Episode 3.2 When and How to Be Ready to Date Again

“I’m worth whatever I think I’m worth,” says Ken, describing the mindset he adopted while beginning to date after losing his wife. Rather than thinking of their widower status as baggage, solo dads who are preparing to date again should remember that if their amazing wives once loved them, then another amazing person will, too. They also agree that knowing what they might have done differently in their first marriage gives them the unique opportunity to do better in future relationships. Ken was able to gain valuable insight into his marriage by reading the journals his wife kept throughout her life. Journaling has since become a very useful and therapeutic part of his own daily process.

Mathew expounds upon his theory about the connection between processing grief and putting the body in motion, and both men discuss the important role that working out played in the early days of their grief journeys. Ken explains the importance of carving out time for yourself and the need for children growing up today to learn resilience and self-reliance. They wonder whether people in grief put off finishing projects, like creating a photobook of a late spouse, because they subconsciously conflate moving on from the project with moving on from the loved one. They note the priority men place on relationships depending on their marital status. 

There is a marked difference, they agree, in the way widows are treated by society versus their male counterparts, and how differently both groups are treated in comparison to divorcees. Ken discusses the necessity of mastering your emotions, and the way the emotional response to memories of your spouse changes over time.

Quotes

• “In the stages of going through your grief. I think you have to rediscover your relationship with your person. Go through it, and when you get to that end point, you feel more at peace. I'm not going to say you let them go but you feel more at peace.” (14:33-14:51 | Ken) 
• “If your dream is to have a partner again and a loving relationship and you want to move forward with that. My first thing wasn’t, ‘Oh, I gotta go start dating.’ I was more, ‘Well, what do I still have to do with myself first?” (57:28-57:52 | Ken) 
• “Let yourself feel the grief that you need to feel. Let yourself have the time that you need on your own, like you need that time away from the kids to just decompress whatever it is. Work out, go with your buddies, go away on a weekend at the Cottage or whatever you’ve got to do.” (1:01:36-1:01:53 | Ken)

Links

https://refugeingrief.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Two-Kisses-Maddy-Memoir-Loss/dp/0446564303

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3mwUEoZdrI

https://www.ted.com/talks/nora_mcinerny_we_don_t_move_on_from_grief_we_move_forward_with_it

https://whatsyourgrief.com/growing-around-grief/

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Transcript

Matt: 0:32

Of the Solo Dad Podcast. This most likely will be the first episode of season three. I want to kick it off by saying thank you very much for everyone's support, for everyone who's followed, for everyone who has sent us messages saying how much it means to hear these conversations. So I want to say thank you. And I am sure one of our my founding buddies here, uh Ken, would probably echo the same thing. Hey, Ken. Yeah, what's up, man?

SPEAKER_01: 0:59

Hey. Yeah, for sure. Like uh I just want to, you know, basically say ditto to all those comments. And yeah, to all the all those listeners out there in the podcast, uh, we're really thankful for just being there and being able to reach out to you guys through this medium. And and it's amazing to hear the feedback, the Facebook, I mean, page, getting those comments and having a landing spot for all you guys. I I think it's awesome. And uh yeah, we're just hopeful that we can continue to to you know talk about things that y'all are interested in.

Matt: 1:35

Well, what's interesting is uh one of the first ones that we got uh recently um was literally couldn't the I don't think I shared this with him, uh literally could not come have a better time because I was kind of going, like, yeah, do we really need to do more of this? You know, it takes some effort. Uh, we're all getting busy with our lives, right? Et cetera, et cetera. And you, Ben, and I, a long time ago, when we were supposed to go down to the Dutch carousel, jokingly, when this wound up happening, I remember us talking about like, well, if it helps just one person, it's worth it. So I was like, Well, there's the one, and there's been several since, obviously. But I was like, Well, we're gonna do a season three and it'll probably continue to go. And I would just encourage everybody, just keep following along. Um, I'm super excited about some stuff that I'm working on uh for solo dads. And so just keep following along because there hopefully will be some more stuff coming in a couple of months. So, but I really am thankful for what the kind words and um what's what's been helping helping other folks and and then also guys, sorry, and then also uh hearing guys now that you know, I mean, you are how far out now, Ken? You are how many years?

SPEAKER_01: 2:45

Uh coming up on year number four here in uh less than a month, yeah.

Matt: 2:50

Yeah, I'm coming up on five, a few more months away. But and I'm sure you can echo this. Like when I see a post of a guy who gets into the solo dad group on Facebook and he's six months or nine months out, and I go, Wow, it was just like yesterday when you know they're talking about like I don't know what I'm doing, I'm so confused. Uh, you know, whether they have a little or a teen, uh teenage like you've got our early teens, and just nodding my head going, like, yeah, I remember how that felt, and it'll be okay, right?

SPEAKER_01: 3:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, it's it's so you're right. Like, I actually just wanted to say a shout out to all those Facebook guys, and I know there's actually some of them in the group that have kind of taken on a bit of a you know leadership role. Um, there's been awesome involvement uh with some of the nights that they've sponsored. Like I've actually been trying to hit up one of those nights, and I apologize. This is a shout out to all you guys. I know he's been involved um a lot. I think that Jeff. And um, yeah, like I've been trying to sort of but I mean, yeah, all of us have busy lives, obviously. And I I am uh we were just talking about this before we got on, but yeah, with the boys and and my two boys with their sports schedules, and I I actually coach, help coach both sports. So it keeps me busy, keeps me active, but uh I I read as much as I can, and I think that's a really cool thing too. It's a really uh I find our Facebook page. Uh I I gravitate towards it. I don't do much social posting. I gotta be honest. I'm uh not a social media guy. I and I have never been, but I've gotten into it a little bit more. But I land on our Facebook page quite a bit, and you know, I kind of I kind of treat it as like a a special sort of time to read into that because I know it's gonna evoke an emotional response, and I know I'm gonna like sort of either comment or you know, have a memory of myself and and like be able to empathize and and also uh relate directly to a lot of the same things that you guys are posting about. So yeah, definitely, you know, it's not going on read. Obviously, a lot of you guys have already said that. They just you just love having a spot to post anything that's on your mind, and we love that too.

Matt: 5:13

Yeah, I remember Memorial Tattoo or uh Tribute Tattoo. I know you you had some work done. I know Ben had some work done, and just that sort of conversation and watching guys um what they created or what they thought about, or see hearing the meaning behind those tattoos, and then like a guy thinking about getting one, and just I, you know, I've thought about it, and you you know, and and it's just really cool to see that little mini micro conversation, just one little topic, and and then it brings up, you know, one guy got one of uh Phoenix because it was, you know, rise up again out of you know this difficult thing, and he's got a really good quote. He was actually on Paul um on the podcast while back, and you know, another couple guys having like the heart, the heartbeat thing, and then going into something and just some uh uh another one of like, you know, you I've seen one where they get their signature or something, and so just all those different ideas and different ways to remember your person, and just also watching the guys kind of you know share a little more in just this little area about why they got the tattoo they did, you know, if making this up, but I don't think a guy has a hello kitty tattoo. But if their wife was their favorite thing was hello kitty, there and you go like that's actually really kind of sweet and really cool that they thought about that, right? So I don't think anyone has a hello kitty tattoo, but if you do, it's totally fine. Um, so yeah, I I I a little appreciation at the front and a little gratitude because it's it's really been cool and um it means it means a lot. And I also it's helped me a lot because I know I've mentioned a few times on the podcast with my move and stuff that I did, I feel like my grief got paused for a bit. So I might be four years out, but I feel like I'm like three and a half, maybe two. Um, because it is nice to jump onto that page and see both someone who's um I don't want to say further down the journey because it just doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01: 7:05

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

Matt: 7:07

It's not further, yeah. It's it's everyone's a little different, and it's like it's it's it's good to see everybody in different places because I get something like when a guy first joins the group and he's six months out, I get something from that from someone like uh Bill. Hopefully people don't mind me mentioning names, uh, who's 15, I think, years out and you know, raised his daughters and one's done with college, the other's going in, and just his his wisdom and just him being there going, like, look, I made it and my kids are okay, and going like, oh wow, you mean this sippy cup that's spilled isn't the end of the world. So I get every I really get a lot from regardless of where people are at in the timeline. I know there's no time in grief, but well, and that's that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01: 7:51

Like, I think it's I think there is, yeah, there is no timeline, but we're all moving forward, whether we like it or not. You can either be moving forward and kind of staying in place, or you can actually be moving forward with that timeline. And I've done both. Like I I know what it's like to do both, but I think the most powerful thing in in turning uh like in sort of evaluating that journey is the perspective. And it's the perspective that we get from everyone's different story because I I have to admit, the first time I was uh I was in uh mode, you know, the six months out, you're look looking at at it, and then what I I remember when uh you know, when I did the um the journaling and got into the sort of the grief uh I guess it was it was through um oh what's the author that we always reference there.

