Episode 2.12 Jim T. Widowed Twice and Still Standing

“You’re never done with grief,” says Jim T., who has the rare distinction of being twice widowed. His first wife Melinda was killed in a car accident shortly after they moved to Knoxville Tennessee to found an Eastern Orthodox Church there. Melinda’s death brought the new congregation together, who were still relative strangers, as they rallied around Jim in support. He describes the beautiful rituals and traditions of that sect of Christian faith, and shares what church elders told him about the significance of the date of her death. 

Earlier this year, Jim’s second wife Tracy, mother of his two children, died unexpectedly. He explains the difference in grieving his first wife versus his second. He and Mathew dispel some of the ‘rules’ around grieving and Jim describes his childrens’ surprising reaction to the loss of their mother. He expands on his faith and the role it plays in his grieving process and his life in general. 

This year, he attended a grief retreat where he met up with old friends of his, and people whom he’d never met but who traveled from across the world to lend their support in their time of need. The people who showed up weren’t who he’d expected, but they were exactly who he needed. 

Quotes

“Most of the things we solve in our lives involve doing. And grief is one of these situations where there is no solving it, there is no fixing.” (9:19-9:26 | Jim)

“We get both lamentation and joy because the day of the funeral, I had all of those emotions going on all at once. So if you only do half of it, it just feels incomplete. (17:18-17:37 | Jim)

“I will say this, you're never done with grief. You are never done with it. You work on it, and you put it back on the shelf. And then when you're ready or when something comes up, you take it down and you work on it some more.” (28:50-29:08 | Jim)

“If I could wave a magic wand, one of the things I'd remove for anybody that's grieving is shame. Just get rid of it.” (31:39-31:43 | Mathew)

“I never, ever want to break my kids’ hearts again, like I had to that day.”(38:45-38:54 | Jim) 

Links

http://www.thejoyfulwidower.com/ 

http://www.refugewidowers.com/

Tracy’s visitation (St. Anne Orthodox Church, Oak Ridge, TN) and memorial prayers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP25wWBKaj8

Tracy’s funeral (St. George Greek Orthodox Church, Knoxville, TN): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cPndjTMoto

Books:

“I’m Grieving as Fast as I Can”: https://a.co/d/g0h6xyA

“The Group”: https://a.co/d/0HZfI5X

“Memory Eternal”: https://a.co/d/4PYnDGF

Jesus Prayer: https://www.svots.edu/saying-jesus-prayer

“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner”

(And in French, for Tracy’s tombstone): “Seigneur Jésus Christ, Fils de Dieu, aie pitié de moi, pécheur/pécheresse” (masculine/feminine)

Kolliva: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koliva

You can also find several recipes for how to make it—different countries and different families have their own variations on the theme

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Transcript

Matt: 0:31

Welcome to another episode of the Solo Dad podcast. I've got a fellow solo dad who um has sits in the unique position of being widowed twice. Uh my I'm gonna go ahead and say friend in grief. I think I used to say Pete Pips, peep pigs, people in grief. Jim. Jim, welcome. Thanks for taking time out of your afternoon and evening on this Friday. Uh, how are you doing? Uh I'm doing great. Thanks, Matt. Thank you for having me. No, it's actually really serendipitous prior to recording. I was saying, you know, I've been wanting to, you know, get someone on to talk about their journey through grief while in faith. And also you happen to go to a retreat, which I'm really excited to hear about how that went. And then to put the uh icing on the cupcake, you started a blog. And I was like, this is like the trifecta. I definitely gotta get Jim on. So the timing was perfect. So I always appreciate it. Um I since you were in the in the rare air of well, I I haven't looked at statistics, but it's gotta be small, um of being widowed twice. Um, why don't you go ahead and uh share with us um kind of how how the first set, however you want to do it, chronologically, reverse chronologically. Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49

Yeah.

Matt: 1:49

And be glad to share that with everybody listening, then we'll kind of go into where you're at now, and then um I'd love to hear about the retreat in your blog.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

Okay. Yeah, I'll try to sum this up. Yeah. Um so my first wife, Melinda, uh, we were married January of 96, and I was serving as a clergyman in a Protestant denomination. Uh, I'd been through seminary. Uh Melinda and I had been best friends from college, but we didn't get married until after I had finished seminary, after I was ordained. Uh, and I had served for a couple of years, but really came to a position that I felt convicted I wasn't in the right place, uh, that Eastern Orthodoxy was really where I needed to be. So they loaded up the truck and they moved to Constantinople. I don't know. Um so uh, you know, when when I broached the subject with Melinda, uh she said, you know, I hadn't been through seminary with you, but I watched you pray about this and really struggle with it. And I believe you've heard from the Lord, you need to be obedient. I'm your wife, I need to go where you go, I will figure it out as we go along. And so uh so yeah, we left where we were. Uh, this was fall of 97. And uh um we're one of the founding families of St. Ann Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Uh in fact, St. Ann's first regular Sunday services started in our living room. We had just bought a house and hadn't moved in yet. Uh so we were there uh in the house for about five weeks, uh, rented a warehouse, moved the church there, uh, got to Easter of '98, and we didn't have a priest at that time. So we went over to Columbia, South Carolina. We were confirmed on Holy Saturday, the day before Easter. And Easter Sunday was our last time together. Uh Melinda drove back home to Knoxville. I had a business trip to Atlanta. I'd gone back to doing software development, um, which was uh both our our major and college. And it was on Wednesday of Bright Week, just uh three days after I had last seen her on Easter, that I got a phone call that night. Melinda had been in a car wreck on her way home from work and was killed instantly. Uh so yeah, yeah. Um it uh I don't know how else to say it, it really galvanized uh St. Anne's uh in the congregation. We had a couple of families with people who had grown up Eastern Orthodox, but most of us were brand new to this and had no idea what we were doing. And our friends who were cradle Orthodox uh came in and said, Okay, here are the prayers. Uh, we're gonna say the Psalms, start at Psalm 1, go through Psalm 150, back to 1. They divvied it up and took it in shifts and did it from when Melinda died until the funeral on Saturday. Um just the um it it was amazing to see the congregation really come together. There were 20, 25 of us. Um, but really everyone pulled together and the the support, um uh uh yeah, I'm I'm just uh thinking back to it, still speechless at at how all that happened.

Matt: 5:16

Um when they when just to kind of staying on the Eastern Orthodox uh tr tr tradition, I don't know that sounds that that didn't sound right, but I'm just gonna say tradition anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 5:25

Actually, that's a good word.

Matt: 5:28

It feels like it should be a little more uh I don't know, sanctimonious, but it's it's if it's a tradition's fine. Um the the uh playbook that they lay out, so um the reading of the psalms happens from the time and is it in the church, or does someone just commit to reading? I mean, technically you could sing a psalm, right? Uh so reading, singing a psalm for a period of time, and the badon gets passed on in memories of the person who passed. Is that kind of the idea? Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 5:58

Yeah, so people would do like hour to two-hour shifts as much as possible. People would be there at the funeral home with Melinda. Um, if they couldn't, they would do at home, they just signed up for time slots and kept it going 24-7 for those three days. Um tribute.

SPEAKER_02: 6:16

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00: 6:17

Yeah, well, I mean, this is this is actually normal. Um, you know, we it in Orthodoxy, we really have a lot around when someone dies, uh, taking care of the person, taking care of the family, uh, saying the prayers. Uh, I mentioned in the pre-interview, um, not only the funeral, but nine days after a person dies, uh, we gather again and we had memorial prayers, we had a meal, uh, 40 days afterwards, we have a commemoration. One year to mark the one-year anniversary. Uh, the congregation comes together and we remember that person. And one of the absolute blessings out of that is nobody can come to you like nine months on and say, Hey, aren't you over this yet?

Matt: 7:04

Um, are those days 940 and a year? I know why a year, but are they outlined in scripture? Like, or is this just something that is a tradition within Eastern Orthodox?

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

Uh, it's it's just our tradition.

Matt: 7:15

Well, I know 40 days has a I mean, that happens in the Bible a few times, but I wasn't sure if there was a thing. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

So uh and we get together and we have a meal, we have prayers. Um there's a particular uh wonderful dish. I've I've grown to love it, but it's part of funerals. Uh it's called koliva. And it's made from boiled wheat berries and usually has uh some people add raisins, uh, others may add chocolate chips or you know, candies or things like that. Um but it comes from in the Gospels when Jesus said that unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone. But if it's buried, you know it brings forth fruit. And so we have this food made from boiled wheat berries that is very sweet. Some people will add maybe some parsley or bitter herbs to also add you know that bitterness of grief, but we also have the sweetness of our hope.

SPEAKER_02: 8:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 8:11

And we have the the wheat from Jesus' story, and it's a food that we it's it's specially blessed uh during the memorial service, and then we share that afterwards. Uh, and it's it's just such a wonderful thing uh to participate in. Um, one of my best friends is Romanian, and Daniela made the koliva for Tracy. I'm jumping ahead in the story a little bit here. Uh but um but yeah, I remember learning how to make koliva uh all those years ago when Melinda died, and I made koliva a couple of times. Uh so yeah, I mean that's something that's that's also a part of what we do. Um orthodoxy is very um there are things to do, you know, when someone dies and you've got that grief and you've got that that anxious energy there, and when you have things that you can do instead of how am I gonna handle this? What am I gonna do? How am I gonna get through this?

Matt: 9:12

Well, it's one of these situations in my we as people so many times well, I don't know, I'd I guess most of the things we solve in our lives involve doing, right? And it's one of these situations where there is no solving it, there is no fixing death, right? Uh and so we feel like you know, there's nothing we can do uh but we want to do, and it's nice that it's really nice and considerate and thoughtful. And of course, I mean it's been around a while, so it's not like it's the first rodeo of them doing this. But like I think about, you know, I mean, listen, yeah, it very much like you you want to watch a list fill up fast, uh put together, you know, what we call mule train, right? After someone dies. I mean, I I I was eating frozen reheated lasagna for like we're talking months after the mule train had kind of pittered off. And we actually had to tell people uh you have one adult, uh uh 14-month-old that doesn't eat the delicious, and then my mother who had gastric bypass, so she eats like a hummingbird. So I'm like, stop giving me nine pounds of lasagna. Like, I can't between and then the next day someone bring another, and man, I and the other cool thing I will say, kind of like on the uh is it kaliva, right? That you only have during Koliva, yeah. What I love, this is gonna that really one of the sometimes the words you're talking about death, but we're so familiar with it, it sounds weird. Uh one of the things I really appreciated was people would make some of their like their comfort foods. Um someone made like this Polish, I I would call it like a uh like a gulash or something like growing up, like a like a stroganov. I don't know what type of sausage and spices they use. I was like, this is amazing. And she was like, we really only make this for kind of like funerals and like holidays. It's literally we don't make it any other time. It's pretty much like when people gather. And I was like, is there any way I can get the recipe? And since I'm not your book, can I just make it when I want? But like the different foods that people would prepare for a family grieving. I mean, there's a lot of pasta dishes involved. I understand why, but like there were some really cool things where I was like, Man, I would have never made uh, you know, a potato pancake with a pear chutney on it. I'm like, this is what I'm supposed to go. So um uh so that's really cool. What so uh I want to say kind of real uh I don't I know you do a little teaser about Tracy as well, yeah, but um stilling let's just stay kind of in the Eastern Orthodox um uh traditions and and such. What um so the 90 or 90, whoops, nine forty one year is is there a set day for the funeral? Do is is the nine days for the funeral, or is it just the funeral the memorial or celebrate well we do celebration in life now exactly?

