The Solo Dad Podcast
Your Wife is Gone. You’re Still Dad. Now What?
SoloDad is a podcast created for widowed fathers navigating the unthinkable—raising children while grieving the loss of a partner. Each episode dives into the raw, unfiltered reality of solo fatherhood, offering honest conversations, practical advice, and stories from dads who’ve been there. Whether you're searching for guidance, connection, or simply reassurance that you're not alone, SoloDad is here to help you rebuild your life, one day at a time. Together, we find strength, purpose, and hope in fatherhood.
The Solo Dad Podcast
Episode 3.1 John S. UK to Canada, Cancer during COVID Dad of 2
“I’m still on a kind of mixed-grief journey, I guess,” says John Smith, father of two, who lost his wife Kathy to colon cancer nearly two years ago. She was diagnosed just as the World Health Organization declared Covid-19 an official emergency. They were living with her parents at the time, and John discusses the challenges he faced with his in-laws in the immediate period following Kathy’s death. Their approach to grief was completely different from his—they almost pretended it wasn’t happening—and they ended up having separate services. It was a lesson in recognizing that each person is someone different to all the people in his or her life. And many of those same people, who promised very early on to do whatever they could to help John, tended to naturally fall away over time.
When it comes to meeting new people—people, as Mathew points out, who will never have known your wife—there is the awkwardness of having to tell them about her death for the first time. People’s reactions are strange but understandable. They almost go into denial, especially when you’re young and you have young children, almost as if by acknowledging that it happened to you they must acknowledge it could happen to anyone. Mathew says how important it is to have a weekly period of time to yourself no matter what you choose to do with it.
John discusses the unique challenges of getting back out on the dating scene, just as a 40-something and particularly as a widower. He praises the community Mathew created where there is a balance of feeling safe to share feelings without being too overwhelming. He refers to it as a brotherhood.
Quotes
- “It's amazing how these kids can kind of figure it out on their own, and almost sometimes hold our hand and help us build that bridge and almost show us that it'll be okay.” (6:45-6:57 | Mathew)
- “First and foremost, she was the best mother that my kids could have asked for. She was just amazing with the kids in every possible way. And again, that puts more pressure on. ‘How can I ever live up to that?" (42:17-42:51 | John)
Links
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/groups/solodadpodcast/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/id1474245040
Colon Cancer Awareness info
https://fightcolorectalcancer.org/
Welcome to season three of the Solo Dad podcast. This conversation was recorded in the end of March. Due to solo dadness, it took a minute to get out, but I did not want to stress, miss the chance to stress the fact that Colorectal Awareness Month is the month of March. This conversation, unfortunately, is connected through colon cancer. My guest lost his wife to colon cancer. I lost my wife to colon cancer. Colorectal cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death among men and women combined in the United States. And of all the cancers, colorectal cancer will take the most lives of people under the age of 50. So if you are not speaking to your doctor about this now, you need to. The best test is the one that gets done. 45 is the new 50 for colonoscopies, regardless of your family history. So let's get to the conversation, but look for links and information in the show notes about how, when, and where to address colorectal cancer. Let's get to the conversation. And I want to just take a quick moment and say how humble and grateful I am for all the guys that take their time to share one of, if not one of, the most difficult journeys they're on. And so today I have the unfortunate brother in colon cancer, John. And you and I have been connected now for two years, I think, ish, right? About.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. Yeah. Um, you know, in terms of uh you know, we're sharing a loss like yourself, but um I'm sort of uh you know getting on with the kids and uh with my life.
Matt:And you so you uh how old are the kids now?
SPEAKER_02:They are so uh Teddy is five and Charlotte's seven.
Matt:And your wife Kathy was how old when she passed?
SPEAKER_02:She was 35.
Matt:And you are what, just two years, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's two years coming up in a month.
Matt:And we're doing this um right at the end of colon cancer awareness month, which is March, and both you and I unfortunately have been intimately aware of colon cancer. Uh at the end of the podcast, I will bring up more colon cancer stuff as a reminder for folks. But tell me, you know, let's let's go with where you are now. Let's go, you're two years out. I know you made a move, I did as well, um, post-loss. So tell me where you're at, how the kids are doing, how you're doing, and and then we'll kind of backtrack into to the story of of Kathy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, right. It's hard to know where to start really. But um, yeah, I mean, ultimately, uh, so Kathy passed two years ago. It was during lockdown.
Matt:Oh man, that's a whole nother part that we can get into, right? Jeeves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. And she was diagnosed a year and a bit before then, which was on the day that the World Health Organization made COVID a pandemic officially. So we kind of had like her diagnosis, she was rushed in immediately for surgery that night, and then she began chemo, you know, a month or two later, once she was recovered from the surgery. So yeah, it was kind of a obviously gigantic shift in our family life all at once. And um the kids were three and five at the time. Um actually, sorry, the kids were two and four at the time. I'm thinking of when she passed. And yeah, just right from the off, I was kind of like full-time with the kids, you know, work wasn't happening, um, my wife was recovering from surgery. But I guess, yeah, uh so we we bonded like anything in that period. We uh we just did stuff outdoors, you know. I was there caring for my wife. We were optimistic about her sort of chances, but that slowly diminished over time. But um, I guess the point I'm trying to make, yeah, I sort of built this amazing relationship with my kids. We were living in the circumstances where we were kind of living in the basement of my in-laws' place, and that was kind of put a strain on things, but um ultimately it was a nice place, it was nice that my wife was there with her parents, and uh that was good. But yeah, we just had this year together where um Caffy's condition declined. Um you know, the kids seemed to deal with it like pretty amazingly overall. Uh I think thanks to the fact that I was there with them the whole time. So um past yeah, once Kathy passed, I guess we've just built this life together. We moved house. We kind of uh had my parents with us for a bit helping out. I guess I I returned to work and um yeah, I guess life just got crazy as a solo dad. That moment parents were there helping, and they obviously they had to leave, and it was just me and the kids working full time, and then yeah, the severe pressure all you know really started to hit, and uh, you know, it's it's a tough gig that we got. But been doing it for a year and a half now, and uh have to sort of say, you know, there are difficult weeks for sure, but I I kind of feel like I'm yeah, most most of the time I'm sort of on top of it, and uh, you know, life's working out. I'm still on a kind of mixed grief journey, I guess. Still, you know, kind of where I'm at all the time, but uh but it's awesome to be part of a group like the one you've created where we kind of share experiences and that message of you're not alone, you know. There's others like you out there doing the same things, we've all got our own struggles.