Matt: 8:49

It's okay now being ref refuge in chief Megan.

SPEAKER_01: 8:52

Yeah. So Megan was kind of like a a very uh sort of uh I guess she was a little bit of a pioneer in doing that in bringing people together and getting them online and getting, you know, actually being able to say share your story with people and do exercises that were s sort of interactive from a distance, because you're like doing it from I did it early, so it was still on Facebook at the time. But uh it gave you perspective. It gave you that perspective like A, uh I'm not alone. Uh B uh, there's a lot of people in a way worse situation, whatever that is. Like they could have three kids, they could have four kids. Maybe, you know, we've heard some of those crazy stories where it's like, yeah, it was a car accident. Not only is my wife no longer with me, and I I lost my youngest or I lost my oldest son or daughter. Like there's all kinds of people out there. So we, you know, we really appreciate that all of that sharing your story because you might not think it's gonna make a difference, but I guarantee you, one person reading that, giving them that perspective is like, okay, it's not that bad. If they can do it, I can do it. And and if they're moving forward in their journey, so can I. Like, and that's the biggest thing, I think.

Matt: 10:09

I when I think too, I think one of the cool things is um that sounded bad. One of the other really amazing things is when someone shares a story that seems to resonate more tragically than our own. Not only do we go like, Wow, I I I I can probably not like if they can do it, I can do it necessarily, but it's also like, wow, this person's a little bit, but like you also kind of go like look at what this person's been through, and they're willing to share it, and we have a lot in common in the grief space, but the different layers that they may have compared to our layers are just like I'm thinking of a guy who who I think hopefully I think he just joined the group either today or yesterday, right out of the movie Parenthood, his uh the the two kisses for Maddie movie on Netflix that we reviewed, he literally lost his wife. They had to take the baby out, like she he she was nine months pregnant, and he's um he's just in the group, and I'm looking, and he's got this cute, I'm pretty sure it's a baby boy, beautiful little son, and he's sitting on the beach with him, and I think he's about six, nine months out, and he's going, What do I do? And I, you know, I just tell him I was like, My kiddo was 13 months, man. She's now almost five years old, and um, we're both still alive. So it it's possible, but I again I can't can't imagine going through what he did like much like in a movie in the hospital. I mean, I had a year of my wife being around our daughter, so it's yeah, it's it's it's a fascinating thing, and there's a bond there, and there's a I don't like the word, I can't think of another one, but right now there's a comparison, but not like right, it's a thing of like who hurts worse if I kick you in the shin or someone kicks me in the shin. No, it hurts a person moving so yeah. I don't think it's not a comparison in a bad way.

SPEAKER_01: 11:50

We're not we're not doing it in a competitive which is bizarre because you're right, guys in general, we all are competitive, like a lot of us, like and by nature, that's what you know, ever since we were little, we we compete. Oh, yeah, you can you can spit that far, I'll spit this far. Like, oh, you can, you know. But but in this sense, it's not like yeah, I think I think that's what's neutralized. It's like we're not trying to compete with each other, but we're just being honest with each other, and I think that is amazing.

Matt: 12:22

What so to kind of go back to what we were talking about at early on stage, like early on stage of grief, and you were talking about looking at other guys and going like, wow, you know, it's not it's possible it's not as bad as so-and-so's or comparison, if you will. What did you find that the journaling in that program, which again, I'll put the link in the podcast notes. I don't know. I'm gonna give her a shout out again. I don't know if I've heard a single person say that it wasn't worth their time. Yeah, like at this point, I've probably talked to a thousand plus people in grief in some form or fashion. And anyone who's taken that program seems to have really helped them.

SPEAKER_01: 13:04

So yeah, and and I admit, like I was not a journaler. And you know what? It it did like it did actually strike close to home because my my wife, what Leanne, was a huge journaler, and that was actually one of the processes that I went through in the early stages was actually, you know, like literally going back pre You read a bunch of her journals, right?

Matt: 13:30

Yeah, yeah, remember that.

SPEAKER_01: 13:32

Pre-Ken and Leanne, rereading her her like, and these are things that I've never read. Like, so get Oh, yeah, why would you have?

Matt: 13:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 13:40

Right. So so put that into perspective of having like I felt like I was I was a little bit cocooned because you know that first you basically that first two, three months, you are like if you find if you find something in one of their pockets when you're going through clothes, it's like gold. It's like it's like, oh my gosh, look at this, look at this gum. This gum was half eaten by her. And now I have it. You know? But that was but that was part of it. Like I was gone into the tunneling, and uh and but I reflected back, I was like, yeah, it's it was such a gift that she left behind to have all of that to reread because you know how they when they talk about like you and and I think this I know it's kind of hokey, but I think this is kind of true. In in the stages of going through your grief, I think you have to rediscover your relationship with your person. Go through it, and then you're kind of when you get to that endpoint, you're you you feel more at peace. I'm not gonna say you let them go, but you feel more at peace because you've re-gone like you've gone through the sort of the high and and a lot of people I've talked to that have done this in different ways, like through their photos and through their, you know, there's all of that, very cathartic. Um you know, some people like it's some people it's the process of you know, eventually going through the closet and and like deciding what you are gonna keep and what you're gonna get rid of, and or and then and then for me it was too, is the tattoo, like the looking into the tattoo and doing the research and doing all that. But I think that all culminates in rediscovering your person in a mental way, in a in sort of like an abstract way, and then you feel like you've gone, you feel like you've done your due diligence. Like that's how I felt. I was like, I felt like I paid the proper homage to her.

Matt: 15:46

When you go and look at uh your person's life and their life with you through a different perspective, so I'm gonna use a video game analogy, you switch from third person to first person view, right? So if you go from first person, you back the camera out and you see the whole thing from a different angle. I wonder if people get stuck in always replaying it in their own first person view. I'm just gonna stay with this analogy for a minute, but that they can't really get to the point of, you know, not that I'm I don't like the word that I can package that up and move forward with it. Where if you're always viewing it from the first person view, it's always happening kind of back again in real time, and you're not able to really package it up because you're still kind of processing and dealing with it.

SPEAKER_03: 16:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: 16:37

Because I'm thinking about my thing, like you mentioned the pictures, and I kind of went like I really should probably do a better job of getting some pictures things done. And I'm sure I've mentioned this in other podcasts. And I'm wondering if part of the conflict I have internally of doing it is almost like this idea of if I finish that, I don't have to. I can, but don't have to go revisit those pictures ever again.

SPEAKER_01: 17:05

Right.

Matt: 17:05

Right?

SPEAKER_01: 17:06

It's and until Blair's a lot older.

Matt: 17:08

Well, but but I mean like but like they're in a book or whatever, but no, but I don't have to. If I kind of get done with them, but if I'm never, it's a very convenient thing of if I'm never done with it, yeah, I can just keep repeating.

SPEAKER_01: 17:20

Instead of it's it's here, and for the listeners, it's in the front of your mind, not the back of your mind.

Matt: 17:28

Right. And I'm wondering if, you know, when people struggle to kind of to steal from, oh, it's not Megan Divine, it's the other lady, and I'm can't remember the TED talk of move move forward with rather than move move on from. Right. And I love that phrase, and I I wish I should probably send her a check for 25 cents every time we use it. Um, but it's a great, it's a great one. And I'm wondering, and I'm thinking a lot about myself too, is like, I wonder if getting stuck in that um if I don't, if I don't fully complete, I'm just gonna stay with the picture example. If I don't fully complete the picture project, that means if I'm not done with it, I'm not done with Marcy, my wife, right? And not that we're ever done with them because we're gonna, they're as I've told my daughter that you know, anyone that we loved and influenced our lives, we carry with them everywhere we go all the time, whether it was a grandma or a grandpa or a mom or a dad or an aunt and uncle or our favorite English teacher. Doesn't matter if they cared about us and influenced us, we're gonna carry a piece of them everywhere we go. So you're never really done with it. But as I you said it, and I was just kind of like, that's an interesting because then it and I think what it leads to is the next question is if you're done with it, well, now what?

