Episode 2.10 Dating Again

“You’re not only experimenting with dating, you’re experimenting with your new self,” says Ken Brown as he joins The Solo Dad Podcast along with Ben Janoski to discuss what it means to return to the dating world as young widowers with children. Some of what’s discussed, such as ghosting, how soon to meet in person and getting catfished, will be familiar to anyone navigating the contemporary dating world. More unique is what they dub the ‘picture purge,’ which is how to feature mementos of your dead wife in a way that doesn’t erase her from your daily life, while not scaring away your new partner, and allowing you to have control over the space which now belongs to only you. 

Ben brings up an excellent point that often the guilt and hesitation you feel, or even the words you put into your deceased loved one’s mouth about dating someone new is really an emotional safety mechanism, because you don’t want to go through the devastation of loving and losing someone again. The only answer is just to get out there and do it, let it be weird and awkward, and see how you feel. Observing how a potential new partner acts around the presence of your loved one’s memory can be a test as to whether they are worth dating. 

There is always space for your loved one even as you continue your new life with a new love. Still it’s important to carve out your own space and continue to be happy in the way your loved one would want you to.

Quotes

· “Guys tend to be fixers. You see a problem, you want to fix it. Well, I’m lonely. How do I fix it? Go on a date. How do you date now? Apps.” (5:55-6:09 | Ben)

· “People who are serious about getting into a relationship know that there’s no substitute for face-to-face.” (36:44-36:50 | Ken)

· “A lot of guys don’t want to disappoint. We’re guys, we want to pick up the check. It’s old-fashioned, but it’s ingrained in our psyche. We don’t want to admit to feeling that maybe there is something holding us back, or we’re still thinking about something else. Part of that is being on the journey.” (43:49-44:29 | Ken)

· “Ghosting feels like more work than just being honest.” (48:32-48:36 | Matt)

· “To be that self-aware to know whether you’re truly ready or not ready to date would be astronomical. You’re going to make some mistakes, it’s going to be awkward and weird, but you’re going to have to do it to test it.” | (56:16-56:36 | Ben)

· “There are all sorts of safety mechanisms that our bodies will create for us. Mine was a general numbness, and that’s where dates would pick up on my not being emotionally available. Because you’re not projecting or acknowledging certain things.” (1:04:45-1:04:57 | Ben)

· “You’re not only experimenting with dating, you’re experimenting with your new self.” (1:08:22-1:08:26 | Ken) 

· “If you’re looking for someone in your life that’s going to be a partner to you, you’re looking for a person who’s going to be accepting of—especially with kids—the existing relationship that’s going to carry on with the person you lost.” (1:32:41-1:33:20 | Ben)

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Transcript

Ben: 0:31

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Solo Dad Podcast tonight. We have Matt. Hello. How are you gentlemen doing?

Matt: 0:40

Good. Very good. Glad to be here. Nice. Very glad we can all hop on and have this conversation. So looking forward. It's been a while since we've had three of us. Yeah.

Ben: 0:51

Yeah. And we've been getting a lot of questions on in one of our groups lately, uh, with regards to some of the things surrounding dating and dating post-loss and dating with kids and kind of how that all plays in together. And I think this one specifically that's been really kind of grinding is um the guilt that can arise and show and present itself sometimes, depending on where you are, how you are, and where what you are and what's going on. And I thought it would be a really good idea for us to kind of bounce that idea around tonight. Um, what do you guys think?

Matt: 1:30

I think it's a fantastic idea. And I like the fact that not I don't want to be too big of a spoiler alert, but that all three of us are kind of in different arcs of the dating cycle story. I don't know, journey. How about that? Journey together. Journey it's a pilgrimage, folks. It's not just a journey. So I like the fact that we can kind of bring kind of the different parts. And you're right, it's it's been it percolates quite often about I'd say the turbulence of going into dating again, whether it's guilt or it's you know, the logistics, like you said, or if it's shocking awe.

Ben: 2:07

Yeah. I mean, for like especially for some of us that have been not dating for a very long time. Yeah. Like that, like for some of the guys that are in that 15 to 20 year window of being in a relationship coming out and then presenting the yeah, the whole new dating scenario, like every every everything is new, different, shocking. I mean, like, it's just welcome to Tinder and Bumble and any other app that you want to download.

SPEAKER_08: 2:39

Do you have a menu available of uh potential people in my neighborhood?

SPEAKER_05: 2:46

It reminds me of that uh opening scene to um oh what was that movie with uh it was with I think it was uh the vampire movie, and it was like the titty twister, and it was like uh Teach Marin, and he was like, Welcome, you can get all this you want this type of oh that that type of oh you're right.

Matt: 3:08

It was it was he was doing the the door guy at uh from Death Still Dawn.

SPEAKER_05: 3:11

It's the uh yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_06: 3:16

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_05: 3:17

Yeah, yeah. And it was, but yeah, like when you're like, okay, I guess I'm gonna date. How am I gonna do this? Oh, it's all online, no problem. And you're like, oh, no problem. And then you like this is crazy.

Matt: 3:30

Yeah. So why don't why don't we start with why don't we start at the beginning? Like, why don't we start with like how like what type of checklist, either looking back or in that moment of going, like, I think I'm ready. And I I'll I'll start. Mine was really it is a year plus out, and all and I and I can reflect now. I was ready to date, and I noticed I say was, right? I was ready to date to not be lonely, right? I had had enough of it being just me and my at that time almost two-year-old at that point, or no, over two year old. And so I was ready to date, but not to be emotionally open, ready for like a very serious and deep committed relationship. And so I started out by doing because and I'm different than you two guys, by doing the exact same stuff I did to meet Marcy because it went well the last time I went out to try to date. It and it ended in a wonderful relationship. The relationship didn't end the way any of us thought ours would, but so I went with the same criteria, kind of fooling myself of like, well, I'm gonna do it, you know, with an intention to look for a relationship. But then as I went through, and some of the feedback I got from some of my dates was you're not emotionally ready. And you kind of go, I'm sitting at the table, I'm dressed. I showed up on time, I did ask all the right questions, I'm here. How much more and hindsight was and still is, I'm not quite emotionally ready. We can go more into like what that means for each of us. But so my checklist was I'm ready, let's let's go out. And then it was uh through some, and we can maybe stack rank these, maybe just in the show notes, uh, which apps work better. And I I don't want to go down that hole because there are so many. And I think some of them are regional, and I think some of them kind of depend on what exactly you're looking for and what you're willing to tolerate in the time and effort you have to spend to go through stuff. So um, so yeah, so that's where I started. I started, I knew I was ready. I I took off I one of the first times I went out, I took off my wedding ring, which was really bizarre, but I I could it was just ready for me to try to date again with and again reflecting back, going like, oh, I was ready to try, but I wasn't ready to be open to really being in a committed relationship.

Ben: 5:47

Yeah, I uh somewhat somewhat I I think I know I like I'm a like I I think I've from talking to a lot of different guys, like guys kind of tend to be fixers, right? So you see a problem, you want to try to fix it, and I ran across one like, well, I'm lonely. Initially it's like, fix it, is like go on a date. How do you do a date now? App okay, because also I was like so busy and like you're not gonna organically meet somebody when you uh do like three things with with all the kids' schedules or whatever. Um but I had never done it before. Like just like you and I like I met going to college, online wasn't a thing. We were together for 17 years, and so it was like coming into this company completely fresh. Um and with just like, well, okay, I'm trying to I guess I'm gonna do this. And just like dating was awkward. Like it just like the whole like the the get to know you, like the whole like it's a it's uh it's a like it's like any other part of your body, it's it's uh it's a muscle that you have to like awaken and kind of get back into. And it was just so kind of weird and foreign. I was like, okay, well, if I got it to do this, then this is where I need to go. And catfish and all the things, because I just wasn't prepared for what online was. So like there was this massive learning curve for online waking up what dating actually was and doing the whole get to know somebody thing again, like all of those processes. And then like kind of same same same thing I was mad. Like when I first got out, um there was a like a couple that were like same thing, like, uh, you're not quite like like emotionally, like one of them said, like you have a black cloud around you. Because I don't call like we definitely have some more earthy uh people here in Colorado than like so. There's so like there's that kind of vibe. And it was there was one that said I was like, wow, that's kind of a that's kind of a smack to the face. I was like, well, maybe maybe maybe there is something. So like and that's when I transitioned over to a different therapist, and sure enough, guess what wasn't quite emotionally available as as as it might present itself. But so it yeah, I but like at the same time, like the active dating didn't bother me. Like the the going out and doing it and like meeting people and meeting trying to like meet people like, well, am I gonna see this person again? Like that kind of thing. Yeah.

Matt: 8:29

So I was gonna say when you said that and can I um maybe you can say this because you guys both lost um your wives. We right, we say tragically, right? Uh quickly and the surprise. Uh sounds bad. Um and mine was terminal. So Marcy actually, we had very small conversations about like moving on again. And so I know in the group, sometimes people are like, Well, I'm not sure if they want new, or you'll hear in other groups like, like, right? Like, that's I think where the seed can sometimes come from. Marcy was very clear that she was, and it breaks my heart that the sentence she kind of came up with was me seeing you happy again, wherever I am, will make me happy again. And I'm like, right? So I kind of had permission. Did you wrestle with like would my would my wife want this for me? Like, I also knew that even if Marcy never said that, I was like, Well, she would want me to be happy again and also like create a family unit for Blair. So, like, did you was that something you wrestled with at all?

Ben: 9:29

Or no, uh like this, I mean this might sound kind of uh I don't know, like cold or whatever, but like she's she's not here anymore. You know, and and so whatever potential like mental imagery input that she could have had, like it's that's all like fabricated in your own brain. Like at this point, like whatever decision you make at this point is uh making for you, making for the family. It's then like if there's any, and I can kind of like go uh kind of where I'm thinking with this a little bit further on, but like there's like I said, granted it was very quick and it was a surprise, and so there were some things that kind of transitioned with that, but the idea of going, okay, well I don't want to be lonely anymore didn't uh transition or trickle down going, well, would Gwen want me to be lonely? Like because like she's not she wasn't part of the picture anymore. You know, and like and I think it's kind of callous and cool to kind of say that, but then like when it's uh a matter of fact, like that, like it's just you and whatever family or non-family that's around that plays in. Like it's it's up to you and your decision and where you want to go with your life at this point.

