The Solo Dad Podcast

Episode 2.9 Jo Ann and Mathew: Solo Mom Talks to Solo Dad

• Solo Dads • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Mathew talks to his mother Jo Ann, who became a widow at the age of 37, after Mathew’s father died of a massive heart attack while on a business trip. Jo Ann soon moved Mathew, then 11, and his 6-year-old brother Jonathan from Southern California to Northern California to begin a whole new life. Throughout what was an overwhelming time, Jo Ann encountered many acts of kindness and connection that showed her that the Universe was looking out for her, as it looks out for all of us. She also found solace in her faith, and a sense of community from the church.

It can be easy to romanticize your lost loved ones, but it’s important to go out and find someone to share the rest of your life with, knowing that people come into, and leave, our lives when they’re meant to. Jo Ann describes her regrets, and her advice to those going through similar circumstances.

Here, mother and son discuss the importance of self-care, which includes having alone time, the importance of asking for help, the Bible verses that address grief and widowhood. 

Quotes

· “There’s more to this life than this minute and this thing we’re doing right now.” (5:15-5:20 | Jo Ann)

· “If the universe and the Lord could hear a little boy’s desire, in the midst of heartbreak and fulfill it, who was I to worry? (15:34-15:45 | Jo Ann) 

· “Sometimes the universe as big as it is can be really, really small. Sometimes things happen for reasons or we find the reasons in them.” (31:39-31:46 | Matthew)

· “Everyone’s is a unique journey. There’s no duplicate, and what’s going to be yours is going to be yours, uniquely.” (42:59-43:13 | Jo Ann)

· “Is there anything that you did that you wouldn’t want me to repeat? ‘Boy, I really hope that another widow or widower doesn’t do this, or ends up doing that.’” (52:53-53:08 | Mathew)

·  “What has this grief taught you about life or about people?” (59:13-59:23 | Mathew)


Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm



Matt:

Welcome to a very special episode of the Solo Dad podcast. This is also going to be a crossover podcast with the Solo Mom Podcast. As one of the co-hosts of the Solo Dad podcast, I have a passion for single parents and solo parents. And I am in the rare statistic, I think, that I was actually myself and my younger brother were raised by a solo mom from the ages of 11 and 6. So I figured who better to kick off the solo mom podcast with, with the longest running solo mom I know. My mom. Hey mom. Hello. How are you today?

SPEAKER_04:

Very well, thank you.

Matt:

Good. Uh we're doing this right on the heels. Nope, it'd be right in front of Mother's Day, just because of the timing, and we both had the time to do it. So I appreciate you taking time out of not being a grandma and have this conversation. So um why don't we just kick off with kind of how we do most of our conversations with widows and widowers, which is how did and the the funny, not the funny, the ironic part of this conversation is I know most of what my mom's gonna say, but it's gonna be her story. So um it's a little interesting take. Usually I'm I'm you know surprised or I learn uh as I go. So I'm sure I'll learn something here. So, mom, how did you move into the widowhoodness neighborhood? So take us back to how you became a widow.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, well, the year was 1988. Uh, I need to preface this that uh my husband and I were um having maritable problems and we were separated at the time. And he was on a business trip and uh died of a sudden massive heart attack. So I got the news by a phone call. And um, so my whole life changed at the age of 37 and um had to deal with lots of things, and so that's how I entered my new phase of life.

Matt:

Do you do you remember who made who called you?

SPEAKER_04:

It was Robert that called me, my stepson, um, because one that's where my husband was living at the time with his two eldest children, and um and so he got the call from the actually, I believe it was the hotel. I'm not sure who adv advised him, but anyway, and then he called me. So it was Robert.

Matt:

Yeah, of all the ironies of ironies, um, dad died on a business trip in Denver. I have a completely unrelated, it just happens, I have a massive connection through widowhood to Denver, even now, just realizing it's like a repeat. Like, like I have uh there's an amazing community in Denver I've can tapped into, so that's kind of weird. Um, so do you can it? I have my memory and I'll play it in a minute. Do you remember how that morning went?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yes. It can be like yesterday.

Matt:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Um so it the phone call came around midnight-ish. And um actually I'll I'll throw in a little something is that a few days earlier, I got a uh in my quiet time that I was at that time of my life, I was regularly having prayer and quiet time, um mornings or evenings, and um I got a voice message that said, get ready to move. And it that was not what I was thinking of at the time. And but it was definitely kind of kind of made me turn around. And then also at that same at the night I got the phone call, I was in bed, and I thought I heard somebody call my name and um a man's voice, call my name, but I didn't, I can't say that it was his voice, but it was just this his presence. And so when I got the phone call, um one I was already not saying semi-awake, but there was just a little unsettling from that night, and then the news on the phone when everything kind of settled down in the next day and my thoughts started coming together. It I just want to say that I learned little bits and pieces from that moment on, and and there were some before that too, but um that there's more to this life than this minute and this thing that we're doing right now. And and so that also will explain how a lot of what I walked through in my experiences um was I mean the loss was there and then and the fear about what's gonna happen next and the not knowings and uh unanswered questions and such like that. That was all there, but there was also this underlying but right, whatever.

Matt:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So I I went off on a bunny trail there. Where did we leave?

Matt:

No, you're fine. No, you're fine, you're fine. No, I so do you remember? So I didn't realize the call came that late at night. Do you remember do you remember Jonathan or me? Or did you tell us both at the same time? Because I have an interesting memory, but I can't tell if it's a real memory or if it's an amalgamation. Do you remember how you told Jonathan?

SPEAKER_04:

So I I stayed up through the night ironing, because kind of what I did, waiting for I didn't wake you guys up in the middle of the night to tell you that. I waited for morning. And um, I'm pretty sure I had the two of you sitting on the couch, one on each side of me. Okay, um, and and that's when I don't remember the words I used.