SPEAKER_03: 18:40

Yeah.

Matt: 18:40

So then it goes to, and I think this is a good segue. Yeah, the now what is like now you got it, and we were talking about this before. Now you may have to take care of yourself or do some things for yourself, and that can be really scary, right? Right. So yeah, answer the and now what, and then let's talk a little more about taking time for ourselves.

SPEAKER_01: 18:57

You're right. I think that was kind of the process. It was like if I think back to it, it's like I I needed to spend that time with Leanne and I needed to, you know, do what I like. I literally read you know a ton of her journals. And it was and then it was hilarious because and then I do you remember this? Like, because she she was bilingual, like she had she was totally uh French and English speaker. And when she met me, and then when she started journaling about me, uh the stuff that she wanted to sort of even keep a little bit more private, she was right, she was writing in French. I'm like sitting here at two in the morning, Google Translate, going through and like typing a lot of some French into so I can I can understand what she's showing what she was writing about.

Matt: 19:48

What she was writing. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

So yeah, so it was a very it was, it was a very intense, cathartic, uh personal process that I was very thankful. For. Like it was, like I said, it was like a gift that she left behind.

Matt: 20:03

Oh, 100%. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 20:05

And then and then that sort of opened me up to the the value of journaling. Even though I'm not, I wouldn't call myself a journaler. But then I was like, you know what? This is good. And then that's the other thing that I was going to touch on is that two things that the journaling program did, sort of to bring it full circle, is that it exposes you to uh a lot of people that are in different stages, and and for better or for worse, you do get exposed to the like I'm gonna lack of a better term, the lifers, the people that are stuck in like I I was literally reading some posts and I was like, oh my gosh, like seven, seven years, nine years, and you were still uh like like I was new, I'm new, and I'm like reading this going, whoa. And all I know is like all I remember thinking was I don't want to be there. The the other thing, so one quick point on the journaling last and we're gonna move on, but is that it so it did it did its purpose and it got me into sort of that mode of like, yeah, you know what, this will be this this could be helpful. And the and the good thing I I think is that you can cherry pick. That's the other thing is cherry pick what speaks to you. Like it's not about doing a course and doing it from you know A to Z, and you know, I've done every single assignment, every single, you know, writing, creative writing assignment that they've given down the buttons. No, like you you can cherry pick and pick the ones that sort of fit to you and and whatever. And I probably, you know, I definitely did that. Uh but the other thing is that it also gets you into the habit, which then I started noticing it wasn't just doing these assignments. I actually used you get into a little bit of the habit of journaling, and what you end up doing, or at least what I ended up doing, was journaling to Leanne. So you start writing and you don't even realize, but you're telling a story to them. You're writing your feelings as if they're part of it. And I think that was part of that process for me anyway, was that it was involving it was almost like, you know, like you're you realize that yeah, I'm the only one that's gonna read this, and it's not, you know, whatever. But I found that it was actually a very calming uh you know, sort of exercise where I'm like, yeah, it just naturally flowed. Like all the things that because I think as guys, that's what we miss. We miss our partners, we miss the people, we miss all of those things we had, like, oh, I didn't get to tell you about this, and I you know they're not around, and they're not you know, so I think it does if you can get into that, it fills that a little bit, it lets you release that. And and then I think it was, you know, that's I think part of moving forward with the grief. I think that that a lot that's another outlet. That's the way I looked at it, and and then it was even like even when I started dating, I was like telling her about you know the people I was dating, and yeah, you know, I'm not too sure about this one, I don't know, like you know, you know, and it is kind of cool that way when I think back on it. But um and I think that sort of segued into the whole thing we were talking about earlier about how you realize, yes, you know, you are around for your kids and for your you're trying to you're filling the void of of a whole person and you're trying to be both a lot of times every day. You're trying to do both. Um, you know, you're you're the dad, but you're also the mom, the caregiver, the uh you need you need consoling and uh all of that kind of stuff. Um but I think once you're on I think you get to this point where you can be honest with yourself and like you're you're saying is that you realize that there is value in doing things for yourself that are gonna benefit your kids because I'm gonna be a better dad and I'm also gonna be I'm gonna come back a little fresher. You know, um I was mentioning earlier, my brother-in-law has been was huge in in allowing me to take time uh to do, you know, some basically getting into some stuff in the gym and getting into a competition for CrossFit and then doing some other stuff like that took me away and spent time with my with some of my close friends, but that was really beneficial because I I would notice it was like an emotional lift and and and a mental health gain because then I come back and I feel refreshed. I feel, you know, and a lot of I know I've read a lot of the posts like guys are burnt out, and I I know I really feel for a lot of the situations that there were guys don't have any family or close caregivers or or people that can spell them off.

SPEAKER_03: 25:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 25:10

But you know, I I've you know, my my theory is is work with what you got, you know, adapt and you know, and take people up on their offers. Like that was the other thing, too, is like, oh, you know, Holden can sleep over at our place this weekend, you know, if that's okay. Oh, perfect. That's awesome.

Matt: 25:30

So, real quick, like quickly address like the guilt, right?

SPEAKER_03: 25:34

Oh, yeah.

Matt: 25:35

So when when the friend offers that the kid can sleep over, right? You want to jump at the chance, but then like this stupid little guilt monster, like a gremlin. It's it's this here, it's a great analogy. It's this it's this cute little fuzzy offer that looks like the little cute gremlin, and then it goes after midnight and you feed it, and it turns into the bad gremlin called guilt.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

Because I've had it go south too. Like, I get this, like I had a double sleepover. I remember this totally. I had both boys sleepover, my youngest, just a block over. And I was like planning a guy's night. One of my friends, one of my buddies is gonna host poker. I'm like, oh, perfect. Actually, both are on sleepovers. I can go, well, at 11:30, and I'm like a good 25 minutes away. 11:30, I get a text. Oh, Drew woke up, uh, he wants to go home, and they're gonna walk over, they're gonna walk back. And I'm like, what? I'm like, and he knows how to get in the garage. Like he's like nine at the time.

Matt: 26:35

Yeah, yeah, but he's going home to an empty house. You're like, I'm not home, right?

SPEAKER_01: 26:39

I'm not home, and I'm like, oh shit, I gotta go. And I'm like, and I so I'm busting it back to the house. I get back to the house, you know, I walk in, there's his pillow I can see is in the foyer, I can see some of his backpack, whatever, but they're gone. Like, obviously, they came in, they checked it out, and they went back. And then I went back to the house to see where they are, but their the house is like sealed up tight. And I'm texting the dad, he's got his phone on, you know, after midnight, silent by the time this is happening. So I can't raise anybody. I'm sitting there in his driveway, it's like quarter to one in the morning, feeling like this big, like tiny, like I'm the worst dad ever. I wasn't there when my kid came back after being weirded out at a sleepover, and now he's got to go cry. But you know what? The next morning, like obviously I'm there. I'm like, well, there's not a lot I can do besides break the door down, and I'm not gonna do that. So I I go I go home, I go to bed, you know, and then of course next morning they roll in and I'm like, Drew, what happened last night? Like, are you like what's what was going on? Oh, I woke up, I didn't really feel like I didn't want to sleep there anymore, I just wanted to come home, you know. But him and his friend, they they dealt with it and they, you know, they went back and then he crashed. And it was like, yes, you can pull it all out on yourself, but the point is by like 9 a.m., he was happy we were having pancakes, and it was like, what are we doing now? Like there was no like kids keep moving forward. That's one thing that I want to say is that like there's no, I don't think kids like judge you as hard as you judge yourself, A. And B, their memories are so like like I bet you even if I asked him about that story today, he he would hardly remember it.