SPEAKER_00: 11:58

Okay, yeah, we had we had Melinda's funeral, let's see, she died on bright Wednesday, we had the funeral on bright Saturday. And so Bright Week is the week following Easter. And one of the things that I will do my best to get through this without choking up, I I I will try my best, but the day after Melinda died, um, I had a phone call from the priest at the Greek church in Knoxville. So when I say Eastern Orthodox, and it's Russian, Greek, um, Syrian, you know, all these we're Eastern. Um yeah, Eastern, right, exactly. So, you know, they're they're independent national churches, but we are in communion with one another. Sure. So we don't have we don't have a pope, but our bishops share authority collegially and they share communion. So hence, you know, I could go to a Russian church, I could go to a Greek church, I could go to a Syrian church and receive communion at at any of those. Um, because the jurisdiction I'm in, the Orthodox Church in America, is in communion with all of these. Gotcha. Um, so the day after Melinda's death, uh, phone rings and it's Father Anthony from the Greek church, or Father Andrew, excuse me, from the Greek church in Knoxville. And uh he said, You have no idea what this means that Melinda died in Brightweek. I said, I don't. I'm still so brand new to this. Please tell me, because it sounds like you've got something incredible. Tell me how lucky I am.

Matt: 13:31

Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 13:32

And she said, right, right, right. Actually, you're not far off. Um, he said, Okay, um, this is not doctrine, this is not dogma, this is pious custom. This is what all the little old ladies and everyone will will tell you. But Orthodox Christians almost never die during bright week. And those who do, um, uh they say, there is no judgment. The books aren't even opened. They have gone from keeping the feast of the resurrection, they've made confession, they've had Posca, which is the Greek word for Passover, it's what we call Easter. They've had Posca here on earth, they've just gone straight to keeping Posca there. And the Brightweek funeral is different from the funeral for the rest of the year. It doesn't have the penitential prayers, and it doesn't have uh the this kind of somber note to it. It is all the music of Posca. I mean, we sang the the Paschal hymn, Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs, bestowing life over and over and over at Melinda's funeral. Um it was just uh just such an amazing experience. And it was so kind. Father Andrew called and said, Look, y'all just rendered a warehouse, you don't have anywhere set up yet, do the funeral here at St. George at the Greek church in in Knoxville.

SPEAKER_02: 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:55

And it was just so hospitable and so kind of St. George to open their doors like that. And we we packed out the house, and we had two priests who had between them decades of service, and I think maybe one of them had ever done a bright week funeral. Wow. Or been a part of. And so we got through the funeral in fits and starts because they were having to constantly stop and look at the books to make sure, okay, now what part of the service are we at? Because we haven't done this before. Wow. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just it was such a profound experience.

Matt: 15:32

Well, and like and like you said, that I'm sure juxtaposed that with other cell uh um funerals or memorials you've been to that were not almost celebratory. Is that a fair like tone? Like yours, like right, hers was more like you said that it was yeah, more than that was the first orthodox funeral I'd been to.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

Right. So I had nothing to compare it to, right?

Matt: 15:56

I just all the other ones have been terrible since I this one's different.

SPEAKER_00: 16:00

Um, I will say, even though the the um the standard uh the usual orthodox funeral, um it yeah, it does have a somber note and a penitential note, and yet there is so much hope um that is there, and the love of God that we see in Christ and the hope that we have in his resurrection is so palpable. And it's um the funeral is maybe about an hour and a half long, and it is sung back and forth between the priest and the choir or the congregation if they know the music. Um so uh yeah, it's it's this kind of back and forth of of singing and of hope and acknowledging, yes, we see death, and this is a horrible thing that has happened, but here is the hope that we have as well. And so we're we're not pulling punches. Um, we we call it a funeral straight up. It's you know, we're dealing with death here, so we're gonna call it what it is. We're not gonna try to whitewash it, we're not gonna try to paper over it. Uh, we're here to mourn and lament. And so we're gonna do that, and then afterwards we're gonna go eat and we can tell the happy stories, and we can do the so we get both the lamentation and the joy, because I I'm I'm assuming on your part, but you know, that the day of the funeral, I had all of those emotions going on all at once. So it's uh and if you only do half of it, it just feels like you're feels like it's incomplete.

Matt: 17:37

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so anything else, and before because you teased a little, yeah, did Tracy have did Tracy have so let's introduce Tracy and then why don't you um Eastern Orthodox her story?

SPEAKER_00: 17:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds weird, but yeah. So um sorry. Oh man, it didn't sound good. So uh the story is uh I mean there are bits and pieces here, but I'll I'll see if I can no time to explain, let me sum up to quote Inigo Montoya. I love it. Um so uh I I had been thinking about pursuing ordination in the Orthodox Church. Uh one of the requirements for ordination, a priest can be married only one time. Uh right, exactly. So if a priest's wife dies, he can continue serving as long as he remains a widower. If he wishes to marry again, then he would have to uh lay down his orders, uh basically be laicized, and uh could then marry again. And I knew, okay, if I want to pursue ordination, remarriage is off the table, if I want to get married again, ordination's off the table. So I'm gonna sit with this for a while. And for the next five years after Melinda's death, I was thinking I'm pursuing ordination. Uh and and was not looking to date. I think the one time, maybe two years in, I uh I met a young lady at a friend's wedding. And the moment I thought, hey, I could probably ask her out was when grief just pounded on me. Yeah, it's oh man. I I went home, fell apart, uh, and realized, okay, number one, I'm not ready for anything. Right. And number two, I really need to check in with my doctor and see what's going on because I feel like there's some depression underneath all this. This was more than just grief. This is I I need some help.

Matt: 19:37

There's there's there's something going on here.

SPEAKER_00: 19:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, yeah, so I but I can I sat with it for a couple more years and realized after about five years, um, I was the the first choir director at St. Anne's. And there we had a couple of assistant choir directors, but I directed the choir at every wedding that we had at church. And I realized five years on. Why I was doing that. Because if I was directing the choir, I could have my back to what was going on. But still be there. I was there. Right. But you know, it's okay. I'm going to focus on, I'm focusing on the music. I'm singing word, word, word, but I'm kind of blocking all this out. And I would go home after weddings. And I I remember a few times just climbing into bed and just just feeling absolutely horrible. Um, you know, really down. And and I realized, what kind of priest would I be? Because you can't say I don't do weddings.

Matt: 20:36

You know, it's like if if if I'm carrying some bitterness here, listen, the only type of weddings I do are the crying type. So I'm your guy. If you want me to marry you, but there's not gonna be a drawing in the house, including mine, then um I'm your guy. But then I'll do it. There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_00: 20:50

That's awesome. But I I realized for you, yeah. You know, if I've got this bitterness here, I really if I were to pursue ordination, uh, it would destroy me. It would just eat me alive. So I realized I need to take this off the table. And that was when I was ready to look at getting married again and realized for the welfare of my soul, it would be better to get married again.

Matt: 21:17

You know what's interesting though is like in that in that journey you're describing, and I think this kind of goes to something I I I wish more wit, and I can only speak for us our guy group, um, that more guys would acknowledge like the thing you're avoiding is probably the thing that's gonna drive you to what you need to do, right? So like I'm avoiding weddings, or like I'm avoiding being happy at weddings and my back's turned, right? But I'm gonna keep the ornation on the plate. So I I have this goal where I would never have to get married again, right? But yet you can't you can't be at a wedding and be happy, right? It's like a conflict. And where that I think one of my therapists always talk about tension, and they're like, the where you find tension, there's and that's a general phrase, right? There's something going on there that's worth looking at, right? Wow, and which is interesting because had you, had you, let's say since day one, you take an orination off the table, you wouldn't have had the tension, you'd be like, I'm doing weddings, whatever. But you left it on the table for a while, creating this tension inside of you that then led you to go, like, let me examine on, and like as you just said, for my soul, for my soul, I need to, I need to do this.

SPEAKER_00: 22:22

So that was when uh I met Tracy. Uh I was still working doing software development uh for a company over in Knoxville. And I met Tracy. She was one of the corporate trainers for the company that I was working at. And I remember the first day that I met her, I was in a class learning the application that the developers worked on. I'd been there a couple of months, and and uh she was there to present the payroll module of this application. And she handed around her business card and said, Hi, um, my name is Tracy Carleen, but on Friday my name is going to be changing, and so you can scratch that out and put Castleberry. She was going through a really rough divorce uh at the time. So we met during the class, and then I didn't see her again for about four months, something like that. Uh, we ended up sitting next to each other at company Christmas party and talking about music. Yeah, I was directing the choir at St. Anne's. I was also singing with the Oak Ridge Symphony and Chorus. Uh, Tracy was singing in the choir at the church that she had joined uh in Knoxville. So we got to talking about music and and really hit it off well. Uh and so over the next couple of months, we were swapping CDs and sharing music with one another. Um, Tracy had lived in Paris for 10 years, taught English as a second language. So she had all of this amazing music from France that I had never heard before. It's like, wow, you know, there's there's all this new stuff to discover. Um a friend set us up going to the opera. Uh so we saw La Bo M, had a great time there. Uh, and then in April, you know, we'd we'd been kind of hanging out, going to the movies a time or two, sharing music. Uh, in April, we went to the opera and uh I took her home that evening and kissed her, and it's like, oh man, I've this this is where I need to be. And so, but I also knew um, so only one other time in my life did my instinct say marry this woman, and that was Melinda. And we had been friends for eight years, and it had taken us that long to finally get married. We were married uh not quite two and a half years when she died.