Matt:

No, it's okay. I don't remember the words either. What I because we were living in an apartment that uh was split by a staircase, and you went upstairs, you went to the right, and I think it was your room in the bathroom, and then to the left was Jonathan. I shared a room, if I remember correctly. And my memory is, and I'm not saying one of us, my memory is coming down to you and Jonathan. And Jonathan had a very unique look on his face that I now understand is like, you know, grief and soul shattering, like he would be he was crying. Um, so I don't know if that's like you told us and I saw that, or if it was I came down, so it's just an amalgamation, right? Like I can't, I can't definitively on a witness stand say, but um I what I remember from that day isn't so much what you told me, was I have this very distinct memory of Jonathan's face. Of just like a kid from a Time Picture magazine just weeping, right? Just that's what I remember. And I remember seeing it. Remember how there's like a little triangle coming down the stairway into the living room, like a like a rail. I remember kind of seeing him through that. Again, I can't definitively say that's what really would happen, but that's what recorded in my mind. Um, so and I I would imagine you told us both at the same time. I can't imagine you wanted to do that twice. Um, so but that's my memory. It's very interesting. It's like I have this very distinct memory of Jonathan's reaction to it.

SPEAKER_04:

I I believe that um that could have very well happened because what I'm thinking is that Jonathan at just turned six, you know, his birthday was just the week before. Um he didn't quite understand. And I don't believe he broke out crying as I was telling it, but I think as maybe he asked a couple more questions, and no, Daddy isn't coming back, and that kind of thing started that bit of a conversation. So I could see where both happened. I told you at the same time, you went up to do something, I'm still talking to John, you came back down, and here now Jonathan is um kind of understanding that there's a big loss here.

Matt:

And it's just interesting. Like I said, I on a witness stand, I wouldn't swear either way.

SPEAKER_04:

I just that's my that's my day.

Matt:

Fun fun fact for those that are listening. Uh, my brother's birthday is the only birthday that my uh dad took the pictures, and there's not a single picture of him, if I remember, or or there is like one uh of him in any of the pictures. Uh, what would equate to about when we were last together?

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

Matt:

We were last together at Jonathan's birthday, like nine days before he he died. So which is which is interesting, right? Well, funny how the universe works that way sometimes. So okay, so you are 37. You've got one amazing son, and one son that's in uh we'll just we'll let people decide. Uh no, you have two amazing sons. Uh and uh my older siblings, your your stepchildren are all just for people to understand, uh, we're a blended family. Uh the older kids were in college and had already moved out of our co-habitation home anyway, long before, or not long before, but so they were they were away going to college in the greater, if people really want to know, in the greater Southern California area. So here you are at 37, uh um with an 11 and a six-year-old. Uh, we don't really have any family down in Southern California. Uh, dad's jobs were down there. Uh, we were in school. So kind of, I guess, take it, take us through um from that to I don't, I don't know, wherever you felt the next part of your chapter or journey went.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, so I had been let go of my job not too much before all this happened. And that was quite a surprise shock to me. And so um, I really, you know, thinking that I was then going to be getting a different job and whatever, did not know what I was going to be doing. Um, and did not know that there would be social security benefits to help with finances with you guys. Um and there so there was a lot of money issues that I wasn't aware of that became known to me. And of course things turned out just fine. In fact, miracles of miracles. And then um uh my support was I belonged to a small Presbyterian church. I actually was the little secretary for a while at this church, and they that's where you know the boys went to a little Sunday schools. And if you wanted the little youth group to happen, you know, you were there making the pizzas for the kids because that's how the youth group happened. It was it was small and intimate. And and but that was the definite support that was given to me with much love and care and generosity, and so I didn't feel um alone. Um, and they and also between the soccer teams and and things that you two were on, um, they all because it was just so unheard of, you know, for young boys like you to be fatherless at this age, um, the families really came.

Matt:

You were 37, just so people also know that my dad was 45. Just so or your husband, my dad was 45 when he died. So everyone was relatively young.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. To me, they were very young when I think of it now. So um, yeah, so my support was the church. Um and and yes, I knew that I could not raise the two boys in this very gang um heavy environment that San Pedro was at that time. Um and I had already been longing to get back to Northern California, um farm girl, country girl, mountain girl um environment that I was comfortable in.

SPEAKER_03:

So uh it didn't take long for me to start um researching getting back to my my homeground and processing that that we the boys and I would move. Um and so that's what we did from March to um and we moved in July.

Matt:

When uh I think I I think this is one of those times when it's probably good to mention kind of how whatever you and I both have had conversations about where we stand spiritually and religiously, as as we have with our lives intersecting now and you being grandma Jojo, um, is that I think it's kind of fun to mention the Kentucky fried chicken uh story in this. So a little a little bit about so also how the church was taking care of you. So, as people do, meal trains were being set up, and so there's a Kentucky fried chicken store. Actually, I shouldn't have said Kentucky, that's not sponsored by them, would love to be if they wanted to, but uh we'll just say a fried chicken story so that way any fried chicken person can know. So there's a very interesting fried chicken story. So can you share? Because that's kind of that's before we moved, right? Yeah, so if you could share that.

SPEAKER_04:

We were getting ready for the funeral and and I had Jonathan in the car, and we had to go back and pick out or take over his suit and tie or something like that for the open viewing and stuff like that. And so I have Jonathan in the car and we're running and trying to take care of the stuff. And Jonathan goes, Mommy, you know, I want some Kentucky fried chicken for lunch. I want some chicken for lunch. Sorry, you know, um, um we'll we'll get it later. People are bringing over food right now, John, and taking care of us this way. We will get that for you later. We will, we will. And so um the family that was bringing over the food that day was a young family and had taken their kids to the beach and they kind of lost track of time and forgot. And so they were a little bit late coming with the dinner, because usually they come by four o'clock so we could feed the kids whenever. Um, and so they were a little bit late, like five or five thirty, but we were fine. We had plenty of food in the house. Um, and lo and behold, they were apologizing right and left because they were late. And so they just went by and picked up Kentucky fried chicken. And so, and unbeknownst to them, also, that was one of my husband's favorite foods. I could not make fried chicken the way he knows.

Matt:

No one makes food like they do in Oklahoma if you're not from Oklahoma. So slightly in your defense and thank you.