Matt:It's it's a hard life, but you know, we'll I feel less than lucky to have my kids and uh isn't that an i isn't that an interesting like like I know that my relationship with my little would be with Blair, the five-year-old, would be different if her mom was here, right? And you you you talk about like how the kids handled it. Like I look at my daughter and I'm like, you know, and yours was your were both fairly young, right? And so we're kind of left with this like, how do I how do how do I move forward and build a bridge forward to a new life and living, but also how do I help these kids build one? And you mentioned this in in kind of the pre-notes, like it's um excuse me, it's amazing how these kids can kind of figure it out on their own and almost sometimes like hold our hand and like help us build that bridge, like almost show us that it'll be okay. Um, talk about like their resilience well, actually go back, do this real quick, go back to like you said like 18 months, right? What were some of the things that you found like the most foggiest and most difficult in the early months of loss? Because actually, in a Zoom call last night, we're talking to a guy who's new and I was just nodding the whole time. So I want to kind of hear if you can go back and remember what that was like versus where you are today, maybe like what was the first few. And I know you had your parents helping, and I, you know, we get a support structure, but that that goes away. It's like a scaffolding, right? They're like they prop you up and they're like, bye, and you're like, oh gosh. Um, so kind of walk me through that a little bit and then talk about maybe compare that to where you are now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's funny. I mean, um, last time in you properly spoke and you were amazing. Uh my wife was yeah, going through the sort of final stages of her journey and um sort of prepped me for it. You said, you know, you'll have people around you that will all be like, you know, let's know what we can do to help. But but you said, but that will go away really quickly. And like true, yeah, it couldn't be more accurate, you know. It just suddenly you hear from loads of people and then suddenly silence. And suddenly you I I definitely had a feeling of uh yeah, it's just awkward for people, right? And you feel awkward about it when you shouldn't be, you know. I remember feeling guilty for telling people that my wife had passed and seeing their reaction, and I've had a couple of people have just burst into tears, right? You know, when they've asked me. And then I'm like I I'm the one feeling guilty. Oh, should I not have told you that my wife should that be a dark secret that I keep to myself? So yeah, that it's kind of it's a strange journey knowing what's you know, how you sort of deal with things and tell people. So I guess that aspect of things has always been a bit tough for me, and I think it's got easier over time. But the other was definitely the sort of doing it all by yourself, you know, it's keeping the house in order. Like I'm exhausted at the end of every night and you know, I'm working my house like we all are, right? And trying to keep things in order and everything's a bit crazy and a mess. But you know, but doing it at the same time. And I guess I've started to shift my mindset more recently. I've started to actually see that in an odd way, it sort of keeps me active and like the just I just feel I just love the fact that I've developed this amazingly close relationship with my kids, even though it doesn't seem like it at times, you know, they they're not always, you know, there are times when it's difficult for people.
Matt:They are seven and five, yes. They they they can be unappreciative at times. I know exactly what you're you're you're going for. What like this is something I struggle, I still struggle with, which is um, you know, I look around at the end of the day, and all I see is all the things that I haven't done, right? Although my kid is fed and bathed and happy and safe and lovey and everything's good, but like, you know, the kitchen's not picked up from dinner. Um, and we were again, we were referencing this earlier where it's like you like you you just said, you're just so exhausted. And I think what guys need, or anybody that's going through this should remember it's like whether you acknowledge it or not, you are now half the person you are. You used to have. You used to have a partner, whether it was a great relationship or bad relationship, there's still somebody to do something, like whatever it was in your relationship. And the other day, in a widow group, this was and I wish I would have screenshot, maybe I go find this post. All these ladies started to talk about they had no idea their husband did XYZ ABC. All the like all these, like keep the Lamo running, had had the right light bulbs for the what all these things. And they're like, he just did all this stuff. And I think when us guys talk about being tired and and not having things done or complete, it's not like an ego thing. I think it's that thing of like, oh, I had someone that we probably recognize, but that's part of a partnership. Like you take this, I take that. We both deal with our stuff, we come together, and one plus one equals three. We do better with, right? And when that goes away, I think we we dis I think in general, in grief, we discredit how much we're actually doing, right? And and it sucks because then it sucks a bit of that joy of accomplishment away because it's more around the accomplishment of what we're doing for our kiddos, not necessarily as I look over my shoulder, the pile of stuff that I have in my office that I haven't dealt with, which my wife would kill me if this file was there. But so when you and it sounds like you're shifting, are you finding yourself having and it joy is a weird thing because it almost some people would think, well, you're not sad about losing your wife anymore. And you and I both know that is not true. When you're finding that, like, is that what you're finding? Is you're like, oh, things are okay, and here's my kiddos, and we're having a a a a memory-making time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. Trying to trying to look on, you know, not forcing it, but trying to look on the bright side of things in terms of you know, just being grateful for the fact that, yeah, they are fed, we're fed, you know, we've got a place to live. You know, all these I've got a job, all all these things that kind of you know yeah. It it's shit for us all. No, you're fine.
Matt:There we we leave the expresses thing on, you absolutely can swear.
SPEAKER_02:But here we are, and we're doing it, and yeah, you know, we are trying to find joys. Well, I'm trying to sort of do adventures with my kids and keep them busy. I don't know why that seems to be an obsession for me. Like, must keep the kids busy. And that seems to have taken over my life kind of thing, which is fine.