Matt: 28:36

Oh, so you're talking about how like they if you talk to him now about that event, your son would have been like, Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 28:42

And it does, and it teaches them that resiliency too, that they don't have to have you around.

Matt: 28:48

Um, like which so how much is that how much is that them and how much of it is us?

SPEAKER_01: 28:55

I I think we have to initiate it.

Matt: 28:57

Like, I think you do No, I meant how much of it is us wanting them around and them and them needing us around.

SPEAKER_01: 29:04

Right. Yeah, you're right. Like there's there's you're probably right, like in terms of uh ebb and flow, like you know, who who will need who the most and things like that. But I like I've similar to you, like I just really want, you know, that that's one thing, especially in today's society. Like, we I think our kids are we don't give them enough credit, we coddle them too much, and you know, it it does it does rob them of some of that resiliency that they can naturally learn from natural consequences and doing things on their own. And you know, like having, you know, I'm I'm loving that, you know, I was able to pull back um from the nanny and actually say, no, guys, no one's doing this for you anymore. You know, you got to make your own lunches, you gotta get, you know, getting up for school, getting your stuff ready. That's your responsibility. Like you got to get your backpack packed, like it all of this stuff that sure, you're gonna have to pick up the pieces, you're gonna have to help them out every once in a while, but there there's this thing once you get them on board to say, look, I I do a lot, but I can't do everything for you. And I think that's the fine line, too, with with dads, is that is that we get into this mode of we're super dad and we're doing all this stuff, but you know, you can't maintain that forever. You know, you you have to like sort of let go of those reins and let your kids know that no, you know what? You're gonna have to do this, you're gonna have to, you know, sort that out.

Matt: 30:43

I tell, I tell my I tell my the little one, uh, there's times when I I I definitely have some distinct faces I must have from that are just standard, because every now and then she'll be like, Dad, or you know, she'll be like, You're tired, huh? Or you're frustrated or something. And I'll remind her, I'm like, how many people are in this house? And she'll be like, one. And I'm like, right. So and she's really good at when I ask, I'm like, can you be my helper? And I think she's five. So, you know, um, she should be making her own lunch. So you're right, no, it's um uh but like you you mentioned right before we right, we but you mentioned right before, like, I don't always have to go get her water for her, she can go get it, right?

SPEAKER_01: 31:22

Like it's so there's a little step stool going in the kitchen, yep, absolutely, yeah.

Matt: 31:27

And and there is something to where I agree a hundred percent where like you build these little successes, and it it's a huge win for these kids. And also if they do it wrong, there's consequence, like you know there's just my youngest.

SPEAKER_01: 31:40

He's he's he's still short, he parkours the kitchen like nobody's business. Up on the counter, stand up. I can get anything from any any level of yeah, boom, up on the counter.

Matt: 31:53

But I think it's I wonder, I wonder it'd be interesting, and this is where um it would be fun to have a crosstalk, right? I wonder if the guys, and I know this isn't all true, so no one like jump my crap or anything, but the men are from Mars, women are from Venus, Venus book, like please just give me a second, folks. We're guys inherently are fixers, right? And very almost like literal in the whole, you know, that example of it's not about the string, right? It's not about the nail, right? That's undoing someone's string or something like that, I think, right? You know, it's about not the nail, that's what it is. It's the paint, and we're like, then we just want to talk anyway. That we are inherently fixers by nature. And I'm not saying women can't be, and I'm not saying men can't be the other, but that since we run around doing, then when we get in solo dad mode, we just start doing and doing and doing when we realize, like, do we take a moment and think to ourselves, is this something that I really should be doing? Is this something that would be jointly shared if my partner was alive? And what does that mean if it was? Should I still be doing it, or should I outsource it or ask the kids to do it, or do I let it go all together? You're like, you know what? Decorating's not gonna be a thing in our house, screw it. Um right, and then and then the other is like if it's both a hard no, like I shouldn't be doing this, and if my partner's here, she wouldn't be doing it either, or we'd be doing something else with it, like with the kids. It'd be interesting to hear, like, do how how widows, widowers or widowers, handle the differences of like, are they do they feel the same way where it's like we just have to do all these things for our kids? Or does like a mom component kick in and they're like, no, at some point you just have to let them figure it out? Like, I don't know, I don't, it's an interesting question.

SPEAKER_01: 33:30

It really didn't like I get it.

Matt: 33:32

Um I mean, if I was gonna answer it sort of like I guess my question is, is it nature or nurtures are the guys compensating out of our inherent nature, right?

SPEAKER_01: 33:41

Yeah, like we yeah, I think we're definitely aware of of trying to compensate um for that lack of female presence and and nurturing and stuff like that uh with the kids, but I think we definitely have a little bit more of an easier road because our our minds are sort of set. Now it just depends. Like I'm obviously drawing huge generalizations here, but when you think about women being more nurturing for their kids and being more focused on that and being more empathetic to childcare, um in general, according to the old way, like I would say all of us are are totally, you know, we buck against that trend because we have to do both. Like we've been we we were thrown into this role of being solo dads, and um, you know, it's like we don't we don't conform to that those old social norms anymore. But I would think that widows have a bit more I think that's why widows in general take longer to uh start dating.

SPEAKER_03: 34:52

I I I I know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

And I and I I think right in general, on average, and I think they I think there's like all these social norms that are like, well, women should you gotta take care of your kids, you gotta just focus on that. Like, you know, you you need to you need to take time to grieve, meaning you have to conform to other people's timetables of what they think you should take, like before you're you know, accepted into like looking for another partner. I think all of those things are are projected onto females way more than they are men are men, for sure.

Matt: 35:33

Hey there, friends and family, followers both near and far, and our tribe of allies in the solo dad community. Wanted to break away from the conversation for just a few minutes to remind you that the Solo Dad is wherever you may be roaming online. We are on Instagram and TikTok with the handle Solo Dad. If you or someone you know would like to join a supportive community and you are a widower, we have a Facebook group. The name of the Facebook group is Solo Dad, a group for grieving widowers who are trying to parent. If you want to reach out to us directly, we can be reached at SoloDadPodcast at gmail.com. If you found any of these conversations interesting, insightful, maybe entertaining, we would love a mention on social media or take a moment and review us on iTunes. I want to take a moment to also remind you of this is not a one-person show. We have a friend, a supporter, and an ally at hivecast.fm. Dax listened to the show, likes what we're doing for solo dads, and reached out. He and his team are now doing my show notes. They're doing the audio files for the pre-launch. They are also the ones that are doing those great graphics that you're now seeing. They have taken so many things off of my to-do list. It is now allowing me to focus on more content, more interviews in the solo dad community. If you are doing a podcast or thinking of doing a podcast, schedule your free one-on-one call with Dax and his team. Let them know that the Solo Dad sent you and that we think they're fantastic. They have several different options and several other helpful things they can do for you. Everything from helping with YouTube channel to marketing to editing. That is hivecast.fm for your podcast support and needs. Lastly, I want to make sure I give my humble thanks and gratitude for all of the support and all of you that have listened. We still hope you find these conversations insightful, useful. Maybe you'll laugh, maybe you'll cry. Thank you for being there with us. Thank you to all the dads that have volunteered their time to be on these shows and share what is one of the most difficult journeys they'll ever be on. As always, thank you for listening, and let's get back to the conversation. When you read in some of the group chats that are co-ed that are widows and widowers, the unmitigated gall people have to say things to widows is staggering. Like I've had some where they're like, oh, you know, when this person comes up to you and is like, you know, oh, I guess what was one? Um just the other day, someone was saying, Oh, you know what it's like when someone walks up and you know, they tilt their head sideways and they they feel really sorry for you. I'm like, never happened. Like it's no one's ever given me a condescending look ever. Or the other one of no one ever has ever said anything about me dating too soon, right? Or like, oh, are you dating already, or you took the ring? I'm like, maybe it's because I'm a guy and people just don't say.

SPEAKER_01: 39:08

People are like relieved. If you're dating, people look at you and go, oh, oh, that's good. Like it's good to hear.