Matt: 24:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:54

Tracy was the only other person that I'd ever met that my instinct said marry this one. And so I was not gonna wait eight years. It's sort of yeah, and and when you've been married before, it's in some ways I don't know how else to put it. If you don't know what you're missing, it's a lot easier not to open that door. But once you've been married and enjoyed the marital relationship, let the reader understand. Yes, it's like, oh man, I got feelings for this woman. If this could work, we don't need to have a long engagement. So uh I proposed in June on my birthday. So how could she say no? She'd ruined my birthday that way, right? Um and then we got married in October. Uh, this was in 2003. Um, and yeah, it was it was the right thing. I mean, it's not to say, oh, it's happily ever after and everything is perfect, because every marriage, um everyone's got issues, everyone's got stuff to work through. I mean, there there's all that it's it's like the old joke about masturbation. You know, you ask guys, do you, and the you know, 10% will say they do, and 90% lie. Right. It's like do you have a happy marriage, or do you have, yeah, I got some stuff, and all the others are lying about it, right?

Matt: 26:20

Everybody else is like, we're perfectly happy.

SPEAKER_00: 26:22

Exactly. Yeah.

Matt: 26:23

So uh so you did good for you for not waiting eight years. We were kind of the same way. We were like, we were old enough to we're like, this is going someplace. Yeah, all right, let's kind of speed this up. So yeah, um, so so didn't wait eight years. Um, you guys obviously got married. How long are you guys married for?

SPEAKER_00: 26:39

How long were you uh just over 18 years? Okay. So we got married uh October of 2003. Yep. Uh first child came along uh May of 2005. Awesome. Our our daughter, and then our son came uh June of 2007.

SPEAKER_02: 26:57

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 26:58

So we had the two kids. Um yeah, yeah. Uh we were together 18 years, and Tracy died uh this past February. Uh February the 11th is the date on the death certificate. That's when brain death was declared. I'll I'll get into details in a moment. But uh so I've been a widower for 24 and a half years and for nine months. Uh you know, just so it's like long time and also back to a short time. Um, so yeah, here in a bit we can talk a little, maybe you know, what's different, what's the same, what's similar.

Matt: 27:41

Uh yeah, the other one is like, what did it what did it bring back up to? My gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 27:47

Oh man. Yeah, there's there were some I will say this. Uh you're never done with grief. You are never done with it. There's always you work on it and you put it back on the shelf, and then when you're ready or when something comes up, you take it down and you work it on it work on it some more. And there were some things in the aftermath of Tracy's death, uh, one or two things that I hadn't finished dealing with from Melinda's death. And one or two things that actually came to the point where I needed to be with that. Uh so yeah, yeah. Um yeah, it's so many things in life are are interconnected and they'll bring each other up. They'll and yeah, yeah.

Matt: 28:37

It's interesting because as I don't know if I said it when we first started, but you know, when you the really cool and really, I think, respectful and admirable things that the Eastern Orthodox does around loss and like this the fact that everyone puts it on their calendar and they're gonna come check on you in a year. That's pretty powerful, man. That's awesome. Um heck, I mean, you know, I'm I'm four plus years out, and not that you ever forget the day, I think it becomes like a blind spot on your calendar. You know it's something, but you don't really want to acknowledge it, but you can't acknowledge it like you don't want to go well uh if you go full tilt, you just go straight into you know pull the covers over your head and not get out of bed. So it's this weird kind of dichotomy, but it's really cool that they check on you. But the thing that I'm I I hope more and more people understand whether it was a parent, a spouse, a child, a close family member, a really good friend. One of the the quirky things about grief is that you know, sometimes you put it up on the shelf and like you're saying, you thought, you know, whatever, give examples going on, but you were done with it. Uh that part, not grief in general, that part of grief, right? And then something completely straight in our face that we aware is coming, or sometimes we talk about that blind, you know, the little it's the little knock that knocks you over. You're like, I thought it would be the anniversary, right? Or a wedding anniversary knocking. No, it's the fact that when I was cleaning out a drawer, there's a bunch of hair ties, and you're like, dang it. So it's it's interesting, right? Grief has a really weird way, or like, you know, if you had a friend pass away, you're like, Oh, yeah, I know, you know, it's been a couple of years, and then all of a sudden you're at a you're at a you're at a restaurant and they some they happen to have your friend's favorite beverage, and you just bawl your eyes out. You're like, it's been five years, what am I doing? It's like because it's a thing, and it's okay. And I think what I really would I really hope a lot of people continue to hear when we have these conversations is that whatever it is, it's okay. Like it that's yeah, like I I was in I someone interviewed me for a podcast earlier this week, and I said, if I could wave a magic wand, and I and I think I need to write these three things down. I couldn't remember one of them in the moment, but if I could wave a magic wand, one of the things I'd remove for anybody that's grieving is shame. Just get rid of it. Oh, yeah, don't be ashamed. Absolutely. Don't be ashamed, don't be ashamed not to date, don't be ashamed to wear sweatpants for six months. Cry, fall apart if that's what you need to do. Don't don't be ashamed to like one evening go out and bust a move on the dance floor and drink too much and have a really good time. Everyone's like, you know, he she's way too happy to you know for their husband to have been dead two months ago, and then the next day completely far apart. Don't be ashamed of it. Wow, get rid of shame because grief, grief is gonna just it's gonna throw all sorts of wack-a-doo stuff at you, and and to try to like then blend shame in there because then you kind of have to feel like you're hiding it away, and that's not healthy either. It need you it you you need to acknowledge it and be with it, like you were saying. So so the two so um the two the two kiddos, um sorry, you I did you how did trace how did Tracy pass away? How did Trace passed? Yeah, I realized we yeah, you kind of yeah, I was and I was like, oh, do you want to yeah?

SPEAKER_00: 31:36

So both both times it was sudden and unexpected. So uh on Wednesday, February 9th, I got home from the gym. I had just enough time to drop my bag. Uh my son was working on homework, my daughter was online playing DD with some of her friends, and Tracy was uh getting ready to throw a couple of pizzas in the oven. We were gonna have dinner, and uh, so we just started talking about our day. And all of a sudden, uh out of nowhere, while the oven's preheating, I'd been home only five to ten minutes or so. And she suddenly grabbed the counter and said, something's not right. I I don't feel right, I don't know what's wrong, but something is wrong. And um I grabbed a chair so that she could sit down. And for a minute or two, she was really pale and then suddenly flushed um and and then was was nauseated, but she was kind of not very responsive. She had just had an allergy shot that afternoon, and I thought maybe this is a reaction because she'd had reactions before. But a minute or so into this, I realized this isn't acting like anaphylaxis. There's something going on, and this is a 911 kind of thing. So, you know, I call 911, get the ambulance rolling. Uh, by this point, the kids have come into the kitchen because they hear there's something going on. So I give them each a job. It's uh I tell my son, go out to the front stoop and keep an eye for the ambulance because it's dark. Let's make sure they don't miss the house.

Matt: 33:14

This is interesting. My mom did this with my younger brother as my as her dad, my grandpa was passing away. She was like, he needs to be out of the house. And she sent him into the front of the house to like wave down the MDs. That's massive. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 33:26

It wasn't so much he needs to be out of the house as it is again, coming back to everyone needs something to do, because otherwise you're just standing there. It's like, ah, what what? Uh and and so I sent my son out to watch for the ambulance, and I told my daughter, grab your phone, okay, dial this number. This is Father Stephen, who is the retired priest from St. Anne's. He's also my godfather. And uh when he gets on, tell him something's up with mama, and you know, ask, you know, we're we're gonna need some help uh because I think mama's going to the hospital, I'll be there, and we need someone to come and stay with y'all. And then I just stayed with Tracy praying the Jesus prayer, which is so it's sort of the heart of Orthodox spirituality. And it's simply Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Uh, it is the entirety of the gospel summed up in one sentence. And if you ever see like an Orthodox Christian or a monk or a nun with a prayer rope, which looks kind of like a rosary, that is the prayer that they are praying as they're counting through the knots on the prayer rope. And so I just stayed with Tracy and kept praying. Uh, and then the ambulance came, the EMTs checked her out. She was still conscious, uh, they were able to help her walk out the door. And the last interaction that I had with her was when I was giving her her icon of her patron saint, uh St. Jean Viev of Paris, as they were loading her up on the ambulance. Um, come to find out, Tracy had an aneurysm that we never knew about until it blew, and it just ruptured uh while we were talking, while she was telling me about her day. Um so yeah, just very sudden, by the time my godmother got here to stay with the kids, and I had packed a bag and got to the hospital, uh and was able to get into the emergency room, and they told me, okay, it's the room at the end with the glass, and I knew, okay, that's the ICU emergency room. We're into some pretty serious shit right here. Uh, you know, and and uh she never regained consciousness. Um yeah, yeah. So it was the next morning she was transported to a local or a hospital in Knoxville that had a surgeon that they were going to attempt to repair the aneurysm. And um while I was waiting, my sister-in-law, who's a physician, uh, got up from Atlanta. She was waiting with me. And when a lady came into the waiting room and called us and said, We need to take you to uh another room over here, I knew at that point Tracy was gone. It's like the only reason they're gonna come and take you out of the waiting room is because they're gonna give you bad news and they don't know if you're gonna fall apart in front of everybody that's there. So I I knew in my gut that she was gone, and sure enough, as soon as the surgeon came in, he said, Yeah, I started the procedure, and first thing was to inject dye. And when I went to push the plunger and it wouldn't go in, I knew that there was no no fluid movement, which meant there was nothing, there was nothing, yeah, that that it was done. So um I was still, yeah, I'd gotten home from the gym the night before. I was still caked in salt and sweat and in workout clothes, and I'd been up all night. Um and at this point, my priest had gotten to the hospital and I said, please don't announce to the parish until I have a chance to tell the kids because I don't want them to hear from anyone else. Uh my daughter had stayed home from school, my son had gone to school because all they knew in the uh as of the morning was mom's in the hospital, right? So my sister-in-law and I went to the high school to get my son and broke the news to him there, and then we came home and broke the news to my daughter, so I didn't even get to do that all at one go. It's like I had to I had to do it twice.

