital.

Matt:

God, it's so similar, like ours was really quick as well.

SPEAKER_05:

And went home, and the hospice nurse shows up and she's got a bottle of morphine, and she's like, just give her this many drops. And okay, I'm sure. You know, I gave her the morphine a couple of times, and I saw that it was just putting her out of her head.

unknown:

Yeah, it yeah. And so we we cut back and we were actually just giving her per cassettes. Oh wow, okay, rather than morphine, so that she could be awake and alert and know what was going on.

SPEAKER_03:

And she got to uh I I won't even use the word enjoy, but she got to be here for Easter. Be present, yeah. And on the 21st, she had another appointment to have fluid drain from her stomach again. So I told him, I said, you know, in the conditions she's in, I don't feel comfortable taking her to the hospital for the procedure for the fluid withdrawal, and and could they arrange medical transport? And the hospice nurse was like, sure, we can do that, you know, no problem.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, the morning of Rachel was less alert, she wasn't putting words together very well, and I called the hospice nurse and and I told her, I said, I said, I said, Rachel woke up this morning and she's not very alert today. I said she's slurring her words when she can actually produce words, and the hospice nurse said, It's time.

unknown:

Oh man, I yeah, God.

SPEAKER_03:

She said, I'm afraid to tell you that her body is shutting. Yeah, that was her exact words.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm afraid to tell you her body is shutting down.

Matt:

I dude, I man, I feel for I I can remember exactly where I was standing uh when we our hospice nurse explained to me like the exact pretty much the exact same words.

SPEAKER_00:

Where it's like her this is like I think there are words where this is it, her body is shutting down.

SPEAKER_05:

And then she said it won't it probably won't be more than a couple of hours. And I'm looking at my watch thinking, well, the kids won't be home for four more hours because they were at school at this point, you know.

SPEAKER_03:

Except the little ones, they were here with me.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

unknown:

And I called a couple of people. I don't I don't remember exactly who I called, but I did call some people and let them know what was happening.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh the EMT show up because they were supposed to show up, right?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

And I told them what was going on, and they come in, they assessed her, and they said uh it is our responsibility when we find somebody in this condition to transport them to emergency.

unknown:

You've got to be kidding me.

SPEAKER_03:

And I said, No, she has a DNR, so that's not necessary.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

And he basically, you know, I'm looking around, I'm pulling out folders, I can't find the DNR.

Matt:

Yeah, that's how it always goes. The one F and done.

SPEAKER_05:

But I do know, I do know where a copy is. Yeah, unless the hospice nurse has a copy.

unknown:

Oh.

SPEAKER_03:

So I call her back and she's like, I'll be right there. Well, they do their duty, load it up on a stretcher, take her down to the because like I said, my bedroom's upstairs, so they take her downstairs, they go out to the ambulance, and about the time they're loading her in the back of the ambulance, hospice nurse shows up. Roxanne comes out with the yeah, that was her name, Roxanne. She comes out with the the DNR, and the EMT told me straight to my face, he said, She don't look good. He said, I don't give a damn what that paper says. If you want me to save her life, I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_05:

He said, at your call.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh wow. Okay, I thought that was gonna go a different way. Well, I'm glad he said.

SPEAKER_05:

So I'm standing I'm standing out in the rain behind ambulance.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, jeez, I thought about it for a little bit. I thought, well, if they take her, they might be able to do something. But if they don't, she's gonna die in a hospital surrounded by people she don't know. So I got an ambulance and asked her what she wanted to do, and she said she wanted to go to bed. I mean, she already knew she was home still, she she just wanted to go back to bed.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So I told her to bring her back upstairs. So they brought her back upstairs. I brought her back upstairs. Uh it was about another hour, hour and a half. They were scheduled to pick her up at 11 and waiting on Roxanne to get here and all that, and moving her upstairs and downstairs.

SPEAKER_05:

It was it was about 2 30. And I was sitting in here with her.

SPEAKER_03:

The kids were playing in the other room. And after she had the stroke, I hung stuff on the wall right next to her bed. One was a picture of me with all of our kids. It was actually taken while she was in the hospital after she had the stroke, and me and all the kids went to church. And uh she was laying on the bed on her side looking at that picture. I was sitting beside the bed.

SPEAKER_05:

I could tell that her her breath was getting her her breath rate was getting slower and slower, and yeah. And it's like you could hear her sometimes it would be like a long pause and then a gasp for air.

unknown:

Yeah.

Matt:

And did you notice though, like the gasp wasn't stressful?

SPEAKER_05:

It wasn't forceful, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And and I I squeezed her hand and I was holding her hand. Squeezed her hand, she rolled over and she turned her head over and looked at me. And uh I told her that I loved her. I said what I would say to her. So I love you, Rachel Elizabeth. Always have. Always have, always will. And she she never called me Jeffrey. It was Jeff Casey. Jeff straight to my middle name. And she said, I love you, Jeff Casey forever and always. She turned back to look at the picture and closed her eyes.

SPEAKER_05:

I do take comfort knowing that the last thing she felt was me holding her hand.

Matt:

Oh, well, and see that the picture she looked at. Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, you know the last thing she saw was the people who loved her. And the last thing she heard was me telling her I love her.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's I here can't ask for more.

Matt:

I mean no, you can't. Um, you know, man, that is it's super that's powerful, man. And uh thank you. I two things. One, you can't you tell I think I'd heard the EMT thing one other time when we talked, and that's like a damn scene out of a movie, man. I mean, that is just so uh dramatic and not like an over dramatic way, just very dramatic. And I I can't even imagine because mine mine was a little different, and so uh taking the time moment talking to your loved one, asking Rachel kind of, you know, what does she want? And then even going through with it because you know what that means, right? When you're talking about a terminal diagnosis, there's no magic shot at the end of the scene where they we're gonna recover or anything.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I I I like I said, you know, there's times when I think about that conversation on April April 9th that we had in the hospital. There there's times in my life where I I replay that conversation and think of could I convince her of something else?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

But in the end, you know, like I said, I know that I did everything the way she wanted it.

Matt:

Yeah. And e you know and I'm glad you also taught you know the fact that holding her hand, seeing her family, being in her home is this is gonna sound really bad, but you and I know what I mean by this. Peacefully, right?

SPEAKER_05:

It there's there's there's ah man yeah because that was my biggest fear honestly my biggest fear was was a whole different series of events. I mean I know I knew what was coming. Yep and we had her hospital bed set up in my bedroom next to my bed. After the stroke she she never had that that powerful voice back but I had a speed out button icon on the top of her phone. So if she needed me in the middle of the night all she had to do is hit that button.

Matt:

Yeah and it would it would bring my phone wake me up yeah and and really there toward the end that was one of my biggest fears I'm gonna be grocery shopping or sleeping in the middle of the night when it happens and she's gonna be alone right it's not it's not a great situation but it's the best that it could have been yeah I yeah well and like it's um I the only way I can say it is until you've been in a room where that happens and you're emotionally involved in that in that situation um there's just so much tenderness and love. And again it's gonna sound weird if you haven't walked on this but there's a ton of peace in that moment. There really is and man I I don't know if you I'm I'm gonna probably need a double tonight. I'm doing water now so I can stay stay focused. But um man that is powerful man and um and I know more of your story than we're gonna talk about tonight but um I just you know proud I don't even know what to say I mean I'm I'm humbled and honored that you shared that with with me and and people are going to listen because I think that as scary as terminal diagnoses are there is whether the cancer journey is a year or five there's so much love in there that I think like you're saying kind of like the great shark right that you keep swimming um that's that's the only way we can do it is because we truly truly do love our people and well I mean you know I I don't know if I posted about this in the group yet or not but four months after my wife passed away it was August and both my boys were having a birthday and and a friend calls me up he's like you know I just wanted to see how you were doing the boys' first birthday without their mom and I'm like we're doing okay I said because you know the diagnosis and the prognosis was scary but even after that I think we were too optimistic to realize it I it's a slippery slope after she had the stroke yeah we knew that anything could have been the last time you know I wish I really wish I I did a video um a couple of days after my wife passed away and I had a script because it was the best way to update everybody who was following yeah and the back half is off script and I remember one of the things is I just I kept saying because it was just from the heart we just thought we had more time we just we thought we had one more one more whatever one more one more chemo treatment one more holiday one more and then you start to realize uh at least lucky enough for us our one more were all so beautiful and wonderful and I don't want to say untouched by cancer because that's not really fair but there were so many things that we were able to do in the amount of time that we had uh that actually I don't know if we would have done them different had we known it was the last one right like right but it you just look back and you're right man I mean and you you you uh you find everyone wants more time find beauty and tragedy sometimes that's say that again for me man say it again you find beauty and tragedy sometimes yeah yeah and I also think that like I mean I anyway I when you have those open and honest conversations with uh your wife or your partner or your spouse or whatever term you want to use uh and it's coming from love and you're dealing with a situation I think no matter what they wanted whether it was hey I want to go see the Aurora Boralis and I want to I want to pass away under them would have made it happen it would have seemed very difficult but what would right I want to go to bed. Marcy's was always always I just want to be home surrounded by the people I love that was the I mean okay I don't know how when we're gonna make that happen. We made it happen. I'm not this is the story is about me but like there's just so much in that man and I could feel I could see it in your face because I know people are going to listen to this and oh I'm sure they can hear my voice they can hear your voice brother trust me and I I it's it I man that is it's so beautiful and so powerful man and I I I don't know if there's the right words to say that I'm glad you had that because I know you know this from being in different groups of people I I actually used the word I'm blessed. Yeah right like think I mean how heartbroken but blessed absolutely how many people have you know my my our buddy Ben in our group right like I mean we have a couple of guys who it's tragic it's they're there on Tuesday gone on Wednesday morning and and just gone and none it just happened and so I want to say one's better than the other than the night that she had the stroke you know yeah it was it was it didn't like you know it wasn't boom stroke it started with a headache wow and you know we had all these kids here and she's like I'll just drive to the hospital and she took one of the older kids with her and I got a phone call from the hospital saying you need to come up to the hospital. Oh jeez because she was like I said she went in with a headache she called her on the college she told her she felt bad enough to go to the ER she went to the ER about I don't know 45 minutes to an hour later I get a call from a nurse at the ER telling me that she's sitting there with my older daughter and and that I need to come there because my wife was getting real lethargic and and and Deb said I believe she's having a stroke and luckily like I said she was at an emergency room when she had the stroke they were to Chattanooga and I had to you know follow behind but right yeah it's you know it's like I like there is there is some beauty in the in the chaos and the tragedy especially I think you know it's gonna be interesting to to hear other people share like in the I think it's because it comes with the view of love really I think it's because you know we're able to find that because because it was done or whatever's happening in that moment was done out of a space of love. Right like I think that's that's probably part of it I'd imagine um all right so um Rachel that that scene unfolds um and uh and uh so you've got um the two boys who are basically at this point what are they they would be a year and a half a year and a half and two and a half my goodness um so if you can whatever time frame makes sense for me I feel it was about six months where I was just in this weird grief concussion I can't really it's kind of foggy I can recall some stuff after that um what was like emotionally can you remember some stuff or your support network what were some things that um help you kind of kind of find bearings again because I mean that's a lot on your plate brother so yeah my greatest ally I believe my cousin passed away in 2012 and his wife and I are are like best friends you know she had uh say a five year jump on me but she she pretty much she was my sounding board she was you know she was my go-to person for what the hell is this that's a that's a whole that's a whole four pager of what the hell is this I'll tell you that my God sure and I mean you know I I I talk to her pretty much daily even all this time later and I have older kids and they have families but my daughter and my son at the time they they they were still barely teenagers you know 17 years old yeah so my daughter she was she was able to help out a lot real quick uh before how did as as young teenagers and and soon to be adults how did how did Rachel's uh death impact him with was it because I don't want to I don't want to spoil it too much because I also know there's there's more to their story than that but like how did they because I know when they're super young it's just it's just the way it is like with my daughter but with them how how did they handle Rachel's passing or how have they I could say even my kids probably learned one characteristic from me that I wish they hadn't and that's keeping their feelings pretty well sheltered from letting anybody else know what's going on.

SPEAKER_04:

Sure.

Matt:

Now of course you know since my wife passed away that went out the window like I can't watch you know that commercial that we were talking about that one man I don't that one I may try to push that one to get as much airtime as possible. I can't even remember I remembered that but when I went back and found it on YouTube again go look at the show notes at the last one maybe I'll post a leak somewhere but I I I fast forward through it and I still cry like I can't even and I'm pretty sure I cried when it first came up but keep yes so they kind of bottle not bottle I should say but keep their emotions a little maybe more inside. Yeah and bottled up is probably a good word because then you know stuff would come to a head and they would explode on me and I'd be like you know my my initial reaction would be to be upset or mad about their their behavior and then I would think to myself it's kind of well right and what I've come to realize too so many times when we're not mad at me right right when it the emotion is it's not really about the thing. It's coming I used to simplify it as saying it's the kick the dog syndrome right the guy goes to work his boss yells at him he comes home the first thing there is he kicks the dog right it's not the dog's fault the guy had a bad day right and and it's kind of like when people when emotions are up like that it's they're not really mad well they may be mad at you for doing something but they're not level 10 mad at you. It's all this other stuff that's under there right and so I yeah um uh well so okay so uh sorry I got a little a little off there so they they've got they've got their emotions brewing under the surface you've got a cousin to reach out to who's a little bit further down the grief journey which I which I think if people can there's gonna be several takeaways from talking about to you but I think one of that's a big one and Adam talked about counseling too maybe we can talk about that in a second but if this is part of why I started the group right this is why we have this group of men is because if you can find someone that's just a couple of steps down the road from you both is like oh my gosh they're still alive and B like they made it and B just kind of like you said the laundry list of what is this? What is what is this thing when I'm in the car for no apparent reason not there's no trigger there's nothing there was nothing the other day and I balled my eyes out and I'm like what's I text a longer friend than you know and I was like he goes yeah it happened I was like and it was literally just the absence of her it there was no trigger it was just like I'm alone and I'm sad and I miss my wife that was it there was no song there was no billboard there wasn't passing there was no it just was and it comes and goes right and he goes yeah it's gonna be a thing probably for a long long long time like you're gonna have these weeping moments so so you have the cousin the kids are doing their thing um plus I I I actually had a a good week to myself how so like people just absolutely no kids no no outside influence of any kind I drove from Georgia to California I went to Arizona to take care of some business that I had to take care of out there but I went on to California just to just to go I went stopped at the Grand Canyon I'd never been to the Grand Canyon how real quick how small did that make you feel yeah right I've seen I I've only seen it twice in my life and I remember the first time I was real little the next time I was an adult and I go like well I don't matter much it makes you feel I came back on Route 66 drove through through Nashville Memphis good for you so we'll who um how soon was that after uh Rachel died that was the first week in May so it was two weeks later not even two weeks after she packs away good well I don't know did you know you needed that no but I I like I said I know I had things to take care of in Arizona and people are like why don't you just fly out it'll be so much quicker and I'm like I I think I need this time for myself for recognizing that man that's and I don't know there's something about a car man there's something about it's safe you're moving so even if you're doing an ugly cry people can't see it for very long like you're gonna come and go right like yeah there's something about cars the radio has way with no one was on your mind too doesn't it oh man I again this one there was a song that came on totally different well this is a great topic for later but like there was a song that came on I don't know it was oh gosh two oh maybe it was six months because the weather was changing so maybe it was like six months after March passed and I'd never heard the song before ever in the history of forever and it it used some phrases that we used to use and whatever and anyway I'm just bawling my eyes out and so I text one of my widow friends and they're like I'm going to his concert next weekend I'm like how am I just now hearing about this guy after everything I've been through and he's quite literally using one of the phrases we use all the time but anyway and I'm like what are the odds and I'm crying anyway so I'm driving I'm driving back from from Arizona and I'm coming through Arkansas okay and I see the sign up ahead that says you know Little Rock so many miles up the road well Colin Ray comes on the radio Little Rock I'm like I know this song but I don't remember what the hell the song said until it it plays and it's like you know without me baby I'm not or without you baby I'm not me I'm like it's it's amazing how many songs when you listen to them in grief completely change. Oh yeah I have I've I have my Spotify I actually have a folder that says I think it says match cry list I'm sure if I ever go to a party I'm like yeah whatever it's like Matt's cry list I should probably remade listeners and my tribe of allies want to take just a moment to remind you how you can find the podcast we are on all platforms we're on Apple Podcast we're on Spotify we're on Google Podcasts Amazon Music Audible and all the others if you are listening on Apple Podcast please give us a feedback and give a review it helps the podcast be found. If you're looking to find more solo dad content we are on Instagram TikTok and Twitter at SoloDad Podcast. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the show or if you just want to email us with thoughts or topics you'd like to hear us talk about good old fashioned email for us is SoloDadpodcast at gmail dot com thank you again for your support and listening and we hope you find it helpful back to the conversation you took the road trip you took hundred miles how many forty five hundred miles round trip exactly right um took the road trip when you came back did you did you feel like because I know I think what is it I think who sits in shiv someone sits in shivis jewish tradition is to sit in mourning for like some days and so like uh the Judeo-Christian Americans aside just not do a great job with grief like they're like caskets in the ground you're done you're like uh really that's that's it that's all you're giving me you're giving me what one day in a hoagie sandwich at a at a thing that loot you know get over the loss of someone significant in my life um so you took the week when you came back did you did you feel like you were more I don't want to say stable or did you feel like you had processed a chunk of loss or how did you feel like when you came back home because I'm also sure you missed the little dudes and stuff too when I when I pulled up and opened the door and the kids come running out.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah it was like you know the the emptiness and loneliness that I felt on that 4500 mile trip it kind of washed away and and then it was I wouldn't say let's get back to normal but it was go forward.