Matt:I guess that's just being a but you're right at that phase where like I I think you should give yourself I I'd change your your mindset on that, that you're not keeping them busy. This is the age where they start to get really busy, John. Like, it's just if your wife was alive, they you would probably be the same busy that you'd be signing up for the things. And I don't want you to think that like maybe you're doing it out of motive because I know sometimes as adults we get busy subconsciously to be busy sake, because we don't want to slow down and write, think about the things that are or aren't, right? Um, but you're right at that phase where like I'm I'm looking at my daughter and she's in a couple of things, and someone else is like, When are you putting her in a sport thing? I'm like, you don't have to do that until they're oh wait, she is that age. She should all these kids have been playing T-ball last summer and we didn't. And I'm like, uh oh. So I would actually say, unless you really truly feel you are being busy for them to distract them from a mom being missing, you're just right at that phase where they're just gonna be getting busy, which is awesome because you're into it and you're doing it, right? And I'm sure are they like are there is like are they guiding you through some activities that they want to do? Like, I just ask my daughter sometimes, I'm like, what do you want to do? And she still really wants to take karate. And I'm like, if she learns karate, uh, she's gonna kick my butt. Like, I don't like I have no defense. So is that the type of busy you're looking at? Like their schedules and just doing things, yeah, definitely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, lots of activities that they do. And um, actually, I mean, there's like real full circle kind of stuff going on. So my what my daughter's actually uh getting taught flu by the same teacher that taught my wife flu.
Matt:Get out.
SPEAKER_02:So that seems like there's some things we're doing that is directly from my wife, and then she's doing ballet, and it turns out I only found this the other day because found us out because I bumped into her old ballet teacher that my daughter used to have, but she knows someone else. This ballet teacher used to do ballet lessons with my wife when when they were both girls. My wife was like, Whoa, like this is nice that we can like honour her legacy by porting it upon my my daughter happens to like doing them. But yeah, so um, and then like my boy, he's a bit more, I don't know, he's more of a boy, I guess. I I signed him up for soccer and I was taking him and he was just like complaining, going, Oh, I don't know, I don't know. And so I stopped him from doing that. And uh yeah, I don't know what's uh I guess just yeah, trying to keep him busy, trying to keep myself busy.
Matt:What do you do to keep yourself busy? Like what are you doing when you have the time, which I know is rare, we as we know.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:But uh to try and wind down, I know. I somehow I find a way to try and exercise every now and then. I might you know connect with a friend every now and then, but I don't have that much time for myself, it feels like.
Matt:Yeah, and I think you're coming into the phase too that I would, and I actually told someone this the other night where I if I could give some some unsolicited advice, like year two plus out, I would find that babysitter that you just put on a retainer that shows up like every Thursday night, whether you have plans or not. So whether that's you know, a beer with the guys, you watch a soccer match, you sit in a chair and you just read, you watch a show you wouldn't watch with the kids, they just show up every Thursday night. Maybe they're for four hours, maybe they're for two. You pay them the same amount of money, you're like, you're just a standing appointment. Because then you can kind of plan things. Um, and that's kind of how I was using, and I always find these great babysitters, but then they would like go off to college and I'm like, or get a real job, like, oh man. But um, because eventually, if we're not, and I'm glad to hear you're you're moving around it from time to time too. It's that, and I understand I I get we can get into this a little more, but like it's that that's the plain air mask mentality. If we don't put our air mask on first and we don't do a little bit of something for ourselves, we're just not gonna be what we can be for our family and our friends and our kids, right? And our kiddos. And so it took me a while because when you're all in with your kids, it's also really it's a lot of love, which we I think we need and I think is good. But there comes a point when it's like, and I'm not saying like, you know, right, we abandon our kids, but like it's and there's a there's always gonna be a guilt thing. I'm gonna prep you, no matter how good your intention is, even if it's something as simple as, you know, I'm going to a karaoke slash trivia night at the pub down the road with my four buddies and we're gonna hang out and it's once a week, it's fine. You're gonna feel guilt for not being around your kids. It's just gonna be a thing. And it sucks, but I try to remind myself, I'm like, but my wife and I would talk about doing things together without our kids. I wouldn't feel guilty if I was hanging out with her. So I try to, it's still gonna be there, but like I because we have to, because if we're not, if we're not at least scaffolding ourselves back up and supporting ourselves, it it comes out in ways, right? I've I've talked in before about my like kind of outburst at inanimate objects if I don't get enough sleep. And and I've I kind of figured out if I'm not getting good sleep, and we're good, it's we're not talking eight hours, we're talking more than four, according to Fitbit. Um, and if I'm not moving my body, it doesn't have to be intense workout. If I'm just not doing whether it's mowing the lawn or going for the walk or going to the gym or whatever it is for me, it comes out. And so I've noticed on my and my daughter now understands, I'm like, I'm gonna go get on the treadmill because we have snow. Well, you have snow too where you're at. And I'm we're gonna walk, you watch a show on TV because I gotta move my body because otherwise it starts to my my tension goes up.
SPEAKER_02:So again, it's funny, like I have found like I said, I found this appreciation for the fact that housework is keeping me busy. But um, yeah, one thing uh and I find that so when I'm doing like the the chores, you know, the washing up, I put on a podcast while I'm listening while I'm doing it. And um so I mentioned. Yeah, mention please bring those up.
Matt:I mean, you don't have to shamelessly plug this when you're already on it, but like the other ones, what and I hadn't heard of either of these ones, so please share.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, there was some that I listened to just for comedy, right? That keep me going mentally for sure, but a couple of them have been sort of almost like I don't like the the name for this category, but almost like self-help. And there's this one, uh this doctor Peter Tia. He has this master drive and he he just talks about like tons of different things. But he's he's had a few recently where uh he's been talking with someone about trauma. There's another one about there's just anyway, lots of sort of mental health sort of type discussions, but like there've been really good reminders, like you know, you need to take care of yourself, you need exercise, you need sleep, and just this constant evaluator and okay, I've got to make these little changes to help make sure I'm getting to bed so I'm getting you know six hours if I right.