SPEAKER_04:

But I learned how to make beans and ham hocks and cornbread and a lot of other foods, not that one. Um so you know, if the universe, if the Lord if can hear a little boy's desire in the midst of heartbreak and stuff like that and fulfill it instantly, um, who was I to worry? And then um, not much more than a week later, when I'm trying to fill out all the paperwork and such, figure out what's going on. Um, my husband left. Okay, then the other one was um, you know, after it's been a couple weeks and I'm trying to figure out paperwork and stuff, I don't have a job. I found out that yes, there's going to be some social security benefits for you. Um the nutshell is um my husband left IBM after a very long career there and had a new job. And the new job didn't have anything but a minimal life insurance because he was still um, you know, inside the 90 days or whatever, right?

Matt:

Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, with this new job. And so there was no life insurance policy for him. Um, but I went back to IBM and they went and looked through all the different papers and got me qualified for whatever you know was coming towards me. But um they could not find the paper where he would sign whether or not um certain benefits regarding um at his death, would I get any of his uh pay or part of his pay or none of his pay or something like that? I can't I really can't remember the details.

Matt:

Beneficiary form, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, so um so what they did is if I would pay the um insurance premiums from the time he left IBM to the time of his death, um I would have this life insurance policy. A IBM does not lose paperwork like that. So that was there's number one right there. Number two, the benefit I received is basically what I needed to pay my monthly rent. I would have a roof over my head with my boys, no matter what. And I, you know, so I I just needed to make sure they had the rest, which you know, like I can do this, you know. It's like, okay, you know. Um so between those those two financial pieces, things fell into place for me. Um, and that just the one thing I would like to say forward to others um is that look for these miracles, they're there. When when we're in all of this trauma and and there's this energy of emotions and whatever's going on with us, there are some amazing things that happen. And um be be aware for them. Um they're gonna happen, uh, but sometimes in our sadness and um just the negativity of the situation, uh, we we may not grab on to them, but I grabbed on to them. And um yeah, so I want to encourage people.

Matt:

Well, I think it kind of falls in that kind of sometimes uh making sense of the senseless. And yeah, there are there are things that I think maybe it's a little harder in the grief fog or in the in the grief concussion to recognize, but I think a lot of times uh, you know, I think Marcy and I, the fact that we wound up in the house we wound up in for the short amount of time we wound up in, the universe put us exactly where we should have been because those people on that neighborhood. Yeah, in Elmhurst, it were were universe sent. It was fantastic fantastic. Sounds bad for how everything went, but they were could not have been more perfect for what we went through. So um, so you've got two boys, you wind up uh moving us to Northern California a little closer to your family, but also closer to a lifestyle that you kind of envisioned for us and yourself. So, walk, um, maybe think about like uh, you know, a 37-year-old widow, right? Yeah, widow, because I'm a widower, uh, widow, like what would be some of the advice as you made those decisions looking back? Like, how did you know they were the right one? Or what did you use to go, like, yeah, this is okay. I can do this, because that's a I mean, no job. You moved, I think I've done the math before, about 1600 miles straight north. Um, not to like a Sight unseen, because ironically, your dad, my grandpa went to college there. So you're familiar with the area, but it wasn't the same at all. You've been gone for 20 plus years, right? So kind of maybe what would you like? How did you know it was the right decision? Or how did you kind of go like, yep, I I this is where I need to be? Or I mean, I know I know the church story too. So that was kind of a confirmation when we can talk about the uh the friend in the church, yeah. The Dehart and McConey connection, um, which is statistically, I'm sure someone can run those numbers, but it is not or the little house that I wanted to get that one as well. I've told that one too. That one's not that big of a one. I think the other one's a very big one. The person having a dog in a house not that happens all the time. Um, but the other one I think is very, very okay.

SPEAKER_04:

I think I go for both of them.

Matt:

I know you do. So, so, but real quick, so we'll start with the like sort of it. Think about like your we'll go. We're we're our first year in in Chico. If anyone wants to, I mean, at some point I just have to stop talking in not innocuous, but uh in vague terms because people are going to figure out. So in Chico, California, which is up northern California, which is all where all your nuts and rice come people from. So just so you know. So anyway, um, how did you know we'll just go at a year that you're like, yep, this is where we're supposed to be? And what were some of the like if you could tell somebody who just lost their husband and is thinking about relocating for a bunch of really what seems like good reasons, how do you how would you tell them, like, yeah, do it and you will go back? Like, I guess how do you confirm you made the right choice? And what made you, and I guess the first part is what did you what parameters do you use to make that choice? And then at whatever point did you go like, yep, it was the right choice. And how did you know? I guess are the two questions. So the first is what parameters helped you get us because I voted for San Diego 20 years later, but we didn't move there. Um, but like what because could you imagine? Anyway, uh, yeah. So what parameters did you use to wind up there in with grief, with money, with two kids? And we weren't just so everyone else understands, real quick, we weren't moving to like where we had a bunch of family, like we had some. I think our great my great uncle was the only one that technically lived in Chico, right? Um, so it wasn't like we were moving to this like massive family homestead, uh, or even a hometown where like my relatives grew up in. Right.

SPEAKER_04:

So, how did you like kind of go through that and then bounce it back to like yeah, kind of like a business checklist or a grocery checklist? Um uh I wanted it, I had a list of I wanted to be able to get out and do my walks. Um, I wanted the uh my sons to be able to walk to school safely. Um, and I wanted four seasons, but I didn't want to shovel snow.

Matt:

Um for my daughters listening, I walked uphill both ways in the snow to school. In California.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and and and was and so yeah, so I I had a checklist of things that I was looking for to raise the boys in the kind of environment. And I was even, you know, thinking of the the university there, you know, thinking idealistic, oh, and the boys could live at home and go to college. Unbeknownst to me, I would not want my you know, late teen, early 20-year-olds living at home going to college.

Matt:

So everyone listening do not want to be as cute and as lovely as your children are now. True. I have an 18-year-old, and I I mean I wish you'd stick around for like another year or so, but it's time it's time for them to go.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

Matt:

So if you have a cute, lovely one now, don't think that they're gonna stay at home forever.