SPEAKER_01: 37:38

And as I told people afterwards, I never ever wanted to break my kid's heart again like I had to that day. Um, that was just oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:03

So my parents came to town, my brother and his family came to town, uh, my in-laws came, my sister-in-law was there, uh, we all converged on the hospital that evening with um my priest and also the retired priest from St. Anne's, who is my godfather. Um we we had to get permission from hospital administration because the nurse initially didn't want to let a a group of people because COVID stuff, and this was neurological ICU and so on. But I said, look, this is really important. We have prayers that we pray at the time the soul leaves the body. Um, you know, these are my priests, and I want to go back with my kids. There's only five of us. I know it's more than the rules, but but but I also, yeah, I also told the nurse, I totally understand you have rules. Could you please talk to someone in administration, somebody who could waive this? And I found over the years, be nice to the nurses. Um be I mean, nurses are awesome. Nurses are just incredible, they work so hard, they take great care of the patients. Be nice to the nurses. And if you have anything to ask for, just say please and and be kind, say please. And if you respect them, they will often see what they can do. And sure enough, I mean, this nurse spoke to someone in administration. Yes, you can do that. So we were able to go in, my kids and my two priests and me, and pray the prayers that we needed to do right then. And then we took it in turns. Uh, you know, my parents, um, my brother and his family, Tracy's parents, Tracy's sister and her family, uh, to say our goodbyes. Um so we were there at the hospital for a couple of hours, and when we were done, I'm driving home. With my kids, and each of them at first my daughter said, Hey, I want to sleep over at my friend's house. And then my son said, Hey, yeah, I want to sleep over at my friend's house. Oh boy. And my initial reaction is, Oh, mama just died. You know, we need to be together as a family and support each other. And then I just stopped. I have learned, don't act out of grief. When when you hit something that you you have resistance to or something, stop and breathe. Because it might actually be something that you need to do. And when I stopped for a second and just breathed and thought about it, I realized, you know what? No one can carry grief alone. No one can do this alone. I have been up for 40 plus straight hours without sleep. I am exhausted. I have someone who can take care of my kids. And both of them said they wanted to go to school the next day because they they wanted normal. Yep. Oh, yeah. It wasn't normal, but but that's what they wanted.

Matt: 41:02

No, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00: 41:03

But the realization, okay, if there's someone who will take care of my kids, then I can go home and take care of me.

SPEAKER_02: 41:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:11

And so I said, okay, text your friends. If their parents will get you to school tomorrow, they they verified it. So we came home, they got their school bags, they got their clothes, they got their toothbrushes. Their friends were five to ten minutes away from the house. So I was able to drop them off, come home, get a shot of bourbon, fall apart, and then just climb in bed and pass out for six hours because I was exhausted, and that's what I really needed more than anything. And I didn't have to worry about my kids the next morning. Someone was taking care of them.

Matt: 41:46

I'm glad you said the glad that you said the thing about like if you're in, well, if you're in a grief moment, whether you're in the massive explosion of grief in that moment or taking grief off the shelf, like we were talking about. There is something to like I see a lot of tension in my own life with grief when I have this vision of something that I want it to be in grief, right? Whatever, a really cool picture book. And then over time I go, like, why is this why why is the vision of it so important, not the actual like something needs to be handled? Like, why why can't other people make the picture book? I don't have to control this whole thing, right? Kind of like you were like, our family needs to be gathered. Hold on, wait a minute, we'll be together for a very long time going forward. If there are people willing to help me in this process, and the kids are voluntarily probably feeling like dad's tapped, mom's gone. We want we want we want to feel normal, even though we know for the probably deep down in the rest of our lives we will never be normal again after this happened. So that's really that's a really good point because I do I do believe that there are times people in like you said, acting out in their grief, and it seems like they're holding on to something desperately that just isn't that important. I mean, really, like if both your kids were stable enough to be like, you know what, I want to go over to a friend's house because dad, you're a hot mess, you stink, you haven't had a shower. We we want to go to school, people are probably gonna give us extra hugs. We know it's gonna be weird, but we're cool with that. It's fine. And you're and you would have said, no, and what could you imagine what that night would have been like? Like you wouldn't have gotten any sleep. I don't want to, right? You wouldn't have gotten any sleep, the kids would have been mad, like you'd like, but we're together. No, you're not. You got no three really mad people, you're not together at all.

SPEAKER_00: 43:37

So three cats and a duffel bag, you know, just it would have been ugly. This yeah, so there you go. That's yeah, you know, I thought about it earlier today and realized you know, even Jesus didn't carry his cross the whole way. You know, someone else had someone else helped carry it. And I'm not Jesus, so you know, it's I know I can't carry this cross alone. But yeah, it the other thing too that that helped me to realize uh is my kids are teenagers, and a part of growing up is they are individuating themselves, they they have their friends, they have their circle of support.

Matt: 44:16

Right. The we that we that we are not in, nor should we part of that circle of support. We are part of their grand total of support, but they should have a friend, they should have a friend that they text things to that you or I as the parent should never read. Right, right. Like, like and a week probably should read it. Right, well, yeah, we don't mean there's things that we should never read as their parent, right? Like sacred text, not not not things we need to parent on, but like yes, right, because that's what they're there for.

SPEAKER_00: 44:44

Yeah, but you know, what kind of confirmed it for me too was the realization is both of my parents are still alive. And over the next several days, every time I talked to my folks, yeah, they were asking, Do you need us to come down? What do you need us to do? Do you need and and I was answering, no, Yulian and Daniela are you know, Daniela's making the koliva, or Father Daniel has got this, or you know, I've got this friend, my buddy at work is covering my projects, and I'll and I realized I'm doing what my kids are doing. My parents want to jump in and you know, because as parents, we want to fix it, we want to make it better.

Matt: 45:21

Well, like you said, we you we don't want to see our kids suffer. We'll do anything to stop that, even though it's part of growing.

SPEAKER_00: 45:28

But yeah, exactly. And I realized, oh, if this is how I'm relating to my parents, maybe this is good and healthy that this is how my kids are relating to me, is they are seeking out, and I know the kids that they hang with, and you know, especially the kids they wanted to stay with that night. I thought, okay, these are great kids, and you know, these these parents, I absolutely trust them with my kids, and it'll it'll be okay. Uh, and in fact, the friends that they stayed with sat with them during the funeral. Um so again, we had the funeral at St. George uh because we needed more space than what we have at St. Anne's, uh, sat in the same pew that I sat in for Melinda's funeral. I was just on the opposite end of the pew, but it was the same one. Um packed house. Um and it was just amazing. I'll tell you, if if you'd like, um, so the funeral was streamed because we also knew there were a lot of folks who weren't able to come to the funeral. So I can send you links to the YouTube if you want. Yeah, I'd be more than happy to. If people want to see snippets of what an Orthodox funeral looks like or hear some of the music, or yeah. Um, so the the sermon that Father Daniel did, he knocked it out of the ballpark. It was it was just amazing talking about how we weren't created for death. And when we're faced with death, you know, there's something in us we want to fight back against it. It's like, how do you fight against this? But he transitioned. So when he got to the end of the part that he wrote, he then transitioned into a sermon that is read in every Orthodox church all around the world on Easter night. Um, it was written in the 400s, 300s, excuse me. Um, 600 years is really important. Yeah, well, you know, it really is. A long time ago. Um and transitioned into the sermon that all of us there who were Orthodox heard that and we heard he's preaching Easter, he's preaching resurrection. And it's one also that when it gets to that point, the second half of that sermon, there's a bit of a call and response that's going on in there, and all of us there knew and and responded back. It's like this is so incredible. And I can I can send you a link to the full text of St. John Chrysostom's sermon as well. I mean, it's just it it is amazingly powerful. So um, yeah, so we had the funeral, uh, we had the burial, uh, a very good friend, uh, Tracy was godmother to Benoit's youngest son. Benoit got his visa, he got his papers together, he dropped God only knows how much money on a plane ticket and flew over from France and spent the week here. Like uh what I need right now, more than anything, is a bottle of red wine, a Frenchman, and an ugly cry. And that's what I got. Um, it was just it was exactly what I needed.

Matt: 48:41

That's um you know what's amazing in these moments of grief too? I unbeknownst to me post my wife passing, I have I'm very fortunate to have some really, really good guy friends for a really, really long time. And so my wife passed in September. So randomly one of the guys is like, Oh yeah, I'll come, I'll come help you get to Ohio and back. So my mom had plans for a trip because we didn't know my wife was gonna die. And so I'm like, mom, go like just go, please. Like, you don't need to like come to Ohio for a second celebration of life. This is it's okay. Go on your trip, it's it's all right with your friend. So I didn't have her to to assist. Um, and I'm sure if I was in a lurch, the family Ohio someone would have put my buddy was like, No, come out. I was like, cool. And then a couple months later, another one of my buddies like he goes, Hey man, um, like I have like some vacation days I have to use up. So I'm I'm gonna come visit you. And I'm like, All right, everyone loves to come to the Midwest in January, you weirdo. Can't remember when he came, but it was somewhat well, like a year and a half later, the like there's there's five guys that I'd really put in, like, well, there's more than that, really. But these five guys got together and unbeknownst to me, they're like, Okay, you're kind of like your nine days, 40. They're like, Yeah, you're gonna go out when cool. We're gonna give them like three more months, then I'll go out. And so they just showed up. And so what I was getting to is like, it's amazing the people that show up when this stuff happens, and sometimes you don't really realize it until after the fact, you're like, I never would have expected that from that person. Wow, you know what I mean? Like, you don't you don't categorize like uh what was the gentleman's name from France? Benoit Benoit. I'm sure he's in a very good category, but that's a hell of a I mean that's the next level, right? Like yeah, oh yeah, whatever. Seven years ago, had you someone told you, like, hey, you know what? A French guy's gonna come visit you after your wife dies, you'd be like, what are you talking about, right? Sure enough, right? Like we've known Benoit for about seven years, and so but like think about like showed up, and it's amazing that when and so I feel too that like you're saying, like that's what you needed. I I think the my friend that rode with me to Ohio, my friend that showed up just to be with me, like be present with me, and they also all made the trip for the celebration of life too, which was huge. Um, that I was like, those were the people I needed in my presence in that moment looking back, it's amazing. And so when those people do show up, maybe take a little list, and when you have time after the grief concussion's gone off, just kind of whether you want to or just give a nod to to recognize those folks, because I think I've I think more people show up that way and we miss it in grief because I mean it is complete chaos, right?