SPEAKER_00:That's why I mean when I say good sleep, I'm like it's just more than four, which is horrible.
SPEAKER_02:And then yeah, making sure I move about and I've kind of started going for a walk on a lunch break with a colleague, for example. It's just yeah, and again we can just talk and yeah, I don't know. It's remind it stuff that has reminded me to take yeah, better care of myself.
Matt:Well, and especially like not that we're that old, but like I also look at my kiddo and I go, I just don't want to be the dad that when she's like super active, like seven, eight, and then into her teens, that can't even like play, you know, play catch, hit the soccer ball, whatever, spot her on her gymnastics, whatever she decides to do. Like, I don't want to be that dad that can't physically participate because I didn't take care of myself ten years ago. And so That's been another motivator. It's not about necessarily the way I look or whatever. It's been like, I want to be able to participate in my kids' life for as long as I can because eventually I have a 19-year-old. They just they still love you. They just don't want you around as much. So, what about so the other one? And I just looked at him and I'll read him Peter, it's Peter Ataya or something like that. He actually, I just, and you're right, he just recently started talking about grief and trauma like late last year. So that's really timely. And then um the happiness lab. Would tell me more about that one.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that one's just uh yeah, there's just a few yeah episodes.
SPEAKER_02:It's about um the science of you know happiness, psychology, I guess. But it's always these different conversations with different experts about different theories and stuff, and some of them I look at the kind of title and I think, no, that's not for me. And then there are others that are like, okay, this could be interesting. Or yeah, like grief, for example, and uh a listen, and you kind of again it's uh you know this whole solo dad thing. You the trouble with grief is it's often referring to people losing not necessarily their partner while they have young kids, right? Or kids in general, you know. And it's I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, there's a constant battle of like you know, it's hard what we're going through, and I do miss my wife a lot. And um, but yet you need to get on with life and find joys where we can.
Matt:And yeah, I'm looking at some of these titles, these are some really good ones. It's like, I mean, just on the solo dad thing, like listening, I've like I'm I'm so glad you brought this up. One is like letting your children try and fail. Like, she has some really, really uh getting rid of that. Um, like this would be what was the other one? It was something about like your inner voice of like of your inner self-nagging self-criticism, right? Like we don't the laundry's not full of them or whatever. Like, I love that these may not be like I'm I'm sure she has some on grief, but they're not like grief specific. But it's more about when you're ready to receive that information on how you can maybe start changing the lens and what you're looking through life. I think the other thing the guys don't do a very good job of in our situation is like giving ourselves enough credit. Like, I I I have someone that weekly reminds me, they're like, You have no idea how good of a job you're doing. And I'm like, then why do I feel like an absolute failure? And they're like, because you shouldn't. And I'm like, but I do. And they're like, you gotta get over that. And it takes some time because I feel also like admitting like it's okay to be happy means it's okay the laundry's not folded, but those two things don't have to be true. You can still go fold the laundry later and be happy that the fact that your kid's having a good day and you had a good day, right? I think that's a really important thing.
SPEAKER_02:And actually, like the person that reminds me of more than anything that I'm doing, uh sort of what I can, you know, what feels like a good job is my daughter. And she always says how much she loves me and just shows appreciation. And yeah, I'm so so lucky to have that actually.
Matt:I love you've seen that, you've seen that picture on social media where it's like it's something like they don't have any idea how much like it's like a dad coming home from work and the kid hugs him, like how much that saves us, right? And it's just it's it's there's something there where we just like I'm like the when like at bedtime when the kiddo like I forget something on our bedtime routine, she's like, Dad, you have to say the thing. And I'm like, Oh wow, you're really you're all in on this, and and you do, even though 10 minutes ago you just told me you were never gonna talk to me again because I wouldn't let you have chocolate for dinner, um, right? Like it's amazing. And and and I I like the fact that you're attuned to that and you're present in it because I think sometimes, again, being a solo parent, we get so busy with the minutiae of like taking care of the day-to-day, we kind of might miss that. And um, that's really awesome.
SPEAKER_02:But like it's you know, they're still kids, they uh they like to challenge us, they like to push our buttons.
Matt:It's not all sort of no, it's not all it's not all puppy dogs and rainbows for sure. That's that is for sure. I can't remember. We I know or when because I know last time you and I spoke in person, there was some things about books and stuff. Did you find any any books helpful or anything that you would be like, well, that was kind of good for me, or you're like, nah, that wasn't my thing, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_02:I struggle to find time to read.
Matt:Fair point. I when I say read, I usually use audiobooks.
SPEAKER_02:I got that book, the group. Oh yeah. Um I'm unfortunately just sat by my bedside table unopened. Like I've got a pile of about three or four, and I'm like trying to get through them, and it's just it's not happening. So I find actually audiobooks are sort of my way forward. So I probably just need to rebuy that one as an audiobook. So again, for that whole thing that I'm like, right, I can do something productive, but yeah, I can yeah, do some that's what I I mean.