Matt:

No I'm glad you said that 'cause I have notes about that. Yeah. Say that again. Sorry I think I over I spoke over you.

SPEAKER_05:

It was it was not about you know getting back to normal. It was just about go forward.

Matt:

Yeah. You you know mine One of the things I also realized too, and it took a little while for me, I think just because of the craziness of the timing and and some other stuff. I finally just kind of was like and who what the hell is normal? We say this all the time, but like it's now time to like go forward, get busy with like getting living again, whatever the hell that means to each individual, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, ironically, that's one of my favorite movie phrases show like redemption. Get busy living or get busy living.

Matt:

Get busy dying, man. It's a great, it's a great I'm glad nice, good catch. So, but that's one of the ones, and like you know, dying really isn't an well, I guess you know, dying isn't an option for me, at least. I can't speak for anybody else, but like I'm like, it's whatever living is, I I can't, I'm not gonna there's no prescription for it. I can't write you out directions on what you're what living for you is gonna look like versus living for me or or our friend Ken or Ben or anyone else in the group. Like, living is different, but like our person isn't coming back, so now we have to figure out what living's gonna be like without them, right? And it and I think going forward is a great because staying staying in the same spot isn't gonna be any good either, right? Especially if you got littles, you can't just park yourself on the nearest bar store.

SPEAKER_05:

Even four and a half years later, I'm sure there are people who will look at me and think that I'm still standing still.

Matt:

Oh, I don't know about that, buddy, but maybe okay.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm not doing like things that I used to do. Well, you're no longer the same person, and that's what I try to explain to them. You know, where the time the time that I spent doing this or that is now preoccupied by something else.

Matt:

Well, I know what you're doing, you're making amazing YouTube videos. I've seen them.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that's that's very therapeutic for me as well.

Matt:

I can imagine they're powerful, man. They're good stuff.

SPEAKER_05:

So I have a scale, not a scale, but a grading system for for my videos. If I can make at least one person cry, it was worth the time I put into it.

Matt:

And Jeff's hobby is to make people cry now, everybody. That's his hobby. He's to try to make people.

SPEAKER_05:

I have to openly admit that there's some of them that never made it to uh upload before I knew they were good.

Matt:

Oh, I bet. Oh, I absolutely, absolutely. There's well, I mean, again, again, I think I'm repeating again, when it comes from the heart, there's something authentic about it, something that will touch somebody or somebody's that they just gravitate towards it, right? It's just because it's there's no fluff in it. That like there's no alternative motive beyond it's healing for me. I'm gonna share it with honesty, and hopefully it touches you and it heals you as well. Like that's that's really it's that's kind of an antithesis behind a lot of this group and the podcast. And it's just like that's just what I feel it's important, especially for us guys, to be able to express ourselves and do that sort of stuff. And um, I've seen your videos and they are good, man. They are good. Um, okay, so you come back, the boys a little bit, you know, whatever. Get get a new bearing or whatever. Uh it's you know, you're probably now you're inside of, we'll go inside of a month after Rachel passes. What is your what is your kind of support network work look like at the time? Um, like with help and whatever, because you got it, you got quite literally a full house. Um, so what does that look like for you early on?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, mostly like I said, mostly it was my my my kids that were my biggest help.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh the nurse that actually had called me from the ER the night Rachel had a stroke, she had joined uh a meal train to cook meals for my family while Rachel was sick. And even after Rachel passed away, she continued to bring meals.

Matt:

I don't know about you. Uh was there any special guests at Rachel's uh services?

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, there was, you know, I wouldn't say special guests, but I guess I was gonna I was trying to I was trying to lead you down.

Matt:

Did anyone from the medical community show up?

SPEAKER_05:

There was there was a couple of her nurses and some of the people from her her chemo family, as she called them.

Matt:

You you know that's not normal, right? That's that it speaks to how your person was. That's not normal. So Marcy, uh, we had there's some people from her medical logo team or whatever. And since I'd never had a wife die from cancer before, I was like, of course. And then I like shared this someplace, someplace else one time just in passing. And I think it was actually another, and the oncologist was like, That's that no, that's not normal. I was like, really? And they're like, No, because a lot of their patients aren't gonna make it, they can't go to every single funeral. And I was like, Oh, so same thing with there, it speaks to the how your wife touched people's lives. I don't know if anyone told you that, but it's it's it speaks volumes, it does, it really does.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I mean it Rachel, you know, not to give away too much about everything else, but Rachel and I actually met in Ohio. We're both from Ohio. We got married in Arizona when we lived in Arizona and she passed away here. And when we moved here, she didn't know a lot of people. So when she was diagnosed with cancer and started her chemo treatment, that's where her friends from this area came from. But she never referred to him as as her friends, it was her chemo family. So yeah, but you know, I would have been more surprised if none of them showed up.

Matt:

Well, no, that's that's what I'm saying, but it's just it speaks to how she touched other people's lives. Because believe it or not, there are people who go through this journey and and they uh and they're they just for whatever reason, they're not their their journey doesn't touch as many, which is that's not that's not it's just interesting because you you hopefully only have to do this once in your life, and uh and it's just you can't know that it that's I had some other things happen too um that were totally off the norm, which was interesting to find out after the fact. Um, okay, so you got the kids, you got the littles. When did you head back to work, ballpark?

SPEAKER_05:

Uh I think I went back to work in September.

Matt:

Okay, so it took some time.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, it was like four or five months after I just passed away.

Matt:

Yeah. Did you um during that time did you did you have any counselors?

SPEAKER_03:

Did you I felt like, you know my my my grieving was it began when she was diagnosed and and they gave us the prognosis.

Matt:

We we we uh we affectionately called that pre-grief. We were like anticipatory grief.

SPEAKER_05:

Right, and then it was amplified after she had the stroke.

Matt:

Of course. Because now it's it's it's in your face, it's it's happening.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, so when she when she when she passed away, it was like I had already built up such a wall against anything.

SPEAKER_03:

And in my mind, I didn't need any kind of counseling.

SPEAKER_05:

Like I said, hospice they they continued every month. They would come on and ask if you know the kids wanted to talk to the counselor or chaplain or anything.

SPEAKER_03:

I kept telling it was not until after I'd been back to work for maybe five or six months and I realized that I was still on my three-day schedule, but I was only working one or two days a week. I told my boss, I said, you know, I said I'm leaving right now. I have an appointment with a counselor. I'll see you next week.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And she was like, Good luck.

SPEAKER_05:

Thank you.

Matt:

So they they they could uh well if you're only yeah, if you're working less than what you're supposed to, they could they could see it, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I would say you know, working three days a week and and only showing up one or two of those days a week.

SPEAKER_00:

A little bit of a red flag.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, it was it was probably hard on them, and I never realized it at the time because I wasn't worried about what was hard on anybody else.

SPEAKER_00:

No, you had you had enough crap to deal with.

SPEAKER_05:

And and I told people, I'm like, you know, I'm sure you've heard it said before. I've never read on a tombstone. I wish I'd spent more time at work.

SPEAKER_04:

It's true.

SPEAKER_05:

And I told him, I said, you know, when you when your spouse dies, you reprioritize a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

I said, and if things are taken care of at home, I'm not living to work, I'm just working to live.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And if I don't have to be at work, I'm not gonna be at work.

Matt:

Yeah, it does it really, it really if I think if people are honest with them when you're talking about this sort of law with themselves, that I think if if you're honest with it and you have the ability, whether it's time or emotional strength or whatever, to take the time because it's it's gonna shuffle the deck of your life, like uh unlike anything else I can imagine. For sure.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, because I I had a supervisor position at work, and when I came back to work, my my protege had assumed my position because I'd been out of work for 15 months.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And the day I come back to work, he's like, Let's go talk to Jody and get your job back. I'm like, Hell no.

Matt:

You're like, you do the job, I'll do this. So, so how what did the what did the counseling look and feel like for you? So you're almost you're almost about a year, probably nine months out at this point, right?

SPEAKER_05:

I was almost exactly a year when I finally got to talk to a counselor.

Matt:

And what what that first one what was the first one?

SPEAKER_05:

It was a guy, and and he made the biggest mistakes. Oh boy, and you know, I would tell him something and he'd be like, Oh, I know how you feel. And I'm like, No, you don't.

Matt:

Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless he really did, but he didn't.

SPEAKER_05:

And when you tell a count, I you know, I told him straight to his face. I said, Perhaps you went through a similar situation and you know how you felt, but you don't know how I feel.

SPEAKER_00:

That's very true.

SPEAKER_05:

And I said, I you know, I told him straight up, and uh, one time he told me, he's like, It's okay, because I know how you feel. And I was like, I wish you'd kill me because I don't know how I feel.

Matt:

Right? It's this weird feeling, and I can't put my finger finger on it. So that one didn't go so well.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that one didn't go so well. So I I thought, well, this ain't for me. So I gave it up.

Matt:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

And and went about doing my thing, you know.