SPEAKER_06: 10:56

Um, I think that's where some people battle with that guilt is uh kind of being able to separate those two areas.

Ben: 11:09

Yeah.

Matt: 11:09

What about you? What about you, Ken?

SPEAKER_05: 11:12

Did you it was that kind of similar for you, or what was Yeah, I mean it was sort of a like I'm a Christian, so I do relate to back to sort of you know, our whole, you know, vows and everything that we entered into as a married couple. Like we, you know, till death to his part. And one of my good friends who is like, he's like, you know, we met. Um, you know, he's the godfather, both of them are godparents to to the boys. And we met for coffee. I remember this was about like three or four months after, and you know, he and we just sat down and he's like, you know, you've fulfilled your you know, your duty and your vow to Leanne. Like, you know, you you've done that, she's no longer here with us, and that's kind of part of the thing. Like, and I was like, I know, like I I do, I felt like that, but I was like, at the same time, you're still wrestling with it. Um, I didn't feel a lot of guilt, kind of the same, it's sort of similar to what Ben was saying. Like, and maybe that was part of because I do remember us having conversations, you know, those flippant conversations. Like we've been married for like, you know, we were almost married for 18 years. So and and been going out, we've been together for 21. So we we had that sort of conversation where you're like, wow, you know, and I was the one was the one to be like, Well, I'm the guy, I'm probably gonna die before you. So just so you know.

SPEAKER_08: 12:55

Go ahead, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 12:56

Yeah, just so you know.

SPEAKER_08: 12:57

We had the same conversation.

SPEAKER_05: 12:59

I want you to be, I want you to be happy. So if you find somebody, that's great. Like, I honestly I would support that. So, and it was the same, you know, we sort of you you always have that conversation to, you know, tongue in cheek, and you don't ever really think it's gonna come into play, and then you know, or at least not come into play in the next, you know, not until you're like in your 70s or something. Yeah, but um, yeah, so I guess that was sort of the main thought process I went through, um, you know, realizing it. But at the same time, like I was uh it's funny you mentioned that about your wedding ring. I didn't I took my wedding ring off probably yeah, within like the first month. It didn't feel right to be wearing it, but I took her wedding ring and actually I I went out and bought a chain right away that I I wanted to get something, and I wore her wedding ring for almost a year. Um, like her band. Yeah, remember that. Um so yeah, I don't know, just wanted to have a piece. And you know what? It was before it was before I had my tattoo done. Um, but I think I just wanted to have something close, right? Like you just want to have one of those T things, uh, sort of thing. But now actually a lot of like it's actually interesting because I'm coming into, and I know this is jumping our conversation, but I'm sort of in that in this process. You know, Julia's moved in. We're you know, living in the same house now. It's her house as well, going through a lot of purging and a lot of stuff that I haven't I didn't get to at yet, but I am going through now because I'm forced to. Like I need to make room, you know, like she's moving in her stuff. I have to go through all like we had to go through all the closet stuff and bring stuff out and stuff like I was like, oh yeah, I do have to go through that. And uh, and that process is really kind of I feel good about it, but it's like it's it's that whole, like it's pushing you along. Um, you know, as if you were on your own, you wouldn't really be moving at that pace. You'd be like, eh, it's put away, it's in a box, it's in a coat, you know, I'm gonna deal with it when I deal with it. But now I'm dealing with it. Yeah, like you know, Julia's like, okay, so it's a good time. I think, you know, we've got some spare time. I think we should uh, you know, sort through this stuff, or you know, I'll help you with anything you want. And I'm like, yeah, you can't really help me until I get to a point where I can, yeah, you can help me with this, but I gotta go through this stuff. It's me. And she's like, Yeah, I know. You you're the one that has to do it. And um, I guess that that what I'm trying to tie that back to is that I look at my tattoo a lot of times. I pick stuff up and go, yeah, I'm holding on to this. Why am I holding on to it? Is it something that I want to have for the boys? Is my first question. If it doesn't pass that, I'm like, okay, do I really if I want to keep a record of it, snap a pic of it, I'll I'll put a pic of it on my phone. And then after that, it's like I kind of a lot of stuff I go, you know what? I've got the things I need. Like, I've already done, you know, and I and actually it's I don't know, it's a weird mind thing, but a lot of times it does come back to my tattoo and some of the things that I I've kept that I have put away. And I'm like, nope, I've got enough. Like, that's what I need. I've already done like it satisfies sort of the mental checklist.

Matt: 16:45

Um I was gonna say, what a beautiful thing of her moving in and this uh double meaning of making space, right? Like that's really cool. Where someone in my situation, I don't have to make space for anybody. Right. So and Ben people can't see Ben was pointing. I'm like, yeah, I know. I don't I don't have to deal with it. It's in a box, and I can deal with it whenever I want. I don't know. She really has a box in the basement. In a box in the basement.

SPEAKER_05: 17:10

I don't deal with it because no one's coming to it. That rubber made, I know where it is, it's it's sealed up.

Matt: 17:16

It's there waiting for me to deal with it on my own time, which apparently three and a half years in, I still haven't quite tackled some stuff. But um, so I you know what's it you kind of touched on a couple of things, and and Ben, I'd be interested to hear like because I know you went through a bit of a a picture. I know the big one was like the picture purge, right? And some decorating too in your house, Ben. And the decorating thing, yeah. Yeah, I have, and I love this, and and I think you think it for the stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 17:43

That's a good subject, the picture purge.

Matt: 17:45

The picture purge, that's a whole nother, but yeah, but that's a whole different part. We're trying to stay on dating. But I was gonna ask, what are the things to do with dating? It does right, guys. Let's oh, well, actually, I can come. I think you're right, you can't have those all around the house, especially uh if you bring them to the house. Oh, yeah. So I was this so this is where I was gonna go. What are the things I call it hidden in plain sight, right? So that I have some things that if you walk into my house, I don't say a word, you would never know that Marcy painted that over there, or that's from the honeymoon. Like you wouldn't, it's framed, it looks, it just looks like a piece of art. I don't have to explain it, it's just there. So, kind of like your wedding ring on the on the neck or her her band on the necklace. What are like Ben, do you have some like because I think they're our counselor, or I I guess yeah, Ben and I share the same one, but uh was selling like for a long time. I left the wedding rings in my in my in my sock drawer, or actually I think they technology with my underwear drawer, but so every morning they're rattling around, they're just sitting in there. Oh, and he well, and he explained, I just hadn't taken to the safety deposit yet box yet.

SPEAKER_05: 18:46

But you can hear him, but that's what he said.

Matt: 18:48

He goes, That little reminder, it's almost like, oh, there you are, right? Like it's this little nudge that right because rather than just ripping the band-aid off and you have this, you know, this gaping wound, it kind of allows it to go slower and it's like this little nudge. So long way to get to, you don't have to go into like details, but like when you were going through, and Ken, you're going through another purge right now. Ben, when you're kind of like redecorating, were there things where you're like, you know what? What was the process of when you left it up, both thinking about dating? Like, is this okay to stay out? Or was it more like, no, I like this because it reminds me of to the total gwenness in my life or whatever? Or I mean, we've got we've got kids reminded of our kids of our people.

Ben: 19:29

Yeah, I I it was so I kept one thing for myself. And that's actually really all I needed. Um because it kind of encompassed a lot. And so it was it was a really nice and so it was a sort of plus I kinda like I don't know, I don't I'm kind of more of the minimalist side of things. It was like kind of getting rid of a lot of the pictures and things, which I had kind of glazed over about um and uh which I would definitely go through your house when you start dating. And like we had family pictures everywhere in the house, and she was in a ton of them. And like they've been up forever, so I didn't realize and then you bring a potential well, you bring a date home or potential whatever, and they see the pictures of your late wife everywhere. And it's just it's a uh it's a different mood at that point. So I would I would kind of do uh I'd definitely do a once over on those. And I like I like and I I love the idea of the in-plane sight thing. But like I have one thing for me. Um and then I what I did is I let the I had the kids uh do areas for them that was important for them in their in their area. So like I got what I needed, the kids got what they needed, and then I put uh kid pictures up, I put family pictures of me and the kids up, and so like I kind of transitioned from that into our new path. Um and that way, and I did to be like I also like um I did more art versus photos over. Like I did like I've done some other stuff since, but like that's kind of where I went. Um and it like it felt I don't know, felt cleaner. It felt new, felt like me, which was a nice also kind of transition over. So you still get you get the when you need that touch point, you've got it available. But at the same time, you're like, okay, well, I'm creating a new life for myself and my kids. What's it gonna look like? Where's it gonna go? How are we gonna do this? And we were able to start that process as well, and then that kind of filters in with with the dating thing. Cause then you're like, you come in, you're like, okay, this is a solo dad with three kids. And then like there's like, and he's obviously like, or not that, but like he's like, okay, there's dad kids and like that's what it is, and it's a whole different kind of scene. So um, I think that would be because there's like lots of talk online about like photos and how you should do it and where you should do it and how you should take it over. Like it everybody has their own prerogative, and I'm not about to say one raise better than another, or how like different sites.

SPEAKER_05: 22:23

Yeah, and I and I totally think Ben the key thing that you said there was, you know, you did it and it made you feel. How did it make you feel? You evaluated it and you sat back and you're like, yeah, this feels right to me, it feels a little bit cleaner. You know, I've done my special, uh, you know, I've I've selected certain photos, I've let the kids do their thing. We've got things in their bedroom, which is exactly what I did.

SPEAKER_07: 22:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 22:50

And I and I think that I think that makes sense too. Like if you have someone you're dating, you bring them home, your your home has got these pictures in it, um, you know, of you, your kids, you know, the odd one maybe of of your late wife, and then they go into their your kids' rooms and there's more of of your what your late wife. So that's and that's and then that makes sense to them. Yeah. They're like, oh yeah, this is the kids' room. Yeah. This is important to them. This is part of it, right? And it sort of underlines that. So yeah, I I really agree with that. And but at the same time, I think, yeah, and exactly what I did is I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for this. I feel like I'm ready for dating, so I'm gonna try this and see how it makes me feel. Yeah.