Matt:I literally listen to audiobooks when I when I'm o the lawn. And there's a couple that I've listened to where like they're so deep in thought with stuff, like one was like the grieving brain. I have to stop because I'm like, I'm gonna trip. Like, this is so hard for me to like m walk and listen to this person talk about this deep stuff. The group is not that sort of book. You can definitely like ride your bike or be cleaning, and you can still get what they're what they're trying to share with you. Hey there, friends and family, followers both near and far, and our tribe of allies in the solo dad community. Wanted to break away from the conversation for just a few minutes to remind you that the Solo Dad is wherever you may be roaming online. We are on Instagram and TikTok with the handle Solo Dad. If you or someone you know would like to join a supportive community and you are a widower, we have a Facebook group. The name of the Facebook group is Solo Dad, a group for grieving widowers who are trying to parent. If you want to reach out to us directly, we can be reached at SoloDadPodcast at gmail.com. If you found any of these conversations interesting, insightful, maybe entertaining, we would love a mention on social media or take a moment and review us on iTunes. I want to take a moment to also remind you of this is not a one-person show. We have a friend, a supporter, and an ally at hivecast.fm. Dax listened to the show, likes what we're doing for solo dads, and reached out. He and his team are now doing my show notes. They're doing the audio files for the pre-launch. They're also the ones that are doing those great graphics that you're now seeing. They have taken so many things off of my to-do list. It is now allowing me to focus on more content, more interviews in the solo dad community. If you are doing a podcast or thinking of doing a podcast, schedule your free one-on-one call with Dax and his team. Let them know that the Solo Dad sent you and that we think they're fantastic. They have several different options and several other helpful things they can do for you. Everything from helping with YouTube channel to marketing to editing. That is hivecast.fm for your podcast support and needs. Lastly, I want to make sure I give my humble thanks and gratitude for all of the support and all of you that have listened. We still hope you find these conversations insightful, useful. Maybe you'll laugh, maybe you'll cry. Thank you for being there with us. Thank you to all the dads that have volunteered their time to be on these shows and share what is one of the most difficult journeys they'll ever be on. As always, thank you for listening, and let's get back to the conversation. Talk about a little bit of you you mentioned in the in the notes, like maybe some you've talked about the good things, the relationship with the kiddo, you've talked about realizing like how resilient they are. Also, credit to you. Also, you've recognized how resilient you can be. Because I know early on we both I I know how I was feeling. I'm like, well, this is all gonna end in a disaster. Like you might, you know, someone's gonna take my kid away. This is gonna be bad. Like, there's just no way. Um, so I think we're a little more resilient than we gave ourselves credit for. Um tell me about like, I know, I know, due to the situation you were like with the in-laws, um, you mentioned that like that relationship's kind of been strained. Do you wanna do you wanna talk about that at all? Or okay, yeah, you want to share that? Yeah. Or in general, maybe this is the question. So I was trying to get there, which is how you mention you briefly mentioned how some of your relationships changed post-laws. So I think that's one that a lot of guys are kind of surprised by.
SPEAKER_02:Obviously, like famously, you know, in-laws can be challenging for all families. And usually you're not sort of you don't need to be in each other's face. Like you can sort of, you know, coexist and there's no, you know, even if you don't see eye to eye, but we were in a situation where we were having a shared, you know. Like the gr I think you said this or it was someone else aware of, but the grievance starts while your partner's alive, right?
Matt:If if it's Yeah, pre-grief, especially when you have a terminal diagnosis, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So we were going for all of this, and yet they had their w way of dealing with it, and I had my way. And these two ways didn't align at all. And it was definitely a challenge for me that you know they didn't want to talk about it whatsoever, or kind of uh I don't know. We I felt like I was isolated even though we're under the same roof. And so yeah, there was definitely like a sort of strained relationship there, and um ultimately I mean, because it was a small space, I knew I knew me and the kids needed to move out anyway at some point, but that has healed the sort of um that strained relationship we have. It did, it just needed a bit of time, bit of separation, and now they're actually there for us kind of thing. There was a good okay I need you to have the kids please. And they were like, Oh, only for this hour at this time. And I'm like, well that doesn't work with my schedule, and there was no good reason why. It was like, yeah, it's and it was and I've certainly I think I've it's it's in a bet situation. I know there are definitely dads on our group that have had much worse situations where in-laws have just been you know not involved and which is just you know, yeah, it's it's hard for us to understand, isn't it, how people are different and why they wouldn't yeah, yeah. But um in my case, luckily, uh things got fixed there.
Matt:And um well, that space, probably you getting out of each other's space, giving everybody some air and space to like grieve in their own way, because one of the things that comes up too is um people forget that like one person died, but that person was many different people than many different people, right? So like that was their daughter, not their wife, not their mother of their children, it was their daughter, and to you it was someone different to her co-workers, it was someone different to her friends, it was someone different. I don't know if your did your wife have siblings, or she had only children.
SPEAKER_02:I had a sibling as well, and yeah, there's a strange relationship, right?
Matt:Yeah, and so like, but the sibling lost a sibling, not again, not a wife, not a partner. And so it's very different, and so the grief is a little nuancedly different. And so sometimes, like, even though you're grieving from the same time that it happened, it's different because who they were to them was different, right? And so um I have found that like somewhere along the line, you kind of go, yes, we're both we the group that have lost the person, we're all grieving the loss, but I'm on a slightly different, like we're on the same road, but we're on a different path. I don't know the right analogy or something like that, but we're on we're all headed to the same destination, we're taking different roads. That sounds a little better, right? Because like theirs might be bumpy while mine's smooth. I might be going downhill while they're going uphill, but we're headed the same direction, but it's it's different. And so um, I think getting separation probably helped you guys kind of have your own grief because they they may look at you and like, well, how's he having a good day when we're having a bad day, right? If you're in each other's space all the time, you're like, well, it's a good day because I'm enjoying my kids. Like, no, it's supposed to be a bad day because we're remembering this was her first ballet performance or whatever, and you're like, but I that's not my you just remind me.
SPEAKER_02:There was a whole thing around um what to do about her her funeral as well. Actually, we didn't see eye to eye on that, and that was a very sort of difficult situation where I kind of I did my one and they did theirs. So they didn't come to mind, and it was a that was a weird thing. It was a last minute oh we don't feel it's right to come to this this yeah, memorial. It really is a really weird sort of thing to sort of be doing it they weren't there, but you know, yeah, I've moved forward.
Matt:Grief makes people do weird things for sure. Like I I think you could put it in that.
SPEAKER_02:What um that's interesting is like a good friend of mine met them uh a few months ago and he hadn't seen them since our wedding, right? Since my wife and I got married, and he they were nice and everything, and he pointed out to me afterwards he was like, sometimes you gotta remember that like they made your wife, you know, she's who she is because she was raised by them. And like, yeah, it was nice to get that reminder. It's like, ah, it's so true, I know that really. And um, yeah, I don't.