SPEAKER_00: 51:25

Well, I'm gonna give a couple other shout-outs real quick. I mean, I I know there are there are some that I probably am not gonna have, but um so the day after everything went down, or well, the day after you know I managed to get some sleep that Friday morning, uh, they were gonna doing be doing the brain death tests uh at the hospital. And I'm getting dressed, I'm about to walk out the door, make sure I feed the cats and and everything. And my phone rings and I pick it up, and it says, buddy of mine, Hunter McFarlane in Murfreesboro. We studied together in Germany years ago. And he said, It is a gorgeous day, the sun coming up over I-40, and I am halfway between Murfreesboro and Knoxville. I just felt like the Lord wanted me to be there for you today, whatever you need. And he just showed up at the hospital or showed up at the hospital. I told him which one, and he stayed with me that day. I mean, just a friend to talk to. And uh at the end of the day, he bought me. Um so I long story short, several years ago I had a trip to Scotland. I parked my car at his house, he took me to the airport. Uh, so as a thank you gift, I brought him back a bottle of scotch from Oban, which is uh a city or small town on the west coast of Scotland, and he really loved it. Oh, Oban's delicious. Oh yeah, it's amazing stuff. So oh well, even better. So after the hospital and everything, back to the house that evening, uh, Hunter ran by a liquor store and he comes back with a bottle of 18-year-old Oban. And oh yeah, oh yeah. It was like, oh man, you are a friend. Um another really good friend of mine who uh the kids know her as Aunt Carrie. Uh Carrie was in graduate school at the same time I was an undergraduate. We've been friends for 35 years, and she she was there when Melinda died. Um, she was there for me and the kids when Tracy died. Uh, just has has been such a good friend and support. And then finally, um I mean, everyone at St. Anne's has been so supportive. But while the brain death tests were going on, I called the priest at the local um uh Russian church here in town. They when they have funerals, there's a a small family-owned cemetery close to their church, and they've worked out a deal with the family and and they do their burials there. So I called Father Job and he said, Yeah, I'll go to bat for you with the family. I'll ask them if you can do the burial there. Because I know they go out and bless the graves a few times a year. I thought that's where I want Tracy buried. And then he said, Have you picked out a casket yet? I said, No, I'm going to the funeral home this afternoon. And he said, Okay, don't buy one. What do you prefer? Um, light oak or dark pine. And I said, Light oak. He said, Great choice. We have someone in the congregation who handmakes them, and this is this is our gift to you. Which funeral home? And it will be there today. And by the time I got to the funeral home that afternoon, the casket was there, and it was absolutely gorgeous, handmade, white pine with the Tresagian prayer, holy God, holy mighty, holy immortal, have mercy on us, painted on the side in beautiful script. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was just such a kind gift. So I want to, as I say, I want to give a shout out to uh you know, to Father Job and the people at St. Nectarios. Um, they were just so incredibly kind to do that. So yeah, just all these, all these wonderful, so many people just they they do want to step up. And I will tell you, one of the best things you can do, because you're kind of at a loss, and people say, anything we can do, give us a call. Yeah, yeah, sure. I made a point of having a list in my head. And what I learned, something I knew this time as opposed to last time, was okay, if somebody says that, stop, take a breath, look at the person in front of me. This is not just a generic anything we can do. This is from a person, recognize the person, then think about my list. And if there's something on the list that this person is a match for, give it to them right there.

Matt: 55:56

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SPEAKER_00: 57:42

Something I picked up, and we'll talk a bit on another little teaser about the retreat that I went on. Well, one of the things we talked about is you know, the widower, you're doing your grief 24-7. And for a lot of people, they are doing their grief when they're with you. But then you go home, they go home, and for a lot of people, their grief freezes and they don't process again until you're back together. But what can happen is let's say it's a month, and you've had a whole month 24-7, you've been processing on your stuff, and then you get together with them, and then theirs thaws, and they're ready to start processing grief, but you're a month past where they are, and you're not in the same place anymore. And so that's a really good analogy.

Matt: 58:31

And the other thing that's the other thing that that I think is true is is also like that may explain why some people avoid connecting with the bereaved. Because they're like, well, every time I'm with them, it makes me sad because I know that their person's not there. But we're we've we've moved forward. I really love Nora's phrase on that one. We've moved forward with living a little bit, and they show up into our house and they're like, wait a minute, why are you not just bawling your eyes out? Like I saw you three months ago, and you're like, it's been three months. I still cry, but just not when I open the door anymore, right? It's uh right, right. Um, so you did touch on you did touch on one thing I wanted to ask. I think that's really important. We'll we'll definitely highlight, you know, taking the help. I love if you have, if you can't keep it in your head, write a couple of things on a list. And again, you're right. Sum up the person, don't just be handing out random tasks to people.

SPEAKER_00: 59:25

And you'll have, and and I mean, you can't let everyone in, but there are a few, I mean, a few special. I'll tell you another I knew what I said earlier, and I'm gonna leave some names out and and they'll come to me later on. Um, but my my good friend Daniel Pennington, he and his wife Sarah, um, Tracy and I are godparents to their to their five year old. And Daniel came and stayed with me when Melinda died. My best friend from seminary, uh, Father Theron Walker, who is now out in Colorado, he came and stayed with me for a week. Uh when Tracy died. Daniel came and stayed with me and just took care of me. He's he's my gin buddy. I mean, we we get together and Tracy and Sarah would talk, and Anthony, their uh Daniel and Sarah's son would play. And Daniel and I would start mixing the martinis. Have you tried this gin? Have you tried that gin? It's like, oh man, you got to try this. So uh yeah, yeah, Daniel came and and really took care of me. I mean, there's there's just so many people. I want to thank everyone. Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 1:00:31

So what would is there anything else? And again, this isn't a comparison in like better or worse, just comparing comparing who and where you were in your life then when Melinda passed away, and then who and who and where you are in your life when um tra Tracy, yeah, Tracy uh Tracy passed away. What any other like kind of I don't want to say aha's, but it's just stuff where you're like, hey, if I could give someone two cents, this would be something else to think of, like the help list, or is there anything else? Yeah, that you learned or that you just yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:06

Um wow. Yeah, I mean, there's some things that are similar, some things different. Um, you know, Melinda and I were trying to start a family. Uh we conceived once and we lost the baby. And then we were trying for months and uh, you know, just month after month of negative pregnancy test. But when she died, I I realized some point later that even had we not lost the one baby we did conceive uh early on, if we had not lost that baby, Melinda would have been eight months pregnant when she died. And that would have been a whole nother can of worms. I mean, that would have just been yeah, that I mean it was it was I mean it was still a double loss as it was, but at least it was spaced out. It's like okay, we we deal with this loss and we deal with this grief here and we dealt with it together. And then when she died, and that Lord, it would just been I would have given anything um you know, to have to have a child together. Um so a priest friend of mine counseled me, he said, Yeah, you lost the baby early on. Pray about it. Uh she and I had picked out names. He said, if you have either give the baby a like a gender neutral name, or if you have a sense boy or a girl. And so I named the baby Theron Andrew from two of my best friends in seminary. Uh so yeah, yeah. So my daughter grew up, uh, she really has this keen sense of relationships in the family. She uh when she was little referred to Melinda as her half mama. Um she would talk about I have a big brother Theron. Uh that yeah, it just really clicked with her. Um, so let's see. Uh I know one thing I would tell myself if I could go back 24 years is do counseling, do support group, do something. I mean, I I was meeting regularly with Father Stephen Freeman, who uh is my godfather. He is a bit of a rock star in the English-speaking Orthodox world. Uh he's got a podcast, a couple of books out, he blogs, uh, he's just he's amazing. He was doing hospice chaplaincy at the time. And he was a great support. But I will tell you this um your priest is not a psychotherapist, and your psychotherapist is not a priest. And they do it's it's sort of like you go in for other medical things, you might have to see a couple different specialists if you're dealing with cancer or dealing with other things, you got others. Yeah. And and so I was meeting with Father Steven on the regular, but I really needed counseling as well, and I didn't pursue that piece. This go-around, like right after Tracy died, I got the kids and me all into counseling and was meeting regularly with Father Daniel. Um, so something that maybe came up in discussions with him or in confession, it's like, oh, this is something maybe I can unpack with my therapist or meeting with Sally, my therapist. Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, this is something maybe I really need to take to confession, and let's just cut that off and and deal with it spiritually.

Matt: 1:04:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:22

But get, you know, because emotional and spiritual are not the same thing.

Matt: 1:04:26

No, they're not.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:27

And to deal with both, yeah, I I would say do that. Wait to deal with both.

Matt: 1:04:32

Did you um and it was a perfect segue into the counseling? Um did you go as a family? Kiddos get their individual. How did how did you how did that shape out for so we each have our own?

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:45

We haven't done group or or family counseling, but um, you know, I told the kids uh straight up at the beginning, and and I mentioned it a time or two again, uh, but after their appointment, I pointed out the most I will ever ask you is, did you have a good appointment? And that's it. I will not pry, I'm not gonna ask. And I told them at the very beginning, you know, the only time your therapist might actually tell me something is if they have a feeling that there might be danger of like self-harm or suicidal ideation or anything like that. But otherwise, your counselor is your place. If you want to go and bitch about your sibling or me or you know, whatever you need to talk about, whatever you need, this is someone you can talk to and take it out of the house and air it there and work through it there.

Matt: 1:05:40

I'm a firm believer that at different stages in our lives, we all need, and I gl I I choose this very generic terminology, but like a third non-emotionally involved party in our lives to talk to. Like if you call your parents and you have decently functioning, healthy, well-meaning parents, I know not everybody does, but even as it's all, and you call them, they're gonna tell you everything great. Like they're gonna be like, You're great, wonderful, you're doing such a great job. I'm like, why do I feel like I don't? I need somebody to pitch that a little different to me, or I need someone that's looking at it from a you know, not just for my well-being. They want me to be a better person, but they may actually have to crack a few eggs to make the omelet, where like our parents are just gonna hand us the omelet. You're like, the eggs in your crack at all? They're like, we don't gotta talk about that, right? Like, like so, or of us, you know, and so I think we all need, and because someone's gonna most people that are our friends and stuff are emotionally invested in us for our own happiness and success. But if you get someone that's not, I mean, you want your therapist to be a little bit emotionally invested in you, but the whole idea is like, listen, I'm not here just to make you feel good and happy. I'm here to make try to make you to get to do some work.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:42

Yeah, let's get you to healthy.

Matt: 1:06:44

Um there's so many different places to find counseling, whether it's through your insurance, whether it's through, you know, church can have references, funeral homes can have references, friends can have references. There's those apps now. So I I I have I had someone through a cancer house we were connected to, and he still holds amazing sessions, but I felt I was like, I need something a little more regular and a little a little something different. He's wonderful. And so I I have like two I call him grief counselors. So I had my first one that was really good for the early stuff, and now I have someone that's really kind of grief counselor slash a little bit life coachish, which really helps, you know, because we we'll talk about you know random philosophical stuff to all the way to like you know, I was balling my eyes out the other day because I was folding socks or whatever it is. So it's I think it's super important. Um and so so counseling. Uh I wrote because you put it in your notes too. Um, a couple of books you found helpful. I know the group, I've bring that one up before. It's the group of men in North Carolina, it's a great book.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:43

Yeah, I read it because I I ran across the reference to it through this podcast and through the Facebook group. Um, I I bought it back in March and I devoured it in a weekend.

Matt: 1:07:53

It's fantastic. It really is a great book. It really is. And especially for us guys. Um, and then I don't know this one, Memory Eternal. Which one's that?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:01

So that one just came out uh month and a half ago. Uh the author is Sarah Byrne Martelli. Uh, she is a hospital chaplain up in New England. Uh, she's an Orthodox Christian, and this book comes at uh talking about the funeral service and grieving, and it also has uh in the back of the book uh a program for an eight-week grief support group that you could do in the parish. Uh each meeting has uh some uh a discussion topic, uh a couple passages of scripture, uh some prayers, uh, some other writings or poetry or something to read and think about uh to to do a grief support group. So um, yeah, I I discovered her book right when it came out, beginning of October. Uh I've swapped a few emails with Sarah and uh seems like a really, really awesome person. Um uh neat lady. She's been doing hospital chaplaincy for about 20 years now.