Matt: 23:40

That that was one of the things I was thinking too, is like whether you've done it or not, like we um, you know, uh we'll go, we'll just call it redecorating your house, if we will, right? You get it. I I love the phrase, and I think I stole it from somebody. Like, you our life, your married couple life, our life, I'm using air quotes, is no longer our life. It's now your life to go live, right? And it's a weird transition to hit because all of a sudden people can't see. I have a blank wall behind me that's got stuff taped on it, but it's gonna be a gallery wall. It's my gallery wall, it's the wall that's gonna make me happy when I look at it. And it's stuff that I want and it's in my office and it's what I want. It's not, it has nothing, not that it won't be anything to my late wife, but like it's stuff for me because that's what I can do in this situation because it is my life now. But I was the other thing I was gonna say was um, do you think that which which comes first? Being emotionally ready to date and then you go through this stuff, or are you getting physically ready to date so that then you can be emotionally ready to date? Like or is it stumble into it? Like because do you think one no, do you think one happens before the other? Like, do you think taking down the pictures then allows you to be emotionally?

Ben: 24:51

To be successful, you have to be emotionally available. I I mean you can you can do uh uh cheap physical dates or whatever, like to get that contact or superficial, yeah. Like the very super like you can skate through and do a very surface level relationship without being emotionally available. People do it all the time, widowed or not widowed. I mean, like I mean it it is a demo married. That's right.

SPEAKER_05: 25:20

So divorced, yeah, it's the divorce dad. Sorry, divorce dads. I know you guys get a lot of you get thrown under the bus a lot.

Ben: 25:31

But yeah, it's like I think to to actually have uh a relationship go anywhere other than like that surface level, you have to be emotionally available. And the only way you're gonna find out if you're emotionally available is to do a trial run and like see how it feels, and um and then if you're ready or not, and if like if you are you are like it's just you can't think yourself into ready.

SPEAKER_05: 26:00

You can't fake it either. No, you have to just do it.

Matt: 26:03

You can't you can be true to yourself, you can for a while, and if yeah, eventually someone's gonna pick up on it, whether it's a date or one of your friends or family are gonna be like, Are you really ready? Um the emotional physical part, I was gonna the other thing I was gonna uh uh say was um back to to getting things ready. One of the red flags, and I know we've talked about this on previous ones, is if you've kind of done a once over and you've given it a try, one of the red flags is anytime someone doesn't have respect for what you've already done and they're like, you know, take it all down, or why is this over here? Why do the boys have a memory box? Like, just I want to put an asterisk on. If you're on a date or you're getting serious and someone comes to your house and they're completely disrespectful to the relationship you had, they're probably not the person for you. But I'd also take a moment in time and reassess maybe you're like, Am I real have have I done enough to be ready, whether it's physically with this stuff in the house or whatever, emotionally, you may want to take it. Oh, yeah. But I just want to I want to give credence that like there is still a sacred area that no one should be allowed to be like, well, it's ridiculous that you have that picture up. You're like, no, it's not like see it. Right. So I just want to know. You're ridiculous. Yeah. It's like, and here's your here's your that's right. Here's here's your parting basket gift. So, but I think you're Ben and I think you're right though, that that it's that whole thing of like, and you have to then try it and be honest with yourself about like kind of the assessment after you've dated, right? Like, I haven't I haven't asked the group, but I can't imagine it's a very high percentage of like I went on one date and I found I found my next person. And I'd be like, wow, that's impressive. Like I don't right. So I think the other thing people should that are listening should realize is like whether it's been 15 years or someone like me that was actively dating for quite a while before meeting Marcy and hadn't been in a committed relationship for a long time, was that like it's still a process. You still have to go back out and and and try it and ask yourself, you know, what where's what are my intentions? Like, and I don't want to be like, you know, what are your intentions, but like what are your intentions? Where are you trying to go? Like, and you're a different person, whether it's been 15 years or five years, like you have a kid, you've had this massive loss in your life, it changes you, right? So I think that's another thing as you venture into the dating, and I think uh we can go into that. Like, what were oh, actually, I want to do mine first. What were your first dates like? Because I got stood up on mine. You looked really good though. Like I looked freaking high. You looked amazing. And by the way, I smoked my Amex card in in Chicago. I went complete, I went nuts. So that person missed out on a good time. So, but your first dates, do you guys can you kind of recall like yeah, like what like what were the feelings or like I because and I think I may have, I may have like, what is it, jumped the shark or whatever? Like my first date wasn't again the time. I was a train ride into the city, I went all out. Like it was like we were meeting downtown, deck to the nines. We're gonna hit this bar for pre-drinks, right? For pre-drinks for four dinner, and we were going to a restaurant. Like, I'm pretty sure the reservation was at like RPM state guy. Like, we were going out. And I and looking back, I'm like, that may have been not the right way to go about this. We may have wanted to dial back. So, what was like kind of what were your first? And I don't I because I had talked so long to this person, I felt really the nerves were more like excited to meet a new person face to face, if you will, right? But I wasn't like uber nervous about going on a date because we'd had plenty of conversation interactions, you know.

SPEAKER_06: 29:40

Yeah, I was gonna say you texted and quite a while.

Ben: 29:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I I don't like I wasn't nervous, but like it's a date, you go to dinner.

Matt: 29:49

I mean, that's it'd been a while since you'd been on one.

Ben: 29:53

I mean, I've never hopefully date our wise. Like it'd have been like 19 years since I've been on a date, right? So it's like, well, um, I can't take her to the local pizza joint anymore. But it's like like because it was in college, like it was just like we went to a like a social or something, and then we went dancing, like, hey, you want to go my formal next week?

SPEAKER_08: 30:14

Cool, all right. So now we're we yeah, right, awesome.

Ben: 30:16

But like it was like so all right, so I chatted with this like hot men on text, like, well we we could carry a conversation, let's go to dinner, like like and then like much like anything that you're coming in brand new, like there's a learning curve and and I stumbled into every possible one. Um and just but as you go, you learn and you adjust and you adapt and you go and you learn, and it's um it's just such a different beast now. And just in in every aspect of it. Um that and it it wasn't awkward. I mean, like, because it was like I was like, I'm going on a date. That's what we do for a date. This is what we're gonna do. It's gonna be great. We're gonna have dinner, we're gonna drink, we're gonna hang out, we're gonna do whatever, and then see where it goes. And uh, you know, it was a brick wall right out of the gate because I mean because of all the things. All the things. Well, do tell. Do tell. Oh my gosh. Let's just say, um what was the first angles? Um and so I get it.

Matt: 31:32

Like just we've talked about this before, and I I don't understand. I don't get it. If you know you're gonna meet the person, why are you using the picture from your now we're all over 40. Why are you using the picture from your sorority pledge week?

unknown: 31:50

Yeah.

Ben: 31:50

Like because by the time I talk to him for a little while, like it'll be fine when I actually meet him. Like, it's like I love starting on a lie. It's gonna be so great. Everything's successful when you start off really low and you come in with a lie, because then you can just build it and just go from there.

Matt: 32:08

Like it's well, you know, and it's yeah, like it's like it's like men who lie about their height. I've heard about this from some of our widow friends where they walk in the bar and like you, sir, are not six foot. Like, I'm like, why would you lie about your height? Like, what do you plan to do? Wear Doc Martins and stand up hill for the next 40 years. So what but like I want to give Ken what was what was your like you went on your first date, your first and they actually lucky guys, they actually showed up for theirs. Um what was what was yours like? What was yours like? I I can actually kind of but my actual first face-to-face spin was very much similar where I was like, Oh, oh, your little we'll see if he comes back real quick. Um, was very similar with the go for it. No, you're frozen for a second.

SPEAKER_05: 32:54

Go, bud.

Matt: 32:55

Go.

SPEAKER_05: 32:56

Was that back? Okay. Um no, my first interaction was actually just uh a late night coffee. Like it was a coffee date. We didn't even do dinner at first. But we've been chatting for quite a bit, like uh, and I'd used the platform Bumble originally, and so there was a lot of inter you know, chat and interaction back and forth and a couple phone calls. So yeah, like like you said, I didn't uh not I didn't feel nervous a lot until we were kind of like well, I guess it was coffee, and then it was like we you know, we and we hit it off, which was good, and we chatted, and then it was like, and then we both agreed to go like sit in the car and like chat some more, and then we were like, you know, making out a little bit. I was like, this is like holy throwback to like 90, like yeah, like high school parking five high school parking. I was like, holy shit, this is weird, but at the same time, good.

Ben: 34:03

Yeah, but good thing, it feels so good, just yeah, yeah.

Matt: 34:07

But the fact that someone found you pretty that's what always blows me away. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04: 34:12

Someone's like exactly you find me what in the heck is a real live person that's a female that actually is into me.

Matt: 34:20

Well, here's where I'm curious, and I can't, and I think that may have been another mistake. And I don't I don't want to. What do you feel like the right time frame from true connection? Know that they're not a bot, that they're someone you can carry a conversation with. You go from because my wife said one of the reasons she liked when we because we met online that um she liked my profile or whatever. She goes, he went from like texting on the app, if you will, to like let's have a phone conversation. She goes, Yeah, most guys would never do that. And I was like, Well, that's dumb, but that's my own. But yeah, so what do you feel like from true interaction, like through connection, to actually sitting down to a date? What do you feel? Because I also realized I think one of my hindsights was we had texted and talked so long that I think like I don't want to say you want to hurry to close the deal. No, yeah, no, no, it's not a bad, but the meetup.