Matt:It's uh what about like your the your wives' friends or your friends in common? Have those relationships changed, supported, been different? Like just kind of if you want to touch on that?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, uh I suppose that one's not a straightforward one. I suppose again, I felt like yeah, when she passed, there was some load of activity of like wanting to be in touch and then suddenly just all gone it it kind of felt like and I don't know, I guess that's just the way it goes. And even with like extended family members, my wife they were sort of reaching out and we were sort of seeing seeing each other and stuff, and then suddenly they're just sort of yeah. I guess everyone just gets on with their life, right?
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, I mean it's it's an oversimplification, but it is true.
SPEAKER_02:I mean it is well, exactly. I mean, as in they don't yeah, actively think, oh, I should check see what's going on.
Matt:I don't know, how far did you move? Are you still in the same community?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I mean it was it's a complicated one anyway, because um you can probably tell from my accent, right? That so I I grew up in the UK and uh I've only been in North America or Canada specifically, is where we are four years now. Become a sixth this time next week, actually. And so yeah, I met my wife in England. We lived there for eight years, maybe a bit under that. Yeah, eight years before we moved over to her hometown, Canada. And so we moved in with her parents first as a sort of like, oh, we'll just be here until we try and get away from it.
SPEAKER_03:Yep, yep, yep.
SPEAKER_02:Everything happened, right? And then it was double whammy of COVID and her diagnosis. And yeah, so I guess I've kind of been building a new community. So like I work with people I know, friends of friends. Um so yeah, I guess a bit different there.
Matt:But um It's similar, actually you're similar to my has it hit you yet? And I don't wanna I don't I don't wanna be mean. Has it hit you yet that like the people you interface with on a daily basis never knew your wife?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, yeah, definitely.
Matt:I mean I that just hit me a couple of months ago. I'm like the the director at my daughter's school has beyond like me sharing, never met my wife. And I'm like, how's this possible? And I'm like, oh, it's gonna be like this for the rest of my life.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I know, and and that brings up one thing that I do always struggle with. I think I'm gonna have to just accept that it's there's never gonna be a solution for this, but it's still that whole you meet someone or you you deal with someone. When does it come up that so where you know every now and then it'll be like even recently, I think I mentioned earlier, but um there was someone I work with and get on really well with her, and she sort of was like, uh, so when you take your uh daughter to ballet or whatever, is is your wife looking after your son? And at that point, I'm like, okay, so you don't yeah, and because you you don't know what people know as well, do you?
Matt:It's like No, you don't. Well, and sometimes you have to read the room. Like early on, I think I I'm just gonna pick a random, I'll go first 18 months, it's just shock and awe. You just tell everybody you don't care. You're just saying dead wife, dead wife all the time. And then and then and then you kind of start to space out, and then you realize that like because of our age, some people won't even register that like you're saying late wife or my deceased wife because it doesn't fit our demographic, right? And they're like, that can't be the right, and so sometimes they won't even hear it. And then sometimes you have to kind of read the room and go, like, is this really the time? Right? Like, I was on vacation and the person at the hotel was very nice, and they kept mentioning my wife, and I just was like, I'm never gonna see this person again. Like, I don't need to get into it with them. Like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, she watching the kids. And my mom actually, one time I was someplace and heard me just flat out lie to the person.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I've done that myself. I mean, it's all basically the the bottom line is there's it's awkward however you do it, right? I've I've been in situations where I felt like, okay, I did I give that up too too soon, too easily. Was that making that interaction fully awkward from that moment?
Matt:And then other times where you don't say it, but then it comes a point where it needs to come up, it's like, is it gonna say you would have been playing like had you said, like, oh yeah, my wife watches her, and then like the next conversation you're gonna be like, crap, I've said my wife and I'm gonna tell her my wife's dead. Like, you kind of have to, yeah. It's I don't think that I think it's always awkward. I think what becomes easier is like the ease of which of how to deliver the news. Like early on, it's really, really complicated, but I think it becomes easy, it's no less awkward, but it you just kind of go like, I can't I know, you know, like obviously the school director needs to know, but does the guy who I'm you know chit-chatting with on the flight need to know? Probably not, unless it unless it gets pressed, or you're like, Well, I guess I gotta tell you now. Um, it was actually it's interesting. The guys that what I did was um I had some work done here at the house, and they were gonna be here for like a month coming and going. And I finally was like, I told the project manager guy, I said, I need you to tell your crew that uh my wife's dead. Like, I just need you they need to know um that like what they're walking into in case something weird happens or I get off by like them moving something or whatever. And he was totally understandable, but I was like, normally I wouldn't tell someone like an electrician coming to the house to like put in a new fixture. I wouldn't tell them like, no, just you're here once. I'm not gonna, so yeah, that's a that's a good point you bring up. The awkwardness of of who to tell what and when.
SPEAKER_02:And their reaction is always like, yeah, you know, it's just so different for everybody. Obviously, some people are like openly better not, you know, that's a bit awkward, or it's probably our age as well, right?
Matt:And even it's because it's it's unset, and then especially if the kids are super young, it's not that like it necessarily gets easier if the kids were 20 or something, but like of our age, and if people have any empathy in them all, they look at the kid and they go, Oh, and it's it for me when I backtrack and people like I've had to explain it because I had someone you could tell when I said it, they couldn't figure it out. Like Blair was 14 months, right? Or she was 13 months when she mom died. So we'll go, she was like, not even a year and a half. And you could see the person going, like, but you have a baby. And I'm like, Yeah, they they can be born in the mom, and like they could not fathom how this happened. They were like, wait, what? And that was like, Yeah, she was 13 months when her mom, and they just they can't figure that out.