Matt: 1:09:03

Oh wow, she's got some she's so she's got the chops. Yeah, I was gonna say she's got yeah, she's been through it. And then the last one, I don't I don't know if I ever read this one. And not last, sorry, but and but I've seen the title, so now I'm wondering if I should go back and read it. I'm greeting as fast as I can.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:19

Yes. So I picked that book up when Melinda died back in '98. So when Melinda died, Google wasn't even a thing at that point. I mean, that's how far back I don't know. Uh I mean, the internet was there. Uh Navigator was still around.

Matt: 1:09:36

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:37

Yeah, navigator was a thing. Mosaic was Netscape.

Matt: 1:09:40

Remember Netscape?

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:41

Yeah, Netscape or Navigator. Yeah, yep, exactly. Um, so you know, there weren't we didn't have podcasts because iPods weren't a thing, iPhones weren't a thing, uh, blogs weren't even really a thing at that point. So uh you know, as far as support goes, maybe you could find grief support groups, or you go to the bookstore. And so I went to the bookstore, I found the bookcase that had books on grief. And one shelf dealt with, yeah, one shelf was for widows and widowers, and then you look over the titles, and all but two of the books are written for 60 plus year old women. And here I was, a 29-year-old man. It's like, I what is all of this? And then I found this one book, I'm grieving as fast as I can, which was written for young widows and widowers. And the word young was even in the subtitle. It's like, I I found a book aimed for me. Linda Feinberg. Uh yeah, Linda Feinberg is the is the author's name. It was written in '94. Um, it's kind of like a bowl of peanuts. Uh, each of the chapters are maybe like four, six pages long, something like that. And you look at the table of contents and they're all you know different topics. So you could, you know, kids, um, pregnant widows, uh, you know, all this, you know, what what do I do when my friends aren't there? All the so it's it's really an easy you could sit and read it cover to cover, or you could just pick it up periodically, look at the contents and say, I'm feeling like this today, and turn to that. Wow.

Matt: 1:11:23

Well, it makes sense. If you're grieving as fast as can, you gotta you gotta get through it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:26

Yeah. But I mean, she took the title from this feeling like, you know, all my friends are wanting me to rush along with this. And you know, I'm grieving as fast as I can. Well, and I love who's it.

Matt: 1:11:35

I love the other title that's really popular, is the one that's it's okay not to be okay. That one's I mean it's kind of like right, that whole like people are like, no, it's it's it's okay if I'm not it really is. It's really okay that I'm not okay. I'm supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:47

If you can't deal with it, that's your problem. So yeah, I'm gonna be who I am, and if I gotta fall apart, deal with me.

Matt: 1:11:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:54

I will say, okay, so while I was at the funeral home, uh another shout out. Uh so uh Father Seraphim, who is abbot of a monastery in Scotland, uh, I love him dearly, and he called me while I was at the funeral home uh to make arrangements, and we hit we had a video chat, and one of the things that stuck out the most in that call, just his his godly admonition, said when you're grieving, don't get up and leave the room when you feel grief coming on and leave your kids there and take your grief to a different room. The way he put it, he said, you will do so much damage to your kids if you teach them that grief is something to be ashamed of, and so you take it to a different room, you know, grieve with your kids, grieve in front of your kids. I mean, appropriately. If you're if if you're gonna be throwing things and and in hysterics, you know, you don't want to scare them witless. You know, rhymes with witless.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:56

Um almost done. Yes, I'm almost done. You can come if you want to, but go. I'll check with the Jojo.

unknown: 1:13:14

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:15

Quite alright. Solo dad.

Matt: 1:13:18

There it is, folks. Solo dad.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:20

Yep, yep, yep, yep. So um, but yeah, Father Seraphim was was just so kind. Uh and when I told him it was.

Matt: 1:13:29

You know, and it's again not grieve.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:31

Do what you gotta do. Well, and and from a do it as a family.

Matt: 1:13:34

Well, and as an in and man perspective, right? Like, you know, so much as like, you know, don't show your emotions unless it's like, you know, violent rage. That's a problem. But gosh forbid if you shed a tear. I'm like, no, yeah, it's all right. And I know, I know my little who was just in here two seconds ago, you know, I've told her, you know, she I must have a very specific look on my face when I start to like get melancholy and and specifically around like missing my wife, because she'll be like, Dad, do you miss mama right now? I'll be like, Yeah, do I get like a I must get a very specific look because she really cues in on it. And I just tell her, it's like, you know, and sometimes it's like I miss the way she organized her paperwork, I miss the way she holds my hand, I miss the way, you know, whatever it is. And I just tell her because and it's okay for me to be sad in that moment, and then it comes and it goes, and that's all right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:17

If you want your kids to be honest with you, yeah, how could you be anything less? And you know, I tell my kids like you sad right now? No, no, exactly. How dare you ask me? You're the child, I'm the parent. Yeah, you don't question my own.

Matt: 1:14:32

Yeah, exactly. Um, you rap scallion. Um, good books. Okay, so um was there any that you that popped to mind that weren't on the the ones you shared with me?

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:43

Um no, not not during the conversation. I mean, those were those were just the main ones that yeah, the biggies that popped up. Um, yeah, and I will say also, so I told Father Seraphim, I'm thinking about bringing the kids to Europe this summer just to get out of town when school is out. And I mean, this would be a crazy idea if I had no idea how they would travel, but they've been to Europe twice before. It's like I know they travel well, we can do this. Um I took six months off of work. I I had the wherewithal, I had the life insurance, so that was my salary. I gotta take care of my kids, number one. I gotta get them through school, I've gotta see to their needs, I've gotta deal with legal and financial, number two. I gotta take care of me. Well, actually, that's number two, or number one, so I can take care of the kids. Who cares about the order? You get it. So but I knew also uh we got summer vacation coming up. We will sit on the couch and get depressed. We gotta do something different. So I planned a five-week trip. We started in Scotland. Father Seraphim said, bring the kids. Normally it wouldn't be appropriate, but bring them to the monastery. Uh the sisters will take care of them, just have a few days here. So uh we we started in Scotland, had two weeks in the UK. I met uh several people that I had met online through COVID on Zoom, uh, in the village of Tilston, that my family name comes from. Yep. Uh so we had there, we had a few days in London, caught up with friends, saw a few shows on the West End. Then we took the train to France, spent a week with Benoit and his family, and had a blast. Uh, got to spend time with my wife's godson's godfather and his family. Uh, I had my birthday in a small French village, uh, you know, under the stars. It amazing food, amazing drink, good company. Um, a few days in Paris with so my wife was a French teacher at the high school in town. The other French teacher was in Paris the same time that we were, and I don't know the city at all. So we had a tour guide, Elizabeth booked into the hotel uh that we were staying in. So we had a few days in Paris, a couple of days in Strasbourg, then over to Baden-Baden in Germany. And when my son, who's taking German, told his teacher, uh, we're going to Germany. I think dad picked Baden-Baden. And Sabina said, Oh, that's amazing. My hometown is just 30 miles away from there. And she and her husband were there in Germany the day the same time that we were. And so we met up and went for a hike in the Black Forest, and we had time there. So I yeah, I took the kids on a big trip.

Matt: 1:17:29

This feels like I wrote down, I wrote down this feels like eat but pray grieve.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:34

Yeah, just about, just about. Oh, I will tell you, the eating and the praying were fantastic. Um, yeah, yeah. Just all the families. Uh, the there's a Greek Orthodox community in Shrewsbury. We stayed with Father Penteleyman and his family. Um just uh an amazing trip all the way around. Um and so this was this was just this last summer, right? Yeah, yeah, the month of June. Yeah, because we all needed that. Um yeah, so that was that was the summer. We're back into school. Um, the kids are hanging in there, doing well. I'm proud of them. Um they're they're busy with their activities, and so now here we are in the fall, and we're about nine months in. So you know the novelty is gone. And right.

Matt: 1:18:24

But we just now I don't want to say the novelty, so let's do let's do the which came first? The blogging or the tr retreat?

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:34

Which so the retreat came first, and it's all well, it's almost simultaneous. So the retreat was just a week ago. Um this year, uh so I found out about it when I was my last night in in Europe when we were in Germany, and I was settling in for the night and just kind of browsing on the web and ran across the story of this widower named Daniel Brooker, whose uh first wife died of cancer, uh leaving him at age 30 with two small kids. And a couple years after his first wife died is when he met Brittany, who is a young widow with three kids of her own. And the two of them ended up getting married. Uh Brittany had already started uh doing retreats and building a network of young widows that had kids. And so Daniel started this uh refuge widower retreat in 2000. Uh so the one I went on last week was the third one that they've done. And I so needed this for almost 25 years. Um I don't know about your experience, but I will just throw this out there. Years ago, I read an article, it was on the internet, so it must be true. Uh but yeah, it said that anytime you're in a group of people, it's just natural that you look at the group and your brain starts. Sorting out what are the ways that everyone in the group is the same, and what are ways that I am unique or different from everyone else in this group. And from I mean, uh, from the beginning, uh like I'd be at a business meeting, I'd be sitting at a table with five or six other people, and then out of nowhere, we're talking about code and software development, and then out of nowhere comes the thought, and I'm the only widower at the table. Yeah, it's just that you feel like you got this big W on your forehead. I don't know about your experience, but it just it'll hit you.

Matt: 1:20:34

You're in a group, and I think it runs in the background 24-7.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:40

So Yeah. But for the first time in 25 years almost, it'll be 25 years in April since Melinda's death. Um but last week I met over 20. I mean, there were 18 of us doing the retreat, and then there were uh widowers that were on staff running it. Um so I met over 20 other guys who knew who just got it. And for the first time, it's like I'm sitting at a table, I'm eating a meal, and we're all the same.

Matt: 1:21:14

And we all have done.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:16

I mean, the situation, the circumstances could be different, but this feeling of yeah, I'm not the freak. I'm not you know, I'm not the odd one out. Um I'm at a and just that yeah, for the first time in almost 25 years to be able to sit at a table and feel normal.

Matt: 1:21:37

What is the name of the retreat?

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:38

So um Refuge Widowers Retreat. Okay, and I'll send you the the link to the website. So um, and one of the also just an amazing thing. So it is um Christian based. Yep. Uh the pastor that was there, uh Davey Blackburn, is a uh young pastor from Indianapolis. Um he himself is a remarried widower. Um, the fellow who had the vision for this, Daniel Brooker, is a remarried widower. Um and so the first night we're sharing our stories, and he gave us a framework for here's a way you can tell your story in five minutes. And so now we're gonna go around the room, everyone tell your story, and you got five minutes. And and we managed to get it. I think most guys went over maybe a minute or two. They got around to me and I asked, Do I get 10?