SPEAKER_05: 35:15

But no, yeah, 100%, because the difference between well, the the girl that I was just referencing, my first, you know, person that I dated, Kelly, you know, we had done we had chatted a lot and talked on the phone a lot before, you know, and then what it was like it was like a continuous like on the phone a lot and all the I remember getting AirPods just for that reason. Like, I gotta get some AirPods because I I gotta be able to be hands-free to be spend this much time on the phone. Um But that was the big difference in Julia, like when I met Julia, she was like within the first probably 20 minutes of chatting back and forth and then like exchanging pleasantries, sort of like healing each other a little bit. And then it was like, Yeah, let's uh, you know, are you free for a phone call? Yeah. And then right away it was like, Are you well let's let's meet up and have coffee? And it was like, you know, down to business, like in terms of and at that point, like, okay, fast forward, that's like a big jump. But at that point, I was like, Yeah, I was sick of this online, yeah, perpetuating, you know, oh, texting, oh, maybe we'll talk on the phone, and then they like I was like, no, if you're serious about entering into a relationship, these are the kind of things, this is what people want. Yeah, people that are serious about getting to know someone know that there's no substitute for face-to-face.

Ben: 36:51

Yeah, because you need to have a conversation with somebody, like texting, like I'll send you a text here, and then you'll respond back later. Like, there's no flow, there's no connection, there's no context.

Matt: 37:01

Like to be able to sit down, you what whether it's a video, because during COVID, like whether it's a video or if it's phone or in person, like sitting down with somebody and having a conversation is so so quickly, I think is what and I mean I think everyone needs to be comfortable, but like I think quicker to off the app conversation and meeting. I mean, we all have live. I mean, that's a good lip stuff. But that's what I think shows you whether you're serious about the person or you're serious about trying to fight, because the other thing I would say for hopefully most of the people listening and that enjoy this wacky thing that we do is that you had a we'll say at bare minimum, a good relationship to all the way to an amazing relationship with your wife that ended in a fashion no one could have envisioned, which means you created a really good thing once before. So why wouldn't you want to do that again? And we're not, and I know we're not that old, but we're not that young. We've done it once before. So why can't we go do it again? And there's no reason to wait, you know, text for 10 days, call for two weeks, and have your first date. I mean, that's a month from the first time you both like like each other, right?

SPEAKER_06: 38:16

Like you're like, that's exhausting, seems ridiculous, right?

Matt: 38:20

I would agree. Now, I I would also say if you haven't dated in 15 years, you're probably gonna go on several first and second dates with several different people to iron out some stuff. Yeah, yeah. I think that's true.

SPEAKER_06: 38:34

Oh, yeah.

Matt: 38:35

Um so so anything else about kind of like the first dates, and um, I thought maybe we could also because you mentioned a couple. Um well, I mean better better apps, just because we mentioned real quick. Was there anything? Yeah, what else? Like I was just kind of wondering, like I've written down some apps we'd already we've all mentioned during this, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 38:54

The the one that so I went from Bumble to um was it? Uh oh man, I haven't I haven't thought about it in a while. Uh Elite Singles, right? Um, and I did I did do a bit of research about using it. I'm not trying to plug this app because believe me, there are some cons to this app. Uh it's it's got a really crappy, like basically phone. Like put it this way, if you have it on your phone as the app and you go onto your laptop, you get to see there's way more usability when it's on your your actual laptop or your or your PC or whatever compared to the phone. And it's a I think it's a German app. I think it's obviously a Germany, like in Europe.

SPEAKER_06: 39:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 39:43

Uh that design it. But anyway, yeah, so the usability factor is really not that great. But the reason I did like it was because it actually made you uh go into quite a bit of detail about yourself and the algorithm. All the stuff that you have to fill out, it takes quite a bit of time and it costs a bit of money. Like it's about I think it's minimum if you're gonna if for whatever subscription, it's like minimum like 60 bucks or a hundred bucks, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_06: 40:13

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 40:14

So you have to buy into this thing. It's more than like 10 bucks, basically, like bumble or something like that.

Matt: 40:21

Which I'd also agree is how serious are you, right? Like that's another.

SPEAKER_05: 40:24

Yeah. So it's another little, it's just another little level for people, a hoop to for people to jump through, and you're like, okay, well, you're hoping that it's gonna weed out some people, right? Um did you do that on that front?

Matt: 40:37

Did you do anything on hinge?

Ben: 40:39

No, I haven't done you know what I didn't hinge for a hot minute.

SPEAKER_05: 40:42

Yeah, I didn't do it. Like hinge is just new, it's fairly new, isn't it? It is, yeah, it is, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I haven't I haven't even seen it.

unknown: 40:50

Okay.

Ben: 40:51

Uh yeah, no, like it was because I did Bumble and Hinge and Tinder right out of the gate. Um boy. Well, I mean, like if you're if you're gonna dabble, dabble. Dabble, right? If you're gonna, I mean, don't don't just wipe right if you've never been online before, yeah, let's see. Let's see what this is all about.

SPEAKER_05: 41:14

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 41:22

Oh, yeah, those three.

Ben: 41:23

Yeah, uh kind of the older players, yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't like at the same time, like you're talking about like dedication. Our our buddy uh came into it going like, Yep, this is what I want, this is what I need. Yep, and he went he went full tilt. He went, he was involved with yeah, how many per nine nine different ones? No idea 400 bucks a month, like the subscriptions, and he was just like and you know what?

Matt: 41:50

Even it may sound crazy to hear it, and I think we're we just maybe won't use his name right now. But um, what I was gonna say is too, is like, but that shows his intention, yeah, yeah.

Ben: 41:58

He's like, This is it. This he goes, he was all in. I'm all in, yeah.

Matt: 42:03

He he was like, you know, and he also and he I've I've re-listened to our our chat we had with him like over a year ago now, but he was like, he also knew he goes, I knew I wanted a partner, so why would I wait? Like, why grief? No grief. Like, whether it took me two dates or took me 300 dates to get there, you gotta start at some point. I think that's another part of he's so pragmatic, uh he is, he is. He's also a very smart guy, too.

Ben: 42:30

So, like, I mean, he's like, Yeah, why don't I leave an option now? Like, we're gonna try every single option, we're gonna go through everything and like not miss something.

Matt: 42:38

Which you know what? That's not the worst thing in the world.

SPEAKER_05: 42:42

No, and I and I and I but I and I highly respect him for that because yeah, like he knew what he wanted and he went after it.

Matt: 42:50

And he was like, And spoiler work alert, it worked out really well. Right. He's he is very, very happy. So you but you didn't do any of the you didn't do any of the old ones, you didn't do any of the legacy ones, no match or e-harmony or anything, Ken?

SPEAKER_06: 43:06

No, I didn't do uh I didn't do match or e-harmony.

SPEAKER_05: 43:14

Um yeah, no, I didn't do any of those. Uh I kind of like I kind of left out with elite singles. And why would you keep going? Yeah, and and I mean that was the thing. I was remembering like Kelly when I broke up with Kelly uh after about five months, and then I probably dated it's probably like three dates. And actually, I was gonna say, like, you know what? The other thing with the with all with the guilt sort of side of of dating and dealing with that, I think a lot of guys don't want to uh disappoint. You know, we're guys. We're we we wanna pick up the check, we wanna we wanna we wanna be the you know the the male, you know, it's old fashioned, but it is it's ingrained in our sort of uh psyche a lot. And I think we don't want to admit to feeling, you know, oh we're not maybe there is something holding us back, or there is we we are thinking about something else, or you know, we're we're we're trying to figure out figure out all this stuff, and and part of it part of the part of doing that is being on the journey. But I think like there was a girl, there was a woman that I dated, um, and sort of being committed, similar to what we were just talking about, uh being committed to the process, you know, she had a really good profile, she was a prof, she was a couple years older than me. She was she worked at the University of Western and hour and a half drive from me. But when she said she was like, Oh, you know, yeah, it'd be great to get together. Maybe we you want to have dinner time free tomorrow night. If you want to come for dinner, maybe we could it was during COVID lockdown, food, and she was like, I'll order some food, we can just, you know, hang out. And I'm like, you know what? I'm in. And then as soon as I got there, you know one of those feelings like when you're like, I'm gonna have probably an easy conversation with this person in a romantic way. I was like, right away, I knew, and I was like, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go through this and I'm gonna, you know, but I'm gonna be honest. And it was like you know, we had a great dinner, we chatted, we we we did all that stuff, but at the end of the day, I was like, you know what, I you know, really had a great time, but I gotta get going, blah blah blah. And then, you know, we I think I uh sent for text afterwards and said, you know what, really for hosting, and but uh, you know, I just really feel like I'm not I'm not really interested in that way. And she thanked me for my honesty. Yeah, and was like, oh, you know what, that's great.

Matt: 46:12

R O T, right?

SPEAKER_05: 46:13

It was all good.

Matt: 46:14

Being a solo dad, you return on your time, all the logistics to get a babysitter, to figure it out, to meet somebody to go on a unless there you really feel there's potential. I would say anything past like a second or third date, right? Like the first date, maybe it's all BS and it's you just met for a drink, you're like to see how it goes. Second date, maybe you're actually into some deep conversations. You're like, all right, we're all still putting on airs and we're like dressed nice and it's not real life yet. And then maybe on the third date, you're actually like, hey, let's go have mac and cheese get thrown at us by a four-year-old and have her tensor tap and see what it's like. Like we haven't even got into about the kid stuff yet, and I think we'll take it for a different conversation. But but I think that you're right, like that's the thing, is also there's some honesty again, leaning back on you dated somebody once before and ended really well. So why you know trust yourself a little bit to go, like, yeah, they're a nice person, but yeah, whatever it is, like I just don't see it going further than it's like we also dated before and it went poorly.

Ben: 47:10

Like before that's true too. You're right. I mean, like there and and I don't I don't like it. It's I don't understand like the true thing. Like it's so incredibly easy just to go, hey, uh either A I'm not feeling it or this didn't work, or you know, and it could like and good luck on this crazy adventure, kind of thing like there's no reason just to do like the whole ghosting nonsense, or well, like just be honest and and and be upfront with people about all of it because everyone else is going through the exact same drama nonsense grief of all of the that whole process. And so there's no reason why that you shouldn't throw a little respect um at anyone's direction that's also doing it too. Um and it's so it's and it goes like it's it's amazing. I mean, like the first time I was like the first time I said, like, hey, that's what I'm trying to tell you. You're super nice, but I just um it's it's just I'm not feeling it. Right. And just like wow. Like it was like shocking off of the truth.