Matt: 39:16

You need to find someone to help with that trainer. No, it's interesting. Like, this is where, again, shameless little maybe plant of the there is there is some crosstalk conversations that are gonna be happening soon. So it's a fascinating one because is it like the social part? Is it the fact that you know, single, I'm using this word very deliberately, single moms um accepted by society, if you will, than like a single dad would be if if you will. Like I'm not I'm not saying that it's not, I'm not saying it's easy. Um, but like, and then so you go to the widow mode and they're like, well, you know, Sarah, who's a single mom, can do. How come Jenny is a widow is a widow can't do it? And it's like, those are vastly different, and we've talked about this before, vastly different experiences, you know. As a single dad, they're kind of like, Well, the bar's so low, and like, yeah, the kid's not dirty, and you know, they're fed, you're doing good enough.

SPEAKER_01: 40:06

And you remember remember we're talking about that with the with the comparison of the divorcees to the the widow and widower groups?

SPEAKER_02: 40:13

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:14

Divorces are like, Oh yeah, well, you know, I've gotta have my kids next weekend, so it's gonna be time. We're like, What? Like, oh, it's so hard to be on your own. Like, you get a break from your kids because they get to go, and then you know, we were like, dude, try alone. Like, you know, when you you know when you used to be married, and then you would go on a business trip and you were like, at home, that's our lives forever.

Matt: 40:41

24-7, right, right, right. Well, and so it's I would be it'd be very interesting to see that type of conversation of like what and I you know I'll write this down, but it it would be it'd be really fascinating to hear our widow friends talk about, you know, whether it's I'm just gonna generally speaking, dad mode versus mom mode, right? Like, is it a mom mode thing and they're just like because they're able to mom mode it and we're over here like dad moding it, like running around.

SPEAKER_01: 41:08

I'm just thinking like they have a lot more static to work through because of all of these other norms that are being like thrown at them socially, whereas whereas like you and I like you said, like I I very rarely ran into any of those stigmas.

Matt: 41:27

Like I like I would I don't incite violence, but I I I would want to like I don't even want to say the joke, so I won't even go with it. But like if someone if someone had the gall to say like, oh, I noticed you took the ring off, it's been two years, a little early, don't you think? I'd be like, huh, let's let's step outside for a moment, Show.

SPEAKER_01: 41:47

Like I needed to say I've already I've even heard comments where guys are like or like women have said to other women and be like, Well, you're dating after six months. I guess I guess the uh your marriage wasn't in that great of a spot. Right?

Matt: 42:05

Like, could you imagine a guy saying that to another guy, or even like I I can't I so to all of our widow friends out there, we're sorry that the world's not nice to you. No, no. So sorry, we kind of got a little segue there, but yeah, did you find real quick? So let's let's I'm gonna take a high level. So, and I know you had a lot, not just these kind of high-level things, but because you are, I think if we can safely reshare that you are engaged to a very lovely lady, right? Right, and and happily engaged, happily engaged, not forcefully or terrifiedly engaged, happily engaged. So if we say refuge in grief and journaling, we're kind of like the part of a larger process of processing the memory of your life with your wife. That's kind of a nice little rhyming thing. And then then you start it. Was it at the same time in the middle of there? When did you kind of start taking some time? Because I am, and I'm trying to find evidence on this, a huge believer that there's something about grieving and physical movement. If you I don't know if I've met any guy yet that is truly that I think is in a very that shows to me that they're in a very healthy grief spot, that somewhere in their grief journey, moving wasn't part of it. Right. Right? Like just whatever that means to you. Notice I'm not going physical workouts. I'm just like some sort of physical movement has to happen for us, I think, to be able to process part of this grief component.

SPEAKER_01: 43:36

So was that part of like when you started taking care of yourself a little bit, or you did like the the the you know, the well it was it was sort of serendipitous a little bit because um my one of my really good friends, he lost his mom about two weeks after Leanne died. And so he and I he got time off work, I was off. Um, you know, and then that's when we just started working out together. So that was another little, you know, sort of thing that fell into place. Like when I look back to all of the things that happened for me to sort of progress through that, and I I just feel really lucky, I feel really blessed, and um, you know, I really feel like you know, God and Leanne was watching out for me, sort of um in that in that weird sort of way, because there was all these little things that had to happen, and they happened in the right time, the right succession. And so we spent a lot of time working out together. There was a lot of uh you know sharing of grief and you know just having that guy time when you can talk to somebody that's sort of going, yeah, he was going through from a different perspective because his mom, but tragically and very rapidly his mom, you know, passed away. And um so uh it was uh you know, it was really interesting. And then I guess it was at that point um where it was like, yeah, like I need to do these things for to maintain my emotional and physical health. And it we you're right, the physical stuff was such an outlet, it was such a good there's just something there.

Matt: 45:16

I just it's an itch that I am I am very, very rapidly focused on. I'm going, like, there's something because my little lippmins is like so early on after every workout, you know what? I couldn't get to my car fast enough. And we're not talking, I'm like killing myself, we're just working out, like I'm just at the gym. I couldn't get to the car fast enough to start to cry. Right. Yeah. And so I just I just feel like there's something there. So as you as you kind of did that and you said it was kind of serendipitous, did you notice like, I mean, we're not again, we're never done with grief, but did you notice that it was like more regulated? I've noticed two things. If I'm not physically active and I'm not getting, and I'm not saying we get great sleep as solo dads and solo moms, but like if I don't get good sleep and Fitbit lets me know, that's when I notice my emotional responses aren't quite within what I would call the average range. Did you notice that as well? Like as you started to like move around again and yeah, I mean, I would you're right.

SPEAKER_01: 46:17

Like, I think there would there would be I think it helped um it's I don't know the right word, probably regulate because I remember that first six months, like every time I got in the car, every time, like songs would come on, whatever. Right, you know, it was like it was like I just called it the the crying car. Like, oh, going for a drive somewhere, I gotta go get groceries.

SPEAKER_03: 46:42

Crying car, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:43

I I and believe me, I hadn't like you had to keep like a ton of tissues and cleanics in your car because you knew that it was gonna happen. And I think it was just because your brain knew I'm in this environment by myself, no one's gonna hear me, no one's really gonna see me. I can just let it out. And when you have kids, you're controlling that because that was another thing. Like when kids are up, you know, you're you're you're keeping it together, you're trying to do everything that you need to do. You know, kids go to bed, that was the other thing too, right? A lot of times we stay up, we're we're we're kind of burning the midnight oil. I'm a night person anyway, so that was all the time I was getting into the journals and I was doing the music thing and like all that. So all of those times, you have to have those releases though. Like that's the thing. If you're not, if you're not crying, you gotta you're gonna be crying because of something else.

Matt: 47:37

Something else. It's it's gonna well, we we've talked about, I know early on we talked about this.

SPEAKER_01: 47:41

Like, if you think for a minute you can somehow yeah, and I don't care if you say all you guys, yeah, if you all you guys say you're not a crier, that's bullshit.

unknown: 47:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 47:51

It's gonna come out.

Matt: 47:52

It's coming out one way or the other, whether you like it. It's almost like having the stomach flu. Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_01: 47:58

I don't I don't you're not a blubbering, you know, sober. Your eyes are not leaking salty water. Right.

Matt: 48:07

If someone's not chopping an onion at some point, you or they'll just go to the kitchen and chop an onion and get the get it started.

SPEAKER_01: 48:13

Get it started.

Matt: 48:14

Yeah, I think you know, I maybe I'll start asking this and when I have some of the other uh guests on and be like, hey, you know, what are you doing for your physicalness? And do you notice a difference? Because I think that's a really good thing. Because notice nowhere in here, whether it's you know going on a hike or if it's hitting a heavy bag or if it's training for a CrossFit competition or whatever your jam is, physically, there's just something there.

SPEAKER_00: 48:39

That's right.

Matt: 48:39

A little bit of refuge in grief, a little bit of journaling, a little bit of taking taking care of yourself and and letting that emotional uh emotional connection to the physical movement. So now what?

SPEAKER_01: 48:56

What what's uh what now what? And what do I want? What do I want? What do I really, you know, and you can ask you that yourself that question, and maybe you maybe you don't know, but you should keep revisiting that and be like, what's next? Like, you know, and just like we started off, like saying, like, yeah, I I know Leanne wouldn't want me to be by myself, she wouldn't want me to be going in alone, and that and I don't want to be. So I knew right away. I was like, I need to find someone that I want to love again. I need to find her. That's what I need. And then that was kind of the tipping point of going, okay, well, what do I need to do to get to that point? And then that was that sort of like, even though, and and then keep this in mind, you're managing grief all the way through this process and continue to. It's not like it goes away, it's just that I think it it's you've dealt with enough of the components of it that it then begins to live with you and not over you.