Matt: 1:22:31

Uh everyone's like, Oh, this is this is the one up there over here. You win, you win.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:41

Exactly. It's like you can piss farther than anyone else here. So uh, but but after I talked, Davey stopped it and said, Okay, let's stop for a moment. Um, you know, everyone here, we're all you know, evangelical, non-denominational, Protestant. Um, Jim is Eastern Orthodox, and I really feel like there's stuff that he's bringing to the table um that we don't even know about that could be very helpful. So I would just encourage everyone, you know, pick his brains, find out, you know, talk to him, find out what you can. And I've you know, even coming from a different place, but the fact we were all widowers together, and you know, I mean, it doesn't get more human than sharing grief. And so, you know, that the time that I had there at first I thought two days was too short, but I realized afterwards, no, two days is just right. We had a little bit of structure, we had a couple of structured activities, but we had a lot of free time. And they rented a house on Lake Lanier just north of Atlanta. This was an amazing house. It was lakefront, had a pool, had a hot tub, had a movie theater room, had a billiards table. Uh, the food was amazing. Uh, the fellow who organized it, one of his best friends, is a is a professional chef. Uh, so but it was two days that we all just kind of self-selected into our own small groups, or you know, choose what activities you want to do, and then we just talked. And and it was just long enough to start to get to know some of the guys. And then afterwards, so we had a Zoom call last night, and about half of us were able to make it. And we're gonna see, we're gonna go on from there. Uh, but it's like I have a network. There are guys who get it, and I know them. I have phone numbers and email addresses. I got faces. This is not just abstract.

Matt: 1:24:43

There's well, and there's something that changes when you get in a room with somebody. There's just something that happens.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:47

Yeah.

Matt: 1:24:48

Right? There's that shared experience, there's a bunch of things, it just changes. Like, you know, I mean, part of my entire drive of starting all of this was because I couldn't find anything for it. I couldn't find anything. I I and and um specifically in social media. I knew there was retreats and stuff, but um, I just was like, There, I I there's there was just nothing for a safe space for guy to have guy feelings and say guy things about grief and be mad as hell and be sad as hell, or talk about random dates that don't go well, random dates that do go well, and you throw that in different social media groups, and you're gonna get eviscerated, and you're like, you know what? I'm just not gonna say anything, but hopefully the Facebook group is a the solo dad podcast. Facebook group is a safe space. That is fantastic. Um, do did you do you know if people go back to the retreats? Do they make it an annual thing, or is this kind of like uh you do it once, you form a group, and you just kind of stay in touch and you may do something again together? I'm just curious, is it like I say this is it like Widow Camp?

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:47

Is it like Widow Camp where every summer we go back and we Oh, I sent I texted my kids photos like the the night we had steaks for dinner, and I got a picture and sent it to my son. So I got home and I'm telling my son about it, and he said, Are you going back next year? Could I go? It's like sorry, dude. Yeah, trust me, I had a great time, but you go to summer camp, you'll have a ball, you do your own camp, you do you, I'll do me. I'm hanging out with a bunch of guys who cry. I mean, it's that's right. You don't want to see that. You really don't want to do that, even if we do have great stakes and swimming pool and hot tub and volleyball court and movie theater and all those other things. Um yeah, it's sort of a there really is sort of a sense of this is your class. You know, it's you know, we we bonded together. And um, yeah, I'm looking forward. And and so the blog is something I thought about over the years, but I will say, you know, this life happens. You know, I got married, I had kids, um, I also have ADHD, and so it's like, oh, I gotta do this, oh, I gotta do that, oh, I gotta do the other. A blog would be a fun thing to do. Now look at this thing over here. And so I've had all these thoughts and ideas and things that I've chewed over for 20 plus years, and just you know, I've shared one-on-one with people, but I've not really organized or or put it out there. And coming out of the retreat, and the uh you know, Daniel, the fellow who had the vision for for the retreat in the first place, uh, the thing he liked to say is I don't want to waste my pain. I got something here, I need to do something with it. I don't want it to be for now.

Matt: 1:27:35

I don't want to pay. And so that's where I don't even know this guy and I don't like him. That is so good. Nailed it. It is true.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:44

That's how I feel true. It's how I feel. But it finally I came out of the retreat feeling, oh man, I'm I'm convicted by this. I need to do something. What can I do? And I one of the things I love to do when I served as a clergyman, I really enjoyed preaching and teaching. I had a ball with that. I enjoyed writing sermons. Uh okay, it's time to get off the dime. You know, I'd start and I'd stop and I'd start and I'd stop, and it's time to stop starting and just start and start a blog.

Matt: 1:28:15

So they say the hardest thing about starting anything is starting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:21

Starting, exactly. And and also it's uh so I've got this glut of ideas, and the temptation is to want to sit down and write an entire novel on the first day. And I realized uh no, that would be the fastest way to kill this. What I need to do, I just created a simple WordPress site, no bells, no whistles. I think I put a picture of me in Scotland in a green shirt. Yes, okay, you've got it up. Yeah, that's so that's when I was in Scotland back in 2016. That's on the island of Iona, where my first wife and I visited on our honeymoon. Yes, we went to Scotland in January.

Matt: 1:28:59

But in the world, she might she must have really liked you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:02

Well, she did. You know, you gotta you gotta stay warm somehow. And there you go. Well, hey. Um, but that's from from the island of Iona, from on top of the hill, the highest point where you're looking out, and it's just the Atlantic Ocean from that point.

Matt: 1:29:17

I can see yeah in the background, it's something else.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:19

Yeah. Um I decided what's the name of what's the name of the blog? Uh the name of the blog is The Joyful Widower.

Matt: 1:29:27

There you go. Good.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:28

And right now I don't even have a URL set up for it. It's just jimtilson.wordpress.com. Uh we'll send that for the show notes. Yep, it'll be here. I've got two posts up there. I decided, you know, I'm I'm just gonna write one thing a week and just paste this. Um, that way I can keep kind of regular content, but also just make it a point once a week I'm gonna sit down and whatever it is that's ready to write, then I'll put it up there. Because some ideas that I've carried for years, yeah, and some connections that I've only just started making in the past week that I feel like, yeah, I gotta sit with this for a bit, and then I'll be ready to write about that thing.

Matt: 1:30:08

But it'll be interesting to see how, because sometimes people blog for a very specific purpose, right? And it'll be interesting to see kind of where and what you authentically come to because I I mean, just even reading the the one of um and I love how you put this up there. It's uh ruminations of grief on grief, joy, love, and the cross, which is a great culmination of everything that you're doing and you've been through.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:35

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, that's uh St. Paul wrote that you know he resolved to know nothing uh except Christ and him crucified. And that was you know where he was going to preach from. And what we have in Christ is God enters into our hell, whatever it is, wherever it is, what we have is not a God who is just out there and distant and away from it all, and we're down here in a two-story universe where you know we pray to someone upstairs. No, it's a one-story universe. And what we proclaim as Orthodox Christians is that in Jesus Christ, God came to earth, became one of us, entered into the worst suffering that a human being could possibly enter into. On on Good Friday, part of the Lamentations that we sing, we talk about you know, Christ came to his friend Adam in the garden, and not finding him there, he descended into hell to look for his friend. And this, you know, this no matter where you are, no matter what you're going through, that God wants to meet you there, it's not that he's standing there and cheering you on, he comes alongside you. It's like, I'm gonna enter into this and we're gonna get through it together, and we're gonna come out the other side together.

Matt: 1:31:56

Well, that's it. That's that that's that poem, right? Where it's like the footprints in the sand, right? Where I was like, Well, why is there only one? Well, that's when I was carrying you because he was he was right there with you, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:05

And those and those drag marks there, that's where I was hanging on and pulling you where you didn't want to go.

unknown: 1:32:10

Right.

Matt: 1:32:10

What's this one where there's a body print just flapped down on the ground? Well, that's where I had to hit you upside the back of the head because you're being dumb.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:16

That's that's where you were having your little hissy fit, and then you got over it and we went on. Yeah, we kept uh exactly right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm that's where where I wanted to go is pull all this to and and just relate it to you know, grief hurts. And you know, this is where when when you're widowed, this is where you live, but this is also where God meets you. And so it's like, okay, if God showed the fullness of his glory at the cross, then that's where I need to be and be thinking about this and reflecting on this.

Matt: 1:32:51

And you know, the I am so I I I it's I've already tagged it as one of my favorite bookmarks. Um, thank you. Yeah. Well, because well, there's not a lot of like I haven't found a lot of new blogs that are talking about grief. Like, there's some old ones, like you can go find them, right? And not the dated is is the worst thing, but like knowing your journey and knowing knowing you've done it twice, which is uh double sucky. Um, but the thing the thing that I'm all I I enjoy learning and I enjoy hearing other people's is probably why I stumbled into the podcast thing, how other people go through it. The fact that just just the whole 941 year thing changes my entire perspective on most religion already. Like, I was like, wow, someone's actually considerate enough. There's there's a team or a philosophy or a belief that actually just in the grief realm, we're not gonna get into you know massive other philosophical stuff, but because like that's one of the things that I'm fascinated by, right? That that I'm like, how how does one person go through this and remain in their faith? How how does someone like you know, I very use a very loose term of, you know, I am I am spiritual, I I have a belief that there is something after this, but our puny brains can't understand it. I was raised in the church, so there's that whole journey I've been on personally, but then like you know, how does someone with no faith go through? How is someone with a faith I don't even understand, such as being like maybe Muslim or what how do they go through it? Because they've lost their what is the what does that support structure look like, right? Like, I don't like you mentioned that um if you're a priest and your wife you can't ever get married again and say a priest. I'm like, I don't know if that's the right rule, but that's the rule, right? But I find it like it's not good or bad. The difference, I think I choose to believe, I use the word think too sometimes too much. I choose to believe that when you recognize a different, it's not positive or negative, it's just different. And you can take things that are different and and envelop them into all sorts of things that are good for you, right? But if it if you go like, well, Jim's belief is bad, well, I'm not gonna envelop anything, but like the fact that it's like the the 941 year, I'm like, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:08

Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 1:35:09

That's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:11

God created the world, and you know, truth is God's truth. So, you know, it's and human beings were created to see truth. And what I would say is what I have found in orthodoxy is a full expression of truth and a place that can take joy, can take grief, can take whatever human experience you're going through, and can be healthy about it. Because, you know, there are there are also ways to be unhealthy about grief and about and you know, I think it's fair, it would be fair to point at something and say, that's not a healthy way to deal with something. But what what I would say is I found something that you know it keeps me alive. I uh you know, I'm sure your brain probably went there, but there are times where you just feel like I can't do this pain anymore. And I remember times thinking it would be so easy to just flick the steering wheel and and hit a concrete barrier or something, and you know, but what what keeps you alive?