Matt: 48:33

Like more work than just being honest.

SPEAKER_03: 48:35

I just like like they're like wow, okay. Well, yeah, you two, good luck. And there's like five. Yeah, I'm just like, wow, really?

Ben: 48:45

Can't people not just go yeah, hey, um, I'm interested, be not interested, see. Hey, I um uh like there's so many possibilities. Just like why not?

Matt: 48:57

Uh and I think I think if you're on the receiving end that as a guy, if someone's giving you like the soft signal that they're not interested, maybe they're just not being the assertive. Yeah, like just accept the fact that not everybody is for everybody, and that's okay. Yeah, yeah, right. Like I believe there's multiple people, depending on uh your life and stuff, that uh um you can make it work with, but um you need you you you need to realize that because I think a couple of times just being a nice guy that like you know I don't know, whatever. It is. And you go, well, but then then the dates like, but like why don't you like me more? And I'm like, well, I can't put my finger on it. All I know is whatever it is, it's just it's just not there for me. It doesn't mean you're bad or you're not worthy of finding happiness. It's just for me, where I'm at currently, this just isn't it's not it's not going right or whatever. So I I definitely say being honest with people beyond the like you know, you're kind of your first read and you know giving that feedback. I think it's hard, but I think that again, we were talking about the more you do it, the probably the easier it will be.

SPEAKER_05: 50:18

Yeah. Um, and we're and we're you know, we're like you said, we're all over 40. Yeah, we're adults. Well, like let's like for the most part, for the most part.

SPEAKER_07: 50:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 50:29

I mean you I think I think it's a lot easier. You can appeal to that side of things with people. You're like, hey, like I just want to be honest with you. If you start with that, like I think it's like right away, people are like, it's like splash of cold water in the face. Okay, okay, I'm good. I'm with you.

Matt: 50:49

So we've like the first date, and then we've talked a little bit about I think I I jotted down some apps, and I I I will throw this one out there. I don't know if I've heard anybody from the guy side that the Facebook dating stuff is even worth your time. So I'm just gonna put that out there. I'll maybe get a feeler on feedback. But I I wrote down a bunch that uh I've heard other people meet people and stuff. But yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 51:12

Can I just say a quick I did I did uh I did a big search when I was doing my research, I was like, yeah, I gotta find uh like widow widow widower uh like app. Like there's gotta be something out there for all of us, like that's probably gonna connect all of us, like synergistic, like awesome. Yeah, if you're 65 and over, yeah, perfect. But if you're not don't go on that one, yeah.

Matt: 51:44

If you're sorry, if you still have children that are dependent on you living at home, do not go on the widower one. That is that's just not gonna be a jam.

SPEAKER_05: 51:52

It's just so many.

Matt: 52:09

Followers both near and far. I want to take a break in this long conversation and remind you to give us a like and if you have a moment, a review on Apple iTunes. It helps us out. It also lets us know if there's something we can be doing more or less of. Also, if you know anybody that would uh benefit from following us on social media, we are SoloDad Podcast on Twitter, on TikTok, and there's a Facebook group that is the Solo Dad Podcast. Facebook group. If you want to shoot us a question, a show recommendation, if you think you want to be a guest on the show and talk about your journey, uh our email is solo dadpodcast at gmail.com. Want to thank you for all the support and for your continued listenership. We hope this helps and we'll get back to the conversation. And then Ben, I'll pass it to you, and then we'll we'll go to Ken. I think the person that got that I went on several dates with it was turning into something, and COVID kind of made things really apparent. There's some, there's some um, I had some issues obviously that weren't gonna that weren't gonna work, and I had some things I had to work out too that still working on, but it was really nice to have someone to feel that no one's checking on you, you have no one to talk to at the end of the night, no one to make plans with. And that was the part that I think I give her credit for picking up on going, like, wow, you can really make a relationship happen fast because you're so used to like, yeah, we'll go to dinner on Friday night and we'll do this thing, and blah, blah, blah, because I'd done it before in my partnership, right? And so, but again, to her credit, she also recognized, like, you're not really in it past that. You were just doing it for that. And COVID happened, and so then things went we separated, which is totally fine. And I moved, and so there's a bunch of things. But so I now have gone back and reflected and going, okay, what where do I need to be emotionally and to get back into dating with a purpose? And I'm gonna I'm gonna pass it to Ben with the question of did you or do you think you can date to practice to lead to with intention? So if I'm not emotionally ready right now, is it okay for me to date to I don't want to say practice to date, but to go like, why am I not emotionally ready? Does this date reflect something? And because Ben, because you you got into a relationship, and so like what how did that kind of go from like and then we can go to Ken because Ken Ken could talk a little more about where he's at now too? Like, what was that process like? Because I was doing the dating, I was in a committed, like we were both committed a little bit to each other. We were we'd gone through almost two to three months, we'd hit a we'd hit a couple of milestones of hanging out a bunch, and and so yeah, so how like what like how did you get how did you oh I know how you but like when you got into the relationship how like what was that transition from going like, oh, I'm a guy who's dating to now I'm in a relationship and like well, I mean, just kind of like before, like things collect.

Ben: 55:57

You know, like the when you run across somebody that's compatible and and things are matching and going well, it transitions, right? And so like if so you're like I don't think there's anything wrong you because you can't like to be that self-aware to know that you're truly ready or not ready to date, I think is would be astronomical. And so like you you're gonna make some mistakes, you're gonna date initially. It's it's gonna be awkward, it's probably weird, um, but you're gonna have to do it to test it, right? To see like, okay, yes, this worked, no, this didn't work, yes, I was ready. I was like, I thought I was ready, or maybe I wasn't ready, or like, actually, that went better than I thought it was gonna do. I mean, like the spectrum could be everything, right? And so, but you can't do it until you try it. So you go, you gotta get in there, you gotta try.

Matt: 56:52

You made a really good point too. Going on one date may actually go like, wow, I went on the date. Me going and everything was fantastic, but the person I selected, I forgot to ask them about. Do you put ketchup on your eggs? Like, I'm making like some random, right? Like, wow, I there was a filter criteria that came up in the conversation or in the date that I realized, wow, next time that's a that's a deal breaker for me, or that's a leftover. And I need to make sure I ask that next time. I'm referencing because I realized I forgot to ask people who didn't smoke and I went on a date. And I was like, Well, oh, that's a that's a that's a no-go, yeah, right for me. Yeah, so like you'd be like, it's how do you know, right? Yeah, and then like I don't think about something like, but this movie, like, wow, people still smoke?

Ben: 57:35

That's a thing. And like until you run across, it's like, well, I guess I need to put that in there. Okay, fine. But like, so like you don't know that until you try it and make a mistake. So you get into it, and then you do it, you go, and then you you find somebody where you're like, wow, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This is awesome. And you like, and it goes, right? And then uh and then sometimes, like as in everything else in life, sometimes it works and finishes, and sometimes it doesn't. Like Ken and I run on two different paths at that point. Like and it's it's but like I said, we're all adults, and so you kind of get to a point like you know, like when you go to a certain point, you can say certain needs just cannot be met because of circumstances. And that's gonna be a thing. So because we can't change certain things, even though everything else was fantastic, this part is going to make it difficult. And so you go, okay, well then you probably pull the plug, right? And so but you don't do that until you go through and you start dating, right? And like, and you can't you can't expect to jump in there and have it be like you said, you can't go like, all right, well, I made the filter, I put all my criteria down. I'm like, this is my what I'm looking for. And you can't expect that first date with your little checklist or whatever to go like, well, yep, this is the one. Whoop-pa-doop-ba-doo. This is gonna be fantastic.

Matt: 59:10

That's the feeling I want to have again. I want to have the whoop-pa-boop-doo of you. No, like you're you're gonna have to spend some time with that person.

SPEAKER_05: 59:17

You don't have the whoop-a-do-pa-do. Matt, Matt had the Matt had the she tastes like cigarettes.

SPEAKER_02: 59:30

Oh, is that oh, is that Marlowe man?

Matt: 59:33

Is that mental again? So uh before we pass it over to to Ken, I um how was the what did what did what did what did she call it? Not I'm thinking of what was her name, the actress. We did a conscious uncoupling. You're like, oh, for the love of Pete lady. Um what was the detangling? Was that Gwyneth? I think what was the detangling panther, I think so. What was the detangling like and did It brings anything up for you. And Ken, you can actually talk about that too with your first relationship that ended. Like entangling because we hadn't like I was very guarded with like being around my family, my kids. So like I kind of had like single dad dating life, and you're not going to be involved in anything inside of my house. I'm using air quotes like you don't meet my mom, you don't meet the kids, you don't meet any of my friends, you don't this is two totally different lives. So that didn't have a lot of untangling. So like, did that bring anything up for you, Ben? Sure. And then yeah, like and what have you was there anything you can share that you maybe learned or I mean just like processing any sort of loss or grief.

Ben: 1:00:36

I you just you do it with intention and you don't ignore it. And like and it's and but like it did, like it it brought up uh so like not only do you have the the immediate pain of loss and what you've created, you have the trickle down of remembering previous loss of related why. So it's like so you have the current loss uh and the feelings and relationships and everything that it's ended. So that's that's one piece of it. Um and that's like very upfront and present. And then and in random moments, there would be like a like a secondary of um, well, this loss is also like like whatever. Like, remember this loss, here's another loss. And then you start like my person, like like the ones that would creep in occasionally were like the ones of self-doubt, right? Of like I don't know, just like I guess self-doubt is the the best way to put it. Like, like little like little little thoughts would pop in your head, like what if or no, like will will this be a thing? Or like it's just like like and it's and that all was just like constantly spiraling, right? Like you'd have the upper front of media loss, and then you have a trickle, trickle, up front, trickle, trickle, trickle. And um, it definitely res but like at the same point, like you can't expect to not get hurt again in this process. I I it just like it's you're going to. I mean, like you can't you can't walk into this and go I I would say I would say like I for the very rare few, I imagine, that can run across somebody, meet somebody, and it just clicks right out of the gate. I mean, because it does happen, right? And so like you're gonna have relationships that go that end up ending, and you're gonna experience that loss again, and you're gonna have to make yourself vulnerable and make yourself open to that particular loss. And I think that's where some of that initial subconscious uh hesitation, doubt, grief, guilt comes in is like can I handle going through this again? Can I handle having opening myself up, falling in love with somebody, and then having it gone again? Like, because like can my body handle that kind of scenario again?