Matt:

And we say doing your thing. With do were you doing stuff that now when you look at it now, four years, was it healing?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, I think for me, and and it it's probably what helped me get through the stroke and the and everything else, is for me, the most therapeutic thing I can do is to help other people. And that's why I love your your your podcast and your group so much. Is if I can help somebody, like I said, I feel that helps me.

Matt:

Hey, I I I this is probably gonna be in a two-parter, which I'm totally fine with. Uh, the already the number of things you've shared with me to get on Amazon, you yeah, it's paid for itself. Jeff has, by the way, I'll try to put some drops on them. Jess has some great stuff that a little greavy, the other thing from teddy bears that hold uh messages from loved ones to ornaments to a whole bunch of other fun stuff. So we'll put those in the show notes too. But um, so helping others, which you know what, there is something to that. There's also something not in a weird way. I remember talking to my therapist where it was like it's something that you feel like you can control a bit when so much of your life, and not in a nice like some weird, it's just you can't you couldn't control death. We we couldn't control what happened. So we want to be able to like get our the reins back on life because it felt like we had it, but we really didn't, right? Like we're going to chemo, we're doing the stuff. Yeah, but cancer was gonna do the shitty thing it was gonna do.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, actually, that's one of the things that my second counselor told me is that's one of the reasons that I prefer to homeschool my kids, is because it's uh it's a sense of something that as you said, I can rein in. I can I can but she said that it felt like if if I felt that I had the power over something, that that would be therapeutic for me as well. And and I told her, I said it part of it is not so much the the control of it, but it's the shielding of my kids that that I chose to homeschool them.

Matt:

I I a thousand percent. There's no well, I I went through a very similar process of whether or not to put Blair into pre-K, right? Like I I don't know if I shared about, but I was like, because Ben warned me, he goes, Listen, due to COVID and due to my situation, like there wasn't a lot of public interface, right? Like just I moved to a new community, it was just the timing, it was all a whole thing. And so then I'm like, and he warned me, he goes, You put her in a public space, the topic of moms is gonna come up. Where in our house, I I controlled the mom conversation, right? Because it was just me and her. She goes in a pre-K, someone's gonna ask her about her mommy, so and now she's in the real world. I was like, Oh, and then I started to realize that she didn't know how to share her toys and she needed to play with other kids. So but I have two, so yeah, right, but still, like it's that, and there's not there's not a bad thing to shield them because their pain is our pain.

SPEAKER_05:

We have they've already been through so much, right?

Matt:

And and and and I know there's more to your decision behind just the the the loss and stuff because you shared it out with me, but like and and and there is and my my counselor says the same thing about like we've already had one of the greatest strategies that can happen in someone's life happen, so therefore, psychologically, we are mitigating other tragedies. Like, as insane as this sounds, I won't let other people like let my kid take a ride in their car because my mind goes to if something happens, not like I can stop a semi from hitting my van or whatever, but like I just can't allow it, right? Like psychologically, I know rationally shit's gonna happen. She's gonna fall off playgrounds whether I'm there or not. She's gonna bump her head whether I'm there or not. I have an older kid, I know things happen, but it's psychologically because we hurt, we've hurt so bad. We do an extra layer of bubble wrap, and it's totally healthy and normal, right? And then eventually we start to go, like, okay, we can take another layer off. And that doesn't have to do with let them go to homeschool or regular school. That can do everything from like, okay, I can go away for a night when we're talking early grief, right? Like, I mean, you took the week trip, but like it probably took you a while um to take another trip. Like, I know I realized it had been like a year or something since I'd been away from Blair, right? And so, because we can take a breather again, right? We we I don't want to say trust people, but like you're like, okay, I can do this and they can do this. So I think it's totally rational. And I think you're yeah, I uh both of our therapists are saying the same thing. It's like your life got so out of control, you gotta have some things that you can do. And good for you for part of it also, like when you're saying helping others, did you volunteer your time, or is this stuff like with the videos you do for folks?

SPEAKER_05:

Or the videos I do and and and like I told you, man, it's it's not just the solo dead podcasting group that I that I do video calls with. I'm I'm on my computer a lot through the week. And I had you know, not just doing the the video calls, but commenting on people's posts and and and having conversations like you and I have conversations. Chat messages and and text messages and phone calls. I don't look at uh I don't look at myself as being like a great sage or great nobody on on a lot of topics. I know a little bit about a lot of stuff, but I feel that I'm uh I can relate with people. And and that's what you know, because I think I mentioned it before when I was younger, I did drugs.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_05:

And when I went to work back in 2014, a guy came to work there who was actually a member of what's called drug court, where he had he was facing drug charges, but he could go through a program instead.

SPEAKER_03:

And if he completed his program, he wouldn't have to serve no time in jail.

SPEAKER_05:

And he's uh he's appointed, you know, counselors and everything like that, but he would come in and talk to me. Now, having been there myself, I knew what to say, how to say it, you know. And and I mean he stood up at his drug park graduation and called me out. He said, This man right here is more like a brother to me, and he helped me more than any counselor in this program ever has.

Matt:

Yeah. There's there's some there's just there's certain things in life that if you haven't experienced it uh firsthand, uh you can you can still help people, but there's just a nuance to it. Like kind of with grief. Like I I struggle to find words for people who've lost a child because I I I can't imagine what any of that's like. Um but I did lose a dad when I was young, and unfortunately I lost my spouse when I was too young anyway. And I can because I've walked it, we can there's a nuance there. You can read it in a book in a psychologist or whatever and talk about the impacts that have in your life and all that, but like we know it. We lived and and for better or worse, we're still here on the other side of it. So we're like, well, I can tell you some things, maybe they'll help you, but I can I can tell you what's not gonna help help you. Eating pizza every day. I tried that for like a week straight. Mess me up, don't do that, right? Like we can give real advice about and how it felt. And when I do, and I appreciate what you said too. Like, I may not know how you feel, but I know how it made me feel. So maybe me sharing that will help you identify what it's making you feel, whether it's angry, mad, sad, confused, whatever. So um, well, man, I was I was accused of that too.

SPEAKER_05:

Of what not not feeling sad, just feeling angry. Oh, well, that's I mean and I told him that that sometimes sadness presents itself as anger.

Matt:

Absolutely. Well, and then there's this one of like, you know, I get real, there's there's I there's two new emotions I've had since Marcy died, which one is uh sad mad, right? I'm mad because I'm sad, and I'm sad because I'm mad, like both. And the other one is happy sad, right? Where like Blair takes Blair does something, or my daughter does something. I'm like, oh, that's awesome, I'm super happy. And then in the exact same moment, I think you and I talked about this. It's actually post. There's a there's a delay, and then I go to sadness, yeah. Delayed sadness, where I'm like, Oh, she didn't get to see her, whatever. Tie her shoe, whatever, whatever the thing is.

SPEAKER_05:

Lucas Lucas is good at at bringing that up a lot.

Matt:

Delayed sadness, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh boy, my Lucas. He's like like like I said, he was only two when his mom passed away, and and and I told him, you know, when I potty training, when I was potty training him, like, dude, you did such an awesome job.

SPEAKER_03:

I said it's been like a whole week, and he's like, Yeah, but he said, he said, yeah, but mom didn't see me peeing the potty.

Matt:

How do they know how to do that? How do they know how to kick us right in the emotional nuts? Like, I want to know.

SPEAKER_05:

My kids are good at that.

Matt:

Mine, mine won't seem to do it, and again, I don't want to get too I want to come back to more of your stuff because it's way more about you. Mine seems to do it. But late at night, like right as we're drifting off to sleep, she'll say something about like, I miss mama. And I'm like, really? 8 15 at night? This is what we're gonna do. Like, I'm tapped, kid. Like, I can't handle this conversation right now.

SPEAKER_05:

Um, I mean, it's it's you know, like, I mean, Lucas will let people know, too. Like you were talking about Blair. I mean, Lucas will let people know, and and I forget what the conversation was about, but then they turned to Lucas and said, I'm sorry, I forgot you don't have a mom. He said, I got a mom. She's dead. He said, if I didn't have a mom, how would I be here? Like, that's my boy.

Matt:

It's just like it's like cold water with a I don't know, something like they just know how to do like I again. The one I shared was right, we're walking down the dentist thing, and she just looks at the x-ray technician is like, do, do, do, do. It's like 8:15 in the morning. My mom died. The x-ray technique, no, good morning. No, how's your coffee? Just boom. The lady's like, I know, sweetie, you're really brave, or something like that. Anyway, um, okay, so you're helping people, you go through a couple of counselors, and you know, for folks who listen in, like, there are good and bad everything in life. There are good contractors, there's bad contractors, there's good tile layers, but there's good, there's good counselors and therapists, there's bad counselors and therapists. So all I can say, and I think you kind of touched on it, if you have a feeling that you're not getting whatever it is you need out of it, you may have to try another one. It may take you a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_05:

That's what I told that's what I told my buddy at drug court. I was like, you know, if this counselor is not working for you, tell somebody. Tell them this guy's not working for me, he's not making things better, he's he's actually making them worse.