SPEAKER_02:I think there was also a bit of denial for some people that it's like, oh, I don't want to know about that because that can't happen to my family, or like, you know, that doesn't happen. I don't know. It's a slight kind of, oh, I don't want to know about that because that's a thing that I don't even want to contemplate ever happening, which is understandable, and I'm sure it's one of those things it's almost like, was that a dream? Was that a is that a movie? You know, it's like that what happened, that's something that happens in a movie, not in real life, you know. That even though I remember that first. First feeling of like, yeah, the diagnosis was there, it was unsure, it was that period, it was like the weirdest, most surreal thing, and then for it to progress, and you start thinking, okay, this is how things are gonna pan out, and then they don't pan out, and that yeah, it's just it's sometimes it's all sort of surreal, right?
Matt:But um I still I one of the things I tell people is I'm like, there are times I definitely go like like what is it? It's consciously I know this is real, but somewhere in my subconscious, like, is this this didn't really happen. Is this really is this really is this our normal? Is this my normal now? And I'm like, yeah, I guess it is. Like it's weird. It's weird. It's definitely which I feel was the opposite. When my wife was alive and things were going great, was this can't be it can't be this good, right? Like this the goodness is a dream, and now I'm on the other side where the badness must be. It's very intriguing. I guess we just want things to be normal.
SPEAKER_02:You're right. Even like, yeah, it's just kind of like, oh, you know, I've met this, met the love of my life, we've got married, we're having kids. It's all like on this trajectory, and it's again it, yeah, you're it's fair to say that as well.
Matt:That you know, I I mean, I think the same thing where I'm like that there's the little period my wife and I were together, I was like, that that was and I've actually I've asked people at varying points, like I'm not misremembering, right? Like it was good, like your friends or family, or I'm like, we like I'm not like just bad memory, like we didn't argue, right? Like it was good, and they're like, No, it was it was good, man. It was it was really good. I'm like, okay, just check it. Um, so we'll we'll kind of back into this. So tell me tell me about meeting Kathy, and I know you were overseas, and then my uh my kids are knocking on the door.
SPEAKER_04:Ah, there we go. Sorry, dude.
Matt:Oh no, you're good, man. So and that'll probably I'll edit a little bit, but that's a solo dad moment. You gotta like, hey, you gotta do your thing real quick. So, real quick, tell me tell me a little bit about Kathy, and then I've got uh just two more questions for you.
SPEAKER_02:Oh about Kathy, as in like where do I start?
Matt:Whatever you want to share with us.
SPEAKER_02:Just and I'm sure many of us feel like this, but I really feel like a best mother, uh yeah, like first and foremost, best mother that my kids could. Yeah. She was just amazing with the kids in every possible way. And again, that puts more pressure, right? On how can I ever live up to that? How can I ever be a replacement? Not a replacement, but how can I yeah, be that person for my kids, you know, be the be the dad, but also be that because essentially you must feel like this as well. Our role is mum and dad, right? In one person, which is yeah, it's it's a tough one, right?
Matt:One of the examples I use of that is I'll be like rubbing my kids back, and then I I literally consciously think, dial it back about 30%, like less don't be heavy-handed, like softer. And I shared this with another solo dad. He goes, Are you serious? I said, Yeah, because her mom wouldn't rub her back like a guy will rub her back. And he's like, Wow. And I was like, Well, yeah, like I soften it up because I'm trying to be less dad, more mom. I don't yeah, and it's both. How amazing that she was such a good mom that you are aspiring to do what's the impossible, but uh try to achieve a level of awesome dude mom is-ish, whatever word we put in there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely, man. And now I feel like like, yeah, I shouldn't just talk about her as a mum as well, because of course she was so much more to me than than that before uh yeah, before kids. But um just a gentle, calm, kind person, someone that kind of showed me and helped put me on the straight and narrow. I was definitely a bit more of a reckless person, you know, drank too much overall, and and and things where she like helped me really rein it in, right? And grow up, she basically showed me how to grow up. I met her when I just turned 30, and um, yeah, like she she sorted me out.
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah.
Matt:How how did you guys meet?
SPEAKER_02:Uh so she was she was new to England, she was living with sharing house with someone that I worked with, and he basically matchmade us. Apart from I didn't know we were being matchmade. I just in a pub uh one night, and we just clicked straight away. And I was like, Oh, do you want to go and you know? I actually offered to take her out for breakfast or let's meet for brunch tomorrow. And um yeah, and then the rest was history. And it was only like two months later that it was like, Oh, you know, I told her all about you and she went that night fully expectant to sort of meet you, and and you were the one that asked her out.
Matt:Wow, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:Set up that yeah, was like a natural connection, I guess. So um yeah, and we just had yeah, really cool few years exploring, you know, going on trips and yeah, just what was she what was she in the UK for?
Matt:Was she there for work or studying or?
SPEAKER_02:No, she was just there on a um you can get a visa as a young thirty just to go and live and work for two years, just as a kind of thing, a Commonwealth thing with Canada. And um, yeah, so she just she was just fed up with her hometown and she had done university and things, and she was like living back with her parents, she was like, I've just got to have a major change, and so she moved to England and so glad she did.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely, absolutely.
Matt:Is there is there a phrase or a mantra that you that she left you with, or is there anything where like you call upon her like her when I say spirit, right? Like her beingness, that way that you felt like she downloaded you with something that helps you either in a difficult moment or whatever?
SPEAKER_02:It's really nice with the kids that I'm always I am always thinking, what would Kathy do? And sort of the other thing was that she really sort of yeah, made sure that she told me you're a great dad before you know before she left us. Like as in she would she reminded me quite a few times, she was like, I feel so comfortable that you're gonna take care of them. And I don't know, it meant the world to me that you know, just those words from her, and it really yeah has helped me to sort of feel more confident about what I do with the kids and fall back on that reinsurance that she told you that.
Matt:Yeah. I mean that's that's a heck of a gift too, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But you know, I'll never forget those um those conversations at times when we knew that her diagnosis was like things were bad, and she would say like we was Yeah, just those little things like we were supposed to grow all together and so I'm just going off on one now, really, aren't I?
Matt:No, you're okay. No, no, no, you're good. Um you kind of said it, but I'm gonna ask you, so I have two more. So the last one is what I think you said about maybe I'll give you a chance to say this. If there is anything you could hear from Kathy, what would you want to hear?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, just you know.