Matt: 1:03:09

So guilt can actually be a safety device, right? Isn't that great? Yeah, wow.

Ben: 1:03:14

Yeah. That's yeah, like because you can in the back of your head be like, like you can go, like, hey, think about that for a second, man.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:21

How fucked up is that? Right? Like, it's like, well, you know what? I don't know. Like, would she be okay with me dating? Uh, probably not. And it's a super easy.

Matt: 1:03:30

Right. Or like you go on a date and you feel guilty because you rather than get hurt again, yeah. Let me be let me feel guilty so I'm preemptively striking. Right. Not get whether it's you date for eight months and it's a nasty breakup, or you date eight times and then you just get hurt because you get rejected, or vice doesn't work, or whatever. It tastes like marlboro, whatever it is. Wow. That's right. Yeah. Well, because this is the thing. Like, I was trying to figure out when people are saying, like, I feel guilty, and I'm you can't speak for everybody, but like, I'm like, how like if you're Christian and it's in the valley, it's still death to us part, like you filled, like you say, can you filled the contract? You did what was in the thing. So how do you feel guilty when the person's not here? And like when I'm thinking like cheating guilty, like, right? Like, yeah, you know, like someone in the office is like, hey, we're all gonna have good drinks later, and we're all adults, and we go, like, that's a bad idea for me to do because I'm married, like, right? Like, you're like, I'm not 22, I'm not going out with you guys, I gotta go home. Yeah, so that's a different type of guilt, right? And so it's interesting that guilt, I think you're right though. I think a lot of times it's a preemptive uh like strike of like, I don't want to get hurt again.

Ben: 1:04:40

Yeah, I mean, it's a super like wow, people like I there's there's all sorts of safety mechanisms that our bodies will create for ourselves. Like I personally, mine was like a general numbness, and that's where they picked up on the you're not emotionally available because you're not projecting or acknowledging certain things. And if if they're not a complete adult, they're gonna see like, oh, okay, this guy's just going through emotions kind of thing. And like, and so if and at that point, like, all right, they're interested in doing something and they're vested. And this obviously this other person is not, they're like, I'm not gonna waste my time with this person. Like, you're very great, but you're not emotionally available. So thank you very much. Have a great night and good luck. Right. And like, but that's like so, but that that was me personally, it was a numbness personally. But then you can like you can tie into, well, I'm still married, right? Because there's there's a there's groups of people that still consider themselves married and partners with their late spouse. And then you have the ones that are like super tied into the emotional guilt of, well, if I find my something or I'm allowing myself to have happiness or love again in my life, then that is cheating on the relationship or the idea of the relationship that I had.

Matt: 1:05:59

Or what about the whole the whole one too that at least our counselor shared with me was the last time you were truly happy, it ended in not a good way. Right. Yeah. So your subconscious creates this fucked up connection to happiness equals pain. Because without great, without great love, there's not great grief, right? The grief is one of the simple ways is love unable to be expressed. And so if happiness is right, I'm in a relationship that makes me happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:27

You want to avoid it, I'm gonna get hurt again, right?

Matt: 1:06:30

And so you go, Well, I can't be happy, it's gonna hurt again, right? Yeah, man, that's really good, Ben. Um, really good. Thank you, man. And thanks for walking through that, man. I know I know it's it's not hasn't been that long, but I'm sure it's it's still tough. So thanks, man. I appreciate it, brother. So Ken, kind of with you over to you, like your first breakup, the the conscious uncoupling, like what did that kind of go? And then we can get closer to wrapping this up with a with the the news you get to share with us with the other part.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:02

So there's a yeah, there's so many different things with that. Like she was Kelly was very um sort of hesitant along the way in our relationship as well, just because she had been hurt in the past, she brought that in. Uh, she was a little bit uh or a lot, um, you know, sort of sensitive to those things. And then it made me, but it was sort of at the right, I I mean, I look back at it now, it was sort of the right thing for me to go through because she was like very sensitive to all of those things that we talked about. Like, oh, you know, are you and I did that on purpose actually. I had her in into my house when I didn't change a thing. Like I hadn't I hadn't taken down anything, I hadn't moved stuff around. Yeah, that had me decorated because I wanted her to see the house. I wanted to see how she react and we could talk about it, you know. Um, and yeah, later on it was like, you know, she brought it off, obviously, and was very sensitive to some of those things. Um and uh yeah, but I think you have to just like you guys are saying, you have to put yourself through those things because you yourself, you're you're not only experimenting with dating, but you're experimenting with your new self. You're kind of like going into this, going like yeah, like no, that's another big one, yeah.

Matt: 1:08:35

Because you're not the same, you've changed grief. I mean, I'm sure actually, you know what? This might be a fun little test. Let's all take a picture, like six months before I had to go a year for me, but like six to nine months before our spouses died, like I am sure that not only time, but I am sure we have changed. Like, whoa, I don't look like I've slept in a fortnight. No, it changes, I mean, not just physically, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:00

Yeah, like you you want to you want to embrace that change, like it ultimately I I find if your goal is to ultimately if your goal is to try and find another partner, another person to be with, then you're willing to go through the pain, because it is painful and on a lot of different levels, um, the things that you need to do. And and I think sometimes you're you know, you have to force yourself into these situations. You're going like, okay, well, I guess I'm gonna go through this because it's gonna be part of the process, and I'll sort of see how I do and evaluate. So, you know, it's it's difficult, no, no question, but to answer the question of am I ready or not? I think you you just like Ben said, you have to put yourself out there, you have to do it, and um and then and then maybe you get the initial answer you get is like oh yeah, I gotta take some more time, or oh, I have to deal with A, B, B, and C before I can can really be uh emotionally available to a person to do that. But I think it's really um I think you have to it's interesting that you you bring another person in uh to test to test this out, but then hoping that they're you know um kind of like emotionally I guess what's the term I'm looking for? Kind of like if they're emotionally intelligent enough to sort of recognize what you're going through and sort of give you, you know, feedback in your whole situation. Like I think that way away right away rules out a lot of people. Like if when you meet someone, you're like, if it you know, and Kelly was very open to a lot of things, so I think that's why our relationship sort of it it it gathered steam and we sort of got going, and and you know, she was really good with the boys. And I think the other thing too is that that little the one big check mark or checkbox that you have to sort of say, and I know you referenced this, Matt, was that if you're conducting yourself where you're like, oh no, I need to keep my dating life totally separate from my family and home life, I think right away there there's like, okay, well, why am I doing this? Why, why am I needing to divide this? Um, because right away I knew that I was like, okay, if if the person I'm with passes this, this, and this, then I'm I feel comfortable, you know, introducing them to my kids. It at least that's the way I felt. And then the other thing is that if you're if you're comfortable enough to date, you should hopefully be comfortable enough to talk to your kids and say, hey, I'm thinking about dating. I just want to know what I just want to let you guys know what that means. And in and not that I'm not that daddy's dating anybody right now, but I wanna I want to just explain that to you. And I mean, I know with Blair, that's a little bit different. I mean, it's it's you know, with a three-year-old, three and a half, you know, it's that's a bit hard. That's a hard conversation.

Matt: 1:12:43

It's it's well, no, but you touch, but I'm really glad you brought up because I think that depending on the situation with the the dad part, the kid part, like it's real easy to talk to my oldest one and be like, listen, there's dad's not gonna be alone forever. And she understands that. The thing with the younger one, and Ben, it'd be interesting to see what you Ben has three conversations to have at three different emotional levels, right? I have this really I have like one, two, but one really. And so with Blair at four and like I have no problem explaining to her what dating means, but where she's at with her deep desire.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:21

Right.

Matt: 1:13:21

I remember you saying this before affinity for feminine connection and energy. I now, I now it's even more so now that I gotta I my thing is I gotta be, I gotta be a little judicious with who I bring in. It's not just and I mean this in in in the real sense, it's not just a friend of dad's, right? Not that's a long friend of the family or whatever. Like like I have a whole bunch of people that we'll call them ants in the greater sense of the word. Those are totally fine to come by. No, nobody I'm dating, but like then that next level at four and a half, five years old, it's a real interest, especially with her deep desire for the feminine energy. So that's that's I think a separate conversation. But I think I'm glad you said something because I'm actually reflecting on why was I keeping my, I'll just use my two parts of my life separate. Why was I doing single dad dating, but single dadding, I wasn't gonna let them overlap. Like, why did I do that?

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:13

Well, it's a it's a safety thing, right? It's a little bit of a safety valve.

Matt: 1:14:18

So oh, sure. When it's also this, well, and it's also like, well, it can't go, it's also it's a double safety thing. One, it's a guardrail from it going further than I want it to, right? Like, you can't get blended in my life if I don't let you in. And I can also use the guise of I'm protecting my kid from being hurt. Okay, she's I mean your mom died. How much I mean, how much more worse can her life get? So, Ben, hey, real quick on that emotional, and I will come back because I want to I want to talk about like what what's going wait, you got going on too, Ben, or Ken, sorry. Ben the three the three conversations going forward, what do you think they're gonna be like? Is there any is there any kind of like hang ups or things you're kind of worried about or anything?

Ben: 1:15:03

Not going forward, yeah. No, I mean I I I sat them down two years ago when I started dating. And said, like, this isn't something I've seen. Yeah, daddy's gonna start dating, and here's what dating is, right? And like at this point, they're you know, they're little, right? And so like it's and um they were like, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:31

No, but good for you, man. Good for you, because we don't give kids enough credit, honestly, a lot of times, and and just even giving them that feedback and that respect and that and and that ex explanation, yeah, it totally takes out all of their because their minds of things they will come up with all kinds of imaginative things of what you're doing and why you're doing it. And it's crazy, right? And it and it's like if you but you and I and I know this because I was like my parents were divorced when I was like seven and a half, and I remember going through all that, like being like in the dark about things, and I just remember how crappy it was, and I and I I sort of took that and I was like, no, I I want to tell my kids exactly my own.