Matt:

Right. And the thing is, is just because they don't work for you doesn't mean they may not work. It could be their delivery, it could be every it could be just the space we're in at the time and our head frame.

SPEAKER_05:

I said maybe he just don't like you.

Matt:

Great, great. Maybe you remind him of someone he got, you know, got a wedgie from when he was in high school and he just doesn't like you. So keep that in mind for folks listening. If you've if you think, and we can't, I can't prescribe it, neither could Jeff. Like, you need to know what you're getting out of it. I am lucky enough to have found one that I am getting exactly what I need out of it, which is uh someone to talk to, someone to give me a little bit of honest feedback, and then kind of peel some layers back.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, my biggest thing, my biggest thing with the first one was he wasn't telling me anything I didn't already know.

Matt:

Ah, that's another good, that's another good one. That if you're an accounselor and they're just repeating back stuff when you and all you're doing is shaking your head like you and I are doing right now, we're gonna like, so you're not I'm not getting any aha moments out of this. We're you know, gonna do it where it's like, you know, all of a sudden the counselor busts out like and you weren't hugged enough as a child, and you're like, holy cow, I wasn't. Let me figure that right. Like it's like an earth-shattering moment. That should be some stuff you're getting out of a counselor for sure.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, see, then my second counselor, she was actually a widow.

Matt:

Ah.

SPEAKER_05:

So if she were to tell me, I know what you're going through, I would believe her.

Matt:

Or I know how that makes you feel because she's she's been down that road, right? Can't necessarily feel your feelings.

SPEAKER_05:

She wouldn't try to dictate how my life should be. She would tell me what she went through and how she dealt with it and what worked for her and what didn't. And and that's all I try to do now is is I try to be that person. I'm not gonna tell you, hey, you need to do this, man, to make your life better. I'm gonna be like, man, I did this and this don't work, man.

Matt:

Well, another thing I think I that you're not giving yourself credit for either, that I think you're skimming over, which is a big thing that I've learned from like following other grief uh folks and just writers and authors and things like that, which is you give people space to just be in their grief with them, whether it's doing a video or like sharing songs with people, like I I think you're skipping over. That's one of the things how you help people is you also recognize like, yeah, I can sit right next to you and let you feel sad.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and and that's that's that's one of people's that's one of people's biggest problems, is they always feel that they have to say something.

Matt:

You don't sometimes all you gotta do is just be there, be there and acknowledge that it's a shitty situation and it happened, and I'm the right I'm I'm just here is basically. Um, okay, so we're definitely getting run into part of which I'm totally fine with. So you you're we'll just kind of go wherever you want to go from here. So you've had a couple of counselors, you went back to work, the boys and your kids are kind of churning along. So now you're four, like I think you're four. Actually, so when was when sorry, remind me, Rachel passed four and a half years.

SPEAKER_05:

April, April 2017.

Matt:

2017. So you're four and a half years out. Um what like I think one of the questions I want to make sure I ask is if you could uh go back we and you're doing it when you go to somebody who's brand new to grief, is there is there anything specific that you I think we kind of touched on it just a second ago. Is there anything specific that you tell them? Like you were kind of like you wish someone would have told you. Like, let me give you an example. My one of my things I tell people is like take all the help, take it all, because in six, nine, twelve months from now, it's not gonna be there. If someone wants to come over and sort socks for you, let them. I mean, whatever you're comfortable with, right? But like take all the help because life goes back to normal for so many people. And so if you're comfortable with it emotionally and everything, but like take the help. Like, I there's so many things I should have like not done myself. Like, I shouldn't have waited to sort pictures, I should have just taken when people offered to do it. I should have just done it, even though I think in the emotional space I it wouldn't have gone well, but that's the caveat is have to be emotionally okay with it. So, is there anything like you kind of tell folks? Not that I want to say everyone's the same, but if you went back and gave advice to yourself, I guess in the first year, is there anything I would I would definitely say that that's a big one because you know, when you're a man, help is a four-letter word. It sure is. Damn it.

SPEAKER_05:

And and it takes away, I don't I don't know. As a man, I guess it takes away some of that masculinity when you when you ask for help or even accept help when it's offered. But but I was like, yeah, that's that's actually a real good one.

SPEAKER_03:

Accept the help. Um don't try. That's what I was telling people. Don't try to get back to normal because that normal that you I with I with you there is no going back.

SPEAKER_05:

And you know, that's two of the biggest things right there is like you said, because three, six months down the road, everybody else has gone on with their lives and they they expect you to as well.

Matt:

Yeah, and and I I know some people get and I've seen plenty of posts in different groups that you and I are part of, and I and I know sometimes people get real angry about it, which is totally justified, but no one's doing it maliciously, right? Like our friends aren't going home nine months after our people died and going, like, you know, we're just gonna not help them anymore. No, they've got kids and they've got like life, their their spouse didn't die, like their life is churning back, they're still missing a friend or whatever, but it's just not the same, right? So I try to give my network of folks some grace when I go, like, what do you mean they're planning a ski trip? How could how dare they do that? And I go, like, well, wait a minute. Yeah, of course they plan a ski trip. It's been a year and a half, like it's okay, right? Like, it's okay for them to have normal again, yeah, normal ish stuff. Um, so uh the help, and I I like how you put it, I wrote it down. Don't try to get back to normal because that no your normal is gone.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and another thing is is emotions.

SPEAKER_03:

Don't don't try to bottle them up. If you're mad, be mad. If you're sad, be sad.

SPEAKER_05:

And and above all else, when it comes to emotions, if something happens and it brings you joy, don't deny that.

Matt:

Oh man, that's powerful. That's taken me a long time to be okay with. And also, don't you find too that probably a little more earlier on, there was a blend. Like there, you could find happiness or joy, but you'd be a little guilty about it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and and and like I said, do you honestly think that that your your spouse, your I know my wife would not want me to stay sad. And if I found something, even if it's minuscule, even if it's my new, if it brings me joy, run with it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Enjoy it. I mean, I enjoy whatever moments I can because hell, tomorrow could be my day.

Matt:

I don't know. Well, that's the other rude awakening we get. That causes me uh a lot of anxiety where I go like at nights where I go, like, well, what if I don't wake up, or what if I don't? It's like, oh man, you know, it's it's tough. And and you know, I'm glad you said that about the the both the emotions and the joy because I think whether the motivation is like our spouses would want us to be happy, or that uh we now have been introduced that life is much more fleeting than we may have once thought or really know now, like it's been really put upon us, uh, and that we can't like we really, really can't walk through life being responsible for other little people being miserable all the time. That's just not that's just not gonna work out well.

SPEAKER_05:

And and I I I was I was talking to someone in one of the widow groups, and I told her, I said, I said, right now, because she was fresh, I mean she was new like six weeks.

SPEAKER_03:

And and I told her, I said, I said, you know, don't be afraid, don't fight it when it happens. I said, but your kid's gonna do something, stupid, silly, you're gonna smile, you're gonna laugh.

SPEAKER_05:

Don't feel bad about that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

That's the biggest problem is feeling guilt about joy.

Matt:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

That I think a lot of people go through. I get myself for a while.

Matt:

I agree. I did too. And and I still, and there's still like I know we talk about the happy sad, and I do like how you put it, it's actually post-review. It's a it's not instantaneous. And you said that in a group chat that we were doing, and I'm glad you because I realized I'm like, yeah, he's right. It's actually not instantaneous, it really is after the fact when I replay that memory in my head, and then I get sad right of the absent. But in the moment, being present in the moment, I'm not I am truly happy that Blair's tying your shoes or whatever. Anything anything else, kind of that you would give your your one-year self, any other sort of uh advice you would go give yourself if you could, not that we would listen necessarily, but I I think one of the big things too is is people try to put a time limit on things.

unknown:

Oh, that's another good one.

SPEAKER_05:

And and whether it's other people putting the expectation on you or even you putting the expectation on yourself, you can't put a time limit on things, especially grief.

SPEAKER_03:

And there's gonna be days when you're like, I got this, and then it's gonna kick your ass.

Matt:

And then the others day, I don't know about you, I'm sure you've had them happen, hopefully less often than than they used to be. But I do recall waking up sometimes going, like, I don't have a flying clue what I'm doing. Oh, this just I did a bunch of uh voice memos early on just on my phone, the little like it comes with the Apple phone. I was doing them, it'd be random stuff. Like, and it was like uh I think I tied them all like missing Marcy, and it'd just be these moments, right? And I'm like, okay, quick, record this. And I was going through like cleaning up my digital stuff, and there was one where I oh, it was me recording blank for a second. I recorded, I left the house for the first time with Blair, and I forgot to bring diapers. And I'm you could hear that I'm crying because like my wife would have reminded me or something. But there's an example of like I probably had like eight days where I hadn't messed anything up, and then I leave the house within I don't even know what the context was, but I was like, I left the house without diapers. Like, I'm like, Yep, I don't know what I was doing, and then we're fine, but that's a good point. I like, I like uh that is another good one where yeah it'll come out of nowhere and drop cake. It will, and and it's just and I think it's that reminder of the absence, right? Of whatever that is. The time limit thing, too. I think people somehow I agree with me or not, it seems to be that the general population starts a countdown after a year, right? Like they kind of give you a year.