SPEAKER_02:I would I would just have her back here if I could, so uh I'll leave it at that. Yeah, just can't think of one single thing, uh other than you know, yeah, just the words I love you, you know uh reassurance, all of that. I guess one thing as well. So we haven't really talked about this, about the sort of um you know, future, you know, where the where the future um you know in terms of uh so I haven't actually like I'm not with anyone now, but kind of I've sort of dated. I would say it was more like it was an acquaintance and we kind of went out a few times and nothing happened. But it was kind of the start of a kind of like and I think nothing happened partly on my part, it was just like not ready, so I made zero sort of emotional commitment. But I guess like I like to think that one day, you know, I'll find happiness again in terms of you know, there will be someone out there, right? And I can't imagine what circumstances would allow for that to happen at the moment because like the kids are so you know dependent on the rest of it, and we're just you know, we're not young anymore and the rest you know, that there's that whole kind of like, how do you find someone uh when you're in your forties and you got two kids, that baggage and you know, all of that. So anyway, so I'm trying to navigate what that would look like.
SPEAKER_04:But I guess you know, I'd like to think that my wife would be like sorry about the message, uh, that she would be like uh you're doing the right thing. I know that you still love me, but you gotta go out and find a life and you know. So I guess I don't think Yeah.
Matt:No, I I think some sort of like um that permit that permission, right? That that they that they could share with us that like you said I know you still love me, but there is there is some form of uh happiness, not one that you would have envisioned four years ago, but something out there that will make your life um a little more complete again. Um which is is is something really really and I I think is important and I I think if uh if people were being honest and the people that we've lost truly loved us, like I mean, really as we uh seem to when we have these conversations know that they really do that they uh definitively would want us to have that again. The last uh thing I will ask is if you could say something to Kathy, what would you want to say there?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I guess um you know uh a couple of things have been that you know there was we we had to scrimp and save, right? All young couples do, right? You know, and you get a bit older and sometimes you get yeah, you don't need to scrimp and save as much. And I'm like I wish this life that I'm living now in the place where I'm the place I'm at now, the fact that we've got a car that isn't some really shit old banger, like that's the life I should be having with her. We were supposed yeah, yeah, we were supposed to be able to grow together, and now I'm growing without her. I don't know. So it's like I wish that she was able to be a part of that. I did have something else in my mind that's totally just gone out of my head. I forgot.
Matt:I feel the same way. Like when I when so I recently took a vacation and it would have been a vacation that we would have had to like, you know, really aimed for, but because of my situation, I'm able to take now. And I go, wow, at some point during that, I'm like, you should be here to be enjoying this because this was part of the plan, right? Like at some point we would have done this as a couple, and you go, like, I wait, like, because we made choices, right? By the house, say, do you know, fix the car, don't take the trip, right? That you could have been here to enjoy it. Yeah. Well, I think you know, why if you watch your kids close enough, that whatever you're like, I watch my daughter and she is 90% her mom, and there are times when I'm like, she's here, whatever that means, she's around enjoying whatever it is we're doing because I look at my daughter and I'm like, you are all your mom.
SPEAKER_03:So you know, yeah.
Matt:Um, well, man, I want to thank you. Is it well before I say thank you and wrap up? Is there anything else you want to mention? Is there anything else that you would want to say to solo dads or anybody that's unfortunately listening to this or or going through it?
SPEAKER_02:Mainly a big thank you to you, Matt, for creating this community, for bringing us all together in the in the way. And we were talking about this before the podcast, right? But I really like the the nature of the Facebook group that people feel that they can just share when they're having a tough day, and it helps remind us all that, you know, or a tough time in general, that we're all going through this together, you know, men don't always open up about these things. And it's a nice safe space where it's not too overwhelming, there's not too much sort of um, you know. I've I've been in a a separate group that's been a lot more sort of overwhelming and too much at times, and this is yeah, a nice balance. So, yeah, so just keep on, you know, keep on doing what you're doing. Remember you're doing an amazing job, everyone. Um and it's hard what we do, but we're we're a brotherhood, and you know, it's gotta keep sharing our experiences and stories and you know, keep on moving forwards after a difficult time, you know.
Matt:Yeah, I man, I appreciate it. I think that I really appreciate that because I as we talked right before the podcast, you know, you kind of sometimes you go, like, well, why why am I doing this? And what you just said and some of the things I've mentioned before we started recording, it makes me remember like this wasn't a thing. I hadn't found one, and that's why I did it, because I was like, there just wasn't a spot, specifically for dads, right? Like there's plenty of widow or groups for older people that um it's more of the normal story arc, but when it's interrupted like ours are in the middle of a story, it and you got the kids to deal with, there just wasn't a spot. And so I'm glad it's doing exactly what I'd hoped it had done. So I appreciate those words, and um, it's it's it's it's uh it's humbling, and I appreciate it. So I want to say thank you, as I always do, because as I know as a solo dad, as you had to go do the Lego thing, like time is is precious for us, and we were flexible today and we made it work. Um, I will make sure I mention some stuff about colon cancer because I know that's important to both you and I. And I want to just let you know, John, that um I know we don't talk often. I do, and I try to communicate with you, but I do think of you often because I know when we've talked, um, you should know that like I knew that you were handling like not a lot of guys will reach out in that last, we'll call it in the final hours, right? Because it's just crazy. The fact that you were willing to talk about it and listen and even ask me, like, what was it like, just says the groundwork that you as your wife said also, you know, that you're gonna be a good dad, and you should know you are doing a great job of being a dad. And um, the fact that you're loving on those kiddos and you're watching them and you're enjoying their non-normal life with them is amazing, man. And so I've come up with this phrase that one of my friends said he goes, you should use it more often. And I was like, all right, fine, I will, which is I and I don't know if you've seen it in the group, like I deleted a lot of things with like just keep on dating, just do what you're doing.