Ben: 1:16:27

So new and foreign and different to them. Uh it's like this is gonna be a thing, this is not what it means, this is what it means, but it like but the potentially means because these things like what their brains can concoct, definitely like especially with where they were in ages and things. Left left on left on guidance right. And I've always taken a very truthful stance with my kids on this whole thing. Yep. And I I think it's paid off tremendously. And at one point, what it was not you say. It was not an hour. Whatever, Dad. I know you already talked to us about it. It's fine. Like it was like I know.

Matt: 1:17:10

There was she was so matter, like, yeah.

Ben: 1:17:13

She's like, whatever, Dad. I was like, all right, sweet, Nani. Thanks for thanks for being on point. Yeah, good. Yeah, you got the gear since year eight. So can we simmer down, please? And um, but yeah, it's uh yeah, I I I've not I've had revisit some very interesting conversations with Ryland again recently, just on some other topics, um, as he's been kind of going through. Um, but that's a whole different deal. But like as far as the dating side of it, I sat them all down, laid out the scenario, and they all bought in and said, Oh, okay. Yeah, and I think it's gonna be different if you have well, I know it's gonna be different if you have somebody that's like a the teenager-ish age, like like 10 to 8, 17, 18, and like because they have such a deeper attachment to the previous, like, and and and so there's gonna be a much bigger uh emotional mentality.

Matt: 1:18:15

I also think it depends on the kid if because I've heard of a couple like I'm speaking actually to um uh some of our close widow friends where the the the kids were actually like you should do this, make yourself happy. No, yeah, they did. They were like they saw how much of a struggle emotionally it was for mom, and they're like, please date and for yourself, you know, treat yourself, yeah. Yeah, please, right? And and it's it's come up more than once with it's and again, it depends on the kid. Like some kids, if they're still suffering from the loss, it's gonna be a different conversation. But so so Ben, um the three the conversations, and so right now, if like the kids do they just you you back to like dad's dating again, and that's just the com that's the word adds is for now.

Ben: 1:19:03

I mean, you don't have to no like when I start dating again, that's you'll just tell them again, they'll know. Like, I I mean, I think at this point they understand it's all part of the process, part of the thing in the process. So when it's when it becomes a thing, and if I introduce when and if I introduce them to somebody else, they're gonna know they're like, okay, well, yeah, this is dad's new girlfriend or whatever, right? Whatever. Yeah, okay. Um, they're they're cognizant of the fact that daddy introducing a girl doesn't mean new girl's potential mommy, right?

Matt: 1:19:34

And that's I'm glad you said that because that's actually one of my biggest uh fears because quite literally no one and I did I I think is I did the same thing with Samantha though. I did the exact same thing with Samantha. No one ever met Samantha except for Marcy. Ever. Ever.

Ben: 1:19:57

Exactly. Having your children.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:02

Can you just lie down on the couch?

Ben: 1:20:08

There was another solo mother I dated. And so there's no option. Like the first date we had is taking the kids to the playground.

Matt: 1:20:16

Oh, that's right.

Ben: 1:20:17

I remember you're gonna have to.

Matt: 1:20:26

Obviously, I will in uh sometime in the next 15 to 20 years. You are right. I am sure.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:50

I need some copy. That's right.

Matt: 1:20:54

If not, eat carbs. That always seems to solve your problems, Matt. Um, so lots of cards. Uh so I think that that's a really good segue into actually that thing. I'm really not trying to deflect, I'm actually trying to not have to edit a whole bunch. Is that is no, it's back to where you are now, Ken, right? So the boys knew you were dating. They'd I they met Kelly. That that didn't work out. They didn't work for and you know what though, for anyone that hears this, and whether you dated one of us or not, thank you because you're gonna you were part of the process. Yeah, 100%.

Ben: 1:21:36

Well, like you took us through a you took us through a yeah really different trying part of our life, and it just I would agree.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:45

And you and you know what, it is true, and and it's one of the things that Kelly like Kelly was really emotionally yeah, hi, high, high not only sensitive but intelligent, but ultra, yeah, high acute.

Matt: 1:21:58

But she and she would say that she goes, I don't want to be your emotional bridge, I don't want to be the and I'm like, Well, that's right, sometimes it's so easier to go into that over that bridge and into where you are now. So kind of go through know when you kind of knew this was gonna continue to perpetuate the new relationship and and telling telling your young men in your house on where this was headed.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:24

Yeah, yeah, it was it was funny. Like, Julia, like we met, obviously. You know, I already alluded to that, that we sort of you know chatted, brief telephone conversation, was like, yeah, let's meet, let's go for coffee. And I was like, wow, that was quick. Like, we didn't have to do days of texting or anything, and and yeah, we hit it off right away.

Matt: 1:22:52

And then it was like cars, right? You guys two separate cars.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:57

That's right, Starbucks. Sitting in cars and you know, COVID uh lockdown. Um you know, and it was just you know, it was one of those things where it was like, oh my gosh, I don't know if this is gonna work, but or whatever, but yeah, let's let's and it was her profile. Like I I think I mentioned this before, her profile really stuck out to me because she had a lot of really good, you know, real pictures of herself doing all kinds of different things, activities, and also one of them uh you know, reading to young children. It was actually on her profile. And I've like there was I and I you you know, going on the online apps or even just being on one online app, I've gone through a ton of profiles, and that was the first profile I've ever seen where a woman had posted a picture of her with young children and reading, and like actually alluding to the fact that well, these aren't my children, but you know, I am opening. They're not mine, I have no idea what they are. You know, I like my job getting great, right? It's awesome. Right. I I just booked these children through this staging app, it was awesome. You could get children.

Matt: 1:24:16

I rented a dog. Here we are, here's my profile. You know, that's a whole business model. That's awful. On we go. So, yeah, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:25

So, yeah, so anyway, and then uh, you know, fast forward to like the fifth or sixth date, I was like, No, right away. I I had you know, really good uh, you know, everything was working and clicking, and I was like, no, I feel really close to this person. I wanted to introduce them, and I remember that actually because Julia commented on like we chatted about her obviously background and dating background and like some of the relationships that she came she'd come from because she'd never been married before, and uh and she just said, Yeah, like I've been in a relationship where a guy actually didn't I'd been dating him almost a year and did not want me to meet his children, so I was only yeah, yeah, you son of a bitch. And and it was like, I was like, Are you kidding me? It was almost a year.

Matt: 1:25:24

I it was so expensive to travel back and forth.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:26

I just couldn't keep it up and thank you. She uh, but and then I said, No, I really I want to introduce you to the boys. She's like, Really? You do? And she was kind of shocked, and I was like, Yeah, let's go back. Like, and you know, the boys are there, like, like, why don't you come in and just briefly meet them? We won't make it an awkward thing, but if you can come in before you have to drive home, and and I remember it was scary, it was great. Um, and then it was just you know, things had taken off from there, and we just gone through those stages. And like I said before, and certain things when you've been in a relationship and you've already said this, there's certain little things you're looking for, things that you want uh to give you those indications, and yeah, a lot of them were there. Obviously, she's a different person uh in a lot of ways, much different than uh Leanne was, but in a lot of ways, there's some similarities that are kind of eerily the same, but that doesn't surprise me in those ways because that's the kind of person that I like, so I recognize the fact that there's there's going to be some parallels there, not a hundred percent, obviously, but there are will be some, and yeah, and I'm happy to say that uh, you know, this past March I uh proposed to Julia. We were uh away in Tursten Caicos and it was uhwesome. A family trip that we planned. I took the boys, you know, I let them know uh while we were down there, and uh yeah, it was great. My 13-year-old.

Matt: 1:27:02

The pictures are awesome, man. It looked amazing. Yeah, it really does. Cannot be happy.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:08

And my 13-year-old was like classic, you know. I I took I told him, you know, about three days before I was gonna do it, the first full day we're done, and he's like, I know right, yeah, okay, whatever day typical teenager response. Yeah, and yeah, sure, okay. But it was good. We had actually a little bit more of a conversation than that, and it was, you know, um, he felt my you know, my nine-year-old was pretty exciting. Like he was like, really? That's awesome. You even have a ring? That's awesome, dad. Like, that's gonna be great. Uh, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was good. It's and it's yeah, it's worked out. So um, yeah, I am engaged. Look at that. Mm-hmm. Just um off the market. No more online dating for me.

Matt: 1:27:59

Number one release, stress relief. You're like, oh, thank you, jerk. Anything planning the wedding? Any triggers around that as of as of recently? I'm just curious. Not yet. Yeah. Um because we talked about I know you couldn't be there, but we talked about the last time when we when uh we went to uh uh Emily and Brian's wedding, sitting in a group, I know you couldn't make because of COVID, but we're sitting in in the row of of widows and widowers and going when they're saying the military. It was a happening.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28:37

I know. I would never see that picture going, oh, that would be an interesting conversation at the wedding.

Matt: 1:28:46

You're right. And the the thing was is though, like we all talked about like the vows, like everything else was like obviously tailored to them and their moment and whatever, but the vows are the vows, which we've all said and done. And I mean, and it was we all kind of did this nod of like, yeah, it really hit when you heard them saying them and you put yourself up there again, going like the last time I did that. It was because I've never been at a wedding, none of us had. I don't think I Ben, did we talk about it? Have we been to one post-loss? I don't think any of us had. So that was another big one, right?

Ben: 1:29:19

So it's the first for the whole group because COVID 2, right? COVID had COVID was like that was the first uh gathering.

Matt: 1:29:37

Yeah, part of the world was like locked down.

Ben: 1:29:41

I was like, gotta go, go. Um, so like I had my sister's wedding first, but then like as far as and that was a different vibe because it was like family and things, and like that was also, I think I I might have even said this on one of the other podcasts. Like, she didn't invite me initially because she wasn't sure I could handle the love that was also right.