Matt: 1:36:16

How do you hey there, friends, family, followers, both near and far, and let's not forget our tribe of allies composed of all of you solo dads. Taking a quick break in the conversation. First, to remind you to leave a review on Apple iTunes. It helps the podcast be found, and we greatly appreciate it. Second, the Solo Dad Podcast can be found wherever you're spending your time. Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok, with the handle at the SoloDad Podcast. If you or someone you know would like to be part of our private Facebook group, the name of the group is Solo Dad Group and Podcast. Maybe you're a little more old-fashioned and you'd like to send us an email with a topic to be discussed, a guest you may think may be good, or you just want to say hello. Our email address is solo dadpodcast at gmail.com. And lastly, and most importantly, we want to express our thanks and gratitude for all of the support you have given us as we do this journey for ourselves and others. And as always, we hope you find these conversations helpful, insightful, honest, and useful. Thank you for listening. And let's get us back to the conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:46

You know what? You don't have to be alone. I mean, it's you you can feel like you you miss the person. So one of the hard things about being widowed is you have spent however much time building a relationship where this is the one person you go to for emotional and physical comfort. And you know, when when you're faced with the hardest things, this is the person you go to, and then suddenly they're gone, and that's what you're dealing with, and they're not there. It's like you know, just the whole the spiritual, the physical, the emotional, everything, those needs don't go away, and there you are.

Matt: 1:38:31

The one that uh because Marsh and I were weren't together very long, um, inside of five years, but the thing that I didn't realize how quickly we formed a bond, and and like one of the things we did really well was like the volleying of ideas or the volume of like, hey babe, what do you think about this? That's super great idea, you should go do it. Hey, babe, what do you think about this? You're a moron, don't do that. Are you sure? Yeah, you're stupid. Okay, but like, oh, that person was gone. I hadn't had that person most of my life. They show up, then they rude enough to get cancer and die. And so then I'm like, there's this vacuum, and so for so long, I'd be like, Do I fold the sheets? I couldn't make decisions to save my life. And I was only with her for five years. I can't imagine somebody's been making life choices for nine, ten, twenty, whatever. I'm like, like, I'd probably wake up and be like, Do I put on pants? Um, that's that'll I'd be like, Well, Charl gets involved if you don't. It's all uh, yeah, exactly. Jim, man, so I mean I this was so good.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:28

And I would how many hours of material have we got all night, try the veal? Yeah, right, exactly.

Matt: 1:39:36

Um, I would you know what I'd love to do, and I do this with most of my oh, actually, I I have I do have three questions I want to ask that's I before I before I wrap up. So the first one is if you could hear something from both ladies, or one, or two part, however you want to share it, what would you like to hear?

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:02

So a little bit of a preface. Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40:04

And then I'll tell you. So in Orthodoxy, at the beginning of Lent, we we don't have Ash Wednesday, but we have a service called Forgiveness Vespers. And uh we begin Lent with this service, and halfway through all the altar hangings, the clergy vestments are changed to dark vestments. Um but at the end of Vespers, we then have what's called the rite of forgiveness. And it begins with the priest stands at the front, and the first person comes to the priest. And it's not the place to go into details, but they just simply say so-and-so, please forgive me a sinner. And the other replies is God forgives us all, and so-and-so, please forgive me a sinner. And they embrace, you know, oftentimes people will, you know, bow before the other person. Sometimes they'll get flat on the floor and just prostrate, lie face down on the floor in front of them. We don't have pews at our church, so we've got the floor space to be able to do prostrations and things like that. Um I remember Melinda and I had the chance to do that one time. It was when St. Anne's had just begun. And uh the priest who led it said, We don't know each other yet. We've only just started this congregation. You may feel silly asking someone's forgiveness, but trust me, if you're here for a year or two, there will be things to forgive.

SPEAKER_02: 1:41:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:40

Right, exactly. Um, this was one of Tracy's favorite things every year at the beginning of Lent. And we would both of us just end up hot messes, you know, to as the young people say these days. Um, but for all the going to each person and and asking for and giving forgiveness. And when it came to Tracy and me, because what happens, the first person goes to the priest, then they stand next to the priest, then this person goes. So what happens is you end up building a circle, and by the time you're done, everybody that is there has faced every other person that is there and has asked for and given forgiveness.

Matt: 1:42:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:23

And I remember so many years, you know, Tracy or I, whichever one of us, it was there first, would be there in the circle, and the next one come along. And you know, you don't have to say what it is, but I mean you can see it in each other's eyes and just say, you know, please, whatever way I've sinned against you, please forgive me. And to give that forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42:50

So I think I love you forgive me and I forgive you. For each of them is what I'd want to hear. Yeah. That's beautiful. Um second question. Second question. Let's see if we can go for a short answer instead of S. No, no, you're okay.

Matt: 1:43:22

That one was a lot that no, that's beautiful, man. Um I think it's you and I should I should have these written down, and I think I do, I just don't have them in front of me right now. If you could go back to I mean, right now, eight months or twenty-four years, pick pick, pick which time warp you want to go on. What's what's just a couple of things you would tell yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 1:43:47

Hmm. If I go back twenty-four years, I would say get counseling. Yeah, just definitely that. Um I'd say uh there are so many friends who really want to take care of you. And um I was more aware of it. I think being 54 this time instead of 29. Um Yeah, that that um and just life experience and where I am. Um if I could say to younger me, just be more mindful when someone asks what do you need. Um don't be afraid to say what you need. It takes it takes a moment, it takes some effort to stop, because you've got to stop and look at yourself. You can't just say, Well, thank you, and I'll call you, but to actually take stock. I mean, it it takes thought. But you know what? Love takes effort, feelings don't take any effort at all. You know, that affection, and I'm not saying affection by any means, but you know, it's it's it's fun to just hang out with somebody and no demands, but you know, love is more than that. Love actually is you're gonna invest in the other person, and their offering to help is an invitation to love, but you're actually stopping and thinking, what is a way that you could help me is a way to love them back. And it's it is putting that effort into it. So um, yeah, I would say that. And I would also definitely say, um, you know, not that not that I went totally nuts, except for buying the motorcycle. Um, but I would say, you know, come up with a budget and don't make any huge financial decisions unless you have to. But otherwise, kick that can down the road because for the first year or two, your head is not gonna be in the right place to make big decisions that you're gonna regret later on.

Matt: 1:45:49

That's a fair they there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of uh conversation around like you know, keeping massive decisions down to a minimum in the first year. Now, as we all know, if you can't afford the house, you're gonna go poor and broke and the kids aren't gonna eat and sell the house.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46:03

But I mean, I think you gotta do what you got to do. Right, but don't don't dump the entire life insurance check on putting in like a hot tub in the backyard or something like that.

Matt: 1:46:14

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46:15

Sack carpeting we're gonna go with the harvest gold, it'll complement the avocado green.

Matt: 1:46:22

The new refrigerator I just got. That tried to make it come back and it died pretty quick. Uh the avocado green did. I think you answered one and two because one of the one and two were like, what would you want to say to your wives, and what would you want to hear from them? And I think um, you know what maybe maybe uh maybe like a bonus question would be because we're we're our dads. And man, it really hit hard about breaking your kids' hearts.

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46:49

What's what's something that you wish for the kiddos? I want them to find peace and all this. And I want them to learn and grow in healthy ways closer to Christ.

SPEAKER_00: 1:47:26

I I you know, it's at times like this that they really are kind of pivotal in your life, and you're brought to that point of what do I really believe? And you realize so much that's just a drek that you thought was important before, and and you just um I know both times the first few months after Melinda died and the first few months after Tracy died, I found I was rather impatient with with just foolishness. It's like if something was was absolutely stupid or pointless or unnecessary or what have you, um, it's like I don't have time for this. Um and you know, I'd sometimes have to check myself because I'd almost want to get blunt about something. But um you know, it's out of something like this is when you start to realize what's important. And it hit me just so clearly after Tracy died. Um I remember waking up one night in the middle of the night and and just praying and felt like I can have Christ or I can have nothing. But there is no in between. And it's like, what what am I it it felt like I was at a decision point. It's like, what do I want? And and just crying out, okay, Christ, I want you. You're all I've got. Um and and um so yeah, for my kids, what I would want is for them to come out of this with a solid faith in the resurrection um and and in what we proclaim as Orthodox Christians. You know, they're teenagers, um they've gotta make their faith their own. Yeah, you you grow up, you have the Sunday school faith, um, and and you have, but at some point you've got to make your choices, you know, what what do I believe? Not just what does dad believe, but what do I believe? Yeah, yeah, and that's what I would want for them is that they come through this. Um one of the activities we did at the retreat, we we did some basic metal forging. And they pointed out afterwards, you know, this metal, it has been beaten, it's been twisted, it's been through the fire, but by the time you're done working it, it is stronger than it was when it went in. And that's what I would want for my kids. I I would want you know this is the suckiest thing that a kid could ever have to face is losing a parent. And I want them to come out stronger on the other side. I want them to be loving, caring, compassionate people. I want them not to waste their pain. To borrow Daniel's words.

Matt: 1:50:39

That's awesome. I mean, I think that's I mean, I I I think that's perfect. I think that's a beautiful place. Because actually, it's something I just wrote down too that like you don't want to waste this. It's it's it's an interesting nugget to carry around. I don't like I said, I don't know this Dan guy, and I really don't like him. He nailed it. I love it, I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:50:58

Well, you know, and and this is what you're doing. I mean, you're not wasting your pain. You're doing this podcast, and thank you, thank you so much for doing this.

Matt: 1:51:05

No, thanks. Thanks for sharing, man.

SPEAKER_00: 1:51:08

Since Tracy died, uh as I said earlier, when Melinda died, Google wasn't even a thing. And just what is now available, uh, what is out there, uh just the support and resource and guys to reach out to, be able to have video conferencing like this. You know, um uh it's just incredible. And and thank you for making this possible, and thank you for for inviting me to be on here.

Matt: 1:51:36

Of course, man. I really appreciate it. I I don't want to say I I have I was gonna say I love your story, but that's a that's that sounds bad. I know it's no one to another people die. Yeah, that's not I I get it, and I'm massive amount of respect and admiration for for what you've been through and and um how you like I said in my vlog, I'm just this guy, you know? Yes, just the guy. So, Jim man, I appreciate you so much. Are you well? Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_00: 1:52:02

Alright, wish you well. Take care. God bless you.