SPEAKER_05:

I'd say probably for a year, yeah. And then they go, like, what's I start the countdown at six months, and then if it gets to a year, you're in overtime.

Matt:

That's I that's probably a fair assessment because I feel like you get through the year firsts, right? Calendar-wise, but then the problem is that's all just to me, that's like what you expect me to know how to curveball the after I've seen it one time. Like, I I don't think that's right. Like, and I think everyone's different because it it depends on where you are in life, what else you have going on. Like, there you we've talked, I know we've talked in the in the groups before about dating and whatever, but like no one should go around because you don't know what else, what other things are percolating with them and what other things are going on with them. Just because someone's on a date six months out doesn't mean every single night they're not missing the loss of their person, right? Like, and if someone waits six years to go on a date, it doesn't mean that they weren't that they weren't missing that they that they somehow were delaying it, it's just it depends on the person and are they doing it in a healthy way? And I I'm glad you put to the time limits because I definitely had this weird notion of where I would be a year plus out and a year plus out hit, and I was like, Yep, not even close, which was fine. But I was like, Whoopsie, and and that's it.

SPEAKER_05:

It's like I said, most of the time it's not the expectations of society, it's the expectations we put on ourselves.

Matt:

Um, those are good ones, man. I had I had no time limits, don't try to get back to normal, uh embrace the joy and accept the help. I think those are all really good. Do you have do you have anything else? You tell you.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, another thing is accept the compliments. A lot of people that's hard. That's hard. No, I'm not doing a good job. You you didn't why do we, Jeff?

Matt:

Why do we do that, man? Like, I do that all the time when someone's like, Oh, you're doing such a great job. And I go, like, look at the laundry, or actually, no one can see this because it's the audio right now, but we're on Zoom. You should see the shit show that's on the floor of my office right now. Like, it's so bad. So, why do we why do we do that when someone do you have any like I agree with you? We do, I would I just the minute someone gives me a compliment about how I'm doing with my situation, I don't tell them this, but in my head I go, here's the 37 things I've done wrong.

SPEAKER_05:

It's so weird because like if you go to work and your boss says, Hey man, you did a good job on this presentation, you're like, damn right I did, but but but when it's about your personal life, it you you feel like I maybe it's me personally, but I feel like my kids deserve more.

Matt:

That's definitely part of it. I yeah, there's there's just something I feel like I rather than looking at the shots we've made, I replay all the shots I've missed. It's bizarre, it's so bizarre, and then it just does this feedback loop of somehow like we're not doing enough, right? Like it's weird because then we keep telling ourselves, well, I didn't do this and I didn't do that, but someone else is trying to tell us who cares about us or sees us or acknowledges us. You know, I I'm I'm trying to do a better job of accepting when people say, like, wow, you're doing an amazing job. And I try to let it get past my checklist of things I don't do well. I don't know why it is we do that.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, you know, you've heard it a million times in your life, I'm sure you're your own worst critic.

SPEAKER_00:

It's true, it is true.

SPEAKER_05:

And that's something that it took me a long time to start accepting was the the compliments.

Matt:

Well, I I've already given you a couple, I mean, but I I I've already given you a couple, but I will also say again, teasing something more to come later with a follow-up conversation with Jeff is like I your story blows my mind, and I I have so much respect for you and so much adoration for what you did previous to meeting you in my group. Now that you're in not my group, our solo dad group, that it's still just I am just awed by what you have done and who you are and what you continue to do, man. It just impresses the hell out of me. So there's a compliment. Go ahead and take it.

SPEAKER_05:

Thank you, sir. I don't know, I'm not gonna call you a liar. I'm gonna say that.

Matt:

And you're handsome. There we go. Me and you both, buddy. It's the it's the winter coat. We're we're putting it on. Um, so I think those are all the really, really good things. Um, it was there kind of on the same kind of help thing. Was there anything that you either read or um like books that either helped or anybody that you I use the word follow on social media because I think different people speak to people differently? And I found some really good, great grief books and lost books that I share with people. I prefer a certain guy named David Kessler, like how he handles things. Some people don't like him at all, and that's fine. But did you find anybody either like on social media or accounts or books or things like that? Besides these, I know we're you and I are a bunch of different widow groups, besides those, because I think group stuff is really important as well.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, as far as like groups, I I'm I'm a member of several.

Matt:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

And and I'm an active participant in several.

Matt:

I mean, that's how you found that's how that's how we found each other, absolutely, brother.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh, as far as reading and and and following anybody on on I'd say nobody in particular.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

I I know that when hospice was was injecting themselves into my life, so to speak, they brought out or they mailed me uh literature for the kids about the the loss of a parent and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03:

Somebody had me read what was it, the invisible string.

Matt:

Yep, that's a popular one. Did you ever read did you ever read Ida Ida about Ida always be there? About the polar bear?

SPEAKER_05:

It's possible.

Matt:

I mean that one makes me ball every time.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh uh I'd say more more than books and easier to share with my kids are are movies. Movies that that that depict what we're going through, which makes them understand it a little better.

Matt:

What are something coming to the top of mind real quick?

SPEAKER_05:

Um, I mean, you know, we go with the classic and say Lion King because you know the but there's there's a movie that is on Netflix or Disney Plus, but it's called uh Over the Moon. I don't know that one we watched it together because uh it's a it's about a uh a dad and his daughter and her her mom passes away. Okay, and her mom used to always write her story about the princess on the girl when her mom passes away, she wants to build a rocket in front of the money. Makes sense to me.

Matt:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05:

And the thing of it is you come to find out is the dad has a girlfriend and uh he don't accept that and she wants to. Mom back, so she wants to go to the moon.

Matt:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05:

So that's that's a pretty good movie.

Matt:

Did you watch? I haven't watched one because I've been told to be careful with it. There's the one with the two guys, it's a magic one with like trolls, and then oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

What was that called? We did watch it.

Matt:

I heard that one was rough. And then Soul, which is kind of the newer Pixar one.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, we had watched. They may have watched.

Matt:

So uh oh wow, that does. Um I just pulled up, yeah, it's Netflix. I'll I'll post a link to it. Over the moon.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that's that's about the kid, the kid dealing with the last of the mods.

Matt:

Yeah, and it's fairly it's fairly recent. Moving on. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. That one looks rough. There's so well, okay. So Over the Moon, uh uh Lion King is a classic. Any any others that that help you have those conversations with the kiddos? Or I mean it's literally quite literally, it's every single Disney movie, but there was one that was very helpful to me. Oh, okay. What was that one?

SPEAKER_05:

And it's the shack.

Matt:

Why? That's an older one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05:

It's it's been out for a few years. I feel like I okay, the shack. It's not about it's not about losing your spouse.

SPEAKER_03:

His daughter turns up missing. Oh and he goes to this shack where he meets God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, basically. And and there's one part in the book that just made the entire read for me that was so worth it.

Matt:

Okay. Yeah, it's not that old. It's uh 2017. Another one gets good reviews. Okay, I'll have to put that one in the links too. And that's a book too, though, if you want to read it, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, the book's better than the movie.

Matt:

Usually okay, but the book was good.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay, yeah, and there's one line in the book that that made the whole read worth it for me because you know, when you watch someone you love slowly deteriorate and pass away, you wonder if there's anything you could have done.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

And in this book, like I say, his daughter was kidnapped and murdered. And he's standing there with with I'm thinking it was judgment. He actually means judgment as well. And he's standing there with judgment and he's watching his daughter play in heaven. And he he says something to the effect of I don't remember exactly how it feels. Does she forgive me? And I'm not sure exactly what the wording is, but but she says uh judgment says there's nothing to forgive, but if that were the case, then it would be in her nature to wow.

SPEAKER_00:

That's good.

Matt:

That's real good. Yeah, isn't it amazing how like you that hit me hard? I can tell it did. I isn't it amazing that you read that whole book and there's literally like one line that speaks to you again, going back to like music, right? Where you listen to the song, whatever, for 10 years and then post loss, all of a sudden there's this one line of this song and it just hits you from the it means so much.

SPEAKER_05:

My dad, you know, born in 1947, so Beatles, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Of course.

SPEAKER_05:

I listened to Beatles growing up.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_05:

Yesterday. Oh it hits so much different after my wife passed away.

Matt:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's crazy. I mean, grief, grief kind of does this weird thing where it like rips you if again, I'm trying to let people know if you're honest with it and you're intentional about it, it rips you wide open in some really terrible ways, but in some awesome ways too. It sounds really perverse, but it really makes you like this live emotional wire. Uh, the Shaq, and then I know I I don't want you to go. What about like how has your faith helped you with your grief?