Matt: 50:02

If that's I love have you seen I love that. Remember, they they have you seen the the um pick pick, I guess it's a picture. The old thought of grief was like the jar. How did that work? It's like the ball's in the jar, and the jar gets bigger. That's what it is. Right, and it's the other way, or no, the the the ball gets bigger, it fills up more, it fills up less. And the other one is like, no, it's actually the the jar grows around it, so grief stays the same size, right? Your life grows around it. And so, kind of again, quoting the the TED talk lady, and I'm so sorry I can't remember her name.

SPEAKER_03: 50:35

I think you're right.

Matt: 50:36

You're right, it is Nora McHenry, you're right. Thank you. Yes, you're right, Nora McHenry. Um, that uh you know you move forward with it, not on from it. Thanks, buddy. And so I think that um, and I think what I think the other part that is interesting is that I think some people paint this idea of like if you not grieving the person, it somehow reflects like you mentioned a minute ago, right? Like somehow like you no longer love them. And I'm like, you know, I don't know, my dad died 30 some plus years, I could keep missing the math up 35, 36 years ago. Doesn't mean I love him any less, but I definitely don't cry as often as I used to, right? And and and I still move forward with my life and I still try to make best decisions I can, and but it doesn't mean that I I don't miss him or what was supposed to be there from time to time, right? And I think that realizing that because this didn't most of us this did not end, or most most of the most of the guys, sorry, most of the guys that I that are in our group had what I would say good to great to amazing love stories to share. And I'm sure that's through a lens of also remembrance, right?

SPEAKER_01: 51:53

Like nothing is perfect, no one is perfect, but right, and so then you take that you should see some of the shit that I read in the journal. Like talk about talk about guilt, like you're just like, oh, oh, yeah, I made her feel that bad.

Matt: 52:08

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 52:10

And you're like, damn it.

Matt: 52:12

Oh, what's interesting is is I I wonder, do you now that you're so now that you're where you are, and I'm wondering how you're gonna answer this question.

SPEAKER_02: 52:26

I think I know, but I'm just gonna ask anyway. Do you think you'll start to forget the end?

SPEAKER_03: 52:34

Uh in a word, no.

SPEAKER_02: 52:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 52:38

Um yeah, like honestly, I think the way it is is that you can like I I honestly think I don't think I go through 24 hours without a thinking of her. For sure. Every day. Um but I think the memories, the the the things that trigger in your brain, um they don't evoke such an emotional response. It's almost like it is true, like you almost bring on this sort of like, oh, like a almost like a reminiscent response with it's sort of mixed, like happy, a little bit of melancholy, but it it doesn't be it's not like the killer, you know, you know, basically, I'm not gonna say negative, but sad, you know, where it's like, you know, you've got that feeling. It's it's more of a I'm cool with that memory. I you know, I'm glad I'm still having these memories. I'm glad I can look at that coffee cup in the cupboard every morning when I wake up and I remember that was her favorite cup.

Matt: 53:50

So what's interesting is you're describing something that I've been trying to figure out how to articulate it, and I found a quote and I was trying to find it, so I'm not gonna do it right now. Basically, it has to do with like your emotions are a response through the lens of a mindset. Right. I've always struggled with this idea of like when people say the word to me, you choose to be happy. And I'm like, I didn't choose to wake up this morning and not drown puppy dogs. Like, that's not a it's a default, it's not a because the mindset is I'm a kind person that doesn't kill dogs, therefore I choose not to. So what I think you're describing, right? And I know I want that's a way extreme example, but I really when I hear people say, like, you need to choose happiness. No, you need to start to work on to be able to accept the mindset and perspective that it's okay. Right? Like you just you just described, I'm now able to look at that coffee cup rather than from the mindset of being sad and being lonely and missing my wife. I'm now looking at it through the lens of more of a caring, endearing, um, you still a little bit of, like you said, melancholy or sadness that they're not there, but it doesn't invoke this massive amount of sadness. Instead, you're like, it's it's funny you mentioned coffee cups because the other day someone used a coffee cup that I would have three years ago lost my mind had they touched it. Right. And now I'm like, oh man, remember when we went to the masters?

SPEAKER_01: 55:21

That was a really good trip.

Matt: 55:22

Yeah, man. It was that fun, right?

SPEAKER_01: 55:25

And then, and then that's the other thing too, is that is that you when you when you have that, and I remember this because uh one of the guys that I listened to, like I know I love listening to some of the motivational, like the motivational gurus that are out there um for workouts and for things like that. And it is it is so true. I mean, it is a bit of a mantra for a lot of them, but you you need to become a master of your emotion. And it and it doesn't mean that you don't have emotion, that's not what I'm saying, is that you need to be able to feel those emotions, but also not to be scared of them, because I think a lot of guys are fearful of the emotions that like roar up inside, and then that's the thing, you don't know how to deal with it, you just you don't want it to come out, and so you push it down, you push it down, you don't wanna you don't want to show that you're you know you're upset, you don't want to cry, especially in front of your kids. Like I get that 100%, but you need to become almost like you know, the old Navy SEAL thing, you need to become comfortable being uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02: 56:38

Yep.

Matt: 56:40

Well, I love I love the other I love the development. You want to know where you know where change happens in growth? Yeah when you're uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01: 56:48

When you're uncomfortable and when you're going through trials, tribulations. True of anything.

Matt: 56:52

I mean, the first time you tried to do algebra was uncomfortable. Guess what happened at the end of it? You learned algebra, it was uncomfortable, you went through the change and you learned it. So it's just a it's a fascinating. So as you were in those, like those two little pillars, was would there be anything else in there that you would have added early on that you're like, wow, that really was able to get me to the point to asking the question of what now I want to find someone to love and what is that? And then we we can uh earmark that for another time, but like, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01: 57:21

Exactly. And I think that's I think that's what you need to do is is you you you ask yourself that question, you're like, what do I want? If that's what you know your dream is, is to have a a partner again and and in a loving relationship and you want to move forward on that, well then my first thing was like I didn't sort of just like you alluded to, I didn't sort of like, oh, I gotta go start dating. I was more well what do I still have to do with myself first? Like I I haven't dated in a long time. So and I'm carrying uh all of this stuff, like you know, and you do have those little voices inside your head going, you know, you're a widower, you're you've got two kids, who the hell is gonna want to hitch their wagon to you? Like, you know, that's a lot of baggage, man. Like and then you you basically tell that voice to shut the hell up and you'd be like, no, I'm worth it. I am worth whatever I think I'm worth. And if and if that's your problem, if you don't think you're worth it, well then I think that's your starting point. Because then you're like, what do I need to do to change my uh own outlook on myself so that I feel that I'm worth it? Because let me tell you, a woman will smell you out faster than anything in their life if you're not confident because you don't think like that that it'll be game over. You're not even gonna attract the right people that you want to attract because you're not in that mind frame of your best self.

Matt: 59:00

Right. So I so I think what's interesting on that one point, I think what guys, and I'm talking to myself on this, need to be able to accept two things. One, and I mentioned it earlier, I don't know if we're recording it, like I don't do well with like celebrating small wins. I don't know why, I just don't. Like, I'm like, whatever, it doesn't matter, I've still got to get to the goal. And I'm trying to learn to do a better job of that. The other thing, so like keep taking small congratulations. Like, I think most of the guys in our dad group, if we said, you know, you're doing a really good job of being a dad, and we'd all kind of go like, whatever, it's a low bar, right? I think most of us kind of go like I could do better. Um and I think that we should stop doing that. And I'm again talking to myself and go, Yeah, I'm doing a damn bang up job, right? And then I think the second part to that, and I had I had a date, and I will give her all the credit in the world. I was doing some self-deprecating humor. And she put her drink down and she goes, So you think that I think or you think that I would date somebody that talks about the way you're talking about yourself, that I would date someone like that? And I was like, oh, whoops.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:18

So I'm taking that, this is years ago, and going, you know what, gentlemen? Your wife would choose to date you.