SPEAKER_04:

That's not our you really want them to. I had one of those things Matthew was moving out for hope, I think was the last time, you know, and I'm driving and I'm laughing and crying at the same time because I'm cutting the apron apron strings, you know. The the mothering mother, you know, is supposed to be ending. Sorry, it never does end, Matthew. Um but but you know, but but yet, you know, it's the right thing. He's you know, he's this young man that wants to tell his mother how she should be doing things differently, you know, and it's just like, okay, okay.

Matt:

It's time for me to go. So, so a little bit of a checklist. And I think that I what I would kind of a little bit kind of how I wound up where I am now. Um, but I think that that's a lot of people say, you know, wait a year to make uh massive changes. Well sometimes sometimes you that's just not in the cards. Uh sometimes, like, you know, if you've got a kid that's about ready to start high school, you can't wait a year to move. You're like, we got to get them to where they're gonna be in high school or something, or an opportunity comes up or a job. So a lot of people, there's this kind of loose rule in the grief community of like wait a year to make a massive decision. But at the same time, you you couldn't, I mean, you could have waited a year, but I don't think it would have changed anything.

SPEAKER_04:

And also, uh, you're right. Um, so this church that um that nurtured me and and and took care of me in San Pedro, we were down there, they agreed that it was too soon for me to leave. So they held a prayer time for me, a circle prayer time. Other people were prayed for too. Um, and they wanted to make sure that they wanted me to um find a special friend or have some kind of um acknowledgement that you're a good move.

Matt:

This is the other one that I think this one blows my mind because statistically speaking, I'm sure someone can run the numbers. So I'll set the stage and you can tell a story. So keep in mind, everybody, we just this is probably the I spent the summer with my grandparents while my mom readjusted and found places and moved, and then we moved. And right, that's that's what that happened. I spent the summer with summer, yeah. And um, so she only had to deal with one of her two wonderful boys. Uh, it was too much wonderfulness for her to have both of us. No, and so I was with the summer with my grandparents. We moved to Chigo, California. So this is 1600 miles, and there is no connection beyond a great aunt and uncle that used to farm up there, so they're not even really in the same kind of like community that we well.

SPEAKER_02:

They don't they don't attend church, so that's no, right?

Matt:

That's not so there's no there's no connection there. And this church was rather big, and they had morning services, and then they kind of had breakout after or after mid-morning sessions, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Services, right?

Matt:

For everybody, for married couples, for single couples, for kids, for they had everything, right? They had all those breakout sessions after the main service. So I'm pretty sure my mom had had about enough, and I get it now, especially with my situation now, and she just wanted some time to not be around her two sons. And I being a not a 11 and a half year old being forced to go into this new probably fifth and sixth grader Bible school, if we will. Um hang on one second.

SPEAKER_03:

What in the world? Hang on, sorry. Gosh darn it.

Matt:

So before we tell that story, I'm just gonna go ahead and let people in on the real, like what really happens as a solo parent. So I have a very gracious neighbor who has their grandchild with them, and they just called, and my daughter is crying on the phone because she fell on skinned or elbow. So the choice right now is to allow someone else to take care of your kid or drop this call and run and go take care of the kid. So um I think I'm gonna, I think this is a good spot to pause. Let me call her back and see if she's okay. Um, but this, I just I think this needs to stand here for the main fact of like this is the stuff that solo parents go through. Like, there's no mom to call to come watch her. Like this inner, like I blocked this time off with my mom to have this conversation, knowing someone else is gonna watch her. So this is the sort of stuff that makes solo parenting so taxing and so difficult. And I'm so sorry that my mom had two sons. I'm not so yeah, so we'll pause there. Let me let me just pause it. Um actually I'm gonna stop it because I don't get two different files. I'll shut this down and then we can pick right up with the story of if you jot down, can you write jot down on your notes because I wasn't thinking anything, the neighborhood church story, and then we can go from there.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, yes, okay. Talk to you soon.

Matt:

Hey there, Solo Dad Podcast listeners, tribe of allies, friends and family, both near and wide, wanted to take a minute, just to remind you to follow us wherever you can find social media. We are at Solo Dad Podcast on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. You can send an email to solo dadpodcast at gmail.com. If you could also follow and give a like and a review to the episode, we greatly appreciate the feedback. It also helps the episodes and the show be found. So thanks so much for the support, and we'll return back to the conversation. So the kid is fine, and we are gonna pick up where we talk about the statistical anomaly of what was happening when my mom was taking me to uh like a Sunday Bible school uh after the main service. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_04:

So yeah, so I was um in Chico looking for a new place to live, you know, hadn't settled or anything, and church was um a good time for me to have a quiet time by myself uh because the boys would be in a Sunday school. So I'm taking Matthew to this one class and he won't go in. He's just standing outside being Matthew at that age. And um so the Sunday school teacher comes out and I just want to get back to the quiet of the church, and she wants to make conversation. Um, where are you from? Yeah, yeah, but up in Northern California, you just say you I'm from the LA area, you know. Oh, where in LA? Rolling my eyes, probably, maybe in my head, if not my face. Um, San Pedro. Oh, really? Oh, my best friend lives in San Pedro. Yeah, well, you never see anybody you know in San Pedro. Grocery storage banks, wherever you go, you never see anybody you know. Um, so you know, okay, that's nice. Well, the long story, the the short story of it is that yes, her best friend went to the little church, and her um her son and Matthew were on the same uh soccer team. They we went to church together, they had sleepovers and birthday parties together. This was somebody that I knew very personally, and this lady um took me under her wing from that moment on um and watched the boys for me for a while while I could go do things, told me what part of the area to find a home in, not find a home in, but most of all, it was a response to my home church in San Pedro's request that I find a friend when I moved up there to let them know it was okay for me to go.

Matt:

Well, and they they lived they lived across the street from the church.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, yes. Yes, yeah.