SPEAKER_05:

After three years after my wife was gone, I finally went back to church.

Matt:

I I know that's part of why I was kind of kind of well, hold on before I move fast up. Was there any other books? Because I want to make sure that I kind of got into that part too. But was there any of the books or movies off the top of your head? If you remember, someone always puts more in the show links later, but anything else coming to mind?

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, those stood out the most, I think.

Matt:

Awesome. So going to your because this is one of the things that um I want to hear more about a little of people and how they reconcile this, right? You have this, you have faith, you have this horrible tragedy. How do you you know how does that how does that eventually pan out? And I know go ahead and share kind of because I know you've told me before.

SPEAKER_05:

The short version is I grew up Catholic. Uh when I wasn't finding the answers I was looking for in Catholic Church, I looked at Pentecostal, uh Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, never finding the answers I was looking for.

SPEAKER_03:

So I basically I won't say gave up, but I quit searching. And and when my wife got diagnosed with cancer, then I really, really questioned God.

SPEAKER_04:

Sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05:

And when she had the stroke, I cursed God.

SPEAKER_04:

Sure.

SPEAKER_03:

And when she passed away, I quit talking to God. I was done. There was no more relationship there until three years later when uh the missionaries came knocking on my door. And the girl that I had living with me actually answered the door, I probably never would have answered the door to them.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05:

And and she answered the door to me.

SPEAKER_03:

And I I I entertained them. I talked to them.

SPEAKER_05:

And the more I talked to them, I thought these past three years I have been reevaluating everything else, so why not re-evaluate this?

SPEAKER_04:

Sure.

SPEAKER_05:

And they invited me to church, and I told them I would give it a thought, and then COVID hit.

SPEAKER_00:

So you had some time to think about it.

SPEAKER_05:

So I had some time to think about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_05:

And ironically enough, when COVID had everything on lockdown, they were given permission to go in groups of 10 or less to the church. So if I was home because of COVID, I was at church, and I'm like, if that's not a sign of the apocalypse right there. Y'all are at home and I'm at church on Easter Sunday.

Matt:

So yeah, y'all better watch out. Jeff went back to church.

SPEAKER_03:

And it it it's just like the more that I, you know, the more time I spent with them and and and studying, and I I in the testimony I give, I said I more than just opened my door then I'd open my heart.

SPEAKER_05:

And and I got back into reading the Bible and everything, and the Book of Mormon and literature and researching, and you know, because I I'd read some stuff from the Book of Mormon and I'd be like, Well, how does this relate to the Bible? And I would research it, and I'd be like, Oh, says that right here in the Bible.

SPEAKER_03:

So and I'm like finally putting more pieces together than I ever had.

SPEAKER_05:

And I started to feel a sense of peace. And that piece that I had been looking for for over three years, yeah, it was finally coming back to me. And so yeah, I I gave my life back to the Lord, and and people are like, you know, I don't know I don't know how sincere Jeff is because he still uses profanity sometimes, and I'm like, profanity has nothing to do with religion. I'm sorry. Yeah, unless you take the Lord's name in vain.

Matt:

It's it's a whole nother topic, I agree. Yeah. Who chose what the swear words were? That's always been my question.

SPEAKER_05:

And you know, and once I was ordained into the priesthood, people are like, How can you be an ordained priest and and still carry a weapon? Yeah, and I'm like, Well, you believe in God? They're like, Well, yeah. I'm like, you still put your seatbelt on when you get in the car?

SPEAKER_00:

Same thing. There you go.

SPEAKER_05:

And and the piece that I found in church has helped me become a better person, a better dad.

unknown:

Uh mommy when you rang me up. I was discussing dinner plans for this weekend.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and and it's my way of of the gift of charity.

unknown:

I I I love to help and being able to feed people from the church that need help.

SPEAKER_05:

It gives me purpose.

unknown:

Yep.

SPEAKER_05:

So every everything, I'm not one of them people that goes, okay, something good happens, or something bad is lurking around the corner. I'm one of them people that says, Okay, something good happens. What better can happen next?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm the eternal optimist.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, you know, and and churches is has helped me.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, I don't know how much people know about the the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints, but they have a ceremony which is is sealing.

SPEAKER_03:

And what you can do is be sealed to your family.

SPEAKER_05:

Like your wife has already passed on, like mine, so you can have another female basically do it by proxy. And and people are like, Oh man, well, that's a bunch of hogwash.

SPEAKER_03:

And I'm like, if you don't believe it, that's fine. But I'll tell people just like I told them about the Bible. If I spend my life believing in the Bible and I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. But if you spend your life ignoring the Bible and you're wrong, you've lost everything.

SPEAKER_05:

So when the church was talking about being sealed to my family, I was I was on board.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And I've been to the temple, I've performed baptisms, and after after my wife passed away about four months later, I took off my wedding ring. And when I went to the temple, I wanted to have a piece of her with me, but knowing that I had to wear the temple garb, I couldn't even have my watch on or nothing, but I could have my wedding ring on.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so you put it back on, and I had it on. Yeah. So if you found you said peace.

SPEAKER_05:

That brought me closer to my wife and at the same time.

Matt:

I mean, yeah. You said found peace. Was there anything like specific in the beliefs, or is it I think you you I saw you get a little choke up about the Shaq line? Was it all that sounds funny because I think of the football of a basketball player, but the line from the movie, the Shaq. Uh was is it kind of that for you with like your faith and your communing with with God? That there's some you said peace. Is it is it kind of is it a little bit like that? Is it is it help you with that or or kind of just touch a little more on how you the your beliefs and uh the Bible and communing with God has maybe helped you how to bring you peace, I guess, is I guess a long-winded question, but well, I mean, because you know, on that, on that dreadful day when she passed away and they wheeled her out the door, that was in my mind at that time the last time I would ever see her.

SPEAKER_05:

But in my faith, I know that I'll see her again.

SPEAKER_00:

There you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And that brings me peace.

Matt:

Yeah. I think that, you know, I think that's one of the things that regardless of people's beliefs, I think that one of the things whether it's peace, I'm I don't know why right now I'm thinking coming to terms with that there's something about that something like the memorial thing is a big thing too, because it kind of the ceremony, everything it puts it to puts it to rest, but at the same time, if you believe that we are spiritual beings, which I tend to lean that way, that there's more to this life than than just this. And so then figuring out uh what that means to you and where you get it from is so important because in like you were just saying, uh for three years being unpeaceful, I'm speaking for you, but I think that's kind of fair, to find that peace and get confirmation that that uh you will see your wife again and be united with her again, with Rachel again, gives you peace and comfort, and like you said, only makes you a better person. That's not there's far worse things to do in this life than that, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, and I've done a lot of again.

Matt:

That's a teaser for the next the next time Jeff and I sit and talk. Um let me pull up.

SPEAKER_05:

This is the light side. Come back to the first side.

Matt:

Well, I don't, right? Like this one's about like the widowness, and then we can talk about the the solo dadness that you've done before. Um, I'm just looking at and probably have to edit my ums and stuff out here in a second. Let's see. Uh, we did that, we did that. Um I actually, you know, I think this is a let me see real quick. Uh I think this is. Do you want to do you want to touch on all about dating?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, I mean, we can, but that's gonna take a whole other.

Matt:

So let's let's put a pause on that one. I think this is, and I'm gonna probably edit this as a but I will I will go back and touch on something that you and and Adam were talking about. Go ahead, yeah, please.

SPEAKER_05:

And that's when to talk to your kids about the reality of what's happening. You know, how how young is too young, how old is too old to, you know.

Matt:

Oh, that's right. And the one Adam and I did, we did where he was talking about how with the older is a little more uh direct, and the younger one, obviously, super young. But yeah, keep going. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and and I I was always, I mean, from the day we got the diagnosis to the the day she started chemo, me and Rachel talked about how to explain it to the kids. And and like I said, you know, Lucas was only 14-15 months old at the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

So for him, it was mom is sick, and so she has to go to the doctor.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_05:

And for the other ones who ranged in age from seven to twenty six, right, teaser for the next time we talk, they could all understand right the cold hard facts, yeah. This the prognosis is two to five years. If they say two to five years, look for one to three.

Matt:

Yeah. Well, and the other thing too, when I remember, and I I do, and I think I say I again I you think I remember this stuff because I just edited that show like two days ago. Uh, I regret not being a little more forthcoming with my oldest one. I really do. I and it wasn't it was more, I don't know where it came from. It was more like I think actually, when I think about it right now, in the moment, I think it came from I thought we had more time. I really and well, I thought I'd have another chance to be honest with her.