Matt: 1:30:04

We did.

Ben: 1:30:04

Um, and so I came into that one with a an agenda. Um so it was kind of a different vibe for that wedding. But like, so the the one with Emily, and like the fact too, like Emily was the widow finding it, getting it, making it happen, having the wedding. Like, and like that one was that one was a different kind of level just because it was a friend similar situation, and just seeing them happy and all the things. So it was like um, but it was it was super good. Um super pumped for you, Ken. Like yeah.

Matt: 1:30:43

Could not be happier for ever for everybody involved, man.

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:46

Yeah, no, it's well, it's interesting because yeah, we don't have a date yet, and we're just trying to actually sort out. Well, as you can imagine, there's a rush of people trying to get married in the next this year. We're kind of like, you know, in 2022. So we're actually looking most likely at at uh like late fall of 2023, uh, and we're trying to figure out a destination because that's kind of where we're leaning. Julia's always wanted to, you know, get married on a beach, so it kind of makes sense. We're trying to figure that out. Um, so we've got a travel agent, a good friend of mine that's a travel agent working on it. We're trying to, you know, we want to give people obviously time. But um, but yeah, in terms of the whole uh wedding thing, sort of triggering and stuff, not not really, um, because it's sort of new, it's sort of different stage, you know. You think back to when you're in your 20s and you were thinking about getting married, like it was like, you know, and but now it's yeah, it's totally got a different uh well, obviously for different feel for a number of reasons. And um, and even you know, Julia's older, like she's never been married, but she still has you know, she's even acknowledged that like a lot of different things uh she's thinking about than compared to like if she was in her 20s.

Matt: 1:32:14

I would hope so that are important to her now, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:32:18

Um so um, but yeah, I think I think there's uh but I mean there's little things, right? Like the I think the thing that you're looking for, um, and I know I've said this before, but but the thing you're looking for some to be with someone, if you're gonna get married, or even if you aren't gonna get married, it doesn't matter. Like it's whatever floats your boat, you know. But if you want to have someone in your life that's gonna be a partner to you, I think you're just looking for that person that's going to be accepting of you know, the especially with kids, the existing relationship that's gonna carry on with your uh person that you lost.

Ben: 1:33:04

And the questions that come up in the scenarios and the emotions that happen and things, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33:09

Right. And it and it to feel like normal, like to be able to reference them in a memory, in a situation, and you you just not to feel like you're walking on eggshells. Remember, I remember that feeling with Kelly, like dating that person and going, okay, this isn't right, like having to dance around this issue, it isn't right. Like that has to be something that we can feel normal about because it's not going away, it's gonna be something that's there. Um, so and you know, and like and so talking about that whole redecorating, like circling circling back and everything and redecorating the house, like when I remember when Julie and I had a conversation about we've just started because my main floor, everything got renovated. I've got all this new stuff, and we've got well, two things like we had so Leanne did this awesome. Um she went to France, lived in France for a year in third year university, brought back all of these Matisse um basically Coast Guards, all the artwork, and then did a full-on, like framed picture like of Matisse. And then we had another piece of artwork that was from France, and then uh, you know, Julia went to France as well, went on a big trip, and she got this like big awesome frame picture from the Moulin Rouge that she's always had that she wanted to put up. So we had these things like and then so we just redid the you know, sort of the main floor, and she was like, Oh, well, you've got these two pieces. I've got this. Why don't we do this French theme on the main floor, these three pieces, and then we'll do a instead of having the family pictures there, why don't we do all the family pictures up the stairs and do a collage of everything? And then she was like, you know, and then of course we can let's, you know, why don't you pick out a good picture of the boys and Leanne to include in that collage? And I was just like, Brilliant, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's interesting.

Matt: 1:35:14

There's a guy, there's a guy in my med's group uh from the cancer house, his new wife um did this thing for this collage of the three boys and they're these artwork, and the way he describes it, and the way she blended like the new and the old and they hang above the fireplace. And I was like, and he goes, they were still dating. And he was like, I was like, if that's not a sign that it's meant to, and he goes, and it just felt so not forced, just very organic. It just happened, right? She just kind of made these things, and and he goes, There, and the boys now the kids, older kids, they're taking them as they graduate college to wherever they go because it's just like they're like they want them. They're like, it's mom, it's you, it's uh new mom, it's all these things. And I was like, that is awesome. So I one of the repeating things in the when it goes well dating thing is the fact that whether they've been through this type of loss or not, or they have the high enough emotional IQ to figure out that there is always going to be a space for your late or deceased person in our in your life. And everyone's a little different, right? There's there's obviously a line of too much and not enough, but everyone's a little different. And the fact that they can make that space available for us those that are are bereaved and and have grief, I think is a big one because I just read a post the other day about a guy, he's in a single dad group where he really needs to be in the solo dad group, but he walked in on a conversation of his uh wife and his stepdaughter basically telling his son of his late wife, like, don't go to this thing because you're kind of awkward and goofy, and it's uh it's mom's birthday. He's been with this lady for like five years. And all the answers in this was like, This isn't the first time this has happened. You need this is bad. Like, this has been going on behind your back for a long, long time. It was crazy. And I'm like, So as lonely as this guy must have been, he got married to somebody, he has a stepdaughter, all and I'm like, wow, like there's no space for your late wife if this is happening, if they're disrespecting what the son was trying to talk about. So how what amazing that that's not what you have going on and in that I think that's a big I think that's one of the big things that guys should reflect on is is the person, and again, we're all different, but all whatever it means to you, we all know what it is. Like, are they being respectful for the space that I need for my wife to be in our life? Because they always will be. Kids are no kids, even if you don't have kids, exactly. They're still gonna be a part of your life.

SPEAKER_05: 1:37:43

Yeah, and and and just being open, like open enough to have a conversation about it. So, like, yes, of course, there's gonna be different feelings on things, but it's not gonna be uh uh like one of those one-sided nope, you know, that makes me feel totally uncomfortable. Can't have it, can't do it. And you're like, really? You know, like I keep two pictures of the like two of my favorite pictures of Leanne and I in my walk-in closet on a a dresser. It's kind of like my little spot, like that's where I have it. And you know, Julia's never said a word. She knows, like that's I keep those there. It's for me. No one like she sees it too now because she uses the walk-in closet as well, but she's never had an issue with it because she knows, like, she just like, yeah, I I get that. So, you know, it's it's and I'm not saying like you, you know, like you like you said, it's different for everyone, um, but you just need to have so that someone I think that's the the key thing that's open to those things.

Matt: 1:38:56

Well, man, I will uh is there any anything? I mean, I we could probably go another 45 minutes if we really want to do, but I would like to end on a happy note.

SPEAKER_05: 1:39:05

Yeah, I know all the women, all the women out there want to know all the details. We'll share that later now.

Ben: 1:39:11

Especially because Ken, you're super smooth on that.

Matt: 1:39:13

Yeah, you were like, Yeah, that uh first man, in all honesty, cannot be well, and not just you, Ken.

SPEAKER_06: 1:39:25

I mean, yeah, our buddy.

Matt: 1:39:29

Poor man realized that he finally came to the realization one time he goes, so it's like just you and me. Well, yeah, you mean Molly, but that's it now. Out of the nine. Now there's just three. There's just three. Blowing it and Molly, Molly's all great, she's all grandbabied up. She's loving it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:39:44

And yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, actually, let's do a quick count. So, yeah.

Matt: 1:39:50

Yeah. Well, up until recently, yeah. Six of us are very well actually at one point it was at one point it was seven. It was seven. At one point, it was just Molly and I were the only two. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't be happier for my friends being happy. You better move down to Alabama. No, not with everything we've got going on. Um, no, in all honesty, man, I can't be. It's it's amazing to watch people you care about, and especially knowing the lightning in the bottle in Breckenridge, and watch each one of you go on these journeys, and including Ben, where where you're at now, and even my like my brief stint into dating or whatever, just to go from don't you feel like we should like all get back together in Breckenridge and form a company?

SPEAKER_05: 1:40:40

We should do something for sure.

Matt: 1:40:42

Make it happen. So just I mean, no, seriously, man, we are over the moon for you, and I hope you know that everybody in the group is super excited, and there will definitely be some sort of like uh couples uh interview at some point.

SPEAKER_05: 1:40:56

Well, invites to be going out, so make sure you're make sure your passports are up to just give me a reason, buddy.

Matt: 1:41:02

Just give me a reason. Family friendly resort. Let's do it. Um resort's gonna be like, what is the train wreck at table seven? Uh so no, and anything else about dating though? Any, I think I think we covered a lot. Um, and I think we it's probably a really good topic to revisit again.

Ben: 1:41:20

But yeah, or if people like want to comment on what we talked about and like say, like, hey, like, yeah, kind of like, hey, this was kind of interesting. What more about this? Or hey, like, that's nice and all, but like I've been experiencing this. What do you guys think about that? Like, anything you guys want to like chime in on? Because like this topic keeps coming up as and it and it will, as more and more people come in and do this whole process again. Like, it is going to be a thing. So, yeah.

Matt: 1:41:50

To any of the solo dad Facebook group members, and I'm not gonna mention any names, but if it's been a minute for you and you think that you can't find your way today, like know that that's just not true. Like, there you you deserve to have all the happiness in the world again. And I think you I think through a little bit of trial and tribulations, I think we all can. Because there's some guys in that group, man, that they cannot be nicer gentlemen, and it breaks my heart. Yeah, yeah. It really does. I mean, there are some really, really good men out there that are doing the one of the most impossible things that we as parents can do, and they're doing it, and they're doing a damn fine job, and they're doing it alone. And in I just it sometimes it you just like if someone could just knock on their door, it would really help them out. Um at my door too, not just any like, but I mean, like they are great dads and good men, and it just it breaks my heart that that they they just can't seem to find their way to to get in a relationship again. So um, well, as always, guys, thank you. I mean, we went a little bit long, but that was a lot, and uh I appreciate you guys a ton of man, and I love you.

Ben: 1:43:05

Thank you, Buzz. It's nice to get the the trio together. All right, love you too, man.