Matt:

So it was a like rapidly small world and kind of that like you know, again, whatever your spiritual inclinations are, it's that wink, wink, nod, nod, nud nudge that sometimes the universe is as big as it is, can be really, really small. And sometimes uh things happen for reasons, or we find the reasons in them. And I again I would love any fan of the show to run the statistical probability of that, but I'm pretty sure it's not that high. So um, and I you know what's interesting. I a side note, I might just put an ask for it's like I'm trying to do you remember how they were connected to them?

SPEAKER_04:

Was that oh yes, so both of them, as young couples, lived in Las Vegas at the time. That's right, both cut came to Christ together in Las Vegas at the time, so they have a very strong bond together. And one of them moved up to Chico, the other one moved over to San Pedro.

Matt:

That's right. So there's the okay. I couldn't remember. I was like, they both weren't northern California, they both weren't in San Francisco. That's right.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, no, they were both in Las Vegas together as young couples.

Matt:

Hey there, listeners and my tribe of allies. Want to take just a moment to remind you how you can find the podcast. We are on all platforms, we're on Apple Podcasts, we're on Spotify, we're on Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Audible, and all the others. If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, please give us a feedback and give a review. It helps the podcast be found. If you're looking to find more solo dad content, we are on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter at SoloDad Podcast. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the show, or if you just want to email us with thoughts or topics you'd like to hear us talk about, good old-fashioned email for us is solo dadpodcast at gmail.com. Thank you again for your support and listening, and we hope you find it helpful. Back to the conversation. So, yeah, so that's kind of that one of those uh confirmations. Probably you're like, oh, definitely moved to the right place. And although I joke about like, wow, if we'd move to San Diego, imagine how amazing it would be. But I also recognize, I mean, I am very blessed to have I think no fewer than 10 amazing guy friends that I've had more or less since the seventh grade. And you know, it's added from that. But I mean, from that original move to NorCal, I would have never met those 10 guys, and a lot of different things would have happened. So I know I appreciate it, and I think uh our hometown or what I would call my hometown is an amazing place to have grown up and to have been from, and it's still a pretty great place, even though, as all things do, things change. So um, yeah, I mean, if you want to tell the rental one, you can, but I I I mean that's just a little side looking for a place to stay.

SPEAKER_04:

And um and I found the perfect little tiny house, you know, and anyway. Um, but the couple before me, he was a professor, I was a single mom with two boys, they had one little girl, but they were one of them was very allergic to cats or dogs or whatever it was. And the um owner assured them that no, nobody had because she didn't allow cats or dogs in her homes, but she rented out, and she assured them that no. But when the lady went in the house, apparently they had snuck in an animal because the lady broke out and they couldn't rent the house. And so the house was mine because you know, by default, who was the lady gonna rent to? Yeah, husband and wife of a little girl sounds like a good fit, right?

Matt:

Yeah, especially you know, the two single mom with two boys, I don't know. But he's looking at a whole new uh house rehab at the end of the time we moved out, but so so kind of pause in that area, and obviously you mentioned a couple of like confirmations you moved to the right place, but at some point, did you ever kind of take a sigh of relief and go, like, yeah, this was definitely the right move. So glad we didn't stay in Southern California, so glad we didn't move to, I don't know, where our family lived, Sacramento area is like someplace bigger. Like, was there a point in time where you go like, wow, I did make the right decision? And maybe even uh if you could talk to yourself at early on in in your widowhoodness, um what would you have told yourself at we'll go a year or two after dad died of like how things were gonna work out, or any words of encouragement you could give yourself back then for those that are listening about being a syllabus?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh two things one um is a reflection that I had just heard this not too long ago and and claim it from back then. Um every tragedy has a next chapter, and um just that enlightens a lot of things. But um when we moved to Chico, one of the first things I did is I put up a banner sign in the kitchen that said a new beginning. Yeah, it was above you. You were short then. It was it was up along the top over the kitchen sink and it said a new beginning. And um, I was free to make my choices on my own.

Matt:

Pretty sure that was probably printed on a dot matrix printer with the little tabs you had to pull off, and it probably took her like five hours to print it. Just like people know what the technologies were back then, that and uh so new beginnings, and then you were saying that this kind of goes to a phrase real quick. This kind of goes to a phrase that we talk about in our uh podcasts and stuff about your life, excuse me, our life, even though you and dad were separated, our life became your life. Well, becomes your life. It's now yours to make the decisions, and it's a very odd metamorphosis and change to go through to recognize like, oh, I can put up this picture in the house because it's my choice now. Not that you're gonna completely disagree with the person that's passed away or died, but it's now up to you to make these decisions. And part of that factor is you have to do what's best for you in a silo event because you are doing this by yourself.

SPEAKER_04:

And some of those were a freeing, wonderful experience because I could do whatever I wanted. Others were very burdensome because um I didn't felt I didn't feel like um I knew what I was doing, I didn't have anyone else to consult, no one else to blame if it went wrong. You know, there was, you know, there was a lot of the other parts of it. And the one thing I didn't do um was um, well, to the extent I wished I would have, I did at some, is seek good advice in the areas I was not wise in. And I did not grow up giving getting good information about um finances. Um, I was always short-term take care of feeding all the kids and what we're doing now and this month, bigger picture was not something that I um was proficient at um or you know, like climbing a career ladder and stuff like that. I was brought up to be a wife and a mother and take care of other people, and that's pretty much what I did. I didn't transition from that to what I am and my possibilities until um later in life. So I was doing what I knew to do, but I I really admire Matthew and and others who seek out good advice and counsel in the areas um to go forward. It's really important.

Matt:

I wonder if A, that's a bit of a change in times where like there are like like people advertise, like I'm in, you know, I just more out there. Yeah, I give advice in this area and and more accessible. And then uh um obviously a change.

SPEAKER_04:

More acceptable.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, that's true too. And then I also so then on that, would you it would be hard to find, but back then would you have told your younger self to like go find a I'm just gonna use this word because it kind of works, but like a grief mentor, like someone that had kind of walked a solo mom path in front of you that maybe maybe was different enough for you to give you different skill set. I'm just kind of wondering because I think everything turned out fine.