SPEAKER_05:

And it just what we were talking about earlier. You were you were shielding her.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. Which and sometimes like you I love how you use the seatbelt example, right? Where it's like, I think I even mentioned in the last one, Mike, it's like someone's planning a car accident. Like, yeah, you're shielding, you're putting her seatbelt on, but you should probably still tell her it's gonna be a car accident, right? Like, I know it's a bad analogy because we don't plan car accidents, but how did and have you now that you're a few years out, um, I'm finding myself just from some things I've read to try to try to again, I don't I don't like the word control the narrative, but like let Blair know that you know, mom had cancer, she died, right? Like using very specific words, and she gets older, explain to her, like, you know, she took medicine, the medicine worked for a while, but it didn't, you know, are you finding yourself kind of oh peeling back those layers as the boys get older as it comes up?

SPEAKER_05:

Or well, I mean, by the time that she did pass away, Lucas was two and a half, almost three years old, right? So I explained to him, you know, mom had what's called a disease, yep, that there's no cure for, that there's no way the doctor cannot make it better.

SPEAKER_02:

Nope.

SPEAKER_05:

And I said, you know, I I even told him I got a video of taken just a couple months after she passed away. And and I asked him in the video, I'm like, where's mom? And he's like, My mom is in heaven.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_05:

I see my mom and I look at the moon. Oh, god, and my mom is in my heart.

Matt:

Oh, I love, I don't know why that's the one I love the most. I that's what Blair and I say. Because I I struggle to explain what heaven is. That's a whole different, that's a whole different conversation. But so I'm like, if I can't exp, if I can't know what it is, like it does in my own journey in spirituality, right? Like if I can't define it, how am I gonna tell my kid where mom is? So I just kind of go like she's everywhere, but we've always said she's in our heart, which I think that's true regardless of your belief. Because if you believe you're connected to somebody, you're married with them, you had kids with them, married or not, doesn't matter. If you're in a committed relationship with someone, you have children with them, or even if you did have children, you're in a committed relationship with someone and they pass away or they die, they've influenced your heart and your being for the rest of your life. So that's true regardless of your belief. I right, like I believe that. I believe like if you were with somebody for better or worse, they definitely influenced you. And so that's true. And I and I tell I love I like that one so much. The heaven's completely fine too. But I she walks around and she says all the time, like, she's in my heart. Now she gets a little now. She's a little older, she gets upset because why can't she come out of my heart and stuff? But that's again a different conversation. But I that's so good. So he was three, heart and heaven. And like, do you find them now that they're older? Is there any more questions coming or anything?

SPEAKER_05:

Or or is everything just kind of it happens when it happens, or yeah, I mean, I just take it when it when it comes and and and I haven't been knocked off my feet by much. Good, you know, because for one, like you said, kids are resilient, yeah, they mounts back. And and and I said a long time ago that it's a blessing and a curse that Jack was so little.

Matt:

Yep. I you know, there's there's no like I I've been through, you know, my dad died when I was 11. Is there a worse age to have your dad die? I don't know, but I know there were some formative years I missed out on. But it was it worse for my older brother who was 20. Oh, how old was he? He was probably we got he was 21, 22, maybe at the time. Like, that's pretty terrible too. Like he just became, you know, you know what I mean? Like, but there is something about like Blair was 13 months old, right? And you kind of go like They're only gonna know what we tell 'em. And I you can't miss what you don't have. Like, I don't like right. I'm not saying that's good. It breaks our hearts. I'm not saying that's good.

SPEAKER_05:

But there's a it's sad that you'll never know her, but on the flip side is you you you have that that that peace of mind knowing that he doesn't have to suffer it.

Matt:

There's that, right. What is it we were saying earlier? You find you find uh the beauty in the tragedy, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Like there's the beauty in the tragedy, yeah, yeah. And there's so many things that you know, I have pictures, I have videos.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_05:

And I can, you know, you can pull a picture out and and ask Jack who's this, and he'll tell you that's his mom.

Matt:

Yep. I think that's so important. Or also do you find yourself like video playing, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

You'll come learning in that's my mom. And the bear, of course, the bear is like oh, yeah. Again, that link won't be on the that message she left could not have been more appropriate for what I used it for.

Matt:

That's beautiful. Well, and you also I find too that like I so I don't know why I'm doing this. I think I know why, but I'm gonna do it. I I find myself telling my daughter things about her mother, like, oh, uh, we're drinking lemonade. You know what one of mommy's favorite drinks were? Lemonade. And so now she's got like she knows mom's favorite color. She knows mom loved dips, right? Like dipping things in. She goes, I like dips like mom like dips. Great. That is a truth. It's fine. She's gonna know it for her life. She won't know where she got it from, but that's fine. You know what I mean? Like sharing those sort of things, and I like they know their voice, they know the picture of them. I think that's way it may be really hard early on for us to do that as parents, to like, you know, show them that or share them that, regardless of their age, but hiding it away is not gonna make it any better. It may hurt us less, it may like emotionally, we may cry less because we're not looking at their pictures, but like let your kids see their their their parent.

SPEAKER_05:

It it'll you'll be my my spiritual friends love my response. I was in a group of friends, and some of them are not so spiritual and some of them are. And and one of them goes, Why would you put your kid through that? Why would you show him pictures and videos of someone that he never never got a chance to know? I said, and my answer was it was without thinking, without hesitation, I just blurted it out, and all my spiritual friends were like, Great job. I said, I said, I want him to know her when they get to heaven.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. And they were like Absolutely, whoa, that's awesome, man. I love it, I love it. So this was what I was thinking we could kind of end on, too. Um, because I was just scrolling through some, like, yeah, I'm trying to keep these questions so I can do them more often. And because it segue so into, and I think we can end with this. Is there or are there any phrases that you use or continue to use to help you get through the day?

SPEAKER_05:

One on the one right there. Go forward.

Matt:

Yep. And tell me real quick where because you held up because we're on Zoom, they can't see. I'll release this at some point in my life, but tell them where the go forward comes from.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh go forward. Christopher Reeve, who played Superman, was in a forcing accident and became a quadriple.

SPEAKER_03:

And started the Christopher Reeve Foundation, which did research for paraplegic.

SPEAKER_05:

They adopted the company motto of go forward, because in Christopher Reeves' own words he said in the face of adversity, you have two choices. You can surrender to it or you can go forward. And I have a necklace with a dog tag that has a synagogue that says go forward that I wear every day. Unless I'm hanging out with my channels and I don't wear it. But if I'm dressed and I have my my dog tag on that says go forward, and and I make the conscious decision every day to go forward.

Matt:

I think that's beautiful, man. I I I think you captured, I think one of the things I try to use in my little solo dad commercial, right? Is like it's about grief, grit, and getting going again with living and loving, right? That's summed up and get you go forward, right? I think that's so that's so awesome. Um Jeff, brother, I again, I know I said a little bit ago, thank you so much for taking time out of your night. Uh, I know we had a couple of guest appearances in the background. Uh, they're awesome and they're so well behaved. Although I did, I was, I I had Facebook up on the side of me, and I did see why you have cameras in the house. I did see some shenanigans earlier, some gentlemen on the countertops. Um, but brother, man, I seriously I hope you know, and I'm this is really from the heart. I have so much adoration and respect for you and everything. And again, teaser, there's more coming from Jeff from everything you've gone through.

SPEAKER_05:

Um, in widowhood, man.

Matt:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

I would say this for for anybody out there that's going through this. I enjoy talking about Rachel. Yeah, why wouldn't you keep her alive by talking about her?

Matt:

Absolutely. I need to find it. Somebody there was somewhere I sh there was there was a phrase someone used which was, and I gotta go find it, it was so well put, but basically it was saying, like, by us sharing the memories of our people, it it makes them live forever in places they never would have been.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, it was something like that. I said I said, I said she's not really dead until I quit talking about her.

Matt:

That's actually that's a very uh talk about good movies. It's uh uh the Deus D the Coco or the the Book of the Dead movie, where that's the very Hispanic uh culture, which is someone's not actually dead until someone no longer says us their name. So they disappear in the afterlife, is uh the story goes. But I agree with you, and I think that yeah, it's a it's a good movie, it's interesting because like anyway, yeah. Uh, but I agree, man. And I and I can tell there's there's there's something in your eyes, there's something in your face. Uh I know you already know what I'm gonna ask you to share with me. I want you to, if you're I'm sure you're comfortable with it. I want that picture of Rachel that um is so elegant and beautiful uh in the window that I can put up for the podcast and stuff. But man, we'll talk more. Uh, you are definitely a Superman brother, and um you keep, I just saw that you keep going forward. And Jeff, I oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05:

Even when I'm not wearing nothing, I got Superman.

Matt:

You still got him on you. I love it. Um, I appreciate it, man. And I'm so glad we've connected. And I'm I I enjoy everything you do on social media, and I look forward to another conversation about uh Jeff's first venture into being a solo dad, which is a whole different story. But I think it'll speak to speak to dads in a different one.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, is that this is round three.

Matt:

I know. He's if you notice there are some other children that didn't get uh their kudos this time, but that's more of a uh that's more of a different that's a that's a solo dad from a different way. So this one was about your widowhoodness, and then we'll do another one about the other situation. So Jeff, brother, thank you so much, man.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm always happy to help you know that, man.

Matt:

Appreciate it, brother.