Matt: 1:00:27

And if you loved her and respected her as much as I think most of us loved and respected our wives, you're a pretty awesome person. So why wouldn't someone if your wife wanted you, who, in my opinion, was way outside of my league, why wouldn't another one? Right? Like, and women also, if you're comfortable with it and authentic with it, I think the third part is knowing the trial and tribulation we've been through to come out still standing and having and and having small humans still be alive after all of this.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:03

Exactly.

Matt: 1:01:04

We're doing pretty good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:07

Yeah, and that's what I found out, Matt.

Matt: 1:01:08

Like I just I so just everyone knows, I just blew my shoulder out, patting ourselves on the back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:15

And and and you know what? Like that's true. Like you have to you when you do go through um, you know, when you put yourself through those things that you need to change and and or uh deal with, meaning let yourself be vulnerable, let yourself feel you know the grief that you need to feel. Let yourself have the time that you need on your own. Like you need that time away from the kids to just decompress, whatever it is, work out, be with your buddies, go away on a weekend at the cottage or the you know, whatever you gotta do.

Matt: 1:01:55

What do you what do you think about what do you think about this idea when you said work on yourself? If you wrote a list down, like say prior, because you're wonderful now. If you wrote a list down of things you didn't that you didn't like about yourself, and then you try to bounce it off what your wife would say, I wonder how many of those would still be true. You know what I mean? Like, like like if I was like, if I said I need to lose weight, my wife would probably be like, I still love you, but being healthy would be better, right? Um, but if I wrote something like, My life's a complete disaster, I can't keep anything organized, my wife would be like, Yeah, that's why I'm your partner because I organize and that's not it's not a deal, it's not a sh it's not a deal breaker. I wonder how many of those would go away. I wonder how many of those would go away.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:40

Here's one for you, because I did I did obviously have the advantage of reading all those journals and and finding out you know exactly how he felt about some of the behaviors that I had developed around that. Like I watch way less sports, I don't stay up to watch SportsCenter and do like the end of the night thing. Like I I have a nice little man cake down here. I would do that, I would get sucked, I'd watch the Sports Center, I'd get sucked into something else, and I wouldn't come to bed. Like she would be going to bed on her own because you know she was and writing in her journal before that, basically saying how pissed she was of a meeting.

Matt: 1:03:23

You're gonna say, wow, that pen gout pressed real hard right here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:26

Yeah, like I'm downstairs again, you know, watching TV, and because that's the thing, we don't have TV in our we never. I I we have one TV. I mean, like I have one TV in my basement, that's it. Um but that's that really opened my eyes going through that process. Like, and Julia is the beneficial beneficiary to that, you know. Like she I don't I don't do that when it's time like we but I admit that uh Julia is a special person and that she loves uh watching series and TVs and stuff on like we watched a lot of different series and we'll watch it on the laptop in bed together. And then but when it's like 10 30 quarter to 11, she's like, okay, it's uh bedtime, like it doesn't matter, right? You know, like yep and we both go to bed together. And I think that uh that is something I learned.

Matt: 1:04:22

I that's another interesting one of like the appreciation, right? Like I there are definitely things that um when I am in a relationship again, there are definitely things that I do a much more intentional job of because I think I did a pretty good job of them before, but I don't ever want to have what I have right now, which is a slight twinge of doubt or regret that I didn't do more of it in my memory.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:56

Right.

Matt: 1:04:57

That makes sense. Like I don't ever want to look back at a relationship again and go, did they know did I do enough? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:06

Yeah, 100%.

Matt: 1:05:07

And I and I've had plenty of people tell me that's not the case, but it's just that like, well, I could have done one less of playing a silly video game at the end of a day, right? Or watching Sports Center or whatever it might be. Which is fascinating, right? Like the people we love the most, they teach us that lesson by dying.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:25

And it's like, and it's almost like yeah, and in my case, it's like you get a do-over, right? You get a tiny bit of a of a of a little pearl that's been left behind to be like, hey, do you want to be a little bit better? This is this is something you can do. And and that's and that's and that's the thing. Like when I I knew that, and and like guys, and I just want to say this to everyone, I didn't start dating feeling like I was a hundred percent ready for dating. No way do you feel that way. And we've talked about this too, I think on a couple other podcasts when we were talking about the dating stuff. I just knew I was at a point where I knew what I wanted outweighed everything else. So I was ready. That's how I guess I knew I was ready. Say that again.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:13

Say that say that again.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:15

I knew that what I wanted, the goal that I had, outweighed everything else, including the grief I was carrying, including you know, I didn't have this this like over, you know, propensity to be loathing or or you know, be in this sort of grief bubble, or or you know, all those kind of I knew when when that became the biggest thing, then I I was like, okay, even though I'm carrying all this other stuff, I knew that I was ready to start dating. And that's sort of how I wanted to move forward. And I knew that the process then would only help with that. Like it was gonna come out, and yeah, for sure, the first first woman I dated seriously, like there were t there were times where I, you know, totally had to be honest with her, how I was feeling, and how I was, you know, emotionally still, you know, involved in some grief and the things that I was taking and carrying with me and and moving forward and stuff like that. But you know, it's all part of that process. That's all I'm saying, is that you're never gonna be a hundred percent, you know, on solid ground and being like, yep, I'm totally ready.

Matt: 1:07:31

And uh a little bit like you're saying, like it's the most important thing, and so that's gonna get done. And I when you're at the crossroads of taking care of your kiddos, at some point, that little whisper in the back of your head as a solo dad that says they might be just a little better off if there was a second human in this equation, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:58

And I was gonna segue.

Matt: 1:07:59

And that voice gets a little louder and a little louder. And I was just sharing with someone the other day about like, and I think you you and I talked about it one time. I did something with Blair, and you're like, your voice changed. You went from like dad to softer dad, and I was like, Well, I have a daughter, it's different. But I purposely, when I'm like rubbing her back or I'm doing something every now and then, I go, and I think I've shared this before, I dial my touch back by about 30%. I go softer because I'm like a mom would have a different touch than this big dad clumsy hand thing, right? But like as that whisper of someone should take over, like, because I think guys, solo dads do a very good job of, and I remember I posted this in the group one through three priorities, your bottom three. I posted, so I'm gonna let everybody know. I posted that exact same question in single dad and divorced dad groups because I stock dads, um, and and the answers are very, very different. Almost in the single and the other dad groups, relationship escalates to the one either the top three for sure, if it's not the one and two. So either finding a new relationship or their wife relationships one, two.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:11

Right.

Matt: 1:09:11

We don't even put a relationship in the top three. Not a single guy that answered that question put finding or creating a new relationship in the top three.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:24

Right.

Matt: 1:09:25

Because no one's gonna monish you for taking care of your kids, taking care of your health, and doing your job. Right? But if you so that's why I left it to three, because I figured if I said four, we might be able to sneak it in there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:35

But but I I think we've been talking around it, but I think honestly, if we're in the right mindset for creating a relationship, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about, you know, we're not talking about hinge, I guess tender, right?

Matt: 1:09:49

I guess.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:50

We're talking about I'm looking for a partner. If you're in, if you want that and you're in, you're gonna work towards that, when you get to that point where you're like, yep, that's that is the main goal, I think that's that is going to just like you said, benefit your kids. It's gonna benefit you, it's gonna benefit your kids, it's gonna even even involving them in the process, I think is gonna help them process that, oh, dad is now considering dating. Oh, dad is now we dat we just watched Mary Poppins.

Matt: 1:10:27

Remember, the kids wrote the advertisement, as they'd say in the show. Right. And I actually have asked Blair a few times, just kind of off-handedly, like, well, if you had someone special in our life, would and I love the fact that one of the first things she always says is that she would be kind. I'm like, ugh, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:43

Kindness is kindness is nice, it's pretty cute.

Matt: 1:10:47

No one is going to walk up to a solo parent, more or less even solo dads, and ever tell them you have those top three wrong. That it's it's uh my health, my kids, my job. No one's ever gonna do that because they look really good, right? Right. But I'm now starting to think like, no, man, your kids, it's the whole air mass thing, right? If you're in an airplane, and it and I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of who eats first, there's that whole conversation, right? We've talked about that before for a moment, but like, like if you're not okay, like your kids aren't gonna be okay. And if at some point, like if you knew in your last relationship that you were the as close to the best hum version of your human person you could be with your late person, why would you ever think that you couldn't repeat that again?