SPEAKER_04:

There were grief groups, and I did attend, but their functions were a little bit different than what you are providing. Um, it was more having to do with a personal relationship of losing this person and how are you adjusting to losing this person in your life. Um and, you know, did you say goodbye to them or this and that? But the idea of living your life and how do you handle life situations when you don't fit in anymore? It was very hard being in church and not having a spouse. Everything was coupled. Oh yeah. Everything was, you know, the husband and wife. And and um I and I will share now that I consciously made a choice to stay quite obese because I didn't want to be a threat to the wives. I wanted them to know that, you know, I was out there. I wasn't looking for a guy or, you know, any kind of relationship with a guy, you know, don't worry about me. Your husband can come fix my boys' bikes, and that's all they're going to do. Thank you. You know.

Matt:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, those kind of choices um are different.

Matt:

Yeah. Yeah. I um is there anything else that you would again trying to like go back because it's been 34 plus years at this point. Is there anything you would go back and tell your 37, 38-year-old self, or even like 40-year-old self about how things go or what a little bit of the woulda, shoulda, coulda, because I think too, you just have so much to reflect on. Not that, and we've talked about this before off air, that sometimes we say, Well, had I known about Yahoo, I would have invented invested in that or Tesla or Google, and every my life would have been totally different. We always assume it'd be for the better. We don't know that, right? We don't know that those decisions could have been better or worse, and we could have lived in a different neighborhood, and et cetera. But is there is there anything you would tell yourself beyond kind of like you know, I love how you said fitting in. We talk about that a lot because you don't really fit in anywhere uh when you're a widow person, especially a young widowed person with kids. Um, and I'd even say you actually probably fit in less so if you're a widowed person with no kids and you're that young. Like if you're under the age of 30 and you've lost your spouse and you have no kids, I don't know. You can't go to divorce groups with kids, you can't, I don't know where you'd go, but that's not my journey, so I can't speak to it. But yeah, just kind of going back to that time frame, is there anything else, or maybe like rather than to yourself, if there's somebody that's in a very similar situation that you were in who is before the age of 40, has two kids, and is going through the kind of the early grief process and establishing themselves, is there anything else you would tell them in that moment, not necessarily going forward, but in that stage, in that beginning stage of grief and redefining what living's gonna be. Is there anything you would uh tell somebody?

SPEAKER_03:

Just that everyone's is a unique journey.

SPEAKER_02:

That's true.

SPEAKER_03:

There's no duplicate and what's going to be yours is going to be yours uniquely.

SPEAKER_04:

However, however long or short it is. Um I just in the last four years was able to have reflection on my family history, on my own history, seeing a whole different um perspective and have different knowledge. So, you know, here I'm in my late 60s, my 70s, and I'm I have a whole different idea of what happened back then, looking back. And again, it's a unique journey. Nobody else had that one and the timing. So you know, there's like 25, 30 years down the road, and I'm still working with some of the issues. Sure. So notice some of it may be on the shelf for decades. And then when the time is right, um then you will process that other piece that was just laying back there, and you know it's harboring back there.

Matt:

It's this unfinished something that needs to be that will be addressed.

SPEAKER_04:

But don't but don't worry about it then. Don't dwell on it.

SPEAKER_03:

In its time, if it needs to happen, it will be resolved. You'll you'll figure it out.

Matt:

No, uh yeah, and I think some of it is you, you know, grief's a pretty messy sandwich, and you can't like take it all. Well, it's very it's fairly not recommended to take it all at once. Um, kind of going to like a middle phase. So we're set up in Chico, life's kind of rinse and repair.

SPEAKER_04:

I can't say that I would change anything. Right.

Matt:

I know it's kind of like the results, right? Again, going back to that middle phase, is there anything that you would or even the whole the whole part? Is there anything that you wished you would have dealt with differently or done differently? As advice, not necessarily more like maybe if someone again was listening, maybe they should consider like one of the things we say a lot is like self-care is not selfish, right? Like if you're not taking care of yourself, you're gonna do your kids in your community zero good. So, especially for guys who struggle with asking for help to other guys. Um, you know, if your jam is to go to the gym and work out and that gives you what you need, then you need to find a way to do it. If your jam is to go play video games, then you find a way to do it because you're not gonna show up. You're already limited in your emotional capacity because of the grief. So therefore, you need not that it needs to be a bigger priority, you just may need to make a bigger effort because so much of your time is consumed being a parent and grieving and doing it by yourself.

SPEAKER_04:

There's two things that were very um instrumental in getting through those years. One, asking for help. Um, being a mom of two boys, I needed male influences and um having the different men that would each individual that would in some way take you boys under their wings and kind of and the boys' groups that I was able to have you in those stockade groups with the boys, just being around guys and going on camping trips with guys and stuff like that. Um, that was important. So making that happen, you know, I had to seek that out and create that for you. And then for myself, the self-care, um, again, the that support that I had, where there would be somebody to take care of each of you guys. You'd each have your place to go.

Matt:

And then there was just for the record, my mom was smart to not have any babysit my younger brother until way later because I probably would have.

SPEAKER_04:

I called it, I need I needed sibling supervisors, not babysitters. Keep using each other. But anyway, so I would have some, and then there was a little retreat place where I could get a cabin by a creek and have a weekend of solitude walks, thinking, away time. And I gave myself that because I had the support to be able to have the voice sometimes. Of course not, because you were off doing something fun. And why would you care where mom was? Where was mom? You didn't you didn't know you.

Matt:

Wait, I was having fun. When was I having fun? You were with some of your other guy friends, or whoever was it, was it um oh Sherry Thomas and her boys, or you were with there's a whole list of guys or there were Ray Johnson or Kent, or yeah, there's a whole list of gentlemen who were instrumental. I don't know why Derek Ewing's another guy. If his if anyone hears this and matriculates, I don't know, he had an influence on me that by the way, Renee just called me out of the blue wet, and they're all doing fine.

SPEAKER_04:

That's awesome last week.

Matt:

Oh yeah, serendipitous, but anyway. So if anyone hears this and knows them, tell them hey, shout out anyway. Yes, so I so support and giving time for yourself. And kudos to my mom, by the way. Like, I I I had no idea she had a cabin by a lake with a creek. I I kind of no lake, just the creek. Sorry, just a creek.

SPEAKER_04:

Richardson's Richardson's creek.

Matt:

Oh, that makes sense. Okay, yeah, one of those places. So I think that you know, echo 34 years of grief, even you know, looking back and recognizing that that time was instant instrumental in whatever you did in that space, whether it was journaling or thinking or just screaming, right?

SPEAKER_04:

All of it. Yeah, all of it, yeah. Cry. Oh, and then of course the crying. Oh, I'm sending my windows open.

Matt:

You're fine. You're fine.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Um crying in the shower. Sure. That was the other one. That just keeps me up now that I know that you've been.

Matt:

Well, yeah, recently she was like, Did I was like, Well, yeah, like I, you know, I have my moments where I cry, and I don't know how it came up, but I was like, Oh, we knew you were crying in the shower. Like who takes a shower at two in the afternoon after your kids were fighting? A single mom who needs to go cry. That's who we knew. Not every shower equals crying, but many of the odd-timed ones. We were like, That's odd that she's showering from three to four before dinner after we've just exasperated from them. You're fine. After we've exasperated every emotional resource you had. Was there any, can you think back? Was there any grief books or any sort of grief journaling that comes to mind?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, yes, yes. There were little classes I took. Um Newton Bracewell. Sure. And then there was another uh church thing that had groups, and they would they would meet for like uh uh 10 weeks on a Wednesday night, and you would go through, you know, different different parts of stuff like that. Um so yeah, and that that was helpful, but but that helped in that little normal part of people's grief, you know. Um, as I said, every journey is unique, and I had some uniqueness that I had to deal with.

Matt:

Well, and I think that's that's I mean, we talk about that all the time. Is and I like one of my guys uh in the widower group says, you know, he doesn't really like it when people say they understand. He goes, but what widows and widowers can do is we can relate, right? Like I don't know exactly what your situation was like, but I now have way more admiration, respect, and understanding, and I can relate, but like your situation was vastly different than mine. Um, but there's still the component of grief is relatable, right? You can go, like, I get like we talked about the wreck and break that I was able to do when nine widow and widowers got together, and you're like, you're crying over the eggs, and you're like, because they like them extra runny, and you're like, I can relate, like you're like, I get it. I don't, I mean, I I can relate that, and it's totally normal. So I think that that's a that's kind of a key component. Um, did you find I know back then uh we were definitely more involved in the church? Did you find anything specific like in the Bible that helped you with grief or anything that spirit like in that just staying in that back then because that's what we were doing? Did you find anything, any like comfort or con?

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, we've talked about like how the stars align or how the universe or God there were some Bible verses, you know, having to do with widows and and fatherless children, okay. Um, and some um sometimes I would just think Jesus loves me, this I know, because sometimes I hurt so much and I had to feel like there was something out there loving me, and that was the good old one that hugged me. That's all yes, um, so but um uh just that the Christian the Christian community and the the friends that I had through there were very supportive.

Matt:

So I'm I'm picking up a couple of things that I'll probably repeat at the end. But um, so now we'll go now. Well, maybe not now, maybe right before now. I don't know. Um for my life and became interesting. Again, I'd love anyone who knows stats if they can pull figure out what the odds are of a widow or being raised by a widow who um for many different complex and deep reasons never remarried and never dated, what the what the statistical odds are that I would become a widower um before the age of 45-ish. Um, it'll be interesting to find out. It's not many, I don't think. Um so if we go back to like kind of now-ish, and regret's always not the right word. So but I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Is there anything through the 34 years under the wood-a-shuda kuddas or yeah, is there anything that you would reflect back on and go like, you know, or how about this? Is there anything that you wouldn't want me to repeat that you did, or something of that nature, like boy, I really hope that another would or whatever doesn't do this or ends up doing that, or something like that.

SPEAKER_03:

If it is what you truly want, don't put off finding your partner for life.

Matt:

Well, you have a phrase, and I've mentioned it before.

SPEAKER_03:

Um and I think it's only fair that you say it.

Matt:

And so one of the things that uh you said in the kitchen of the house in Elmhurst that is stuck with me, and you remember what it is you said about kind of that situation is what there is nobody to share the memories with. And I hope that line, yeah, I hope that line winds up in a movie because for the folks listening, um that conversation was kind of around like at my mom's age, it's 72 years old, soon to be 72, sorry. There's no one to regale the story of that time when Matt jumped off the roof and rolled, and or the time that Jonathan and Matt did a thing, or the time that Jonathan did, or remember when, because there's my video of my life in my head, my mom's, but there's no third party for her to share those stories with or remember those times with, not just around her kids, but around her own life. And that just that is so heavy. And I know a lot of times people talk about soulmates and they were their person and et cetera. And I know that may now my mom's reflection may not have been the story with my dad, but at the same time, like it's just so important, I think, that people understand that looking back over 34 years, that there are going to be events that you just you don't, there's there was no one even in the room to share them with, which is just heartbreaking when you kind of think about it. And one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation is that for those that are struggling with projecting any sort of life with someone down the road, whether it's trying to do easy math, seven, twenty one, twenty-eight years from now, I'm pretty sure my mom will agree with this with whenever it would have been that her life could have had a partner involved in it, whether it was in the last four years or in the last eight years or in the last 12 years, it probably would have been really, really nice.

SPEAKER_03:

That's so true.