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:35

Right. True, and it but then it comes down to that mindset, right? Like, so I'm I'm talking about goal setting and and how that can change your mindset. But then at the same time, when you have that goal and you're committed to it, and and you're right, like that's a really good point because nobody's ever gonna call you on it. You know, the only person that's gonna be in like basically the only person that's gonna stand in your way is you. You you are the barrier to you. You have to make the choice, and you are you are the one that's the barrier. So the minute that you can also come to terms with that and be honest about it, and then be like, yeah, I am the one that is going to stop that. And well, what what what is that barrier?

Matt: 1:12:30

Well, there you know, I love you the home the the great and wonderful philosopher H. Simpson, also known as Homer Simpson, has a wonderful, wonderful phrase, which is you want to know the best way not to fail is never try. You want to know the best way never to go on a date? Don't even don't even try. So I but and what I'm trying to say is like if if guys were in a spot of saying, like, you know, my health, my job, and finding a new relationship, and kids came four. That's why I picked three. I picked three on purpose. If finding a new relationship percolated to the top three, well, once you're in the relationship and it's going well, the kids can percolate back up to number three and number four, and your relationship can go, you know, you can then we can talk about a normal life because I feel like when my life was alive, you know, obviously when we had the kid, the the new kid percolates up to the top, but our relationship was always in the top three, like spending time with each other, checking in on each other, you know, every now and then, like, hey, I got to spend time with my wife, and I'm not gonna work that overtime and take care of that project right now. I'm gonna do this and go on, you know, hang out with my wife. But it's interesting because the exact same question got very different answers in in other dad groups. It's it's a I even did one, I'm in a bandit, if you like blue, I'm in a bandit dad grouping because they're very fun and very relaxed. And it was very much like my wife, my health, my job with my kids, like their wives showed up in the top three so much. And I'm thinking to myself, as solo dads, we're not even putting a new relationship anywhere in there. And we really should at some point, and I'm not pressuring anyone too, but I just it was an interesting reflection on like where we where the group can be at as a whole. It's very actually, and you know what? I think I need to go look at the responses. I'm starting, and I'm not going to right now because I want to stay focused on the conversation. I do think one guy did uh who's recently engaged, and he his top three was like the relationship or something like that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:22

Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

Matt: 1:14:24

Yeah, but like kind of like you were saying, like they when you're ready and you've taken care of some stuff. I think that now that you're engaged, I'm sure that the new relationship's still in the top four, but it probably had we've been talking nine months ago, dating would have probably been in the top three. It probably the top three priorities at at any given time. You know, not saying that your kids fall off of that necessarily, but I just found it an interesting way to be like, this is a fascinating dichotomy when you've got a bunch of divorced guys running around trying to find dates, and you got a bunch of solo dads going like, well, I'm just gonna work and take care of my kids and work on my NFL fantasy draft.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:06

I know, I was just gonna say, when you do when you do get into that, because then you're right, like it is sort of significant that you're talking about both, but and I know we we need to probably wrap this up um soon, but just on that note, when you do dive into that pool and you are mixed in with the divorced ads and the widowers, and there's not a lot of us compared to the divorced dads, like in the dating world, especially in the 40 plus game. Um when the word gets out, like you know, widower, soul of dad guys, like you have remember Seinfeld, you have hand, you have hand because you you automatically have you are dependable, you're taking care of your household, you are like a planner. You've you know you've learned if you weren't a planner, you're a planner now.

Matt: 1:16:03

Well, I love one of one of the guys. Well, one of the guys says all the time when like you know, someone asks, like, well, and he's a really good well, we have plenty of really good dads, but one of the phrases he always hears when people are like, Well, you know, you're so an amazing dad, and you're doing this. How are you single? And they're like, he I think his answer is like, Well, she she died. Like, it's just like he goes, I'm not single by choice, right? Like deadpan, right? Just deadpan.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:28

Like, hey, and then as soon as, as soon as the word gets out on that, like it's almost like it is, it's like you become very popular. Like, honestly, there's not a lot of things that I could think in the dating world now that I know about the online dating world, give you kind of a more of an upper and over other guys.

Matt: 1:16:53

I I yes, and I think I think to kind of put a pin in this conversation and kind of tie it all back together, I'm glad that you kind of pointed out that you handled to a point, because I don't want to say you're done with it. I mean, you and I both know that, and I think people listening know that you're not done with grief, but you took care of a chunk of it that put you in a place or laid a foundation of a place for you to then to ask that very important question of, well, what's next for me and what does it look like? And the answer you came for yourself was, Well, I want to I want to find someone to love again. And then all those other things that are wonderful about loving somebody and having a family and another partner and a and uh you know with the kid, with the boys and et cetera. All all the all the other things happen when you fall in love with somebody, right? It wasn't I'm trying to find a mom for my boys, it's right, and that's what that and but you would I don't and I think you would agree, you would not have been able to ask yourself that question without probably doing those two things and maybe a couple others, um and jumping into the dating world. There we go. So it's trying to get to it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Matt: 1:18:03

So I think that's a I think that's a pretty important um tip for anybody that's listening, that at some point you might have to take a little bit of time and do a little bit of work in the lost space, whatever that means to you, whether, and I'll just go way over simplification, that means getting finally tackling the closet. And we're not talking two weeks out here, gentlemen. We're talking you give yourself a little bit of time, but whatever it means for you and tackling some of that stuff and kind of being done with parts of it, of of of handling the grief. And then I really do think there is something about you're gonna have to process and deal with some of your emotions, and somewhere in there, I think should be something physical. I really believe that. Whether it's a walk, whether it's a bike ride, whether it's a heavy bag, whether it's you love CrossFit, whatever it is, there's something where you got to get your body involved because then I think it just allows a different access to some emotions for us guys. Um, well, hey man, is there anything else you want to briefly bring up?

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:08

Um no, like I mean, I think we covered a lot tonight.

Matt: 1:19:12

I think we did. I think we really did. Um, and uh uh we will try, and I do, and I appreciate this. I think we will try to have um a couple of different guests on at the same time, and then have you and and Ben on as well just to kind of mix it up. And um that's cool. I mean, I always appreciate your time. You're solo dad, so I always want to say I say thank you. Uh and any anything last thing, anything before we shut this thing down?

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:47

Um no, just uh, you know, again, shout out to all you guys out there listening, and um and you know, if and and I just encourage, I know what's happened, but just pass it on, like you know. Facebook page, the you know, whatever you need to keep people aware and and just keep people I think knowledge is power, like obviously, and and I think the more people realize that they're not alone and there's all of this happening uh under the surface for a lot of people, I think that is one of the first steps to to really dealing with um with your grief and and with uh you know carving out that light new light for you as we we the new normal as the the talk as buzzwords go.

Matt: 1:20:34

As buzzwords go. But I want to also as I said in the beginning, and I I don't know why, but recently I've just been really, really struck with being humbled and honored to what I thought and what I felt and what I believe was needed has been received. And I just every time I get on uh a call with a new guest, not new to solo dad necessarily, but new guest, there's some point of their journey in their story where I'm like, I can't believe that I get to sit here and witness dad's doing quite possibly one of the most difficult things that I'll ever have to do. And it just really it just I'm really just honored. I really am. And so I want to thank everybody uh that's given the the compliments and the feedback and how it's helping them, but I also want to make sure that I thank everybody who yourself included, uh Ken, um, that gets on here and um trusts me to have these conversations and to share their stories um because it's not easy. And there's usually at least one moment every sh every time I talk to, especially not like a catch-up shot with you and Ben, but like it just brings me straight to right back to some emotional moment. So I want to thank every all the guys and the dads for doing that. And um, I have a new tagline that I'm gonna go ahead and keep using uh for now because one of my friends said it was pretty good. So for all you solo dads out there, man, just keep on dadding and I appreciate you guys listening. Thanks so much. Thanks again. Be well, buddy.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:20

Yeah, me too.