Matt:

Um, and so I that was part of the reason I wanted to have the conversation was that so many times I hear people or I read people's posts and they just can't seem to see anything beyond what's happening right now. And from someone that's looking backwards over 34 years, I think um you uh you should you should really think about, and my mom, unfortunately or fortunately, has finally started to remove some of those obstacles that were in her way at that time, right? Like you said, subconsciously, consciously stayed overweight, made choices for better or for worse, they are what they are, but it sure would have been nice for you, and I agree, I think Jonathan would as well, to have found somebody to have shared some chapter of your life with after. And so I think um, I don't think I I know that it's important that people hear that because I they get stuck in this, but that was then, and I not to go into too many details, but I know my mom romanticized the relationship she had with my dad for a long time, I think. And she's nodding. And because we love the people, they were perfect for us or whatever, but I think over time, and grief doesn't help, and her her upbringing probably didn't help either. She's been able to be a little more truthful with how that was, right? Which has opened up a lot for you, which is good and difficult. So I think that those folks that get a little stuck in the they were so perfect for me. Yeah, they were perfect for you then, right? And I've told this story before, and I hope it doesn't offend too many people. I repeat it, but like Marcy was perfect for me in that that time we were together. Absolutely perfect. She, I'm using air quotes, could walk into a restaurant or bar for a date to meet me now, and I'm not the person I was that she met almost eight years ago now. I'm I have a different, I have another kid, I'm widowed, like a lot has changed. She, in all of her perfect Marciness, could go like, that's not for me now. And so your person was perfect for you and for your journey, but to stop it and say, There's no one else that's ever going to be able to write another chapter with me, I think is a disservice. And I think if people could take it from this and hear your quote of, there is no one to share the memories with at 72 years of age.

SPEAKER_04:

Or to know me and my history, and that we can just sit and one word would they would totally understand everything by just one word I say or something, to know me that well, um, and to know my people and to know about me. And there's nobody else out there that knows about me anymore.

Matt:

No, and it's and it's yeah, go find that person. Yeah. I yes, and so um I think that I think that I think I've asked I think I've asked all the questions I've wanted to ask. Um, oh, there is one more, and I probably should have done this one before because that was probably a good one to end on, but I'll ask this one and I think you've touched on it.

SPEAKER_03:

What has this grief uh taught you about life or about people?

Matt:

Because it's not normal or statistically normal to be a solo parent with two kids under the age of 40. And so you're given in grief, we're given some knowledge in what is what is some knowledge you've taken through your grief process about other people on the planet.

SPEAKER_03:

Don't assume that they have a perfect life.

SPEAKER_02:

True.

SPEAKER_03:

And I don't. You know, um and that uh

SPEAKER_04:

If if they have been so fortunate that they have not had any trials or um heartbreaks or tragedies, um doesn't mean they're not going to. And you just don't know what a person's history is.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct.

SPEAKER_04:

When when it everything just looks oh so perfect. Um so that's just you know, don't assume anything about anybody else you see.

Matt:

Yeah. I also think one of the things I've taken from it is like just because someone has all these other checklists that are now unfathomable for me, like I will never know what it's like to be married to the mother of my child forever. Like that's not gonna be a thing for me. I won't know. Or in our family dynamic, that someone has both their parents still alive. Like I've reflected on the podcast, like guys call their dads for advice. I'm like, holy crap. 34 years later, I realized like that's a thing that I missed out on. Not right, but I just go like, because it was my normal, I didn't know. Um, that just on the outside, because they have all the checks marked, like you don't know that like they might have a super strange relationship with their siblings, or um, they feel invalidated by one of their family members, like they've never been good enough. They have some secrets that that really are heartbreaking that of course they're like, So just because on right, just because on the outside our checklist we're comparing, they're like, Well, their parents are alive and they this and that, and their their wife, like, no, you don't we don't know. So I think that's a very fair one. Um, I will end it with an open-ended do you have anything else that you would like to share with the men and women that listen to this? And um yeah, is there anything else you'd like to say?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I was looking at some of the things to to make note of, and and one thing is just maybe maybe two things. Just be ready to let things go when it's time to let things go.

SPEAKER_04:

And number two is know that wherever you are, you are always doing the best you can at that time. Whether it was in the past or whether it's right now, you are doing the best you can right now.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and that's good. That's good. So your expectations of yourself should be I don't know. You're doing fine. Whatever it is, you're doing fine.

Matt:

I can't argue with that. Any do you have anything else? Do you have anything else?

SPEAKER_04:

No, I don't think so. Um you had some you have some good questions, Matt. It was it was um enjoyable to reflect on a lot. I I'm glad we didn't go down a couple little roads because it always brings tears, you know, stuff like that. But um you know what? It has been an awesome, amazing, good life. I just I can't have been blessed with more wonderful places to live, people to have known, and of course, both my that my stepchildren are all wonderful adults, just great people, loving, giving people. And for all five of my husband's children, they they all are a he would be so proud. He would just be so very proud of every one of you, how successful and happy each of you are wow in your ways. I just know that.

Matt:

So thank you. That's that means a lot. Um, the other thing that blew my mind the other day, he has nine grandchildren and he never met a one. Nine.

SPEAKER_03:

Nine. Okay.

Matt:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

So has it been busy?

Matt:

Well, there's five of us, and one of us still doesn't have any, so technically, um, but yeah, I realized that the other day because the first one was not to go down a different route, but like a tires. The first one was at the funeral, just we didn't know he was coming yet.

SPEAKER_04:

We were pregnant, yeah. We didn't know they were pregnant.

Matt:

So, how crazy is that? I the other day, I don't know if I was counting nieces or nephews for me, and then I switched over to my mindset, and I was like, Dad had nine grandkids and he never met a single one of them. Yeah, that was I was I well, they've been around so long I didn't really well for you, yeah. Right, they've been around forever. So, but yeah, I appreciate you saying that too because there are times that I I'm sure Jonathan probably wonders too, and maybe the I've never asked, but I assume the other siblings might ask themselves. I wonder what my dad would say or think. And it is nice to know.

SPEAKER_04:

And I have to say, I think he would have been a surprise at the women.

Matt:

Uh, that's fair. That is very fair. I think that's a fair assessment. Again, we won't go into too much of what that means, but yeah, yeah, that's right. Uh, mom, thank you so very much for um for everything.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, you know what a parent love is, don't you? You give everything for your daughters. I gave everything for my sons, and I will never stop. And that's what it's about. I love you.

Matt:

I love you too. Thank you so much.